Military Review

"The Battle of the Ice" in images and paintings

307
"The Battle of the Ice" in images and paintings

HELL. Kivshenko. "Prince Alexander hurts Jarl Birger", 1888. Well, what can you say? There is no living place in this picture from the point of view of historical realism. Not a single one! It was necessary to be able to do so ... And he also painted The Council at Fili ...


Then Prince Alexander spoke
and with him many others
Russians from Suzdal.
They had countless onions,
a lot of beautiful armor.
Their banners were rich
their helmets radiated light.
Elder Livonian Rhymed Chronicle


Art and история. "And where is the" Slaughter "? Such came to me from readers of "VO" after the publication of the material about the Battle of Kulikovo in images and paintings. And with “The Slaughter” it was like this: there was a time when it was very reluctant to write it. Then, on the contrary, unless the lazy did not write it. So to give an analysis to all the pictures in which it is depicted is simply physically impossible. But the topic is certainly very interesting, so it's time to consider it. But we will have to start ... again, from the newspaper Pravda, which on April 5, 1942, that is, just in time for the anniversary, published an article devoted to this event. Another material, even with a picture, was published by the Moscow Bolshevik newspaper.


An editorial from Pravda on April 5, 1942. Please note that the text does not mention the drowning of knights in the lake. And why? Yes, because this is not in the earliest and most authentic annalistic texts. So the Pravda reporters compiled “truthful” material that no historian could have found fault with, neither ours nor foreign, because Pravda always writes ... the truth!


An article in the newspaper Moscow Bolshevik. But the newspaper "Moscow Bolsheviks" no one in the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks could not forbid fantasies, and the journalists "dragged on" it completely! And in the picture there are both armor and horns - in a word, a complete gentlemanly set of “chained knights”, who in the end, of course, are drowning!

By this time, Eisenstein's film “Alexander Nevsky” was already everywhere on the screens of the USSR, which was first released, then, after August 23, 1939, was removed from the box and put on a shelf, but after June 22, 1941 it was again released, though and not right away, but only after the words of Stalin that we must equal our heroic ancestors in the struggle against the enemies of our Motherland.


N.K. Roerich. “Alexander strikes with the spear of Jarl Birger,” 1904 Actually, at first, they somehow even more often painted Prince Alexander, “who placed the seal on Birger’s face with a spear”. So N. Roerich paid tribute to this plot and in his decorative manner wrote ... a purely decorative picture. It is interesting that Alexander holds a spear with two hands on it, "in Sarmatian style", which in 1240 was not practiced for at least 500 years


His second painting, The Russian War, on the same subject, but written in 1942, is equally decorative and exotic.

Well, then the paintings on this epic topic fell like a cornucopia. And it’s clear why ...

V. A. Serov painted two paintings. The first is the battle itself and the second: "The entrance of Alexander Nevsky to Pskov after the Battle of the Ice." It is interesting that the latter somehow has something in common ... with the "Boyar Morozova." And here we, in fact, have nothing to look for. There is a prince, captive Germans have stirrups, people are present and rejoicing ... There is nothing to complain about.

But where is the battle ...


“Entrance of Alexander Nevsky to Pskov after the Battle of Ice” by V. A. Serov


"Battle on the Ice". V.A. Serov, 1942. Here, of course, everything is more interesting. We will not talk about faces, postures - they are “full of anger and determination”, as it should be. But this is probably the first time that the artist has drawn helmets ... from the movie. Yes, look at the “miracle man” in the center of the canvas, with a round shield and a sword. On his head he has a “helmet" exactly the same from the movie "Alexander Nevsky". Topfhelm with horns is also lying around, well, how could it be without them. And so I would like to ask: in which of the branches of Mostorg, which sells hardware, the author looked at the ax in the guy’s hand in a sheepskin coat, with which he chopped a German in the snow? Well after all Armory the chamber in Moscow, the State Historical Museum in Moscow, and the difference between the battle axes and the workers that were in use in the XNUMXth century was already known. But no, he did not bother with all this. The simpler the better!

That is, this began, and then the examples of glaring negligence, completely unworthy of domestic history, began to multiply and multiply, and multiply. Here, for example, the artist Dmitry Kostylev. And he graduated, and a member of prestigious unions, and went to the open air to France ... In a word, master. He writes to himself: “Creativity for me is an attempt to find answers to the eternal questions of human existence ... And appeal to worthy and strong personalities of the past and the present - such as St. Peter, Metropolitan of Moscow or Peter I, the Russian Emperor, and others, comes from the desire to come closer to this goal on the examples of their lives ... ”Wonderful! And this is how it is decided in color ...


The prince is written out as it should. Eagle prince (figure on the left), of course. But what skill did the artist lack for his opponent? What is this helmet on him? Worn on the head of microcephalus, not otherwise? But there is also hair and a balaclava ... And then there are horns in the form of a lyre ... Well, after all, it’s known that the knights of St. Mary Teutonic had the charter of the Templars and they were forbidden to decorate their weapons (including helmets), and even more so to cling to them the horns of the unclean! The Livonian Chronicle says: “brothers in rich helmets,” that is, gilded, because this signifies gilding and wealth, and protects from rust. The shoulder ... and the back are clearly armor. But what armor in 1242? And by the way, where does the hand go further from the shoulder, or did it cut off with its shield? No hands, but an artist! And after all, when he draws naked girls, then everything is in place



The "Battle" of the work of V. M. Nazaruk. Here again, one continuous epic. And actually, the name "Flood" would have been much more suitable for her!


The “Slaughter” of Prisekin S. N.

Here we see, directly, a riot of the author’s limitless imagination. We start from left to right and already have a long laugh. First of all, an archer in a cuirass and bourguignot helmet, that is, in armor somewhere in the middle of the 1242th century. Here again, a bunch of helmets from Nevsky ..., and the crossbowman stands in plain sight and turns the Nuremberg collar, which also had not been invented in XNUMX. Prince Alexander lost his helmet somewhere, but didn’t abandon the battle, well, it happens, but it’s different: a man in an underwear shirt with a three-piece pitchfork. And the Germans, and with halberds, are one another more wonderful. It can be seen from the Swiss mercenaries borrowed after the battle of Zempach. And those then were easier. And those here, in the picture, are already the XVII century, no less! Well, in the foreground, of course, who? A man in bast shoes! But bast shoes were the working shoes of peasants, and summer ones. On the history of the distribution of bast shoes in Russia, there is a rich historiography and a whole range of opinions, often mutually opposed. It is also known that the best was put on the war in order to impress the enemy. So although there is no unanimous opinion about bast shoes, I would not begin to draw the foreman in the foreground. What a strange desire to stick out our modesty? What for? He would have put some goat leather props on him. Did they do such then? And the picture would not get worse from this!


The painting by V.V. Matorin surprises others. A mass of infantry in white ... And where are the riders? It is said: the brothers went “pig”. But this is a cavalry system. Or the infantrymen of the order, dressed in chain mail, fled so briskly that they were on the line of contact at the same time as the riders?


The painting by A. I. Borisov is made in the best traditions of the worst socialist realism. All knights in armor of the XNUMXth century and the infantry rushing, putting forward halberds

In the 90s, many battle paintings were painted by the artist Igor Dzys. And among his works there is also a “Slaughter”. And this work of his (see below) is a great example of what an artist can do, who, firstly, knows how to draw, and secondly, knows the historical realities, that is, the material component of culture, the statutes of knightly orders, and most importantly - understands the difference between single and mass. And on this canvas of his there is a single, and mass, and corresponding to the era, and which can correspond - in a word, this is perhaps the only work that can be set by other artists as an example.


Painting I. Dzysya


But the artist E. Emelyanov worked on his large-scale canvas for almost 10 years. And in this he came out with a huge diorama, exhibited by him at the Artillery Museum in St. Petersburg. And everything seems to be fine: the order flag with three plaits, and the knights, as if from the Osprey publication, are recognizable, but ... anyway, the ice breaks, the knights drown - and where? In the lake, where a sparrow knee-deep! For 10 years, one could already find the answer to this "sore question" of our time ...


The work of D. Gordeev

If you look at his blog, then individually the soldiers will look very good. But in the picture we see that both the knights and our warriors use spears quite incorrectly. So they used the "Tapestry from Bayeux." But then, the dominant technique was the caching of the spear (that is, when it is clamped under the arm!), Because the spears themselves became longer! And for some reason they all belong to the order of the Dobrzynski brothers. Maybe their battle with Daniel Galitsky, who defeated them in 1237, is shown here? Because on Lake Peipsi, the knights were with black crosses. Well, why did a knight in a horned helmet bow his head so "violently"? In order not to see anything in the helmet slit? That is, it is not enough to know who was dressed at the time. We must also have an idea of ​​tactics and not interfere with cavalry and infantry in the forefront!


And here is the creation of A. Yezhov (2009)

By this time, as they say, well, everything, everything became known, everything is there, the Internet is working - take and write. Or ... draw. So no! We look at "it" carefully. God be with him, with a knight that crawls out of the hole. But you see how Prince Alexander, being on a horse somewhat behind the German knight in the center, nevertheless manages to hit him with a spear in the chest! Well, it doesn’t happen and it wasn’t necessary to draw like that! And he painted, saw that he was mistaken, so it was possible and necessary to redraw, and not make people laugh who are looking at such "revelations" of our "artists"!


But this is the metro in St. Petersburg. Mosaic "Battle of the Ice" at the metro station "Alexander Nevsky Square." And for the mosaic panel is very good. It is not clear why the order’s cross is red and not black, and how the rider swings his sword with his two hands at his opponent, and so ... nothing at all. Well, why are the Germans horns? Tea, not a cow ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Kulikovo battle in images and paintings
“The Battle of Angiari” and “The Battle of Marciano”: student versus teacher, symbolism versus realism
“The Battle of Angiari” and “The Battle of Marciano”. Leonardo da Vinci and Giorgio Vasari
Pavel Korin. "Alexander Nevskiy". The insoluble task of a restless soul
“The Battle of Grunwald” by Jan Matejko: when there is too much epic
"Heroes" Vasnetsov: when the main epic in the picture
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather 2 May 2020 05: 33 New
    -12
    the whole history is written for the sake of the current government, and descendants are taken at face value.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 06: 46 New
      25
      Quote: Dead Day
      the whole history is written for the sake of the current government, and descendants are taken at face value.

      That is, goring Berger’s spear on the canvas “Battle of the Ice” instead of the “Neva Battle” is not a “historical blunder” of the artist, but a deflection in front of those in power?
      Regards, Kote!
      1. kalibr
        2 May 2020 06: 52 New
        +4
        Well, he wrote NEVSKAYA BATTLE that’s understandable. It was necessary to emphasize this. But he did not draw the MORTGAGE, as such ...
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 07: 24 New
          +6
          I'm jerking, Vyacheslav Olegovich !!!
        2. Barmaleyka
          Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 07: 30 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          But he did not draw the MORTGAGE, as such ...

          so if you undertook to criticize artists, you should know that paintings do not draw
          1. kalibr
            2 May 2020 07: 50 New
            +7
            Quote: Barmaleyka
            But he did not draw the MORTGAGE, as such ...

            so if you undertook to criticize artists, you should know that paintings do not draw

            In the comments, Vladimir, they only write if it were clear ... You did understand what it was about? Well, that's nice!
            1. igordok
              igordok 2 May 2020 08: 22 New
              +9
              I will add one more picture. Gabriel Gorelov "Leading the knight-dogs to Pskov"

              About horns on helmets. There is even one "unicorn" on the top right.


              I will not say anything about a number of stone towers in Pskov.
            2. Barmaleyka
              Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 08: 23 New
              -2
              Quote: kalibr
              In the comments, Vladimir, they only wrote if it were clear ...

              ooooo
              that is, if only it were clear, that is, you can write as YOU see, but the artist cannot
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 08: 58 New
            11
            Quote: Barmaleyka
            Quote: kalibr
            But he did not draw the MORTGAGE, as such ...

            so if you undertook to criticize artists, you should know that paintings do not draw

            Yeah! Ships go, g .... swims !!! laughing and cats in general only on the roofs scream and only in March !!!
            winked
            Professional slang, it’s worth a lot, I smile at the legal fabrications of the neophytes, but I will laugh at the shoemaker !!!
            For example, the word "epps" (admins - the word is not swearing). When I asked what this means, the old master screwed up his eyes and said, “Go on and continue to write your scribbles - green.” Dratva even know what? Eh ... the shoe will tear come back, two weeks warranty ”!!!
            belay this is how I live, what is "epps" and I don’t know !!!
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 2 May 2020 17: 31 New
              +5
              Hello, hello! Cats scream not only in March and not always on roofs, but roofs are preferable, especially those that cover. For example, I, my previous cat named Bormann, covered with a pneumatic magazine from a whole codla of local cats.
              As for terminology, I’m ready to kill when the trigger is called the trigger. So Vladimir, in my opinion, is absolutely right.
              Back to the cats and the roofs, my friend, Kitty smile :
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 18: 42 New
                +5
                So you have a master with pneumatics and your cat’s mustache !!! laughingwhere is the love? Well, or an honest scuffle for the lady of the heart on the ledge !!!
                One question? And how did you distinguish cats from the ladies of your Bormann heart? !!!? Well, if they are a herd on your cracker, and you ...
                drinks love soldier
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 2 May 2020 18: 54 New
                  +7
                  I don't get into cat love, but when my cat sits on an apple tree, and a whole bunch of his fellows are howling around, there are no questions. So, I can very easily distinguish between cat and cat roulades, especially by the "sexual saturation" of the ora. At that time I had only one concern, not to shoot the "reptiles" seriously. But when everything was over and the gang was gone, Martin ran next to me and sniffed the rifle barrel with great attention. By the way, after that he stopped responding to shots from a double-barreled gun, he simply did not pay attention, only his ears turned around. With my current Lucky, such a situation has not yet happened. drinks smile
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 2 May 2020 07: 29 New
      +4
      Quote: Dead Day
      the whole history is written for the sake of the current government, and descendants are taken at face value.

      What does your statement have to do with the article? request

      Thanks to the author for the given panels dedicated to the Battle of the Ice: a very interesting selection turned out!

      As for the detailed showdown of discrepancies in the weapons depicted by the artists with the real weapons of those years, this does not bother me at all. for it is not for this that pictures are painted.

      All that the artists wanted to express, they said (with varying degrees of skill) about the feat and heroism of the Russian people in defending the Fatherland.

      And they, in my opinion, did it! and there is no need to require photographic accuracy of details.

      The impressionists, for example, do not have it at all. but the pictures are beautiful!

      one would like to ask: in which branch of Mostorg, which sells hardware, did the author look at that ax in the guy’s hand in a sheepskin coat, with which he chopped a German in the snow? Well, the Armory Chamber in Moscow, the State Historical Museum in Moscow, and the difference between the battle axes and the workers that were in use in the XNUMXth century was already known.

      What kind of battle ax can a militia who is clearly depicted by the author have? What works, so it fights ....
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 2 May 2020 07: 46 New
        11
        Quote: Olgovich
        about the feat and heroism of the Russian people in the defense of the Fatherland.

        Today -great day in the history of our country- 75 years of the fall of BERLIN ! Hooray!yes

        Happy holiday to all!

        Thanks to our ancestors who accomplished this feat, as well as the feat in the mentioned massacre and thousands of other battles. Thanks to them, Russia is alive!

        Sorry. that in there is no article for this anniversary ...
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 08: 07 New
          +8
          Moscow. May 2. INTERFAX.RU - New declassified documents on the capture of Berlin by the Soviet army in 1945, published by the Russian Ministry of Defense, the agency said.
          What have they been waiting for so long ???
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 27 New
            +1
            They counted the days when it would be possible to remove the "declassified in 75 years" stamp, most likely.
      2. kalibr
        2 May 2020 08: 02 New
        10
        Quote: Olgovich
        What kind of battle ax can a militia have?

        Right. But at that time there were no working axes of this form. ALL forms of axes, both combat and non-combat, are known from archaeological finds.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 2 May 2020 19: 24 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          ALL forms of axes, both combat and non-combat, are known from archaeological finds.

          I would not be so categorical: we do not all know about centenary subjects. let alone ALL about 800-year-olds
          1. kalibr
            2 May 2020 19: 35 New
            +4
            Quote: Olgovich
            let alone ALL about 800-year-olds

            We know everything we found. Something that was not found or was not, or is not worth discussing.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 3 May 2020 11: 02 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              Togo, what was not found or was not

              who said that? belay lol
      3. Avior
        Avior 2 May 2020 09: 10 New
        +1
        He would have fought a lot with that hatchet .....
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 2 May 2020 11: 18 New
          -3
          Quote: Avior
          He would have fought a lot with that hatchet ....

          pitchforks, scythes, flails, slings-what they worked, so they fought ...
          1. cost
            cost 2 May 2020 12: 58 New
            +8
            The painting by V.V. Matorin surprises others. A mass of infantry in white ... And where are the riders

            The troops of the order not only consisted of equestrian knight brothers. I was different in this picture surprised. Image of the Virgin of Our Lady on the Banner. After all, the Battle of the Ice is 1242.
            During the capture of Vladimir by the army of Khan Batu in 1238, the Assumption Cathedral was plundered, the icon of the Mother of God was "torn down" and the frame was stripped from it. The Book of Degrees informs about the restoration of the Assumption Cathedral and the renewal of the icon by Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich in 1245 !!!
            And in general, according to A.I. Anisimov, the first mention of such a standard refers only to the 1471th century. In XNUMX, the Grand Duke Ivan III, going on a campaign against Novgorod, received it from the monks. - "They sewed the miraculous icon of the Holy Mother of God of Vladimirskaya onto the goddess with gold."
            1. cost
              cost 2 May 2020 13: 03 New
              +6

              In the XII century, the Vladimir Icon was the patroness of primarily the inhabitants of Vladimir, the shrine of Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky and his entourage. However, already in the “Tale of the Miracles of the Vladimir Icon of the Mother of God” of the second half of the XNUMXth century, the idea of ​​the protection of the Mother of God over Vladimir-Suzdal Rus and all Russian land is carried out.
              Later, the icon becomes the main shrine of Russia.
              According to tradition dating back to the XNUMXth century, Russian sovereigns were married to the kingdom of the Vladimir Icon. As the main Russian shrine, the icon participated in the election of the metropolitans and patriarchs: the sealed names of the elect (lots) were put in its icon case, after the prayer one of the lots was taken out, which was printed by the tsar and the name of the elect was announced to the people.
              Since September 1999, the Vladimir Icon has been in the temple-museum of St. Nicholas in the Tolmachy at the Tretyakov Gallery.
              Precious gold salaries for the icon, made in the late XIV - early XV centuries, in the first third of the XV century and in 1657, are exhibited in the Kremlin Armory.
            2. kalibr
              2 May 2020 16: 39 New
              +3
              Quote: Rich
              The troops of the order not only consisted of equestrian knight brothers

              Horsemen and Chud
        2. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 31 New
          +4
          Duc ... Google the maces along the domongol, they also do not really fight. Nevertheless - a mass product, even too much.

          Versions of use - from keeping behind the bootleg as a weapon of last chance, and - given that there are a bunch of treasures where they are in commodity quantities - are the monetary unit of their time.
    3. Bar1
      Bar1 2 May 2020 07: 40 New
      -5
      all these pictures are of no historical value and are intended only to propagate the existing version of history.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 09: 02 New
        +5
        Quote: Bar1
        all these pictures are of no historical value and are intended only to propagate the existing version of history.

        However, as Timur mentioned by you, Ermak in the Jewish minsurka with a spear !!!
        smile
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 2 May 2020 10: 11 New
          -7
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Quote: Bar1
          all these pictures are of no historical value and are intended only to propagate the existing version of history.

          However, as Timur mentioned by you, Ermak in the Jewish minsurka with a spear !!!
          smile

          comics take and study them history is your level.
          As for the portrait of Ermak, that is, this is a medieval image and therefore closer to reality than any other.
          And in the Jewish yarmulke you are of course.
    4. Gost2012
      Gost2012 2 May 2020 07: 43 New
      12
      Quote: Dead Day
      the whole history is written for the sake of the current government, and descendants are taken at face value.

      Can't bald without a comb laughing
      Here, the paintings are disassembled from the point of view of the parts and artifacts depicted, and their correspondence to historical data. They say about artists about the details pictures. What and what current authorities did not please you here? Or senility prevails?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 2 May 2020 13: 28 New
        +5
        Old age is not a joy. Grandfather says
    5. Ham
      Ham 3 May 2020 16: 01 New
      0
      reached out for yourself!
  2. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 2 May 2020 05: 40 New
    -2
    Each new government rewrites history in its interests in accordance with the goals to which it strives ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 06: 55 New
      14
      Quote: Dead Day
      the whole history is written for the sake of the current government, and descendants are taken at face value.

      Quote: sergo1914
      But each new government has its own buffoon, or shpak with a Polish surname.

      Quote: Pvi1206
      Each new government rewrites history in its interests in accordance with the goals to which it strives ...

      Well guys, well, you surprised !!!
      Oil painting. More precisely, iron oxide, with clay and ocher !!!
      10 years ago, under the vaults of the cave there is the Leader of the “Tum-Tum” conquering the valley of the Serga and Demid rivers and crying, where can I get a buffoon with the Polish name “Shpak” to perpetuate my victory !!! Before the first Poles appeared, there were still 000 centuries, buffoons - 89, and to Shpak - 88 !!! laughing
      After 10 years, Vasya’s loser, under the image of the leader of Tum-Tum (five sticks and a deer), scribbled his name with blue paint !!! Thus, rewriting the history of the hunting grounds of the leader !!!
  3. sergo1914
    sergo1914 2 May 2020 05: 47 New
    -6
    But each new government has its own buffoon, or shpak with a Polish surname.
    1. Pashhenko Nikolay
      Pashhenko Nikolay 2 May 2020 11: 05 New
      +8
      I don’t even understand why the buffoon? The author simply brought a view of the event of people of the last century, in the paintings, isn’t it interesting? He doesn’t seem to impose his opinion. You have the right to have your own. And these unclear associations with the nationalities of the surnames frankly warp.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 14: 20 New
        +6
        Oh, it’s a pity that our Vyacheslav Olegovich is not a dental technician, as from the c / I Ivan Vasilevich changes his profession!
        And then ...... you’ll think twice about your teeth Scaling or not!
        Now seriously, you do not have to choose your surname and origin, Piskin was born, and only after 18 you can change him to Zhopkin! About nationality in our multinational Homeland, in principle, it is worth keeping silent, and all the Great Russians, yes, from under Kyev himself, and the rest are Genghis Guides from Karakum!
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 3 May 2020 12: 55 New
          +6
          you don’t have to choose, Piskin was born and only after 18 you can change it to Zhopkin

          A joke of fifteen years ago, Vladislav. drinks From circulation to the passport office: "Hello! My name is Ivan Kakashko. I really want to change my name to Edward ..." wink oh, these users are VO .. request and strive poor Vyacheslav Olegovich to poke a surname and family tree ... laughing
          And under today's article about archives, in general, darkness is going on - there it was "poured" for five years ahead, in advance. fellow I'm scared to even go in there. Colleagues, good luck, endurance and patience to all! drinks
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 3 May 2020 13: 34 New
            +3
            Hi Nikolai! And what happened? A little provocative message of the article, and .... everything, as always, plus the possessed Tatra! The only question is why? fool
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 3 May 2020 13: 37 New
            +2
            And by the way, yes! I definitely do not recommend going into that Sabbath !!!! However, it seems to me that Olegovich is frolicing! Well, just like a child, right! wassat
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 3 May 2020 13: 41 New
              +5
              I categorically do not recommend going into that coven !!!!

              forgive me Vyacheslav Olegovich, but I won’t go either. hi Well him, Sergey. what I appreciate our "quiet sandbox" - educational, friendly, and humorous. drinks
              Well, just like a child, right!

              It was he who released his alter ego. It is here that he is Good Doctor Jekyll, and there is the brutal Edward Hyde! angry Vyacheslav Olegovich, a friendly joke!drinks
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 3 May 2020 13: 47 New
                +3
                Well, yes, yes. To the reasonable question of colleagues why he went to the brothel, the second secretary of the Soviet embassy proudly answered:
                -This is the vile provocation of American imperialism. fool
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 3 May 2020 13: 54 New
                  +5
                  -This is the vile provocation of American imperialism.

                  By the way, in one book on the analysis of the Rezuv-Suvorov I read that the British caught him on Sodom sin! negative Well, his ... I propose to discuss the knights, and those who joined them! wink In extreme cases - underwear. drinks
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 3 May 2020 14: 05 New
                    +3
                    Yeah, okay. Two questions at once.
                    In 2016 Olegovich wrote an article about the Battle of Rakvere, the forces of the parties / Novgorodians, Pskovs on the one hand and the Livonian Order on the other / were much more numerous than during the Battle of the Ice. However, that battle remained in the shadows / the article bears the same name /. Why ?
                    Second question:
                    -One of the comments is signed by the nickname That cat. You don’t remember this? As a long-liver of the site. Why, Stylistics is very good. One of our good friends.
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 May 2020 14: 38 New
                      +3
                      Not not me! I then lived under the nickname "Cat"!
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 3 May 2020 14: 41 New
                        +2
                        * Oh! And here Mishanechka arrived! * laughing Hello Vlad !!!! Damn good to see you at this celebration of life! And I honestly thought you were! The style is similar. good
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 May 2020 18: 06 New
                        +3
                        And I "was extremely small at that heroic time."
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 3 May 2020 14: 53 New
                      +3
                      So tell me, Vlad, about the battle of 1268? Where did the wall of silence come from? * Your word, comrade Mauser! *.
                      Since Olegovich only stated this fact in that article, that yes, there was silence. But he could not name the reason.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 May 2020 18: 02 New
            +4
            I categorically do not recommend going into that coven !!!!
            Yeah, immediately the gag reflex is triggered.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 05: 48 New
    13
    Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the tour in the illustrations!
    I wonder? If the literature has the name "Battle of the Ice"! Why are we hard at work refuting the existence of the latter? If my memory serves me at Poitiers, the Duke of York managed to drown in blood !!! So, for any war-horned person, falling from a horse into ice porridge, let it go knee-deep, can have unpredictable consequences! I won’t say anything about the climate on Lake Peipsi, but the ponds of the middle Urals dropped their carapace only in mid-April! At the end of March, they walked boldly on the ice, even drove.
    Well and the last, reservoirs and rivers half a century ago were more full! The human hand has not yet brought the forest from the open spaces of its habitat. The act is that where today smokers knee-deep, a century ago there could be a rider throat !!!
    Thanks again to Vyacheslav Olegovich, comrades of a good weekend, with respect to Kote !!!
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 06: 11 New
      10
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Why are we hard at work refuting the existence of the latter?

      Who is involved? We know from the texts of the annals that it was. That the dead fell into the grass, that the "brothers" fought from the side of the knights, and Chud, that Alexander won. There are discrepancies. The Livonian rhymed chronicle reports about 6 dead brothers, our chronicles - first about 400, then about 500. But no one disputes that the battle was.
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri 2 May 2020 10: 01 New
        11
        Quote: kalibr
        The Livonian rhyme chronicle reports of 6 dead brothers,

        About 20, Vyacheslav Olegovich, and 6 captured.
        The Knights Brothers resisted quite stubbornly,
        but they were overpowered there.
        Part of the derpttsev out
        from the battle, it was their salvation,
        they were forced to retreat.
        Twenty knight brothers were killed there,
        and six were captured.

        That was the course of the battle.

        Moreover, we are talking about the brothers-knights. The Chronicle is not interested in how many people died, from the composition of their knightly copies and Derpt. And the fact that they stuffed "chudi bezshisla go" is generally a trifle, not even worthy of attention.
        Well, the Livonians lost, according to the Chronicle, only because the Russians, according to the good old tradition, stupidly "filled up with meat". laughing
        The Russians had such a army
        that every German attacked,
        perhaps sixty people

        It’s straight - an oil painting: the poor Germans have already melted their swords, and the Russians, like locusts, all climb and climb. laughing Here's how to fight in such conditions ?!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 12: 05 New
          +7
          Igor! hi
          I think the Russian calculations are more correct, and in the Livonian Chronicle only "white cloaks" are mentioned.
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 2 May 2020 13: 16 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Igor! hi
            I think the Russian calculations are more correct, and in the Livonian Chronicle only "white cloaks" are mentioned.

            So our numbers, too, most likely, are given from the principle: "Why should you feel sorry for them, bastard, write more!" (from). After all, these are chronicles (ie, a narrative source) and not summaries of the then "OGPU".
            In this regard, the Chronicle, at least about its own, gives more accurate information: 20 brothers are 20 copies, 3-4 people in a spear. And, if, somewhat voluntarily, we assume that they did not just "love" their master, but died with him, we get 80-100 max total losses by 200 of the Order only, not counting the Dorpat residents, guests of the Order and Chudi.
            And, as for the enemy ... Here the picture is different: 60 Russians for 1 Livonian is, for the Chronicle, the standard minimum number of Russians capable of at least trying to defeat one Livonian "cyborg". laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 13: 32 New
              +6
              In general, it is worth summarizing that the battle did not carry the epic that it later acquired. And it certainly did not become a catastrophe for the Order, such as the battle of Saul for the swordsmen six years earlier.
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 2 May 2020 14: 26 New
                +5
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                And it certainly did not become a catastrophe for the Order, such as the battle of Saul for the swordsmen six years earlier.

                It may not have been a catastrophe, but judging by the fact that 10 years later they sat on the priest exactly, they didn’t think enough either.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 3 May 2020 13: 26 New
                  +3
                  It may not have been a catastrophe, but judging by the fact that 10 years later they sat on the priest exactly, they didn’t think enough either.

                  She didn’t become a catastrophe. After sitting on the priest exactly.
                  Just, I think, the size of the then armies did not allow epic a la Bondarchuk! hi
          2. BAI
            BAI 2 May 2020 15: 24 New
            +3
            I have read the restored "memoirs" of a Czech knight. The campaigns to the East against the Slavs for the West Europeans were something like a crusade and were quite regular. Other knights came to the aid of the Livonian (Teutonic) Order. It was noted that even a Czech king took part in one of these campaigns. But the Livonian Chronicle recalls only the "Livonian brothers".
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 15: 41 New
              +4
              a bit of a crusade
              What does "like" mean? They were just that, officially confirmed by the papal bulls.
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 3 May 2020 13: 37 New
              +4
              It was noted that even the Czech king participated in one of these campaigns.

              Kings - they are! wink I remember that one Czech king even participated in the sward of the British and French because of an unshared throne. Namely, John of Luxembourg, already blinded by then, decided to fight at the Battle of Crescy as part of the French cavalry. lol The bullied mole rat was tied to the saddle of his own horse, and for fidelity - also to the reins of two knights. fool In this form, the king galloped gallantly against the British. fellow Someone heard that from the noise of the battle came his last cry: "It will never happen that the Czech king fled from the battlefield!" angry In general ... The corpse was later found and buried! And the war lasted another hundred years! request
              These are they - Czech kings! drinks
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 15: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                The corpse was later found and buried!

                And nearby lay the corpses of those knights that accompanied him on the battlefield. With heads broken by the club of John the Blind. smile So, anyway, they say ... hi
        2. kalibr
          2 May 2020 16: 54 New
          +4
          Quote: HanTengri
          The Livonian rhyme chronicle reports of 6 dead brothers,

          I’m always used to looking at documents ... I almost looked - I forgot at once!
      2. cost
        cost 2 May 2020 13: 49 New
        +5

        But to this picture I have no complaints about the distortion of Russian heraldry. And Vladimir, and Novgorod, and Suzdal, and Rostov, and Pskov, and Pereyaslav signs on Russian shields and ensigns are correctly depicted. Especially pleased with the striped red-green Izborsk shield. Campaign and Izborsk sent Alexander his soldiers
        1. cost
          cost 2 May 2020 15: 23 New
          +6
          From childhood, a phrase from, from which I don’t even remember from which one, a book about Yaroslav the Wise sank into my memory.
          "Brought Yaroslav under Lyubech, against brother Svyatopolk, Novgorodians, Varangians, and Izborsky with green-red oleg shields."
          I did not know anything about Izborsk then, about "Oleg's shield" - they had just nailed it to the gates of Tsar.-grad smile But for some reason the phrase struck and was remembered.
          Dear Vyacheslav Olegovich, they would write an article about Izborsk. Not only hordes of enemies of Russia were smashed against its walls. Interesting topic
          1. cost
            cost 2 May 2020 15: 38 New
            +5
            According to legend, Izborsk was founded by Sloven, the son of Gostomysl, who gave him a name in honor of Chosen, the son of Sloven. The first written mention dates back to 862. In the "Tale of Bygone Years" it is written:
            ... the old Rurik sѣde Novѣgorodѣ · and the other Sineѹs on Bѣlѣѡzerѣ · and the third Izborstѣ · Truvor ...

            a photo Izborsk Walls
          2. kalibr
            2 May 2020 16: 56 New
            +5
            Quote: Rich
            would write an article about Izborsk

            I was not there ...
            1. cost
              cost 2 May 2020 17: 05 New
              +3
              So I did not happen to be there. And with your talent from the Internet articles and pictures about him - such material can be done!
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 2 May 2020 22: 26 New
                +2
                Fundamentally, I can go (after quarantine), make authentic photos.
        2. kalibr
          2 May 2020 16: 55 New
          +4
          And who is the author?
        3. kalibr
          2 May 2020 16: 55 New
          +1
          And who is the author?
          1. cost
            cost 2 May 2020 17: 16 New
            +4
            Book author? Kill I do not remember. 50 years have passed. I remember that the author is just a woman, I remember the name Bella (Lermontov), ​​her surname is double through a dash, and her middle name is either Markovna or Moiseevna.
            The book is not a novel, but a collection of articles for children and youth on the history of our ancestors of the Slavs
            1. cost
              cost 2 May 2020 19: 43 New
              +4
              And who is the author?

              Vyacheslav Olegovich, found on the wiki.

              Campaign is her
          2. Fat
            Fat 2 May 2020 17: 19 New
            +3
            Quote: kalibr
            And who is the author?

            Illustration by Mikhail Ivanov.
            Stanislav Romanovsky. Alexander Nevskiy
            Illustrations by Mikhail Ivanov
            Children's literature, 2016
            http://www.labirint.ru/books/128826/?p=11352
            1. kalibr
              2 May 2020 19: 40 New
              +2
              Thank! I'll see ...
              1. Fat
                Fat 3 May 2020 02: 23 New
                +2
                Mikhail Ivanov. Portfolio.
                https://illustrators.ru/users/id75248?page=1
    2. kalibr
      2 May 2020 06: 25 New
      +6
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Well and the last, reservoirs and rivers half a century ago were more full!

      It is your opinion. But what it is: An expedition to the site of the Battle of the Ice in the Pskov Region discovered the foundation of a XNUMXth-century church at the bottom of Lake Peipsi, said the dean of the Department of Geography of the Russian State Pedagogical University named after A.I. Herzen Dmitry Subetto, writes "Interfax".
      “The foundation of the church was discovered, which is now at a depth of about 1 meter. According to the annals, the age is XV century, 1450, ”Subetto said at a press conference on Wednesday.
      According to him, the foundation is located 1,5 km from the coast.
      As the scientist noted, as part of the search for the place of the Battle of the Ice, the expedition found that the depths of the lake do not exceed 2 meters, and also separate deep troughs were discovered.
      “When we decided to simulate what the research area looked like 800 years ago, if we minus 1,5-2 meters, it turns out that this territory was land,” said Subetto.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 07: 16 New
        +8
        A more digestible option is that the church was placed on the site of the Battle of the Ice.
        In fact, any body of water becomes shallow due to silt deposits. About 1 meter per century !!! So silt deposits displace water, the bottom is smaller, the surface area of ​​the water increases.
        Somewhere like that!

        An example of the Atig pond that I mention! The abandonment of the lower dam led to the flooding of the bottom. The reservoir began to sink the shore, I had to underestimate the drainage of the dam by a meter!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 09: 03 New
          +2
          Pouring - read as silting the bottom!
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 14: 41 New
            +6
            Greetings to the venerable meeting. hi smile
            Vlad, I’ll fix it a bit.
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            under Poitiers, the Duke of York managed to drown in blood

            Everything is correct, as in that anecdote, but not under Poitiers, but under Agincourt and did not choke in blood, but suffocated in shell - health was poor. smile
            Quote: kalibr
            That the dead fell into the grass

            Vyacheslav Olegovich, "fell on the grass" - a common poetic cliché of that time in German literature. Livonian rhymed chronicle, primarily a poetic work of a patriotic nature.
            Quote: HanTengri
            every German was attacked
            perhaps sixty people

            And, apparently, at the same time. These were probably very small Russians. laughing
            The same cliche. Poetic metaphor, nothing more. Even the Germans themselves did not believe in these numbers - neither those who wrote, nor those who listened.
            Quote: kalibr
            An expedition to the site of the Battle of the Ice in the Pskov Region discovered the foundation of a XNUMXth-century church at the bottom of Lake Peipsi

            I tried to find information exactly where this church was found. Have not found. Vyacheslav Olegovich, maybe you have accurate data? Do you have an official report on this expedition? My hands are already itching to read it!
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            reservoirs and rivers half a century ago were more full!

            Of course. There is plenty of evidence for this. But there are some nuances with Lake Peipsi. There is the following hypothesis. It is known that the southern coast of the Gulf of Finland is gradually rising (Koporye will not lie smile ) and the coastal edge of the bay recedes north. This rise limits the flow of rivers flowing into the Gulf of Finland. Peipsi Lake has the only runoff in the form of the Narva River, which is quite full-flowing, which passes through two waterfalls within the city of Narva. So, some believe that these waterfalls were formed precisely as a result of a sharp rise in the earth's crust in this place. As a result of the same rise, flow from Lake Peipsi to the Gulf of Finland was temporarily difficult, which is why the level in the lake began to rise. Then the stock returned to normal, but the level remained the same. Where I read, I say right away, I don’t remember. It was a long time ago, and the book was definitely not scientific, but popular science, such as local history, devoted specifically to Narva waterfalls.
            And, by the way, disputes over the level of Lake Peipsi and the location of its coastal edge are now just flaring up. The positions are diametrically opposite and I don’t even know which one to give preference. Some say that the water stood a meter higher, others - that a meter lower.
            1. kalibr
              2 May 2020 16: 58 New
              +4
              About the grass, that we have already sorted this expression ... I remember. I wrote this because in the annals the information is very scarce ... At least something ...
    3. cost
      cost 2 May 2020 13: 22 New
      +4
      Good morning, Vdadislav hi
      Probably the earliest image of the Battle of the Ice
      Photo Battle on the Ice. Miniature of the Facial Annalistic Arch, mid-XNUMXth century.
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 2 May 2020 05: 51 New
    -1
    In the author’s picture, it’s likely that the dogs will not sink - the knights, but the lake. The author, he is a historian. He knows better.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 06: 14 New
      +3
      Quote: sergo1914
      In the author’s picture, it’s likely that the dogs will not sink - the knights, but the lake. The author, he is a historian. He knows better.

      Without a doubt, Sergey. But you yourself can open the texts of the chronicles and read them. You will know exactly as much as I do. And there is no need to learn "to be a historian", write all sorts of books, defend dissertations. Exactly the same number ... And it's even easier to read an article in the PRAVDA newspaper. She is in front of you ...
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 06: 40 New
        +7
        An article in the newspaper Pravda appeared 700 years after the events described! Now passed 777 anniversary !!!
        Grass and ice are compatible, tea does not live in Africa. How do you like the yellow flowers of the stepmother and gray nostril ice, with the fisherman in the middle of the pond !!! Traditionally, the picture is supplemented by an EMERCOM officer running along the ice edge and screaming “Uncle Petya, son of a bitch, Petr Petrovich, drown ...... what will I tell your daughter”? And in response, “Vaska don’t shout, scared all the fish, tell your wife that her folder fell in the fight against the witch’s pike, like a Tatar on the Battle of the Ice” !!! The real picture, in the bathhouse they split !!! Are you a newspaper really !!! wink
        About the brothers of the Order! The truth is perhaps somewhere in the middle. For the layman of the Batyev invasion, any knighted equestrian warrior was a knight! So the numbers are playing somewhere in the region of 40-60! Just about the spear of 4-6 brothers !!! Although this is only speculation !!!
        With sincere respect!
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 06: 47 New
          +4
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Although this is only speculation !!!

          That's it. Just a hunch.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 07: 20 New
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Although this is only speculation !!!

            That's it. Just a hunch.

            However, this method of "golden mean" is used today! Losses do not always hit. So take the averaged data !!!
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri 2 May 2020 11: 06 New
          +4
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          So the numbers are playing somewhere in the region of 40-60! Just about the spear of 4-6 brothers !!!

          My respect, Vladislav! hi But there could be only one knight brother in the spear, i.e. monk. The rest are squires and other servants.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 11: 34 New
            +2
            We do not know how our ancestors considered their "rotten"! I think it is trite - if equestrian, armed and hospitable - then a knight!
            The loss of 4-6 brothers, in all cases, would not be considered as a defeat of the Livonian Order. But an increase in this number by an order of magnitude could be a “good” slap in the face to Livonian morden! So, as always, defeated their losses. They underestimated their irrevocable sufferings, the winners on the contrary embellished them! Here with respect, it should be noted the pragmatic approach of our census takers who increased their absolute numbers only by a fifth from 400 to 500, and not by a multiple of what the Livonians themselves sinned !!!
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 2 May 2020 12: 26 New
              +3
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

              We do not know how our ancestors considered their "rotten"! I think it is trite - if equestrian, armed and hospitable - then a knight!

              Of course! Come, there, the difference between a real fighting obscurantist, from his squire (novice, obviously), or from the people of the Derpt bishop, or from a guest of the order, who arrived in the usual way to pray for sins. You are tormented by sorting. Hence, in particular, there is a discrepancy in ours and their numbers: They only considered the brothers, and ours - all en masse.
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              The loss of 4-6 brothers, in all cases, would not be considered as a defeat of the Livonian Order.

              The elder Livonian Rhymed Chronicle reports about 20 killed brothers and 6 captured. If we assume that they were cut out and taken prisoner together with spears, then, with the then number of spears, 3-4 people. (not counting the knight) we get max total losses of 26 * 5 = 130 adversaries. + it is still not known how many Derptists, although the Chronicle writes that they washed off in time. But, after all, not all the same!
              With a brawl about 350-400 of our 250-300 Germans (if we assume that there was no infantry). The losses are very significant.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 15: 31 New
                +6
                Quote: HanTengri
                With a brawl about 350-400 of our 250-300 Germans (if we assume that there was no infantry). The losses are very significant.

                I also enjoy listening to Klim Zhukov, but I think that in terms of assessing the size and composition of troops in the Battle of the Ice and other battles of that period, he greatly goes too far in the direction of her, this strength, decrease. In addition, he claims that only professional soldiers participated in the battles, denying the participation of the infantry in general.
                The numbers that you (and he) are voicing can refer specifically to professional equestrian soldiers, but on the side of the Germans there was also a miracle militia (which fell without a number), and on the side of the Russians - Pskov and Novgorod, which showered the Germans with arrows. So, I think, a few hundred more people can be safely added, both from that and from the other side.
                I remember in one of the articles about Yaroslav Vsevolodovich I analyzed the losses of the Novgorod rati in the battle with Lithuania during the reflection of the next raid. There, all the dead from the Novgorodians were listed by name with an indication of their social status, a one to four ratio was obtained - for one dead professional soldier there were four dead militias. I’m not sure that these figures can be directly transferred so boldly to the ice battle, especially since the Novgorodians won that battle and the Germans lost this, but ... tempting. smile According to this calculation technique, the total losses of the German troops will be about five to six hundred people.
                And, of course, in any case, the loss of more than a hundred professional combatants in one hassle is very significant for any army of that time, here I completely agree. It will take a lot of resources and, most importantly time, to prepare new ones, to replace them in order to make up for these losses.
                However, it was easier for the Germans, of course. They had a constant and inexhaustible source of such recruiting in the form of arriving pilgrim knights who wanted to "earn their flax," in their own words. They could not support a large army - there were not enough resources, but they could replenish quickly.
                1. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 2 May 2020 15: 44 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  In addition, he claims that only professional soldiers participated in the battles, denying the participation of the infantry in general.

                  Klim Zhukov generally believes that infantry in Russia was not used, or was used exclusively for the defense of cities. If with regard to individual battles, wars and periods, he is more likely right than wrong, then raising this statement to absolute is somehow the same ... The Sovushka suffers laughing For it is one thing when the Rusich climbed into the steppe, and it was really not easy to fight with the infantry (the steppes in this case won in mobility), and quite another - the mahach somewhere with Hungarians, Poles or Teutons, who, in addition to the professional core of knightly cavalry used infantry, and in this regard, Russia was not much different from Europeans. Moreover, there are specific references to this, but Zhukov ignores or rejects these references.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 17: 07 New
                    +4
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    Klim Zhukov generally believes that infantry in Russia was not used, or was used exclusively for the defense of cities.

                    I am impressed by his charisma and his experience as a re-enactor for the historian, as it seems to me, is very valuable.
                    But, it seems to me that he, this experience, like everything else in our lives, has a flip side - there was a slight bias in Klim’s mind, akin to professional deformation, he gives it (the experience) too much importance, sweeping away everything in his mind that contradicts him.
                    On Lipitsa, just 25 years before the Battle of Ice, the Novgorodians refused to fight on horseback and launched an attack on foot.
                    There are numerous references to the "ship's army" in the composition of the Novgorod squads, which could not have been horseback. Later, on the experience of these ships' men, ushers will appear - also purely foot soldiers.
                    Yaroslav’s campaign on em in 1227 was also ski, that is, on foot.
                    In any case, in relation to Novgorod, we can confidently say that he had infantry, that it was quite combat-ready and did not lose its significance even during the complete domination of the knightly cavalry on the battlefields in Europe.
                    I remember that in the description of the battle of Yaroslav in 1245 there is mention of combat-ready infantry in the army of Daniel, although here I am not entirely sure.
                    1. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor 2 May 2020 17: 32 New
                      +7
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      In any case, in relation to Novgorod, we can confidently say that he had infantry, that it was quite combat-ready and did not lose its significance even during the complete domination of the knightly cavalry on the battlefields in Europe.

                      Novgorod is the most striking example here because the most combat-ready part of the Russian infantry at that time consisted of just city regiments, which were sufficiently cohesive and well equipped with weapons and armor for that time, a kind of analogue of the hoplite militia from ancient Greece. Such infantry was in all the more or less large cities of Russia, and certainly in every capital city, and most of the composition of this regiment was exactly on foot. And Novgorod among the cities is the standard precisely because it developed most of all in Russia precisely as a city, and accordingly possessed the most powerful (numerous, well-armed) city regiment.

                      Of course, this infantry was still not at all the kind of infantry that will appear in the future, but by the standards of its time, it is very even on the level. In general, you can talk on this topic for a long time, since I have heard little about city regiments from military historians, but when "smoking" socio-economic and socio-political relations in the territory of Russia in general and South-Western Russia in particular, city regiments are mentioned regularly.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      I remember that in the description of the battle of Yaroslav in 1245 there is mention of combat-ready infantry in the army of Daniel, although here I am not entirely sure.

                      Daniil Galitsky was probably, if not the first, then one of the first rulers of late Russia, who was able to form, on the basis of city regiments and community militias, more or less combat-ready, but most importantly, numerous infantry. Along with reforms in the field of cavalry (de facto the creation of a local army) and equipment (after the Mongol invasion, the conversion of good, but expensive armor and weapons to cheaper, simpler to manufacture and massive, Mongolian models quickly took place, which is why Galitsko -Volyn army, the Hungarians and Poles sometimes even mistook for the steppes) this allowed both Daniel and Lev Danilovich to successfully fight for a long time, sometimes in several directions, and win victories. Actually, a vivid example of the fact that high quality is good, but the quantity with sufficient quality is sometimes much better.
                2. kalibr
                  2 May 2020 17: 10 New
                  +5
                  In one of my articles on the Massacre ... I drew attention to the fact that in 1290 there were 91 castles in the Order. How many there were in 1242 is unknown. But in 1241 the Order took part in the Battle of Legnica and suffered losses. One castle - 1 (one!) Knight + castellan knight, but he did not leave the castle + some kind of garrison. The Pskov garrison consisted of 2 (!) Knights and an unknown number of warriors. And also Chud, which was filled with "innumerable" ... So in 1242 some knights simply died, someone was ill, did not recover from their wounds ... As a result - how many knights could go to battle?
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 17: 31 New
                    +4
                    In 1269, near Pskov, according to the same Germans, 180 knights came at the head and the master. Raven Stone had, of course, less.
                    I think it's not worth counting knights by the number of castles. Or, in any case, do it with the proviso "no less." The knights came and went, not all of them joined the Order and got into reports, and certainly not all of them owned allotments and castles. The author of LRH, it is believed, generally considered only the brothers, he did not care about the rest.
                    How many of them were no one will say for sure.
                    My opinion, for which I personally will not cling, if normal arguments are presented to me - in total the German army did not exceed one and a half thousand, it was more likely even less than a treadmill was cavalry (i.e. no more than 500 horsemen, rather 300-400), from there are about 50-60 of them, namely, brothers-knights. I repeat once again, this is my personal opinion, it is, in fact, based on nothing - only on the loss report, which I used as a starting point in the calculations.
                    There were as many Russians or several more, but the Russian infantry, consisting of the Novgorod and Pskov militias, was much more combat-ready than the miracle brought by the Germans, and this largely determined the outcome of the battle.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 17: 50 New
                      +4
                      Counting knights by the number of castles, I think, is not worth it.
                      Exactly, Mikhail! Because these castles are nothing more than a log keep, surrounded by a log tyn. Sirech, strong point. But the strategy of "development" of territories was unique and innovative for its time.
                      1. kalibr
                        2 May 2020 17: 56 New
                        +5
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Counting knights by the number of castles, I think, is not worth it.
                        Exactly, Mikhail! Because these castles are nothing more than a log keep, surrounded by a log tyn. Sirech, strong point. But the strategy of "development" of territories was unique and innovative for its time.

                        Not always. I was in the territory of the Order, I looked at the remains of castles ... Brick! And there are many ruins!
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 18: 06 New
                        +3
                        This is a later "upgrade".
                    2. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor 2 May 2020 17: 57 New
                      +6
                      Under the early Piasts, who unified Poland, the state was strengthened with approximately the same system - at the distance of one day's march, fortified towns were located, where troops loyal to the ruler sat. Later, villages, cities began to appear around these fortifications, or they simply developed into castles. In fact, a fairly common system where human resources and space allowed it to be used. In Russia, for example, with its "tiny" spaces, it was unrealistic to create such a system, but later the territory of the Steppe began to be squeezed out, including with the help of various individual fortifications and fortified lines. For the way, in fact, has been obvious since Roman times.
                    3. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 18: 10 New
                      +4
                      one march away
                      Teutons, if I remember correctly, the distance was 1/2 day equestrian passage.
                    4. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor 2 May 2020 18: 17 New
                      +5
                      So here the less - the better, but you also have to build on the available resources. Well, let's just say, the Polish tribes resisted the approval of the Piast power less than the local resistance to the approval of the Teutonic power. There, naturally, the "Wild West" was for some time, only in the east, and the presence of fortified settlements as close to each other as possible was not a superfluous feature. Something like how a network of checkpoints and garrisons is used to control territories in our time.
                3. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 18: 23 New
                  +6
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  these castles are nothing more than a log dungeon surrounded by log logs.

                  Not at all. The Germans built thoroughly, at least in the Baltic states. In Estonia and Latvia, almost all castles were originally stone, and Russians noted this. Moreover, there were no problems with raw materials for such construction in these places, especially in Estonia. First, stone walls were erected, then the rest of the buildings. They baked these castles like pancakes. In any case, I have not read about wooden German castles, but stone ones are constantly mentioned.
                  This, by the way, greatly complicated the siege of the Russians - no Russians took a German castle in the Baltic, although they tried several times. They did not know how to storm stone walls. Wooden - built an omen, set fire and onward. It doesn’t work with stone.
                4. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 2 May 2020 18: 36 New
                  +6
                  In order to build something decent from brick, you need at least two seasons (2 years). Described by me, is being built in two weeks, along with the embankment of tyna. And, well (!), German immigrants! And only then, under the protection of this checkpoint, you can lay the foundation, extract clay, make bricks and build thoroughly.
                5. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 19: 00 New
                  +3
                  No, there is no brick, there is mainly natural limestone, like Ladoga, Pskov, Izborsk, etc.
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Described by me, is being built in two weeks,

                  From this point of view, yes, of course there were temporary structures, it all began with them. But they existed exactly as much as was required for the construction of the capital structure. On average, as I understand it, a castle was built for about 10 years, although, of course, it happened faster, for example, the first castles on the Dvina, Koporye is the same, Landskrona (it is Swedish, but it doesn’t matter), Vyborg. On Izhora, the Swedes wanted to arrange something similar, but it did not work out.
                6. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 2 May 2020 19: 13 New
                  +3

                  From this point of view, yes, of course there were temporary structures, it all began with them. But they existed exactly as much as was required for the construction of the capital structure.

                  So I'm talking about the same thing!
                  The leader in the speed of construction is Chateau-Gaillard, 2,5 years, if not mistaken.
                  Of limestone - it is unfinished, of brick faster, Marienburg - brick.
                7. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 19: 48 New
                  +3
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  brick faster

                  Only if brick production is established. And here is the limestone - it lies right in layers and there is no need to dig deep. A river or stream at the bottom of the canyon will lie.
                8. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 2 May 2020 19: 58 New
                  +3
                  And what to do when the stone broken by nature ends? That's right, break it yourself. The Germans at the mouth of Narva chose everything they can, the Russians left to build Ivan the city of brick
                9. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 20: 29 New
                  +3
                  The Lord is with you, the Ivangorod fortress is made of local limestone. He will never end there. smile
                  Here is a fortress, and here is a layer of limestone under it. smile
                10. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 2 May 2020 20: 33 New
                  +2
                  Yes, I did it! repeat
                  But in principle, in our region, loams are distributed as well as limestone. Establishing a simple brick production is not a difficult task.
                11. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 21: 05 New
                  +2
                  By the way, an interesting topic for research. I mean, when we finally switched to brick during the construction of defensive structures. The Novgorod Kremlin, if I remember correctly, is only lined with brick, and I don’t remember when. It is unlikely in the XV century. And so the brick production only under Peter was probably mastered on an industrial scale.
                12. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 2 May 2020 21: 15 New
                  +4
                  In Moscow, EMNIP for the first time began to make classic burnt bricks under Ivan III, the Italians brought the technology at the end of the XNUMXth century, and it quickly found distribution literally everywhere. Initially used for the construction of temples, but then it was also extended to fortifications when the Kremlin needed to be updated.
                13. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 2 May 2020 21: 40 New
                  +1
                  It is interesting that in Transnistria even now, in private construction, limestone blocks are used, the local name is: katalets
                14. Fat
                  Fat 3 May 2020 00: 51 New
                  +1
                  Quote: arturpraetor
                  In Moscow, EMNIP for the first time began to make classic burnt bricks under Ivan III, the Italians brought the technology at the end of the XNUMXth century, and it quickly found distribution literally everywhere. Initially used for the construction of temples, but then it was also extended to fortifications when the Kremlin needed to be updated.

                  Even before the widespread use of limestone in stone construction in Russia, it was used plinfa it is also ceramics. Hagia Sophia in Kiev from plans built in the 11th century. Golden Gate of Kiev.
                  A standard brick came to Russia with Italian masters, yes.
                  Both ancient Rome and Byzantium from plinth. Plinfa in Byzantium and in Russia 300x350x25 mm approximately ... A smaller plinfa was also used as a tile
                15. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 3 May 2020 01: 35 New
                  +2
                  Plinfa is a little different. In the North-West and North-East of Russia it was used limitedly, mainly for temple construction. For fortification, the plinth was used little, since the characteristic masonry with its use does not differ in special impact strength. In times of plinths, serfdom was mainly used for wood or stone.
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 21: 17 New
              +2
              I think before Peter. Example - Smolensk Kremlin.
            3. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 22: 44 New
              +1
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              I think before Peter

              Quote: arturpraetor
              In Moscow, EMNIP for the first time began to make classic burnt bricks themselves under Ivan III

              In Russia, of course, earlier. I mean with us, in the northwest. It is interesting to trace the "struggle" between limestone and brick as building materials. smile
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 22: 50 New
              +1
              Hmmm. Really interesting! I don’t remember what the walls of Tallinn are made of ...
            5. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 22: 58 New
              +2
              Gray. Most likely the same limestone.
              In Narva, even the strengthening of the late XVII - early XVIII centuries. from limestone.
            6. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 23: 01 New
              +2
              Most likely the same limestone.
              Well, certainly not silicate brick! laughing
            7. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 23: 06 New
              +1
              But Peter is built of bricks, but on a limestone foundation. I don’t know the houses completely built of limestone, but many of Putilovsky’s limestone have the foundations and cladding. Putilovo is a village a little away from the Murmansk highway, where, by the way, in my opinion, limestone is still being broken.
            8. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 23: 14 New
              +1
              Break-break! The truth is no longer for backing up. And so, the "Putilovskaya slab" was used as a foundation material until the 60s of the last century. At least the "German quarters" are definitely on it.
            9. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 23: 19 New
              +1
              I was there three or four years ago, the last time I drove through Putilovo in the direction of Gaitolovo. I saw a lot of abandoned workings, I didn’t notice the active ones, then I just read somewhere that there are still active workings.
              By the way, my trilobite comes almost from there - also from the shores of Nazia, only a little upstream - from the vicinity of Apraksin. smile
            10. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 23: 25 New
              +3
              The bridge of the old Arkhangelsk tract across the river. Lava.

              I’ve been planning a couple of years to go there in the spring to see. And this year is not fate ...
            11. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 23: 26 New
              +2
              About four years ago, the guys working with stone told me that they bought material there. I myself, in the summer of 18g. wandered around the river. Lava. Come on, damn it!
            12. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 23: 29 New
              +1
              I just remembered about her ...
              But in the spring I wanted to wander there - so that there was a lot of water in the river, and there was not enough any nettle. smile
            13. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 23: 34 New
              +2
              In the summer, I think it’s more interesting, boots are not needed. Sneakers, shorts - and go with the flow!
            14. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 00: 00 New
              +2
              It’s good when the day ends with a peaceful conversation. smile
              Thank you for your kind words, Anton. smile
              I’ll go slowly to prepare for the arms of Morpheus. hi
            15. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 3 May 2020 00: 01 New
              +2
              Good night, Michael! hi
  • kalibr
    2 May 2020 17: 55 New
    +3
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Once again, this is my personal opinion,

    With which, in principle, we can agree ...
  • Engineer
    Engineer 2 May 2020 22: 45 New
    +1
    In addition
    The battle of Saul. 110 knights. 400-500 mounted sergeants. Approx. 700 mercenaries approx. 400 german vassals. Up to 5000 local auxiliary troops.
    Osprey data.
    Another ratio of knights and the rest.
    Each comment is nominally 12 knights. Only 100 fighters
  • ee2100
    ee2100 3 May 2020 09: 49 New
    0
    About the Chud militia, which fell without number. Both in the 13th century and until recently, Estonians lived on the farm. How could they get together in squads? How to inform them that on 5 (12) .04.1242 they should be on the western shore of Lake Chud? Currently, there are about 1 million people living in Estonia who call themselves Estonians. How many were there in the 13th century? Estonians are always rational in everything. Which of the adult male population will go to fight? May is soon and it is necessary to plant and sow. If there were 400 farmsteads on the territory of the episcopate, this is very good, but if, as I think here, there were 400 militias from Chudi, then it turns out that they all went to fight. "no number" is simply no one to count!
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 12: 41 New
      +3
      You, it seems to me, do not extrapolate the modern experience to past centuries very correctly.
      Quote: ee2100
      Both in the 13th century and until recently, Estonians lived on a farm.

      But do not live and did not live in cities? smile
      There is also a question: what is a "farm" and to what extent this concept today corresponds to it in the XNUMXth century.
      Quote: ee2100
      Estonians are always rational in everything.

      Not sure. Let's say that now you know Estonians better than anyone else, and based on your own experience, you can draw conclusions about the degree of their "rationality" in comparison with other nations. But on what basis do you extrapolate these conclusions of yours eight centuries ago?
      At the beginning of the XIII century. Estonians - "chud" - were a young and energetic people, freedom-loving, hot-tempered, ready for an uprising, ready to fight for their freedom. And they did not live in farms, at least not in such farms as now, they lived in clans, not families. And their level of organization was unlike today's, when, despite all the technologies, people do not know, roughly speaking, the name of their neighbor. At that time, the ability to organize quickly was a vital necessity, one of the main survival tools.
      How many times has the Chud rebelled against the Germans and Danes in the previous thirty years of the Battle of the Ice? Too lazy to count, but five times - for sure. How did they do it? They also gathered on a campaign against Russia. And they died there "without number", because they were unlucky. This time. And, by the way, they were not always so "unlucky". You can recall several quite successful predatory trips to the water - this is to the territory of the modern Kingisepp and Volosovsky districts of the Leningrad region, when the villages of the Vods were cut out together with women and children cleaned up, robbed to their heart's content and returned home alive. And as for the campaigns together with the Germans, then there was no end to those who wanted to - it was profitable. Read the chronicles. The knights never went on a campaign only on their own - they always had a contingent of attracted locals with them.
      And the turnover "without number" in Russian chronicles is used exclusively in the meaning of "very much".
      So alas. I think that all your constructions from the initial premises to the final conclusions are erroneous. hi
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 3 May 2020 13: 41 New
        0
        About the hutoov. Their principle has not changed much in centuries. The only thing that they stopped building in inaccessible places. Suppose you are an Estonian who is going to go swing with the Russians, and his wife and two children remain at home. Will you go Will the wife let go? The area of ​​the episcopacy is about 10000 square km. How do the farmers communicate with each other? SMS mailing list? The population of Estonia at that time was 15-20 thousand. From where is it without a number? The mentality is developed by generations. And with centuries it only strengthens. Estonians are single-handed, in the good sense of the word.
        Yes there were uprisings. If 3 skins are being torn from you, you will not only howl, but also take up the forks. Attacking with food is the common fun of the time. It turns out the Russians can attack, but the Estonians can not? About the city. Give me at least one city in Estonia at that time.
        What about extrapolation. I think this is permissible when the common features of the people are characterized. In your articles, does it measure the distance between fortresses using Google maps mechanisms?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 16: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: ee2100
          About hutoov. Their principle has not changed much in centuries.

          Has changed. Families began to settle only when it became relatively safe, before that they settled in childbirth - it is easier to fight off different bandits, and it’s easier to hide from neighbors.
          Next.
          Quote: ee2100
          You are an Estonian who is going to go swing with the Russians, and his wife and two children remain at home.

          This one will not work. His numerous offspring of the male of the sex will go, for example, two out of five sons. They will come with prey - good. Died - such a fate, out there, new ones are growing, maybe more luck. There were many children, but not much food. And the land too. So to whom to go on a campaign to rob - always were.
          Quote: ee2100
          SMS mailing list?

          Do not jerk, otherwise I will start. You know how - messengers. Received the news - sent the maltz to the neighbors. Those are next. And, I repeat, there were no thousands of farms — there were hundreds of villages, many of which were even fortified. All modern Estonian cities and the majority of large settlements are in place of such settlements.
          Quote: ee2100
          The mentality is developed by generations. And with centuries it only strengthens.

          Or it changes if living conditions change. With the arrival of the Germans and Danes, the conditions for Estonians changed dramatically. After that, for seven hundred years they were rotten, disunited, dominated over them, instilled ideas about their inferiority, the need to submit to the "European master", be it a German, a Swede or a Dane. Enough to form a new mentality, namely -
          Quote: ee2100
          Estonians are single-handed, in the good sense of the word.

          Both in a good way and in a bad way. Narrow range of interests due to self-sufficiency. The inability to organize is due to isolation, and so every "good" sense will have a "bad" one.
          Quote: ee2100
          Give me at least one city in Estonia at that time.

          You yourself know them well - Revel, Dorpat, Odenpe, Wesenberg - all these are cities built on the site of those very Estonian settlements. You can recall more, but I'm too lazy to climb into literature for this.
          And as for the extrapolations - geographical extrapolations are still more appropriate than historical ones, agree. Although some caution is also required here - rivers change currents, roads change directions, lakes swamp, swamps overgrow, etc. But nevertheless, people change over time hundreds, thousands of times faster, and you understand this very well. I don’t even understand why you brought such a comparison.
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 3 May 2020 16: 57 New
          0
          In vain do you think that Estonians lived in villages in the 13th century? Tell the Estonians. The village is easier to rob. Everything is in place. And you live on a farm - it is easier and faster to hide in the forest or in a swamp. By the way, about the swamps. When the Estonians attacked the knights, they hid in the swamps after the attack. On horses and in armor in a swamp you can't fight much. We are now talking about a specific event about the so-called. Battle on the ice. This one is about sms. Let's, based on the text of the chronicle, imagine that Prince Alexander with his army retreats from Tartu. How many messengers have to be sent to the knights across the territory of 10000 sq. Km to collect the "miracle without number" precisely on the western shore of the warm lake, and on 5.04.1242. And how long it will take. Couple of weeks. And Alexander with a friendly freeze on the ice? You can check the distances on the maps. The locals were on the side of the knights - definitely yes. Because Russians are their enemies.
          There is no point in talking about the demographic situation in Estonia at that time. Whoever wants it and thinks so.
          What you have listed are fortresses. Yes, people lived in the circle of fortresses, but there were not many of them. So what to call it cities and it's too early. Novgorod-city, Pskov-city, because the townspeople live behind the city (fortress) wall. One fortress of that time, Rakvere, has survived in Estonia. Look at the plan of the fortress. Fortresses were built to protect the knights and more! To protect against the external and internal (local population) of the enemy. After the Swedes surrendered Revel, Peter conducted a population census and you would be surprised - there were no Estonians there. This is about a farm.
        3. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 18: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: ee2100
          In vain do you think that in the 13th century Estonians lived in villages?

          No, not in vain. Estonians, like all nations experiencing the collapse of the tribal system, lived precisely through clans and tribes. There were tribal centers, with them were connected according to the tribal principle of the village or village, the essence is not in the term. Now there are cities on the site of tribal centers, and villages and villages, villages and villages, on the site of villages. Excavations in Tallinn, Tartu, Narva unequivocally say that on the site of these settlements before the Germans arrived (in the case of Tartu - Russians, with Tallinn - Danes) there were fortified Estonian settlements - tribal centers, which even had their names found in Russian chronicles - Kolyvan, Rugodiv, Rakovor, Bear Head, etc. That's the name of the settlement, on the site of which Yuryev-Tartu arose, I do not remember.
          But it turns out that Estonians are the direct exception to all the rules. Korela, Lithuania, Latgals, Prussians, Curonian, Suomi, etc. they lived like everyone else, and Estonians lived on farms. This does not happen.
          Next, you wonder how they were going?
          Very simple. Alexander went on a campaign, or rather, began to pack on a campaign. How long does a messenger get from Pskov to Dorpat? From Dorpat to Wenden (Cesis)? Messengers in all directions indicating to arrive at Dorpat as soon as possible and the collection begins. When the Russian army left Pskov in Estonia, everyone was already on their ears. Who managed to come up - those participated in the battle. The knights gathered quickly, and the miracles gathered as much as they could.
          Quote: ee2100
          What you have listed are fortresses.

          These are modern cities built on the site of tribal centers, which were the essence of fortified settlements. Castles were built to protect the feudal lords not in the first place, but in the second. First, to control the local population and territory, and therefore they were built where there are people and there are roads.
          Quote: ee2100
          Peter conducted a census

          And the data of this census tell us only about what was there at that time, but not half a millennium earlier.
          Interesting people come across here from time to time. Napoleon’s horses had a rest - so the Mongols also had to rest. In the XVIII century. There were no Estonians in Tallinn, which means there weren’t in XIII ...
          Building your concepts and making conclusions about some historical event, you need to operate with data about this event and general knowledge about that period, with reference to the region where the event took place. To draw conclusions on the basis of events that took place after half a millennium or thousands of kilometers is obviously a losing business.
        4. ee2100
          ee2100 3 May 2020 18: 37 New
          0
          Everything can be explained. I agree that the fortresses were built in the places most convenient geographically. And before the knights these places were not empty. I want to believe that Estonians lived in villages, believe. We are not talking about history in general, but by the 5th century as applied. About the messengers. Sending them to farms or even villages is something beyond. How much time did Alexander go with his friend from Pskov? 6-3 days. Tiuns got to Derpat 4-3 days. If the messengers traveled around the diocese, one way 4-4 days, the Estonians gathered came to Dorpat from different sides for 5-10 days. Help came in the form of a detachment of other knights (we do not specify where). All this is at least 11-XNUMX days. Does Alexander wait for everyone to gather at the walls of the fortress?
          Once the lands of Estonia were in the orbit of interests and influence of the northeastern principalities, and therefore the settlements had the original Russian name.
          Do not forget that the knights knew what Russian forces they would have to fight with, and the locals also knew about it. Everyone agrees that there were at least twice as many Russians. And the outcome of the battle was already clear.
        5. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 May 2020 19: 57 New
          +1
          Quote: ee2100
          I want to believe that Estonians lived in villages, believe.

          Science is also science, which allows not to choose faith, but to know.
          Quote: ee2100
          We are not talking about history in general, but by the XNUMXth century as applied.

          That's right. Not about XVIII or other eras. And you need to look at the data for this particular era.
          Quote: ee2100
          How much time did Alexander go with his friend from Pskov? 5-6 days.

          A month passed between the liberation of Pskov and the battle. Before that, there was also a war - the liberation of Koporye and the campaign itself in Pskov. There was enough time to prepare. But even if we consider that Pskov was completely unexpectedly lost to the Germans, it’s enough for a month to prepare to repel Alexander’s campaign. We collected as much as we could, it would be more time - we would have collected more.
          Quote: ee2100
          settlements had the original Russian name

          These are Estonian names, rewritten or traced, like the Bear Head, into Russian.
          Quote: ee2100
          Everyone agrees that there were at least twice as many Russians

          There are no data on the number as such. All calculations are made based on various assumptions and extrapolations. Those who say that there were twice as many Russians should provide their arguments, or refer to the point of view of authoritative specialists. Who are these "all" that say so?
          I support the point of view according to which there were more Russians, but not by much.
          Quote: ee2100
          And the outcome of the battle was already clear.

          Heroes of the Germans went to certain death? smile
          An entirely unthinkable assumption. There were no fools. The Germans, when the chances of victory were too small, quietly stayed in their castles without problems. The Russians will destroy the Chud - badly, of course, but not fatally. But to fight with the Russians in the field is a very risky business. If you entered the field, then you saw your chances of winning and considered them significant.
        6. ee2100
          ee2100 3 May 2020 20: 40 New
          0
          You "pull" parts of the text and comment on these heaps. I did not check, but the "liberation" of Kaporya was before the campaign to Pskov. Yes, the knights were more professional warriors, and not only I admit it. The ratio was 1: 4 for losses.
          By etiology and names. Maybe all the other way around is a tracing paper from Russian names. For example, "Rakovor" then - Ravkere now, not Weisenberg.
          Few write that "liberation" is nothing more than the denunciation of the peace treaty between Pskov and the Dorpat episcopacy. Novgorod once again decided to show who is in charge in this region.
          Please comment on the part about "messengers" and general fees.
          Regards to you. Answer to the last paragraph later
        7. ee2100
          ee2100 3 May 2020 20: 46 New
          0
          After your publications about the life of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, I wondered "why the knights, even in an obvious minority, leave the fortress and fight?" Why don't they just sit out in the fortress, because the Novgorodians were not going to storm the fortress. You also did not have an answer to this question. The only thing that can be assumed is money, not in the literal sense of course. Everything is always based on concepts. The knights came and told the local population (about baptism too) you are our subjects, you pay us tribute, and we protect you. If the enemy came, and the knights sat in the fortress, then what should they pay for? And when the enemy came and the knights fought bravely, well, lost defeat, but fought for "their" people. Maybe someone sees it differently.
        8. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 4 May 2020 16: 53 New
          0
          Quote: ee2100
          You "pull" parts of the text and comment on these heaps

          I single out your main points and criticize them from the perspective of historical science.
          But you are probably right and it is time to move on to criticizing your structure as a whole, especially since you have managed to state it quite clearly.
          So, if I understand you correctly, then we have the following picture.
          At the beginning of the XIII century. the ancestors of modern Estonians differed significantly from their closest neighbors. For an unknown reason, (perhaps some genetic feature is already my speculation), Estonians (we will call them that for brevity) lived on their territory in separate families, without even having any rudimentary organization in the form of clans, tribes and tribal unions. Each family lived separately and in isolation, there were no large settlements, the structure and hierarchy of society in the form of elders, leaders, etc. was absent. In total, there were very few Estonians, extremely few - only 15-20 thousand. Large settlements on the territory of Estonia were built either by Russians, or Germans, or Danes; in fact, the population of these settlements was either one or the other, or a third - there were no ethnic Estonians among them. The Estonians did not participate in the conflicts between these parties (Germans, Danes and Russians), due to their small number and the impossibility of collecting them in the required quantity in a certain place, therefore the chronicle message about their death "without number" in the Battle of the Ice should be understood as "them there was not at all "," nobody died ". The battle itself took place with an overwhelming advantage of the Russians in numbers and, in fact, the Germans, going out to battle, did not expect to win, but fought simply for their good name and reputation, without hope of a final victory.
          Did I understand you correctly?
          Let's start with the fact that the total Estonian population at the beginning of the XIII century. Estonian researchers (J. Kakkom and E. Tarvel) are estimated at 110 - 120 thousand people. I myself have not read the works of these researchers; D. Khrustalev refers to them in the book "Northern Crusaders".
          The thesis about the lack of tribal centers and large fortified settlements among the Estonians is completely refuted by archeology - on the site of Tartu, Narva and Tallinn, there were definitely fortified Estonian settlements back in the XNUMXth century. when they had never heard of Russians or Germans in this region.
          The etymology of such names as Kolyvan, Rugodiv, Rakovor and others is clearly Estonian, you can see at least Fasmer. There are other studies on this subject.
          That is, in reality, we have a fairly large people living in a relatively compact territory, in addition, for 1242, for about 20 years, was under German rule, which represented the administrative and military elite of this land. With unimpeded advancement, a messenger traveling about 40 km. per day will reach from any point located in Estonia any other in a week. With the fan mailing of messengers, practiced at that time, the notification of all the farthest corners of the country, in this way, takes no more than a week. Given that the army is moving about two to three times slower, one month is enough to collect all the troops from all over the country.
          In practice, this, of course, is unlikely to succeed, but about sixty percent of the total mobilization resource can be collected.
          About the chances of the knights to win. It was generally the second case after Omovzhi when the Germans went into the open field against the Russians. Prior to this, the Russians made at least seven major campaigns on German territory, starting from the campaigns of Mstislav Udatny and never the Germans dared to meet them in an open field, and shamelessly sat around cities and castles and the problems of the local population, mercilessly plundered at that time, they did not care. You will say that, they say, it’s boiling up, so you decided to die heroically, but not to coward, not to drop the honor. Well, eight years before that, they supported their honor at Omovzh, they released the steam, they supported the honor. The second time there was no reason to risk it. Only one option remains - the forces were approximately equal and the Germans were completely counting on victory, which, by the way, is unequivocally shown by both the Russian annals and LRH.
          If I could not convince you of my innocence or at least shake you in yours, I can do nothing more with this. Therefore, I am ready to listen to your opinion on what has been said, but on my own behalf I can hardly add anything without repeating myself, but I do not like this.
          Sincerely.
        9. ee2100
          ee2100 4 May 2020 19: 05 New
          +1
          Naturally, we will remain in our opinion. No, Estonians are the same as their neighbors who switched to a farm life not from a good life, litter for goods tax. The transition to a farm culture of life is a way of protecting against aggressive and greedy enemies, perhaps at first they were Russians, then Danes knights. In the beginning, indeed, peoples lived as a tribal society. And they with varying degrees of success repulsed the raids with food, well, they raided themselves. Latvians, Lithuanians, residents of the present Leningrad region lived on the hutars. There is no particular genetics among Estonians.
          On etiology. I just wrote that in the Russian chronicles the original Russian names are used, and not about their etymological origin. Local residents built fortifications of wood. In place of Tartu, before the fortress was a fortification built by the Russians. In my answer to you, I wrote that the fortresses were not built from scratch. The settlements, before the advent of the knights and the beginning of the construction of fortresses, cannot be called cities. Fortresses are still not the same city. Then they will become. About the population. Estimates for the size of the population vary greatly. Some estimate them up to 200 thousand. As a rule, they use the method of recalculating the population growth rate in the opposite direction. I do not think this is right. 15-20 thousand is my estimated opinion. Maybe more, but not by much. About the participation of Estonians in the battles on the side of the knights. I just wrote that there were few of them.
          About why the knights fought against the Russians in a clear minority. I will remain with my opinion. I see no other explanation. And the fact that you wrote that at the beginning the knights sat in serfs only confirms my judgment. Chronicles and LRH differently assess the number of combatants. LRH cannot write that the battle was behind a previously losing one. We will not evaluate the mobilization resource and its effectiveness. These are our speculations.
          Enough wrote here. For the most part, I read your comments with pleasure.
          Sincerely, Alexander.
          .
        10. ee2100
          ee2100 4 May 2020 20: 34 New
          0
          PS Regarding mobilization. The role of the mobilization team was performed by knights who came to the aid of the besieged in the fortress. This is the most real situation.
  • AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 36 New
    +2
    Could not.

    Put yourself in the place of the Grand Master of the Knight's Order at the peak of the power of this order - you would also not accept into it knights who are unable to put on the battlefield anything but yourself.
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri 2 May 2020 13: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: AllBiBek
      Could not.

      Put yourself in the place of the Grand Master of the Knight's Order at the peak of the power of this order - you would also not accept into it knights who are unable to put on the battlefield anything but yourself.

      Those. in your opinion, in one spear there should be 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 ... namely, brothers-knights?
      Is it bold?
      1. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 54 New
        +3
        One spear - this, by analogy with the 90s - how many torpedoes a particular brother on the arrow could pull at the moment.

        Authorities without extras did not come to an arrow either then or not so long ago.

        The knight in the order at that time is a direct analogue of criminal authority, and the knight's order is a large organized crime group as it is. The resemblance is frightening.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 2 May 2020 14: 02 New
          +5
          Those. a spear is, nevertheless, 1 brother (knight) + several "torpedoes" (squires and combat servants),
          as I said earlier:
          Quote: HanTengri
          But there could be only one knight brother in the spear, i.e. monk. The rest are squires and other servants.

          What then break the spears?
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 2 May 2020 14: 14 New
            +3
            Comrade, so there’s nothing to break about (me and you at least).

            I inserted a comment on the comment so that it is as readable as possible for everyone, and more. I can’t understand how the resource engine is arranged, and from technical means - only the pipe ... (
          2. cost
            cost 2 May 2020 18: 20 New
            +3
            the "spear" of the knights, if I am not mistaken, is the banner of the sovereign. One could have 2-3 people in a spear, while the other had several dozen already with their own "spears"
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 14: 30 New
      +6
      did not accept
      They took it. Moreover, joining the Knightly Order was considered the first step for a successful career of non-successive Baron sons
      1. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek 2 May 2020 14: 49 New
        +3
        Well, you are a German baron with a castle and handmaidens, you have 10 sons from a bunch of women of various degrees of marriage with you, and so you managed to attach as many as three (due to your connections) in three different orders.

        Middle and junior - in the least promising areas, it is understandable. To Palestine. Everything there is sad and sad as of the first half of the 13th century.

        In the most promising direction - and there we had northern Europe at that time - I would also send the elder.

        Question: in whom would I, as the German baron, invest the most?
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 15: 16 New
          +5
          To the most promising direction
          The most promising direction at that time was the Order of the Temple of the Lord, they practically didn’t fight, they were engaged in logistics and banking. And in the wild Zhemait forests, a bloodlet can fly into the turnip with something heavy.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek 2 May 2020 18: 56 New
            +2
            You are not arguing like a German baron of the 13th century).

            Palestine is far away, and there arises a completely different aristocracy of completely different regions, you have in common with them - only vulgar Latin, which you - you are just a baron, and even German - you don’t know and what for it didn’t fall for you.

            But the жemaiti forests - they are almost completely near terrotirically, and this is real land with real potential peyzans, in contrast to the distant and incomprehensible Palestine.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 19: 21 New
              +2
              You are not arguing like a German baron of the 13th century).
              Here you, Anatoly, are partly right, historical psychology, as a discipline, is in its infancy. Any serious work in Russian, I have not yet met.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek 2 May 2020 20: 46 New
                0
                Google the work of Shkuratov, the source of psychology is taught on them. Vladimir Alexandrovich he is. Already a little outdated, but still quite.

                If you take the basics altogether - all the French mentalists of the times between the Worlds, then it was born.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 2 May 2020 22: 36 New
                0
                Thank you very much, Anatoly!
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 17: 39 New
        +6
        Quote: AllBiBek
        Question: in whom would I, as the German baron, invest the most?

        In yourself, beloved. smile
        To my estate, which I will leave to my heir. And these carriages - adventurers received a horse, weapons, some money and a faithful servant, and goodbye. Out of sight, out of mind. smile
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 18: 18 New
          +4
          And these carriages - adventurers received a horse, weapons, some money and a faithful servant, and goodbye.
          And the cat in boots. laughing
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 2 May 2020 19: 55 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            And the cat in boots.

            Why in boots? The sensible cat will get its own boots in battle, well, or where the thread is. laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 20: 01 New
              +3
              Chet doesn’t hurt the sensible cat from Perro himself got his boots, from the owner he backed away laughing
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 2 May 2020 20: 08 New
              +3
              So I got it! Means talented, a rascal! A small adjustment to the behavior, shovel handle slipper and will be good. laughing
            3. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 20: 10 New
              +3
              Now you local looters lynch! wassat
            4. Hantengri
              Hantengri 2 May 2020 20: 18 New
              +3
              Better this way, "than from vodka and from colds"coronavirus. wassat
        2. bubalik
          bubalik 2 May 2020 21: 05 New
          +4
          not painful sensible cat
          ,,, here is the most sensible and economic laughing

          We have the means. We are not smart enough. I told this hunter - buy yourself boots. What is he?
          -What he?
          ― Fuck, I bought sneakers. They are, they say, more beautiful. wassat
  • Engineer
    Engineer 2 May 2020 22: 25 New
    +3
    Anton is definitely right. They could
    Briefly on the social composition of the Teutonic Knights. Namely the brothers (in the original brethren) of Nicholas in the Ospreyevsky Warrior 124
    12 percent is the highest aristocracy
    7 percent hereditary knights
    Over 75 percent of miniseries. That is, it was the small knights who did not have a flax as such, but received a piece of land for performing administrative duties in the service of the master.
    Statistics for 1250-1309
    Of the first 15 grandmasters
    One was the son of a middle-class burgher, four ministers
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 2 May 2020 08: 14 New
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: sergo1914
    In the author’s picture, it’s likely that the dogs will not sink - the knights, but the lake. The author, he is a historian. He knows better.

    And even easier - read an article in the newspaper PRAVDA. She is in front of you ...


    You are somehow strongly imprisoned on the newspaper PRAVDA for the historian. Are there other sources of information?
    PS No, of course, I am for the Soviet Union, but the Penza Komsomolets is not considered.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 50 New
      +3
      Quote: sergo1914
      but the Penza Komsomolets is not considered

      Right! There was no article on this subject ...
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 2 May 2020 08: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: sergo1914
    In the author’s picture, it’s likely that the dogs will not sink - the knights, but the lake. The author, he is a historian. He knows better.

    Without a doubt, Sergey. But you yourself can open the texts of the chronicles and read them. You will know exactly as much as I do. And there is no need to learn "to be a historian", write all sorts of books, defend dissertations. Exactly the same number ... And it's even easier to read an article in the PRAVDA newspaper. She is in front of you ...


    Why not write about the “Battle of the Peoples” about Zolotarevskaya? Well, if you are truly a historian, not only the CPSU. A topic near you. White spots - a wagon. Do you need to rinse the ancient binder? You still rinse the materials of the EP congresses.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 48 New
      +3
      Quote: sergo1914
      Why not write about the “Battle of the Peoples” about Zolotarevskaya?

      So wrote. There is about her my article on VO with a bunch of photos. Or do you not know how to use a search engine?
      Quote: sergo1914
      You still rinse the materials of the EP congresses.

      Not interested.
      But the 17th Congress of the CPSU) b) - interesting
      1. sergo1914
        sergo1914 2 May 2020 20: 04 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        So wrote. There is about her my article on VO with a bunch of photos. Or do you not know how to use a search engine?


        Have not found. A reference to us, wild.
      2. sergo1914
        sergo1914 2 May 2020 20: 11 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr

        So wrote. There is about her my article on VO with a bunch of photos. Or do you not know how to use a search engine?


        Taki found. 2016 year. Heap ??? Photos? Delusions in conclusions? P - professionalism. However, these are not congresses to outline.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 2 May 2020 06: 10 New
    +1
    Eisenstein’s film “Alexander Nevsky”, which was first released, then, after August 23, 1939, removed from the box and put on a shelf
    Yes, because it was removed that the Soviet leadership had the intelligence not to aggravate relations with Germany out of the blue for even
    Until 1966, "Alexander Nevsky" was banned in the Federal Republic of Germany and could not be publicly displayed, as it was considered an "anti-German" special government commission.
    And even then, after the 23rd in the field and "in distant garrisons" it was played just like that.
    Well, criticism by the author of artistic techniques is ridiculous.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 06: 59 New
      +3
      That is, this is for you an example of historical painting? You need a little bit ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 2 May 2020 07: 14 New
        +1
        That is, for you, artistic techniques, "an example of historical painting" and the obvious failure of an artist are the same? Your level is not high ...
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 07: 16 New
          +1
          Is it a low level to see that a person does not know how to draw? Where did the others look then? It turns out that it is not high ... But then a huge mass of people get it completely below the baseboard. It quite suits me.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 2 May 2020 08: 12 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            To see that a person cannot draw

            Categoricality, I think, is not needed.

            who wrote. for example this:

            can or not?
            1. Same lech
              Same lech 2 May 2020 08: 16 New
              0
              The antennae will be painted on and the spilled Adolf will turn out ... no way to self-portrait?
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 17 New
                +3
                Yes, you are right, this is a self-portrait of 1907, when Picasso became interested in cubism. hiAlthough the chronology is * African * period.
              2. Avior
                Avior 2 May 2020 09: 20 New
                +2
                And if you do not paint the antennae, who will succeed?
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 28 New
                  +1
                  Intrigued. So who? what
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 2 May 2020 09: 43 New
                    +3
                    This? Looks like?
                    Some kind of Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuseno Maria de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santisima Trinidad Martir Patricio Ruis and someone else there, you will not remember ...

                    Cap removed - poured smile
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 2 May 2020 11: 50 New
                      +1
                      A certain Picasso? An amazing resemblance! Double ??? laughing laughing laughing
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 2 May 2020 12: 27 New
                        +1
                        Yes, something else after the “and” was still there, he himself remembered his name for sure, I wonder?
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 03 New
              +3
              Good morning Andrey!
              Picasso said very well:
              - * I can draw like Raphael, but it will take me a lifetime to learn how to draw like a child *.
              How do you think the Master cunningly?
              In general, his paintings come in first place among * abductions *. Yes and damn expensive they are. This is to your question about the ability to draw! hi
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 2 May 2020 10: 33 New
                +4
                Quote: Phil77
                Good morning Andrey!
                Picasso said very well:
                - * I can draw like Raphael, but it will take me a lifetime to learn how to draw like a child *.
                How do you think the Master cunningly?

                Greetings, Sergey!

                Why should the Master be cunning? He feels that way ...
                Quote: Phil77
                In general, his paintings come in first place among * abductions *. Yes and damn expensive they are. This is to your question about the ability to draw!

                Is a monetary value an indicator of excellence?

                The pinnacle, for example, of Tchaikovsky's work is sacred music. For example, "Prayer for Russia". But what kind of money is there?

                piercingly beautiful music, at least a minute listen is a fairy tale!
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 2 May 2020 11: 49 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Is a monetary value an indicator of excellence?

                  Oh, and many will disagree with you, Andrei! This is one of the assessments and important! Name at least one artist, musician, any representative of the art world who would not consider himself a genius? But ... some people they are ready to give millions of dollars, but it’s a pity for someone’s work. Although, according to his own statements, he is genius. So where is the universal evaluation criterion?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 2 May 2020 13: 02 New
                    +1
                    [
                    Quote: Phil77
                    But ... for the canvas of one, some people are ready to give millions of dollars, but for the work of someone it’s a pity
                    . and, for example, Vincent van Gogh?
                    No one bought his paintings during his lifetime. today is millions of dollars

                    Those. there are no single universal criteria, in my opinion ...

                    Someone cares about the photographic accuracy of many details, and for someone, the feelings and mood, said in just a few touches ...

                    This topic is limitless.
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 2 May 2020 13: 07 New
                      +2
                      Vincent was not quite healthy. In terms of health. Mental.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 2 May 2020 13: 46 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Vincent was not quite healthy. In terms of health. Mental.

                        all geniuses are NOT the norm.

                        The norm is NOT geniuses.

                        Edgar Poe, Bach, Vermeer, and others are recognized only after death ...
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 2 May 2020 13: 52 New
                        +5
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        all geniuses are NOT the norm.

                        Norm-NOT geniuses

                        Ek, you formulated something! Virtuoso! Just like the immortal:
                        - * And who does not drink, tell me!
                        No, I insist! * laughing
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 13: 59 New
                        +5
                        Andrew! hi
                        And what are the criteria for genius? For example, is Socrates a genius?
                      4. Phil77
                        Phil77 2 May 2020 14: 05 New
                        +6
                        Anton, let me please!
                        Answer:
                        -Genius, because he finished badly! laughing
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 14: 09 New
                        +7
                        Aha
                        "Who ended his life tragically,
                        That true poet "(C)
                      6. Phil77
                        Phil77 2 May 2020 14: 30 New
                        +3
                        * A hussar who is not killed at the age of 30 is not a hussar, but shit! * Lassalle, the division general, Frenchman, cavalryman, dashing grunt, was killed at the Battle of Wagram.
                      7. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 15: 26 New
                        +4
                        "He is already 18, and he has not yet been killed. It is a shame in front of people!" (E. Lukin "Missionaries")
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 2 May 2020 19: 47 New
                    +3
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    Andrew! hi
                    And what are the criteria for genius? For example, is Socrates a genius?

                    Hello. Anton! hi

                    immense theme ...

                    I would dare, as a first approximation, to propose this: this is an outstanding, extraordinary unusual ability of a personrecourse

                    Yu...
                  3. Phil77
                    Phil77 2 May 2020 19: 59 New
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    suggest this: it is an outstanding, extraordinary unusual ability of a person

                    In some field of activity.
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 2 May 2020 14: 21 New
                +2
                Quote: Olgovich
                Edgar Allan Poe, Bach, Vermeer and others are recognized only after death ..

                Vermeer occupied only its niche among the * Dutch *. By the end of his life he was in poverty, but the war with France was to blame. Not before the trade in painting was.
                Bach lived a normal such musical life, was in great demand, and, on the whole, he did not need it.
                Po? Well, everything is clear here, a lover of mysticism and, importantly, an alogogol could not end his life otherwise. But is he also a genius?
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 2 May 2020 14: 45 New
                +4
                Basically, Poe is the founder of the genres "horor" and "noir"
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 2 May 2020 14: 11 New
        +2
        Interestingly, how much will you give for: Picasso and Repin? Chagall or Serov?
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 2 May 2020 14: 13 New
          +4
          Joke, please!? I will answer according to the classics:
          - * Where is the money, Zin? .... *
  • Avior
    Avior 2 May 2020 09: 24 New
    +3
    I would not argue that he does not know how to draw
    From your submission, I looked at his naked girls, everything is in place - both hands and everything else that naked girls are supposed to smile
    It’s just that the author’s acquaintance with the question of naked girls is better than with history
    You know, it is better studied when you yourself touch the subject of study with your hands.
    Well, where would he feel the knights of that time? smile
  • Barmaleyka
    Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 07: 23 New
    +2
    the apator reminded me of critics from flibusta and the lightsaber is not like that and the portal is not working properly
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 07: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: Barmaleyka
      the light sword is not the same and the portal is not working properly

      In 1242, lightsabers? You draw some strange parallels ...
      1. Barmaleyka
        Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 07: 58 New
        0
        one parallel, write at least a kitty, and then take up criticism
        1. Gost2012
          Gost2012 2 May 2020 09: 11 New
          +3
          Quote: Barmaleyka
          one parallel, write at least a kitty, and then take up criticism

          In your exchange of views with the author, the truth, as always, is about the middle. Indeed, it is better to leave criticism of the art part to those who can reasonably bring, g ... but the picture and the hands of the character and artist are not in place, or not g ... but, and such a conceptual-artistic vision, giving the picture something attached, but because it is uniquely highly artistic, despite the absence of the character’s hand.
          But at the expense of the depicted details, the artist should be aware and not fantasize, the details should correspond to the era, otherwise we will soon go to the Battle of Kursk with the cover of helicopters and starships.
          1. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 09: 21 New
            +3
            Quote: Gost2012
            the artist must be aware and not fantasize

            wrong, the artist very often writes allegories, antique armor on the characters of the Renaissance and much more
            1. Fat
              Fat 2 May 2020 16: 10 New
              +1
              Quote: Barmaleyka
              Quote: Gost2012
              the artist must be aware and not fantasize

              wrong, the artist very often writes allegories, antique armor on the characters of the Renaissance and much more

              Vladimir, monument to A.V. Suvorov in St. Petersburg Kozlovsky M.I. and Minin with Pozharsky Martos just right ... Both monuments are Russian classicism of the early 19th century, just a "rampant academic allegory" ...
              Realism wasn’t lying around yet. But if you called the master a realist, then you really have to correspond .. repeat fellow It is not worth it for the sake of expression and composition to sin strongly against realism is not worth it, you can even "leave" in sur, before the "premonition of civil war" ... yes
            2. Gost2012
              Gost2012 2 May 2020 18: 46 New
              +3
              Quote: Barmaleyka
              Quote: Gost2012
              the artist must be aware and not fantasize

              wrong, the artist very often writes allegories, antique armor on the characters of the Renaissance and much more

              It’s true, but such paintings are called so - Allegory of Spring, etc.
              In addition, depicting an individual hero, the artist, and we include the sculptor, as if emphasizes his merits and compares with the heroes of antiquity, because the armor is antique, i.e. much more ancient than the portrayed hero, and can even be mythical.
              If the artist is not a cubist and other modern avant-garde artist, whose vision is often available only to him and a couple of art critics at auction, while the indicated artist depicts a non-fiction historical event, and not an individual character, then my opinion, very, very far from culture, is that the details should correspond to the era.
              Otherwise, the fragment from the air defense loses its sarcastic tone, and the situation has the right to be:
              quote: "With the big picture, the situation was even gloomier. Its author was a certain Lukas Saprykin - apparently, one of the bohemian friends
              Srakandaev. It was called the Battle of Kursk. This alone was enough to spoil Stype's mood for the whole day. But the way exactly Lukas Saprykin saw the Battle of Kursk caused Styopa to have a spasm of atrial melancholy. The painting depicted a pink thirty-four, standing in the middle of a field in which huge tigers roamed. A naked man in a Batman mask sat on all fours on the turret of the tank and shit right into the open hatch. "
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 2 May 2020 19: 19 New
                -1
                Quote: Gost2012
                "The situation with the big picture was even gloomier. Its author was a certain Lukas Saprykin - apparently one of his bohemian friends
                Srakandaeva.

                Well, Pelevin scoffed at Skorondaev, and why did historical characters not please someone there?
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 22 New
            +1
            Bravo! Commentary on the case! good good good
          3. The comment was deleted.
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 2 May 2020 11: 06 New
            +3
            Quote: Gost2012
            But at the expense of the depicted details, the artist should be in the know and not fantasize, the details should fit era,

            Are you talking about this?


            There are also memorials to Minin and Pozharsky, etc., etc.
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 15: 39 New
          +3
          Quote: Barmaleyka
          write at least a cat, and then take up criticism

          Well, according to your logic, it turns out that here too only those who wrote articles can leave critical comments? Think about it.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Barmaleyka
            Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 16: 05 New
            -1
            you perfectly understood what I mean and what
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 16: 13 New
              +3
              I understand that in your opinion, in order to criticize an artist you need to be an artist. Those who did not draw a single cat should be silent. Otherwise, your message is difficult to interpret.
              1. Barmaleyka
                Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 16: 17 New
                -5
                well, at worst, at least something to understand
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 May 2020 16: 48 New
                  +6
                  Well, the author understands "something". Moreover, the topic of the article is the correspondence of the content of the paintings to modern historical knowledge, and the author certainly understands this. If you fight amateurism, then you have started from the wrong end.
                  1. Barmaleyka
                    Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 19: 07 New
                    -3
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Well, the author understands "something".

                    judging by the reasoning just from the series "lightsaber of the wrong design"
        3. kalibr
          2 May 2020 17: 42 New
          +2
          Quote: Barmaleyka
          one parallel, write at least a kitty, and then take up criticism

          And here at VO there were my drawings, made in the 9th grade. Some kind of article about Indians. And it is quite drawn ... But I read cultural studies from 1995 to 2017, and there are many topics on art and you need to understand them. And besides, I do not consider the artistic merit of the paintings, but the armor and weapons for compliance with historical realities, and the canvases themselves - for historical news. There was someone, a self-seeker, who saw the regiment of God "in the air", but I do not urge him to paint.
      2. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 2 May 2020 07: 58 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Barmaleyka
        the light sword is not the same and the portal is not working properly

        In 1242, lightsabers? You draw some strange parallels ...

        their helmets radiated light.
        Elder Livonian Rhymed Chronicle
        And the primary sources at the same time speak directly about light-emitting elements of armor laughing
      3. Phil77
        Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 13 New
        +3
        Good morning Vyacheslav Olegovich! With the light hand of Andrei and the Picasso he mentioned, I offer an easy sur. But take it and write the Master a couple of paintings on battle scenes! Hence the question, would you be interested * to make out * his paintings? I understand that this is from the category * if, yes, if *, but ... hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 09: 30 New
          +4
          Sergei! hi
          But take it and write Master a couple of paintings on battle scenes!

          Well, he wrote one. "Guernica".
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 35 New
            +3
            Greetings Anton! Conditionally, conditionally battle. In my opinion, the picture is soon about the consequences, about the barbarism of the war.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 09: 39 New
              +4
              Well, probably. Like Vereshchagin's "Apotheosis".
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 2 May 2020 09: 42 New
                +2
                Yes !!! According to the plan of the artists, that’s how!
          2. Liam
            Liam 2 May 2020 09: 58 New
            +2
            http://picassolive.ru/blog/genres/batalnye-szeny/
          3. Fat
            Fat 2 May 2020 11: 36 New
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Sergei! hi
            But take it and write Master a couple of paintings on battle scenes!

            Well, he wrote one. "Guernica".

            Well ... not alone, Anton. Bullfighting Picasso loved to write ...
            "War" (War And Peace). Painting of the chapel in Vallauris
            "Abduction of the Sabiyanok"
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 2 May 2020 11: 40 New
              +4
              Thank you! hi
              I am not a great connoisseur of Picasso, so I remembered the famous. I really like the impressionists.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 2 May 2020 14: 02 New
                +3
                I join: I myself like impressionism. And various variations: cubism or avant-garde is past me.
        2. BAI
          BAI 2 May 2020 15: 42 New
          +4
          Are you proposing to consider how "Guernica" corresponds to reality?

          Classic military plot.
        3. kalibr
          2 May 2020 17: 36 New
          +3
          Where there are no edged weapons and armor, I completely pass ...
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 08: 09 New
      +5
      Amazing! Not only does someone sculpt criticism on "filibust", there are people who read it !!! How low humanity has fallen! laughing
      1. Barmaleyka
        Barmaleyka 2 May 2020 08: 25 New
        -2
        are you in vain, it is very interesting to read especially to famous works
        By the way, you read the criticism of aptor
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 08: 37 New
          +5
          The fact is that I am interested in reading criticism written by experts, as it was, for example, in the magazine "If". And the holivar on the topic "Divov wrote" or "Pekhov let his wife to the keyboard" do not attract at all.
  • Same lech
    Same lech 2 May 2020 07: 48 New
    +1
    Has anyone tried fully armed to fight on slippery ice?
    Any careless movement and balance is lost. Moreover, waving your arms you won’t be able to scatter too much ... I suppose a small number of soldiers really fought on the ice.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 07: 55 New
      +4
      Well, in spring the ice is nostril and not too slippery ...
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      I suppose a small number of warriors really fought on the ice.
      The ice was covered in blood. That's all the annals tell us. But whether this is a fact or an artistic exaggeration is impossible to say.
      1. Same lech
        Same lech 2 May 2020 07: 57 New
        -1
        Well, in spring the ice is nostril and not too slippery ...

        And did anyone study the state of ice at the time of the battle? ... in what condition was it? ... the artist’s picture is not accepted as an argument. hi
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 07: 58 New
          +4
          Quote: The same LYOKHA
          And did anyone study the state of ice at the time of the battle? ... in what condition it was ... the artist’s picture is not accepted as an argument.

          Well, where did Alex come from? All that we have is the texts of the annals. And that’s all!
          1. Same lech
            Same lech 2 May 2020 07: 59 New
            +2
            So there is room for imagination and speculation ... sadness.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 09: 10 New
              +4
              Quote: The same Lech
              So there is room for imagination and speculation ... sadness.

              Our whole story, one sheer sadness !!! Try to prove to the modern “child” that color photography has conquered your world in your memory, and where is “photo-video fixation” and “first-person event geolocation” !!! With ten thousand likes - dumb !!! So photo montage means !!! am
              laughing
              1. Same lech
                Same lech 2 May 2020 09: 15 New
                +1
                Well, by indirect signs, one can assume something ... for example, by rock layers in this area at this time period ... it would be nice to find the remains of a tree ... you can determine the duration and duration of climate changes from the rings using, for example, radiocarbon analysis ... finding direct evidence is how to win the lottery.
    2. BAI
      BAI 2 May 2020 15: 45 New
      +3
      The ice is covered with snow. Not slippery anymore. Slippery is the first ice when there is still no snow and Baikal, where the snow is constantly blown away by the wind and does not have time to freeze to ice.
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 2 May 2020 07: 54 New
    +5
    Well, it doesn’t happen and it wasn’t necessary to draw like that! And he painted, saw that he was mistaken, so it was possible and necessary to redraw, and not make people laugh who are looking at such "revelations" of our "artists"!
    Vyacheslav Olegovich! Do not shoot tappers, they play as they can. Well, what can you do if a thousand mediocre ones have a hundred capable, a dozen talented and one brilliant? but then everyone feels the craving for an easel! Again, let’s leave the truth to the reenactors and historians, and the main thing for the artist is to cause us some feelings
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 07: 59 New
      +4
      Quote: KVU-NSVD
      can you do if a thousand mediocre ones have a hundred capable, a dozen talented and one brilliant?

      That you are right. Without some, there would be no others!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 2 May 2020 07: 56 New
    +5
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I will clarify. The mosaic panel shown in the last illustration is located in the lobby of the metro station "Ploschad Alksandra Nevskogo 2"
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 2 May 2020 09: 12 New
      +3
      Be sure to make a note! Thanks Anton!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 09: 22 New
        +3
        You're welcome Vlad!
        A higher commentary was written out of those considerations that there might be people who are unaware of the existence of two metro stations of the same name (the first does not constitute anything interesting), but who are ready to convict Shpakovsky of a lie.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 09: 47 New
        +3
        By the way, mosaics of the St. Petersburg metro are generally a very interesting topic.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 2 May 2020 20: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          St. Petersburg metro, generally a very interesting topic.

          Anton! And how did it happen that two metro stations with the same name appeared?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 2 May 2020 20: 30 New
            +2
            Well, I won’t tell the story of the creation. Simply, this station is a transfer station, two entrances at a distance of 200 meters, but the branches are different and were built at different times. Apparently during the construction of the second, they decided not to bother with the name. We with toponomics also do not have such equilibra.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 2 May 2020 20: 44 New
              0
              When designing it had the name * Red Square *.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 2 May 2020 20: 51 New
                +2
                Which is strange because the second station is not even located on the square. But on Sennaya, 3 stations and all with different names.
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 2 May 2020 09: 38 New
    +5
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Why are we hard at work refuting the existence of the latter?

    Who is involved? From the texts of the annals we know what it was. That the dead fell into the grass, that from the side of the Livonian rhymed chronicle reports of 6 dead brothers, our annals are first about 400, then about 500. But no one disputes the battle.

    No wonder. The Livonian chronicle records the killed knights, and of noble origin, and the Novgorod annals - in general, all the dead soldiers of the enemy. I note that in Europe at that time, only noble warriors were considered worthy of mention, and not even all knights were honored
    commemoration. European chivalry is heterogeneous - there were also noble rich knights, and there was also a midnight murmur, which had nothing but a horse, inferior armor and a sword with a spear. They were not always included in the list of losses, and even infantrymen from the common people and mercenaries were not marked at all in the list of losses, since they were not considered people either. The order army had a lot of Baltic militias forcibly driven into the war, no one counted how many of them died in the battle, and did not intend to count it.
  • awdrgy
    awdrgy 2 May 2020 10: 11 New
    +3
    I would like to note that on old Russian miniatures there is a place to be both "Sarmatian" grip of the spear and "Persian" grip of the sword, therefore Roerich's painting NK may not be so decorative And this of course raises certain questions that still remain questions
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 58 New
      -1
      And voice it, if not difficult.

      There are not so many options, how and why they held on to a spear or a sword.
      1. awdrgy
        awdrgy 2 May 2020 15: 27 New
        +3
        The "Sarmatian" grip of the spear with two hands The horse is controlled by the legs (I assume that special training is required to control the horse) And the two-handed grip provides greater "flexibility" of techniques with a spear especially long and heavy. as a "stop" in the upper part of the guard (sometimes this part is absent or small) or a finger slightly to the side along (there are many options, but in general not in girth) It seems Saladin (I will not lie) - "Look who is in front of you and first cut your finger" I think such a grip is necessary to give the sword the most accurate trajectory of the blow and suggests that in such a school stabbing blows were used less often. In addition, apparently it had a more developed fencing technique (including a more "flexible" possibility of a reverse grip) It is also interesting that one of the throwing techniques knife provides a similar grip on the handle
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 17: 30 New
          +4
          Quote: awdrgy
          It seems Saladin (I won't lie) - "Look who is in front of you and first cut your finger"

          His associate is Osama-ibn-Munkyz! "Book of edification"
          1. awdrgy
            awdrgy 2 May 2020 18: 48 New
            +1
            Thanks I just read for a long time and it was too lazy to look at it)
        2. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 3 May 2020 00: 08 New
          0
          Yeah, I got where it came from.

          "The Sarmatian grip of the spear" is a reconstruction of the cataphracts, about whom it is known that they carried a spear on a belt behind their backs, and the "Persian grip" is from such a well-known dish with a miniature "Varahran on the hunt", he chops the neck of a wild boar with a blade taken in such a grip ...

          There, everything is not so much more complicated in both cases. To develop?
          1. awdrgy
            awdrgy 3 May 2020 11: 15 New
            +1
            Of course, as a person who is keen on history, this topic is very interesting to me.
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek 3 May 2020 12: 11 New
              +2
              Cataphracts as a branch of the army at one time have one very significant minus; slowness. Felt armor provided good protection against arrows and darts, but it was unrealistic to actively move in it. Plus, there was always the option to fly out of the saddle, the Sarmatians never thought of raising the back bow to better hold the rider's ass.

              So - the spear was eventually hung on the neck and guided with both hands. It was directed, could not be held.

              The Byzantines fixed this bug among the Klibanaris (stupidly dressed them in lamellar armor), but - they never became a numerous type of cavalry. They cost a lot.

              Regarding the "Persian grip" - this also refers to the Sarmatians. Their cavalry sword for their time is a breakthrough, of course, but - it bent on its knee without difficulty. Therefore, they had to cut them very carefully and precisely, the atom in number, apparently, gagging with a grip at the moment of impact.

              Long swords eventually lasted at the same Sarmatians literally a century and a half, and then sharply shortened. And very soon, the first sabers whistled in the steppes ...
              1. awdrgy
                awdrgy 3 May 2020 13: 38 New
                +1
                thanks for the info
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek 3 May 2020 14: 10 New
                  +2
                  Yes, no matter what).

                  According to the Sarmatians, a lot of things have been written and published among the Poles (they had at one time a massive bzik recording themselves in their direct descendants, the Alans and Ossetians are indignant!), From translated into Russian and what is really found on the net - look for Sulemirsky (I think Tadeusz) . For a general idea of ​​the materiel of the question - it is enough.

                  He wouldn’t record Ugrians in Sarmatians, and would not write about cultures that he didn’t work with materially - he wouldn’t have a price ...
                  1. awdrgy
                    awdrgy 3 May 2020 14: 19 New
                    +1
                    Well, Ilovaisky was also mistaken on many issues (this became clear with the development of molecular DNA genealogy), but this does not negate the fact that he is a great scientist historian of his time. Only the "polemic on the Bulgarian-Hunnic issue" is worth
  • bubalik
    bubalik 2 May 2020 10: 17 New
    +5
    Pravda, which April 5, 1942, that is, just in time for the anniversary, published an article devoted to this event. Other material
    ,,, from another newspaper smile
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 10: 43 New
      +5
      I always wondered where this meme came from: "knight dogs". Why not "shameful wolves"?
      1. Liam
        Liam 2 May 2020 10: 46 New
        +6
        According to Wikipedia
        Dogs-knights - an epithet used in relation to the knights of the Teutonic Order. Represents an erroneous translation with it. "Reitershunde».
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 10: 55 New
          +3
          Thank! I took an interest in the history of the issue. Damn, even the founder could not be translated normally!
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Liam
            Liam 2 May 2020 20: 35 New
            +3
            It became most interesting hi
            In the age of the Internet, the right question is more important than the correct answer)
        2. awdrgy
          awdrgy 2 May 2020 12: 14 New
          +2
          It is unlikely that the error is rather subtle trolling of those times)
      2. BAI
        BAI 2 May 2020 15: 49 New
        +3
        The dog is an old curse word. Hence the abusive "son of a dog". This is to comply with the rules of the site.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 2 May 2020 15: 54 New
          +1
          No, Liam's colleague pointed out the correct vector. This is a translation of one of the works of K. Marx.
        2. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek 3 May 2020 12: 43 New
          0
          I will say more, translated into Persian "son of a dog" will sound like "peder suhte".

          So this is a word, a campaign from dog abusive epithets.
    2. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 28 New
      +3
      Thank you, dear Sergey! For the text from the newspaper ...
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 2 May 2020 10: 31 New
    +4
    Regarding the first illustration.
    The very fact of Birger Magnusson's participation in this campaign is doubtful and is not confirmed by anything other than the message in the Novgorod First Annals. In addition, Birger became a jarl in 1248.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      The very fact of Birger Magnusson's participation in this campaign is doubtful and is not confirmed by anything other than the message in the Novgorod First Annals. In addition, Birger became a jarl in 1248.

      Oh, yes, Anton! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 2 May 2020 17: 35 New
        +3
        I’ve shoveled a lot of information on this subject when I wrote an essay. In general, I strongly doubt that one of the Swedish Jarls was leading this adventure. Not before that they were. At home, a permanent civil war
        1. kalibr
          2 May 2020 17: 53 New
          +3
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          I’ve shoveled a lot of information on this subject when I wrote an essay. In general, I strongly doubt that one of the Swedish Jarls was leading this adventure. Not before that they were. At home, a permanent civil war

          This is how they become specialists ... They "crawl" into several "narrow cracks" and ... away we go. Absolutely true campaign!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 2 May 2020 18: 00 New
            +1
            In fairness, it should be noted that Birger had a famous scar, but its origin is unknown.
            1. kalibr
              2 May 2020 18: 22 New
              +2
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              In fairness, it should be noted that Birger had a famous scar, but its origin is unknown.

              Mine is, raise two hands up and fall the grass ... Yours is mine not to chop!
  • Fat
    Fat 2 May 2020 11: 03 New
    +5
    "Battle on the Ice". V.A. Serov, 1942. Here, of course, everything is more interesting. We will not talk about faces, poses - they are “full of anger and determination”, as it should be. But this is probably the first time that the artist has drawn helmets ... from the movie. Yes, look at the “miracle man” in the center of the canvas, with a round shield and a sword. On his head is a “helmet" exactly like the movie "Alexander Nevsky". Topfhelm with horns is also lying around, well, how could it be without them. And so I would like to ask: in which of the branches of Mostorg, which sells hardware, the author looked at the ax in the guy’s hand in a sheepskin coat, with which he chopped a German in the snow? Well, the Armory Chamber in Moscow, the State Historical Museum in Moscow, and the difference between the battle axes and the workers that were in use in the XNUMXth century was already known. But no, he did not bother with all this. The simpler the better!

    Hello, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    This painting was written by Vladimir Serov in besieged Leningrad ... Of course, there was little at hand except for the movie ... Do not judge this classic of socialist realism and, later, the president of the Academy of Arts of the USSR too strict for this picture is too strict. But the fact that he gave excessive freedom to subsequent masters is certainly bad request
    For example, I really like Serov's illustrations for "The Lay of Igor's Campaign", although there are probably bloopers there too.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 2 May 2020 13: 51 New
      +3
      Reasonable remark. Serov needed to write, but in order to write you need to at least mentally imagine the image and the film gives such images
    2. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Thick
      Of course, there was little at hand except for the movie ..

      There were books, corresponding, as far back as 1895, which were in the Bible. Saltykov-Shchedrin. But there was also a social order, set out in the movie Treasure Island (1938), the very beginning (look). And under this "atmosphere" he made a picture.
      1. Fat
        Fat 2 May 2020 20: 52 New
        +1
        I doubt that von Winkler's "Weapons" could seriously help anything, there is very little about 13th century weapons. Do you mean something else? Treasure Island '38 ... There seems to be an uprising in 1798, the Irish commander is a bit like Wolf Ton. Sinn Fein ... World Revolution as a Social Order? Well, I really don't know ... not for '37, when the film was filmed.
        1. kalibr
          3 May 2020 06: 27 New
          +1
          Social Cossack - UNdemanding and Mass Heroism. No gunpowder - get from the enemy. There are no weapons - there are teeth, there are nails !!! We are beaten only by superior forces. We are with skill and ability. Well, etc. In addition to Winkler, there were wonderful picture albums ...
  • Fishery
    Fishery 2 May 2020 11: 41 New
    +6
    I think the armor in the paintings appeared as an analogy of the tanks of the Germans) propaganda technique, such as our grandfathers defeated knights in armor) with courage and ingenuity) well, we can, it’s hard to imagine that people did not know that the weapons of the warring parties at that time were basically the same, chain mail, bracers, helmet and shield) that's all)

    I agree with the author completely
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: Tonya
      I think the armor in the paintings appeared as an analogy of the tanks of the Germans) propaganda technique, such as our grandfathers defeated knights in armor) with courage and ingenuity) well, we can, it’s hard to imagine that people did not know that the weapons of the warring parties at that time were basically the same, chain mail, bracers, helmet and shield)

      Exactly! It was a propaganda trick to show that, they say, we are in bast shoes, and the "armored" Germans were beaten. And if those are in chain mail, we are in chain mail ... well, what is there to be especially proud of?
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 2 May 2020 12: 36 New
    +3
    In defense of the artists, I can say that they do not paint a textbook on history, but write a work of art, where history is only a background for conveying the feelings, experiences, emotions of the characters and the artist himself. For example, in the famous painting by V.I. Surikov's "Passage of Suvorov through the Alps" has a number of incongruities. For example, soldiers descend an ice slope with bayonets attached, and even the dumbest commander will not be able to transport a heavy cannon in a crowd of soldiers in this way. Surikov was told this, to which he replied that to create an artistic image, attached bayonets and a cannon are needed, and whether this corresponds to reality, he is of little interest. So the artists listed in the article were deeply purple, what shape of the ax, whether the helmets correspond to the Livonian armor of the 13th century and whether the crossbow is being pulled correctly.
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Andrey Krasnoyarsky
      So the artists listed in the article were deeply purple, what shape the ax was, whether the helmets fit the 13th century Livonian armor, and whether the crossbow was pulled correctly.

      And very bad. It is time to learn how to talentfully draw what was real (weapons and ammunition) and convey the pathos of the event.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 2 May 2020 13: 14 New
    +2
    Quote: Bar1
    all these pictures are of no historical value and are intended only to propagate the existing version of history.

    In your version of the story, does Alexander Nevsky sit on the stove¿?
  • AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 2 May 2020 13: 25 New
    +1
    I didn’t find my favorite illustration for the topic: all that I know about it was on the calendar for 1992 and the anniversary of the event, and there is a completely hellish and extremely detailed drawing of everything that can be done in Europe for five hundred years in Russia.

    The author was clearly inspired by the work of Glazunov, he was then in fashion.

    I did not find it on the network either.

    Maybe someone came across?
    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 16 New
      +1
      Quote: AllBiBek
      The author was clearly inspired by the work of Glazunov, he was then in fashion.

      No. I just do not like his work. I like the works of I. Dzysya
  • vladcub
    vladcub 2 May 2020 13: 43 New
    +4
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Olgovich
    What kind of battle ax can a militia have?

    Right. But at that time there were no working axes of this form. ALL forms of axes, both combat and non-combat, are known from archaeological finds.

    V.O., you may be well-known to you, but a person far from history will completely decide that an ax and an ax in Africa
  • BAI
    BAI 2 May 2020 15: 12 New
    +6
    and the difference between battle axes and workers,

    The militia’s hand has any kind of ax, but not a worker (carpenter). This is some kind of hybrid. The blade is like that of a carpenter’s, and the attachment to an ax is like a butcher’s or a pot’s.
    At the top are carpentry axes; in the center is a potion. Below (the lowest) - butcher. Pay attention to the mount to the ax. The ax will not fly off under any circumstances.


    1. kalibr
      2 May 2020 17: 14 New
      +3
      I appreciate your thoroughness!
  • kalibr
    2 May 2020 17: 12 New
    +3
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    To the most promising direction
    The most promising direction at that time was the Order of the Temple of the Lord, they practically didn’t fight, they were engaged in logistics and banking. And in the wild Zhemait forests, a bloodlet can fly into the turnip with something heavy.
    Reply

    Gut, rusky, think gut. And the second zone - the monks!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 2 May 2020 17: 29 New
      +3
      This is the second and final version of the "social lift" of the era.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 2 May 2020 18: 17 New
        +4
        "Social lift" of any era. laughing
  • Catfish
    Catfish 2 May 2020 18: 12 New
    +6
    Vyacheslav, thanks for the next opus, without your work here you could die from boredom. hi
    about the Battle of Kulikovo in images and paintings.

    In Soviet times, there was a song about the Battle of Kulikovo:

    "How waders whistled on the Kulikovo field
    And in a stupid manner the Russian regiments stood up.
    The governor with a red mug in the military business knows a lot,
    He drove the Ambush Regiment into the mosquito swamp. "(C)

    But I, actually, about the Battle of the Ice. There has already been said so much about this that laziness is repeated. Only one thing: no matter how many submarine expeditions there were, that in the Soviet, that in the post-Soviet time, one damn thing was not found. So maybe it makes sense to explore the armor and weapons of that time with other, more specific examples? I understand that someone who I wrote is like a sickle in the balls, but it’s not they who determine the attitude to our history.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek 3 May 2020 00: 12 New
      +1
      And now she has not gone anywhere.

      Every archaeological expedition sings almost every evening and around the campfire. A couple of times a minimum.

      This is even more common than the Eagle of the sixth legion, which is like an unofficial anthem, yes.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 3 May 2020 13: 12 New
    -1
    Not much about the artistic images, but about the place of the battle. What the chronicle describes. Prince Alexander comes under the walls of Dorpat and besieges him. Part of the army is sent to plunder the lands surrounding the city. Domash, the mayor's brother, dies in a skirmish with knights going to the aid of the besieged fortress. Alexander and his army were frightened and flee. How do they run? Running in a hurry leaving the camp? Or are they retreating in an organized manner? And one more question. Why are they running towards Lake Peipsi. From the site of the alleged battle to Dorpat in a straight line about 100 km. More on the way. It would be more logical to run towards Izborsk. The distance is the same. But you will meet the enemy behind the fortress walls. Do knights chase fleeing ones? Let's say yes. This can be a maximum of 5-7 km if you have not caught up. After that, the persecutors return to the fortress, and the retreating ones can rest calmly, comprehend what is happening, transform, etc. And if they are not pursued? It turns out that fear seized Alexander and his army and they fled for 4–5 days and only on the ice of the lake come to their senses. Will the knights chase the retreating troops for 4-5 days? No. They fulfilled their task. The fortress was released, the enemy retreated. If the enemy wants to continue fighting, then you are welcome - we are in the fortress. Let's say the knights are chasing the army of Alexander. How do they know where fear will release Alexander and he will stop. Maybe he will run to Novgorod. And this is a different preparation and logistics. As we know, the case took place on April 5 (12). Hydrologists who have studied this issue say with a 50% probability that there could be ice suitable for finding on it. Let's say fit. Let's say the battle took place on the SPRING ice. Spring ice is a pure ice rink. And yet, I would like to know in what shoes one and the other side fought. If you answer all these questions following elementary logic, common sense and personal experience, then something is not real. To put it mildly. The battle took place in the area of ​​modern Tartu. Why the chronicler transferred him to the Peipsi (Warm) Lake area is a question for him. As they say, "He is an artist, he sees so."
    1. kalibr
      9 May 2020 16: 56 New
      +1
      The questions are good, it is impossible to answer them. There is no information. Speculation does not count.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 10 May 2020 19: 49 New
        0
        Speculation is not considered, common sense is discarded, they have not heard about logic! The thoughts of the chronicler are issued as a document. It is probably hard to admit that the battle was elsewhere.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 4 May 2020 08: 01 New
    +2
    Wonderful article Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Only today, however, I read it.
  • Hyperborean
    Hyperborean 4 May 2020 21: 56 New
    +1
    Most of these "artists", and, unfortunately, many "archaeologists and so-called scientists" did not see any equipment, armor, or weapons in their eyes .. Complete absence of a normal approach to the study of the material. Hence such surreal pictures of fantasy content. Unfortunately, articles of the level of cheap nonsense and fiction are also darkness ...
  • itis
    itis 10 May 2020 16: 36 New
    +1
    the Weiners had a cool version in the "Gospel of the Executioner" about these knight-dogs. what a parable, where are these "dogs" from? their reason was in the translator's mistake (typographical marriage), they say, when he translated K. Marx about the event, he confused the capital letter in the word "unions" - Bunden (Marx wrote about "knightly unions"). The paint was erased and it turned out to be Hunden. so and so - "knights-dogs", "dog knights" ... not that he gave out "dogs"!
  • Diviz
    Diviz 14 June 2020 21: 30 New
    0
    Write in blocks, excerpts. You can endlessly. Watch a movie about the Tomiris massagets. When Tsar Cyrus sent his entire army to the massagets and was killed. Dumb ass, this king Cyrus. He wanted to attack Egypt by Herodotus and attacked the massagets. It’s not clear why. Here either Herodotus is a false writer or Cyrus the Herod. And it concerns each reader whose side he will take. This is from the same opera that the Tatar-Mongol army was 500 thousand. units People and horses and they all wandered several thousand miles and several years in Russia. What purpose they do not understand. And the main one of the authors of the articles wrote that they did not have a written language. That is, again, the reader must, by virtue of his own thoughts, assume one side or another. And the end result is such that the less thoughts readers have, the better. Then continue yourself. One thing I want to note as a standard, for some reason we think Greek writers are thinkers. It turns out that we are in their information trap. And therefore, I can bring another fact to the legend of Clavrat. In addition to Alexander Nevsky, there was still Alexandre of Macedon. My idea is clear?