On the modernized Su-57 plan to abandon hydraulic systems

In the near future, Russian airborne forces can get into service a new modernized Su-57. According to Izvestia, citing sources in the defense industry complex, the updated aircraft will receive electromechanical drives instead of the hydraulic system.

The first flight of the upgraded Su-57 can take place as early as 2022, work is already underway to completely replace the hydraulic control system with an electromechanical one. It is planned that the tests of the new fighter will take at least two years. In addition to checking the flight characteristics of the updated fighter, it is necessary to carry out work on the reliable protection of electric drives from external interference and lightning discharges.

It is noted that the complete transition to electric drives is technically a very difficult task, but when solved it gives undeniable advantages over “ordinary” airplanes. It is assumed that replacing the hydraulic system with electric drives will reduce the radar visibility of the aircraft, simplify its maintenance and make the fighter more resilient in case of defeat. Also, the fighter will become much lighter and more maneuverable.

The problem of replacing the hydraulic system with an electromechanical system is also being dealt with in the West. So, the American F-35 fighter already has a mixed electro-hydraulic system: each tail unit has its own independent hydraulic circuit, which is controlled by an electric drive. The Swedish company SAAB, which manufactures Saab JAS 39 Gripen fighters, is developing a fully electromechanical control system for its aircraft.

Note that although the Su-57 is still at the final stage of testing, Russian engineers are already preparing several programs for its future modernization, because science does not stand still, and the modernization potential incorporated in the aircraft is very large.

Comments

[Zaurbek]

This is a very promising topic in the civilian sector, even more.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Zaurbek

promising topic in the civilian sector

Well, if I'm not mistaken, then B787 does not have a hydraulic system in our classical sense: roughly speaking, each hydraulic motor has its own hydraulic system. In case of failure, the unit is pulled out and the other is inserted, the terminals are connected and forward.

[voyaka uh]

On the first serial (board number 1) did the hydraulics fail or what?
Because of this rework?

[novel66]

Yes, there are all several backup circuits, hardly

[venik]

Quote: voyaka uh

On the first serial (board number 1) did the hydraulics fail or what? Because of this rework?

======
Is not a fact! What exactly happened there will be kept secret for a long time, which is understandable. But, in 10 pre-production cars - nothing of the kind happened. Perhaps factory marriage ..... Although, who knows?
And the transition to electric drives is quite natural modernization process. After all, it was written that EVERYONE is trying to get away from "hydraulics", even though it is not easy!

[BARKAS]

There it is reported that this is to increase the survivability of the aircraft with a close rocket rupture.
https://www.vpk-news.ru/articles/56702?utm_source=warfiles.ru

[Grigory_45]

Quote: BARKAS

There it is reported that this is to increase the survivability of the aircraft with a close rocket break

fragments of warhead missiles with the same success will kill harnesses and wires ... No control - and that's all, flew.

[vargo]

Most likely it will be easier to conduct secondary circuits with wires than hydraulics. But in general, when discussing a rocket explosion, it seems to me that they are already thinking more about saving the crew than continuing to fly further. I think the main point is still weight, and ease of maintenance. Nevertheless, the electric drive is easier to maintain, and it has a longer life without service. There are many advantages in this.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: vargo

I think the main point is still weight

Do you think that electromechanics drive less hydraulics? Electromechanics should be understood as the entire circuit - from the controller to the actuator, and signal cables and power wires as thick as hydraulic tubes for transmitting current in a hundred and a half amperes, gearbox (or other device for transmitting torque from the motor shaft). Imagine what force develop a drive to move ailerons or rudders? Yes, even at high speed?

Quote: vargo

Nevertheless, the electric drive is easier to maintain, and it has a longer life without service

I doubt it. Especially for drives that operate in reverse mode (and the airplane has most of them) Now, if there were no moving parts in the drive, then it would be a different matter ...

I myself am an electrician, and I will ardently defend "electricity" as "mine", but only where the use is justified. In power circuits, where great efforts are required, with a good reaction time, I will give preference to hydraulics (controlled by electronics, of course)

[spectr]

I have long been somehow explained that hydraulics is good for everyone, except in cases where a large temperature variation is presented to the product. Different temperatures require different working fluids. And if during the operation the warriors overlooked, then the mechanism can be killed.
I don’t know how to do it on an airplane, but I won’t be surprised at the presence of a heating system for hydraulics.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: spectr

I have long been somehow explained that hydraulics is good for everyone, except in cases where a large temperature variation is presented to the product.

This is the main disadvantage of hydraulics. Even on land vehicles with a hydraulic drive (loaders, excavators), the oil has to be heated at low temperatures (especially on "dead-end" branches, without fluid circulation) for the line to work (otherwise the pump and valve valves can be safely lost), with intensive work of hydraulic mechanisms - cool

[ancient]

Quote: Gregory_45

Do you think that electromechanics drive less hydraulics?

Keep .. as they say ... the same ... "plagued by vague doubts" about the state of the mass-dimensional parameters of the aircraft, after such modernization

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: ancient

.. "plagued by vague doubts"

If you will, then classical hydraulics is changed to separate hydro-mechanical blocks, which include: working fluid, a pump for creating pressure and an actuator as such. Each block is autonomous - it pulled out the terminals and that’s all, we change the block ... If simple, then a similar block for each actuator. B787 example

[ancient]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

then classical hydraulics are changed to separate hydro-mechanical blocks

I read a little differently the quote - "..... updated aircraft will receive electromechanical drives instead of the hydraulic system.
.... work complete replacement of the hydraulic system Electromechanical controls are already underway. "
Don't you find that there is a difference between the definitions "separate g / s blocks" and .. "complete replacement of g / s"?

[Pete mitchell]

I cited B787 as an example. It still has hydraulics, but the very construction of the system is already different.

[ancient]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

I cited B787 as an example

I read it carefully. But probably all this was foreseen even at the design stage, and not at the "stage." (Cram into the given not crammed, for "warriors" this usually happens at stage "B" and then the most interesting begins .. "interesting" - soldiers say
what is it" , and the "civilians" claim that "this" ).

[Pete mitchell]

To not talk about Boeing, this is a powerful design school, not without Russian participation, and production schools.
Option for a total change in the system’s construction scheme, after the officially announced production launch

Quote: ancient

cram into a given non-crammed

- a huge minus, although if there is time and finances, why not

[ancient]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

To not talk about Boeing, this is a powerful design school, not without Russian participation, and production schools.

And who disputes this?

[fider]

Ancient Yesterday, 18:30 PM NEW
+1
Quote: Pete Mitchell
To not talk about Boeing, this is a powerful design, not without Russian participation, and production schools [i] [/ i]
I dispute. How embarrassed are you to push Russian participation here. Obviously lagging behind in all respects of civil aviation, and not just lagging behind, but lagging behind forever.

[Filosoff]

People who operate with the categories of eternity always amuse: forever, never, etc. etc.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Pete Mitchell

classical hydraulics are replaced by separate hydro-mechanical blocks, which include: working fluid, a pump for creating pressure and an actuator as such. Each block is autonomous - it pulled out the terminals and that’s all, we change the block ... If simple, then a similar block for each actuator. B787 example

and nevertheless, hydraulics remains hydraulics (it is now customary to call a hydraulic actuator such a drive in which the power unit is hydraulic, and it can be controlled by any (mechanical, hydraulic, electric). And this is not close to electromechanics.
From the article:

Izvestia reports with reference to sources in the defense industry complex that the updated aircraft will receive electromechanical drives instead of a hydraulic system.

[Pete mitchell]

Thank you for enlightening about the hydraulic drive .. sorry to laugh.
We talked about changing the logic of building hydraulic systems. Avoiding the classic tank / pump / piping / hydromechanism ... to individual units that include all of this. Each unit is a working fluid / pump / drive, very compact, easy to replace. Imagine: for example, you need three hydraulic actuators for a flap: for a pilot, anyway - these are three hydraulic actuators powered by one hydraulic system; or three blocks working on this particular flap. Designers are not all the same - they fight for weight and volume.
And the control is still yes: the terminals are connected and that's it, the main thing is not to confuse the polarity
And yet, yes, it’s not electromechanics, yet without hydraulic drives yet

[Pete mitchell]

Senor Grigory, you still mislead me ... sorry later I read: we are basically talking about the same thing

Quote: Gregory_45

It is for this approach that I have always advocated. Block electrohydraulics combining speed and high forces with electronic control flexibility

At B787, this principle is implemented. Retrained on his older brother, and next to the instructors admired - that’s the future ...

[Marconi41]

At one time, the electric drive control on cars was not a dream come true, but now it’s almost the norm.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Marconi41

At one time, the electric drive control on cars was not a dream come true

electric cars are older than their counterparts with ICE. It is working copies were created in the middle of the 19th century.

Scottish Robert Anderson electric crew

And tanks with electric transmission (Saint-Chamonix, France, World War I) have long been known

Electric cars have not been improved for a long time, due to the lack of capacious batteries and infrastructure for such cars.

Electromechanical drives have also been known for a very long time, and are widely used. It's not about what's newer, but about what is preferred for a fighter.

[Grigory_45]

and look at road construction equipment (loaders, excavators, cranes, etc.). Almost all of it is hydraulically. Why? After all, it is technically possible to put an electric drive, but they don’t.

[ydjin]

Grigory_45
April 28 2020 22: 38
+1
and look at road construction equipment (loaders, excavators, cranes, etc.). Almost all of it is hydraulically. Why? After all, it is technically possible to put an electric drive, but they don’t.
Not quite so, on super-heavy equipment such as mining dump trucks with a carrying capacity of over 100 tons, the drive scheme:
ICE-ELECTRIC GENERATOR-ELECTRIC MOTOR on drive wheels which allows to significantly reduce the weight of the transmission.

[not main]

Quote: Gregory_45

Electromechanics should be understood as the entire circuit - from the controller to the actuator, and signal cables and power wires as thick as hydraulic tubes for transmitting current in a hundred and a half amperes, gearbox (or other device for transmitting torque from the motor shaft). Imagine what force develop a drive to move ailerons or rudders? Yes, even at high speed?

Everything is right! And yet not right. Actually, no one refuses hydraulics, just the hydraulic pumps are transferred to the actuators, and the control and pumps are powered by electricity.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: non-primary

Actually, no one refuses hydraulics, just the hydraulic pumps are transferred to the actuators, and the control and pumps are powered by electricity

It is for this approach that I have always advocated. Block electrohydraulics combining speed and great effort with the flexibility of electronic control. But the article clearly says:

According to Izvestia, citing sources in the defense industry, the updated aircraft will receive electromechanical drives instead of the hydraulic system

[not main]

Quote: Gregory_45

Gregory_45 (Gregory) Today, 06:21 New

Newspapers and TV, or rather, their journalists about technology know the damage of a student, although many students will give them a head start! And they know how to say, with a smart face!

[VO3A]

And what is a breakthrough in the manufacture of compact and powerful electric motors? No !!!
Will the stabilizer consumption and the intensity of its movements during maneuvers and takeoff and landing modes be able to provide an electric drive? Can provide the necessary effort, combined with a quick shift? ...
The batteries will not be enough to ensure the operation of the mechanisms in emergency conditions, the requirements for the APU are different and the operating modes too ...
Switching to four-wheel drive is a theoretical premise, no more ...

[Newone]

Actually it was outlined.

[VO3A]

Any reference or a few ...

[Newone]

https://fpi.gov.ru/projects/khimiko-biologicheskie-i-meditsinskie-issledovaniya/vtsp-elektrodvigatel/

[Cheerock]

And for all the wealth you need generation with a decent margin. As far as I remember, in the dreamliner, the share of batteries and generators has some amazing weight.

[Sirocco]

Quote: Gregory_45

No control - and that’s all, flew in.

There is control, in the form of mechanical drives, the diameter of the rods is something about 35 mm. (I may be mistaken in diameter) If both the hydraulics and the servo are damaged, the pilot will squeeze the juice out of the helm, but the car will save itself.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Sirocco

There is control, in the form of mechanical drives, the diameter of the rods is something about 35 mm. (I may be mistaken in diameter) If both the hydraulics and the servo are damaged, the pilot will squeeze the juice out of the helm, but the car will save itself.

on modern machines there is no redundant mechanical wiring.
now they put irreversible EMDS (EMDS with full responsibility), in which the transmission of control signals from the pilot (from the RUS or RPPU) to the actuators is implemented in the form of electrical signals, and other than electronic control, it is not otherwise provided. .Mechanical wiring does not ensure compliance with the requirements, rather even evil than good, and it is completely abandoned

[Grigory_45]

Quote: venik

quite natural process of modernization. After all, it was written that EVERYONE is trying to get away from "hydraulics"

yah? Is everything straight? Hydraulics will be used and will be used, in combination with electronics it covers all needs

[venik]

Quote: Gregory_45

Hydraulics will be used and will be used, in combination with electronics it covers all needs

=======
Well, start with the fact that hydraulic valves also need some kind of electric drive to control. Well, and secondly, the hydraulics are much less reliable compared to the electric motor: the hydraulic line or gasket burst (and the pressure there is wow! The Su-27, for example, has pressure in the hydraulic system 270 atmospheres!!!), the pressure in the system dropped - and kirdyk!
And taking into account multiple overloads and temperature differences, the probability that hidden defects will come out is very strong! Even in cars, this is not uncommon, and even in airplanes .......

[Grigory_45]

Quote: venik

hydraulics control valves also need some kind of no electric actuator

naturally. Hydro-hydro systems or mechanics-hydraulics irrevocably a thing of the past, electro-hydraulics takes their place. But the control signals are low-current (it does not take much to power the solenoid of the solenoid valve), and they do not affect the speed of the hydraulics. I am more concerned with actuators - those things that will directly affect a certain node of the aircraft (landing gear, aileron, flap, etc.) These nodes also have grease (it is everywhere where there are moving parts of the mechanism, and it again behaves differently at different temperatures), they are also subject to stress and wear. Powerful small-sized electric motors need to be cooled (almost all military electric cars (prototypes) have cooled generators and electric motors, and often also converters)

There are no complaints about the control circuits (digital buses are quite reliable, in addition, they have duplication - both physical in interfaces and in protocols), but as for the executive mechanisms - I personally am not sure that an electrician for a fighter would be the best choice. However, the future will show. And for this it is not necessary to wait for the upgraded Su-57 - the system can be run in a flying laboratory

[40821]

Well, flaps are not controlled by hydraulic cylinders, but through screw lifts driven by transmission. But transmission shafts rotate from a hydraulic motor or an electric motor.

[Eug]

270? Or 280? If not mistaken, step 70 atm. - 210 was on the Su-27 280, then the forecast is 350. I have not encountered this for a long time, I just want to clarify.

[venik]

Quote: Eug

on the Su-27 280, further forecast 350

====
Yes, right! That's just on the Su-27 - pressure in the hydraulic system 280 kg / sq.cm, which when translated into "atmospheres" gives a figure of 271.2 atm.

[Eug]

Thank! I did not take into account the different units and the recount ...

[venik]

Quote: Eug

I did not take into account the different units and the recount ...

=======
Not scary! There is a set of translation - 1.03. At low pressures (which we usually encounter in everyday life) it’s like "the piano does not play", but at high pressures - these 3% "with a penny" and crawl out.

[Stalllker]

Is a meter of wire lighter than a meter of a hydrotube?

[venik]

Quote: Stalllker

Is a meter of wire lighter than a meter of a hydrotube?

=====
Well, what do you think? WHAT is easier?

[Stalllker]

I didn’t ask you))) and it was a leading question, so that a person understood the essence of replacing hydro with electro

[venik]

Quote: Stalllker

I didn’t ask you

=======
And we, that have already switched to "YOU"? It seems that they did not play in one sandpit and did not write in one pot ...
Or rudeness in "you" blood?

[Stalllker]

YOU appeal to one person, YOU to two or more

[vargo]

It seems the lessons about the standards of decency, you missed) It's about them

[Stalllker]

There are no such lessons and there are no rules in Russian either, but I don’t need to instill my own standards of decency

[seregatara1969]

Inside the tube there is expensive oil, so as not to freeze. Hydraulic tank hydraulic pump filters.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: seregatara1969

Inside the tube there is expensive oil, so as not to freeze. Hydraulic tank hydraulic pump filters

is the electromechanical drive straight without lubrication? Second - where will you get extra electricity? The hydraulic motor is connected to the line of the working turbojet engine, and while the motors are working, there is pressure. For electricity, it will be necessary to put additional generators. And they are not small things and not light ...

[Aag]

A hydraulic motor for hydraulics is the same as a generator for electricians. The question is which is more reliable, easier, cheaper (priorities may vary). Plus, the drives themselves, of course, with sensors ...
Electric harnesses, apparently, are easier to test and test than hydraulic lines. BUT I HAVE A QUESTION to people close to the topic: what about survivability? In terms of electronic warfare, (with EMR, it seems to me that it’s clear, but this is, apparently, an extreme case) .Is it impossible that it will become possible to deprive the pilot of the helm by means of a microwave with an open door? (I will exaggerate, of course, those who know will understand).

[Grigory_45]

Quote: AAG

BUT, I have a QUESTION, to people close to the topic: what about survivability? In terms of EW

exactly the same as on an airplane with hydraulic (pneumatic) drives.
All control is long electronic, the only difference is in executive (power) mechanisms. That .. that will push the elevator (for example) - a hydraulic cylinder or an electromechanical actuator. Management in any case is booster (without direct connection with the control body), through digital buses, controllers, power switches, electrovalves, etc. If the control circuit fails, then it does not matter what type of actuators are.

[Aag]

I agree, and I understand what you mean. I'm not "bargaining" :-))), but you also understand that it is realistic to create, reproduce a separate block (executive, controlling) (within certain limits, of course, protection of all harnesses can it turns out that the game is ...

[Grigory_45]

Quote: AAG

Electrical harnesses, apparently laid, are easier to test than hydraulic lines

it should not be that simpler to the manufacturer, but that which favorably affects the qualities of the aircraft. The electromechanical drive, for all its simplicity, has a significant drawback - the low reaction rate. If the pressure rises almost instantly when the valve is opened, then in order for the electric actuator to extend the stem (for example), a certain amount of time will pass, since the transfer of mechanical energy from the electric motor goes through a reduction gear)

Yes, the hydraulic line may be damaged. But it is possible to prevent leakage using shut-off valves, and introduce duplication. Electrically, the wires can also be damaged - the device will also fail.

[40821]

If we take an analogy, a hydraulic motor is an electric motor. A hydraulic pump is a generator. A hydraulic motor is a consumer, and a hydraulic pump is a source of hydraulic energy.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: seregatara1969

Hydraulic tank hydraulic pump filters

the electromechanical is also full of flaws. For example, one of many: an electric motor has a low torque on the shaft, which means that a gearbox is required, and the greater the drive needs to develop, the greater the gear ratio. These are large dimensions and mass. This is a low output speed. All this is very bad for a combat aircraft.

[Aag]

Well, probably, this is a matter of the power supply of the apparatus, overall dimensions. If the electrician allows it, could, with the level of development of our industry, the generators are more powerful, the position sensors are more discrete, sensitive, the electric drives are more powerful, converters with other gear ratios ...
In the end, thousands of hybrids from the Japanese automobile industry are driving on our roads, which have not weak dynamic characteristics, with decent reliability, but much more profitable in terms of efficiency.
But with noise immunity, I did not receive a detailed answer.

[Grigory_45]

control circuits are the same for hydraulic or electromechanical actuators. Therefore, the control circuits both there and there are potentially exposed to interference and external influences. Moreover, just low-current circuits are more susceptible to interference (the level of interference can be comparable with a useful signal).
When using electromechanical drives, interference is added - from electric motors, generators, converters, etc., i.e. from the aircraft’s onboard power supply. Aircraft must meet more stringent EMC requirements

[Aag]

Thank you for the time spent on me. But, unfortunately, I didn’t learn anything new. Perhaps someone will find something ...
Thank you again ...

[40821]

Well, AMG 10 has already gone down in history. Now and for almost 40 years, almost synthetics. Phosphoric acid esters or silicon-based siloxanes. Nzhzh, Hyget, Skydroll, 7-50С

[Kasym]

Electric drives, Alexey, are on many civilian aircraft. But the problem is that their "reaction" is slower. The planes are controlled by electric motors and action takes time. For maneuverable combat aircraft this is unacceptable - sometimes it takes minutes to shift the ailerons or stabilizers with electric drives. For an airliner, this is normal, but for a combat one ... Therefore, we used hydraulics.
Now we managed to do it. Duplicating power circuits for an electric motor is easier. And if the hydraulics are damaged and the fluid sticks out, any fighter loses control.
This is not a rework, but a reduction in weight, an improvement in aircraft reliability. The work was carried out by the company APKB (part of the group of companies "Socium").

[voyaka uh]

Is the drive slower? Are you sure?
But now there are inverters.
Inverter-motor-single-stage gearbox.
Here Tesla overtakes Bugatti and Ferrari playfully.
How on airplanes I don’t know for sure ...

[Kasym]

The aircraft performs a maneuver with the help of control planes - ailerons, stabilizers, control wheels. On civilian aircraft, into the porthole, when landing and taking off, you can see how it works - rather slowly. Due to the large overloads and speeds on combat aircraft, powerful hydraulic systems are used.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: voyaka uh

Is the drive slower? Are you sure?

absolutely. It is a fact. Naturally, if we compare systems comparable in power. For example, an electric drive with a power of half a watt can throw a rod as vigorously as a hydraulic actuator, but what for, who needs it on an airplane, where the effort on the control planes reaches tens of tons?

Quote: voyaka uh

Inverter-motor-single-stage gearbox

and it is precisely in the motor-reducer chain that the "hitch" of the electromechanical drive lies. The inertia of the motor plus a decrease in speed (rotation frequency) at the output of the gearbox (they are set to decrease). When the valve is opened, the pressure rises almost instantly.

Quote: voyaka uh

Here Tesla overtakes Bugatti and Ferrari playfully

Comparison with a car is absolutely incorrect, because it gives nothing but an awareness of the superiority of the electric motor in the dynamics of acceleration over the internal combustion engine. And the question is, what does hydraulics have to do with it?

[Kasym]

Grigory, you should have "attached" the answer to Alexey, not to me. Otherwise, he will not see it.

[voyaka uh]

I understood your answer, thanks.
Comparison with Tesla is why: the engine and drive are made brilliantly simple there.
Their patent was bought / intercepted by all competitors.
And this design allows a budget car to overtake
supercars worth a million.
That is, the drive reaction speed is high. With the speed of hydraulics I can’t
compare.

[40821]

What a terrible nonsense. Where on many civilian aircraft do electric motors control planes? In most planes, rudders and ailerons from steering drives are controlled. That is, hydraulic cylinders.

[Joker62]

No, the hydraulics did not refuse, but simply modernized for this task - replacing the hydro with the electric.
It's not so simple, there are nuances, I will not list everything, read the article again, and you will see, everyone has a problem.

[Banzai]

No dumb dill. It's just that everything is going according to plan. But you don’t understand this under the pan.

[Piramidon]

Quote: voyaka uh

On the first serial (board number 1) did the hydraulics fail or what?
Because of this rework?

For those who read only the headlines and immediately make their conclusions:

It is assumed that replacing the hydraulic system with electric drives will reduce the radar visibility of the aircraft, simplify its maintenance and make the fighter more resilient in case of defeat. Also, the fighter will become much lighter and more maneuverable.

[NN52]

voyaka uh (Alexey)

It has nothing to do with it. "Firmware" software.

[letinant]

On the SU-27SM is an EDSU (Electronic Remote Control System).

[novel66]

which does not exclude hydraulics

[letinant]

Quote: novel xnumx

which does not exclude hydraulics

But it does not confirm.

[Zaurbek]

This refers to the drive ...... and the exclusion of air intake from the turbojet engine. In the turbojet only the generator and wires in the fuselage. Everything in the fuselage runs only on electricity. That is the goal.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Zaurbek

and exclusion of air intake from turbojet engines

What is the relationship between hydraulics and air from a turbojet engine?

[Zaurbek]

This is me about the concept .... that they want to replace not only hydraulics

[Grigory_45]

Quote: letinant

On the SU-27SM is an EDSU (Electronic Remote Control System).

Keyword - Management System. That is, the control signals are electric, and the power (executive) part can be any - at least mechanical, at least pneumatic, at least hydraulic.

[venik]

"...Note that although the Su-57 is still in the final stages of testing..."
=====
Something I probably misunderstand ... It seems like the side that crashed and was the first SERIAL?
It is clear that the tests continue and WILL continue (even after entering the "series", as modernization) - the process is quite NATURAL - always and everywhere!), But to write that the car, SERIES production kind of started, "is in the final stages of testing"..... Well, somehow" not camilfo "!

[knn54]

Vladimir. EVERYTHING IS SIMPLE:
-beat extra funds;
-shift of terms.
Well, I do not believe that it "dawned" on this issue literally today.

[venik]

Quote: knn54

Vladimir. EVERYTHING IS SIMPLE:
-beat extra funds;
-shift of terms.
Well, I do not believe that it "dawned" on this issue literally today.

=======
Nikolay! Well, like NOBODY said that SERIAL production will be delayed before introducing a full EMDS?
Just SOUND one of the areas of modernization ....
Although, if you find yourself are right - it will be VERY SAD!

[Grigory_45]

Quote: venik

Batch production will be delayed until the introduction of a full EMDS?

oh sniff))) EMDS on a plane, and so it is, note - they are on all Sukhoi fighters. Without EDSU the plane does not fly!

[venik]

Quote: Gregory_45

oh sniff))) EMDS on a plane, and so it is, note - they are on all Sukhoi fighters.

=======
Yah? Right on ALL? And on the Su-15 too? There seems to be booster control system, from pedals and knobs - through power steering and hard traction! The same is true for the Su-25, Su-24 and even the Su-27, where the HYDRAULIC SYSTEM provides operation steering gears of the control system, landing gears and their wings, wheel brakes, air intakes (wedge and mesh), brake flap.
But starting with the Su-30 - yes there! EDSU (as on all aircraft of generation 4+ and 4 ++)!
So your statement:

Quote: Gregory_45

Without EDSU the plane does not fly!

Sorry - TOTAL Nonsense!
PS But what the author of the article says about the "hydraulics" on the Su-57 - he himself is in shock - there is most likely something wrong ... Maybe some mean elements control systems where hydraulic drives are still used (for example, cleaning-releasing the chassis?) ...

[Grigory_45]

Quote: venik

Yah? Right on ALL?

Quote: venik

Quote: Gregory_45
Without EDSU the plane does not fly!

Sorry - TOTAL Nonsense!

you must understand that we are talking about modern fighters, and not about biplanes or passenger liners. And yes, I did not add an important word - without a computerized EMDS. Those. the system that without the intervention of the pilot has the ability to control the aerodynamic surfaces and systems of the aircraft.

Quote: venik

Yah? Right on ALL? And on the Su-15 too?

You would still remember the Su-2))

As far as modern combat airplanes are concerned, neither the Su-35, nor the F-22, nor the Su-57, nor the F-22 (nor a dozen more different machines) can survive in the air without a computerized EDSU. Only thanks to the computer do they fly "straight"

[Errr]

To achieve the maximum possible maneuverability, the Su-27 was initially longitudinally statically unstable. Without EDSU it was not even in the project.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Herrr

To achieve the maximum possible maneuverability, the Su-27 was initially longitudinally statically unstable. Without EDSU it was not even in the project.

This is a well-known fact.

[Ross xnumx]

The first flight of the upgraded Su-57 may take place as early as 2022 ....
... although the Su-57 is still in the final stages of testing ...
... because science does not stand still, and the modernization potential inherent in the aircraft is very large.

So what is more there: the modernization potential or the modernization potential?
Here it is, Mikhalych! Science does not stand still, official serial production has not yet been completed, but the potential for modernization is in store ...
Or maybe we’ll tell the truth that a product called Su-57 is “raw” enough to frighten them into a potential adversary like that?
Something to me, these potential bookmarks in projects resemble the care of descendants who need to leave something to cut ...

[pru-pavel]

Give in a series of upgraded Su-57SM18M!

[fa2998]

Evo has not yet been released into the series, they are already modernizing it. This is an endless performance.
Minus, I see so. The plane is almost 20 years in development.

[military_cat]

Roughly like Angara-A5M: it has not put a kilogram of payload into orbit, but is already being "modernized".

[venik]

Quote: fa2998

Minus, I see so. The plane is almost 20 years in development.

=======
And HOW MUCH was the development of the F-35 can you tell me?
Only, do not call Christ God the year 2001 (this year, when the design of the T-10 (Su-57) started, the Americans have already completed the competition and have chosen the finished Lockheed Martin project (model X-35), the development of which began somewhere in 1996-1997!

[Grigory_45]

Quote: venik

T-10 (Su-57)

Su-57 (PAK FA) has an OKB index T-50
The working design of the X-35 prototype began in 1996, the T-50 in 1999 (it was in that year that the Sukhoi Design Bureau officially began work on the T-50 - the 5th generation fighter, the new generation I-21 combat aviation complex

[venik]

Quote: Gregory_45

Su-57 (PAK FA) has an index of OKB T-50

======
Well, of course - T-50! As for the "T-10" - it's just a mistake! I noticed it myself only after your comment.
----

Quote: Gregory_45

The working design of the X-35 prototype began in 1996, the T-50 in 1999 (it was in that year that Sukhoi Design Bureau officially began work on the T-50, the 5th generation fighter

======
About the X-35 (aka F-35 afterwards) - it’s like he wrote it, but the T-50 - it seems like the preliminary design began in the second half of 2001 ... Although the difference is not big! In any case - from the beginning of design to the first flight, what they have, what we have - has passed OK. 10 years. Which in itself surprisingly, given that the states did not survive such a terrible collapse of the economy (and the whole country) and the brain drain from high-tech industries, which we experienced!
True, the F-35 troops began to arrive already in 2015 (that is, 9 years after the first flight), and we have the first production ones planned only this year (the difference is 11 years) ..... This is a question for comment from fa2998complaining that the Su-57 is almost 20 years in development.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: venik

And HOW MUCH was the development of the F-35 you won’t tell

They began to engage in several programs that were later combined in '93.

[Victor Tsenin]

They do not upgrade, but carry out surveys for the future, which is a completely normal and wise process. Allows you to have a theoretical and practical plan for further product improvement.

The whole life cycle will undergo such work, I write to the sarcasm of some commentators.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: fa2998

Evo has not yet been released into the series, they are already modernizing it. This is an endless performance.

This is normal practice: the plant launches the car in series, and the design bureau begins to prepare its next modification.

[Vita vko]

Quote: fa2998

Minus, I see so. The plane is almost 20 years in development

The development is unique and it is impossible to rush engineers. They hurried with the first serial, as a result of a disaster. Now the aircraft industry has developed a unique situation as a result of which it is necessary for a serious future to start rolling in technologies for a promising long-range interceptor.

[A. Privalov]

The first flight of the upgraded Su-57 may take place as early as 2022

And where, sorry, NOT modernized?
There you still have to work and work with a file - it has not been brought to a point, and now it will be "modernized".
Okay...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: A. Privalov

I still have to work and work with a file - they haven’t gotten it to the point, but now it will be "modernized".

This is a parallel work. Some lick the serial machine and begin its mass production, while others prepare the next modification to replace the serial product.
Remember how many iterations the same "twenty-first" or "twenty-third" has passed.

[Fantazer911]

The modernization probably also podromitsya finish the file to the required size

[fa2998]

Quote: venik

And HOW MUCH was the development of the F-35 can you tell me?

Yes, a one-year-old, since 2001. But these are 3 (three) aircraft and evo have already made 500, and a thousand pilots to it. They can upgrade easily.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: fa2998

one year old, since 2001

I wildly apologize: in 2001 the result of the competition was announced. They began to deal with them in '93

[Grigory_45]

On the modernized Su-57 plan to abandon hydraulic systems. Work on the complete replacement of the hydraulic control system with an electromechanical one is already underway.

Well, why is this? Hydraulics has its advantages, and it is unreasonable to abandon it
The hydraulic drive has enough advantages:
- Stepless control of the speed of movement of the output link, a wide range of speeds, high-quality provision of small steady speeds.
- Small dimensions and weight of hydraulic units
- Great speed, excellent acceleration time, due to the lower moment of inertia of the rotating parts does not exceed fractions of a second, unlike electric motors, in which the acceleration time can be several seconds.
- hydraulics allows frequent reversal of the movement of the output link of the hydraulic transmission (this is important for a fighter - modern machines fly only with the help of a computer, controlled planes are constantly engaged)
- ease of converting rotational motion into reciprocating and reciprocating without using any mechanical gears subject to wear

no, I don’t understand the promise ... Or are we just not good at hydraulics? So about the best Russian electromechanical drives in the world, something is not heard ...

[igor67]

Quote: Gregory_45

no, I don’t understand the promise ... Or are we just not good at hydraulics?

the oil used in the AMG hydraulic system is very harmful, at our rembase in the hydraulic repair shop, a lot of people died of cancer, the influence of AMG vapors, I worked for six months and left this workshop, no milk can help for the wreckers.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: igor67

oil used in the AMG hydraulic system, very harmful

I won’t say anything about aviation hydraulic oil. I don’t know ... But liquid rocket fuel is also not a healing mixture, but nobody canceled rockets (and rocket engines). switch to other types of fuel, less toxic.

[igor67]

Quote: Gregory_45

I won’t say anything about aviation hydraulic oil.

I just answered your rhetorical question about the quality of the oil, on the same MI24, which was redone at one time for the Algerian Air Force, they removed a lot of things from the hydraulics to reduce weight and prices, probably not retractable landing gears, most likely the valve body was cut down. liquids that for Su 57 may also have taken the path of reducing the weight and volume of hydraulic equipment, but it’s so much to change,

[Grigory_45]

The Mi-35 was simply simplified and made cheaper, which is why it removed the mechanism for cleaning the chassis.
The hydraulic drive has a high power density, i.e. power per unit total weight of elements. This parameter is 3-5 times higher for hydraulic drives than for electric drives. The win in the mass will not work

[igor67]

Quote: Gregory_45

The Mi-35 was simply simplified and made cheaper, which is why it removed the mechanism for cleaning the chassis.
The hydraulic drive has a high power density, i.e. power per unit total weight of elements. This parameter is 3-5 times higher for hydraulic drives than for electric drives. The win in the mass will not work

simplified MI24, it went for export like Mi35, it’s always, from product 245 to 242, the chassis itself has become lighter, have you ever dismantled the chassis from 24k? just by a crane, I don’t say that I won a lot in wess

[Aag]

Why is it harmful? The list of STF (poisonous technical fluids) includes, so to say, conditionally. No more harmful than Ferri .. Here mortality from coolants (coolants) based on ethylene glycol died, or became disabled, the mass of the people. I will tell sedition, alcohol is harmful .

[40821]

On the contrary, AMG10 is considered almost holy water. But the modern liquid skidrol, nzh, 7-50s is really a carcinogen

[Piramidon]

Quote: Gregory_45

- Small dimensions and weight of hydraulic units

Actuators of electric and hydraulic systems are comparable in weight, but hydraulic pumps, pipelines and hydraulic mixtures weigh more than generators, wires and coulombs. And with the installation of electric networks, there is less trouble than with pipelines.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: Piramidon

Actuators of electric and hydraulic systems are comparable in weight, but hydraulic pumps, pipelines and hydraulic mixtures weigh more than generators, wires and coulombs.

in specific power, hydraulics are better than electromechanics by 3 or more times (i.e., at the same power, the drive will be about 3 times heavier) And the higher the power, the more the difference is visible.
Electro miracle how good in low power servos

[Nikolaevich I]

And there is a saying: "the best is the enemy of the good!" ... Of course ... if necessary, then it is necessary! Just not very addicted! And then, in anticipation of the "ideal" aircraft, you can upgrade for "a hundred years" ... and then say that now they do not fly ...!

[Trickster]

Gradually, the Su-57 turns into just a flying meat grinder, and to himself the king of the sky. If with hydraulics in the afterburner, speed 57 reaches 2 max, then what comes out of it is just scary to think that all of NATO’s aviation will officially become flying targets. What can not but rejoice.

[olhon]

"Russian videoconferencing in the near future may receive."
"The first flight of the modernized Su-57 can take place."
I didn’t read further.

[Looking for]

Why didn't you read it further? You need to know what to be "proud of".

[bars1]

The main thing is to fulfill the contract from 2019. by 76 units until 2027 .. And in 2028 to start production of the Su-57M with the simultaneous modernization of the previously released Su-57, using the technology "emki" as much as possible (as far as possible)

[Looking for]

on this "plane" you can "cut coupons" all your life. get awards. titles and other. not by handing over ANY AIRCRAFT IN OPERATION !!!

[Maks1995]

Cool! He has not yet entered the Air Force, but is already modernizing.
And rightly so. Vaughn Armat is already 3rd generation rides in parades.

[Aag]

Once again, a question for connoisseurs (approximate systems technicians, specialized electricians, electronic warfare-sheep, specialists in "Peresvet", I don't know who else is at their peak): how resistant is an electrician to the effects of microwave radiation, other, similar byaks?
Not later than a week ago, we discussed the problem of diesels (what is for the Navy, what is the SV, in particular, tanks, although, in my opinion, the topic is much broader). So, there, it seems, they came to the conclusion that Comman Rail is good (though We can't ourselves), but it's not so difficult to "extinguish" it ...
Wouldn’t such crap get here? About shielding wires, probably not worth it, it is hardly feasible without real land ...

[Maks1995]

Alas, not special.
But in the comments a lot of interesting pops up, look on this topic ....

[Blue fox]

The topic is not new. On the SB bomber, hydraulics were installed on part of the systems, and on the Pe-2 there was already an electrician.

[Banzai]

Come on. We will not have fifth-generation aircraft. As unnecessary. Mo will not shoot money there. This is the platform for the implementation of the next series of 6. And they are doing the right thing in experimenting.

[senima56]

Hydraulics has always been a "weak point" back in the USSR! Obviously, they did not cope with the "childhood illnesses" in this area.

[agond]

Or maybe there will be not a classic drive from an electric motor with a reducer, but let's say a piezoelectric drive, by type, of a pusher in diesel nozzles.

[igor67]

Quote: senima56

Hydraulics has always been a "weak point" back in the USSR! Obviously, they did not cope with the "childhood illnesses" in this area.

Hydraulics flowed from all the holes, somehow they came to us to repair Mi 24, Libya, some of the hoses were replaced by the French, immediately the obvious difference, plus most likely the lack of oil seals and O-rings, on each rubber edition there were multi-colored markings indicating the date of manufacture, they often put overdue due to lack of need, there was a case of oil leak on AN22, loss of 20 liters, while a car flew from Tashkent to Kiev, the problem was the simplest, due to the lack of proper support for the installation, it was established from which, as a result paranit turned into a kind of snot, and the result is a loss of oil in flight

[Aag]

"Hydraulics has always been a" weak point "back in the USSR!"
If it’s not difficult, argue, please. There were a lot of difficult places in the Union. But they did everything differently ... Unfortunately, now the situation is far from better ...

[Dzafdet]

How does replacing a hydraulic actuator affect the EPR of an airplane?

[Ax Matt]

Maybe they want to throw a ceiling higher, so they get rid of hydraulics? With the new engine, and on electromechanics, you can jump out into outer space. And this is the most effective maneuver to increase range and work on satellites. In any case, this is a progressive solution. You can compare with what they accepted, having refused, for example, traction cables. The speed of the electromechanics is also better, no temporary losses for pumping pressure into the preparedness chambers.

[iouris]

The idea is interesting, only she somehow suddenly visited a person making a responsible decision (DM). This is a challenge for the new generation.

[Ronald Reagan]

All this is yesterday.
Electrostatic drives
(when the material changes shape when the electric parameter changes)
- this is interesting.

[iouris]

Quote: Ronald Reagan

Electrostatic drives (when the material changes shape when changing the electro parameter) - this is interesting.

The goal is clear, but from a patent to an implementation, the path is twisty.

[Yuriy Malyshko]

How is it in our opinion - to call modernization the refinement of a product that has not yet been completed, in fact!

[kin]

Quote: Gregory_45

Quote: vargo

I think the main point is still weight

Do you think that electromechanics drive less hydraulics? Electromechanics should be understood as the entire circuit - from the controller to the actuator, and signal cables and power wires as thick as hydraulic tubes for transmitting current in a hundred and a half amperes, gearbox (or other device for transmitting torque from the motor shaft). Imagine what force develop a drive to move ailerons or rudders? Yes, even at high speed?

Quote: vargo

Nevertheless, the electric drive is easier to maintain, and it has a longer life without service

I doubt it. Especially for drives that operate in reverse mode (and the airplane has most of them) Now, if there were no moving parts in the drive, then it would be a different matter ...

I myself am an electrician, and I will ardently defend "electricity" as "mine", but only where the use is justified. In power circuits, where great efforts are required, with a good reaction time, I will give preference to hydraulics (controlled by electronics, of course)

Why hundreds of amperes? What is metal being boiled there? On the railroad, electric drives operate on turnouts and push iron wits, which can not be compared with the ailerons in terms of mass and the force applied to them. And are driven by only 0,9 mm conductors. Much depends on the type of electric motors and gearboxes. Controllers And what is the mass there? Hydraulic systems are also very heavy and voluminous and are more susceptible to temperature influences than electromechanical ones.

[Grigory_45]

Quote: kin

Why hundreds of amperes?

in this case, alas, I have to state the fact that you do not understand how the electric drive works.
the current consumption directly depends on the output power and supply voltage. Useful work - from the moment of strength. The moment cannot be less than that which is necessary. It directly depends on the speed (if we talk about a standard electric motor) - the lower it is, the higher the moment (you can observe this dependence even on a regular car - to overcome difficult road conditions, they switch to a lower gear, reducing speed, but increasing torque) Or a second example - did you see the electric door? The door leaf itself moves very slowly, although the engine runs at high speeds - 1500 rpm)

Of course, you can take a small high-speed engine, with low consumption - but also with low torque. Then you will have to install a gearbox with a large gear ratio to increase the output torque (the higher the speed, the lower the speed at the same power, and the power, minus the efficiency - the same) Accordingly, the drive will be able to budge what it should, but the speed movement of the working body will fall markedly. To increase the reaction rate, it is necessary to reduce the gear ratio of the gearbox (ideally, it should not exist at all), and this is an uniquely powerful motor with a large current strength.
And the reaction speed for a combat aircraft is very important. What kind of air combat can be discussed if the aileron or rudder shift lasts for tens of seconds, minutes? This still did not go for civilian aircraft, but was completely unacceptable for military vehicles.

Low reaction rate is one of the critical drawbacks of an electromechanical drive

[kin]

All this is good that you gave an example from a lecture material. But if you also gave specific examples arising from this. For example, the speed of the rudders, the types of electric motors used to control, at least some characteristics of the aircraft's electrical system. Then you could have the proud title of an electrician with experience and blame others for something.

[Dzafdet]

It is noteworthy that such a problem was known even during the Vietnam War. For this reason, the developers of the Su-25 attack aircraft back in the 1970s abandoned hydraulic amplifiers. But combat experience has shown that without hydraulics, pilots sometimes do not have enough physical strength to perform complex maneuvers, as well as control an attack aircraft with a large take-off mass. Therefore, already in the 1980s, hydraulic boosters were added to the Rook design.

Unlike traditional hydraulics, electric drives are much safer. The planes are controlled by small electric motors, going to which the power circuit can be duplicated many times. Therefore, if they are damaged, there is always a spare channel. Currently, all modern passenger airplanes are equipped with electric drives - Boeing-787, Airbus A-350, Russian MS-21

But why previously in military aviation did without electric control of the planes? The problem is speed. To perform a complex maneuver on fighters, it is necessary to shift ailerons, stabilizers, rudders in a split second. Until recently, electric motors did not have such capabilities, they needed seconds and even minutes. Which is acceptable for a leisurely airliner, but clearly not suitable for over-maneuverable aerial combat.

But in 2019, it became known that the company APKB (part of the Socium group of companies) was able to develop electric drives with specified characteristics. In the same year, new items were tested. With the new systems, the fifth-generation Russian fighter should complete its first flight as early as 2022.

https://vpk-news.ru/articles/56702

[40821]

The Boeing-787, Airbus A-350, and MC-21 all have hydraulic systems. The pressure on the Boeing-787 and Airbus A-350 is about 340 kg / cm2. On the 787, the electric drive is not used on ailerons and rudders, there are hydraulics. Brakes, stabilizer, mechanization, electric spoilers.

[su25]

Quote: Dzafdet

Unlike traditional hydraulics, electric drives are much safer

Why? It is unlikely that onboard power will allow the use of gearless electric drives. Accordingly, in case of failure of the electric motor or its power supply system, the drive jams, and even redundancy will not help here. At the same time, the leakage of oil from the main hydraulic circuit does not interfere with the backup.

[Freedim]

Hydraulics have a very significant plus - it's resistance to EMP. All electromechanics are highly susceptible to damage both by means of electronic warfare and the effect of EMP when a nuclear charge is detonated. Of course, given the tendency of not using nuclear weapons in any conflicts, "steampunk" technologies are doomed to extinction. But in case of "big badabum", it's better not to forget about hydraulics

[40821]

To open the valve, the spool needs an electrical signal. And the signal emits an emf.

[su25]

Not necessary. It is possible with pneumatics, and "by the string";)

[kutuz]

"They plan to abandon the modernized Su-57" - maybe it is worth abandoning the Su57, in principle, for more than 20 years in all "the near future they can get it" - where is it?

[Eug]

So it seems that the electrohydraulic control in all three channels was still on the first Su-35, I had an internal section, there were clearly visible electrohydraulic motors with hydraulic cylinders of 4 pcs. near each control. The signal goes electrical, and then the electric motor creates fluid pressure on the hydraulic cylinder rod, the stroke of which is directly connected with the control. The pressure in the hydraulic cylinders was indicated at 280. The conventional hydraulic system (when the control signal is transmitted by the hydraulics) does not have enough speed to control statically unstable objects, and the hydraulic drive was not completely abandoned due to the smoothness of the movement. It's very interesting what they mean in the article.

[su25]

Let me remind you that several of the first British Tornado fighters with EDSU were lost due to interference created by the control system as a result of the operation of powerful civilian broadcasting stations. It is not difficult to imagine how the EDSU "will feel" in conditions of powerful electromagnetic interference, purposefully created by the enemy.

[storm]

This is another confirmation of the obvious fact that the Su-57 is not ready for mass production.
At present, it is necessary to annually purchase Su-35 for the VKS for the combat regiment, bringing their number to 200 units, until mass production of the second stage engine, avionics, electromechanical system, and weapons is launched.

[Fast_mutant]

Quote: venik

Well, and secondly, the hydraulics are much less reliable compared to the electric motor: the hydraulic line or the gasket burst (and the pressure there is wow! The Su-27, for example, has a pressure of 270 atmospheres in the hydraulic system !!!)

I see no problem. No seriously! In cars, there is pressure in hydraulic systems and more. And they are operated for YEARS in different temperature conditions (from -30 to +50) without maintenance and normally. And gaskets are not used at all at such pressures. Well, except that occasionally copper rings. And they are not particularly "burst". So, by and large, only one problem remains - the working fluid of the system with a large temperature range. But chemistry will help here.