In China, tested the new machine QBZ-191 caliber 5,8 × 42 mm

China has tested the latest QBZ-191 assault rifle with a caliber of 5,8 × 42 mm, which in the future will have to replace the QBZ-95 assault rifle in service with the PLA. According to CCTV, testing was held at the research institute armory Industry No. 208 of Norinco Corporation.

Norinco Corporation has tested the new 191 × 5,8 mm caliber QBZ-42 assault rifle. The machine was created according to the classical scheme, in contrast to the PLA-armed QBZ-95 machine, created according to the bullpup scheme.

Previously reported, the new machine is created in three versions, equipped with different trunks. The version with a shortened barrel length of 10,5 inches (267 mm) will receive the designation PDW and will be used by the crews of military vehicles and other equipment. The infantry will receive a machine with a barrel length of 14,5 inches (368 mm). In the third version, an elongated heavy barrel will be installed, which will turn the machine into a weapon intended for arming snipers in the compartment, providing shooters with confident defeat of targets at a distance of up to 600 meters. At the same time, the effective firing range of the PDW version is estimated at 300 meters, a standard machine gun - 400 meters. The stated rate of fire at 750 rounds per minute.

Shock-free automation works by removing powder gases from the bore with a short piston stroke. The shutter is rotary. USM provides single and automatic fire, stores are used from QBZ-95. The weapon is equipped with a long picatinny rail on top of an aluminum receiver and forearm, a folding front sight and a plastic butt adjustable in length (folding is not provided).

The fact that the PLA intends to seek a replacement for the QBZ-95 assault rifle in service became known back in 2017. In 2019, at the military parade in Beijing on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the PRC, the Chinese military first appeared in front of the public with a new classic QBZ-191 assault rifle.

Comments

[bars1]

Looks like lousy QBZ-95 turned out ...

[Kalmar]

Bullpup is a specific thing. With the classic layout is still easier.

[Atlant-1164]

why in subtitles there is no reference to Sohu Edition?)

[V.I.P.]

They look at the Americans and do the same (stealth airplanes, attack drones, air defense / missile defense ships, a javelin analogue, etc.).
The Americans announced a tender for NGSW to replace the M4 (and M16) rifle and the M249 light machine gun with others, in caliber 6,8 mm. The sleeve of the new cartridge is planned to be made without the use of brass (a special composition of steel or a special polymer).
The new weapons will be more accurate, and the new cartridge will allow soldiers to pierce all existing body armor today, but also those that will appear in the next 25 years. New weapons should quickly hit targets the size of a man at a distance of 600 m or more, while maintaining the ability to engage in close combat. These are their requirements)) ....
The testing of prototypes in the troops is planned to begin by 2021, so that by 2023 to begin the rearmament of infantry units. The winner company will receive an order for the manufacture of 250 thousand small arms and 150 million cartridges for them.
China decided to keep up with the capabilities of small arms and decided to change for a new one, but unlike the Russian Federation it also changes the caliber .....

[YOUR]

What are you talking about? What caliber do the Chinese change? The Chinese developed the cartridge 5.8 * 42 in the 80s. It was adopted in 1987. In theory, it should exceed the American 5.56 * 45 and the Soviet 5.45 * 39. They succeeded or not, but the developers received congratulations from the Politburo for breaking the paper dragon.
I can not vouch for accuracy, but the first submachine gun for this cartridge was QBZ-03, did not receive distribution like QBZ-95. More machine guns for this cartridge are QJY 88 and QBB-95. The QBB-95 is somehow strangely similar to the French FAMAS, but this is only the appearance.

[sanik2020]

Everyone has a tendency to increase the caliber, but no one knows which is better.
Better in slaughter, in stopping action, in stability, in armor penetration.
But outwardly and in terms of characteristics, it is more reminiscent of an army weapon rather than a police one, for a city.

[faterdom]

All the same "Kalash". True, the quality of those Kalash that I saw in the early 90s in Tajikistan was, to put it mildly .... something else. I hope that since then they have advanced technologically, otherwise the caliber does not play here - unreliable rubbish cannot be a weapon of serious armies.

[Kalmar]

Quote: faterdom

All the same "Kalash"

A short piston stroke and shockless automation are declared. So, either not "Kalash", or not quite "Kalash".

Quote: faterdom

I hope that since then they have technologically advanced

They say that Norinco now makes quite a good weapon.

[John22]

That is the question. Automation declared shockless, and the machine shakes shamelessly. the clip is clearly visible.

[Kalmar]

Quote: John22

That is the question. Automation declared shockless, and the machine shakes shamelessly. the clip is clearly visible.

As if Newton’s third law even acts on the most unstressed schemes. It will always shake, and how much - it should be evaluated by accuracy, and not by video.

[Yrec]

Now the cartridge is more interesting 5,8x42, and not an automatic machine.

[venik]

Quote: Yrec

Now the cartridge is more interesting 5,8x42, and not an automatic machine.

=======
Another thing is funny: "....intended for armament snipers in the compartment, providing shooters a confident defeat of targets at a distance to 600 meters. At the same time, the effective firing range of the PDW version is estimated at 300 meters, standard automatic machine - 400 meters.
..."
Something will be not enough for the cartridge 5,8x42 .... Even the AK-74 with the cartridge 5,45 x 39 and something like that more serious looks!

[Kalmar]

Quote: venik

Something will not be enough for a 5,8x42 cartridge .... Even an AK-74 with a 5,45 x 39 cartridge and it looks somehow more serious!

Expected:

The infantry will receive a machine with a barrel length of 14,5 inches (368 mm)

Those. This is not an analogue of the AK-74, but of something shorter: our AK-105 or Amer’s M4.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Shockless automation
How's that?
And I wonder why 5.8 mm? Are you in a hurry to stake out a new caliber, from which then they will offer the rest to dance?

[Kalmar]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Shockless automation
How's that?

Probably, it means that in the extreme rear position the bolt frame does not hit the rear liner of the receiver.

[Speedy]

5.8 x 42 they appeared in the last century. Not a new cartridge, to say the least. And in general, the answer is 5,56 and 5,45. The sleeve is just intermediate between 39 and 45 ...

[ssergey1978]

Perhaps they are following in the footsteps of the USSR, which traditionally used non-standard cartridges

[Kalmar]

Quote: ssergey1978

Perhaps they are following in the footsteps of the USSR, which traditionally used non-standard cartridges

And what are the "standard" ones? And who used them? In the West, some kind of standardization appeared with the formation of NATO: there they began to bring the range of army ammunition to a common denominator. And before that, everyone sculpted something of their own.

[ssergey1978]

The Soviet Union sought to use ammunition that no one else used, is that clear?

[Kalmar]

Quote: ssergey1978

The Soviet Union sought to use ammunition that no one else used, is that clear?

Yes, somehow not really. Can you give examples?

And then after all, before the advent of NATO, all countries used their cartridges, which were not in use in other armies. Look at least at WWII rifle ammunition. Only 9x19 was conditionally standard, and that was only within Europe: the Americans respected their .45 ACP, the Japanese respected 8x22, and so on.

[ssergey1978]

5.45х39, 5.45х18, 9х18пмм, 9х18, 7.62х39, 12.7х108, 14.5х114 the whole nomenclature duplicates foreign analogues but the geometric ones are different in art too.

[Kalmar]

Strange selection: it is not clear whom they duplicate. And then, we understand that the caliber (like the diameter of a bullet) is only a small part of the story: if the cartridge different geometric, then this is a completely different cartridge.

[Pavel57]

I wonder how they chose 5,8?

[dzvero]

I wonder how the aluminum receiver will behave.

[rotmistr60]

caliber 5,8 × 42 mm

Our gunsmiths also talked about caliber 5,8, citing good ballistic characteristics. But characteristics are characteristics, and restructuring production to a new caliber by creating a new weapon requires not only time, but also money.

[Peter is not the first]

That's what life-giving money is doing with the Chinese military, they can even develop new calibers and weapons for them with the prospect of adopting it.

[Boratsagdiev]

at 6.3 and the next ones also have a long look.
The Chinese were apparently the first to decide on a trial.
The old "Five" is not enough for many tasks.

[NEOZ]

Quote: BoratSagdiev

The old "Five" is not enough for many tasks.

for which for example?

[Boratsagdiev]

You certainly do not know ...
and how do 5.45 (5.56) differ from 7.62 except for the caliber ...

[NEOZ]

Quote: BoratSagdiev

You certainly do not know ...

and you?

[Boratsagdiev]

we are aware it is strange that you are not

[JonnyT]

I wonder if this news strained the American manufacturers of body armor?

[bars1]

Minimum as 25 years ago strained

[Old partisan]

In quality, how is the same Chinese AKM for 500 shots?

[NEOZ]

Quote: Old partisan

Chinese AKM for 500 shots?

700-1000 .... the barrel (metal) is the same, but the caliber is less :)))))))))))))

[ssergey1978]

You are fundamentally wrong, less caliber, higher pressure, higher bullet speed, more barrel wear.

[ssergey1978]

Do you think Chinese AK 500 shots? The Chinese shooter sells well in the US market, and this is a litmus test of quality.

[NEOZ]

Quote: ssergey1978

You are fundamentally wrong

I do not exclude ...

Quote: ssergey1978

The Chinese shooter sells well in the US market, and this is a litmus test of quality.

by the way, I often hear about the "quality" of the Chinese AK .... leaves much to be desired ...

[ssergey1978]

Infa is 50 years old

[good]

They didn’t learn how to make AKs, and on the contrary, the quality fell when they started to rivet their gunner.

[ssergey1978]

Nonsense. AK is well sold in the United States, but they do not take non-liquid.

[good]

AK there are Bulgarian in price and not Chinese :)

[ssergey1978]

Well of course one Arsenal and buy

[good]

There are definitely no lines for the Chinese. And in general, AR is bought much more than all Kalash combined.

[ssergey1978]

It’s ridiculous. Where does such knowledge come from?

[good]

You wrote about the states. There AR-like buy much more than AK clones. No options. :)

[ssergey1978]

Strange conversation. What do you want to say that AR is better than AK? The conversation began that Norinko has high-quality products, including AK.

[good]

What I wanted to write, I already wrote above.
The Chinese AK-47 clones, the so-called TYPE56, were never good copies and they didn’t get any better after the Chinese army was rearmed with their rifle in the eighties.
European clones are better, any (Bulgarians, Hungarians, Germans).
Although the Chinese clones and the clones collected on the Chinese ZCH are great, there is nothing to compare with. Even "constructors" from Soviet / Russian samples are almost all with left-hand boxes, because they cannot be sold there, and therefore they are imported in sawn form as spare parts.
Naturally, they buy everything there in a row, not everyone is ready to pay large sums for good ones, and even more so for authentic copies, not everyone is aware of the nuances and does not fight them.

And AR systems there are more popular in the civilian market, its closer to the body, and the choice is greater and the possibilities for customization are endless.

A better AK or AR depends on the tasks.
As for me, for war, and especially for our climatic conditions, Kalashnikov is beyond competition. And the AK-12 is a great war machine.
AR-like, including HK hybrids like the HK require more operator attention and are expensive.
The Chinese QBZ-191 is closest to the HK 416, but something is simplified in favor of reliability and this is good, while some design nuances are the same with the same minuses. And it is unlikely that it is cheaper than their bulpap, but it will be better anyway, while with the same ammunition (shops and ammunition), you will not have to change everything in one fell swoop, but rearmament will not work cheap anyway.
Wanted and can - their business.

[Mavrikiy]

Xiang Xiang Xiang, and returned to the classics.

The machine was created according to the classical scheme, unlike the PLA-armed QBZ-95 machine, created according to the bullpup scheme.

[Zaurbek]

Is Bulpap all? Has fashion gone?

[Mountain shooter]

I watched the film ... When shooting in bursts, it shakes like a jackhammer ... IMHO, the AK-12 is much better ...

[Operator]

Golem balanced automation copied from AEK, and the caliber of 5,8x42 mm is no longer kosher - 6,8x45 mm are used in the NGSW contest.

[prodi]

it seems you’re right about balanced automation, but what can be won by increasing the diameter to 5.8 (6.8 doesn’t look at all kosher)

[Operator]

5,8 (unlike 6,8) will not break through ESAPI, then why is it needed?

[prodi]

why not break? Because of speed, strength or weight (bullet)?

[Operator]

The Americans determined by typing the parameters of a caliber bullet for breaking ESAPI at a distance of 100 meters - a steel core, 9 grams, 900 m / s. To break through 300 meters, a tungsten alloy core is required.

A 5,8 mm bullet will weigh one third less.

[prodi]

if the 5.45x39 bullet (reduced cartridge) has a weight of 5g (with the same length as the standard 3.4g), and 9x39 weighs 16g with a length of 36-41mm, then what prevents to extend the 5.45 bullet (and increase weight) in a longer sleeve 42mm ?

[Operator]

If you increase the size of the bullet, then the volume / weight of the powder inside the sleeve will decrease, while 3 additional mm lengths will not solve the problem. Plus, the pressure in the small-caliber barrel will increase not childishly compared to the large caliber of 6,8 mm.

[prodi]

the question is not 3mm in length, but in all 15! Well, something they played there with gunpowder, somewhere with liveliness, but for the current, massive, curved and blind-eyed user, 200m looks more than a decent range for a given slaughter

[Operator]

The Chinese have a 42 mm shell, and if it is increased by another 15 mm with a corresponding weight of gunpowder, then the small-caliber barrel will break when fired.

TTT on infantry automatic small arms remained unchanged - 300 meters of fire range.

[prodi]

in view of the onset of the "X" hour (20:00) and the glasses taken on my chest, I almost wanted to give up, but with the edge of a blurred consciousness I remembered the mediocre crimped cartridge case 5.45x39 (the Chinese comes in general with a margin, not to mention 5.56x45 )

[Operator]

Continue tomorrow after enlightenment of consciousness

[John22]

And where did you read about the balanced automation of the Chinese model?

[prodi]

yes nowhere: by "shockless automation", increased rate of fire, coupled with a picture

[Kalmar]

Outwardly, for some reason, it resembles MP-5 (the back of the receiver), and internally - HK-416 or something similar. Well and yes, no balanced automation is visible here.

[prodi]

oh well, and the thickened right side with a spring?

[Kalmar]

Quote: prodi

oh well, and the thickened right side with a spring?

This is a short stroke gas piston like this: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019242266. It has its own return spring.

[Undecim]

I am ready to make a bet - tomorrow, maximum the day after tomorrow, in the section "Weapons" the same article will be published, uncooked by verbiage, in the form of Ryabov's article.

[bang]

Realized in China, show-off show-offs (bullpup), and the classic drives. )

[The guard]

Well, the Chinese, let's see .. How are they against Kalash!

[beeper]

He suddenly appeared and delighted in the Chinese video our unfolded red USSR flag with a sickle and a hammer, it already got warm in my heart ...

And with the QBZ-191 submachine gun, I see, the Chinese comrades did not come up with anything new, only, having played enough with the "bullpup", they tried more or less amicably to "cross" (constructively familiar to the soldiers of the multimillion PLA and technologically mastered by the Chinese industry) reliable locking of the Soviet steel Kalasha with the layout of the American "luminous" arch through a gas piston with a short stroke.
The place of riveting of the steel "Kalashnikov" insert to the aluminum "aper" is clearly visible, and the detailing on the monitor of the working computer of the Chinese gunsmith shows the obvious "articulation" of the components of the Chinese "wunderwaffe"!

"Impactlessness", apparently, was achieved by the "AR" recoil damper (with a long "soft" spring at the base of the non-folding buttstock) and a decrease in the energy of the recoiling bolt carrier with the bolt due to the placement of the gas chamber almost at the muzzle of the barrel (and, accordingly, lower pressure discharged powder gases).
So the Kalashnikov competitor in the competition, in Bulkin's machine gun (or was Dementyev's machine gun such a scrupulous, straightforward, "dude in dummy", "energy balance", because I am writing from memory?), It was (with its best accuracy of automatic fire) -the bolt carrier came to the extreme rear position with almost zero speed (and not "with a shock margin" of 5m / s, as in the AK), but this negatively affected the reliability of the automation in conditions of pollution and the competitive fate of the sample ...

In principle, one way or another, but the Chinese gunsmiths (unlike those limited by stereotypes of thinking or unwillingness to change the "rolled production", the "enhancers" of the AK-74 in the quasi "modern" obsolete AK-12, alas!) Correctly caught the trend ( associated with the saturation of the modern army with a mass of sighting-optical "gadgets" ....) the rearrangement of the modern "shooter" in the function monolithic coupled with a receiver the upper universal mount (now it is a "mega-ribbed" Picatinny rail, but God knows what kind of universal mount there will be ?!) of interchangeable sighting devices.
And as his Author, PI Orlov wrote in my favorite "Handbook of a mechanical engineer".

Wenig erfingen, mehr konstruiert! - Less invent, more design!

exactly the same the Chinese did, in vain they were not original, creating their strong middle peasant in the "classic" configuration "NEBull-Pop".
And how this "unstressed" machine gun will show itself in operation, I think, the Military Review will inform us more than once ?!

[good]

The AK-12 delivered to the troops for war is 150 percent fit.
Cheap, reliable and kills well.
The 5.45x39 ammunition has also not yet exhausted itself for its tasks.
MO did the right thing. There is no need for the army to have an expensive machine gun. Now hang what you want without any modifications, the forend of the trunk does not apply. bayonet DTC quickly change to PBS if necessary, and the DTC works and not for the show. Accuracy and the AK-12 abound. With domestic hunting ammunition, it also fits 25mm per 100m, and army ammunition has a priority for penetration and with them it fits into the MO requirements.
Great working machine.

The implementation of automation in the Chinese as in HK, only the cocking handle seems to be attached directly.
And "unstressed" can even be realized with a Kalash setting, only there is little sense from this.
The pieces of iron are straggling fast anyway, and the energy of the shot does not go anywhere even if the energy of the moving parts is significantly absorbed when moving backward, the pieces of iron are straggling fast anyway and then move forward and push the heavier cartridge. And army ammunition with decent energy.

Yes, well done, the bucks swelled inadvertently in the development and development of the production of expensive automation, and they also need to rivet a lot of them, and be able to rivet if something happens. Okay, even though the ammunition was left from the shops of his bulpap.
They will try to find sales on the side so that this huge production is somehow loaded after they provide themselves. Most likely, versions for other patrons will appear soon, including NATO ones.

[notingem]

Is this product interesting if it falls into the swamp it will shoot or not? Or this test will be after adoption

[good]

If you believe the vidos at the factory, they test in a dust chamber and in a water flowing with sand.
But they didn’t throw it into the sand on the video and didn’t see it frozen. But such constructions do not like frosts, everything freezes.