Military Review

What did we know about them? Russian intelligence about the Mongols

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В previous article we examined the working methods of strategic intelligence of the Mongol empire.


Let's try to analyze what the Russian princes knew about the upcoming war and the likely enemy on the eve of the invasion.

So, in 1235, at the general Kurultai of the leaders of the Mongol Empire, a decision was made to carry out a campaign to the west - to Europe, with the aim of expanding the Juchi ulus. In 1236, the united forces of the empire during the lightning campaign finally defeated the Volga Bulgaria, seven years before that restrained the Mongols' onslaught to the west. All its large cities were destroyed, most of them were never recreated in their former place. The empire came close to the borders of Russia.

The Russian princes, of course, could not help but be aware of the events taking place directly near the borders of their possessions, but we are not aware of any intelligence or diplomatic measures that could be carried out by them in order to protect their lands. Nevertheless, the analysis of documents of those times, in particular, the notes of Julian of Hungary mentioned in the previous article, as well as the analysis of indirect annals, allow us to conclude that such events were carried out, although not with absolute success.

Travels of Julian of Hungary


The records of Julian of Hungary are especially interesting, since the last time he visited Russia just before the invasion began and personally communicated in Suzdal with Grand Duke Yuri Vsevolodovich. The mission, by the way, was very peculiar: Julian was looking for ethnic relatives in eastern Europe, namely pagan Hungarians, who, according to legend, remained in their ancestral home, somewhere in the region of the Ural Mountains, which he was going to convert to Christianity. As part of this mission, he made two trips.

The first is in 1235-1236. through Constantinople, Matarch (Tmutarakan, modern Taman) and further up the Don and Volga north to the Volga Bulgaria, where, probably, in the territory of modern Bashkiria, I found those whom I was looking for: people who speak the “Hungarian” language, whom he he understood perfectly and who understood him. Julian returned from his first trip to Europe through Vladimir, Ryazan and Galich and at the beginning of 1237 appeared with a report to the Hungarian King Bela IV.

His second journey began in the same 1237, in the fall. This time, he decided to head towards his goal directly through the Russian lands, apparently, this way seemed to him safer. However, having arrived in Suzdal, he learned that all territories east of the Volga, including the entire Volga Bulgaria, had already been captured and brutally ravaged by the Mongols, and that his mission to convert the "pagan Hungarians" to Christianity was no longer relevant. If Julian returned to Hungary with the usual route through Ryazan, then he could miss the Mongols literally in days, since the Mongol invasion of Ryazan lands began in November 1237, and Ryazan itself was besieged in December.

Researchers highly appreciate the reliability of the notes of Julian of Hungary, because they are executed in a dry, "official" style and are purely business reports about his trips, recalling in style (especially the report of the second trip, the most informative) intelligence reports.

What Monk Julian Told


Julian himself did not meet with the Mongols, unlike the Plano Karpini, and could only get all the information about them from a third person, namely from the Russian prince Yuri Vsevolodovich, with whom he spoke literally on the eve of the invasion, in the late autumn of 1237. To a large extent, he the notes are a reflection of how the Russians imagined the Mongols and what they knew and thought of them. Here is what Julian writes about the Mongols:

I will tell you the truth about the war as follows. They say that they shoot (meaning the Mongols. - Auth.) Further than other peoples can. At the first collision in the war, their arrows, as they say, do not fly, but as if pouring downpour. Swords and spears, they are rumored to fight less skillfully. They build their structure in such a way that at the head of ten people there is one Tatar, and one hundred over one hundred people. This was done with such cunning reckoning that the incoming scouts could not hide among them, and if in the war it happened to somehow retire to any of them, so that you could replace him without delay, and people gathered from different languages ​​and peoples, could not commit any betrayal. In all the conquered kingdoms, they immediately kill princes and nobles, who inspire fears that they might someday put up any resistance. They are suitable for the battle of soldiers and settlers, having armed, they are sent against the will in battle ahead of themselves. The other villagers, less able to fight, are left to cultivate the land, and the wives, daughters and relatives of those people who were driven into battle and who were killed are divided among those left to cultivate the land, appointing each twelve or more, and oblige those people from now on called Tatars. But to the soldiers who are driven into battle, even if they fight well and win, gratitude is not great; if they die in battle, there is no concern for them, but if they retreat in battle, they are mercilessly killed by the Tatars. Therefore, when fighting, they prefer to die in battle than under the swords of the Tatars, and fight braver so as not to live longer but die sooner.

As you can see, the information set forth by Julian is quite consistent with our historical materials, although in some cases they commit inaccuracies. The art of the Mongols in archery is noted, but their troops are insufficiently prepared for hand-to-hand combat. They also noted their tough organization on the principle of ten, pursuing goals related to counterintelligence (so that incoming intelligence officers could not hide among them), which also tells us that the Mongols themselves practiced such intelligence. The well-known practice of the Mongols to include representatives of conquered peoples in their army was also noted. That is, we can conclude that the Russian princes still had a general idea of ​​who they were dealing with in the person of the Mongols.

But the very next phrase in Julian’s letter sheds light on one of the reasons for the catastrophe that Russia befell literally weeks after the conversation between Julian and Yuri Vsevolodovich.

They do not attack the fortified castles, but at first they devastate the country and rob the people and, having gathered the people of that country, they drive to battle to besiege his castle.

The Russian prince, until the very end, did not understand that he was faced not just with the next steppe horde, but with an organized and excellently managed army, which was able to storm well-fortified cities. If the prince had information about the Mongols having advanced (at that time) siege equipment and competent personnel to manage it, perhaps he would have chosen a different defense strategy for his lands, not relying on the possibility of delaying the invasion by the need for the Mongols to carry out numerous long sieges of Russian cities . Of course, he knew that such a technique existed: the capture of Yuryev was already taking place in his memory, where the Germans used the most advanced siege technique of that time. About this he should have been told the very only Russian defender Yuryev left by the Germans alive, sent by them to him with news of the capture of the city. However, Yuri Vsevolodovich simply could not assume the presence of such equipment in the Mongols. If even the Bulgarian cities showed fierce resistance to the Mongols, forcing them to use heavy siege equipment, the prince could even change or adjust his decisions at the last moment, but, unfortunately, the Bulgarian cities did not show serious resistance to the Mongols, for example, their capital Bulgar was abandoned by the inhabitants even before the arrival of the Batumen tumens.

Julian’s next phrase also speaks more about poor Russian intelligence on the eve of the invasion:

Their troops do not write you anything about the size of their entire army, except that from all the kingdoms they conquered, they drive warriors who are ready for battle in front of them.

That is, the Russians did not even imagine how many enemy soldiers they would encounter, although they generally outlined the location of the Mongol troops, because Julian mentions somewhat higher in his letter:

Now, being on the borders of Russia, we closely learned the real truth that all the troops going to Western countries are divided into four parts. One part near the Etil River (Volga) on the borders of Russia from the eastern edge approached Suzdal. Another part in a southerly direction was already attacking the borders of Ryazan, another Russian principality. The third part stopped against the Don River, near the Voronezh castle, also a Russian principality. As the Russians themselves, the Hungarians and Bulgars, who had fled before them, verbally passed on to us, they are waiting for the land, rivers and swamps to freeze with the coming winter, after which it will be easy for the whole set of Tatars to plunder all of Russia, the whole Russian country.

It is noteworthy that the Russians, having the correct idea of ​​the deployment of the troops of the Mongols, of their plans to attack Russia immediately after the freezing, had absolutely no idea of ​​their strength and equipment. This may indicate that the Russian princes and governors did not neglect intelligence at all, but were limited only to military intelligence and the questioning of refugees, having absolutely no intelligence information about the enemy.

I think it would not be an exaggeration to say that in terms of intelligence, as, indeed, and many other aspects of military activity, the Mongol Empire was ahead of Europe and Russia as its smallest by a few steps.

Conclusion


The last thing I would like to say is about where the “wild Mongols” came from with such deep and fundamental knowledge, skills that enabled them to get ahead of Europe so much.

It should be understood that in the XIII century. Europe was by no means the Europe that it will become in three centuries. That technical and technological superiority, which it will demonstrate centuries later, was just emerging (rather preparing to be born) in the crucible of numerous wars and conflicts of that time. The East, the Middle, and the Far, were at a much higher stage of cultural development. In fact, Europe was just a large peninsula on the northwestern edge of the inhabited oikumena, not too comfortable for life, not too developed industrially and culturally. One word - the outskirts of the world, nothing more.

China, which was the intellectual base for the Mongol Empire, far surpassed Europe in cultural and technical terms, and the same can be said about the countries of the Near and Middle East, conquered by the Mongols and included in the empire.

For clarity, to understand the difference in the levels of cultural development of Asia and Europe, we can compare the samples of literary work of representatives of one and the other part of the world.

Many readers, although they themselves do not suspect it, know a vivid example of the work of the Chinese poet, as well as the statesman Su Dong-po, or Su Shi, who lived in China in the 950th century. This is the song "Boat" performed by Konstantin Kinchev. Listen to the text of this song, it was written about XNUMX years ago, and then for comparison read the text “Songs of Roland” or “The Word of Igor’s Regiment”, written after a good hundred years on the other side of the globe. In no way would I like to belittle the artistic merits of both works, but the difference between them and the poetic works of a Chinese official seems so striking that it seems to be the best illustration of the thesis about the general lag of Europe from Asia during the Middle Ages.

The quotation from the famous treatise of the Chinese author Sun Tzu, “The Art of War”, is also not accidentally put out in the epigraph to this study (see the first part). The Mongols, having constant contact with China, undoubtedly realized the cultural superiority of the latter and, of course, were greatly influenced by it. Genghis Khan's military and political genius managed to direct the penetration of Chinese culture into the Mongolian environment along a somewhat peculiar path, but as a result this penetration was significantly accelerated and in the end was the very cementing force that managed to unite and subjugate the vast territory from the Pacific Ocean to the Danube and unite Carpathians.

And when the Mongolian tumens appeared on the fields of Europe, she started with horror not because the Mongols showed unprecedented cruelty (Europeans themselves were no less cruel to each other), not because there were so many of these Mongols (there were many but not terribly many), but because these same "savages", nomads demonstrated unattainable for Europeans discipline, unity, controllability, technical equipment and organization. They were just more civilized.
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How did they know everything? Mongolian intelligence on the eve of the invasion of Russia
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 06: 16 New
    13
    Michael my respect!
    Thanks for the long-awaited sequel and let me insert your five cents!
    The superiority of the state of Genghis Khan was determined by three factors:
    1. Tolerance, in some cases flirting with the spiritual elites of the enemy and at least non-interference in sacred affairs !!!
    2. Permanent mobilization of enemy resources. In fact, the absorption of everything new. The annals are directly reflected full of artisans (specialists)! The second aspect, the involvement of the enemy’s human resource in the armed forces, and so on!
    3. The patronage of trade. Apparently Timuchin was able to interest the merchants in the prospect of a unified Silk Road, or who thought of it.
    Otherwise, the effectiveness of the Tatars was in one thing - divide and conquer !!! Essentially stereotyped, but progressively for the 13th century!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Polymer
      Polymer April 25 2020 07: 05 New
      10
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Permanent mobilization of enemy resources. In fact, the absorption of everything new. The annals are directly reflected full of artisans (specialists)! The second aspect, the involvement of the enemy’s human resource in the armed forces, and so on!

      This later manifested the weakness of the Mongols as organizers. In fact, they didn’t create anything of their own, they took away by force and then mastered the enemy’s resources. Parasitic policies can only succeed in the short term. Therefore, by historical standards, the Mongol empire did not exist for very long.
      1. Errr
        Errr April 25 2020 07: 49 New
        +8
        From the text of the article:
        Genghis Khan's military and political genius managed to direct the penetration of Chinese culture into the Mongolian environment along a somewhat peculiar path, but as a result this penetration was significantly accelerated and in the end was the very cementing force that managed to unite and subjugate the vast territory from the Pacific Ocean to the Danube and unite Carpathians.
        This statement is a pure attraction of historical facts to Wishlist. The conquest of China by the Mongols almost coincided with the invasion of these to Russia. They simply did not have time to "absorb" the Chinese culture for the subsequent use of the latter in the confrontation with the Russian princes.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 25 2020 08: 08 New
          +4
          If the Tatars-educators really want, then the owl will stretch to the globe.

          About twelve years ago I read (in a cafe while waiting for a waiter) the opus of a certain "descendant of the Kipchaks", who in all seriousness proved that the Russian hut came from a certain Turkic "hut" laughing
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 08: 45 New
          13
          In military affairs, the absorption of Chinese culture consisted in the banal use of military specialists!
          1. Lannan Shi
            Lannan Shi April 25 2020 10: 23 New
            -6
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            In military affairs, the absorption of Chinese culture consisted in the banal use of military specialists!

            Laponka ... At the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, quite literate people, with a gymnasium course behind their backs, with a military school and service for 20-30 years, could not immediately "absorb" the idea of ​​a machine gun. Practically until 1918, they attacked either with support columns in four in a row, or in waves, according to the principle that they might run out of cartridges earlier than our zoldatik. But the Mongols .... They saw the moldy catapult of the Chinese, and rushed to absorb it. So the Mongols, too ... They have the last sheep ..... ummm .... pass, according to the intellect of Einstein, he hides. Only one thing is strange. Why did they come to Russia on horseback, and not landing bots of the "space-planet" class?
            By the way. there are such Kalmyk people. In principle, the same Mongols, view in profile. Can you tell me why they didn’t absorb the idea of ​​artillery, say? Did the absorber atrophy?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 10: 30 New
              14
              The Mongols felt the application of Chinese wunderwafels in their own skin!
              So, the question of the use of masters was logical!
              According to the guns, the tactics of Timuchin and Tokhtamysh are generally the same! But between them almost two centuries!
              So the Muslim Golden Horde is definitely not the Empire of Genghis Khan!

              Regarding the "little paws," let’s without familiarity!
              Regards, Kote!
              1. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi April 25 2020 10: 55 New
                -3
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                The Mongols felt the application of Chinese wunderwafels in their own skin!

                The Mongols could not feel the siege technique in their own skin. For it is applicable exclusively against fortresses. And historians repeat to us - the Mongols are a nomadic people. Well, a nomadic castle ... This is not even fantasy, it is already a systematic abuse of something from the list of drugs prohibited for free circulation.
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                By guns, tactics Timuchina

                Don't talk nonsense. She's in pain. The fantasy tactics of temuchin are feasible only when equipped with communications at the level of at least 40-50s, twentieth century. The described "Mongol" techniques, without mobile radio stations, observation of aerial reconnaissance and headquarters with maps, will lead to nothing, except for the organization of a grandiose mess. Practical experience. Take a horse for rent. Drive into a clear field. Well, pretend to be that same Temuchin and his messengers - as the only means of communication. First, try to look over the horizon with an eagle's gaze, and then timed the passage of orders.
                The only tactics that the steppe residents demonstrated in reality, from which we got real, documented descriptions, jumped, shot, then piled on the crowd. If they were able to push through the enemy, they drove him. If they could not overturn, then the legs are feet, for the enemy is already chasing and cutting invincible baguatres.
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri April 25 2020 11: 58 New
              12
              Quote: Lannan Shi
              But the Mongols .... They saw a moldy catapult of the Chinese, and rushed to absorb it. So, too, the Mongols ... They have the last sheep ..... umm .... a pass, according to the intelligence of Einstein.

              Kisonka, you simply do not know much about male psychology!
              Let's say you and your friends went to a neighboring state, in order to do a little horse tourism. We've been "touring" for a week, but there is still no Geshevt ... And here is the city in front of you. And you really want to get into it (after all, there is wine and women and you can walk for 3 days without restraining yourself in anything ... laughing ) And malicious Aborigines sat on the walls and, because of their bitterness, they do not want to allow you to these joys of life. And the walls are high ... But you need to punish goons, because you can’t tolerate this, and women and wine again ...
              Here, any sheep willy-nilly wakes up inventive talent, or at least an acute desire honestly uh ... to absorb some thread that can stray these walls. laughing
              1. Lannan Shi
                Lannan Shi April 25 2020 12: 26 New
                -4
                Quote: HanTengri
                Let's say you and your friends went to a neighboring state with the aim of doing a little horse riding.

                And on the way is the great wall of China. Which, according to official storytellers, even during the Jin dynasty stretched more than 10.000 km.
                Quote: HanTengri
                And here is the city before you.

                Nope ... Before us is still the same great wall of China, along it you have to tour for six months before it ends. And as a result, you go on a trip to Tibet.
                Quote: HanTengri
                Here, any sheep willy-nilly wakes up inventive talent

                And he will go to cut the nomad’s neighbor. For he definitely has rams, and they can be sold to the inhabitants of the prison, but the assault ladder and catapult, for the nomad, lie in approximately the same plane of life as the MLRS with a strategic bomber. That is, even stumble upon a Mongol on them .... The first one will be sorted for firewood, the second for arrowheads. Even in our own time, such as an enlightened time, having found an orphan construction made of luminium, 99% will surrender it in color. And 1% on racks for a greenhouse will start up. Although all of us with secondary, minimum secondary, education, we read fiction, and in principle we could have assumed that this was not just a bunch of nishtyaks, but even an intergalactic portal.
                Quote: HanTengri
                acute desire honestly uh ... soak up some thread that is able to dissolve these walls

                They are these stray only in a dream and see. That very wall is great. And behind it there are still walls. Urban. And then again. Arsenal. And in order to get to the stray bastards, you must first gnaw at least three walls. A tooth is not enough. All Mongols have ever lived on earth. And if there was no great front garden ... And the Mongols walked freely to China ... Well this is the New Volga and Fomenkovism. Here it is necessary to decide. Or are you for an official history, and then the Mongols could not get into China because of the presence of a great fence. Or you’re a Norwegian, But then searching for wall-to-wall guns in China was just as promising as ICBMs and nuclear submarines in Australian aborigines.
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri April 25 2020 21: 31 New
                  +8
                  Quote: Lannan Shi
                  And in order to get to the stray bastards, you must first gnaw at least three walls.

                  To get to the wall-hung guns, oddly enough, you just need to order them to an intelligent engineer. And the Mongols, after the conquest of Western Xia, were no longer in short supply.
                  1. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi April 25 2020 22: 25 New
                    -6
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    And they are with the Mongols, after the conquest of Western Xia,


                    Suggest what is it? This is a great Chinese front garden. What is this photo for? probably to the fact that this is the north of Guangxi province. Those. Xia cities were hiding behind this picket fence yes Getting around it is problematic. I specially chose a photo where slides are visible, against which the fence rests. I must say right away that the Mongolian horse is not quite like a mountain goat. Can’t climb a steep wall yes And in order to get Xia engineers, Genghis had to first get Xia engineers, to break the wall behind which Xia engineers hid yes
                    Do not deny the great Chinese barrage band, do not fall into the sin of Fomenkovism, my dear, do not join the New Hronolaz heresy. lol
                    Do you understand the charm of the official history of China? She is not friends with her head. Absolutely. That is in no way. Any item denies one or even a couple of others lol
                    1. Svarog51
                      Svarog51 April 26 2020 07: 41 New
                      +6
                      Why break through the wall? A dozen strong children climbed up in a dark night, slit the throats of the guards. They whistled for help, another couple of hundred to the right - to the left they moved the captured area apart. How many guards are there? And then at least force the stairs, at least build a mound, so that the horses get over. The wall is not a panacea. Moreover, she is not the only one. A. V. Suvorov Ishmael took it, and there was a higher wall. A breakthrough in a narrow section of a fortified defense - and then expansion and strike in depth. There is nothing new here, and in those days there was nothing. Troy also fell due to the carelessness of the guards. Nobody broke through its walls. Actually, this is me to the fact that no one was worthy to write "The passage of Genghis Khan through the Chinese wall." Something like that. yes
                    2. ORINCH
                      ORINCH April 27 2020 01: 02 New
                      +3
                      Guangxi, for your information, is located in the extreme south of China, near the border with Vietnam. The photo that you show most likely refers to Gansu. These are two big differences. And your judgments are all about the same, on the principle I heard a ring, but I don’t know where it is.
                      Genghis Khan in Northern China fought with the states of yesterday's nomads - the Tanguts and the Jurchen, for whom the Great Wall was irrelevant, since it was located in the depths of their territories. He actively attracted external enemies and disloyal elements within these states - the Uyghurs of Idicutism and the Eastern Uyghurs against the Tangut Western Xia, the Tanguts, the state of Song, the Khitan - against the state of the Jurchen Jin. One must think that among these peoples with a highly developed urban culture, he could find the military specialists he needed to besiege and storm the cities. As a rule, Genghis Khan delivered the main blow during the interregnum, when the monarchical state is most vulnerable.
                      In addition, the Mongol tribes fought actively as mercenaries in the service of the Jin emperor. Temujin himself was such a mercenary and had the general rank of chauthuri, and his ally Togoril generally received the title of van and is known in historiography as Wang Khan. Wang, for a moment, is the rank of a member of the imperial family, similar to the title "Grand Duke" in the Russian Empire. It is not known for certain whether Genghis Khan fought in the south, his front was on the northern borders of Jin, but the same Onguts probably had experience of participating in wars in confined China, since for a long time, since the 8-9 centuries, they served various dynasties of China.
                  2. Lannan Shi
                    Lannan Shi April 25 2020 22: 53 New
                    -6
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    And they are with the Mongols, after the conquest of Western Xia

                    And by the way. Already quoted once, but it is not difficult for me to repeat.
                    Usually, each new dynasty, after its establishment on the throne, created a commission of professional historians, whose task was to write the history of the previous dynasty. All such stories are traditionally there are 24. They were compiled by highly qualified specialists who strove to objectively set forth the historical events of the previous dynasty and lead the reader to conclusions that were supposed to confirm the legitimacy of the ruling dynasty. Naturally, the proof of the legitimacy of the new dynasty sometimes required a new interpretation and events of the distant past. In this case, the members of these commissions (they were not just historians, but officials in the history department!) Dissected the historical material in the right spirit

                    History of China; Textbook / Edited by A.V. Meliksetova. 2nd ed., Rev. and add. - M.: Publishing House of Moscow State University, Publishing House "Higher School", 2002. - 736 p.
                    Do you understand? They tell you openly that the official history of China, since the time of the hypothetical Mongols, has been rewritten at least two, and possibly all four times. This is a completely official statement, a completely official historian. And after that .... Refer to some Chinese documents .. Ches word, I don’t even know. Is this stupidity frank, or no less frank cynicism. When a notorious fake, with an honest face, they pass off as a historical document ....
                    Dixi.
                    1. ORINCH
                      ORINCH April 27 2020 01: 31 New
                      +3
                      [quote = Lannan Shi] You are plainly told that the official history of China, since the time of the hypothetical Mongols, has been rewritten at least two, and possibly all four times. This is a completely official statement, a completely official historian. [/ quote]
                      Where did you see it in the text? It says that the dynastic history of the previous dynasty was compiled in such a way as to show the legitimacy of the current customer. That is, if you do not understand what was written, Yuan compiled the story of Jin in such a way as to show the inevitability of the fall of the latter and the rise of Yuan. Ming justified the fall of Yuan and its rise to power, Qing, respectively, painted the death of Ming and asserted its own legitimacy.

                      It does not say that Qing rewrote Yuan-shi twice or four times, it does not say that Qing at least rewrote Yuan-shi. Where you got this is completely incomprehensible.
                      Also in the phrase,
                      [quote] proof of the legitimacy of a new dynasty sometimes required a new interpretation and events of the distant past [.quote] nothing is said about the distortion of facts, only about the interpretation necessary for the customer. That is, the fact of their defeat from Zhu Yuanzhang’s troops was considered by the Mongols as a gang revolt and a military coup, and Mines submitted it as the loss of the heavenly mandate by the northern barbarians and the acquisition of it by the emperor Hongyu.
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 April 25 2020 13: 07 New
                11
                Who uses cat calls to apple maids?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 25 2020 13: 28 New
                  +7
                  Bravo, Sergey! Irish or Welsh?
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 April 25 2020 13: 37 New
                    +9
                    “We had a German interpreter. He needs to be translated, but he does not knit a bast ”(c).
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 13: 50 New
                      +9
                      "And Captain Mikhailov, having visited Greece, was about to translate Homer. But, carried away by A. Olenina, he gave up this venture." Let, he says, Gnedich translates. I'll sing the orange tree "" (F. Bulgarin "Notes on Russian Literature") laughing
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 13: 53 New
                        +9
                        "Oh, doesn’t command folk experience
                        Fall in love with the long and thin ”(c).
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 10 New
                        +6
                        "Do not marry chickens,
                        They are thick as sausages "(C)
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 14: 21 New
                        +7
                        “Marrying a widow -
                        The old husband will come.
                        Marrying a smart girl -
                        He will turn his head ”(c).
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 25 New
                        +7
                        "I'm getting married ... I'm getting married! What kind of toys can there be ?!" (FROM)
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 14: 49 New
                        +7
                        “Okay, I'll ask my horse to bash” (c).
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 15: 01 New
                        +7
                        "I'm hammered to horses,
                        What did not disappoint
                        Bowed down
                        To the very ground "(C)
                      7. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 15: 36 New
                        +7
                        “The horse said, looking at the camel:
                        “What a giant horse is ok” ”(c).
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 17: 57 New
                        +5
                        "The camel has two humps,
                        Because life is a struggle "
                      9. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 18: 40 New
                        +4
                        “The giraffe is big,
                        He knows better ”(c).
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 18: 47 New
                        +5
                        "Picking flowers is easy and simple.
                        Small children "(C)
                      11. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 18: 51 New
                        +5
                        "Don't tease the dogs,
                        Do not chase cats ”(c).
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 11 New
                        +6
                        "The dog is biting,
                        Only from the life of a dog "(C)
                      13. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 19 New
                        +7
                        “But only horses
                        They know how to fly wonderfully ”(c).
                      14. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 28 New
                        +7
                        "I am a little horse
                        And my life is not sweet "(C)
                      15. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 31 New
                        +4
                        “Jump ponies at the zoo
                        Day after day, circle after circle ”(c).
                      16. bubalik
                        bubalik April 25 2020 19: 33 New
                        +6
                        Far far away
                        A young horse galloped into the field.
                        (C) tongue
                      17. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 53 New
                        +7
                        “This is the Barbariki” (c).

                        My petty figure skating program had this music.
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 37 New
                      +7
                      "It's a habit - to move forward, not overtaking anyone to be the first always,
                      Be the first, like the one that drags behind him,
                      There are only rails and wires ahead. "(C)
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 57 New
                      +5
                      “I take a blue trolleybus on the go,
                      At the last, at random ”(c).
                    4. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 20: 17 New
                      +6
                      "She ran away from me again,
                      The last train,
                      And I'm on the sleepers, walking on the sleepers
                      I'll go home as usual "(C)
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 25 2020 20: 49 New
                      +5
                      “I'll sit on a fast train, sit on a long train
                      Nightingale "(c).
                    6. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 20: 56 New
                      +5
                      "And after two stations, everyone, khana, arrived,
                      It's a home for you here, but it's like the first snow to me "(C)
                    7. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 25 2020 22: 42 New
                      +4
                      “Ah, my hotel, ah the hotel” (c).
                    8. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 22: 48 New
                      +4
                      "Okay, road, and I run away,
                      Hold, buddy, tail gun,
                      Do not forget, come to the light,
                      Happily. I'm in "Warsaw", on the sixth "(C)
                    9. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 25 2020 22: 53 New
                      +5
                      “The old man brews black coffee,
                      To cope with the problem of the world "(c).
                    10. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 25 2020 22: 57 New
                      +5
                      "Let's drink from grief, where is the mug?
                      The heart will become more cheerful! "(C)
                    11. Svarog51
                      Svarog51 April 26 2020 07: 43 New
                      +7
                      "It's not beer that kills people,
                      Water is killing people! "(C)
                    12. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 26 2020 07: 45 New
                      +4
                      "Scuba divers are not a game!" (C)
                    13. Svarog51
                      Svarog51 April 26 2020 07: 47 New
                      +6
                      "Some spotted pikes
                      Caught forty! "(C)
                    14. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 26 2020 07: 50 New
                      +3
                      "And you catch, you catch a crocodile,
                      On bloodworms, bloodworms, bloodworms "(C)
                    15. Svarog51
                      Svarog51 April 26 2020 07: 52 New
                      +5
                      "Hunting or fishing,
                      So that mermaids do not seem
                      Never drink vodka in the heat. "(C)
                    16. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave April 26 2020 07: 56 New
                      +5
                      "Monkeys, palms, baobabs,
                      And the wife of the French ambassador "(C)
                    17. Svarog51
                      Svarog51 April 26 2020 08: 00 New
                      +7
                      "I'm hammered to horses,
                      What did not disappoint
                      Bowed down
                      To the ground.
                      Threw off the cart
                      Led about
                      God save you horses
                      That I'm going whole! "(C)
                    18. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 26 2020 10: 36 New
                      +3
                      "Just yesterday to me
                      Sent in an envelope
                      Giraffe, very good-natured in appearance ”(c).
                    19. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 26 2020 12: 20 New
                      +3
                      Ayda guys, well done guys !!!
                      Regards, Sincerely Your Cat!
                    20. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 21: 56 New
                      0
                      "Just yesterday to me
                      Sent in an envelope
                      Giraffe, very good-natured in appearance ”(c).

                      "Dear Broadcast!
                      On Saturday, almost crying
                      The whole Kanatchikova cottage
                      Gathered at the screen ... "
                      drinks what's wrong? good
                    21. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 26 2020 23: 30 New
                      +1
                      "Or will I be diagnosed
                      Or there will be a verdict ”(c).
  2. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 25 2020 23: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    "I am a little horse
    And my life is not sweet "(C)

    But I cost a lot of money ... laughing
  3. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 25 2020 23: 29 New
    +3
    "... or a smuggler is crawling along a narrow perch over an abyss, of course, it's honorable. People earn money!" (C)
  4. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 26 2020 01: 12 New
    +1
    And some do not walk on paths, they consume them ... fellow
  5. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 26 2020 01: 17 New
    +4
    "-Hello, hello! I wanted to order a lane. What do you mean" how many grams "??? Isn't this bowling?"
  6. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 26 2020 01: 23 New
    +1
    Colombian President arrives in Ukraine
    He has bread and salt at the ladder
    He is from a salt shaker a pinch of bread
    He twisted the bill, sniffed and said in a hoarse voice
    “So they have never met me anywhere!”
  7. Nikolai Korovin
    Nikolai Korovin April 26 2020 02: 18 New
    +3
    "And the doctors are all small.
    They are as thin as matches.
    But frisky, like birds.
    Everybody marry a medic. "
  8. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 02: 48 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai Korovin
    Everybody marry a medic. "

    Female doctors drink until they lose heart rate. crying
  9. Nikolai Korovin
    Nikolai Korovin April 26 2020 02: 54 New
    +2
    And this is good. "A sleeping man is a pitiful sight. With an open mouth and terrible snoring, he looks terrible and completely in the hands of an enemy, and even more so a friend. A woman is another matter. We do not care how she looks when she sleeps. this condition. "
  10. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 02: 59 New
    +1
    Quote: Nikolai Korovin
    We don't care what she looks like when she sleeps. If only she stayed in this state longer. "

    The main thing is to be beautiful. fellow
  11. Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 21: 53 New
    0
    But carried away by A. Olenina, threw this venture.

    "Olenin, it seems, is Pushkin of this and that. Thank you, no need. Leave Lermontov." Captain Mikhailov. soldier
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 25 2020 15: 34 New
    +6
    Sergei! On behalf of all the cats, I thank you for the noble intercession! hi I do not like this creature with the drove of the Apple Maiden. drinks soldier
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 17: 13 New
      +6
      “The camel looked at the mare and spat out of his hearts - the ant was drowned !!!” (with)
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri April 25 2020 20: 59 New
    +5
    Quote: Korsar4

    Who uses cat calls to apple maids?

    "I blundered, sir.
    Here are those sabers, if you want it ... "(c)
    Next time I'll call her Pumpkin.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 April 25 2020 21: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: HanTengri
      I blundered, sovereign.
      Here are those sabers, if you want it ... "(c)

      [quoteI buried a sausage in the autumn forest,
      And some impudent sausage dug up,
      I’ll find it safer, take away the sausage,
      And I’ll bury a sausage in another forest.] [/ Quote]
      1. Hantengri
        Hantengri April 25 2020 21: 14 New
        +4
        "And at night Satan walks through the forest
        And gathers fresh souls
        Winter got new blood
        And she will get you
        And she will get you! "(C)
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 22: 34 New
          +5
          "The one-eyed sunset has filled up,
          but a nice night.
          Pulls rabbit soup from grandfather Mazay.
          Laying on the floor from a potbelly stove
          completely burnt daughter
          Putting on a shotgun, I crawl out onto the path. "(C)
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 25 2020 22: 37 New
          +6
          "Our battalion commander cleaned up his medals.
          Apparently wants to go on the attack.
          But he will not go first.
          The sniper works great. "(C)
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 22: 40 New
          +5
          "And lies on the pole,
          Boots to the sun
          With a bastard mother
          Our Hero Platoon "(C)
        4. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 25 2020 22: 57 New
          +4
          "They urgently call me to our special department.
          "Why, an infection, didn’t burn out together with the tank ?!"
          And I stand on the alert, I tell them:
          In the next attack I will definitely burn out! "(C)
        5. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 23: 01 New
          +5
          "My dashing fate has long been wandering.
          Once I got the "tongue", but I did not bring it,
          And the special officer Suetin is our tireless one!
          Even then I noticed and took it on a pencil. "(C)
        6. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 25 2020 23: 21 New
          +3
          "Like a head, you're hot!
          Do not become an executioner's trophy. "(C)
        7. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 23: 34 New
          +4
          "But at the hour when midnight extinguishes the colors
          Former Pierrot will change the mask,
          The new one who laughed at him
          Will turn into pus. "(C)
        8. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 25 2020 23: 54 New
          +3
          "In life, the artist was funny
          And he always loved to get drunk.
          Morning helped the peasants
          The sun burnt the corpses in half an hour

          But in the silence of the night
          In the basement, someone barked - "Hoy!" "(C)
        9. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 26 2020 00: 00 New
          +4
          "But only I left the depths of the subconscious,
          "New wave" covered me with my head "(c)
        10. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 26 2020 22: 48 New
          0
          "And when it seemed to me that I was tied, they dragged me back." (C) laughing
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 00: 10 New
        +4
        Quote: HanTengri
        In the basement, someone barked - "Hoi!" "(

        Yura, chtol? My friend distributed tapes with their songs.
      3. Hantengri
        Hantengri April 26 2020 18: 10 New
        +1
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Yura, chtol?

        It would be worth asking Kisha, but it’s too late already ...
      4. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 00 New
        0
        It would be worth asking Kisha

        The abbot entered the tavern
        Well, a jester would have been with him,
        If not for a strange fact,
        That the buffoon was with him!
        drinks
      5. Hantengri
        Hantengri April 26 2020 22: 54 New
        +1
        "I returned to the house and was stunned -
        My guest was sitting there with a mug of tea.
        I saw him and next to him myself. "(C) drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 21: 58 New
    +1
    Our hero platoon

    But help did not come, reinforcements were not sent ... crying
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 25 2020 21: 36 New
    +4
    “What Tykov? What kind of apple? " (with).
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 26 2020 12: 22 New
      +3
      Phew, another episode! Plus hand tired !!! good laughing fellow
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 26 2020 12: 25 New
        +3
        This still remnant of consciousness is trying to hold machine gun bursts.
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 25 2020 15: 37 New
    +4
    Igor! For what?! We are affectionate and fluffy, for which we please, at your suggestion, in one company do not understand with whom? It's a shame ... request recourse drinks
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri April 25 2020 21: 38 New
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Igor! For what?! We are affectionate and fluffy, for which we please, at your suggestion, in one company do not understand with whom? It's a shame ...

      And who is easy now? I, too, have all the documents available: both a mustache and a tail (see the profile picture) ... It turned out to be self-cheating. laughing
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 25 2020 21: 43 New
        +7
        "Well, nothing, it's for simplicity." (S. Chasing two hares) laughing drinks
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 25 2020 21: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: Sea Cat

          "Well, nothing, it's for simplicity." (S. Chasing two hares)

          Well then! Savages, we are the children of the mountains. crying
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 25 2020 22: 04 New
            +8
            "... only by the will of the wife who sent me ..." yes
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2020 22: 40 New
            +4
            “Repent, Ivanitch! You get a discount! ” (with).
          3. Catfish
            Catfish April 25 2020 23: 23 New
            +6
            "I do not like you something, but something like that! Why ... why ..." (C)
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 02 New
    -1
    I, too, have all the documents available: both a mustache and a tail (see the profile picture) ...

    And the longest tail of kittens (in snow babr). wink Hello from Mikado cat! We, although courtyard, are also similar to snow babrs, in some ways ... drinks
  • Moon
    Moon April 26 2020 23: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: HanTengri
    And you really want to get into it (after all, there is wine and women and you can walk for 3 days without restraining yourself in anything.

    De I already heard this ...
    oh yes Count Sheremetyev .. siege of Marienburg.
    And che .. the way works.
  • Trilobite Master
    April 25 2020 12: 33 New
    11
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    At the turn of the 19-20 centuries,

    So talk about what happened at this turn. XIII century slightly different from XX. I already drew your attention to the fact that about the XIII century. you know nothing at all except the course of school history, and even that, I'm afraid, by three, but in the most bold way, carry out unthinkable extrapolations from an era that took place seven centuries later.
    In fact, your comments are your own fantasies, and even framed as nonsense
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Einstein covers.

    and in fact, behind them stands exclusively complete ignorance regarding the issue under discussion. I’m doing a lot of stupid things, I’m screaming over them myself, but my brain will remain virgin. laughing
    Regarding Kalmyks - google, just for fun. Maybe if you learn more about them, then stop writing nonsense here.
    1. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi April 25 2020 12: 56 New
      -4
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      I already drew your attention to the fact that about the XIII century. you don't know anything

      And you must assume that you’re broadcasting directly from the headquarters of the Khan of our Chingiz? Do not share the drawings of the time machine?
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      besides the school history course,

      Honey ... Yes, a school course is better than those fakes that you present as historical documents. By the way. About the birds. You somehow modestly jumped off the topic when I quoted your adored carpini, with its mountains from the Dnieper to the Volga. The one that flows into the Black Sea, together with Yaik. Have not yet prepared a justification why this "reliable witness to the existence of the Mongol Empire" is nonsense?
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Maybe if you learn more about them, then stop writing nonsense here.

      I will give you a slightly different advice. Think sometimes about Googling. You look and you will not drag "reliable sources" to VO, telling about the mountains from the Pinsk swamps to the Urals.
      1. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 14: 31 New
        +8
        You know, little tail, something began to annoy me a little bit with your way of expressing yourself, so I’ll change my one too, so that it’s more fun. smile
        So, tail, if you really know how to put letters into words, you could see your eyes ... with eagle eyes, that in the comments to that article I said that I did not have the opportunity to fully participate in the discussion for objective reasons. In the evening, when I returned home, I answered everyone with whom I am pleased to communicate, you do not enter this circle.
        About Carpini, if you want to answer. The unfortunate monk, to his shame, had in the XIII century. unfortunate superficial knowledge of the geography of Eastern Europe, in elementary school, probably, skipped, a scoundrel. And now, poor fellow, he listened to what was told and believed to him. And then he wrote in his notes. Oh, then he was ashamed when he came home and opened a geography textbook for the fifth grade ... But it was too late. You, tail, quite rightly condemned him. And he doesn’t care that the person was traveling along the road, looking around, asking people about what he had seen and heard — he wrote in a booklet, and what they told him he didn’t have the opportunity to check. I had to figure it out.
        You, my dear (s), are so exacting to the unfortunate monks of the XNUMXth century that you must have read something yourself. Of course, if you know that there are no mountains in the upper Dnieper. Mountains are mountains, such as with snow, eagles and rams. And so, walking along the Valdai Upland, for example, you will not meet mountains, only hills and hills. You are smart and know what real mountains are. You can be proud - the ordinary peasant from the upper reaches of the Oka or the Dnieper with the Volga, you, although a little, are ahead of you by the level of education. They were boobies about real mountains and never heard of, for them a mound thirty meters high is already a mountain.
        And of course, little bitch, you need to explain where the information "from Genghis Khan's headquarters" comes from. But right from there and is taken, can you imagine? "The secret legend of the Mongols", for example, was written by a person who was clearly a witness to many of the events described by him and the compilation of this creation dates back to 1240. I cannot name the writer - he would not have signed a modest one, not like you and me. Likewise, other chroniclers, if they themselves were not present at certain events, then asked eyewitnesses, and then wrote them down ... You know, "he will stick his face in his beard and walk around the city, where he hears something, he will write it down in a booklet." And also the Chinese - bureaucrats were not our match - wrote everything down and then kept it. Yes, a lot more.
        I understand that reading all kinds of historians is below your dignity, real experts on history only write, reading for wimps. But still, maybe it’s sometimes worth making a small exception? For Genghis Khan, huh? Oh please...
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi April 25 2020 15: 19 New
          -2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          in the comments on that article, I said that I did not have the opportunity to fully participate in the discussion

          Ugums. True, you somehow forgot to clarify that you can only pop out yourselves, and how they ask you an uncomfortable question, then your time will run out instantly. You mark such moments right away.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          The unfortunate monk, to his shame, had in the XIII century. unfortunate superficial knowledge of the geography of Eastern Europe,

          Pusenka, he actually rode this very geography. Unless of course believe his gossip. What to do of course is not worth it. I am glad that you have confirmed my opinion that he could not get this very information about geography by experience.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          And now, poor fellow, he listened to what was told and believed to him.

          Huh. And in Kiev he was told about the mountain river Don, and those accompanying him, and damn merchants, and at the khan's court. A universal conspiracy against a poor nun. Yes, if this supposedly traveler even got to Kiev, the geography of the Dnieper-Don-Vladimir region would never be a secret for him. Kievans in this triangle rummaged for centuries.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          You can be proud - an ordinary peasant from the upper reaches of the Oka or the Dnieper with the Volga,

          According to the opus, the carpini with the peasants of the upper Dnieper did not communicate in principle. And Kiev merchants poorly poorly knew the difference between a hill and a mountain. Like the hypothetical Mongols. They, if you believe of hysteria, managed to visit the mountains. And to confuse them with the Pripyat swamps ... Not a single Mongol can bear such a shock dose of drugs. Even the most chingizid.
          By the way. the Russian princes and warriors whom the supposedly traveler allegedly met, supposedly from the Mongols, did not seem to be quite alternatively gifted. And do not notice that they travel across the steppe and not in the mountains .... Em. Why do you hate your ancestors so much? Confess honestly?
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          "The secret legend of the Mongols"

          Oh ... Wonderful tagument. There is no original. There is no copy from the original either. There is a copy from a copy made from a copy. Manufactured less than 150 years ago. When in Europe the Mongolophilia was already raging with might and main. before, the Chinese did not see the point of stitching their handicrafts to white barbarians. Well yes. A sucker is not a mammoth, a sucker will not die out. You one. tie one fake as confirmation of another fake. You one. The burial of the Mongol warriors, somewhere near Kiev or Vladimir provide for example. Or something like that.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          You know, "he will stick his face into his beard and walk around the city, where he hears something, he will write it down in a little book."

          Again. Karpini, according to his own claims, was driving along the same geography. And he saw those places about which he carries nonsense, and those people about whom he lies. And if you want to say that he collected these fables from all the taverns of Rome, then I will not argue. I dispute the fact that it climbed beyond the Balkans.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I understand that reading all kinds of historians is below your dignity

          Everyones? Well, yes. A lover of all sorts is just you. And I prefer those who at least at the high school level own geography, mathematics, anatomy and zoology.
          1. Sentinel-vs
            Sentinel-vs April 25 2020 20: 04 New
            -1
            Lannan Shih asks very interesting questions. Sorry, but to answer them in the style that "you are crazy" and you don't need to prove anything, somehow not very ... :(
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 17: 19 New
      +3
      Well, Mikhail, you and the “sovereign” —the Kalmyks commemorated decided to bring down the universe to a man! You would still remember the Karakalpaks ....
      Regards, Vlad!
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 25 2020 16: 27 New
    +3
    Baby ... And you don’t tell in which country and in what part of the world artillery existed at that time, if, of course, you do not mean catapults with ballistic artillery?
    As for the ability to "absorb" the idea of ​​a machine gun, this was all ambiguous, just like with any new type of weapon. Understanding and acceptance of everything new has always been achieved with a lot of blood. And with the Mongols it was exactly the same, they did not come to visit, after first asking permission to enter, and "seeing the moldy Chinese catapult, rushed to absorb it" (C).
    Probably, all the same, at first they experienced its effect on themselves, and having experienced it, they evaluated it.
    Does the story of using tanks remind you of anything? I mean, who was the first and against whom he used tanks, and who later clobbered with these tanks as the children of these inventive innovators.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 17: 49 New
      +6
      Speaking of artillery, Chinese and Mongols!
      The Chinese against the invasion of Genghis Khan for hello used powder charges! There were other lotions.
      For example, a bamboo stick with gunpowder was tied to arrows. Immediately before the shot they set fire to an “improvised wick” and shot. Used to scare horses.
      Well, the last Chinese throwing machines were fundamentally different and differed from European ones.
      By permanent mobilization. The Mongols were pagans and polygamous! They, like most nomads, have different customs of adoption, twinning and recognition by birth. With a rigid hierarchy, as well as the rudiments of a tribal society, a grassroots cell of nukers (ten) was formed mainly from close neighbors and relatives. Where, through mutual responsibility, one was responsible for all. Out of ten dozens, a hundred were created, out of ten hundred thousand, then tumen!
      Moreover, the punishments were applied similar to Roman ones. If one fled, a dozen were executed, a dozen - a hundred, etc.
      By the way, the selection of l / s was selective. Sometimes entire cities were slaughtered (the Tragedies of Samarkand and Urgench), and sometimes peoples were part of the Horde on their own and lived their way for centuries (Bashkirs).
      In fact, they already wrote above, a century later, at the head of the Horde were not the Mongols, but the descendants of the conquered peoples of the steppe!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 25 2020 17: 58 New
        +5
        I am aware of their crackers with a powder charge, but I never heard that they use them in military affairs. hi
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 25 2020 18: 23 New
        +5
        Moreover, the punishments were applied similar to Roman ones. If one fled, a dozen were executed, a dozen - a hundred, etc.
        Error, Vlad. The "decimation" used in the army of Rome is a punishment of every tenth.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 04 New
          0
          Error, Vlad. The "decimation" used in the army of Rome is a punishment of every tenth.

          But in absolute numbers - the same! I remember the decimation for the film "Ducky". hi
  • knn54
    knn54 April 25 2020 12: 04 New
    +6
    Conducting paperwork, issuing decrees was conducted in the Uyghur language. Which the Mongol nobility was akin to the French nobility of the Russian nobles. The Uyghur empire / kingdom was not conquered, but annexed as the fifth ulus. And the Uigurs were not the Chinese mentors / advisers.
    The Russians received a lot of information from the Polovtsy, in particular Khan Kotyan.
    I would like to add that the Mongols were masters of misinformation. Which helped them beat the enemy, in particular his intelligence.
    This skill was well mastered by the Russians. And more than once came to the rescue in the fight against the Crimean Khanate.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 14: 05 New
      +7
      Good day!
      "Wild" Mongols rowed everything for themselves. Chinese, Ugric, Khorezm - without the slightest twinge of conscience and copyright!
      Chronicles of Batyev of hard times directly indicate that artisans, goldsmiths, and silver specialists, blacksmiths, and others were valued in the hunt for the full.
      In fact, by the middle of the XIII century, Russian principalities had lost a number of exclusive technologies and specialists. Why?
  • Trilobite Master
    April 25 2020 12: 10 New
    +8
    Quote: Herrr
    The conquest of China by the Mongols almost coincided with the invasion of these in Russia.

    The conquest of China (its next stage) ended in 1235, in the same year a general kurultai took place, on which they decided to go west. And let's go. That is, we finished in one place, went to another. So that the army does not stand idle.
  • ORINCH
    ORINCH April 26 2020 11: 41 New
    0
    In fact, Genghis Khan was a general in the service of the Jin Dynasty and had the title of Chauthuri.
    1. Errr
      Errr April 26 2020 12: 46 New
      0
      Quote: ORINCH
      In fact, Genghis Khan was a general in the service of the Jin Dynasty and had the title of Chauthuri.
      hi
      Jin is a Jurchen state. If you mean that:
      In 1202, Temujin defeated the Tatars and slaughtered all the Tatars men taller than the wheels of the wagon, thereby avenging the death of his father and all the ancestors killed by them.
      During this, he helped the Jurchen commander, who awarded him the title of chauthuri (Source: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5d77971e32335400aec0f9f4/kak-chingishan-prishel-k-vlasti-nad-mongolskoi-stepiu-5d77b70635c8d800ae9481cc),
      then the jurchen are not Chinese, and not when they were. smile It was a people related to the presently living Manchus, Tungus (Evenks) and Udege. They lived mainly on the territory of the modern Chinese province of Heilongjiang (formerly Manchuria) and in the adjacent territories. The Chinese themselves began to consider Manchuria a full-fledged part of China only somewhere in the first half of the twentieth century. The word "chauthuri" is not of Chinese origin; in Chinese, there is still a problem with the pronunciation of the "r" sound. The Han people are tormented when they try to pronounce the word "Harbin". At the same time, they get something like "Haebin". smile
      1. ORINCH
        ORINCH April 26 2020 22: 15 New
        +1
        Why are you explaining this to me? During the time of Genghis Khan, the state of the Jurchen Jin dynasty occupied northern China up to the Huaihe River, had several capitals, the main one was in Kaifeng, this is Central China, and the northern one was located just in the Harbin region. Jin means "gold" in Chinese, so the Mongols of the Jurchen emperor were called Altan Khan, "golden king". The Jin Empire actively used traditional Chinese principles of government, including actively recruiting steppe dwellers to wage wars as mercenaries. One of such hired generals in the service of Altan Khan was Temujin, who earned the rank of chautkhuri. The Kereite Togoril generally received the title of Wang (in fact, entered the ruling house of the Jin Empire, since this is an analogue of the title "Grand Duke" in the Russian Empire) and became known in historiography as Wang Khan. We must assume that the relationship of this couple with the imperial elite was very close.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 26 2020 23: 46 New
          0
          Even among Kalashnikovs, this is mentioned in fiction.
          1. ORINCH
            ORINCH April 27 2020 00: 39 New
            +1
            Well, yes, Kalashnikov artistically retold the Secret Tale, moreover, with detailed accuracy.
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  • Aborigen4ik
    Aborigen4ik April 27 2020 04: 30 New
    +1
    As for the short-term parasitic policy, you are wrong, from the word at all! And the best confirmation of my conclusion is the whole history of the Anglo-Saxons ...
    1. Polymer
      Polymer April 27 2020 09: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Aborigen4ik
      And the best confirmation of my conclusion is the whole history of the Anglo-Saxons ...

      Anglo-Saxons are parasites, of course, but you have to be objective - they just created a lot of things, invented them. Themselves invented.
  • cost
    cost April 25 2020 08: 06 New
    15
    In my opinion, it is impossible to explain without the fifth column of the Russian population the very rapid raid of the Batu and Subudai army across Russia in 1237-1238. Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich of Kiev, Yuri's unlucky rival for power in North-Eastern Russia, is more suited to the role of such an "agent of foreign influence".
    Information about the transfer of ambassadors and Yuri and Yaroslav with the Mongols during the long parking of the Mongols on the Voronezh River was preserved in the Suzdal, Tver, Nikon and Novgorod First annals. One gets the impression that, standing on the border of the Ryazan and Chernihiv lands, Batu Khan and Subudai resolved the question of the form of "pacification" of the northern border, conducting reconnaissance, and at the same time negotiations on a possible peaceful recognition of dependence on the empire by North-Eastern Russia. The Chinese worldview, perceived by the Mongols, ruled out equal rights between the "Celestial Empire" and the outlying possessions, and the demands for recognition of dependence were obviously difficult to accept to Grand Duke Vladimir. Nevertheless, Yuri II made concessions, behaved purely loyal, and it cannot be ruled out that the Mongols would move towards their main goals - Chernigov, Kiev, Hungary - even in the case of a veiled refusal to immediately recognize the vassality. But, apparently, the work to decompose the enemy from the inside brought a more profitable solution: attack with the support of local allies. Until a certain point, the Mongols did not bind their hands, leaving the opportunity for any solution, while at the same time negotiating inspiring the Russian princes with the hope of avoiding war and preventing the unification of their forces. When is the winter of 1237-1238 chained rivers, opening convenient routes deep into Zalessky Russia, they attacked, knowing that the enemy was disconnected, paralyzed by internal sabotage, and they were waiting for guides and food from the allies.
    Only in this way can it be explained why Yuri II, who was well aware of all the plans of the Tatars, was nevertheless taken aback. It is unlikely that the talks themselves would prevent him from concentrating all the forces of Vladimir Russia for the battle on the Oka, but they were an excellent excuse for Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and his supporters to sabotage the efforts of the Grand Duke. As a result, when the enemy rushed to Russia, the troops of Yuri II were unassembled.
    The consequences are well known: the heroic death of Ryazan, the unhappy battle of Kolomna, the flight of the Grand Duke from the capital beyond the Volga and the capture of Vladimir. Nevertheless, the competent actions of Yuri II and his commander in this most difficult situation should be noted: all available forces were thrown at Oka, Kolomna, at the traditional and in the next centuries border of the meeting of Tatar hordes, the capital city was prepared for defense, it left the grand-ducal family and the prince himself is leaving for the Trans-Volga forests to gather new forces - that is how they will be in the XIV - XVI centuries. act in a similar situation Moscow princes and kings up to Ivan the Terrible. Unexpectedly for the Russian military leaders, it seemed that only the Mongols' ability to easily take outdated Russian fortresses proved to be, and - their rapid advance in a forest unfamiliar country, provided by the guides of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich.
    Nevertheless, Yuri II continued to hope to organize resistance, as evidenced by his appeal to the brothers to come to the rescue with the squads. Apparently, the plot was not disclosed. But Yaroslav, of course, did not come. Instead of him, the Tatars of Burundi unexpectedly came to the camp on the City and the Grand Duke died, not even having time to build regiments. The forests on the City are dense, impassable, the camp of Yuri is small, hardly more than several thousand people, as not only the story of Ivan Susanin can get lost to the army in such thicket. In the XII century. in the suburbs lost troops of the Russian princes against each other in the internecine war. I believe that without the conductors of the Tatars to carry out lightning the defeat of the troops of Yuri II could not. Interestingly, M.P. Priselkov, whose authority in the historiography of the Russian Middle Ages does not need much to spread, believed that Yuri was killed by his own people. Most likely, he was right, and this explains the hazy phrase of the Novgorod First Chronicle, “God knows how it ends: many speak more about him.”
    In confirmation of my assumption, I will give a few more facts. In 1239 the Mongols ruined the possessions of the eternal opponents of Yaroslav - Ryazan (second), Murom, Nizhny Novgorod and Pereyaslavl-Russky, and after the Mongols captured Chernigov in the autumn of 1239, the Lavrentievsky Chronicle records the transfer by the Mongols to the Yaroslav family of Chernigov captured by Batu in Kamenetz-Kiev, Kiev. 1243 Yaroslav the first of the Russian princes left for the Golden Horde to Batu. Where he was approved in Vladimir and, apparently, the Kiev princes and was recognized by Batu "are older than the whole prince in the Russian language." Yaroslav did not go to Kiev (having planted Dmitry Ejkovich as governor there), but chose Vladimir as his residence.
    1. cost
      cost April 25 2020 08: 16 New
      11
      I apologize, I didn’t finish the main thing. The version of the alliance between Yaroslav and Batu also explains the reports of Western chroniclers about the presence of Tatars in the army that invaded Poland and Hungary, and a large number of Russians and the presence of the Kiev governor Dmitry Ejkovich.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 25 2020 08: 30 New
        +2
        All of the above - in particular, the main problem of the Russians in the 13th century was feudal fragmentation (in a centralized state, by definition, there is no possibility of conducting separate negotiations with the enemy and guessing at the coffee grounds in which composition the army will enter the battlefield).
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. April 25 2020 09: 30 New
          +3
          Quote: Operator
          All of the above - in particular, the main problem of the Russians in the 13th century was feudal fragmentation (in a centralized state, by definition, there is no possibility of conducting separate negotiations with the enemy and guessing at the coffee grounds in which composition the army will enter the battlefield).

          You are right, if you understand the feudal fragmentation, as the embodiment of medieval savagery, ignorant conceit and trust in the egoism of the enemy, no less than your own egoism.
          Hence the stupidity of the assumption that the enemy will choose you for friendship against your enemies, and self-deception about your own forces, and, most importantly, the obligatory misunderstanding of the general political situation and the associated underestimation of the main threats.
          Once it seemed to me that the adoption of Christianity was supposed to cure the sovereigns and people from these errors. Now I understand that this gets along with any religion and any ideology. To defeat savagery in any manifestation is possible only with the imposition of the education of the population.
          It is precisely from the realization of this problem, or the underlying unconscious concrete understanding, but after the Mongol invasion, scientific centers and universities began to develop in Europe.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 25 2020 10: 06 New
            +1
            The first (Bologna) university was opened in Europe in 1088.
            1. Gato
              Gato April 25 2020 11: 12 New
              0
              And even earlier, if we take into account the Constantinople Candideterion (mid-IX century)
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 17: 54 New
          +5
          Quote: Operator
          All of the above - in particular, the main problem of the Russians in the 13th century was feudal fragmentation (in a centralized state, by definition, there is no possibility of conducting separate negotiations with the enemy and guessing at the coffee grounds in which composition the army will enter the battlefield).

          Dear Andrey! In the 13th century, all the states of Europe were fragmented! Feudal fragmentation of the scourge of not only the Eastern Slavs, but also of France, Italy, Spain, Germany! In fact, the death of Uguidea is a happy lot of the Western world !!!
          1. Operator
            Operator April 26 2020 02: 22 New
            0
            No one argues that all Europeans went through the stage of feudal fragmentation in the 13th century. The Mongols were still at the stage of transition from a tribal to a feudal system, on which they burned out 200 years later - Eastern Europeans began to create centralized states, and the Mongols in antiphase entered feudal fragmentation.
            1. Liam
              Liam April 26 2020 02: 48 New
              0
              You are not particularly aware of feudal relations. This is an exclusively European phenomenon. Neither Arabs nor Byzantines nor China nor Mongols nor Ottomans have never indulged in feudalism. They always had despotism. Separate elements were only in Japan.
    2. Trilobite Master
      April 25 2020 13: 18 New
      +7
      Dmitry, with all due respect, strongly disagrees with what has been said.
      You almost literally stated the point of view of your namesake Dmitry Chernyshevsky (oh! wink ) set out on the YouTube channel Savromat.
      To begin with, Yaroslav and Yuri never competed with each other and were always on the same side of the barricades for thirty years, and for that time it was a huge achievement. Only, perhaps, Izyaslav and Rostislav Mstislavichi - children of Mstislav the Great can boast of such. The only quarrel between the brothers occurred in 1230, but ended peacefully, with negotiations, without use and even without demonstration of weapons. Yaroslav never laid claim to Vladimir, he studied Novgorod for most of his life, and was already in Kiev just before the invasion.
      The content of negotiations with the Mongols before the invasion is also fully restored: the Ryazan princes tried to drag out time, collecting forces for defense (redirected the Batu ambassadors to Yuri), the Mongols looked for a formal reason for the invasion, for one trying to ruin the Suzdal-Ryazan union. Yaroslav did not participate in these negotiations, in any case, not a single source mentions this.
      There is no information about the presence of a "fifth column" in Russia from the word "absolutely". You can assume anything, but for any assumptions you need at least some reason, in this case, alas ... To accuse Yaroslav of collaborationism, even worse - of betraying the interests of the dynasty, clan, deliberate renunciation of sovereignty, on the sole basis that he managed to survive and lead Russia after the invasion, in my opinion, it is still wrong. Someone had to survive and lead. It turned out to be Yaroslav. Svyatoslav, the next oldest brother, could have become, but Yaroslav survived and assumed power.
      Further. When the Mongols moved to Russia, it was mobilized, and all available troops were assembled and concentrated on the Oka - on the border of the principality. They prepared, knew, took measures, waited. According to some chronicles, even the Novgorod regiments (by the way about Yaroslav) participated in the Battle of Kolomensk, not to mention the fact that all of Vladimir’s land was gathered in a fist, plus the remnants of Ryazan squads. In short, they collected everything they could and put it where necessary. Did not help.
      About the circumstances of the death of Yuri, even not hunting to argue. The invention that they could have killed his own is not backed up by absolutely nothing.
      Next you write:
      Quote: Rich
      In 1239 the Mongols ruined the possessions of the eternal opponents of Yaroslav - Ryazan (second), Murom, Nizhny Novgorod and Pereyaslavl-Russky, and after the Mongols captured Chernigov in the autumn of 1239, the Lavrentievsky Chronicle records the transfer by the Mongols to the Yaroslav family of Chernigov captured by Batu in Kamenetz-Kiev, Kiev.

      Secondary ruin already ravaged a year ago did not make sense. The lands of Ryazan and Vladimir principalities were ruined earlier by the invasion not affected by Mur, the lands along Klyazma and Oka. Pereyaslavl-Russky is the fatherland of the princes of Vladimir, since the time of Yuri Dolgoruky, back in 1230, Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich, brother of Yuri and Yaroslav, sat in it.
      The capture of the family of Mikhail Chernigov was made by Yaroslav, not Batu, in the framework of the union agreement between Yaroslav and Daniil Romanovich against Chernigov. Both of them hated Mikhail Chernigovsky - one for trying to gain a foothold in Novgorod, the second for the same, but relatively to Galich. In this case, the wife of Michael (sister of Daniel) was transferred to his brother immediately, and later returned to Mikhail.
      No, I do not see any reason to suspect Yaroslav of collaborating with the Mongols.
      1. arturpraetor
        arturpraetor April 25 2020 16: 29 New
        10
        There is no information about the presence of a "fifth column" in Russia from the word "absolutely".

        This is if you do not consider the entire history of the adventures of the first wave of Mongols in Russia. Because there are all signs, if not full cooperation, then a certain agreement with the Mongols on the part of the Bolokhovites and Rostislav Mikhailovich from the Olgovichi, when the Mongols reached the Galicia-Volyn principality by war. Of course, there is a possibility that there were no agreements ... But it seems to me very low. For example, in 1241 Rostislav from Chernigov made a trip to Bakota, which belonged to the Romanovichs, and the Bolokhovites joined him. At the same time, the route of the campaign on any route passed clearly across the main direction of the Mongol invasion into Southwestern Russia. Could any army just pass through the rear of the Mongols like that, remaining unnoticed, and being ignored by the steppe people? It is highly doubtful. Plus, EMNIP met with Kripyakevich information that the same Bolokhovites indicated the most convenient invasion routes and weaknesses in the Romanovich state. So on account of "no from the word at all," I would hesitate to argue. The situation in Russia was too favorable for collaborationism - fragmentation, constant strife, regular change of tables under the princes. There, for every great friend and relative, there was a rival and enemy against whom all means are good. In such conditions, it was self-evident to take advantage of the situation to one degree or another, and the complete absence of such acts of collaboration is so contrary to elementary human nature that if nothing is said about them in the sources (and this is not so), then it is time to question this part of the sources.
        1. Trilobite Master
          April 25 2020 17: 00 New
          +7
          Good to see, Artem. smile hi
          The princes of Bolokhov are generally a separate issue, worthy even of an article, but of a monograph. Yes, the sources agree that they assisted the Mongols, but there are so many questions around them ... And the first is whether they were Rurikovich at all and whether their possessions can in principle be attributed to Russia.
          Planned to address this issue in the near future.
          As for Rostislav Mikhailovich, I think that talking about his possible conspiracy with the Mongols, too, as in the case of Yaroslav, is possible only with a thousand reservations about the purely hypothetical nature of such a construction.
          1. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor April 25 2020 17: 32 New
            +7
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Good to see, Artem.

            Taki glad to run into the light, dear colleague hi Although this is most likely a short foray, because I have such an acute attack of social phobia that I hardly even visit my "native" sites, isolating myself as much as possible from what is happening in the outside world, even on the Internet.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            And the first is whether they were generally Rurikovich and whether their possessions can in principle be attributed to Russia.

            In my research on the GVK (the Bokhovites and Galich have a long history of mutual and passionate love), I have never met references to the Rurikovichs standing there at all. But he often met that the Bolokhov land was a thing in itself, and they had their own princes. At the same time, they were part of Russia, as they were dependent on Kiev, and therefore they can be considered collaborators.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            As for Rostislav Mikhailovich, I think that talking about his possible conspiracy with the Mongols, too, as in the case of Yaroslav, is possible only with a thousand reservations about the purely hypothetical nature of such a construction.

            Alas, when constructing an adequate picture of what is happening in times so distant, quite often you have to think out and start from such assumptions, since, firstly, it was a very long time ago and there is less information than we would like, and secondly, the chronicles always differed in a certain way. subjectivism, and this is the opinion of historians. For example, if you suddenly begin to take an interest in such a prince as Lev Danilovich, you will find that relatively recently a number of historians recognized it necessary to reconsider their attitude towards him, since previous assessments were based mainly on the Volyn Chronicle, which was written under the "patronage" of his relatives, with which Leo did not have the best relationship. And this, if you think about it, can be a great many - and therefore skepticism, analysis and logic when working with sources will not be superfluous.
            1. Trilobite Master
              April 25 2020 19: 54 New
              +5
              Quote: arturpraetor
              skepticism, analysis and logic when working with sources will not be superfluous.

              Gold words.
              But if Rostislav had even been smeared at least by the edge of his sleeve in relations with the Mongols, the Volyn Chronicle would have trumpeted this whole Ivanovo. He is accused of collaboration, using his relationship with the Hungarians - yes, but not with the Mongols. Here either one or the other. smile
              1. arturpraetor
                arturpraetor April 25 2020 20: 10 New
                +6
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                But if Rostislav had even been smeared at least by the edge of his sleeve in relations with the Mongols, the Volyn Chronicle would have trumpeted this whole Ivanovo. He is accused of collaboration, using his relationship with the Hungarians - yes, but not with the Mongols. Here either one or the other.

                Not necessary. As far as I understand, it was still not accepted to fight openly with the steppes against their own (to put it mildly), because Rostislav could not openly enter into an alliance with the Mongols, but at least agree on the passage to the south, through the same Bokhovites who also participated on a trip to Bakota. Without any agreements it is difficult to explain how Rostislav calmly reached Bakota from Chernigov and returned back after an unsuccessful siege. There, the route ran right through the places where the Mongols passed at the beginning of the year. Just letting someone’s army in their rear, or even through their orders, is extremely atypical for them, and Rostislav could not know the strength of their army to take such risks. So in my eyes the likelihood of his agreement with the Mongols remains high, and the fact that he also collaborated with the Magyars in the future, and later completely settled under them permanently - is just flexibility in finding means to achieve the desired goal. He flirted with EMNIP and with the Poles, but they were little able to promise him, as a result of which it did not work out. A common example of political flexibility, of which there is a huge mass in history.

                I’m sorry, I could give a much more detailed answer, but the comment editor is very slow, it is impossible to type text.
                1. cost
                  cost April 26 2020 03: 29 New
                  +5
                  Greetings, Artem. It is unfortunate that you have recently seldom looked at the forum.
                  I agree with Mikhail that the Bolokhov princes are generally a separate issue, worthy even of an article, but of a monograph. From myself I’ll add - and very interesting
                  Opinions about them are quite diverse. Some scientists, for example, Sharashevich and Berdnikov, consider the Bolokhovites to be pure Cumans, others - Zubritsky and Barsov, believe that they were formed from a mixture of baptized Cumans and Russian fugitives or prisoners, and the Polovtsian element remained predominant. Petrushevich, together with Miklosich, says that the Bolokhovites were rooms, newcomers to the southern countries of Podolia (mainly between the Dniester and the Southern Bug), at the beginning of the 6743th century. summoned supposedly by the Galician prince Roman Mstislavich during the threatened attack from the warlike Vlachs and Cumans. And, finally, according to Dashkevich, the Bolokhovites are a Russian tribe, which they convince him of: the proximity of the land to the Russian principalities, its independence, the sedentary lifestyle of the Bolokhovites, the main occupation is arable farming, the Slavic origin of the names of the cities. \ In the Chronicle of 1235 (XNUMX), it is told how, after the unsuccessful expedition of the Galician boyars to Kamenets, the Bolokhov princes allied with them were captured and brought to Vladimir to Daniel. Mikhail and Izyaslav began to threaten Daniel and demand that their "brothers" be released. Daniel, apparently, did not heed their threats and Mikhail and Izyaslav lead him to "Lyakh and Rous and the Polovets." According to the chronicler, Michael, preparing to attack Daniel, was expecting a "Polovtsian with Izyaslav." Proceeding from the "special relations" of the Bolokhovites with the Polovtsy and that the Bolokhov princes are called the brothers of Mikhail and Izyaslav, N.M. Karamzin, N.S.Artsybashev and S.M. Soloviev consider Izyaslav to be the son of Vladimir Igorevich. The line of reasoning here is as follows - once the Bolokhov princes "brothers" to Mikhail, they are Ol'govichi; and since they are "brothers" to Izyaslav, it means he is also Ol'govich. And since he is Olgovich, then, most likely, he is the grandson of Igor Seversky and the son of Vladimir Igorevich, since this name has already been encountered in the chronicle. I will not try to build the logic of reasoning in such a way that if Izyaslav is not Olgovich, then the Bolokhov princes are not Olgovichi, and, therefore, Mikhail is not Olgovich, since it is precisely known from the chronicles that Mikhail is Olgovich, I will only note that the question the origin of the Bolokhov princes is very controversial, since no chronicle can trace them
                  pedigree.
                  Gumilyov’s assumption seems to me more plausible that Bolokhovshchina located at the junction of the territories of the three principalities of Kiev, Volynsky and Galitsky, as well as bordering the steppe in the south, southeast, was an analogue of Tmutarakan. Outcast princes or small and insignificant princes from various dynasties fled there or were forced out. I think mainly from the Volyn and Smolensk Rurikovich, as well as from the Olgovichi. Those who could not gain a foothold in the Kiev region, and in Volynia, may still in Galicia after 1211.
                2. Trilobite Master
                  April 26 2020 14: 08 New
                  +3
                  Some kind of curse, right.
                  Yesterday I sat down twice, wrote the answer, and twice it hung up with me when I sent it - my Internet was buggy. Today the same thing again.
                  I write as briefly as possible.
                  I did not find a source from which it would follow that Rostislav began a campaign against Bakota from Chernigov. In general, I doubt that Chernigov could serve as a base for such a campaign at that moment. As far as I remember, at that moment Rostislav and his father had already completely quarreled, Mikhail "exchanged" Galich for Kiev with Daniil, promising not to interfere in Galician affairs, and thus Rostislav's actions violated the agreement between Mikhail and Daniel. Mikhail himself was at that time in Kiev, so it is unlikely that Rostislav could be in Chernigov. Most likely, Rostislav started from Hungary, this is indirectly evidenced by the chronicle record
                  Rostislav collected the prince of Bologhov and the remains of Galich, coming to Bakota.

                  The "rest of the Galicians" are most likely the Galician warriors who fled from the Mongols. It is unlikely that they fled towards Chernigov.
                  1. arturpraetor
                    arturpraetor April 26 2020 15: 01 New
                    +3
                    Well, maybe so, and Rostislav really acted without collusion with the Mongols - it is easier to get from Hungary to Bakota (via Ponisie), and the horde remains on the sidelines. Which, however, does not cancel .... The peculiarities of the behavior of Rostislav. On the one hand, the Mongols are Mongols, and personal interests are always more important, and on the other, to beat the Romanovichs at the same time with them .... And it didn’t help - Rostotlav didn’t take Bakot, the Romanovichs finally subjugated the Bolokhovites, the prince himself was forced into Hungary take refuge, in the same place both sons perished in strife ...
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      April 26 2020 15: 48 New
                      +3
                      Just Daniel was more talented, more energetic, more successful. Many started from a much more favorable position, but at least the same Rostislav. How many companies did he lose to Daniel? Well, I don’t remember exactly, but at least four, in my opinion.
                      Incidentally,
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      beat at the same time with them the state of Romanovich

                      Again, as far as I remember, a significant part of the Galician-Volyn lands, especially the Galician ones, at this moment can hardly be called the state of Romanovich. After the passage of the Mongols, complete anarchy reigned there for several years, some boyars proclaimed themselves princes, and Daniel had to force them out. I suppose something similar was attempted by Rostislav, so to speak, who had time to eat something. With a minimum of effort, Daniel managed to paralyze his activity, and afterwards to squeeze him out of the Galician land. But what ended in what - in 1245? Or after the battle of Yaroslav, Rostislav was trying to do something else?
                    2. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor April 26 2020 16: 07 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Just Daniel was more talented, more energetic, more successful.

                      Daniel still had a good base - the Volyn principality. Almost nothing is known about his boyars, but considering all the factors, it can be assumed that it was fairly centralized and provided almost unchanged support to the Romanovichs since Roman Mstislavich. Add to this far from poor local resources - it turns out a very good starting position. And, again, from the Mongols the Volyn principality suffered slightly less.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Again, as far as I remember, a significant part of the Galician-Volyn lands, especially the Galician ones, at this moment can hardly be called the state of Romanovich.

                      That is why I say "the state of the Romanovichs", not the GVK - at that time the borders and controlled territories there changed almost monthly.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      After the passage of the Mongols, complete anarchy reigned there for several years, some boyars proclaimed themselves princes, and Daniel had to force them out.

                      EMNIP, Daniel coped with the bulk of "samostiynyks" in a year or two. Most of the heavily damaged territories split off, the same Galich after the Mongols did not recover in such size and influence, while Volyn suffered less, and Daniel retained the bulk of his troops, avoiding meeting with the Mongols in the field. Rate. By the way, it fully justified itself - it was thanks to the safety of the troops that it was possible to quickly recover, and even then, first, the Hungarians, and then Kuremse.
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Or after the battle of Yaroslav, Rostislav was trying to do something else?

                      Formally, Rostislav continued to be considered the prince of Galitsky in Hungary. This even gave rise to the still unresolved question of who participated in the battle on the Leita River on the side of the Hungarians, indicated as the "king of Russia" - Rostislav, or Daniel, which is also connected with the myth that the last Babenberg was killed in the back exactly " the king of Russia ". Although on account of Frederick's death, Western historians seem to be inclined to believe that he was killed by one of their own (a fatal stab in the back is considered a fact, but the chronicle description of this stab in the back, attributed to the Russians, looks implausible).
                    3. Trilobite Master
                      April 26 2020 17: 19 New
                      +3
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      Daniel coped with the bulk of the "samostiynyks" in a year or two.

                      But in 1241 he was just beginning this struggle and the "samotiiniks" smile still missing. And I note that the Principality of Volyn at the time of Daniel's maturity was far from uniform - to recall at least his constant friction with Vsevolod Mstislavich and Alexander Belzsky. Volyn still had to be combined.
                      And so, in general, Artem, you are right, as usual, and you don’t even want to argue. smile hi
                    4. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor April 26 2020 17: 37 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      And I note that the Principality of Volyn at the time of Daniel's maturity was far from uniform - to recall at least his constant friction with Vsevolod Mstislavich and Alexander Belzsky. Volyn still had to be combined.

                      Volyn in the broad sense - yes, but the core (Vladimir with its suburbs and associated lands) remained almost all the time in the hands of the Romanovichs, with the exception of the decade 1205-1215. And it was Vladimir who provided the greatest support and strength during the period of unification and the struggle for power, showing extremely high loyalty to the princes for those places, which changed like gloves in Russia, and there were no particular grounds for such commitment. That’s why it’s especially interesting to me personally how things were in Vladimir, why suddenly local boyars were so loyal, absolutely absolutists in comparison with the same Galich - but there is practically no information about Vladimir nobility, as far as I remember Mayorov’s EMNIP, only indirect information and guesses.
                    5. Trilobite Master
                      April 26 2020 18: 03 New
                      +4
                      In general, everything was not easy for Daniel. And the support of Vladimir - the capital city - also had to be earned and not lost, but for this, the politician’s talent was also needed. Many could not cope. The same Yuri Dolgoruky, despite the unquestioned authority of his father in Kiev, lost popularity very quickly.
                      And Daniel was able not only to keep what he got, but also to multiply it several times.
                      It remains only to applaud. smile
                    6. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor April 26 2020 18: 14 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      And Daniel was able not only to keep what he got, but also to multiply it several times.
                      It remains only to applaud.

                      There is one. These specified details, like a good base in the form of Vladimir-Volynsky, only slightly simplify the task, but the task itself was extremely difficult. In my opinion, nowhere in Russia was there such a mishmash from the Rurikovich of various varieties (branches), with a constant and considerable admixture of foreigners (Hungarians, Poles, Mongols), and the position of the Romanovichs after the death of Roman Mstislavich was very weak. And yet - they got out, and how! And not only did they not lose their father’s lands, but they also expanded them somewhat, not to mention participation in European politics. Aerobatics.
                    7. Trilobite Master
                      April 26 2020 19: 11 New
                      +3
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      In my opinion, nowhere in Russia was there such a mishmash from the Rurikovich of various varieties (branches),

                      Novgorod. Novgorod and Galich are generally very similar to each other, much more than all the other cities of Russia. The showdown in Galich was, of course, hotter, but in Novgorod, but they lasted longer. Moreover, both there and there is a constant external threat, the change of princes, and even dynasties. If the descendants of Vladimir Yaroslavich first sat in Galich, then Izyaslav Mstislavich, for some time the olgovichs got there, Mstislav Udatny came from the Smolensk Rostislavichs, then representatives of the Hungarian royal family, then in Novgorod dynasties changed even more often. There were Olgovich and Rostislavich and Izyaslavich and Suzdal Yurievichs, but who was not there, and it lasted a good hundred years, the princes sometimes changed several times a year.
                      Just do not hang any of the princes, as in Galich. smile
                    8. arturpraetor
                      arturpraetor April 26 2020 19: 39 New
                      +4
                      Yes, something about the most fun days of Novgorod, I somehow forgot laughing And yet, yes, they dealt with the princes only in Galich.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 17: 57 New
    +4
    Artyom is glad to see you, my respect!
    Regards, Vlad!
  • cost
    cost April 26 2020 04: 40 New
    +2
    Greetings, Michael hi Let me congratulate you on today's wonderful article, and, as always, wonderful comments. good
    There is no information about the presence of a "fifth column" in Russia from the word "absolutely"

    But why. The first thing that immediately comes to mind is the wanderers, who are mentioned in the "Word about Igor's regiment under the name" deremela "(from the Türkic * därmäl" people from the ford. "Brodniks are often mentioned in Russian chronicles. lines - "Ruskata troops, removed from vagrancy, Normans and squads against the prince of Kiev, a sub-help for the Bulgarian Tsar Ivan Asen II in Bulgaria, prez 1217 ..."
    They repeatedly took part in the internecine wars of the Russian princes, as well as in the Russian-Polovtsian and Russian-Tatar battles.
    During the Battle of Kalka in 1223, part of the brodniks ("old roamers"), led by the governor Ploskynia, went over to the side of the Mongols, breaking the alliance with the Russian princes.
    The Grebensk Cossacks have an old (not later than the 16th century) song epic "Yavdokha" or, as it is also called, "Perevoz Dunya kept". Its meaning is as follows - a certain Dunya with "brothers-berlads", in modern language, took a tribute for the crossing - "from the honest Christians for a pretty penny, from the princes-bolar for a ruble, from the people of God and balakhs? (Vlachs? Bolkhovtsev?) For a penny" ... The princes-bolyars did not pay Duna money. Dunya poured over "burning tears" and went to the "Tatar tsar with offending" Tatar tsar Dunya took pity on and sent her a "pile squad".
    By the way, the first to compare "Yavdokha" with the events on Kalka was none other than Gumilyov
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 26 2020 09: 21 New
      +3
      In this regard, we can recall the Galician governor Dmitry, captured by the Mongols in Kiev. He supposedly voluntarily followed them and even gave Batu advice, to which he listened.
      But I had in mind collaboration in the Rurik community, and precisely before the invasion. After they who earlier, who later, all began cooperation.
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs April 25 2020 20: 14 New
    +2
    You would also write an article on the site. Apparently you have interesting information.
  • Lannan Shi
    Lannan Shi April 25 2020 10: 35 New
    -3
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    The second aspect, the involvement of the enemy’s human resource in the armed forces, and so on!

    Ugums. Only now the world practice shows that such involvement is the essence of a violent fantasy, about the army of the black power of Eilin. The problem is that the enemy's human resource is by no means units from a civilization. This resource has its own Wishlist. And when the percentage of this very resource exceeds 50-60, those involved will be cut small or small. And instead of Genghis Khan, some kind of Ivan Khan, or Gunter-bek, is formed by itself. Even Napoleon, who crushed almost all of Europe, the percentage of those "involved" was noticeably less than 50. And when the backbone of the army, the French backbone, was knocked out, and those involved became noticeably more than those involved .... Immediately, the hunt for the shaker of the universe began. The harsh prose of life, not the pink dreams of warcraft players.
    1. Gato
      Gato April 25 2020 11: 17 New
      +3
      Only here, world practice shows that such involvement is the essence of exuberant fantasy

      Is not a fact. Prussian Frederick was not shy about including captured Austrians in his army. In the army of the last Führer of all Europe, too, were not alone Hoh-Deutsche.
      1. Lannan Shi
        Lannan Shi April 25 2020 11: 51 New
        -2
        Quote: Gato
        In the army of the last Führer of all Europe, too, were not alone Hoh-Deutsche.

        Ugums. But these same "not only" was at the level of 15-20% of the Wehrmacht. Even the Fuhrer, who was absolutely sick on the topic of racial superiority, was absolutely clear that recruiting the Wehrmacht from the conquered, lowering the percentage of Germans to 10-15, was a direct and fast way to the next world. For first they will shoot the true Aryan warders, despite all their superiority over the Untermenschs, and then they will kill him a little. That is why he created the Volkssturm, rowing jerks of schoolchildren and their great-grandfathers, and did not drive crowds of Poles, Czechs and other Danes to the front? AND? Was you worse than a wild nomad?
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 17 New
        0
        Prussian Frederick was not shy about including captured Austrians in his army.

        and the Swedish Marshal Renschild - the captured Saxons. Moreover, our prisoners were killed. And "theirs" were shaved to themselves.
  • Trilobite Master
    April 25 2020 12: 07 New
    +7
    Greetings, Vlad.
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    The superiority of the state of Genghis Khan was determined by three factors:

    All of these items fit into virtually one: the maximum tolerance and practicality of the Mongols. Everything that could benefit, regardless of origin, was immediately included in the work.
    Plus, I’ll add a simple but effective hierarchy of unquestioning subordination of the younger to the elders, open social elevators, the real rule of law, which even the highest dignitaries of the empire and the princes of the house of Genghis obeyed, and an unprecedentedly effective communication system when couriers covered distances of 1000 km in less than a week.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 18: 01 New
      +5
      The Yaman service of the Mongols is amazing, but in essence it is not an innovation, but a direct borrowing!
      The first were the Persians! By the way, from the counterparts the ancient Greeks had full-time walkers !!!
      The most famous application of the latter is “victory announcement in a marathon battle” !!!
      Sincerely, Michil You are well done !!!
      1. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 19: 57 New
        +5
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        The yam service of the Mongols is amazing

        Not that word. 200 km per day - such a result in Europe reached ... I'm afraid to say when. With the invention of the telegraph, probably only. smile
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 21: 32 New
          +3
          It would be interesting to read about the organization of the courier service of the Mongols. For 200 km per day are possible only with "bases" of kilometers after 50. Otherwise, at this rate, the horses turn into sausage on the first day.
          1. bubalik
            bubalik April 26 2020 23: 35 New
            +2
            I agree with you Anton.
            Yes, and the rider in the saddle day will not withstand recourse And with the transition 200 something is doubtful.
        2. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 19 New
          +1
          200 km per day - such a result in Europe reached ...

          Yamskoy service of the Mongols

          The question to the honest assembly: where did the name of the main and symbolic fortress of the 14-15 centuries in the North-West of Russia - Yam come from? (modern city of Kingisepp). hi
          1. Trilobite Master
            April 26 2020 22: 53 New
            +3
            Yam is an old name for a horse turning point. But everyone knows this, in my opinion. smile
            I didn’t dig deeper smile
    2. Liam
      Liam April 25 2020 18: 16 New
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      an unprecedentedly effective communication system when couriers covered distances of 1000 km in less than a week

      Roman cursores from the state postal service cursus publicus (cursus vehicularis, cursus fiscalis) covered 270 km 24 hours 1000 years before Genghis Khan. Persian messengers crossed the Imperial Road 2.700 km in 9-11 days. 1.700 years before Genghis Khan. Nothing new under the moon)
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 26 2020 23: 53 New
        0
        They say that the Incas could run up to 500 km a day. It hardly fits into my head.
  • Malibu
    Malibu April 25 2020 13: 37 New
    +2
    but because these same “savages”, nomads demonstrated discipline, unity, controllability, technical equipment and organization unattainable for Europeans. They were just more civilized.

    I don’t know about civilization, but discipline was tough and Europe should thank us that in Russia these hordes stumbled
    Although now I think it would be better if we let them go to Europe, let them frolic .. And then Russia would be easier!
  • Bar1
    Bar1 April 26 2020 10: 59 New
    +1
    Brodniks.

    Tsarist historians Karamzin and Solovyov mention in their works brodniks as vagabonds. Tatishchev speaks of brodniks as a servant on fords. But it seems that these learned men did not read the Ipatiev Chronicle, where wanderers are mentioned, specifically, as warriors. Brodniks are mentioned along with the Polovtsians who fought on the side of Prince Izyaslav.

    Nikita Acominatus in his word of 1190 even calls them "a branch of the Russians" and points to their warlike spirit.

    All these news taken together allow us to conclude in the end to Mr. Golubovsky, and it seems quite right that B. is a community that developed out of the remnants of the Don sedentary population, under the influence of historians. and ethnographic. conditions in which it was placed, and representing a prototype of the Cossacks.

    all this can be read here

    http://www.vehi.net/brokgauz/
    to "brodniki"

    Opinions about the peoples inhabiting our lands are always contradictory. Some say one thing, others say the other. Why? Why is our Russian history so not logical? There is only one answer, history was written to us by people not interested in historical authenticity. These people are Germans / Jews.

    Geographically, there are also settlements and cities
    Brody is a city in the Lviv region.
    Brody - a village on the Volga.

    Together with other toponyms in

    -Bar

    brodniks can be extended to Russian affiliations around the world. Brodniks disappeared from history, as did the states of Barbaria and Barca.
  • DMB 75
    DMB 75 April 25 2020 06: 28 New
    +9
    Thank you for the article, I enjoyed reading the Author’s work. It’s the case when I don’t see the point of inserting 5 kopecks of my own, so as not to make the respected community of history buffs laugh. All health!
    1. cost
      cost April 25 2020 08: 18 New
      +7
      Very interesting article. good Thanks to the author
      1. Malibu
        Malibu April 25 2020 13: 45 New
        +2
        Quote: Rich
        Very interesting article. good Thanks to the author

        It's time to restore the Mongol-Tatar yoke))))
        I also liked the article! Now the neolib will start yelling from fear of repetition
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 25 2020 06: 36 New
    +7
    The completion of the article is interesting.
    But the East and the West can be infinitely compared.
    But our history and culture have absorbed both of them.

    They have already raised the question - would it be better to fight with the Mongols in an open field, or to defend themselves in cities.

    Julian of Hungary interesting posts.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 25 2020 07: 31 New
      +8
      Julian of Hungary interesting posts.
      Which disappeared in vain. Belu IV and the Hungarian kingdom were saved from destruction only by the death of Ugadei.
  • Operator
    Operator April 25 2020 07: 43 New
    -3
    The author of the article is a Tatarophile, because: "The Roman Empire - no, I don't know."

    What the fucking civilizational superiority did the dirty and smelly Asians (Huns, Mongols, Tatars, Seljuks) have, who were armed with bone weapons and felt gowns?

    And what does China have to do with it, which, if it surpassed Europe in the Middle Ages in terms of civilizational development, but that didn’t have any impact on its defeat by unconditionally wild Mongols. Consequently, the author’s thesis about civilizational superiority as a criterion of invincibility of the Mongol-Tatars is completely sucked from the finger.

    The only advantage of the Asian nomads was their nomadic way of life, making them the most suitable material for conducting a parasitic economy - massive raids on more successful sedentary peoples. The merit of Genghis Khan was that he was able to centralize the nomad parasites under his personal power and send them to the feudally fragmented countries of Central Asia and Eastern Europe.

    The answer of Eastern Europe was symmetrical - a centralized state represented by the Grand Duchy of Moscow, who wiped out Asian parasites from the face of the earth: the Mongol Empire, along with all the little pot-bellied things (Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian, Crimean and other Tatar khanates).
    1. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. April 25 2020 09: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      What the fucking civilizational superiority did the dirty and smelly Asians (Huns, Mongols, Tatars, Seljuks) have, who were armed with bone weapons and felt gowns?

      Your arrogant post indicates your ignorance of the issue under discussion.
      You are probably a fan of advanced military tactics.

      Tvk. Here, under Genghis Khan, an equestrian army was created, which was controlled on the move and could maneuver and organizely attack and quickly retreat on the battlefield ... and do it many times ...
      In Europe at that time, a horse is a carrier of a knight (combatant), who rode in the attack mainly in a straight line ... if it developed successfully for a second attack, the horsemen gathered at the banner, and again also attacked in a straightforward manner ...

      And the Mongols already attacked with lava, like the Cossacks in the First World War.

      The yurts in which the Asians lived were warmer than the stone houses of the deserted Europeans. And only the Russian hut was better.

      With religion and government, they also had a truly modern order. The Mongols, for all the fierceness attributed to them, did not destroy the peoples.
      Lev Nikolaevich Gumilyov convincingly said (something like this):
      - If you want to see the antiquities of Kievan Rus, you go along the Golden Ring - in the areas that were part of the Golden Horde.
      In the same place where there was no Golden Horde from Russian history, even the foundations remained - Where is Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky ...
      The topic is sad, but Alexander Nevsky’s political choice must be respected.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 25 2020 10: 16 New
        -1
        The hut was better than a yurt - and thanks for that laughing

        Not a single Russian principality was part of the Mongol Empire or its core - the Golden Horde Khanate. The Russian principalities were only feudally dependent in the form of paying tribute and the appointment of the so-called capital city. Grand Duke. But the exact same tribute, for example, was paid to the neighboring peoples of the Roman and Byzantine empires, which absolutely does not mean that they were part of Bulgaria or Gothia.

        For example, China, unlike the Russian principalities, was part of the Mongol Empire, since the Mongols ruled directly from the common Sino-Mongolian capital Hanbalik (present-day Beijing) and the Mongol governors in the Chinese provinces.
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. April 25 2020 10: 21 New
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Not a single Russian principality was part of the Mongol Empire or its core - the Golden Horde Khanate.

          .. and the Baskaks did not go on Russian soil ...
          There are too many alternative stories and mistakes in understanding the historical process.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 25 2020 10: 23 New
            +2
            The Baskaki are not governors.
            1. Gato
              Gato April 25 2020 11: 33 New
              -2
              Baskaki are not governors

              Local princes did better with this. Got payzu - and collect yasak. And the governor does not care where to send tribute - to Moscow or the Horde. Nothing changed request
              1. Operator
                Operator April 25 2020 11: 45 New
                -1
                Tribute is a sign of vassality, governors are a sign of lack of sovereignty.
                1. Gato
                  Gato April 25 2020 11: 59 New
                  -1
                  Tribute is a sign of vassality, governors are a sign of lack of sovereignty

                  Not always and not everywhere. Do not remind me how long the VKM paid tribute? And what, while the Grand Duke of Moscow was not a sovereign? Actually, any feudal lord in the European sense is sovereign. On the other hand, governor-generals and other vice-kings were appointed to the British dominions, de facto sovereign. But this is from another operetta.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 25 2020 12: 31 New
                    -2
                    In addition to paying tribute to the overthrow of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, the great princes received a label for reign, after the overthrow, the sovereignty of the VKM became equal to the sovereignty of, for example, the Byzantine Empire, which also paid tribute to its neighbors - in order to reduce its spending on conducting military operations against them.
            2. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. April 25 2020 12: 28 New
              +2
              Quote: Operator
              The Baskaki are not governors.

              Baskaki is worse than governors.
              They had no right to have mercy and forgiveness.
              We walked east. Virtually no weapons.
              They were sometimes beaten and killed ... After that, punishers came. sometimes together with the Russian prince, sometimes without him ...

              By the way ...
              The memory of the Basques on the territory of the Tver Principality verbally reached at least until the end of the 1960s. When my schoolgirl was visiting my grandmother’s sister in the village, they showed me the slope to the stream outside the village of Borshchevo and told me that there used to be the village of Antye, the Basques burned it ...
              The field was plowed, the ashes with skulls and bones were opened ...
              So, not only textbooks are rooted in the scientific attitude to native history.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 25 2020 12: 37 New
                +1
                The Baskakis were imprisoned for the only task - collecting tribute, while the governor has all the authority over the terms of reference.

                You essentially want to equate the head of the Federal Tax Service Department with the head of the regional administration laughing
                1. Sergey S.
                  Sergey S. April 25 2020 13: 03 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Operator
                  The Baskakis were imprisoned for the only task - collecting tribute, while the governor has all the authority over the terms of reference.

                  You essentially want to equate the head of the Federal Tax Service Department with the head of the regional administration laughing

                  1. Where did you get the governors ???
                  There were no provinces yet. There were principalities.
                  2. To be more offensive. Baskak was taller than the Russian prince. He brought a letter of khan with the grace of sitting on the reign and with the task of collecting tribute.
                  The prince could not rock the boat.
                  And if he didn’t do it, he was either summoned to the Horde, or “solved” on the spot.
                  Since then, the verb "solved" has appeared ...
                  There were uprisings in Russia, there were battles ...
                  But before Ivan the Terrible, tributes were paid to the descendants of the Golden Horde.
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 25 2020 11: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Sergey S.

        Tvk. Here, under Genghis Khan, an equestrian army was created, which was controlled on the move and could maneuver and organizely attack and quickly retreat on the battlefield ... and do it many times ...

        And do you have conclusive evidence for this statement?
        Quote: Sergey S.

        In Europe at that time, a horse is a carrier of a knight (combatant), who, in attack, rode mainly in a straight line ...
        Well, yes, the knight had no reins, this is the first, and the second - do you not know that a knight, holding a shield in one hand and a spear in the other, could control the horse with his feet?
        if it developed successfully for a second attack, the horsemen gathered at the banner, and again also attacked in a straightforward manner ...

        Awesome knowledge of knight cavalry tactics.
        Quote: Sergey S.

        In the same place where there was no Golden Horde from Russian history, even the foundations remained - Where is Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky ...

        Everything is correct, only the reasons are not the same. Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky are forest-steppe regions, i.e. places where it is convenient for nomads to graze their livestock, and "extra" people, aborigines, are not needed there, so they were exterminated. And in the forest zone there are much less pastures, so the nomads did not want to stay there and, again, therefore, did not bother destroying cities and populations, but simply imposed tribute on them.
        This is also one of the versions that has the right to exist.
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. April 25 2020 12: 16 New
          +2
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And do you have conclusive evidence for this statement?

          Lectures of Lev Nikolaevich Gumilyov.
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk

          Awesome knowledge of knight cavalry tactics.

          And can you give examples of lava maneuvering from Western European knights?
          And what kind of weapons could the knights use, at full gallop in dense lava?
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk

          Everything is correct, only the reasons are not the same. Galich, Vladimir-Volynsky are forest-steppe regions, i.e. places where it is convenient for nomads to graze their livestock, and "extra" people, aborigines, are not needed there, so they were exterminated. And in the forest zone there are much less pastures, so the nomads did not want to stay there and, again, therefore, did not bother destroying cities and populations, but simply imposed tribute on them.
          This is also one of the versions that has the right to exist.

          The reasons are the most understandable - Catholics destroyed everything else. For the concept of heretic allowed savages to do this.
          The theory of the struggle between the forest and the steppe does not stand up to criticism with real facts.
          In the civil strife before the Mongol period, the steppemen in almost every war between the brothers-princes participated at the request of one of the parties ...
          In addition, in those days, the Carpathians and the Galician land is also a forest ... Glades. of course. were. But to the steppe ????
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 25 2020 12: 29 New
            +2
            Quote: Sergey S.
            Lectures of Lev Nikolaevich Gumilyov.

            A very large specialist in military tactics.
            1. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. April 25 2020 12: 54 New
              +1
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              A very large specialist in military tactics.

              In vain you are so about a powerful orientalist, and a GREAT SCIENTIST.
              L.N. Gumilev introduced ethnographic facts and methods into the space of historical science.
              And the ability to handle a horse is already ethnography.
      3. Gato
        Gato April 25 2020 12: 03 New
        +1
        In the same place where there was no Golden Horde from Russian history, even the foundations remained

        Yeah, for example, Novgorod or Pomerania
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. April 25 2020 12: 42 New
          +1
          Quote: Gato
          Yeah, for example, Novgorod or Pomerania

          I will not say anything about the Pomors, they were just beginning, and not everyone understood about them and in Novgorod.
          But you are wrong about Mr. Veliky Novgorod.
          Why did the Teutons end so successfully for Alexander Nevsky?
          .
          Alexander went to the Horde.
          Agreed to bondage.
          But ...
          When the pope again gathered the crusade against Novgorod and Pskov, the troops met for a new battle, but the battle did not take place ...
          On the flank of Novgorod, the Mongol cavalry pranced.

          Therefore, Mr. Veliky Novgorod was preserved.

          It’s time to come to my senses. And to understand that the ideology of hostility does not allow creating a strong large state. At first, they realized this in Asia, the Chinese, the Mongols ...
          Then these ideas spread to Russia.
          It is for this reason that Russia is the largest, most multinational country in the world.
          This is our strength.
          This is our pride.
          One can speak freely on this subject with the Mongols, and with the Tatars, and with the Dagestanis, and with the Chechens.

          And the last.
          Try exploring state maps.
          The map of Russia is very similar to the map of the empire of the Mongols ....
          And the fact that the Baltic states and Ukraine broke away, even this lies in the logic of the historical process.
          Where there is no historical memory and a strong state, maydanut live ...
          1. Operator
            Operator April 25 2020 13: 12 New
            -5
            The separation from Russia of Little Russia, White Russia, the Baltic States, Transcaucasia, Kazakhstan and Central Asia is a consequence of the Jewish yoke (Ulyanov / Blank and company) in the form of a globalist project of using Russians (deprived of their statehood as part of the USSR) as a consumable for the permanent "proletarian "revolution.

            The process of overthrowing the Jewish yoke was launched by Stalin and will end as well as the Mongol-Tatar yoke - the consolidation of Russian lands - after the collapse of the Jewish empire under the title of the United States (where Trump launched a counter-project to create a national, not an imperial state).
            1. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. April 25 2020 13: 23 New
              +3
              IN AND. Lenin gathered the Great Soviet Union.
              Bolshevik I.V. Stalin pushed the limits to the limit of what was possible, having for this purpose fanned the whole capitalist world.
              And now, they are also to blame for the collapse of the USSR ????
              Think it over.
              Trotsky was expelled from the USSR for the ideas of a permanent revolution, and then ours were killed.

              And you are mistaken about Trump ... The Jewish community supports him ... and guides him.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 25 2020 14: 50 New
                -5
                You live in an alternate reality - Blank / Ulyanov in 1922 ruined the great RSFSR into sovereign republics as part of the USSR Confederation.

                Trump is valuable to Russia as a grave digger of a global Jewish project based on the United States (just as the discord in the domestic politics of the Golden Horde was valuable).
      4. ccsr
        ccsr April 25 2020 12: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: Sergey S.
        The yurts in which the Asians lived were warmer than the stone houses of the deserted Europeans. And only the Russian hut was better.

        It is unclear what you were drawing this to, but the point here is completely different, because a yurt is an easily collapsible dwelling, first of all, which is the main thing for nomads. Europeans needed stone houses to avoid fires in large cities, and to stake out ownership of land in the face of a shortage of urban areas for their descendants. And the climate in Europe is milder than in Siberia and Mongolia. So the way of life was different, which led to the emergence of different housing. And Gypsies still roam in camps even in Europe - here's the "warmth" of their tents, in the form of trailers transported in the form of housing.
        1. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. April 25 2020 12: 48 New
          +2
          Quote: ccsr
          It is unclear why you pulled it

          A yurt is a rather complicated easy-to-assemble structure that provided good living conditions.
          In stone houses - continuous rheumatism.
          Or like Tristan and Isolde - they slept in beds in the hall, and other knights slept around on the floor, all because one hall was heated in the entire castle.
          [Tristan and Isolde laughing ]
          1. ccsr
            ccsr April 25 2020 12: 57 New
            0
            Quote: Sergey S.
            In stone houses - continuous rheumatism.

            Do you still live in an unheated room? It is interesting to know where this is in our strip, not to mention the north.
            Quote: Sergey S.
            A yurt is a rather complicated easy-to-assemble structure that provided good living conditions.

            You need to organize this business in Pomoskovye - you’ll probably quickly become a billionaire, here we have the hell out of nomads from Central Asia who dream of living in a yurt.
            1. Sergey S.
              Sergey S. April 25 2020 13: 07 New
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              Do you still live in an unheated room?

              Of course not.
              But I really understand how much the heat in our homes costs.

              And WTO. for example, the French in the southern regions are really cold in winter.
              They have fireplaces that need to be heated almost continuously to heat the house.
              Now it's expensive ... And lazy ....
              So they live with rheumatism.
              I did not come up. These are the observations of my comrade, two times a dash of the year, who worked in Algeria and France.
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 25 2020 13: 13 New
              +4
              Already started. Ethnic park "Nomad", Sergiev Posad district.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr April 25 2020 13: 18 New
                +1
                Quote: Korsar4
                Already started. Ethnic park "Nomad", Sergiev Posad district.

                It is a pity that I was late with the idea - we can say I missed the money by hand.
                And so the chic New Vasyuki would have turned out - thousands of yurts in orderly rows would have stood in the suburbs, and in the morning guest workers on horseback would come to the capital ....
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 25 2020 13: 20 New
                  +5
                  Only on camels. You will surprise anyone with horses.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 39 New
                    +5
                    About seven years ago I saw girls walking the Bactrian along the street and frankly ofigel! (St. Petersburg, Kirovsky district)
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 25 2020 14: 41 New
                      +5
                      What doesn’t happen on your streets: either Nose or Crocodile.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 57 New
                        +5
                        The ghostly light of the "white nights" gives rise to different images. Whipping and scars.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 16: 01 New
                        +2
                        “Eight months winter, instead of dates - cloudberries” (c).
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 18: 00 New
                        +3
                        "Lingonberry fields, cloudberry gave!
                        No mosquitoes, no midges ... Well, think, lied! " (FROM)
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 18: 39 New
                        +3
                        "Spiky Fur Eyelashes
                        Over the blue eyes of the lakes ”(c).
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 18: 45 New
                        +3
                        "Rybachiy melted in the distant fog,
                        Our dear land "(C)
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 18: 54 New
                        +2
                        "Where I throw pebbles from a steep bank
                        The distant strait of Laperouse ”(c).
                      7. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 18 New
                        +3
                        "The ocean breeze washes my hair.
                        A distant blue waits in its arms. "(C)
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 22 New
                        +3
                        "To the mainland, to the mainland
                        There is the last caravan ”(c).
                      9. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 30 New
                        +3
                        "Uchkuduk - three wells" (C)
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2020 19: 34 New
                        +3
                        "Harnessed the donkey
                        With a star in his forehead ”(c).
                      11. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 19: 42 New
                        +2
                        "And that's why I run along the road like that,
                        With a magic gramophone
                        In his cart "(C)
                      12. Svarog51
                        Svarog51 April 26 2020 08: 24 New
                        +5
                        "So why did you sink the boat?
                        There was a new gramophone in it
                        And a portrait of Edita Pieha
                        And a smoking salon! "(C)
                      13. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 26 2020 08: 29 New
                        +2
                        "Plush sofa, dummy from China" (C)
                      14. Svarog51
                        Svarog51 April 26 2020 08: 36 New
                        +5
                        "And the shooter - What kind of reward is this?
                        I would have to roll out a port tub
                        I don’t need a princess
                        Miracle Yuda, I will win anyway! "(C)
                      15. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 26 2020 08: 46 New
                        +2
                        "And if vodka is not driven from sawdust,
                        What would we have with five bottles? " (FROM)
                      16. Svarog51
                        Svarog51 April 26 2020 08: 59 New
                        +4
                        "And I have dumplings,
                        Mowing fish
                        And an opened bottle of vodka. "(C)
                      17. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 26 2020 09: 06 New
                        +2
                        "I'll hook a twenty-eight ruble on the hook,
                        I'd like to catch "Golden Autumn"
                      18. Svarog51
                        Svarog51 April 26 2020 09: 11 New
                        +4
                        "Fish, fish help
                        Golden, do mercy
                        Order the girl to
                        To fall in love with me! "(C)
                      19. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 26 2020 09: 17 New
                        +2
                        "Listen, mother-in-law, dear friend,
                        Help me
                        You understand that we are with you
                        Not enemies "(C)
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 23 New
    -1
    About seven years ago I saw girls walking the Bactrian along the street and frankly ofigel! (St. Petersburg, Kirovsky district)

    In 2010, a camel that had escaped from pasture wandered into the Western High-Speed ​​Diameter. The news was, I remember. They were walked somewhere near the WHSD exit to the "ring" in Dachnoye. soldier
  • Gato
    Gato April 25 2020 11: 41 New
    0
    Eastern Europe’s response was symmetrical - a centralized state represented by the Grand Duchy of Moscow

    You confuse cause and effect - VKM appeared precisely thanks to the Mongol Empire, with the help of which feudal fragmentation was overcome.
    1. Operator
      Operator April 25 2020 11: 47 New
      +1
      I said so: Mongol aggression is the cause, the centralization of the Russian principalities under the leadership of the VKM is the consequence.
  • Trilobite Master
    April 25 2020 13: 39 New
    +7
    Quote: Operator
    What the fucking civilizational superiority did the dirty and smelly Asians (Huns, Mongols, Tatars, Seljuks) have, who were armed with bone weapons and felt gowns?

    Oh, and your blessed Europe at that time was clean, washed and fragrant? I looked at the sky with telescopes, studied ancient philosophers, wrote poetry ... But in the East it was all. While in Europe they were discussing a very important question - how many angels can fit on the tip of a needle - Avicenna studied in the East.
    So who was wilder - your illustrious "pure descendants of the Aryans" with "erbins" with the sacred haplogroup so beloved by all sorts of feeble-minded people, swarming in manure for six months without straightening their backs, and for six months clicking lice with torches in their houses-barns together with cattle, in which a semi-literate priest or padre in a village church or church was considered a learned person - does it matter whether a disciplined army of nomads with Chinese engineers, Arab merchants and Persian doctors included?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 44 New
      +5
      Mikhail, with all due respect, but Europe at that time was by no means "unwashed and semi-literate."
      1. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 15: 29 New
        +7
        On account of the "unwashed" it is not for me, then I agree. We washed, hygiene was at the level. But they were still swarming in the manure. smile
        But literacy can be argued. In cities, especially trade, such as Novgorod, literate, of course, was enough. Although, of course, there is no question of universal literacy, even in Novgorod - Yanin specifically proves this with living examples. Letters were written in the same handwriting on behalf of different persons, therefore the clerk worked, which means there was a need for a letter, but there was no possibility.
        There was no such level of literacy in the countryside.
        And I also remember the report of some church "auditor" on the observance of the ritual part, etc., in my opinion, just in the XII century. in Russia - priests and clerks do not know how to read Holy Scripture.
        In Europe it was even worse. In our country, even though the princes were able to read and write, they did not have a fact at all.
        1. bubalik
          bubalik April 25 2020 19: 25 New
          +4
          Michael, what photo did not sign? am not everyone (maybe) knows, including me, who sad
          hi
          1. Trilobite Master
            April 25 2020 19: 39 New
            +5
            Photo - a monument to Yuri Vsevolodovich in Nizhny Novgorod, as the founder of this city. Nearby is Bishop Simon.
            1. bubalik
              bubalik April 25 2020 19: 50 New
              +5
              Thank you hi
              The material of your dilogy is interesting. I really liked the writing style: lively and connecting, flowing sentences and conclusions without jumps, easy to read. good
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 25 2020 21: 17 New
          +2
          In Europe it was even worse.
          In Europe it was about the same. With one nuance. The percentage of literacy among the female part of the second estate was significantly higher than the male.
          Regarding the "dung", I will note that the profession of "goldsmith", in Japan, at the beginning of the Meiji era, was considered very honorable and profitable. This is with the total cleanliness of the Japanese.
    2. depressant
      depressant April 25 2020 16: 17 New
      +4
      Yes, the East is like that. The Strugatskys mentioned "The Tale of Prince Genji" in passing. I got interested and began to read. Colleagues, this is Japan of the 11-12 centuries! It was written by a lady of the court! Striking grace, sophisticated way of thinking, subtle, deep reasoning ...
      Since then, the shock does not go away from me: they already had an intelligentsia and a rich culture. Koreans and Chinese, too.
    3. Esoteric
      Esoteric April 25 2020 17: 18 New
      -2
      Then how to explain the fact that it was precisely from six months ago that scientists, architects, engineers, who were swarming in manure and beating lice, came out who built modern civilization. And the smartest Chinese with the Mongols over the centuries, except for the cramming of Confucius, were not noted at all? Well, nothing at all.
      1. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 20: 03 New
        +3
        It's not evening yet. I fully understand that in three hundred years only memories will remain of European civilization and the indigenous inhabitants of, for example, Berlin, in some kind of New Chinese, will argue that "this Europe never existed, and if it was, then why did nothing remain of it? ". smile
        1. Esoteric
          Esoteric April 28 2020 17: 44 New
          0
          I do not agree. The civilization of copyists cannot do anything a priori. They themselves cannot create anything. They use the intelligence and engineering inventions of Europe, which Russia certainly belongs to. They’ll be chopped off soon. And they will be what they should be. I agree with the Operator. The creator of modern civilization is the Christian world. It’s just a fact, and he is a stubborn fact.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 18: 17 New
    +5
    Andrew! My regards.
    To be honest, the grandmother said in two whether the Moscow Principality of Danilovich was European! Essentially a deep symbiosis of West and East, Orthodoxy of the Rurikovich and Tatar Genghisides! Here, even with a candle you can’t tell where Asian cunning and European trick are!
    Against the background of Yuri Danilovich of Moscow, Mikhail Tverskoy looks like a knight. In his youth, Ivan Kalita had a “chase” - a monk, who before his contemporaries “Terrible eyes”, “Cheremny”, “Old” !!! And if you consider that he bought, took a dowry, squeezed for debt! Here 90 recorders with irons and soldering irons will cry in the corner !!! The only equal to him in history is Louis 9, to the word "Holy"!
    So still sit between Europe and Asia! Someone figuratively, and I literally on my mountains! The morning began in Asia, I am writing a comment in Europe!
    Okay, I'm going to leave the snow !!!
    Sincerely, Your Vlad!
    1. Operator
      Operator April 26 2020 02: 36 New
      0
      The Grand Duchy of Moscow was undoubtedly a European state (one Christian religion stands for) behind one difference - the principle of centralization of power was strictly monitored, it was simply impossible in another way due to the border position of the VKM in relation to the parasitic states of nomads.
      1. Liam
        Liam April 26 2020 02: 42 New
        0
        Quote: Operator
        The Grand Duchy of Moscow was certainly a European state (which one Christian religion is worth)

        VKM was not a European state, but a Byzantine one. These are different civilizations. And that is why

        Quote: Operator
        the principle of centralization of power was strictly monitored
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 02: 51 New
          +2
          Quote: Liam
          VKM was not a European state, but a Byzantine one.

          Millions are you. Us - darkness, and darkness, and darkness.
          Try, fight with us!
          Yes, Scythians - we are! Yes, Asians - we -
          With slanted and greedy eyes!
          For you - centuries, for us - a single hour.
          We are like obedient slaves
          They held a shield between two hostile races -
          Mongols and Europe!
          Century, century your old horn forged
          And drowned out the thunder of an avalanche
          And a wild fairy tale was a failure for you
          And Lisbon and Messina!
          You have looked east for hundreds of years,
          Digging and melting our pearls
          And you, mocking, counted only the term,
          When to train cannon vents!
          Here - the time has come. Wings are beating trouble
          And every day resentment multiplies,
          And the day will come - there will be no trace
          From your Paestums, maybe!
          Oh, the old world! Until you perish,
          While you languish with sweet flour,
          Stop, wise as Oedipus,
          Before the Sphinx with an ancient mystery! ..
          Russia - Sphinx. Rejoicing and mourning
          And bleeding black blood,
          She looks, looks, looks at you,
          And with hatred, and with love! ..
          Yes, to love as much as our blood loves,
          None of you have loved for a long time!
          Forgot you, that in the world there is love,
          Which burns and kills!

          Something like this...
          1. Liam
            Liam April 26 2020 03: 14 New
            0
            The author himself did not like the resultant poem: according to the memoirs of R.V. Ivanov-Razumnik, Blok admitted: “... that’s why, obviously, I don’t like Scythians in the same line with political manifestos, it’s boring.
            In the course to what historical moment this verse is timed?)
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 03: 22 New
              +1
              Quote: Liam
              In the course to what historical moment this verse is timed?)

              No, to be honest. Do not know. Toward a revolution, no?
              1. Liam
                Liam April 26 2020 03: 31 New
                0
                To the Brest Peace)
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 April 26 2020 03: 35 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Liam
                  To the Brest Peace)

                  I didn’t know. Thank.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam April 26 2020 03: 42 New
                    +2
                    Yes, nothing. Both were cultivated.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 25 2020 07: 51 New
    +5
    Thank you Michael!
    not because the Mongols showed unprecedented cruelty
    Let me disagree here. The Battle of Chaillot became a gloomy revelation for Europeans accustomed to "courtly" methods of war. The nearest such intra-European massacre ("Battle of the Golden Spurs", Courtras, 1302) was 60 years away.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 08: 54 New
      +7
      Good morning Anton!
      After the Curtre, the French flew into a rake in the form of (bolts and arrows)!
      Kersey, Poitiers, Agincourt !!! Then there were peaks of battles of the Swiss and Spanish thirds! Well, your favorite landsknecht flambers !!! The latter exaggerated a little for you !!!
      Europe itself has found its own ways to resist the knight on horseback!
      Although phantom pains in the form of Reitars, cuirassiers and cavalry cities tormented the last five more centuries !!!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 25 2020 09: 11 New
        +7
        Greetings, Vlad!
        The confrontation between cavalry and infantry is a separate issue, very interesting. I’m talking about something else. Before the advent of the Mongols, Europeans had no idea about the methods of conducting a total war. Even the Arabs could be negotiated.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 25 2020 09: 18 New
          +7
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Even the Arabs could be negotiated.

          Yes, and it was possible to agree with the Mongols, as evidenced by the experience of Alexander Yaroslavovich and all subsequent generations
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 25 2020 10: 05 New
            +9
            After the recognition of vassalage - yes. Basically, Mongolian foreign policy is a copy of the Chinese national paradigm. "There is the Celestial Empire. There are countries - satellites of the Celestial Empire. There are countries that will become satellites of the Celestial Empire."
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 25 2020 15: 25 New
              +5
              There are countries that will become satellites of the Celestial Empire. "

              Hello Anton! drinks Somehow this phrase seemed very suitable to the times of today. You, by chance, were not thinking about today? smile
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 25 2020 17: 47 New
                +5
                "- Locksmith Sidorov, what do you think looking at the adjustable wrench?
                -About a woman.
                -Why?!?!
                -And I always think about her ... "
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish April 25 2020 17: 57 New
                  +4
                  The same story about soldier Sidorov and about bricks. The fight against babilism is unsmfslennoy! request
                2. Nikolai Korovin
                  Nikolai Korovin April 26 2020 02: 50 New
                  +2
                  And for some, such associations for some reason cause a brick.
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 18: 20 New
              +3
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              After the recognition of vassalage - yes. Basically, Mongolian foreign policy is a copy of the Chinese national paradigm. "There is the Celestial Empire. There are countries - satellites of the Celestial Empire. There are countries that will become satellites of the Celestial Empire."

              Anton - bravo !!!
          2. Caretaker
            Caretaker April 25 2020 10: 44 New
            +3
            Quote: Mihaylov
            Yes, and the Mongols can agree, as evidenced by the experience of Alexander Yaroslavovich and all subsequent generations

            In principle, it is possible to agree with almost everyone, depending on what conditions. Sometimes the conditions are unacceptable to one of the parties.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 22: 26 New
              0
              In principle, it is possible to agree with almost all

              Colleagues, what a blessing that we can all get together and discuss the article, or just chat! This is really expensive! drinks
              1. bubalik
                bubalik April 26 2020 22: 40 New
                +2
                either just chat
                ,,, yeah, then the higher ones will come, quote p.v and wassat
                c) flooding, comments not related to the subject of the article, the emptyness of the comment drinks
                1. Sentinel-vs
                  Sentinel-vs April 27 2020 06: 11 New
                  0
                  It is high time. They spoiled the whole topic with their stupid flood!
    2. Trilobite Master
      April 25 2020 13: 41 New
      +5
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      The Battle of Chaillot became a gloomy revelation for Europeans accustomed to "courtly" methods of war.

      The only news was the persecution and destruction of the defeated enemy, which was not practiced in Europe. This Europeans really surprised. Everything else is within normal limits.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 25 2020 14: 04 New
        +6
        And also a "dastardly" attack on the camp. Bela was counting on "honest English boxing". And then, hitting, "may geri" on "kukaykami" !!! laughing
        1. Trilobite Master
          April 25 2020 15: 19 New
          +6
          Wild people were these Europeans. So civilized Asia taught them the lesson of "total war". But, I must say, they quickly began to learn.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 25 2020 16: 49 New
            +4
            Now, in Hungary, a peripheral state at the level of the Galicia-Volyn principality (although Mstislav Udatny and Daniil now probably swear and speak weaker, they carried one gate) to determine the strength or weakness of Europeans of the 13th century
  • AK1972
    AK1972 April 25 2020 07: 56 New
    +4
    The author very clearly illustrated the cultural superiority of China over Europe, comparing "The Song of Roland" with the song "Boat" by Su Shi, one of my favorite songs by Kinchev. I liked the article very much, like the previous one. Many thanks to the author.
    1. Operator
      Operator April 25 2020 08: 49 New
      -1
      European culture has an overwhelming superiority over Chinese for a simple reason - according to Confucian philosophy, new literary works must be created as alliterations (rehashes) of the old. As a result, after several such rehashings, Chinese literature degenerated into an empty, numbed haze, suitable only as song texts (recitatives).

      Confucianism was the essence of the education system in China, which led to its civilizational degradation. It took triple reformatting based on European culture (Japanese industrialization, Soviet industrialization, American reindustrialization) so that backward China would again become a world factory (who it was in the Middle Ages).

      Another thing is that the Chinese mentality, for the most part, is still based on Confucianism, as it was and remained flawed - copy-paste. After a break with the United States, from where the Chinese have been fueled by innovation for the past 50 years, the PRC will once again turn into a "Middle Swamp" bully
      1. AK1972
        AK1972 April 25 2020 09: 01 New
        +4
        The author compares the Chinese and European cultures of the 13th century, and at that time European culture was in its infancy, people who could read and write, including the highest aristocracy, could be counted on the fingers, so that at that time China both culturally and technically superior to Europe.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 09: 40 New
          +9
          I don’t remember which of the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire used to say! On the battlefield, I command in Italian, with women in French, with my horse in German !!!
          Perhaps I misinterpreted somewhere, but it does not change the essence! His grandfather did not know how to write and read, putting only his signature under the documents - by the grace of God Henry!
          So everything is relative !!!
        2. Operator
          Operator April 25 2020 10: 03 New
          0
          Exclusively Europeans - Greeks and Romans - laid the foundations of modern civilization, the Chinese with their Confucius sniff quietly in the corner.

          For example, gunpowder was first invented in Europe, in China, they just invented a method for its use in the form of filling signal flares and fireworks.

          Moreover, the development of what Chinese civilization really is began with the advent of the Black Sea Aryans to Manchuria, who taught the wild Chinese the wheel, horse-drawn transport and the production of bronze items. After that, the Chinese, who received a civilizational impulse, crawled to the Middle Ages, invented silk and paper and drowned in their swamp until a new impulse from the Japanese, Russians and Americans in the 20th century.
        3. Gato
          Gato April 25 2020 11: 46 New
          0
          The author compares 13th century Chinese and European cultures

          Yes, this is not very correct, different historical "phases". The much earlier Greco-Roman level of culture was quite possibly far superior to the contemporary Chinese.
          1. Trilobite Master
            April 25 2020 16: 28 New
            +6
            Quote: Gato
            Yes, this is not very correct, different historical "phases".

            This is the same time. I was comparing "by the moment".
      2. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 13: 50 New
        +7
        Quote: Operator
        European culture has overwhelming superiority over Chinese

        Only in the fevered imagination of a stubborn Eurocentrist. It's time to realize a simple truth - if you do not understand something, then this indicates your stupidity rather than the shortcomings of this "something".
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Trilobite Master
            April 25 2020 15: 34 New
            +6
            Does the Tatar mentality prompt me to protect the Chinese? laughing
            But the inferiority complex can be seen just from you - otherwise why shout at every corner that, they say, the Russians are the greatest? Confident people do not do this.
            Tatar, Ukrainian, Jewish and other radical nationalists are as disgusting to me as the Russians. No, perhaps, all the same, the Russians are more disgusting than all, because they speak the same language with me, they disgrace my people.
  • lucul
    lucul April 25 2020 08: 42 New
    0
    This may indicate that the Russian princes and governors did not neglect intelligence at all, but were limited only to military intelligence and interviewing refugees, having absolutely no intelligence information about the enemy.

    It only says that the Russians did not suffer from commercialism. At all times, all the traders / merchants (or businessmen in modern times) were the eyes and ears of the ruler of the country, in foreign countries doing business there. And the more of them there were, the more reliable was their information. And the Russians did not use this resource at all.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 09: 32 New
      +8
      About the Russian merchants.
      The Khans of the Bolshoi, and later the Golden Horde, more than once or twice slaughtered Russian settlements in the Sarai, "put in iron" and "did not let merchant guests" along the Volga, etc., before the next invasion of Russia!
      So, conclusions were drawn by both!
      I have another question for Mikhail: did the Mongols have a state intelligence apparatus, or is it still the merit of individuals (personalities)!
      For example, the Yamskiy (postal) system is essentially a tracing-paper of a similar service to the Persian power!
      What about the pass system? Or labels "letters" to the right? In fact, the historians of the power of Timuchin did not disclose the role of the person of the second or third plan!
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov April 25 2020 08: 45 New
    +7
    because these same "savages", nomads demonstrated unattainable for Europeans discipline, unity, controllability, technical equipment and organization

    In my opinion, after the death of the Roman Empire, the next who could achieve a similar level of army organization were the Mongols. Not in the sense that the Mongol army was organized according to the Roman model, but in the high level of organization of their army and all relevant services. Further, only in the new time something similar already appears. And all this did not appear out of nowhere, they accumulated and brought to a certain perfection for their time the centuries-old military experience of the nomads. Before them, powerful nomadic empires periodically arose, but only the Mongols were able to "shoot" this way.
  • svp67
    svp67 April 25 2020 08: 57 New
    +4
    Thanks to the author.
    If the prince had information about the Mongols’s advanced (at that time) siege equipment and competent personnel to manage it, perhaps he would have chosen a different strategy for the defense of his lands,
    It seems that the issues of counterintelligence in the Mongol-Tatars were worked out no worse, or even better than the intelligence itself.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 25 2020 09: 11 New
    11
    The answer of Eastern Europe was symmetrical - a centralized state represented by the Grand Duchy of Moscow, who wiped out Asian parasites from the face of the earth: the Mongol Empire, along with all the little pot-bellied things (Kazan, Astrakhan, Siberian, Crimean and other Tatar khanates).
    By the time the Moscow principality became a centralized state (end of the 1685th century), no Mongol empire (neither the first nor the second) had existed for more than a hundred years, and the role of the Moscow principality in this was not at all the main one. And the centralized Russian state paid tribute to the "splinter" of the Mongol empire, the Crimean Khanate, in fact until XNUMX, and the Crimean Khanate was "wiped off the face of the earth" already at the end of the XNUMXth century.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 09: 35 New
      +8
      I will supplement Viktor Nikolaevich, the last funeral of the Crimean Khan was paid by Catherine II. However, she put an “end” to this project!
  • alebor
    alebor April 25 2020 09: 17 New
    +4
    Very interesting and informative article.
    However, the last phrase about civilizational superiority seems too loud. Yes, of course, the centuries-old neighborhood and then the conquest of perhaps the most advanced country of that time - China, had to mean something, but it seems to me that this is not the main thing. In this regard, I would like to recall the well-known theory of "cultural circles" by Grebner, according to which (if we simplify it greatly) any people who have mastered some new advanced technology often gain superiority over their neighbors, which contributes to its dominance. But as soon as this achievement begins to spread among neighbors, the superiority is lost, with all the ensuing consequences. With regard to the Mongols, such an achievement was military science: the technique of warfare, the organization of the army, etc. (including intelligence), in which they really were able to surpass other peoples and thanks to which they were able to build a huge empire, sweeping away everyone in their path. But the fact that this empire very quickly disintegrated, and the Mongols in the occupied lands were rapidly assimilated by the local peoples, it seems to me, suggests that they did not possess any cultural, especially civilizational superiority. It is only a matter of possessing "advanced technologies" of warfare.
  • Peter is not the first
    Peter is not the first April 25 2020 09: 19 New
    +6
    Maybe the Russian princes knew more about the army of "Tatar-Mongols", but did not consider it necessary to spread all this to the Hungarian spy, Julian.
    Know, there should be more, since for several years on the border with the Volga Bulgaria they have been watching the war, and it is difficult for them to be deaf and blind to it. And in 1223 on the Kalka River, our great-grandfathers already felt the power of the enemy.
    So, the allies of the Tatar-Mongols were, first of all, our quarrel between the princes, and secondly, the wrong tactics in defense, chosen on the basis of Kadka’s experience, when there was a huge, strategic reconnaissance, and not an army ready as for field battles, so to the sieges, as described in the article.
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 25 2020 09: 44 New
    +5
    Great stuff, Michael! Hats off my professional hat!
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 25 2020 09: 47 New
    11
    It should be understood that in the XIII century. Europe was by no means the Europe that it will become in three centuries. That technical and technological superiority, which it will demonstrate centuries later, was just emerging (rather preparing to be born) in the crucible of numerous wars and conflicts of that time. The East, the Middle, and the Far, were at a much higher stage of cultural development. In fact, Europe was just a large peninsula on the northwestern edge of the inhabited oikumena, not too comfortable for life, not too developed industrially and culturally. One word - the outskirts of the world, nothing more.
    If the author is visited by inspiration and a desire arises, then this is the topic of the article, and not one.
    It would be especially interesting for a certain contingent, whose representatives are very fond of stories about the unwashed, living in Europe polluted by their own feces, but one should only mention the cultural superiority of the civilizations of the East, immediately fall into acute Eurocentrism and with a cry "What a damn civilizational superiority the dirty and smelly Asians had," rush together to defend "European civilization" from the encroachments "educated Tatars", and appealing to the ancient Greeks and Romans, as to the cradle of European cultural superiority.
    Meanwhile, for the ancient Greeks and Romans, "Europe" is nothing more than a geographical abstraction and they had practically no sense of "European" identity: their attention was focused more on the economically and culturally rich regions of the Mediterranean (Southern Europe, North Africa and the Middle East ).
    Moreover, it was the "Asians" who preserved the classical Greek and Roman cultural heritage, and in about the XNUMXth century, along with "Asian" science and philosophy, it began to enter Europe, serving as the basis for the first steps of the Renaissance.
    So there is something to write about. Not all the same about writing about the superethnos.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim April 25 2020 10: 38 New
      10
      Oh, judging by the minuses that have appeared, the superethnos - Eurocentrists have pulled themselves together.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer April 25 2020 16: 17 New
        +4
        Moreover, it was the "Asians" who preserved the classical Greek and Roman cultural heritage, and in about the XNUMXth century, along with "Asian" science and philosophy, it began to enter Europe, serving as the basis for the first steps of the Renaissance.

        You fight myths through other myths.
        Medieval Europeans were fully aware of their identity. "Christendom" is a reality
        The Renaissance is first of all an intra-European process, which, of course, could not do without outside influence.
        Europeans have preserved a fair amount of ancient heritage on their own.
        and they had practically no sense of "European" identity

        It was. Pax Romana. Although not pan-European. But there was never a pan-European identity at all.
        superethnos - Eurocentrists

        In a decent society, the ideas of Lev Nikolaevich are bad manners)
        1. Undecim
          Undecim April 25 2020 18: 30 New
          +5
          You fight myths through other myths.
          I do not in any way pretend to the ultimate truth, but I do not need to ascribe the creation of myths that I did not create.
          Medieval Europeans were fully aware of their identity. "Christendom" is a reality
          Where in my commentary did you see the denial of the identity of medieval Europeans?
          It was about the ancient Greeks and Romans.
          Renaissance is primarily an intra-European process
          Have I argued somewhere else?
          Europeans have preserved a fair amount of ancient heritage on their own.
          Did I deny it? The question is what part was saved and where, but this is another topic.
          It was. Pax Romana. Although not pan-European
          Was it or wasn’t it? And if so, which one? And if it was not European, what do you want to refute?
          In my commentary, I categorically do not state anything at all, if you have not noticed. I just wrote that it would be interesting to see a series of articles on the interaction of East and West in a cultural sense and dispel some myths about "dirty and smelly Asians".
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 25 2020 19: 26 New
            +1
            but I don’t have to attribute the creation of myths that I did not create.

            Undoubtedly, you personally did not create myths. But reproduce yourself.
            Myth № 1
            Moreover, it was the "Asians" who preserved the classical Greek and Roman cultural heritage,

            Many things were saved and many where. Dante Alighieri met Vergil and Homer not by Arabic translations. Plutarch, Titus Livius, Neoplatonism. Europe has preserved all this, and from the 12th-13th centuries it began to multiply.
            Myth number 2
            Where in my commentary did you see the denial of the identity of medieval Europeans?

            Here
            and they had practically no sense of "European" identity

            OR YOU focus on the word European done? Do you want to refute that christian world this is exactly civilizational a marker attributed specifically to Western Europe and not including Russia and Byzantium?
            Myth № 3
            and in about the XNUMXth century, together with "Asian" science and philosophy, it began to enter Europe, serving as the basis for the first steps of the Renaissance.

            The first steps of the Renaissance and their foundation - European theme and European achievement
            So it was or was not?

            Definitely it was. Definitely European.
            And if so, which one?

            Pax Romana, I wrote. It is quite clearly fixed from the edict of Caracalla on the granting of citizenship to all residents of the empire. And de facto existed before.
            I just wrote that it would be interesting to see a series of articles on the interaction of East and West in a cultural sense and dispel some myths about "dirty and smelly Asians".

            This is good, but let's still not go to the opposite extremes. The western world of the early and middle periods of the Middle Ages in terms of the sum of its aspects - civilizational, military, technical, cultural, will not yield to any other region.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim April 25 2020 20: 27 New
              +3
              I will try again.
              I did not say anything about the identity of medieval Europe, I said that neither the ancient Greeks nor the ancient Romans considered themselves "Europeans."
              You are breaking through the open door, trying to prove to me what I already agree with without your convictions, including the European Renaissance dating back to Charlemagne.
              Maybe I’m writing it too incomprehensibly?
              As for Pax Roman, it seems to me that we understand this term differently.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer April 25 2020 20: 43 New
                +2
                OK. About the denial of medieval identity, you wrote erroneously. He wrote a post in parallel with his studies.
                My thought, in order for an objective European community to exist, does not have to self-perceive itself as a "European"
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim April 25 2020 20: 45 New
                  +4
                  Always happy when the discussion ends constructively.
    2. Liam
      Liam April 25 2020 15: 25 New
      +3
      When two fanatical groups collide and find out which centrism is cooler, nothing worthwhile can come out a priori. Naturally, all five largest medieval civilizations, generalized Byzantine, Arab, Sino-Mongolian, Ottoman and European (starting with Charlemagne), experienced different periods of rise and fall and finding out who was cooler in the absolute is a stupid occupation. Anything happened there, including that the "uncouth" Europeans in the 11th century struck at the very heart of the "more developed" Arab world in Palestine and held out there for a couple of hundred years. And the main battles, by the way, were more between the first four civilizations, and not against Europe ...
      But the fact is the fact that no matter what state Europe was in, none of these civilizations at its peak could ever conquer it. Everyone stopped on the periphery. Arabs-Spain and Sicily, Mongols-Hungary, Ottomans-Balkans.
      1. Trilobite Master
        April 25 2020 16: 37 New
        +4
        But Europe in the onslaught to the east could not be stopped even by the Pacific Ocean - jumped to Alaska. smile But that was later. Then there was an onslaught to the west. And now the swing swayed again from east to west. And then they will probably sway again from west to east. But we will not see this, except in the great-great-grandchildren.
        1. Liam
          Liam April 25 2020 16: 55 New
          +1
          You kind of yourself wrote a little higher that we are talking about the 13/14 centuries and not about the 20-21 m. By the way about literature. At that time, such an insignificant thing as the Divine Comedy was born. Do not want to compare with a Chinese song?)
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          And now the swing swayed again from east to west.

          And how is this manifested?
          1. Trilobite Master
            April 25 2020 17: 04 New
            +6
            Yes, I’m so, philosophized a little ... On a planetary scale. Never mind. smile
          2. ORINCH
            ORINCH April 26 2020 23: 02 New
            0
            The Divine Comedy is the 14th century. Su Shi - 11th century, 300 years difference. And the analogue of "Notes at the head" of the 10th century, I think, appeared in Europe only by the age of 18. Moreover, the author of "Notes" was a woman!
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 25 2020 09: 53 New
    +1
    Many readers, although they themselves do not suspect this, know a vivid example of the work of the Chinese poet, as well as the statesman Su Dong-po, or Su Shi, who lived in China in the XNUMXth century. This is the song “Boat” performed by Konstantin Kinchev. Listen to the text of this song, it was written about 950 years ago, and then for comparison read the text “Songs of Roland” or “The Word about Igor’s Regiment”, written after a good hundred years on the other side of the globe. In no way do you want to belittle the artistic merit of both works,
    I imagined Kinchev singing in Chinese of the 11th century sample in one of Moscow stadiums. I tried to listen carefully. Smiled.
    In all three cases you are comparing the skill of the translator, and in the case of Kinchev, a banal retelling "based on". I would venture to suggest that few Chinese will be able to read the text of the 11th century, probably even fewer than the Russian "The Lay of Igor's Host."
    1. Undecim
      Undecim April 25 2020 10: 09 New
      10
      I would venture to suggest that few Chinese will be able to read the text of the 11th century, probably even fewer than the Russian "The Lay of Igor's Host."
      The risk, in this case, is completely unjustified, since the classical or book Chinese, Wenyang, was used as the state language from the VI century until 1919, when they switched to Baihua.
      Therefore, the modern Chinese language has saved a lot from january and any literate Chinese with the text of the XI century will cope without problems.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Engineer
      Engineer April 25 2020 16: 03 New
      +4
      My sister used the Thousand Words in the original to study modern Chinese. This is a literary monument from the 6th century
    4. Trilobite Master
      April 25 2020 16: 42 New
      +5
      Quote: Caretaker
      You are comparing the skill of a translator, and in the case of Kinchev, a banal retelling "based on".

      Kinchev - almost literally, the song omits one stanza of the poem. In general, read Su Shi.
      Among other things, these are really good poems. It will become quite obvious that the level of thinking of our ancestors and the Chinese in that era was not comparable.
      https://profilib.net/chtenie/487/su-dun-po-stikhi-melodii-poemy.php
      1. Caretaker
        Caretaker April 25 2020 18: 31 New
        +2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Kinchev - almost literally, the song omits one stanza of the poem. In general, read Su Shi.
        Among other things, these are really good poems. It will become quite obvious that the level of thinking of our ancestors and the Chinese in that era was not comparable.

        It will not be difficult for you to present in the original and translation into modern Russian, all three of the mentioned works (they will probably differ between different translators).
        Chinese in three versions, if you understand what I mean. Desirable "Listen to"in the lyrics of this song, as the author of the commentary suggests, in all six versions (minimum). Compare. No offense.
        Ponte and nothing more.
    5. ORINCH
      ORINCH April 26 2020 23: 15 New
      +1
      In China, the tradition of poetry, based on classical characters and strings, has remained in the educated class to this day. And compiling an essay on a topic arbitrarily set by the examiner from any classical essay has been part of the civil exam in China since the Tang Dynasty. Since exams were available regardless of class and, in fact, were the only social elevator, the educated class was quite numerous. It was easier for people to get classical images and thoughts through the ideas of the Chinese opera - their libretto was created on the basis of popular literary works and historical plots. So, in general, China was culturally quite a homogeneous society long before the introduction of universal education.
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 25 2020 10: 20 New
    +4
    If the prince had information about the Mongols having advanced (at that time) siege equipment and competent personnel to manage it, perhaps he would have chosen a different defense strategy for his lands, not relying on the possibility of delaying the invasion by the need for the Mongols to carry out numerous long sieges of Russian cities .
    Controversial statement. The only reason for the defeat of the Russian principalities in the confrontation with the united Horde was their fragmentation. Material and human resources were available. There was superiority in armament and equipment, as Julian rightly noted, there were fortified supply bases, but there was no consolidating center.
  • Cer59
    Cer59 April 25 2020 11: 38 New
    -3
    and so the continuation of delirium.
  • Hantengri
    Hantengri April 25 2020 12: 22 New
    +6
    And when the Mongol tumens appeared on the fields of Europe, she started with horror not because the Mongols showed unprecedented cruelty (the Europeans themselves were no less cruel to each other),

    My respect, Michael! hi Here, it seems to me, you are not quite right. The Europeans, of course, knew the "bad war" when they cut even those who had "golden mantles". But this was rather an unpleasant exception to the rule.
    The Mongols, on the other hand, terrified them precisely because they had not waged a "good war" in principle.
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 26 2020 13: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: HanTengri
      The Mongols, on the other hand, terrified them precisely because they had not waged a "good war" in principle.

      That is, they were more civilized, they waged war on a more civilized level. So everything is fine, I do not see a contradiction. smile smile
  • Andobor
    Andobor April 25 2020 12: 30 New
    +1
    Much depended on the weather, on the climate, or rather its changes, - a sharp aridization of climate occurred,
    - the fields are burning, the forests are burning, there is nothing to eat, everyone is cutting among themselves - they are being reduced for new productivity.
    “And then there are the Mongols, and they like the weather, it’s their landscape, they multiplied, began to rub among themselves,” they united, captured the closest civilizations, took their technology and organization from them, and trampled on their expanding landscape, where they didn’t have equal, and captured him, simplistically - where in the winter in those days there was no serious snow. Then again the climate changed. All serious historical movers associated with climate change. In antiquity, this is generally the only reason.
  • faterdom
    faterdom April 25 2020 13: 17 New
    +5
    This may indicate that the Russian princes and governors did not neglect intelligence at all, but were limited only to military intelligence and interviewing refugees, having absolutely no intelligence information about the enemy.

    The Russian princes were occupied with a more important matter (no, not amendments - then there was no Constitution yet!): The numerous descendants of the child-loving Vsevolod the Big Nest shared the inheritance, exterminating mutually Russian squads, peasants and causing each other all kinds of damage.
    So it would be better if the nest was not large, but better as part of one descendant.
    So we are some kind of distant Mongols, when here is next to the worst enemy relative! This is where all efforts should be directed; don’t joke with princes!
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 25 2020 16: 45 New
      +4
      Quote: faterdom
      the descendants of the child-loving Vsevolod the Big Nest shared the inheritance, exterminating mutually Russian squads, peasants and causing each other all kinds of damage.

      From this place in more detail, please.
      Is it like when and where? I know only one strife of 1216, twenty years before the Mongols.
      1. faterdom
        faterdom April 25 2020 17: 32 New
        +2
        Before his death, Vsevolod wanted to give Vladimir the eldest son Konstantin, and put Yuri in Rostov. But Konstantin wanted to take both Vladimir and Rostov. Then Vsevolod “calling all his boyars from cities and townships and Bishop John, and hegumen, and priests, and merchants, and nobles, and all people” and in front of the representatives of the Russian Land handed the principality to his youngest son - Yuri.

        Here is another manifestation of autocracy: the prince voluntarily violated all existing customs. This caused new controversy and strife.

        In 1212, the sons of Vsevolod the Big Nest divided the Principality of Vladimir-Suzdal: without any ladder. The principalities of Rostov (with Beloozero), Pereyaslavl, Yaroslavl, Suzdal formed. Ladder law was no longer valid, immediately another feud began. In addition to contention between the descendants of Vsevolod, the numerous impoverished princes of the Northeast sought to subjugate all of Russia. They wanted to dictate their will to Novgorod, blocking the supply of bread. They tried to capture Kiev, but could not stay on the throne, because they ruled without an eternity, "autocratic."

        In February 1216, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich captured Torzhok and blocked the food supply to Novgorod. Mstislav Udatny opposed the Vsevolozhich with his squad and Novgorod, and also called the Rostislavich squads, who ruled in Kiev, Smolensk and Pskov. The eldest son of Vsevolod the Big Nest, Konstantin, also joined this coalition. After all the civil strife, he fiercely hated the other brothers.

        The second coalition united the remaining sons of Vsevolod, the princes of the North-East. In fact, North-Eastern Russia fought with the rest of Russia.

        In 1216, on the Lipitsa River, near Yuryev-Polsky, the coalition of North-Eastern Russia was utterly defeated. Soon, the Novgorodians and Smolensk besieged Vladimir and forced the head of the coalition Yuri to complete surrender. The throne of Vladimir was occupied by an ally of Mstislav, the eldest Vsevolodovich - Konstantin. He died in 1218, and the feud broke out again. This continued until the Mongol invasion.

        The source, of course, is so-so, Wikipedia, but on the whole it is drawn to a full-fledged civil war, which, to the Mongol invasion, was quiet, but not stopped.
        And right after the invasion, unity did not smell, and even in the time of Dmitry Donskoy, and standing on the Ugra can say the same thing. But there already the enemy was not united for a long time, and completely fought with himself, sometimes involving Russian squads. But Tokhtamysh, who burned Moscow, was completely controlled by Tamerlan, whose aspirations, thank God, did not extend to Russia.
        1. Trilobite Master
          April 25 2020 19: 48 New
          +3
          In 1216, it was all over. Absolutely. In 1218, Konstantin died, Yuri occupied Vladimir, leaving Suzdal behind, the children of Konstantin settled down in Rostov land and never opposed their elders, Yaroslav sat in Pereyaslavl-Zalessky and was engaged mainly in Novgorod affairs. The rest of Vsevolodovich got their inheritance and political ambitions (which they had, by the way a little) realized outside the Vladimir-Suzdal principality. After 1216, no strife, 20 years of peace and tranquility. Military campaigns only against Lithuania and Germans in the west, against Sumi and Emi in the northwest and against the Bulgars in the east. Vsevolodovichi even in the strife in the south did not participate.
  • WayKheThuo
    WayKheThuo April 25 2020 15: 06 New
    +2
    Thanks to the author for the article!
    I completely agree with the Author about the unconditional advantage of the East over the West at the time of the Mongol invasion of Russia.
    Nevertheless, I would like to note the following:
    1. Again we were not ready. This, however, is usually for us. After all, they had already received it on Kalka and so well that they could understand who they were dealing with. 13 (!) Years have passed - a lot of time. Moreover, the enemy approached the borders, waiting for winter, but no - we will sit in the cities and wait for the invasion. Without blaming, I’ll tell you - he’s a shame for a power, damn it. It seems that everyone didn’t give a damn - like they would somehow carry it over - they would rob, cut the villagers (they are not people, right?) And return to the steppe. At the worst, let’s give some, that would fret and frets - they are savages unwashed, Yakshi? It didn’t.
    2. Yes, China was at that time a leading country. Yes, the Mongols took a lot from China. But what? By and large, only what is useful in a war. But in essence, the Mongols at that time reached the pinnacle of the development of the nomadic people and, by the way, are still arriving at this level. But the nomads and the townspeople are so different that one does not tolerate the other from the word “completely”. We are urban civilization, Khorezm, for example, was also. The conquest by the Mongols delayed us in development for a hundred or two years, and the Arabs generally went into a deep peak, in which they still arrive. The West should erect a monument to the Mongols of pure gold and inscribe on it "In gratitude for the defeated competitors."

    While Europe developed at the very least, founded the first universities, and the German, French and English barbarians took over, even with a sin, the great legacy of the once powerful urban civilization, while fighting each other in the same cultural field, our princes paid tribute to the nomads, nothing except for war, robbery and requisitions, driving a simple thought into the people: "What for to do something, anyway the Tatar will come and take everything." And okay, they would still pay - half the trouble, because they went to the headquarters to get a label for reigning. To reign on your own land! And so for centuries ...
    Unfortunately, history is an indivisible, viscous stream, and if something once went wrong, it is already very difficult to fix it - this course of time is too powerful and inertial, it leaves too deep a mark in the habits, worldview and customs of peoples.
    Our stream turned in the wrong direction in the late autumn of 1237.
    I think so.
  • Engineer
    Engineer April 25 2020 15: 44 New
    +8
    Good article overall. Including because a little-known source was chosen from us.
    The only rejection caused the conclusion
    China, which was the intellectual base for the Mongol Empire, far surpassed Europe in cultural and technical terms, and the same can be said about the countries of the Near and Middle East, conquered by the Mongols and included in the empire.

    If China is so advanced, then why did Jin become the first Mongol victim of all its neighbors?
    The subjective comparison of poetry as evidence of China's superiority is also unconvincing. You can recall the song of Beowulf and argue ad infinitum.
    The cultural and technical superiority of the Near and Middle East over the West is also far from a fact when it comes to the 13th century.
    In fact, everything is simpler and more complicated at the same time. Cultural development and military power are weakly correlated.
    Here are the main reasons for the success of nomads:
    According to modern views of Western historians, it was the nomads who for a long time led the way in military technology:
    Compound bows, first small, then large, mountains, saddle, contos, peak loop, Altai metallurgy of steel, an unprecedented percentage of ripened riders from Avars horse breeding. Two-handed swords of cavalrymen. Single-edged broadswords evolved into sabers. This is just offhand that it occurred to me.
    A nomadic lifestyle provides an unprecedented percentage of mobilization of a combat-ready population and exceptional mobility, coupled with the best (average) food quality
    Nomadic peoples from the time of the ancient Turks developed an exceptionally successful scheme for incorporating the defeated nomadic tribes into a state.
    And the most important thing.
    While the Mongols practiced a total war with severe centralization, the extremely inefficient feudal service with a 40-day service life continued to dominate in the West. Over the term, for a separate price. This organizational superiority is rooted in the socio-political forms of life of the two clashing civilizations.

    Still, you need to specify the sources. The author rightly claims a high level of knowledge, therefore, one must comply
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 26 2020 13: 30 New
      +3
      Denis, welcome.
      Yesterday several times I tried to write an answer, but each time something was distracting.
      So.
      Quote: Engineer
      why jin became the first victim of the mongols

      The first victim of the Mongols was still Xia. Although it was not possible to defeat them completely, rather, to subdue them, they carried out a campaign against Qin, as it were, already jointly under the general leadership of Genghis.
      Quote: Engineer
      Subjective comparison of poetry as evidence of China's superiority

      The question is not whether you like or dislike the poem. Comparison of "The Word ..." or "Roland" with the poems of Su Shi, in my opinion, regardless of personal preferences, shows that European poets by that time still thought exclusively in specific categories - what I see is what I sing. There are figurative expressions, comparisons, but they are applied to concrete objects, abstract thinking is absent or is in its infancy. Su Shi's inner world is much richer, his emotions are more complex, thoughts, regardless of the way they are expressed, are obviously deeper. European poetry reached this level only during the Renaissance, that is, two or three centuries after the Mongols and, accordingly, three or four centuries after Su Shi.
      Quote: Engineer
      Cultural development and military power are weakly correlated.

      I agree. But the article, or rather, two articles, was devoted specifically to intelligence, and not to the armed forces in general. In my opinion, diplomacy and intelligence, or rather, their effectiveness and usefulness directly depend on the cultural level of those who deal with them. That the excellent intelligence of the Mongol Empire was the only or even the main reason for its victories, I have never argued. I just got tired of talking about "smelly" "primitive" nomads, so I wanted to show by the example of intelligence that they were not at all primitive. A similar example is, for example, the courier, quartermaster or engineering service mentioned in the discussion.
      Quote: Engineer
      nomads have long been leaders in military technology:

      And again I agree, moreover, I am ready to even expand this thesis somewhat. For millennia, the steppe was generally the birthplace of most of the achievements of mankind, starting with the first primitive cattle breeding and the first wheel and ending, like the Mongols, with the organization of the longest continuous continental empire. Actually, if you look at this question as broadly as possible, all the civilizations of Eurasia (I will not talk about America and Africa) have their steppe as their homeland. People generally come from the steppe. smile
      I will not argue with the fact that you wrote about the main reasons for the success of the Mongols - everything is right.
      At the same time, a high culture of handling remote-control weapons, high mobilization ability, high army mobility, and high society tolerance are characteristic of any nomadic culture - this is provided simply by the nomad’s lifestyle. Wide open spaces gave rise to long-range bows, the need to use it while riding a horse made these bows compact, the proximity in their specificity to shepherding and military activity early turns all men into warriors, and the need to constantly move from place to place in search of forage teaches mobility and tolerance - with regular changes in the habitat, nomads all the time meet new people, communicate, exchange experience. Nomadic society is the most open.
      All this was not only among the Mongols of Genghis Khan.
      Further, in your opinion, the most important thing.
      Quote: Engineer
      the Mongols practiced total war with fierce centralization

      But this, too, as a relic of the tribal system was characteristic of many, many, and not only steppes.
      That is, all these reasons have a place to be, but they did not distinguish the Mongols of Genghis Khan from the total mass of numerous nomads.
      And what made them stand out, in my opinion, is that Genghis Khan began to absorb from the Chinese the methods of civil administration of the conquered territories, not limiting himself to borrowing exclusively in the military sphere. He copied from the more developed (and possibly the most developed on the planet at that time) Chinese methods of managing vast territories, with all their specialized "ministries", "federal services" (including intelligence - the topic, in fact, articles), positions and ranks, with territorial authorities. Moreover, he did not copy blindly, but consciously, while preserving his Mongolian "self", emphasizing the existing ones and constantly creating his new differences from the conquered peoples, distancing himself from them.
      And by the way, as soon as this distancing ceased and the Mongolian elite ceased to be purely Mongolian, the empire immediately came to an end.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer April 26 2020 14: 45 New
        +2
        Michael, welcome.
        You wrote a polemical article in some way (definitely good). Unfortunately, due to the scarcity of the original sources, you went to some provocation in the conclusions, however, it is quite normal for a popular article.
        In fact, Europe was just a large peninsula on the northwestern edge of the inhabited oikumena, not too comfortable for life, not too developed industrially and culturally. One word - the outskirts of the world, nothing more.
        China, which was the intellectual base for the Mongol Empire, far surpassed Europe in cultural and technical terms, and the same can be said about the countries of the Near and Middle East, conquered by the Mongols and included in the empire.

        Europe in the 13th century was unequivocally a civilizational center not inferior in the sum of indicators to any other
        China is a country of contrasts. Total literacy of officials, state examinations, schools. And at the same time, the catastrophic results of the confrontation with nomads and peasant wars are inconceivable in any other state in scale.
        A few points that seemed controversial
        the need to constantly move from place to place in search of forage teaches mobility and tolerance - with regular changes in the habitat, nomads constantly meet new people, communicate, share experiences. Nomadic society is the most open.

        Tolerance is an extremely unfortunate word for nomads. There would not be generalize
        First AVARA.
        Secondly :
        We will destroy them completely, equal in height to a cart check

        In the first approximation, the relationship between the Mongols and the conquered fits into the standard "predator-victim" scheme. In this case, the conquered nomads are quoted somewhat higher than the settled ones.
        Total war
        But this, too, as a relic of the tribal system was characteristic of many, many, and not only steppes.

        Total war in Mongolian from the tribal system inherited only blood feud. This is something hitherto unprecedented. One massive use of hashar is worth
        And by the way, as soon as this distancing ceased and the Mongol elite ceased to be purely Mongol, the empire immediately came to an end.

        The experience of history clearly shows the inability to distance oneself from Chinese culture while living among the Chinese. The Mongolian elite objectively did not pull over the management of the empire. Officials replaced warriors.
        1. Trilobite Master
          April 26 2020 15: 34 New
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          you went for some provocation in the conclusions

          Not without it. smile And he went completely consciously, with a cold head. smile
          I just noticed that the thoughts expressed vividly and figuratively, the facts presented emotionally
          in an artistic manner, arouse less confidence in the reader, but are much better remembered. One could express the same idea in a dry academic language, but then it would not be accepted, although it would not cause objections. I decided that the goals that I set for this article (and the previous one too, they were generally conceived as a whole) are more consistent with this option.
          Quote: Engineer
          Europe in the 13th century was unequivocally a civilizational center not inferior in the sum of indicators to any other

          Most people, as I have noticed, in any case in the European part of Russia, believe that European civilization is the only one on the planet and has always been such that Europe has always stood at the head of progress since ancient times and has been the measure of civilization for everyone else.
          Whether Europe was inferior to China, the East, or superior is a separate question. If you express your thoughts on this issue in a short article, I think many will be interested in it, at least for me. But here you need to clearly define the criteria by which these different civilizations can be compared, and this will be very difficult to do. It will also not be easy to define the term "European civilization" - what does this mean, whether to refer to it Rome and Byzantium. However, you have already talked about this with Viktor Nikolaevich. For me, Europe was inferior, moreover, seriously and noticeably. She was still young to compete with the East, wild and untidy. smile
          Quote: Engineer
          China is a country of contrasts. Total literacy of officials, state examinations, schools. And at the same time, the catastrophic results of the confrontation with nomads and peasant wars are inconceivable in any other state in scale.

          And a little earlier
          Quote: Engineer
          Cultural development and military power are weakly correlated.

          Everything is correct. The Golden Age of Russian Culture at the End of the XNUMXth Century also coincided with relative weakness and helplessness militarily. There is even some pattern in this. Dante Italy, Cervantes Spain, Goethe Germany ...
          I understand tolerance as the absence of a painful reaction to foreign introduction. Yes, the nomads in general and the Mongol empire in particular, in my opinion, are quite tolerant. In the course of hostilities, everything is subordinate to achieving victory. Hence the action on the total destruction of the population. They were simply determined by the current situation, in any case, according to the persons holding these shares. With the end of the war, the Mongols became extremely tolerant, easily including in the composition of their own elite local nobles, naturally, from among those who survived during the war.
          Quote: Engineer
          The Mongolian elite objectively did not pull over the management of the empire. Officials replaced warriors.

          Warriors, in principle, are incapable of management, otherwise they would be officials. You wanted to say, probably, that the Chinese replaced the Mongols? smile
          I would say differently - the Mongols themselves became Chinese, Persians, etc. Just by losing his Mongol "self", for which Chingiz so stood up and in the process losing the empire.
          1. Liam
            Liam April 26 2020 15: 58 New
            +3
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Not without it. And he went completely deliberately, with a cold head

            “CHINGISKHAN. Unknown Asia ”Alexander BUSHKOV - M .: CJSC“ OLMA Media Group ”, 2007. - 544 pages. Circulation 25 copies.

            Is it great honor to come from Europe, my sirs? And is there any honor at all? Let me doubt it.




            Calling a spade a spade, Europe is nothing more than a tiny peninsula in the west of the great Asian continent. A wretched, cramped peninsula inhabited by a horde of primitive tribes, whose main occupation for many years was to slaughter each other


            Nothing is new on VO

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Europe was inferior, and seriously and noticeably

            The only criterion of truth is reality. None of these "supercivilizations" could conquer Europe, they didn’t even have enough strength for a serious attempt. Unless the Turks tried to dash to Vienna and paid with a military catastrophe and the beginning of their end as a superpower. than a hundred years later they were beaten by all and sundry.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Cultural development and military power are poorly correlated


            This is nonsense. Culture and, in a more general sense, education, always give "exhaust" in real life. Universities in Salerno, Bologna, Paris, Toulouse, Oxford, Cambridge in a couple of hundred years led to a revolution in military affairs due to the emergence and proliferation of firearms , in printing, in shipbuilding, etc., etc. All this gave the technological advantage of Europe and European culture to this day.
            Other civilizations have not given anything like this. The rest are fantasies and theories.
            1. Trilobite Master
              April 26 2020 17: 03 New
              +4
              Quote: Liam
              None of these "supercivilizations" could conquer Europe, they didn’t even have enough strength for a serious attempt.

              Is it?
              And the great migration of peoples? Huns fighting under the French Chalon? Arabs who reached Poitiers? Avars, Hungarians? I also consider the Mongols' attempt to be completely credible - almost all of Eastern Europe was in their power for many years. The Ottomans' onslaught against Europe is simply the last, so to speak, demobelic chord of the onslaught of the East to the West. After half a millennium the onslaught of the West to the East lasted. Who can guarantee that now we are not witnessing the beginning of a new onslaught of East to West?
              Well, in any case, just as the East did not succeed in conquering the West, so the West did not succeed in solving the "Eastern question". No.
              And in the XIII century. East, in my opinion, the West still exceeded in all basic criteria, whatever they were.
              1. Liam
                Liam April 26 2020 17: 38 New
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                And the great migration of peoples?

                Are we about Europe or the Roman Empire? These are different civilizations, as it were. Europe is from Charlemagne.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Poitiers

                Periphery. Pyrenees and Sicily for the Arabs, Hungary for the Mongols, the Balkans for the Turks. Although the Balkans are not Europe, this is Byzantium.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                I also consider the Mongols' attempt to be completely credible - almost all of Eastern Europe was in their power for many years

                Eastern Europe is Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary. I don’t remember what the Mongols would rule for centuries. They ruled in Russia, but Byzantium and not Europe there.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Who can guarantee that now we are not witnessing the beginning of a new onslaught of East to West?

                We are, as it were, about history and about what happened, and not about alternative futurology).
                There are currently no signs of such an onslaught. Quite a set from it. As long as the East takes over the Western model more and more strongly.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  April 26 2020 20: 28 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Liam
                  These are different civilizations.

                  In general, yes, I agree. Only not from the great Charlemagne, but, probably, from the Merovingians, from now on.
                  Quote: Liam
                  Eastern Europe is Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary.

                  Geographically it is Central Europe. East is Russia and Volga Bulgaria up to the Urals.
                  Quote: Liam
                  They ruled in Russia, but there, Byzantium and not Europe

                  Russia before the Mongol invasion clearly and without options belonged to European civilization, and not Byzantine. Common with Byzantium - only Orthodoxy, but this is not enough to recognize Russia as part of the Byzantine civilization. But with Europe in common is complete, starting with the social system and ending with material culture, trade relations, matrimonial unions, etc. Pre-Mongol Rus is an integral part of Europe, albeit in some way its periphery with its own characteristics.
                  So both geographically and "civilizationally" the Mongol Empire, and later the Horde for three centuries dominated over a third of Europe and, accordingly, over the carriers of European civilization.
                  And so we have the following picture: During the first ten centuries of its existence, European civilization was constantly subjected to pressure from the east, losing more than half of the occupied territory. Further, for some time the struggle went on with varying success - in the fourteenth century. Lithuania begins to squeeze the Horde on sovr. Ukraine, in the XV century. Russia was liberated and the Spanish Reconquista ended, but the Balkans and part of Central Europe were lost. Since the XVI century. Europe launched a counterattack - Russia took a step beyond the Urals, the Turks are gradually being driven out of Europe (they have not been forced out, by the way), Europe is moving across the oceans to Asia and America.
                  And now the reverse process has begun - migrants from Asia to Europe, the Far East under the terrible demographic pressure of China.
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          2. Engineer
            Engineer April 26 2020 17: 12 New
            +2
            Michael, you are a very correct person in a polemic).
            Even too correct to argue.
            .
            It will also not be easy to define the term "European civilization" - what does this mean, whether to refer to it Rome and Byzantium.

            Why such difficulties? Byzantium is not included, it is a separate civilization. At least Toynbee.
            Rome in the Middle Ages clearly enters into European civilization. The spiritual center, whatever one may say.
            For me, Europe was so inferior, moreover, seriously and noticeably. She was still young in order to compete with the East, wild and untidy.

            You have some abstract East. Will not work. China separate civilization, Central Asia separately, Levant separately
            The trump cards of Europe for the 13th century are mining business, drawing camp, winemaking, architecture and fortification, workshop organization, universities, chivalry (the last plus and minus at the same time) and Catholicism (no one canceled the export of ideology). This is the first thing that comes to mind. Not bad for untidy rascals on the outskirts of the world as for me.
            With the end of the war, the Mongols became extremely tolerant

            Baaalshoy question
            1. Trilobite Master
              April 26 2020 17: 56 New
              +3
              More than a moot point. Roman civilization may well be considered separate, self-sufficient. To consider it European solely on a geographical basis seems to me not quite right. The concept of civilization is much broader and includes a host of other signs besides territoriality. So that
              Rome, I would raise a very fatty question.
              In my opinion, European civilization originates from the barbarian kingdoms formed in Europe as a result of the Great Migration. And to the XIII century. she really was still young, let's say - on the runway.
              Quote: Engineer
              You have some abstract East.

              Exclusively for brevity. Specifically, I had in mind all the civilizations that lie in the Asian part of the continent. Plus Byzantium with its dual position.
              Everything that you listed as the trump cards of Europe was present in one way or another in the East (for brevity smile ), of course, with its small-town flavor, Europe was by no means a monopoly of these phenomena and was not even a leader.
              As a separate point, I would note the workshop organization - a phenomenon, in my opinion, that in many respects gave rise to the technological leap in Europe, which it will begin to demonstrate a couple of hundred years after the XNUMXth century. But in the XIII century. it was a far from decisive factor, in my opinion, not even very noticeable.
              Quote: Engineer
              Baaalshoy question

              laughing
              Is it Michael Svet Vsevolodovich, Prince of Chernigov? smile
              Well, this one was very painfully punished before the Mongols:
              a) Participated in the battle of Kalka, that is, raised weapons against the Mongols.
              b) The execution of the Mongolian ambassadors in Kiev - by the way, quite authorized. Then shamefully escaped.
              c) He did not appear at the headquarters of the khan on demand, that is, disobeyed.
              For any of these sins, only for one thing, he could and should have been executed without options in the Yang of Genghis Khan.
              And he also, according to "Life" at the rate of Batu, showed off in an inappropriate way. Probably, he understood that there was nothing to lose, so at least he died with dignity by the standards of the XIII century. - for the faith.
              Although the main reason for his execution, it seems to me, was purely political considerations - Batu did not need him alive. Let him go home - he would have unleashed yet another strife either with Daniil for Galich, or with Yaroslav for Kiev, or against the Mongols with Hungarians, he would have begun to think of something, there, at the court of Bela IV, his son Rostislav was constantly sitting. Unreliable was a man, cunning, slippery. Well, as an indicative flogging, it was just as good as a candidate.
              Batu did not touch the other princes. smile
              1. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2020 18: 16 New
                +1
                More than a moot point. Roman civilization may well be considered separate, self-sufficient

                Antique Rome undoubtedly. Medieval Italy, which arose on the fragments of a Gothic power, the Lombard duchies, with the Scandinavian kingdom in the south, is an integral part of the Western world. Italy is the product of IDPs. How can I imagine Western civilization separately from Rome with the spiritual leader of all Catholics, I can not imagine at all.
                Exclusively for brevity. Specifically, I had in mind all the civilizations that lie in the Asian part of the continent.

                This is a methodological error in its purest form. You can not compare civilization with a group of civilizations. The group in terms of achievements will always be ahead. You, in fact, have succeeded. Europe and China, Europe and the Levant, but not Europe and the East
                Europe was by no means a monopolist of these phenomena and was not even a leader.

                What was not a leader? I remind you that we are talking about the 13th century. In heavy cavalry of ram type? In fortification? In architecture?
                The shop structure is 100% progressive for that time.
                in the French capital of the late 80th century, women were admitted to 120 of XNUMX workshops

                Here is the 13th century. Progress and emancipation of women. Is the role of the workshops still invisible?
                Is it Michael Svet Vsevolodovich, Prince of Chernigov?

                Why such foolishness?
                Executed for precisely faith? Not for past sins? So tolerance is in question
                1. Trilobite Master
                  April 26 2020 20: 05 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  You can not compare civilization with a group of civilizations.

                  Perhaps you are right here. It is necessary to disassemble separately, but I do not know the East very well (again, for brevity). I will think. smile
                  Quote: Engineer
                  In heavy ramming cavalry

                  In the XIII century. they were still just amused riders with spears at best, under the armpit. Until plate armor and a nursery saddle is still at least half a century, and more. Just the heavy cavalry that many had. I won’t say anything about China, but in Persia, the Mongols and Arabs had complete analogues of European chivalry on the battlefields.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  In fortification

                  Again, those castles that we now see throughout Europe, in the XIII century. were not yet built and most often represented a square tower, wall and gate.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  In architecture

                  Yes, the same thing.
                  With workshops - yes, this is a clear step forward. But this is perhaps the only thing that Europe stood out from its competitors in a positive way. It is also necessary, however, to look at how the eastern neighbors of the near and distant faced this issue.
                  Scholasticism and dogma prevailed in science, universities, of course, were great, but what was taught in them? Culture in its infancy, secular art after the defeat of the Albigensians almost disappeared - even the little that was destroyed.
                  About Mikhail - I just smiled, this is not foolishness. smile On VO there is a detailed article about him, a "Hero of his Time" was published for a long time ... I have certain memories associated with this article. smile
                  Judging by our chronicles and "life" the reason for the execution of Mikhail was precisely religion and it alone. But I gave you three reasons why he certainly had to be executed, and without any tricks on his part. In addition, his death was beneficial to the Mongols from a political point of view, I also stated these considerations in the previous commentary. Therefore, there is every reason to believe that the religious implication of the execution of Michael, if not a complete invention, then a clear exaggeration. Neither before nor after this executions for such reasons were carried out by the Mongols (Tatars), but for political reasons - a lot. So even if we take the "life" and some of the chronicle news on faith and state the execution on a confessional basis, it will be the only one against the background of many others.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer April 26 2020 20: 32 New
                    0
                    In the XIII century. they were still just amused riders with spears at best, under the armpit.

                    Not so easy. These are longer spears, larger horses (although not yet destruction). These are tophelms and unsurpassed sharpening precisely for a crushing blow with a spear. There is a fact- the frontal attacks of the knights were feared and whenever possible avoided EVERYTHING.
                    Again, those castles that we now see throughout Europe, in the XIII century. were not yet built and most often represented a square tower, wall and gate.

                    Crac de Chevalier
                    In architecture

                    Yes, the same thing.

                    Trolling or what?
                    Notre Dame de Paris have many rivals?
                    Scholasticism and dogma prevailed in science, universities, of course, were great, but what was taught in them?

                    For the 13th century, this is true for any civilization. Or were the Arabs in the madrasah not the surahs of the Koran first studied?
                    Therefore, there is every reason to believe that the religious subtext of the execution of Michael, if not a complete fiction, then a clear exaggeration.

                    That is the fact that the Life, Galician Chronicle, Lavrentievsky Chronicle and the testimony of a certain Mr. Karpini are in good agreement. Doesn’t it bother you?
                    Your interpretation is speculation, albeit in an English neutral sense. If all sources "beat" like this, then there is no point in producing entities.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      April 26 2020 22: 44 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Engineer
                      the knights were frightened by the frontal attack and whenever possible avoided EVERYTHING.

                      In addition to the same knights. Do you really think that Europe had a monopoly on heavy equestrian spearmen? Well, honestly, I would now search for materials on the heavy cavalry both in Byzantium and in some Maverannahr, but I’m just sure that this is superfluous, you yourself all know this very well.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Crac de Chevalier

                      Well, well, the castles were more complicated than with one tower, I did not say that they are all like that. But are you sure that the same Persians or Chinese did not have anything cooler at that time, take at least the Chinese tulou, which were built about five hundred years earlier or the notorious Alamut castle? Moreover, the Crac de Chevalier, if my memory serves me, was also rebuilt several times, or rather, it was completed, complicated.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Trolling or what?
                      Notre Dame de Paris have many rivals?

                      I have a similar feeling.
                      A lot of. Mosques in Bukhara, Kalyam mosque, for example, temples and monasteries of China. Notre Dame is a phenomenon only within Europe, but not on a global scale. Look, at least Ibrahim Hussein’s palace in Samarkand should be remembered. No, you really do not troll me now?
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Or were the Arabs in the madrasah not the surahs of the Koran first studied?

                      The key word is "first." It was only in the conditional Paris that it all ended, and in the conditional Bukhara, this was just the beginning. There was astronomy and alchemy and history and literature and medicine.
                      Well, about Mikhail Chernigovsky, an old friend of mine - if you want to - consider him a victim of Mongolian religious fanaticism. Although the same Carpini writes that
                      And since they do not comply with any law on worship, no one else, as far as we know, has been forced to abandon their faith or law, with the exception of Michael, as mentioned above.

                      I believe that his execution was due to purely political reasons, but I can’t imagine how to convince you of this.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer April 26 2020 23: 20 New
                        +1
                        Michael, somehow we went misunderstanding out of the blue.
                        Heavy cavalry is known to all. Only in the 11th century did the Europeans have had no rivals in a head-on collision of horsemen.
                        Battle of Durazzo. Battle of Monzhizar. Battle pr Arzufe. Testimonies of Arab authors, the same ibn Munkiz
                        The defeat is certain. were but I don’t immediately remember when the knights were broken by a frontal blow and even with a comparable number without a long preliminary operational exhaustion. Recall, at least, how faithfully played Saladin under Hattin
                        Krak de Chevalier, if my memory serves me, was also rebuilt several times, or rather, it was completed, complicated.

                        As far as I know, the 13th century finally took shape
                        temples and monasteries of China

                        Which ones?
                        Tianning, The Pagoda of the Six Harmonies is ever lower. Plus sculptural decoration.
                        I still didn’t remember that old St. Paul in London. Just 13th Century
                        Only in conditional Paris did that end

                        Faculty of Law in the 13th century at the University of Paris, where in the afternoon (with the reservation, it is true that the law is canonical Le droit canonique)?
                        The Faculty of Medicine has existed there since 1200. Faculty of Art from about the same time
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        April 27 2020 12: 27 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        we went misunderstanding out of the blue.

                        This is normal. smile
                        During the discussion, I felt a lack of knowledge on some specific issues, in the style of "well, I remember that this is so, I read it", but where I read it and what exactly ... oops. smile
                        Ldano, I think the topic can be completed, each remained with his own.
                        Sincerely. hi
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer April 27 2020 12: 48 New
                        +1
                        each remained at his own

                        This is normal. For me, the goal is to expand the horizons of knowledge and perception
                2. ORINCH
                  ORINCH April 26 2020 23: 36 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  That is the fact that the Life, Galician Chronicle, Lavrentievsky Chronicle and the testimony of a certain Mr. Karpini are in good agreement. Doesn’t it bother you?
                  Your interpretation is speculation, albeit in an English neutral sense. If all sources "beat" like this, then there is no point in producing entities.

                  All sources indicated by you are indoctrinated, it’s obvious. All of them were created by Christian political instructors, and their assessments should be approximately the same.
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 April 25 2020 16: 54 New
    +2
    A little off topic, but I would like material about the "Zolotarevskaya" Battle of the Peoples "of the XIII century." This is the vicinity of Penza. Info on the network is extremely small. And the professional historians from Penza are only fond of flipping through Soviet newspapers.
  • Operator
    Operator April 25 2020 18: 52 New
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    your blessed europe

    You are an Asian - mind you, I didn’t say that.
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs April 25 2020 19: 09 New
    +2
    The second article in the series is much more interesting for me personally. Continue, thanks!
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 25 2020 22: 57 New
    0
    What are the two opus of the author? That not our ancestors were engaged in intelligence. And who did not do it? Want peace, get ready for war.
  • Jurkovs
    Jurkovs April 26 2020 10: 25 New
    -1
    Well, it’s not a shame to be the heirs of the Mongols. Only something that the modern Mongols do not see anything outstanding.
  • Sergey79
    Sergey79 April 26 2020 22: 26 New
    0
    The sources presented by the author of the TATAR, and he quickly turned them into Mongols ....
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity April 27 2020 09: 21 New
    0
    Many readers, although they themselves do not suspect it, know a vivid example of the work of the Chinese poet, as well as the statesman Su Dong-po, or Su Shi, who lived in China in the 950th century. This is the song "Boat" performed by Konstantin Kinchev. Listen to the text of this song, it was written about XNUMX years ago, and then for comparison read the text “Songs of Roland” or “The Word of Igor’s Regiment”, written after a good hundred years on the other side of the globe. In no way would I like to belittle the artistic merits of both works, but the difference between them and the poetic works of a Chinese official seems so striking that it seems to be the best illustration of the thesis about the general lag of Europe from Asia during the Middle Ages.

    Compare opu with a finger! Where are we wretched!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world April 27 2020 16: 48 New
    -1
    All fans of the "supermen of the conquerors" of the Mongols have a question.
    Everyone refers to the monk Karpini in describing the Mongols and their accomplishments, but to whom Karpini himself refers as an ambassador and not knowing the languages. As Karpini himself writes - I received all this information (about achievements and so on) from the Hungarians, Russian Clerics, and others who were with them and participated in all their deeds and accomplishments. Some 30 years, others 20 years. third 10 years, some more others less. Since they knew the language of the Tatars and their customs. He was at the headquarters of the Tatars in 1246. Subtracting from 1246-30 results in 1216.
    Question - What force made the Hungarians come to the Tatars already in 1216 and participate in all their accomplishments. How did they find out that they needed to drag in such a distance. When they went to Europe you think I know. The same thing about the Russian Clerics. It is desirable clearly and with the use of Okama's razor.
    Wish you success. And then I asked doctors and candidates for history.
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 28 2020 18: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Vlad-world
      What force forced the Hungarians to come to the Tatars already in 1216

      Only the power of your imagination.
      If you read Carpini's text carefully as it was written, you will see that Hungarians, Russians and "others" are listed there. Of these, "some" were with the Mongols for 30 years. Nowhere is it written that these were exactly Russians or Hungarians. Why not assume that these "some" were Arab merchants who went to China and Russia? In any case, you first need to prove that it was the Russians or Hungarians who went with the Mongols for thirty years.
      Quote: Vlad-world
      I here asked doctors and candidates for history

      And they, of course, did not say anything, for by your question you have put all historical science at a standstill. laughing
      And let's specifically - who, how and what exactly did you ask. And what did you get answered. And then, maybe the doctor was a mathematical sciences, and you are his "in history"?
      Quote: Vlad-world
      All refer to the monk Karpini in the description of the Mongols and their accomplishment

      On Rubruk, on Julian, on Russian annals, Chinese and Persian chronicles, European annals, on archeology, numismatics, linguistics ... And you only know Karpini, and even you read it as God puts it to you, not how it is written.
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world April 28 2020 21: 22 New
        0
        1. Read carefully - doctors and candidates for history.
        2. It is possible to assume also green little men. Neither Rubvix nor Karpini mentions Arab merchants, nor does Chinese specialists.
        3. In the Russian chronicles alone Tatars. If you find the Mongols, then indicate. And do not say that the Mongols and the Tatars are one and the same. Genetics does not allow. And the ancestors were not fools and distinguished some peoples from others.
        4. In the European annals, alas, too, the Tatars, as in the Persian ones. In unreadable sections of the Persian text, translators put (as they themselves recognize) the Mongols.
        5. If you admire the "Mongol conquerors" so much, then explain how they coped with the delivery of fodder for their (at least) 100000th cavalry. Where was the grain taken from, how was it delivered and so on. Tales about grass are not accepted on the way, otherwise the real conqueror Napoleon had Big problems with fodder. And he had business in the summer. For information, in ancient Rome, horses in the cavalry, in addition to grazing and hay, were given 6 liters of grain every day. And they were not like fools in military affairs.
        1. Trilobite Master
          April 28 2020 21: 50 New
          0
          Quote: Vlad-world
          Doctors and candidates for history.

          Still ra - who exactly, what exactly you asked, what answered you? I just can hardly imagine a professional historian who cannot clearly answer such questions. These questions are already many years old and the answers to them have been given for a long time - you only have to puzzle yourself with the search.
          Quote: Vlad-world
          You can also assume green people.

          What many are doing. Where is it written that it was the Russians and the Hungarians who were in Karakorum for thirty years? Once again we read: "and others" and "some of them". On the basis of Karpini's work, it is impossible to refute the thesis, for example, of the following content: "There was not a single Russian or Hungarian who had been in Karakorum for more than twenty (ten) years." Read carefully.
          Quote: Vlad-world
          In the Russian chronicles alone Tatars

          Who are the Tatars? Where did this name come from? Any historian will tell you this without any problems, even I know. There is also a perfectly sane answer, but the question is why this name was used by Russian chroniclers and European chroniclers. And I even broadcast this explanation in discussions not so long ago.
          Quote: Vlad-world
          If you admire the "Mongol conquerors" so much, then explain

          A hundred times already explained. Read historical literature. My fingers hurt to type on the keyboard the same thing for every lazy person. Briefly on forage - they took in the village barns what the Russians stocked up to feed their own cattle for the winter. That is why the invasions began in late autumn - that in 1237, that in 1240
          And, by the way, modern estimates of the number of Mongols invading Russia range from 30 to 40 thousand in 1237 and up to 50 thousand in 1240.
          You are all such lovers of criticizing historians, and how many of you have read at least one of their writings? For example, what did you read about the Mongol invasion? Without an answer to this question, I consider further discussion pointless and useless.
          1. Vlad world
            Vlad world April 29 2020 10: 23 New
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            Oh well.
            1. To get to the Russian barns you need to go some distance. Where are the barns and where is Mongolia. Look at the map. And this is how, passing this distance, they supplied their cavalry with grain (fodder). There is no answer, alas. Napoleon at a shorter and more crowded population distance had significant problems with fodder. Leading to the death of almost all horses. And here -Oh- and the Mongols are already in Russia.
            2. There is still no answer to my question from you, nor from historians.
            3. As expected, there will be no adequate answer from the Admirer before "M-Z". Some emotions, accusations and so on.
            1. Trilobite Master
              April 29 2020 12: 31 New
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              Great position. I myself will not read anything, but you answer me. Moreover, every second. And everyone needs to be personally explained. Believe me, no, but I’m really tired of repeating the same thing from time to time. At first I tried to clarify, then I gave a list of references where all this is. Useless. Six months later, from the same person the same questions with the same aplomb. What do you want to do?
              Once again: there is an excellent book written relatively recently, in it all aspects of the emergence and formation of the Mongol empire are analyzed in detail, including many questions, if not all, with which skeptics-amateurs, such as, baffle historians, in detail. The book is called "The Military Power of Genghis Khan", the author is Roman Khrapachevsky. If you read it, you may find there answers to your questions. It also covers the "technique" of moving large horse masses across the steppe.
              1. Vlad world
                Vlad world April 29 2020 17: 15 New
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                Well, that’s the classics, insults.
                1. You still see the map. Where are the Mongolian steppes, and where are the Russian forests and what is between them. And how many are large. And how much grain per day they were supposed to, and where they got it, and on what and how they delivered it. It is only Grain for horses. But there are also horseshoes for them. And also charcoal. Because you know that nomads used dung for heating. And with the help of his horseshoe does not fit. And without horseshoes, it is only among science fiction historians that the equestrian masses of warriors conquer the universe.
                2. I have a lot of historical fiction on this subject.
                3. Again, perhaps find, maybe not. Asked a specific question. If you don’t know, say so. As historians say, I don’t know.
                4. Well, I'm not a specialist yet, this is when you ask about fodder supply, about horseshoes, and so on.
                5.Vy all the same try to explain why Napoleon's horses are dying and your "supermen" do not die without fodder. It would be very useful to the gypsies.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  April 29 2020 18: 29 New
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                  Quote: Vlad-world
                  Well, that’s the classics, insults.

                  Where? smile
                  You still read at least Khrapachevsky - everything is described in detail with reference to sources - how the Mongol armies were planned and carried out. How intelligence determined wintering places, how intermediate bases were organized, routes for following the tumens to the gathering place were planned, time was calculated, etc. I repeat, all with links to sources that you can check if you wish. Consider this my academic reference, such arguments are allowed in scientific discussions.
                  You can read here. https://ekniga.org/reader/222878/
                  If there is a special desire to understand the primary sources - I recommend Yuan-shi and the Secret Tale.
                  Quote: Vlad-world
                  I have a lot of historical fiction on this subject.

                  What do you call fiction? Can you see the list of your literature?
                  Quote: Vlad-world
                  Asked a specific question

                  Which one? What did they feed during the invasion? I have explained. The cows and village horses themselves were eaten, and the horses were given their food.
                  How did you get there? Details - at Khrapachevsky, in short - thanks to well-established intelligence and effective work of the headquarters.
                  Quote: Vlad-world
                  why do Napoleon's horses die

                  Napoleon had more of them - times.
                  Digging at Napoleon was longer in time - two.
                  The territory in which he operated was much less - three.
                  In summer, peasant bins are empty - four.
                  Nationwide resistance that prevented foraging - five.
                  Active resistance of the Russian army - six.
                  Enough? Could you think about it? Or didn’t you try?
                  And I draw your attention to the fact that before Napoleon's invasion of Russia began, his horses did not die. Why did the Mongols in their territory, when they concentrated their forces for their invasion, should have? Can you explain?
                  1. Vlad world
                    Vlad world April 29 2020 21: 42 New
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                    Thanks. Laughing with the "sources". Your "legend" was discovered in the Middle East somewhere in the 19th century or at the end of 18. I forgot already. The question is why there. And not as it should be in Mongolia. By the way, the Mongols' writing appeared when --- already in the 20th century.
                    I don’t read Chinese historical tales at all. After Morozov. He convincingly showed (sitting alone) that the entire written history of China is a European tracing-paper with local flavor. The man was not interested - he did not receive grants from the CCP. There was no interested bosses over him yet.
                    1. Intelligence as reported by telephone or paper. If in writing, then in what language. And where at least a few survived. From the Roman Empire and then survived. And she will be older.
                    2. The map means did not look.
                    3 Before the attack, Napoleon had enough fodder and the logistics of its delivery were short. After alas, logistics was stretched. Delivery with consumption could not cope. The calculation of the robbery of the local did not materialize. Horses began to fall from starvation, plus extremely low veterinary care. And on the rise. - Enough.
                    5. The answer to the main question will be or will go aside.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      April 30 2020 11: 42 New
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                      Quote: Vlad-world
                      The answer to the main question will be or will go aside.

                      Generally bored with you.
                      You yourself did not give an answer to any of the questions I asked, but you require your answers.
                      Let's remember, I asked:
                      Which of the doctors and candidates "in history" could not answer your questions and what were these questions?
                      What books about the Mongol invasion and whose authorship did you read?
                      What do you know about the ethnonym "Tatars"?
                      Where did you see the insults against you?
                      Well, the last question: why did the Mongol armies have to incur horse losses when moving along the territory under their control in the steppe?
                      And now another question has arisen.
                      Quote: Vlad-world
                      The answer to the main question will be or will go aside.

                      What is the main question for you? Sound it like an adult - clearly and directly. And if you answer my questions - I will answer your main one.
                      By the way, about the secret story - it is written in the Middle Mongolian language. Especially for you I will explain. Middle Mongolian is such a special language, the speakers of which were exclusively the Mongols, who lived in the XIII - XIV centuries. In the XIX or, even more so, in the XVIII centuries. this language had not been used for a long time, no one owned it and it was impossible to write something on it, just as it was impossible to rewrite the Russian chronicles without it being immediately noticeable to the specialist.
                      1. Vlad world
                        Vlad world April 30 2020 13: 29 New
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                        Yes. There is a group of people in England who support flat land. Earth flat bayat and point.
                        And we have fans of "m-z". Basta also won. Adequate people begin to think and understand what and how.
                        Especially for you, the legend was written in Arabic when it was offered in the Middle East.
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        April 30 2020 14: 33 New
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                        Quote: Vlad-world
                        Adequate people begin to think and understand what and how.

                        Adequate - yes.
                        And the rest begin, without thinking and not understanding, to express their opinion on issues in which they do not understand anything, based solely on the personal experience of a person of the 1812st century, and drawing completely inappropriate analogies. For example, since XNUMX.
                        Imagine that you are a judge in court. And before you are two sides, and you need to make a decision. One side presents documents, evidence confirming a controversial event (for example, a fact of a money loan), the second says that the documents are fake, witnesses were bought, and there was no event, because it could not be by logic and common sense. What decision will you make?
                        The legend is written in Mongolian with Chinese characters. Purchased by the Russians from the Chinese (from some Chinese library) in the XNUMXth century. the authenticity of the document is confirmed.
                      3. Vlad world
                        Vlad world April 30 2020 21: 47 New
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                        Yes, I didn’t laugh, but began to laugh.
                        - In Mongolian with Chinese characters-- it's just tin. Steeper than in Sumerian cuneiform writing. You think there before you write.
                        For everyone - the message of the pope (drove Carpini) and the French king (drove Rubviks) were translated into 1-Russian, 2-Arabic, 3-Tatar. All Chinese characters were not like the Mongol.
                        But - the Earth is flat and fast.
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        April 30 2020 23: 52 New
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                        But I'm not funny. It’s sad. In general, I always grieve when I encounter ignorance. And yours, elevated to the absolute, which you, in addition, are also proud of, in general makes me disheartened. But, by the way, the Mongols corresponded with European kings with their hieroglyphs (their letters were preserved and well dated), a label issued to the Russian Metropolitan Khan of the Golden Horde remained. It is written in Mongolian and with hieroglyphs. But you don’t know anything about it, therefore everything is a fake.
                        You did not answer any of my questions, did not refute a single my thesis, you were unable to, except by unsubstantiated statements, cast doubt on any of the sources to which I refer, just chatting in vain and that's all.
                        You know, sometimes it seems to me that people like you belong to some other kind of human-like creatures. Probably, the circle of my communication is affecting, where people can read and understand what they read close to what the author of the text had in mind, where people can perceive and learn new information for themselves, where they do not hesitate to learn, even when they have reached a considerable age and have rich life experience.
                        You have, during our communication, I must say, greatly improved my self-esteem. I will not say that before that she was very underestimated, but in the conversation with you I felt like just a giant of thought. I understand that this is against your background, but still nice, thank you.
                        Nevertheless, think about starting to study any questions before forming opinions about them. Such a habit can really be useful in life and relieve you, though not by much, of the risk of becoming a laughing stock and becoming a clown in the society of people who are at least intellectually developed.
                        I say goodbye to Sim, I think my interest in your person is currently completely exhausted. I will not say that communication with you was so pleasant, but interesting, in terms of knowing the limits of human ignorance - for sure.
                        Good luck to you. Read books. smile hi
                      5. Vlad world
                        Vlad world 1 May 2020 17: 45 New
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                        Well, intellectually gifted, you are our representative of the Order of the Flat Land or fans of Ms, which is basically the same thing. As usual, such people don’t answer certain questions, but constantly go away from the issue under discussion, towards insults. The breed is like that. Not you first, not you last.
                        1. If you post an article then answer the questions with Numbers and Exact explanations. With the use of "Razor" so that there are no questions for your answers and incrementally. You are our guru.
                        2. The answer to the question is no and never will be.
              2. Vlad world
                Vlad world April 30 2020 14: 33 New
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                Even after. If you passed the test according to the lawyer, then you must know - upper lower and middle - this applies to the German language of the Middle Ages.
                . In the historical museum "Historical Saturdays" took place there and had to ask, well, in some places.
              3. Trilobite Master
                April 30 2020 14: 34 New
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                Type the word "Middle Mongolian" into a search engine.
  • Vladimir SHajkin
    Vladimir SHajkin April 28 2020 04: 55 New
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    Thank you for the wonderful story about the "savages" from the East, your own weakness and inability, and are still trying to pass off others for breaking the "rules".
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  • Procyon lotor
    Procyon lotor April 28 2020 10: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: Herrr
    From the text of the article:
    Genghis Khan's military and political genius managed to direct the penetration of Chinese culture into the Mongolian environment along a somewhat peculiar path, but as a result this penetration was significantly accelerated and in the end was the very cementing force that managed to unite and subjugate the vast territory from the Pacific Ocean to the Danube and unite Carpathians.
    This statement is a pure attraction of historical facts to Wishlist. The conquest of China by the Mongols almost coincided with the invasion of these to Russia. They simply did not have time to "absorb" the Chinese culture for the subsequent use of the latter in the confrontation with the Russian princes.

    Statement that the conquest of China by the Mongols coincided with the invasion of these in Russia, there is a pure attraction of historical facts to Wishlist. In fact, the first Mongol invasion of the Western Xia state began long before the campaign in Russia, and by 1227 all of northern China was completely conquered. The Mongol invasion of Russia began in 1237. So that the Mongols had enough time on the "absorption" of Chinese culture for the subsequent use of the latter in the confrontation with the Russian princes.
    1. Vlad world
      Vlad world 2 May 2020 23: 39 New
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      Oops missed.
      And in the "absorption" of Chinese culture, tea is included or not. Like part of their culture.
      And yet, like the Chinese advisers everywhere were the Mongols, so these advisers drank tea or whatever.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 April 28 2020 13: 01 New
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    He laughed at the "backwardness" of Europe in comparison with the "Mongol-Chinese military-industrial complex." No, I certainly am not God knows what a high opinion of European "barbarian" kingdoms on the ruins of the Western Roman Empire. But rationality should not leave the author, even if, in his impetuosity, he pulls the blanket with a bang on the "great imperial people" of the steppe nomads under the rule of the "genius Temujin". According to the author, it turns out that Byzantium (with its art of siege technology, and even with Greek fire) did not exist in nature, or neither the Russians nor the Latins knew it, did not contact, never fought. Where, then, did the "young" by historical standards of the Order of the Swordsmen, on the outskirts of the papal world, have a siege technique? - The author himself writes about the fall of St. George's. Where did the siege equipment of the times of the Crusades go? So far, I see another interference of the "owl-history" on the well-worn "globe" of the Mongol-Tatar yoke.
  • Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp April 28 2020 22: 00 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    "The secret legend of the Mongols", for example, was written by a person who was clearly a witness to many of the events described by him and the compilation of this creation dates back to 1240.

    Thank you Trilobite Master, seriously. I reread this work from your submission already four times in a row.
    Very interesting. But on reading it seems that this "trip report" was written according to the principle of how I spent the summer.
    1. The mass of knowingly false information about all kinds of one-armed, one-legged, dog-headed peoples.
    2. They sent his way to scout, and in response - I don’t remember traveling somewhere, they passed by some sea, but I did not ask what it was called.
    3. According to witnesses who can confirm his presence in the headquarters of Khan Kuyuk, bad luck also happened. Prince Yaroslav died, and the Russian clergyman Durbalai was not found.
    4. Ambassadors from the Tatars did not bring, otmazyvatsya.
    5. Half of the text of the recommendation of the "sofa commander".
    6. The only true phrase was that on the way back they spent 8 days drinking with the prince, but only because "they were kept at the table by force." And they poured the damned into the mouth. tongue
    1. Trilobite Master
      April 29 2020 12: 38 New
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      Quote: Ua3qhp
      Thank you Trilobite Master, seriously.

      Yes, not at all.
      Only you have confused "The Secret Legend of the Mongols", written by a Mongol, apparently close to Genghis Khan and his heirs, and "History of the Mongols", written by the Catholic monk Karpini. The latter wrote an account of what he saw and heard on his journey. That is what they told him, what he saw - that he wrote down. Moreover, the report was already compiled at home. And that is what you read. The Secret Legend is a completely different source.
      I think that I and you would have got something similar if we were sent to a country that we did not know anything about with the task of learning as much as possible.
      1. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 11 May 2020 17: 47 New
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        Thank you, Mikhail. Yes, this is "History of the Mongols".
        Only to this paragraph I have questions:
        "It is noteworthy that the Russians, having a correct idea of ​​the deployment of the Mongol troops, of their plans to attack Russia immediately after the freeze-up, had absolutely no idea about their numbers and equipment."
        Immediately there is a picture.
        The Mongolian army is waiting for the Voronezh River to freeze for crossing. Long. Waiting at least until mid-November. Accordingly, this is the left bank of the river. Relatively treeless, rugged with ravines. In this place, the width of the river floodplain is about 2 km, and from the side of the main bank there is a cliff about 6-10 m high, only in the area of ​​the modern Chernavsky bridge the bank becomes relatively flat, which provides an approach to the river not only for people, but also for horses. This is about the left bank.
        On the contrary, across the river is the Voronezh castle.
        It's still more interesting here, a very steep steep coast, almost no floodplain. The height of the coast is 50 meters or more. The steepness of the slopes is such that a person does not climb everywhere, but again, in the area of ​​Chernavsky bridge there is a very large ravine, with gentle slopes, along which there is a road up. Above and below this place, crossing is even more difficult. The right bank is even higher and steep, the terrain on the left bank is swampy and overgrown with shrubs with reeds even wider, and a dense forest begins to grow along the banks.
        So, a possible crossing point is the area of ​​the center of the modern city of Voronezh, or rather the area of ​​the Chernavsky bridge.
        Let's say the horde is "small" - one tumen. This is, according to historians, 10 sabers. Accordingly, about 000 horses, a large number of sheep and bulls.
        Bulls - for transportation of goods, sheep - food.
        On the street, October, cold, bonfires burn.
        All this horde mumbles, bleats and laughs (it's about animals). By the way, what are they fed in the process of waiting?
        Will the local governor not be interested in the number of guests arriving from that side? At least standing on the fortress wall (according to the text on the Voronezh river the castle, so that the wall should be). There, without binoculars, 20 kilometers will be visible.
        1. Trilobite Master
          11 May 2020 21: 16 New
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          I don’t think that the Mongols stood directly under the walls of the castle, no matter what it was. Anyway, it would be strange to assume that Batu was holding all his troops in a fist in a single compact space. The Mongols professed the principle of Napoleon - to move apart, to fight together. I think that, waiting for a signal to start the invasion, the Mongols dispersed over a space of several tens - up to hundreds or more - kilometers wide. Therefore, the battle with the Ryazan princes looks ambiguous, most likely the Ryazan squad dealt with a small detachment (within the framework of the Batu general army) and reinforcements that had already approached during the battle.
          And the invasion itself took place, as was the case with the Mongols, on a wide front, tens (sometimes hundreds) of kilometers, the crossing was carried out in a dozen different places, which, of course, were perfectly known to the Mongols. The headquarters, convoy, and other rear institutions, were naturally guarded strictly and even at distant approaches.
          If the Mongols were crowded all at once on the same spot, and then all at once in one place would have rushed to the crossing - yes, they could have been counted and considered in detail, and even detained, and if there were favorable environmental conditions, even stopped. But this, of course, was not, they did not give such a chance to anyone. They scurried along the coast back and forth in small detachments, and then, on a signal, abruptly rushed forward with a wide front with a hoot and a whistle. Ahead is intelligence, followed by corral squads and foragers, then the main forces, then a khan with nukers and rear. The flanks were ahead of the center, the elbow connection was constantly maintained ...
          Something like that. smile
  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 April 30 2020 18: 40 New
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    Without false modesty, but came to exactly the same conclusions based on more widely known and accessible sources. And he also noted the complete failure of the strategic intelligence of the Vladimir Principality. The notes of Julian only confirmed the conclusions. Prince Yuri simply did not know with whom to deal.
  • Ua3qhp
    Ua3qhp 12 May 2020 13: 27 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    I think that, waiting for a signal to start the invasion, the Mongols dispersed over a space of several tens - up to hundreds or more - kilometers wide.

    According to the geography of the area in Voronezh, actions on a wide front are not obtained. A strongly rugged ravine-girder relief limits horizontal maneuver, and therefore everyone has to accumulate in a relatively narrow area. Which is clearly visible from the opposite shore. Visually from the fortress, the left bank can be seen during the day for almost 20-30 km, at night, in October, bonfires will be seen even further. Moreover, there are thousands of bonfires.
  • Seal
    Seal 12 June 2020 20: 43 New
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    Oh god again am
    The article mentions the author:
    Su Dong-po, or Su Shi; Sun Tzu and Julian of Hungary. A simple question - which of the mentioned characters is known for writing?
    So, in 1235, at the general kurultai of the leaders of the Mongol empire, a decision was made to carry out a campaign westward - to Europe, with the aim of expanding the Juchi ulus.
    Did they find the minutes of the meeting of the general khan's kurultai of the "Mongol Empire" ??? And what does it say about burning Ryazan?
    By the way, is the list of participants in the "general kurultai of the leaders of the Mongol empire" posted somewhere?
    What about the agenda?
    Lord, how did the admirers get it ... both those for whom the icon for prayers is "Great Tataria", and those for whom the icon for prayers is "Great Mongolia".
    Well, then you can’t get over your fantasies in any way, huh?