They asked "Ashen". How has one of the most dangerous Russian submarines changed


Hello from 90's



On April XNUMXth of this year, an important event took place: the Americans introduced in operation a new multipurpose submarine of the fourth type Virginia - USS Delaware. An important event, important primarily for the opponents of the United States, as for the Americans themselves it is almost ordinary: the submarine has already become the eighteenth boat of this type introduced into the US Navy. Previously, the Pentagon also commissioned the three multipurpose Seawolf. They are far from new, but even surpass Virginia in the sum of their qualities, referring to the same generation as it is.

Only one submarine can now compare with these boats in the world - the Russian multi-purpose submarine of project 885 Ash, which has now turned into project 885M. Recall now in the Russian Navy there is only one submarine of this family. It's about being incorporated into the North fleet The Russian Navy back in 2014 submarine K-560 "Severodvinsk". The second such boat, K-561 Kazan, was launched in 2017 and is still being tested. It can be considered as the full-fledged birth of a new type of Russian submarine fleet.

"Severodvinsk" became a long-term construction with a capital letter: it was laid back in 1993, and then de facto mothballed until its best years. Years passed, and the boat was outdated in some respects. "Kazan", which became the first submarine of the upgraded project 885M, is designed to correct this situation. Of course, the combat capabilities of the submarine should increase, and the old "childhood illnesses" should be eliminated. The task, it must be said, is far from being as simple as it seems, and it requires compromises: the new version of Ashen has already lost some of the capabilities of its ancestor.


New old boat


The evolution of the submarine recently drew Izvestia’s attention, although it must be said that they wrote about the differences between the relatively old and conditionally new projects a long time ago. Firstly, the appearance of the submarine has changed. Compared with the Severodvinsk submarine K-561, the Kazan has become shorter: its length is not 139 meters, but 130. The living compartment was cut by four meters. The nose of the submarine has become sharper compared to the lead ship: this is not visible in the photographs, since the main part of the nose of the submarine is hidden under water. The new boat also has increased dimensions of the stern plumage. All this became possible, including through the use of more advanced and compact electronic weapons and automation equipment.


“Since then (since the bookmark of the Severodvinsk submarine. - Approx. Aut.), Much has changed. Improved sonar equipment and a new element base have appeared, says military observer Dmitry Boltenkov. “And it would be foolish not to use it during the construction of the nuclear submarine.” For example, a change in the shape of the nose of the ship may indicate that an antenna of a more advanced, but at the same time compact sonar complex was placed at its tip. ”

The main conceptual difference can be considered a decrease in the number of torpedo tubes. Now there are not ten, but eight. Torpedo tubes, as before, are in the middle of the submarine. They are installed between the internal “strong” and external “light” hull of the ship in the logging area.


According to data from open sources, the ammunition of "Kazan" is 30 torpedoes. What kind of torpedoes these are is another question, the information here is more than contradictory. “Until now, physicist torpedoes have been equipped with project 955 ships of the Borey type and 885 of the Ash type. Ammunition on them is 40 and 30 units, respectively. Now all of them will be replaced by more advanced “Cases”, ”TASS wrote at the end of February 2020.

It is difficult to say how accurate this information is. In any case, it is known that the obsolete Soviet torpedo USET-80 is still in service with the Russian Navy. In the same February, the notorious bmpd block wrote that in the recently published photographs of the torpedo deck of the latest strategic submarine "Borey" you can see the full USET-80 ammunition. “Alas, this is the reality of the Russian Navy,” the author concludes.

Beat Zircon


Of course, torpedoes are only part of the arsenal of Project 885 and 885M submarines. The boat can carry a wide arsenal of missile weapons, in particular, Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles. The Severodvinsk submarine has eight vertical missile shafts behind the slide rail, and the new Kazan has ten. Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles.

Theoretically, they allow us to solve a wide range of problems, in particular, to effectively fight even the most modern surface ships of a potential enemy. On the other hand, it is fair to say that such weapons Now few people will be surprised, as well as their number.

It is appropriate to recall the American Virginia, which for some reason some media consider “worse” than the 885 project. At the same time, it is often overlooked that the promising Virginia Block V should receive an additional VPM (Virginia Payload Module) payload compartment. This is a compartment with 28 vertical launchers, which, together with the already existing twelve launchers, increase their number to 40.


In this regard, Russian specialists have their own conditional answer. We are talking about equipping the Yasen submarine with the new Zircon hypersonic missile, which, according to media reports, will have a range of about 400-600 kilometers at a maximum speed of 4 to 8 Machs (according to some reports, they want to increase the flight speed in the future up to 12 thousand kilometers per hour).

It is worth recalling that in March TASS reported that they intend to use the K-560 Severodvinsk, and not Kazan, for the forthcoming tests of hypersonic Zircon, as previously assumed. Until recently, it was the first submarine of an improved project that they wanted to make a new “test site”, but this was prevented by protracted tests.

However, this does not mean at all that Project 885M boats will not be carriers of a hypersonic missile. In general, the Ministry of Defense wants as many new surface ships and submarines as possible to get new weapons. Earlier, the media had once announced plans to equip Zircon with a promising fifth-generation nuclear submarine of the fifth generation, project 545, known as the Husky and Laika. By the way, it can be considered as a good illustration of the evolution of Russian multi-purpose submarines. If you believe the model shown at the National Center for Defense Management of Russia in December last year, then project 545 will be less than both Severodvinsk and its development in the person of Kazan.

They asked "Ashen". How has one of the most dangerous Russian submarines changed

This will be a relatively small submarine, the trump card of which should be exceptional low noise. Obviously, if the project can be implemented, then these boats will operate for a very long time on a par with project 885 / 885M, until the latter goes into history.
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  1. Andrei Nikolaevich April 15 2020 05: 48 New
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    I am glad that the state finally paid attention to the fleet. New ships, submarines. A new standard of living for the crew and their families. It should be so. People in a sturdy housing risk their lives. Obliged to live with dignity and be respected in their own state.
    1. Snail N9 April 15 2020 08: 16 New
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      The notorious "Caliber" and "Zircons" are constantly referred to the place and out of place by type, "here they are, which means the end of the adversary, all of them with a" fence ", we are all stronger because ..." Yeah, another "super-wunderwafer." ... Well, the number of Ashes and Virginia ... not to mention the Improved Los Angeles ...
      1. Kalmar April 15 2020 09: 38 New
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        Quote: Snail N9
        The notorious "Gauges" and "Zircons" are constantly referred to the place and out of place by type- "here they are, which means the end of the adversary, all of them with a" fence ", we are all stronger because ..." Yeah, another "super-wunderwafel"

        Well, why out of place? The Gauges are like the Tomahawks: the main weapon of the modern Russian fleet. The complex, on the whole, is very successful and, together with Onyx, is capable of performing most of the tasks facing the fleet.

        There are, of course, more uncertainties with the Zircons: it is still not completely clear what this missile is (and whether it is, in principle). When it appears in the fleet in sufficient quantities - a big question.

        Quote: Snail N9
        Well, the number of "Ashen" and "Virginia"

        There is no point in even comparing (and never has). The fleet has a very different role for "them" and ours (due to geography), a very different economic situation. The number of submarines should not be more than that of "them", but as many as necessary in accordance with our military doctrine.
      2. businessv April 16 2020 22: 10 New
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        Quote: Snail N9
        The notorious "Caliber" and "Zircons" are constantly referred to the place and out of place

        Don’t react so nervous, colleague! After all, the author simply listed the possible options for weapons! And why, interestingly, are they "notorious" ?! Just a new weapon! hi
        1. Angry April 22 2020 22: 54 New
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          I also agree with a friend. We are all in awe and for whom? "They did not boast about going to the army; they boasted about going with the rati." Boasting is your own betrayal! In this way, we give the enemy time to take measures to neutralize our “Miracle of Weapons”. Losing the effect of surprise! Toli was a secret in the union ... Nobody knew anything ... And now, just boasting. For which we will pay.
    2. businessv April 16 2020 22: 12 New
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      Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
      Obliged to live with dignity and be respected in their own state.

      I wonder who slapped you cons? Just like well-wishers! smile
  2. Rurikovich April 15 2020 06: 11 New
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    important primarily for the opponents of the United States, since for the Americans themselves it is almost ordinary: the submarine has already become the eighteenth boat of this type introduced into the US Navy.

    The question of who is longer and thicker I think is closed - you can swear how much you want that you have a submarine, but if it is ONE, and the opponent has 18 times more, then who will win is not difficult to guess. request
    Examples when a good amount won an excellent quality mass ...
    1. antivirus April 15 2020 08: 26 New
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      a small spoon - 1, and friends-18. gluttons ...
    2. Alexey RA April 15 2020 11: 09 New
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      Quote: Rurikovich
      Examples when a good amount won an excellent quality mass ...

      So ... the best example is WWII performed by the USA. We will build a cloud of not-so-outstanding tanks, planes and ships, put middling in them - and fill up the enemy’s wunderwafes with a mass.
      Yes, one Panther costs nine Shermans - but what can you do if the enemy has a dozen of them for each Panther? smile
      1. Courier April 15 2020 14: 46 New
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        The Americans had the best planes and ships.
        1. Alexey RA April 15 2020 18: 46 New
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          Quote: Courier
          The Americans had the best planes and ships.

          Not at all. The Axis was chasing the prodigies, building breakthrough and excellent TTX, but low-series or unreliable models. And the Yankees took it in a large series.
          What is the use of the Yamato pair if the enemy built ten post-Washington people? Yes, they can not be compared with “Yamato” - but there are ten of them!
          “Taiho” and “Sinano” are very good - but the enemy every standard month lowers the standard “Essex”.
          Super-duper destroyers with long-range oxygen torpedoes? Yes, no problem - 175 “Fletchers”, 67 “Sumners”, and after them also “Girings”.
          Me-163 and Me-262? Ki-100? C'mon, just add more Mustangs.
          Guided bombs? Our answer is the Mustangs and decks + EW (EMNIP, remodeling old radars).
          1. Courier April 15 2020 19: 38 New
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            If the axis produced such super duper super planes, where and which axis had an analogue of the B 29? Who in the world had an analogue of the B 29?
            1. Valdaev April 16 2020 11: 30 New
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              There is such a country, and we know it)))
            2. Alexey RA April 16 2020 14: 03 New
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              Quote: Courier
              If the axis produced such super duper super planes, where and which axis had an analogue of the B 29? Who in the world had an analogue of the B 29?

              Japanese G8N. Here it is - already as a Yankee trophy:
              1. Courier April 17 2020 07: 09 New
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                Indeed, much better than the average B 29. Everything as you said yes
              2. timokhin-aa April 17 2020 16: 12 New
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                Well, better than the B-29, this car has never been.
          2. Sevastiec 30 June 2020 15: 50 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            The Axis was chasing the prodigies

            She could chase from a fence to dinner, but the objective fact is that in many classes, the Germans lagged behind. One cannot categorically say that they excelled everyone in everything. Like everyone else, they did something more successfully, something less.
  3. Thrifty April 15 2020 06: 18 New
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    11000 tons displacement "small submarine? It will be more compact, due to the latest equipment, less crew, but more technologically advanced and more efficient in relation to the" predecessors ". Another thing is how much the fleet needs and how much we will actually build them .
  4. jonht April 15 2020 06: 21 New
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    The number of “Hummingbirds” on Yaseny can be increased by the option of Varshovyank launched through torpedo tubes, is there a question?
    1. Charik April 15 2020 17: 35 New
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      If the Russian language is not very good, then at least develop visual memory, read it, remember how it is written and that’s it.
      1. jonht April 16 2020 00: 42 New
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        Take the corrector and fix it, you have VERY.
  5. Fizik M April 15 2020 06: 42 New
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    article to say the least “nothing” (by the way, there are “Physics” on 885, and quite officially - see purchases of GI RI ed. 2534)
    reality:
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=32#p1166837
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=24#p1148066
    https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1891&p=33
    from a stream with MVM
    https://yadi.sk/d/RNSiAlWOtkwU4Q
    1. Orkraider April 15 2020 15: 52 New
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      Greetings!
      And according to the number of physicists there is no tendency to increase in procurement?
      You have not been to VO for a long time. hi
      1. Fizik M April 15 2020 16: 52 New
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        Quote: Orkraider
        And according to the number of physicists there is no tendency to increase in procurement?

        they were purchased in quite commercial quantities
        and photos of works from 6363 in Sevast clearly hint at this
        1. Charik April 15 2020 18: 03 New
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          That is, maybe at 636 Physics?
          1. Fizik M April 15 2020 18: 39 New
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            Quote: Charik
            That is, maybe at 636 Physics?

            what does "maybe" mean? - online a bunch of pictures from their loading on 6363 in Sevastopol, both combat and practical
  6. pmkemcity April 15 2020 07: 26 New
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    Vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA torment me. At what speed can a torpedo be fired so that it doesn’t break? The angle of the "first turn" can be set to any. Then why not shoot back? What is this aanimation?
    1. Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 09: 57 New
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      Quote: pmkemcity
      Vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA torment me
      This placement of TA is not an end in itself, it allowed to place the nose antenna of the HAK of a much larger size, which means sensitivity.
      1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 06 New
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        Quote: pmkemcity
        Vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA torment me
        This placement of TA is not an end in itself, it allowed to place the nose antenna of the HAK of a much larger size, which means sensitivity.

        You have answered sonar now.
        1. Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 10: 36 New
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          “Warn!” © laughing
          1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 43 New
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            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            “Warn!” © laughing

            As with everything, size matters in sonar. But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose? I do not know. Maybe someone will argue with me, but I don’t see a fundamental difference. drinks
            1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 47 New
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              In addition, all this certainly complicates the process of reloading and storing torpedoes - to store torpedoes longitudinally and then push them diagonally into the TA?
              1. Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 11: 08 New
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                Quote: pmkemcity
                But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose

                But I think that the TA in the nose at least obscure the antenna from the sides. Regardless of form.
                1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 10 New
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                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  But I think that the TA in the nose at least obscure the antenna from the sides. Regardless of form.

                  Our TAs - to all TA devices! They were prudently located above the antenna, in two rows, and not outboard.
                  1. Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 11: 12 New
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                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    above antenna
                    Look, not from the sides, so on top. All the same, the submarine is inhabited in three dimensions.
                    1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 25 New
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                      There are other antennas for the “upper hemisphere”. And hydroacoustics, so far, works only in one plane.

                      Pay attention to the plastic fairing of the antenna - it is not suitable for breaking ice, mooring lines, etc.
                      1. Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 48 New
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                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        Pay attention to the plastic cowl antenna

                        It’s interesting that on a solid foundation (slipway plate) when you are in the HAC fence, you can hear very well what they are doing and saying “overboard”
                      2. pmkemcity April 17 2020 06: 02 New
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                        It’s interesting that on a solid foundation (slipway plate) when you are in the HAC fence, you can hear very well what they are doing and saying “overboard”

                        The fairing is made of a translucent material, but close in its properties to water, so that there would be no refraction. the fence is filled with water, and forward ... By the way, the larger the antenna, the more tons of water you need to “swing” with the active mode. There are problems with cavitation. In general, the antenna is a monumental structure made of real iron. I saw at the factory.
                      3. Charik April 17 2020 23: 21 New
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                        In order to put HAK into active mode, do you need to pump water into the submarine?
                      4. pmkemcity April 18 2020 11: 51 New
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                        Quote: Charik
                        In order to put HAK into active mode, do you need to pump water into the submarine?

                        The fence is always filled with water, but for some work they can pump water (only on the surface, of course). At 1155 BOD, my classmate, while in his greatcoat, miraculously managed to jump out of the fence when the water “accidentally” went there.
            2. pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 14 New
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              Like this:
              1. Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 14: 07 New
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                Thanks for the images. Got a question.
                Quote: pmkemcity
                And hydroacoustics, so far, works only in one plane
                Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below? I know about hydrocline in the most general terms.
                1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 14 New
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                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below? I know about hydrocline in the most general terms.

                  Everything that is accepted, both above and below, everything goes only along the bearing. There are separate antennas for viewing the ice conditions.
                2. Fizik M April 16 2020 10: 39 New
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                  Quote: pmkemcity
                  everything goes only on the bearing

                  Not only
                  amers from the beginning of the 60s ("ball" BQQ 1 and 2)
                  we SPDG on the same 971 also worked very well
                3. pmkemcity April 16 2020 11: 58 New
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                  Quote: Fizik M
                  Not only
                  amers from the beginning of the 60s ("ball" BQQ 1 and 2)
                  we SPDG on the same 971 also worked very well

                  Well ball and ball. So what? Is that the mass-dimensional characteristics are slightly higher. The cylinder is rather easier to manufacture and repair, mathematics, of course, these are trifles, but the same is simpler. And who is that, I apologize for SpDG? Is he your relative?
                4. Fizik M April 16 2020 12: 10 New
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                  Americans set the ball to have a depth of purpose
                  it is very important for the use of torpedoes in the conditions of GPA (see vertically expanding SSN)

                  SHPDG - 7 subsystem MGK-540 ("noise-finding with the development of distance and depth"), worked very well, but subject to competent and well-trained not only as many SAS operators as KPL
                5. pmkemcity April 16 2020 12: 17 New
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                  MGK - 500 in my cadet years only mounted a class. At the level of concepts taught. I don’t see the problem of calculating the angle of inclination of the character of the direction of terrorism, but, as Stanislavsky said, I do not believe it! Only at a short distance, until the first reflection. And again, where does the ball come from?
                6. Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 47 New
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                  on Skat KS (MGK-500) there is no SPDG
                  like (I don’t know for sure) she was on Skate-BDRM
                  on its mathematics in an open and acceptable form - see the monograph "Oceanopribor" according to the CEO
                  It worked, but it required a very thorough and competent (by no means on a dive!) Removal of the ASCV
      2. Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 23 New
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        Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below?


        Above and below, the concept is relative.

        General Information:

        It is from below, under the keel-bottom. Depth measures the echo sounder. This is a separate device. Sends down "packages" and receives an echo. The crew knows the depth "under the keel".
        Up:
        is the "NOR" navigation divorce detector. Shows the situation above the submarine. A separate device sends “packages” back and forth. It can be used when searching for wormwood when floating in ice (for example).
        is the "NOC" circular navigation detector. Separate device. Shows the situation above the submarine. "Spin" like a radar. You can see the wave height (for example).

        Actually, the main antenna HAK:
        Hefty "barrel", hung with piezoceramic transducers. The so-called "simultaneous all-round visibility" is carried out. "Garlands" of radiation patterns are formed around the circle (as the submarine case does not obscure) and at several tilt angles. Those. this is not one “flashlight” that turns and “illuminates” everything around “in the forest”, but hundreds of flashlights located in five (for example) rows at different angles. They simultaneously scan the situation around the submarine (part obscures the hull). Including at angles. For example (for general understanding): one row of "flashlights" illuminates upwards by +30 degrees, another at +15, the third at "0", the fourth down at -15, and the fifth at -30 degrees.
        Thus, the nose antenna of the HAC receives sound beams "entering" at several angles. All this design of "flashlights" is mobile and does not stand still, constantly scanning the space around.
        The exact characteristics of these devices and complexes, the application, of course, were not disclosed.

        By the way, one can observe the target along the "lower" beam and the practically absence along the "upper" one.

        In general, modern submarines are crammed with a huge amount of technical means of lighting the environment. I think here you can’t even get off with just one article, not like commentary.
      3. pmkemcity April 17 2020 05: 54 New
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        Quote: Podvodnik
        By the way, one can observe the target along the "lower" beam and the practically absence along the "upper" one.

        It makes no sense to divide XN into "flashlights", so indulge. Multipath CN is always worse than single-beam. Nothing prevents scanning both in the vertical plane and in the horizontal. Make a "narrow" or "wide" beam. But the mapping to the UOI has always been "flat."
  • Fizik M April 15 2020 14: 53 New
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    Quote: pmkemcity
    Our TAs - to all TA devices!

    alas, our TA is a museum junk (with the exception of 677 projects)
    1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 17 New
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      Quote: Fizik M
      alas, our TA is a museum junk (with the exception of 677 projects)

      TA like TA. I’ve climbed a dozen times on karachka - it’s a piece of iron and piece of iron. And what, I’m sorry to ask, TA 677 is fundamentally different from my "native" 877 project?
      1. Fizik M April 15 2020 18: 40 New
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        Quote: pmkemcity
        And what, I’m sorry to ask, TA 677 is fundamentally different from my "native" 877 project?

        for example low-noise shot
      2. pmkemcity April 16 2020 04: 48 New
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        Quote: Fizik M
        for example low-noise shot

        It’s interesting, but what is applied there fundamentally new? Spitting out the torpedo and hiding the bubble is all that can be done (in my understanding of the mine).
      3. Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 06 New
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        the question is HOW to do it
        and on 675 and 971 turbines, only the first "roaring cow", and the second ...
      4. pmkemcity April 16 2020 06: 39 New
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        Everything rests on the culture of execution, "tolerances and landings" (not in the sense of secrecy and terms of punishment). Many mechanisms before the first repair - for example, a sailor painted an electric motor, so nicely, with oil paint, foreman rejoices, only with the engine, he painted both the foundation and supports ... Sound tracks appeared. The bearing is good, but the casting quality of the ED housing or the converter is none - distortions, beats. Around hack, in short. I got a batch of axial fans, 52 pcs. different sizes. Of these, only three earned flawlessly, another five were able to adjust themselves, the rest was thrown out. But the boats of 675 and 971 projects are incorrect to compare, although 675, too, the Americans got their nerves in their time.
      5. Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 51 New
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        short and subjective: when in the CPU, a TA shot at the Lada is almost HEARING
        we don’t need to talk about how it “looks usually” on our other projects ...
      6. pmkemcity April 16 2020 07: 00 New
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        Quote: Fizik M
        short and subjective: when in the CPU, a TA shot at the Lada is almost HEARING

        Maybe this indicates a good noise isolation of the CPU? The noise of the shot is of course important, you can even listen to how the TA covers open, but tactically all this does not make much sense. The noise of the torpedo - yes. If the Americans hear the noise of a shot, and after a second the noise of the Flurry engine, then they will have only exactly one second more time to read the prayer.
      7. Fizik M April 16 2020 07: 44 New
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        I have only impressed with pneumatic TAs from my experience (moreover, there were details of the type of water entering the compartment in the form of a “horizontal column of water” in the entire TA section (it was on Grusha, TA # 12)), and on 3 knees ( with GGTA) there is not particularly audible, but perceived by the "body" - as a shudder of the body
      8. pmkemcity April 16 2020 08: 07 New
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        I heard that the Americans were working on starting the engine in the TA, that is, without air at all. Such a topic will greatly simplify the design, there will be no need to hide the bubble, the trim will not change. I would generally suggest maintenance-free containers, outside a sturdy hull, with a shot in the stern. In this case, the depth and speed of the submarine will not matter.
      9. Fizik M April 16 2020 08: 17 New
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        Quote: pmkemcity
        I heard that the Americans were working on starting the engine in the TA, that is, without air at all

        self-exit problems with stealth
        Quote: pmkemcity
        no need to hide the bubble

        hydraulic firing system is familiar to us from 705
        Quote: pmkemcity
        the trim will not change

        it has nothing to do with the type of firing system, but only with the weight and volume of the ammunition
        Quote: pmkemcity
        with a shot in the stern. In this case, the depth and speed of the submarine will not matter.

        depth has nothing to do with this, but for speed it’s better to shoot FORWARD
        the question was completely studied on 675 and 659 projects with KTA
      10. pmkemcity April 16 2020 09: 04 New
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        depth has nothing to do with this, but for speed it’s better to shoot FORWARD

        May be. But I am for the simplification of all systems. Remove everything from the durable case, leave only the CPU and the galley.
      11. Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 34 New
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        it’s good that mechanics don’t read it ... laughing
      12. pmkemcity April 16 2020 11: 47 New
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        Quote: Fizik M
        it’s good that mechanics don’t read it

        The same mechanics overboard! Only trample everywhere, and the handrails from them are dirty. am
      13. Fizik M April 16 2020 12: 07 New
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        I saw the hold - kill! laughing
      14. pmkemcity April 16 2020 12: 45 New
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        By the way, among Americans that everyone hated everyone, at least not so long ago, mechanics went to the submarine commanders. Maybe that's why they have such a low accident rate?
      15. Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 20 New
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        Amazing dialogue, I am glad that it arose through my "fault"! )))
      16. Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 38 New
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        their normal accident rate
        another question is that there have been no disasters for a long time
        By the way, after Thresher, a translated copy of Rickover’s report was sent to military missions for draconian measures by the US, and the industry (which you didn’t need to know about this dock) was shocked to say the least (they dug up a lot)
    2. Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 19 New
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      Amazing dialogue, I am glad that it arose through my "fault"! )))
    3. pmkemcity April 16 2020 13: 22 New
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      Only talk and talk left. There is a lot of time.
    4. Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 25 New
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      Yeah, I quit drinking, only then I registered here.)) Time appeared and it’s boring without vodka. )))
    5. pmkemcity April 16 2020 13: 27 New
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      I have 20 liters of alcohol standing under the table for a month. But ... you can’t! For disinfection!
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 50 New
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    the trim will not change


    The trim varies due to the relief of the "bow" of the boat after the release of the product. And it pulls up. To compensate, take water in the refueling complex (torpedo replacement tank). The smaller the submarine itself, the more noticeable the effect.
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 44 New
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    but perceived by the "body"

    and the ears are also felt by the change in pressure. Exhaust air is vented into the compartment.
  • Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 43 New
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    if the air systems "leave much to be desired", then after firing you can "spit" with seals, or collect the entire contents of the pockets in the VSK after "blowing" when you open its side door
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 17: 26 New
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    Jokes are bad with pressure. It is necessary to drive the air back in time with the compressors.
    And then really, you can fly out with a side hatch if you have enough forces to open it with a fool.
    On gosah, I remember, it was noticeable on the ears. They shot "from the heart."
  • Fizik M April 16 2020 18: 34 New
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    Quote: Podvodnik
    you can fly out with a side hatch if you have enough forces to open it with a fool.

    and flew out
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 34 New
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    Everything rests on a performance culture


    In her darling and rests. This is called the "culture of production."
    Different factories, having the same equipment available, manage to produce products with different characteristics.
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 40 New
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    Spit out the torpedo and hide the bubble


    Nobody hides bubbles (and for a long time). The product spits out with water.
    Naturally, TAs may vary slightly in "binding" from project to project. But the pipe itself remains a pipe. Well, or the submarine is designed for special loads (immersion depth of 1000 meters for example). Then it’s not only TA that has to be changed. All overboard fittings are recalculated for other loads.
  • Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 40 New
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    Quote: Podvodnik
    The product spits out with water.

    in pneumatic TA - by air
    even at 677
  • Podvodnik April 16 2020 17: 22 New
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    in pneumatic TA - by air


    It is natural. Something needs to be pushed out. He believed that this "rudiment" remained far in the past.
    He drew attention to the photo at the beginning of the article. Again sticks a barrel of SORS (MRKP-59?). When will this "rudiment" be redone?
  • Fizik M April 16 2020 18: 33 New
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    Quote: Podvodnik
    He believed that this "rudiment" remained far in the past.

    at 677 this "vestigial" in terms of the firing system did very very well
    but this is Rubin itself, without the full-time developer of TA (PL) Malachite
  • Grits April 15 2020 15: 53 New
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    Quote: pmkemcity
    As with everything, size matters in sonar. But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose? I do not know. Maybe someone will argue with me, but I don’t

    In the 90s, I went (as a civilian specialist) to test a very interesting ship. Between him his name was "Axon." It was redone from the BDR. instead of a torpedo, there is a whole compartment of racks with equipment, and in front is a huge ball of a new sonar complex. The diameter was even larger than the diameter of the body of the BDR. Therefore, it looked comical - there was a thickening on the nose (with a natural Russian name). Even on the bow on the deck installed a "fishing rod" - a remote antenna-crane for measuring parameters. It was a miracle ... It was on it that the tests of that HAK that are now being put on Borei and Ash-trees (well, or their ancestors)
    1. pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 24 New
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      Quote: Gritsa
      The diameter was even larger than the diameter of the body of the BDR.

      The diameter of the antenna depends on the diameter of the housing. The number of hydrophones depends on the diameter of the antenna (this is the number of transceivers in the AFAR). The radiation power in the active mode and the quality of the directivity characteristic depend on the number of hydrophones, on which, in turn, the accuracy of determining the direction to the sound source or response depends. Our antennas were good, but the hydrophones are bad (in the sense of the spread of parameters).
  • Charik April 17 2020 23: 18 New
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    yusa submarine launches at lower speeds than our submarines (uncle said one thing, I don’t know whether he is a submariner or not)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Peter is not the first April 15 2020 07: 58 New
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    There is a desire that there would be more and more different, but in this case it would be better to have more, but less than different, otherwise there is no seriality so far, each boat is exceptional and unique. When in Russia we will call a series not 2-4 boats, but at least 10 boats of the same modification.
    1. Winnie76 April 15 2020 08: 39 New
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      Quote: Peter is not the first
      When in Russia we will call a series not 2-4 boats, but at least 10 boats of the same modification.

      The cost of Ash is not less than a yard of greenery. Big load on the budget
      1. Peter is not the first April 15 2020 10: 35 New
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        If there was serial production, then the cost of each subsequent serial boat would be less than the head.
  • V.I.P. April 15 2020 08: 45 New
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    Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes? Foreigners seem to have traps being shot, even someone writes about some anti-torpedoes ...
    1. kjhg April 15 2020 09: 02 New
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      Quote: V.I.P.
      Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes?

      Last year at VO there was a good article on this subject. Look, you can find. If not, ask Andrey from Chelyabinsk or Timokhin. They are in the know.
      1. Avior April 16 2020 22: 33 New
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        Look, you can find. If not, ask Andrey from Chelyabinsk or Timokhin. They are in the know.

        Correct Fizik M
        however, he already answered
    2. Fizik M April 15 2020 09: 11 New
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      Quote: V.I.P.
      Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes? Foreigners seem to have traps being shot, even someone writes about some anti-torpedoes ...

      https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
      http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1891&p=33
      1. V.I.P. April 15 2020 13: 47 New
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        Thanks for the links. The situation as I expected. And then these screaming about "has no analogues in the world" and zombies, some bravura relations produce))) ....... ..
  • Chaldon48 April 15 2020 09: 08 New
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    There was a Lira boat, extremely automated and in a titanium hull, but now what?
    1. Grits April 15 2020 16: 00 New
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      Quote: Chaldon48
      There was a boat "Lira", extremely automated and in a titanium hull, but now what

      Lyra had a very cool, but very complex reactor - a liquid metal one (without going into technical details). It was too much at the time. There is a suspicion that this type of reactor will be in Haski.
      1. Chaldon48 April 15 2020 19: 15 New
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        Lead and bismuth alloys were used in the reactor; when it solidifies, stop the reactor; there is a problem of dampening; I do not know how much it is solved now.
    2. Charik April 15 2020 18: 08 New
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      They buried the titan under the ground and the little ones spend on the plane and sell it abroad
  • ares1988 April 15 2020 09: 38 New
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    Well, ash-tree zircons will not be so soon: https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/news-568244-cirkon-s-podvodnoy-lodki-zapustyat-cherez-4-5-let/
    Virginia, in turn, will not remain without hypersound: https://topwar.ru/168124-amerikanskie-apl-klassa-virdzhinija-pervymi-poluchat-giperzvukovye-rakety.html
    1. bars1 April 15 2020 10: 20 New
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      Virginia will be hypersonic at best until 2028.
      1. ares1988 April 15 2020 12: 10 New
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        Yes. But even then, zircon on ash trees, if it will be regular, then at about the same time (plus or minus).
  • Operator April 15 2020 11: 41 New
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    "Ash" and "Laika" are outdated, not having time to be born. The nuclear submarine Ala Virginia is of no interest to anyone except the idolaters of the cargo cult.

    On the ICAPL fig, 40-50 missiles, when only a couple of Zircons with 250-Kt warheads at a distance of +900 km after 6 minutes of flying time is guaranteed to drown the AB and disable the rest of the AUG craft? At the same time, it will be possible to score on all anti-submarine missile launchers with a multiple smaller radius of the PLO zone.

    In this connection, ICAPL torpedoes are needed only as a means of fighting enemy submarines, and not surface boats, and torpedoes in their performance characteristics must be better than torpedoes - because this requires non-cramped "Cases" (another cargo cult product with a ridiculous speed of 100 km / h), but purely domestic Shkvaly-2 with a speed of 360 km / h, an induction GNS and a range of about 20 km for the safe use of special warheads.

    A minimum of ammunition, consisting of the most effective missiles and torpedoes, will ensure minimum displacement and the value of the nuclear submarine’s physical fields, which will make it possible to hammer a bolt on the style icon of cargo worship idolaters - anti-submarine aircraft.

    This will make it possible for the first time since the 18th century to make the domestic fleet deadly, practically invulnerable and, most importantly, massive, and not to extrude the floating farewells of the "goodbye homeland" of the Gorshkov type.
    1. V.I.P. April 15 2020 13: 50 New
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      How will they detect a moving target over 900 km? Targeting satellites as in the USSR in the Russian Federation are not .....
      1. Ponchik78 April 15 2020 16: 04 New
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        Yes, it seems) MKRC “Liana”
        1. V.I.P. April 15 2020 16: 12 New
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          Come on. How many satellites were then and now? What shred of the oceans "Liana" covers? ... It was under the USSR that they watched the entire expanse of water)
          1. Ponchik78 April 15 2020 18: 56 New
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            Do you really know how many satellites are in Liana? And how many of them really need, taking into account modern technology?
      2. AB0877 April 16 2020 12: 44 New
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        USSR-MKRC "Legend". Grouping replenished as needed or tasks. In St. Petersburg, in the early 2000s, a book was published. During the Falkland crisis, ours saw the operational situation of mines. 2 times a day ... and slowly shared it with the argi. Did not help.
        RF - "Liana". According to rumors - there is only a segment of RTR.
        And is it necessary in existing realities?
    2. Fizik M April 15 2020 14: 51 New
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      Quote: Operator
      because it requires non-golimy "Cases"

      fool
      DO YOU REALLY SOMETHING about the "Case" you know what to make such statements?

      Quote: Operator
      with 250 Ktn warheads at a range of +900 km after 6 minutes of flight time, it is guaranteed to drown AV

      face from sleep (s lol ) grabbing at the "vigorous club" to talk about Bikini does not make sense (throw beads ...)

      Quote: Operator
      but purely domestic "Squalls-2"

      fool
      short - NO SUCH
      this is YOUR wet fantasy
    3. bayard April 15 2020 17: 27 New
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      Quote: Operator
      On fig ICAPL 40-50 missiles

      In order that not only sea targets can be the goals of such a submarine. With such ammunition, it will handle the coastal infrastructure quite well, and go deeper into the continent for 2 km. (For Caliber) or 000 km. (For Caliber-M), and Zircon will take a walk on high-priority targets. Even in conventional execution it will be a very significant salvo, and in a special ... medium-sized state will be removed ... from the belligerents.
      On the "Pike-B" were "Grenades" with JBCH, and it was serious. But the BC is small. BC Ash-M will have 40 Zircons, Onyx, Caliber-M, or 50 ordinary Caliber. It is indeed, in the broad sense, a MULTI-PURPOSE submarine, capable of affecting the course of the conflict even alone, and it justifies its high price. Since to all of the above has excellent sonar and stealth.

      You understand, Andrei, nuclear submarines, by definition, cannot be cheap - nuclear power plants, sonar, avionics, etc. Even in a small displacement with limited BC, this will be a rather expensive product. So let's say we decide to reduce the price and dimension of Ashen - we exclude the missile weapons compartment and leave only the SL.
      How much will the price go down?
      What about combat capabilities?
      The same Lira, in spite of its modest size and small crew, was very expensive and difficult to maintain. Here, if you squeeze the maximum return on the pledged funds, it’s worth going exactly in the opposite direction - increasing the multipurpose submarine’s BC to expand and diversify their capabilities to solve the widest possible range of combat missions.
      Here you have described one of these tasks - attacking the enemy’s AHG according to external target designation. If you are lucky, everything can happen this way.
      And if you're out of luck? Let’s say TS is out of date and the rockets go into milk and the attack must be repeated?
      And if the goal is not a single AUG, but a group of AUG operating in the area?
      And if the BZ - the search and destruction of the Atlantic convoy, which stretched for hundreds of kilometers?
      And what to do such a small submarine, even after a successful attack on the AUG? Go to reload to the base?
      After all, she had already shot her scanty supply of missiles.
      And the goals in the sea are still full ...
      Quote: Operator
      purely domestic Shkvaly-2 with a speed of 360 km / h, induction HPS and a range of about 20 km for the safe use of special warheads.

      To attack with such a means of destruction, it is necessary to approach the enemy at a distance of LESS THAN 20 km. ! And who will allow you this in a combat situation, if the enemy is able to detect you at a distance many times more, and torpedoes hit him at a distance of 50 (!!!) km. ?
      In addition, the caliber of such missiles (if sclerosis has not changed) is 650 mm. , and this is a weapon for a fairly large submarine. Not for Piranha.
      In addition, the launch of such a torpedo missile immediately unmasks you.
      Quote: Operator

      A minimum of ammunition, consisting of the most effective missiles and torpedoes, will ensure minimum displacement and the value of the nuclear submarine’s physical fields, which will make it possible to hammer a bolt on the style icon of cargo worship idolaters - anti-submarine aircraft.

      Submarine planes even DEPL quite successfully detect, in which the physical fields are more modest, and there is no such a thermal trace (like the nuclear submarines), and their dimensions themselves are what you advocate.
      If the enemy’s PLA dopekla, disperse it with your fighter aircraft. It is much simpler and more reliable.
      Quote: Operator
      rather than extrude the floating troughs "goodbye homeland" like "Gorshkov".

      Well, what did this frigate do not please you?
      A fully balanced ship of its class, worthy of becoming one of the main ships of the future fleet ...
      If you want to have a lot of small and secretive submarines - hunters, you need to quickly sculpt your VNEU or supply your diesel-electric submarines with sufficiently energy-consuming batteries. And to entrust this work to them.
      1. Operator April 15 2020 19: 51 New
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        Look at things in terms of the nature of TMV and the puzzle will turn out.

        With the land objectives of the Navy of the Russian Federation and without ICAPL will figure it out - with the help of the Poseidon NPA. The task of the ICAPL is to sink the AUG up to the approach to the line of attack of targets on Russian territory, plus drowning along the course of the KUG, which get in the way. Optional - strike with Zircons against Washington and other small US command centers with a flight time of 6 minutes. Atlantic convoys will not have to be heated due to the destruction of port infrastructure on both sides of the ocean. After the start of a nuclear conflict, replenishment of ammunition at naval bases will become impossible due to the destruction of the bases.

        Missile torpedoes are needed by ICAPL to defend themselves from enemy nuclear submarines, which are armed with blade torpedoes with four times lower speed.

        To accomplish this limited range of tasks, it is quite enough to have a hundred ICLMs with a displacement of one thousand tons each, with an order of magnitude smaller sonar signature than the enemy’s nuclear submarines, with a dozen rocket torpedoes, a dozen hypersonic missiles and a dozen small-caliber torpedoes on board.

        I have not heard about at least one discovery of a modern diesel submarine at a distance of 900 km from the center of the AUG / KUG order.

        Frigates / corvettes are bad in that they can not solve a single problem in TMV, and they eat money exorbitantly.

        And in general, the repetition of moves in the armament structure behind the main enemy is nothing more than terpile tactics, which as a result will have tolerant armed forces, which we observe on the example of the Russian Navy since the Crimean War.
        1. bayard April 16 2020 00: 12 New
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          Quote: Operator
          With the land objectives of the Navy of the Russian Federation and without ICAPL will figure it out - with the help of the Poseidon NPA.

          Eco You Swung! lol
          Do they have any?
          Well, let's say soon they will, it’s not for nothing that carriers build them.
          Suppose they wash away the enemy a couple of hundred kilometers from the coastline ... they will sink England ... A new beautiful world will come ...
          This is if TMV happens.
          It is when the Poseidons are already operational and ready to drown everyone.
          What about her?
          TMV?
          How to observe the vital interests of the beloved Fatherland?
          Off the coast?
          Protect your allies and assets in Latin America?
          Poseidon?
          That raises the question edge-to cover Venezuela from American aggression.
          What we are going to do ?
          Whom to send?
          Let's just say - by the end of this year such a question will arise if?
          But we’ll take it, and send two of our new frigates 22350 there (the second one should be operational just about to begin) ... a couple of BDKs with a battalion of the Marine Corps ... and MAPL Severodvinsk to cover them from under the water (if two brand new Ash-Ms will not enter service yet), a sea tugboat (where without it), a tanker and a support ship.
          There is no Zircon in service yet, but there is Onyx and this is also serious ...
          What do we get on missiles?
          32 anti-ship missiles in frigates, this is the maximum, if you exclude from the Caliber ammunition, including missile-torpedo submarines.

          Few .
          But from under the water, our small detachment of ships covers ONE MAPL Severodvinsk, which has in the BC ... more (!) 32 anti-ship missiles Onyx.
          Total - already 64.
          Breathing is getting easier.
          But then, right after the acceptance tests, forced march, ALSO two MAPLs of the Yasen-M type come to the aid of our group (they should be put into operation before the end of this year).
          With 40 RCC on board each.
          And the volley power of our small group immediately rises to 144 missiles in one volley.
          And this is not counting the coastal complexes and aviation, which certainly will also be.
          You also noticed how the situation changed after the arrival of these ... only two MAPL?
          And while the surface group still has 32 missiles ...

          This is how the alignment of forces on a possible theater of operations on distant shores, with the arrival of a total of 2 submarines, changes freely.
          Which will go into service before the end of this year.

          Can you imagine how the arrival of forces would change at least ONE ... "Borey-K"?
          With 112 KR on board?

          And to discuss the possibility of creating \ building 100 (STA !!!) nuclear submarines with a displacement of 1000 tons (?!) and ammunition in 10 reactive torpedoes with a caliber of 650 mm. , ten ... what do you have there ... cruise missiles (?), and ten torpedoes of "small caliber" ... even discussing is a sin. The arsenal you proposed has already surpassed BC Varshavyanka ... about two times in size and weight, as well as almost twice as much in numbers ...

          Ash is expensive, but worth it.
          “Borey-K” will be cheaper than “Ash” one and a half times, but will exceed almost three times in the number of salvo.
          And at the same time, both are able to conduct an effective fight against the enemy’s nuclear submarines.
          At ANY point in the world's oceans.
          What your piranhas can never do.
          Yes, they will never be.

          Let’s get better about air defense and its radio-technical component, it’s still closer to you.
          Yes, and me too.
          hi bully
          1. Operator April 16 2020 01: 26 New
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            I apologize, but I did not understand how 144 conventional Caliber off the coast of Venezuela will help us withstand US Navy.
            1. bayard April 16 2020 02: 26 New
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              You inattentively read, not “Caliber”, but RCC, in this case “Onyx”, to counter the US Navy’s ships \ to indicate a threat to them.
              And, of course, they are not alone, but coastal complexes, and aviation ... both transferred by us, and available from Venezuela.
              And non-conventional ... this is at the discretion of management.

              And believe me, 144 Onyx is a lot.
              The United States, for example, has none.

              And what if the 144 Zircon?
              Well, that will be later.

              And, by the way, on the supply ship there may be sufficient ammunition for subsequent reloading.

              In case of conflict, the damage will not be acceptable.
              1. Operator April 16 2020 06: 19 New
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                We are talking about the direction of development of the Russian Navy, which is why promising types of armaments are mentioned - the Zircon GKR, the Poseidon NPA and the proposed one-kilometer ICAPL with the same nuclear warhead with the Poseidon.

                In peacetime, our fleet has nothing to do off the coast of Venezuela (Gabon, Philippines, etc.) from a word generally except for the landing of expeditionary forces of the Russian Federation in these countries in the presence of external aggression against them by third countries that do not possess nuclear weapons. But then all the ground forces and aviation will solve all the problems (as in Syria), the convoy of supply transports will fall to the fleet, which will perfectly cope with the corvettes with anti-torpedoes and single-kilometer ICAPLs in the Zircon tracking mode with conventional warheads.

                In wartime, it makes no sense to place the fleet within the range of enemy coastal aviation — to destroy the latter, there are remote weapons such as ICBMs and SLBMs, plus promising Poseidon anti-aircraft missiles.

                PS Why to distill the "roaring cow" in the person of the Borey SSBN (as compared to the one-kilo ICAPL) directly to the US PLO zone?
                1. bayard April 16 2020 09: 24 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  We are talking about the direction of development of the Russian Navy, which is why promising types of armaments are mentioned - the Zircon GKR, the Poseidon NPA and the proposed one-kilometer ICAPL with the same nuclear warhead with the Poseidon.

                  His (development) has already been directed.
                  And there is no and will not be any ICAPL in the lists of this direction.
                  Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
                  Quote: Operator
                  In peacetime, our fleet has nothing to do off the coast of Venezuela (Gabon, Philippines, etc.) from a word in general

                  This is not for you to decide, but for now, the question of creating a naval and air base in Venezuela is being considered (in practical terms).
                  Quote: Operator
                  what corvettes can do perfectly

                  CORVETTE?
                  Are you raving
                  These are littoral ships!
                  Quote: Operator
                  Why distill the "roaring cow" in the person of the SSBN "Borey"

                  One of the most quiet submarines of our time.
                  Quote: Operator
                  (in comparison with the single-kilo ICAPL)

                  Be afraid, THERE will never be.
                  NONE-YES.
                  Quote: Operator
                  PS why

                  Because one provides a salvo equivalent to one and a half - to two nuclear-powered cruisers of the Nakhimov type.
                  No need for the fleet.
                  It is not yours at all.
                  1. Operator April 16 2020 09: 49 New
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                    Ty, the regiment of idolaters of the cargo cult arrived - the cruiser "Terpila" to help you laughing
                2. Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 38 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  promising types of weapons - NPA "Poseidon" and the proposed single-kilometer ICAPL with the same nuclear warhead with "Poseidon".

                  fool
                  Quote: Operator
                  "roaring cow" in the person of the SSBN "Borey"

                  as they say "sometimes it's better to chew" than to flog such nonsense lol
          2. 3danimal April 16 2020 03: 27 New
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            The Marine Battalion will not cope with the armies of the neighbors of Venezuela. Russia has no experience in conducting wars (and supplying forces) at such a distance, and this is much more complicated.
            The coastal forces of the “neighbors” may have anti-ship missiles, which is very difficult for the corvette to defend against, and each strike (with warhead 150-200kg) deprives them of combat readiness.
            I am sure that someone who does undermine the forces and economy of the Russian Federation would be very interested in drawing us into such a conflict.
            1. bayard April 16 2020 03: 37 New
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              Venezuelan neighbors throughout Latin America have neither such armed forces nor such weapons. Their army is strong enough, but they need a demonstration of external support, as it was before.
              And I do not advocate war on other continents. By a similar example, I only demonstrated the value of such a combat unit as the MAPL Ash and Ash-M.
              And that’s it. bully
              1. Operator April 16 2020 06: 29 New
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                Demonstration of external support in the form of a flag demonstration is a typical borrowing of the experience of the US Navy of the past century.

                Much more relevant would be a demonstration of the type of training shots by the Zircon GKR from the one-cylinder ICAPL at a distance of 900 km in the immediate vicinity of the potential aggressor or ascent of the Poseidon NPP 6 miles (US border) from the mouth of the Hudson River after approaching the ascent point to creeping and retreating speeds at maximum depth / speed.

                Not to mention the sudden command and staff exercises of the Strategic Missile Forces with the launch of ICBMs under television cameras from the position of minute readiness.

                And the flag can always be drawn on board the missiles or raised above the normative documents at the time of ascent bully
                1. Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 39 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  firing range GKR "Zircon" from the board of a one-kilon ICAPL

                  fool
          3. Nemchinov Vl April 17 2020 15: 07 New
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            Quote: bayard
            Ash is expensive, but worth it.
            I welcome Vitaliy !! hi
            Our thoughts quite often coincide with you, but repeat in this particular case, it seems to me that a part of Andrey’s considerations makes a little more sense. winked
            Quote: bayard
            ... from under the water our small detachment of ships covers ONE MAPL Severodvinsk ...
            unfortunately, he is far from being “noiseless” as they originally wanted to present him to us ... sad
            Quote: bayard
            But then, right after the acceptance tests, forced march, two more ASLs of the Ash-M type come to the aid of our group
            and if everything was smooth with them, then the transfer of “Kazan” would not have dragged out so much ... apparently, there were jambs “in reserve” ... recourse
            Quote: bayard
            And by the way , on a supply ship there may be enough BC for a subsequent recharge.
            guarded by only two frigates 22350 against the KUG or AUG of the probable adversary, on a campaign across the Atlantic ?! to Venezuela for example, during the period of aggravation of the situation, on the verge of armed conflict ?! winked
            Therefore, I personally am more inclined to the fact that the feasibility of ICAPLs, much smaller than Yasen-M (in the VI 3800-5500 tons), but of a larger amount, makes sense.
            Quote: bayard
            And the volley power of our small group immediately rises to 144 missiles in one volley.
            already the first mass salvo of the Kyrgyz Republic from VPU, unmasks the submarine. Therefore, their number is 32-40 pcs. ?! Well, I have rather big doubts, for two reasons at once. Firstly, it is much easier for the enemy to control the sites of probable patrols of Ashen-M (in the amount of 3-5 units, in the next 5-6 years) than if they were built in their place respectively 6-10 ICAPLs of smaller VI (for the same means) where, in addition to torpedoes, there would be 8 maximum 10 VPU for KR ... smile just imagine, hypothetically, the construction program is not "Ash-M", but a certain analogue of "Barakuda-Lira" (a little more compressed in size, taking into account new / modern technological solutions, and the level of automation of the last of the examples). With let's say 6 TA and 8-10 VPU for KR. Smaller size and number of VPU mines (reduce cost each ship and time its construction), as well as the level of visibility of physical fields, of each ICAPL, and the ability to be detected from above, in the wake of displaced water, during movement, due to a significantly lower VI !!! fellow
            Quote: bayard
            ... "Borey-K" will be cheaper than "Ash" one and a half times, but will exceed almost three times in the number of salvo ...
            There will be no !! The bulk of the price, namely in equipment associated with the number of installed weapons systems (and not just the size of the hull) !!! On the contrary, he threatens to become “gold” with 112 VPU for the Kyrgyz Republic ?!
            Quote: bayard
            And there is no and will not be any ICAPL in the lists of this direction.
            But this is sad, if so ?! recourse
            Quote: bayard
            Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
            Well, for the 10 Ashes already under construction (in the Navy's programs), there really is no need for exactly 100 ICAPLs (smaller sizes) !!! There will be plenty of them in the amount of about 16-18 units divided between the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, since there will be a dozen Ash-trees. what yes
            Quote: bayard
            ...Because one provides volley ...
            Please understand that just one, the boat’s large size, it will be easier for the probable enemy to track, blocking the areas of its probable appearance, and to take on escort / sight, and destroy before launching the KR ... It seems to me that Andrei (Operator) tried to tell you exactly about this “side” medals "... And I admit that I have such a point of view, hi largely in agreement.
            It seems that before the collapse of the USSR, it was a large number of not very large ICAPMs (but already quite low-noise RTMKs at that time) that infuriated our probable opponents, making it clear that they simply could not be physically tracked !!!
            - On February 29, 1996, during a NATO fleet exercise, after successfully completing a mission to detect conditional enemy submarines, an undetected Russian submarine contacted the ships asking for help. Soon, in the middle of the NATO warrant order, a submarine surfaced that was recognized by British sailors as Project 971 Schuka-B. One of the crew members of the boat needed urgent medical attention due to peritonitis that developed after the operation to remove the appendix, sources often indicate the cause of the disease - an acute attack of appendicitis [4]. A sick submariner was delivered to the British Glasgow destroyer, . The British sailors then made a mistake: in front of them was the K-448 Tambov nuclear submarine [5] of Project 671RTMK, and not the Pike-B [6].(https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_671%D0%A0%D0%A2%D0%9C(%D0%9A)_%C2%AB%D0%A9%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B0%C2%BB)
            1. bayard April 17 2020 18: 21 New
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              Greetings to Vladimir. hi
              It is necessary to immediately determine that the MAPL Yasen-M series is already under construction and finalizing and finishing activities. And there's nothing to be done about it. The fact that not everything is going smoothly - obviously, due to delays in handing over to the fleet the head "Ash-M" is obvious. As it is obvious that they will be brought into service. That is, they, without a doubt, will become operational and will carry out military services. And so I tried to show their combat value and the range of tasks that they will perform in priority order. And as an example, he cited one of the hypothetical tasks of supporting a friendly state and NOT AVOIDING aggression against it.
              The fleet of modern Russia is not able at the moment to detach large forces of surface ships for such an operation, especially - ships carrying modern missile weapons.
              The choice is still small.
              But there is a submarine fleet with the head MAPL Severodvinsk, with all its problems, but the task will not be to hunt for the enemy’s nuclear submarines (at least not the main one), but to create a threat to the enemy’s surface ships with their anti-ship missiles from the area covered by surface ships , aviation and coastal facilities. A kind of underwater arsenal under the cover of surface forces off the coast of a friendly state.
              And this arsenal (at Severodvinsk) is equal to the arsenal of two frigates covering it.
              And to protect from enemy submarines, it is wiser to use one of the serviceable Shchuk-B.
              Precisely as about ARSENAL, in this case, I was talking.
              And the hypothetical arrival of two more Ashen-Ms (the Baltic Fleet and Northern Fleet surface ships will ensure their withdrawal to the Atlantic - rustling with screws and depicting active exercises and maneuvers.
              I see the main value of Asheni-M in this as a secretive delivery to the shores of a potential enemy of 40 Caliber-M missiles (range of about 4500 km.) And / or Zircon (range of at least 1000 km., In which there is little doubt, for its air hypostasis will have about 1500 km.).
              A volley of one such MAPL at 40 Cr with nuclear warheads will be able to withdraw from the war any medium-sized state, or paralyze one of the US coasts, taking out their command centers, bases, SPRN, large radar stations, arsenals, etc. , as well as attacks on the enemy’s AUG and KUG with timely targeting of them.
              This, I see, is the main task of these nuclear submarines, and not the hunt for the enemy nuclear submarines or their sea convoys.
              However, having fired back (in the case of a real war), Yasen-M could well be engaged in other tasks more typical for MAPL using torpedoes, mines and missile defense from TA ... if the latter were in its arsenal.
              But the fact that it was for the underwater war of classic MAPLs that the cat wept, the fault of weak (to put it mildly) ship repair. Carrying out timely repairs and modernization of Barakud, Pike-B, etc., we would not now have such a deplorable state of this segment of submarine forces.
              But ... There are three reasons, as always - lack of funding, lack of sufficient capacity and personnel for ship repair, and as the main reason - the lack of comprehensive planning in the development of the fleet, i.e. - quality management.
              Quote: Nemchinov Vl
              Quote: bayard
              ... "Borey-K" will be cheaper than "Ash" one and a half times, but will exceed almost three times in the number of salvo ...
              Will not be !! The bulk of the price, namely in equipment associated with the number of installed weapons systems (and not just the size of the hull) !!! On the contrary, he threatens to become “gold” with 112 VPU for the Kyrgyz Republic ?!

              Allow me to disagree with you all the same. In the version of the SLBM carrier, the Bore-A costs about 600 million dollars. That is, almost TWO times cheaper than Yasenya-M. It would seem a paradox, but it is. In the version of the CD carrier, it will cost a little more, BUT not by much ... let's say ... 700 million dollars. But at the same time, the cost of ammunition from the Kyrgyz Republic is unlikely to exceed, but rather will be significantly lower than the cost of the Bulava SLBM.
              In any case, Borey-K will be about one and a half times cheaper than Yasen-M, but at the same time it will have excellent stealth (low noise) and an arsenal of 112 KR, instead of 40 - 50 KR on Yasen-M (50 KR - in case of equipment of the Kyrgyz Republic "Caliber").
              And it will also be an excellent arsenal of the Kyrgyz Republic, more capacious and cheaper, but it should also be deployed under the cover of surface forces. It will very significantly strengthen the missile salvo of any KUG, while also covering the KUG from under water.
              As for the need for the fleet in the MAPL more compact than the Yasen-M format, I absolutely agree with you, and until recently I thought that such would be Husky \ Laika, but recent rumors have reported that VI for It is planned in 11 - 000 tons! But this does not climb into any gates. Do they want to build another series of “arsenals” like “Ashen-M”? It is much more reasonable to build 13-000 Boreev-K for the future shift of the Baton and close the question on this subject. And to build “Husky \ Likes” as underwater hunters of moderate VI, with which 6 torpedoes and 8 missiles in the UVP would be quite enough. In dimensions "Pike-B".
              And talk about the possibility of creating a MAPL VI in 1000 tons. belay I consider it not serious at all. And not worthy of consideration.
              And you, I think, have the same opinion. Need to think in real terms.
              Quote: Nemchinov Vl
              Quote: bayard
              Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
              Well, for the 10 Ashes already under construction (in the Navy's programs), there really is no need for exactly 100 ICAPLs (smaller sizes) !!! There will be plenty of them in the amount of about 16-18 units divided between the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, since there will be a dozen Ash-trees.

              I absolutely agree with this.
              9 - 10 Yasenei-M, 6 - 8 Borey-K, up to 20 MAPLs in the VI Shchuki-B or Barakuda, about 60 diesel-electric submarines - it would be nice to have multipurpose submarine forces in service.

              And one more remark.
              One "Borey-K" without the BK will cost about 600 - 700 million dollars. , this is about the same as the cost of ONE frigate 22350, and less than how much it will cost 22350M. But the salvo of such an underwater missile carrier will surpass the surface ship equal in price to it ... ATTENTIVELY.
              This is about financial efficiency and feasibility.
              hi drinks
        2. Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 10 New
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          Quote: Operator
          With the land objectives of the Navy of the Russian Federation and without ICAPL will figure it out - with the help of the Poseidon NPA.

          just smile fool
          Quote: Operator
          The task of the ICAPL is to sink the AUG up to the approach to the line of attack of targets on Russian territory, plus drowning along the course of the KUG, which get in the way.

          I sympathize
          hard to live in a country of pink ponies
          lol
          Quote: Operator
          Missile torpedoes are needed by ICAPL to defend themselves from enemy nuclear submarines, which are armed with blade torpedoes with four times lower speed.

          which they can use from distances MULTIPLE greater than the range of the SPR
          Quote: Operator
          I have not heard about at least one discovery of a modern diesel submarine at a distance of 900 km from the center of the AUG / KUG order.

          wassat
          the costs of YOUR "pink pony country"
          etc.
    4. bk0010 April 15 2020 19: 09 New
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      Quote: Operator
      "Ash" and "Laika" are outdated, not having time to be born.
      I won’t argue here.
      Quote: Operator
      On the ICAPL fig, 40-50 missiles, when only a couple of Zircons with 250-Kt warheads at a distance of +900 km after 6 minutes of flying time is guaranteed to drown the AB and disable the rest of the AUG craft?
      There are no zircons yet. And maybe not. But there is a task. Therefore, the boat must be equipped to fulfill it. Yes, a pair of special warheads can disable AUG. But for the probability of their delivery to the target to be acceptable, it is necessary that a bunch of missiles fly with them, so that the air defense forces are forced to try to destroy them all, and not focus on nuclear weapons. In the USSR it was considered that in order to push Aegis AUG you need 20-24 Granites, of which 4-6 with special warheads. Proceeding from this, boats were built (Antei, for example). And it would be nice to be able to repeat the strike, since the special warhead can be not only on anti-ship missiles, but also on anti-aircraft missiles. Making two small boats with 12 missiles will cost more, and if one of them dies, the task will still not be completed.
      Quote: Operator
      and purely domestic Shkvaly-2 with a speed of 360 km / h, induction GNS and a range of about 20 km
      Flurry is a very specific weapon. It does not have a guidance head, but has a short range. It could be useful in a situation where the USSR boat did not hear the US boat, but suspected that it was nearby. Then our captain could launch a Flurry and the enemy would be forced to reveal himself by starting to take measures to evade (special warheads are not a joke), instead of destroying the USSR nuclear submarines. When both boats do not see each other, a Flurry is not needed.
      1. Operator April 15 2020 20: 02 New
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        Even if the United States or China develop air defense systems for intercepting hypersonic missiles at an altitude of 40 km or in the process of performing anti-aircraft maneuvers when diving at a target, there is always a good old “first-second” attack method - a special warhead of a leading missile without entering the air defense zone extinguishes enemy’s radars, Special warhead of a guided missile incapacitates surface ships AUG / KUG.

        The Shkval-2 rocket torpedo (if the Zircon GKR is also in the ammunition kit) is designed to destroy the enemy’s nuclear submarines, which have nothing to counter underwater weapons with 200-knot speed, a range of 20 km, an induction seeker and a special warhead range that exceeds the radius of action anti-torpedo.
        1. Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 40 New
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          Quote: Operator
          Jet torpedo "Flurry-2"

          fool
          to live in a world of pink ponies - YOUR right
          however, keep YOUR wet fantasies (not related to reality)
    5. pmkemcity April 18 2020 12: 18 New
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      Corrected karma to the faithful. And then the atheists came running ... All right, comrade says, only the ammunition at the boat should be large. In case of war, when will it be possible to replenish it? Probably never.
  • xomaNN April 15 2020 13: 11 New
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    I had enough mind in the difficult 90s to save Sevmash. In my time (the beginning of the 80s) it was called the NSR. And they started the work of those years - it’s not lost. I'm glad that the completely new submarines went into series
  • VohaAhov April 15 2020 13: 21 New
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    The Severodvinsk submarine has eight vertical missile shafts behind the slide rail, and the new Kazan has ten. Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles
    Ilya, how accurate is your information that there are 10 (ten) missile mines at Kazan? And that 5 Caliber are placed in each mine? How many open sources of information have not been studied everywhere it is said that Kazan (like Severodvinsk) has 8 (eight) missile mines and each is designed for 4 missiles (Caliber, Onyx or Zircon).
    In your picture comparing “Kazan” and “Severodvinsk” on “Kazan” 10 torpedo tubes are drawn, and not 8, as you say. Perhaps you have inserted the wrong picture. At the airbase there is a more suitable one.
    And now about the Husky. Judging by the photographs of the model, on this submarine there are no vertical missile shafts, and there are only torpedo tubes. Launch from the torpedo tubes "Zircons" and "Onyx" is not possible.
    In all other respects, the article is quite informative and interesting.
  • 3danimal April 15 2020 20: 43 New
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    . Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles.

    What is it like? Shove 5 rockets into four pipes? what
    1. bars1 April 15 2020 22: 42 New
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      5 TPK with Caliber or 4 TPK with Onyx are placed in one mine.
      1. 3danimal April 16 2020 03: 16 New
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        Apparently we are talking about different launchers smile (confused with UKKS)
    2. Kalmar April 15 2020 23: 16 New
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      Let's say this is what a likely adversary looks like:
      1. VohaAhov April 16 2020 14: 41 New
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        And here it may look with us

  • Wasilii April 16 2020 14: 35 New
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    "By the way, it can be seen as a good illustration of the evolution of Russian multi-purpose submarines." ----- Holy words. These things have changed to cartoons and models.
  • exo
    exo April 16 2020 21: 21 New
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    It's not bad, on paper. But, as has been repeatedly discussed at the forum: noisiness is by no means the only unmasking sign. Let's hope this will be taken into account in new projects.
  • Connor MacLeod April 17 2020 23: 32 New
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    An NK package would be put on it, a good thing ...
    1. agond 4 June 2020 10: 28 New
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      On the topic of why and why, with the large displacement of our submarines, they have such a small ammunition load, and in fact it is small, if next to the same Borem it would be an insignificant pile to put all his weapons in it, there are two reasons
      1 the usual two-hull structure of the boat forces first to increase the volume of its strong hull, and then the size of the outer "light"
      2 the habit of storing weapons, torpedoes and missiles inside a sturdy enclosure, which is already full of everything
      3, the habit of firing a torpedo or rocket from a solid hull to the outside requires a special gateway, a torpedo tube, which also occupies an internal volume, moreover, these devices have to be concentrated in an amount of 6 to 10 in one place, and rockets are used to put vertically or at an angle of 45 * ,
      These habits are the main reasons for the low percentage of weapons in the displacement of submarines, the solution suggests itself,
      1 limit the use of double-hull submarine design,
      2 torpedoes and missiles should be stored in containers on the outside of a sturdy hull, and for its use just dump the container or push it out
  • merkava-2bet 17 June 2020 14: 58 New
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    Again, rioting riot for the fleet, again hemorrhoids for industry and the rear.