Military Review

ZIL-135: visiting card of the Soviet high-tech

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ZIL-135: visiting card of the Soviet high-tech

Photo, allowing to evaluate the dimensions of ZIL-135. Source: autowp.ru


Center for Automotive Intelligence


The creation of special design bureaus or design bureaus at automobile plants of the Soviet Union became a requirement of the Ministry of Defense. The bureau initiated the development of new all-wheel drive military equipment, which the army was sorely lacking. In particular, at the Minsk Automobile Plant, the secret SKB-1 was engaged in heavy vehicles of the MAZ-535/537 family, which were subsequently relocated to Kurgan, freeing up capacity under the legendary MAZ-543. At the ZIS (until 1956, the ZIL was named after Stalin) a special bureau for military development was formed on July 7, 1954. The reason for this was the resolution of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 1258-563 of 25.06.1954, regulating the creation of a special bureau at all automobile and tractor plants for the design of military equipment. It was this decision that gave rise to the development of unique projects in the field of military automotive industry.

The Soviet Union was, if not the first in the world, then at least one of the top three for 40-50 years. The technological breakthrough made by the engineers of various design bureaus is difficult to overestimate. Since the late forties, the automotive industry has creatively rethought foreign obsolete designs. A vivid example of this is the ZIS-151, which was an unsuccessful tracing-paper from Studebaker. But after only a few years experienced, and later serial machines appeared, which in many respects had no analogues in the world. And the Likhachev plant was at the forefront of these changes.

Even before the opening in 1954, SKB factory workers tested the centralized tire inflation system. Engineers were not the first in the world with this development. In the USA, even during the war, a similar system was mounted on wheeled amphibians of the Marine Corps. Landing ships were delivered to the landing point in the holds of land boats, which, in turn, were located in marine self-propelled barges. Coming out of such a ship near the coast, the amphibian reached the land with the help of propellers and, having relieved the tire pressure to a minimum, rose to the swampy coast. As a rule, the Americans on land did not adjust the pressure in the wheels.


Grachev Vitaly Andreyevich, the famous Soviet automobile designer. Under his leadership at the ZIS, and later ZIL, the serial ZIS-485, ZIS-152V, ZIL-157, a series of ZIL-135 machines and a host of experimental equipment were developed. Source: wikipedia.org

A similar system was developed in the early 50s in the ZIS experimental workshop, but only to equip the ZIS-485 amphibian. When the idea came of installing swap on exclusively land equipment, the engineering headquarters of the plant was divided into two camps. Opponents believed that such a system was too heavy and complicated, and besides, pneumotubes and hoses sticking out could easily be damaged on a forest belt. Nevertheless, in an experimental procedure, the BTR-152 was equipped with pumping (the initiators were the legendary Vitaly Andreevich Grachev and his deputy Georgy Alekseevich Materov) and achieved comparative tests. Yes, not just tests, but in comparison with the T-34! In the winter of 1954, at a tank training ground in Kubinka, in the presence of the head of the GBTU, General Alexei Maximovich Sych (his attentive readers of VO remember on the cycle of articles about testing trophy equipment during the war) BTR-152 on flat tires twice in a row walked around a tank stuck in the snow.


Moscow Plant named after Likhachev. Source: drive2.ru

Of course, such a failure of the famous tracked vehicle was more likely an accident, but, nevertheless, the experiment was indicative. However, this did not convince the management of GBTU of the need to equip the wheel equipment with similar centralized swap systems. Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov saved the situation when he was personally convinced of the patency of such cars and actually forced the ZIS leadership to put the BTR-1954V conveyor with pumping in the fall of 152. You can read more about this fascinating test. in a series of articles about the ZIL-157. After such success, the appointment of Vitaly Andreyevich Grachev as the head and chief designer of the newly created SKB became logical.

Fancy 8x8


Among the main tasks of the Special Design Bureau was the creation of a family of vehicles with an 8x8 wheel formula, performing the functions of an artillery tractor. These were heavier vehicles than the ZIS (ZIL) -157 being developed, which, recall, also belonged to the class of artillery tractors. The first prototype ZIL-135, albeit very distant, is a prototype ZIS-E134, dating from 1955. It was the first four-axle four-wheel drive truck of the Moscow automobile plant, largely unified with the ZIS-151 machine.






ZIL-E134 Layout No. 1. Source: autowp.ru










ZIL-E134. In the last two photos, the testers mounted a snow blade on the car - the traction capabilities of the machine allowed. Source: denisovets.ru

The designer Vitaly Grachev on this instance checked the very possibility of creating such a complex equipment on a domestic aggregate base. And it turned out, I must say, not bad. The chassis was four equally spaced bridges from the BTR-152V, of which the first two were steered. The frame and the cabin were borrowed from the ZIS-151, the wheel inflation system was taken from an armored personnel carrier. The appearance of the car was unusual: a long hood, under which was hidden an in-line six-cylinder 130-horsepower engine ZIS-120VK, and a short cargo platform. A torque converter from an experimental ZIS-155A bus was docked to the motor, and then a 5-speed manual gearbox was mounted. From the gearbox, the drive shaft transmitted torque to the transfer case, then two power take-offs distributed power to the 2nd and 4th, as well as to the 1st and 3rd axles, respectively. Engineers overturned the rear axle, so its drive was organized from the spurious gear of the power take-off.












Footage from the tests of the first four-axis machine of the Moscow Automobile Plant and some knots close-up. Source: otvaga2004.ru

The resulting car in many respects was better than caterpillar equipment on the roads, while the speed, efficiency and, most importantly, the resource of the chassis were much higher. It is interesting that eight soft tires perfectly damped off-road bumps, so semi-elliptic springs with hydraulic shock absorbers practically did not work. This car, although it looked quite unusual for its time, was built according to the classic conventional patterns. However, the avant-garde thinking of the chief designer of SKB Vitaly Grachev led the ZIL engineers in a completely different direction in the future.

Unlike the official stories The Moscow Automobile Plant, now defunct, soaked only with good memories of a talented designer, has another point of view. Yevgeny Kochnev expressed it in the pages of his book Secret Cars of the Soviet Army. In his opinion, Vitaly Grachev, of course, a talented automobile designer, winner of two Stalin Prizes, even developed outdated designs for his time with a large number of programmed flaws. And if you can still agree with the latter provision (the ZIL-135 twin-engine scheme is an example), then the prototypes developed in the Design Bureau were not archaic. Grachev’s original and high-tech design solutions for the most part simply did not find much understanding either in the automotive industry or in the Soviet Army. The main competitor of the Zilovsky SKB was the Minsk Automobile Plant with its SKB-1, headed by Boris Lvovich Shaposhnik, the author of such machines as the MAZ-535 and MAZ-543. By the way, they were to a certain extent borrowed from the Americans. The more solid and massive construction of Minsk cars of a traditional layout turned out to be more reliable than Grachev's four-axis prototypes. For the first time, two SKBs were pushed together by the foreheads during the comparative tests of the MAZ-535 and the ZIL-134 artillery tractor (it is also called ATK-6).


Experienced artillery tractor ZIL-134. If he had been accepted into service at one time, the evolution of Zilov’s all-terrain vehicles would have taken a completely different path. Source: denisovets.ru


ZIL-134. Source: otvaga2004.ru








ZIL-134. Source: trucksplanet.com

Joint tests in 1958 in Bronnitsy, the Moscow prototype lost. The MAZ occupied the niche of heavy artillery tractors, tank and missile carriers for many years. What did the military not like in ZIL-134?

Firstly, the ZIL-E12 experienced V-shaped 134-cylinder carburetor engine was unreliable and often only worked on 10 cylinders. As you know, the Barnaul diesel D-535-A-12, which was a descendant of the tank V-375, was installed on MAZ-2. Why didn’t Vitaly Grachev put the same diesel on his car? There is still no clear explanation for this. Most likely, as an automobile engineer, he understood the limited motor resources of tank diesel. But there was no suitable engine of such power and I had to develop my own version. Moreover, it is carbureted, since there were even greater problems with the development of a diesel engine: they did not know how to do this at ZIL. Naturally, the design turned out to be crude and completely lost to the proven diesel engine from Barnaul. Secondly, the MAZ-535 was larger than its rival (more than 1,5 meters longer), more powerful and had a more robust construction. Although with a comparable carrying capacity of 7 tons, the ZIL-134 in the version of the airfield tractor was almost two tons lighter than the MAZ, and even knew how to swim.






ZIL-E134 Layout No. 2 is a floating prototype in which the wheels are so far evenly distributed along the length of the hull. Source: autowp.ru


It is this machine, a late version of ZIL-E134 (model No. 2), that can be considered the real predecessor of the serial ZIL-135, which is still in operation. Source: the book "Overcoming the road: the development of SKB ZIL"

When Vitaly Grachev and his Special Design Bureau lost the competition of the Ministry of Defense, it was decided in the class of four-axle trucks to switch to the design of floating vehicles. By the way, the first ZIL-135, which appeared in 1958, was an amphibian with a very characteristic appearance. It was on this machine that a very rare layout solution with close wheels of the 2nd and 3rd pair appeared, which later became the hallmark of the Zilovsky missile carrier and the Uragan rocket launcher. But for the first time it was tested on late prototypes of ZIL-E134 No. 2 back in 1956.

This car had an open platform and a relatively short hood, a sealed body adapted for swimming, and a lack of suspension: there was hope for elastic wheels of reduced pressure. After the engineers did not like how the machine overcomes ditches and trenches, it was decided to lengthen the wheelbase. To do this, the front and rear bridges were bred further from the center, and the 2nd and 3rd bridge were left in their places. The problem of maneuverability was solved in a unique way - with steered wheels on the front and rear axles. The rear wheels rotated in antiphase front. Naturally, this seriously complicated the design of the steering, but when compared with the Minsk four-axle trucks, it increased maneuverability and reduced the number of ruts when turning on soft soils and snow. As a result, it was this technical solution that became decisive in choosing the layout of future 135 series machines.

To be continued ...
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  1. ximkim
    ximkim April 21 2020 18: 17 New
    11
    All the bitterness of the created multi-wheeled vehicles is that they saw only military mission in them. Therefore, it was only, but not.
    1. Uruguay
      Uruguay April 21 2020 18: 50 New
      14
      Quote: ximkim
      All the bitterness of the created multi-wheeled vehicles is that they saw only military mission in them.

      Well, yes, we were constantly at war and now the same thing ..
      But I will also stand up for our auto industry in the USSR, our territories are huge and have a sharply continental climate .. What kind of comfortable cars are there, the main thing is simplicity and cross-country ability .. As they joked in the west, “What can the Russians not come up with, just not to build good roads .. Well, well , let them try to build in Siberia ..
      It’s a pity that they don’t let out anymore, and mainly the auto industry on western details .. Like Russia would not regret it in the future ..
      Thanks for the article to the author !!! Oh, there were times of creation ..
      1. KVIRTU
        KVIRTU April 22 2020 00: 19 New
        0
        So let them see. This is about roads not to build.
        1. KVIRTU
          KVIRTU April 22 2020 00: 31 New
          +1
          https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2020-04/1587504261_1587504035_screenshot_20200422-001527.png
          1. Azis
            Azis April 22 2020 21: 14 New
            +2
            Did you remind the map that Russia is not alone in such conditions?
      2. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo April 27 2020 15: 48 New
        0
        And yet, that was a mistake.
        The capitalists were ready to peer into the client, if only to buy their goods. And our un-spoiled person when meeting with these marketing gadgets stupidly rode the roof. So I got to the point that the country merged.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 21 2020 19: 21 New
      +9
      Thanks to the Author (Eugene) for an interesting series of articles!
      1. Alien From
        Alien From April 21 2020 21: 19 New
        +7
        I join in gratitude) the author seriously approaches this series of articles!
    3. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 21 2020 20: 02 New
      +8
      Quote: ximkim
      All the bitterness of the created multi-wheeled vehicles is that they saw only military mission in them. Therefore, it was only, but not.

      And my opinion is that it’s not even bitterness, but pain and misfortune for the country, that the capitalists simply torn to pieces the firstborn of the Soviet automobile industry.
      1. veritas
        veritas April 21 2020 20: 49 New
        11
        Quote: tihonmarine
        And my opinion is that it’s not even bitterness, but pain and misfortune for the country, that the capitalists simply torn to pieces the firstborn of the Soviet automobile industry.

        I would say leaked the Soviet automotive industry. The largest factories are now half owned by foreign capital and all engineering innovations are also now from the west. But if for our machines this is an innovation, then for their machines this is already the last century.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine April 22 2020 08: 52 New
          +4
          Quote: veritas
          The largest factories are now half owned by foreign capital and all engineering innovations are also now from the west.

          True to all 100, then capitalism.
    4. Peter is not the first
      Peter is not the first April 21 2020 20: 39 New
      +1
      In addition to the military, I met MAZs in ATK at the builders of oil pipelines. The truth is no longer in working condition. At the internship, I took them apart for parts and scrap. Such was the fate of the handsome men at the time of the collapse of the USSR.
    5. antivirus
      antivirus April 21 2020 21: 31 New
      +1
      but now they put a lot of benches in the parks.
      And landscape design took a long step forward, scattering stones was an art
    6. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek April 23 2020 07: 34 New
      0
      On YouTube there is a video with KAMAZ 6x6 with the 2nd axis in the center. What am I a variation on the theme of ZIL. The car is serial. But he is doing some sort of court atelier for the Ministry of Emergencies and other interested parties. The military is not visible.
  2. rocket757
    rocket757 April 21 2020 18: 29 New
    +6
    Pride and bitterness, how much we could and how much we lost.
    1. pv1005
      pv1005 April 21 2020 20: 41 New
      +7
      Quote: rocket757
      Pride and bitterness, how much we could and how much we lost.

      In words, you yourself know who, we only lost galoshostroenie.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 April 21 2020 20: 49 New
        +6
        Someone in the brains of galoshes is something wrong.
        And I say that very comfortable shoes for the village and cottages. And now I use .... the style began to be made different, of course, but in fact, the same galoshes!
        I like it, very comfortable and practical.
        1. pv1005
          pv1005 April 21 2020 20: 58 New
          +5
          So I'm not saying that galoshes are bad, just someone claims from a high rostrum that in the USSR only galoshes were able to do.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 April 21 2020 21: 05 New
            +8
            They can say anything, but it will not look smart at all. It doesn’t matter what platform the speaker will be on, it won’t look smarter.
            They made galoshes, made rockets, everything they had to do ... almost everything, to be objective.
            1. pv1005
              pv1005 April 21 2020 21: 16 New
              +4
              Quote: rocket757
              They can say anything, but it will not look smart at all. It doesn’t matter what platform the speaker will be on, it won’t look smarter.
              They made galoshes, made rockets, everything they had to do ... almost everything, to be objective.

              100500 drinks
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 April 21 2020 21: 20 New
                +3
                Oh, you have a personal admirer. Who stepped on your favorite corn?
  3. Amateur
    Amateur April 21 2020 18: 31 New
    +3
    Great people. Great country. Where is ZIL now?
    But let's not talk about sad things.
    An old Soviet anecdote: "What kind of all-terrain vehicles the Russians do not come up with !!!. Just don't build roads! drinks
    1. Evgeny Fedorov
      April 21 2020 18: 38 New
      23
      Where is ZIL now? Not only is he not there, but his place is not taken. In fact, only KamAZ is currently engaged in major developments for military motorists. His "Remdizel" is now almost a monopoly - UralAZ is not particularly concerned with business. But KamAZ cannot even make a cab itself (it uses Mercedes-Benz developments), not to mention the engines (Chinese, at best). As ZIL once developed turnkey trucks for KamAZ, since that time nothing new has been done in Naberezhnye Chelny. Now even the huge KamAZ-Artik cannot be assembled by themselves - MSTU is attracted. In general, the future of the military automotive industry is still vague here, I hope, unlike other military disciplines.
      1. Amateur
        Amateur April 21 2020 18: 52 New
        +2
        Where is ZIL now? He is not only not there,
        My daughter lives near Avtozavodskaya. So I am in the know. An elite residential complex is planned there.
        1. Evgeny Fedorov
          April 21 2020 18: 55 New
          +5
          This is me rhetorically)) Before you put an elite residential complex there, you need to take out the whole soil five meters deep. It is dirty during the work of the plant terribly.
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine April 21 2020 20: 08 New
            +1
            Quote: Evgeny Fedorov
            Before you put an elite residential complex there, you need to take out the whole soil five meters deep.

            5 meters is suitable for the elite, and for the people they will raise one meter and that's enough.
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 April 21 2020 22: 00 New
            -3
            Quote: Evgeny Fedorov
            Before you put an elite residential complex there, you need to take out the whole soil five meters deep.

            And on the contrary, I would pour more poison there.
          3. sektant777
            sektant777 5 July 2020 07: 02 New
            0
            Almost everything has been built there.
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine April 21 2020 20: 06 New
          -2
          Quote: Amateur
          An elite residential complex is planned there.

          In the meantime, there is a fight between watchdogs who will receive a tender for development. Why factories, housing for the elite, markets, super taverns. And the people and the "Khrushchev" grandfathers are missing.
      2. Uruguay
        Uruguay April 21 2020 18: 53 New
        +4
        Quote: Evgeny Fedorov
        Where is ZIL now? He is not only not there, but his place is not taken. In fact, now only KamAZ is engaged in large developments for military motorists.

        Well, the Urals .. And ZIL was a good car, nevertheless, they destroyed everything and we will regret it in the future hi
      3. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa April 21 2020 22: 04 New
        +4
        But KamAZ cannot even make a cab itself (it uses Mercedes developments), not to mention engines (Chinese, at best).


        You would not write nonsense. The old KAMAZ cab and now in mass production, its own KAMAZ cab was invented together with a Korean company, but it turned out to be more profitable to buy Aktros from Mercedes, with which there is a joint project for the assembly of trucks.

        About the Chinese motor is generally absurd.
        KAMAZ-740 what do you think has already been discontinued from production?
        No, on all-terrain vehicles and on dump trucks it is the main motor, in different versions.

        The fact that some of the road cars come with the Cummins does not mean anything, their engines are still being produced, some models are equipped only with KAMAZ "eights", the new inline-six which KAMAZ makes together with Liebherr will be in seven to eight years at most, no more.

        As ZIL once developed turnkey trucks for KamAZ, since that time nothing new has been done in Naberezhnye Chelny.


        Zil-175 and KAMAZ 6460, by the way, have already been discontinued by old age.



        ZiL has an atmospheric diesel engine, 180 hp, a saddle load of 8 tons, a gearbox of 5 gears, if it drags out a 13-ton semi-trailer, well done that it did not break.

        KAMAZ has a 400 hp turbodiesel, Euro-4 16 gears per gearbox, a saddle load of 17 tons, a full mass train on export markets where there are no axle restrictions, it is defined as 62 tons.

        Wow, "did nothing"!
        1. Evgeny Fedorov
          April 22 2020 10: 45 New
          10
          Compare commercial Zil-175 and KAMAZ 6460? The first has a development date of 1969. KamAZ-6460 was launched into production in 2003. Over 34 years, tremendous progress can not be said. And the cabin, I recall, is still in production. Here, by the way, is one of the latest modifications of the KamAZ junior line.

          KAMAZ-53605 with 285 hp Cummins diesel engine
          Obviously, numerous modifications of the 740 engine turned out to be so “successful” that we buy licenses from the Chinese and Germans. Cheap and technologically advanced? This is unconditional. Here is the new Remdizel-M 2019.

          Are there any layout differences from 4310?

          The difference between these machines is over 40 years old! And the point is not even in age, but in the fact that KamAZ is now not capable of independently developing anything from scratch. What will the army buy from this monopolist? Here is another example.

          Tornado K-53958 dated 2019. Motor - KAMAZ 910.20, 600 hp, joint development with Liebherr, "automatic" checkpoint Chinese or licensed Allison, even an imported winch. Three years ago, similar Tornadoes had a Steyr handout, and the Madara bridges (Bulgaria) and even lighting equipment were from Italy. Now, perhaps, the situation has changed with respect to these units, but it's hard to believe.
          Is that what I’m leading to? In addition, in the pursuit of new technologies, manufacturers such as Mercedes, Renault, etc. were launched in Russia. Of course, they helped with the development of civilian technology and in many ways brought it closer to world standards, but it seems that with them our automotive engineers can only adapt imported technologies to Russian conditions.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa April 22 2020 11: 37 New
            +5
            KAMAZ-53605 with 285 hp Cummins diesel engine
            Obviously, numerous modifications of the 740 engine turned out to be so "successful" that we buy licenses from the Chinese and Germans.


            For a long time already 300, you are behind the times.

            The difference between these machines is over 40 years old!


            So they differ from each other ALL. Do you understand this? These are different cars, they have different engines, even for mixture formation, the second gearbox has twice as many gears, other axles, another transfer case, other tires, the civil modification has wheel locks. The cabin is armored, yes. Did you notice this?
            And even in an unarmored cockpit there are a lot of all sorts of thought-out tiap holders for flasks and machine guns, a sunroof for the shooter, etc.
            As a result - completely different performance characteristics.

            These are different trucks combined with the cab frame (not the cab itself) and the layout of the eight-cylinder engine (only the layout, even the kinematics are different.)

            Here's another comment.



            Also ZIL?

            Tornado K-53958 dated 2019. Motor - KAMAZ 910.20, 600 hp, joint development with Liebherr, "automatic" checkpoint Chinese or licensed Allison, even an imported winch.


            It was necessary as Grachev to slap two carburetor ZIL-375s in pairs next to each other, and ride them for 50 years. So what? Borrowing technology - GOOD.
            Let me remind you that in the USSR the same engines were on the conveyor for decades. Stalin's wishlist for a diesel engine for a medium-duty truck since the days of "Koju" in metal was implemented at YaMZ only in the 2010s. Who are you using as an example?
            In 1960, the ZIL assembled the 157th model, in 1990 - its own and 131 with a gas engine. Do not want to compare with the western level of 1991? And with the Japanese?

            Three years ago, the likes of Tornado had a Steyr razdatka, and the bridges of Madara (Bulgaria) and even lighting equipment were from Italy.


            I can’t say for lighting equipment, but instead of Steyr they put 6522 on production cars, and Madarovsky bridges with a long stocking and final drives are localized and completely produced at KAMAZ.

            but it seems that with them our automotive engineers are now only able to adapt imported technologies to Russian conditions.


            Now it is quite difficult to come up with something new. By the way, the ZIL-135 was also inspirated by a Western vehicle - the Terrapin amphibious vehicle, minus the fact that it had a normal steering one. But the onboard circuit is from there.

            On the other hand, the result is important. KAMAZ, URAL and BAZ in total cover the needs of aircraft for trucks by 90% at least. The rest is covered by the MZKT.

            We do not have a problem with heavy-duty wheeled vehicles for the aircraft.
            There is a problem of a low technological level for a citizen, but they are working on it even slowly and crookedly.

            And yes, finally, the ZiL niche in the national economy is already closed, if that.
            NEXT lawn and KAMAZ 43253 and 4308.
            More MAZs 4371 and 4380.
            1. Evgeny Fedorov
              April 22 2020 12: 03 New
              +1
              Now it’s quite difficult to come up with something new.

              With this approach, of course, we will use the KamAZ-20 platform in the army for another 30-4310 years. We change bridges, checkpoints and so on according to the list. Do not forget the frame with springs. If you're talking about the Mustang-M, then it's not armored. Take a closer look.
              And even in an unarmored cockpit there are a lot of all sorts of thought-out tiap holders for flasks and machine guns, a sunroof for the shooter, etc.

              These, of course, are major improvements. Only KamAZ, why is it needed here at all? Such trifles can be made in any repair shop.
              These are different trucks connected by the cab frame (not the cab itself)

              It seems that such cabins for the army will spank at the factory until the stamps are erased. Why worry, because
              KAMAZ, URAL and BAZ in total cover the needs of aircraft for trucks by 90% at least.
              The Urals, by the way, has a much smaller share than the KamAZ, which lives on the state budget. In the USSR, they at least created the appearance of competition for defense orders. Now there is not even visibility.

              Here is a typical example. UAE buys our armor. Guess which wheeled platform?
              It is to your
              We do not have a problem with heavy-duty wheeled vehicles for the aircraft.

              And the last one. For almost thirty years of independence, our defense industry has not been able to find a replacement for the heavy MZKT chassis. We entrusted this matter to KamAZ ... When will Platform-0 be put into production there?
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa April 22 2020 12: 45 New
                +3
                With this approach, of course, we will use the KamAZ-20 platform in the army for another 30-4310 years. We change bridges, checkpoints and so on according to the list. Do not forget the frame with springs. If you're talking about the Mustang-M, then it's not armored. Take a closer look.


                Mustangs have armored cabs with hidden armor, they are made on Remdiesel, ordinary army vehicles are not from Remdiesel, but from the KAMAZ conveyor

                These, of course, are major improvements. Only KamAZ, why is it needed here at all? Such trifles can be made in any repair shop.


                Well, in the USSR they were NOT MADE for all the post-war years.

                It seems that such cabins for the army will spank at the factory until the stamps are erased.


                No, last year they launched a line of Aktros cabins of domestic assembly, not imported ones. Now they will slowly begin to reduce the number of old cabs to zero. The problem here is that for the army the old cabins are better, and it can stand in a pose. And for the sake of her alone to maintain cabin production is not profitable.
                In any case, the share of new cabs will grow, there is already a line of models with KAMAZ engines and units, but with a Mercedes, which is structurally irreducible to Mercedes and this is only the beginning.

                The Urals, by the way, has a much smaller share than the KamAZ, which lives on the state budget.


                KAMAZ does not live for the state budget, it works mainly for profit. Just owned by the state.
                And URAL belongs to Oleg Deripaska.
                So from whom should the state buy equipment - from itself or from Oleg Deripaska?
                By the way, URAL is to blame for its problems. Technically, they can make cars that can compete with KAMAZ in the civilian segment, but they don't. Especially in the part of automobile chassis and road equipment, where their developments "went into fornication."

                Here is a typical example. UAE buys our armor. Guess which wheeled platform?


                Well, here are corporate problems - KAMAZ sold its chassis through Rostec as the base for the Shell. And it is unsuccessful for this installation.
                The chassis for the Carapace, as well as for the 152 mm howitzers, had to be given to the BAZ.
                Maybe they will change their minds yet.
                1. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek April 23 2020 07: 38 New
                  +1
                  For the updated Shell, they showed a Typhoon 8x8 chassis with an armored cab. Reminds MAN (on which the Shell was placed in the UAE)
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    timokhin-aa April 27 2020 17: 00 New
                    0
                    Let something else be shown under the wheeled self-propelled gun. In my opinion, there is a kink with the fact that everything is surrendered to KAMAZ, although KAMAZ is simply not ready to replace either the BAZ or the MZKT on a heavy chassis.

                    In the correct version of the machine under the Shell, a 152-mm howitzer and another heavy load should have been given to the BAZ.
                    1. Zaurbek
                      Zaurbek April 27 2020 17: 20 New
                      0
                      There are excesses and with the system itself .... why are they confused with the tower? The main competitors focus on range and accuracy and do not bother with full automation. Hence the weight ....
            2. Evgeny Fedorov
              April 22 2020 12: 16 New
              0
              And more.
              That could be our illustrious racing KamAZ.

              And this is Mercedes Zetros, from which the cabin was borrowed. The Bundeswehr, by the way ...

              I don’t know about you, but I would be ashamed of that.
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa April 22 2020 12: 46 New
                +4
                For what a shame? For the fact that KAMAZ has been beating Europeans in the tail and in the mane for decades? The bonneted cab came into focus when the weight distribution capabilities offered by the traditional cab arrangement reached the limit.
                There, a war over a gram of weight has long been going on.

                But in the end, they decided differently.
                I do not see a problem in this either.
                1. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek April 23 2020 08: 54 New
                  +2
                  In Dakar, regulations change every couple of years. That's why they come up with different layouts. And the same hat for motors. At the last Dakar, Chinese diesel was tested on one KamAZ.
                2. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek April 27 2020 17: 22 New
                  0
                  Maybe the fact that the factory teams are no longer freight .... and the funding is different?
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    timokhin-aa April 27 2020 19: 55 New
                    0
                    The teams there are purely formally non-factory ones - and just because they have to admit otherwise that manufacturers merged the Russians.
            3. Narak-zempo
              Narak-zempo April 27 2020 15: 59 New
              0
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Technology borrowing - GOOD

              Borrowing is just borrowing. The benefit is the creation of technologies that everyone wants to borrow.
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa April 27 2020 16: 57 New
                0
                If you choose between "we cannot create and we borrow" and "we cannot create and we do not borrow", then the choice is obvious.
          2. AK1972
            AK1972 April 22 2020 16: 09 New
            +1
            The spars for the first batch of "Tornado" were bent and cooked at my plant, on "Platform 0" there was no long bending machine and the welding technology was not worked out, now I do not know they are doing it themselves or they have placed an order somewhere else.
          3. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek April 23 2020 07: 43 New
            +1
            Maybe you need to go this way first? What would then sculpt ?! And on the other hand, What can you come up with new in trucks now? Everything is in the open (even the civilian market): Diesel, Bridges, Boxes. Take and configure .. Kamaz, by the way, thanks to the Typhoons, began to offer Kamaz with a completely independent suspension to the civilian market. (Save about 2-2,5tn)
      4. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek April 23 2020 07: 36 New
        +1
        And KAMAZ and URAL have 4x4 models ..... this is just the ZIL niche. And Models 6x6 and 8x8 are KRAZ's niche. And Trunk cars 6x2 and 6x4 are MAZ's niche.
  4. really
    really April 21 2020 18: 39 New
    +5
    I remember 157 without power steering, with chic patency
    1. Uruguay
      Uruguay April 21 2020 18: 54 New
      +4
      Quote: really
      I remember 157 without power steering, with chic patency

      Tank almost !!! And as simple as a bike
    2. Sandor Clegane
      Sandor Clegane April 21 2020 20: 20 New
      +3
      Quote: really
      I remember 157 without power steering, with chic patency

      as a kid, he barely squeezed the clutch, and braked with two legs .... in the 5th grade)) .... a super car, after which he got into the UAZ - it's like in Maybach now))
      1. really
        really April 21 2020 22: 22 New
        0
        One turning radius is worth laughing
  5. Keeping
    Keeping April 21 2020 18: 58 New
    +4
    Thanks again for the work!
    I am pleased to read!
    I'm not alone, I'm waiting for the continuation!
  6. Svarog
    Svarog April 21 2020 19: 04 New
    0
    The technological breakthrough made by the engineers of various design bureaus can hardly be overestimated. Since the late forties, the automotive industry has creatively rethought foreign obsolete designs.

    It remains only to be proud of Soviet engineers and designers. And so I want to be proud of Russian. But they are not. For 30 years they have not appeared.
  7. Keeping
    Keeping April 21 2020 19: 08 New
    -10
    I understand that the technology is lost and we do not produce anything like that.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog April 21 2020 19: 39 New
      -4
      Quote: Keeping
      I understand that the technology is lost and we do not produce anything like that.

      Now they are already out of date .. we produce, but not quite us .. KamAZ, as an example, is practically not ours anymore and does not work on our technologies.
      1. Keeping
        Keeping April 21 2020 20: 19 New
        -3
        So the dimensions of KamAZ are not so impressive.
      2. Potter
        Potter April 22 2020 08: 35 New
        +6
        The Soviet automobile industry has always been engaged in borrowing. However, like all auto industries of the world.
        It began with the production of AMO (Fiat), then GAZ-A and GAZ-AA (Ford) and AMO-3, then ZIS-5 (autocar). Grachev created the famous GAZ-61, having previously requested from Voroshilov the acquisition of the American Marmont-Herrington, which was tested, the design of which was creatively comprehended and redone. ZIS-151 - a cross between Studebaker and the International. GAZ-63 also took a lot of things from Studer. Post-war representative ZIS-110 - variations on the theme of Packard. Moskvich-401 was generally done by German designers in the design bureau created in Germany by the Soviet military administration. YaAZ-210 is our understanding of the design of MAK-HR-16 with some admixture of Diamond. The ZIS-154 diesel-electric bus is a borrowed American design. The appearance of the ZIS-127 intercity bus is clearly inspired by the American bus design. Then, the 50s and the beginning of the 60s are some independence, but with an eye on the trends in the global automotive industry. Well, then a licensed fiat, which became a VAZ and was borrowed by Simka from AZLK. Zaporozhets, the very first - a complete design borrowing.
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo April 27 2020 16: 07 New
          0
          Along the way, only "Niva" is 100% original development.
          True, there was also a ZIL-118 "Youth", but, contrary to the wishes of workers and potential foreign customers, they decided not to release it.
    2. Potter
      Potter April 22 2020 08: 43 New
      +3
      The technologies of the Soviet automobile industry are hopelessly outdated, this is not yesterday, but the day before yesterday. Huge money must be invested in development, and this moment was missed, moreover, during the times of the USSR. Now the world is moving towards abandoning ICE cars in urban areas, hybrids have been mass-produced for a long time, electric car production is constantly growing, China makes 100000 electric buses a year, almost replacing them with buses in its fleet. And what can our auto industry do? True, electric buses could for Moscow, but they are criticized from all sides, both conceptually and on the side that the world's largest trolleybus network is being destroyed for their sake.
  8. iouris
    iouris April 21 2020 19: 54 New
    +3
    What is characteristic: according to the definition (UNECE) "automobile" is a power-driven vehicle intended for the transport of passengers and goods on public roads. On the roads. Public roads are built to standards.
    In this sense, "Soviet cars" are not cars, strictly speaking. At the same time, I knew one "domestic professor" (dtn) who had been engaged in non-traditional "research" of various aspects of "driving a car on a rough road" all his life. He is still doing this. At the same time, for some reason, there is no standard for "uneven road".
    Thus, those motor vehicles that were developed and tested in Bronnitsy are not cars (from the point of view of the UNECE, of which the Russian Federation is a member).
    1. antivirus
      antivirus April 21 2020 21: 36 New
      0
      those mechanical vehicles that were developed and tested in Bronnitsy are not cars

      --a directions to the Russian Federation --that ... without roads
  9. iouris
    iouris April 21 2020 22: 52 New
    +2
    Quote: ximkim
    All the bitterness of the multi-wheeled machines created is

    In fact, this was only necessary in a country like the USSR, where a car is not a luxury item, but a means of transporting personnel and weapons during a defensive war on its territory under the slogan: "We will not stand the price!"
    The notorious Belgian Adolf Kegress would not have become a famous designer if he hadn’t come to Russia, where he served as the chief engineer of garage No. 1 and the driver of His Imperial Majesty. Its semi-tracked chassis, well known for its German WWII designs, was invented for winter travel from Gatchina to St. Petersburg in the snow.
    The leader of the proletariat, VI Lenin, whose 150th birthday will be celebrated tomorrow, loved to go "on black grouses," and therefore asked the workers of the Putilov factory to "make a bag of kegresses."
    Which is characteristic. In the USSR, cars were not yet built (they were massively built only in the USA), and the rapid development of automobile theory took place in the US, which was created at the direction of Lenin.
    By the way, it would be time to recall that the Imperial Russian Automobile Society (until December 19, 1909 - the Russian Automobile Society) was established on May 15, 1903 in St. Petersburg.
    This public non-profit organization is the founder (along with the French automobile society) of the international European automobile federation, which organized rallies throughout Europe until the outbreak of the First World War. It included enthusiasts from Germany, and even the king of Sweden. With the direct participation of the outbuilding adjutant Nicholas II Vladimir Vladimirovich Svechin, a graduate of the school of law, competition rules were developed.
    An indispensable participant in the rally was the Czech (Austro-Hungarian) count Sasha Kolovrat, a Russophile, the founder of the film industry, for whom Ferdinand Porsche built cars, and Joseph Broz Tito was his mechanic.
  10. dgonni
    dgonni April 21 2020 23: 10 New
    +6
    The question why Maz won and Zil lost lies in the plane of the engine and the author is not fully disclosed. The question is why Grachev did not put that de tank engine or, in extreme cases, the Yaaz 206B, which produced still legitimate 205 hp. at a moment of 76 kgf? And in the future, yamz 238-240 were already suitable! And Grachev knew about them and their alleged characteristics.
    However, I didn’t put it on an experimental car! Everything rested on the clan uniform and honor of the uniform.
    But MAZ did not have its own motor, and actually there was nothing to choose from. Here they are under the military and put military power from the tank.
    P.S. By the way, the situation is similar with armored personnel carrier 60. Instead of one YAZ 206, and in the future YaMZ 236th, the Gazovtsi shoved a couple of gas 40 engines for the sake of their uniform, then 51 bish forced gas XNUMX leading their ancestry from ancient Amers. For the honor of the uniform and technological succession. And how it will be in operation they were not very worried.
    1. Potter
      Potter April 22 2020 08: 48 New
      +5
      The BTR-60 is generally a big question, due to which it was he who was adopted, and not Grachev’s development, the 3-axle BTR with 1 engine, which passed the test perfectly and was already instructed to manufacture the installation batch. Apparently, the GAZ lobby overcame ZIL. However, it is likely that the author should cover this topic in the sequel, so we are waiting for the continuation.
      ps One of the few interesting and competent articles on VO recently. Thanks again.
  11. Potter
    Potter April 22 2020 08: 13 New
    +2
    Thank you for the article. The work of SKIL ZIL gave many interesting models, but, unfortunately, the transfer of production of ZIL-135 to the BAZ led to the fact that many of Grachev's designs remained unclaimed.
    Small amendment:
    Moreover, it is carbureted, since there were even greater problems with the development of a diesel engine: they did not know how to do this at ZIL.
    - this is not so, even before the Second World War at ZIS, they developed an automobile diesel engine ZIS D-7 with a capacity of about 100 hp, prototypes of which were put, including on the pre-war all-wheel drive three-axle ZIS-36 and on the chassis for the armored car BA-11.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek April 23 2020 08: 52 New
    +1
    Kakmaz with independent suspension.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ4xjbWb3DU&t=550s
  14. exo
    exo April 24 2020 20: 28 New
    +1
    It's time to publish a book on Soviet cars! Very interesting articles.
    But the factory and the design school of ZIL are sorry.
  15. Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble 28 May 2020 18: 06 New
    -1
    Kamaz is zil.