Non-nuclear submarines with anaerobic power plants


DEPL type "Soryu"


This article will focus on submarines with anaerobic or air-independent power plants (VNEU). VNEU is a very wide class of various engines, design solutions, types of fuel. What distinguishes it from the 3rd generation submarine propulsion systems is the ability to be in the underwater position for much longer, which significantly increases the secrecy of such a submarine and makes it difficult to detect anti-submarine aviation. Submarines of the previous generation, for example, a diesel-electric submarine of Project 636 Varshavyanka, should rise to the surface every 3-4 days, turn on diesel engines and recharge the batteries. Modern submarines with VNEU can be under water for weeks.

Consider the main design decisions that are used in the construction of such submarines

Stirling's engine


Stirling engine - a heat engine in which the working fluid in the form of gas or liquid moves in a closed volume, a type of external combustion engine. It is based on the periodic heating and cooling of the working fluid, with the extraction of energy from the resulting pressure change. Typically, air acts as the working fluid, but hydrogen and helium are also used.

Disadvantages.

1. Bulkiness and material consumption: the Stirling engine needs to be cooled, and this leads to a significant increase in the overall dimensions of the power plant due to the increased radiators.

2. To obtain characteristics comparable with the characteristics of ICE, it is necessary to apply high pressures (over 100 atm) and special types of working fluid - hydrogen, helium.

3. Heat is not supplied directly to the working fluid, but only through the walls of the heat exchangers. The walls have limited thermal conductivity, which is why the efficiency is lower than might be expected. A hot heat exchanger operates under very intense heat transfer conditions and at very high pressures, which requires the use of high-quality and expensive materials. Creating a heat exchanger that would satisfy conflicting requirements is a very non-trivial task. The larger the heat transfer area, the greater the heat loss. This increases the size of the heat exchanger and the volume of the working fluid that is not involved in the work. Since the heat source is located outside, the engine slowly responds to changes in the heat flux supplied to the cylinder, and may not immediately give the desired power at startup.

4. To quickly change the engine power, methods are used that are different from those used in ICEs: a buffer capacity of a variable volume, a change in the average pressure of the working fluid in the chambers, a change in the phase angle between the working piston and the displacer. In the latter case, the response of the engine to the control action of the driver is almost instantaneous.

Advantages.

1. Simplicity of design - the engine design is very simple, it does not require additional systems, such as a gas distribution mechanism. It starts independently and does not need a starter. Its characteristics allow you to get rid of the gearbox.

2. The increased resource - simplicity of design, the absence of many "delicate" nodes allows the "stirling" to provide an unprecedented margin of health for other engines in tens and hundreds of thousands of hours of continuous operation.

3. Profitability - for the recovery of certain types of thermal energy, especially with a small temperature difference, "stirling" is often the most effective types of engines.

4. Low noise level - “Stirling” has no exhaust from cylinders, which means that its noise level is much lower than that of piston internal combustion engines.


DEPL type "Gotland"

Submarines with Stirling engines use standard diesel and liquid oxygen as an oxidizing agent. The pioneers in the creation of VNEU with "Stirling" were the Swedes. Their submarines of the Gotland type were the first production submarines with similar engines. I must say that the "stirling" inferior to modern diesel engines in power, so they are used as an addition to the classic diesel-electric power plant. However, this “supplement” allows the Gotland submarine to be under water for up to 20 days. Stirling speed - 5 knots. In addition to the Swedish submarines, Stirling engines are used on Japanese Soryu submarines.

Electrochemical generators


Another type of VNEU is ECG. The electrochemical generator is based on fuel cells. In fact, it is a rechargeable battery with constant recharging. The principle of operation of a power plant with an electrochemical generator is the same as 150 years ago, when the Englishman William Robert Grove accidentally discovered during electrolysis that two platinum strips, blown by one with oxygen and the other with hydrogen, placed in an aqueous solution of sulfuric acid, give current . As a result of the reaction, in addition to electric current, heat and water were formed. In this case, the energy transformation occurs silently, and the only by-product of the reaction is distilled water, which is quite easy to find application in a submarine.

According to the criteria of efficiency and safety, it was decided to keep hydrogen in a bound state in the form of a metal hydride (a special metal alloy combined with hydrogen), and oxygen in a liquefied form in special containers between the light and strong submarine hulls. Between the hydrogen and oxygen cathodes are polymeric electrolyte proton exchange membranes that perform the function of an electrolyte.


DEPL type 212

VNEU with ECG found application on German submarines of type 212. Despite the obvious advantages of the developed fuel cell installation, it does not provide the required operational and tactical characteristics of an ocean-class submarine, primarily in terms of performing high-speed maneuvers when pursuing a target or avoiding an attack the enemy. Therefore, submarines are equipped with a combined propulsion system, in which batteries or fuel cells are used to move at high speeds under water, and a traditional diesel generator is also used to float above the surface, which is also used to recharge batteries. The electrochemical generator, consisting of nine modules of fuel cells, has a total capacity of 400 liters. from. and provides movement of the boat in underwater position with a speed of 3 knots for 20 days with noise levels below the level of natural noise of the sea.

More recently, the Spaniards on submarines of the S-80 type achieved success in creating VNEU. They also used ECG as an anaerobic ancillary equipment, however, they took the path of producing hydrogen from ethanol as a result of its decomposition. Oxygen is stored in liquid form in a special tank. The duration of a submarine’s stay under water reaches 15 days.

Steam Anaerobic Power Plant



DEPL type "Scorpion"

French engineers created the MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) steam generator anaerobic unit, an autonomous energy module for submarines. MESMA uses the principle of the Rankin cycle, which consists of the processes of heating a liquid, its evaporation and superheating of a vapor, adiabatic expansion of a vapor and its condensation. The installation is based on a steam turbine operating in a closed cycle. Ethanol is used as fuel, and oxidizer is liquid oxygen. Ethanol enters the combustion chamber, into which oxygen also enters already in a gaseous state. The combustion temperature of a mixture of alcohol and oxygen can reach more than 700 ° C. Ethanol combustion products - water and carbon dioxide, high pressure of carbon dioxide emitted (up to 60 atmospheres) make it easy to remove it overboard without using a compressor at depths up to 600 m.

The life of the combustion chamber is determined to be 30 years. Thus, it is used throughout the life of the submarine.

The combustion chamber heat exchanger heats a steam generator made of nickel alloys. Heated steam drives a low-noise, high-speed alternating current turbogenerator.

Waste steam enters the nickel-aluminum-bronze condenser, which is also a secondary circuit cooler. The condenser is cooled by running seawater. The resulting condensate is returned to the steam generator. The total amount of water in the steam-condenser system is about 500 liters. Steam turbine rotation speed up to 10 thousand rpm. The rated output power of the generator is not less than 200 kW.

The power of the MESMA installation allows developing submarines of the Scorpena project with an underwater passage of 4 knots, with a sailing duration of about 250 hours. Traditional batteries are used to achieve higher speeds.

Lithium batteries


On March 2020, 11, the Japanese launched the XNUMXth submarine of the Soryu project, but this submarine has a significant difference from other submarines of this type - lithium-ion batteries are installed on it.

Through the use of lithium-ion batteries, the Japanese were able to abandon the use of both Stirling engines and traditional lead-acid batteries on the new submarine.

Lithium batteries provide such a submarine with an underwater travel time comparable to other VNEU, and the large capacity of the new batteries allows the submarine to reach an underwater speed of 20 knots.

VNEU in the Russian Navy



Model 750B submarine

Of course, the main issue for us is the situation with anaerobic engines for submarines in Russia. How are we doing? Unfortunately, our developers have not yet achieved success in creating VNEU. The first Russian diesel-electric submarine with VNEU was supposed to be the submarine of project 677 Lada, but things went wrong. Nevertheless, work on the creation of a VNEU is ongoing and in 2019 a new research and development department on this topic was opened.

The Central Design Bureau “Rubin”, which is developing an anaerobic installation based on ECG and design bureau “Malachite”, working on the creation of an anaerobic closed-cycle gas turbine engine, takes part in the creation of VNEU.

The development of Malachite is a single gas turbine engine that can be used both in the surface and underwater position. In the above-water position, atmospheric air is used for movement. Under water, an oxidizing agent is supplied from a Dewar vessel, which contains liquid oxygen. The gas mixture emitted by the turbine is cleaned and frozen, without releasing anything outside. Thus, the underwater speed without using a battery (only from VNEU) exceeds 10 knots. Malachite is developing not only an engine, but also a submarine. The project has a code P-750B. The designed submarine has 1450 tons of surface displacement, a crew of 18-20 people, a depth of immersion of up to 300 m, and a maximum speed of 18 knots. The submarine may be armed with torpedoes, mines and even Caliber cruise missiles.

Conclusion


It remains to answer the question: why does the Russian Navy need submarines with VNEU? In essence, modern VNEU have a number of disadvantages: low power, which forces them to be used together with a traditional diesel-electric power plant, as a result - low underwater speed at VNEU (not applicable to diesel-electric submarines with lithium-ion batteries), high cost, necessity facilities on the Navy special infrastructure.

Yet advantages outweigh disadvantages. The main one is the high secrecy and difficulty in detecting such submarines by anti-submarine aircraft. For us, this is very important, because, for example, Japan has about a hundred modern anti-submarine aircraft. Another advantage is a very low noise level, often less than the background noise of the sea. And finally, no matter how expensive the submarine is with VNEU, it is still cheaper than the nuclear one. In addition, submarines with VNEU are actively used in the fleets of our potential adversaries: Germany, Turkey, Japan. In case of conflict, our submariners will have to confront more advanced submarines. And if you do not develop modern engines with VNEU, then the technological gap that is taking place now will eventually become an irresistible catcher.
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  1. Alex 2020 April 19 2020 05: 00 New
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    It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage. Generally there is no military-technical intelligence. But what about the banal theft, blackmail, copying, bribery and other ways of obtaining information? Or are these not our methods and we don’t need someone else?
    1. Chaldon48 April 19 2020 07: 30 New
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      We need capacities that know engineers and technologies, a lot of this “sailed” from Russia to the dashing 90s, so we can say we were robbed and not by anyone, but by our officials.
      1. Navat April 19 2020 22: 50 New
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        The theme of the German boat 212 of the project is not disclosed, but this is the best non-nuclear submarine to date
      2. Jager April 20 2020 18: 13 New
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        With this approach, it continues to “float away”.
    2. V.I.P. April 19 2020 08: 54 New
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      In Soviet times, the KGB was the best in industrial espionage. Now China is the coolest of all ..... Why is the Russian Federation industrial espionage? Firstly, there are no production plants. For example, all radio electronics and machine tools are imported. True, Europe is not selling right now. But there is Southeast Asia and China. ... Well, also, the guarantor says that we have ALL PARTNERS !!!! You can’t rub with them. This is the USSR stolen from the enemies is possible.)))))
      1. tihonmarine April 19 2020 09: 16 New
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        Quote: V.I.P.
        You can’t rub with them. This USSR stole from the enemies, it is possible.

        If Stalin hadn’t been tyril, then there would be nothing to meet Hitler with. Typing is not shameful, but sitting back and doing nothing is already criminal.
        1. BREAKTHROUGH READY April 19 2020 09: 33 New
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          The great comrade Stalin did not steal anything! Under his leadership, the Soviet Union openly purchased equipment, licenses, and often entire factories.
          1. Peter is not the first April 19 2020 11: 26 New
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            And also, Stalin developed his science, for example, on nuclear fusion, but at the same time duplicated this with intelligence data on the Manhattan project. Did not put all the eggs in one basket.
          2. tihonmarine April 20 2020 18: 52 New
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            Quote: BREAKTHROUGH READY
            The great comrade Stalin did not steal anything! Under his leadership, the Soviet Union openly purchased equipment, licenses, and often entire factories.

            Yes, what does it mean “tyryl” or bought, but on this basis they created a shield that protected the state, and this is the most important thing.
          3. mvg
            mvg April 20 2020 22: 37 New
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            The great comrade Stalin did not steal anything!

            Tell it to Tupolev and Tu-4
        2. Jager April 20 2020 18: 16 New
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          In the late 20s and early 30s, the Union purchased technology and equipment from leading powers - from Germany, the USA, and Great Britain. An agreement on military-technical cooperation was generally concluded with Germany. And if Hitler were smarter, he would not have torn it apart.
      2. Chaldon48 April 21 2020 03: 17 New
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        To use the stolen technology, technological capabilities are needed, smart technologists are needed. This cannot be achieved in a year or two. Need stubborn and lengthy work at the state level. It is necessary that there would be people among the ruling elite who would at least have a little understanding of the materials that intelligence would provide them and, accordingly, would be able to select the true pros to work with these materials
    3. Zhan April 19 2020 09: 27 New
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      Quote: Alex 2020
      It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage. Generally there is no military-technical intelligence. But what about the banal theft, blackmail, copying, bribery and other ways of obtaining information? Or are these not our methods and we don’t need someone else?

      There is no sense, everything has long been invented in the work. They rub it in here, how to find a solution. And under the Soviet Union, propulsion systems based on a flywheel (flywheel) were already created and there were buses with this engine and trucks on wood, with a gas generator ... smile And they really worked and were involved in the national economy ... smile
      There were very serious developments on permanent magnet motor generators.
      And I’ll tell you not cunningly, now Caterpillar’s ​​company, High Tech, is also using these achievements ....
      What are their DIBPs (Diesel Uninterruptible Power Supplies).
      Moreover, diesels work no more than 10-15 minutes to spin the flywheel.
      And their further work is going on, absolutely without a diesel engine in the autonomy, providing further stability by the electro-mechanical control circuit of the unit.
      I personally mounted such units with max. With a capacity of 2,2 mVat one and this is not the limit.
    4. Sergey S. April 19 2020 09: 40 New
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      Quote: Alex 2020
      It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage.

      Once we were, if not ahead of the rest, then, at least, at the level of the best world standards.
      The closed-cycle diesel was brought to a series.
      Fuel cells (ECG) - at sea tested on an experimental, but full-size submarine.
      They managed to create and test a small-sized nuclear installation (Dolezhall's egg) ...
      And how many underwater vehicles were built!

      Output.
      If nothing has been done, it means that the performers did not demand the result .... they did not demand enough ... at the final stage they did not demand ...
      Otherwise, the situation cannot be understood by common sense.
      1. Jager April 20 2020 18: 37 New
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        Why gas station technology? All that is is still a Soviet backlog.
    5. Sailor April 19 2020 10: 22 New
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      I’ll add that we don’t have anything at all and it seems that designers have also failed to create VNEU once in so many years. Further, the country will be even worse and education will degrade.
      1. Aviator_ April 20 2020 16: 07 New
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        There were boats with VNEU of the first generation - 615 project, 50-60 years. Received the unofficial name of "lighter".
        1. Sailor April 21 2020 10: 43 New
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          Yes, I read about it, but then there was the USSR, and then our scientific thought in many areas was ahead of the rest, and now they know how to "absorb" budget money, even in Ukraine and Belarus there are some developments quite competitive, and this despite the fact that their budget is not comparable to ours.
          1. Aviator_ April 21 2020 12: 07 New
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            Of course, it can be, but you probably got excited about developments in Ukraine. And liquid oxygen aboard the submarine is still a dead end, no matter how it is being promoted now. The combat stability of such a submarine is zero. At project 615, too, there were all difficulties due to liquid oxygen.
            1. Sailor April 21 2020 12: 43 New
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              Well, why, Ukrainian armored personnel carriers are an example, even in a small series, the quality is certainly not so good, but this is not the fault of the designers. Soon, and we will be of such quality to make equipment if nothing is changed in the country. The same Bastions are not bad, the analog of our T- 90M, just how many years earlier. Design features, reverse 35 km / h, our 15, ICE 1200hp, albeit from the Soviet era, but brought to mind, but where is our PR? For so many years, we can’t do a tank engine driving a T-34, and here we are talking about VNEU.
              1. Aviator_ April 21 2020 12: 46 New
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                I’m talking about VNEU, especially since I lost the only Navy boat. About armored vehicles - the customer urgently needs this, that’s it.
                1. Sailor April 21 2020 12: 54 New
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                  Of course, the fleet is not there, and what was after the collapse he sold and so on. I’m talking about the big picture in the country and the military-industrial complex in particular, even our Volgograd flagship “Barricades” will soon be bent if order is not put in order.
                  1. Aviator_ April 21 2020 12: 59 New
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                    I talked with your representatives with Barrikad in the summer, while they are alive, they even do something a little.
                    1. Sailor April 21 2020 13: 07 New
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                      They have not yet made all the workers dismissed, or the management apparatus is not particularly literate growing, and the workaholic is being reduced who know what to do and how to do it, and they are cutting salaries not to the detriment of themselves and their friends and relatives, of course. Generally nepotism!
      2. Usher April 20 2020 18: 50 New
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        I’ll add that we don’t have anything at all and it seems that designers have also failed to create VNEU once in so many years. Further, the country will be even worse and education will degrade.

        Can you see your big mind?
        1. Sailor April 21 2020 10: 45 New
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          Enough to see how knowledge-intensive production and the degradation of the country are being destroyed.
          1. Usher April 22 2020 16: 03 New
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            Quote: Sailor
            Enough to see how knowledge-intensive production and the degradation of the country are being destroyed.

            Then where does the constructor have to do with it? Can you design something? Rocket, plane, ship?
            1. Sailor April 22 2020 20: 47 New
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              I have a different profile, although I am a mechanical engineer by training. Who studied what. Therefore, I say that education is degrading with the state.
    6. iouris April 19 2020 12: 25 New
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      Quote: Alex 2020
      It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage.

      Well sho you accident! We have been members of the WTO since 2012. We strictly fulfill our obligations and even enter the structures created by the USA to control the spread of dual-use technologies. How can you.
    7. Shopping Mall April 19 2020 13: 59 New
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      Quote: Alex 2020
      It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage. Generally there is no military-technical intelligence. But what about the banal theft, blackmail, copying, bribery and other ways of obtaining information? Or are these not our methods and we don’t need someone else?


      In order to copy something you need to have an equal technological level. If the Afghan Taliban or Burkina Faso scholars are given detailed blueprints of the atomic bomb, there will be no sense in this.

      If technological competencies that we do not need to produce VNEU of one type or another are needed, then we won’t be able to copy anything until there are specialists and equipment capable of providing this level. Theft of technology allows only to speed up the process and save on development. No more.
      1. Sergey S. April 20 2020 00: 03 New
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        Quote: AVM
        If technological competencies that we do not need to produce VNEU of one type or another are needed, then we won’t be able to copy anything until there are specialists and equipment capable of providing this level. Theft of technology allows only to speed up the process and save on development. No more.

        I wrote that in the USSR it was all.
        In each of the areas, even now there are still living specialists.
        But ...
        Managers are trying to lead ... And they ruin everything native further. For you can master the budget and not be responsible for the final result.
      2. Zastupnik April 20 2020 18: 53 New
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        Quote: AVM
        In order to copy something you need to have an equal technological level. If the Afghan Taliban or Burkina Faso scholars are given detailed blueprints of the atomic bomb, there will be no sense in this.

        Right ! I remembered Korolev’s memoirs when they studied the German Fau-rocket .. So there about 1500 alloys were used that were not made in the USSR .. And in fact I had to develop everything from scratch ourselves .. These are the words of Korlev!
    8. ver_ April 19 2020 15: 43 New
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      ... we have everything, beside desire and mind ...
    9. NF68 April 19 2020 16: 00 New
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      Quote: Alex 2020
      It seems that in Russia there are no services leading industrial espionage. Generally there is no military-technical intelligence. But what about the banal theft, blackmail, copying, bribery and other ways of obtaining information? Or are these not our methods and we don’t need someone else?


      It would not hurt to have an appropriately developed industry in order to be able to use what intelligence had obtained in an acceptable time frame.
    10. gridasov April 19 2020 19: 34 New
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      It remains to state the fact that in Russia there is a problem with the intellectual level of not only industrial intelligence. For several years, not only a fundamentally new type of propulsion with a more efficient process algorithm has been openly positioned on the forum site, but also the basic principles of operation of a VNEU and a turbine combined with a current generator.
  2. Donald72 April 19 2020 05: 58 New
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    It’s also strange. It’s in the garage knowing how it works you can’t overpower it, and here the design bureaus are pilot plants, the physics of the process is not a secret and we cannot master.
    1. really April 19 2020 06: 18 New
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      Do not forget about technology, materials, workmanship, how many years it took to create a turbine of more than 100 MW
      1. Donald72 April 19 2020 06: 24 New
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        It is clear that they cannot overpower from natural stupidity. But in appearance it all just seems.
    2. 210ox April 19 2020 08: 52 New
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      What strangeness? Elementary loot. There is no money for the right thing. I will not speak about well-known memes.
    3. SVD68 April 19 2020 10: 15 New
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      Quote: Donald72
      It’s also strange. It’s in the garage knowing how it works you can’t overpower it, and here the design bureaus are pilot plants, the physics of the process is not a secret and we cannot master.

      There is a simple answer to this. Characteristics of VNEU are not satisfied. VNEU - auxiliary engine. And to break through to the main fails.
  3. mark1 April 19 2020 06: 11 New
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    liquid oxygen on board a boat is always bad. The Japanese understood this, after 615 ave., We learned it well.
    1. Donald72 April 19 2020 06: 26 New
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      There lithium akamulyator evil and acid. In a tin can that don’t put all the dangerous combustible poison will be.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Aleksandr1971 April 19 2020 07: 06 New
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        This is only at this stage. Once upon a time, cars with an internal combustion engine were also criticized as unsafe. According to your logic, Donald72, if any phenomenon or technology creates a risk, then it should be avoided. But I do not agree with you here. As Churchill said, "where he sees a stupid problem, there the smart sees opportunities." There were articles on the topic of lithium-ion batteries, which indicated both risks and great prospects. It is only necessary to hone the technology.

        The author of the article correctly identified the problem - namely, that the lack of work in this direction, despite the risks of the technology, will lead to a hopeless lag behind the enemy, and therefore to defeat in the event of a conflict. Already now, any East Asian state (China, North Korea, Japan, and South Korea) is far superior to Russia in any conventional armament except ground defense. I believe that Russia needs to restore the pre-existing absolute military superiority over any neighboring country (except China), especially in D. Vostok, since this region is especially vulnerable. To protect against China, quantitative and qualitative proportionality in armaments is sufficient.

        In my opinion, it is useful to work in two directions at once: 1) work on VNEU; 2) improvement of lithium-ion batteries. Moreover, these are clearly mutually exclusive directions. In the future, one only needs to decide which one will ultimately turn out to be the most promising.

        Most likely with lithium-ion batteries VNEU on our submarines will not be needed. 10-15 days of underwater travel with lithium-ion batteries - this is quite enough for the effective operation of the submarine. With such a margin of autonomy, non-nuclear submarines will be able to: 1) take on the function of escorting the SSBNs in the areas of their combat duty, which the ICAPL previously engaged in; 2) to accompany the IBM in the far sea zone; 3) more effectively protect the Navy bases and straits; 4) or it may be possible to assign to such submarines the task of intercepting enemy transoceanic routes
        1. rudolff April 19 2020 07: 44 New
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          "In my opinion, it is useful to work in two directions at once: 1) work on VNEU; 2) improvement of lithium-ion batteries. Moreover, these are clearly mutually exclusive directions."
          There is nothing mutually exclusive here. Rather, the opposite. LIABs complement VNEU well. We worked in these areas. Rather, it worked. Until recently, and with the same "success" - Rubin.
          1. bar
            bar April 19 2020 09: 25 New
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            I agree with paragraph 2. The normal way, not greatly complicating the system. And this whole zoo in VNEU, with fuel cells / turbines / ICE / oxygen on board, is not a viable thing.
            We worked with fuel cells, even made a couple of cars (Antel project), a terribly complex and unrealistically expensive thing. There you need a huge amount of one platinum catalyst, even on the scale of one car.
            1. rudolff April 19 2020 09: 31 New
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              And you will notice how much the cost of Soryu with LIABs has increased relative to the same with Stirling. The golden boat turned out.
              1. bar
                bar April 19 2020 09: 37 New
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                Now it’s hard to say something about the cost. But the complexity of the Stirlig bundle + oxygen storage system + gas removal system + the same ICE + generators does not raise any doubts. As for fuel cells, their cost probably covers LIAB, not to mention the same complexity.
                As for LIAB, their you must finally learn to do it yourselfrather than buying from the Chinese. And not to charge this business to the Chubas LIOTECHs. Then the issue will be solved with the cost.
                1. rudolff April 19 2020 09: 48 New
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                  Rubin was engaged in LIABs for submarines. And safely ruined all the work, as with VNEU. Although some progress has been outlined in LIABs now.
                  The main criterion of TE for ECG is efficiency-cost. We have a problem with this. Low productivity and expensive. Alas, technology ... Prior to the well-known events and the imposition of sanctions, we seriously talked with the Germans about the supply of fuel cells for our VNEU.
                  1. bar
                    bar April 19 2020 09: 58 New
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                    LIABs and St. Petersburg "source" involved. But, apparently, there was no “clear indication” with his fist in his ear, but nothing came of it except for cutting the budget. As for the ECG, they were also made for the "Buran". We worked with them. The complexity of the device is incredible, the price is prohibitive. Moreover, given the amount of platinum catalyst, a significant decrease is hardly possible in mass production. In my opinion - a dead end branch.

                    we seriously talked with the Germans about the supply of fuel cells for our VNEU.

                    You didn’t speak with those. We had to talk with UECC.
        2. Amateur April 19 2020 08: 55 New
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          or it may be possible to assign to such submarines the task of intercepting enemy transoceanic routes
          request
          And why should such tasks be assigned to a submarine if there is a submarine?
          Have you noticed which countries are building such "VNEushnye" boats? Only those who are not really going to fight and do not own the technology or cannot build nuclear submarines.
          It was only the Germans in the period of II MV that could sail in the Atlantic for 700 months on the seven-ton “Sevens”. But mortality among them was prohibitive.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 19 2020 09: 35 New
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            Quote: Amateur
            And why should such tasks be assigned to a submarine if there is a submarine?

            That is if there is. But they are not.
            Quote: Amateur
            Only those who are not really going to fight and do not own the technology or cannot build nuclear submarines.

            Consider why the USSR, along with the Premier League, built the most serious series of diesel-electric submarines (Halibut)
            1. Amateur April 19 2020 09: 42 New
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              Why think. "Varshavyanka" were built for export and to protect their bases.
              Until 2006, 24 submarines were built for the Navy of the USSR and Russia, as well as 29 boats for export. [12] As of 2016, the construction of ships continues in modification 636.3, six boats have been ordered for the Black Sea Fleet, the same number for the Pacific Fleet, and a number of export ones for Vietnam and Algeria. (Wiki)
              1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk April 19 2020 15: 01 New
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                Quote: Amateur
                Why think. "Varshavyanka" were built for export and to protect their bases.

                Thus, we see that in the USSR, although they had a very powerful nuclear submarine fleet (we were ahead of the Americans in the number of pennants), we still did not shy away from building significant DEPL forces. Do not conflict with your statement
                Quote: Amateur
                Have you noticed which countries are building such "VNEushnye" boats? Only those who are not really going to fight and do not own the technology or cannot build nuclear submarines.

                ?
                1. Amateur April 19 2020 15: 38 New
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                  Do not conflict with your statement

                  And what is the contradiction? I have never said anything against diesel-electric submarines, all the more so since Varshavyanka have “full electric movement”.
                  They organically complement the near nuclear submarine zone.
                  But the hype surrounding VNEU is incomprehensible to me. Here, some colleagues emphasize that VNEU boats "significantly exceed the usual time spent under water." But this time is determined not only by the energy reserve of the propulsion device, but also by the presence of oxygen and carbon dioxide absorption systems on board. In addition, a long stay under water requires fundamentally significantly more complex navigation systems. Otherwise, the "Swedish Komsomolets" is guaranteed.
                  Have you ever and anywhere ever read anything about these systems from Germans, Swedes or Japanese? Me not. And discussing without this the characteristics of the submarine is more like "ce x" on the phone. "
                  1. Dmitry from Voronezh April 19 2020 15: 56 New
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                    VNEU gives its advantages - it is stealth, the duration of the underwater course. It is still an expensive and low-power addition to a traditional diesel-electric installation. Their main disadvantage is the low power and, as a consequence, the low speed at VNEU.
                    But over time, technology will evolve. The Japanese have already made a breakthrough with lithium-ion batteries. It is possible that over time diesel engines and gas turbines of a closed cycle will appear, which will give submarines higher speed characteristics. So work on VNEU is a big job for the future.
                    1. Amateur April 19 2020 16: 54 New
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                      this is stealth, the duration of the underwater course.

                      Respected! Do you just write the answers? A huge request is sometimes to read what you comment on.
                      But this time is determined not only by the energy reserve of the propulsion device, but also by the presence of oxygen and carbon dioxide absorption systems on board. In addition, a long stay under water requires fundamentally significantly more complex navigation systems. Otherwise, the "Swedish Komsomolets" is guaranteed.

                      Due to the fact that you didn’t read it. whether they ignored "all sorts of nonsense", but if it doesn’t complicate you of course, specifically answer the questions asked about air regeneration and navigation.
                      1. Dmitry from Voronezh April 19 2020 20: 19 New
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                        Victor, good evening! I answer your questions.
                        1. Navigation on the submarine is carried out on the basis of an inertial navigation system incorporating gyrocompasses and accelerometers. You are right here. There are auxiliary ways to which the submarine can resort in a combat situation: echolocation, ascent to the surface of special buoys with sensors.
                        2. Oxygen regeneration is carried out on the basis of water electrolysis in UERVK. Nikolay wrote you right. Electrolysis requires electricity. This is not a problem on a nuclear submarine, on a diesel-electric submarine it’s more and more complicated. However, modern diesel-electric submarines with VNEU have on board the supply of liquid oxygen necessary for the operation of VNEU, but it is also used for the crew’s breathing, which makes it possible to stay under water for up to 20 days.
                        3. About radio waves you are wrong. They still spread under water. We are talking about extra-long radio waves in the range of extremely low, ultra-low, infra-low and very low frequencies. Based on them, the radio communication of the submarine with the shore was built.
                      2. Amateur April 20 2020 06: 57 New
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                        3. About radio waves you are wrong. They still spread under water. It's about ultra-long range radio waves

                        At one time I had a chance to visit Vileika and Kara-bolt (they have already been "laid down" on the Internet. I checked it specially). But consider ADD a means of communication can only be very conditional. A kind of quasi-Moroccan shore-boat.
      3. Donald72 April 20 2020 05: 29 New
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        Alexander in my remark was the irony for the post mark1 regarding hydrogen in the boat. Whichever way you choose to extend the time spent under water, you still have to install something dangerous and you have to measure it. Since the forced ascent near the enemy destroyer is by any means more dangerous.
  4. rudolff April 19 2020 07: 37 New
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    mark1, on “lighters” the idea of ​​a closed-cycle diesel engine was not the best for submarines, and it was implemented not in the best way. Technology of the middle of the last century. And in the late 80s, the 613E Katran appeared with VNEU on ECG and its tests were considered successful. Oxygen and hydrogen were outside the solid casing.
    1. mark1 April 19 2020 09: 53 New
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      I believe that since we are leaders in the creation of small-sized nuclear power plants, we have to go this way, the more the track has already been beaten (VAU-6), and LIAB, and VNEU is a bigger export topic
      1. rudolff April 19 2020 10: 05 New
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        In theory. But practically ... Why were we able to quickly rivet Varshavyanka to an entire brigade for the Black Sea Fleet? Simplicity and cheapness. The Lada project is a bit more complicated and has already rested its forehead. And this is without any VNEU. Now imagine the construction of boats with small-sized YaU. By cost and by time.
        1. mark1 April 19 2020 10: 19 New
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          And you re-read the story of "Dollezhal's egg" and you will see that the production of submarines and WOW do not delay each other but go in parallel (and it’s not so expensive)
        2. Cyril G ... April 21 2020 12: 19 New
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          Because VNEU we can’t do, from the word in general, but we are building various reactors.
          In addition, if the reactor installation is removable, such submarines can be built independently of the reactors.
  • Amateur April 19 2020 08: 02 New
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    In addition, submarines with VNEU are actively used in the fleets of our potential adversaries: Germany, Turkey, Japan.

    VNEU, VNEU, VNEU ... Like shabby cats on the roof.
    The Americans whom the so-called "experts," either. And even R&D is not conducted.
    But for some reason, not a single cowboy from the Oklahoma region is tearing jeans with screams: “All-propolopolimers”.
    1. rudolff April 19 2020 08: 22 New
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      We would have such a geographical location and we would not need them.
      1. Amateur April 19 2020 08: 57 New
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        We would have such a geographical location

        Can you explain in more detail what geography did not please you?
        1. rudolff April 19 2020 08: 59 New
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          She really pleased me.
          1. Amateur April 19 2020 09: 48 New
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            So geographic location or not?
            1. rudolff April 19 2020 09: 55 New
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              What is the question, that is the answer. My geographical location pleased me completely. But the Navy forces it to build a diesel-electric submarine along with the nuclear submarines.
              1. Kushka April 19 2020 13: 25 New
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                Bravo! Anecdote - Holmes and Watson rode a ball. A storm broke
                the sky turned black and they suffered. After a while, in a cloud they saw
                hole and cowgirl on the lawn. Watson yells at him, "Where are we?"
                The shepherd replies - "In a balloon" - and then darkness again.
                What is the question - that is the answer.
    2. knn54 April 19 2020 08: 59 New
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      The Yankees generally do not need diesel-electric submarines that are designed to operate near their own territory — the marine zone. In the far oceanic zone they are used by those states that do not have the technology of creating nuclear submarines.
      The question is, are diesel-electric submarines with VNEU necessary for the Baltic and Black Seas?
      1. Amateur April 19 2020 09: 05 New
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        We think exactly the same!

        Christ is Risen! Happy holiday!
      2. rudolff April 19 2020 09: 40 New
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        Are needed. In the threatened period, VNEU allows you to keep the battery in a fully charged state, and this is the key to the successful implementation of the knowledge base. DEPL, even with LIABs, constantly consumes electricity. It is not known with what level of charge the battery can receive a combat mission. And if with a 50-30% charge or less? The combat effectiveness of such a submarine tends to zero.
      3. Eug
        Eug April 19 2020 22: 37 New
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        As for me, for these “through and through” seas you need even more.
    3. ZAV69 April 19 2020 10: 16 New
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      So the Americans do not have a special need for small coastal boats, they have a fleet of oceans, and the ocean is the most.
  • VicktorVR April 19 2020 08: 16 New
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    I just can’t understand if "stirling" works from the heat of combustion (oxidation?) Of alcohol with oxygen, why can a regular diesel engine also not work? Inject oxygen along with fuel, exhaust - overboard, or "freeze".

    Exhaust bubbles will unmask the submarine as a scuba diver :).
    1. rudolff April 19 2020 08: 24 New
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      Why can't it? Can. Closed cycle diesel engine. Project A615 of the middle of the last century. In the common people - "lighters."
      1. novel66 April 19 2020 10: 20 New
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        do we have one? why are there no such boats ?? indeed, the Mongols are more likely to build us ..
    2. chenia April 19 2020 09: 03 New
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      Quote: VicktorVR
      if "stirling" works from the heat of combustion (oxidation?) of alcohol with oxygen,


      Stirling can work on any fuel reaction or phenomenon (for example, on unitary fuel, but 40% more is needed in equivalent). The Stirling cycle has an efficiency of up to 70% (and this problem would be smoothed out), but expansion machines with reciprocating motion and 30% of efficiency are difficult to achieve. The Stirling problem built on such a basis is not large heat exchangers (just the opposite), but the dependence on dead (unchanged functional) and stray volumes.
    3. Denimax April 19 2020 12: 53 New
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      The question also arises, why not make Stirling work on nuclear fuel? It also gives off heat.
  • pmkemcity April 19 2020 08: 30 New
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    The article should be written on the topic "Rooster, as an engine of progress."
    Back in the mid-80s, I didn’t remember which, but a fresh, import journal. It was an article on the use of lithium-ion batteries in cardiac stimulants. Quite detailed, with prices, terms of work, output parameters, mass, etc. The collective idea of ​​using this miracle on a submarine arose immediately. Counted, figured it turned out cheaply and cheerfully.
    And, to paraphrase the classic - if something is not done, then someone needs it.
    1. novel66 April 19 2020 10: 21 New
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      it means someone needs it.

      worse, colleague ... someone doesn’t need this fuck ....
  • BREAKTHROUGH READY April 19 2020 09: 53 New
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    I wrote here before that we do not need VNEU. Their time is long gone and catching up with the leaving steam locomotive is not the most prudent one. It is necessary to try to “cut off on a bend” by concentrating all forces on the development of electric ships with large capacity batteries. Russia has the resources for this, I hope there are enough brains.
    1. Amateur April 19 2020 10: 08 New
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      I wrote here before that we do not need VNEU.

      I fully support you and try to explain that VNEU is more an advertising product than a combat one. But the "VNEUshnoe" lobby at VO, unfortunately, was likened to Ellochka the Cannibal: "In Sweden, there are even in Spain," and only our lapotniks ... "
      Right now, minusculeers will peck us at the holes in the clave.
      Christ is Risen! Happy holiday!
      1. pmkemcity April 20 2020 05: 18 New
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        Quote: Amateur
        and only our lapotniki ... "

        My conversation with one high boss - it cannot be that everything would be so simple, please, look again ... Then - people are not doing this more stupidly than you, it means there’s some kind of catch ...
        And ideas, they fly in the air. After a year, two, five you look - and so, "they" already do. You start a conversation, the answer - all the same, we would not have succeeded ...
    2. gridasov April 19 2020 19: 47 New
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      VNEU in their real and effective form represent not only the energy element of the submarine, but the key energy object for underwater settlements, and in the future, settlements on other planets and in different atmospheres. Therefore, this is a deep misunderstanding of the issue.
      1. pmkemcity April 20 2020 04: 55 New
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        Quote: gridasov
        and in the future, and settlements on other planets and in different atmospheres

        Well, they would spend money on the "space department".
    3. pmkemcity April 20 2020 05: 00 New
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      Quote: BREAKTHROUGH READY
      concentrating all forces on the development and electric ships with high-capacity battery

      There is an eternal Russian fear: “what if the electrons are on strike there, or if the holes of the wrong system turn out to be, the old diesel engine will come in handy.”
  • bar
    bar April 19 2020 10: 02 New
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    Quote: Aleksandr1971
    Most likely with lithium-ion batteries VNEU on our submarines will not be needed.

    I agree to 146%. Than significantly complicate the system, reducing its reliability, and spray in different directions on all this exotic, it is better to concentrate and finally learn how to make lithium batteries yourself. It's time, we lag behind in this very much.
  • novel66 April 19 2020 10: 18 New
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    DEPL type "Soryu"


    nichrome mutation itself ....
  • Zaurbek April 19 2020 11: 39 New
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    Lion, it seems to me, is the most correct way ..... and, besides, it is developing the production of the batteries themselves, which are applicable in the national economy .... the era of electric transport is just around the corner.
    1. pmkemcity April 20 2020 05: 09 New
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      Quote: Zaurbek
      Lion, it seems to me, is the most correct way ..... and, besides, it is developing the production of the batteries themselves, which are applicable in the national economy .... the era of electric transport is just around the corner.

      https://www.liotech.ru/products/akkumulyatory/akkumulyatory-vtorogo-pokoleniya/
      https://www.liotech.ru/products/akkumulyatory/akkumulyatory-tretego-pokoleniya/
  • iouris April 19 2020 12: 20 New
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    Quote: "... How are we doing? Unfortunately, our developers have not yet succeeded ..." End of quote.
    "Our developers" already sounds somehow strange. Everything is already open and developed. We’ll buy everything. Just sell oil and gas and buy. Sami will offer!
  • Goshan April 19 2020 14: 09 New
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    Well, refueling a submarine with ethanol is dangerous for the crew ....
    1. iouris April 19 2020 22: 37 New
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      If the crew is foreign, then you can.
    2. Nemchinov Vl April 21 2020 13: 28 New
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      Quote: Goshan
      Well, refueling a submarine with ethanol is dangerous for the crew ....
      afraid her crew "he will disarm and immobilize" ?! laughing lol belay
  • Operator April 19 2020 15: 56 New
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    VNEU is a typical object of the cargo cult: clumsy technical solutions with an exorbitant mass, a meager increase in the duration of the underwater passage, explosive oxygen sources.

    The same applies to lithium-ion batteries, ready to self-ignite at the slightest violation of the charging mode. Nevertheless, the idolaters of the cargo cult from a half-turn start up for wet dreams from copying foreign crafts in domestic shipbuilding.

    The nuclear submarine fleet is our everything, a nuclear fast-neutron reactor and lead coolant steers.
    1. Dmitry from Voronezh April 19 2020 16: 06 New
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      Partly you are right - anaerobic engines have many shortcomings: low power, complexity of manufacturing, maintenance, high price. But now they are expanding the capabilities of diesel-electric submarines in terms of stealth, the duration of the underwater course, low noise. In addition, further technology will be improved. Therefore, it makes sense to invest in VNEU, at least as if in work for the future. And if VNEU would not give real advantages, Europeans, Japanese, Chinese would not invest in them. They know how to count money well, it is unlikely that they will be spent on a useless project.
      1. ab2020 April 19 2020 17: 19 New
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        Such developments cost a lot of money. Spend huge resources just for the sake of scientific interest?
        It must be remembered that the population of Russia is 1/7 of the "conditional west." Even if measured not in money, but in man-hours, we simply physically do not have the opportunity to do everything ourselves and better than they are. We need to carefully choose research areas, combine “technology transfer” and our own developments.
        I see the ways:
        1. Lithium-ion batteries. With all the disadvantages - the easiest adaptation of existing diesel-electric submarines for them. + Can be kept at the pier for recharging.
        2. Mini - nuclear submarines. The Russian Federation has outstanding competencies in this direction, and not using them is unreasonable. A nuclear power plant provides orders of magnitude greater autonomy and underwater speed, even theoretically unattainable for VNEU.
        Thank you for the article!
        1. Dmitry from Voronezh April 19 2020 18: 43 New
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          And thank you for the interesting comment!
        2. gridasov April 19 2020 19: 50 New
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          Nuclear facilities, but on fundamentally different procedural phenomena.
        3. Cyril G ... April 21 2020 12: 26 New
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          A small reactor of the type of space topaz for recharging DEPL batteries is not good?
        4. Nemchinov Vl April 21 2020 13: 48 New
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          Quote: ab2020
          we simply physically do not have the opportunity to do everything ourselves and better than they.
          ?! - https://youtu.be/5UbhAqCr_S4 .... firstly, it's just not a very bad movie !! secondly ... they have Den Milman, we have Valery Kharlamov (!)As the most successful example, to learn "here and now" (!) / if from about 1.50.52 to the end (credits) / ... for the sake of the game / path / as meaning, and not for the sake of a medal .... (conclusion) ?! According to this, my friend, you suggest to see the goals in the Delhi (?)
          Quote: ab2020
          I see the ways:
          and not WAYS, unfortunately (!) ... Just for this reason it doesn’t work out ... maybe. no
          Quote: ab2020
          Thank you for the article!
          and here, I agree with you. hi Thanks to the author. drinks Those come to the real result. (!)who goes in the first place not for the sake of purpose (otherwise you can later encounter emptiness ....), but looking for inspiration in the path itself, surrendering to it without a trace !!
          as a quote from one of the Soviet films - "labor itself is already pleasure !!!" (it seems in "The formula of love", the peasant Stepan said, if I’m not mistaken ..)
  • Cats April 19 2020 19: 13 New
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    On the topic VNEU read articles of various experts. What are the findings? There are 2 directions: 1) DEPL with an additional alternative propulsion and, 2) DEPL with lithium-ion batteries (LIAB). For the production of the former, a new or substantially revised existing diesel-electric submarine project is needed, for the latter, existing ones are sufficient, but because LIAB has other electrical characteristics, it requires the replacement of avionics.
    According to experts, there are no technical problems with the creation of VNEU in Russia. But, as far as one can judge, ours have taken the path of installation on the LIAB diesel submarine (recall the experiments on LOSHARIK). If it is possible to eliminate the problems associated with LIAB, then this path will probably be more optimal and cheaper than others. Then already all existing diesel-electric submarines can be retrofitted to LIAB (with the replacement of avionics, respectively), and get boats with significantly improved characteristics at the exit.
  • strelokmira April 19 2020 19: 47 New
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    There is no money for the construction of a nuclear submarine; there is also no money for the creation of its own VNEU ...
    That's the whole story
  • Parsec April 19 2020 21: 46 New
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    Quote: Nikolai-1970
    Rurik '-' Vickers' in Barrow-Inn-Furness, England;


    Geography and proper names need to be monitored very carefully, or it turns out like yours, Rurik is built on the Barrow Inn. Barrow-in-Furness is correct, and it is better to leave the original spelling in the article, giving a Russian transcription, because Renault, Peugeot or Bordeaux will not always be understood.

    "In just 10 years (1930-1940), America created in the USSR chemical, aviation, electrical, oil, mining, coal, metallurgical and other industries,"
    it is the Russian Empire, and then the USSR created the chemical, aviation and other types of industry in the republics of the USSR, the Americans fulfilled the paid contracts, were not engaged in charity and did not satisfy the creative itch.
    Just 1929 ... 1939 - the Great Depression, while 1929 ... 1933 its most acute phase; they have been fighting for markets since the beginning of time, and here is such a gift; in your interpretation it sounds like a noble impulse of the fraternal people, and in reality, the jerks of the fleeing predator are not the last.

    Once again, the American contribution to the industry of the USSR is great; but waving like this, "America created ..." it’s better to watch out. Electrical engineering and instrumentation are based on German, French and German chemistry, French and English mechanics.
    The aircraft industry in Russia was created in 1908 ... 1919, and, before the disaster, it worked just like the aircraft building industry, including and in the 30s.

    1. Parsec April 19 2020 22: 01 New
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      Table from the "History of the domestic aircraft industry. Serial aircraft construction 1910-2010." Edited by D.A.Sobolev, M., Rusavia, 2011
  • Eug
    Eug April 19 2020 22: 26 New
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    It is a pity, not a single type of VNEU is considered from the point of view of secrecy. As for me, the most promising installation is with lithium-ion batteries, but this is, to put it mildly, a side view. It seems like this technology was worked out on Losharik ...
  • Вольтер April 19 2020 22: 53 New
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    To comment on the article’s information, it would be nice to know what didn’t work with our Lada project. The project itself, according to Rubin’s idea, was not bad and satisfied the request of the Navy at that time (beginning of zero). but I heard that it’s a snag with VNEU.
  • Boa kaa April 19 2020 23: 17 New
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    The author missed a message about the development and receipt in 2019 of a plant that receives highly purified hydrogen directly on board a submarine from a single OTTO-2 fuel. I will repeat my post on April 7, 2020 18:46

    "... adversaries from Naval gruop they designed a VNEU of the 2nd level, receiving highly purified hydrogen on board from reforming the single fuel OTTO-2. Oxygen is cryogenic outside the solid casing, fuel cells and at the outlet are water, carbon dioxide and electricity. The installation compartment is 8 m long. It can be installed on newly built and modernized boats. And they did it back in 2019, and crowed only now. Looks like they’ve worked and are confident in their product. Ours did not finish this direction ... It's a pity.
    The Naval Group has developed the FC2G AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion Fuel Cell 2nd Generation) 2nd Generation Non-Volatile Fuel Cell. AIP FC2G is an additional module to the main power plant of the submarine and is able to increase the autonomy of the submarine 3-4 times.
    https://naukatehnika.com/vozduhonezavisimaya-energeticheskaya-ustanovka.html
    1. SVD68 April 20 2020 12: 51 New
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      Quote: BoA KAA
      adversaries from Naval Gruop have engineered a level 2 VNEU, which receives highly purified hydrogen on board from reforming a single fuel, OTTO-2.

      What kind of power?
      1. Boa kaa April 20 2020 13: 33 New
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        Unfortunately, the power of the installation is not indicated in the article. But the fact that the French made us and the Americans, who also dealt with this problem, says a lot!
    2. d4rkmesa April 20 2020 13: 05 New
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      It occupies a whole submarine compartment. Maybe that's why the new NAPL from NG will be more than 2000 tons of oil and gas.
  • nikant April 20 2020 03: 18 New
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    I am surprised to all of you: I just want to cry! Any fish, including marine, rots from the head. The problems that exist literally in all directions can be solved simply and efficiently: increase the salaries of all specialists and developers at least twice, university students and technical universities - 3-5 times. Remove all patr-r-riots from the leadership of the ministries, the relevant areas and projects that deliberately and subtly ruin everything: all sorts of Chubais, Rogozins ... Stop all creeps on cunning associations like Mig and Sukhoi ... Examples are the sea. Enter the death penalty for proven treason ... Where can I get the money? Do not tell my slippers: there are just a lot of them! To return all the money stolen from the people, to put in place all the goons of congregations of different levels, etc. etc.
    As long as the circle, the oligarchs, officials continue to cynically rob Russia and lower the people, it will only get worse.
    And so all these moans about the problems in any technical direction, down the drain. What is the espionage somewhere? Find and shoot your corrupt mongrels! It will become easier to breathe immediately! Weak? Weak - the gut is thin!
  • d4rkmesa April 20 2020 12: 54 New
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    Interesting article, plus. However, I do not quite agree with the conclusion - now the trend of promising developments for NAPL is mainly in the direction of energy storage, while the Japanese and Koreans are ahead of everyone here. The main question is whether such a low-power and, at the same time, occupying a significant place VNEU is needed? Arguments for VNEU - the absence in Russia of a virtually complete production cycle of powerful lithium batteries. Judging by the snippets of information that are available, attempts to develop VNEU meet with great difficulties plus ambitions - it is unlikely to be content with a speed of 2 knots of the Navy. Stirling cannot be used - as far as I remember, it is patented by the Swedes. I would like to have a nuclear submarine comparable with the French nuclear submarines in terms of capabilities, but, as usual, desires and opportunities are not the same thing.
    1. agond April 20 2020 13: 29 New
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      Quote: d4rkmesa
      Stirling cannot be used - as far as I remember, it is patented by the Swedes

      In military affairs, they do not look at patents. Stirling itself is not an insurmountable obstacle; all issues are related to the heat source.
  • Svetlana April 20 2020 14: 12 New
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    Quote: BREAKTHROUGH READY
    The great comrade Stalin did not steal anything! Under his leadership, the Soviet Union openly purchased equipment, licenses, and often entire factories.

    At the personal instruction of Comrade Stalin, Tupolev, with his comrades-in-arms, copied the captured American “Flying Fortresses” and created the TU-4 bomber.
    I must say that they were not quite trophy, but that's another story.
  • Kostadinov April 27 2020 16: 36 New
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    In just 10 years (1930-1940), America created in the USSR chemical, aviation, electrical, oil, mining, coal, metallurgical and other industries,

    The USSR created everything listed with its own money, prepared its personnel and did a lot without import. America did not create anything and did not want to create in the USSR. On the contrary, Soviet orders saved the American and European industry during the global crisis.
  • Kostadinov April 27 2020 16: 53 New
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    Quote: Nikolai-1970
    This is true. It is believed that the success of Eun in rocket science and nuclear weapons, thanks to those who left.
    For example, the "dumbbell" or "peanut" (in the USA) scheme appeared in him after 8 years, from the beginning of work.
    Unas around 1983. So the “deaf” spoke.
    Although, I admit that Un calls out. And this is a fake.

    The same thing was said about the USSR and then about China. In the US, tried "atomic" spies.
    Well, let's say that this is true - someone entered the DPRK and said something to them. But for rocket science and nuclear weapons it is necessary to create another industry at a different qualitative level. Without them, if you bring Werner von Braun with his team, you will remain only drawings and diagrams. Kurt Tank worked in Argentina, leading engineers from Peeenemuende in Libya, and Willy Messerschmit worked somewhere, but nothing came of it.
  • Kostadinov April 27 2020 17: 04 New
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    Quote: agond
    However, Tupolev objected, but Stalin rejected his opinion, and by and large the engineers are born not for blind copying someone else's, but for the manifestation of their own, but unfortunately our inventors can go around for years trying to slip their inventions under closed doors

    Stalin is the last person in the world who wanted blind copying from his engineers.
    Tu-4 couldn’t copy the same thing blindly - they have Soviet engines. And they wanted, as accurately as possible, to copy the B-29 - the first to study its capabilities and the second for the maximum difficulty in US air defense.
    1. agond 5 May 2020 13: 34 New
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      And why not copy if if there is an understanding that the thing turned out to be successful, there is an understanding why it was made just like that and not otherwise.