In Ukraine, completed the preliminary tests of the MLRS "Alder-M"

In Ukraine, preliminary tests of the Ukrainian Alder-M rocket continue. The next launches were carried out in Odessa region. This was reported by the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on its Facebook page.

According to the report, in preparation for state tests, the next flight tests of the promising domestic Alder-M rocket were held at a test site in the Odessa region. The tests were attended by representatives of the developer and specialists of the APU. It is noted that the target was hit by a "first shot."

Later, the NSDC secretary Aleksey Danilov on his Facebook page wrote that the state Luch design bureau completed preliminary tests of the Alder-M MLRS. According to him, the distance and radius of destruction of targets met all the tactical and technical tasks. The flight range of the rocket was more than 110 kilometers.

The date of the start of state tests of this rocket has not yet been announced.

The Ukrainian General Staff explained that Alder-M is a project to create high-precision 300 mm rocket-propelled munitions with a maximum range of over 100 kilometers. It was previously stated that "each missile in the launcher is aimed at a separate target and can be controlled in flight." According to the developers, the new MLRS surpasses the accuracy of the Tochka-U tactical complex.

Comments

[tarakan]

Compare Point with RZSO
I am a civilian, but I suppose that the RZSO has a niche of work on areas and what for her to get into the "window"?

[Sky strike fighter]

And how will we answer "the father of Ukraine's missile program"?

the troops receive "Tornado-G" and "Tornado-S", which are improved versions of "Grad" and "Tornado". They received new digital fire control systems coupled with GLONASS sensors, as well as more accurate and long-range missiles.
The newest Uragan-1M occupies a special place. As military expert Leonid Karjakin notes, this MLRS has incorporated the best developments in this direction. The launcher is two-caliber. Depending on the assigned tasks, it can use 220-mm and 300-mm ammunition stored in transport and launch containers, which greatly facilitates their reloading, operation and combat use.

The maximum range of rockets reaches 120 km. In the future, the appearance of even more long-range weapons is expected.

https://rg.ru/2020/04/23/dva-v-odnom-chem-unikalna-novejshaia-reaktivnaia-sistema-uragan-1m.html

[alone]

Quote: tarakan

what for her in the "window" to get?

Actually, in Israel there are 300 mm high-precision tactical missiles in disposable launch containers, which are installed in the MLRS .. There are 8 missiles in one container .. They are inferior in accuracy to the OTRK ..

[Grandfather]

again exploded at the start?

[engineer74]

Quote: Dead Day

again exploded at the start?

Really strange photo ..
Or did they have a target 50 meters from the launch pad?

[kjhg]

Quote: engineer74

Quote: Dead Day

again exploded at the start?

Really strange photo ..
Or did they have a target 50 meters from the launch pad?

Alder has a direct fire mode

[Mayak-SH-7]

hit the mark!

"Vilkha-M": By the first construction exactly to the target!

Submitted by General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Saturday, April 25 2020

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

hit the mark! [media = https: //www.facebook.com/GeneralStaff.ua/videos/222133905898141/]

Do you already have an army there, but an animation from Walt Disney?

[Mayak-SH-7]

Yes, stop where the Ukrainian Walt Disney is before the Russian Soyuzmultfilm, you have special effects much cooler and the graphics are pretty modern.

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

Yes, stop where the Ukrainian Walt Disney is before the Russian Soyuzmultfilm, you have special effects much cooler and the graphics are pretty modern.

Well, you see how. Instead of competing with other armies, the APU competes for some reason with old cartoons from the Soviet Union animated film. It’s not possible to claim a greater level of competency. I’m already silent about the competition with the Russian army. Where are the Ukrainian animators, headed by their father Turchinov.

[RUSS]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

Yes, stop where the Ukrainian Walt Disney is before the Russian Soyuzmultfilm, you have special effects much cooler and the graphics are pretty modern.

Wow)))))

[orionvitt]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

where to the Ukrainian Walt Disney before the Russian Soyuzmultfilm

Far away, not far away, but the Pentagon somehow constantly shudders from the next "Russian cartoons". And ukroarmiyu, only hares are afraid, and then because by nature shy.

[Warrior-80]

So I thought that the Alder is a complete crap explosion as from a small projectile, an explosion from a point they saw there a whole hill rises into the air

[RUSS]

Quote: Warrior-80

So I thought that the Alder is a complete crap explosion as from a small projectile, an explosion from a point they saw there a whole hill rises into the air

Of course, like all Ukrainian weapons, there is no need to wait for other comments here.

[Oquzyurd]

You probably mean the Lynx MLRS with a caliber from 122 mm to 300 mm, and even larger the LORA PTRK with a caliber of 610 mm, in containers. These systems in the Azerbaijan Army are also bought from Israel.

[alone]

Links and LORA are different systems ... LORA is a typical OTRK .. the rockets are in the TPK, 4 units are transported in one installation ..
But Likes is a MLRS ... simple launcher packs of different calibers are installed as you noticed .. from 122 to 300mm ... 300mm missiles can hit a target with an accuracy of 10m .., that is, being an ammunition of a MLRS, they correspond in accuracy to the OTRK

Quote: Oquzyurd

These systems are also in the Azerbaijan Army, purchased from Israel.

I know and saw the application several times during military exercises

[Oleg Olkha]

He obviously means 306 mm. EXTRA, the actual OTRK from 150 km. range.

[Zementbomber]

LORA typical OTRK .. rockets are in the TPK, 4 units are transported in one installation ..

"Classic" MLRS, the artillery unit of which is equipped with a package of disposable TPKs, have also long been offeard types.

[alexmach]

what for her in the "window" to get?

Indeed, why when you shoot to hit the target? Who just invented such stupidity?

[Lopatov]

Quote: tarakan

Compare Point with RZSO

Simply, firstly, they have been sawing an analogue of "Tochka" since 1994 ("Thunder"), and they cannot finish it in any way.
Secondly, the usual cargo cult. After all, if they do "like the Americans" (aspirated), then the Aggressor Country will immediately be obliged to surrender and give up Crimea along with the Rostov Region and Sakhalin ... And the Americans actually refused MLRS.

[Crane]

We are talking about weapons, you definitely need to weave politics. Sadly ...

[Lopatov]

Politics?
No politics. Pure ukrodur. Examples of which are the sea.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Crane

It's about weapons, you definitely need to drag politics

You are a strange person. Weapons (army) and politics, these are Siamese twin brothers and one without the other, it costs nothing.

[Albert1988]

Quote: orionvitt

You are a strange person. Weapons (army) and politics, these are Siamese twin brothers and one without the other, it costs nothing.

Namely - for an absolutely bad and stoned policy an absolutely bad and non-working weapon is made, and a bad and non-functioning army is armed with it ...

[Zementbomber]

"Thunder" - was positioned as a replacement for "Elbrus", and not "Tochka-U". R&D on it began not in 1994, but later. And their 100500 years have already been stopped - in favor of the "Sapsan".

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

And they stopped for 100500 years - in favor of the Sapsan.

Hooray!!!!!
And then what was dragged at the parade in 2018?

[Zementbomber]

Many things.

..in the parade demonstrated 40 units of heavy armored vehicles, more than 100 units of automotive vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 30 units of artillery systems and 30 missile systems. ... military aviation flew: 29 fighters, attack aircraft, transport aircraft and helicopters.
https://24tv.ua/ru/kakaja_tehnika_prisutstvovala_na_parade_ko_dnju_nezavisimosti_2018_n1020887

But neither "Sapsan" nor - even more so - "Thunder" - among this splendor still not It was. Simply because they never existed "in hardware."

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

Many things.

Quote: Zementbomber

But neither "Sapsan" nor - all the more - "Thunder" - was not among this splendor.

Of course it wasn’t.
Layouts dragged

[Zementbomber]

If you look at this photo, having previously taken some "opohmelin", you will easily notice: this is not even the MGM BR. This circus did not even match the level of the Soviet show with "GR-1".
PU for tactical ballistic missiles in MFAs of the Armed Forces of the Armed Forces - 12 pcs. "Tochka-U" in the 19th orb. From now on, dreamed and for [the coming] ages of the century. Amen.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

If you look at this photo, having previously taken some "opohmelin", you will easily notice: this is not even the MGM BR. This circus did not even match the level of the Soviet show with "GR-1".

However, dragged. and this is a reinforced concrete fact. And they sawed the money, both their own and the Saudis. What is also a reinforced concrete fact

[Zementbomber]

Well, you too - carry a lot of things at parades that are more than 146% fake. Not to mention the reports in the press about all sorts of "no analogoHoFF". AND?? Common disinformation activities.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, so are you - carry a lot of things in parades for more than 146% of the fake.

Ага.
And it's all cartoony.

[Zementbomber]

Why - "cartoonish"? Case 8K713 - Live and Win !!

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, you too - carry a lot of things at parades that are more than 146% fake. Not to mention the reports in the press about all sorts of "no analogoHoFF". AND?? Common disinformation activities.

"Fake" armata "for the parade" has already been built more than a real stronghold, together with the export

[Zementbomber]

Yes, and no. Read production-supply statistics. She is open.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Yes, no. Read production-supply statistics. She is open.

Oplot-M tanks manufactured about 50 units, armatures made 50-60 units ...

[Zementbomber]

As of the beginning of 2019 - 68 +7 BREM on its basis.
Tanks T-14 "Armata" at the beginning of this year, built 34, not counting the experienced.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

As of the beginning of 2019 - 68 +7 BREM on its basis.

Who told you this? Really there is one instance of Oplot-M, which is being dragged around the exhibitions, and another 49 sent to Thailand, where are 18 more? Or do you mean the usual T-84 Oplot, not Oplot-M? And these are two big differences, as you say in Odessa))))

[Zementbomber]

Directories and reports told me this.
And yes - I mean FFse, which responded to the chase of 478DUn, "Oplot", "Oplot-M" and "Oplot-T".

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Directories and reports told me this.
And yes - I mean FFse, which responded to the chase of 478DUn, "Oplot", "Oplot-M" and "Oplot-T".

So - "Oplot" and "Oplot-M" - these are two big differences, and the production of Oplot and Oplot-M are strongly separated in time ...

[Zementbomber]

So - "Oplot" and "Oplot-M" - these are two big differences

Someone deceived you. I can enumerate how "Oplot-" M differs from "Oplot" - it is unclassified infa.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Someone deceived you. I can enumerate how "Oplot-" M differs from "Oplot" - it is unclassified infa.

List)))) Please)))

[Zementbomber]

DZ "Knife-2", PKN-6, modified location of ZPU, 1KPI-M, 6TD-2 version E, forced (25% more generated power) APU, automated control system, steering wheel instead of levers at the mechanical drive, receivers and indicators NAVSTAR and GLONASS, TNS. And it's all.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

DZ "Knife-2", PKN-6, modified location of ZPU, 1KPI-M, 6TD-2 version E, forced (25% more generated power) APU, automated control system, steering wheel instead of levers at the mechanical drive, receivers and indicators NAVSTAR and GLONASS, TNS. And it's all.

You see what the trick is - "stronghold" is an unofficial chase of the "simple" T-84, but the "Oplot-M" or BM "OPLOT" is already deeply modernized ... There is a tower, and Suo, and Dz .. all other ...
This is the first ...
Second - according to, for example, the magazine The Military Balance, it was BM "Oplot" that produced 50 units - for Ty 49, for exhibitions - 1, and here's another 10-20 tanks and various krakozyabrs based on them - this refers to the T-84, which , poor fellows, not so long ago performed at pan-European tank competitions ...

[Zementbomber]

"Object 478DU9" - aka T-84U - was adopted by the Armed Forces of Ukraine exactly as BM "Oplot". Google PKMU No. 08.02.2000-237 dated 5/10/XNUMX. And they were built - in addition to the experienced - XNUMX pieces.
"Object 468DU9-1" aka "vol. 478DU10" aka "Oplot-M" - exists in a single copy.
49 Item (s) for Royal Thai it is "Oplot-T". + The Thais were supplied with 6 more units. (in the official report of the SSEC - it is erroneously indicated that there are only two) ARV "Athlete" (nee - BREM-84).
There are no "new towers and LMS" in comparison with the base "Oplot" - at -M / T - no. Except for the "new LMS" replacement of PNCC and introduction of IPC, of ​​course.

[Albert1988]

If you count the T-84U - then 5 of them are made, if you also count all the machines made on the armata platform - then there is typed under 70))))

[Zementbomber]

11 pieces actually. And "if we compare with all the machines made on the T-84 platform," then there are already 75 of them. dialTSTSO.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

11 pieces actually.

11 This is if both the T-84 and T84-U, then yes, 11, but these are slightly different cars)))

[Zementbomber]

No. 11 - this is exactly the T-84U (if you count with the "Yatagan" - then 12). Actually different (often - solidly different) cars under the general semi-advertising index "T-84 proper" - 7 more units were built.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

No. 11 - this is the T-84U

This does not change the essence ...

[Zementbomber]

Yes - the point is that the machines of the T-84 family have been manufactured in total, more than twice as many. than MBT type "Armata". CHTD

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Yes - the point is that the machines of the T-84 family have been manufactured in total, more than twice as many. than MBT type "Armata". CHTD

In total, about 40 units of the "armata" family were manufactured for the "parades" of tests + the production of the first series of 138 units ... How many of them are real? And this is a completely new car ...
T-84 production is dead ... Like all BTT production in Ukraine ...

[Zementbomber]

+ production of the first batch of 138 units ...

I must disappoint you - but 132 units is a general order for platform "Armata". those. on MBT T-14 + TBMP T-15 (which are in the majority in this order) + BREM T-16.

T-84 production is dead ... Like all BTT production in Ukraine ...

Of course "dead"! Well if not count the production of BM "Oplot-M" and "Oplot-T", armored personnel carriers of the BTR-3 and BTR-4 families, as well as combat and auxiliary armored vehicles based on the latter, BA "Kozak-2", ARV "Athlet" and "Athlete -T ", factory upgrades T-64, T-72, T-80, BMP-1 and BTR-70 ...

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Compare Point with RZSO wink
I am a civilian, but I suppose that the RZSO has a niche of work on areas and what for her to get into the "window"?

You can fire several volleys from the MLRS and not hit for example a fortified dugout, or dug in equipment, and one high-precision projectile can hit it directly in the bullseye.

High-precision ammunition increases the capabilities of the MLRS to the level of OTRK, yielding of course in range and power.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

You can give several volleys from MLRS and not hit for example a fortified dugout

When hammering nails with a drill, you can never hammer them ...
MLRS work on group areal objectives.

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

and one high-precision projectile can hit him right in the bullseye.

It is not "high precision". The probability of hitting a point target for them is clearly below 50%

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

When hammering nails with a drill, you can never hammer them ...
MLRS work on group areal objectives.

They wrote nonsense. According to your goal will be suitable for your weapons?

There will be a task, for example, to hit an ammunition depot 100 km from your position, what will you do? Tell the command that you have MLRS and this goal is not for you ?!

It is not "high precision".

A projectile adjusted by coordinates, what do you think is called?

Russian KAB-500/1500 in your opinion is also not high-precision ammunition ?! And which ones?

[Lopatov]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

According to your goal will be suitable for your weapons?

Uh ...
Do you understand what is written?

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

There will be a task, for example, to hit an ammunition depot 100 km from your position, what will you do?

If you have ever seen such warehouses, you will understand that the goal is uniquely areal group. For the MLRS division just right. Best of all cassette. And add anti-personnel mines in order to eliminate the consequences was "easier".

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

A projectile adjusted by coordinates, what do you think is called?

I do not know. For the first time I hear about such.

If you are talking about guided ammunition with ANNs corrected according to global positioning signals, then they are not highly accurate. Too low probability of hitting a point target
If they are not equipped with an additional semi-active infrared seeker, as the Americans are now going to do.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

If you had ever seen such warehouses, you realized that the goal is clearly an areal group.

And you imagine that the warehouse there is not for the whole army, but smaller, for some grouping of 100-200 people, or in general the headquarters or some other object is small and fortified or a bridge.

High-precision bombs appeared in the United States during the Vietnam War, and there they used them over the bridge - Hamjong, which until then had been constantly bombed with conventional bombs to no avail, and high-precision bombs destroyed the bridge the first time. This is the essence of precision munitions.

If you are talking about guided ammunition with ANNs corrected according to global positioning signals, then they are not highly accurate. Too low probability of hitting a point target

Well, what are they called about yours? KR "Caliber" is also not a high-precision missile in your opinion, are they guided along the ground using GLONASS signals? )))

High-precision munitions are all munitions that have a target designation system, and not just fly by inertia. And laser-guided munitions and homing by global positioning signals are all highly accurate weapons.

[alexmach]

When hammering nails with a drill, you can never hammer them ...
MLRS work on group areal objectives.

Is it because otherwise uncontrolled rocket works and can not.

It is not "high precision". The probability of hitting a point target for them is clearly below 50%

And how is this actually known?

[Lopatov]

Quote: alexmach

Is it because otherwise uncontrolled rocket works and can not.

Smerch does not and has never had unguided rockets.
There, the missiles initially have an inertial system that makes corrections on the active part of the trajectory. And also introducing an amendment during the separation of the warhead.
This is all done to reduce dispersion.

Quote: alexmach

And how is this actually known?

Because I do not think that the accuracy of Ukrainian missiles can be higher than that of the Americans.

[Zementbomber]

I do not think that the accuracy of Ukrainian missiles can be higher than that of the Americans.

You know the materiel poorly. UkrNUR ZZ is based on Soviet technical solutions. And they are even cooler than the current Amer in this area. And much cooler.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

are Soviet technical solutions.

Dear, I’m not from Ukraine, I should not try to hang such noodles.
The USSR did not work with the ZhPS.

[Zementbomber]

Can't help it. In addition to advice, study the materiel again, of course. In terms of acquaintance with the "red ZhPS" aka GLONASS in a fun particular.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

I can’t help you.

Of course you can’t.
Because under the USSR, GOS radar was used to increase the accuracy of missiles with ANNs.

[Zementbomber]

And also - "satellite correction". Once again - learn materiel!

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

And also - "satellite correction".

Ага.
Only not "correction" but navigation, and not missiles, but surveyors.
And the rest is right

[Zementbomber]

And also - BR, KR, and KAB.
And the term "satellite correction" is really common - up to and including offdoks.

[Ded_Mazay]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

[
You can fire several volleys from the MLRS and not hit for example a fortified dugout, or dug in equipment, and one high-precision projectile can hit it directly in the bullseye.

Doesn’t it seem to you that spending a little bit of ammunition at the cost of a luxury cruiser is a little nonsense?
PS comrade Lopatov correctly writes to you, MLRS is a massive work on areas with the imposition of blast waves.

[svp67]

Quote: tarakan

I am a civilian, but I suppose that the RZSO has a niche of work on areas and what for her to get into the "window"?

The technology and the accumulated experience make it possible to turn MLRS into a WTO, especially since the Smerch missiles, which the Uragan have, are in cluster loading. But you shouldn't rely on them much anyway, since it is easier to shoot them down than the same "Point"

[garri-lin]

And can I clarify why knocking down is easier than a point?

[svp67]

Quote: garri-lin

And can I clarify why knocking down is easier than a point?

Flight path and speed in the final section ....

[garri-lin]

So both missiles follow a ballistic trajectory. The approach to the target should be almost the same. And the speed is understandable. Thanks for the clarification.

[svp67]

Quote: garri-lin

So both rockets go along a ballistic trajectory

At "Tochka" it is cooler

[garri-lin]

Got it. Thank.

[mvg]

you are not civil

you are a little little idiot, ... tell you what? or guess by reading a murzilka

[Zementbomber]

I suppose that the RZSO has a niche of work on areas and why should she get into the "window"?

In order to effectively defeat groups of relatively dispersed small targets.

[Cyril G ...]

That's cool. Better Points !!! The point is already 45 years in service. The point is already being withdrawn from service and is being used for its intended purpose (disposed of, so to speak) in the same Syria

[Avior]

Alder-guided missiles
Now these are spread
See Polonaise in Belarus for an example
Work point

[Lopatov]

Quote: Avior

Work point

With a KVO from 30 to 50 meters? Point?
Well, except for the Ukrainians.
With their rich work practices on civilian households

And Belarusians are going to use them as MLRS

[Amateur]

According to the developers, the new MLRS is superior in accuracy to the Tochka-U tactical complex.

Well, you say that you can 5 times

(Doctor's advice)

[Prahlad]

Whatever anyone says, but this is a definite success. The thing is quite serious and this must be taken into account.

[Non liberoid Russian]

this thing will be serious when it gets on the stream, but for now in the box it’s the usual show off

[hagen]

Quote: Not Liberoid Russian

this thing will be serious when it gets on the stream,

And besides the flow, it is necessary to create a comfortable political situation when it can be successfully applied. And today, only not very smart Bandera shortcomings can dream and speak aloud about the shooting of "Alder" at an oil refinery in Rostov, but those who understand that they will not have to actually shoot.

[tarakan]

Totally agree with you

[orionvitt]

Quote: Prahlad

Whatever anyone says, but it is a definite success

The Soviet backlog is not endless, someday it will end. What will they shoot later?

[Mentat]

Ukraine is not able to create a modern (or even a previous generation) OTRK, therefore GPS is glued to the MLRS missile and it is announced that this division is equal to OTRK.

[Zementbomber]

Modern (or even past generation) OTRK Ukraine is not able to create

In a state of fact. Like the BDSD. Pure issue of expediency.

[Gennady Fomkin]

Quote: Not a liberoid Russian

this thing will be serious when it gets on the stream, but for now in the box it’s the usual show off

There will be enough resources for such "show-offs" So the pants do not lose for long.

[Sky strike fighter]

They are fine without pants, the main thing is not to lose the embroidered shirt. That's the trouble then.

[rocket757]

Improving hitting accuracy for high-power and high-range MLRS, a promising option. But to compare with "Point U" is bad manners. It is worth comparing with a product of the same type, for example, "Tornado G", and not with a product that is removed from service and replaced with new systems.

[Zementbomber]

Spring, Crimea, Kuban, Russia, it is eternal

I will surprise you - but only the Great Rome is eternal. And even that - only according to the Anthem of Soviet student historians.

[Vladimir61]

Quote: Zementbomber

I will surprise you - but only the Great Rome is eternal

You are not a doppler? If you do not agree, then surprise your history teacher ... There are dozens of cities in the world, if not hundreds, that have been standing since the foundation, and which are several thousand years old. Those that have sunk into oblivion are well known to everyone - Troy, Memphis, Chichen Itza, etc.

[Zementbomber]

If you still understood the difference between "still stand" and "eternal"...

[Zementbomber]

According to "that same" buttherto-supplying song - "by Xian to Don ".

[Guards turn]

Expert: Ukrainians will not be able to hit Olkhoi on Russian strategic targets. Konstantin Sivkov, Doctor of Military Sciences, Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Missile and Artillery Sciences, commented on apocalyptic statements.

- Konstantin Valentinovich, what a formidable “Alder“ is such ”appeared at the gate?

- This is a modernized Soviet system “Tornado”. Conventional rocket system. Well, a little more power. Accordingly, her range is larger. And more precisely. When neighbors talk about a "deterrent" - this is bullshit. You can make a great example, but if it is not in the troops, or if it is, but a little, then they will not be able to qualitatively change the balance of forces. - In Kiev, they said that the launch range of the modernized complexes is up to 130 kilometers ...

- “Tornado” first had a range of 70, then 90 kilometers. We have made a modernized "Tornado" - it is called a "Tornado", and its range is 120-130 km. Suppose Ukrainians have achieved the same result. But what are the warheads of their missiles - cluster, not cluster? What is the real accuracy of hitting targets? And I emphasize: complexes of this kind are not a serious factor in small quantities. But can the Kamensk-Shakhtinsky "Alder" mentioned by Shiman get it?

- If we take the closest point of the territory of Ukraine controlled by Kiev, there will probably be 110-120 km in a straight line. Theoretically - can, practically - big doubts.

- Does the stop of the Pavlograd chemical plant, to which Kiev did not give money, really “kill” the Ukrainian missile industry?

- In Soviet times, it was a serious plant that worked for the entire Union. Yes, the very Yuzhmash who produced heavy ballistic missiles, known as Satan, will not be able to produce any missiles without Pavlograd production - so he seems to have stopped production.

In general, the Alder is an ordinary heavy multiple launch rocket system. She does not have the same range and ammunition in order to seriously influence the situation.

SOURCE KP.RU

[Zementbomber]

the same Yuzhmash, which produced heavy ballistic missiles, known as "Satan", will not be able to produce any missiles without Pavlograd production

Fuck, what an expert! That UMZ produced exclusively liquid rockets went entirely past its clear mind ...

[Well done]

The very presence of such a weapon from potential opponents should strain our staff officers. If the "helm" of Alder will be reckless-commanders-Nazis ... Let the local "generals" hinder me, let them lead the performance characteristics of anti-missiles, but one should not underestimate the insanity of the Okrug leadership. Remember the adage about the gun on the wall.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Welldone

If Alder's "helm" will have reckless-commanders-Nazis ...

Then, in the place of Alder and at the same time reckless natsts, smoking craters will appear ... And at the same time, perhaps, in the place of factories, this same alder producing ...

[Well done]

You didn't get it. Each weapon brings death, destruction. Even what is "intercepted" carries fires, etc. at least. You are a militarist. There will be a response, but judge for yourself - what for if diplomats can prevent it? , (be sure to bang - the whole world in dust ..))) We are sofa experts, not for us to judge.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Welldone

You didn’t get it.

I got it very well ...

Quote: Welldone

You are a militarist.

Oga, as well as a Machiavellianist, Stalinist and Bonapartist)))) And I also work for the FSB, the CIA and the Mossad

Quote: Welldone

The answer will be, but judge for yourself - what for, if it can be prevented by diplomats?

It’s you, my friend, who didn’t get it - with what diplomats? Well, if your presentation of a note like - "If at least one of your firecrackers fires towards the Russian border, we will make a lunar landscape at the location of your fireworks installations, the plant that produces them, and we will cremate everyone remotely. Who made such a decision."
this is "diplomacy", then yes, you can))))

[Well done]

Sofa eloquent polkan))) Horseradish world is better than ... Well, you understand.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Welldone

Sofa eloquent polkan)))

I, dear, I will not characterize you in return, because it will be ... not ethical and I advise you to familiarize yourself with the rules of decency.

Quote: Welldone

Horseradish world is better than ... Well, you understand.

I remember one famous politician once said:
"If a country, choosing between war and shame, chooses shame, it receives both war and shame"

Modern Nazi Ukraine must be crushed as hard as possible, both politically and economically, so that it sits like a mouse under a broom and clearly knows its place, because otherwise these settled-headed heads will do worse than they have already done ...

[Zementbomber]

Modern Nazi Ukraine must be crushed as hard as possible, both politically and economically, so that it sits like a mouse under a broom and clearly knows its place

Well - actually - the political line of the US leadership and elites in relation to Russia - you have formulated here quite clearly.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well - actually - the political line of the US leadership and elites in relation to Russia - you have formulated here quite clearly.

Russia and the United States are in the same weight as China is with the United Europe, but modern Ukraine is a mongrel. who imagines herself God knows that ...

[Zementbomber]

In the days of my gay pimp youth - it was called "small with a heavy tire." My Poland in 1939 was completely crushed and torn apart in a little more than a month. As a result, it was among the Winner Powers. So "weight" is not always really an indicator.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

In the days of my gay pimp youth - it was called "small with a heavy tire"

I am sorry for you ...

Quote: Zementbomber

My Poland in 1939 was completely crushed and scattered a little more than in a month.

That's right - because with her behavior she got not only her strategic opponents, but also her "allies" ... On the job, as they say ...

Quote: Zementbomber

As a result, she was among the victorious Powers.

And then the correction - it was already another Poland, socialist, and and Poland - sat in Britain, where in the 39th and washed off ...

Quote: Zementbomber

So "weight" is not always really an indicator.

Weight, alas, the indicator always, they wanted - Poland was torn apart, they wanted - they were added to the number of winning countries))) They wanted - the borders were redrawn, so now Germany has Poland with a tooth, cut for a huge piece to Poland ...

[Zementbomber]

And then the amendment - it was already another Poland, socialist, and that Poland - was sitting in Britain, where at 39 it was washed away ...

"People's" - Poland temporarily became only in 1948. In 1945, she was quite bourgeois.

Alas, the indicator always wanted weight - they wanted to tear Poland up, they wanted to - they included in the number of winning countries

And back to step 1. The "weight" of the tire "of the impudent small" outweighed the "weight" of the heavyweight, who had forgotten on him.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"People's" - Poland temporarily became only in 1948. In 1945, she was quite bourgeois.

Oh, fairy tales))) And what kind of "bourgeois" Poland is 45? And in the 50th? Or maybe “bourgeois” Poland also sat in the Warsaw Pact?

Quote: Zementbomber

And back to step 1. the "weight" of the "small" tire outweighed the "weight" of the one who forgot it.

If someone serious is going to bullshit, they will take away the tire and smear it, modern Poland should remember this very well, just like Ukraine. Because those with a heavier weight carry such tires that they’ll simply crush small ones with its bagel

[Zementbomber]

And what kind of "bourgeois" Poland is this at 45?

146% natural. Mostly private ownership of the means of production, a coalition with the participation of bourgeois parties in power.

If someone serious is going to bullshit, they will take away the tire and smear it, modern Poland should remember this very well, just like Ukraine. Because those with a heavier weight carry such tires that they’ll simply crush small ones with its bagel

Only if the tire of the small one does not "outweigh the weight" of the "serious" of this forgetful. And this happens in life. And it's not that rare.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

146% natural. Mostly private ownership of the means of production, a coalition with the participation of bourgeois parties in power.

Oh, and then somehow imperceptibly all this "bourgeois" was retrained into Soviet, apparently from the weight of the "tire"?

Quote: Zementbomber

Only if the tire of the small one does not "outweigh the weight" of the "serious" of this forgetful. And this happens in life. And it's not that rare.

Maybe it happens, but what does this have to do with Poland, which everyone turned up like, and Ukraine, which drove itself into whom?

[Zementbomber]

Oh, and then somehow imperceptibly all this "bourgeois" was retrained into Soviet, apparently from the weight of the "tire"?

Those. - that Poland in 1945 — was quite bourgeois — no doubt already — merged? OK, victory on the battle account.

Maybe it happens, but what does this have to do with Poland, which everyone turned up like, and Ukraine, which drove itself into whom?

Direct. And Poland in 1989 and subsequent, and Ukraine in 1991 and subsequent - "made" both the Union and Russia. Their tires were heavier. Stupid. Here's a bitch.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Those. - that Poland in 1945 — was quite bourgeois — no doubt already — merged?

Oh well, that is, the USSR during the NEP is also a bourgeois country))) And the bourgeois one is good - someone said how it blew off with the wind, apparently everything from the size of a tire that rolled onto the proud bourgeoisie and ... crushed ...

Quote: Zementbomber

OK, victory on the battle account.

I don’t play chess with pigeons, so what's the win?

Quote: Zementbomber

Direct. smile: And Poland in 1989 and subsequent, and Ukraine in 1991 and subsequent - and the Union "made". and Russia. Their tires were heavier. Stupid. Here's a bitch.

I-palkal-and-wallow-patstalom-adyn-adyn-adyn
Remember once and for all - when the USSR was in force - no half-caps of dwarfs could make it - Czechoslovakia tried - they crushed ... literally ..
And in 1991, just like in 1989, the USSR was able to "do" only one group of people, who had all possible "tires" in their hands - it was called the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ... After that, both Poland and Ukraine were able to the principle of dropping the collar first and generally existing somehow apart from the second. If there weren't for such tires in the Kremlin, they would have been sitting still and about ...

[Zementbomber]

that is, the Soviet Union during the NEP - is also a bourgeois country)))

Incorrect analogy.
The NEP RSFSR / Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics were capitalist, but not bourgeois. Since the bourgeoisie did not have there in 1921-1929. no political power.

Remember once and for all - when the USSR was in force - no half-caps of dwarfs could make it - Czechoslovakia tried - they crushed ... literally ..

The question is exclusively for the Czechs and Slovaks. They could well wash. The second tank park in Europe at that time, after all. Well, yes - the Afghan mujahideen are greeting the "former" in power.

And in 1991, just like in 1989, the USSR was able to "do" only one group of people, who had all possible "tires" in their hands - it was called the Communist Party of the Soviet Union ... After that, both Poland and Ukraine were able to the principle of dropping the collar first and generally existing somehow apart from the second. If there weren't for such tires in the Kremlin, they would have been sitting still and about ...

If the Communist Party of the Soviet Union decided to continue doing nothing, and not "accelerate-reorganize" - the USSR would have lived longer. But by the present time it would not exist either. With all that it implies ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Incorrect analogy.
The NEP RSFSR / Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics were capitalist, but not bourgeois. Since the bourgeoisie did not have there in 1921-1929. no political power.

And the difference if this so-called "bourgeoisie" instantly lost all political power at the behest from abroad?

Quote: Zementbomber

The question is exclusively for the Czechs and Slovaks. They could well wash. The second tank park in Europe at that time, after all. Well, yes - the Afghan mujahideen are greeting the "former" in power.

Namely - with the second tank fleet with the active resistance (!) Of the society - they couldn’t wash, and Ukraine and Poland - so generally zero without a stick - the first part is inalienable of the same USSR, and the second is under full control)))
And the mojahedin - this is not a state or a nation at all)))) Well, the goal was, for a minute, another - the Chechen fighters were washed so well - 250 Chechens were killed only at the final stage of the operation, and a million emigrated abroad))))

Quote: Zementbomber

If the Communist Party of the Soviet Union decided to continue doing nothing, and not "accelerate-reorganize" - the USSR would have lived longer. But by the present time it would not exist either. With all that it implies ...

The CPSU has rotted, and all these "perestroika - accelerations" were just flutters, if the CPSU continued to live and renew itself, like the Communist Party of China - the USSR, and by the current time it would be alive, but all sorts of "Krajina patriots" in the person of the yarosh-tyagnibok-farion are now marching would on May XNUMX with red ties and praise Lenin in the purest Russian language))))

[Zementbomber]

And the difference if this so-called "bourgeoisie" instantly lost all political power at the behest from abroad?

Where and when was this? "All political power "- the local bourgeoisie did not lose even in the" Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia "in 1939-1945.

Namely - with the second tank fleet with the active resistance (!) Of the society - they couldn’t wash, and Ukraine and Poland - so generally zero without a stick - the first part is inalienable of the same USSR, and the second is under full control)))
And the mojahedin - this is not a state or a nation at all)))) Well, the goal was, for a minute, another - the Chechen fighters were washed so well - 250 Chechens were killed only at the final stage of the operation, and a million emigrated abroad))))

1. Not "could not", but "did not dare". CHNA stupidly did not receive the order to "fuck in the toilet". Which, of course, doesn't decorate Czechs and Slovaks in any way.
2. USSR - disappeared safely on December 26, 1991 - wake up! Well, "complete Soviet control over Poland in the era of the People's Republic of Poland" is a delivery statement.
3. Answer in essence: did you succeed in defeating the Second Soviet-Afghan War - the Soviet Army and the KGB troops?
4. "a million Chechens" - never existed in Chechnya in nature. Trim the sturgeon.

continue the CPSU to live and be renewed, as the Communist Party of China - the USSR and by now would be alive

And if grandmother had primary and secondary sexual characteristics of grandfather, she would be grandfather. And if Medina Sidonia had squadron battleships instead of galleons and hookors, he would have conquered England for Philip II. Etc.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Where and when was this? The local bourgeoisie did not lose "all political power" even in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in 1939-1945.

And what do they lose under the capitalist Germans? But in the Warsaw Pact Poland became a socialist ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Not "could not," but "did not dare." CHNA stupidly did not receive the order to "fuck in the toilet". Which, of course, doesn't decorate Czechs and Slovaks in any way.

Not decided in this case = could not

Quote: Zementbomber

USSR - disappeared safely December 26, 1991 - wake up!

Am I saying the opposite? Disappeared, and I clearly said why - then what. like a fish, rotted from the head, the "head" would not rot - and the body would still live)))

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, "complete Soviet control over Poland in the era of the People's Republic of Poland" is a delivery statement.

Namely, as with any country of the Warsaw Treaty))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Answer in essence: did you succeed in defeating the Second Soviet-Afghan War - the Soviet Army and the KGB troops?

KGB troops are very interesting units Probably an analogue of the "Buryat armored police" . And then - and the USSR fought with Afghanistan, as with the country? That is, Babrak Karmal was an enemy of the USSR? And the USSR did not support his power in the country against illegal armed groups?
And yes - the Soviet troops could not defeat the Pashtun partisans, which were actively supported by the United States and Pakistan, and the whole Arab world ... just like the Ukrainian Khyborg knights could not defeat the rebels of Donbass, supported by Russia
And yes - in the Afghan war, the Soviet Union could not finish pushtuns precisely because of internal factors ...

Quote: Zementbomber

"a million Chechens" have never existed in nature in Chechnya. Trim the sturgeon.

More than two million people lived in Chechnya, now about a million Chechens live outside Russia ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And if grandmother had primary and secondary sexual characteristics of grandfather, she would be grandfather.

Let's rephrase - if an athlete wouldn’t be able to smoke and drink heavily, he would have acquired lung cancer and cirrhosis, and would not have died sooner ...

[Zementbomber]

in the Warsaw Pact Poland became a socialist ...

ATS is the 1955 EMNIS. Let me remind you that the debate went around my remark that Poland remained bourgeois until 1948 Despite the fact that since 1944 it was "under the" Union of SSR ".

Not decided in this case = could not

Well, if you interpret it that way, then yes. But in 1968 the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic had an objective opportunity to slyly fuck up the "troops of friendly countries".

as with any Warsaw Pact country))))

This is just an amazing statement! The uprising in the Hungarian People's Republic of 1956 and Kadar's "goulash socialism" in the same place. Coming to power in the NDP comrade. Gomulki against the will of the USSR and its "special Polish path to socialism." Loud exit of Albania from the police station. "Special course" of Romania Ceausescu, which actually withdrew its army from the OVD OVD. Polish Crisis at the turn of the 1970s-1980s. "Complete Soviet Control," Oga.

The KGB troops are very interesting units laughing Probably an analogue of the "Buryat armored militia" laughing. And then - and the USSR fought with Afghanistan as a country? That is, Babrak Karmal was an enemy of the USSR? And the USSR did not support his power in the country against illegal armed groups?
And yes - in the Afghan war, the Soviet Union could not finish pushtuns precisely because of internal factors ...

KGB troops are the collective name of the military formations of the KGB of the USSR.
They included the Border Troops, the State Security Forces, the KGB obr osnaz, the KGB OTC ("Vympel"), units and subdivisions of the "A" Service (not to be confused with the "A" service of the PGU KGB), the Kremlin regiment, external security units of the KGB security service , Government communications units, USSR KGB communications units, USSR KGB rear services, USSR KGB military construction units.
And yes - the USSR really had an Afghan government at its service as a puppet. Even with 400 thousand troops and paramilitaries. An didn't help. Even when in the first six years of the war, no "internal factors" of the USSR Armed Forces interfered.

More than two million people lived in Chechnya, now about a million Chechens live outside Russia ...

Goskomstat of the USSR - I disagree with you! According to the 1989 census, the population of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic is 1275513 people. Of which Chechens-only a little more than half.

Let's rephrase - if an athlete wouldn’t be able to smoke and drink heavily, he would have acquired lung cancer and cirrhosis, and would not have died sooner ...

The difference is that the conditional athlete could freely neither drink nor smoke. And the CPSU did not have the opportunity "not to rot". She began to rot even under Stalin.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

ATS is 1955 EMNIS. Let me remind you that the dispute revolved around my remark that Poland remained bourgeois until 1948, despite the fact that since 1944 it was “under the Union of SSR”.

And then she changed her system for pointing from the USSR ... All you need to know about this)))

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, if you interpret it that way, then yes. But in 1968 the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic had an objective opportunity to slyly fuck up the "troops of friendly countries".

They also had an objective opportunity for the Germans to bite a bit at 38, but from something they could not even then ...
The pattern, however ...

Quote: Zementbomber

This is just an amazing statement! The uprising in the Hungarian People's Republic of 1956 and Kadar's "goulash socialism" in the same place. Coming to power in the NDP comrade. Gomulki against the will of the USSR and its "special Polish path to socialism." Loud exit of Albania from the police station. "Special course" of Romania Ceausescu, which actually withdrew its army from the OVD OVD. Polish Crisis at the turn of the 1970s-1980s. "Complete Soviet Control," Oga.

Oha, because when the USSR became very necessary, the Czechs were crushed ... If in other cases something happened "in spite of" - it means that they simply did not pay due attention to it ... Well, Jaruzelski is not worth mentioning here at all - that's all it was already starting to pour in then

Quote: Zementbomber

KGB troops are the collective name of the military formations of the KGB of the USSR.

Here are the KGB military formations - this is the usual wording ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And yes - the USSR really had in its service the puppet Afghan government. Even with 400th military and paramilitaries.

If you follow the pedagogy, then yes, the puppet, however, this regime arose before the advent of the USSR, it is as if the Syrian government is called puppet ...

Quote: Zementbomber

An did not help. Even when in the first six years of the war, no "internal factors" of the USSR Armed Forces interfered.

In the first 6 years, once everything went very successfully and did not bode well, but after the year 85 began ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Goskomstat of the USSR - I disagree with you! According to the 1989 census, the population of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic is 1275513 people. Of which Chechens-only a little more than half.

And how many Chechens and Ingush lived then outside of Chechnya? Today we have about two million representatives of the indigenous peoples of Chechnya (simplified) of which half live outside the borders of the Russian Federation ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The difference is that the conditional athlete could freely neither drink nor smoke. And the CPSU did not have the opportunity "not to rot". She began to rot even under Stalin.

We can say that even under Lenin, during underground activities, when it was not called that, and so on ... Rot appeared in the ruling elite of the SSS already under Brezhnev, under Khrushchev everything was still relatively normal. but when the "Soviet power" turned into an open gerontocracy ...

[Zementbomber]

We can say that even under Lenin, during underground activities, when it was not called that, and so on ... Rot appeared in the ruling elite of the SSS already under Brezhnev, under Khrushchev everything was still relatively normal. but when the "Soviet power" turned into an open gerontocracy ...

Pogugilte or hammer into Yandex "Smolensk abscess (or" Smolensk abscess "). This is still a deeply Stalinist Union. Well, bother looking at what you will get a search for" moral decay ".

And how many Chechens and Ingush lived then outside of Chechnya? Today we have about two million representatives of the indigenous peoples of Chechnya (simplified) of which half live outside the borders of the Russian Federation ...

First, the Vainakhs-Ingush are not the "indigenous people of Chechnya." In personal communication with them, they can even put a pen to the pen for such a wording - because Chechens are "loved" very much. Chechnya and Ingushetia have always been different ethnocultural communities. Even though they were crossed in Soviet times due to the stupidity of Moscow (although in general it was extremely strange for Stalin - he is a Caucasian himself) in one autonomous republic.
Secondly, as of 17.01.1985/865/205, 1 thousand Chechens and XNUMX thousand Ingush lived in the USSR. Even if we count the Terek Cossacks and Mountain Jews living in Chechen-Ingushetia, a separate ethno-social group ") - XNUMX million emigrated (even counting internal migration) as a result of the First and Second Chechen wars, even all representatives of the indigenous peoples, even Chechen-Ingushetia as a whole - well, they are not recruiting in any way. Admit already that you froze this figure without thinking.

If you follow the pedagogy, then yes, the puppet, however, this regime arose before the advent of the USSR, it is as if the Syrian government is called puppet ...

The government may not be puppet and become one in the process. Or maybe - to be puppet and cease to be in the same process. Let me remind you that the very first step of the USSR after the introduction of troops into the DRA was the overthrow of the legitimate government of Amin. Well and yes - now - The regime in the SAR is quite a puppet.

In the first 6 years, once everything went very successfully and did not bode well, but after the year 85 began ...

You know, during the year I prepared and published the cycle "In the Land of the Eternal War" from a two-digit number of parts in the A3 band each - and I had a completely different opinion. The failure of the OKSV operations in the DRA was marked back in the "Andropov" times.

Oha, because when the USSR became very necessary, the Czechs were crushed ... If in other cases something happened "in spite of" - it means that they simply did not pay due attention to it ...

Soviet Union - everything can always! Except when he can not do anything at all!

To her - in Soviet times, citizens of the USSR treated the real possibilities of their country pretty much more sensibly.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Smolensk abscess

One specific case and, incidentally, characteristic of any elite, is cleaned up by appropriate methods. The decay of the elite is, first of all, not the appearance of individual corrupt / marally descended elements, but a systemic phenomenon when the elite begins massive illegal activity, as is happening in all post-Soviet elites as direct descendants of the Soviet elite.

Quote: Zementbomber

First, the Vainakhs-Ingush are not the "indigenous people of Chechnya."

And when did I write about Vainakhs? Nohchi we have not?

Quote: Zementbomber

The 1 million emigrants (even counting internal migration) as a result of the First and Second Chechen Wars, even of all the representatives of the indigenous peoples, even of Chechen-Ingushetia as a whole, are by no means recruiting a Central Organ. Admit already that you froze this digital without thinking.

Nevertheless, at the moment we have about 1 million inhabitants of the Chechen Republic itself (given that the non-indigenous people emigrated from there at the beginning of the mess) and another one million ethnic Chechens scattered around the world. Of course, we can assume that they are so bred, but given the fact that 1/2 lives outside of Chechnya and even the Russian Federation ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The government may not be puppet and become one in the process.

Here - the Afghan government was subordinated to itself, putting its comrade Karmal, but, nevertheless, huge forces subordinated to this government and acted even more independently than the SAR troops in the same Syria

Quote: Zementbomber

You know, during the year I prepared and published the cycle "In the Land of the Eternal War" from a two-digit number of parts in the A3 band each - and I had a completely different opinion. The failure of the OKSV operations in the DRA was marked back in the "Andropov" times.

The period when in the USSR they began to exaggerately "come to power without regaining consciousness" has already marked the beginning of the end, because the leadership could no longer adequately assess the situation either in domestic policy or in foreign ...

Quote: Zementbomber

To her - in Soviet times, citizens of the USSR treated the real possibilities of their country pretty much more sensibly.

Thank God, my father and mother and senior colleagues are all alive and well, and about what assessments the citizens then gave to the capabilities of the USSR they can tell quite ...

[Zementbomber]

And when did I write about Vainakhs? Nohchi we have not?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вайнахи
The term "nokhchi" - in ethnography and ethnology not is used. Neither in the Soviet, nor in the current Russian, nor in the world.

Nevertheless, at the moment we have about 1 million inhabitants of the Chechen Republic itself (given that the non-indigenous people emigrated from there at the beginning of the mess) and another one million ethnic Chechens scattered around the world. Of course, we can assume that they are so bred, but given the fact that 1/2 lives outside of Chechnya and even the Russian Federation ...

Chechens are actively quite fruitful actually. Only from 1989 to 2010 - their number only directly in Chechnya itself increased by 500 thousand heads.
Well, and yes - even as of 2010 - the number of Chechens as a whole in Russia was 1.36 million people. In the rest of the world, just over 500 thousand Chechens now live.

Here - the Afghan government was subordinated to itself, putting its comrade Karmal, but, nevertheless, huge forces subordinated to this government and acted even more independently than the SAR troops in the same Syria

AND?? Does this cancel the fact that both the Karmal government and the ATS government are now puppet?

Thank God, my father and mother and senior colleagues are all alive and well, and about what assessments the citizens then gave to the capabilities of the USSR they can tell quite ...

Me too. And the unanimous opinion - that modern fables about the "omnipotence" of the USSR - strongly do not correspond to the actual past.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

The term "nokhchi" is not used in ethnography and ethnology. Neither in the Soviet, nor in today's Russian, nor in the world.

Then the question is - how is your statement that the Vainakhs are not Chechens?

Quote: Zementbomber

AND?? Does this cancel the fact that both the Karmal government and the ATS government are now puppet?

To the same extent puppet. like the modern governments of Poland and Ukraine))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Me too. And the unanimous opinion - that modern fables about the "omnipotence" of the USSR - strongly do not correspond to the actual past.

I did not talk about "omnipotence", I talked about his ability to cut short his mongrels at the right time, if it was necessary ...
And now, the pugs, who had just lost their leash, began to loudly laughed at an already dead elephant ...

[Zementbomber]

Then the question is - how is your statement that the Vainakhs are not Chechens?

Did I make such a "statement"?
The Vainakh superethnos includes three ethnic groups - Chechens, Ingush and Akins.

To the same extent puppet. like the modern governments of Poland and Ukraine))))

With this approach, you will have to recognize as puppets 95% of the governments of the world's states. Including the Government of the Russian Federation, of course. Moreover, it will not even be in the first hundred in terms of "the degree of freedom to act independently of the" external managers ".

I did not talk about "omnipotence", I talked about his ability to cut short his mongrels at the right time, if it was necessary ...
And now, the pugs, who had just lost their leash, began to loudly laughed at an already dead elephant ...

"We go in circles." Let me remind you once again - the USSR was not able to "cut short" even such a "mongrel" as Albania. And the list of such defeats - even before 1985 was double-digit.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Did I make such a "statement"?

They said that the Vainakhs are not Chechens ...

Quote: Zementbomber

With this approach -You will have to recognize puppet - 95% government of the world. Including the Government of the Russian Federation, of course.

To some extent, it (the government of RV) is very puppet, Long Zbig once said that he did not imagine a situation in which the government of the Russian Federation could deliver a nuclear strike against the United States when 500 billion dollars of the Russian elite are stored in American banks, and added that already doubts whether this is the Russian elite or is it already American ...

Quote: Zementbomber

"We go in circles." Let me remind you once again - the USSR was not able to "cut short" even such a "mongrel" as Albania. And the list of such defeats - even before 1985 was double-digit.

Everyone has defeats, just big and stronger ones can choose - when to hit them, and when to retreat, small and weak are deprived of such an opportunity. If the USSR did not cut the "Albanian mongrel", it means that such a scenario cannot be ruled out that he simply spit on it - the much more powerful Czechoslovakia was cut short?

[Zementbomber]

They said that the Vainakhs are not Chechens ...

No.

I used the term "Vainakh-Ingush". From this not it follows that Chechens are not Vainakhs. There are three ethnic groups in the pool of the Vainakh superethnos. Including Chechens.

Everyone has defeats, just big and stronger ones can choose - when to hit them, and when to retreat, small and weak are deprived of such an opportunity. If the USSR did not cut the "Albanian mongrel", it means that such a scenario cannot be ruled out that he simply spit on it - the much more powerful Czechoslovakia was cut short?

1) In reality - "small and weak" quite often also quite have such opportunities. On the other hand, even the biggest and strongest are far from always "able to choose." Textbook: On June 22, the USSR was completely deprived of a choice, for example. Although - there was a second army and a fourth economy of the then World;
2) And what could the USSR have done - if it had decided on the "Albanian" mongrel "tu"not spit "?? Except that - to inflict a nuclear missile strike ... The strength of the enemy's position is not always determined by its" arithmetically calculated purely military potential. "This is the alphabet. Czechoslovakia was in a much weaker position. Despite the second tank fleet in Europe.

[Zementbomber]

To some extent, it (the government of RV) is very puppet, Long Zbig once said that he did not imagine a situation in which the government of the Russian Federation could deliver a nuclear strike against the United States when 500 billion dollars of the Russian elite are stored in American banks, and added that already doubts whether this is the Russian elite or is it already American ...

Well - well, at least - you recognize 146% of the obvious ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well - well, at least - you recognize 146% of the obvious ...

It remains for you to admit that it is 100500% obvious - that Ukraine is a completely controlled colony against which not only "ahresors" but also "allies" are working

[Zementbomber]

"completely 146% controlled" - there are not even really colonies. But yes, yes - the Ukrainian people understood much earlier than you that when dealing with the inevitable, one should relax and try to get at least a fraction of pleasure. It won't hurt that much at least. You and your “we got up from our knees” have finished to the point that those who “own all the riches of the Earth and the Earth itself” just decided to close the “Russia project”. What is your gain - explain?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"completely 146% controlled" - there are not even really colonies.

Even as they are, and now - especially ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But yes, yes - the Ukrainian people understood you much earlier that when dealing with the inevitable, you need to relax and try to at least get a bit of pleasure.

"By preferring shame to war, you will get both shame and war ..." - roughly paraphrasing - all this is fully owned by the Ukrainian people, or rather, it is the Ukrainian people who have it - both from the inside and from the outside ...

Quote: Zementbomber

You and your “we rose from our knees” have played out to the point that those who “own all the riches of the Earth and the Earth itself” simply decided to close the “Russia project”.

Again reptilians and anunaki from Nibiru crap, I knew! Get involved! come down from heaven to the sinful earth! Get out of the matrix! WHO to close? What’s the good thing about the project? What kind of old man creeps out of your mouth?
Now I'm starting to understand why Ukraine ended up where it is now ...

[Zementbomber]

Even as they are, and now - especially ...

This statement only testifies to the widespread ignorance of its author in political history, political science and the theory and practice of public administration - and nothing more (excuse me).

"By preferring shame to war, you will get both shame and war ..." - roughly paraphrasing - all this is fully owned by the Ukrainian people, or rather, it is the Ukrainian people who have it - both from the inside and from the outside ...

Well, here you are - you have chosen (in words on the cr. Measure) "disgrace". As a result, it was decided to close the projects "Russia" and "Russian People". IMHO, quite a high price for pride. Excessive, I would even say.

Again reptilians and anunaki from Nibiru crap, I knew! Get involved! come down from heaven to the sinful earth! Get out of the matrix! WHO to close? What’s the good thing about the project? What kind of old man creeps out of your mouth?
Now I'm starting to understand why Ukraine ended up where it is now ...

OMG! What kind of "reptilians"? What Nibiru !? Just google: the owners and majority shareholders of the 200 largest companies in the world. That will be your answer - "WHO?".

[Zementbomber]

And then she changed her system for pointing from the USSR ... All you need to know about this)))

AND?? Where is that "great and mighty USSR2 with its" complete and final victory of socialism "now? And where is Poland?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

AND?? Where is that “great and mighty USSR2 with its“ complete and final victory of socialism ”now? And where is Poland?

The USSR rested in Bose for internal reasons, and Poland where it was - a mongrel at a dance, blindly following the instructions of its masters, even eating it to her harm)))

[Zementbomber]

A logical conclusion suggests itself that sometimes it is more useful for health - "to follow blindly" ... The end of the "Great Empires created by the Great Nations and their Great Leaders, throwing a Daring Challenge to the World and the Gods themselves" - has always been a little predictable. Predictable with a probability of 146%, I would say ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

A logical conclusion suggests itself that sometimes it is more useful for health - "to follow blindly" ...

Follow, in general it is necessary to end with attempts to reason with the "blindly following" and wait for them to follow until the last representative ...

[Zementbomber]

The desire to "reason" on the part of a representative of a country that has taken it into its head (even more in words) to again get involved in a struggle in which even the USSR suffered a crushing defeat - this is straight forward! ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

The desire to "reason" on the part of a representative of a country that has taken it into its head (even more in words) to again get involved in a struggle in which even the USSR suffered a crushing defeat - this is straight forward! ...

Who said that Russia got involved in the struggle waged by the USSR? The USSR waged a struggle between systems, building an alternative economic and social model! Modern Russia is completely inscribed in the capitalist world, by the way, to a much greater extent than modern Ukraine. And the "fight" of Russia is such a very strange struggle - here we fight, and here we handle and kiss, it's like after the imposition of sanctions, American exports to Russia have grown much in many respects)))) And during the sanctions, American oil companies through gaskets together with Russians were developing oil fields in Kamchatka ...

And most importantly, Russia is a player in this struggle, and Ukraine is a figure ... And the sad fate of the figures is much more likely than the players ...

[Zementbomber]

Who said that Russia got involved in the struggle waged by the USSR? The USSR fought the struggle of systems, building an alternative economic and social model!

At the same time, the geopolitical, geoeconomic and geostrategic (you can also introduce the term "geocultural-value") the rivalry between the "conditional" West "and" Eurasia "(in the historical-political-cultural, not geographical meaning of this term), which was clearly indicated at the latest during the time of Ivan IV the Great ("Terrible"). And which is much more important - as history has clearly shown - the confrontation of "Large Formation Projects" (in their Marxist understanding). Fundamental Discrepancy on the Agrarian Question: Who will bury Whom? And the result of the final round completely predictable - at least based on the results of previous rounds.

Modern Russia is fully integrated into the capitalist world, by the way, to a much greater extent than modern Ukraine.

Just a fantasy. You, apparently, confuse "significance" and "the degree of export-orientation" (moreover, understanding the latter too narrowly) with the "level of" fit-in-built ".

And most importantly, Russia is a player in this struggle, and Ukraine is a figure ... And the sad fate of the figures is much more likely than the players ...

In this game - "figures" and Russia and even the United States and China too. Simply - for objective reasons more "heavy" figures than we are. The players are the Groups of the Upper Level of the World Elites. Transnationally cosmopolitan (although not by 146% such).

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

At the same time, the geopolitical, geoeconomic and geostrategic (you can also introduce the term "geocultural-value") the rivalry between the "conditional" West "and" Eurasia "(in the historical-political-cultural, not geographical meaning of this term), which was clearly indicated at the latest during the time of Ivan IV the Great ("Terrible"). And which is much more important - as history has clearly shown - the confrontation of "Large Formation Projects" (in their Marxist understanding). Fundamental Discrepancy on the Agrarian Question: Who will bury Whom? And the result of the final round completely predictable - at least based on the results of previous rounds.

A very speculative concept, one might say like that of Gumilyov. But if we accept it, the first victim of this struggle is Ukraine, which is now being methodically "buried" on both sides - from the "west" - economically, from the "east" - by military methods. This time. Two - who told you, if, of course, this concept is correct, that Russia went directly to the confrontation itself? That opposition was not imposed on her? This time. Two - the past "rounds" were very contradictory - after the "mighty" Poland, which could only take advantage of the weakness of Grozny Russia, then buried under Katyukha, and the Russian Empire was then a full-fledged member of the friendly European imperial organized criminal group until the revolution ... revolution is the result of internal problems, not external ones. But the real confrontation was only in the Soviet period - since a different system positioned itself very different from the generally accepted one. And most importantly, she "forgave" the debts to creditors and did not let them access the resources, so there was a confrontation. And now Russia, under sanctions with the same Europe, is cooperating orders of magnitude more than the "integrated" Ukraine ...
So the "confrontation" is only on the part of the United States and dwarf mongrels such as Poland and sprats, and of the puppet Ukraine ... But this is how the Americans climbed to butt with China, which, by the way, did not allow themselves before, and what can be really bad for them will end, because they are also stirring up something with Europe ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Just a fantasy. You, apparently, confuse "significance" and "the degree of export-orientation" (moreover, understanding the latter too narrowly) with the "level of" fit-in-built ".

Of course, where is Russia to Ukraine! All so integrated into Europe!

Quote: Zementbomber

In this game - "figures" and Russia and even the United States and China too. Simply - for objective reasons more "heavy" figures than we are. The players are the Groups of the Upper Level of the World Elites. Transnational-cosmopolitan (although not 146% like that).

Oh yes, as well as reptilians and anunaki from the planet nibiru ...

[Zementbomber]

A very speculative concept, one might say like that of Gumilyov. But if we accept it, the first victim of this struggle is Ukraine, which is now being methodically "buried" on both sides - from the "West" - economically, from the "East" - by military methods.

Ukraine would be a victim if there was at least a chance for a compromise peace between the "West" and "Eurasia", and not only the prospect of unconditional surrender and disappearance from the political map of the World of Russia. In reality, Ukraine is doing exactly the same thing as my Poland in 1939 - due to troubles (even big, very big ones) at the initial stage - it takes a place in the camp of future triumphant winners.

who told you, unless of course this concept is true, that Russia directly went to confrontation like that? What opposition did not impose on her?

You have clearly indicated the conditions. on which you agree not to close your project. And even in the future to make a partner. Younger and incomplete - but a partner. You have refused. Yes, and demonstratively. OK, this is your a choice. AND yours responsibility for its consequences.

the real confrontation was only in the Soviet period

I don’t remember that the "Soviet period of Russian history" began in 1812 or earlier ...

"opposition" is only from the United States and dwarf mongrels such as Poland and sprats, and of the puppet Ukraine ...

Why, then, is the whole World against you? And not just "the United States with" their "mongrels"?

But so the Americans and China climbed to butt, which, incidentally, had not been allowed before, and what could really end badly for them, because they are also muddying with Europe ...

mainland China is now at a crossroads. the decision - what to do with the "project" China? - has not yet been made. And this decision depends almost exclusively on the behavior of China itself. And there it is perfectly understood. There are Truly Wise Leaders.

where there is Russia to Ukraine!

Watching - what.

Oh yes, as well as reptilians and anunaki from the planet nibiru ...

It’s just that the whole post-war development of Marxism, all its evolution and development in the era of multinational corporations and global financial capital — all this completely passed by you.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Ukraine would be a victim if there was at least a chance for a compromise peace between the "West" and "Eurasia", and not only the prospect of unconditional surrender and disappearance from the political map of the World of Russia.

Ohh, only Ukraine really has much more chance of disappearing from the political map of the world than Russia, with an order of at least two ...

Quote: Zementbomber

In reality - Ukraine is doing exactly the same thing as my Poland in 1939 - due to troubles (even big, very big) at the initial stage - it occupies a place in the camp of the upcoming triumphal winners.

Oha)))) At first, the hyena was imposed on Adolf Aloizych as friends, even signed a contract with him first! Only Aloizych from something of zeal did not appreciate and ate the hyena himself, sharing the scraps with Vissarionych. And after the defeat of Aloizych - yes, Poland somehow ended up in the ranks of the winners)))) Only then did the winners remember her all her pre-war efforts and formatted them to their standards in all holes, and when Poland passed into the yoke of other "winners" - her also formatted, only "with Vaseline" ...
Remember once and for all - countries such as Poland and Ukraine separate from Russia - cannot do anything and decide - the choice is made for them, and the fate of these countries is to be a sanitary cordon between the big players, only the question of whether this sanitary cordon belongs ...

Quote: Zementbomber

You have clearly indicated the conditions. on which you agree not to close your project. And even in the future to make a partner.

Well, and what?

Quote: Zementbomber

s - refused. Yes, and demonstratively. OK is your choice. And your responsibility for its consequences.

Or maybe everything is more complicated there than in the garden? Pu from something quite a long time clearly followed in the fairway, but then something went wrong ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I don’t remember that the "Soviet period of Russian history" began in 1812 or earlier ...

What happened before? Russia sits in a general European organized criminal group, while at the request of this very organized criminal group, it often kicks presumptuous outlaws who act "not according to concepts")))
At the same time, Bonya is just such a lawless person who turned out to be toothy and crushed everyone for himself, besides England’s main godfather, but he couldn’t, but broke off in Russia, so Russia quickly restored everything and locked Bonya ...
Even in the Crimean War, there was no total confrontation, since the same States were very friendly to the same Russia, and the coalition came upon us specifically because, if good luck, Russia could become very cool and sign up for chaos, as the Angles and Franks thought after Bonnie something ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Why, then, is the whole World against you? And not just "USA with" their "mongrels"?

You are funnier than I thought)))) what is the "whole world"? Against only the States and, perhaps, the Angles, Europa - cooperates and spits on the sanctions, especially since Europa herself had a bit of a fight with the States, an old bitch))))

Quote: Zementbomber

mainland China is now at a crossroads. the decision - what to do with the "project" China? - has not yet been made. And this decision depends almost exclusively on the behavior of China itself. And there it is perfectly understood. There are Truly Wise Leaders.

That is why the "truly wise leaders" politely showed the Amers the middle finger in response to the fist shown them, and on the quiet bought up a cloud of shares of Western companies operating in China, which fell in price against the backdrop of the pandemic ...
So do not measure such a monster like China with the standards of your Selyuk farm ...
Today, China’s policy is determined by China itself, for the good of China itself, and tomorrow, China will already determine the politics of the rest of the world ....

Quote: Zementbomber

Watching - what.

Yes, in everything - after all, Ukraine is a true superpower, condescendingly looking at the annoying neighbor, whom she still allows to exist in this world in her infinite mercy ... And most importantly, the Ukrainian superpower almost does not attract the attention of orderlies

Quote: Zementbomber

It’s just that the whole post-war development of Marxism, all its evolution and development in the era of multinational corporations and global financial capital — all this completely passed by you.

Maybe Marxism passed me by, only communication with several very smart and competent people, knowledgeable much more than yours in international affairs, didn’t pass by me, I trust them somehow more))))

[Zementbomber]

Remember once and for all - countries such as Poland and Ukraine separate from Russia - cannot do anything and decide - the choice is made for them, and the fate of these countries is to be a sanitary cordon between the big players, only the question of whether this sanitary cordon belongs ...

I have nothing to remember this blatant nonsense. "playing on two tables", playing on the contradictions of great powers (up to and including playing off these "great" ones) - the ABC of diplomacy and the entire policy of "small" powers since the time of the Tsar of Peas. And the degree of freedom thanks to such a game - "small" can get very, very large.

Well, and what?

economic and financial, external and internal political, military, informational. It takes a long time to list in detail. The main general principle-requirement was: you must, both in words and in deeds, give up all attempts to challenge the Western World and even try to simply demand the right to talk with it on an equal footing. By unconditionally accepting the role of junior follower partner. It didn't suit you. OK, get the arrival - all over the garlic.

Or maybe everything is more complicated there than in the garden? Pu from something quite a long time clearly followed in the fairway, but then something went wrong ...

Yes, it goes. Pu - imagines that he is "Great Pu" at the head of "Great" Russia, and not a hired servant of a large comprador-criminal capital in a semi-colony country.

What happened before? Russia sits in a general European organized criminal group, while at the request of this very organized criminal group, it often kicks presumptuous outlaws who act "not according to concepts")))
At the same time, Bonya is just such a lawless person who turned out to be toothy and crushed everyone for himself, besides England’s main godfather, but he couldn’t, but broke off in Russia, so Russia quickly restored everything and locked Bonya ...
Even in the Crimean War, there was no total confrontation, since the same States were very friendly to the same Russia, and the coalition came upon us specifically because, if good luck, Russia could become very cool and sign up for chaos, as the Angles and Franks thought after Bonnie something ...

In general, everything is correct. But this role of Russia was exhausted with the creation of NATO.

You are funnier than I thought)))) what is the "whole world"? Against only the States and, perhaps, the Angles, Europa - cooperates and spits on the sanctions, especially since Europa herself had a bit of a fight with the States, an old bitch))))

Your Parallel Reality - Really Delivers! Burn ISHO!

That is why the "truly wise leaders" politely showed the Amers the middle finger in response to the fist shown them, and on the quiet bought up a cloud of shares of Western companies operating in China, which fell in price against the backdrop of the pandemic ...
So do not measure such a monster like China with the standards of your Selyuk farm ...
Today, China’s policy is determined by China itself, for the good of China itself, and tomorrow, China will already determine the politics of the rest of the world ....

In Real Reality - in the leadership of the so-called. "PRC" believe that "PRC" will not be ready to even try to "determine the policy of the rest of the World" before the 2050s. And therefore, they tirelessly and openly emphasize at all levels, up to the highest: "China does not intend [yet] to violate the World Order." But yes - no doubt someday China will make such an attempt. And what will happen to him then - a very interesting question ...

Yes, in everything - after all, Ukraine is a true superpower, condescendingly looking at its annoying neighbor, whom it, in its infinite mercy, still allows to exist in this world ... And most importantly, the Ukrainian superpower almost does not attract the attention of orderlies wink

Primitive verbiage. Any more or less knowledgeable person can easily list at least a dozen positions where Ukraine unconditionally covers Russia - from positions on the world market of sunflower oil to the development of tank guns and launch vehicles.

Maybe Marxism passed me by, only communication with several very smart and competent people, knowledgeable much more than yours in international affairs, didn’t pass by me, I trust them somehow more))))

Well - this is only and exclusively your problem.

[major147]

Quote: Welldone

can be prevented by diplomats?

What diplomats !? What can you negotiate with them !? They were already sent by our forest at the expense of the meeting in the "Normandy format" they did not fulfill anything from the promised except the exchange.

[Non liberoid Russian]

how many units of alder ukrov in the army?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Not Liberoid Russian

how many units of alder ukrov in the army?

A huge amount - 0,0 and per year they produce - 0,0! Power ...

[Well done]

Eugene, how are you ... minus. All ?! Colonel, you are a corporal. Sniff you on the shoulder strap!

[Albert1988]

Quote: Welldone

Eugene, how are you ... minus. All ?! Colonel, you are a corporal.

First, I do not minus everyone, for example, rabid Bandera supporters, such as "September Third" ...
Secondly, these pixel titles are deeply indifferent to me, you, as I hope, will notice that to most members of the forum these titles do not matter ...
Third - finally, try to develop a culture of communication ...

[Well done]

Self-isolation is to blame. Alcohol and cats. Pixel generals ... I minus only outright Bandera and Czechs.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Welldone

Alcohol

I will allow myself to quote citizen Shpak - "You need to eat!"
All the best to you, do not be sick!

[Well done]

Have a nice one you too.

[Well done]

It infuriates me that they’re being minus, but they’re suffering comments at the fifth point. Divanism! Amazed, this is your year!

[Avior]

Not at all
Tests are passing

[APASUS]

Infa went that this year the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine did not allocate funds for the purchase and R&D on the MLRS "Alder-M". The plant is conducting tests on its own, in the hope of an external customer? It seems to me that the Western leadership does not need a Ukraine that produces weapons, and Zeliboba did not understand this moment or cannot stop everything under the pressure of the Nazis. The economic crisis will make some adjustments to this program ..............

[Zementbomber]

The Ministry of Defense allocated funds for the purchase of Neptune and Vilkha, but changed the financing procedure. If earlier all missile projects were financed by a direct line of the budget, now the ministry has allocated loans to Luch for missiles against state guarantees. But KB Luch refused to accept government guarantees as a form of payment.

[APASUS]

Quote: Zementbomber

If earlier all missile projects were financed by a direct budget line, now the ministry has allocated loans to Luch for missiles against state guarantees.

State guarantees of the country, without 5 minutes of bankrupt? If there is no direct money, then obtaining guarantees from this state will be even more problematic. Rather, you have to wait for a rich investor from over the hill

[Zementbomber]

Ukraine - "without 5 minutes - bankrupt" from the second half of 1992. Of course, if you believe the "competent assessments of" experts ". The time interval is 5 minutes. - has not yet been overcome. "End of the World - moved again!" (C)

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Ukraine has been "bankrupt in 5 minutes" since the second half of 1992. According to the "competent estimates of" experts, "of course, the time interval of 5 minutes has not yet been overcome.

Russia was kind - it gave money 15 lards of greens a year, that’s delayed 5 minutes, but Europe’s evil - it’s not just that they spend some money on a freebie from a gentleman’s shoulder. he them at percentages, you can’t return? Well, give it in kind))))

[Zementbomber]

Well, it has been over 6 years since Russia has become "evil". A "5 minutes." all never expired. Already bored with "forecasts" with the formulation "with the onset of always next year."

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, it has been over 6 years since Russia has become "evil". A "5 minutes." all never expired. Already bored with "forecasts" with the formulation "with the onset of always next year."

And you listen to Zelu as he runs now ...
I’ll tell you a secret - Ukraine has been in default for a long time, do you think the IMF just shows them a shish with oil? It's just that now everything is already completely bad, you’ll have to sell the land over the hill ...

[Zementbomber]

A simple question: if "Ukraine has been in default for a long time" - why has this very default of Ukraine still not happened ??

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

A simple question: if "Ukraine has been in default for a long time" - why has this very default of Ukraine still not happened ??
Reply

He came - not corny announced ...
I now have acquaintances from Kiev, programmers, I work as the National Bank of Ukraine, sawing a secondary site for him. and so - the work of the National Bank shows very clearly that the default is long-standing and deep. and from the outside - how much is the IMF pulling with loans? If you default, then no one will ever give anything, but if you don’t declare it, you can turn around - sell the land abroad for debts, all kinds of Swedes will buy a black soil and a lot))))

If you are interested in the 98th year in Russia - it’s just there .... the Yeltsin’s check-outs were noted - they decided they’d declare a default and we won’t give a loan, o-la-la, it didn’t fail, so don .... they give default to declare - there are serious puppeteers there - Uncle Benya, for example, until he turns his money around properly, no defaults)))

[Zementbomber]

He came - not corny announced ...

In the world of credit ratings, there are no "undeclared" defaults. Although the fact of sovereign default may indeed not be recognized by the state. But this has no practical meaning even in the case of the United States. Google - "sovereign credit ratings".

you can turn around - sell the land abroad at the expense of debts, all kinds of Swedes will buy black soil and a lot))))

Reading and smoking Russian media is bad for mental health.

Individual and legal entities created on the territory of Ukraine by citizens of Ukraine, whose owners are exclusively citizens of Ukraine, can buy land for agricultural use. Also - the state and territorial communities.
Banks can also, but only in the manner of collecting collateral (if someone pledged land to the bank, and then did not buy the land back).
Foreigners, stateless persons cannot be buyers of agricultural land. They cannot even be part of the founders, shareholders or shareholders of economic entities that buy land. They are forbidden to have shares, part of the authorized capital, shares in companies that are owners of land.

And yes - Zelya has long been independent of Beni. He went on an independent flight.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

In the world of credit ratings, there are no "undeclared" defaults.

In the world of politics, everything happens, for example, it turns out that China is to blame for such an epidemic in the USA ... Well, the lambs are to blame for the fact that the wolves want to ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Although the fact of sovereign default may indeed not be recognized by the state. But this has no practical meaning even in the case of the United States. Google - "sovereign credit ratings".

Again, when a policy intervenes, a credit rating can ... change dramatically, otherwise how can one explain that with a not very dead rating, the IMF so insistently refuses to give already promised loans?

Quote: Zementbomber

Reading and smoking Russian media is bad for mental health.

And the Ukrainian media is simply deadly)))) The redistribution of land ownership is coming inevitably more than the current epidemic ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And yes - Zelya has long been independent of Beni. He went on an independent flight.

Oh yes, self-reliant Do you get grandmothers yourself? Lives on party contributions

[Zementbomber]

In the world of politics, everything happens, for example, it turns out that China is to blame for such an epidemic in the USA ... Well, the lambs are to blame for the fact that the wolves want to ...

This is blah blah blah.

Again, when a policy intervenes, a credit rating can ... change dramatically, otherwise how can one explain that with a not very dead rating, the IMF so insistently refuses to give already promised loans?

Mix warm with soft. Lending to the IMF, the World Bank Group and the EBRD is not tied to ratings at all.

And the Ukrainian media is simply deadly)))) The redistribution of land ownership is coming inevitably more than the current epidemic ...

If the draft did not pass, do we change our shoes in the jump?
I remind you - it was announced that "foreign Swedes" will now buy up all the land ...

Oh yes, does the self-loving laughing laughing Grandma also get on her own? Lives on party contributions laughing

They feed him so well. Not on the scale of services for one lieutenant colonel of course - but very, very good.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

This is blah blah blah.

I'll tell you the "secret" - everything that we write here is blah-blah-blah, because if a person does not sit in a high office and does not have access to a reliable infe, then he will only blah-blah-blah ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Mix warm with soft. Lending to the IMF, the World Bank Group and the EBRD is not tied to ratings at all.

Oh yeah? And why then are ratings created? and based on what?

Quote: Zementbomber

If the draft did not pass, do we change our shoes in the jump?
I remind you - it was announced that "foreign Swedes" will now buy up all the land ...

Not land, as an area, but black soil - will be taken out))) A citizen of ukraine buys a land plot as his property. and there comes a private western campaign, like "rent" to take ...
And it’s not me who is throwing the two of us here

Quote: Zementbomber

They feed him so well. Not on the scale of services for one lieutenant colonel of course - but very, very good.

Colonel your vaunted and dill propaganda already raised to the rank of Emperor Palpatine (Palputin ) - an oligarchic puppet ... The same and Zelya - a puppet of money uncles, only on a smaller scale ...

[Zementbomber]

I'll tell you the "secret" - everything that we write here is blah-blah-blah, because if a person does not sit in a high office and does not have access to a reliable infe, then he will only blah-blah-blah ... laughing

Again, empty empty general phrases ...

Oh yeah? And why then are ratings created? and based on what?

Well, yes. In the criteria of the IMF and other related MFIs - there is no requirement for the sovereign credit rating of the borrower. The IMF can also provide officially defaulted country loans under certain conditions.
And about credit ratings - hereinafter on the linked links: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan_Rating

Not land, as an area, but black soil - will be taken out))) A citizen of ukraine buys a land plot as his property. and there comes a private western campaign, like "rent" to take ...

I understand that reading the collaborationist-fascist information wipes a la "Anti-Fascist" news agency is much more exciting than the boring-tedious Laws through an auto-translator.
But nevertheless for the general development - I will give the link:
https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/962-15

And throwing the two of us here is not me wink

It is you who really is. The course "information war" - I listened and passed at the Academy back in the last century - I calculate at once. It is not by chance that the old-school Soviet and early post-Soviet school (including its representatives who play for you) evaluates the quality of training and motivation of the current and hired and volunteer Russian information infantry as "infomasso." There is practically no preparation at all. "The era of" Yes, and so it will come down! ".

Your lieutenant colonel, vaunted and dill propaganda already elevated to the rank of Emperor Palpatine (Palputin laughing), is an oligarchic puppet ... The same and Zelya is a puppet of money uncles, only on a smaller scale ...

Emperor Palpatine (official, by passport) - sits in our city council of Odessa. Well, yes - the leader of a bourgeois state - must be a loyal servant of big business. Otherwise, they will dispose of nafig. And it's good - if they dispose of it only in a political sense. Because with a particularly daring kick - even all 51289 people. "Voenov FSO" collectively - will not help. In this Pu and Ze are no different from each other. And Mr. Trump is no different from them either. Therefore, I belong to the campaigns in the style of "NameRek is cool!" (option: "NameRek - ATSTSky Demon-SOTONO!") - ironically calm.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Again, empty empty general phrases ...

Exactly like you I remind you - if you do not enter the offices, then DO NOT own the information, and if you enter, you will never tell anyone in life))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, yes. In the criteria of the IMF and other related MFIs - there is no requirement for the sovereign credit rating of the borrower. The IMF can also provide officially defaulted country loans under certain conditions.

Well, who said that a credit rating is the root cause, not the consequence? And then - if you look at the credit rating of Ukraine, then it ranges from CCC + to B, that is, to the bottom ... Why?

Quote: Zementbomber

Emperor Palpatine (official, by passport) - sits in our city council of Odessa.

You and Vader and Chewbacca celebrated their political life there. I recognize directly my relatives in the 90s with the "Party of Beer Lovers" in GosDur, "General Dima", etc.

Quote: Zementbomber

Well and yes - the leader of the bourgeois state - must be a loyal servant of big capital. Otherwise - they dispose of nafig. And it’s good if they are disposed of only in the political sense.

So, so what other doubts about the role of Mr. Grinsky in the political life of Ukraine?

Quote: Zementbomber

Because with a particularly daring kick - even all 51289 people. "Voenov FSO" collectively - will not help.

This is another question to whom they will then obey ...

Quote: Zementbomber

In this Pu and Ze are no different from each other.

Well then, what are the illusions about Zeli?

Quote: Zementbomber

Therefore, I belong to campaigns in the style of "NameRek is cool!" (option: "NameRek - ATSTSky Demon-SOTONO!") - ironically calm.

Well, Zeli's campaign is just an example, about the "Darkest" there is no longer any doubt, I certainly have, and for a long time ...

[Zementbomber]

Exactly, just like your wink, I remind you - if you do not enter the offices, then DO NOT own the information, and if you enter, you will never tell anyone in life))))

Both statements are ridiculous nonsense in reality. In life - everything is "somewhat" more complicated.

Well, who said that a credit rating is the root cause, not the consequence? And then - if you look at the credit rating of Ukraine, then it ranges from CCC + to B, that is, to the bottom ... Why?

A credit rating is such a "consequence" that, after "following" it, itself becomes a "cause".
And your initial statement was, I recall that the well-known difficulties of negotiations on further lending to Ukraine by the IMF are associated with a low sovereign credit rating of Ukraine. Changing your shoes again?

So, so what other doubts about the role of Mr. Grinsky in the political life of Ukraine?

Government and President are always servants collective interests of big capital, not a separate AlEgarh. Solely on the President and the Cabinet could not influence even Renatik, and even during the time of the WFJ.

This is another question to whom they will then obey ...

Just not the question is actually ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Both statements are ridiculous nonsense in reality. In life - everything is "somewhat" more complicated.

So do not simplify))))

Quote: Zementbomber

A credit rating is such a "consequence" that, after "following" it, itself becomes a "cause".
And your initial statement was, I recall that the well-known difficulties of negotiations on further lending to Ukraine by the IMF are associated with a low sovereign credit rating of Ukraine. Changing your shoes again?

I did not say. that the IMF does not give Ukraine money based on its TFR, I said that the TFR of Ukraine is very, very normal - it became already B, but the IMF does not give money anyway, does it mean that everything is clean with a credit rating? Will the IMF give money to someone who is not guaranteed to give? Or is there a big risk of not giving back? That's it ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The Government and the President are always servants of the collective interests of big capital, and not of an individual AlEgarh. Solely on the President and the Cabinet could not influence even Renatik, and even during the time of the WFJ.

Well, why are these common truths here? It is clear that there is a cheerful company in which everyone, if not steers everyone, successfully pushes their interests. So the same Rinatik is actively pushing its "green energy", which is much more expensive from something))))

[Zementbomber]

So do not simplify))))

Note - at the wrong address.

I did not say. that the IMF does not give Ukraine money based on its TFR, I said that the TFR of Ukraine is very, very normal - it became already B, but the IMF does not give money anyway, does it mean that everything is clean with a credit rating? Will the IMF give money to someone who is not guaranteed to give? Or is there a big risk of not giving back? That's it ...

Once again: the position of the IMF on lending issues is not related to the TFR from the word "absolutely". And yes - the IMF more than once and not even 10 times - lent even knowingly and officially completely insolvent. Even those who were known to have no value for the "conditional" West.

Well, why are these common truths?

To the fact that you do not take them into account. I have to remind.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Once again: the position of the IMF on lending issues is not related to the TFR from the word "absolutely".

You wanted to say that she not based on TFR ... This is indisputable, TFR is rather a consequence of the IMF's work - they gave someone a big loan - TFR has grown ... And so on. Smaller lenders will in any case focus on larger ones.

Quote: Zementbomber

The IMF more than once, and not even 10 times - lent even knowingly and officially completely insolvent. Even those who were known to have no value for the "conditional" West.

And here you, my friend, are mistaken - a loan is ALWAYS issued exclusively with an eye to get something from the credited. Moreover, the issuance of a loan to an insolvent client in advance can be deliberately made with the aim of later making him pay off more than others - for example, giving full access to his natural resources, domestic market, etc. Or then tie him up to political decisions that will be beneficial to creditors.
There is, of course, one more option - corruption, when a non-paying client simply gives a rollback to anyone who needs it, this also cannot be ruled out ....

Quote: Zementbomber

To the fact that you do not take them into account. I have to remind.

Then read carefully!))

[Zementbomber]

TFR is more likely a consequence of the IMF's work - they gave someone a big loan - TFR has grown ...

TFR are formed not So.

A loan is ALWAYS issued solely with the aim of receiving something from the credited. Moreover, the issuance of a loan to an insolvent client in advance can be deliberately made with the aim of later making him pay off more than others - for example, giving full access to his natural resources, domestic market, etc. Or then tie him up to political decisions that will be beneficial to creditors.

First of all no not always. Although - "usually" yes.
Secondly - the above happens. And often. But then again - not is always. This is especially "not always" the case for MFI loans and loans in emergency situations (including wartime).

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

TFRs are formed in a different way.

It’s important not HOW, but for what reason ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Firstly - no, not always.

Yah? are we really got altruists?
And then - the main thing is that it is in the case of Ukraine - it is all so by 146%)))))

[Zementbomber]

It’s important not HOW, but for what reason ...

Sophistry.

Yah? are we really got altruists?
And then - the main thing is that it is in the case of Ukraine - it is all so by 146%)))))

Of course not, not wound up. But intangible considerations may work - for example, fashion considerations. In any case - lending by the MFIs of Ukraine - pursues mainly non-economic final goals.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Sophistry.

I will disappoint you - but the question is HOW? and why? - two different questions ...

Quote: Zementbomber

No, of course not. But intangible considerations may work - for example, fashion considerations. In any case - lending by the MFIs of Ukraine - pursues mainly goals of a non-economic final nature.

Lending to Ukraine still has a very serious economic component))))
But I agree - the political component is bigger, but nevertheless, politics is done for the sake of the economy, so that ultimately the goals are economic, only far-reaching ...

[Zementbomber]

I will disappoint you - but the question is HOW? and why? - two different questions ...

Yes, Cap Obvious! But that's just - you tried to answer exactly the question "HOW?" - and effectively flopped into a puddle.

Lending to Ukraine still has a very serious economic component))))
But I agree - the political component is bigger, but nevertheless, politics is done for the sake of the economy, so that ultimately the goals are economic, only far-reaching ...

"political economism", the thesis about the determinism of politics by economics - has long been turned into mothballs.

[APASUS]

Quote: Zementbomber

Ukraine - "without 5 minutes. - bankrupt" since the second half of 1992. If you believe the "competent estimates of" experts "of course. The time interval of 5 minutes - has not yet been overcome." The end of the world - again postponed! "(C)

Sorry, I messed up! Ukraine is the most powerful European state, the first army on the continent, the financial center of the world is located in Zhmerinka ................. the problem is that with all the wealth of Ukraine, they do not allocate money, but only guarantees. I can distinguish guarantees from real money and why would it suddenly?

[Zementbomber]

Not in Zhmerinka - but in Berdichev.
What are the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Europe? - hard to say in fact. No one can calculate how much the third tank fleet in Europe compensates for a purely rudimentary combat fleet? Etc. But not higher than 5 in any case.
And yes - I can distinguish state guarantees "from" live "money. And a partial change in the financing scheme of the state defense order was due to the desire to make its executors work better.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

What are the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Europe? - hard to say in fact. No one can calculate how much the third tank fleet in Europe compensates for a purely rudimentary combat fleet? Etc. But not higher than 5 in any case.

According to the latest data from your American White Masters, the Ukrainian Armed Forces are in 27th place in the world. "Defeated and crushed akhressor" taking into account his equestrian-diving Buryats and excluding nuclear weapons - on the second ...

[Zementbomber]

White Gentlemen (who are Real Gentlemen - United States Intelligence Community for example - and not clowns from "independent expert centers") - do not consider the integral power of the Armed Forces at all. Only separately by component. Since it is considered impossible to bring to a common denominator howitzer, strategic air defense air defense systems and frigates. According to ground forces, without taking into account the potential of weapons of mass destruction, they classified Ukraine as occupying 7th place in Europe and 18th in the World. Russia is the 2nd in Europe (if we count the grouping in Asian Russia and Central Asia, then the 1st) and the 3rd in the World.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

who are Real Gentlemen - United States Intelligence Community

Such generally do not post anything serious in open access)))

Quote: Zementbomber

Since leading to a common denominator of the howitzer, strategic air defense air defense systems and frigates are considered impossible.

The strength of the Armed Forces is not only "equipment" - it is also logistics, the ability to carry out operations of various types, the speed of reaction to certain situations, etc.

Quote: Zementbomber

and 3rd in the World.

And who is on the second? Martians?

[Zementbomber]

Such generally do not post anything serious in open access)))

Of course. But my eldest son is still an employee of the US DIA after all. Of course - basically he asks me, and not I - but sometimes the individual interesting features of a low neck - throws up.

The strength of the Armed Forces is not only "equipment" - it is also logistics, the ability to carry out operations of various types, the speed of reaction to certain situations, etc.

Yes, Cap Evidence! Including that is why - the NE of Britain, France, Germany and Italy - quite significantly inferior to the NE of Ukraine in the fleet of the main types of military equipment (except for helicopters and UAVs) - they are still fairly considered stronger than the Ukrainian NE.

And who is on the second? laughing martians?

Nah - Separate Tranklyukatorny Case of course !! In the official rating of the Intelligence Community of the States - in the 2nd global position - the CPRG. However, a very significant part of their experts believe that the ground component of the PLA in wartime (when the "cadre military militia" will join it) will undoubtedly take the 1st place (for the case of a non-nuclear war, of course). In Europe (taking into account Asia Minor and the South Caucasus) - in the 1st position of the Ground Forces of Turkey (if, again, do not take into account the Russian groupings in the Asian part of your country and in Central Asia).

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Chinese Army. However, a very significant part of their experts believe that the ground component of the PLA in wartime (when the "cadre military militia" will join it) will undoubtedly take the 1st place (for the case of a non-nuclear war, of course).

If only in numbers ....

[Zementbomber]

Already - not only. Although quantitative superiority in war continues to retain "significant importance." It is still possible to "shower the enemy" with "meat". It just takes a lot of "meat" for this.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Already - not only.

But this is very controversial, but nothing - let's see what the Americans say there for "next year" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

It is still possible to "shower the enemy with" meat ". It just takes a lot of" meat "for this.

I will disappoint you - the tactic of "throwing meat" became ineffective back in the First World War ... So throwing it in lead and iron - yes, it works, but "meat" became ineffective already at the time of the invention of machine guns

[Zementbomber]

But this is very controversial, but nothing - let's see what the Americans say there for "next year" ...

OK.

I will disappoint you - the tactic of "throwing meat" became ineffective back in the First World War ... So throwing it in lead and iron - yes, it works, but "meat" became ineffective already at the time of the invention of machine guns hi

This tactic - often successfully worked in the Second World War. On a small tactical scale - it worked sometimes even during the Second Chechen War (once it worked then even in an operational format - on the scale of that war) and during our War in the South-East. Well, let me remind you: in our time - the concept of "throwing meat" refers not only to purely "manpower". Slang term "tank meat" - appeared on the Eastern Front at the latest in 1943, for example.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

This tactic - often successfully worked also in World War II.

I repeat - the words are not mine, the words of a number of historians - from the moment of the invention of the machine gun, the tactics of throwing meat stopped working)))) That throw iron - please! Actually, the huge losses of the Red Army in a number of operations, for example, the failed attack near Rzhev, was largely due to the fact that the Red Army could fire half as many shells per unit of time. than the Wehrmacht ((((

Quote: Zementbomber

On a small tactical scale - she sometimes worked even in the Second Chechen (once she worked even in the operational - in the scale of that war - format)

As far as I am familiar with the Chechen wars of the 90s - there an attempt to crush meat resulted inevitably in huge losses and the inevitable failure of the operation ...

Quote: Zementbomber

and during our War in the Southeast.

I wonder where?

Quote: Zementbomber

the concept of "throwing meat" refers not only to purely "manpower". Slang term "tank meat" - appeared on the Eastern Front at the latest in 1943, for example.

I confess that I have never met such a term in historiography, but I probably agreed - if a large number of tanks go with one "cutlet", they will overwhelm anyone even with heavy losses, the Germans did this without great losses, but the Red Army has such a long it didn’t work - they simply couldn’t collect enough tanks in one place so that they would advance in a single avalanche, and not in separate waves, alternately broken by the enemy, as on Prokhorovka ...

[Zementbomber]

words are not mine, the words of a number of historians - from the moment of the invention of the machine gun the tactics of throwing meat stopped working))))

Independently study the issue - did not try? This is now easy enough by the way - in my time it was much harder - but even that was possible.

As far as I am familiar with the Chechen wars of the 90s - there an attempt to crush meat resulted inevitably in huge losses and the inevitable failure of the operation ...

It is strange that you passed by such well-known (at least at least) episodes of the Second Chechen War, such as the breakthrough of the federal siege ring by the Ichkeria garrison of Grozny and the last battle of the 6th company of the 104th Guards. pdp in the Argun gorge ...

I wonder where?

Defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and DUK of the Donetsk International Airport - as a well-known (in Ukraine, for example) example. But in general, separatists have repeatedly practiced attacks with "live meat" during the 2014 campaign, and we have practiced this (but mainly with "tank meat"). Sometimes - there was success both with us and with them. When attacking with live meat, for example, an elementary unit could simply run out of available ammunition. Or - people's nerves can't stand it. With all that it implies ...

if a large number of tanks go with one "cutlet", then they will overwhelm anyone, even with heavy losses, the Germans did this without great losses

The absolute losses of the attacking units in the tanks - while the Germans were actually quite large - even during the Polish Campaign. But with a density of battle formations (layered of course) up to ~ 100 tanks per 1 km of the breakthrough site ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Independently study the issue - did not try? This is now easy enough by the way - in my time it was much harder - but even that was possible.

Why fence a "dung tank" if it was invented long ago by competent people during the First World War? If a number of competent independent sources come to the conclusion that there was no "meat throwing", then it was not with an overwhelming probability ...

Quote: Zementbomber

It is strange that you passed by such well-known (at least at least) episodes of the Second Chechen War, such as the breakthrough of the federal siege ring by the Ichkeria garrison of Grozny and the last battle of the 6th company of the 104th Guards. pdp in the Argun gorge ...

If you look at the second episode you mentioned - the battle at 776 heights, then there was a typical suppression of a small group of Russian troops due to the fire superiority of the militants. This is especially illustrated by the causes of death of Russian soldiers - more than half of the deaths occurred due to shrapnel wounds and explosive injuries ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Sometimes - success has been with us and them.

This is the most important thing - sometimes, I even singled it out)))) Considering the nature of the civil war, when half of the soldiers are well aware that they are shooting at their own (in Chechnya, at least there was an ethno-cultural element in the division of the warring parties), such situations are not surprising, as well as mass " commercial relations with the enemy "and constant transitions back and forth ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The absolute losses of the attacking units in the tanks - while the Germans were actually quite large - even during the Polish Campaign.

The Germans compensated for the decent losses of tanks during the offensive by a good repair of damaged vehicles, which the Red Army didn’t get to the end. And during the Polish company - the combat experience, the Wehrmacht had a gulkin nose, so it is not surprising that the Germans had some problems there ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But with a density of battle formations (layered of course) up to ~ 100 tanks per 1 km of the breakthrough site ...

Well, this is the most important thing - it was the creation of a powerful attacking formation, built to great depths, striking at a very narrow section of the front and allowing German troops to break through almost any defense so effectively.

[Zementbomber]

If a number of competent independent sources come to the conclusion that there was no "meat throwing", then it was not with an overwhelming probability ...

And what about numerous facts and documents (including those of the high command) that contradict "competent independent conclusions" - and the level of reliability is "reinforced concrete"?

If you look at the second episode you mentioned - the battle at 776 heights, then there was a typical suppression of a small group of Russian troops due to the fire superiority of the militants. This is especially illustrated by the causes of death of Russian soldiers - more than half of the deaths occurred due to shrapnel wounds and explosive injuries ...

Reminder of the story of the breakthrough of the Grozny garrison through the positions of the federals - as expected, you tried to "not notice" ...
And tell me, plz: what kind of fire superiority could the “militants” have at altitude 776 if the units of the 104th Infantry Regiment in this area supported 18 Nona-S and 9 mortars (including 3 automatic).
And the causes of death ... Do not forget that there was both "friendly" and "divine" fire.

The Germans compensated for the decent losses of tanks during the offensive by a good repair of damaged vehicles, which the Red Army didn’t get to the end.

Nevertheless, if 278 Pz.IV was involved in the Polish Campaign, then only 211 were involved in the Campaign in the West. Well, I note that for every tank of the Red Army and the NKVD troops of the Great Patriotic War, there were more than three repairs.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

numerous facts and documents (including the high command) - and the level of reliability "reinforced concrete"?

And what kind of documents are these? very secret, like Rezun?

Quote: Zementbomber

Reminder of the story of the breakthrough of the Grozny garrison through the positions of the federals - as expected, you tried to "not notice" ...

And what to notice if the breakthrough was the result of complete bungling in the first place of the federal command? When at first they understood where the militants would break through, then they prepared a barrier there, then they also changed subunits in this area, without giving him the plans of minefields, etc. Moreover, according to the tales of the then command, the potential corridor was "specially kept to lure the militants out of Grozny," only nothing was done for this and the subsequent destruction. Small groups of militants walked back and forth along this route calmly, sometimes with the not free assistance of the "federals". The first group of Basayev was allowed to pass at all, and they were not just fired upon, but generally not watched (the shelling appears only in the diary of one of the militants, in reality all the losses from the explosion on mines). The minefield turned out to be "liquid" - we passed almost without losses. But when the main detachment went - 3-4 thousand, then those who left the corny already had no choice - they went to the civilian and the vast majority without weapons, so when they began to shoot at them, all that was left was to run. And in the end it turned out to be a very serious defeat of the militants, even taking into account the fact that the detachments covering them from the rear let in almost without shelling at all ... So, firstly, the tactics of "human waves" in this case was spontaneous, and secondly, the militants were helped by the night and poor equipment of federal troops for night combat, otherwise they would not have put half, but all of them ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And tell me, plz: what kind of fire superiority could the “militants” have at altitude 776 if the units of the 104th Infantry Regiment in this area supported 18 Nona-S and 9 mortars (including 3 automatic).

And how were these trunks adjusted? This is one, two, when against 90 people it costs 700 (the smallest possible amount), then fire superiority will be overwhelming in small arms.
And then:

Quote: Zementbomber

And the causes of death ... Do not forget that there was both "friendly" and "divine" fire.

That is, it turns out that it was the federal forces that shot themselves ... And where does the militants bombarding our paratroopers with their meat?
And if you take into account that about 200 militants died, it was from artillery fire, and not from direct contact with the paratroopers.

Quote: Zementbomber

Nevertheless, if in the Polish Campaign 278 Pz.IV was involved, then in the Campaign in the West - only 211.

It is clear that some cars were irretrievably lost, and some were under restoration / repair.

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, I note that for every tank of the Red Army and the NKVD troops of the Great Patriotic War - there were more than three repairs.

Uh, my friend, you need to distinguish between "light" repairs such as replacing the air filter in the engine, go even a big breakdown that the crew can eliminate on their own even in the field, from the restoration of a vehicle that is sufficiently damaged in battle, which must first be dragged from the field to the repair base. This is for the Germans - the restoration was put on stream, which made it possible not to produce such a large number of tanks. But the Red Army had problems with this to the end - even potentially maintainable tanks were massively left in the fields and were blown up after possible spare parts were removed from them.

[Zementbomber]

And what kind of documents are these? very secret, like Rezun?

The main (and incredibly cool) feature of Rezun's historical works is precisely that he stands for all his argumentation exclusively on open publicly available (for the most part - those that were still in the Soviet pre-perestroika times) sources.
In this case, study:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бой_у_высоты_776#Погибшие
(there is a link to the verdict posted in the public domain on the off-site)

And what to notice if the breakthrough was the result of complete bungling in the first place of the federal command? When at first they understood where the militants would break through, then they prepared a barrier there, then they also changed subunits in this area, without giving him the plans of minefields, etc. Moreover, according to the tales of the then command, the potential corridor was "specially kept to lure the militants out of Grozny," only nothing was done for this and the subsequent destruction. Small groups of militants walked back and forth along this route calmly, sometimes with the not free assistance of the "federals". The first group of Basayev was allowed to pass at all, and they were not just fired upon, but generally not watched (the shelling appears only in the diary of one of the militants, in reality all the losses from the explosion on mines). The minefield turned out to be "liquid" - we passed almost without losses. But when the main detachment went - 3-4 thousand, then those who left the corny already had no choice - they went to the civilian and the vast majority without weapons, so when they began to shoot at them, all that was left was to run. And in the end it turned out to be a very serious defeat of the militants, even taking into account the fact that the detachments covering them from the rear let in almost without shelling at all ... So, firstly, the tactics of "human waves" in this case was spontaneous, and secondly, the militants were helped by the night and poor equipment of federal troops for night combat, otherwise they would not have put half, but all of them ...

A-proofs confirming such a fascinating story - do you have, I suppose?

And how were these trunks adjusted? This is one, two, when against 90 people it costs 700 (the smallest possible amount), then fire superiority will be overwhelming in small arms.

Correction post at height. And yes - against such a number of artillery support means - no conceivable superiority purely in shooting for the attacking infantry will matter.

And then:
Quote: Zementbomber
And the causes of death ... Do not forget that there was both "friendly" and "divine" fire.

That is, it turns out that it was the federal forces that shot themselves ... And where does the militants bombarding our paratroopers with their meat?

Calling fire at your own location is a standard procedure in certain critical tactical situations. And not only in the USSR / RF Armed Forces. + there were banal mistakes of spotters when issuing coordinates for shooting on the "fire border".
And yes, "throwing meat" here, "besides," to stop these human waves corny, neither the density of fire, nor ammunition from the company was enough.

Uh, my friend, you need to distinguish between "light" repairs such as replacing the air filter in the engine, go even a big breakdown that the crew can eliminate on their own even in the field, from the restoration of a vehicle that is sufficiently damaged in battle, which must first be dragged from the field to the repair base. This is for the Germans - the restoration was put on stream, which made it possible not to produce such a large number of tanks. But the Red Army had problems with this to the end - even potentially maintainable tanks were massively left in the fields and were blown up after possible spare parts were removed from them.

So I just mean factory repair. Front-line tank repair plants and workshops GURT NKO and tank repair plants GURT NKTP, as well as serial plants NKTP. It was they - without taking into account repairs in brigades and below - that more than 430 thousand repairs of tanks and self-propelled guns were carried out during the war.

[APASUS]

Quote: Zementbomber

. A partial change in the financing scheme for public defense contracts occurred due to the desire to make its performers work better.

Load the arms manufacturer with loans, well, in which case, offer to use state guarantees ...................... Is this something to help organize the work?

[Albert1988]

Quote: APASUS

Is this help in organizing work?

After such help, they already got Antonov, Kharkov factories are on the verge of bankruptcy, and Nikolaev is generally taken over ... Yuzhmash is still alive - as long as there is technology. which Americans, Chinese can suck from it and which can be quietly driven to the same North Koreans

[Zementbomber]

After such help, they already got Antonov, Kharkov factories are on the verge of bankruptcy, and Nikolaev is generally taken over ... Yuzhmash is still alive - as long as there is technology. which Americans, Chinese can suck out of it and which can be quietly driven to the same North Koreans wink

It is not Yuzhmashzavod that "drives" into "Strana Kimia". And KB "Yuzhnoye". Suddenly - these are and have always been completely separate economic entities.
"Antonov" has always received the bureaucratic part of the funding directly by money.
And "Kharkov factories" - it depends on which ones. As if KSAMC - it is not the first year that he lay down like a corpse and will not get up. As if the local BTZ - so he lives well by Ukrainian standards ..

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

It is not Yuzhmashzavod that "drives" into "Strana Kimia". And KB "Yuzhnoye". Suddenly - these are and have always been completely separate economic entities.

However, without each other they are absolutely meaningless ...

Quote: Zementbomber

As if the local BTZ - so it lives well by Ukrainian standards ..

That is, by Russian very "soft" standards, it is almost dead ...

[Zementbomber]

However, without each other they are absolutely meaningless ...

How is it? They are not Siamese twins. - the death of a partner with some difficulty, but they will survive. Moreover, Ukraine also has one more site for "large rocketry" - Pavlohrad Mechanical.

That is, by Russian very "soft" standards, it is almost dead ...

In the wet fantasies of "non-brothers" - yes, of course. And in Real Reality - he has a decent order for his conversion of -80BV to BVD and a number of other contracts, which is quite decent for his actual capacities.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

How is it? They are not Siamese twins. - The death of a partner with some difficulty, but survive.

If the factory is done only the old and nothing new, then the death of the design bureau will survive, if the design bureau draws only pieces of paper, it will survive the death of the plant ....

Quote: Zementbomber

In the wet fantasies of "non-brothers" - yes, of course. And in Real Reality - he has a quite decent order for his current capacities for the conversion of -80BV to BVD and a number of other contracts.

how can I tell you - this very "actual power", namely its size - is almost dead ...

[Zementbomber]

If the factory is done only the old and nothing new, then the death of the design bureau will survive, if the design bureau draws only pieces of paper, it will survive the death of the plant ....

The plant has an ZKB. And + the opportunity to establish production development products of other design bureaus.
In KB - there is an OP. And + and the ability to offer products to other sites.

how can I tell you - this very "actual power", namely its size - is almost dead ...

And it must by all means be no less than "100500 tanks per day"?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

The plant has an ZKB. And + the opportunity to establish production development products of other design bureaus.

What kind?

Quote: Zementbomber

In KB - there is an OP. And + and the ability to offer products to other sites.

Again, what?

Quote: Zementbomber

And it must by all means be no less than "100500 tanks per day"?

how much it "should be", unfortunately, is now being decided by effective managers, not real needs, but that little fact. that before it was 100500, and now zero without a stick - this is already talking about something. And I understand if tanks were NOT actively used by the Ukrainian army ...

[Zementbomber]

What kind?

"Ray". Cr. Moreover, YuMZ also produces civilian products, which have their own developers.

Again, what?

PMZ, "Artem", foreign sites.

I understand that if tanks were NOT actively used by the Ukrainian army ...

They were "actively used" by us for the last time - in August 2014. Already over 5 years, as the loss of their own "single armored unit" or the destruction of such a separatist - directly "event" great "- so rarely, both now happens.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"Ray". Cr. Moreover, YuMZ also produces civilian products, which have their own developers.

That's good, but how much does it load his power? And then, what is meant by "civilian products" - if the engines are for civilian missiles, then good ...

Quote: Zementbomber

PMZ, "Artem", foreign sites.

There is a nuance - KB is developing a wide range of products that are not suitable for all sites.
But the most important thing is that a plant is jobs, design bureaus are jobs, and such a plant and such design bureaus are very highly qualified jobs! If any of this falls off, then a lot of people will lose their jobs, qualified, who will immediately fall down, and we must also take into account that each workplace in such a plant creates 10-20 more jobs! These people are also likely to lose their job ....

Quote: Zementbomber

They were "actively used" by us for the last time - in August 2014. Already over 5 years, as the loss of their own "single armored unit" or the destruction of such a separatist - directly "event" great "- so rarely, both now happens.

Suppose that after all these "boilers" the intensity of the OBD dropped dramatically, but then here's an example - not so long ago, the ever-memorable T-84s went to European tank competitions, being simply in a terrible technical condition, which led to such a meager performance of one of the most advanced post-Soviet tanks (((The question is what - they couldn't be repaired specifically before sending?

[Zementbomber]

This is good, but how much does it load its power?

I was not interested in the balance of capacity utilization at UMZ by types and nomenclature of products. But the underload of its capacities is very, very significant. It is many times (but not even two) lower than the full load, even in single-shift mode.

And then, what is meant by "civilian products" - if the engines are for civilian missiles, then good ...

And so are they. And also - there is a fig of various agricultural and transport engineering products. And even wind turbines for wind farms. And so on. And others. Just take a look at the site of "Yuzhmash".

There is a nuance - KB is developing a wide range of products that are not suitable for all sites.
But the most important thing is that a plant is jobs, design bureaus are jobs, and such a plant and such design bureaus are very highly qualified jobs! If any of this falls off, then a lot of people will lose their jobs, qualified, who will immediately fall down, and we must also take into account that each workplace in such a plant creates 10-20 more jobs! These people are also likely to lose their job ....

1) Certainly. "Nuances" - they are always there. And reorganization and change of partners are never painless;
2) It was not that the closure of the YuMZ (although personally I am a supporter of the closure of the YuMZ and the transfer of its missile and rocket and space programs to the PMZ) or the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau is "good." Let me remind you - it was about the fact that both - can live without a second.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

1) Certainly. "Nuances" - they are always there. And reorganization and change of partners are never painless;

Then why create yourself even more problems?

Quote: Zementbomber

although I personally advocate the closure of UMZ

And the loss of work by a huge number of highly qualified personnel and the disappearance of a cloud of related jobs ... shine!

Quote: Zementbomber

it was said that both of them could live without a second.

But it will be much more difficult than together, so again the question is - why create problems?

[Zementbomber]

Then why create yourself even more problems?

For example, because of the opportunity to solve due to the emergence of the Little New Problem - the Big Old Problem.

And the loss of work by a huge number of highly qualified personnel and the disappearance of a cloud of related jobs ... shine!

It not "huge" for a long time. This time. Saving jobs - not should and not can be an end in itself achieved at any cost - these are two.

But it will be much more difficult than together, so again the question is - why create problems?

Move the arrows again. The original wording was: "YuMZ and Yuzhnoye can live in the absence of each other." That "three pounds of happiness" will bring them from this - no one argued. Well, yes - with gangrene - amputation is needed.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

For example, because of the opportunity to solve due to the emergence of the Little New Problem - the Big Old Problem.

Only there is one problem: the new "small" problem turned out to be much larger and deeper than the "big old" one, forgive the pun)))

Quote: Zementbomber

It hasn't been "huge" for a long time. This time. Saving jobs should not and cannot be an end in itself at any cost - these are two.

Well then, why be surprised that the Ukrainian economy sags with each successive president?

Quote: Zementbomber

Move the arrows again. The original wording was: "YuMZ and Yuzhnoye can live in the absence of each other." That "three pounds of happiness" will bring them from this - no one argued. Well, yes - with gangrene - amputation is needed.

No, there are no arrows that you - I just know very well how enterprises are experiencing a break in old production ties, if at all ... And yes - in Ukraine, it seems, they decided to amputate everything at once ...

[Zementbomber]

Only there is one problem: the new "small" problem turned out to be much larger and deeper than the "big old" one, forgive the pun)))

No "turned out to be". Because we haven’t just gone this way yet. Unfortunately...

Well then, why be surprised that the Ukrainian economy sags with each successive president?

Galim Russian propaganda, which has nothing to do with reality.
We look and enjoy:
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Валовий_внутрішній_продукт_України#Динаміка_ВВП

No, there are no arrows that you - I just know very well how enterprises are experiencing a break in old production ties, if at all ... And yes - in Ukraine, it seems, they decided to amputate everything at once ...

Just blah blah blah.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Galim Russian propaganda, which has nothing to do with reality.
We look and enjoy:

Oh yes, GDP in bucks ... as old as the world. From what then, does the level of industrial production steadily decline?

Quote: Zementbomber

Just blah blah blah.

Well, yes, yes, but a drop in industrial production on the scale of a long-term negative trend is also blah blah blah ...

[Zementbomber]

Here is an example - not so long ago, the T-84 went on a memorable trip to European tank competitions, being just in a terrible technical condition, which led to such a meager performance of one of the most advanced post-Soviet tanks (((Question - couldn’t they be specifically repaired before shipping ?

Я not I know the reasons for the failure of our platoon at the Strong Europe Tank Challenge.
But no nonsense propaganda is here:
https://topwar.ru/142737-ukrainskie-oploty-ne-smogli-otstrelyatsya-na-evropeyskom-tankovom-biatlone.html
- not less than the gallows of. releases of strippers from our MO that the fault is only "insufficient training of the crews and the accompanying technical person" - it is clear that in no case can you trust.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

I do not know the reasons for the failure of our platoon at the Strong Europe Tank Challenge.
But no nonsense propaganda is here:

"Here" in general, everything is very vague, I remember there were videos of those very Ukrainian crews on the net. who videotaped well the condition of their car ...

Quote: Zementbomber

- not less than the gallows of. releases of strippers from our Ministry of Defense, that the fault is only "insufficient training of crews and an accompanying technical person"

[Zementbomber]

I remember on the network were videos of those same Ukrainian crews. who shot well in the video in what condition their cars ...

Don’t share the link?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Don’t share the link?

Can’t you find it yourself?

[Zementbomber]

What for? It was your argument - you must present it!

[Zementbomber]

after all these "boilers", the intensity of the OBD dropped dramatically

It was absolutely not in "boilers". And in the purely current, purely personal-physical-selfish, internal political and personal-business considerations, Petr Alekseevich PorOshenko's Antiresakhs. And "boilers" - in the true sense of the word - are real not It was. Except for the "Slavic pot". But it was just that - they got into it and not our formations. And a certain "Colonel" Strelkov "...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

It was absolutely not about the "boilers".

Well, how to say - there were small corridors to the main forces, but this did not help those in the "non-boilers" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Except for the "Slavic pot". But it was just that - it was not our formations that got into it. And a certain "Colonel" Strelkov "...

Citizen Strelkov just left Slavyansk much less painfully than someone else from under Debaltseve and Ilovaysk.

Quote: Zementbomber

And in the purely current purely personal-physical-selfish, domestic political and personal-business considerations-Antiresah of Peter Alekseevich Poroshenko.

And also Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, Avakov, Parubiya - the list is long, like ALL this war ...

[Zementbomber]

Well, how to say - there were small corridors to the main forces, but this did not help those in the "non-boilers" ...

It is interesting why then the groupings within the reach of them quite systematically and orderly retreated through these "small corridors".

Citizen Strelkov just left Slavyansk much less painfully than someone else from under Debaltseve and Ilovaysk.

I have "slightly" other information. Fortunately - this comrade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qY2ruDN_jk
- I knew personally and intimately since the beginning of 2000. And for some time I kept in touch even after the niches of the track had completely diverged "on opposite sides of the barricades" in connection with the events in the South-East.

And also Yatsenyuk, Turchinov, Avakov, Parubiya - the list is long, like ALL this war ...

There, these "long lists" can be easily formed for all players from either side. Principle - "To whom - War! - and to whom - Mother Mila and Native!" - works equally in the Russian Federation, and in the DPR / LPR, and in Ukraine. But yes, all of these comrades really have “their own” interest of diamonds. ”This, however, does not negate the fact that in the political and economic system of Ukraine the President is an independent and self-sufficient figure from internal players.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

It is interesting why then the groupings within the reach of them quite systematically and orderly retreated through these "small corridors".

Well, yes, it turned out so, it turned out that "they were left without pants" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I have "slightly" other information. Fortunately - this comrade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qY2ruDN_jk
- I knew personally and intimately since the beginning of 2000. And for some time I kept in touch even after the niches of the track had completely diverged "on opposite sides of the barricades" in connection with the events in the South-East.

And Friends, of course, everything was reported to you)))) Directly from the forefront ...

Quote: Zementbomber

There, these "long lists" can be easily formed for all players from either side. Principle - "To whom - War! - and to whom - Mother Mila and Native!" - works equally in the Russian Federation, and in the DPR / LPR, and in Ukraine. But yes - all of these comrades really have "their own" interest of diamonds.

Exactly! Only the "patryoti garns" happily go for the sake of these "tambourine interests" to become "cyborgs", that is, "coffins" ... on both sides ...

Quote: Zementbomber

However, this does not negate the fact that in the political and economic system of Ukraine - the President is an independent and self-sufficient figure from internal players.

Oh yes, so independent ... Especially Pan Petro, who was himself an "internal player", almost the main one at that time, and Zelya, who was paid through and through by "internal players" ...

[Zementbomber]

Well, yes, it turned out so, it turned out that "they were left without pants" ...

And why were the "pants" surprisingly available?

And Friends, of course, everything was reported to you)))) Directly from the forefront ...

Of course, not everything. But since the flow of information could not be one-sided in any way - information, incl. and valuable enough, he had to tell me. And he reported.

Only the "patryoti garns" happily go for the sake of these "tambourine interests" to become "cyborgs", that is, "coffins" ... on both sides ...

They’re not going to war for this. There - as always - there is a complex complex of purely personal motives + an order.

Oh yes, so independent ... Especially Pan Petro, who was himself an "internal player", almost the main one at that time, and Zelya, who was paid through and through by "internal players" ...

The second is pornographic fantasy. And the first is your recognition of the full fidelity of my respective statement.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

And why were the "pants" surprisingly available?

If the pants are leaky now called pants, then yes, remained))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Of course, not everything. But since the flow of information could not be one-sided in any way - information, incl. and valuable enough, he had to tell me. And he reported.

And after that, you claim that your son works in some US intelligence agencies and provides you with some information from there? This is beautiful, just colossal!)))) Bravissimo))))

Quote: Zementbomber

They’re not going to war for this. There - as always - there is a complex complex of purely personal motives + an order.

Well, yes "personal motives" - they wanted to receive a piece of Baku a day, they just got land, 2 meters deep ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The second is pornographic fantasy.

Oga, of course, Zelya and his party live on the voluntary donations of the Ukrainian people))))

Quote: Zementbomber

And the first is your recognition of the full fidelity of my respective statement.

This is if the prezik has a lot of money in his pocket, but God forbid you, where does the penny from the clown Zelya come from?

[Zementbomber]

If the pants are leaky now called pants, then yes, remained))))

You see, what is the matter - the Real Reality is deep purple propaganda pron-fantasies. They will not change anything in it and cannot change - by definition.

And after that, you claim that your son works in some US intelligence agencies and provides you with some information from there? This is beautiful, just colossal!)))) Bravissimo))))

Why "in some" ?? US DIA HQ. Eurasian department.

Well, yes "personal motives" - they wanted to receive a piece of Baku a day, they just got land, 2 meters deep ...

Nobody offered so much. max level of pay for an ordinary shooter of a volunteer battalion was UAH 15000 per month. But I know a friend - one of the best benchresters in Ukraine, who received 1000 EUR + bonuses for each confirmed victory in a freeze. on the significance of the goal for each two-week trip to the "front". And he really bought some lands with this money, and built a house on it. In Russia, CHSH.

Oga, of course, Zelya and his party live on the voluntary donations of the Ukrainian people))))

Of course not. They have quite diversified sources of income.

This is if the prezik has a lot of money in his pocket, but God forbid you, where does the penny from the clown Zelya come from?

For the 100500th time: the post of the President of Ukraine - due to the formal and informal powers and opportunities that come "in a package" with it - gives an excellent chance, if desired, to enrich himself and become an independent political player. Even if you came to her as a pure puppet.

[Zementbomber]

Load the arms manufacturer with loans, well, in which case, offer to use state guarantees ...................... Is this something to help organize the work?

Yes. This greatly increases the responsibility of the Contractor. He broke the contract in significant points for disrespectful reasons - goodbye state guarantee, you will pay on loans yourself.

[APASUS]

Quote: Zementbomber

Yes. This greatly increases the responsibility of the Contractor. I broke the contract in significant points - forgiving the guarantee, you will pay on loans yourself.

Yes, stop it. These enterprises are already living within the framework of permanent bankruptcy, and such orders are just an opportunity for them not to stop production at all. Credit for them is an inadmissible luxury!

[Zementbomber]

If

These enterprises live within the framework of permanent bankruptcy.

- Why is a considerable part of them - in the net profit plus?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Yes. This greatly increases the responsibility of the Contractor.

Og, at first you do something out of the air to me, and then maybe I'll throw some money on you ...

[Zementbomber]

Why "out of thin air"? Show something good, and you get cost coverage and more margin.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Why "out of thin air"? Show something good, and you get cost coverage and more margin.

A good one needs to be done for something, and who will give the money? Bank? so there will be such percentages that then the state walrus will go to cover them ... entirely ... The producer is at zero ...

[Zementbomber]

You really don’t understand how it works in real life?
No, I can explain. But if you do not know in this case the ABCs - what for the discussion?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

You really don’t understand how it works in real life?

How it works - they understand for a long time and everyone who is a little familiar with this)))) The consequences of the work of "this" are very sad ...

[Zementbomber]

Well - if you think that the refusal to "flood the developer and manufacturer with dough on the advance" - entailed "sad consequences" - and was not an obvious consequence of the viciousness (and - suddenly - that's exactly what the "sad consequences") of the previous practice - then you really do not understand the real picture ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well - if you think that the refusal to "flood the developer and manufacturer with dough on the advance" - entailed "sad consequences" - and was not an obvious consequence of the viciousness (and - suddenly - that's exactly what the "sad consequences") of the previous practice - then you really do not understand the real picture ...

Why "flood with dough" - the manufacturer receives the amount of money necessary to carry out the work, while he is responsible for every penny spent, because all stages of work are checked, accountable for them, all risks are prescribed in advance (if it is R&D), moreover, he receives it’s not just a bunch of money, but it’s structured for everyone - these are salaries, this is for the purchase of new equipment, this is for conducting field tests, this is for the purchase of materials, etc.
And by such a method, as you described - you can not very sickly strangle the manufacturer - you received the order, but the money is dumb, where to get it? The only answer is to go to the bank. The bank, smelling the smell of guaranteed profit, will break the loan at extortionate interest, obeying the "omnipotent hand of the market." The plant, let's say, will fulfill the state contract, receive financing in full and will have to give most of it to the bank, and for the development, expansion of production and normal salaries - there is already a shish ... circuits work ...

[Zementbomber]

all stages of work are checked, accountable for them,

Sorry, but according to the reporting it is impossible to "check everything". Basically.

all risks are prescribed in advance (if it is R&D)

It's impossible. Even if you attach a list of 100500 sheets to the contract.

everything is structured - these are salaries, this is for the purchase of new equipment, this is for field tests, this is for the purchase of materials, etc.

But this is possible. But it leads to extremely negative results. I do not know of any R&D or R&D in which inter-budget balances are maintained. And the former head of my audit team (the highest economic one with honors, now a tax police regiment, one of the senior officials at NAMKU) didn’t know either.

and money is dumb, where to get it? The only answer is to go to the bank. The bank, smelling the smell of guaranteed profit, will break the loan at extortionate interest, obeying the "omnipotent hand of the market."

That's just when the return of the credit with the fulfillment of all conditions is guaranteed - the "omnipotent hand of the market" dictates reduce % against the usual rates. And make other solid preferences. In any case, even in the poorly civilized banking market of Ukraine, this has been working this way for several years. Great people so unloved by you / "Dashing" 90s - in this regard, really quite a long time ago.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Sorry, but according to the reporting it is impossible to "check everything". Basically.

We can and are checked from something ... even sometimes it is too closely.

Quote: Zementbomber

It's impossible. Even if you attach a list of 100500 sheets to the contract.

Not all risks at all, but all the most probable ones, they can be easily calculated.

Quote: Zementbomber

But this is possible. But it leads to extremely negative results. I do not know of any R&D or R&D in which inter-budget balances are maintained. And the former head of my audit team (the highest economic one with honors, now a tax police regiment, one of the senior officials at NAMKU) didn’t know either.

And all changes are coordinated in the course of work.

Quote: Zementbomber

Just when the return of the credit with the fulfillment of all the conditions is guaranteed, the "omnipotent hand of the market" dictates to reduce the% against the usual rates.

You will be surprised, but exactly the opposite - for it is not a 100% probability that a loan will be repaid here, but the enterprise has no choice.

[Zementbomber]

We can and are checked from something ... even sometimes it is too closely.

"check" - of course it is possible. "verify" - it is impossible.

You will be surprised, but exactly the opposite - for it is not a 100% probability that a loan will be repaid here, but the enterprise has no choice.

If the company had no choice, then it would be so. In Real Reality, banks will desperately compete for the possibility of lending under state guarantees.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"check" - of course. "check" is impossible.

Everything is possible, and check and check and recheck - you just need to have such a goal and desire, and they somehow strangely appear as soon as there is a question about "their own" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

If the company had no choice, then it would be so. In Real Reality, banks will desperately compete for the possibility of lending under state guarantees.

Oh, yes, to compete)))) Considering that, in principle, on the territory of the former USSR, cartel conspiracy in the banking sector is a ubiquitous and ordinary phenomenon, and the "independence" of most banks is so real ...

[Zementbomber]

Everything is possible, and check and check and double-check

I have to admit that you simply do not have real managerial experience.

Oh, yes, to compete)))) Considering that, in principle, on the territory of the former USSR, cartel conspiracy in the banking sector is a ubiquitous and ordinary phenomenon, and the "independence" of most banks is so real ...

Your ideas about the "post-Soviet" banking sector outside Russia are even 15 out of date. Therefore, I consider it pointless to discuss this point further.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

I have to admit that you simply do not have real managerial experience.

I may not, but my father also has a rich one, just in this area)))) Although there is an option - maybe you can't do it in "nenka", but in "Mordor" you can do something. ..

Quote: Zementbomber

Your ideas about the "post-Soviet" banking sector outside Russia are even 15 out of date. Therefore, I consider it pointless to discuss this point further.

Well, yes, well, yes, outdated, said a man who still thinks that Ukraine is capable of striking the "center of Moscow" ...

[Zementbomber]

I may not, but my father also has a rich one, just in this area)))) Although there is an option - maybe you can't do it in "nenka", but in "Mordor" you can do something. ..

This cannot be done anywhere. From Somalia to the United States including the DPRK. Because of the impossibility.

said a man who still thinks that Ukraine is capable of striking the "center of Moscow" ...

this person - unlike you - judges the Ukrainian Armed Forces (as well as the RF Armed Forces) not by the resources of the topwar level. And also - he himself took part in the development of this operation.

[Vasyan1971]

It is noted that the target was hit by the "first shot".

Naturally! Where the "first shot" hit, there was the target.

[tarakan]

They missed the target

[Mayak-SH-7]

Serial production of domestic Zoo-3 counter-battery radars has begun in Ukraine
The 1L220UK counter-battery radar is intended for reconnaissance of enemy artillery positions. The radar can "see" all the artillery weapons that are in the enemy's armament: mortars, all barreled artillery, anti-aircraft missile systems. With its help, you can determine where the projectile was fired from, the point of its fall and burst. "We give the coordinates of friendly artillery in order to suppress this point in a matter of seconds. We determine the place of firing with high accuracy" - director of the KP "NPK" Iskra "Yuri Pashchenko
Detection of air targets: range up to 500 km, at an altitude of 40 km, the number of simultaneous detected targets up to 500.

[Sky strike fighter]

Detection of air targets: range up to 500 km, at an altitude of 40 km, the number of simultaneous detected targets up to 500.

Oh floods. S-500 straight.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

Oh floods. S-500 straight.

Consider the 1000000 US Esminits class aircraft carriers

[Mayak-SH-7]

scared? Naturally, I added the performance characteristics from the Ukrainian 3D radar 80K6T, I knew that you couldn’t pass by, since you’re a shot down pilot, you don’t have anything to fear

[Albert1988]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

scared?

Yes, even in 2014 your power was so scared when you got into three boilers, and with such radars and missiles you will probably explode right on the spot without any boilers! What a fear, yeast yeast))))

[Mayak-SH-7]

This is when you fought with the lying and unarmed in 2014? You would still be at war with the sleeping I still wonder why you didn’t attack the whole of Russia.

[Sky strike fighter]

This is when you fought with the lying and unarmed in 2014?

Are you lying and unarmed? Was it someone who fought with you in 2014? It seemed to you. The rash of grass is fun. I also want to laugh. And see dreams in reality, which you are telling us fun.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

This is when you fought with the lying and unarmed in 2014?

So here is the thing! They were unarmed and lying under Ilovaisk! And then still under Debaltseve too! And I thought what it was, opened my eyes ...

[Sky strike fighter]

scared?

Well, of course. I’m trembling right under the bed. Zelensky doesn’t need to be included here.

Naturally, I added TTX from the Ukrainian 3D radar 80K6T

It's like adding on the fence. Naturally this is another nonsense. Write at least 8D.

Well, since you are a downed pilot, then you have nothing to fear

You can speak anything with a tongue, but I’m not a downed pilot, you see, you didn’t serve in the Ukrainian Air Force in 2014. They say that through one all the pilots were shot down (every second). So do not confuse me with your downed ones.
Why should I be afraid? Let those who will be behind this radar be afraid. An anti-radar missile can fly by accident.

[Mayak-SH-7]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

An anti-radar missile can fly by accident.

but you will not see it in your life, nor will you see the answer

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

An anti-radar missile can fly by accident.

but you will not see it in your life, nor will you see the answer

All the same, sprinkle the grass. Your health is sausage. You have so much fun. Are you now a Jedi or Zelensky again?

[Zementbomber]

I’m not a downed pilot, you see, did not serve in the Ukrainian Air Force in 2014. There they say through one all the pilots were shot down (every second). Moreover, the Americans say so.

Even the "monthly informational" analytical "magazine of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation" Foreign Military Review "- for some reason gives much, much more modest figures ...

[Sky strike fighter]

Too shy.

[Zementbomber]

were the press services of the "DPR" army and "LPR people's militia" also "modest"?

[Avior]

Zoo on the Spark do from Soviet times

[Lopatov]

Quote: Mayak-SH-7

Serial production of domestic Zoo-3 counter-battery radars has begun in Ukraine

This is just a shame for the Ukrainian military-industrial complex ..
And so the low-mobility "Zoo-2" turned into a complete UG

Would make immediately stationary

[Zementbomber]

He was not supposed to be "super mobile". For it was assigned to work in conjunction with the OABR and Oreabr OK (army and frontline artillery in your opinion).

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

He was not supposed to be "super mobile". ...

So that the enemy quickly calculated it with the help of RTR and destroyed it?
Then the military will have to buy a new one?
Reasonable.
Well done.

[Zementbomber]

If we put aside the scoffing - the RLAR complex and should not be more mobile than the artillery systems that it provides with data. So, taking into account the fact that we have OK in the OBR, it is still in work, incl. and "Hyacinths-B" equipped with wheeled tractors ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

If we put aside the scoffing - the RLAR complex and should not be more mobile than the artillery systems that it provides with data. So, taking into account the fact that we have OK in the OBR, it is still in work, incl. and "Hyacinths-B" equipped with wheeled tractors ...

In fact, old guns cannot be calculated using RTR

There is another cargocult.
We looked at the relatively cheap half-stations that they bought for use in Afghanistan for C-RAM. And they decided to do exactly the same.

Absolutely not thinking that such radars
a) do not need mobility.
b) will be written off on withdrawal from Afghanistan due to the development of the resource. For they have been working continuously for years.

[Zementbomber]

old guns cannot be calculated using rtr

РТR - and no. And here is PЛR - and even very yes. According to the trajectory calculation.

[Lopatov]

And mushrooms can be detected visually.
However, this does not cancel out that fact. that the counter-battery radar must be mobile enough to not be destroyed long before the guns are detected

[Zementbomber]

One more time: the degree of vulnerability of the RLAR complex - it is quite enough to have at the level of the degree of vulnerability of the artillery systems serviced by it on battery OP.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Zementbomber

Once again: the degree of vulnerability of the RLAR complex is quite sufficient to have at the level of the degree of vulnerability of the artillery systems it serves on battery OP.

Once again, this is nonsense.
Because the radar is forced to emit constantly.
And the firing units allocated for counter-battery fire begin to fire only upon obtaining target designation. And only after that can be detected.

[Zementbomber]

this is nonsense.
Because the radar is forced to emit constantly.

But this statement is really "nonsense".

[Mountain shooter]

There was a note recently that the plant for the production of rocket fuel for solid-propellant missiles went bankrupt. In Ukraine. Only. And how to organize the mass production of these "Alders" now? Anything in general ... Rocket. So you have to think about it. Does the right hand not know what the left is doing?

[voyaka uh]

Bankrupt, does not mean - stopped.
In bankruptcy, debts are written off and the owner changes.
The new owner can find an investor and start the plant in a new way.

[Albert1988]

Quote: voyaka uh

The new owner can find an investor and start the plant in a new way.

That is, to sell the plant for needles or convert it to shampoo production?

[voyaka uh]

Why? For missiles - demand, and fuel for them - respectively, demand.
Turks, for example, will buy the plant with great pleasure. Missiles are joint.
The Turks supply electronic components for them.
The Chinese will buy without hesitation.

[Albert1988]

Quote: voyaka uh

Turks, for example, will buy the plant with great pleasure.

Why do Turks need this plant? they need to sell their products, not buy someone else's. Why would the Chinese buy it? Ackte! The Chinese have dozens of such factories! The Chinese, if they only buy some documentation and also "buy" specialists - they are masters, they have already "bought" half of the Antonov engineers
And with the plant it may well be like with the Nikolaev shipbuilding plants - they have been bought and now the "new owner" there is letting slipways for scrap ...

[voyaka uh]

I don’t know ... The Turks helped restore the Ukrainian military industry.
Modern machines, equipment, electronics. Guidance missiles.
All production of shells. So it’s beneficial for them.
The Chinese are buying up and rebuilding military factories willingly.
Often in exchange for all sorts of long-term benefits in trade.

[Albert1988]

Quote: voyaka uh

I don’t know ... The Turks helped restore the Ukrainian military industry.

Restore - are you kidding? The military industry of Ukraine, according to the results, fell completely below the baseboard on which it was ...

Quote: voyaka uh

Modern machines, equipment, electronics.

Do not be ridiculous - equipment for the production of "shells", which then explode in warehouses? And they still can't produce cartridges like that ...
That is, the supply of Turkish UAV components to Ukraine for screwdriver assembly is a "restoration of the military-industrial complex" ...

Quote: voyaka uh

The Chinese are buying up and rebuilding military factories willingly.
Often in exchange for all sorts of long-term benefits in trade.

The Chinese are buying up military factories only to take them to their homes or to get finished goods for themselves at bargain prices.
And yes - China has already invested in Ukraine, no longer wants ...

[voyaka uh]

We have different sources of information.
It was nice to exchange views

[Albert1988]

Quote: voyaka uh

We have different sources of information.

You may have the same source as mine - read carefully, then note that the "new" Ukrainian missiles somehow suddenly turn out to be just a small alteration of the old Soviet ones, the "new" drones are copies of Turkish ones, but in production ammunition from something abandoned the Soviet standards for the safety of finished products ...
So think ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: voyaka uh

We have different sources of information.

Do you have the Ukrainian press?

[Oquzyurd]

He has no source, or rather, a source by name - blind hatred.

[Sky strike fighter]

Quote: Oquzyurd

He has no source, or rather, a source by name - blind hatred.

Interesting to whom and for what?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Oquzyurd

there is no source, or rather, there is a source by name - blind hatred.

Maybe you don’t, but again, you may have blind hatred.
But I am corny - I carefully read all the news. including those that are issued in the Ukrainian press, as well as maintaining contacts with friends in Ukraine.

[Oquzyurd]

example: "missiles somehow suddenly turn out to be just a small alteration of the old Soviet," new "" Is your phrase to say that the former countries do not have the right to engage in alteration of Soviet technology? Don't they do the same in Russia? Why do others consider it a big disadvantage? Your posts therefore creates the feeling that you are extremely impartial.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Oquzyurd

example: “rockets somehow suddenly turn out to be just a small alteration of the old Soviet ones,“ new ”ones.” Is your phrase saying that former countries do not have the right to engage in alteration of Soviet equipment?

My phrase says that some countries are loudly shouting about fundamentally new developments, in the end it turns out that "a fundamentally new development" is an old Soviet rocket without changes, to which the GOS from another old rocket was attached without changes and somehow taught to fly.
And yes - everyone has the right to develop the Soviet backlog. to whom he got, but not everyone can - here Belarus, for example, can and does, and Ukraine has plundered / sold all the huge potential.

Quote: Oquzyurd

Why do you think this is a big minus for others?

I do not think this is a big minus, the conversation was that the most powerful military-industrial complex of Ukraine, inherited from the USSR and which could give a head start to the Russian military-industrial complex, is de facto dead and decomposing, as if some would not like to present the situation back.

[Oquzyurd]

"Belarus, for example, can and does, but Ukraine has stolen / sold out its huge potential." These countries chose different paths of life, some continued the same, the other at least tried a different one. This is such a thing that whoever wins in the end will show life. Any country that goes through difficult shocks, then revives for the better side of development. I always compare Ukraine with my homeland, Azerbaijan. The fact that they have been in chaos for the last 10 years, we went through such a state in Azerbaijan even earlier, from 1988 to 2005 (the collapse of everything and a gradual recovery), that is, within 16-17 years They later plunged into chaos and later will come out of it. According to the logic of Azerbaijan, somewhere they will start to come in themselves after 2025 and beyond.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Oquzyurd

These countries have chosen different ways of life, some continued the former, the other at least tried a different one.

Oh how you, dear, are mistaken!
There is no "former" life in Belarus, only a semblance, but, nevertheless, there is a living industry and live agriculture in Belarus.
In what "win" Ukraine turned out to be - we see that the economy is below the plinth, worse than in Russia in 98th, the industry has died (Antonov is dead, Kharkiv is almost dead, Yuzhmash is on the verge, Nikolaev has already been put in a coffin and nails are being hammered, and many more what a sad).

Quote: Oquzyurd

Any country that goes through complex shocks then comes to life for the better.

Or it falls apart completely, there are a lot of examples, and the second, unfortunately, more, I eat the first ...

Quote: Oquzyurd

I always compare the difficulties of Ukraine with my homeland, Azerbaijan.

There is one problem - comparing a sea ship with an airplane is not a good idea ...

Quote: Oquzyurd

The fact that they are in chaos over the past 10 years

Ahem, they’ve been in chaos for the past 25 years ... In a gradually growing chaos, which culminated in the second Maidan of 2013-14, and Maidan 2004 was the first alarm bell as a manifestation of the disease, the second is already a serious crisis, and now the patient in coma...

Quote: Oquzyurd

we passed such a state in Azerbaijan even earlier, from 1988 to 2005 (the collapse of everything and a gradual restoration), that is, for 16-17 years.

Tell me, please, how much oil is in Ukraine?

Quote: Oquzyurd

They later plunged into chaos and later emerged from this. According to the logic of Azerbaijan, somewhere they will begin to come to their senses after 2025 and beyond.

And here are a couple of questions - when did Azerbaijan thoroughly quarrel with Russia? So that absolutely? How many times has power changed in Azerbaijan during this period, with each next power taking a new vector of politics?

I have good friends, immigrants from Azerbaijan - from Baku, they now maintain close contacts with their Baku friends. By the way, he himself wanted to go to May in Baku - but it’s not destiny this year, it’s nothing - I’ll try next year to drive there by car.
So I have an idea of ​​what is happening in Azerbaijan. Your situation is stable, there is no political vacillation, the economy is fed in the form of oil, there is no systematic plundering of everything and everyone. Poor Ukraine has been ransacked since independence. I will give you an example - in the 90s Ukraine lived excellently, even from Russia they went to Ukraine to buy, in the early 2000s Ukraine was already living on a par with Russia, and after the first Maidan, the standard of living in Ukraine began to fall, now it is much lower than in Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. And all why? because the Soviet legacy has been plundered, nothing new is being built. It's no joke - when Russia "unaxed-ay-ay-ay" Crimea - it turned out that on the peninsula, with the exception of the private villas of the oligarchs, not a single new facility was built! Generally! For almost 25 years!
These are the pies in Ukraine!

[Sky strike fighter]

Turks, for example, will buy the plant with great pleasure. Missiles are joint.

The Turks already have their own MLRS in Turkey for 40 km and 120 km, why should they buy the same thing, but from someone?

The Turks supply electronic components for them.

Selling their products to Ukraine. Well done.

The Chinese will buy without hesitation.

The Chinese are figs? They have their own mass-produced MLRS and 200 km and 300 km.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

mass-produced MLRS and 200 km and 300 km.

400 km WS-2D
And it all started with the help of Russian specialists from "Splav"

[Lopatov]

Quote: voyaka uh

The Chinese will buy without hesitation.

The Chinese in this segment overtook Ukraine very far. They don’t need to buy anything.

[Peter is not the first]

We would like the first, the Pavlodar chemical plant on pins and needles, well, the second can be repurposed for the production of shampoo, but it is more likely that what "warrior uh" wrote, that the debts will be written off, and the black pastor will again force death.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Peter is not the first

that they will write off the debts, and the black pastor will again make death do.

In modern Ukraine? I very much smudge, although there is an option. that they will drive products for export.

[Sky strike fighter]

Who? Who is waiting for them with their MLRS?

[Albert1988]

Quote: Sky Strike fighter

Who? Who is waiting for them with their MLRS?

Not with MLRS, but with rocket fuel ...
Although, again - there the quality of the products is such that I agree - few will take ...

[Zementbomber]

Well, that - according to the recipe and technology - mixed TPT from PCP - in reality, even the American one is covered.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, that - according to the recipe and technology - mixed TPT from PCP - in reality, even the American one is covered.

This is if the technology is respected, and not as with cases from armored personnel carriers

[Zementbomber]

BTR cases were made by other factories. So far, there have been no complaints about the PCP products. And for foreign customers, too.
To draw conclusions on the basis of the BTR-4 epic about the degree of conditionality of TRT is just as ridiculous as to draw conclusions about the state of Russian strategic missile forces based on the fact that you have a worthless ocean surface fleet. No connection.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

BTR cases were made by other factories. So far, there have been no complaints about the PCP products. And for foreign customers, too.
To draw conclusions on the basis of the BTR-4 epic about the degree of conditionality of TRT is just as ridiculous as to draw conclusions about the state of Russian strategic missile forces based on the fact that you have a worthless ocean surface fleet. No connection.

Well, how can I say - marriage went on once with Motor Sich (I myself spoke with a worker at a helicopter plant in Rostov), ​​there is a complete seam in BTT production - the crisis is systemic, that’s the problem, and the funding was cut off ...

[Zementbomber]

with Motor Sich marriage went through time

Nevertheless, you carefully continue to buy its products. And foreign customers of your turntables still stubbornly prefer to equip them with "Sich" engines. Surprising - right?
And there really is a crisis in the armored industry of Ukraine. But the reasons are not a lack of funding. That any troubles can be cured with a bag of dough - just the standard cry of this dough of "assimilators" - no more. The experience of the military-industrial complex of Russia itself in the XNUMXst century is a guarantee. And the experience of the US military-industrial complex confirms this.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Nevertheless - you neatly continue to buy its products.

Do not tell me - what continue to buy? Firstly, Ukraine banned all supplies, secondly, enterprises located in the Lugansk region simply moved to Rostov ... And there is another collinkor ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But the crisis in the armored industry of Ukraine - really is. But the reason there is not a lack of funding.

And including also - against the backdrop of a huge systemic crisis, there is still no money for the temple and is not expected ...

Quote: Zementbomber

That any troubles can be cured with a bag of dough - just the standard cry of this dough of "assimilators" - no more.

here I agree. A bag of life-giving cots should also be attached to the bag of babala for guidance, or in general - a new guide. which rummages in a subject))))

Quote: Zementbomber

The experience of the military-industrial complex of Russia itself in the XNUMXst century is a guarantee.

The military-industrial complex of Russia, by the way, still received a lot of dough from the state after 2008 - according to my dad, who worked in this cloud of time in this military industrial complex and only retired in 2018 ...
Of course, a significant part was mastered by "effective (no) managers", but still the funding revived it a lot ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And the experience of the US military-industrial complex confirms this.

Amers have another problem - there the defense industry is primarily a commercial product, and the manufacturer’s lobby always tries to raise prices.
The same F-35 is bad not because it flies and shoots badly, but because it costs too much for its characteristics ...

[Zementbomber]

Do not tell me - what continue to buy? Firstly, Ukraine banned all supplies, secondly, enterprises located in the Lugansk region simply moved to Rostov ... And there is another collinkor ...

"Make fun" in this case - you. It was for "MS", not for "enterprises of the Lugansk region." Engines "MS" - still go to your factories in the hundreds. Through the customers of your export turntables (formally, in this case, they buy the engines and deliver them to Russia) and through "gasket firms". + dviglokomplektuha goes. Incl. and through Snezhnoe. Last year, even the VKS Air Force bought a pair of D-18T-3s from Boguslaev. EMNIS, via Bulgaria. "Klimov" with its VK-2500 is not yet able to completely replace the "MC". Even in your home market. It does not provide the required volumes. And D-136, D-436 and D-18T-3 - it is generally unknown when the alternative will appear. With the replacement of the latter - "Kuznetsov" has a full epic-fail.

And including also - against the backdrop of a huge systemic crisis, there is still no money for the temple and is not expected ...

Really - depending on who really. A number of armored personnel carriers - quite and quite well "feel" themselves.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"Make fun" in this case - you. It was for "MS", and not for "enterprises of the Lugansk region." Engines "MS" - still go to your factories in the hundreds. Through the customers of your export turntables

And you can’t imagine how much marriage there is then caught .. Personally, I said to the factory employee who put these engines back in 2014)))

Quote: Zementbomber

"Klimov" with its VK-2500 is not yet able to completely replace the "MC". Even in your home market. It does not provide the required volumes. And D-136, D-436 and D-18T-3 - it is generally unknown when the alternative will appear. With the replacement of the latter - "Kuznetsov" has a full epic-fail.

This is where infa? From the Ukrainian press?

Quote: Zementbomber

Really - depending on who really. A number of armored personnel carriers - quite and quite well "feel" themselves.

It is precisely that "some", or rather, very few ...

[Zementbomber]

And you can’t imagine how much marriage there is then caught .. Personally, I said to the factory employee who put these engines back in 2014)))

And why then the importers of your turntables ignore your "cool import-substituting" engines by almost 100%?

This is where infa? From the Ukrainian press?

Data on TVaD production volumes at Klimovo are known. Data on the production of turntables by Russian Helicopters is not only known, but even advertised. Spare engine standard is known. Next - a problem on elementary arithmetic from the primary school course. And this is without taking into account the remotorization of the existing fleet.
It is also known (from your officials) that PD-8 and PD-12V do not yet exist in nature. Well, and the fact that "Kuznetsov" sharply fell silent about the NK-23D. - is also eloquent. How eloquent is the fact that the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in January-February 2019 bought through the Bulgarian (Varna) "gasket" TNB "Magistral" LLC four pieces. D-18T-3 at "MS" in the amount of 8.035 million USD excluding the cost of transportation, customs costs and intermediary services.

It is precisely that "some", or rather, very few ...

Well, we never had an "over to fig" BTRZ. But by the way - even their available quantity is redundant.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

And why then the importers of your turntables ignore your "cool import-substituting" engines by almost 100%?

And who said that they ignore them? So that they buy them, it is necessary that they can produce more than we need for ourselves, but with that, yes - byad, we provide ourselves, but for export there is a problem.

Quote: Zementbomber

Data on TVaD production volumes at Klimovo are known. The data on the production of turntables by Russian Helicopters is not only known, but even advertised.

That is, you believe the data presented in the open press regarding the defense ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, we never had an "over to fig" BTRZ. But by the way - even their available quantity is excessive.

This gives the impression that the entire industry is highly "redundant" ...

[Zementbomber]

That is, you believe the data presented in the open press regarding the defense ...

It depends on how and where it is published. Tu-160M2 production volumes for example - it is impossible to falsify in the current conditions. And yes - some of these are given - I have the ability to check on "duplicate channels" (let's say). Russia in terms of opportunities for intelligence penetration is now a very transparent country in fact. No matter how important your chubby cheeks are, your boys from the TFR and SEB.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

It depends on how and where it is published. Tu-160M2 production volumes for example - it is impossible to falsify in the current conditions.

It will be easy to understand how many of them are produced, because all satellites will see such a bird at a roll-out, but, say, how many individual components are produced? Even how many of the same fittings are produced - you can completely hide it. Moreover, the Russian "import substitutes" are for the most part a copy of the same Ukrainian products, and in this case the issue of copyright may arise. From that, by the way, Russian engines go to helicopters only within Russia, and for export - only with Ukrainian ones - we will put ours, which are exactly the same, only produced here - the courts will be ...
Well and how transparent Russia is - judge by the same fittings - which no one expected in 2015 at the parade, they say there are none and that’s all ... But it’s op-pa ...

Quote: Zementbomber

No matter how puffy cheeks are inflated, your boys from SKR and SEB are important.

Again - our boys are not in vain eating bread, but the javelins in the ATO / OOS zone are not used for very suspicious reasons ...

[Zementbomber]

but, let’s say, how many individual components are produced?

This is not always important in reality. Accurate (accurate to pieces) ) production volumes of rivets from duralumin - you can afford and not know.

Even how many of the same valves are made - it is possible to hide completely.

With an error of + - 5-10 pcs. - certainly yes. With an error of 2 times - and no. From the intelligence of NATO and China in cr. least.

Russian "import substitutes" are mostly copies of the same Ukrainian products, and in this case the issue of copyright may arise. From that, by the way, Russian engines go to helicopters only within Russia, and for export - only with Ukrainian ones - we will put ours, which are exactly the same, only produced here - the courts will be ...

Sorry, but this is Bullshit. On TV2-117, TV3-117, VK-2500 - "Klimov" and DARZ RF - have the same rights as "MS". Except for SBM version models. If only because "Klimov" is their developer VAAAPCheto.
And Russian TVaD is being exported. Iraq bought your turntables with Klimovsk engines. The reason for the vanishingly small export volumes of "cloth-thin" TVaDs is the relatively small volumes of their production, which still do not cover even domestic needs + significantly lower resources and lower reliability at a significantly higher cost of supply and support in operation. + add that "MC" has a more powerful and efficient global software service and a significant reputation advantage (even within Russia itself).

Well and how transparent Russia is - judge by the same fittings - which no one expected in 2015 at the parade, they say there are none and that’s all ... But it’s op-pa ...

They were not expected at the parade. Feel the difference. And even then - from the third decade of March, some who were already waiting for them at the parade. And why the press was not leaked this information in advance - I do not know. In such organizations, even their chiefs and the heads of their states - not all doors "open with their feet." And I am only a modest junior lieutenant in the reserve, who never rose above the assistant to the people's deputy and the deputy advisor. Minister of Defense in a far from "first-ranking" power.

Again - our boys are not in vain eating bread, but the javelins in the ATO / OOS zone are not used for very suspicious reasons ...

The reason is more than known - the purely political decision of the President of the United States imposed on him by Congress (for purely political reasons) and reflected in the terms of the Supply Agreement.
And your "boys" ... Not that they are useless by 146% ... But their real effectiveness in accounting for the resources spent on their system. If some lieutenant colonel not only had acc. track record, but also understood in the items that appear in his record (and most importantly, he paid due attention to these items) - he would have to ring all the bells, indicatively flog blue stripes, and even cut out some under the guise of self-sawing. But - "It doesn't matter - be! Be able to - be known!" (from)

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

With an error of + - 5-10 pcs. - certainly yes. With an error of 2 times - and no. From the intelligence of NATO and China in cr. least.

But this is also a question, because there were even some specialists who didn’t know about the fact that Armats went into production in 2015. who took part in their development at Uraltransmash ...

Quote: Zementbomber

They were not expected at the parade.

No, they were not expected at all, stating that they simply are not in nature, because there are 2-3 test samples, and at the parade, 7 T-14 and T-15 machines took part in the preparation ...

Quote: Zementbomber

The reason is more than known - the purely political decision of the President of the United States imposed on him by Congress (for purely political reasons) and reflected in the terms of the Supply Agreement.

And why was this "imposed" on him? What are the reasons? And simple ones - considering HOW MANY weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine somehow magically ended up at the "separatists" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And your "boys" ... Not that they are useless by 146% ... But their real effectiveness in accounting for the resources spent on their system. If some lieutenant colonel not only had acc. track record, but he also understood the subjects appearing in his track record (and most importantly, he paid due attention to these items) - he would have to ring all the bells, indicatively flog blue stripes, and even cut out some under the guise of self-sawing. But - "It doesn't matter - be! Be able to - be known!" (from)

Mmmmmm, so are you. I look, they are well aware of the situation in the intelligence structures of the Russian Federation .... Although, yes, where are ours to yours - who are regularly "legions of the Buryat equestrian and diving armored infantry" find in Donbas ...

[Zementbomber]

But this is also a question, because there were even some specialists who didn’t know about the fact that Armats went into production in 2015. who took part in their development at Uraltransmash ...

This information is not received from specialist developers (even non-ordinary). And with levels more serious.

No, they were not expected at all, stating that they simply are not in nature, because there are 2-3 test samples, and at the parade, 7 T-14 and T-15 machines took part in the preparation ...

The first infa about the decision to make an installation batch of platforms - was in the National Intelligence just four days after this decision was made. But there they really allowed a slap — they took her for disinformation and even decided that the source was now under control. But already about a month and a half before the parade - everything fell into place.

And why was this "imposed" on him? What are the reasons? And simple ones - considering HOW MANY weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine somehow magically ended up at the "separatists" ...

Well - the weapons of the Separs themselves (and not only the Separs themselves ) did us pretty well too. Up to equipping them with entire companies and even battalions. And also often - precisely "magically". Yes, and the T-72B3 too (advertised as "captured in a stubborn battle", but everything was either more interesting, or vice versa - more prosaic - that's how you look at it ). And "jav" is not really a secret. Moreover, you already have it. Even several sets. We got through Syria and / or Iraq. So there is only Big Politics. Moreover, it is purely American.

Mmmmmm, so you. I look, are well aware of the situation in the intelligence departments of the Russian Federation ....

In "reconnaissance" - and no. But in "counterreconnaissance - "- a little bit and yes.
The systemic problem of your counterintelligence is that if it cannot solve the problem, it pretends that it does not exist. What is one "widely known in a narrow circle" "The list of terrorist and extremist organizations and groups, information about the activities of which on the territory of the Russian Federation and friendly countries, as well as the very fact of whose existence, is not allowed to be distributed through the Russian media and in the .ru, .рф and .su domains."

Although yes, where are ours to yours - which are regularly "legions of the Buryat equestrian and diving armored infantry" in the Donbass find ...

Through thoughtlessness or deliberately, you mix public reports made (not in the best way by the way) by special propaganda agencies with ritual references to "competent sources" and real intelligence reports.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

This information is not received from specialist developers (even non-ordinary). And with levels more serious.

If these levels are sold in the same way as in Ukraine, then yes

Quote: Zementbomber

The first infa about the decision to make an installation batch of platforms - was in the National Intelligence just four days after this decision was made. But there they really allowed a slap — they took her for disinformation and even decided that the source was now under control. But already about a month and a half before the parade - everything fell into place.

Whose national intelligence? And then - if they mistook for disa, then what? Either analysts in the neck, or sources so-so ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, the weapons of the separatists themselves (and not only the separatists themselves) also came to us pretty well. Up to equipping them with whole companies and even battalions. And also often - precisely "magically". Yes, and the T-72B3 too (advertised as "captured in a stubborn battle", but everything was either more interesting, or vice versa - more prosaic - that's how you look at it).

I know it perfectly))) In a civil war, it is different and never happens ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And "jav" is not really a secret. Moreover - you already have it. Even several sets. We got through Syria and / or Iraq.

And I also know this - and not a few, but almost 10 pieces - were taken in Syria a couple of years ago, when they covered a large springboard for pregnant bearded children, there even on photos the Javiks lit up among the trophies. so brand new, in drawers)))

Quote: Zementbomber

So here is only Big Politics. And - purely intra-American.

Well, yes - because when the newspapers trumpet that the "knights of the swithl" are selling American aid to the "separatists", such a rise will arise that image losses will block all possible advantages ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But in "kontrrazved-" - still a little and yes.
The systemic problem of your counterintelligence is that if it cannot solve the problem, it pretends that it does not exist. What is one "widely known in a narrow circle"

Well, yes, I will assume that you and the Russian counter-intelligence officers were drinking "for brotherhood" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Through thoughtlessness or deliberately, you mix public reports made (not in the best way by the way) by special propaganda agencies with ritual references to "competent sources" and real intelligence reports.

Then where is the same "irrefutable evidence" of how Russia is transferring weapons across the border to the "separatists"? Something until now there is nothing, although the supply is going on))))

[Zementbomber]

If these levels are sold in the same way as in Ukraine, then yes wink

So they are sold exactly the same with you - only the dachshund is higher.

Whose national intelligence? And then - if they mistook for disa, then what? Either analysts in the neck, or sources so-so ...

US National Intelligence is reasonable. And yes - to a number of ladies and gentlemen - the necks were then "lathered" a little.

Well, yes - because when the newspapers trumpet that the "knights of the swithl" are selling American aid to the "separatists", such a rise will arise that image losses will block all possible advantages ...

If this were the case, our US AMRs would not have made it to the front line either. This is almost a more exclusive weapon than the Jav now, all the more.

Well, yes, I will assume that you and the Russian counter-intelligence officers were drinking "for brotherhood" ...

Simple - they not Russian. The rest is generally true.

Then where is the same "irrefutable evidence" of how Russia is transferring weapons across the border to the "separatists"? Something until now there is nothing, although the supply is going on))))

Just go out - using GugOleM Almighty and auto-translators - to the circle of Russian information washes - and you will discover what is well known since late summer 2014 urbi et orbi ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

So they are sold exactly the same with you - only the dachshund is higher.

Do not judge by yourself ...

Quote: Zementbomber

US National Intelligence is reasonable. And yes - to a number of ladies and gentlemen - the necks were then "lathered" a little.

And after that you say something there ...

Quote: Zementbomber

If this were the case, our US AMRs would not have made it to the front line either. This is almost a more exclusive weapon than the Jav now, all the more.

If the weapon is "exclusive" - ​​then it will be protected more or less, but if not ....

Quote: Zementbomber

Simply, they are not Russian. The rest is generally true.

Oha))) By NOT Russian, we judge Russian)))) Well, yes, well, yes, it's like fantasies about a "strike on Moscow", maybe you will also dream about nuclear weapons?

Quote: Zementbomber

Just go out - using GugOleM Almighty and auto-translators - to the circle of Russian information washes - and you will discover what is well known since late summer 2014 urbi et orbi ...

You would think that no one looked there)))) They didn’t show anything besides the assumptions and fortune-telling))))

[Zementbomber]

Do not judge by yourself ...

This is not my opinion. And the Americans.

And after that you say something there ...

Yes talking. Something is wrong?

If the weapon is "exclusive" - ​​then it will be protected more or less, but if not ....

Illiterate (albeit "pseudo-obvious") conclusion.

Oha))) By NOT Russian, we judge Russian)))) Well, yes, well, yes, it's like fantasies about a "strike on Moscow", maybe you will also dream about nuclear weapons?

Both FSB officers and SBU officers - all from the uniform of the KGB. Only the SBU officers - still not so degraded, even in comparison with the very low level of the KGB, as the FSB officers. Therefore, it is quite possible to form an idea here.
And yes - a bomb attack on Moscow, this is by no means a fantasy, but a very real possibility. Moreover, it is quite easy to implement. But you are of course free to live in your Dream World ...

You would think that no one looked there)))) They didn’t show anything besides the assumptions and fortune-telling))))

The opinion of the Russians in this matter is of zero value. The world learned the facts, the evidence of their authenticity - accepted, conclusions - made, practical actions acc. with these conclusions - it carries out. And what do you think about it - it is interesting only for the curiosity and for the sake of trolling. Welcome to IRL!

[Zementbomber]

and the black pastor will make death again

They will "make death" even after the death of the "Bloody" Pastor. It's a craft. "Oboronka" in common parlance in the former Soviet Union is called. According to reliable data, it has existed in the World since the Copper-Stone Age.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

They will “make death” even after the death of the “Bloody“ Pastor. ”This is the craft.“ Defense ”in common parlance in the former Soviet Union is called. According to reliable data, it has existed in the World since the Copper-Stone Age.

Oga, Nikolaev builds so many warships! And Antonov, Antonov rides hundreds of military planes a year! And in Kharkov, tanks are baked by the thousands, thousands by the thousands!

[Zementbomber]

They do not build, do not rivet, and do not bake. The ships are really epic fail, but the products of "Antonov" and "thousands of new tanks" (and even dozens) are not needed by the Military Organization of Ukraine, well, at all.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

With ships really epic fail,

This epic fail has existed for 30 years as an "independent" Ukraine ...

Quote: Zementbomber

but the products of "Antonov"

yes, no need, planes, who needs them at all? And if you don’t need it - right, we’ll ditch what it is for, this Antonov?

Quote: Zementbomber

and "thousands of new tanks" (and even dozens) are not needed by the Military Organization of Ukraine, well, absolutely.

Also, self-propelled guns are not needed (in eastern Europe they buy used vehicles), ammunition is not needed - again, most of eastern Europe comes from storages ...
In an amicable way, the "organization" of modern Ukraine does not need anything at all, except for the races in the squares, so that serious people can master and dump all the rest for this business (Yatsenyuk has already dumped as the smartest in this party).

[Zementbomber]

You are making a very common mistake of the Russians in projecting onto Ukraine the position and prospects of Russia itself. You can believe it, you can not believe it, you can - check it - but our situation is not so bad and hopeless as in the state of the "elder" "brother". Although Ukraine has problems - of course, "the carriage and the cart of bogies from above". Incl. and very serious problems. And not all of them are caused by external factors. We also have a lot of bio-waste. And his position among our elites is also strong. Although bio-waste in our country still does not dominate the society and elites as completely as you do.
Now in fact:
We need planes, of course. And helicopters. And the UAV. The problem is that it is Antonov
... - I have never developed and produced exactly that range of aircraft, new products from which it was advisable for us to acquire starting from 1992 and it will be advisable to acquire in some foreseeable future. "Antonov" turned away from the new realities of life until life itself, as expected, turned away from him. "The end is a little predictable" (C) Alas.
SPGs are needed. And the purchase of "Carnations" at a price of less than 100 thousand USD apiece is still a good deal.
And ammunition ... - it depends on the specific assortment. We have types of ammunition, the stocks of which - even eat some booty - we don’t know where. And there are - which are not just in acute, but in severe deficit.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

You are committing a very common Russian mistake by projecting the position and prospects of Russia itself onto Ukraine. You can believe it, you can not believe it, you can - check it - but our situation is not so bad and hopeless as in the state of the "elder" "brother".

You know, after such words I laugh with laughter, because in Russia there are problems, but in Ukraine it’s the end ... It's just the end, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and only in the case of a magic turn back to Russia, which is modern Ukrainian the elite will never do, because it is 100% dependent on external governance. Rather, most Ukrainian citizens will simply receive Russian citizenship, and this procedure has been simplified ...

Quote: Zementbomber

We also have a lot of biomass. And his position among our elites is also strong. Although the biomass in our country is still not so dominant in society and the elites, as in yours.

Uvavzhayuschiysya, if in the elites of Russia "biomass" dominates, then in the elites of Ukraine everything is one-word - there is only one biomass, refined ...

Quote: Zementbomber

We need planes, of course. And helicopters. And the UAV. The problem is that it is Antonov
... - I have never developed and produced exactly that range of aircraft, new products from which it was advisable for us to acquire starting from 1992 and it will be advisable to acquire in some foreseeable future. "Antonov" turned away from the new realities of life until life itself, as expected, turned away from him. "The end is a little predictable" (c) Alas.

That is, selling high-tech products abroad, where they are in great demand, is not an option? Well, a typical khutoryan-Selyuk consciousness, typical, alas ... Well, nothing - if Antonov finally accumulates, then it will be easier for Russia with all sorts of copyrights when producing Ruslans and similar equipment at home.

Quote: Zementbomber

And the purchase of "Carnations" for less than 100 thousand USD apiece is still a good deal.

Given that such equipment can be produced in Ukraine in large quantities? And then for 100k bucks - it depends on what kind of garbage they sold ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And ammunition ... - it depends on the specific assortment. We have types of ammunition, the stocks of which - even eat some booty - we don’t know where. And there are - which are not just in acute, but in severe deficit.

Namely, especially considering the burning Ukrainian warehouses, which are blazing stronger than the Siberian forests in the hot summer, the ammunition from which later magically materializes in third countries ...
And most importantly, Ukraine possessed the competencies for the production of all types of ammunition, and now it’s not even able to produce Kalash cartridges ...

Py.Sy: you wrote that not all Ukrainian problems are caused by external factors - and so, 99,999% of Ukrainian problems are caused exclusively by internal factors ... Because if you constantly ride, Maidan and de-communize everything instead of working and blaming in everything "klyaty mo ...... liv", instead of thinking about what is wrong with us, you can find yourself at the broken everything, as modern Ukraine turned out to be ...

[Zementbomber]

You know, after such words I laugh with laughter, because in Russia there are problems, but in Ukraine it’s the end ... It’s just the end, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and only in the case of a magic turn back to Russia, which is modern Ukrainian the elite will never do, because it is 100% dependent on external governance.

This "end" has been predicted for us since at least 1993. And he still cannot come. And our elites ... It was your policy: "we will not allow anyone to trade our Russianness." Well OK, our elites said - since you are such quick boys - we are "intruding" antiIs Russianness a problem in kind? And so it turned out what happened ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

We have been predicting this "end" since 1993 at least.

Then he was predicted, but the potential was huge ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But he still cannot come.

This is how the Soviet foundation was stolen ... that is, the heavy legacy of the bloody scoop was pre-communized, and so it came ...

Quote: Zementbomber

It was yours policy: "we will not allow anyone to trade our Russianness."

Og, again, everything can be blamed for me! The Russian elites had to put a bolt on everything, the main thing is to divide the loot inside the country! But Mykola had to explain why he was not brother to Nicholas and should live in a separate country - that’s what they got from the caches of those who wear pig-like ears on German-style cartridges ...

[Zementbomber]

This is how the Soviet foundation was stolen ... that is, the heavy legacy of the bloody scoop was pre-communized, and so it came ...

So humor of joke is that "the end has come" only in the imagination of Russians.

Og, again, everything can be blamed for me!

But what has "to blame." You were simply replaced by other service customers. Delov something. You are guilty here only in the sense of "punished yourself."

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

So humor of joke is that "the end has come" only in the imagination of Russians.

Alas, it came really, like the fact that Ukraine is now the poorest country in Europe ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But what has "to blame." You were simply replaced by other service customers. Delov something. You are guilty here only in the sense of "punished yourself."

Which customers? And what services? if those who provide ladies with low social responsibility, then yes, replaced, successfully

[Zementbomber]

Alas, it came really, like the fact that Ukraine is now the poorest country in Europe ...

KMK, if "the end came really" - most people in the country would notice it ...
And of course - Ukraine - not "the poorest country in Europe". Although our median standard of living "by European standards" is quite low. And even nominally lower than in Russia (although if we compare the average regional center and the village of our countries outside the capital regions, then the picture is probably more in our favor ).

Which customers? And what services? if those who provide ladies with low social responsibility, then yes, replaced, successfully

Geopolitical, geo-economic, geostrategic services. And yes - this is capitalism, baby. No lady any longer provides free services. Regardless of the level of her "social responsibility". It's just that the form and method of reward are different.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

KMK, if "the end came really" - most people in the country would notice it ...

And who told you that "the end" is something loud with bangs and earthquakes? The end is, first of all, the point of no return ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And of course - Ukraine is not "the poorest country in Europe".

If we count all sorts of "dwarfs", like the fragments of Yugoslavia, then yes, not the most, but for a country of such a level as Ukraine ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And even nominally lower than in Russia

Well, yes, "nominally" according to the World Bank for 2019, Russia (GDP by PPP) is in 6th place in the world (4051 tanks), Ukraine is in 49th place (390 Baku) ...

Quote: Zementbomber

though if we compare the average district center and the village of our countries outside the metropolitan areas - then the picture is probably more likely in our favor).

But you can not tell me about this - I had the good fortune to evaluate and compare your "regional centers outside the capital region" with Russian and Belarusian ones back in 2013 ... in Russia, although Belarusian villages look neater than Russian ones, but at the same time it is clear that they are poorer ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Geopolitical, geo-economic, geostrategic services. And yes - this is capitalism, baby. Free services no lady no longer provides.

Only one problem - you ALREADY were paid very well - gas is cheap, they bought your products in large volumes ... Fu, which are bad ... But who is good - Europe, it gave draconian export quotas, I put it on loans at a huge percentage, and the main thing is your goods to her lightly ... Now this is a good gentleman, pays a lot - as much as three pennies, and almost does not hit, well, when he sleeps, does not hit)))

[Zementbomber]

And who told you that "the end" is something loud with bangs and earthquakes? The end is, first of all, the point of no return ...

No. "The End" is "complete collapse", Fin Finale. But the "point of no return" - in socio-economic processes - no one can even approximately determine. Therefore, the "passing" of this point is only an exercise-stool of propagandists.

If we count all sorts of "dwarfs", like the fragments of Yugoslavia, then yes, not the most, but for a country of such a level as Ukraine ...

Well, OK. Suggest a reasoned gradation - who is a "European dwarf" and who is already "notdwarf "? Together and consider. Maybe - even to the so beloved by Misha" Spot "G." consensus "will come.

But you can not tell me about this - I had the good fortune to evaluate and compare your "regional centers outside the capital region" with Russian and Belarusian ones back in 2013 ... in Russia, although Belarusian villages look neater than Russian ones, but at the same time it is clear that they are poorer ...

List - can you announce? Because Gomel and Brest (although in Belarus - the difference is yes, least of all), Donetsk and Transcarpathian, Oryol and Leningrad - these are very big differences even within the "national couples". Even at the level of regional centers and villages.

Only one problem - you ALREADY were paid very well - gas is cheap, they bought your products in large volumes ... Fu, which are bad ... But who is good - Europe, it gave draconian export quotas, I put it on loans at a huge percentage, and the main thing is your goods to her lightly ... Now this is a good gentleman, pays a lot - as much as three pennies, and almost does not hit, well, when he sleeps, does not hit)))

You are unintentionally (or - much more likely - intentionally ) ignore the fact that both the "common" people and the AlEgarhs are absolutely worried about not abstract macroeconomic and macro-financial "national indicators". If on strawberries-raspberries in Poland - you can raise 4000 EUR "clean" for the "harvesting-assembly-packing season" - why should I be hired at UMZ? And about Antiresov Alegarkhov - I think it's even unnecessary to explain ... "The prestige of the profession of a" working man "- this has been laughable since 1970at the latest.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

No. The End is a complete collapse, Fin Finale.

This is just an opinion - there are many examples of countries that have slipped from a more or less decent state to something completely inaccessible and the chances to get out there are already about zero ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But the "point of no return" - in socio-economic processes - no one can even approximately determine. Therefore, the "passing" of this point is only an exercise-stool of propagandists.

I think you understand that this is the worst thing in this event?

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, OK. Suggest a reasoned gradation - who is a "European dwarf" and who is already a "non-dwarf"? Together and consider. Maybe we will even come to a “consensus” to the so-beloved "Spot" G.

Well, here's an example - Republic of Northern Macedonia? Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? Who is this?

Quote: Zementbomber

List - can you announce it? Because Gomel and Brest (although in Belarus - the difference is yes, least of all), Donetsk and Transcarpathian, Oryol and Leningradskaya - these are very big differences even within "national pairs". Even at the level of regional centers and villages.

It was a long time ago - in the 13th, I was not driving at the time then, but I’ll say that they drove through Sumy, so kill me, I don’t remember whether I drove to Konotop, therefore. what a hefty hook they did ... The main memory - roads in Russia - broken sections are relatively rare, either old good coverage, or new sections, in Ukraine - a washboard, shook us there a lot ... Then we went from Kiev to Belarus - already I imagine a bad route, but my friends all wanted to drive through Pinsk for fun ... In Belarus, then the roads after Ukraine were just like a countertop)))) Now, however, they have also deteriorated - last year we wound to Minsk - the same washboard, except major highways, but even there the quality is not better. Regarding the settlements as a whole - in Russia, everything is patchwork - there is a poorer, richer, but generally decent. In Belarus - not very rich, but everything is neat and tidy, but in Ukraine - it’s worth to move away from a serious center - as in the 90s, when everything was falling apart and overgrown with grass. Depressing was the impression. Unless the fields are good, they do not overgrow with birch trees, it’s like in Belarus. In Russia, we’re closer to large cities - more and more cottages are overgrown with fields, especially closer to Moscow to the north.

[Zementbomber]

Uvavzhayuschiysya, if in the elites of Russia "biomass" dominates, then in the elites of Ukraine everything is one-word - there is only one biomass, refined ...

This is a very natural and comfortable psychological defense. But what

The death of a People begins when it loses the ability to face reality; when he begins to substitute fantasy for the facts of real life; begins to dream and fall asleep. ... Oblivion of reality is a dream of the Nation - this is its inevitable Death "

- this is not "propaganda of stoned dill" at all. And the words of a horse-drawn hare, divisional commander of the Red Army, and before that - an officer of the General Staff of the Russian Army Alexander Andreevich Svechin. I advise you to remember them. And draw conclusions.

selling high-tech products abroad, where it is in high demand is not an option?

Quite an option. When there are products that are in demand justifying production in foreign markets. But after the line of An-24 and An-14M - "Antonov" did not create such products.

if Antonov finally accumulates, then it will be easier for Russia with all sorts of copyrights in the production of "Ruslans" and similar equipment at home.

Oh, these "mrii" ... Stork greets you with its example!

Given that such equipment can be produced in Ukraine in large quantities? And then for 100k bucks - it depends on what kind of garbage they sold ...

And why produce at a price two lemonax for a product when you can freely buy for 100 pieces? Well and yes - I know that they are sold trying to betray expensive bullshit -
they are constantly hammering: "cheap means treshak!" Oha, yes.

especially considering the burning Ukrainian warehouses, which are blazing stronger than Siberian forests in the hot summer

Well, how much of the general resource of ammunition was lost in those "blazing warehouses"? A lot if 5%.

Ukraine had the competencies for the production of all types of ammunition, but now it’s not even able to produce Kalash cartridges ...

Just nonsense. The nomenclature of missiles and ammunition produced in the Ukrainian SSR was very, very limited in reality. But yes - the Lugansk cartridge, we really temporarily lost.

Py.Sy .: you wrote that not all Ukrainian problems are caused by external factors - and so, 99,999% of Ukrainian problems are caused solely by internal factors ...

Not 99%. Even in Russia, whose troubles are much more than ours, have a purely internal nature - this share is not only 99%, but not even 80%. But yes - we also have more than enough internal sources of problems. Denying this would be absolutely stupid.
PS And personally, I not only do not support this caricatured "decommunization", but also more or less defiantly ignore it. Moreover, you will be greatly surprised, but those who ignore decommunization are not uncommon even among UDA fighters.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

This is a very natural and comfortable psychological defense. But what

This is the result of observations - it is banal to look at those characters who are in the government of the Russian Federation and at that deaf village, which represents the "elite" of Ukraine - I am getting scared, because relatives ... you are no longer like that ... ...

Quote: Zementbomber

- this is not "propaganda of stoned dill" at all. And the words of a horse-drawn hare, divisional commander of the Red Army, and before that - an officer of the General Staff of the Russian Army Alexander Andreevich Svechin. I advise you to remember them. And draw conclusions.

The Ukrainians should draw conclusions first of all! You always have all "mos ... are they to blame", but not with us))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Quite an option. When there are products that are in demand justifying production in foreign markets. But after the line of An-24 and An-14M - "Antonov" did not create such products.

To get started, check out what Antonov created, although why should Seliks have a microscope?

Quote: Zementbomber

And why produce at a price two lemonax for a product when you can freely buy for 100 pieces?

And then, that one job in the military-industrial complex creates about 20 jobs in the civilian world! But then again - why should the Selyaks living on IMF handouts and galloping in the squares know this?

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, how much of the general resource of ammunition was lost in those "blazing warehouses"? A lot if 5%.

Enough for the ammunition for the same city to become on the verge of deficit ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Just nonsense. The nomenclature of missiles and ammunition produced in the Ukrainian SSR was very, very limited in reality. But yes - the Lugansk cartridge, we really temporarily lost.

Again, find out what kind of "limited" it was))) You will be very surprised))) But Selyuka, why should I know all this?
And yes - you lost Lugansk temporarily, like Azerbaijan, Karabakh, like Moldova Transnistria, like Georgia, South Ossetia with Abkhazia ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Not 99%. Even in Russia, whose troubles are much more than ours, have a purely internal nature - this share is not only 99%, but not even 80%. But yes - we also have more than enough internal sources of problems. Denying this would be absolutely stupid.

Exactly 99%, therefore. that Ukraine didn’t start jumping, and continue to cooperate with Russia, without all this husk in the form of a nation, Europe and NATO - you would live like in chocolate, work in industry, buy agricultural products, hydrocarbons would go at domestic prices ...
Here is an example - Russia is now changing turbines for power plants - almost 1500 units! Who got this contract now? That's right - a joint venture with Siemens, which, in order to circumvent sanctions, localized production in Russia. Now imagine WHAT kind of grandmas would Ukraine get from this, which can produce these turbines, but no one needs Russia in commodity quantities at all, except Russia? And such examples are the sea ...

[Zementbomber]

I answered - but for some reason the answer didn’t get in the answers, but sawed off as a separate kament at the end of the discussion thread. See below.

[Avior]

No, the plant in Pavlograd is working

[Dormidont Evlampievich]

Bandera Wunderwafle - a shame for man

[Rusfaner]

"The preliminary tests of the Alder-M MLRS have been completed in Ukraine - this is the headline.
And this is the first paragraph:
"Preliminary tests of the Ukrainian Alder-M missile are continuing in Ukraine. The next launches were carried out in the Odessa region," the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reported on its Facebook page.

Dear author, you, please, decide who to join, smart or beautiful. And then you’re getting ready to read about one, but you get another ...

[Old26]

Quote: Zementbomber

Modern (or even past generation) OTRK Ukraine is not able to create

In a state of fact. Like the BDSD. Pure issue of expediency.

It can be seen. All previous projects of OTRK remained "paper". Both "Borisfen" and "Saipan". Of course, when the "Points" become obsolete, it is not the creation of new OTRKs - it is a matter of expediency. Let's see how you can make "Thunder-2" with Saudi money. Or, again, it turns out that "I didn’t shmogla", so you just don’t cut the money. The Saud will demand a report ...

[Zementbomber]

"Tochka-U" - will be removed from service without direct replacement. Its tasks will be undertaken by this very "Alder-M".
Neither Geodesy, nor Borisfen, nor Thunder, nor Korshun, nor Korshun-2 aroused interest among potential customers. Work on them was carried out exclusively on an initiative basis.
The only real order was for Sapsan (from Moscow Region) and Raad-2 (from KSA). Let's take a look.

[Comrade Michael]

Favorite heading, what about the Ukrainians? A competitor worthy of competing with him has been chosen ... But what am I talking about? We did not defeat this enemy either, although it is in our interests ... We are proud that we “did not appear for the battle” and concluded Minsk. The rest of the laughs over them look ridiculous.

[Zementbomber]

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

This is a very natural and comfortable psychological defense.

This is the result of observations - it is banal to look at those characters who are in the government of the Russian Federation and at that deaf village, which represents the "elite" of Ukraine - I am getting scared, because relatives ... you are no longer like that ... ...

Firstly, the elite is not only (and not so much) - the government. It (and even presidents - and even in "super-presidential" republics) is only a servant of these elites.
Secondly - the lesser degree of publicity in public manners and language - in and of themselves, is not a sign of great ability. One of my best technical consultants in the Ministry - spoke on the mats through every second word (and through every first - just swore ) and wrote with multiple AshShYbki. But in technical matters of tank construction - he understood more than perfectly.

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

- this is not "propaganda of stoned dill" at all. And the words of a horse-drawn hare, divisional commander of the Red Army, and before that - an officer of the General Staff of the Russian Army Alexander Andreevich Svechin. I advise you to remember them. And draw conclusions.

The Ukrainians should draw conclusions first of all! You always have all "mos ... are they to blame", but not with us))))

In your Reality - there are some "parallel Ukrainians". Which are completely unknown to me - a Pole who has lived almost continuously in Ukraine for half a century.

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

Quite an option. When there are products that are in demand justifying production in foreign markets. But after the line of An-24 and An-14M - "Antonov" did not create such products.

To get started, check out what Antonov created, although why should Seliks have a microscope?

Here I am just in the know. Due to the duty of the old service. In 1995-1997 - deputy. beg. Department - Assistant to the Head of the 4th GU Minmash VPK-Conversion - if it tells you something.

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

And why produce at a price two lemonax for a product when you can freely buy for 100 pieces?

And then, that one job in the military-industrial complex creates about 20 jobs in the civilian world! But then again - why should the Selyaks living on IMF handouts and galloping in the squares know this?

What in the "special period" - the interests of supplying and equipping the military organization of the state - take precedence over socio-economic tasks - is not known to Mr. "non-swinging nonsense"? prychal ...

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, how much of the general resource of ammunition was lost in those "blazing warehouses"? A lot if 5%.

Enough for the ammunition for the same city to become on the verge of deficit ...

http://hubs.ua/news/ukraina-zakry-la-defitsit-raket-dlya-sistem-zalpovogo-ognya-118935.html
- oh, yes - I forgot. that your info-wash - "know" the true "state of affairs!"

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

Just nonsense. The nomenclature of missiles and ammunition produced in the Ukrainian SSR was very, very limited in reality. But yes - the Lugansk cartridge, we really temporarily lost.

Again, find out what kind of "limited" it was))) You will be very surprised))) But Selyuka, why should I know all this?
And yes - you lost Lugansk temporarily, like Azerbaijan, Karabakh, like Moldova Transnistria, like Georgia, South Ossetia with Abkhazia ...

Would you like to give a complete nomenclature? Up to the production of individual subcomponents? It is possible - service manuals are still in my library.
With Nagorno-Karabakh / Artsakh and the Azerbaijani territories proper occupied by Armenia, the issue is complex and uncertain. For a variety of reasons. And the rest of the entities you mentioned are really doomed to political disappearance and reintegration into the composition of the metropolises.

Quote: Albert1988

Quote: Zementbomber

Not 99%. Even in Russia, whose troubles are much more than ours, have a purely internal nature - this share is not only 99%, but not even 80%. But yes - we also have more than enough internal sources of problems. Denying this would be absolutely stupid.

Exactly 99%, therefore. that Ukraine didn’t start jumping, and continue to cooperate with Russia, without all this husk in the form of a nation, Europe and NATO - you would live like in chocolate, work in industry, buy agricultural products, hydrocarbons would go at domestic prices ...

I am a 1970 release. "Life in chocolate" - I don't remember even during the times of the Ukrainian SSR. Although the social status of the family was decently above the average in Kiev. Well, it's elementary - not everyone is interested in those buns that you list. For millions of people - a strawberry-raspberry greenhouse in Poland - will be much more interesting. And yes - notkilled kopeck pieces of 500-600 "killed raccoons" - I bought up in Donetsk in those days when there was still LDZ between Ukraine and Russia. And my girlfriend from Donbass said that I was still overpaying.

Quote: Albert1988

Here is an example - Russia is now changing turbines for power plants - almost 1500 units! Who got this contract now? That's right - a joint venture with Siemens, which, in order to circumvent sanctions, localized production in Russia. Now imagine WHAT kind of grandmas would Ukraine get from this, which can produce these turbines, but no one needs Russia in commodity quantities at all, except Russia? And such examples are the sea ...

Sturgeon - trim, plz!

The Ministry of Industry and Trade estimated the future market of high-power gas turbines (GTBM) in Russia at 80 units by 2035.

But yes - "Zorya - Mashproekt" - really suffered decent losses.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Firstly, the elite is not only (and not so much) - the government. It (and even presidents - and even in "super-presidential" republics) is only a servant of these elites.

And who is the elite? Oligarchs of bandit origin? In this case, how do you differ from Russia? And then - the Russian oligarchs couldn’t bring the country from something, but the Ukrainian ones - quite ... And then - until recently, your oligarch and quasi-oligarch were the presidents)))

Quote: Zementbomber

One of my best technical consultants at the Ministry - spoke on the mats through every second word (and through every first word - just swearing) and wrote with multiple mistakes. But in technical matters of tank construction - he understood more than perfectly.

Believe it or not, I personally knew a professor (!) Who holds this position at Moscow State University, Michigan Institute of Technology and also supervises a laboratory in England, to whom I used to swear in the same way. but he knew from something where he could swear, and where not, but modern Ukrainian "elitists" for some reason do not know ...

Quote: Zementbomber

What in the "special period" - the interests of supplying and equipping the military organization of the state - take precedence over socio-economic tasks - is not known to Mr. "non-swinging nonsense"? prychal ...

A "special period" is a "special period"! between two "special periods", that is, the collapse of something that cannot be restored later, and the provision of people with work, which revives the economy and gives money to the budget - it does not matter ... yes, I cannot understand what is not going to stop ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Would you like to give a complete nomenclature? Up to the production of individual subcomponents?

In this case, just figure out how much is left of it now ...

Quote: Zementbomber

With Nagorno-Karabakh / Artsakh and the Azerbaijani territories proper occupied by Armenia, the issue is complex and uncertain. For a variety of reasons. And the rest of the entities you mentioned are really doomed to political disappearance and reintegration into the composition of the metropolises.

How many years have they been "doomed"? About how the dollar is doomed to fall ...

Quote: Zementbomber

http://hubs.ua/news/ukraina-zakry-la-defitsit-raket-dlya-sistem-zalpovogo-ognya-118935.html
- oh, yes - I forgot. that your info-wash - "know" the true "state of affairs!"

What is your infoklaka? especially referring to the magical pastor who has already defeated Russia

Quote: Zementbomber

I am a 1970 release. "Life in chocolate" - I don't remember even during the times of the Ukrainian SSR.

You may not remember, but the Ukrainians who moved to Russia from something. they remember how in the 90s at the peak of the collapse and burning in Russia, Ukraine lived quite freely, and now it has become exactly the opposite ...

Quote: Zementbomber

But yes - "Zorya - Mashproekt" - really suffered decent losses.

And also all other industries, because I will remind you that the only country that will buy a lot from Ukraine and will buy for a long time is Russia. Actually, why did they drag you to Europa - to sever existing economic ties with Russia and prevent potential ...
But again - the farmers do not understand this ...

[Zementbomber]

And who is the elite? Oligarchs of bandit origin? In this case, how do you differ from Russia? And then - the Russian oligarchs couldn’t bring the country from something, but the Ukrainian - quite ...

There is no other elite in the first generation after the "era of primitive accumulation". "Bloody dawn of the capitalist era ..." and all that.
And yes - wells and pipes - gave you a good starting advantage. A higher quantitatively and structurally level of industrialization of the Ukrainian SSR compared with the USSR - played since 1992-1993. a very evil (although expected by those who were smarter) joke.

A "special period" is a "special period"! between two "special periods", that is, the collapse of something that cannot be restored later, and the provision of people with work, which revives the economy and gives money to the budget - it does not matter ... yes, I cannot understand what is not going to stop ...

Restore - if desired and expediency - everything is possible. Even after the general nuclear war. Even if it took place in the late 1960s - at the peak of the total megatonnage. But yes - now for Ukraine an additional division of self-propelled howitzers is more important than the creation of additional. work places. The realities of wartime ...

In this case, just figure out how much is left of it now ...

I don't need to figure it out. I just know and follow. In the details.

How many years have they been "doomed"? About how the dollar is doomed to fall ...

From the very moment of their occurrence. The geopolitical catastrophe of Russia - these "new formations" will not be able to survive for objective reasons. But yes - this disaster - will not tomorrow. AND not day after tomorrow.

What is your infoklaka? especially referring to the magical pastor who already defeated Russia laughing

Well - what's the trouble? Infa about the production of NUR in Ukraine - and with details - The wagon and trolley carts on the Network even without any quotes from the Pastor.

You may not remember, but the Ukrainians who moved to Russia from something. they remember how in the 90s at the peak of the collapse and burning in Russia, Ukraine lived quite freely, and now it has become exactly the opposite ...

I personally remember the "dashing 90s" with pleasure. But then I was a pimp, then - an arms dealer and a little - a wild goose. But the hard worker-peasant-pensioner - then lived in Ukraine not very much and "freely".

And also all other industries, because I will remind you that the only country that will buy a lot from Ukraine and will buy for a long time is Russia. Actually, why did they drag you to Europa - to sever existing economic ties with Russia and prevent potential ...
But again - the farmers do not understand this ...

"khutor" - in its expressed mass - by 146% without a difference the abstract "level of development of national industry." They will be happy to pick strawberries in Poland if it will bring them several times more money than “prestigious work in“ high-tech enterprises. ” volumes of profit. Capitalism, however. However, the "disinterestedness of socialist society" is also very, very much exaggerated ...
..

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

There is no other elite in the first generation after the "era of primitive accumulation". "Bloody dawn of the capitalist era ..." and all that.

Alas, it happens - there is a capitalist focused on his own nation, but there is a stranger on a stranger, he is a comprador ... That’s the whole oligarchy of the whole conscientious - compradors.

Quote: Zementbomber

Restore - if desired and expediency - everything is possible.

Alas, it’s impossible, because in the global world no one needs competitors ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I don't need to figure it out. I just know and follow. In the details.

In this case, I can only confirm the words of my father that those who were engaged in the "conversion" are the gravediggers of the industry ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Well - what's the trouble? Infa about the production of NUR in Ukraine - and with details - The wagon and trolley carts on the Network even without any quotes from the Pastor.

And they all give "true" information? Considering that the data concerning the production volumes of one or another military product are purely secret))))

Quote: Zementbomber

I personally remember the "dashing 90s" with pleasure. But then I was a pimp, then - an arms dealer and a little - a wild goose. But the hard worker-peasant-pensioner - then lived in Ukraine not very much and "freely".

That's right - a normal person could not live "freely" in the 90s ... Apparently, the problem of modern Ukraine is that the power and public initiative in it completely passed into the hands of such "free from the 90s" who stubbornly pull the country into the 90s (and in their worst manifestation) so that they can live at ease again, and do not care about ordinary hard workers))))

Quote: Zementbomber

"khutor" - in its expressed mass - by 146% without a difference the abstract "level of development of national industry." They will be happy to pick strawberries in Poland, if it will bring them several times more money than "prestigious work in" high-tech enterprises. "And they will export legumes and refined sunflower oil instead of turbines and transport aircraft - if grain and oil will bring a higher rate and profit volumes.

The only problem is that the experience of world capitalism shows that all of the above you somehow always bring less profit than high-tech production ...

Quote: Zementbomber

However, the "disinterestedness of socialist society" is also very, very much exaggerated ...

It has nothing to do with it, speech for modern capitalist reality and for the behavior of countries in its realities ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

In your Reality - there are some "parallel Ukrainians". Which are completely unknown to me - a Pole who has lived almost continuously in Ukraine for half a century.

Alas, you have to communicate with these Ukrainians more often than you want, and in the most ordinary reality))))

[Zementbomber]

Well - somehow re-arranging my trunks after the next term of resolving - I met aunt in line with the local psychiatrist who excitedly and convincingly proved to everyone who wanted it (and also to those who didn’t want to) - that all the problems of Kiev were from our natives who had settled in Stolniy Grad Black Africa fatly fattening on our awesome Ukrainian welfare package. Someone and then. that Mother Earth - in nature like a flat plank board - believes. But to draw conclusions about the prevailing public sentiments on such "grounds" seems to me a little bit ridiculous, to put it mildly.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Well - somehow re-arranging my trunks after the next term of resolving - I met aunt in line with the local psychiatrist who excitedly and convincingly proved to everyone who wanted to ...

But I sooooo often meet in the vastness of our vast Motherland such citizens who came from Ukraine to "earn a penny", and now they have a bad Russia, everything is wrong, everything is to blame, etc. Not all, of course, but most ... Moreover, in contrast, arriving Belarusians say about one thing: "zhyvetsa, vyadoma, good, ale ўsё daragoe."

And then - most importantly - this is the life position of the active part of the population, which makes the political climate in the country ...
According to a friend of the Ukrainian (web developer) - the Natsiks repulsed in Ukraine - 2 percent of the population, but the same police are afraid of them to death, so that they can do almost everything they want, or rather, everything that they will be paid for.

By the way, here’s an example of an adequate Ukrainian from my acquaintances - a web developer guy, lived for a long time in Moscow, then, having worked out a portfolio, he moved back to Kiev, they built an office with the same sidekeepers, since they work in IT - they earn money if in rubles , 150-200 thousand, so they are then in Moscow, now in Kiev they are rolling like cheese in butter. On Pu, of course, I am angry for the Crimea and the Donbass (which is understandable), but at the same time, the situation in Ukraine is unambiguously assessed - politics is chaos, and people live without certainty, even compared to Russia ...

[Zementbomber]

Well - the police - this is expected.
Proverb:

I don’t want Robiti, but I'm afraid to steal. Go, mabut, to Kiev - I’ll hire a mile!

- goes back to the last millennium. Once I, too, through a friend - then a deputy of the Rada, agreed with the guys from "PS" to "educate" a group of cops a little. They blasted them well and did not even take money from me or from the girl, at whose request I had negotiated this. Only (as a decent person ) affixed to the guys.

But I sooooo often meet in the vastness of our vast Motherland such citizens who came from Ukraine to "earn a penny", and now they have a bad Russia, everything is wrong, everything is to blame, etc. Not all, of course, but most ... Moreover, in contrast, arriving Belarusians say about one thing: "zhyvetsa, vyadoma, good, ale ўsё daragoe."

I do not know. To doubt your words - I will not take the liberty of course. But my senior cousin changed his position as assistant prosecutor in the Kiev region to the head of the Special Design Bureau of the branch of an all-Russian retailer in one of the regional centers of European Russia. Putin, to put it mildly, does not support Putin - but also with foam not comes out. Two classmates also live in Russia. And one of them - flatly refuses to take Russian citizenship despite all the persuasions of her Russian second husband. But also - not with "twisted faces". The lover of my ex-stepdaughter in Moscow with his PPZh lived for a long time. He also estimates it quite soberly - although without enthusiastic aspiration of course - somewhere by 8-9 points (we have a 12-point system). That, nevertheless, did not at all prevent him, upon returning to Kiev, to conclude a contract with the Armed Forces of Ukraine and then submit a report on the direction to the JFO zone.
But I, of course, do not understand the Russophobia of the "workers" traveling to Russia. Nafig go then? Not - to love the country of temporary earnings - Gaster, IMHO, is not obliged at all. But hating is too much. Reminds of Ukrainian students of Polish universities, periodically kicked out of Poland for photos and actions under the OUN flag. I have a normal attitude towards OUN-R (although I’m not a fan of it - simply because I’m a Pole) - but I don’t care about the well from which you drink - and even defiantly and on sober and seemingly even unsmoked marikha head ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

- goes back to the last millennium. Once I, too, through a friend - then a deputy of the Rada, agreed with the guys from "PS" to "educate" a group of cops a little. They blasted them well, and they didn't even take money either from me or from the girl, at whose request I negotiated this. Only (as a decent person) put himself down to the guys.

Now the "group of cops" are sweeping the Natsiks))))

Quote: Zementbomber

I do not know. To doubt your words - I will not take the liberty of course. But my senior cousin changed his position as assistant prosecutor in the Kiev region to the head of the Special Design Bureau of the branch of an all-Russian retailer in one of the regional centers of European Russia. To put it mildly, he does not support Putin - but he doesn’t come with foam.

But I observe a lot of simple hard workers - they came to Russia to work, and Russia, you understand, is not like that with them, everything is not like that, I don’t like everything. A logical question - why didn't you go to Poland then, or where else to Europe - visa-free? Well, after this logical question, the person either withdraws into himself, or gives out something like "yes, you are all one ..."
True, I honestly admit that I spoke closely only with people from Ukraine and Belarus. what is there on the mind of all kinds of guests from the vast expanses of post-Soviet Central Asia, I do not know ...

Quote: Zementbomber

And one of them - flatly refuses to take Russian citizenship despite all the persuasion of her Russian second husband.

Well, this can be very profitable in many matters, especially if the husband is with Russian citizenship, but sometimes it can be very strong ... make ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I am normal about OUN-R

Do you also have a normal attitude towards SS?

Quote: Zementbomber

but spit in the well from which you drink - and even defiantly and on a sober and even kind of non-smoked marija’s head ...

Well, it all starts just with a "normal attitude" - if someone treats normally, then it is not forbidden to treat and positively ...

[Zementbomber]

Now the "group of cops" are sweeping the Natsiks))))

And what about the garbage - any special? Untouchable? In nature - there are no "untouchables" at all in nature. In this case, the cops beat up an ordinary husband of an ordinary wife only because he refused not to file a statement that he was robbed. And so he prevented the fermentation in the duty room. But they did not take into account that the simple wife of this simple husband has a difficult girlfriend. Which has a difficult husband. Who has an even more difficult girlfriend. So it went down the chain. And "to the boys-village-kolgosp" - a response came. Maybe - I already don't understand what in modern life (age, age ... ) - but the Concepts of the Great 90s - here were strictly observed.

Do you also have a normal attitude towards SS?

If you are really familiar with SS, it is impossible to formulate your attitude towards "SS in general". A member of the Einsatzkommando - I would have been shot like a mad dog with great pleasure. Yes, in the belly, moreover, so that he could feel everything. The veteran of the "granite" defense "Totenkopf" (namely the division, not the camp guard regiments) - I will salute with sincere respect (but in a war I would have killed him without the slightest hesitation and regret). And the "veteran" of the 14th Waffen Grenadier in the service of the SS Galicia Division - I have nothing but a frankly demonstrated contempt - does not cause me anything. For the track record of this division is pitiful, and its soldiers are cowards. To the one who joined the Allgemein-SS, just to "not get involved with this gop-shpana from SA" - my attitude will be neutral-understanding. Etc.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Are there any special garbage? The untouchables?

If you call them like that, then touching them is a pinch

Quote: Zementbomber

In this case, the cops beat up the simple husband of a simple wife just for that ...

This indicates a complete and irrevocable degradation of law enforcement agencies, because then, in a more adequate situation, a person writes I will declare to other bodies ... more toothy, which wool of these falcons and their bosses and little does not seem to them ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Maybe - I don’t understand what in modern life (age, age ...) - but the Concepts of the Great 90s were strictly observed here.

The problem is that the 90s are already gone, and many people continue to live according to their concepts, and that is why we all "post-Soviet space" do not crawl out of a kind of hybrid of the late Wild West with the Great Depression ...

Quote: Zementbomber

If you are really familiar with SS, it is impossible to formulate your attitude to "SS in general".

That is, it is not possible for a familiar with the criminal world to formulate an attitude to the criminal world as a whole? Is it not possible for a person familiar with excrement to formulate an attitude to these waste products in general?
And it doesn't matter that the SS-sheep tanker is a bit different from the SS-sheep from the concentration camp guards, but he is still a Nazi beaten off his head ... which means, "he painted himself in the colors that he painted himself", then there he fully shares the ideology according to which you personally, me, our relatives and friends are subhuman and bio-debris that must be destroyed ... Therefore, a bullet in the stomach deserves no less than all his other fellow "electricians" (there are two lightning bolts on the helmet drawn (tm) ...

[Zementbomber]

If you call them like that, then touching them is the laughing matter of laughing

"zashkvar" is a little different. Specifically, rubbish - can get into "zashkvar" only in turma, "in the zone" or "in chemistry". Trust the word of the former representative of the "criminal business" and who among her friends and partners had the leader of the most "authority in the district" of a teenage gang of one of the districts of Kiev, which at 11 (just in case: our partner with my Third BZ - she became an older age ) already knew all the Concepts and masterly knew how to express them by hairdryer at the level of knowledge by the diligent priestly daughter of the Ten Commandments and the Life of Christ.

This indicates a complete and irrevocable degradation of law enforcement agencies, because then, in a more adequate situation, a person writes I will declare to other bodies ... more toothy, which wool of these falcons and their bosses and little does not seem to them ...

I do not know how irrevocable - but complete - certainly yes. Moreover, initially we tried to solve the problem in less severe ways (one of the lovers of my Third BZ was in the rank corresponding to your police lieutenant general - but he only sighed and spread his hands). I had to understand the Concepts - there was no retreat!

The problem is that the 90s are already gone, and many people continue to live according to their concepts, and that is why we all "post-Soviet space" do not crawl out of a kind of hybrid of the late Wild West with the Great Depression ...

I am not at all opposed to the era known in the conventional "West" as "the era of the Russian Wild West" - sometime gone. But - not earlier than me and others who are "self mad men" and "self mad women" in the conventional "90s" - we will all go to our Land of the Eternal Hunt.

That is, it is not possible for a familiar with the criminal world to formulate an attitude to the criminal world as a whole?

Yes - impossible. Cheating without brakes is one thing. Putting under the trunks of cones from the tax for neglecting the refund of VAT and extorting a bribe at an unbeatable rate for resolving the issue is completely different. Not only none of those for whom
Concepts mean something, but none of the "clean" businesses will judge for the latter.

Is it not possible for a person familiar with excrement to formulate an attitude to these waste products in general?

You will be surprised, but sometimes the study of excrement while digging in it with pens is vital for the health and even the preservation of someone's very life. And any nurse from the parasitology department will confirm this to you. So even in such a seemingly obvious case - "everything is not so obvious" (c)

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

"zashkvar" is a little different.

I'm not talking about, okay, the joke failed ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I do not know how irrevocable - but complete - certainly yes.

This is also not very good ...

Quote: Zementbomber

... But - not earlier than me and others who are "self mad men" and "self mad women" in the conventional "90s" - we will all go to our Land of the Eternal Hunt.

What is this? Life is sweeter by concepts. What is life under the laws? But do you understand that until this era is gone, all this trash with nationalism and war will be going on?

Quote: Zementbomber

Yes - impossible.

In my opinion, it’s just the same possible — a negative attitude can be of various kinds — from a little I don’t like to a nausea from one kind.

Quote: Zementbomber

You will be surprised, but sometimes the study of excrement with digging pens in them is vital for health and even preserving one's life itself.

Of course - a good friend has a stepfather - proctologist Nevertheless, even to him these very substances do not seem to be chocolate ...

[Zementbomber]

And it doesn't matter that the SS-sheep tanker is a bit different from the SS-sheep from the concentration camp guards, but he is still a Nazi beaten off his head ... which means, "he painted himself in the colors that he painted himself", then there he fully shares the ideology according to which you personally, me, our relatives and friends are subhuman and bio-debris that must be destroyed ... Therefore, a bullet in the stomach deserves no less than all his other fellow "electricians" (there are two lightning bolts on the helmet drawn (tm) ...

Taki - it's important.
You are aware that in Waffen-SS - they also called up (moreover, conscripts - as well as volunteers by the way - not became automatically members of SS; GU Troops SS - kept statistics on this subject with the delivering name: the number of SS members in Waffen-SS)? That not only Waffen-SS, but also directly to the SS (with membership) were transferred by order not only individually military personnel, but also entire organizations (RSHA, Secret Field Police, Abwehr since July 1944) and military units . That a number of categories of Germans (the police right up to the creation of a land-assault and folk-assault, Volksdeutsche from friendly countries of the Reich, some other groups) - did not have the right to fight for Liebe Vaterland differently as in the Waffen-SS? That some categories of military units existed only as part of the Waffen-SS (Nutter Squadron, for example - but not only them)? So what's next? Let's, by analogy, show the Special Division of the NKVD of the RVGK that it is from the same NKVD Troops, in which the guards of the "extermination-labor" camps were also, right?
I think the strategic bombing of the Reich is fully justified. I do not blame them and do not regret them. But I not German. If I were a German, I lived at that time, and was fit for pilots - I would have no hesitation in joining at least SS, at least the ABVGD, at least at the Society of Servants of Lucifer, in order to more effectively defend German cities! Regardless of your attitude to Nazism. And therefore, I can’t condemn those who did just that.
I will also note that by the decision of the Nuremberg Chief Tribunal - members of the Waffen-SS who are not members of the SS - were recognized as not eligible for admission to "members of a criminal organization." They could be held accountable only for their specific (acts, orders) criminal acts. Moreover, even membership in the SS proper (in non-leadership roles - usually in Soviet and Russian literature and the media - a falsified translation of "rank-and-file members" is used here) was found not to automatically entail any responsibility. Even non-criminal.
Well, it's simple - no matter what nafig tribunals decide - I cannot deny respect to the soldier and commander, honestly, bravely and skillfully fighting for their cause. Even if I consider this case to be wrong and, moreover, criminal. Shoot - I can (I happened to finish off the wounded in the Congo - both "strangers" and from my own people - and personally and order them to do it), refuse respect - no. "The European Tradition of the relationship to Military Honor" is called (which has nothing to do with the notorious: "Ukraine is the tse of Europe!" - for in reality "Asia - begins in Brest-Litovsk - gentlemen!" (C)).

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

You are aware that in Waffen-SS - they also called up (and conscripts - as well as volunteers by the way - did not automatically become members of SS;

I know, they called, the most selective garbage)))))

Quote: Zementbomber

That not only Waffen-SS, but also directly to the SS (with membership) were transferred by order not only individually military personnel, but also entire organizations (RSHA, Secret Field Police, Abwehr since July 1944) and military units .

So what? The brown light ... is the brown light ... which, by the way, was killing your ancestors ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Let's, by analogy, show the Special Division of the NKVD of the RVGK that it is from the same NKVD Troops, in which the guards of the "extermination-labor" camps were also, right?

These are some kind of "exterminatory labor"? As "In the USSR, somehow there were only workers, to destroy the prisoners, as the Germans did, there was no task ... It's one thing when they don't really care, and another thing is when they deliberately and purposefully destroy them. The mustache needed labor, not corpses - the corpses of the railway will not be built and the channel will not be dug ...

Quote: Zementbomber

I think the strategic bombing of the Reich is fully justified.

That is, when a "separatist" like on your residential areas with a martyr is smacking - is this also "justified"?

Quote: Zementbomber

I would have no hesitation in joining at least SS, at least ABVGD, at least at the Society of Servants of Lucifer, in order to more effectively defend German cities!

Who "defended" the German cities there? you have not confused anything? Was it the USSR that attacked Germany on June 22, 1941? Or maybe it was the Americans in the 39th with the Angles flew to equalize Dresden?

Quote: Zementbomber

The Waffen-SS, non-SS members, were declared not eligible for membership in a "criminal organization."

Alas, we didn’t have time to hurry, but then if the Americans decided to work more thoroughly together with ours, all the "sy-sys" would go ... where necessary ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Moreover, even membership in the SS proper (in non-leadership roles - usually in Soviet and Russian literature and the media - a falsified translation of "ordinary members" is used here) was recognized as not automatically entailing any responsibility.

Again, I repeat - we did not have time to examine the activity in detail - in a hurry to complete the process within a year.

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, just - whatever the tribunals nafig decide - I can’t deny respect to the soldier and commander, honestly, bravely and skillfully fighting for his cause.

And the bandit who came to rob you and rape your wife and kill children, will you also respect "for professionalism"?

Quote: Zementbomber

"The European Tradition of Military Honor" is called

"European tradition", fortunately. does not imply lowering to an animal state, which was successfully demonstrated by the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. all the so-called "military valor" is instantly leveled out by the murder of children and old people, violence and murder of women, bullying of prisoners, etc. ... Apart from the scale and gravity of the crimes of Nazism were such that any belonging to it is already a fierce zashkvar .. ...

[Zementbomber]

I know, they called, the most selective garbage)))))

Nonsense. These "scum" more than once gave the enemy in Shchsham, even in 1944-45. - and both in the West and in the East.

So what? The brown light ... is the brown light ... which, by the way, was killing your ancestors ...

Well, fine - the red NKVDshnaya and NKGBshnaya sv ... whose - and there is the red NKVDshnaya and NKGBshnaya sv ... whose. Agreed, as I understand it?

And the bandit who came to rob you and rape your wife and kill children, will you also respect "for professionalism"?

You know, when I was a pimp, an extremely unpleasant incident happened. One of my best girls on the farm took youngsters. The guard laughed - did not think of checking the open balcony at over -20. And there - a whole shobla sat. The kid who was holding that house was figured out almost instantly - and - on the Red Farm. They tried almost to death - and the jailers - break oh how they can! - but he didn’t pass any of his shobbles. He screamed, cried - but did not surrender. I think that for the rest of his life, he then worked exclusively for his medicine. Our conscience (mine and the guys from the tire) is completely clean in this respect - but we did tell him well done.
I suppose I answered this your question sim.

These are some kind of "exterminatory labor"? As

Folk decoding of the abbreviation "ITL". Well, google the mortality statistics in the GULAG - the data has been open a long time ago and is published even on the websites of the most stubborn Stalinists.

That is, when a "separatist" like on your residential areas with a martyr is smacking - is this also "justified"?

Everything warranted by military expediency and reduces their Losses are not to the detriment of the combat mission. Therefore, such shelling of settlements, which took place in 2014-2015. - I consider it a gross AshShibka of operational strategic importance (and this is much worse in a war than any crime). It was necessary either to assemble consolidated art groups of the division level and level them with the ground so as to completely break all the enemy’s will to resist - or not to touch the civilians at all and drive a wedge between the blood-shed and deprived front and a secure rear (as was the case during WWI everywhere, except UK)

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Nonsense. These "scum" more than once gave the enemy in Shchsham, even in 1944-45. - and both in the West and in the East.

Oga, especially "Galicia" was heroic

Quote: Zementbomber

Well, fine - the red NKVDshnaya and NKGBshnaya sv ... whose - and there is the red NKVDshnaya and NKGBshnaya sv ... whose. Agreed, as I understand it?

For the brown through and through - the NKVD, of course, sv .. ch, and especially sv ... ch - this is tornado))))

Quote: Zementbomber

You know, when I was a pimp,

You do not shy away - a bandugan, together with a gang, entered your house in order to rob, raped and murdered your wife and killed your children - will you respect him if he shows something there? As for me, such an animal deserves only a smack on the forehead ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Folk decoding of the abbreviation "ITL".

And let's go without "folk" transcripts ...

Quote: Zementbomber

and war justifies everything that is dictated by military expediency and reduces its losses not to the detriment of the combat mission.

Then why are you moaning that there are "separatists" shooting at you? And imagine what will happen to you if Russia decides to really take on you? as they say - do not blame me ...

[Zementbomber]

Oga, especially "Galicia" was heroic laughing

"Galicia" - not "SS division". It was a division on the SS service. "third grade - not a marriage" is shorter.

For the brown through and through - the NKVD, of course, sv .. ch, and especially sv ... ch - this is tornado))))

Well, everything is fair - for the thoroughly brown - the NKVD "of course sv..ch." For those providing intimate services with all the holes to the garbage, VOKHR and GBshnik - already "through and through brown" - "of course, sv..ch". If either side wins, the representatives of the other side will be deservedly outweighed. I repeat - everything is fair. Only for some reason this approach of the GB, VOKHRu and the amphibians does not suit - immediately they begin to squeal hysterically about the "terror" of those who raised their heads, and exponentially dissolve their noses ...

You do not shy away - a bandugan, together with a gang, entered your house in order to rob, raped and murdered your wife and killed your children - will you respect him if he shows something there? As for me, such an animal deserves only a smack on the forehead ...

I directly and in detail answered you in fact. I quote:

You know, when I was a pimp, an extremely unpleasant incident happened. One of my best girls on the farm took youngsters. The guard laughed - did not think of checking the open balcony at over -20. And there - a whole shobla sat. The kid who was holding that house was figured out almost instantly - and - on the Red Farm. They tried almost to death - and the jailers - break oh how they can! - but he didn’t pass any of his shobbles. He screamed, cried - but did not surrender. I think that for the rest of his life, he then worked exclusively for his medicine. Our conscience (mine and the guys from the tire) is completely clean in this respect - but we did tell him well done.
I suppose I answered this your question sim.

And yes - I will "cool" and in this case. And not even "in the forehead". But if those who receive them are not afraid of this, I will note it.

And let's go without "folk" transcripts ...

This is me - I’ll decide how to thread it myself.

Then why are you moaning that there are "separatists" shooting at you? And imagine what will happen to you if Russia decides to really take on you? as they say - do not blame me ...

Where and when did I "moan" about this? Quote plz!
And yes - I was and still am 146% in favor of us "really tackling Russia." In a fight, you cannot act on the principle "you were hit a little - you answered a little". We must answer in full force. And if you are inferior in strength, then you also ignore all the written and unwritten rules of the fight. It is always necessary to substantively demonstrate the value of behavior. So yes - "don't blame me ...".
PS My closest (until now - although for obvious reasons - we communicate with her now very rarely and very little), a friend and one of our most beloved girls with the former Third Wife (one might say - a family member) is an officer of the "people's" police "of the LPR "since the spring of 2014, by the way.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

Galicia is not an SS division. It was a division in the service of the SS. "third grade - not a marriage" is shorter.

Og)))) Ten times)))
14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr. 1)
Does the name mean nothing?

Quote: Zementbomber

For those who provide intimate services with all openings to trash, VOKhR and GBshnikam

A generally interesting bow comes out of the small-criminal element and the brown ones. apparently by the principle of color attracted to each other)))) The stump is clear that thieves, killers and other criminality will be against law enforcement agencies))))

Quote: Zementbomber

And yes - I will "cool" and in this case. And not even "in the forehead". But if those who receive them are not afraid of this, I will note it.

Your will, animal, it is animal ...

Quote: Zementbomber

This is me - I’ll decide how to thread it myself.

Decide, always live well in fantasies))))

Quote: Zementbomber

Where and when did I "moan" about this? Quote plz!

You in this case are not you specifically, but Ukraine as a whole))))

Quote: Zementbomber

And yes - I was and still am 146% in favor of us "really tackling Russia."

Let's)))) You can immediately choose Mishiko as president for this - he has long expressed such suicidal dreams))) Take it))) Just do not forget to pre-purchase tickets to Poland)))) Because. that if you really try to climb Russia, then no Omeriga will fit in for you, and the Euroopeians who integrated you into all the places will sit with popcorn and watch))))
The only reasonable thing you should just pray for is that Russia will not take it for you to the fullest, because then it will be ... well, complete ...

Quote: Zementbomber

PS My closest (until now - although for obvious reasons - we communicate with her now very rarely and very little), a friend and one of our most beloved girls with the former Third Wife (one might say - a family member) is an officer of the "people's" police "of the LPR "since the spring of 2014, by the way.

and after that, someone claims that Ukraine is NOT a civil war

[Zementbomber]

Who "defended" the German cities there? you have not confused anything?

No - I have not "confused" anything. The crews of the Reich Air Force for example. The fact that your country has begun an aggressive war does not relieve the soldier of the obligation at all costs to overwhelm, if possible, everything that flies to equalize the cities of your country.

Alas, we didn’t have time to hurry, but then if the Americans decided to work more thoroughly together with ours, all the "sy-sys" would go ... where necessary ...

Again, I repeat - we did not have time to examine the activity in detail - in a hurry to complete the process within a year.

From these statements of yours, I only conclude that you do not know anything about the Main Nuremberg Trials. Well - nothing at all. Even at the level of castrated and distorted Soviet popular brochures and RuViki.

"European tradition", fortunately. does not imply lowering to an animal state, which was successfully demonstrated by the soldiers of the Wehrmacht. all the so-called "military valor" is instantly leveled by the murder of children and the elderly, violence and murder of women, bullying of prisoners, etc.

Military Valor - nothing and no one is able to level out.

We miss the scale and severity of the crimes of Nazism were such that any belonging to him-is now a fierce bastard ...

Following this "logic", any belonging to communism is no less a "fierce zashkvar". But only "for some reason" - you are rapidly "making bricks" when the communist ideology and the Soviet regime are declared criminal somewhere ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

No - I have not "confused" anything. The crews of the Reich Air Force for example. The fact that your country has begun an aggressive war does not relieve the soldier of the obligation at all costs to overwhelm, if possible, everything that flies to equalize the cities of your country.

Then it’s not necessary to moan, as they bombed us good ...

Quote: Zementbomber

From these statements of yours, I only conclude that you do not know anything about the Main Nuremberg Trials.

I know, of course not at the level of a historian who has devoted his whole life to studying this event, but I know enough. But your attempts by all means to whitewash the Nazi de ... mo from the SS, implicated in the most hellish war crimes in history, is very symptomatic ... And then people like you complain that "Russia is ahresor! Co-co-co!"

Quote: Zementbomber

Military Valor - nothing and no one is able to level out.

Murder of children, old people, bullying of prisoners, violence and murder of women ... Such spots on the uniform are not covered with orders, if a person does this, then no matter what "military prowess" he shows, then he deserves only one thing - deprivation of all awards and titles and "coolies in the forehead". It is very interesting - in the German army they didn’t stroke the head for such a thing, but in the Red Army they were shot, which proves once again that the “red” were people, and the “brown” successfully descended to the animals ... And if someone did this sympathizes with animals - he differs little from them ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Following this "logic", any belonging to communism is no less a "fierce zashkvar". But only "for some reason" - you are rapidly "making bricks" when the communist ideology and the Soviet regime are declared criminal somewhere ...

Og "Communism", of course, preached the mass extermination of people on any grounds)))) You don't know a lot about "communism", although it seems like they were born in the USSR ... I see the blank propaganda in "nenka" has replaced any information ...
Incidentally, this, by the way, is the very same psychological defense - if we live much worse than under the "old regime", and over the years it gets worse, there are no achievements - what should be done? That's right - ob..dit this very "old regime". In Russia, everything is the same, by the way, but in Ukraine everything is worse, and therefore living ... is stronger by orders of magnitude ...

[Zementbomber]

Then it’s not necessary to moan, as they bombed us good ...

I totally agree! ChSKh, from those who mercilessly destroyed the strategic Allied bombers over the Reich - such complaints were not heard. Mutual absolute ruthlessness was. The rage of level 80 was. Complaints - not It was. And even already deeply retired - those who survived in this air meat grinder - did not have any "complaints".

And then people like you complain that "Russia is an ahresor! Ko-ko-ko!"

Quote, plz - where I am "complaining" about Russia! " ...

Completely on this your post - I will answer later.

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

I totally agree! CHSH, from those who mercilessly destroyed the strategic bombers of the Allies over the Reich - such complaints were never heard. Mutual absolute ruthlessness was. Rage level 80 was. There were no complaints. And even deeply retired - those who survived in this air grinder - did not have any "complaints".

And you read more attentively modern German scribbles from the category "went for wool - he returned with a haircut, now unhappy and offended" ...

Quote: Zementbomber

Quote plz - where I "complain" about Russia!

You, specifically, may not complain, but you live in a fantasy world, because:

Quote: Zementbomber

He proposed to bomb the center of Moscow (or rather, he supported and substantially supplemented the idea).

THAN?! I patstalom WHAT will you bomb the center of Moscow? Well, to Rostov-on-Don, maybe you can get it ... And most importantly - do you imagine the answer? Without fairy tales about nuclear weapons? From you then it will remain that only buried in closed coffins)))) So that people do not scare ...

Dreamer, however, you are my friend, but you seem to be a serious person ...

[Albert1988]

Quote: Zementbomber

4th GU MinmashVPK conversion - if this tells you something.

This tells me a lot, a lot of sad things ...