The tragedy of "Marina Raskova": can such losses be justified?


In general, история tragic and strange at the same time. It happened in the Kara Sea and became the largest in terms of human losses during the Great Patriotic War in the Arctic. The tragedy of August 12, 1944, in principle, when the war was already on the territory of the enemy, which also probably played a role. On this day, the German submarine U-365 sank the ship "Marina Raskova" and two of the three minesweepers accompanying the vessel.


We can say that the crew of the boat showed miracles of skill, destroying a well-guarded convoy. However, not everything is so simple.

Yes, there were an unforgivable loss of life, about 400 people died, including women and children. Perhaps this number of victims could have been avoided if not for a series of mistakes made by the convoy commander.

Let's start as usual with the characters.

"Marina Raskova."


Wikipedia gives information that this is the cargo and passenger ship “Marina Raskova” (American Liberty-type transport) launched in June 1943 and operated until its death in the Kara Sea on August 12, 1944.

However, no. This steamboat was built back in 1919, and was originally called the Salisbury. In 1941, he changed his name to Iberville, and in 1942, being bought out by the US government, he changed his name to Ironclad again.

“Ironclad” went to the USSR as part of the convoy НХ-178 (did not reach due to damage during the storm) and PQ-17 (survived and reached Murmansk, the epic of the Ayrshire corvette, if anyone is interested). It was transferred to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease, received the name "Marina Raskova" and was operated as part of the Northern Shipping Company.


The displacement of the ship was 14 tons, speed 450 knots.

Minesweepers of the AM series ("American").

The tragedy of "Marina Raskova": can such losses be justified?

These were also American boats. T-114, T-116 and T-118 were also transferred to the USSR under Lend-Lease and operated under these numbers as part of the Northern fleet.

Displacement 725 tons, speed 13,5 knots.

The armament of the minesweepers of AM consisted of 2 × 76-mm guns, a 40-mm anti-aircraft gun "Bofors" and 6 anti-aircraft anti-aircraft guns 20-mm "Oerlikon".

Anti-submarine weapons: Mk.10 Hedzhehog rocket launcher (24 barrels), two Mk.6 stock-bombers. Hydroacoustic station and radar.

U-365.


Medium German submarine type VIIC. Surface displacement 735 tons, surface speed underwater / underwater 17,7 / 7,5 knots.

Armament: 88 mm gun, four bow and one stern TA 533 mm.

And after the presentation, the narrative begins. Actually, Marina Raskova and three minesweepers made up the BD-5 convoy, which entered history so sadly.

Marina Raskova carried out very important flights to supply the polar stations and villages of the Kara Sea and the Laptev Sea. This explains such an impressive escort of three warships.

On August 8, 1944, the ship went to sea with cargo for polar stations and a large number of passengers of the next shift at the station. The passengers were 116 military personnel and 238 civilian personnel of the Main Directorate of the Northern Sea Route. Among the civilians were 124 women and 16 children from the families of wintering and military personnel. Taking into account 55 crew members, there were 409 people at Marina Raskova.

According to the documentation, the steamer had a sufficient number of life-saving appliances: four full-time lifeboats, four inflatable rafts, several spacious wooden kungas, life jackets and circles. There was very little sense from the latter, even in the month of August, but nonetheless. However, as subsequent events showed, rescue equipment was not equipped with alarm equipment, an emergency supply of water and food. This is a nuance that. however, it claimed a lot of human lives.

The transport was allocated an escort of three minesweepers of the AM type: T-114, T-116 and T-118. The convoy commander of the 1st rank Shmelev, who held the flag on the T-118, commanded the convoy. It is difficult to say how many people were on the minesweepers, because Shmelev’s command group and a commission from the flotilla headquarters under the command of General Loktionov were added to the standard crews of 70 people, which was supposed to check the status of weather stations. We can assume that the three minesweepers were still about 300 people.

As a result, the convoy consisted of more than 700 people. An important figure, as we will talk about losses.

On August 11, without any incident, the convoy entered the Kara Sea. And the day before, on August 10, the headquarters of the Kara Naval Base, which was based on Dikson Island, received information that fishermen noticed a German submarine near the island. At the base, they reacted and sent in a search for the Catalina seaplane. The plane flew around the island, the boat was not expected to be found. Thousands of square kilometers of the sea is no joke.

It is not known whether Shmelev received this information, apparently, no, since the whole series of further events is a clear confirmation of this.

We can consider this the first fatal mistake: do not warn the convoy that they saw an enemy submarine in the area.

Obviously on the ships of the convoy reigned some disagreement. BD-5 was on a straight course, completely not bothering with anti-submarine zigzag. Ahead of the transport was the T-118, T-114 and T-116 on the right and left, keeping at a distance of one and a half miles from the Marina Raskova.



Most likely, they walked generally relaxing, as if the enemy was not supposed. I am sure that acoustics did not particularly listen to water for the same reason. In general, in the vast expanses of the Arctic Ocean, it was very difficult to find something, which once again confirms the commotion that the Admiral Scheer arranged at one time.

About the same thing happened this time. No one was waiting for the enemy, but at 19:57 Moscow, an explosion rang out on the starboard side of Marina Raskova. The area was characterized by very shallow depths (up to 40 meters), therefore no one (?) Expected the enemy’s submarines here. And, perhaps, it’s not entirely logical, but it was decided that the “Marina Raskova” was blown up by a mine.

Here immediately arises a very difficult alignment. Mina is a non-self-propelled thing. Someone simply must deliver it to the place of production, activate and install it.

Germans? Well, theoretically they could. Their submarines could put mines, for this a series of XB boats was built, each of which could deliver 66 min of the SMA series. Yes, and the aforementioned submarine of series VII instead of torpedoes could carry 26 minutes "TMA" or 39 minutes "TMV". And in the vertical shafts it was possible to place 16 minutes of the same SMA series.

In general, the Germans could deliver mines, apparently ours were in the know, and the torpedo explosion was taken as a mine. Which only once again indicates that normal observation was not conducted.

Therefore, having excluded the probability of an attack by the submarine, Shmelev orders the T-116 and T-118 to approach the transport for assistance, and the T-114 to carry anti-submarine defense. Already not bad, but it would be completely correct to report the incident to the headquarters of the flotilla, but this was not done.

Most likely, Shmelev decided that “Marina Raskova” had hit a wandering mine, now they will repair the damage and move on.

However, just seven minutes after the explosion at the Marina Raskova, the exact same explosion rang out on the T-118. The ship stayed afloat for 27 minutes, and then sank.

Part of the crew, including the convoy commander, was rescued by the remaining ships and vehicles, which continued to stay afloat.

And ... and all that happened only strengthened Shmelev’s understanding that the convoy was in the minefield! And Shmelev continued to act on the basis of his erroneous beliefs.

Having crossed aboard the T-114, Shmelev ordered the rescue of people from transport to begin. And if up to this point the T-114 at least designated some anti-submarine actions, then from that moment the crew began to engage in a completely different matter.

And then Shmelev at 20:25 gave the order to anchor and focus on saving people from the “Marina Raskova”. Which was done.

T-114, according to the orders of Shmelev, took on board more than 200 people. At 00:15 on August 13 from the boat belonging to the minesweeper T-116, traveling with people from the "Marina Raskova" to T-116, the periscope of the submarine was seen. It is clear that there was no radio station on the boat, therefore they could not promptly report what they saw. Why they didn’t use the searchlight is not entirely clear, but at 00:45 a T-114 burst the torpedo and the ship sank four minutes later.

The T-114 crew died, the commander of the convoy Shmelev died, almost all the passengers transported from the "Marina Raskova" were killed, just a few people escaped.

By 01:00, the T-116 commander, Captain Lieutenant Babanov, received a message from the boat crew about the periscope seen. That is, the version of the minefield collapsed (finally) and it became clear that the submarine was working.

And then a strange thing at first glance happened: instead of searching and attacking the submarine, Babanov unfolded the ship and went to the Yugorsky Shar Strait, in Khabarovo. On the one hand, it looked like cowardice and betrayal, but on the other hand, the T-116 took almost two hundred people, and could repeat the fate of the T-114 ...

A difficult decision. Babanov reported the decision to the commander of the White Sea Flotilla, but only half an hour later, when he was already leaving the sinking transport.

The flotilla commander Rear Admiral Kucherov gave Babanov an order: if the ship did not sink and stay on the water, be near it and carry out anti-submarine defense. If the ship sank, then go to Khabarovo. Babanov said nothing and went to the base. As a result, the T-116 arrived safely in Khabarovo.

It is very difficult to evaluate the actions of Babanov. On the one hand, the warship simply had to attack the submarine, thereby possibly preserving the transport. On the other hand, perhaps Babanov was not so confident in his abilities, but that there, he could simply be demoralized by a massacre arranged by the Germans.

Plus, it is quite possible that almost 200 rescued people in a small boat with a crew of fifty people simply would not have allowed the crew to work according to the combat schedule.

Honestly, it's not for us to judge Captain-Lieutenant Babanov. Not to us.

So, the only surviving minesweeper left the scene of the tragedy, taking with him rescued people. As I understand it, the ship was packed to the limit.

But the "Marina Raskova" was still floating on the water. There were seven crew members along with the captain. In addition, next to the transport was a boat with T-116 with seven rowers from among the crew members of the minesweeper, who were engaged in rescuing people from the water, kungas and rafts with the passengers of Marina Raskova.

At 02:15, the transport was repeatedly attacked by the submarine and sank. U-365 after hitting the last, third torpedo, surfaced and left the scene of the attack.

It is difficult to say whether this submarine was seen by fishermen at Dixon, but a fact: German submarines were present in the Kara Sea. This was the Greif group, which already had experience in the Arctic.

The U-365 submarine of Lieutenant Commander Wedemeyer was part of this group. Captain Wedemeyer was considered a very experienced sailor, and his actions to destroy the convoy BD-5 confirm this.

Preserved data from the ship's magazine U-365, which allows you to see what happened through the eyes of the other side.

On August 12, at 18:05 pm, a convoy of BD-60 was discovered by the crew 5 miles west of Bely Island. The boat plunged to attack and began approaching the ships.

Taking advantage of the negligence in guarding the convoy, Wedemeyer managed to get closer to transport by less than one kilometer.

19:53. U-365 makes a volley of two FAT torpedoes on a steamboat, one of which hit Marina Raskova. The second passed by.

19:58 the boat launched a T-5 homing acoustic torpedo in the direction of transport and escorts. Miss.

20:03 Wedemeyer released another T-5, which hit the T-118.

After that, the U-365 fell to the bottom to evade a counterattack and reload torpedo tubes, which by that time were empty. The attack, however, did not take place, minesweepers were occupied by a torpedo T-118.

While the Germans reloaded torpedo tubes, they heard explosions of three depth charges. This can hardly be considered an attack; most likely, the deep bombs of the T-118 worked, reaching a given depth.

23:18. U-365 surfaced to periscope depth in order to assess the situation.

Wedemeyer saw that it was only 3-4 cable from T-114, then Marina Raskova drifted further. T-116 was not visible. Realizing that the T-114 was anchored, engaged in rescue operations, the commander of U-365 decided to attack this ship.

00:45. U-365 hits a torpedo in an anchored T-114. The minesweeper sank after five minutes.

Further, the U-365 commander saw the T-116, but since the minesweeper was clearly moving away from the scene of the tragedy, Wedemeyer did not try to catch up with him, since he still had one goal, an undereachable transport.

02:04 a.m. U-365 fired one torpedo at Marina Raskova, the torpedo hit, but the ship did not sink. Obviously, the steamboat cargo provided additional buoyancy. Wedemeyer did not come up and fired a third torpedo.

02:24 "Marina Raskova" broke in half from the last explosion and began to sink. Half an hour later, the ship disappeared under water.

U-365 has surfaced. People swam in the water, boats and rafts were on the surface. Since the U-365 campaign had just begun, the submarine commander did not plan to take prisoners. Therefore, U-365 is gone.

The people remaining on the water had to survive in very difficult conditions.

Having received a report from Captain Babanov about the death of the BD-5 convoy, the commander of the White Sea flotilla Kucherov ordered to begin the search for submarines and survivors. As for the search for submarines, of course, it is somewhat optimistic, but the rescue operation lasted right up to September 3. And what they have been looking for so long has saved many lives. Although someone could not be saved.

At the site of the death of the transport remained about 150 people. 70 people were found and saved by airplanes, however, some of them could not be defended, people died from exhaustion and hypothermia after salvation.

The T-116 delivered 181 people to Khabarovo, 36 sailors with the T-118, and 145 passengers from the Marina Raskova. Thus, 251 people were saved. The figures of the victims vary slightly, but in any case, the losses amounted to about four hundred people, including almost all the women and children who were on the "Marina Raskova".

The real feat was made by the pilot Matvey Kozlov, the commander of the flying boat Katalina.

On August 23, he noticed the first kungas and managed to pull out all the survivors with the crew. Here are the lines from his report:

“They found there 14 people alive and more than 25 corpses. The corpses lay in two rows at the bottom of a kungas filled knee-deep with water. Survivors lay and sat on the corpses, of which about six were able to move with difficulty on their own. According to the statement of the people filmed and the inspection of the kungas, it was established that there was no fresh water or any products on the kungas. ”


Due to the storm and overload, the Catalina could not take off. The crew could not at least somehow lighten the plane so that it could take off, and Kozlov decided to go by sea. For twelve hours the pilot drove a flying boat, which had become an ordinary boat, along the waves. And in the end I brought it.

What conclusions could be drawn from this disaster?

Of course, the latest acoustic torpedoes of German submarines were a very unpleasant surprise.

But it is already clear that as many mistakes as Soviet sailors made were simply criminal. In fact, the convoy commander Shmelev himself set his ships under attack, misjudging the situation and making the wrong decision. Moreover, persisting in the minefield version, Shmelev significantly exacerbated the situation.

Given that the “Marina Raskova” did not immediately sink, Shmelev could well have organized an attack on a German submarine, and, if not sunk, then made it impossible to re-attack the transport.

Extra evidence of this is the events that occurred only 2 days after the end of the rescue operation, September 5, 1944.

All the same T-116, under the command of the same Babanov, who for some reason was not demoted, was not shot, acting alone, discovered and reliably sank the German submarine U-362, in the Mon Monte Islands off the west coast Taimyr.

The submarine was found in the water position. That is, the observers worked fine, and perhaps the radar helped. Naturally, the boat went under water, but the minesweeper's sonar worked out, after which the T-116 successfully attacked and sunk the boat.

Tell me, could the crew of Babanov a month earlier arrange exactly the same layout for U-365? I am 100% sure that I could.

Instead, the minesweepers' crews focused on mine action. Yes, if the convoy really got into the minefield, Shmelev’s actions would be absolutely correct.

The whole problem is that there was no minefield.

U-365 in the first phase of the attack fired 4 torpedoes. Nobody noticed them on our ships. How could this happen?

Avoiding damaged T-116 vehicles doesn’t look very nice. Yes, it’s like running away. However, it is difficult to judge Babanov, who, left alone and having on board almost 200 saved, did not dare to start a duel with a submarine. But the fact that the command decided not to punish Babanov speaks volumes. And the fact that it was not in vain proves the victory of the T-116 crew over U-362.

That's all I would like to say about the events of August-September 1944 in the Kara Sea. The episode is completely unpleasant, but it had a place to be in our history.
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  1. avia12005 3 May 2020 05: 45 New
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    From the perspective of today, everything is relatively clear, but then?
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        1. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 07: 06 New
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          Bullshit and fraud.
          I tell you. In the 80s at the ILC (Kamch Mor Shipping Company) there was a service of captain-mentors. They sat in the sea station, still old. Left entrance from the end.
          Engaged in military training of captains and crews. It is the evasion of torpedo attacks, issues of PLO, etc. For in the war they were called.
          Why do I know, there is my former boss, then the head of the KVF PFB Vova Yushenkov was the senior KN (Captain-Mentor).
          This is like a reward for a search operation. Getting there is just so unrealistic .... My apartment flew over this search engine as a developer.
          So, KN had to work out all this with them.
          BUT! The office is more commercial than earlier delivery, fuel economy, bonus team .... in short, they persuaded KN to sign fictitious maneuvering guides ... lesson plans. And for this they brought tape recorders, clothes ...
          Clearly, not everyone gave slack, but many.
          That is, according to the documents, the captain and crew should be prepared for PLO, PPSO, PVO ..... and at the exit bullshit.

          I wrote what I came across.
          All from below.
          This is due to the fact that they contained a whole bag of caprese, but the person is weak.
          1. Rurikovich 3 May 2020 09: 32 New
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            Quote: Semenov Semen Semenych
            I wrote what I came across.
            All from below.

            I agree to some extent yes request Fraud flourishes in a planned economy. Although the entire vertical of control is involved from the very top to the bottom, I personally believe that a greater degree of guilt lies at the top due to the fundamentally incorrect setting of the assignment to the same lower classes. Everything happens on paper, in isolation from reality. As a result, the performers do whatever they can, imitating ebullient activity on paper. “The paper will endure everything” - I think many have heard this and know what it means. We get fraud, embezzlement, and a practically fictitious world on paper that is different from the real one and everyone believes in it until a thread comes to attack that reveals the parasitic abscess.
            Then we wave our sabers, epaulettes and heads fly, the hype begins, with the end of which, after a lull, everything returns to normal smile
            1. Andrew Matseevsky 3 May 2020 23: 39 New
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              So it was, it is and it will be so. Any managerial (read bureaucratic) structure wants to break away from reality and not depend on it in any way. The situation that led to the death of Columbia is almost indicative of the topic. Managers are used to commanding people and come to the idea that iron will also obey them. From engineers preoccupied with the situation (blow to the wing with a piece of thermal insulation) waved away like annoying flies. The result is known ...
              1. Serg koma 4 May 2020 10: 30 New
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                Quote: Andrew Matseevsky
                Any managerial (read bureaucratic) structure wants to break away from reality and not depend on it in any way.

                Information about the submarine "went" to the wrong address, probably with this "bureaucratic hook" on the authorities and the delay in notifying the BD-5 about the enemy submarine is connected.
                Nenets reported the Nazi landings. Radio operator V.V. Belousov recalled: "A radiogram with the message that the submarine entered the Drovyanaya river was brought by the secretary of the party’s district committee, Sidorov George. She addressed to Salekhard to the district party". It happened in those days of August 1944, when the Tyumen region was created, thus" managed to fight "
            2. NordUral 4 May 2020 16: 11 New
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              Fraud flourishes in a planned economy.
              Fraud thrives on fools and talkers from top to bottom. And in the absence or weak control of execution. Under the planned, Stalin didn’t really flourish
            3. Jager 11 May 2020 12: 16 New
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              But isn’t it under capitalism? With him, fraud takes on a much larger scale.
          2. Looking for 3 May 2020 14: 57 New
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            Why didn’t you refuse the apartment?
          3. nznz 10 May 2020 21: 35 New
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            not a topic, but I’ll ask, a friend was from my friend before the war, went through a penal battalion (I was late for a boat on a booze), later I bought and mined the minefields in the Novaya Zemlya region with my blood and won it on a pickpocket. In peacetime, he captained and became a KN in the end, took part in the rescue of Iney, it seems like there was such an incident. He worked everywhere along the seaside route, in Tiksi, and on Dixon, and even in Owls of the harbor, from which he called all the women there .Wife in Tiksi worked as an announcer on the radio. Their name was Stepanov Igor Stepanovich t Stepanova Vera Konstantinovna-did not meet with them? I celebrate gnuzhdachu .. the man was colorite. I met him a mention of him in the stories of the Dikson hydrological plaza base as an educated and intelligent captain.
            When Stepanich plowed Karskoye with Barents, his father was creating SNIS on the NZ VMB.5500km on NZ on dogs, whoever understood that this was a nightmare, especially in winter. I tried to imagine that suddenly the light went out on the NZ — where to go, there are no landmarks. Or an option (I nearly got lost in a snowstorm 2 times, the accident of 90g was not water for 3 months. The feeling that a person is a grain of sand is what I understood. Marina Raskova’s theme is very close. Literally, my mother and sister went on a transport to 1941 made her way to the NZ naval base, they were already aware that the MPs drowned, shook and prayed and cried. radio operator (one of three it seems). The radio specialists knew all the journalists led by Roman Carmen, leaders. How the father joked the second star of the Hero of the Soviet Union Papanin received from his hands (a government telegram). mother and wrote her a note to the head of the Belomorsky naval flotilla, her father was taken from there in 1939 to the NZ, and thanks to this note, mother made her way along the railway station to the place where the caravan was formed. so she and her child made their way to her father. There is already a friend's story, Tyko Vylka, his brother was a musher in the father's harness. Father for outward resemblance Ilya Konstantinovy ​​Vylka called Mayakovsky. hair combed back. I’m looking for traces and mentions - everything rests on the Gatchina archive The Navy-Murmansk and Arkhangelsk have already answered that the data is fading, everything connected with the icebreakers (Joseph Stalin was called) is betrayed to the military. -but there is no electronic, writing by mail is not really something, I live in the wilderness of the village. They didn’t award the father anything. He was a non-partisan of the languid noblemen, and even worse a bit, and even seconded, did not bulge out ... although the crews showered with awards, especially the Sedovtsy, they rewarded everyone who remained in the drift with heroes, the father had met Badigin Kontantin when he already was a famous writer. this is how it all reminded me ..
        2. hohol95 3 May 2020 14: 20 New
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          Shooting a caravan of ships off Matveyev Island ...
          17 August 1942 year,
          1. volodimer 3 May 2020 17: 17 New
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            It’s also a tragedy, but there were civilian unarmed ships, and here there are three ships created for the PLO and such losses. The effect can only be compared when the Germans drowned three ships equipped with the most advanced air defense system at the Black Sea Fleet: Black Day of the Black Sea Fleet on October 6, 1943. Everywhere, erroneous decisions were made by the command of the convoy and the detachment of ships.
            It is difficult to judge the actions of the commander of a surviving minesweeper.
            Different sources contain different data on the crew from 70 to 95 people, which, taking into account "Flotilla headquarters under the command of General Loktionov" and taken on board, "nearly 200 saved" he had a serious overload and just clogged with both deck and deck space. Trying, in these conditions, to chase an enemy pl, risking to get an acoustic torpedo, is very stupid.
            Stay near the transport and picking up its crew, and then become the next victim ...
            In any case, the minesweeper commander showed that in a situation where he was not so constrained by the conditions, he attacked and drowned the enemy.
            The novel "made" think on the topic of "right-wrong."
            In fact, the commander of the minesweeper Balabanov in an ambiguous situation, the fault of which was the convoy commander, saved 200 people by not allowing the sinking of his ship, and then took revenge by destroying the enemy submarine. His actions in that setting do not deserve condemnation.
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              1. volodimer 3 May 2020 17: 49 New
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                Semyon Semyonych hi , I do not quite understand.
                But every year I am surprised by these declassified documents of the Ministry of Defense, in which there is nothing fundamentally new, but only confirmation of known facts. Why was it stored under the bar? They would have said honestly that the MO finally got to them and digitized them ... And in the archives there are still materials that the MO would like to put on public display, but is afraid to lose their state in mind, therefore it will present them as soon as possible. A vulture is a way to save them from being taken away and lost.
                To go with posters or not, to celebrate or not, everyone decides for himself.
                May 9 was always a holiday, although at some time my grandfather wasn’t as happy as everyone else, but when he showed him a picture of his daughter on May 10, 1945, it just blossomed. I don’t know what he thought at that moment, probably remembered that moment when he realized that he would see her again (she was born on 10.1939, the only surviving of 3 children)
                I apologize for being off topic.
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                  1. Waddimm 5 May 2020 01: 42 New
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                    Quote: Semenov Semen Semenych
                    There is nothing to celebrate.

                    We celebrate the Victory of our grandfathers in the most terrible war!
                    "This is a holiday - with tears in his eyes!"
                    And you can not celebrate. Your right.
              2. Andrew Matseevsky 3 May 2020 23: 49 New
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                Well, to hell. Who needed this history lesson? True, the medicine is too bitter and here alpst and the people are united. The population wants to brag about something if there is nothing of their own. So the cult of the Second World War will live, and as far as it prevents it from having an effective army. And in the time of Stalin and Khrushchev it is known why there was no holiday. Joseph Vissarionovich could not realize his dream-to get to the Canal, to join the USSR, the French Soviet Socialist Republic, etc. So they did not celebrate Victory Day. Harriman congratulated Stalin on his victory. "Tsar Alexander the First came to Paris," the great leader grunted with displeasure. Still have questions?
              3. Boris Razor 4 May 2020 18: 03 New
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                Quote: Semenov Semen Semenych
                what are we celebrating?

                Victory.
                Stupidity, indifference and crime are attempts to invalidate the Victory by referring to the mistakes made during the war. There were mistakes, so what now - to cancel the victory and recognize the defeat? You have agreed to an extreme degree of delirium.
            2. hohol95 3 May 2020 21: 25 New
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              It’s also a tragedy, but there were civilian unarmed ships, and here there are three ships created for the PLO and such losses.

              Only which Western media described this episode and demanded that the current generation of Germans repent for the actions of their submariners?
              And they demand us to "repent" for the actions of Marinescu and the victims of "William Gustlov"!
    2. Serg koma 4 May 2020 10: 24 New
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      Quote: avia12005
      From today's perspective

      Now there is a memorial sign on the island, and the Yamal Cossacks built a chapel. A memorial plaque was installed in Salekhard with the inscription: “In memory of polar explorers, members of their families and sailors who died in the waters of the northern coast of Yamal with the steamboat Marina Raskova and mine minesweepers on August 12, 1944. Since 2008, the international search expedition“ Convoy DB -5". Its members found the living, clarified the lists of the dead and established contact with their relatives. The Karsky Expeditions project is also in place to search for traces of the disaster on land and under water.

      12.08.2015
      MOSCOW, Aug 12 - RIA News. A unique scientific and historical project was launched in Murmansk: the Baltika icebreaker with Yamal scientists on board, who will be engaged in the first survey of ships sinking in the Kara Sea during the Great Patriotic War, went to sea

      12.08.2016
      Reporting on NTV [media = https: //www.ntv.ru/video/1303222/#ts=10]
      They tried to find the place of death of several hundred people only after 7 decades. The Baltika icebreaker, barely launched, went in search of the sunken convoy. The latest ship for a unique operation. Having determined the coordinates of the sunken ship "Marina Raskova", divers sank to the bottom. In the Arctic, no one did this.
      On the shore, a search squad found the bow of a wooden boat. This is the kungas, on which 85 people tried to escape. A search plane found a boat dangling in the icy waves only on the 12th day. There were 14 alive and as many who died from dehydration. The bodies remained in the kungas, which nailed to the island.
      In the 40s, polar explorers buried the dead, but the place of the mass grave was indicated approximately. The established cross stood for 20 years. After this, for over half a century no one knew where the bodies lie. To find the grave, search engines step by step examined the kilometers of the coast. The remains of 13 bodies lay at a 13-cm depth.
  2. Avior 3 May 2020 06: 25 New
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    . U-365 in the first phase of the attack fired 4 torpedoes. Nobody noticed them on our ships. How could this happen?

    Very simple
    The Germans fired electric torpedoes, which do not leave behind a bubble trail, like combined-cycle ones.
    How would they be noticed?
    The main question in this story is why the convoy was not informed about the boat?
    So after many years, analyzing documents from both sides and knowing the huge amount of information that was not known to the participants in the events, it is now easy to argue who did the right thing and who did the wrong thing.
    1. Mooh 3 May 2020 07: 01 New
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      Whether they are at least bubbly, at least cavitation is unimportant. If an acoustics is at the post, and at least with one ear he listens, then the roar of 4 torpedoes cannot be overlooked. I suppose that the sonar station on such a vessel was ASDIC, at that time a very advanced device. And minesweepers as much as three pieces. And no one heard? It’s strange somehow.
      And the presence of the radar on the Lendlisian minesweeper surprises me greatly. Does not fit into the picture of the world. They didn’t have enough, but they gave it according to lend-lease, and even on such shmakozyavki.
      1. Avior 3 May 2020 07: 16 New
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        The minesweepers of the AM type were very advanced, but whether GAS QCS-1 could determine the electric torpedo on the minesweepers, I do not know.
      2. Ryaruav 3 May 2020 09: 20 New
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        it was the presence of a radar station on Lend-Leasean rigs, well, mine, that made these ships very necessary for our fleet
      3. Alexey RA 4 May 2020 17: 43 New
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        Quote: MooH
        And the presence of the radar on the Lendlisian minesweeper surprises me greatly. Does not fit into the picture of the world. They didn’t have enough, but they gave it according to lend-lease, and even on such shmakozyavki.

        Everything is simple. The fact is that AM is not exactly a minesweeper. The Americans designed their minesweepers as universal ships capable of both anti-mine and anti-submarine defense. Hence the "Hedgehogs", and the radar with the GAS.
        And as for shmakozyavok ... radars were even on Lend-Lease torpedo boats (which were also not quite torpedo, but universal patrol smile ).
        On October 21, 1944, in the evening, intelligence from the Northern Fleet established that an enemy convoy was leaving east from the Tanfjord. He was expected to enter the Varangerfjord at night. Two groups of boats were prepared to search for the convoy and strike at it. Consider the actions of one of them.
        At 23:30, a group of TKA-215 (commander senior lieutenant V. S. Kuznetsov), TKA-205 (commander lieutenant P. P. Direnko) and TKA-230 (commander senior lieutenant P. I. Kosovnin) under the command [47] of the chief of staff of the division captain of the 3rd rank A. I. Efimov went to search for the enemy in the area of ​​Fr. Lille Eckere - Metro Cybergnes. With access to the search area, boats were built into the ledge. The group commander went on the lead "TKA-230", which had a radar station. At 1:30 a.m. on October 22, a convoy was detected by a radar at a distance of 50-55 kV (seven large targets, guarded by eight smaller ones, were clearly visible on the station’s screen). The convoy walked, clinging to the shore. Security ships were located more maritime transports. Assessing the situation on the radar screen, A. I. Efimov decided to bypass the convoy from behind, catch up and attack from the shore.

        TKA-230 is the Lend-Lease "Vper" PT-370.
    2. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 07: 12 New
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      The magic word is a periscope.
      Or rather, his trace.
      The surveillance service had to be carried out properly.
      1. Gato 3 May 2020 10: 59 New
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        The attack was around 20:00. I suspect that at that time in those latitudes of the polar day and there were no white nights. But at dusk it’s not like a periscope, it’s difficult to detect even the cabin of a boat in the frontal projection.
        1. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 13: 02 New
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          And German submariners owl vision ....
          But you will not argue that the ship was lit running lights, illuminations and dances on the deck with a gramophone?
          1. Gato 3 May 2020 13: 10 New
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            I mean, the observation was normal and a periscope was found. True, at first they mistook him for the sail of a ship - only then was a glare of optics noticed. A link to a detailed description of the battle is in Pedivikia in an article on T-116.
            1. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 14: 59 New
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              Observation was normal and a periscope was found.
              So you write about the lack of a polar day and twilight ....
              He studied at Severomorsk-1 in May-June.
              Then they lifted me up these white nights. The first time I saw it. Sleeping is problematic, especially since the first days three who flew from the Far East to the mainland know about the difference of 9 hours.

              Maybe it was still visible.? August.
              Northerners need to be asked.
              1. Tavrik 3 May 2020 19: 56 New
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                What is the difference, normal observation was or not? There were three radars and three GASs. Quality American-made products. But the operators were trained? Really, not "on paper" ?. With the ability to use sophisticated electronics, we had then ... not really.
                In general, it seems that we just relaxed. 1944, Germans driven on all fronts. In the North, the Kriegsmarine is also not active. Well, we got ... Such tragic episodes should be studied in schools on the subject: "how not to do."
                1. bubalik 3 May 2020 23: 32 New
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                  American-made products. But the operators were trained? Really, not "on paper"

                  ,, Babanov’s crew was trained. They made contact with the boat and covered in the first salvo. Babanov was an experienced officer. He has been in the army since 1937. He overtook AM TSH-116 from America. By that time he had two orders of the Red Banner. For the sinking of the submarine, including the salvation of people with Raskova, he was awarded the Order of Nakhimov llst.
                  On the morning of September 5, in the region of the Mona Islands, signalman S. Nagornov and Jung V. Kotkin discovered a submarine on the horizon. This was the unfortunate U362, which came across instead of the U957. She plunged, but the sonar foreman of the 1st article N. Koryagin managed to quickly establish sonar contact. The place for the boat was very unsuccessful - shallow depths left an opportunity only for horizontal maneuver. Babanov acted very assertively. At 09:40 a volley from the Hedgehog was fired, and the target was immediately hit - 8-10 bombs exploded. Then the T-116 used both conventional bombs and the Hedgehog. Four bombs exploded in the third volley. Conventional deep bombs were dropped at the site of the explosions, and finally a visible effect appeared - debris, oil stain and bubbles.
                2. nznz 11 May 2020 00: 34 New
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                  father said that German boats often surfaced and fired at the SNIS post, burned, there were even prisoners, someone could escape. And the fact that often in the skerries of the NZ was repaired is a fact. so that German boats did not touch there.
          2. Serg koma 4 May 2020 10: 43 New
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            Quote: Semenov Semen Semenych
            And German submariners owl vision ....
            But you will not argue that the ship was lit running lights, illuminations and dances on the deck with a gramophone?

            What is better seen? The silhouette of a ship against the sky, or a trace from the periscope on the water in glare from the sun?
            Quote: Gato
            But at dusk it’s not like a periscope, it’s difficult to detect even the cabin of a boat in the frontal projection.

            At 20:00 local time, in mid-August, it is quite light.
            Amderma is located on the coast of the Kara Sea, east of the Ugra Shar Strait on the Ugra Peninsula.
            August 12 Sunrise 01:42 Sunset 20:14 Daylight hours. 18 h. 32 min.
            1. nznz 11 May 2020 00: 36 New
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              maybe the weather was unimportant. Dense fogs often happen. August in the NZ (72 latitude) it is almost autumn, drizzling light rains, frost .. fogs and low clouds ..
        2. Captain45 4 May 2020 00: 09 New
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          Quote: Gato
          The attack was around 20:00. I suspect that at that time in those latitudes of the polar day and there were no white nights.

          Taimyr, 69th parallel, Norilsk: from May 19 to July 25 is a polar day, the sun does not set; from July 25 to August 15 white nights, from 01.30 to 02.30-03.00 twilight as in the middle lane at 22 o’clock in June; from August 15 to September 15, twilight nights, from 22 p.m. to 04.00 a.m. - 05.00 a.m. twilight turning into darkness. Since this tragedy took place somewhat north of about 70 parallel, maybe 20-30 + minutes, it was getting dark there even later. I myself have lived in Taimyr for two decades so that I know when and how it gets dark.
          1. nznz 11 May 2020 00: 44 New
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            https://avgust-2019.meteogu.ru/rus/habarovskij_kraj/novaya-zemlya/12/ вот тут на 12.08.3019 сейчас теплее, но видно что облачно и дожди. Обычно как заложит с утра морохом небо так и стоит этот кисель до вечера.Небо свинцовое и волны с небом сливаются.чтоб не думалось 7лет на НЗ на волны смотрел.
  3. realist 3 May 2020 06: 47 New
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    hard story. mistakes in planning and control over the situation result in the blood of losses.
  4. Free wind 3 May 2020 07: 20 New
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    The Germans were very active in our north. Submarines even entered the Yenisei. And the garrison at Dickson took the battle with a German submarine. It turns out that the captains were not warned of the danger. although the military guard allocated.
  5. Thunderbolt 3 May 2020 07: 59 New
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    For twelve hours the pilot drove a flying boat, which had become an ordinary boat, through the waves. And in the end I brought it.
    Pilots sometimes go for a feat and even for self-sacrifice if the lives of ordinary passengers or, for example, the fate of a gunner on the IL-2, depend on their actions.
    Matvey Kozlov brought the rescued to his own and Alexander Mamkin brought the children from Belarus to the mainland, but at the cost of his life. Itself burned down, but landed the plane ... and so.
  6. boris epstein 3 May 2020 08: 11 New
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    About the actions of the T-116 commander Babanov. In the Russo-Japanese War there were three battles (of course there were three more battles, but three suitable for this case), the Battalion and the Terrible destroyers against the superior enemy forces, the Resolute and the Guardian destroyers, and the Rurik cruisers, "Athlete", "Russia" and "Stormbreaker". In the first case, the destroyer Scary was damaged in the car; in the second, the Guardian; in the third, the Rurik cruiser received numerous injuries. The cruiser "Rurik", destroyers "Terrible" and "Guardian" were killed. In the first case, the destroyer “Courageous” broke through to its destroyers, in the second “Resolute”, in the third case, the cruisers “Gromoboy”, “Russia” and “Bogatyr” broke away from the Japanese cruisers and returned. Almost-cruiser “Bogatyr” ran aground near base. In the first two cases, the destroyers that erupted brought help to the dead, but did not have time. Not in one case were the ship commanders punished. Although there were debates in the Russian press similar to our current ones.
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 10: 54 New
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      In no case were ship commanders punished.

      And for what, even if Admiral Rozhdestvensky was reinstated upon his return to Russia without any consequences: “There were no circumstances in the service of this admiral depriving him of the right to receive the insignia of the immaculate service ...” (C).
      To the admiral's honor, it should be added that he himself insisted on a trial of himself.
      1. alone 3 May 2020 13: 08 New
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        Quote: Gato
        To the admiral's honor, it should be added that he himself insisted on a trial of himself.

        In those days, the word officer and honor were considered synonyms ...
        1. Gato 3 May 2020 14: 18 New
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          In those days, the word officer and honor were considered synonyms ...

          People always remain people, regardless of the presence of an epaulet. If everything was so rosy, then there would be no such:
          In 1852 it was established that officers who were not certified for negligence or evasion of service should not be presented, as before, to dismissal from service, and indulge in a military court. But at the same time, the command could provide these officers (as well as non-certified for bad behavior) with a probationary period (during which it was forbidden to go on vacation and resign) and bring them to court only in case of failure. Such measures were taken with the aim of minimizing the number of "lounging people who, more and more plunging into vices, are a burden to the government, while, having deprived them of the opportunity to follow their bad passions, we can still make them useful to ourselves and society." Those found guilty by the court were demoted to rank-and-file with the right to serve as officers for honors.

          As for Rozhdestvensky, if there hadn’t been Tsushima, then for just one campaign of the squadron from the Baltic to the Far East he could have been given an order.
          1. alone 3 May 2020 15: 06 New
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            Quote: Gato
            then for just one campaign of the squadron from the Baltic to the Far East it would be quite possible to give him an order.

            Well, it goes without saying that he would have been handed over for the campaign if it hadn't been for Sutsima ..

            The essence of my comment is that in our time it is difficult to find an admiral who insisted on being brought to court and analyzing his action ..
            Now other concepts are in fashion ...
    2. Sergey S. 3 May 2020 12: 38 New
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      Quote: boris epstein
      ... in the third case, the cruiser "Thunderbolt", "Russia" and "Bogatyr" broke away from the Japanese cruisers and returned. Almost the cruiser "Bogatyr" ran aground near the base.

      "Bogatyr" sat on the stones long before this battle ....
      In the battle, of course, did not participate.
      But “Russia” and “Stormbreaker” are epic heroes.
      They twice returned to the “Rurik”, tried to cover it, ...
    3. Ivanchester 3 May 2020 21: 08 New
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      The cruiser Bogatyr did not take part in the battle in which the Rurik died, because out of service three months before this event.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. ser56 5 May 2020 17: 59 New
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      Quote: boris epstein
      in the third case, the cruiser "Stormbreaker", "Russia" and "Bogatyr" broke away from the Japanese cruisers and returned

      what nonsense! bully you would study the chronology of the wok, and not write nonsense! request
  7. Brylevsky 3 May 2020 09: 20 New
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    U-365 in the first phase of the attack fired 4 torpedoes. Nobody noticed them on our ships. How could this happen?

    Torpedoes could be electric. The electric motor does not throw anything into the water, its operation is not visible and not heard.
    1. Ivanchester 3 May 2020 21: 12 New
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      By your logic, any diesel submarines going under water should not be heard.
      1. Brylevsky 4 May 2020 05: 09 New
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        My post was that a running electric torpedo is not visually visible, unlike a torpedo using compressed air. You thought of everything else yourself.
  8. Gato 3 May 2020 09: 45 New
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    Tell me, could the crew of Babanov a month earlier arrange exactly the same layout for U-365? I am 100% sure that I could.

    Having 200 rescued on board (it is not known in what condition)? Besides, how could Babanov know - it was one boat or several ...
    By the way, I had to read about ambush submarines near exposed mine positions.
  9. Snail N9 3 May 2020 09: 47 New
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    The ammunition of German boats at that time consisted of traceless electric torpedoes G7e and acoustic electric G7es (T5) too. So that no one could see any traces of the torpedoes. In addition, electric torpedoes do not roar like combined-cycle torpedoes and sonar would hardly have heard them, except that just before they hit the ship, it is too late. There is nothing strange and mysterious in what happened. What happened is a repeat of the tragedy of the times of World War I, when a German submarine sank three armored cruisers Abukir, Hog and Kressi.
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 09: 57 New
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      German submarine sunk three armored cruisers Abukir, Hog and Kressi

      Yes, I also remembered this episode, the situation is almost the same.
      By the way, a German boat could well sink a lone minesweeper in a free-fire position with 88-mm guns from a safe distance. She had 17 knots against the minesweeper, and the 13 mm range was probably more than 88 mm cannons.
  10. Scharnhorst 3 May 2020 10: 00 New
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    Semen Semenych is right. While working in the military registration and enlistment office, he himself observed when they brought a group of Nakhimov’s men of 15 to put as many as four captains of the first rank on the primary military register. Having talked with one of them, I found out that almost all “novices” are from the families of active servicemen or retirees, but according to beliefs only three are planning to stay in the army. Information for consideration.
    According to the article, transport had to be sent alone at high speed. Slow-moving minesweepers only created additional unmasking noise and slowed down the entire convoy. The submarine, even in the surface position, could not catch him. The only advantage is a homing acoustic torpedo. But minesweepers would not have protected from it. And the crime was committed by the one who sent a ship not equipped with rescue equipment in wartime for a military operation ...
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 10: 39 New
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      Transport had to be sent alone at high speed.

      Passport speed of transport 19 knots. Given his venerable age, it is probably much less, and coal would not be enough to rush at maximum speed. In addition, given that the boat went on the attack in an underwater position, it was probably in an initially advantageous position. So speed would not help.
      1. AU Ivanov. 3 May 2020 19: 35 New
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        When did Liberty go 19 knots? There were 9 front doors, and if you tried hard, you could squeeze 12, but no more. This is not a turbo ship.
        1. Gato 4 May 2020 20: 43 New
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          When did Liberty go 19 knots?

          Already found out that "Raskova" is not Liberty, from where the author dug up this data - for me it remains a mystery. On the Internet, too, the data is different: in Pedivikia - 14450 tons, 8400 hp, 19 knots; on uboot.net - 9500 tons (registered?), 2500 hp, the speed is not known, but with such power it looks like 10-12 knots.
  11. Alexey Kurtov 3 May 2020 10: 25 New
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    And if they had shot Babanov in the park, then who would have sunk U-362?
  12. Farewell 3 May 2020 10: 48 New
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    originally called Salisbury

    Why so pretentious? The established Russian pronunciation of the English Salisbury is Salisbury.
  13. Tests 3 May 2020 10: 53 New
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    Roman, dear, why did you decide that in 1944 both our civilians and military sailors did not fully understand the mine danger in the Arctic? Just because the captain of "Raskovoi" criminally did not control the actions of the helmsman, who forgot that there is an anti-submarine zigzag? Or, perhaps, the helmsman carried out the captain’s direct order, what course did the ship take and heard the captain’s order in the engine room about the speed of the ship? ... The experience of World War 1 was when the Germans mined the throat of the White Sea, and the British minesweepers based on Arkhangelsk since 1941 it’s not just like that. In 1942 and 1943, there were constant mine installations in our waters by German submarines, including in the Kara Sea, disembarkation of groups of meteorologists and scouts from them, all this was, ours knew about it ... Another question: why did you decide that there were no radio stations on the minesweepers? ... And the logical question arises - why was the ship’s radio station silent? I don’t know what kind of radio station was on “Marina Raskova” and whether it was at all, but the captain in Arkhangelsk, in theory, should have sent a radiogram to the shipping company .... And the boat’s boatswain questions, because he was responsible for the rescue equipment, their serviceability and staffing ... Last year, in Rossiyskaya Gazeta there was an article about this tragedy, they wrote that there was an exhumation of corpses, that they were discovered and buried on the Kungas on Bely Island in a mass grave. That grave was discovered 4 years ago and the investigation began. On the corpses of those were the remains of clothes, in the pockets they found the remains of documents that were sent, for some reason, to Sverdlovsk to the ECU of the Department of Internal Affairs for examination ... As always in the Russian Federation, that in the past, that in present: the question on the question and the question is chasing ...
    And about Wikipedia, you are right at 202%. About the PQ-1 convoy she issues: ".... and 193 Hawker Hurricane fighters, disassembled and packed in boxes." According to all the books, only 15 fighters were delivered in boxes to Arkhangelsk. And "Yelna II" from August 18, 1941 was a Soviet ship, although the spelling of it in different sources is different, either "Elna 2", then "Elna 2", then "Elna" .... At the very bottom of the page in the section: "Arctic convoys in World War II "you can see this:" .... PQ-18 Convoy FB JW-51A JW-51B. " That's just the convoy FB - was not. So designated vessels in solo navigation from the USSR to Great Britain and from Great Britain to the USSR.
    Roman, thanks for the article! The last voyage left the ship from my native Severodvinsk (in the war - Molotovsk).
  14. Gato 3 May 2020 11: 13 New
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    All the same T-116, under the command of the same Babanov, who for some reason was not demoted, was not shot, acting alone, discovered and reliably sank the German submarine U-362, in the Mon Monte Islands off the west coast Taimyr.

    According to Pedivikia:
    After the death of the convoy, the minesweeper commander Babanov was accused of cowardice and desertion. According to legend, to atone, the commander was ordered to go on a free hunt, and not return to the base until he destroyed at least one enemy boat.
  15. VohaAhov 3 May 2020 11: 26 New
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    Everything seems to be true, but the performance characteristics of Marina Raskova are not like that. She could not give way to 19 bonds. And her performance characteristics were as follows- 9083 tons, 7540 gross vehicles, 128,63x17,37x10,61 m, 2500 hp, 12 knots, 1x1- 76 mm, 2 or 4x1-20 mm, 4x1-12,7 mm, 4x1-7,62 mm. There are inconsistencies in armament. 76 mm AU stood precisely. After the discovery of "Marina Raskova" by divers, 2x1-20 mm Erlikona were discovered by divers. Perhaps during rearmament, instead of machine guns, 2 or 4x1-20 mm AUs were installed on the vessel.
    The U-365 submarine, in addition to the T-114, T-118 and Marina Raskova, was sunk by the Soviet big hunter BO-5.12.44 on 230/11.12.44/9, and the English destroyer Kassandra was seriously damaged on 13/1944/51 (torpedo tore off XNUMX m of the bow of the ship). Until the end of the war, the destroyer was not commissioned. And on December XNUMX, XNUMX, the boat found its death from the English depth charges. planes from the escort carrier “Campania” southeast of Fr. Jan Mayen, Norwegian Sea. The entire crew died - XNUMX people.
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 13: 39 New
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      In Pedivikia there is nothing about the Liberty type:
      The ship was launched in April 1919 at a shipyard in the city of Chester (Pennsylvania, USA) under the name Mystic, then bore the names Munmystic (1930), Iberville (1937), Ironclad (1941). The transport was part of the PQ-17 convoy, suffered two accidents twice, after which the Americans refused it, and it was transferred to the Northern State Shipping Company ..

      And where is your TX data from?
    2. hohol95 3 May 2020 14: 07 New
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      sunk 5.12.44 soviet big hunter "BO-230",

      For this episode, the Internet provides other information -
      BO-230 - Soviet large sea hunter of type SC (until 25.08.1944 - SC-1477). Former American boat, built in 1944 at the Quincy Adams shipyard in Quincy (USA) and commissioned on 19.07.1944/08.1944/20.08.1944. In 25.08.1944, it was received by the Soviet crew from the Allies on account of Lend-Lease deliveries and 28.10.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX departed from Mayport, XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX he was enlisted in the lists of ships of the Navy of the USSR, and on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, upon arrival in Polyarny, he became part of the Northern Fleet. He participated in the Great Patriotic War: the protection of internal and external communications in the Barents Sea in 11-12.1944. 05.12.1944/997/19.12.1944 torpedoed and sunk in the Teriberkn area by the German submarine U and XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX expelled from the Navy.
  16. Pvi1206 3 May 2020 11: 33 New
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    each imagines himself a strategist, watching the battle from the side ...
  17. Hypatius 3 May 2020 11: 55 New
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    Isn't the big name given to the steamboat by the American government? Ironclad is an armadillo.
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 13: 33 New
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      In american language lol ironclad can be used in the sense of "solid" (iron argument, iron alibi). The battleship is usually ironclad ram.
      1. BAI
        BAI 3 May 2020 16: 44 New
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        In the game "Civilization" (sort of American, but in any case - English), the ironclad is an armadillo.
        1. Gato 3 May 2020 18: 39 New
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          In general, I am a long-term and incorrigible fan of Civilization, I played in all versions and almost all mods, and by the first civus I started learning English. Well, by the way. And in civilization in general there are a lot of jargon of American origin. Actually ironclad is an adjective, literally meaning "covered with iron" - the first iron or iron-covered wooden ships were called in general. Why the term has taken root - I do not know, as well as monitor, dreadnought - apparently by the names of the first ships of the class.
  18. hohol95 3 May 2020 14: 18 New
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    Dear Roman! Perhaps we should recall the events of August 17, 1942!
    The caravan of Soviet ships, which included the Komsomolets tugboat, was attacked by a German submarine U-209.
    Composition of the caravan: the ship “Nord”, towing the faulty “Komiles” and the coal-lighter “Sh-500”; the Komsomolets towing boat towing the P-4 barge, which carried 300 people. Most of the passengers on the barge were prisoners from Norilskstroy camps, as well as women and children.
    Losses - 305 people

    You can’t do what you’ve done and you won’t be resurrected ...
    It is sad that this happened already in 1944 and so far in the rear!
    But the North is the North ...
    Until now, little mastered, wild and dangerous to humans!
    We all would like - "Little blood on the land of the enemy ...". But it was, as it was ...
  19. Macsen_wledig 3 May 2020 14: 19 New
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    Yes, and the aforementioned series VII submarine instead of torpedoes could carry 26 minutes “TMA” or 39 minutes “TMV”. And in the vertical shafts it was possible to place 16 minutes of the same SMA series.

    Just an extravaganza ... Why fantasize and write something that you have only a minimal idea?
    Kamrad, are you aware that the vertical shafts stood only on the “sevens” of the D series, of which six were already built? Moreover, not one of them served in the north, and by August the 44th, of this series only U 218 remained in service ...
  20. VohaAhov 3 May 2020 14: 36 New
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    Quote: hohol95
    sunk 5.12.44 soviet big hunter "BO-230",

    For this episode, the Internet provides other information -
    BO-230 - Soviet large sea hunter of type SC (until 25.08.1944 - SC-1477). Former American boat, built in 1944 at the Quincy Adams shipyard in Quincy (USA) and commissioned on 19.07.1944/08.1944/20.08.1944. In 25.08.1944, it was received by the Soviet crew from the Allies on account of Lend-Lease deliveries and 28.10.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX departed from Mayport, XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX he was enlisted in the lists of ships of the Navy of the USSR, and on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, upon arrival in Polyarny, he became part of the Northern Fleet. He participated in the Great Patriotic War: the protection of internal and external communications in the Barents Sea in 11-12.1944. 05.12.1944/997/19.12.1944 torpedoed and sunk in the Teriberkn area by the German submarine U and XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX expelled from the Navy.


    Indeed, the U-997 was sunk by the Soviet big hunter, but not the BO-230, but the BO-229, and not December 5.12.44, 7.12.44, but December 230, 365. "BO" sunk U. I will give you links:
    https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/3386.html
    https://uboat.net/allies/merchants/ship/3383.html
    https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?16829
    https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?241642
  21. Region-25.rus 3 May 2020 14: 40 New
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    Quote: MooH
    Whether they are at least bubbly, at least cavitation is unimportant. If an acoustics is at the post, and at least with one ear he listens, then the roar of 4 torpedoes cannot be overlooked. I suppose that the sonar station on such a vessel was ASDIC, at that time a very advanced device. And minesweepers as much as three pieces. And no one heard? It’s strange somehow.
    And the presence of the radar on the Lendlisian minesweeper surprises me greatly. Does not fit into the picture of the world. They didn’t have enough, but they gave it according to lend-lease, and even on such shmakozyavki.

    ASDIC is not a sonar device, it is a sonar like BE. Completely different in principle of operation of the device
    1. Macsen_wledig 3 May 2020 15: 07 New
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      Quote: Region-25.rus
      ASDIC is not a sonar device, it is a sonar like BE. Completely different in principle of operation of the device

      In general, in addition to active direction finding, the ASDIK could work in modes of sound transmission and noise direction finding.
      True, the noise finder worked at a short distance - 3 ... 5 cable.
    2. Gato 3 May 2020 15: 21 New
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      ASDIC is not a sonar device

      And which one? belay
      Completely different in principle of operation of the device

      More?
  22. BAI
    BAI 3 May 2020 16: 41 New
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    The fact is extremely unpleasant for the Soviet Navy, if not shameful, but it must be used. In the West, every year all dogs are brought to Marinescu. We must now constantly poke the Germans face into the killing of civilians and children on the "Raskovaya", and the killing of the wounded on the recently found "Armenia".
    1. Gato 3 May 2020 18: 53 New
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      poke the Germans face into the killing of civilians and children

      The Germans already have a lot to poke their faces at, and the sinking of Raskovoi, although a tragedy for us, is not a war crime, because the ship was armed.
      Who in my opinion should be poked is the Americans, as the only country that has used nuclear weapons, and even against the civilian population.
      1. tanki-tanki 3 May 2020 19: 29 New
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        NF can not be used! stop
      2. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 19: 41 New
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        These were also American boats. T-114, T-116 and T-118 were also transferred to the USSR under Lend-Lease and operated under these numbers as part of the Northern Fleet.е

        Of course, Americans need to poke. Bad ships passed.
        For such sea wolves as in the SF, you immediately need to transfer “Berks” with “Virginia” in addition.
        Just do not care and hands from the ass.
        Classic- "For that there is no tailwind who does not know which way to sail" (c)
        1. Gato 4 May 2020 20: 47 New
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          Semen Semenych, your game is getting cold.
  23. Glagol1 3 May 2020 19: 03 New
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    Probably played against two factors at once:
    1. Training people in 1944 on the rear lines
    2. Underestimation of the risks “so far in the east”. But the Germans knew how to go far.
    Not for us to judge of course. Everlasting memory!
  24. tanki-tanki 3 May 2020 19: 27 New
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    If you have hundreds of people on board, you cannot do so negligently!
  25. bubalik 3 May 2020 20: 05 New
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    information was received that fishermen noticed a German submarine near the island. At the base, they reacted and sent in a search for the Catalina seaplane. The plane flew around the island, the boat was not expected to be found.

    August 12, 1944 at 08 a.m. 00 minutes the N-275 aircraft, piloted by pilot Lt. Col. MN Kozlov, flew out of Dikson airport with the task of exploring the Yenisei Gulf, in order to detect the rafts of the forest and the hydrographic ships “Tsirkul” and “Murmanets” there, and then continue to Amderma to take on board members of the commission of the Glavsevmorput and deliver them to Dikson.
    The N-275 aircraft was at the disposal of the above commission and was temporarily seconded to the Headquarters of Maritime Operations of the Western Region to replace the N-325 aircraft (pilot captain A. Streltsov), which was being repaired in Krasnoyarsk at that time.
    On August 11, in connection with the arrival of the N-325 aircraft at Dixon, the N-275 aircraft was seconded to the GUSMP commission. The task of exploring the Yenisei Gulf was incidental. The code table "ASLR-44", issued to the aircraft during the ice reconnaissance, was handed over to the headquarters of maritime operations on August 12; only the communication documents necessary for radio exchange in the Arctic remained on the plane.
    When following the Yamal Peninsula due to poor visibility, the plane made a mistake at the turning point and, together with reaching Amderma, turned out to be much north of it. On August 12, at 15 hours, having received a drive to the radio compass from Amderma, they lay down on IK-10 °.
    At 15 hours, walking at an altitude of 10-50 meters, with poor visibility (100-1 kilometers), the N-2 aircraft commander saw through the open side glass of the pilot's cabin shell explosions near the aircraft.
    At 15 at the heading of the aircraft, on the left, at a distance of about 15 km, a large tonnage submarine was found, marching in counter-course (1 ° course of the aircraft), which fired at the aircraft from an automatic gun. The crew counted more than 187 breaks. Without armament, the aircraft increased speed, left the firing zone and lost the submarine from sight.
    At 15 hours, the radiogram “Attacked by an enemy submarine” was given to Amderm according to table No. 20 without indicating coordinates.
    The indicated radiogram was transmitted from Amderma to Dixon for technical reasons only at 16 a.m. with a series of "urgent." At 55 she arrived at the headquarters of the maritime operations, from where at 17 she was transferred by telephone to the operational duty officer of the Kars Naval Base (naval base).
    At 16 hours the plane flew over Amderma, determined and determined the point of meeting with the submarine by means of reckoning (w. 10 ° 70 '. D. 10 ° 62'). The aircraft commander instructed the navigator, Comrade Leonov, to immediately inform the meeting point with the submarine by radio in plain text. The aircraft navigator apparently did not understand the order, and the coordinates were not transmitted. Due to the presence of a large overrun, the plane could not land in Amderma, but followed to Ust-Kara, where it landed at 30 pm After landing in Ust-Kara, it turned out that the coordinates of the meeting with the submarine had not been transmitted, so Comrade Kozlov immediately upon reaching the shore through the radio he openly transmitted the indicated coordinates. The meeting point with the submarine was received at the headquarters of the maritime operations at 17 hours and was immediately transferred to the KVMB OD (operational duty officer of the Kara Naval Base) by telephone.
    At 19 hours, the Kozlov telegram from Ust-Kara was decoded at the headquarters of naval operations, in which he communicated the above details of the meeting with the submarine. At 40 hours the contents of the telegram were transmitted to the KVMB OD.
    According to the information available at the headquarters of maritime operations, the Karsky naval base gave a warning about the submarine on August 12 at 19 hours.
    By the indicated time, the headquarters of the maritime operations had information about the time of departure of the submarine (steamboat S.S.) “Marina Raskova” from the village of Molotovsk. There was no information on further advancement of the ship. At the request of the headquarters of maritime operations, the SEC command reported that there was no information about the passage of the “Marina Raskova” submarine in the Novaya Zemlya Straits. It must be assumed that the latter did not correspond to reality, because by the evening of August 12, the “Marina Raskova” submarine was approaching the border of the operational area of ​​the KVMB (70 meridian). Thus, due to these circumstances, the headquarters of the maritime operations did not have the opportunity to link the detection of the submarine and its course with a possible danger to the convoy, in which the “Marina Raskova” submarine followed.
  26. Prisoner 3 May 2020 20: 18 New
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    Like Victory Day, some start to itch. So they strive, sitting in a comfortable office, to study, analyze, point out errors and either condemn, or curse a lie, or think generously to justify. Finally get on with the “great” strategists, experts and judges. Who are we to judge those people who did everything they considered necessary to save their country, and not only ours, from Nazism.
    1. Semenov Semen Semenych 3 May 2020 20: 49 New
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      Probably this is the nature of intelligent man, to learn from.
      I prefer not "If necessary, repeat", but "Never again"
      1. Prisoner 3 May 2020 22: 33 New
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        They will not ask you. Or are you going to make our NATO "friends" your "never again"? Now they are bursting into tears, aware of and driving their equipment for conservation, and the military-industrial complex will be transferred to the production of pots, buckets and dummies. It’s ridiculous. Si vis pacem para bellum latinis. As for those who want to repeat, I myself do not accept, and I do not understand, these enthusiastic "warriors" whose experience is limited, at best, by shooting at a shooting range, or at a training ground. Only to reason and judge about the past, especially about the war, sitting in warmth and comfort, supposedly so that we would not repeat here, we pick up the protracted wounds, at least strange. In academies, at headquarters they study, no matter what happens, in military and command-and-staff exercises. Everything else from the evil one
        1. Semenov Semen Semenych 4 May 2020 03: 14 New
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          Remember how the Su-27, in my opinion in 2005, was fornication and crashed in the Baltic. I don’t remember the country. There were two NATO sides on duty there. The fact that the border was violated, they learned from the police, which detained the pilot, after the bailout.
          This is to say that NATO was then in suspended animation, no one expected a threat.
          A reference to two specific dates when the NATO guys realized that the jokes with Russia were over.
          I suggest 2008 and 2014.
          And yes, NATO is always to blame, but this cannot be proved to those countries that are in line to get there. Maybe they were scared- "If necessary, repeat"?
  27. NF68 3 May 2020 21: 36 New
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    Anything has happened. And this must happen already in 1944.
  28. Normal ok 3 May 2020 23: 09 New
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    When I read about those events, Admiral Nakhimov pops up in my memory. THERE, there was a war. And here ... There are no words. And on Vasya the mechanic was familiar and on the passenger 3 friends ...
  29. Tests 4 May 2020 12: 09 New
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    hohol95 (Alexey), dear, the Internet threw up the version that the caravan of vessels from Khabarov to Narya-Mar was led by the captain of a vessel belonging to the NKVD and all the vessels in the caravan were NKVD vessels. Allegedly, the senior caravan refused to escort minesweepers of the Northern Fleet, which at that time were in Khabarovo. In violation of the orders in force at that time, the caravan commander did not agree to go to sea with the headquarters of the White Sea military flotilla. And on other sites it is alleged that the Northern Sea Shipping Company (SSMP) is the owner of the tugboat Komsomolets, the Sh-500 lighter and the P-4 barge), but there are no documents on this tragedy in the State Archive of the Arkhangelsk Region. And, allegedly, the secret order to create a commission to investigate this tragedy by the People's Commissariat of the Navy of the USSR was not disclosed, inter alia, because on the P-4 barge there were Yugorlag prisoners - former Polish policemen from the Ostashkovsky camp (Katyn case) ... . Fog, fog, in the past, in the past ....
    And a little more clarification. Regarding the death of the convoy with Marina Raskova. We discussed when the sun rises and sets in the Pechora Sea in August, but about the weather: cloudiness, the strength and direction of the wind, and rainfall were not remembered. And we don’t know how many binoculars and what were on the ship and ships, how they worked, the same thing about devices on minesweepers.
  30. Edvid 4 May 2020 12: 11 New
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    The arrogance and stupidity (dullness) of leaders led to the most terrible losses. The same reasons for the death of the ship "Armenia" on the Black Sea. The self-confidence of the command that German ships or boats or aircraft could not be in the Soviet Arctic led to other losses. Only years after the war, secret German airfields were discovered in the rear of the USSR, thousands of kilometers from the front line. Only submarines could create and supply them during the war years.
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  32. ser -siz 4 May 2020 19: 42 New
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    There are many such cases when the situation was incorrectly assessed and which led to maritime tragedies. Only in some cases this was not to be hidden, and in other cases an incorrect assessment of the situations leading to the tragedy was covered up with a heroic feat.
    One such example is the “heroic” death of PASSATA in the Barents Sea.
    This was told to me by my father-in-law Anatoly Nikolaevich Mikhailov, who during the war years helped his father work. At that time they lived in Rynda camp on the northern coast of the Kola Peninsula. His father worked as a foreman and once was sent on a business trip to Murmansk. He returned on the very PASSATE, which accompanied the hydrographic vessel and which was supposed to drop my father-in-law's father in the Rynd camp.
    But after leaving the Kola Bay, the captain of the Passat received a radiogram that 2 German destroyers were spotted on the route of their convoy in the Dalnie Zelentsy area and the captain was ordered to hide in Teriberka. The captain complied with this order and moored at the berth of Teriberka. My father-in-law’s father, having heard that the captain of the Passat was going to continue the combat mission of escorting the hydrograph in the morning, decided, without further ado, not to risk it and not to wait for the morning and clarify the situation, went from Teriberka to Rynda camp on foot.
    In the morning on the cross beam of Dalny Zelentsov he heard an artillery shootout of the Passat. And already in the camp, he learned that the captain of the Passat, hoping in the morning, hoped to slip through the dangerous area and, as a result, killed the Passat, the hydrograph, and the people. They were shot in a dash at a long distance. The Passat gun at these distances was completely useless. But they made a hero out of the captain of the Passat.
  33. Pilat2009 8 May 2020 07: 28 New
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    Quote: Semenov Semen Semenych
    The magic word is a periscope.
    Or rather, his trace.
    The surveillance service had to be carried out properly.

    The death of Abukir, Cressi and someone else there. After this, the British directly forbade standing and saving
  34. Konstantin Vorontsov 9 May 2020 16: 28 New
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    I read the article and here are some comments. The feeling that some of the survivors in that convoy, or the aces of naval military campaigns of that time. To begin with, the article does not indicate the time of day of the convoy's departure and weather conditions when following. And these are extremely important factors . The speed of transport is declared as high as 19, and the escort as 13,5 knots. But this is for new ships. In reality, speeds are much lower, because Почитал статейку и тут некоторые комменты.Ощущение,что некоторые либо из выживших в том конвое,либо асы морских боевых походов того времени.Начну с того,что в статье не указано время суток выхода конвоя и погодные условия при следовании.А это крайне немаловажные факторы.Скорость транспорта заявлена максимально в19,а эскорта-в 13,5 узлов.Но это для новых судов.В реальности скорости значительно ниже,т.к. посудины давно не со стапелей и вряд ли серьезно ремонтировались или обслуживались в условиях военного времени.При том,что суда эскорта уже при выходе из порта имели,как минимум,перегруз в 100 чел.+барахло каждое,их скорость была еще ниже.И,судя по даже этому,скорость конвоя была крайне низка.Явно значительно ниже 10 узлов.При такой скорости надводные об'екты представляют собой идеальную и легкую мишень для любой ПЛ или артсистемы,береговой или корабельной.Теперь,что касаемо действий каплея Бабанова.Командир Т-116 действовал абсолютно правильно.В противном случае,дно Карского моря пополнилось бы еще одним тральщиком и более 400-хстами трупов.К своему перегрузу в минимум 100 чел.+барахло Бабанов добавил еще более 200 людей в мокрой одежде(которые нуждались в уходе и помощи)и,возможно,что-то из спасенного имущества.А это(если брать средний даже вес человека в 80 кг,а тут еще мокрая одежда или форма с амуницией) "довесок" для корабля еще минимум 17-18 тонн.А это огромный вес для корабля водоизмещением всего в 725т.Судно критически перегружено и при этом,по посылу автора,оно должно было преследовать ганссубмарину,которая даже со своим подводным ходом в 7 узлов была бы для него недосягаема,а уж при надводном ходе в почти 17 узлов ушла бы от Т-116 как от стоячего.Да и уверен,что немец бы никуда не уходил от запредельно перегруженного тральщика,идущего со скоростью пешехода,а всадил бы в него торпеду как в тире либо с подводного,либо с надводного положения.Или,всплыв,начал бы его расстреливать из своей дальнобойной "8,8", идя параллельным ходом на безопасном расстоянии от его орудий и автоматов,или еще как удобнее.Мало этого,на до отказа набитом судне действовать команде по боевой тревоге,да еще по преследованию ПЛ,было бы вообще архисложно.То,что Шмелев принял взрывы торпед за подрыв на минах,логично.Малая глубина-это одно из оснований,а второе-определить на слух по разрыву тип подводного боеприпаса весьма проблематично.Далее,сомнительные посылы по наблюдателям и " слухачам".Если на море было волнение(а оно стопудово было-те места не отличаются приверженностью к штилям),то засечь перископ или след от него сложно.А если сумерки,рассвет,темнота,туман,мгла и т.д.,то еще сложнее или вообще невозможно.Действия акустиков на тральщиках-тоже сложный вопрос.Какова мощность станций и их ТТХ,неизвестно.Как и опыт ими управляющих.Кроме того,в лодке тоже не увальни ые сидели.Ведемейер был битый и опытный хлопец и дело свое знал отлично.По продуктам и воде,которых не оказалось в части спассредств.Каким образом и при каких условиях происходил их спуск на воду-неизвестно.Вполне возможно,что их потеря произошла при как раз спуске на воду.Как может происходить спуск спассредств на воду,наглядно показано в фильме "Титаник".А может,их выбросили специально,чтобы принять больше людей.Всяко могло быть.С теплого дивана или кресла делать выводы о перипетиях войны,ясное дело,надежнее,точнее и комфортнее,а главное-исключительно " верно".Но вот ежели бы стратегов и тактиков с дивана бы туда,в то холодное море да под огонь немецкой ПЛ,то кто его знает,как было бы с ними и их "стратегиями" в тот момент...
  35. severok1979 2 June 2020 20: 44 New
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    Before putting rhetorical questions into the headline, the author should have read about the PK-9 convoy in April 1945 - then there were 2-18 security ships for 20 transports, but as a result, one transport was sunk, another was torpedoed, the submarines did not suffer any losses. Then it will be clear that the DB-5 in August 1944 simply did not have a chance, just like the VA-18 in September 1943. Our PLO, with the qualitative and quantitative growth of security ships, remained ineffective. The quality of the rescue operations only exacerbated our losses.
  36. Petrol cutter 14 June 2020 20: 48 New
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    Thanks to the author for the article. I personally, when I was young, did not even know about such events. And here it is! ..
    Of course such a development of events ... Yes, and even in the North Seas ...
    To this day, as I recall, the Barents Sea, I will tremble! You think, God forbid, let’s fall into the water right now, this is the end. recourse
    1. Petrol cutter 14 June 2020 21: 04 New
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      It’s scary comrades. The edge is so scary.
      War at sea is a terrible thing. There is no land. There is not burrowing. And do not dig in ...