What will give the fleet VNEU the second stage


The composition of the installation FC2G AIP and its placement on the submarine


Recently, a controversy has unfolded on the pages of the Military Review about the advantages of new power supplies for electric propulsion of the Japanese DPL Oryu (Dragon Phoenix), the penultimate unit in the Soryu-type submarine series. The reason for the discussion was the admission to fleet self-defense forces eleventh in a row (in a series of twelve ordered submarines) NPL armed with a lithium-ion battery (LIAB).

Against this background, the fact of the creation and pilot operation of an air-independent energy installation (VNEU) of the so-called second stage remained completely unnoticed. The FC2G AIP was developed by engineers and designers of the French naval industrial group Naval Group (NG), the former DCN. Earlier, the same concern was created for the Agosta-90B submarine VNEU of the MESMA type, operating on the basis of a closed-cycle steam turbine.


View of the FC2G AIP installation compartment for insertion into the housing during modernization of submarines

It’s logical to ask a question: haven’t there been an attempt to produce hydrogen directly on board a submarine? Answer: undertaken. The reforming of diesel fuel to produce hydrogen, as well as the problem of the direct production of electrical energy from the chemical bonds of the reactants, was dealt with by the Americans and our scientists. But success came to the scientists and engineers of NG. The French engineers managed to create a facility that, by reforming the standard diesel fuel OTTO-2, receives high purity hydrogen to the submarine boat, while German submariners are forced to carry H2 reserves aboard their type 212A boats.


German submarine pr. 212A in the context

The significance of the creation by NG concern of a facility for producing ultrahigh purity hydrogen (purity 99,999%) directly on board the submarine has not yet been fully appreciated by naval experts. The appearance of such an installation is fraught with enormous opportunities for the modernization of existing submarines and the creation of projects for new submarines, to increase the duration of their continuous stay under water without surfacing. The relative cheapness and availability of OTTO-2 fuel in the production of free hydrogen for use in VNEU fuel cells for ECG will allow countries with this technology to significantly advance in improving the performance characteristics of submarines. The development of this type of anaerobic propulsion systems is much more profitable than previously proposed.

Here is why.

1. VNEU on the ECG are twice as quiet as the Stirling engine, because they simply do not have rotating parts of the machine.

2. When using diesel fuel, it is not necessary to carry on board additional containers for storing hydride-containing solutions.

3. The anaerobic propulsion system of the submarine becomes more compact and has a lower thermal trace. All components and systems are assembled in a separate eight-meter compartment, and are not scattered throughout the submarine compartments.

4. The influence of shock-vibration loads on the installation is less critical, which reduces the possibility of its spontaneous ignition, which cannot be said about lithium-ion batteries.

5. Such an installation is cheaper than LIAB.

Some readers may reasonably object: the Spaniards also created an anaerobic plant with bioethanol reforming (BioEtOH) to produce highly purified hydrogen on board. They plan to install such units on their S-80 submarines. The first AIP is planned for installation on the Cosme Garcia submarine in March 2021.

In my opinion, the disadvantage of the Spanish installation is that, in addition to cryogenic oxygen, it is also necessary to place on board the containers for bioethanol, which has a number of drawbacks in comparison with the OTTO-2 single fuel.

1. Bioethanol (industrial alcohol) is 34% less energy intensive than diesel. And the power of the remote control, the cruising range of the submarines, and the storage volumes depend on this.

2. Ethanol is hygroscopic, has increased corrosiveness. And around - "water and iron."

3. When burning 1 liter of bioethanol, the same amount of CO is released2as the amount of fuel burned. Therefore, the "bubble" such an installation will be notable.

4. Bioethanol has an octane number of 105. For this reason, it cannot be poured into the tank of the diesel generator, since detonation will blow the engine into bolts and nuts.

Therefore, it is still preferable to VNEU based on diesel reforming. DPL fuel tanks are very voluminous and in no way depend on the availability of additional containers for technical alcohol for the operation of the “bioethanol” installation. In addition, a single fuel OTTO-2 will always be in abundance at any naval base or home base. It can even be obtained at sea from any ship, which cannot be said about alcohol, albeit technical. And the released volumes (as an option) can be given for the placement of oxygen. And thereby increase the time and range of scuba diving submarines.

One more question: are LIAB needed at all then? Answer: certainly needed! Although they are expensive and very high-tech, they are afraid of mechanical damage, which can be fire hazardous, nevertheless, they are easier, can take any form (conformal), at least 2-4 times (compared with lead-zinc acid batteries) have a larger capacity stored electricity. And this is their main advantage.

But then why such a boat carrying LIAB, some kind of VNEU there?

An anaerobic power plant is needed in order not to "stick out" a diesel engine under water (RDP) device on the sea surface, to give a move or start a diesel generator to charge the battery charge. As soon as this happens, two or three signs unmasking the boat will immediately appear: a breaker on the surface of the water from the RPD mine and the radar / TLV / IR visibility of this retractable device. Yes, and the visual (optical) visibility of the submarine itself, "hanging" under the radar, even from space, will be significant. And if the exhaust gas from a working diesel engine (though through water) is in the atmosphere, then the gas analyzer of the BPA (PLO) aircraft will be able to record the fact of being in the area of ​​the submarine. This has happened more than once.

And further. No matter how quietly a diesel engine or diesel generator works in the submarine compartment, sensitive ears of enemy forces and means can always hear it.

Boats will be able to avoid all these shortcomings when using AB and VNEU together. Therefore, the combined use of VNEU and ultra-high energy storage devices, such as magnesium, silicon-metal or sulfur batteries, in which the capacity is expected to be 5-10 times (!) More than LIAB, will be very promising. And it seems to me that scientists and designers have already taken this circumstance into account when developing new submarine projects.

So, for example, it became known that upon completion of the construction of a series of submarines of the Soryu type, the Japanese will begin to design and R&D for submarines of the next generation. Recently, media reported that it will be a submarine of type 29SS. It will be equipped with a single (all-mode) Stirling engine of improved design and probably a capacious LIAB. And such work in conjunction with American scientists has been underway since 2012. The new engine will have nitrogen as its working fluid, while it was helium in Swedish cars.


Estimated type of submarine type 29SS

Military analysts believe that the new ship in general will retain a very good shape, worked out on submarines of the Soryu type. At the same time, it is planned to significantly reduce the size and give a more streamlined shape to the “sail” (fencing of retractable devices). Horizontal bow rudders will be transferred to the bow on the hull of the boat. This will reduce the hydrodynamic resistance and the level of intrinsic noise when water flows around a submarine’s hull at higher underwater speeds. Will undergo changes and propulsion submarine. The fixed pitch propeller will be replaced by a jet propulsion. According to experts, the armament of the submarine will not undergo significant changes. As before, the boat will have six 533-mm bow torpedo tubes for firing heavy torpedoes (type 89), anti-submarine torpedoes and Sab Harpoon-class cruise missiles, as well as for setting minefields. The total ammunition on board the submarine will be 30-32 units. At the same time, its typical loading (6 new anti-ship missiles, 8 torpedoes of the Type 80 submarine, 8 heavy torpedoes of the Type 89, self-propelled guns of the main engine and electronic warfare) will apparently be saved. In addition, it is assumed that new boats will have active anti-submarine defense (PTZ) means, and possibly air defense systems launched from a torpedo tube.

Work on the creation of a new submarine is planned to be carried out in the following terms: R&D in the period from 2025 to 2028, construction and commissioning of the first submarine building of project 29SS is expected in 2031.

According to foreign experts, the states of the Indian and Pacific Ocean basins will soon need to modernize and upgrade their fleets. Including submarine forces. For the period until 2050, the need for submarines will be about 300 units. To purchase boats that are not equipped with VNEU, none of the potential buyers will be. This is convincingly evidenced by tenders for the acquisition of submarines held by India and Australia. India bought the French Scorpen-type NPLs, and Canbera chose Japanese Soryu-type NPLs for her fleet. And this is no coincidence. Both of these types of boats have VNEU, providing them to be without surfacing under water for up to 2-3 weeks (15-18 days). Japan today has eleven NPLs. South Korea is building its K-III submarine with lithium-ion batteries.

Unfortunately, we cannot yet boast of successes in creating submarines armed with non-nuclear non-volatile propulsion systems. Although work in this direction was carried out, and, it seemed, success was not far off. It is hoped that the specialists of the Central Design Bureau MT Malakhit, the Central Design Bureau MT Rubin, the Federal State Unitary Enterprise Krylovsky SSC, Central Research Institute SET in the near future will nevertheless be able to create a similar or better foreign counterparts to a Russian non-nuclear submarine engine. This will significantly increase the combat readiness of the fleet, strengthen our position in the export of submarines to traditional customers, and help to conquer new markets for the supply of our naval products.
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  1. Amateur April 28 2020 18: 23 New
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    The French engineers managed to create a plant that, by reforming the standard diesel fuel OTTO-2, receives high purity hydrogen to the submarine bot

    The boat needs electricity, not hydrogen. For its conversion of hydrogen into electricity, oxygen and a certain Stirling or other device for converting the chemical energy of oxidation into electricity or any other type of energy suitable for use in a propulsion system of a submarine are again needed.
    Another "VNEU, VNEU, VNEU" from the cats on the roof.
    1. Alex777 April 28 2020 21: 14 New
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      The French have solved a problem that we could not. hi
      Author! Who told you that Australia chose Sora ?!
      The Yankees lobbied the French. In gratitude for the Mistral.
      https://www.newsru.com/world/26apr2016/submarines.html
      1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 01: 18 New
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        Quote: Alex777
        Who told you that Australia chose Sora ?!

        It was so. Even a declaration of intent was signed. But then, the Yankees intervened and everything went to dust.
        Tokyo will require Australia to explain its refusal to purchase Japanese submarines in favor of the French supplier. This was announced at a press conference on Tuesday by the country's defense minister, Gen Nakatani.
        "This is a very annoying omission. We want Australia to explain the reason for abandoning Japanese submarines," said the head of the Ministry of Defense, adding that "Australia will continue to remain a special strategic partner for Japan."
        https://www.newsru.com/submarines.html

        Therefore you are right. The French offered the Australians an ocean submarine based on the Barracuda submarine project:
        The Shortfin Barracuda Blok.1A submarine will be 97 meters long, displacement 4500 tons (for the atomic version, length 99 meters and displacement 4700 tons). The estimated speed of the NAPL will be more than 20 knots in the underwater position, the cruising range at a speed of 10 knots is 18000 nautical miles, the duration of autonomous navigation is 80 days, the crew is 60 people. In the future, the Naval Group Australia company proposes to upgrade the built submarines to Block.1B and Block.1C versions.
        For inaccuracy, I apologize. (Not out of spite, but out of sight ... Litter. recourse
    2. Vovanya April 29 2020 17: 02 New
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      The author confuses OTTO-2 monofuel and diesel fuel - to conduct monofuel reforming - this is to blow up a boat. It also does not take into account the energy density contained in the same volume of ECG and Stirling. ECG is still weak and expensive to operate.
  2. Alien From April 28 2020 18: 32 New
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    Thanks to the author.! Informative!!
  3. Lexus April 28 2020 18: 47 New
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    To purchase boats that are not equipped with VNEU, none of the potential buyers will no longer.
    And only the Russian Navy continues to bullet money into the "Black Hole" from hopelessness.
    Japan today has eleven NPLs.

    In the Naval Self-Defense Forces of Japan 22 NPLs (including 2 training).
  4. 955535 April 28 2020 18: 52 New
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    VNEU create those who can not afford for one reason or another nuclear power plants.
    1. Sergey S. April 28 2020 19: 00 New
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      Quote: 955535
      VNEU create those who can not afford for one reason or another nuclear power plants.

      I suppose that France and Germany, as well as even Japan, are able to create nuclear power plants for submarines.
      The reasons for creating VNEU are different.
      It is necessary to learn how to live long and cheap enough under water and control large underwater areas.
      The trouble is that today there is no VNEU, which (except for nuclear power plants) would have the appropriate parameters.
      But a nuclear power plant in terms of cost and a number of other parameters cannot be mass.
      1. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 16 New
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        Quote: Sergey S.
        But a nuclear power plant in terms of cost and a number of other parameters cannot be mass.

        controversial point of view - count the nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines built in the USSR / RF after 1960 ... request
        the problem is that modern nuclear submarines, especially Russian ones, have grown sharply in size ... request
        1. Sergey S. April 28 2020 19: 29 New
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          Quote: ser56
          controversial point of view - count the nuclear submarines and diesel-electric submarines built in the USSR / RF after 1960 ... request

          In the long run, these boats cannot control the entire world ocean.
          Try to understand how tank troops, aircraft evolved ...
          Once upon a time, armies acted in units, then in gigantic units.
          100 years ago, the front line became a continuous length of a thousand kilometers ...
          Now the battlefield is the entire territory of the participating countries.
          Is the fleet worse?
          The winner fleet must control the entire oceans, at least in the future ...

          Quote: ser56
          the problem is that modern nuclear submarines, especially Russian ones, have grown dramatically in size ... request

          You are not up to date.
          Our boats with nuclear power plants can be the smallest ...
          But no matter what they are, not every district can be thwarted with nuclear power plants, and it's expensive.
          I am silent about the dangers of exploitation.
          This problem (liquidation of the consequences of the accident) is very expensive and unmasks not only the facility, but the entire infrastructure ..
          1. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 43 New
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            Quote: Sergey S.
            not every district can be suvied with nuclear power plants,

            if not a secret, why?
            Quote: Sergey S.
            and it’s expensive.

            by no means ... the cost and costs of VNEU are huge
            Quote: Sergey S.
            I am silent about the dangers of exploitation.

            for whom ? having liquefied oxygen on board is a moot point request
            Quote: Sergey S.
            This problem (liquidation of the consequences of the accident) is very expensive and unmasks not only the facility, but the entire infrastructure ..

            offer to abandon the submarine? bully
            Quote: Sergey S.
            The winner fleet must control the entire oceans, at least in the future ...

            nonsense... bully
            1. Sergey S. April 28 2020 21: 00 New
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              Quote: ser56

              Quote: Sergey S.
              not every district can be suvied with nuclear power plants,

              if not a secret, why?

              International treaties are not allowed ...
              And foreign economic zones are divided by giant water areas.
              1. ser56 April 28 2020 21: 22 New
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                Quote: Sergey S.
                International treaties are not allowed ...

                which ones? bully
            2. Sergey S. April 28 2020 21: 04 New
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              Quote: ser56
              have liquefied oxygen on board pleasure controversial request

              A small-sized lightweight nuclear reactor is not a pleasure at all.
              1. ANB
                ANB April 29 2020 02: 16 New
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                . A small-sized lightweight nuclear reactor is not a pleasure at all.

                Better nuclear.
              2. ser56 April 29 2020 15: 13 New
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                Quote: Sergey S.
                it is not a pleasure at all.

                What's the problem? it will only have to be included in a special period, and fresh it is absolutely safe - the background from enriched uranium is ridiculous ... request
            3. Sergey S. April 28 2020 21: 08 New
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              Quote: ser56
              offer to abandon the submarine?

              God forbid. I didn’t say such nonsense.
              The meaning of my post is that no one will be able to win in the next big war unless he controls the world's oceans.
              And here we need solutions on the criterion of quality - efficiency - productivity.
            4. Sergey S. April 28 2020 21: 09 New
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              Quote: ser56
              nonsense, some ... bully

              Understood, failed to understand someone else's thoughts ....
              1. ser56 April 28 2020 21: 23 New
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                Quote: Sergey S.
                Understood, failed to understand someone else's thoughts ....

                learn to formulate request
            5. ANB
              ANB April 29 2020 02: 13 New
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              . for whom ? have liquefied oxygen on board pleasure controversial request

              Support.
              I’ll even clarify that having liquid oxygen on board is practically unrealistic. It is liquid due to constant evaporation. Compressed at best.
              1. ser56 April 29 2020 15: 17 New
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                Quote: ANB
                Compressed at best

                density drops sharply .. repeat
                1. ANB
                  ANB April 29 2020 15: 47 New
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                  Naturally. But the evaporation of oxygen on the PL is unacceptable.
                  Therefore, the idea with oxygen on board is very muddy.
          2. bk0010 April 28 2020 21: 34 New
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            Quote: Sergey S.
            Now the battlefield is the entire territory of the participating countries.
            Is the fleet worse?
            The winner fleet must control the entire oceans, at least in the future ...
            The fleet fundamentally differs from ground forces precisely in that it has single actors. The states, for example, have 11 (like) aircraft carriers, about 60 destroyers, and about a dozen cruisers. And that’s all. And motorized rifles in one company have about a hundred people. That is why mine weapons in the Navy are so effective: damage to even one ship greatly changes the situation. And by the way, decide what is ocean control for you?
            1. Courier April 29 2020 08: 37 New
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              And the United States also has 64 multipurpose nuclear submarines, 20 LCS, 8 UDK Wasp, 1 UDK America, 12 landing ships of the docks Whidbey Island and Harpers Ferry and 11 ship-docks San Antonio.
          3. Boa kaa April 29 2020 01: 34 New
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            Quote: Sergey S.
            In the long run, these boats cannot control the entire world ocean.
            The winner fleet must control the entire oceans, at least in the future ...

            Not a single sane politician, head of state, will set before his Navy / Navy such unsolvable tasks in principle.
            Yes, this is not necessary. It is necessary to control key points and water areas: approaches to straits, harbors and ports, recommended courses and communication centers. And who needs the middle of the Pacific? Only if SSBN, as the BS bearing area. But for them there are places and a chowder ...
            1. Sergey S. April 29 2020 10: 43 New
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              Quote: BoA KAA
              Not a single sane politician, head of state, will set before his Navy / Navy such unsolvable tasks in principle.

              And thank God.
              But so far the economy does not allow it.
              And crazy heads and technical capabilities bring the future closer ...
              I’m sure it won’t take so long, and ocean drones will fill the whole world’s oceans ... At first, at least for the purpose of reconnaissance ...
              Quote: BoA KAA

              Yes, this is not necessary. It is necessary to control key points and water areas: approaches to straits, harbors and ports, recommended courses and communication centers.

              This is in a confrontation between two opponents - there are "rules of the game" - we are fighting against each other.
              Now many countries are trying to raise their world status. The question is rhetorical and someone will say stupid.
              Why Singapore DEPL with VNEU?
              Whom can he attack and defeat?
              However, in Singapore, South Korea, South Africa, in all the Americas ... Egypt, Algeria .... they think differently.
              And if a global conflict starts today, as the armed forces of different states lead, there is no complete certainty. Already in the second world, 62 states took part, out of 73 that existed at that time, which made up 80% of the world's population. But then the technical capabilities of the vast majority were meager. And now Singapore has boats with VNEU.
              Quote: BoA KAA
              And who needs the middle of the Pacific? Only if SSBN, as the BS bearing area. But for them there are places and a chowder ...

              So you yourself answered the first thesis of your post.
              There would be an ocean, and tasks will appear if technical means are created.
              1. ser56 April 29 2020 15: 16 New
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                Quote: Sergey S.
                And now Singapore has boats with VNEU.

                So what? One YaChB in a pair of MT and krants of this power ... bully with any diesel submarines wink
      2. 955535 April 28 2020 19: 16 New
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        France has nuclear powered ships, Germany even abandoned nuclear power plants, and Japan's nuclear power plants were designed and built by the United States.
        It’s expensive to maintain nuclear powered vehicles (the whole cycle: design, construction, operation, disposal). Not all of this can allow.
        None of VNEU so far can ensure the rapid development of power, depending on the current situation.
        1. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 44 New
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          Quote: 955535
          France has nuclear powered ships, Germany even abandoned nuclear power plants, and Japan's nuclear power plants were designed and built by the United States.

          and then what is this for us? we have infrastructure for nuclear submarines ...
          Quote: 955535
          Keeping nuclear powered ships expensive

          contain 2 systems even more expensive ... request
  5. Revival April 28 2020 18: 52 New
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    It will give the same thing as the “extra” of the first stage, which are not
  6. TIO1969 April 28 2020 18: 55 New
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    and Canbera chose the Japanese Soryu-type submarines for her fleet.


    Really? It seems Australia took French boats without VNEU.
  7. K-50 April 28 2020 19: 12 New
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    If an acceptable VNEU is created, then nothing prevents it from being used in space, instead of our nuclear power plants, which they have been trying to create for years.
    The megawatt class is 1000 kW, so it would be no more powerful VNEU. Again, relief from the lack of radiation protection. If used in the Earth-Moon mode, it is quite possible to automatically refuel with kerosene. Everything will be safer than hydrogen. IMHO.
    1. bk0010 April 28 2020 21: 37 New
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      Generally not an option. Well, absolutely. It’s one thing to pull up tens of kilograms of nuclear fuel and another thousand tons of diesel fuel.
      1. ANB
        ANB April 29 2020 02: 19 New
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        If only diesel fuel. The oxidizer is still dragging.
    2. Boa kaa April 29 2020 02: 09 New
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      Quote: K-50
      instead of our nuclear power plants, which they have been trying to create for years.

      Such installations have long been created. Moreover, one of them is installed on board the Chinese lunar rover Chang'e-4, which allows it to work on the far side of the moon, where solar panels cannot be used.
      1. Pushkowed April 29 2020 06: 01 New
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        on the far side of the moon where solar panels cannot be used
        It is very possible to use solar panels there. They are on the Chinese lunar rover and on its landing platform. For reverse the side of the moon is not "dark." Day and night there last as long as on the visible side of the moon, i.e. about 15 earth days.
  8. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 16 New
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    Pampering is all about creating a small reactor with direct energy conversion ... request
    1. Zlat070 April 28 2020 19: 32 New
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      Any concrete thoughts in this direction?
      1. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 52 New
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        Quote: Zlat070
        Any concrete thoughts in this direction?

        corny - look at thermoelectric generators based on reactors for satellites ... hi
        You can put Topaz - "The output electric power of the converter ranged from 5 to 6,6 kW." Weight 900 kg ... "The active zone had a diameter of 28 cm and a length of 36.4 cm." More advanced Topaz -2 (Yenisei) up to 10 kW, resource 3 years ....
        Based on the fact that VNEU is usually 250 kW, you need 25-30 blocks, the mass of the blocks is about 30 tons, well, all sorts of constructive pieces, protection - you get 150 tons ... hi
    2. martin-159 April 28 2020 19: 41 New
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      It is necessary, but there are no such technologies.
      1. ser56 April 28 2020 19: 53 New
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        Quote: martin-159
        but there are no such technologies.

        You are mistaken ... hi
  9. Dmitry from Voronezh April 28 2020 19: 43 New
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    An interesting and informative article. But still I would not consider success in DF reforming a huge breakthrough, since the main problem of VNEU is low power and, as a result, the very low speed of underwater travel on VNEU remains unresolved. But the combination of Li-Ion batteries with VNEU looks promising, although it will come out very expensive.
    1. Nikolaevich I April 29 2020 03: 24 New
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      Quote: Dmitry from Voronezh
      the combination of Li-Ion batteries with VNEU looks promising, although very expensive.

      And cumbersome ...!
  10. SVD68 April 28 2020 20: 44 New
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    The question with the French VNEU is only one - what is the power? If again suitable only as an auxiliary installation, then it is not needed.
  11. Warrior MorePhoto April 28 2020 21: 14 New
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    Hmm ... where are we at this celebration of life?
    Lada is a karmic word !!! Do not consume!
  12. timokhin-aa April 28 2020 21: 29 New
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    Otto-2 is not diesel fuel, it is a unitary fuel which consists of propylene glycol dinitrate, dibutyl sebacinate and 2-nitrodiphenylamine.
    Used in torpedoes, for example Mk.46 or Mk.48.

    Domestic analogue - Pronit, GOST RV 9120-002-2011
    Today it is used in torpedoes "Physicist".
    1. ANB
      ANB April 29 2020 02: 25 New
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      In in. Right Just in an article about torpedoes I read about Otto 2. And I forgot something.
      In our thermal 298 and 243 fuel is kerosene and a separate oxidizer. In 243 oxygen, in the thick - hydrogen peroxide.
      Only then the question is: what is the best way to extract hydrogen from a mixture of fuel with an oxidizing agent in order to search for an oxidizing agent again? In addition to the fact that, most likely this Otto 2 is never cheap. Isn’t it easier to use it directly, as in a dashboard?
      1. timokhin-aa April 29 2020 09: 04 New
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        So in VNEU there is a reforming of marine diesel fuel, and not Otto 2. Hydrogen is "pulled out" from it.
        Otto2 is toxic in itself, like Pronit, plus there are cyanides in the exhaust during combustion. I can hardly imagine such a thing as a submarine fuel.
        1. ANB
          ANB April 29 2020 09: 06 New
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          The article is written about Otto 2.
          1. timokhin-aa April 29 2020 09: 07 New
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            This is simply a mistake.
  13. Gust April 28 2020 21: 34 New
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    For us, a submarine with VNEU should not become an end in itself. Why not first define the tasks of such a DPL and already do the VNEU for them?
    In essence the issue. A trivial calculation shows that 150-200 t plus displacement allow you to place LIABs. This ensures the same range of underwater travel as for VNEU. From the advantages compared to VNEU:
    1. No need for liquid oxygen (resp. No coastal infrastructure needed).
    2. No need for large-scale R&D.
    3. No add. compartments - all behind a sturdy case.
    4. Full underwater power is provided.
    5. Easily integrates into existing projects of DPL.
    6. Head submarines can be delivered to the fleet in 1-2 years.
    7. Complete silence - no circulation pumps, regasifiers, stirling, turbines, etc.
    8. High combat stability - external batteries as elements of a passive PTZ.
    9. Independence from oxygen plants and logistics of cryogrucks.
    10. No additional training or staffing of specialists БЧ-5.
    1. Cyril G ... April 28 2020 21: 51 New
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      No need to chase the fancy VNEU, I would go along the road with an additional small-sized nuclear power plant of a thermal emission type Topaz type. (It seems that they are correctly called.)
      That is, an easily removable battery charging reactor is our solution to the problem.
  14. Peter is not the first April 28 2020 22: 07 New
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    "
    “When 1 liter of bioethanol is burned, the same amount of CO2 is emitted as the amount of fuel burned. Therefore, such an installation will be“ bubbling ”.”

    Informative!
    Firstly, it turns out that bioethanol burns without an oxidizing agent - oxygen, which is needed at least twice as much as fuel (for diesel fuel, 1 kg of fuel requires 2,8 kg of oxygen). Although this of course is not obvious from the paragraph of the article that I cited, it is not said about oxygen.
    Secondly, even if we assume that oxygen is not necessary for combustion, even then it turns out that since the volume is the same, the density of bioethanol and the resulting combustion products, at atmospheric pressure, is the same! winked
    But if you still remember that oxygen is necessary for combustion, and it is more necessary in volume than fuel, then it leaves the article, and of course from my thoughts that the density of combustion products is three times higher than the density of fuel.
    Note that in the end I stopped writing about bioethanol, and wrote "fuel", since it would turn out about the same for bioethanol and diesel fuel.
    I wonder where the author got information for the third paragraph of the shortcomings.
    1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 02: 26 New
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      Quote: Peter is not the first
      I wonder where the author got information for the third paragraph of the shortcomings.

      The article "What are the pros and cons of bioethanol" Alexander Ageev, February 28, 2008.
    2. ANB
      ANB April 29 2020 02: 28 New
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      The author generally does not understand where he got it.
      That forgets about the oxidizing agent. No one thinks what to do with carbon or social after the release of hydrogen.
      That liquid oxygen was going to be stored on pl.
      1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 11: 07 New
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        Quote: ANB
        The author generally does not understand where he got it.

        Everything is exclusively from the open press, including and french.
        Quote: ANB
        That forgets about the oxidizing agent. No one thinks what to do with carbon or social after the release of hydrogen.
        That liquid oxygen was going to be stored on pl.

        If it does not bother you, then delve into the principle of operation of VNEU, it is also AIP:

        More information on the operation steps of the FC2G AIP installation can be found here:
        https://www.naval.com.br/blog/2019/09/07/o-aip-fc2g-do-naval-group-esta-pronto-para-navegar/
        1. ANB
          ANB April 29 2020 11: 33 New
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          Well. The circuit has oxygen. And hydrogen is used, not a hydrocarbon. When hydrogen is released from any hydrocarbon, carbon remains. Either in pure form or in the form of oxide. And where to put this good on the square?
          1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 14: 47 New
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            You didn’t bother to look at the link. It's a pity.
            The bosom, schematically (see photo at the beginning of the article), on the fingers:
            The FC2G AIR installation consists of 2 sections: oxygen (contains O2 for AIP and atmospheric regeneration on the PL submarine) and energy (consists of 4 elements of the system: reformer, replaceable column reactor, set of cleanable membranes and PEM AIR (Proton )
            Installation works in stages.
            Stage 1. The reformer comes diz. fuel (DT), oxygen (O2) (from cylinders where it is stored in cryogenic form) and water vapor. The result is a synthetic gas (SG) with a high content of hydrogen (H2).
            2. stage. Column, shear reaction. Increased H2 yield and carbon monoxide (CO) conversion. The reaction starts: Н2О + СГ - СО is reduced to СО2 and removed. From Н2О - Н2 goes to the SG.
            3 stage. A set of membranes. H2 purification on proton exchange membranes consisting of a unique alloy (know-how). Extraction of H2 from the SG. H2 goes to fuel cells.
            4th stage. PEM AIR - fuel cells - charged particles are extracted from Н2 and О2, electric current is produced.
            - Residual gas (CO2 and DT vapors that emitted H2) are removed to the sea.
            - The steam from the unit recirculates during the production of H2.
            The whole cycle.
            1. ANB
              ANB April 29 2020 15: 51 New
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              Look. In your description, there is a CO2 output and the need for oxygen. What I said from the very beginning.
              Questions: where to put CO2 and where to store oxygen. As I understand it, in large numbers.
            2. ANB
              ANB April 29 2020 15: 53 New
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              If CO2 is sent to water, then how does this fundamentally differ from the operation of a diesel engine under water when there is an oxygen supply on board?
              1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 16: 03 New
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                Acoustic portrait. The roar of a diesel engine cannot be compared with VNEU on an ECG.
                1. ANB
                  ANB April 29 2020 16: 10 New
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                  So about the noise, then we are not talking about advertising. All type salt is non-volatile.
                  If the power of the source corresponds to the power of the diesel, then why not just use oxygen from the atmosphere for the process?
                  Such an installation on the surface would be even easier to implement.
                  There are no problems with waste, and oxygen storage is easier to organize. But why not? Or is the power and efficiency of the installation too low?
                  1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 16: 21 New
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                    Quote: ANB
                    atmospheric oxygen for the process?

                    Not a submariner? Do not understand what it means to hang on the periscope in modern conditions?
                    AIP is needed to replenish the supply of electric power in AB under water. Because at 80% density, the cap has one thought in his head - when it will be possible to knock out AB ... And that means you need to go upstairs, for air for the DW. What secrecy is there to talk about?
                    1. ANB
                      ANB April 29 2020 17: 39 New
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                      Submariner. 667bdr, K455. We didn’t have such a problem. wink
                      But this scheme does not solve the problems of non-floatation of a non-atomic square. And he will add new ones. Why am I writing that it’s easier to install a reactor with such a crap. Although he is a steam engine in fact.
                      Or akb is more powerful.
                      1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 18: 08 New
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                        Quote: ANB
                        easier to put the reactor.

                        In the history of the fleet, such a VAU-6 installation was called. We still called her Chamomile. But she never went into service with the DPL, although it was maintenance-free outside the strong corps. There is a transport option on the satellite, but for a 4-5 Kt displacement it will be clearly not enough. Our tormented direct electrolysis of diesel fuel, so that from the chemical reaction to get directly el. But something went wrong ... withered. Other units were transported several times to Sarov, but this was not enough for our naval commanders. Therefore, we are now expecting from Malachite his single gas turbine (already nicknamed witty "Malachite Box"). There is not enough money chronically, and the capitalists are not in a hurry to develop capitalists on the initiative ...
                        So, we have what we have with unclear prospects.
                        But.
                      2. ANB
                        ANB April 29 2020 22: 25 New
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                        In the 80s, the idea of ​​an MHD generator was actively promoted. Stalled. Direct production of electricity by the chemical reaction of fuel and an oxidizing agent is an old interesting task. Because through the mechanics of the efficiency is low, noisy, wear, repair. But there is no beautiful compact solution yet. If it were, the ground and surface ICE would be the first to replace it.
                        For example, on a Belaz, there is a diesel generator that transmits current to electric motors in wheels.
                        In the USSR there was still a chance to solve the problem somehow, it will be harder to go with capitalism.
  • Chaldon48 April 28 2020 22: 29 New
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    Is there a shortage of chemical engineers in Russia?
  • IC
    IC April 28 2020 23: 30 New
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    Very competent article. It is important that the new technologies for the movement of submarines, starting with Project 212, are being implemented step by step on combat submarines. Non-nuclear boats are very effective in certain areas of hostilities. It seems that the age of traditional diesel-electric submarines is drawing to a close.
  • acetophenon April 29 2020 00: 00 New
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    Nevertheless, it seems to me that all these VNEU are quackery. They won’t give a normal move, you need a regular diesel engine and super-capacious, albeit expensive, lithium-polymer batteries. They must be brought to mind. And the only standing VNEU is a nuclear reactor with a steam turbine. And you need to work on bringing it to a reasonable size and cost. And do not attach legs to the snake, as the Chinese say in such cases.
    1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 14: 50 New
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      Quote: acetophenon
      Nevertheless, it seems to me that all these VNEU are quackery.

      It is unlikely that the capitalists began to spend money on quackery!
      Moreover, this "quackery" is bought well ...
    2. gridasov 5 May 2020 16: 16 New
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      This is one of the most sensible decisions. In addition, it is very easy to combine the reactor and the turbine.
  • Nitarius April 29 2020 06: 25 New
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    the author .. if they don’t tell you something))) this does not mean that this is not)))
    1. Boa kaa April 29 2020 11: 21 New
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      Nikolaich, something, of course it is. For example, "Crystal-27", but it does not suit the naval, because works at 60% of the ordered (declared) capacity.
      But how does the cart go further, while it is silent.
      Sources quit when they reached the age limit; there was no one to find out from. I have to use what they print.
      I'm sorry.
      1. agond April 29 2020 13: 31 New
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        It was a good idea for VNEU to apply the Alexander. Kalina cycle, which is used in geothermal power plants (there is a high efficiency with a small temperature difference of + 18 * + 80 * C) and a real breakthrough of VNEU if you can realize two parallel cycles with different working fluids , in one monothermal installation, according to the method of Alexander Yaili.
  • S WITH April 29 2020 13: 31 New
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    what prevents the Varshavyanki from dailing just to install oxygen cylinders? they will power the diesel, and if the diesel is noisy, then you can use metal-air batteries, where cheap aluminum is used as the metal of the anode! it is oxidized by oxygen from the cylinders and current is released, and the formed aluminum oxide precipitates, it seems that they are pulled from the VNEU Ross KB in order to cut as much as possible the headstock, deceiving the RF Ministry of Defense
  • Kostadinov April 29 2020 13: 33 New
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    Quote: ser56
    Based on the fact that VNEU is usually 250 kW, you need 25-30 blocks, the mass of the blocks is about 30 tons, well, all sorts of constructive pieces, protection - you get 150 tons ...

    If the boat is smaller, 100-150 kW may be enough. Less speed and less noise.
  • Narak-zempo April 29 2020 16: 17 New
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    And why is such a time-tested VNEU as the Walter engine forgotten?
    1. agond April 30 2020 12: 27 New
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      Quote: S C
      you can use metal-air batteries, where cheap aluminum is used as the metal of the anode!

      Sodium-like batteries can also use sodium, in general, sodium is a very promising fuel, there are a lot of sodium chloride salts, sodium is produced by electrolysis at temperatures of about 600 * C (and aluminum about 1000 * C) with an electrolysis cost of 10 kW per 1 kg. metal, the truth has to be stored in kerosene, but if it is cooled very much, it will lose its chemical activity.
  • Grigory_78 April 30 2020 14: 18 New
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    Quote: BoA KAA
    Quote: acetophenon
    Nevertheless, it seems to me that all these VNEU are quackery.

    It is unlikely that the capitalists began to spend money on quackery!
    Moreover, this "quackery" is bought well ...

    Excuse me, but your statement came out very contradictory logically. If "quackery" is well bought - for any capitalist this is a completely self-sufficient reason to invest in it, quackery is it really or not. A good example of American air defense, in particular the Patriot complex with all its shortcomings. And still, buyers are still on it.
    I didn’t want to be the next "discoverer of America", but could not resist.
    With all due respect.
    1. Boa kaa 2 May 2020 13: 10 New
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      Quote: Gregory_78
      If "quackery" is well bought -

      "Great, Gregory!
      - Fine, Konstantin! " (with)

      A colleague, if you have not noticed that in the second case, “CHEK” is enclosed in quotation marks, and this changes the concept to the opposite. Quotation marks seem to say that this is far from quackery, but something else ...
      Did you not learn Russian at school. I do not ask at allegory, the so-called Aesopian language ... bully
  • Vladimir SHajkin April 30 2020 20: 39 New
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    I would like our ours not to stop in their research, but to whom the breakthrough thought comes first, this mystery is great and divine.
    1. agond April 30 2020 21: 05 New
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      Instead of oxygen in fuel cells, one could try to use chlorine + sodium, in chlorine the boiling point is only -35 * С (in oxygen -183 * С),
      1. Golovan Jack April 30 2020 21: 11 New
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        Quote: agond
        Instead of oxygen in fuel cells, one could try to use chlorine ...

        Ummm ... with oxygen, if something happens, you can breathe ... but chlorine - well, it won’t work out request
  • Andrew Matseevsky 1 May 2020 11: 42 New
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    Che-go ??? For diesel, the cetane number is not the octane value. There are multi-fuel diesel engines that can run on different fuels with minimal adjustment - in diesel fuel, kerosene, gasoline and alcohol. No way alcohol in a diesel engine will blow it, because it ignites at the time of injection.
  • acetophenon 30 May 2020 11: 41 New
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    Quote: Chaldon48
    Is there a shortage of chemical engineers in Russia?

    And just engineers.
    And even more so - chemists.
    A significant number of graduates do not work in their field for a single day.
    And those that come, in terms of knowledge, are slightly higher than the apparatchik. And skills ... but that's okay
    The bad news is that most are handshakes.