We will “soon” again build new medium transport aircraft

We will “soon” again build new medium transport aircraft

Many media outlets not only in Russia, but also in the USA and Europe have recently cautiously reported that they have finally approved the concept of a new medium military transport aircraft to replace the An-12.


"The decision on the concept of a medium military transport aircraft has actually been made. It is necessary to complete the necessary documents," RIA reported News according to an unnamed source.

Indeed, the problem of aging the BTA fleet is very acute. Yes, and the aircraft themselves are outdated both morally and physically. An-12 is the brainchild of the distant 50s of the last century. Let me remind you that the first flight of the An-12 was in 1957! This aircraft is the only aircraft in the niche of medium-sized transport aircraft.

It is clear that the delay in the final decision of the Moscow Region is caused in many respects by the competition between the two firms - Ilyushin and Tupolev. Both design bureaus have very clear concepts for the new aircraft. Projects have been developed for a long time and were phased out for economic reasons.

It would seem that it is easier to give both companies the opportunity to develop their own aircraft, and then compare the results. Indeed, this is how the best Soviet cars were created aviation. Conversations at the idea level can be continued indefinitely. But the finished product, built taking into account all the "pitfalls" that exist in the manufacturing sector, will give the customer the opportunity to compare real cars and order the best.

But the fact of the matter is that today we live in a new world. A world where everything is mixed up. Both firms are part of one corporation - UAC. That is, in fact, the cost of creating a new aircraft is paid by one center. And two parts of one corporation are invited to compete. That's where the "mine" is laid.

Remember last year’s winning reports? “In September 2019, the design bureau will be finally determined, which will create an average military transport aircraft by order of the Russian Ministry of Defense.” How much material was then on this issue. How many dreams about the timing of the project. So, what is next?

And then there was a meeting of the UAC scientific and technical council at the end of September 2019. Leading specialists of the United Aircraft Corporation discussed the Ilyushin and Tupolev projects. Result? Won ... no one. Both projects were “raw” and needed improvement. The decision was postponed to the end of November.

Realizing that customers wouldn’t just keep up with the UAC, in December, CEO Yuri Slyusar announced in an interview with the same news agency about two options for the car of the future. Sketch designs of aircraft were created and, supposedly, clear requirements for future aircraft were defined.

It would seem that you still need the UAC? "The goals are set, the tasks are set, for work, comrades!" But something went wrong again. The corporation again "pulls the rubber." Mid April 2020 “It is necessary to complete the necessary documents ...”. How long does it take? Year? Two? Three?

It is clear that there is no other way besides creating your own SIDS. “Friendship, brotherhood of nations, international cooperation” and so on, for us, the stage has already been passed. This position is too expensive for us. In key issues, Russia should rely on its own developments.

Use the scientific and achievements of other countries? Yes! To buy ready-made promising technologies? Yes! To buy licenses and production technologies of some units in order to develop their own production in the future? Yes! But all this should lead to the development of our own industries. own design and engineering, own economy, in the end.

I don’t know which machines today are considered by experts as promising, basic. Most likely we are talking about the IL-276 and Tu-330. At least, it seems to me that these machines will be the basis.

If the competition within one corporation does not look somewhat typical, then the creation of a new UAC unit that will unite the designers of Ilyushin and Tupolev into a single team seems logical. A company, even if it’s temporary, created to solve a specific problem, uniting the best forces of the industry, will quickly solve the problem.

The country needs an average transport plane! The army needs an average transport plane! Moreover, he needs "just yesterday." So, the KLA will receive funding. So, if the need arises, new plants will be built.

Today the fleet of our transporters of all classes is almost twice as inferior to the American one! Something about 250 cars against more than 400 American. For our territories it is practically nothing.

Yes, they lost the Soviet backlog in the person of Antonov. But it's time to create your own, Russian.
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  1. Vladimir_2U April 14 2020 16: 58 New
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    Something about 250 cars against more than 400 American
    Well, the country is already several times inferior to the United States, even simply in terms of population.
    But it's time to create your own, Russian.
    It's hard to argue.
    1. antivirus April 14 2020 18: 06 New
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      Need more UAC? "The goals are set, the tasks are set, for work, comrades!" But something went wrong again. The corporation again "pulls the rubber."

      --a just ask the KLA for a delay of time?
      or the "customers" did not define the ToR (and the "what you please" project)?
  2. Grandfather April 14 2020 16: 58 New
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    Yes, they lost the Soviet backlog in the person of Antonov. But it’s time to create my own, Russian.
    For too long, Russia has been living on the Soviet backlog, something that “effective managers” can do no damn. praise the Union, left a lot, but not that would be in ..pope.
    1. Svarog April 14 2020 17: 05 New
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      Quote: Dead Day
      praise the Union, left a lot, but not that would be in ..pope.

      Even despite the fact that we live completely on the backlog of the USSR and that we are in opera .. even despite the fact that we ourselves pay for housing and communal services, we buy apartments, we pay for treatment, we take children to kindergarten for a fee, we pay for roads, etc. .. even in spite of all this in opera .. How is it possible, the USSR was almost free and the second economy, we had half the world on our neck and our own citizens were socially protected .. and now, all at our expense, but for some reason in ope ..
      1. marchcat April 14 2020 17: 14 New
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        And why be surprised, most officials look strictly west. They are not up to mother Russia!
      2. Mikhail m April 14 2020 19: 40 New
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        Quote: Svarog
        How is this possible, the USSR almost everything was free and were the second economy

        And the oligarchs in the USSR were? Because everything was almost free, because the funds were distributed much more evenly.
        1. EvilLion April 15 2020 09: 02 New
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          What is the truth? And you are aware that in the USSR the level of subsidies for Russophobic Balts could reach 900-1000 p. per year per person? Well, evenly, the RSFSR should be robbed so that even the Negro lives well in the Baltic states. I suspect that is precisely why the Union was allowed to disintegrate, because smart people understood that this system, which had developed after Stalin's death, could not be broken without blood. “Robbed” Georgians, when the Union collapsed, the rails were dismantled so that Russian drunks could not rob them and take them out. What is characteristic, the benefits of civilization in Georgia came to an end already in 1992.
          1. IC
            IC April 16 2020 12: 00 New
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            Apples and uncle in Kiev.
      3. EvilLion April 15 2020 08: 58 New
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        I don’t know how this is possible. Probably because the trip to the Soviet dentist was a natural quest to complete, but there was nothing in the shops. There was GDP, but no diaper. Indeed, as possible.
        1. Campanella April 19 2020 00: 47 New
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          Stubborn you lord!
          And you do not know that an Austrian dentist can cure you not a patient, but a healthy tooth?
          Quest in your brass head! This is obvious, as is the absence or unwillingness to see real facts and independently analyze them, and not to give out propaganda husk here!
    2. Vladimir_2U April 14 2020 17: 16 New
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      Quote: Dead Day
      For too long, Russia has lived in the Soviet reserve
      Yes, thanks to this backlog, it seems only alive, although from the zero years all the same, the slide stopped, it seems.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. major147 April 14 2020 20: 27 New
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        Quote: Wasilii
        Yes already in it, in darling, to the ears.

        Yes, you just have never been in it, that's why you say it.
        1. 2 Level Advisor April 14 2020 20: 41 New
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          yes, let's compare, as always, for example, with Sudan .. Then we are all in chocolate ..
          1. major147 April 14 2020 20: 52 New
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            Quote: 2 level advisor
            yes, let's compare, as always, for example, with Sudan .. Then we are all in chocolate ..

            Do not need Sudan and Kampuchea. You just need to remember the 90s. Do you remember or tell me on a personal example?
            1. Kronos April 14 2020 22: 07 New
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              Since 90 20 has passed all will remember them?
              1. awdrgy April 14 2020 22: 26 New
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                Necessarily and most importantly, who, when, when at whose expense and with what consequences personally and in general
              2. major147 April 15 2020 08: 55 New
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                Who survived this, he will never forget. And whoever does not want to remember this has nothing to compare with. “He who does not remember his past has no future” (c)
            2. victor50 April 15 2020 06: 57 New
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              Quote: major147
              You just need to remember the 90s.

              What for? You can still suggest the 20s, 41. But I want to recall the 70s, the beginning of the 80s. And I want to recall sweet promises starting in 2000. And ask: "Well, where? And until?"
              1. major147 April 15 2020 08: 56 New
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                Quote: victor50
                And I want to recall sweet promises starting in 2000. And ask: "Well, where? And until?"

                But do not want to recall the end of the 80s, where did everything actually come from?
                1. 2 Level Advisor April 15 2020 13: 08 New
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                  and what has changed in the development of the country since the 90s? as there was a commodity economy, it remained the same, oil fell-all-a catastrophe in the economy was outlined for some reason in the commodity countries right there. What has changed since the 90s? tuned roads and machinery and equipment, foreign electronics bought? do you measure the success of economic development?

                  Yes, oil will drop to 5 bucks, as in the 90s and without the National Welfare Fund, the economy will immediately, the 90s will come right away, so what is the difference between the economy and the accumulated “pillow” from that time? Is this development in 20 years? get a "financial pillow" to protect against falling oil prices?

                  There were in the history of raw superdezhavi-the Spanish Empire, Argentina, one of the richest in the world then. They had roads, all kinds of high bugs among citizens .. and where are they now compared to competitors?
                  1. major147 April 15 2020 16: 03 New
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                    Quote: 2 level advisor
                    There were in the history of raw superdezhavi-the Spanish Empire, Argentina, one of the richest in the world then. They had roads, all kinds of high bugs among citizens .. and where are they now compared to competitors?

                    You are somehow drawn to the heights, and you go down to earth. People in the 90s thought about how to feed themselves, but now they built houses, bought cars, go to foreign resorts not oligarchs as in the 90s, but ordinary engineers living around me, not some kind of "average" ones, but specific ones here behind the fence. And they are not working at Gazprom, but at Rostselmash.
                    Of course I would like to live better, have a larger pension and salary, but it’s cool to scold the government absolutely not having anything to do with the problems of Russia as a whole. "Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side." Why don’t you personally go to rule the country, since you know so well how to do this?
                2. victor50 April 15 2020 14: 14 New
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                  Quote: major147
                  But do not want to recall the end of the 80s, where did everything actually come from?

                  Yeah! Now it’s fashionable to nod to 1917. But let's not be so commonplace. All the fault of 1236. laughing
                  1. major147 April 15 2020 16: 05 New
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                    Quote: victor50
                    Quote: major147
                    But do not want to recall the end of the 80s, where did everything actually come from?

                    Yeah! Now it’s fashionable to nod to 1917. But let's not be so commonplace. All the fault of 1236. laughing

                    What do you dislike right now? So go and make everyone feel good. What to yoke about? There are plenty of critics to do.
                    1. victor50 April 15 2020 20: 09 New
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                      Quote: major147
                      There are plenty of critics to do.

                      Well yes. One you work. Others do nothing, they just bother you, hence the problems. laughing
                      Quote: major147
                      What do you dislike right now?

                      Now they don’t like people like you. Either liars, or wearing pink glasses, and trying to convince everyone that everything was fine, but everything was bad .. some galoshes and lines, etc.
                      1. major147 April 15 2020 22: 16 New
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                        Quote: victor50
                        Now they don’t like people like you.

                        So go, rule the country! And here we will listen about your "successes" ....
                      2. victor50 April 16 2020 08: 07 New
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                        Quote: major147
                        So go, rule the country! And here we will listen about your "successes".

                        Have you tried it yet? laughing Guru! laughing Yes, no. Just a listener .. lol I always did not understand why people like you are always trying to teach and point? How do you think you deserve such a right? The fact that you always support the existing government and everyone who is in favor, who has a higher position? We don’t know anything, we don’t want to know, therefore, what if it’s scary and to do something, it’s necessary to decide, but approving !? lol
                      3. major147 April 16 2020 14: 56 New
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                        [quote = victor50] [quote = major147] So go ahead, rule the country! And here we will listen about your "successes." [/ Quote]
                        Have you tried it yet? laughing Guru! laughing Yes, no. Just a listener .. lol I always did not understand why people like you are always trying to teach and point? How do you think you deserve such a right? The fact that you always support the existing government and everyone who is in favor, who has a higher position? We don’t know anything, we don’t want to know, therefore, what if it’s scary and to do something, it’s necessary to decide, but approving !? lol[/ quote
                        Well you! I do not teach you and do not tell you what to do! It’s just from your messages that you personally know how to do it right, so do it! I have not tried to rule the country (maximum factory of the "average hand") and therefore I do not criticize the government, because I do not know all the circumstances in which certain decisions are made. And your statements remind me of the joke that in Russia only 11 people do not know how to play football. Let’s say you’re a pilot, and I’m a driver, how can I criticize your actions, because this is nonsense, and since you criticize the government, it means that you have successfully led the state somewhere. Can I find out how?
                        Yes, I support the existing government, although I disagree with many. But this is the best power of those that were, although it is far from ideal. Why did you decide that someone better will come to Putin's place! Someone makes promises there, so the current ones also promise a lot of things. And if there is no difference, then why change one to the other! Or are you one of those who only want to remove Putin? So this "wind" is known from where it blows. Do not like Putin, do not vote for him, it does not matter whether he is "nullified" or not.
                      4. 2 Level Advisor April 17 2020 16: 33 New
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                        As for the next President .. He may be worse than Putin, or maybe better than Putin, I think this is unknown to you and me ..
                        You know, I'll use your logic a little.
                        By your logic and the President, elections are not needed, because about the decision and the person who has advanced, you can say in your words, “I don’t know all the circumstances under which certain decisions are made” .. well, how, people who never ruled the country can decide who is able to manage, and who is not .. Their opinion is nothing, they were not Presidents, is it so?
                      5. major147 April 17 2020 20: 00 New
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                        Quote: 2 level advisor
                        By your logic and the President, elections are not needed,
                        This is always a lottery. There is a question of trust, can - can not, will deceive - will not deceive. Here is the current one - deceived with retirement age. I would not promise not to raise it - I might have understood, but he promised, and this contradicts my understanding. But unfortunately there are no figures capable of replacing him, and he is across the throat to the West, so I support the current one.
                      6. 2 Level Advisor April 18 2020 23: 25 New
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                        Why aren’t you able to replace it?
                      7. 2 Level Advisor April 19 2020 09: 11 New
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                        I’m talking about the fact that when he came to him too, there wasn’t any experience working as President
                      8. major147 April 19 2020 10: 13 New
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                        Quote: 2 level advisor
                        I’m talking about the fact that when he came to him too, there wasn’t any experience working as President

                        On whom?
                      9. 2 Level Advisor April 19 2020 10: 15 New
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                        Why don’t you personally cope? he is also a man and when he came to steer even a small factory he did not manage to steer, so why can’t you cope, you have more experience ..
                      10. major147 April 19 2020 10: 37 New
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                        Quote: 2 level advisor
                        Why don’t you personally cope? he is also a man and when he came to steer even a small factory he did not manage to steer, so why can’t you cope, you have more experience ..

                        I had enough responsibility for my life, I did not run from it and was not afraid. This is a big burden even at my level, but at the level of the President it is not lifting for me. With my "inflamed" sense of responsibility in this dirty business, and politics is dirty business, I can’t say one thing and do another. And the "megalomania" is completely absent.
                      11. Elturisto April 20 2020 08: 32 New
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                        Well, stop fucking something ...
                      12. major147 April 20 2020 13: 01 New
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                        Quote: ElTuristo
                        Well, stop fucking something ...

                        Yes, finish ....
  • knn54 April 14 2020 17: 46 New
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    It is interesting how Boeing, Lockheed and others would perceive the creation in the USA of the "Office" such as the KLA or Helicopter ... the USA?
  • Oleg Zorin April 14 2020 17: 00 New
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    Taki yes ... but then
  • Thrifty April 14 2020 17: 08 New
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    Alas, with these people that the authorities have nothing sensible yet! 20 years of transfusion from empty to empty, promises, projects, presentations - and in fact, a complete lack of result! So, this issue will also be cheated for many years. ..
  • Black sniper April 14 2020 17: 10 New
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    If competition within one corporation does not look somewhat typical, then the creation of a new UAC unit that will unite the designers of Ilyushin and Tupolev into a single team seems logical.
    -----------------------------
    It is completely logical to unite collectives into some kind of IlTu or TuIl, why, like Krylov, "swan, cancer and pike" ???
    1. iouris April 14 2020 17: 21 New
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      Quote: Black Sniper
      creation of a new UAC unit that will unite the designers of Ilyushin and Tupolev

      There are no designers in these "KB". The above design bureaus exist only because some types of aircraft developed in Soviet times still fly.
      For aircraft design, software and computers developed in the USA are used.
    2. Peter is not the first April 14 2020 22: 31 New
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      If these IlTu or TuIL are created under the auspices of the FSB, such as sharashka, then it can be useful when everyone will be responsible for their area of ​​work, rather than trying to snatch a tidbit. But we do not already live in the late thirties and early forties of the last century, and therefore we must give money to both design bureaus and choose the best project based on the results of our work. Yes, it is more expensive and longer in time, and a lot is stolen, but this is the reality now.
      1. victor50 April 15 2020 07: 00 New
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        Quote: Peter is not the first
        will be created under the auspices of the FSB, such as sharashka,

        First you need to create a sharashka for this abbreviation
  • iouris April 14 2020 17: 16 New
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    I believe because you have an honest face.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Amateur April 14 2020 17: 22 New
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    It is clear that in many respects the delay in the final decision of the Moscow Region is caused in many respects by the competition between two firms - Ilyushin and Tupolev.

    Competition is when several manufacturers offer their products, and the customer chooses the best for himself. And when two competitors pour mud on each other, but at the same time they have nothing for their soul, then this is most likely “modern Russian democracy”.
    And I also recalled the saying of A. L. Mints, when he invited me to join the ABM alliance with him: "The main thing is to stake out a problem for yourself, and then we will figure out how to build a bridge - either far or wide."
    (G. Kisunko. "Confession of the General Designer")
  • Lopatov April 14 2020 17: 40 New
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    The corporation again "pulls the rubber."

    Money, dear, money.
    In the current crisis, there are clearly different priorities.
    1. novel66 April 14 2020 18: 55 New
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      there will be no decent army - and there will be no money ... nothing will happen ..
      1. Lopatov April 14 2020 18: 58 New
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        Quote: novel xnumx
        there will be no decent army - and there will be no money ... nothing will happen ..

        Now or in general?
        Now it is quite possible to postpone the dates for a year or two. In full, financing only the maintenance of the army and its combat training.
        1. novel66 April 14 2020 19: 01 New
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          somehow with this pandemic, everything is very ambiguous ....
  • Maks1995 April 14 2020 17: 45 New
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    250 cars against more than 400 American. - that's nothing.
    We have a similar proportion for fighters, and for helicopters it seems.
    What did you want? Money went to yachts and the Olympics, but you can’t take a lot from hard workers.
    And the population is 2.5-3 times smaller ....
    1. EvilLion April 15 2020 09: 05 New
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      Nothing that we have and the population is less than 50% of the American? At the same time, for some reason, there is money for the Olympics, at which Sochi is still making big money, because investments remained, and for airplanes. Necessary.
      1. Maks1995 April 15 2020 09: 19 New
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        This is just hurt. The population is less than 50%, and aircraft more than 50%.

        But the Olympics and the Navy’s World Cup are just how the new Navy ships have passed. Type Mistral and others.
  • viktor_ui April 14 2020 17: 46 New
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    By the centennial of the An-12, let everyone agree and complete it ... this will be epoch-making. Another confirmation that our design school in the hardest knockout - the patient is more likely dead than alive ... although the newest transport elephant (frankly shitty name for the celestial bird) and another similar verbal freak like (sorry that not a pug) is on its way - the rumor goes. Do we, in general, from scratch at least some heavy and medium-sized celestial machines are actually produced? Or are the USSR’s blanks being pulled out of the bins and aposly pulled by an owl on the globe, passing them off for new boards And with endless mudification per hour on a teaspoon? They correctly write that we are not the USSR an hour ... then why is there almost no international cooperation in this regard (with the Chinese this is an isolated case and we will also see what happens on the exhaust). We plan to apply the bioengineering achievements in terms of creating lines, contours, picking REALLY air vehicles from the 21st century (do not be lazy and see what has been sculpted for an hour at the level of existing production vehicles and prototypes being developed in the global aircraft industry). I have the impression of simulating running around on the spot (and maybe lying) in this sector of aviation ... and this is not just stagnation, it’s purely my opinion.
    1. EvilLion April 15 2020 09: 08 New
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      We actually do the IL-76. Yes, everything is bad there, the project is actually disrupted, it recently turned out that the plant was operating at a loss. But if you don’t know what’s going on at all, then you’d better be silent, and not hysterical, how bad everything is. Because even “bad” can be discussed only with those who are in the subject.
      1. viktor_ui April 15 2020 12: 59 New
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        Your IL-76 has a face from a distant 76 years ... I ran a pioneer ... re-read again, carefully, my post and catch the essence of the question I asked, you will remain silent and not ask questions because your desires do not coincide with the possibilities. Yes, about the topic ... my moles, both from Aeroflot, with a huge number of raids by non-standard measures-obscenities. That yourself, do not hysteria, at your leisure.
        1. EvilLion April 15 2020 13: 21 New
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          I would understand about the face-faces from the 76th, if the world was now something fundamentally better. But in the world since then, in general, the main change is not in the face-face, but in the addition of ACS.
          1. viktor_ui April 15 2020 13: 29 New
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            you just don’t see anything, don’t know ... or don’t want to see and know. You definitely do not need me to talk about ACS ... for in this field I have been working since the distant 87 years CONTINUOUS to this day. Once again, rummage around in the possibilities of bioengineering when designing aircraft really from the 21st century .. what the Americans, Italians, Yapes and other countries do, in which elements of the 6th technological structure are actually implemented. On what and with what does THEIR engineering corps work. Good luck.
            1. EvilLion April 15 2020 13: 37 New
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              And I'm a Roman couple then.

              What is their engineering building working on now and I can tell without Google. Over the next cut of some C-17. However, they do not even have orders for him.
              1. viktor_ui April 15 2020 13: 42 New
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                It’s like a papic Roman - a flag in your hands with pleasure ... YOU DO NOT know NICHEN and google will definitely not help you. Your bell tower is tall and brilliant wassat That, so for you to develop: ACS, ASODU, PSPNU - the words are synonyms for engineers from the USSR ... a daddy of Rome ... amused.
  • Andrei Nikolaevich April 14 2020 17: 51 New
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    In such matters it is only necessary to rely on one's capabilities. There can be no brothers or allies in this industry.
  • Kronos April 14 2020 18: 48 New
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    So, the KLA will receive funding. So, if the need arises, new plants will be built.
    These words are in doubt
  • novel66 April 14 2020 18: 48 New
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    horseradish replace "piece of wood" ...
  • Zaurbek April 14 2020 19: 05 New
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    And why was it all stop producing An12? His descendant is in full swing, the competitor C130 is also ...... or did you want to change to An70?
    1. Eug
      Eug April 14 2020 19: 46 New
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      And in China, the upgraded An-12 called the Y-8 flies very well, transporting 70% of NATO’s standard transport nomenclature.
  • avia12005 April 14 2020 19: 15 New
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    There will be no such plane. They will give money, but there will be no plane. Since May 8, 2019, the Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC United Aircraft Corporation Anatoly Eduardovich Serdyukov.
    1. kjhg April 14 2020 19: 49 New
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      Quote: avia12005
      . Since May 8, 2019 Anatoly Eduardovich Serdyukov, Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC United Aircraft Corporation

      Serdyukov was appointed just to reduce production facilities, personnel, "unification" of enterprises, optimizing costs, etc. What this will ultimately lead to is not difficult to guess.
      1. EvilLion April 15 2020 09: 13 New
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        To disperse the extra. In principle, it's high time. Whether you like it or not, but if the plant cannot be loaded for objective reasons, then you need to do something with it. In the 00s, when the equipment was not new, they all financed all the time, now the military has received new equipment, in some respects Soviet rubbish has already been almost completely written off, civilians who wanted to buy it too.

        No, you can, of course, leave the factories producing 3.5 helicopters a year, just in the style of A. G. Lukashenko, even if they wait 20 more years in this state.
    2. businessv April 14 2020 20: 02 New
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      Quote: avia12005
      Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC United Aircraft Corporation Anatoly Eduardovich Serdyukov.

      Oh you! Yes, now everything is becoming completely clear! This fruit, which has not sat in places, is not so distant and will continue its event successfully begun at the Moscow Region! Experience is the richest !!! You are right, as long as this person is here, we will have nothing!
  • Eug
    Eug April 14 2020 19: 44 New
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    And what is the fundamental difference between the concepts? In general, the situation is not surprising, the lack of competition at least at the level of a technical project (better than a prototype), financed by the design bureau itself, will come out more than once ...
  • businessv April 14 2020 19: 55 New
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    Yes, they lost the Soviet backlog in the person of Antonov. But it's time to create your own, Russian.
    You are, as always, right! It's time, in your words - yesterday! IMHO, there should always be competition, otherwise it happens exactly as we do today. One company, which is the only one on the market, will never do the job as it should and will never rush - there’s nowhere, no one is breathing in the back of the head!
    1. D16
      D16 April 14 2020 22: 10 New
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      One company, which is the only one on the market, will never do the job as it should and will never rush - there’s nowhere, no one is breathing in the back of the head!

      Instead of keeping several zombies on a starvation diet, for the sake of the visibility of the competition, it is better to gather specialists in one KB and provide them with work for normal money. However, the process goes naturally. Remember Talikov’s excuses after failing with IL-112. All sensible specialists went to Irkut to develop the MS-21. Maybe it’s worth giving this work to those who really know how to develop airplanes, rather than pulling out Soviet-era projects from under the cloth. Their quality was clearly demonstrated by the IL-112.
      1. victor50 April 15 2020 07: 09 New
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        Quote: D16
        Instead of keeping several zombies on a starvation diet, for the sake of the visibility of the competition, it is better to gather specialists in one KB, and provide them with work for normal money

        Why in the USSR there were several design bureaus and, surprisingly, there were airplanes. All categories, in any niche. And they were also exported. wink
        1. D16
          D16 April 15 2020 07: 50 New
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          Different design bureaus were geographically located in different corners of the country. This allowed team-administrative methods to distribute people after high schools and control their movements. In exchange, it was necessary to provide the design bureau and related factories relatively evenly with work, and this always contributed to the excessive variety of military equipment adopted for armament, developed as part of contests alone. This was especially pronounced in the Navy. But the army with three types of MBT did not lag behind laughing . But over time, controlling people has become problematic, and with the development of tyrnet, often people do not need to move physically. The trend towards enlargement can be seen all over the world. Competition is at the interstate or interblock level. An example of this is a pair of Boeing - Airbus. Only recently, Komak and Irkut are trying to dilute this sweet couple. Other civilian aircraft manufacturers from Canada and Brazil safely digest A and B.
        2. EvilLion April 15 2020 09: 19 New
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          In the USSR, there was a slightly different level of funding, and, importantly, a fundamentally different need, both in terms of the number of aircraft and the rate of their renewal. Now, when in the same fighter aircraft there is only one fundamentally new project, and this project will be in production, as it were, not human life, there can be no few design bureaus. Even if several parallel groups are formed, then all the losers will have to take the visor and work on the winning project, because the next. the competition will only be with their children, if not grandchildren.
      2. businessv April 15 2020 22: 59 New
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        Quote: D16
        Instead of keeping several zombies on a starvation diet, for the sake of the visibility of the competition, it is better to gather specialists in one KB and provide them with work for normal money.

        Then why in the Union were all kinds of aircraft models of different design bureaus? You can’t blame the USSR for the excessive encouragement of scientists and designers, but they considered it necessary to maintain just a few bureaus because no one canceled the narrow specialization, as well as the different focus of developments, the purpose of products and the peculiarity of their designs.
        1. D16
          D16 April 16 2020 08: 00 New
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          Then why in the Union were all kinds of aircraft models of different design bureaus?

          The reason for this is the enormous size of the USSR and the logistical difficulties associated with this. Each design bureau had its own factories, these factories had their own unique equipment, technologies, and suppliers located on a territorial basis. Thus, a unique territorial conglomerate with its technological capabilities was obtained. Each design bureau is guided by its manufacturers. as a consequence, it was problematic to force such a conglomerate to produce other people's developments, and each one made his own unique product.
  • Ruby April 14 2020 21: 24 New
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    Quote: Zaurbek
    And why was it all stop producing An12? His descendant is in full swing, the competitor C130 is also ...... or did you want to change to An70?

    That would probably be the right way. The plane has already proved everything to everyone. Upgrade the glider, change the engines, avionics and forward. It will cost orders of magnitude cheaper cars from scratch. After IL-76, after all, we went along this path. But this is on condition that you need a result. And if there is a cut in the task, then the An-12 quite flies to the 100th anniversary, and there will be nothing to replace it, except for words and projects.
    1. victor50 April 15 2020 07: 10 New
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      Quote: Yakut
      That would probably be the right way. The plane has already proved everything to everyone. Upgrade the glider, change the engines, avionics and forward.

      I agree. But a vile little thought stirs - what if we can’t even do this? Do not admit?
  • Azis April 14 2020 21: 55 New
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    So, the KLA will receive funding.
    You can not continue ... We need to return sharashka, without any "United ... corporations" and instead of Rostec - the Ministry of Defense
    1. Kronos April 14 2020 22: 09 New
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      In the sense of forcing scientists and engineers to force them to work?
      1. Azis April 14 2020 22: 19 New
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        Of course, mostly “managers” - let them administer, and there, you see, there will be an incentive for the scientific and engineering staff. Or are you afraid of stopping the flight of thought?
        1. Kronos April 14 2020 22: 20 New
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          Sharashki suited during a war or in preparation for a war in peacetime need ordinary kb
          1. Azis April 14 2020 22: 29 New
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            If the thoughts of the KB leadership are not at all busy result the work of the design bureau itself, and an increase in funding, taking into account the appetites of the leadership, in the person of Mr. Serdyukov and others like him, all the same, we need sharashki, it’s clear that not for a locksmith / engineer / calculator, etc., but for the top. They will give a result - they will receive an increase in soldering.
            1. Kronos April 14 2020 22: 31 New
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              The Surdekovs and from under the stick will not be able to need it so that talent was Korolev could if forced
              1. Azis April 14 2020 22: 34 New
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                Well, quoting Mayakovsky / Exupery: if the “stars” are lit, does anyone need this? A stick means you need to pick up. Half of the country plows productively for 1-2 minimum wages and they can.
            2. victor50 April 15 2020 07: 13 New
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              Quote: Azis
              represented by Mr. Serdyukov

              It seems that there is no alternative to this Mr. in the country, no replacement, as well as a great one ?! lol
          2. Pavel57 April 14 2020 22: 49 New
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            And who can guarantee peacetime in the conditions of a rolling world into a deep crisis?
    2. NordUral April 15 2020 21: 23 New
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      Guys! It is necessary to return the RSFSR and such a coat of arms, while it is still not too late:

      And these ask for leave, albeit with stolen, to hell with him, the search for everything that was stolen will not allow the country to work.
      Let them go, with them we will die as a country and as a people!
  • APASUS April 14 2020 22: 39 New
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    Now everything is for money and sometimes even they do not guarantee anything. I think everything is like with port facilities in the Baltic, someone very serious removes competitors from the market
  • Pavel57 April 14 2020 22: 47 New
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    Tell me which plant will be built, and I will say who will win the projects.
  • tracer April 15 2020 00: 02 New
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    Sasha is watching you on YouTube across the ocean. We are waiting for new videos.
  • EvilLion April 15 2020 08: 45 New
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    Today the fleet of our transporters of all classes is almost twice as inferior to the American one! Something about 250 cars against more than 400 American. For our territories it is practically nothing.


    Given that the army can still be thrown only by trains, and a significant part of even the existing aircraft is stupidly in storage, you can only twist a finger at the temple.

    As for the "new plane", the author himself invented, and he himself also spread a tantrum. Is there a little IL-76?
  • nikvic46 April 15 2020 08: 52 New
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    I’m more than sure that in peacetime and in war, airplanes of different directions will be required. Both low-speed and super-fast. Both heavy and light. Because each machine has its own advantages. It is necessary to build not only aircraft plants, but also engine-building ones.
  • Mikhail3 April 15 2020 09: 27 New
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    There is no mystery. Over the past 30 years, in the capital and the surrounding area, design has progressed according to a very small selection of scenarios.
    1. Ten sheets of paper and CD disk with nonsense are for rent. A billion is being formed under this case. This was the most common way.
    2. A designer from the province is invited, together with his company, a project is done, then they throw stupid provincials. This was the second most popular method, but it is of limited use. It doesn’t work out to design planes, tanks and spaceships — real design takes a lot of time, you have to give too much money to stupid provincials, which is unacceptable. Too many bribes need to be distributed, and palaces in Europe with yachts will not buy themselves.
    3. Promise development, get an advance and dump.
    No more design was conducted in Russia, it is not being conducted, and none of those who milk the state on this topic is going to change this situation. If you look closely at the listed methods, then they have something in common. Have you noticed? In no way is there a place for professional designers. In the second case, the designers seem to be there, but they are actively destroyed in it - a couple of times you will pay off the debts that have arisen from Moscow scammers, and for your whole life you will no longer be up to the design ...
    However, at the moment, suddenly (some sort of sudden) REAL design was needed. And then it turned out perfect fiction - there really is no one to design. Well, that is, in general. Paper designers for method number 1, these are not designers, and there is nothing to be done about them. You need to study for a real specialist for decades. The provincials have long been physically destroyed, they are fleeing debt, and for the most part they simply left. The only cool aircraft designers remaining in Russia are working for a Boeing. But they were so "fed up" with amazing meanness in their field that it would be better to leave for the US to wash the floors than to work for those fantastic creatures that forced the Russian design elite to leave for the Boeing.
    Do you think these ... wonderful bosses of this wonderful "aircraft corporation" have organizational problems? Hehe ... This project is simply ANYONE to do, that's all. Even if they promise for the design of world-class aircraft not 30 thousand rubles a month, as of now, but all 32! Well, how it happened, well, I just don’t understand ...
    1. EvilLion April 15 2020 13: 17 New
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      Well, you there in Kievisho undoubtedly know better how here and what is being designed.
      1. Mikhail3 April 16 2020 13: 09 New
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        Honey, I'm from Smolensk))
  • Radikal April 15 2020 20: 40 New
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    Quote: major147
    Quote: 2 level advisor
    There were in the history of raw superdezhavi-the Spanish Empire, Argentina, one of the richest in the world then. They had roads, all kinds of high bugs among citizens .. and where are they now compared to competitors?

    You are somehow drawn to the heights, and you go down to earth. People in the 90s thought how to feed themselves, but now they have built houses, bought cars, go to foreign resorts not oligarchs, as in the 90s, but ordinary engineers living around me.
    And then they bring all the infection here, and the rest who do not go - what are they to blame for, if such "riders" like you having satisfied their suffering of the 90s over the hill, then they drag the coronavirus into the country, or some rubbish! I would have been silent, sufferer! sad
    1. major147 April 16 2020 15: 04 New
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      Quote: Radikal
      I would have been silent, sufferer!

      Don’t shut me up! Put the Iron Curtain and don't let anyone!
  • NordUral April 15 2020 21: 15 New
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    I don’t even want to comment, it's disgusting.
  • Romanenko April 16 2020 12: 23 New
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    Yes, the An-12 is of course the dinosaur of our air fleet, although not the only one, the Tu-95 is also almost the same age as this airplane.
    And if with a bomber it’s still somehow more - it’s less clear how much and how to fly it yet, then the 12th board is operated on virtually no alternative conditions.
    It is high time to replace it with something more modern and meeting the requirements of the current time, and not the middle of the last century.
    I have an acquaintance with aviation related to this aircraft, or rather, my brother An-10, I flew my first flight as a passenger on it from Kharkov to Moscow in 1963, and then I jumped from the 12th side in the army and now I meet him often in the sky and at airports in Russia and abroad.
    He will soon glorify us in the Guinness book, but now he, alas, dishonors us as a country that does not have its own modern transport aircraft.
    Sorry for the old man, but it's time to change.
  • Ua3qhp April 16 2020 14: 00 New
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    Quote: D16
    Each design bureau had its own factories, these factories had their own unique equipment, technologies, and suppliers located on a territorial basis.

    Yeah. IL-76 Tashkent, IL 86 Voronezh - very close by.
  • seacap April 16 2020 15: 03 New
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    This is no longer getting ridiculous, we must constantly hear, we will, this is a breakthrough, killers of boning and airbasses, etc. etc. arshin headings on the front pages and from each iron, but then something went wrong in small print and at night between the virus and the snow in the Arctic. Do it, launch it, and then download and rejoice, and then for 30 years not a single aircraft engine, Soviet developments are no longer able to bring to mind, poor An-2 has nothing to replace (before that, not so long ago, they also shouted, not to shut up, that “tomorrow” we’ll overwhelm the entire world’s small aviation), they rejoiced, they blew the model of the Elephant concept (stretch it for another 50 years, until the need disappears by itself or “office” is dispersed), they still fly on royal missiles, old-new’s are not fate "bring to mind, and the loot has already been mastered. Or it might be better to talk about how and most importantly, by whom personally, by whose orders and activities, by whose orders, the aviation industry was destroyed and destroyed, reducing the legendary design bureaus and enterprises, destroying flying schools and research institutes. In general, our (long ago not ours) managerial and degrading estate, more like a colonial administration, looking after a semi-colonial, "pipe" economy, this whole "hemorrhoids", is too complicated and profit is so-so, and the hassle and costs are full, and here the crisis drove them into a complete stupor. As always, there are no plans for the gramadier-exhaust, anyway no one is responsible for anything, he doesn’t consider the money spent, sorry, spent money, we’ll squeeze something else out of the people, for sunny light, for example. And all that is needed is a patriotic, highly professional leadership, and most importantly, with the highest degree of responsibility for the results of decisions and work, a categorical exclusion of the influence of external intervention and control through the tools of external neocolonial management of the Central Bank and the HSE, etc. similar NGOs.
  • seacap April 16 2020 15: 08 New
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    Quote: Romanenko
    Tu-95 is also almost the same age as this airplane.

    But what's the difference how many years the platform for cruise missiles has amers, the A 52 has been successfully operating since the mid-50s, as well as the C 130, by the way.
  • Alexfly April 18 2020 10: 42 New
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    After abandoning the AN-70 project, there will be no more other similar AN-12 variants. Forge the iron, without departing from the cash register, as they say .... but it is a pity, the excellent flyer was ....