Military Review

They asked "Ashen". How has one of the most dangerous Russian submarines changed

143

Hello from 90's



On April XNUMXth of this year, an important event took place: the Americans introduced in operation a new multipurpose submarine of the fourth type Virginia - USS Delaware. An important event, important primarily for the opponents of the United States, as for the Americans themselves it is almost ordinary: the submarine has already become the eighteenth boat of this type introduced into the US Navy. Previously, the Pentagon also commissioned the three multipurpose Seawolf. They are far from new, but even surpass Virginia in the sum of their qualities, referring to the same generation as it is.

Only one submarine can now compare with these boats in the world - the Russian multi-purpose submarine of project 885 Ash, which has now turned into project 885M. Recall now in the Russian Navy there is only one submarine of this family. It's about being incorporated into the North fleet The Russian Navy back in 2014 submarine K-560 "Severodvinsk". The second such boat, K-561 Kazan, was launched in 2017 and is still being tested. It can be considered as the full-fledged birth of a new type of Russian submarine fleet.

"Severodvinsk" became a long-term construction with a capital letter: it was laid back in 1993, and then de facto mothballed until its best years. Years passed, and the boat was outdated in some respects. "Kazan", which became the first submarine of the upgraded project 885M, is designed to correct this situation. Of course, the combat capabilities of the submarine should increase, and the old "childhood illnesses" should be eliminated. The task, it must be said, is far from being as simple as it seems, and it requires compromises: the new version of Ashen has already lost some of the capabilities of its ancestor.


New old boat


The evolution of the submarine recently drew Izvestia’s attention, although it must be said that they wrote about the differences between the relatively old and conditionally new projects a long time ago. Firstly, the appearance of the submarine has changed. Compared with the Severodvinsk submarine K-561, the Kazan has become shorter: its length is not 139 meters, but 130. The living compartment was cut by four meters. The nose of the submarine has become sharper compared to the lead ship: this is not visible in the photographs, since the main part of the nose of the submarine is hidden under water. The new boat also has increased dimensions of the stern plumage. All this became possible, including through the use of more advanced and compact electronic weapons and automation equipment.


“Since then (since the bookmark of the Severodvinsk submarine. - Approx. Aut.), Much has changed. Improved sonar equipment and a new element base have appeared, says military observer Dmitry Boltenkov. “And it would be foolish not to use it during the construction of the nuclear submarine.” For example, a change in the shape of the nose of the ship may indicate that an antenna of a more advanced, but at the same time compact sonar complex was placed at its tip. ”

The main conceptual difference can be considered a decrease in the number of torpedo tubes. Now there are not ten, but eight. Torpedo tubes, as before, are in the middle of the submarine. They are installed between the internal “strong” and external “light” hull of the ship in the logging area.


According to data from open sources, the ammunition of "Kazan" is 30 torpedoes. What kind of torpedoes these are is another question, the information here is more than contradictory. “Until now, physicist torpedoes have been equipped with project 955 ships of the Borey type and 885 of the Ash type. Ammunition on them is 40 and 30 units, respectively. Now all of them will be replaced by more advanced “Cases”, ”TASS wrote at the end of February 2020.

It is difficult to say how accurate this information is. In any case, it is known that the obsolete Soviet torpedo USET-80 is still in service with the Russian Navy. In the same February, the notorious bmpd block wrote that in the recently published photographs of the torpedo deck of the latest strategic submarine "Borey" you can see the full USET-80 ammunition. “Alas, this is the reality of the Russian Navy,” the author concludes.

Beat Zircon


Of course, torpedoes are only part of the arsenal of Project 885 and 885M submarines. The boat can carry a wide arsenal of missile weapons, in particular, Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles. The Severodvinsk submarine has eight vertical missile shafts behind the slide rail, and the new Kazan has ten. Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles.

Theoretically, they allow us to solve a wide range of problems, in particular, to effectively fight even the most modern surface ships of a potential enemy. On the other hand, it is fair to say that such weapons Now few people will be surprised, as well as their number.

It is appropriate to recall the American Virginia, which for some reason some media consider “worse” than the 885 project. At the same time, it is often overlooked that the promising Virginia Block V should receive an additional VPM (Virginia Payload Module) payload compartment. This is a compartment with 28 vertical launchers, which, together with the already existing twelve launchers, increase their number to 40.


In this regard, Russian specialists have their own conditional answer. We are talking about equipping the Yasen submarine with the new Zircon hypersonic missile, which, according to media reports, will have a range of about 400-600 kilometers at a maximum speed of 4 to 8 Machs (according to some reports, they want to increase the flight speed in the future up to 12 thousand kilometers per hour).

It is worth recalling that in March TASS reported that they intend to use the K-560 Severodvinsk, and not Kazan, for the forthcoming tests of hypersonic Zircon, as previously assumed. Until recently, it was the first submarine of an improved project that they wanted to make a new “test site”, but this was prevented by protracted tests.

However, this does not mean at all that Project 885M boats will not be carriers of a hypersonic missile. In general, the Ministry of Defense wants as many new surface ships and submarines as possible to get new weapons. Earlier, the media had once announced plans to equip Zircon with a promising fifth-generation nuclear submarine of the fifth generation, project 545, known as the Husky and Laika. By the way, it can be considered as a good illustration of the evolution of Russian multi-purpose submarines. If you believe the model shown at the National Center for Defense Management of Russia in December last year, then project 545 will be less than both Severodvinsk and its development in the person of Kazan.

They asked "Ashen". How has one of the most dangerous Russian submarines changed

This will be a relatively small submarine, the trump card of which should be exceptional low noise. Obviously, if the project can be implemented, then these boats will operate for a very long time on a par with project 885 / 885M, until the latter goes into history.
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  1. Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich April 15 2020 05: 48 New
    17
    I am glad that the state finally paid attention to the fleet. New ships, submarines. A new standard of living for the crew and their families. It should be so. People in a sturdy housing risk their lives. Obliged to live with dignity and be respected in their own state.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 April 15 2020 08: 16 New
      +3
      The notorious "Calibers" and "Zircons" are constantly mentioned to the place and out of place by the type - "here they are, which means the end of the adversary, all of them are" fence ", because we are all stronger" ... Yeah, another "super wunderwolf". ... Well, the number of "Ashes" and "Virginias" ... not to mention the "Improved Los Angeles" ...
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar April 15 2020 09: 38 New
        16
        Quote: Snail N9
        The notorious "Calibers" and "Zircons" are constantly mentioned to the place and out of place by the type - "here they are, which means the end of the adversary, all of them are" fenced ", because we are all stronger" ... Yeah, another "supervunderwolf"

        Why out of place? "Calibers" - they are like "Tomahawks": the main weapon of the modern Russian fleet. The complex, on the whole, is very successful and, together with the Onyx, is capable of performing most of the tasks facing the fleet.

        Of course, there is more uncertainty with the Zirconia: it is still not completely clear what this rocket is (and whether it is in principle). When the fleet will have sufficient quantities of it - a big question.

        Quote: Snail N9
        Well, the number of "Ash" and "Virginia"

        There is no point in even comparing (and never was). The role of the fleet is very different for "them" and for us (due to geography), very different economic situation. The number of submarines should not be more than that of "them", but as much as needed in accordance with our military doctrine.
      2. businessv
        businessv April 16 2020 22: 10 New
        0
        Quote: Snail N9
        The notorious "Calibers" and "Zircons" are constantly mentioned to the place and out of place

        Don't be so nervous, colleague! After all, the author just listed the possible options for weapons! And why, I wonder, are they "notorious" ?! Just new weapons! hi
        1. Angry
          Angry April 22 2020 22: 54 New
          0
          I also agree with my friend. We are all chatting and for whom? "Do not boast going to the army, boast walking from the army." Bragging is your own betrayal! We are thus giving the enemy time to take action to neutralize our Miracle Weapon. Losing the surprise effect! Tolley was secrecy in the union ... Nobody knew anything ... And now there is only boasting. For which we will pay.
    2. businessv
      businessv April 16 2020 22: 12 New
      0
      Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
      Obliged to live with dignity and be respected in their own state.

      I wonder who slapped you cons? Just like well-wishers! smile
  2. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich April 15 2020 06: 11 New
    23
    important primarily for the opponents of the United States, since for the Americans themselves it is almost ordinary: the submarine has already become the eighteenth boat of this type introduced into the US Navy.

    The question of who is longer and thicker I think is closed - you can swear how much you want that you have a submarine, but if it is ONE, and the opponent has 18 times more, then who will win is not difficult to guess. request
    Examples when a good amount won an excellent quality mass ...
    1. antivirus
      antivirus April 15 2020 08: 26 New
      +1
      a small spoon - 1, and friends-18. gluttons ...
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 15 2020 11: 09 New
      +8
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Examples when a good amount won an excellent quality mass ...

      So ... the best example is WWII performed by the USA. We will build a cloud of not-so-outstanding tanks, planes and ships, put middling in them - and fill up the enemy’s wunderwafes with a mass.
      Yes, one Panther is worth nine Shermans - but what if the enemy has a dozen of them for each Panther? smile
      1. Courier
        Courier April 15 2020 14: 46 New
        -6
        The Americans had the best planes and ships.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 15 2020 18: 46 New
          +7
          Quote: Courier
          The Americans had the best planes and ships.

          Not at all. The Axis was chasing the prodigies, building breakthrough and excellent TTX, but low-series or unreliable models. And the Yankees took it in a large series.
          What's the use of a pair of "Yamato" if the enemy has already built ten post-Washingtonians? Yes, with "Yamato" they can not be compared - but there are ten!
          "Taiho" and "Shinano" are pretty good - but the enemy releases a standard "Essex" every couple of months.
          Super duper destroyers with long-range oxygen torpedoes? No problem - 175 Fletchers, 67 Sumners, followed by Girings.
          Me-163 and Me-262? Ki-100? Come on, let's just add more Mustangs.
          Guided bombs? Our answer is "Mustangs" and decks + electronic warfare (EMNIP, alteration of old radars).
          1. Courier
            Courier April 15 2020 19: 38 New
            -1
            If the axis produced such super duper super planes, where and which axis had an analogue of the B 29? Who in the world had an analogue of the B 29?
            1. Valdaev
              Valdaev April 16 2020 11: 30 New
              0
              There is such a country, and we know it)))
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 16 2020 14: 03 New
              +2
              Quote: Courier
              If the axis produced such super duper super planes, where and which axis had an analogue of the B 29? Who in the world had an analogue of the B 29?

              Japanese G8N. Here it is - already as a Yankee trophy:
              1. Courier
                Courier April 17 2020 07: 09 New
                +1
                Indeed, much better than the average B 29. Everything as you said yes
              2. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa April 17 2020 16: 12 New
                -1
                Well, better than the B-29, this car has never been.
          2. Sevastiec
            Sevastiec 30 June 2020 15: 50 New
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The Axis was chasing the prodigies

            She could chase from a fence to dinner, but the objective fact is that in many classes, the Germans lagged behind. One cannot categorically say that they excelled everyone in everything. Like everyone else, they did something more successfully, something less.
  3. Thrifty
    Thrifty April 15 2020 06: 18 New
    +7
    11000 tons displacement "small submarine"? It will be more compact, due to the latest equipment, a smaller crew, but more technologically advanced, and more efficient in relation to its "predecessors". It's another matter how many of them the fleet needs, and how many we will actually build them ...
  4. jonht
    jonht April 15 2020 06: 21 New
    0
    The number of "Kolibrov" on Ash can be increased by the variant with Varshovianki launched through torpedo tubes, the question is, is there a need?
    1. Charik
      Charik April 15 2020 17: 35 New
      +3
      If the Russian language is not very good, then at least develop visual memory, read it, remember how it is written and that’s it.
      1. jonht
        jonht April 16 2020 00: 42 New
        0
        Take the corrector and fix it, you have VERY.
  5. Fizik M
    Fizik M April 15 2020 06: 42 New
    +7
    article to put it mildly "nothing" (by the way there is "Physics" on 885, and quite officially - see purchases of gov RI ed. 2534)
    reality:
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=32#p1166837
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=24#p1148066
    https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1891&p=33
    from a stream with MVM
    https://yadi.sk/d/RNSiAlWOtkwU4Q
    1. Orkraider
      Orkraider April 15 2020 15: 52 New
      0
      Greetings!
      And according to the number of physicists there is no tendency to increase in procurement?
      You have not been to VO for a long time. hi
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 15 2020 16: 52 New
        0
        Quote: Orkraider
        And according to the number of physicists there is no tendency to increase in procurement?

        they were purchased in quite commercial quantities
        and photos of works from 6363 in Sevast clearly hint at this
        1. Charik
          Charik April 15 2020 18: 03 New
          0
          That is, maybe at 636 Physics?
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M April 15 2020 18: 39 New
            +2
            Quote: Charik
            That is, maybe at 636 Physics?

            what does "possibly" mean? - there are a lot of photos on the network from their loading at 6363 in Sevastopol, both combat and practical
  6. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity April 15 2020 07: 26 New
    0
    I am tormented by vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA. At what speed can a torpedo be fired so that it does not "break"? Any angle of "first rotation" can be set. Then why not shoot back? What is this monkeying for?
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 09: 57 New
      +4
      Quote: pmkemcity
      Vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA torment me
      This placement of TA is not an end in itself, it allowed to place the nose antenna of the HAK of a much larger size, which means sensitivity.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 06 New
        +2
        Quote: pmkemcity
        Vague doubts about the advisability of using airborne TA torment me
        This placement of TA is not an end in itself, it allowed to place the nose antenna of the HAK of a much larger size, which means sensitivity.

        You have answered sonar now.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 10: 36 New
          +3
          "It is necessary to warn!" © laughing
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 43 New
            +1
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            "It is necessary to warn!" © laughing

            As with everything, size matters in sonar. But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose? I do not know. Maybe someone will argue with me, but I don’t see a fundamental difference. drinks
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity April 15 2020 10: 47 New
              +1
              In addition, all this certainly complicates the process of reloading and storing torpedoes - to store torpedoes longitudinally and then push them diagonally into the TA?
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 11: 08 New
                0
                Quote: pmkemcity
                But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose

                But I think that the TA in the nose at least obscure the antenna from the sides. Regardless of form.
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 10 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  But I think that the TA in the nose at least obscure the antenna from the sides. Regardless of form.

                  Our TAs - to all TA devices! They were prudently located above the antenna, in two rows, and not outboard.
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 11: 12 New
                    0
                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    above antenna
                    Look, not from the sides, so on top. All the same, the submarine is inhabited in three dimensions.
                    1. pmkemcity
                      pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 25 New
                      +3
                      There are other antennas for the "upper hemisphere". And hydroacoustics, so far, works only in one plane.

                      Pay attention to the plastic fairing of the antenna - it is not suitable for breaking ice, mooring lines, etc.
                      1. Fizik M
                        Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 48 New
                        +1
                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        Pay attention to the plastic cowl antenna

                        it is interesting that on a solid foundation (slipway), when you are in the GAK enclosure, you can hear very well what they are doing and say "overboard"
                      2. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity April 17 2020 06: 02 New
                        +1
                        it is interesting that on a solid foundation (slipway), when you are in the GAK enclosure, you can hear very well what they are doing and say "overboard"

                        The fairing is made of sound-transparent material, but close in its properties to water, so that there is no refraction. the baffle is filled with water, and forward ... By the way, the larger the antenna, the more tons of water must be "pumped" in the active mode. There are also cavitation problems. In general, the antenna is a monumental structure, made of real iron. I saw it at the factory.
                      3. Charik
                        Charik April 17 2020 23: 21 New
                        0
                        In order to put HAK into active mode, do you need to pump water into the submarine?
                      4. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity April 18 2020 11: 51 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Charik
                        In order to put HAK into active mode, do you need to pump water into the submarine?

                        The enclosure is always filled with water, but for some kind of work they can pump out water (only on the surface, of course). At 1155 BOD, my classmate, being in an overcoat, miraculously managed to jump out of the enclosure when "accidentally" water went there.
            2. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity April 15 2020 11: 14 New
              +4
              Like this:
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U April 15 2020 14: 07 New
                0
                Thanks for the images. Got a question.
                Quote: pmkemcity
                And hydroacoustics, so far, works only in one plane
                Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below? I know about hydrocline in the most general terms.
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 14 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below? I know about hydrocline in the most general terms.

                  Everything that is accepted, both above and below, everything goes only along the bearing. There are separate antennas for viewing the ice conditions.
                2. Fizik M
                  Fizik M April 16 2020 10: 39 New
                  +1
                  Quote: pmkemcity
                  everything goes only on the bearing

                  Not only
                  amers from the early 60s ("ball" BQQ 1 and 2)
                  we SPDG on the same 971 also worked very well
                3. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity April 16 2020 11: 58 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  Not only
                  amers from the early 60s ("ball" BQQ 1 and 2)
                  we SPDG on the same 971 also worked very well

                  Well ball and ball. So what? Is that the mass-dimensional characteristics are slightly higher. The cylinder is rather easier to manufacture and repair, mathematics, of course, these are trifles, but the same is simpler. And who is that, I apologize for SpDG? Is he your relative?
                4. Fizik M
                  Fizik M April 16 2020 12: 10 New
                  +1
                  Americans set the ball to have a depth of purpose
                  it is very important for the use of torpedoes in the conditions of GPA (see vertically expanding SSN)

                  ShPDG - 7 subsystem MGK-540 ("noise direction finding with the development of distance and depth"), worked very well, but under the condition of competent and well-trained not only and as many operators of the SAC as the KPL
                5. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity April 16 2020 12: 17 New
                  0
                  MGK - 500 in my cadet years only mounted a class. At the level of concepts taught. I don’t see the problem of calculating the angle of inclination of the character of the direction of terrorism, but, as Stanislavsky said, I do not believe it! Only at a short distance, until the first reflection. And again, where does the ball come from?
                6. Fizik M
                  Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 47 New
                  +1
                  Skat KS (MGK-500) has no SHPDG
                  like (I don't know for sure) was on the "Skat-BDRM"
                  on its mathematics in an open and admissible form - see the monograph "Oceanpribor" on GAS
                  It worked, but it required a very thorough and competent (by no means on a dive!) Removal of the ASCV
      2. Podvodnik
        Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 23 New
        +3
        Those. what the boat doesn’t really hear from above and below?


        Above and below, the concept is relative.

        Information "for general understanding":

        It is from below, under the keel-bottom. The depth is measured by an echo sounder. This is a separate device. Sends down "parcels" and receives echoes. The crew knows the depth “under the keel”.
        Up:
        is a "NOR" navigational line detector. Shows the situation over the submarine. A separate device that sends "parcels" up and down. It can be used when searching for a hole when surfacing in ice (for example).
        -This is a "NOC" navigation circular detector. Separate device. Shows the situation over the submarine. "Spinning" like a radar. You can also look at the wave height (for example).

        Actually, the main antenna HAK:
        A hefty "barrel" hung with piezoceramic transducers. The so-called "simultaneous all-round view" is carried out. "Garlands" of radiation patterns are formed around the whole circle (as the submarine body does not shade) and at several angles of inclination. Those. it is not one "flashlight" that turns and "illuminates" everything around "in the forest", but hundreds of lanterns arranged in five (for example) rows at different angles. They simultaneously scan the environment around the submarine (part of it shades the hull). Including at angles. For example (for general understanding): one row of "flashlights" illuminates upwards at +30 degrees, another at +15, the third at "0", the fourth down at -15, the fifth at -30 degrees.
        Thus, the nose antenna of the HHC receives sound beams that "enter" at several angles. All this design of "flashlights" is mobile and does not stand still, constantly scanning the space around.
        The exact characteristics of these devices and complexes, the application, of course, were not disclosed.

        It is possible, by the way, to observe the target along the "lower" beam and practically no target along the "upper" one.

        In general, modern submarines are crammed with a huge amount of technical means of lighting the environment. I think here you can’t even get off with just one article, not like commentary.
      3. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 17 2020 05: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: Podvodnik
        It is possible, by the way, to observe the target along the "lower" beam and practically no target along the "upper" one.

        There is no sense in dividing HN into "flashlights", so, indulge. Multi-beam CN is always worse than single-beam. Nothing prevents you from scanning both vertically and horizontally. Make a "narrow" or "wide" beam. But the display on the IOI has always been "flat".
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M April 15 2020 14: 53 New
    +2
    Quote: pmkemcity
    Our TAs - to all TA devices!

    alas, our TA is a museum junk (with the exception of 677 projects)
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Fizik M
      alas, our TA is a museum junk (with the exception of 677 projects)

      TA as TA. Not a single dozen times on all fours climbed - a piece of iron, it is a piece of iron. And what, I apologize to ask, is the TA 677 fundamentally different from my "native" 877 project?
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 15 2020 18: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: pmkemcity
        And what, I apologize to ask, is the TA 677 fundamentally different from my "native" 877 project?

        for example low-noise shot
      2. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 04: 48 New
        0
        Quote: Fizik M
        for example low-noise shot

        It’s interesting, but what is applied there fundamentally new? Spitting out the torpedo and hiding the bubble is all that can be done (in my understanding of the mine).
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 06 New
        +2
        the question is HOW to do it
        and on 675 and 971 turbines, only the first "roaring cow", and the second ...
      4. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 06: 39 New
        +2
        Everything rests on the culture of performance, "admissions and landing" (not in the sense of secrecy and terms of punishment). Many mechanisms before the first repair - for example, the sailor painted the electric motor, so relish, with oil paint, the foreman is happy, only together with the engine, he painted both the foundation and the supports ... Sound tracks appeared. The bearing is good, but the quality of the casting of the ED housing or the converter is none - distortions, beats. All around trash, in short. I somehow received a batch of axial fans, 52 pcs. different sizes. Of these, only three earned without complaints, another five were able to adjust themselves, the rest was thrown out. And the boats of the 675 and 971 projects are not correct to compare, although 675 also beat the nerves of Americans at one time.
      5. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 51 New
        +4
        briefly and subjectively: while in the CPU, the TA shot on the "Lada" is practically INaudible
        there is no need to talk about how it "usually looks" on our other projects ...
      6. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 07: 00 New
        -1
        Quote: Fizik M
        briefly and subjectively: while in the CPU, the TA shot on the "Lada" is practically INaudible

        Maybe this speaks of good noise isolation of the CPU? The noise of the shot is, of course, important, you can even listen to how the TA covers are opened, but tactically all this does not make much sense. Torpedo noise - yes. If the Americans hear the noise of a shot, and after a second the noise of the Shkval engine, then they will only have exactly one second more time to read the prayer.
      7. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 07: 44 New
        +1
        on pneumatic TA I have only impressions from the experience (and there were details of the type of water entering the compartment in the form of a "horizontal column of water" in the entire section of the TA (it was on the "Pear", TA No. 12)), and on the 3rd knee ( with GGTA) there is not particularly audible, but it is perceived by the "body" - as a shudder of the body
      8. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 08: 07 New
        0
        I heard that the Americans were working on starting the engine in the TA, that is, without air at all. Such a topic will greatly simplify the design, there will be no need to hide the bubble, the trim will not change. I would generally suggest maintenance-free containers, outside a sturdy hull, with a shot in the stern. In this case, the depth and speed of the submarine will not matter.
      9. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 08: 17 New
        +3
        Quote: pmkemcity
        I heard that the Americans were working on starting the engine in the TA, that is, without air at all

        self-exit problems with stealth
        Quote: pmkemcity
        no need to hide the bubble

        hydraulic firing system is familiar to us from 705
        Quote: pmkemcity
        the trim will not change

        it has nothing to do with the type of firing system, but only with the weight and volume of the ammunition
        Quote: pmkemcity
        with a shot in the stern. In this case, the depth and speed of the submarine will not matter.

        depth has nothing to do with this, but for speed it’s better to shoot FORWARD
        the question was completely studied on 675 and 659 projects with KTA
      10. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 09: 04 New
        0
        depth has nothing to do with this, but for speed it’s better to shoot FORWARD

        May be. But I am for the simplification of all systems. Remove everything from the durable case, leave only the CPU and the galley.
      11. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 34 New
        +3
        it’s good that mechanics don’t read it ... laughing
      12. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 11: 47 New
        +1
        Quote: Fizik M
        it’s good that mechanics don’t read it

        The same mechanics overboard! Only trample everywhere, and the handrails from them are dirty. am
      13. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 12: 07 New
        0
        I saw the hold - kill! laughing
      14. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity April 16 2020 12: 45 New
        +1
        By the way, among Americans that everyone hated everyone, at least not so long ago, mechanics went to the submarine commanders. Maybe that's why they have such a low accident rate?
      15. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 20 New
        0
        Amazing dialogue, I'm glad that it arose through my "fault"! )))
      16. Fizik M
        Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 38 New
        0
        their normal accident rate
        another question is that there have been no disasters for a long time
        by the way, after Thresher, a translated copy of Rickover's report was sent to military missions for draconian measures at US, and the industry (which did not need to know about this dock) was shocked to put it mildly (they dug a lot)
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 19 New
      0
      Amazing dialogue, I'm glad that it arose through my "fault"! )))
    3. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity April 16 2020 13: 22 New
      0
      Only talk and talk left. There is a lot of time.
    4. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 16 2020 13: 25 New
      0
      Yeah, I quit drinking, only then I registered here.)) Time appeared and it’s boring without vodka. )))
    5. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity April 16 2020 13: 27 New
      0
      I have 20 liters of alcohol standing under the table for a month. But ... you can’t! For disinfection!
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 50 New
    +2
    the trim will not change


    The trim changes due to the lightening of the "bow" of the boat after the release of the product. And it pulls up. To compensate, water is taken at the TZTs (torpedo replacement tank). The smaller the PL itself, the more noticeable the effect.
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 44 New
    +2
    but perceived by the "body"

    and the ears are also felt by the change in pressure. Exhaust air is vented into the compartment.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 43 New
    +2
    if the air systems "leave something to be desired", then after firing you can also "spit seals" or collect all the contents of the pockets in the VSK after "blowing out" when opening its side door
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 17: 26 New
    +2
    Jokes are bad with pressure. It is necessary to drive the air back in time with the compressors.
    And then really, you can fly out with a side hatch if you have enough forces to open it with a fool.
    On the state, I remember, it was noticeable on the ears. They shot from the heart.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M April 16 2020 18: 34 New
    +2
    Quote: Podvodnik
    you can fly out with a side hatch if you have enough forces to open it with a fool.

    and flew out
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 34 New
    +2
    Everything rests on a performance culture


    In her darling and rests. This is what the "culture of production" is called.
    Different factories, having the same equipment available, manage to produce products with different characteristics.
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 12: 40 New
    +2
    Spit out the torpedo and hide the bubble


    Nobody hides bubbles anywhere (and for a long time already). The product is "spat out" with water.
    Naturally, TA may differ slightly in the "binding" from project to project. But the pipe itself remains a pipe. Well, or the submarine is designed for special loads (immersion depth of 1000 meters, for example). Then not only TA has to be changed. All outboard fittings are recalculated for other loads.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M April 16 2020 15: 40 New
    +2
    Quote: Podvodnik
    The product is "spat out" with water.

    in pneumatic TA - by air
    even at 677
  • Podvodnik
    Podvodnik April 16 2020 17: 22 New
    +2
    in pneumatic TA - by air


    It `s naturally. Something needs to be pushed out. He believed that this "rudiment" was far in the past.
    I drew attention to the photo at the beginning of the article. The "barrel" of SORS (MRKP-59?) Is sticking out again. When will this "rudiment" be altered?
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M April 16 2020 18: 33 New
    +2
    Quote: Podvodnik
    He believed that this "rudiment" was far in the past.

    on 677 this "rudiment" in terms of the shooting system was done very, very well
    but this is Rubin itself, without a full-time developer of TA (PL) Malachite
  • Grits
    Grits April 15 2020 15: 53 New
    +3
    Quote: pmkemcity
    As with everything, size matters in sonar. But a spherical or cylindrical antenna in the nose? I do not know. Maybe someone will argue with me, but I don’t

    In the 90s I went (as a civilian specialist) to test a very interesting ship. Among themselves, he was called "Axon". Was redone from the BDR. instead of a torpedo, there is a whole compartment of racks with equipment, and in front is a huge ball of a new hydroacoustic complex. The diameter was even larger than the diameter of the BDR hull. Therefore, it looked comical - there was a thickening on the nose (with a natural Russian name). Even on the bow on the deck, a "fishing rod" was installed - an external crane antenna for measuring parameters. It was a miracle ... It was on it that the tests of the GAK that are now being put on Borey and Ash (well, or their progenitors)
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity April 15 2020 17: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Gritsa
      The diameter was even larger than the diameter of the body of the BDR.

      The diameter of the antenna depends on the diameter of the housing. The number of hydrophones depends on the diameter of the antenna (this is the number of transceivers in the AFAR). The radiation power in the active mode and the quality of the directivity characteristic depend on the number of hydrophones, on which, in turn, the accuracy of determining the direction to the sound source or response depends. Our antennas were good, but the hydrophones are bad (in the sense of the spread of parameters).
  • Charik
    Charik April 17 2020 23: 18 New
    0
    yusa submarine launches at lower speeds than our submarines (uncle said one thing, I don’t know whether he is a submariner or not)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Peter is not the first
    Peter is not the first April 15 2020 07: 58 New
    +5
    There is a desire that there would be more and more different, but in this case it would be better to have more, but less than different, otherwise there is no seriality so far, each boat is exceptional and unique. When in Russia we will call a series not 2-4 boats, but at least 10 boats of the same modification.
    1. Winnie76
      Winnie76 April 15 2020 08: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Peter is not the first
      When in Russia we will call a series not 2-4 boats, but at least 10 boats of the same modification.

      The cost of Ash is not less than a yard of greenery. Big load on the budget
      1. Peter is not the first
        Peter is not the first April 15 2020 10: 35 New
        +4
        If there was serial production, then the cost of each subsequent serial boat would be less than the head.
  • V.I.P.
    V.I.P. April 15 2020 08: 45 New
    0
    Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes? Foreigners seem to have traps being shot, even someone writes about some anti-torpedoes ...
    1. kjhg
      kjhg April 15 2020 09: 02 New
      +2
      Quote: V.I.P.
      Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes?

      Last year at VO there was a good article on this subject. Look, you can find. If not, ask Andrey from Chelyabinsk or Timokhin. They are in the know.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 16 2020 22: 33 New
        0
        Look, you can find. If not, ask Andrey from Chelyabinsk or Timokhin. They are in the know.

        Correct Fizik M
        however, he already answered
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M April 15 2020 09: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: V.I.P.
      Interestingly, is there anything on these boats to combat torpedoes? Foreigners seem to have traps being shot, even someone writes about some anti-torpedoes ...

      https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
      http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=1891&p=33
      1. V.I.P.
        V.I.P. April 15 2020 13: 47 New
        0
        Thanks for the links. The situation is as I expected. And then these screaming about "does not have an analogue in the world" and a zombie box, some bravura reports produce))) …… ..
  • Chaldon48
    Chaldon48 April 15 2020 09: 08 New
    0
    There was a boat "Lyra", extremely automated and in a titanium hull, but now what?
    1. Grits
      Grits April 15 2020 16: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: Chaldon48
      There was a boat "Lyra", extremely automated and in a titanium hull, and now that

      Lyra had a very cool, but very complex reactor - a liquid metal one (without going into technical details). It was too much at the time. There is a suspicion that this type of reactor will be in Haski.
      1. Chaldon48
        Chaldon48 April 15 2020 19: 15 New
        +1
        Lead and bismuth alloys were used in the reactor; when it solidifies, stop the reactor; there is a problem of dampening; I do not know how much it is solved now.
    2. Charik
      Charik April 15 2020 18: 08 New
      -2
      They buried the titan under the ground and the little ones spend on the plane and sell it abroad
  • ares1988
    ares1988 April 15 2020 09: 38 New
    -2
    Well, ash-tree zircons will not be so soon: https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/news-568244-cirkon-s-podvodnoy-lodki-zapustyat-cherez-4-5-let/
    Virginia, in turn, will not remain without hypersound: https://topwar.ru/168124-amerikanskie-apl-klassa-virdzhinija-pervymi-poluchat-giperzvukovye-rakety.html
    1. bars1
      bars1 April 15 2020 10: 20 New
      +4
      Virginia will be hypersonic at best until 2028.
      1. ares1988
        ares1988 April 15 2020 12: 10 New
        -1
        Yes. But even then, zircon on ash trees, if it will be regular, then at about the same time (plus or minus).
  • Operator
    Operator April 15 2020 11: 41 New
    -18
    "Ash" and "Likes" are outdated before they were born. The nuclear submarine ala "Virginia" is not interesting to anyone, except for the idolaters of the cargo cult.

    What about 40-50 missiles for MCSAPL, when only a pair of Zircons with 250-Ktn warheads at a range of +900 km after 6 minutes of flight time is guaranteed to drown the AV and disable the rest of the AUG floating craft? In this case, it will be possible to score on all anti-submarine KUGs with a multiple of the radius of the PLO zone.

    In this connection, the torpedoes of the ISSAPL are only needed as a means of fighting enemy submarines, and not against surface craft, and the torpedoes in their performance characteristics must be better than the counter-torpedoes - therefore, non-gored "Cases" are required (another product of the cargo cult with a ridiculous speed of 100 km / h), and purely domestic "Shkvali-2" with a speed of 360 km / h, induction HLL and a cruising range of about 20 km for the safe use of special warheads.

    A minimum of ammunition, consisting of the most effective missiles and torpedoes, will ensure minimum displacement and the value of the nuclear submarine’s physical fields, which will make it possible to hammer a bolt on the style icon of cargo worship idolaters - anti-submarine aircraft.

    That will make it possible for the first time since the 18th century to make the domestic fleet mortally dangerous, practically invulnerable and, most importantly, massive, and not to grind out floating troughs "goodbye homeland" like "Gorshkov".
    1. V.I.P.
      V.I.P. April 15 2020 13: 50 New
      0
      How will they detect a moving target over 900 km? Targeting satellites as in the USSR in the Russian Federation are not .....
      1. Ponchik78
        Ponchik78 April 15 2020 16: 04 New
        0
        Yes, it seems) MKRC “Liana”
        1. V.I.P.
          V.I.P. April 15 2020 16: 12 New
          +2
          Come on. How many satellites were there then and now? What piece of the world's oceans does "Liana" cover? ... It was during the USSR that they watched the entire water surface)
          1. Ponchik78
            Ponchik78 April 15 2020 18: 56 New
            0
            Do you really know how many satellites are in Liana? And how many of them really need, taking into account modern technology?
      2. AB0877
        AB0877 April 16 2020 12: 44 New
        +2
        USSR - MCRC "Legend". The grouping was replenished as necessary or assigned tasks. In St. Petersburg, in the early 2000s, a book was published. During the Falklands Crisis, ours saw the operational situation of mines. 2 times a day ... and slowly shared it with args. Did not help.
        RF - "Liana". According to rumors, there is only an RTR segment.
        And is it necessary in existing realities?
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M April 15 2020 14: 51 New
      +9
      Quote: Operator
      therefore, no golimny "Cases" are required

      fool
      DO YOU AT LEAST SOMETHING about "Case" know what to make such statements?

      Quote: Operator
      with 250 Ktn warheads at a range of +900 km after 6 minutes of flight time, it is guaranteed to drown AV

      face from sleep (s lol ) it makes no sense for someone who is grabbing a "vigorous club" to talk about Bikini (throwing beads ...)

      Quote: Operator
      and purely domestic "Shkvaly-2"

      fool
      short - NO SUCH
      this is YOUR wet fantasy
    3. bayard
      bayard April 15 2020 17: 27 New
      +3
      Quote: Operator
      On fig ICAPL 40-50 missiles

      In order that not only naval targets can be targets of such a submarine. With such ammunition, it will completely process the coastal infrastructure, and inland for 2 km. (For Caliber) or 000 km. (For Caliber-M) will take a deep breath, and "Zircon" will walk on high-priority targets. Even in the conventional version it will be a very weighty salvo, and only in a special ... a medium-sized state will be removed ... from the belligerents.
      On "Pike-B" were "Grenades" with nuclear warheads, and it was serious. But BC is too small. BC "Ash-M" will have 40 "Zircons", "Onyx", "Caliber-M", or 50 ordinary "Calibers". It is indeed, in a broad sense, a MULTI-PURPOSE nuclear submarine, capable of even single-handedly influencing the course of the conflict, and this is precisely why it justifies its high price. Since in addition to all of the above, it has excellent hydroacoustics and stealth.

      You understand, Andrey, a nuclear submarine, by definition, cannot be cheap - nuclear power plants, hydroacoustics, avionics, etc. Even in a small displacement with limited ammunition, this will be a rather expensive product. Let's say we decide to reduce the price and dimension of the "Ash" - exclude the missile compartment and leave only the TA.
      How much will the price go down?
      What about combat capabilities?
      The same "Lyra", despite its modest size and small crew, was a very expensive and difficult-to-maintain "apparatus". Here, if you squeeze the maximum return on the pledged funds, you should go exactly in the opposite direction - increasing the BC of multipurpose nuclear submarines to expand and diversify their capabilities to solve the widest possible range of combat missions.
      Here you have described one of these tasks - attacking the enemy’s AHG according to external target designation. If you are lucky, everything can happen this way.
      And if you're out of luck? Let’s say TS is out of date and the rockets go into milk and the attack must be repeated?
      And if the goal is not a single AUG, but a group of AUG operating in the area?
      And if the BZ - the search and destruction of the Atlantic convoy, which stretched for hundreds of kilometers?
      And what to do such a small submarine, even after a successful attack on the AUG? Go to reload to the base?
      After all, she had already shot her scanty supply of missiles.
      And the goals in the sea are still full ...
      Quote: Operator
      purely domestic "Shkvaly-2" with a speed of 360 km / h, induction HLL and a cruising range of about 20 km for the safe use of special warheads.

      To attack with such a means of destruction, it is necessary to approach the enemy at a distance of LESS THAN 20 km. ! And who will allow you this in a combat situation, if the enemy is able to detect you at a distance many times more, and torpedoes hit him at a distance of 50 (!!!) km. ?
      In addition, the caliber of such missiles (if the sclerosis has not changed) is 650 mm. , and this is already a weapon for a fairly large submarine. Not for Piranha.
      In addition, the launch of such a torpedo missile immediately unmasks you.
      Quote: Operator

      A minimum of ammunition, consisting of the most effective missiles and torpedoes, will ensure minimum displacement and the value of the nuclear submarine’s physical fields, which will make it possible to hammer a bolt on the style icon of cargo worship idolaters - anti-submarine aircraft.

      Submarine planes even DEPL quite successfully detect, in which the physical fields are more modest, and there is no such a thermal trace (like the nuclear submarines), and their dimensions themselves are what you advocate.
      If the enemy’s PLA dopekla, disperse it with your fighter aircraft. It is much simpler and more reliable.
      Quote: Operator
      and not to grind out floating troughs "goodbye homeland" like "Gorshkov".

      Well, what did this frigate do not please you?
      A fully balanced ship of its class, worthy of becoming one of the main ships of the future fleet ...
      If you want to have a lot of small and secretive submarines - hunters, you need to quickly sculpt your VNEU or supply your diesel-electric submarines with sufficiently energy-consuming batteries. And to entrust this work to them.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 15 2020 19: 51 New
        -6
        Look at things in terms of the nature of TMV and the puzzle will turn out.

        It will deal with land targets of the Russian Navy even without SSNS - with the help of the NPA Poseidon. The task of the SSNS is to sink the AUG before approaching the line of attack of targets on Russian territory, plus sinking along the way of the KUG that get in the way. Optionally - strike with "Zircons" on Washington and other small US command centers with a flight time of 6 minutes. there will be no need to drown Atlantic convoys due to the destruction of port infrastructure on both sides of the ocean. After the start of a nuclear conflict, the replenishment of ammunition at naval bases will become impossible due to the destruction of the bases.

        Missile torpedoes are needed by ICAPL to defend themselves from enemy nuclear submarines, which are armed with blade torpedoes with four times lower speed.

        To accomplish this limited range of tasks, it is quite enough to have a hundred ICLMs with a displacement of one thousand tons each, with an order of magnitude smaller sonar signature than the enemy’s nuclear submarines, with a dozen rocket torpedoes, a dozen hypersonic missiles and a dozen small-caliber torpedoes on board.

        I have not heard about at least one discovery of a modern diesel submarine at a distance of 900 km from the center of the AUG / KUG order.

        Frigates / corvettes are bad in that they can not solve a single problem in TMV, and they eat money exorbitantly.

        And in general, the repetition of moves in the armament structure behind the main enemy is nothing more than terpile tactics, which as a result will have tolerant armed forces, which we observe on the example of the Russian Navy since the Crimean War.
        1. bayard
          bayard April 16 2020 00: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Operator
          It will deal with land targets of the Russian Navy even without SSNS - with the help of the Poseidon NPA.

          Eco You Swung! lol
          Do they have any?
          Well, let's say soon they will, it’s not for nothing that carriers build them.
          Suppose they wash away the enemy a couple of hundred kilometers from the coastline ... they will sink England ... A new beautiful world will come ...
          This is if TMV happens.
          It was when the Poseidons were already in the ranks and ready to drown everyone.
          What about her?
          TMV?
          How to observe the vital interests of the beloved Fatherland?
          Off the coast?
          Protect your allies and assets in Latin America?
          "Poseidon"?
          That raises the question edge-to cover Venezuela from American aggression.
          What we are going to do ?
          Whom to send?
          Let's just say - by the end of this year such a question will arise if?
          But we will take, and we will send there two of our new frigates 22350 (the second is just about to enter service) ... a couple of large landing ships with a battalion of marines ... and the Severodvinsk MAPL from under the water to cover them (if two brand new "Yasen-M" have not yet entered service), a sea tug (where without it), a tanker and a support ship.
          "Zircon" is not in service yet, but there is "Onyx" and this is also serious ...
          What do we get on missiles?
          32 anti-ship missiles on frigates, this is the maximum, if we exclude from the Caliber ammunition load, including the missile-torpedo submarines.

          Few .
          But from under the water our small detachment of ships is covered by ONE MAPL "Severodvinsk", which has in the BC ... also (!) 32 anti-ship missiles "Onyx".
          Total - already 64.
          Breathing is getting easier.
          But next, immediately after the acceptance tests, by a forced march, two more Yasen-M type MPSs arrive to help our group (by the end of this year they are to enter service).
          With 40 RCC on board each.
          And the volley power of our small group immediately rises to 144 missiles in one volley.
          And this is not counting the coastal complexes and aviation, which certainly will also be.
          You also noticed how the situation changed after the arrival of these ... only two MAPL?
          And while the surface group still has 32 missiles ...

          This is how the alignment of forces on a possible theater of operations on distant shores, with the arrival of a total of 2 submarines, changes freely.
          Which will go into service before the end of this year.

          Can you imagine how the arrival of at least ONE ... "Borei-K" would change the alignment of forces?
          With 112 KR on board?

          And to discuss the possibility of creating / building 100 (STA !!!) nuclear submarines with a displacement of 1000 tons (?!) and an ammunition load of 10 rocket torpedoes with a caliber of 650 mm. , ten ... what have you got there ... cruise missiles (?), and ten "small caliber" torpedoes ... even to discuss it is sinful. The arsenal you proposed has already surpassed the Varshavyanka BC ... approximately twice in size and weight, as well as almost twice in number ...

          Ash is expensive, but worth it.
          "Borey-K" will be cheaper than "Ash" by one and a half times, but will surpass almost three times in the number of salvoes.
          And at the same time, both are able to conduct an effective fight against the enemy’s nuclear submarines.
          At ANY point in the world's oceans.
          What your piranhas can never do.
          Yes, they will never be.

          Let’s get better about air defense and its radio-technical component, it’s still closer to you.
          Yes, and me too.
          hi bully
          1. Operator
            Operator April 16 2020 01: 26 New
            -2
            Sorry, but I did not understand how 144 conventional "Caliber" off the coast of Venezuela will help us resist the US Navy.
            1. bayard
              bayard April 16 2020 02: 26 New
              0
              You inattentively read, not "Caliber", but anti-ship missiles, in this case "Onyx" for confronting the US Navy ships \ designation of the threat to them.
              And, of course, they are not alone, but coastal complexes, and aviation ... both transferred by us, and available from Venezuela.
              And non-conventional ... this is at the discretion of management.

              And believe me, 144 Onyx is a lot.
              The United States, for example, has none.

              And if 144 "Zircon"?
              Well, that will be later.

              And, by the way, on the supply ship there may be sufficient ammunition for subsequent reloading.

              In case of conflict, the damage will not be acceptable.
              1. Operator
                Operator April 16 2020 06: 19 New
                -4
                We are talking about the direction of development of the Russian Navy, therefore promising types of weapons are mentioned - GKR "Zircon", NPA "Poseidon" and the proposed one-kiloton SSNS with the same type of nuclear power plant with "Poseidon".

                In peacetime, our fleet has nothing to do off the coast of Venezuela (Gabon, the Philippines, etc.) from the word in general, except for the landing of the Russian expeditionary forces in these countries in the presence of external aggression against them from third countries that do not possess nuclear weapons. But then all tasks will be solved by the Russian ground forces and aviation (as in Syria), the fleet will have to convoy supply transports, with which corvettes with anti-torpedoes and one-kiloton SSNNs in the tracking mode of Zircons with conventional warheads will perfectly cope.

                In wartime, it makes no sense at all to locate the fleet within the range of enemy coastal aviation - to destroy the latter there is a remote weapon such as ICBMs and SLBMs, plus the promising Poseidon missiles.

                PS Why drive the "roaring cow" represented by the Borey SSBN (compared to the one-kiloton SSNS) directly to the US PLO zone?
                1. bayard
                  bayard April 16 2020 09: 24 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Operator
                  We are talking about the direction of development of the Russian Navy, therefore promising types of weapons are mentioned - GKR "Zircon", NPA "Poseidon" and the proposed one-kiloton SSNS with the same type of nuclear power plant with "Poseidon".

                  His (development) has already been directed.
                  And there is no and will not be any ICAPL in the lists of this direction.
                  Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
                  Quote: Operator
                  In peacetime, our fleet has nothing to do off the coast of Venezuela (Gabon, Philippines, etc.) from a word in general

                  This is not for you to decide, but for now, the question of creating a naval and air base in Venezuela is being considered (in practical terms).
                  Quote: Operator
                  what corvettes can do perfectly

                  CORVETTE?
                  Are you raving
                  These are littoral ships!
                  Quote: Operator
                  Why distill the "roaring cow" in the face of the SSBN "Borey"

                  One of the most quiet submarines of our time.
                  Quote: Operator
                  (in comparison with the single-kilo ICAPL)

                  Be afraid, THERE will never be.
                  NONE-YES.
                  Quote: Operator
                  PS why

                  Because one provides a salvo equivalent to one and a half to two nuclear-powered cruisers of the Nakhimov type.
                  No need for the fleet.
                  It is not yours at all.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 16 2020 09: 49 New
                    -7
                    Ty, a regiment of cargo cult idolaters has arrived - the Terpila cruiser will help you laughing
                2. Fizik M
                  Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 38 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Operator
                  promising types of weapons - NPA "Poseidon" and the proposed one-kiloton SSNS with the same type of nuclear power plant with "Poseidon".

                  fool
                  Quote: Operator
                  "roaring cow" represented by SSBN Borey

                  as the saying goes "sometimes it's better to chew" than to spank such nonsense lol
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal April 16 2020 03: 27 New
            +3
            The Marine Battalion will not cope with the armies of the neighbors of Venezuela. Russia has no experience in conducting wars (and supplying forces) at such a distance, and this is much more complicated.
            The coastal forces of the “neighbors” may have anti-ship missiles, which is very difficult for the corvette to defend against, and each strike (with warhead 150-200kg) deprives them of combat readiness.
            I am sure that someone who does undermine the forces and economy of the Russian Federation would be very interested in drawing us into such a conflict.
            1. bayard
              bayard April 16 2020 03: 37 New
              +1
              Venezuelan neighbors throughout Latin America have neither such armed forces nor such weapons. Their army is strong enough, but they need a demonstration of external support, as it was before.
              And I'm not advocating a war on other continents at all. With such an example, I only demonstrated the value of such a combat unit as the Yasen and Yasen-M submarines.
              And that’s it. bully
              1. Operator
                Operator April 16 2020 06: 29 New
                -6
                Demonstration of external support in the form of a flag demonstration is a typical borrowing of the experience of the US Navy of the past century.

                Much more relevant will be a demonstration of the type of training firing of the GKR "Zircon" from the one-kiloton SSNS at a distance of 900 km in the immediate vicinity of the potential aggressor or the ascent of the NPA Poseidon 6 miles (the US border) from the mouth of the Hudson River after approaching the sneak and retreat speed at maximum depth / speed.

                Not to mention the sudden command and staff exercises of the Strategic Missile Forces with the launch of ICBMs under television cameras from the position of minute readiness.

                And the flag can always be drawn on board the missiles or raised above the normative documents at the time of ascent bully
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 39 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Operator
                  firing practice of the GKR "Zircon" from the side of the one-kiloton SSAPL

                  fool
          3. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl April 17 2020 15: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: bayard
            Ash is expensive, but worth it.
            I welcome Vitaliy !! hi
            Our thoughts quite often coincide with you, but repeat in this particular case, it seems to me that a part of Andrey’s considerations makes a little more sense. winked
            Quote: bayard
            ... from under the water our small detachment of ships is covered by ONE MAPL "Severodvinsk" ...
            unfortunately, it is not nearly as "silent" as they wanted to present it to us initially ... sad
            Quote: bayard
            But next, immediately after the acceptance tests, by a forced march, two more Yasen-M-class submarines arrive to help our group.
            and if everything was smooth with them, the transfer of "Kazan" would not have dragged on so much ... there, apparently, there are jambs "in reserve" ... recourse
            Quote: bayard
            And by the way , on a supply ship there may be enough BC for a subsequent recharge.
            guarded by only two frigates 22350 against the KUG or AUG of the probable adversary, on a campaign across the Atlantic ?! to Venezuela for example, during the period of aggravation of the situation, on the verge of armed conflict ?! winked
            Therefore, I personally am more inclined to believe that the expediency of SSNS, much smaller than the Yasen-M (in VI 3800-5500 tons), but a larger number, makes sense.
            Quote: bayard
            And the volley power of our small group immediately rises to 144 missiles in one volley.
            already the first massive salvo of CD from the VPU, unmasks the submarine. Therefore, their number is 32-40 pcs. ?! Well, I have rather big doubts, for two reasons at once. Firstly, it is much easier for the enemy to control the places of probable patrols of Yasenei-M (in the amount of 3-5 units, in the next 5-6 years) than if they were built in their place. respectively 6-10 ICAPLs of smaller VI (for the same means) where, in addition to torpedoes, there would be 8 maximum 10 VPU for KR ... smile just imagine hypothetically, the construction program is not "Ash-M", but some analogue of "Barakuda-Lyra" (slightly more compressed in size, taking into account new / modern technological solutions, and the level of automation of the last example). With allowable 6 TA and 8-10 VPU for KR. Smaller size and number of TLU shafts (reduce cost each ship and time its construction), as well as the level of visibility of physical fields, of each ICAPL, and the ability to be detected from above, in the wake of displaced water, during movement, due to a significantly lower VI !!! fellow
            Quote: bayard
            ... "Borey-K" will be one and a half times cheaper than "Ash", but it will surpass almost three times in the number of salvoes ...
            There will be no !! The main part of the price, it is in the equipment associated with the number of installed weapons systems (and not just the size of the case) !!! On the contrary, it threatens to become "gold" with 112 VPUs for the Kyrgyz Republic ?!
            Quote: bayard
            And there is no and will not be any ICAPL in the lists of this direction.
            But this is sad, if so ?! recourse
            Quote: bayard
            Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
            Well, to the already under construction 10 "Ashes" (in the programs of the Navy), there is really no need for 100 SSNS (smaller sizes) !!! There will be plenty of them in the amount of about 16-18 units, divided between the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, since there will be a dozen "Ash". what yes
            Quote: bayard
            ...Because one provides volley ...
            Please understand that just one, a large boat, it will be easier for a probable enemy to track down the areas of its probable appearance, and take it for escort / aim, and destroy it before launching the CD ... It seems to me that Andrey (Operator) was trying to tell you exactly about this "side medals "... And I confess that I have such a point of view, hi largely in agreement.
            It seems that before the collapse of the USSR, it was a large number of not very large ICAPMs (but already quite low-noise RTMKs at that time) that infuriated our probable opponents, making it clear that they simply could not be physically tracked !!!
            - On February 29, 1996, during a NATO fleet exercise, after successfully completing a mission to detect conditional enemy submarines, an undetected Russian submarine contacted the ships asking for help. Soon, in the middle of the NATO warrant order, a submarine surfaced that was recognized by British sailors as Project 971 Schuka-B. One of the crew members of the boat needed urgent medical attention due to peritonitis that developed after the operation to remove the appendix, sources often indicate the cause of the disease - an acute attack of appendicitis [4]. A sick submariner was delivered to the British Glasgow destroyer, . The British sailors then made a mistake: in front of them was the K-448 Tambov nuclear submarine [5] of Project 671RTMK, and not the Pike-B [6].(https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_671%D0%A0%D0%A2%D0%9C(%D0%9A)_%C2%AB%D0%A9%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B0%C2%BB)
            1. bayard
              bayard April 17 2020 18: 21 New
              0
              Greetings to Vladimir. hi
              It is necessary to immediately determine that the Yasen-M series of MAPLs is already under construction and undergoing commissioning and development activities. And nothing can be done about it. The fact that not everything is going smoothly is obvious, due to delays in the delivery of the lead Yasen-M to the fleet. It is obvious that they will be brought into service and adopted. That is, they, no doubt, will become operational and will carry out combat services. And so I tried to show them to assess their combat value and the range of tasks that they will perform as a priority. And as an example, he cited one of the hypothetical tasks to support a friendly state and to prevent aggression against it.
              The fleet of modern Russia is not able at the moment to detach large forces of surface ships for such an operation, especially - ships carrying modern missile weapons.
              The choice is still small.
              But there is a submarine fleet with the head MAPL "Severodvinsk", with all its problems, but its task will not be to hunt for enemy nuclear submarines (at least not the main one), but to create a threat to the enemy's surface-to-water ships with its anti-ship missiles from the area covered by surface ships , aviation and coastal facilities. A kind of underwater arsenal under the cover of surface forces off the coast of a friendly state.
              And this arsenal (at "Severodvinsk") is equal to the arsenal of two frigates covering it.
              And for cover from enemy submarines, it is wiser to use one of the serviceable "Schuk-B".
              Precisely as about ARSENAL, in this case, I was talking.
              And the hypothetical arrival of two more "Ash-M" (their withdrawal to the Atlantic will be provided by surface ships of the Baltic Fleet and the Northern Fleet - making noise with propellers and depicting active exercises and maneuvers.
              The main value of "Ash-M" I see it in this - the covert delivery to the shores of a potential enemy 40 KR "Caliber-M" (range of about 4500 km.) And \ or "Zircon" (range not less than 1000 km., Which is not it is worth doubting, because its air hypostasis will have about 1500 km.).
              A salvo of one such 40-Kr submarine with nuclear submarines will be able to withdraw any medium-sized state from the war, or paralyze one of the US coasts, carrying out their command centers, bases, early warning systems, large radar stations, arsenals, etc. with the Zircons. , as well as strikes on the enemy's AUG and KUG with timely target designation to them.
              This, I see, is the main task of these nuclear submarines, and not the hunt for the enemy nuclear submarines or their sea convoys.
              However, having fired off (in the event of a real war), the Yasen-M could well have done other tasks more typical for MAPLs, using torpedoes, mines, and missile launchers from the TA ... if the latter are in its arsenal.
              But what the cat cried for the submarine war of classic MAPLs is the fault of weak (to put it mildly) ship repair. Carrying out timely repairs and modernization of "Barakud", "Pike-B", etc., we would not have now such a deplorable state of this segment of the submarine forces.
              But ... There are three reasons, as always - lack of funding, lack of sufficient capacity and personnel for ship repair, and as the main reason - the lack of comprehensive planning in the development of the fleet, i.e. - quality management.
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Quote: bayard
              ... "Borey-K" will be one and a half times cheaper than "Ash", but it will surpass almost three times in the number of salvoes ...
              Will not be !! The main part of the price, it is in the equipment associated with the number of installed weapons systems (and not just the size of the case) !!! On the contrary, it threatens to become "gold" with 112 VPUs for the Kyrgyz Republic ?!

              Let me still disagree with you. In the version of the SLBM carrier, "Bore-A" costs about 600 million dollars. That is almost TWO times cheaper than "Ash-M". It would seem a paradox, but it is so. In the variant of the CD carrier, it will cost a little more, BUT not by much ... let's say ... $ 700 million. But at the same time, the cost of the BC from the Kyrgyz Republic is unlikely to exceed, but rather will be significantly lower than the cost of the Bulava SLBM.
              In any case, the Borey-K will be about one and a half times cheaper than the Yasen-M, but at the same time it will have excellent stealth (low noise) and an arsenal of 112 CR, instead of 40 - 50 CR on the Yasen-M (50 CR - in the case of the KR "Caliber" equipment).
              And it will also be an excellent arsenal of the Kyrgyz Republic, more capacious and cheaper, but it should also be deployed under the cover of surface forces. It will very significantly strengthen the missile salvo of any KUG, while also covering the KUG from under water.
              As for the need for the fleet in the MAPL of a format that is more compact than the Yasen-M format, I absolutely agree with you, and until recently I thought that it would be exactly the Husky \ Laika that would be like this, but recent rumors have reported that VI for it is planned to be 11 - 000 tons! But this already does not climb into any gate. Do they want to build another series of "arsenals" similar to "Ash-M"? It is much more reasonable to build 13 - 000 "Boreyev-K" for the future replacement of "Batons" and close the question on this topic. And "Husky \ Likes" to build as underwater hunters of moderate VI, for which 6 torpedoes and 8 CD in the UVP would be quite enough. In the dimensions of "Pike-B".
              And talk about the possibility of creating a MAPL VI in 1000 tons. belay I consider it not serious at all. And not worthy of consideration.
              And you, I think, have the same opinion. Need to think in real terms.
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Quote: bayard
              Especially 100 pcs. such a phantasmagoria.
              Well, to the already under construction 10 "Ashes" (in the programs of the Navy), there is really no need for 100 SSNS (smaller sizes) !!! There will be plenty of them in the amount of about 16-18 units, divided between the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet, since there will be a dozen "Ash".

              I absolutely agree with this.
              9 - 10 Yasenei-M, 6 - 8 Borey-K, up to 20 submarine submarines in the Shchuka-B or Barakuda, about 60 diesel-electric submarines - it would be quite nice to have multipurpose submarine forces in service.

              And one more remark.
              One "Borey-K" without BC, will cost about 600 - 700 million dollars. , this is about the same as the cost of ONE frigate 22350, and less than the cost of 22350M. But a salvo of such a submarine missile carrier will surpass a surface ship equal in price to it ... IN BOTH.
              This is about financial efficiency and feasibility.
              hi drinks
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M April 16 2020 06: 10 New
          +2
          Quote: Operator
          It will deal with land targets of the Russian Navy even without SSNS - with the help of the Poseidon NPA.

          just smile fool
          Quote: Operator
          The task of the ICAPL is to sink the AUG up to the approach to the line of attack of targets on Russian territory, plus drowning along the course of the KUG, which get in the way.

          I sympathize
          hard to live in a country of pink ponies
          lol
          Quote: Operator
          Missile torpedoes are needed by ICAPL to defend themselves from enemy nuclear submarines, which are armed with blade torpedoes with four times lower speed.

          which they can use from distances MULTIPLE greater than the range of the SPR
          Quote: Operator
          I have not heard about at least one discovery of a modern diesel submarine at a distance of 900 km from the center of the AUG / KUG order.

          wassat
          costs of YOUR "country of pink ponies"
          etc.
    4. bk0010
      bk0010 April 15 2020 19: 09 New
      0
      Quote: Operator
      "Ash" and "Likes" are outdated before they were born.
      I won’t argue here.
      Quote: Operator
      What about 40-50 missiles for the MCSAPL, when only a pair of Zircons with 250-Ktn warheads at a range of +900 km after 6 minutes of flight time is guaranteed to drown the AV and disable the rest of the AUG floating craft?
      There are no zircons yet. And maybe not. But there is a task. Therefore, the boat must be equipped to fulfill it. Yes, a pair of special warheads can disable AUG. But for the probability of their delivery to the target to be acceptable, it is necessary that a bunch of missiles fly with them, so that the air defense forces are forced to try to destroy them all, and not focus on nuclear weapons. In the USSR it was considered that in order to push Aegis AUG you need 20-24 Granites, of which 4-6 with special warheads. Proceeding from this, boats were built (Antei, for example). And it would be nice to be able to repeat the strike, since the special warhead can be not only on anti-ship missiles, but also on anti-aircraft missiles. Making two small boats with 12 missiles will cost more, and if one of them dies, the task will still not be completed.
      Quote: Operator
      and purely domestic "Shkvaly-2" with a speed of 360 km / h, induction HLL and a cruising range of about 20 km
      Flurry is a very specific weapon. It does not have a guidance head, but has a short range. It could be useful in a situation where the USSR boat did not hear the US boat, but suspected that it was nearby. Then our captain could launch a Flurry and the enemy would be forced to reveal himself by starting to take measures to evade (special warheads are not a joke), instead of destroying the USSR nuclear submarines. When both boats do not see each other, a Flurry is not needed.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 15 2020 20: 02 New
        -6
        Even if the United States or China develop air defense systems to intercept hypersonic missile launchers at an altitude of 40 km, or in the process of performing anti-aircraft maneuvers when diving on a target, there is always the good old first-second attack method - the special warhead of the leading missile extinguishes the enemy's radars without entering the air defense zone, the special warhead of the guided missile incapacitates the AUG / KUG surface ships.

        The Shkval-2 rocket torpedo (if there is also the Zircon GKR in the ammunition load) is designed to defeat enemy nuclear submarines, which have nothing to oppose to underwater weapons with a 200-node speed, a range of 20 km, an induction seeker and a special warhead destruction radius exceeding the range anti-torpedo.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M April 16 2020 09: 40 New
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          Rocket torpedo "Shkval-2"

          fool
          to live in a world of pink ponies - YOUR right
          however, keep YOUR wet fantasies (not related to reality)
    5. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity April 18 2020 12: 18 New
      0
      Corrected karma to the faithful. And then the atheists came running ... All right, comrade says, only the ammunition at the boat should be large. In case of war, when will it be possible to replenish it? Probably never.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN April 15 2020 13: 11 New
    +1
    I was smart enough to preserve Sevmash in the difficult 90s. In my time (early 80s) it was called SMP, and the backlog of those years was put into action - it was not lost. I'm glad that completely NEW nuclear submarines went into series
  • VohaAhov
    VohaAhov April 15 2020 13: 21 New
    +4
    The Severodvinsk submarine has eight vertical missile shafts behind the slide rail, and the new Kazan has ten. Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles
    Ilya, how accurate is your information that Kazan has 10 (ten) missile silos? And that in each shaft there are 5 "Calibers"? How many did not study open sources of information everywhere it is said that Kazan, as well as Severodvinsk, has 8 (eight) missile silos and each is designed for 4 missiles (Caliber, Onyx or Zircon).
    In your picture comparing "Kazan" and "Severodvinsk" on "Kazan" 10 torpedo tubes are drawn, not 8, as you claim. You may have inserted the wrong picture. There is a more suitable one at the airbase.
    And now about the Husky. Judging by the photographs of the model, this submarine does not have vertical missile silos, but only torpedo tubes. Launching from torpedo tubes "Zircons" and "Onyx" is not possible.
    In all other respects, the article is quite informative and interesting.
  • 3danimal
    3danimal April 15 2020 20: 43 New
    0
    . Each mine has four Onyx cruise missiles, or five Caliber cruise missiles.

    What is it like? Shove 5 rockets into four pipes? what
    1. bars1
      bars1 April 15 2020 22: 42 New
      0
      5 TPK with Caliber or 4 TPK with Onyx are placed in one mine.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal April 16 2020 03: 16 New
        0
        Apparently we are talking about different launchers smile (confused with UKKS)
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar April 15 2020 23: 16 New
      0
      Let's say this is what a likely adversary looks like:
      1. VohaAhov
        VohaAhov April 16 2020 14: 41 New
        +1
        And here it may look with us

  • Wasilii
    Wasilii April 16 2020 14: 35 New
    -1
    "By the way, it can be seen as a good illustration of the evolution of Russian multipurpose submarines." ----- Holy words. Real cases have changed to cartoons and models.
  • exo
    exo April 16 2020 21: 21 New
    0
    It's not bad, on paper. But, as has been repeatedly discussed at the forum: noisiness is by no means the only unmasking sign. Let's hope this will be taken into account in new projects.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod April 17 2020 23: 32 New
    0
    An NK package would be put on it, a good thing ...
    1. agond
      agond 4 June 2020 10: 28 New
      0
      On the topic of why and why, with the large displacement of our submarines, they have such a small ammunition load, and in fact it is small, if next to the same Borem it would be an insignificant pile to put all his weapons in it, there are two reasons
      1 the usual double-hull construction of the boat forces first to increase the volume of its strong hull, and then the size of the outer "light"
      2 the habit of storing weapons, torpedoes and missiles inside a sturdy enclosure, which is already full of everything
      3, the habit of firing a torpedo or rocket from a solid hull to the outside requires a special gateway, a torpedo tube, which also occupies an internal volume, moreover, these devices have to be concentrated in an amount of 6 to 10 in one place, and rockets are used to put vertically or at an angle of 45 * ,
      These habits are the main reasons for the low percentage of weapons in the displacement of submarines, the solution suggests itself,
      1 limit the use of double-hull submarine design,
      2 torpedoes and missiles should be stored in containers on the outside of a sturdy hull, and for its use just dump the container or push it out
  • merkava-2bet
    merkava-2bet 17 June 2020 14: 58 New
    0
    Again, rioting riot for the fleet, again hemorrhoids for industry and the rear.