Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

Marshal G. K. Zhukov receives the Victory Parade in Moscow


During the rewriting stories The Great Patriotic War, one of the main targets for liberals and revisionist researchers was George Konstantinovich Zhukov. He is called the "Stalin butcher", accused of lack of professionalism, tyranny, cruelty and indifference to the lives of soldiers.

The purpose of such work is obvious: by denigrating the Marshal of Victory, which has become one of the symbols of our Great Victory (Stalin himself noted: “Zhukov is our Suvorov”), you can pour dirt on our Soviet past with impunity. To preserve and strengthen the unfair order prevailing in the world. To smear with mud the true heroes and great statesmen and military figures, and out of evil spirits, for example, Bandera and Shukhevych, make “heroes”.

The Stalin Butcher


In Ukraine out material by A. Levchenko: “Marshal Zhukov: Stalin’s butcher or hero?” According to the author, the Soviet commander was more remembered for “his mats and executions of his military personnel on all fronts” than for military victories. Georgy Konstantinovich is responsible for the catastrophic defeats of 1941, when the Red Army was not ready for war. On his conscience are huge "cauldrons" of the initial period of the war, including Vitebsk, Mogilev, Minsk, Kiev, Vyazma and Bryansk, in which hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers died or were captured. It is concluded that the Stalin Marshal, as chief of the General Staff of the Red Army in the summer of 1941 and a member of the General Headquarters, "is one of the main culprits of the worst disaster in world military history."

In the style typical of modern Ukraine, when the Soviet period was being poured with mud and the Nazis and war criminals were praising in every way, it was emphasized that Zhukov sent hundreds of thousands of mobilized Ukrainians to death, they then survived the terrible German occupation, liberated their own land at the cost of huge losses. Allegedly, the Soviet marshal ordered "not to spare" new recruits from Ukraine sent to four Ukrainian fronts. They were considered "suspicious elements" living under the rule of the Nazis. Allegedly, such a high loss of Ukraine in the Second World War among the republics of the USSR (only in the RSFSR more died). Although the reasons for the high population losses of the Ukrainian SSR are quite objective: the front line passed there, the region was under fascist occupation, the Nazis pursued a policy of the physical destruction of the Slavic-Russians, and they "cleared" the lands under the German "superhuman." In Ukraine, one of the most bloody battles of the Great Patriotic War took place, Hitler at all costs tried to keep the region strategically and economically important for the Third Reich.

Thus, we see another attack in the direction of the USSR, the Great Patriotic War and its heroes. Like, the enemy "filled up with corpses." But the Victory Marshal was in fact a “Stalinist butcher” who destroyed hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens and especially Ukrainians.

Crisis Manager of the Red Army


In order to understand all the stupidity and deceitfulness of such “works”, it is simply necessary to read and analyze historical sources and objective historical research. Thus, a military historian, a specialist in the history of the Great Patriotic War A. Isaev “Myths and Truth about Marshal Zhukov” has a very good work on this subject. Alexei Isaev notes that the Stalin military leader knew how to fight, since 1939 he was the “crisis manager” of the Red Army, “the man who was thrown into the most difficult and dangerous sector of the front.” Zhukov "was a kind of" commander of the RGK ", capable of fencing with armies and divisions better than his colleagues."

The headquarters directed Georgy Konstantinovich to a section of the front in crisis or requiring increased attention. This guaranteed the high command increased effectiveness of the Red Army on this site. At the same time, Zhukov was not an “invincible” commander. Often, from an impending catastrophe, he had to go to "non-defeat", establish a fragile balance of power out of chaos, and pull others out of the crisis. The Soviet commander usually got the most difficult sections of the front and dangerous opponents. It happened that he had to order the Stavka to transfer the work he had begun, and others reaped the fruits of his efforts, to move to new sectors of the front.

Zhukov was a native of a poor peasant family, he never had high patrons, but thanks to his talent and steel will he became the most outstanding and famous Soviet marshal. During the war, he became Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief, Minister of Defense, member of the highest military-political leadership of the USSR, four times Hero of the Soviet Union, holder of two Orders of Victory and many other Soviet and foreign orders and medals. Georgy Konstantinovich did not do anything mean, did not humiliate himself before the top leadership. Forever remained the people's Marshal of Victory.

Zhukov led the largest masses of Soviet troops and inflicted the largest defeats on the Wehrmacht. From the very beginning of the war, he showed the ability to deliver powerful counterattacks in defensive operations. He showed that it is necessary to attack even in the most difficult conditions in order to survive and defeat a terrible enemy tomorrow. He showed himself as a person who knows how to manage large masses of people. As a military leader, able to make tough decisions necessary to maintain the common good and preserve the power. His life is an example of the highest demands on himself and others.

True, the politician Zhukov turned out to be bad. After the death of Stalin, he got into political games, supported Khrushchev with his authority first against Beria, then helped Khrushchev defeat his other opponents. It was a big mistake. The state pygmy Khrushchev could not tolerate such a titan as Zhukov next to him. Also, the marshal could lead the opposition. Khrushchev with might and main “optimized” (destroyed) the Armed forces of the USSR. Therefore, in 1957, Zhukov fell into disgrace, was dismissed, was deprived of all public and military posts.

Why hate Zhukov


Why is most of the dirt poured on Zhukov, and not on other generals of Stalin? The point is the personality of Georgy Konstantinovich. He is a symbol of the red empire. The peasant son, an iron soldier who went all the way from the royal non-commissioned officer to the great marshal who defeated the Third Reich. A national hero, a commander who rightfully stands among other great military figures of Russian civilization, along with Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov and Mikhail Kutuzov.

American General William Spar noted:

“In the year of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is raised as an icon embodying the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image of this man on a white horse who has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "

Thus, attempts to overthrow Georgy Zhukov from the Victory podium are an informational, ideological war against our history, Russian and Soviet civilization. The blackening of the Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.


Representative of the Supreme High Command of the Red Army, Commander of the 1st Belorussian Front, Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Zhukov during the signing of the act of unconditional surrender of the German armed forces in the Karlshorst district of Berlin
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  1. DMB 75 April 14 2020 05: 09 New
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    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    Entirely and completely agree.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Caretaker April 14 2020 06: 37 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        And what does it mean to denigrate?

        To denigrate is to enumerate shortcomings (often fictitious) and to keep silent about achievements.
      2. Olgovich April 14 2020 07: 03 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        And what does it mean to denigrate? Zhukov was a bad chief of the General Staff - is it a slander or not?

        It's a lie.
        Of course, he had both errors and shortcomings, but, in general, he -real Marshal of Victory
        Quote: Octopus
        But this?
        Comrade Zhukov, when he was the commander of the group of Soviet occupation forces in Germany, committed acts that dishonored the high rank of member of the CPSU (b)

        And this is just a worthless, false accusation of the long-disappeared and self-decreasing lie of just a public organization.

        Let me remind you that all the generals destroyed in the trophy business were rehabilitated , and the charges are recognized false.

        The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev

        True, the politician Zhukov turned out to be bad. After the death of Stalin, he got into political games

        What kind of expressions "climbed", "did not fit"?

        Did he create that atmosphere in the country?

        No, but he acted in it in accordance with his duty of an honest patriot of the country, endowed with great trust and love of the people.

        But he acted and spoke directly and honestly, as befits a military man. hi
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 07: 12 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          It's a lie.
          Of course, he had both errors and shortcomings, but, in general, he is the real Marshal of Victory

          Accurate cornering.
          Marshal of Victory and a good chief of the General Staff - is it the same thing for you, or what?
          Quote: Olgovich
          The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev.

          Malenkov. Because at one time he tried to attract aviators and Malenkov too.
          Quote: Olgovich
          generals destroyed in trophy were rehabilitated

          That is, we do not believe Stalin, but do we believe Khrushchev?
          Thus, Comrade Zhukov G.K. did not justify the trust placed in him by the Party. He turned out to be a politically untenable figure, prone to adventurism both in understanding the most important tasks of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union and in the leadership of the Ministry of Defense.
          1. Insurgent April 14 2020 07: 40 New
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            Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

            Yes, because he is the charismatic Marshal of Victory, a figure whose contribution to Victory, to the grinding of teeth, irritated his envious people both in the West and in the country.

            Actually, the USSR-Pobeda-Zhukov combination, back in 1945, became unbearable for the United States and the emerging belt of their satellites.

            Confirmation of this is the joint Victory Parade in Berlin, to which, to lower the status of the USSR and the Red Army in contributing to the defeat of Nazi Germany, they delegated secondary representatives of the army command of recent allied countries.

            Nevertheless, even they did not succeed ...

            Marshal Zhukov with an iconostasis of awards, a Soviet soldier, Soviet equipment, eclipsed American, British, and other pedestrians - former allies ...

            1. Octopus April 14 2020 07: 52 New
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              Quote: Insurgent
              Yes, because he is the charismatic Marshal of Victory, a figure whose contribution to Victory, to the grinding of teeth, irritated his envious people both in the West and in the country.

              This is you about TT. Stalin and Khrushchev so?
              Quote: Insurgent
              the joint Victory Parade in Berlin, to which, to lower the status of the USSR and the Red Army in contributing to the defeat of Nazi Germany, delegated secondary representatives of the command of the armies of the allied countries.

              )))

              Eisenhower, for which I do not like him, when he learned about the Soviet side’s desire to sign a separate act on the surrender of Germany, he said that he would not participate in this farce.

              However, Truman, at that moment very far from understanding the situation in Europe, insisted on signing.

              So no, you’re very mistaken about lowering your status. It was generally believed that the winners cross out like any China.
              1. qQQQ April 14 2020 08: 55 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Eisenhower, for which I do not like him, when he learned about the Soviet side’s desire to sign a separate act on the surrender of Germany, he said that he would not participate in this farce.

                Prior to this, the allies arranged the farce with the signing of surrender, as According to the agreement between us, they had to accept the surrender of Germany together, and they did it on their own on May 8, which is why the second procedure was already held with all parties present. Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.
                1. Octopus April 14 2020 09: 17 New
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                  Quote: qqqq
                  according to an agreement between us, to accept the surrender of Germany, should have been together,

                  And Doenitz, excuse me, what, to break? Running to the smart and the beautiful?

                  Surrender to all allies meant a ban on a ceasefire in the West while continuing hostilities in the East. Eisenhower did this from Jodl, frankly, by methods that did not honor him. Susloparov ball acquainted with the paper, all honestly. I would begin to get angry - I would have surrendered in the West, as Doenitz originally proposed.

                  Quote: qqqq
                  Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.

                  In fact, the USSR in the 45th year was not in a position to seriously quarrel with the Americans. And comrade Stalin understands this much better than the Americans.
                  1. qQQQ April 14 2020 14: 38 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    And Doenitz, excuse me, what, to break? Running to the smart and the beautiful?

                    Doenitz was not in the position to argue, if the Motherland ordered it, he would run at the same time to the smart and beautiful. By the way, in fact, after the capture of Berlin, the act of surrender was more of a legal nature, I immediately admit that in practice it helped to save a lot of lives.
                    1. Octopus April 14 2020 15: 06 New
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                      Quote: qqqq
                      if the motherland ordered

                      He orders in Germany at that time.
                      Quote: qqqq
                      that practically it helped to save a lot of lives.

                      Thank you anyway. The USSR, already under a closed door, on May 6 and later, manages to carry out the huge Prague operation by forces of three fronts and put in a couple more divisions. And with the wounded, that's all ten.

                      Stalin did not believe Eisenhower, was afraid that he would change his mind. Aiki’s order, 2-3 hours to go, and in Prague, instead of a monument to Konev, there is a monument to Patton. Its parts at that time in Plzen and Karlovy Vary.
                      1. qQQQ April 14 2020 15: 29 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Thank you anyway. The USSR, already under a closed door, on May 6 and later, manages to carry out the huge Prague operation by forces of three fronts and put in a couple more divisions. And with the wounded, that's all ten.

                        Together with the wounded, about 50, I agree that all of Czechoslovakia is not worth one soldier’s life, but then there was already a struggle for the post-war world, and not the fact that Czechoslovakia, which had left us, did not become the drop that helped keep the West from unleashing new war against the USSR.
                      2. Octopus April 14 2020 15: 41 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        that Czechoslovakia, which had left us, did not become the drop that helped to keep the West from starting a new war against the USSR.

                        Some kind of controversial theory, no? The united forces of the West did not have enough to lime the USSR — tadam! - Czechoslovakia. Half.
                      3. qQQQ April 15 2020 09: 04 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Some kind of controversial theory, no?

                        No contradictions, Czechoslovakia was a very developed industrial region, and the Czechs themselves were very willing to work for those who at the moment owned the country.
                      4. Octopus April 15 2020 09: 25 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        No contradictions, Czechoslovakia was a very developed industrial region,

                        And why not take Germany for a war with the USSR? Moreover, it seems like she is already at war with the USSR? With the Czech Republic, by the way, together.
                      5. qQQQ April 15 2020 11: 01 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        And why not take Germany for a war with the USSR? Moreover, it seems like she is already at war with the USSR? With the Czech Republic, by the way, together.

                        It is possible, only with Czechoslovakia it would not work, we then took it. So you yourself gradually approached the topic: why did you take it.
                      6. Octopus April 15 2020 11: 39 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        It’s possible, only with Czechoslovakia it wouldn’t work, we then took it

                        A strange argument, actually. If they took Spain, it would have turned out even more reliable, as I understand it. Monument Konev Pavlov in Madrid.
                      7. qQQQ April 15 2020 12: 00 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        If they took Spain, it would have turned out even more reliable, as I understand it

                        It would have worked out, but we must always proceed from the opportunities that existed at that time, but they were for Czechoslovakia, but not for Spain.
                      8. Octopus April 15 2020 12: 09 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        but not for Spain.

                        Yes, that time the Nazis fought back.

                        Well, this point of view is quite acceptable. Soviet Union captured He liberated neighboring (it was already neighboring at that time, but was not before) countries so that he would not be attacked by the Americans (the Americans already care about the USSR, but it didn’t exist before).
                      9. qQQQ April 15 2020 14: 42 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        lest Americans attack him

                        Everything in the absolute is raised only by the Sith. But seriously, all the countries through which the spacecraft passed (except Poland, but it was covered up before that) were participants in the German aggression against the USSR, so, for good, they had to be torn three skins, and we allowed them to save face making victims of the German occupation. Here truly: do not do good, you will not receive evil.
                      10. Octopus April 15 2020 14: 55 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        we allowed them to save face by making victims of the German occupation. Here truly: do not do good, you will not receive evil.

                        Benefactors.

                        Especially this "we" always pleases.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        all countries through which the spacecraft passed

                        No. You forgot the countries through which the spacecraft passed to WWII (in addition to Poland, Spain and Asian affairs, there are 5 of them). As for the Second World War, in addition to the allies of Germany, the Soviet government freed Bulgaria and Yugoslavia from their governments. In Yugoslavia, however, she found a scythe on a stone.
                      11. qQQQ April 15 2020 15: 14 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Benefactors.

                        Namely, it was necessary to do with them the same way as they did with us on our territory. For information, Bulgaria was an ally of Hitler, and Yugoslavia was one of the few countries that really fought against fascism; there were no Soviet troops on their territory after the war. Yes, there was a difficult relationship, but this is a different story. And Spain, which side got on your list, do not confuse the actual deployment of troops and assistance with weapons and volunteers (almost the whole of Europe was noted there). For some reason, you in Ukraine think that volunteers are an occupation, but this is just the support of one of the parties in the civil war.
                      12. Octopus April 15 2020 15: 22 New
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                        Quote: qqqq
                        For information, Bulgaria was an ally of Hitler

                        For information, Bulgaria never fought with the USSR, but at the time of the liberation of this country comrade Tolbukhin was at war with Germany.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        and Yugoslavia was one of the few countries that really fought against fascism; there were no Soviet troops on their territory after the war.

                        Little good can be said about Comrade. Tito, but it’s possible. Therefore, I remembered the scythe.

                        They fought against fascism (more precisely, the German occupation, of course), including (and even basically) pro-English forces, of which Comrade In the years 45-46, Tito quickly shot or drove out of the country.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        Spain, what side did you get on your list, do not confuse the actual deployment of troops and assistance with weapons and volunteers (almost all of Europe was noted there).

                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and planes, with comrade Stalin, Lord, it will never end.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        For some reason, you in Ukraine think that volunteers are an occupation, but this is just the support of one of the parties in the civil war.

                        Yes, also a good example, thanks. But now is not about that.
                      13. Liam April 15 2020 15: 31 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and aircraft

                        PMC Pablo .. God forgive me
                      14. qQQQ April 15 2020 15: 34 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Bulgaria never fought with the USSR

                        I agree, I didn’t fight, but she was an ally of Germany, and this was food and weapons and the population that allowed the Germans to be freed for the war with us, for which she was slightly "scolded", but after the war our troops were not there.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and planes, with comrade Stalin, Lord, it will never end.

                        Never, one must understand the terms. You can not treat pneumonia calling it a broken leg, the result will be sad. No one in the world disputes the civilian character of the war in Spain in the 30s, except that, as it turned out, Ukraine.
                  2. qQQQ April 15 2020 15: 18 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    Especially this "we" always pleases.

                    And yes, WE are their descendants who understand the inextricable link between generations (at least it should be), but you, apparently, Ivan - does not remember kinship.
                  3. Octopus April 15 2020 15: 34 New
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                    Quote: qqqq
                    WE are their descendants

                    ))
                    No. The descendants of Stalin are very specific people. I would venture to admit that you are not one of them, and, in any case, I do not consider the actions of Stalin to be the fault of these people, much less their achievement.

                    As for the other ancestors, they were unlikely to make any foreign policy decisions at that time.

                    Quote: qqqq
                    but you, apparently, Ivan - who does not remember kinship.

                    I remember, but not proud. And I'm not ashamed. I have my sins. But they are only mine.
                  4. qQQQ April 15 2020 15: 37 New
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                    We didn’t relate specifically to Stalin; what side is it here? I remember and proud, then there really were people whom we can and should be proud of.
                  5. Octopus April 15 2020 16: 21 New
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                    Quote: qqqq
                    then there really were people whom we could and should be proud of.

                    And how can you be proud of other people, even if these are your relatives? If you were a relative, I don’t know, Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova, Hero of the Soviet Union, would you be proud of her flight of 1963? Would you be proud of her activities as a whole, from 1963 to the present?
                    Quote: qqqq
                    We didn’t relate specifically to Stalin; what side is it here?

                    Quote: qqqq
                    we allowed them to save face by making victims of the German occupation.

                    I would venture to admit that neither you, nor even your relatives were asked what to do with the countries of Eastern Europe. To allow and not allow there could be a very specific person.
                    Quote: qqqq
                    I agree, I didn’t fight, but she was an ally of Germany, and this is food and weapons and the population,

                    I know a few more countries that drove Adolf echelons of this and that. And what, free everyone?
                    Quote: qqqq
                    Nobody in the world disputes the civilian character of the war in Spain in the 30s

                    And who is now interested in this at all? If you mean that Comrade Negrin was mishandled, then no, he was not. The Soviet government was able to work with local cadres; this could not be taken away.
                  6. qQQQ April 16 2020 09: 06 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    I know a few more countries that drove Adolf echelons of this and that. And what, free everyone?

                    You in Ukraine go to extremes, release those whom you considered necessary and most importantly possible. Personally, I am proud of everything good, including people from the simplest to the greatest, that was in the USSR and I do not turn a blind eye to the terrible events that took place. This is our story and there is no getting away from it whether we want it or not. Pride in their ancestors does not allow them to fall below their level. The banal truth is that without the past there is no future. Unfortunately, you did not understand this in Ukraine.
                  7. Octopus April 16 2020 10: 40 New
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                    ))
                    I am glad to know that you take the problems of the Ukrainian people so close to your heart. True, I am far enough from them.

                    The idea that the Czecho-fascists and Bulgarian-fascists were able to and were released, but, for example, the fascist, Turkish-fascist and Swedish-fascists could not and were not released, I realized, thanks.
                  8. qQQQ April 16 2020 10: 51 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    I am glad to know that you take the problems of the Ukrainian people so close to your heart. True, I am far enough from them.

                    Very close, we are one people.
                    Quote: Octopus
                    The idea that the Czecho-fascists and Bulgarian-fascists were able to and were released, but, for example, the fascist, Turkish-fascist and Swedish-fascists could not and were not released, I realized, thanks.

                    You understood everything correctly (you couldn’t, didn’t consider it expedient, the damage from the release exceeded the benefits, etc.), thanks.
                2. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 29 New
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                  What does Ukraine have to do with it? He drove Dzhugashvili, because he was stupid, and hoped to weaken Germany and Britain at once, but because he wasn’t clever he liked a quarter of the country's population
        2. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 25 New
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          Oh my God quarantine, schoolchildren frolic, study history and not according to the memoirs of Zhukin and Vnukin, but according to documents
  2. Alexy April 15 2020 11: 50 New
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    How simple it is for you: take Germany, take Czechoslovakia, as if it were some kind of chips.
  3. Octopus April 15 2020 12: 11 New
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    Quote: Alexy
    take Germany, take Czechoslovakia, as if they were some kind of chips.

    Empire is such a thing. Hands themselves are drawn to colored pencils and maps of foreign countries, this is internal logic, the inexorable laws of history.
  4. begemot20091 April 15 2020 14: 33 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    Some kind of controversial theory, no? The united forces of the West did not have enough to lime the USSR — tadam! - Czechoslovakia. Half.

  5. Octopus April 14 2020 15: 42 New
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    Quote: qqqq
    All together with the wounded about 50

    In the typical Soviet division in May the 45th and 5th thousand people are seldom typed.
  • boris epstein April 14 2020 15: 55 New
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    There was, was the USSR in a position that it could seriously quarrel with the Americans.The Committee of Chiefs of Staff of the United States came to the conclusion that the landing on the Japanese islands and the battles there could last until August 1946 WITHOUT USSR help and cost the United States 1,5 million soldiers and officers. That is why in Yalta in 1945 the United States introduced a clause on the participation of the USSR in the war against Japan. Stalin signed, but with the condition, not earlier than 3 months after the Victory over Germany. Why? By that time, the term of the treaty between the USSR and Japan on neutrality, which Japan itself often violated, was ending. The USSR needed time to transfer the army. Why did the Americans need the participation of the USSR? On the mainland there was a millionth Kwantung army, if the Japanese had transferred it to their islands, the war would have dragged on longer than 1946. The clause on the unconditional surrender of Germany to ALL fronts was also registered in Yalta. When the Fylkin signed a letter in Reims, the Germans surrendered on divisions, corps and armies on the Western Front, and the Scerner and Wenk armies fought against the Red Army. purely Separat surrender, and Eisenhower himself perfectly understood and understood that Susloparov was not a figure of the scale to sign such a document. And when he realized that he hadn’t rented the number, he tried to hang out, but Truman desperately needed the USSR’s participation in the war against Japan and he immediately broke Eisenhower. Truman knew that in land battles the Red Army would break the horns of the American and English armies and that the French would not fight against the USSR. It was not for nothing that the Allies kept military equipment and weapons of the German divisions near the prisoner of war camps.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 16: 54 New
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      Quote: boris epstein
      There was, was the USSR in the position that it could seriously quarrel with the Americans.

      ))
      Again.
      Quote: boris epstein
      The U.S. Chief of Staff Committee concluded

      There is no such organization in the 45th year.
      Quote: boris epstein
      WITHOUT USSR help and cost the United States 1,5 million soldiers and officers

      These figures, one other better, were initially thrown to the press from MacArthur's headquarters (write about the principle more - they will give as much as you need, no one officially signed for them), and then they actively forced themselves to justify CiN. The American side has never connected these figures with the USSR for obvious reasons.
      Quote: boris epstein
      That is why in Yalta, 1945, the United States introduced a clause on the participation of the USSR

      There was no "point". There was a torn piece of paper that Roosevelt never showed to Congress. Neither Nimitz nor Marshall have anything to do with her appearance. According to the general madness of the idea, the paw of the State Department is felt. At that time, Stettinius.
      Quote: boris epstein
      but with the condition, not earlier than 3 months after the Victory over Germany. Why? By that time, the term of the treaty between the USSR and Japan on neutrality was ending,

      Lies. The agreement with Japan expired in the 46th year and did not intersect with the victory in Europe, the term of which at that time was not even known at a glance. In an alternative world with sane Roosevelt and / or the State Department, the very fact of the Soviet side’s attitude to its treaties could prompt the former to the right thoughts about the post-war world structure. But, as you know, did not push.
      Quote: boris epstein
      Why did the Americans need the participation of the USSR?

      Low is not necessary. It was necessary to avoid it at all costs. This was understood by the same Nimitz, but the questions of the war with the USSR were nevertheless somewhat higher than his level.
      Quote: boris epstein
      On the mainland there was a millionth Kwantung army if the Japanese transferred it to their islands

      Yeah. The Tsushima tunnel under the Sea of ​​Japan was almost finished.
      Quote: boris epstein
      The clause on the unconditional surrender of Germany to ALL fronts was also registered in Yalta.

      So what. Susloparov does not want to sign it - it means he does not want to, well, to fight over it, or what?
      Quote: boris epstein
      and the army of Scherner and Wenk fought against the Red Army

      Well, Scherner and Wenck of the Red Army did not like, what can I do?
      Quote: boris epstein
      fought against the Red Army. "Eisenhower did this from Jodl, frankly, by methods that did not honor him."

      Actually, that was the original German position. Do not bother them Eisenhower - they could have fought for another month. It was he who sold the immediate signing of the act. Actually, one could be grateful to him for this.
      Quote: boris epstein
      Susloparov is not a figure to sign such a document.

      Whose problems are these? Eisenhower?
      Quote: boris epstein
      Truman desperately needed the participation of the USSR in the war against Japan

      Truman, unfortunately, was tightly isolated by Roosevelt from the foreign policy and military agenda. Therefore, the first months he simply tried to follow the course of Roosevelt and the State Department, criminal and destructive. Fortunately for the USSR, Truman’s blindness lasted right up to and including Potsdam. Questions to the USSR he began to appear only in the fall: Turkey, Iran, Greece. But even then he was extremely far from a complete revision of relations with the USSR. It was worth the loss of China.
      Quote: boris epstein
      Truman knew that in land battles the Red Army would break the horns of the American and British armies

      The allies won’t stop the victorious Elbo-Rhine operation. They are again! - not ready for a new war. But after the Rhine of the USSR, the end was without options, the ten millionth Red Army would eat it like gangrene, literally eat it, even without military operations. Stalin, unlike the Allies, understands this very well. But on the other hand, Truman is out of his mind, the fart has gone, while they give it, we must take it. He took as much as he could until the bourgeois grabbed it, only the Straits again sailed away. It's not meant to be.
      Quote: boris epstein
      the French will not fight against the USSR.

      The French are not in a position to decide something. The USSR will go to the Rhine - they will conquer as nice.
      In any case, the French - this is 10% of the forces of the Allies, and given the quality - generally garbage.
      Quote: boris epstein
      It was not for nothing that the Allies kept military equipment and weapons of the German divisions near the prisoner of war camps.

      Ordinary sketch Comrade Molotov’s fan. In a world with rational Allies, they would either recognize the Doenitz government or already have their own ready-made anti-fascist government, some Speer Mine. And the German police forces, combatants, so to speak, under the command of the same constructive Kesselring, in the amount of 2-3 tank armies. Then yes, then the conversation is different.
      1. boris epstein April 15 2020 09: 16 New
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        It’s not for nothing that they rivet your minuses, although I don’t put a minus. You have some kind of objections. Particularly laughed: "Well, Scerner and Wenck of the Red Army did not like, what can I do?" And is this with German discipline? And this is not much better: "The French are not in a condition to decide something. If the USSR leaves the Rhine, they will conquer it as nice." The Red Army never and never intentionally deliberately violated the demarcation line, and if it happened, they immediately withdrawn the troops. There was no development by the General Staff of the Red Army operations on
        moving beyond the line of demarcation, although some marshals suggested this. But the Americans in the hunt for scientists, designers and documentation intervened in all other zones. Operation Alsos There were maneuverable special groups that did not report to the army command or the OSS, but to the head of the Manhattan project, General William Leslie Groves. Next: "Susloparov is a figure not of the scale to sign such a document.

        Whose problems are these? Eisenhower? "
        Susloparov received a decent bastard for this. Only four people were authorized to accept the surrender of Germany. Chief Commander I V Stalin, representatives of the Supreme Command High Command Marshals Zhukov and Vasilevsky and Colonel General Mehlis. And Eisenhower knew this and tried to lay a mine on the future for the possible denunciation of surrender. The latter’s candidacy was allotted by Stalin, chief of the General Staff AI Antonov and Marshal Vasilevsky (his memoirs “The Work of a Whole Life”) spoke in favor of Zhukov. This explains the appointment of Zhukov as commander of the 1st Belorussian Front instead of Rokossovsky. But Rokossovsky is also a sin to complain. He commanded the Victory Parade in Moscow.
        Another pearl: "But after the Rhine of the USSR, the end was without options, the ten millionth Red Army would eat it like gangrene, literally eat it, even without fighting." And what's the difference, would there be an Elbo-Rhine operation or not?
        “Comrade Molotov’s usual sketch of a fan.” Nu-nu. And Churchill’s planned operation, “Unthinkable,” which even the USA refused, the USSR’s help in the war with Japan was more expensive for them, and the atomic bomb was already on its way. It was she who hoped to intimidate the USSR and Stalin.
      2. Octopus April 15 2020 11: 24 New
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        Quote: boris epstein
        It was she who hoped to intimidate the USSR and Stalin.

        Another Truman's personal psychiatrist in the comments.
        Quote: boris epstein
        And Churchill’s planned operation "The Unthinkable", which even the USA refused

        1. The United States did not refuse the Unthinkable. This idea was not discussed at all with the United States. Churchill himself writes about the fact that it is impossible to count on the United States on this issue.
        2. Before the war, the United States and Britain with the USSR and its fighting hamsters - 5 years. The idea to think in this direction is not that correct, but very late.
        3. I have already spoken out on the unthinkable in this thread. A very late and poorly developed idea. Wake up Churchill immediately after Yalta, a lot could be done.
        Quote: boris epstein
        And what's the difference, would there be an Elbo-Rhine operation or not?

        No, this is what we are talking about. If the Allies manage to prevent the demobilization of the Red Army, the situation of the USSR is catastrophic without any military operations.
        Quote: boris epstein
        Only four people were authorized to accept the surrender of Germany. Commander-in-Chief I V Stalin, representatives of the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command, Marshals Zhukov and Vasilevsky, and Colonel General Mehlis

        Let them understand each other. Eisenhower these squabbles are indifferent. Who sent, that and signs.
        Quote: boris epstein
        But the Americans in the hunt for scientists, designers and documentation intervened in all other zones.

        You do not seem to be too up to date with the whole story.
        Quote: boris epstein
        There was no development by the General Staff of the Red Army operations on
        moving beyond the demarcation line,

        As if you are aware of what the General Staff and the headquarters of the fronts were doing at that time.
        Quote: boris epstein
        And it's not much better: "The French are not in that condition

        This thesis discussed your desire to wash your boots in the wrong places, it seems.
        Quote: boris epstein
        didn’t like Scherner and Wenck of the Red Army

        And what, should I seriously discuss this your thesis? Neither Wenck nor Sherner carried out offensive operations after May 6.
  • Icelord April 19 2020 20: 38 New
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    all lies when the ussr entered manchuria they already had an order to surrender, and no one would take Japan, they bombed until they cleaned
  • Dart April 15 2020 18: 27 New
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    It’s a pity, you can’t pull out the tentacles alive, I could, for my grandfather, for Stalin, for Zhukov!
    1. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 38 New
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      Oh couch terminator, uh
  • Fat
    Fat April 14 2020 11: 35 New
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    Quote: qqqq
    they had to accept the surrender of Germany together, and they did it on their own on May 8, which is why a second procedure took place even with all parties present. Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.

    On May 7 (!), An act of surrender was signed at 02.41 CET. Moreover, Eisenhower initially refused to sign this act for protocol reasons. Doenitz sent Jodl, the chief of staff of the operational leadership, and with a written power of attorney with the authority to sign unconditional surrender on ALL fronts. Jodl arrived in Reims in the evening of May 6. During the negotiations, Eisenhower threatened Jodla with the complete closure of the Allied front for refugees, up to the use of force. Jodl sent a radiogram to Doenitz. Keitel answered him, allegedly on behalf of Doenitz. Permission was obtained by Jodl by radio at 0.40.
    The signing ceremony was scheduled for 02.40. German troops were supposed to cease hostilities on May 23.01, May 8 ... This act from the Americans was signed by the chief of staff of the Allied Expeditionary Force Walter Bedell Smith ... The signing of the act should have been reported officially 36 hours after the signing of the act. May 8 at 3 pm ....
    Stalin:
    The agreement signed at Reims cannot be canceled, but it cannot be recognized. Surrender should be perpetrated as an important historical act and adopted not on the territory of the victors, but where the fascist aggression came from - in Berlin, and not unilaterally, but necessarily by the supreme command of all countries of the anti-Hitler coalition.

    “In response, the Allies agreed to hold the act’s re-signing ceremony in Berlin. Eisenhower informed Jodl that the German Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces was to appear for the final official procedure at the time and place that would be indicated by the Soviet and Allied commands.” - Wiki
    Eisenhower was about to arrive in Karlshorst in person. However, Churchill's objections followed ... From the Allies, in the end, the final act was signed by Eisenhower's deputy - Arthur Tedder ...
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 12: 02 New
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      Yes, this is a more or less official Soviet version. In principle, everything is true, the accents and nuances are somewhat controversially painted.

      Two points are noteworthy:
      1. Comrade Stalin and Mr. Churchill thought in historical terms, Americans did not.
      2. Eisenhower did not use his politically more advantageous position to play along with the Germans and redraw the FRG / GDR, if not territorially, then at least in part of the population (moreover, the idea of ​​the FRG / GDR did not occur to him then). Moreover, he was far from the idea of ​​patting the army of the future enemy with German hands for another week or two.
      1. Fat
        Fat April 14 2020 12: 42 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        in order to play along with the Germans and redraw the FRG / GDR, if not territorially, then at least in part of the population (moreover, the idea of ​​the FRG / GDR did not occur to him then). Moreover, he was far from the idea of ​​patting the army of the future enemy with German hands for another week or two.

        Yes, yes, especially with regard to the German population ... It is ridiculous even to assume that Eisenhower did not know about the Morgenthau plan, which, although it was criticized and rejected, was partially implemented until 1947 ... He did not give a damn about the German population .. .
        In 1947, former US President Herbert Hoover, after visiting a de-industrialized Germany, wrote:
        “It is an illusion that annexed New Germany can be turned into an agrarian state. "This is unattainable until we destroy or remove 25 million people from it.” In 1948, the "Marshall Plan" began to work ....
        Well, Churchill in April 45 was already planning the "unthinkable" ....
        "According to the professor of Edinburgh University, D. Erickson, Churchill’s plan helps explain," why Marshal Zhukov unexpectedly decided to regroup his forces in June 1945, received an order from Moscow to strengthen the defense and study in detail the deployment of troops of the Western Allies. Now the reasons are clear: obviously, Churchill’s plan became known in advance to Moscow, and the Soviet General Staff took appropriate countermeasures. "The plan of Operation Unthinkable was indeed transferred to the USSR by the Cambridge Five Wiki
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 14: 43 New
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          Quote: Thick
          Eisenhower did not know about the Morgenthau plan,

          What I love pro-Soviet citizens for (I love a lot) is also for actively addressing the creative heritage of Dr. Goebbels. So Morgenthau’s plan arrived.

          Eisenhower knew not only about the Morgenthau plan, but also Morgenthau personally. Among other things, he knew (and wrote) that Morgenthau is the US Treasury Secretary, who is climbing into his own business with his absurd initiatives. Which, by the way (this is not Aiki writing anymore), does great harm to the cause of victory, exposing Americans to greater cannibals than the Soviets. Speaking of effective President Roosevelt and his entourage.
          Quote: Thick
          In 1947, former US President Herbert Hoover,

          In fact, the “Morgenthau plan” was leaked to the press almost immediately, not the Republican Hoover, but his own, with the goal of shutting down Morgenthau’s activity. Usually called Minister of War Stimson, also that same fruit. It was absolutely impossible to push such a thing through Congress (in contrast, I note, from the opposite in terms of the meaning of the Marshall plan).
          Quote: Thick
          and Churchill in April 45 was already planning the "unthinkable"

          Meaningless. The plan was so absurd that it wasn’t even shown to the Americans. In fact, in June the SES headquarters was liquidated and the withdrawal of American troops from Europe began.

          On the other hand, the situation with the Unthinkable shows the extent to which Churchill was weaker than Chamberlain as a politician. If Chamberlain, who returned from Munich, did not experience any illusions and launched virtually open mobilization, then Churchill, judging by the same Unthinkable, simply thumped a couple of months and wrote meaningless telegrams to his dear comrade K.U.Chernenko Roosevelt. Basically not coming to consciousness. He began a healthy anti-Soviet policy at least in February of the 45th, at least where he was not tied up by the insane Americans at that time - it could have spoiled the massacre of the USSR. Had he managed to put together an anti-Soviet group of Truman, Marshall and Harriman (the US ambassador to the USSR) by April (all three belonged to the USSR without tenderness by the 45th year) - he could have achieved a lot in the summer, including the liberation of Poland, without war.
        2. Fat
          Fat April 14 2020 17: 11 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          In fact, the “Morgenthau plan” was leaked to the press almost immediately, not the Republican Hoover, but his own, with the goal of shutting down Morgenthau’s activity. Usually called Minister of War Stimson, also that same fruit.

          Actually, the main part of the Morgenthau plan was written by Harry Dexter White, so at least the son of Morgenthau thought. White’s department employee leaked the plan to the press (I bet. He recruited staff to his department ignoring the usual rules for civil servants at that time, checking with the security agencies). And White himself handed over the details of the plan to Soviet intelligence.
          Naturally, Roosevelt publicly abandoned his intentions because of the scandal ....
          And Goebels kefir went for little need from happiness ...
          White’s actions also helped the USSR, giving at least some guarantee against concluding a separate peace between the West and the Nazis. But still, the plan significantly influenced the further occupation policy ... (JCS Directive 1067. It was valid until the summer of 1947)
          The destruction of German heavy industry (already agreed in Potsdam) continued until 1951 ...
          Interestingly, after the Bretton Woods Conference, White was for some time the director and representative of the United States in the IMF ... Until June 1947.
          In August 48, White gave evidence to the Anti-American Commission ...
          He declared that he was not a communist ... and later died
        3. Octopus April 14 2020 17: 28 New
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          Quote: Thick
          And White himself handed over the details of the plan to Soviet intelligence.
          Naturally, Roosevelt publicly abandoned his intentions because of the scandal ....

          )))
          Actually there is an opposite opinion. That all this hat was written in the Comintern. Comrade Stalin himself at that time was a bunny, Hitlers come and go, that's all. One way or another, the episode with the Plan confirms that Comrade Stalin understood about PR not in an example better than the vaunted Americans.

          The Germans, however, did not really buy Stalinism with a human face.

          Quote: Thick
          And Goebels kefir went for little need from happiness ...

          Yes Yes. What kind of raises questions to whom it was all profitable in the end.

          Quote: Thick
          In August 48, White gave evidence to the Anti-American Commission ...

          It is incredibly unfortunate that the work of this commission was compromised. Cleaning the state apparatus from people with good faces after Roosevelt was more important than ever.
        4. Liam April 14 2020 17: 36 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          what comrade Stalin understood about PR

          How Comrade Stalin understood PR clearly demonstrates a replica about the divisions of the pope
        5. Octopus April 14 2020 17: 41 New
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          Quote: Liam
          How Comrade Stalin understood PR clearly demonstrates a replica about the divisions of the pope

          )))
          He said rashly. Forgive grandfather for unexpected directness. You never know what memories of seminary he had left, now all sorts of stories can be heard about these institutions ... repeat
  • Andron59 April 14 2020 14: 23 New
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    The Americans were so far from the idea of ​​shaking the Russians with German hands that they left the captive Germans in the camps in their military units and subunits, so that, in cases of need, they would simply give out weapons and join the battle against the SC. And during the war they prepared the "Unthinkable" plan for a joint war between the USA, Britain, France, Germany and the rest against the USSR.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 14: 55 New
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      Quote: Andron59
      The Americans were so far from the idea of ​​patting the Russians with German hands that they left the captive Germans in the camps in their military units and units

      With the preservation of personal weapons to officers. And in Northern Europe, especially Norway, the Germans were generally self-governing, until their hands reached them, all summer. Comrade Stalin liked to troll the Allies on this occasion.

      So what?

      Quote: Andron59
      in case of need, just give out weapons and go into battle against the spacecraft together

      What other weapons? Shovel cuttings, like Mikhalkov’s?

      Do you realize that the army is not a millionth crowd of people, albeit armed, but an organization? And the mere mention of these unfortunate Germans in the Unthinkable shows what hat this whole project was?
    2. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 43 New
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      But to read Western historians in any way? Or lie? True, a locksmith, a turner or a janitor, lack of knowledge of the language will probably hinder
    3. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 46 New
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      This is I andron, I agree with the octopus, the Germans did the same, they left the allied officers and they had to monitor the order, they answer
  • blackice April 15 2020 11: 32 New
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    Yes, this is a more or less official Soviet version

    No further dialogue.
    Even this phrase is not necessary to comment.
    Everyone won, the USSR just stood by.
    1. Octopus April 15 2020 12: 18 New
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      Quote: blackice
      Everyone won, the USSR just stood by.

      On the contrary.

      For many years, the Soviet side regarded the Second World War as an episode and the highest manifestation of the struggle of the Soviet state against its capitalist encirclement, including against the battering ram of world imperialism - Hitler Germany. Other WWII events were considered as insignificant and peripheral. Including the problem of imperialist contradictions between Britain, the USA and Germany.

      Liberals from the late 80s began to declare that it was not so, that the USSR was a member of WWII, that is, it fought with Germany on the side of Great Britain.

      The Soviet side was telling the truth (with the exception of nuances), and the liberals were lying. The USSR never fought on the side of Great Britain. The USSR fought on its own, and only on its side.

      I am always ready to support the Soviet side when it is for the truth. It is rarely possible to do this.
    2. Icelord April 19 2020 20: 47 New
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      Everyone won and the USSR too
  • qQQQ April 14 2020 14: 31 New
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    Thanks for the information.
  • Olgovich April 14 2020 09: 33 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    Accurate cornering

    Do you think I need your instructions? lol
    Quote: Octopus
    Marshal of Victory and a good chief of the General Staff - is it the same thing for you, or what?

    Didn’t get it? belay

    I explain: he is a good chief of the General Staff and he is also the Marshal of Victory.
    Quote: Octopus
    Malenkov. Because at one time he tried to attract aviators and Malenkov too.

    I do not know this Secretary General request
    Quote: Octopus
    That is, we do not believe Stalin, but do we believe Khrushchev?

    We believe the last VALID decision of the COURT today.

    Gossip lover?

    You are welcome..

    And fire me.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 09: 49 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      Do you think I need your instructions?

      Apparently, they will not help.
      Quote: Olgovich
      he is a good chief of the General Staff

      Ah, that’s OK. And in your version of the story was treacherous assaultor not already?
      Quote: Olgovich
      We believe the last VALID decision of the COURT today.

      Wow, there are people who believe in the Soviet court. And what kind of trial is it over Zhukov, I don’t remember? Or are you talking about the trial of Abakumov?
      1. Olgovich April 14 2020 10: 02 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Apparently, they will not help.

        Then what? request
        Quote: Octopus
        Ah, that’s OK. And in your version of the story was a treacherous attack, or not?

        In History, it was.
        Quote: Octopus
        Wow, there are people who believe in the Soviet court. And what kind of trial is it over Zhukov, I don’t remember? Or are you talking about the trial of Abakumov?

        1. The decision is not challenged by the Court of the Russian Federation.
        And you need to believe, apparently .... you? belay lol laughing

        2. Let me remind you that I already REMINDED to you:
        I remind that all generals destroyed in a trophy were rehabilitated , and the charges are recognized as false.

        The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev.
    2. rich April 14 2020 22: 43 New
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      Andrei, with all due respect to your knowledge, is more inclined to agree with the opinion of the Octopus.
      Quote: Octopus: ... because at one time I was trying to pull aviators into the business


      Felix Chuev. "Soldiers of the Empire. Part 1" Conversations with the Chief Marshal of Aviation A.E. Golovanov ":
      ".... It’s impossible to deny Zhukov’s merit, especially at the end of the war. But they don’t like him in the army. For his rudeness, hooting, arrogance .. They don’t like him .. Especially the aviators. They can remember a lot .. and Yasha Smushkevich, ADD - this is his brainchild, and not mine ... and Vanya and Nina Kopets, do you think Felix, Ivan shot himself from fear of the German? .. I know what I’m talking about. George then put his hand to many .. and the truth-teller Pavel Rychagov, and the smartest Misha Kaganovich, and Mironov, and Shevchenko, and the hero of long-distance flights, the best pilot of the USSR, Sasha Filin ... all the pre-war losses of our aircraft were not to list .... "
      1. Olgovich April 15 2020 07: 21 New
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        Quote: Rich
        Andrei, with all due respect to your knowledge, is more inclined to agree with the opinion of the Octopus.
        Quote: Octopus: ... because at one time I tried to pull in case aviators

        hi
        1. The octopus writes completely about ANOTHER is the so-called. 1946 aviation business as a result of which in the spring of 1946 the leaders of the aviation industry and the command of the USSR Air Force were arrested.

        Smushkevichi and pr-destroyed in the war and before the war.
        Quote: Rich
        Many can recall him .. and Yasha Smushkevich, ADD is his brainchild, and not mine ... and Vanya and Nina Kopets, do you think Felix, Ivan shot himself from fear of a German? ..I know what I'm talking about. Then George put a hand to many .. and the truth-seeker Pavel Rychagov, and the smartest Misha Kaganovich, and Mironov, and Shevchenko, and the hero of long-distance flights, the best pilot of the USSR Sasha Filin ...all the pre-war losses of our aircraft cannot be listed.... "


        Let this remain on Golovanov’s conscience: to the Tukhachevsky, Vavilov, Tupolev, Rykov, Tolmachev, etc. etc., too ..... George put a hand?

        And our losses before the war, indeed, can’t be listed: the huge damage of engineers, commanders, writers, teachers, peasants and workers.
        And it was Zhukov who sought the restoration of justice in relation to the repressed military.
        1. rich April 15 2020 07: 35 New
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          . The octopus writes completely about ANOTHER is the so-called. The aviation business of 1946, as a result of which in the spring of 1946 the leaders of the aviation industry and the command of the USSR Air Force were arrested.

          My puncture. I got lost in dates. request
          1. boris epstein April 15 2020 09: 35 New
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            Here for this respect. Admitting a mistake requires considerable courage.
        2. ccsr April 15 2020 12: 19 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          Let this remain on Golovanov’s conscience: to the Tukhachevsky, Vavilov, Tupolev, Rykov, Tolmachev, etc. etc., too ..... George put a hand?

          A well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great people was instilled into me by several retired colonels who went through the war in small valleys, but ended their service in the General Staff and realized much of those events already on the basis of their service. As a rule, they did not disregard all the memoirs that appeared at that time, and after reading, they exchanged their opinions. I can say that they did not have admiration for the memoirs of Zhukov or Golovanov - they noticed where the authors are engaged in settling accounts, and where they distort the situation, as is the case with the same cases of aviators, which Zhukov certainly had nothing to do with before the war. So it’s better to study history from documents — it will be easier to avoid bias in evaluating those events. Although not everything is true in documents ...
          1. Olgovich April 15 2020 12: 48 New
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            Quote: ccsr
            A well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great people was instilled into me by several retired colonels who went through the war in small valleys, but ended their service in the General Staff and realized much of those events already on the basis of their service. As a rule, they did not disregard all the memoirs that appeared at that time, and after reading, they exchanged their opinions. I can say that they did not have admiration for the memoirs of Zhukov or Golovanov - they noticed where the authors are engaged in settling accounts, and where they distort the situation, as is the case with the same cases of aviators, which Zhukov certainly had nothing to do with before the war. So it’s better to study history from documents — it will be easier to avoid bias in evaluating those events. Although not everything is true in documents ...

            I agree.

            Moreover, in 1941 Golovanov himself was practically NIKEM, had no access to higher spheres and simply could not know for certain.

            That is, again, gossip, rumors and conjectures are at the heart of ...
            1. ccsr April 15 2020 13: 34 New
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              Quote: Olgovich
              Moreover, in 1941 Golovanov himself was practically NIKEM, had no access to higher spheres and simply could not know for certain.

              Yes, that was exactly so - he was an insignificant person at that time, and was not allowed to the very top.
              Quote: Olgovich
              That is, again, gossip, rumors and conjectures are at the heart of ...

              Many people with an impeccable biography also have such a sin, because sometimes they themselves sometimes unreasonably believe those from whom they receive information.
            2. zenion April 15 2020 17: 51 New
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              You probably did not even serve as an ordinary in the army. If in the vast expanses of the USSR some kind of at least a small emergency took place, then later on during the construction of the unit, the chief of staff, or whoever was assigned to read it at the construction so that this would not happen. In addition, when Zhukov took up the post of chief of the General Staff, and General Pavlov his position in the KOVO, military exercises were held. Where Zhukov played for the blue, and Pavlov for the red. As Zhukov brags in his memoirs, he defeated Pavlov’s troops in a bounce. And despite the fact that he attacked the Reds through Belarus, which the Germans did later, Zhukov sent all his forces to Ukraine, he was waiting for a blow from there. What kind of strategist is he, if what and where ... What is his genius to carry out the orders of the Commander-in-Chief? Everyone knew that if a lot of equipment and stuff had been brought to the front, then Zhukov would be sent to command and watch. It was like the Fanfan Tulip movie. Where does the king ask the marshal what losses are planned? About 8 thousand people. No need to be greedy; more losses must be planned. This is the same for the story.
              1. Olgovich April 15 2020 20: 53 New
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                Quote: zenion
                You probably did not even serve as an ordinary in the army. If in the vast expanses of the USSR some kind of at least a small emergency took place, then later on during the construction of the unit, the chief of staff, or whoever was assigned to read it at the construction so that this would not happen.

                What did you mean? belay
                Quote: zenion
                In addition, when Zhukov took up the post of chief of the General Staff, and General Pavlov his position in the KOVO, military exercises were held. Where Zhukov played for the blue, and Pavlov for the red. As Zhukov brags in his memoirs, he defeated Pavlov’s troops in a bounce. And despite the fact that he attacked the Reds through Belarus, which the Germans did later, Zhukov sent all his forces to Ukraine, he was waiting for a blow from there. What kind of strategist is he, if what and where ... What is his genius to carry out the orders of the Commander-in-Chief? Everyone knew that if a lot of equipment and stuff had been brought to the front, then Zhukov would be sent to command and watch. It was like the Fanfan Tulip movie. Where does the king ask the marshal what losses are planned? About 8 thousand people. No need to be greedy; more losses must be planned. This is the same for the story.

                lol
                And the commander in chief .... from above prompted, yeah
          2. Albert1988 April 15 2020 20: 20 New
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            Quote: ccsr
            Well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great men instilled in me several retired colonels

            In historical science there is such a term - "narrative source" - that is, in fact, the opinion of one particular person, a reflection of his vision and ideas about the situation. And all historians understand that such sources of faith are completely absent, because:
            Quote: ccsr
            where the authors deal with billing, and where they distort the situation,

            Therefore, to confirm information in a narrative source, it is always checked with information in sources from other eyewitnesses / participants in the situation, well, various documentary sources must necessarily confirm))
      2. blackice April 15 2020 11: 40 New
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        I especially liked that the author was a poet and publicist. 1998 edition.
        From what first hand did the author get the docks?
        In those years, I could write a book on any topic, sweat from the first-hand view and no one would ask for it, even if it was an impudent lodge, mixed with fiction. Frantic freedom of speech.
        Especially from the publishing house "Ark".
        From this publisher came all the "most compelling evidence" about everything.
    3. Pilat2009 April 15 2020 20: 44 New
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      Quote: Olgovich
      I explain: he is a good chief of the General Staff and he is also the Marshal of Victory.

      If he is a good NGS, then well, he was removed from this post?
  • Krasnoyarsk April 14 2020 09: 49 New
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    Quote: Olgovich

    Quote: Octopus
    And what does it mean to denigrate? Zhukov was a bad chief of the General Staff - is it a slander or not?
    It's a lie.

    As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
    And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
    You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.
    Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.
    Without detracting from the merits of G.K. Zhukov, who undoubtedly were, one must nevertheless soberly evaluate this personality. Paying tribute to G.K.Zhukov, I would again, nevertheless, not have addressed him the words that the American general had addressed.

    “In the year of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is raised as an icon embodying the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image of this man on a white horse who has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "
    The icon was not him, but I.V. Stalin. And deserved.
    1. Olgovich April 14 2020 10: 12 New
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      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
      And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
      You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

      Name the POSSIBLE in his position, but "measures" that he did not carry out.

      To build new plants who did not bother to build in the 1930s and began to build only in 1940-41?

      This is not the case of the Army General Staff.
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.

      certainly, and this reproach is not for him.
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Without detracting from the merits of G.K. Zhukov, who undoubtedly were, one must nevertheless soberly evaluate this personality. Paying tribute to G.K.Zhukov, I would again, nevertheless, not have addressed him the words that the American general had addressed.

      “On the anniversary of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is being raised as an icon that embodies the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image this man on a white horsewho has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "

      That is the way it is!
      And it was Zhukov who was an icon and deservedly hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on a white horse and no one else is worthy of him anymore! And he deserves it!

      Unfortunately this is not a lie. It is a fact. And there was a court of officer honor that was attended, I will not list, by front-line generals and Stalin.

      Dirty, roughly cooked up by Avvakumov, FALSE.

      The generals who were shot in the trophy case are acquitted, Avakumov was planted by Stalin and destroyed by the Khrushchev.
      1. Krasnoyarsk April 14 2020 10: 49 New
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        Quote: Olgovich

        And it was Zhukov who was the icon and deservedly hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on a white horse and no one else is this

        Well maybe, maybe. But Comrade Stalin praised T. Zhukov as he spoke with K. Simonov (do you know this?) - = Zhukov has flaws, some of his qualities were not liked at the front, (you don’t know which ones?) But I must say that he fought better than Konev and NOT Worse than Rokossovsky. =
        That is, if you translate these words, it turns out that Rokossovsky fought better.
        These are the tomatoes.
        Don’t worry, I’m in no way diminishing the merits of Georgy Konstantinovich.
        1. Olgovich April 14 2020 11: 41 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          oh comrade Stalin, T. Zhukov was so praised when talking with K. Simonov (do you know this?) - = Zhukov has flaws, some of his qualities were not liked at the front, (you don’t know which ones?) but I must say that he fought better than Konev and NOT Worse than Rokossovsky. =
          That is, if you translate these words, it turns out that Rokossovsky fought better.
          These are the tomatoes.

          Tomatoes are that military commandership is objectively evaluated not by politicians, but by other commanders and other people
          1. Krasnoyarsk April 15 2020 09: 19 New
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            Quote: Olgovich

            Tomatoes are that military commandership is objectively evaluated not by politicians, but by other commanders and other people

            In your opinion, Generalissimo Stalin cannot objectively evaluate the military leadership skill of Marshal Zhukov?
            I recommend - Yu.I. Mukhin "The War and Us".
            1. Olgovich April 15 2020 10: 41 New
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              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              In your opinion, Generalissimo Stalin cannot objectively evaluate the military leadership skill of Marshal Zhukov?

              Stalin is a politician.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I recommend - Yu.I. Mukhin "The War and Us".

              This person is sick:
              - T. D. Lysenko was right in all the main provisions of his theory, and his opponents were pseudoscientific charlatans;

              - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

              - September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in the United States, carried out, according to Mukhin, the US CIA;

              etc.
              1. Krasnoyarsk April 15 2020 12: 35 New
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                Quote: Olgovich

                This person is sick:
                - T. D. Lysenko was right in all the main provisions of his theory, and his opponents were pseudoscientific charlatans;

                Of course - sick. After all, it was his students who, under his leadership, brought forth new varieties of wheat, which we still use in Europe. True, genetics also bred new varieties of wheat, only they do not produce offspring. And the Duma, probably also sick, since it banned the import of genomically modified products.
                Quote: Olgovich

                - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

                Those who cultivated chernozem will understand what it is about. Did you process? I am.
                Quote: Olgovich


                - September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in the United States, carried out, according to Mukhin, the US CIA;

                Not, well, if the Arabs managed to tear off their wings from a Boeing in flight, and only then cut it into the wall of the Pentagon, then - yes, they are parasites.
                1. Olgovich April 15 2020 13: 45 New
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                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                  Of course - sick. After all, it was his students who, under his leadership, brought forth new varieties of wheat, which we still use in Europe.

                  Yeah, the whole world, yes ...

                  There are NO other varieties lol
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  True, genetics also bred new varieties of wheat, only they do not produce offspring.

                  belay lol
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                  - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

                  Those who cultivated chernozem will understand what it is about. Did you process? I am.

                  Millions of peasants "crazy!", Yes.

                  And with collectivization, everything "coincided" coincided fool

                  Remember, by the way, that this is the first famine in the world, not only by the number of victims, but also by the fact that it was caused in peacetime. unnatural reasons.

                  Krasnoyarsk and ... chernozem ?! belay
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Not, well, if the Arabs managed to tear off their wings from a Boeing in flight, and only then cut it into the wall of the Pentagon, then - yes, they are parasites.

                  Apparently, the CIA talked about the torn wings with a fly, on the ear. lol
                2. Krasnoyarsk April 16 2020 14: 25 New
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                  [quote = Olgovich] But there are NO other varieties [/ quote]
                  Well, why, there is, but not for our climatic zones. [Quote = Olgovich] [quote = Olgovich] And with collectivization everything "coincided" coincidentally [/ quote]
                  Of course not. Because the peasants and slaughtered the oxen, so as not to turn over to the collective farm. [Quote = Olgovich]
                  Remember, by the way, that this is the first famine in the world, not only by the number of victims, but also by the fact that it was caused in peacetime by unnatural reasons. [/ Quote]
                  Well, yes, the "great depression in the United States," which claimed more than 5 million. lives from starvation, also arranged by the Bolsheviks, and also in these same 32-33 years.
                  And about the "unnatural causes" check out -
                  = The system of land use that had developed in the USSR in the mid-20s (individual land use in traditional farming), monocultures, and a low level of agricultural technology and the chemicalization of agriculture led to extreme clogging of the fields and widespread development of phytopathological infections and crop pests. Despite the organization of large farms and an attempt to eliminate the backwardness of agricultural technology, grain production in the USSR was programmed for a massive outbreak of weeds, pests and diseases, which happened in 20 in all the major grain-producing regions of the USSR. As a result of catastrophic epiphytoties and epizootics of weed vegetation, several groups of pests and fungal diseases of agricultural crops in 1932, catastrophic crop losses were observed in grain-producing regions of the USSR. Due to the defeat of fungal infections and weeds, the highest level of infection and contamination of the grain, as well as a significant deterioration in its quality, were noted. A quarter to half of the gross grain harvest of 1932 was clogged and of extremely poor quality. In grain-producing regions, from 1932 to 30% of grain was unsuitable for use as food. The most affected were the main grain producing regions - Ukraine and the North Caucasus, where the highest mortality was observed in 70. Thus, weeds, diseases and pests of crops are one of the leading factors in crop failure, poor quality of grain and famine of 1933-1932. =
                  = One of the common myths is the continuation of the export of grain by the Soviet Union during the famine of 1932-33. On the contrary, despite the huge currency shortage to continue industrialization, in 1932 Stalin first stopped exporting wheat, and then began to buy it in Canada, Australia, Persia and other countries. =
                  Well, of course, one cannot reduce everything to "natural phenomena, etc." No one denies leadership miscalculations in planning. In an unjustified overpriced crop forecast of 32 years. But do not forget that the country was in dire need of currency for industrialization. Which, subsequently, made it possible to win the war with Germany.
                  You just need to not prejudice these tragic pages of our history. And talking about the purposefulness of hunger is the height of id-io-tiz-ma [quote = Olgovich]
                  Apparently, the CIA talked about the torn wings with a fly, on the ear. [/ quote]
                  No. The fact is that the hole punched by a Boeing in the wall of the Pentagon, in size with some stretch, corresponded to the fuselage without wings. Koi, like engines, evaporated. Everything burned down, the commission of inquiry said, although the passports of the Arab terrorists survived.
                3. Olgovich April 16 2020 14: 52 New
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                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Well, why, there is, but not for our climatic zones

                  For ALL there is.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Of course not. Therefore, the peasants also slaughtered the oxen so as not to surrender to the collective farm.

                  Are they crazy? All millions at once? To kill yourself?
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  yes, "the great depression in the United States," which claimed more than 5 million. lives from starvation, also arranged by the Bolsheviks, and also in these same 32-33 years.

                  She took nothing away. This is the Dumb lie of post-communist propaganda
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  The system of land use that had developed in the USSR in the mid-20s (individual land use in traditional farming), monoculture, and a low level of agricultural technology and the chemicalization of agriculture led

                  Why do I need this BAD?

                  Harvest 32 Mr. worse than 31 years old (STALIN) and ... millions of corpses and mass cannibalism.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  And talking about the focus of hunger is the height of id-io-tiz-ma

                  Certainly.

                  This is the result of inability to think and manage.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  No. The fact is that the hole punched by a Boeing in the wall of the Pentagon, in size with some stretch, corresponded to the fuselage without wings. Koi, like engines, evaporated. Everything burned down, the commission of inquiry said, although the passports of the Arab terrorists survived.

                  Present the opinion of the commission of inquiry on these issues.
                4. Krasnoyarsk April 16 2020 15: 04 New
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                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Are they crazy? All millions at once? To kill yourself?

                  And how do you explain the current situation in Ukraine?
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  She took nothing away. This is the Dumb lie of post-communist propaganda

                  Yeah Well, what can I say? He who has eyes, "yes, read." Of course, if you wish. But ... It is very scary to part with illusions. This will have to rethink your entire worldview. And this is so scary.
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  Present the opinion of the commission of inquiry on these issues.

                  Yeah, I ran away. Those who want to figure it out on their own will find the info. And, most importantly, not from one source.
                5. Olgovich April 16 2020 15: 13 New
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                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  And how do you explain the current situation in Ukraine?

                  You ... what, what's the connection?
                  In Russia, Kazakhstan, the same thing happened. if anything..
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Yeah Well, what can I say? He who has eyes, "yes, read." Of course, if you wish. But ... It is very scary to part with illusions. This will have to rethink your entire worldview. And this is so scary.

                  Clear .
                  therefore, you don’t want to part with what you believed in for decades — no one wants to admit that you were fooled ...
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Yeah, I ran away. Those who want to figure it out on their own will find the info. And, most importantly, not from one source.

                  Those. chatter.
                  Rt
  • ccsr April 14 2020 12: 17 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
    And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
    You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

    Firstly, Zhukov was appointed an NGS only in January 1941, and this alone explains why he did not take place as a talented NGS before the war - the cat wept about his experience in such a position.
    Secondly, only in March 1941 did the NGS Zhukov G.K. became responsible for communications in the Red Army, and until that time there was, to put it mildly, a big mess with communications in our armed forces, led by the people's commissar of defense:
    So, four bodies were directly involved in providing communications to the Supreme Aviation Commission: the USKA, the communications department of the Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army, the NKS and the NKVD of the USSR.
    A similar situation was in the front and in the army. Besides
    of the communications directorates (departments) of these associations, there were NCC field communications bodies (Upolesvyazi at the front headquarters and the field department
    communications at the headquarters of the army) with their units and units. Besides
    In addition, the Navy, Air Force and Air Defense communications departments operated independently
    country. The multi-departmental leadership of communications is extremely negative
    reflected on her condition and, ultimately, led to a crisis situation in which the military connection of the army was
    at the beginning of the war.

    http://vk.sibsutis.ru/articles/2010__(p20-27).PDF
    So Zhukov was unlikely to be able to instantly solve the problems with communications in the troops that had accumulated over many years.

    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.

    I completely agree with this, only for objectivity it should be noted that Zhukov had nothing to do with this, given that he occupied his first large post - the commander of the KOVO - in the summer of 1940. How could he influence this issue in the pre-war army - no way, because his rank in the armed forces until January 1941 was not so significant.
    I am far from thinking of admiring Zhukov’s entire military activity, but I consider it a mistake to blame him for what he is practically not at all to blame.
    His serious flaw on the eve of the war, I believe that he did not insist on the General Staff checking the passage of the combat signal to the cover units, in order to clarify their readiness and the real time of the signal passing to various authorities, which affected on June 22 when some units were taken by surprise.
    Of the strategic mistakes that he made before June 22, I consider only one serious one - he personally did not insist in Stalin’s office to enter cover plans with a short team, and not with a spatial Directive, which was not only brought up for a long time, was also interpreted differently in the districts. He apparently couldn’t forgive himself for the rest of his life, and why this issue was always bypassed.
    1. AAK
      AAK April 14 2020 14: 49 New
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      Colleague, do not tell with your eulogy ... What else could have turned out to be the chief of the General Staff from a general who wrote in his pre-war certification (30s): "ORGANICALLY HATE STAFF WORK ..." As for the nickname of Zhukov in the title of this article, then not one of the people's commissars of defense and none of the "Stalinist marshals", whatever the "miracles" were attributed to them, was still not called the "Butcher" ... His main merit is the guaranteed fulfillment of orders at any cost, for which he was awarded by Stalin. Well, I didn’t read a better description of Zhukov’s generals and other “talents” than that of Volodya Rezun’s enemy, in his books “Shadow of Victory” and “Take Your Words Back” (as well as competent and reasoned criticism, which completely refute the content of these books), with which, incidentally, the opinion of the late father and uncle who fought from 1942 to 1945 was completely correlated
      1. ccsr April 14 2020 17: 43 New
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        Quote: AAK
        What else could the chief of the General Staff turn out to be of a general who, in pre-war attestation (the 30s), wrote: "ORGANICALLY HATE STAFF WORK ..."

        I know examples when some bosses, in revenge to those to whom they had a personal dislike, wrote more worthless characteristics. Or maybe you do not know what Ustinov did with Ogarkov, which he did not like?
        Quote: AAK
        His main merit is the guaranteed execution of orders "at any cost", for which he was awarded by Stalin.

        We must not forget that Zhukov received his first awards in World War II in 1943 - so it seems that Stalin did not really appreciate him at the beginning of the war:
        In 1943, Zhukov was awarded two orders of Suvorov, one of which was for No. 1, and the second for No. 39.

        Quote: AAK
        Well, I didn’t read a better description of Zhukov’s generals and other “talents” than that of Volodya Rezun’s enemy, in his books “Shadow of Victory” and “I Take My Words Back”

        Maybe you just read a little, if Rezun is considered an authoritative "writer"?
        1. AAK
          AAK April 14 2020 22: 35 New
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          A colleague, I read quite a lot, starting from THREE varying degrees of complementarity and reliability of the editions of the memoir of the marshal of victory (written, except for chapters about youth and the civil war, in the style of the journal "Agitator's Notebook"), memoirs listed by colleagues of marshals and generals: Rokossovsky, Vasilevsky , Konev, Golovanov, Shtemenko, Zakharov, many other books about the war from quite objective to the eulogies of Chakovsky and Stadnyuk. Rezuna mentioned only because his books contain the most complete compilation of Zhukovsky acts ...
          As for the text of Zhukov’s certification, its lack of culture, lack of education, primarily military (even in absentia did not study at the military academy in absentia, the highest level - KKUKS in the 20s), rudeness and conceit are reflected to a minimum degree. the warlords who knew him wrote off about him much harder, but his fight with Konev at the government reception was just a cherry on the cake ...
          As for the awards “only in 1943,” Stalin in 1941–42 didn’t award him any higher — he didn’t shoot him, and he deservedly, although at that time a lot of people put him to the wall (including including by orders of the most brass horseman on Idol) for much, much less misconduct ...
          And for what to reward - for June 22, 1941? (the chief of the General Staff directly supervises the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff and the General Staff of the General Staff, organizes the activities of district / front headquarters, communications departments, and is still involved in a bunch of tasks in 10 small print). For the mob reserves that the Nazis inherited? For the organization of strategic defense, which resulted in the fall of the 41st Nazis occupied half of the European part of the USSR, stood near Moscow and surrounded Leningrad? For the heroic ignorance of Sychevka and the failure of not only one but two “Rzhev operations”? For adhering to the organization of the Stalingrad operation? There is no need to talk about Moscow and Leningrad, there Zhukovsky merits are very, very "ambiguous" ...
          1. ccsr April 15 2020 11: 53 New
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            Quote: AAK
            I read quite a lot, starting from THREE varying degrees of complementarity and reliability of the editions of the memoir of the marshal of victory (written, except for the chapters about youth and the civil war, in the style of the journal "Agitator's Notebook"),

            Do not find fault with the texts of the memoirs - you should know that in addition to agreement in the Central Committee, the Chief Military Censor also had to check them and give an opinion whether or not to publish it. So Zhukov was simply obliged to “comb” them, otherwise all the work would have received a signature stamp for official use, and was stored in the libraries of the Moscow Region. Such were the orders then, and you should know this no worse than me.
            Quote: AAK
            As for the text of Zhukovsky certification, then in it its lack of culture, lack of education,

            There was such a great politician in the USSR, member of the Politburo V.V. Grishin, so he stood higher in our hierarchy than Zhukov, and behind him only had a steam locomotive school. So this is not a criterion for Zhukov, especially since he had a great military practice in various positions.

            Quote: AAK
            And for what to reward - for June 22, 1941? (the chief of the General Staff directly supervises the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff and the General Staff of the General Staff, organizes the activities of district / front headquarters, communications departments, and is still involved in a bunch of tasks in 10 small print).

            Actually, it was not Zhukov who had to be punished, but the one who moved him on posts on the eve of the war. The fact that Zhukov was not the best candidate for the post of NGSH, I completely agree, and his fault is that he decided from career reasons to agree to the proposed position, but he could refuse. But apparently he did not find the courage to abandon such prospects, and agreed, which later led to grave consequences.
            Quote: AAK
            For the mob reserves that the Nazis inherited?

            This is the fault of the district command - do not attribute it to Zhukov.
            Quote: AAK
            For the organization of strategic defense, which resulted in the fall of the 41st Nazis occupied half of the European part of the USSR, stood near Moscow and surrounded Leningrad? For the heroic ignorance of Sychevka and the failure of not only one but two “Rzhev operations”? For adhering to the organization of the Stalingrad operation? There is no need to talk about Moscow and Leningrad, there Zhukovsky merits are very, very "ambiguous" ...

            Are you sure that everything attributed to Zhukov is absolutely reliable information? I think that you are aware of how many envious people there are of famous people, although I have already expressed my opinion that the output of his memoirs was an attempt to whitewash myself in front of history. That is why there were some things that were subsequently refuted by other participants in those events. But I think it is reprehensible to hang all dogs on Zhukov - that’s not the way to evaluate the Red Army and its actions during the war years.
            1. AAK
              AAK April 15 2020 16: 24 New
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              A colleague, the main meaning of what I wrote is that you don’t need to sculpt from Zhukov the icon of the main and almost the only creator of the Victory of our country over fascism (which has become almost the fetish of the current agitprop) and smear his historical portrait with gold leaf of some infallibility ... Alas, but St. George of him no ...
              1. ccsr April 15 2020 17: 58 New
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                Quote: AAK
                Colleague, the main meaning of what I wrote is that you don’t need to sculpt from Zhukov an icon of the main and almost the only creator of the Victory of our country over fascism

                With this I completely agree.
                Quote: AAK
                Alas, St. George of him no ...

                As well as from any historical figure over the past three hundred years of our history, except for A.V. Suvorov and F.F. Ushakov.
            2. Pilat2009 April 15 2020 21: 53 New
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              Quote: ccsr
              Lenin of the Politburo V.V. Grishin, so he stood higher in our hierarchy than Zhukov, and behind him had only a steam locomotive school

              You do not confuse the party worker and the military a little. What kind of education did Mikoyan or Kaganovich have, for example?
              1. ccsr April 16 2020 12: 20 New
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                Quote: Pilat2009
                You do not confuse a party worker and a military man a little.

                Here we are talking about the heights of the career growth of a statesman (official) and the dependence of this growth on the education received, because Zhukov was allegedly charged with insufficient education. So, life convincingly showed that even now the president is not a titular academician, but a graduate of the KGB high school, and even with not very long work experience in this structure, from where he left the rank of lieutenant colonel and did not earn a pension. What did you expect from the Soviet nominees then?
                Quote: Pilat2009
                What kind of education did Mikoyan or Kaganovich have for example?

                At a certain stage of the career ladder, primary education becomes secondary - athletes and artists in the Duma are able to "understand" the intricacies of state laws and acts better than those who have been borrowing this all their life in government agencies. It’s a paradox, but we have been living with it for many years.
  • boris epstein April 15 2020 10: 06 New
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    Zhukov tried to abandon the post of chief of the General Staff, arguing that he was not a staff officer, but a soldier. The situation in the Red Army with communications (and not only) developed long before Zhukov and was reflected in 1940 (before Zhukov was appointed chief of the General Staff) in " The act of transferring the Red Army from the People’s Commissar Voroshilov to the drug addict Tymoshenko. "These problems have accumulated over the years (claims against the previous chief of the General Staff Shaposhnikov) and have been aggravated with the return of the West Ukrainian and West Belorussian lands. , the same connection mainly via air lines, a small percentage of the radio communications of troops and the distrust of commanders in radio communications ... Before the war, Zhukov was the chief of the General Staff for 5 and a half months. For such a period, it’s impossible to put things in order even in a division or corps, especially.
    1. ccsr April 15 2020 12: 05 New
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      Quote: boris epstein
      Zhukov tried to abandon the post of chief of the General Staff, arguing that he was not a staff officer, but a combatant.

      And what is his personal report about it? Can you provide this document or a link to it?
      Quote: boris epstein
      The situation in the Red Army with communications (and not only) developed long before Zhukov and was reflected in 1940

      I completely agree with this - Zhukov is in vain accused of this, because he no longer had time to change anything.
      Quote: boris epstein
      For such a period, it is unrealistic to restore order even in a division or corps, and even more so on a national scale.

      This is known to those who have served for more than one year, and some wretched historians will never understand this, and that’s what they’ve blamed on Zhukov for which he didn’t even have anything to do.
      With the same mechanized corps, for example, the idea of ​​creating and equipping them did not lie on the General Staff, but on the GABTU KA, which at one time was guided by the theory of motor-vehicle conduits, and to which Zhukov had no relation due to his position in the thirties.
      1. boris epstein April 15 2020 17: 04 New
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        "And what is his personal report about this? Can you provide this document or a link to it?"
        GK Zhukov, “Memoirs and Reflections,” Volume One, Eighth Edition, p. 242.
        “The day after the analysis of the game, I was called to I V Stalin. After greeting, I V Stalin said:“ The Politburo decided to relieve Meretskov from the post of chief of the General Staff and appoint you in his place. I was waiting for everything, but not such a decision and not knowing what to answer, he was silent. Then he said: "I never worked at headquarters. I was always in the ranks. I cannot be the Chief of the General Staff." The Politburo has decided to appoint you, "Stalin said, emphasizing the word" decided ". End of quote.
        1. ccsr April 15 2020 18: 02 New
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          Quote: boris epstein
          "And what is his personal report about this? Can you provide this document or a link to it?"
          GK Zhukov, “Memoirs and Reflections,” Volume One, Eighth Edition, p. 242.

          This is just a text from memoirs, and I would like to see his report, i.e. as military people do in such situations if they refuse the proposed appointment with justification of the reasons for the refusal.
          1. boris epstein April 16 2020 11: 37 New
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            I also want a lot of things, for example, evidence on your part that there is no such report in the Central Archive of the SOVIET Army. The lack of evidence automatically confirms the correctness of Zhukov. The war is on the nose, there is a decision of the Politburo, what other reports? By the way, I believe Zhukov. When Stalin got excited about leaving Kiev (we are all human beings, it happens to everyone) Zhukov resigned, designed and implemented the Yelny operation. The first four guard divisions in the Red Army appeared precisely on the basis of the results of this operation.
            1. ccsr April 16 2020 12: 26 New
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              Quote: boris epstein
              I also want a lot of things, for example, evidence on your part that there is no such report in the Central Archive of the SOVIET Army.

              You threw this fried fact out of a memoir, and you demand proof of the existence of a report from me. It’s not funny for yourself?
              Quote: boris epstein
              The lack of evidence automatically confirms the correctness of the Beetles.

              Not a damn thing - if there was a report, Zhukov would have stated so explicitly in his memoirs and would have found him in the GUK, for he would have been filed in a personal file if the appointment had not been made.
              Quote: boris epstein
              By the way, I believe Zhukov.

              And I believe in documents, and not in someone’s memories - the memory of people fails, but the paper outlives everyone.
              1. boris epstein April 17 2020 15: 10 New
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                The downside is not proof of the truth, but proof of the absence of arguments. What report? To whom and where, if it is a decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee? The decision (party order) is not to Army General Zhukov, but to Communist Zhukov. Against the decision of the Politburo, Stalin is also powerless. The Politburo, by its decision, managed to overturn the draft Constitution of Stalin in 1936 and Stalin could not do anything. To go against the decision of the Politburo, you need to lay your party card on the table. Yes, it’s really funny from you. You do not see the difference between the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.).
              2. ccsr April 17 2020 17: 28 New
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                Quote: boris epstein
                What report? To whom and where, if it is a decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee?

                Do not fool people with their heads - in the army, any soldier has the right to file a report if he does not agree to be promoted to a higher position. When demoting his opinion, this is not taken into account, and even then he can ask a question at the inspection inspection if he does not agree with the decision made.
                Quote: boris epstein
                The decision (party order) is not to Army General Zhukov, but to Communist Zhukov. Against the decision of the Politburo, Stalin is powerless

                And he, as a communist, before the decision came out, could explain from the party positions his unpreparedness to take such a position - no one forbade him.
                Quote: boris epstein
                You do not see the difference between the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.).

                You don’t know anything about how in the army they abandon their posts and resign if they do not agree with the party’s policies - study the careers of Snetkov and Vorobyov for a start.
  • Albert1988 April 15 2020 20: 21 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
    And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
    You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

    It depends on which version - in one of the first - it says to itself, just like the fact that the development of walkie-talkies, which were already sorely lacking, was often ignored by the command of the units where these radios were sent.
  • ccsr April 16 2020 12: 38 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

    What kind of improvement in communication in the troops can be discussed if the most advanced in the air force equipment had it very badly. What then could Zhukov do five months before the start of the war, I just can’t imagine if this was the case:
    “Starting with the 51st aircraft of the 6th series, every third MiG-3 fighter was produced with the RSI-4 radio transmitter [3].
    RSI-3 or RSI-4 receivers were equipped with all serial MiGs. However, the communication quality on many machines was unimportant: due to poor shielding of the engine ignition system and inaccurate metallization of the aircraft the pilot’s headphones created a constant tiring noise through which it was almost impossible to hear the radio message. It came to the point that many pilots simply cut off the headset cords so that they would not interfere with turning their heads. The poor quality of communications negatively affected the losses of Soviet fighters in the initial period of the war."
  • Krasnoyarsk April 14 2020 09: 55 New
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    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Octopus
    But this?
    Comrade Zhukov, when he was the commander of the group of Soviet occupation forces in Germany, committed acts that dishonored the high rank of member of the CPSU (b)

    And this is just a worthless, false accusation of the long-disappeared and self-decreasing lie of just a public organization.

    Unfortunately this is not a lie. It is a fact. And there was a court of officer honor that was attended, I will not list, by front-line generals and Stalin.
  • user April 15 2020 08: 20 New
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    but, in general, he is the true Marshal of Victory


    I’m even wondering from what time he began to be called the Marshal of Victory. With a large number of live war veterans, he was not exactly called that. Well, now you can.
  • carstorm 11 April 14 2020 07: 35 New
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    it makes no sense to rummage through all this. Zhukov is a man of war. in peacetime, such people are lost. they don’t understand him. they are not flexible and this interferes with all. and such will always be merged. under any pretext. so it has been with all people like him at all times. they set him a task, he will fulfill it. and this is his strength. not be afraid to take responsibility and give results
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 07: 38 New
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      Quote: carstorm 11
      Zhukov is a man of war.

      With this approach, one should take and parse his operations from Mongolia to Berlin. Who could do that? Really liberals and revisionist researchers must harness again?
      1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 08: 29 New
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        it is not necessary. all this has long been disassembled and studied. if you studied at a military university you would know that. Everyone must do their job . Well, if it’s interesting to some deeply civilians, they can easily find any information. the only bad thing is that they perceive it from their bell tower and really do not understand a lot of everything.
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 39 New
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          Quote: carstorm 11
          it is not necessary. all this has long been disassembled and studied. if you studied at a military university you would know that. to

          I did not study at a military university, but they told the opposite.

          Do not remember the author and the name of the book?
          Quote: carstorm 11
          can easily find any information

          Which will for the most part consist of Soviet, pro-Soviet and anti-Soviet lies, or even altistories. In particular, one regular author of the "history" section specializes in the latter, guess who.
          1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 08: 55 New
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            I don’t remember now) but believe me, tactics have been studied up and down. this is not what you thought about. The strategy and tactics of its analysis are many where. you can read the Germans Tipo Guderian and his Memoirs of a Soldier. if you want to find a lot of things.
            1. Octopus April 14 2020 09: 47 New
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              Germans like Guderian any number. By the way, another storyteller. The question was
              a) about the Soviet side.
              b) not stories to the Oktyabrs, but a full-fledged analysis of operations for adults. Procurement, cards, etc.
              1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 10: 34 New
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                G.K. Zhukov “Memoirs and Reflections”, I see no reason not to trust his memories. Konev. Rokosovsky. Fishing in the end. in any family kept a huge number of memoirs. I mean the military family. my father wrote notes on them, and then it came in handy. Military Publishing House issued. I didn’t meet them in stores. only in libraries. you can search there.
                1. Alexey RA April 14 2020 11: 10 New
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                  Quote: carstorm 11
                  G.K. Zhukov “Memoirs and Reflections”, I see no reason not to trust his memories.

                  Which edition? And then, remember me, the text "Memories ..." hesitated along with the party line.
                  1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 11: 45 New
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                    need to study the issue. I really didn’t even think about it. thanks for the question.
                  2. Octopus April 14 2020 12: 08 New
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                    It is strange if you are seriously interested in the topic.

                    There is an opinion that one of the main crimes of Comrade personally Episheva before the USSR - the destruction of any intelligible study of the experience of the Second World War / WWII, even at the level of specialists. That is, GlavPUR lied not only to others, but also to itself. Naturally, this could not end in anything good.
                  3. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 12: 40 New
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                    I graduated from college a long time ago. then was interested. Now I remember something, something not. but the basics are driven into the subcortex. I just know what the priority of tasks and the priority of goals are. and I know how difficult it is to work in the system, it’s important, not important.
                    A priority. The Priority Principle is one of the most important principles in the thinking of soldiers and officers in military affairs. If you simply state it, then the principle of priority means compliance with the principle of "important-not important" in various aspects of military affairs and specifically in each situation in terms of importance and degree of relevance for each moment in time. If the Spirit of a man is the center of the energy-informational component of a person, then his attention is a spotlight, a ray of this Spirit. A feature of human attention is that the attention and consciousness of a person is structured in such a way that it is always necessary to separate what is more important and what is secondary, or not at all important and not relevant at a given time. This great feature of attention, a sense of Priority was possessed by all the great commanders, such as Suvorov A.V., Napoleon, Rokossovsky K.K., Zhukov G.K. and many, many other generals and commanders. A sense of Priority, the ability in one’s mind to decompose one’s affairs into more important matters or aspects of military affairs, and into less important ones, is a very important feature and a necessity for any military person.
                    This is the shortest summary of what I know about it. it is this knowledge that actually gives me the opportunity to understand who Zhukov is and what he was capable of. and not judge him for decisions not clear to everyone.
                  4. Octopus April 14 2020 14: 04 New
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                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    . If the Spirit of a man is the center of the energy-informational component of a person, then his attention is a spotlight, a ray of this Spirit.

                    Nevermind metaphors for Soviet officers. I did not expect this even from Comrade. Episheva.
                  5. Liam April 14 2020 14: 10 New
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                    Quote: Octopus

                    Nevermind metaphors for Soviet officers

                    It is necessary to carefully check the composition of the substances in the dry pack and first aid kit ....maybe we don’t know something
                  6. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 21: 54 New
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                    this is not entirely a metaphor) rather an attempt to explain certain things to people who do not understand them. the whole point is that the ability to concentrate on goals and objectives is not so simple. You can check it for yourself, for example, by solving such a problem as capturing altitude. while the height has a well-organized defense. but your task is not to destroy everyone on the mountain but to capture it. within a day. Let's say in the adjacent lane the offensive begins in the morning and this height gives a great advantage. your actions? You don’t have time to study and search for weak points. you don’t have time to concentrate any serious forces. there is no time to carry out artillery strikes to mix everything there. you just have to capture height. and here the will is needed. to make such decisions for which 99 percent of people are simply not created. and do not be surprised at some grandiloquent expressions) From simple to complex, then reduce all this complex to simple again (the principle of systemic thinking). Everything complicated is not needed, everything needed is simple. (Kalashnikov). all this in a simple life can come in handy if you learn to use it. And the Spirit of a man ... well, if you exclude this aspect from the equation in a military officer, then what remains with him then?) The profession of chicanery more than any other requires calling. This profession is difficult (physically, morally and psychologically), dangerous even in peacetime, requires high dedication, reaching self-forgetfulness. It is much more difficult to leave the ranks of the officer corps than to break with any other specialty. Officer service is associated with many hardships, inconveniences that are not experienced by representatives of other professions. The monetary remuneration for officer labor as a rule does not correspond to its high “cost”, which, in fairness, this labor should be evaluated. A high degree of responsibility, limited civil and personal rights and freedoms weigh heavily on the officer’s soul and require the highest level of consciousness and self-restraint. Not every person is able to carry such a “cross” through life. Everything said above determines the high significance of calling in the officer profession, because, according to M. Menshikov, “..- in military affairs this crazy condition has been elevated to the law and it has been said for 100 years back)
                2. hjvtp1966 8 June 2020 22: 10 New
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                  To go nuts .... how beautifully said! The current surrenders, to distinguish the important from the unimportant, is the main property of the mind in general. I think that the preservation of this ability in a critical environment is the property that distinguishes people who can become military leaders. In peacetime, such people are dangerous, they seek to turn critical circumstances into circumstances in which they have superiority.
              2. Alexey RA April 14 2020 15: 26 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                There is an opinion that one of the main crimes of Comrade personally Episheva before the USSR - the destruction of any intelligible study of the experience of the Second World War / WWII, even at the level of specialists.

                With the simultaneous "bronzirovanie" history of the Second World War. The official story has ceased to be adjusted based on documents found in archives. Which ultimately led to a logical ending - the appearance of revisionists. Which, refuting the easily refuted provisions of official history, called into question the history of the Second World War as a whole, including even true events.
                However, one can understand Epishev — one must have considerable courage to permit the study of the same Prokhorovka. After all, at the same time you have to question the actions of the whole chief marshal of the armored forces.
              3. Liam April 14 2020 15: 28 New
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                Quote: Alexey RA
                you can understand Epishev

                And when did the glossy version of Prokhorovka appear? Is it not under Epishev?
              4. Octopus April 14 2020 15: 36 New
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                Quote: Alexey RA
                The official history is no longer subject to adjustments based on documents found in archives. Which ultimately led to a logical ending - the appearance of revisionists.

                Something not far from sedition, you know. So you get to the issue of archives, and even to the present military historical policy. Which will end sooner or later guess what.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                After all, at the same time you have to question the actions of the whole chief marshal of the armored forces.

                God once again helped the Soviet government. If the degradation of the Red Army in this sense took many years, the former Allies lost all remnants of sanity almost instantly. Until Vietnam, they stroked their atomic bomb like the Gollum Ring.

                Too easy victories have their drawbacks.
        2. boris epstein April 15 2020 10: 10 New
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          Not at the initiative or fault of Zhukov. But there is the 10th edition closest to the author.
        3. Lekz April 16 2020 02: 09 New
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          Well, hesitated. What about the late Zhukov?
  • user April 15 2020 18: 17 New
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    Who could do that? Really liberals and revisionist researchers have to harness again?


    Especially the beginning of the Second World War, because he was the chief of the General Staff.

    Marshal Vasilevsky: one cannot explain the unsuccessful start of the war by the mistakes of Stalin. He, it seems, also seemed to be taking part in these events. And orders and titles are not deprived, he said this, when the word liberals in our country, few people understood at all. As for the revisionist researchers, they are in each subsequent edition of Memoirs and Reflections, when no one heard of the revisionist researchers (at least in our country). Yes, then the WWII participants would have definitely noticed and corrected them.
  • Grandfather Crimea April 14 2020 08: 58 New
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    Each person is a peculiarity of character traits, moral values ​​(spiritual), as well as skills (professional) - this is roughly speaking about a person, in general. Plus, his activity is manifested by deeds, actions, statements ... In any person there are different sides of the manifestation of all of the above - for some people can be Kashchei Immortal, and for others - Gorynych.)))) Merits of Zhukov as a commander is what this man must be respected, all the other "weaknesses" of the mere mortal fade before his merits by the military. And there on the TOP, the Lord himself will decide - deserved, guilty .... Do not judge (especially when we were not in the project yet) and we discuss you will not))))
  • Cyrus April 15 2020 09: 29 New
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    And of course, no evidence))
  • IQ12NHJ21az April 15 2020 09: 47 New
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    Where did the "woods" come from?
  • Den717 April 15 2020 10: 43 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    But this?

    You probably forgot that you live because Zhukov defended Moscow and Leningrad and took Berlin. Say - not Zhukov, but the soldiers won the war? Then ask yourself the question, why in all decisive directions did they put it, and not someone else? Obviously, your nickname matches you perfectly. The ridge is not visible in you.
    1. Octopus April 15 2020 12: 33 New
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      Quote: Den717
      You probably forgot that you live because

      You can’t list everything, thanks to which I live. My life is an accident. Like yours, excuse me for switching to personalities.
      Quote: Den717
      Say - not Zhukov, but the soldiers won the war?

      Of course not. The war was won by Stalin. This is not ironic.
      1. Den717 April 15 2020 13: 04 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Stalin won the war

        Stalin in 1941 did not command the Reserve Front. Anyway. To argue about this is an empty matter. An alternative story is almost a religion, there is no truth and no truth, only faith. There common sense does not play a role. And theological reasoning is boring to me ... hi
        1. Octopus April 15 2020 13: 34 New
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          WWII won the Reserve Front? Well, OK, as you say.
          1. Den717 April 15 2020 13: 35 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            WWII won the Reserve Front?

            He didn’t let the German go to Moscow. And that’s a lot, almost everything.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Siti58 April 15 2020 13: 50 New
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    Octopus, where did the firewood come from? The author in the studio!
    1. Octopus April 15 2020 13: 56 New
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      Quote: Siti58
      Author in the studio!

      Native Soviet power.
      Quote: Siti58
      where are the firewood from?

      Does the right mouse button work for you? Or the context menu "find in google" on the touchscreen?
  • Svarog April 14 2020 07: 44 New
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    Quote: DMB 75
    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    Entirely and completely agree.

    The only thing you can blame Zhukov, only in support of Khrushchev ..
    1. wolf20032 April 14 2020 09: 14 New
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      And with comrade Stalin, to complete surrender, he loved Stalin. And under Brezhnev, he loved Brezhnev. He loved power, to complete shamelessness. And licked her all the intimate places.
  • Alekseev April 14 2020 07: 48 New
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    Quote: DMB 75
    Entirely and completely agree.

    That's right!
    Zhukov is the great son of Russia, inseparable from her, although not ideal. Rough sometimes with lower-ranking bosses, who did not receive a fundamental general education, but an unsurpassed practice of war.
    Some civilians do not write out of great mind here that, he said, he was a bad chief of the General Staff, that, they say, captured many trophies in Germany, drove the trains.
    But at the same time they forget (or maybe they don’t even know at all) that G.K. Zhukov was only 4 months old, and what he did there wrong, for the liberal wise men a dark forest in general. The liberalists are not asking the question, but where did Zhukov unload trains from Germany?
    At the breech cottage, it turns out. Looks like the cottage was great. wink Yes, and in the well-known lists of "junk", it was like the current official of a district scale. Moreover, a lot was bought for personal funds. Something, of course, dragged and toadies. The fate of the main whistleblower Zhukov, comrade, is also interesting. Abakumova V.S., received for everything from Comrade Stalin, and Khrushchev too. This suggests that the leader knew about the dirty character of "this fuss" and its correspondence to reality. Yes, and many other similar cases.
    Zhukov helped out, won victories. The troops under his command in comparable conditions achieved success with less casualties than others. Zhukov achieved the rehabilitation of prisoners, many of whom were not to blame for their misfortune and shame. He, unlike Stalin, Khrushchev, Molotov, etc., was a soldier and personally heard the whistle of bullets, and the burst of shells, and the sound of sabers.
    Yes, and now dear to many near-minded citizens, the genacy of Comrade. Beria, from the mere mention of which some were immediately described, it was he who grabbed the white pens.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 17 New
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      Quote: Alekseev
      it’s not from a great mind that they say that he was a bad chief of the General Staff

      ))
      Only civilians? Only here?
      Quote: Alekseev
      captured many trophies in Germany, drove trains.

      This is not us, this is our own Party.
      Quote: Alekseev
      they forget (or maybe they don’t know at all) that the chief of the General Staff G.K. Zhukov was only 4 months old,

      We are in the know. But you, apparently, do not distinguish between the statements "was the chief of the General Staff at the time" and "is responsible for." No, for summer events he bears responsibility to a relatively small extent.
      Quote: Alekseev
      The liberalists are not asking the question, but where did Zhukov unload trains from Germany?

      Being a liberalist, I will not at all undertake to defend the position of the party and Comrade. Zhdanova on any subject. The question was - is this a blackening?
      Quote: Alekseev
      This suggests that the leader knew about the dirty character of "this fuss" and its correspondence to reality.

      How interesting. He knew, but watched as the Marshal of Victory wallow in Mr. Timid, apparently, the man was Comrade Stalin, did not intervene.
      Quote: Alekseev
      Yes, and now dear to many near-minded citizens, the genacy of Comrade. Beria, from the mere mention of which some were immediately described, it was he who grabbed the white pens.

      Eco throws you. And what is Beria not good for you? Or did he not marshal your Victory?
      1. Snail N9 April 14 2020 09: 45 New
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        I have read quite a lot of different types of literature about the Second World War. They did not like Zhukov at the front and this is a fact. Moreover, both commanders and soldiers did not like. The commanders were warped by his boorish, uncompromising manner of dealing with subordinates. The soldiers did not like the fact that the arrival of Zhukov meant an offensive or counterattack and was always in a hurry, without preparation and directly in the forehead. Here, one can say Zhukov’s “standard” assessment, by the “Western” historian:
        “Zhukov was a typical, Russian, communist commander of that time — cruel, indifferent to human destinies, sparing no strength, both his own and others, to complete the task. The task must be completed at all costs! —This is his motto. Without flexibility mind, just like a Russian rifle with a bayonet, he was always a cavalryman in his soul and until the end of the war he considered a dashing “cavalry” strike an offensive the guarantee of victory in any conditions. He always believed that the main thing in a war was to strike first or not to allow the enemy to gain a foothold, busy to have prepared positions for them as an adversary and therefore always counterattacked, attacked, drove their troops at a frantic pace, regardless of losses, to their complete exhaustion. Speaking from the point of view of military art, this is generally correct and there is a justifiable reason, however, Zhukov did not take into account the fact that he commands troops poorly equipped with equipment, fire support equipment, not provided with enough transport or ammunition, that is, without sufficient transport and fire mobility, almost uncovered from the air and which act against a highly mobile, technically superior equipped enemy who has extensive experience and is able to quickly maneuver resources. Counterattacks against such an adversary by the methods of the “civil war”, in a “dashing formation”, without careful reconnaissance, without sufficient fire escort and reserves, simply led to terrible losses, depleted resources and, as a result, brought more damage to the first and second stages of the war than benefits ..... The situation began to change in this regard, only at the third stage, at the end of the war, when the Red Army received a huge amount of Lend-Lease weapons and weapons with the Soviet industry evacuated into a military fashion Russia .... Only then did the tactics of Zhukov's "furious" offensives begin to bring positive results .... Zhukov was not a talented commander, from being a servant to the core of his bones, he did not lead much using knowledge, flexibility of mind and authority (such as , Napoleon did the same), and how much he pressed, he squeezed what he needed using the repressive mechanism available to him .... direct and uncompromising, fairly honest and desperately brave, he was the embodiment of the Russian spirit - unbending, cruel, contemptuous of deprivation and death .. ..which is so he liked the Kremlin tyrant, who always demanded that all obey obedience and fulfill his tasks at all costs and who chose him-Zhukov, for the sake of his natural, moral qualities, as a guide and embodiment of his ideas and decisions .... Zhukov was not a military genius but he knew how to cope with the Red Army, its commanders ... without bothering with applying and honing various types of martial arts, he chose for himself one of his types - "strike-attack" and, in the end, brought it up, polished it to perfection .... "
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 09: 56 New
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          Excuse me, where did the quote come from? Google is not looking.
        2. Fishery April 14 2020 10: 32 New
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          I agree, but the soldiers loved Rokosovsky, different tactics, different attitudes towards people.
          1. Alexey RA April 14 2020 11: 14 New
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            Quote: Tonya
            I agree, but the soldiers loved Rokosovsky, different tactics, different attitudes towards people.

            This is yes ... citizen Rokossovsky was a famous humanist.
            Commander of the Don Front Lieutenant General K.K. Rokossovsky, according to the report of the Special Front Division to the Office of the Special Departments of the NKVD of the USSR of October 30, 1942, proposed using detachments to influence the infantry of the unsuccessfully advancing 66th Army. Rokossovsky believed that the detachment detachments were to follow the infantry units and force the fighters to make the attack.
        3. Andrey VOV April 14 2020 10: 42 New
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          Keyword Literature ...
        4. ccsr April 14 2020 12: 27 New
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          Quote: Snail N9
          They did not like Zhukov at the front and this is a fact. Moreover, both commanders and soldiers did not like. The commanders were warped by his boorish, uncompromising manner of dealing with subordinates.

          I, too, may not like his manner of communication, but what would you personally say without a mate to your subordinates in such a situation if you knew that more than two companies of tankers were blamed because of them
      2. Cer59 April 19 2020 20: 11 New
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        WHAT TO SAY IN DEFENSE OF A DOMESTIC BEFORE READING:
        B. V L A D I M I R O V

        D U T A I S L A B A
        Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
        "Memoirs and Reflections."
        1. Octopus April 20 2020 00: 08 New
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          Are you me Who is your geek out of them?
  • Aleksandr72 April 14 2020 09: 57 New
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    "Why they hate Marshal Zhukov" - because it was he who hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on June 24, 1945. This is the highest assessment of his merits in the Great Patriotic War - the right to host the Parade of Winners to those who do not deserve this, will never be trusted.
    I don’t see the point in writing more about Zhukov. Everyone will find in his biography what he is looking for: someone will confirm that he (Zhukov) was one of the greatest Soviet commanders who deservedly became the Marshal of Victory, and someone - the opportunity to pour an extra bucket of dirt or slop on Zhukov. Especially if this someone hates the Soviet Union and all its achievements, the one for whom Victory is 100500 million lives lost in vain, who believes that it would be better to pass Leningrad, that the USSR would be better to lose - and we would now drink real Bavarian beer. What about them - poor to talk.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 10: 03 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr72
      What about them - poor to talk.

      Where are we, Russophobia. But here I am interested.
      Quote: Aleksandr72
      it's 100500 million lost lives in vain

      Among the patriots of the USSR there are people who relate to the destruction of millions of Russians, mostly civilians, without humor?
    2. zenion April 15 2020 17: 25 New
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      Of course, you don’t know that everyone leaned on Stalin, that he would take a parade, to which Stalin replied - I’m already old to ride a horse. Here I had a deputy, let him accept. That is, Stalin had a senior, where they would send.
  • il-z April 14 2020 23: 30 New
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    Good day to all!
    I must admit right away that my comment is not a special answer to your comment, just an attempt not to fall into the basement of comments. Without detracting from the merits of GK Zhukov, I have the audacity to ask everyone "grazing" on this site not to stoop to such a simplification, not to agree that, like the hero of the modern television series, he (like many who have left) was like a two-dimensional creature, was neither a white, neither black, nor even a black and white strip of paper (even with the beautiful stamp "MARCHAL VICTORY").
    To paraphrase one hero of the foreign cartoon "giants ... like onions. Multilayer. Onions are multilayered, I, too, layer by layer," so we all are "multilayered", in any case, "I think so", although I admit the possibility of simpler ones configurations "that donkeys are simpler. Our fears are written on our foreheads."
    Not everything in life was simple and unambiguous, is and will be. Finally, excerpts from the letter of one little-known now laureate of state prizes of the USSR and the Russian Federation:
    Dear Alexander Sergeevich!
    Ah, how sorry I am to disappoint you in your old age, but you can’t get away from life.
    I understand both you and all our other generals who boast, for no one will praise anymore. Not at all ... And you, and the commanders who led you, were very bad warriors, and you couldn’t be different, because you have been and have been fighting in the most mediocre army since the creation of the human race. That army, like the current one, emerged from the most despicable society — it no longer needs proof. Now everyone already knows, except for you, of course, that our losses in the war amount to 40-50 million, and I kept repeating to you this time too: not you, not me and not the army defeated fascism, but our long-suffering people ... Only criminals could litter their people like that! Only enemies could lead the army like that during the fighting, only scum could keep the army in fear and suspicion - all special divisions, smershas, ​​1st, 2nd ... eleventh divisions, headquarters resembling gypsy camps. And the penalty companies, and detachments? And order 227? Yes, for one for this it was necessary to disperse the entire Kremlin camarilla after the war. Fearing this, fearing a clear-sighted army, your brethren, urged by the Supreme, began reprisal against the people. We saved the skins of kam - no longer needed.
    ... Do not touch and burn our wounds, General! And you can’t hide the truth, just as you can’t hide what’s going on in a valiant owl. army. But after all they tried and are trying to hide with all their might and such guardians of "purity of uniform" as you, with all the remaining forces help to commit a crime. One more. And is it one? In peace days, our army suffers more losses than Count Chernyshev, who led the Russian army in a brilliant campaign against Paris. During the Seven Years' War, they were then equal to six percent. Well, given that overwhelming disgusting free medicine, poor, often unhealthy food, two hundred thousand children a year die, so to speak of soldiers who always under the Soviet regime were like straw, suitable only to rot it and throw it in a fire. I feel that you read and read little, so there was such a prince Raevsky who brought his sons to Borodino in a redoubt (the youngest was 14 years old!), So I am sure that Prince Raevsky, and Bagration, and Miloradovich, and even dashing the Cossack Platov would not have gone down to the reproach of a soldier with street abuse, and you ?!
    Oh-ho-ho-oooh, yet from rags to riches - nothing ever worked out. I’ll go to church on Victory Day to pray for those killed and ruined during the war. And I advise you to do the same - I assure you, you will be angry, hurry up, and you will not want to count the "vain offenses" inflicted on our generals. There are no such words, there is no such prayer of God that would grant them forgiveness for vile days (at least Brezhnev’s), but if all of you, having removed your uniforms without strumming medals, went out into the Russian field surrounded by empty villages (one of the reasons devastation - war), if you kneel down and lower your gray heads, ask for forgiveness from the Almighty, maybe he will hear you. This is the only way to save your general’s soul, otherwise you will stink in the world and die with dark anger in your heart. Teach you God!
    I bow.
  • Revolver April 15 2020 06: 36 New
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    Quote: DMB 75
    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    Entirely and completely agree.

    Saying an unadorned truth is not a blackening.
  • Paul Siebert April 15 2020 12: 42 New
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    Personally, I am convinced that Zhukov is a great commander and the Marshal of Victory is not necessary. For me this is an undeniable fact.
    In my family, his book, Memoirs and Thoughts, is a desktop book.
    Let banderlog in Independent rage.
    People’s memory cannot be undone by stupid libels and utterances.
    We will return to Ukraine.
    And we will restore its monuments and plaques.
  • Pilat2009 April 15 2020 19: 05 New
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    Quote: DMB 75
    Entirely and completely agree.

    What about the monument to Zhukov in Moscow? Why did they remove the old one and put up a new one. And they attached a sign "from Sobyanin, Putin and K."
  • Ru_Na April 14 2020 05: 13 New
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    Zhukov will forever remain the Marshal of Victory, the Great Leader and People’s Hero !!! The liberda screeching to the west comes and goes, but the Hero of Zhukov, the Marshal of Victory, remains !!!
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka April 14 2020 05: 13 New
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    In the Urals, it is customary to be proud that K.G. Zhukov commanded our military district after the war.
    From the lips of veterans, about a marshal - a victory, I heard only one assessment - “cool marshal, was cool” !!!
    1. Catfish April 14 2020 05: 55 New
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      Hello, Vlad!
      But Rokossovsky was said to be smart. smile request
      1. Catfish April 14 2020 06: 58 New
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        Less to whom? Rokossovsky? Eagles ... laughing
        1. Lipchanin April 14 2020 07: 09 New
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          Quote: Sea Cat
          Less to whom? Rokossovsky?

          I went across the "current"
          At VO, this is not welcomed now.
          "Dissent" is burned by the "hot iron" in the form of minusoffs
          Vivid example, comment below and soon my comment laughing
    2. Pessimist22 April 14 2020 06: 09 New
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      I read a lot about WWII and front-line literature, read memoirs of both Soviet and German authors, it is very interesting what nicknames they gave to ours, including the generals, the Rokossovsky general dagger, Zhukov the general meat.
      1. Moskovit April 14 2020 09: 15 New
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        Who gave such nicknames? No matter how much I read the memoirs of the German military commanders, they did not mention the names of Soviet commanders at all. They were just "Russians."
        I remember Konev was proud that Manstein in his memoirs called the actions of his troops "energetic and skillful." Without any mention of a surname. So do not tell stories about knives and meat.
        1. Krasnoyarsk April 14 2020 11: 13 New
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          Quote: Moskovit
          Who gave such nicknames? No matter how much I read the memoirs of the German military commanders, they did not mention the names of Soviet commanders at all. They were just "Russians."

          And here is the chief of the German General Staff of the ground forces in his diary from 1.10.1941. September 24.09.1942, 13 Field Marshal von Brauchitsch recalls his immediate superior, Commander-in-Chief of the German Ground Forces, 1 times, and Major General P.A., commander of the 11st Guards KK, recalls Belove - XNUMX times !.
          Here it is. Speaking of Zhukov-not once.
    3. Octopus April 14 2020 06: 35 New
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      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      cool marshal was cool

      For young people, it should be clarified that the word "cool" in Soviet times had a completely different meaning than now. The word "cool leader" was understood as an authoritarian leader, which could have been, but could not have been, a positive characteristic, even at that time.
      Examples: cool Chuykov
      The commander himself is the embodiment of energy. Before the start of the offensive, he rushes along the bridgehead in his all-terrain vehicle, and God forbid, if he notices the disorder: not to knit a careless person. Everyone is well aware of the exactingness, sometimes even the abrupt disposition of the commander. But behind the outward rudeness of V.I. Chuikov lies a love for a simple soldier, for his military craft. The General values ​​the reputation of the army, and his exactingness, ardor is due primarily to the desire to fulfill the task as best as possible

      Cool R.S. Zemlyachka
      comrade SAMOILOVA (Zemlyachka) - an extremely nervous and sick woman who denied any kind of belief system in her work and left the memory of “Arakcheev times” for almost all workers. Unnecessary nervousness, too high a tone in a conversation with almost all comrades, extreme demanding ... undeserved repressions against all who had at least a little courage to “dare to have one’s judgment” or simply “not like” ... SAMOILOVA in Crimea, literally all the workers trembled before her, not daring to disobey her at least the most stupid or erroneous orders.

      Nekrutoy Shaposhnikov
      It was my responsibility to systematically report (on the situation in Iran) to B. M. Shaposhnikov. Boris Mikhailovich was a charming person, and he treated young colonels like me with true fatherly warmth. If what turned out wrong with us, he did not scold, did not even raise his voice, but only asked with reproach:

      “What are you, darling?”

      From this question, we were ready to fall through the ground, we remembered our mistakes for a long time and never repeated them
      1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 08: 42 New
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        Do you know what Vasilevsky most noted in Zhukov? The fact that he never lost concentration. and the worse and more difficult it was, the more he was going to. This is power. Character. there are only a few such people in any generation. Until the soldiers, who are full of courage, fight passionately and enthusiastically, the commander is rarely given a reason to show tremendous willpower to achieve his goal. But as soon as difficulties arise, and this always happens when great results are at stake, when things don’t go by itself, like a well-oiled machine, now the machine itself begins to show resistance, and to overcome it, the commander will need tremendous willpower (Clausewitz Principles warfare ")
        if by simple he could not be cool. he had to be tough and quick to solve. for many simple people, it’s just not to understand what it is to make such decisions.
      2. Pane Kohanku April 14 2020 12: 21 New
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        Nekrutoy Shaposhnikov

        just read this quote yesterday. Shtemenko. drinks Which, according to Simonov, who was retelling Vasilevsky, himself was not opposed to meditating on the same Vasilevsky to Stalin. wink
        These are people of their time. Whatever they are, with their problem and cockroaches - without them we would not have won the war. Do not disturb their memory. They are truly heroes. And Georgy Konstantinovich is truly a symbol of Victory. soldier
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 14: 07 New
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          I did not understand your comment. I tried to explain that the antonym of the word “cool leader” in the speech of that time was “intelligent leader”. I do not consider the latter a negative characteristic, including for the general. So if you wanted to protect Shaposhnikov from me, then in vain.
          1. Pane Kohanku April 14 2020 14: 36 New
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            So if you wanted to protect Shaposhnikov from me, then in vain.

            I didn’t want to protect anyone. I think that Boris Mikhailovich does not need protection at all, and a blessed memory to him. hi What he himself could not do, then Vasilevsky did, brought up by him. soldier Just after your quote I remembered about Shtemenko ... I hope I did not hook you, and did not offend you. hi
            1. Octopus April 14 2020 15: 11 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              I hope I did not hook you, and did not offend you.

              Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))
              1. Pane Kohanku April 14 2020 17: 19 New
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                Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))

                it is a personal and subjective affair of everyone. To each his own! hi
  • Black_Vatnik April 14 2020 05: 19 New
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    I agree with the conclusions, but since you are undertaking a similar article, it would be nice to give key battles, numbers, etc. as an example.
    And it turns out that in the article "Zhukov - the Stalin Butcher" in your article there is only one answer "no - he is a hero." And what's the point of what is written?
    1. Catfish April 14 2020 05: 54 New
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      ... it would be nice to give an example of key battles, numbers, etc.

      And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first. "Brilliant" was a strategic operation, and how many lives of our soldiers it cost.
      1. Cartalon April 14 2020 06: 57 New
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        Yeah, and for some reason, lost people per thousand people of the initial composition, less than Konev.
      2. tatra April 14 2020 08: 46 New
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        And what were the losses of the Red Army in the Berlin operation? According to official figures, there are 80 thousand dead, and according to the "great commander" of journalist Minkin, 500 thousand dead soldiers and officers of the Red Army.
        1. Andrey VOV April 14 2020 10: 39 New
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          Less than 80 thousand .. and Minkin is a sick traitor
      3. Alexey RA April 14 2020 11: 22 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first.

        In fact, Comrade Zhukov climbed forward to cut off the regular German army from the city. And his actions turned out to be true - no more than one division forces withdrew to the city. And the bulk of the troops - 9th A and part of the 4th TA - remained in the Halb pot, from where it later began a breakthrough to the Wreath in the style of "dead bodies".
        1. Pane Kohanku April 14 2020 12: 29 New
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          And his actions turned out to be true - no more than one division forces withdrew to the city. And the bulk of the troops - 9th A and part of the 4th TA - remained in the Halb pot, from where it later began a breakthrough to the Wreath in the style of "dead bodies".

          absolutely right. It seems that anyone interested in history already knows about this fact.hi
          If the German units managed to retreat to Berlin, the battles there would be an order of magnitude harder and bloodier. soldier
          Swag left by the Germans in the Halb pot:

          and more:
      4. Pane Kohanku April 14 2020 12: 46 New
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        And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first.

        Konstantin, AlekseyRa gave a breakdown why there was an assault on the Zeelov Heights.
        In general, I recommend this book. It says about the losses. hi
  • Pessimist22 April 14 2020 05: 24 New
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    Well done, Zhukov, the enemy of the people, Beria was arrested, not scared.
    1. Catfish April 14 2020 05: 50 New
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      Khrushchev ordered the arrest of Beria; Zhukov only complied with the order. Yes, and it was tricky to “shiver” with the tank divisions introduced into the capital of Kantemirovskaya and Taman. laughing
      1. Olgovich April 14 2020 07: 23 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        Khrushchev ordered the arrest of Beria; Zhukov only complied with the order.

        Could not fulfill. and he wouldn’t have anything for it
        But where would Khrushchev end up?
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Yes, and it was tricky to “shiver” with the tank divisions introduced into the capital of Kantemirovskaya and Taman.

        The Yakirs, Uborevichs and Mukhukhs had dozens of divisions and where are they? request
        1. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 08: 46 New
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          most likely could not fail. just by virtue of character and ability to carry out orders without looking back.
          1. Olgovich April 14 2020 09: 46 New
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            Quote: carstorm 11
            most likely could not fail. just by virtue of character and ability to carry out orders without looking back.

            Zhukov, by virtue of his position, SUCH orders were not required to comply ...
    2. apro April 14 2020 06: 33 New
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      Quote: Pessimist22
      not scared

      LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ...
      1. Pessimist22 April 14 2020 06: 35 New
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        He was removed, and then shot that you reap what you sow.
        1. apro April 14 2020 07: 02 New
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          Quote: Pessimist22
          what are you sowing

          And what is interesting he sowed? Crushed the enemies of the USSR ... created a yaba ... forged VPK ...
        2. Lipchanin April 14 2020 07: 15 New
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          Quote: Pessimist22
          What goes around comes around

          Moreover, with the same wording, "an enemy of the people, a spy of several states"
          The template itself was invented, I myself experienced it
      2. Lipchanin April 14 2020 07: 14 New
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        Quote: apro
        LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ...

        Did he lead the country?
        A coup d'etat is kind of like a change of power
        And who else was shot from the “top”?
      3. Olgovich April 14 2020 07: 16 New
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        Quote: apro
        LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ..

        1. Learn the history of your country: who, whom, and when "turned" over?

        Beria never was not the head of the country

        2. Beria was shot by sentence Supreme Court of the USSRvalid to this day.
        1. apro April 14 2020 09: 13 New
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          Quote: Olgovich
          Learn the history of your country, finally:

          This can be addressed to you.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Beria was shot by the verdict of the Supreme Court of the USSR, valid to this day.

          Did you see the respected case of LPBeria? Read the recollections of the participants in the action? For me there are too many connections.
          Laws and decrees of the USSR bodies have selective circulation on the territory of Russia ...
          1. Olgovich April 14 2020 09: 54 New
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            Quote: apro
            This can be addressed to you.

            With a fright?
            I did not write about the nonexistent "coup d'etat".
            Quote: apro
            Did you see the respected case of LPBeria? Read the recollections of the participants in the action? For me there are too many connections.

            I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
            Quote: apro
            Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia .

            1. The verdict upheld in Russia.
            2. Again, you distort the name of the country RUSSIA.
            Well, what rudeness?
            1. apro April 14 2020 11: 29 New
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              Quote: Olgovich
              Well, what rudeness?

              You dear have your position. I have my own.
              Quote: Olgovich
              1. The verdict upheld in Russia.

              And some sentences were canceled. And this can be treated differently ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              what a fright?
              I did not write about the nonexistent "coup d'etat".

              Kantemirov’s division outside the planned streets of Moscow is always something ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              I read tearful penitential requests

              But after the army’s visit to the LPBeria’s mansion, no one saw him alive from people who knew him closely.
              1. Olgovich April 14 2020 12: 00 New
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                Quote: apro
                Quote: Olgovich
                Well, what rudeness?

                You dear have your position. I have my own.

                Inverted name "RUSSIA" You vainly try to insult the country, but humiliate yourself - in the eyes of those reading
                Quote: apro
                And some sentences were canceled. And this can be treated differently ...

                This is not canceled, treat as you like, but the fact is, as they say, "namorda" yes
                Quote: apro

                Kantemirov’s division outside the planned streets of Moscow is always something ...

                so where is the coup? Whom did they “turn over” there? Already .... Minister of the Interior?

                Then these "coups" were from the 1930s -hundreds- pre-ministerialChairman of the Council of People's Commissars, etc. Politburo and Central Committee, lol
                Quote: apro
                But after the army’s visit to the mansion of LPBeria, he was alive from people who knew him closely not seen no one. and was allegedly kept by the army on guptvahta.a not where it should be .. fictitious a lot.

                Why look at him? belay request
                Which of the people who knew them closely saw, after the arrest of the People's Commissars of the NKVD Rykov, Yagoda, etc.?
                What, nobody?

                So then what else is there, what kind of privilege should there be? belay request

                "Everything is like people" yes: arrest, Supreme Court of the USSR, execution.
            2. Walking April 14 2020 17: 55 New
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              Quote: Olgovich

              I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
              Quote: apro
              Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia .


              There were no requests from Beria and there were no interrogation protocols either.
              1. Fat
                Fat April 14 2020 20: 12 New
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                Quote: Hiking
                Quote: Olgovich

                I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
                Quote: apro
                Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia .


                There were no requests from Beria and there were no interrogation protocols either.

                http://istmat.info/node/22266
                http://istmat.info/node/22125
                Read health ...
    3. Cer59 28 June 2020 22: 00 New
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      "100 myths about Beria" read the jerk.
  • Gennady Korsunov April 14 2020 05: 37 New
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    You can now denigrate those people who lived then, not just Zhukov GK, 1000 times. Only VICTORY was behind them!
  • edeligor April 14 2020 05: 47 New
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    To Zhukov, as a symbol of Victory, it is criminal to neglect, much less to defile his name. To Zhukov, as a commander and military strategist, there are questions. BUT (!) No one who is trying to challenge his decisions has never been in that time pressure and under such pressure as Grigory Konstantinovich. And yet ... I do not know when, I do not know who, but they must answer for the Rzhevskaya meat grinder. For THIS was a CRIME !!!
    1. zenion April 15 2020 17: 12 New
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      The decisions were not Zhukov, but the General Staff and approved by the Headquarters. Under each operation was the signature of the Commander of the Headquarters and all the troops of Comrade Stalin. Before vising a document, no one except him knew how much and what should be thrown in that direction. Also, how it would look politically and what would bring the whole country, none of the generals cared about it, only Stalin did it, his deputies at each plant, his deputies on the entire line of arms delivery from factories to the front. Only after the arrangement of everything, the Commander-in-Chief put in a visa and gave the plan with orders to his deputy, for delivery to the right front and to monitor the implementation of the plan, and that was where his genius ended. Ordinary performer. And different versions of operations went from army commanders to front commanders and further to the General Staff. So the headquarters should have learned from Stalin, who was the Chairman of the Council of Ministers, how much and what could be at the disposal of the General Staff, how they can operate. Here, Stalin had to monitor the economy, food, uniforms, the health of fighters and everything else. Was this laid on Zhukov’s shoulders ?!
      1. edeligor April 15 2020 18: 17 New
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        Quote: zenion
        The decisions were not Zhukov, but the General Staff and approved by the Headquarters.

        I put you a plus for believing in the infallibility and innocence of the Marshals of Victory. If you carefully read my comment, then I noted that no one can put himself in the situation of the beginning of the Second World War and the features of that time. As I understand it, you are not a military man, otherwise you would have understood that general uniforms are not for beauty and wearing them imposes a SPECIAL responsibility on a military man. Namely - DECISION-MAKING or express their disagreement with a higher command. Everything else is from the evil one. In no case do I beg the merits of Grigory Konstantinovich, but ... Have you ever heard of the Rzhev operation? None of the military leaders of that time in his memoirs painfully remembered what happened there. Read, now it is possible. In terms of the number of forces involved, on our part, this operation surpasses the Battle of Stalingrad. Only Stalingrad can be called a battle, but Rzhev is a SLAUGHTER! And no one answered for this, if only hundreds of thousands of our fighters who were missing "..." With deep respect for you ...
        1. zenion April 17 2020 13: 51 New
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          His memoirs were published three times. And in each issue, everything became different. Either he did this, then suddenly someone else did it, but he commanded them ...
  • Catfish April 14 2020 05: 48 New
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    ... until the great marshal who defeated the Third Reich.

    Did he do it alone? But what about all the other millions of soldiers and officers of the Red Army? I'm not talking about I.V. Stalin, about Rokossovsky, Konev, Chuikov and other famous commanders.
    Zhukov !!! One and indivisible !!! You cannot live without an idol, you simply will be bent without it.
    1. Andrey VOV April 14 2020 06: 41 New
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      Look, as if he himself was not bent, who you are, an expert on stamps and nonsense, sitting here is spreading all sorts of nonsense that has long been refuted.
      1. Catfish April 14 2020 06: 57 New
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        Do a favor, poke your drinking companions. What nonsense and stamps are you talking about, great expert on the history of your own country? Is this Stalin nonsense ?! Rokossovsky stamp? !!! Well, well, you will go far, I would say where, but there is no desire to go down to your level.
        1. Andrey VOV April 14 2020 09: 57 New
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          Enumerate or find it yourself? Enough already to carry nonsense about the Berlin operation, here is at least one prper
    2. Lipchanin April 14 2020 07: 19 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      You cannot live without an idol, you simply will be bent without it.

      How will the next article be about
      I.V. Stalin, about Rokossovsky, Konev, Chuikov and other famous commanders.

      The rhetoric will be the same, only the last name will be from your list
    3. carstorm 11 April 14 2020 22: 38 New
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      An army of rams led by a lion is stronger than an army of lions
      led by a ram.
      Napoleon.
      without any hint of anything, not the most stupid person in history said so.
  • health April 14 2020 06: 05 New
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    The expression - "... after the death of Stalin ..."
    I would like to clarify in which battle or as a result of what accident did Stalin die?
    1. AU Ivanov. April 14 2020 08: 50 New
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      It is believed that the death of Stalin was not natural. That they helped him die.
      1. health April 14 2020 09: 12 New
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        I heard that. If we are talking about this, then we must understand that these concepts are completely different.
  • Ross xnumx April 14 2020 06: 09 New
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    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    And what is the blackening of the name of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and of the entire Soviet period as a whole, where millions of working people created and created?
    I’ll tell you so, perhaps the USSR’s casualties were higher, but do not forget the reasons why such a “rush” was waged. Do you have confidence that those bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have exploded in Moscow and Leningrad?
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 06: 37 New
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      Quote: ROSS 42
      Do you have confidence that those bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have exploded in Moscow and Leningrad?

      Yes, sure. This pie was baked for the Fuhrer.
    2. ver_ April 14 2020 10: 38 New
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      ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..
      1. Walking April 14 2020 18: 00 New
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        Quote: ver_
        ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..

        Well, do not write these words to Zhukov. This was said back in imperial times.
        1. Fat
          Fat April 14 2020 20: 45 New
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          Quote: Hiking
          Quote: ver_
          ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..

          Well, do not write these words to Zhukov. This was said back in imperial times.

          Alexandra Fedorovna (nee Princess Alice Victoria Elena Elena Louise Beatrice of Hesse-Darmstadt), wife of Emperor Nicholas II (since 1894). She got her name in honor of her mother - Princess Alice of England, daughter of the British Queen Victoria) deigned to speak in a similar vein about Russian generals "... they have many soldiers ..."
          Probably because she didn’t know the traditional words of British sailors about drowned ships and sailors:
          ... King still has an awful lot of ones (the king still has a lot of them)
          And about the "women", except remake and there is nothing written request
        2. ver_ April 17 2020 08: 09 New
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          ..there was no one forbidden to use this quote ..
  • Octopus April 14 2020 06: 40 New
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    I have a question for the patriotic public, including the author, about liberals and revisionist researchers.

    Less than a month ago, liberals and revisionist researchers in the center of Moscow sawed Marshal of Victory with a horse.


    So the question is. Where is the landing? Where is Mr. Shoigu?
    1. Lipchanin April 14 2020 07: 24 New
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      Quote: Octopus
      Less than a month ago, liberals and revisionist researchers in the center of Moscow sawed Marshal of Victory with a horse.

      Put another
      What's the matter?
      In the center of Moscow, in front of the Historical Museum, a monument was dismantled to Marshal Georgy Zhukov. As it turned out, the old monument is being replaced with a new one. The photos from the scene show that now the "new" Marshal Zhukov is sitting in the saddle and does not stretch his hand forward, but salutes.

      The former monument to the sculptor Vyacheslav Klykov and architect Yuri Grigoryev was erected on May 8, 1995, in honor of the celebration of the 50th anniversary of victory in World War II. Marshal Zhukov is depicted on a horse during the adoption of the Victory Parade on June 24, 1945 on Red Square.

      Footage of the historical moment - in the photo gallery "Gazeta.Ru".

      20.03.2020, 12: 35


      During the installation of a new monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov on Manezhnaya Square, March 20, 2020
      1. Octopus April 14 2020 07: 28 New
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        Quote: Lipchanin
        Put another
        What's the matter?

        He's not there.
        1. Insurgent April 14 2020 08: 01 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          He's not there.

          But lying is not necessary ...



          Monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov replaced at Manezhnaya Square
          Instead of an equestrian monument to the commander with his hands down, a statue appeared, saluting. Later it was called a copy, installed during the restoration of the original

          THE ART NEWSPAPER
          MARCH 20, 2020


          Another link: https://rg.ru/2020/03/20/reg-cfo/zachem-v-moskve-zamenili-pamiatnik-marshalu-zhukovu.html
          1. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 05 New
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            https://tass.ru/moskva/8036229
          2. Mordvin 3 April 14 2020 08: 16 New
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            Something the horse’s head is not particularly suitable for the rest. And welded on the snot.
            1. Insurgent April 14 2020 08: 18 New
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              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              Something the horse’s head is not particularly suitable for the rest. And welded on the snot.

              I do not know... request Perhaps this is just a "tack", and "brought to mind" already in place?
              1. Mordvin 3 April 14 2020 08: 23 New
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                Quote: Insurgent
                Perhaps "bring to mind" will be in place?

                And with a harness a mess. laughing
        2. Lipchanin April 14 2020 08: 37 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          He's not there.

          Where is the photo from? belay
          Did I draw it myself? belay
          1. Insurgent April 14 2020 08: 47 New
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            Quote: Lipchanin
            Where is the photo from?
            Did I draw it myself?

            Also me, the "artist" was found recourse . I drew better !!! wassat laughing

            1. Lipchanin April 14 2020 10: 25 New
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              Quote: Insurgent
              Also, the "artist" was found ... I painted better !!!

              Afiget !!! belay
              The whole post is gone, there is only one phrase left belay belay belay
            2. Lipchanin April 14 2020 10: 36 New
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              Quote: Insurgent
              ... I drew better !!!

              It’s just written in a different manner no wassat
          2. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 56 New
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            Quote: Lipchanin
            Where is the photo from?

            Photo from March 20, if I do not confuse anything. And now, it seems, April.
            1. Lipchanin April 14 2020 10: 34 New
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              Quote: Octopus
              Photo from March 20, if I do not confuse anything. And now, it seems, April.

              Do you upload a new photo every day?
              Have you ever read the link you posted?
              MOSCOW, March 20. / TASS /. The monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov on Manezhnaya Square in Moscow was dismantled, it will be returned to its place after the restoration, dedicated to the 75th anniversary of the Victory.

              Here is a photo of the new and old
              1. Insurgent April 14 2020 10: 42 New
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                Quote: Lipchanin

                Do you upload a new photo every day?

                In my simplicity of my soul, I wanted to specifically give for Octopus and others, a link to webcams on Manege Square, but alas ...

                I did not find any working request .
                1. Lipchanin April 14 2020 11: 24 New
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                  Quote: Insurgent
                  I did not find any working ...

                  Most likely, either new ones are set for Victory Day, or old ones are being repaired
                  But most likely new
  • polar fox April 14 2020 07: 08 New
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    Well, I don’t know ... my grandfather served in the Stavka war (I found out after his death), I personally carried Stalin's orders for signing ... when I started to “rub” him about Zhukov’s greatness, he stood up abruptly and left, throwing him over his shoulder - "Beetles ... there wasn’t more ... sir ... how many people were ruined ..." I first heard curses from my grandfather ... and here is the "Marshal of Victory" ..
    when he served, we also had similar “heroes”, and films were made about them (such as documentaries), although the prosecutor’s office cried for them.
  • Unknown April 14 2020 07: 14 New
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    Zhukov’s personality is not simple, and it’s impossible to make a hero from him. When you read, memories and thoughts, he really is a hero from heroes, and you start reading Marshal Aviation Golovanov, or Marshal Rokossovsky, Army General Gorbatov, and immediately there appears a completely non-heroic image of a beetle. and the inventory of a search in his country house and at home, generally characterizes him as a grabber and grabber. he also did not suffer from the modesty of beetles, and the sovereign repeatedly pointed out this to him. already with the WWI war, it was clear that the war was won by the one with a strong economy and rear, while the generals themselves were already secondarily. and if, by right, it is considered to whom they owe victory, then everything is clear- Comrade STALIN. if you look at how the current one is trying to cope with the virus, and how it does, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter. in difficult times, another, decisive ruler is needed, then there will be performers, like the beetles, and victory, as they said earlier, will be theirs.
  • avia12005 April 14 2020 07: 28 New
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    And the Mausoleum, covered with plywood on May 9, is the same. Or a ban on wearing a portrait of Stalin in the ranks of the Immortal Regiment? And the glorification of some of the Cossacks who fought on the Wehrmacht? Yes, we have hidden followers of power in power.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 29 New
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      Quote: Snigir
      Allied forces commander General Eisenhower about Marshal Zhukov

      Well, firstly, Eisenhower does not have to be trusted. In particular, the well-known Mr. Isaev claims (but without relying on the sources for this particular conversation) that the infantry of the Red Army (advanced units) at the last stage of the war were massively trained in the basics of the sapper business and she was really instructed to continue the offensive through the minefield - the Soviet side is good She knew how the Germans were fined for losing their pace and initiative.
      Second.
      Each operational group had one anti-tank tank. Having overcome the crest of the hill, they drove straight to the minefield. Although they had to fight not only with mines, but also with thick mud, at first they showed themselves well. Under the blows of the chains, several minutes exploded, adding a couple of extra funnels to the field. But in the end, both of the demolition tanks got bogged down, because there wasn’t enough engine power on wet ground to crank the drum and tracks at the same time. Frozen, they were excellent targets, and were soon knocked out.

      The next tanks of both columns had no choice but to go around the barriers and break through. It ended in a nightmarish domino - the first of the tanks rounded the barrage and drove a few yards before being blown up by a mine. The next went around both of them, and moved a little further, when he also came across a mine and was destroyed.

      This chain lasted until then, until one tank broke through, finally, through the minefield to continue the attack. The one following him tried to follow the same route, and sometimes he managed to pass the minefield unscathed. By the third tank, however, the soft earth turned into a swamp, where armored vehicles were mated, despite the “duck legs” that we placed on the connecting links. And every stuck tank became a fixed target for killer anti-tank fire. The Germans continued to shell the wrecked car until it caught fire. And if the crew tried to get out, he fell under concentrated fire from small arms.


      Not everything is so simple with mine clearance from the Americans.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Octopus April 14 2020 08: 52 New
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          I almost never put cons. So the claim is not addressed.
          Quote: Snigir
          gave a "not comfortable" quote from a book

          As for the humanism of Comrade Zhukov, then about the person who worked as deputy comrade Stalin, it is unlikely to be able to find something unexpected. You, for your part, would be wise to consider that under the command of Eisenhower there were mainly American voters. There were no American voters under Zhukov’s command, so it’s more accurate to judge him by the standards of his Chinese colleagues. If you really need an American, then Field Marshal MacArthur is better than the others when he was last in the Philippines.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Moskovit April 14 2020 09: 32 New
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      I heard that many times. But I never read in the memoirs of soldiers that they were driven into minefields like this. There were always sappers in front, who made passages, and followed by infantry.
      Now I read the memoirs of Junger (that same writer), he also served during WWII. He describes how the Germans mined the cutting edge. He wrote that the Russians were sneaking up and removing mines. As the Germans themselves run into their own fields and die.
      I’m generally silent about the prisoners. It was a war of extermination. Soviet prisoners of war starved, shot, forced to work until she was completely exhausted, and the great mercy of the Soviet people and the country's leadership that they were released alive in Germany.
      1. Charlie April 14 2020 21: 57 New
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        Read Pyltsyn, "The Truth About the Penal Battles." It just describes this moment. The author himself fought in the battalion with the company or platoon, I don’t remember.
    3. Olgovich April 14 2020 13: 13 New
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      Quote: Snigir
      When we rest against the minefield, our infantry continues the offensive as if it were not there.

      Bring not Amer’s BALTUNA, but memoirs and memoirs of our soldiers, officers and generals about it.

      Or ... everyone died in mines

      ? All 35 млн acting army?
  • Ros 56 April 14 2020 08: 40 New
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    It’s time for such things as slander and denigration of our Winners, just put them on a five-year-old for thought and a better understanding of what was happening then.
    1. tatra April 14 2020 09: 03 New
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      Who will plant? Defamation of the Soviet period, manic criticism of how the Soviet Communists and their supporters worked and fought is the only justification for the Communist enemies for 30 years from the enemies of the Communists, their ideology, their "history" of their country. Neither for themselves, nor FOR what they themselves have done, the enemies of the Communists have nothing.
  • Charlie April 14 2020 08: 58 New
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    Quote: Sea Cat
    ... it would be nice to give an example of key battles, numbers, etc.

    And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first. "Brilliant" was a strategic operation, and how many lives of our soldiers it cost.

    What else can you expect from a follower of a frontal, ramming strategy. He and Rzhev so stormed almost the entire 42nd year. He laid so many soldiers there in the ground, which even now is not known exactly how many. At the same time, he didn’t take Rzhev
    1. tatra April 14 2020 10: 31 New
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      And the losses of the Red Army in the Rzhev-Vyazma operation, the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet were just as falsified as in the Berlin operation. Compete with each other - who throws more losses.
      This is the whole ideology of the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people — and slander the USSR and the Soviet people, and create the myth "how these scoops communicated poorly, ineffectively fought", and justify their allies in attacking the USSR and the Soviet people - Hitler and Hitlerites.
  • wolf20032 April 14 2020 09: 10 New
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    And who was the Chief of the General Staff on June 22.06.41, 41? So who is to blame for the defeat of XNUMX years? Is the Chief of the General Staff not responsible for this? It turns out that he is not a strategist, but mediocrity, a coward and a thief.
    1. Lekz April 16 2020 02: 00 New
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      Let me be interested, but who was not defeated by the Germans in 1940, by the Japanese in 1941. Everyone was "mediocrity, a coward and a thief." Or is I swinging at the holy?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Cer59 28 June 2020 22: 05 New
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        dddla? https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru exaggerated glory of the beetle. read and understand.
  • Maxim364364 April 14 2020 09: 30 New
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    Before pouring mud on Marshall, there are such words I don’t remember the truth from where "did you see a machine gun or a tank near, and did you go to attack, say?" Sitting in warmth and comfort you can write any crap about the Great Victory, but none of today's scribblers can imagine what it cost every soldier and marshal.
  • Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich April 14 2020 09: 31 New
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    Yes, indeed, everyone who feels like talking and writing about Victory Marshal Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov ... Liberals naturally scold, patriots praise ... this is understandable and natural, but I believe that we have a group of absolutely objective experts on the issue: so who was Marshal Zhukov - the most brilliant commander or something directly opposite.
    I mean the professors of the military academies of NATO member countries! I believe that these professors cannot be suspected of loving us, our history, our marshals and generals ...
    We are talking about Zhukov as a marshal, as a commander, but not a diplomat and a connoisseur of etiquette.
    Here comes the question: What do the teachers of the military academies of NATO countries say / write about the military operations of Marshal Zhukov? Do the respective military luminaries of NATO countries recognize the talent and genius of Marshal Zhukov within their subjects?
    1. Cer59 28 June 2020 22: 06 New
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      https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru читай
      1. Well, first of all, I suggested voicing the opinion of foreign military expert teachers, scientists about the military talents of Marshal Pobeda, and not a homegrown “whistleblower” in any way, and secondly, I will tell you a little secret of good education: in Russia, it’s common to turn to unfamiliar people to “you "
  • steelmaker April 14 2020 09: 34 New
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    Personally, I consider Zhukov, as a commander, outstanding. No wonder Stalin called him "our Suvorov." But as a person, he found himself with all the harmful vices. Khrushchev and played on this. And I can’t understand Zhukov, how could he support the scoundrel Khrushchev? And it was his support that changed the history of the development of the USSR.
    "Old age is the result of our life!"
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Undecim April 14 2020 10: 22 New
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    Why they hate Marshal Zhukov
    Because it is shamelessly used for their propaganda purposes by everyone, including the state.
    Because instead of an unbiased biography of the commander (and what Zhukov was an outstanding commander of World War II is recognized all over the world), thoughtless praises and sometimes “sensational” revelations are produced in vain.
    Because they write about him those who generally can’t write about anyone and who won’t write anything. it turns out a sewage on the fan. The author is a prime example.
    Because on the one hand, a monument is being erected to Zhukov, and on the other, beer bottles are decorated with his portrait. Is a bottle of beer a place for portraits of such people?

    Because the prolonged use of history for propaganda purposes weaned society to perceive its own history as history, as a statement of events in their entirety.
    Society needs a confrontation, a conflict. If there is no “tearing of covers” or “tearing of covers from tearing of covers”, history is not perceived.
    And this applies not only to Zhukov. This applies to the whole story.
    1. Octopus April 14 2020 11: 23 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      Because the prolonged use of history for propaganda purposes weaned society to perceive its own history as history, as a statement of events in their entirety.

      Depressed plus.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Altona April 14 2020 10: 49 New
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    We can only say one thing: “Winners are not judged” and the second “And who are the judges?” Usually the judges are "miserable, insignificant personalities", if we quote Panikovsky from the novel "The Golden Calf."
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Uma palata April 14 2020 12: 20 New
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    Why do they hate? For our victory and hate. Zhukov became the personification of the Victory, and they, the "Western partners" and the entire rat Bandera army, all of whom they were, remained. Defeated enemies. The Germans did not refuse to recognize Zhukov’s victories, after all, whatever one may say, the Germans are warriors. But Bandera, they are from around the corner, they just WAIT. Bandera all kinds of beetles like a bone in the throat.
    1. zenion April 15 2020 16: 49 New
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      Marshal of Victory? Senior, where will they send! Then Mehlis and several from military intelligence kept an eye on him. Zhukov knew that they had an order - in which case, not to be taken out, but to be shot. And the Marshal of Victory was the whole of the USSR. If the factories hadn’t done that, the marshal would have fought throwing bricks? After Zhukov wanted to shoot the division commander for refusing to go on the attack without artillery preparation, Zhukov took out a gun and threatened to kill him. But the commander was not afraid and said, even though you have a lot of stars, and you, as you were a sergeant major, remained so. He immediately cooled down. This was reported to Stalin that he threatened the generals with a pistol, and beat senior officers in the face. Stalin called him to the Politburo and said to everyone - we have a workers 'and peasants' army, not the Tsar’s, draw conclusions. Since then, when leaving for a business trip, Mehlis and several NKVDeshnikov rode with him. Beria suggested that he might run away from the Germans from fear. Then an order was received for those accompanying in some situations - to immediately shoot. Zhukov knew this and tried to stay away from the front line. Suddenly the Germans would go around - this is death.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Trilobite Master April 14 2020 13: 19 New
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    Somewhere in a neighboring state, someone once again deafly and inaudibly farted in our direction ...
    We would not even have heard and we would not have known anything about it if the vigilant Samsonov had not sensed and reproduced us both sound and smell ...
    Question to the author: why didn’t they fully cite Levchenko’s article? At least the reference had to be left, otherwise the person tried. wassat
    But seriously, why not parse the article thesis? Here is a quote - here is a refutation. If you got down to business, then do it normally. And it turns out - "once again they lied to Zhukov because they are liars, and liars because they are bastards, and in fact Zhukov is good and what they write about him is not true." All.
    I have great respect for the Marshal of Victory, but after this article it just hurts for him. Some people smear his image with dirt, others replicate it intensely, and who will launder it? Not to be considered an attempt to launder today's article, in which there is less information about Zhukov than in the history textbook for elementary school ...
    With such "whitewash" as Samsonov and defilers is not necessary. wassat
    1. Korsar4 April 14 2020 22: 11 New
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      It is surprising that the person is closer to us - and the degree of scandalous discussion is higher.

      “Walking is slimy
      Under the pebbles is different.
      So, that is close
      We better keep silent ”(c).
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Eug
    Eug April 14 2020 15: 19 New
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    Question to the apologists for Zhukov — everything that he found during the search, a train with property from Germany — was it real or was it invented? I’m not talking about purely military successes, but, as for me, he had at least four major failures - an attempt to counter-strike in the Lutsk-Brody triangle - Kovel, the liberation of Kiev (he and Vatutin repeatedly tried to launch an offensive from the Bukrinsky bridgehead, then they were forced to castling "TA Lelyushenko from Bukrinsky to Lyutezhsky bridgehead, our historiography gives this out as a brilliant achievement, there is also a disastrous Dnieper landing (you can, of course, blame everything on poor preparation and lack of control on the part of Skripko and Vatutin, but shouldn't the chief know real preparedness troops?). Korsun - the Shevchenko’s breakthrough of the Germans from the encirclement, the breakthrough of the Hube tank army to the west (he was expected south) from the encirclement during the Proskurovsky-Chernivtsi operation ... So there are spots on the sun, and we must speak about them openly - like that as well as about his brilliant successes and victories of the Soviet people, achieved under his leadership.
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    2. ccsr April 14 2020 18: 00 New
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      Quote: Eug
      Question to the apologists for Zhukov — everything that he found during the search, a train with property from Germany — was it real or was it invented?

      The story with trophies does not paint Zhukov at all, and hardly anyone doubts this. But you yourself think about where the “train” came from (which is at least 20-30 freight cars), which could be unloaded and delivered to the service cottage of those times. Can you imagine what could have happened? I don’t believe this, I think that the story with the “echelon” was invented by his ill-wishers, by decree of Stalin, who decided to slightly lower the arrogant Marshal of Victory. This version is not considered?
      1. Eug
        Eug April 14 2020 18: 41 New
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        It seems that everything spun from the report of the railway customs. And unload and deliver - I see no problems, transportation under the guise of special cargo, etc. I have never met any refutation on this issue, although I have been interested in it for about 20 years. If opinions on purely military events are different, then on acquisitions, in addition to refuting emotions, I did not find anything, although I am always interested in different opinions.
    3. ser56 April 15 2020 17: 18 New
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      Quote: Eug
      he had at least four major failures -

      the main failure is the defeat of the tank troops of the Red Army by forming the 21MK in the spring of 41 ... request
      1. ccsr April 15 2020 18: 15 New
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        Quote: ser56
        the main failure is the defeat of the tank troops of the Red Army by forming the 21MK in the spring of 41 ...

        You can’t draw Zhukov to this in any way - he only performed what was planned before him. He could only express his opinion as an NGS and achieve a redistribution of allocated equipment for the districts in the 2nd quarter, and in this he was limited due to the fact that other deputy commissars and commanders of the armed forces were responsible for this.
        1. ser56 April 15 2020 20: 15 New
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          Quote: ccsr
          he only did what was planned before him.

          with his character? bully I note - in the memoir he did not say a word about this, but he said that they were mistaken with the capabilities of the military industry ... hi
          1. ccsr April 16 2020 12: 07 New
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            Quote: ser56
            with his character?

            At his post in the first place - he was just the newly appointed deputy commissar and did not have the right to give orders to other deputies and the commander of the armed forces, not to mention the NKVMF.
            Quote: ser56
            but that they were mistaken with the capabilities of the military industry, he said ...

            He said this in his memoirs many years after the war, and when he was appointed, he had no idea what was planned for 1941 before him by the government of our country of industry. So I emphasize once again that you need to be careful about your memoirs.
            1. ser56 April 16 2020 12: 36 New
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              Quote: ccsr
              he was just the newly appointed deputy commissar and did not have the right to order other deputies and the commander of the armed forces, not to mention the NKVMF.

              and his fleet was not interested - see Kuznetsov’s memoirs request as for the rest - these are your fantasies ...
              The main advantage of the GKZH is its will!

              Quote: ccsr
              be careful to approach the memoirs.

              like lying? hi
              Quote: ccsr
              he had no idea what was planned for 1941 before him by the government of our industrial country

              you have a strange understanding of the performance of duties beg. Uh ... request Did his assistants all disappear too? Documents?
              1. ccsr April 16 2020 13: 09 New
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                Quote: ser56
                and his fleet was not interested - see Kuznetsov’s memoirs

                The fleet was not subordinate to the people's commissar of defense on the eve of the war - have you heard about this? How could Zhukov get into the affairs of the fleet?

                Quote: ser56
                The main advantage of the GKZH is its will!

                You never know the psychology of those who first come to the People’s Commissariat of Defense to serve, so believe in fairy tales. Zhukov’s will appeared after Stalin gave him powers, and he could have, after the defeat of the KOVO, had he not been moved to the General Staff, repeated the fate of Kirponos, and then hell would have been remembered as a commander who led to the Victory.

                Quote: ser56
                like lying?

                Exaggerates his merits and understates his mistakes - I would put it that way.
                Quote: ser56
                you have a strange understanding of the performance of duties beg. GS.

                Have you yourself at least once stood on the threshold of the General Staff in order to talk about how they understand something? I think no...
                1. ser56 April 16 2020 13: 19 New
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                  Quote: ccsr
                  Have you heard about this? How could Zhukov get into the affairs of the fleet?

                  trite, sorry you didn’t read - interaction on the flanks, etc. -that is what Kuznetsov writes ... I note - in the USSR ...
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You never know the psychology of those who first come to the People’s Commissariat of Defense to serve, so believe in fairy tales.

                  I will answer politely - you are a military psychologist or were the beginning. GSh SA?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Zhukov’s will appeared after Stalin gave him powers,

                  so he shot in batches on HG? I recommend not broadcasting your fantasies, but studying the facts ... hi
                  Quote: ccsr
                  repeat the fate of Kirponos,

                  and what is wrong? Killed in battles for the Motherland - honor and memory!
                  Quote: ccsr
                  and downplaying their mistakes

                  however, on the topic under discussion about MK spoke for sure ... request
                  Quote: ccsr
                  I think no...

                  I am in a different department, but all systems work on the same principles ... hi
                  1. ccsr April 16 2020 13: 38 New
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                    Quote: ser56
                    trite, sorry you didn’t read - interaction on the flanks, etc. - what Kuznetsov writes about ...

                    Before you interact, you need to coordinate, and this alone posed so many problems that you never dreamed of. So it is not in vain that after the war the fleet was again returned to the subordination of the Moscow Region.
                    Quote: ser56
                    I will answer politely - you are a military psychologist or were the beginning. GSh SA?

                    I studied military psychology during my studies, but I had a chance to serve in the General Staff, which is why I immediately calculate many verbiage from their enchanting statements.
                    Quote: ser56
                    so he shot in batches on HG?

                    They were shot at the verdict of a military tribunal - even Zhukov had no right to order the execution of someone without trial. You’ll tell someone else about the packs of executed people, although I know that some were brought to trial precisely by order of Zhukov. But this was done not only by Zhukov, but also by other military leaders during the war.
                    Quote: ser56
                    however, on the topic under discussion about MK spoke accurately.

                    After the war or before it began? Maybe give a link to the pre-war document with his statements on this subject?
                    Quote: ser56
                    I am in a different department, but all systems work on the same principles ..

                    In theory, yes, but in practice, even power structures have big differences in the principle of acquisition. And the cadres decide everything, as the leader of the peoples taught us.
                    1. ser56 April 16 2020 13: 55 New
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                      Quote: ccsr
                      you need to agree, but this alone posed so many problems that you never dreamed

                      1) if you do not agree, then there will be a mess, but the fleet wanted ... request
                      2) as I understand it, that the inner rudeness of the boots is inescapable? hi you can’t even imagine what I saw and know .. repeat
                      Quote: ccsr
                      but I’ve been able to serve in the General Staff, that’s why I immediately calculate many verbiage from their enchanting statements

                      always cries of petty clerks about omniscience ... when he was at the Academy. Dzerzhinsky watched the general’s office - the tunic was hanging on the wall - there was no space under the closet ... laughing
                      Quote: ccsr
                      even Zhukov had no right to order the execution of someone without trial

                      there are documents, read ...
                      Quote: ccsr
                      After the war or before it began? Maybe give a link to the pre-war document with his statements on this subject?

                      looking for brains from boots is useless! bully read his memoir, and all pre-war documents had a signature stamp, declassified or not - I don’t know ...
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And the cadres decide everything, as the leader of the peoples taught us.

                      That is why a club with 4 cells of general education and military courses is the most suitable candidate for the beginning. GS Red Army request This is about the personnel policy of the person you are quoting ... hi
                      1. ccsr April 16 2020 14: 47 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        you can’t even imagine what I saw and know ..

                        In military service or where? And it’s not entirely clear, maybe you can explain to dentists how to treat your teeth.
                        Quote: ser56
                        when he was at the Academy. Dzerzhinsky watched the general’s office

                        Did you work there as a floor polisher? By the way, in educational institutions there are always problems with the premises, so the example is not indicative.
                        Quote: ser56
                        read his memoir, and all pre-war documents had a signature stamp, declassified or not - I don’t know ...

                        You will draw a pre-war picture from his memoirs, but as I understand it, you cannot imagine anything serious from the documents.
                        Quote: ser56
                        That is why a club with 4 cells of general education and military courses is the most suitable candidate for the beginning. GS Red Army

                        I can’t assess the correctness of the decisions made by Stalin then, but I think he was no more stupid than you, although I personally think that Zhukov was not yet ready for the post of the NSS in the beginning of 1941.
                        Quote: ser56
                        ) I understand that the inner rudeness of the boots is inescapable?

                        With respect to deletants trying to teach military professionals - always.
                      2. ser56 April 16 2020 16: 28 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        Did you work there as a floor polisher?

                        you show your stupidity to the public? bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        but as I understand it, you can’t imagine anything serious from the documents.
                        you have a classic of demagoguery - to you the memoirs of the beg. General Staff of the Red Army before the war is not a pointer ... bully Do you need documents ... Do you think that when writing memoirs, the GKZh did not request documents? the right words - the clown ... crying
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I can’t evaluate the correctness of the decisions made by Stalin then

                        if it's not a secret - what is stopping you? When making a decision, could the IVS request a private matter?
                        1) re-read the certification of Rokossovsky to the GKZh regiment, there it is written directly about the staff work ...
                        2) to assess the level of education of the State Committee for Housing, even if it’s a purely military one - well, it’s clearly not rolling ...
                        3) evaluate the performance of the GZ service — purely team experience — does not know how the staffs work ...
                        4) Evaluate the horizons of the GKZh - primary education is primary, does not even have a tendency to write scientific papers on tactics, I'm not talking about military theory request
                        5) Compare HMS on all counts? Yes, the same Egorov? hi

                        Quote: ccsr
                        although I personally believe that Zhukov at the beginning of 1941 was not yet ready for the post of the NSS.

                        and he was not ready for the rest of his life ... request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In respect deletantstrying to teach military professionals - always.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        I immediately calculate many verbiage

                        1) turn your ardor on yourself!
                        2) employees of the General Staff of the SA look funny, who write so competently ... so you are a controversial pro, did you command a commandant platoon or a garage ... hi
                        3) I have some military education, officer rank repeat
                      3. ccsr April 16 2020 18: 35 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        When making a decision, could the IVS request a private matter?
                        1) re-read the certification of Rokossovsky to the GKZh regiment, there it is written directly about the staff work ...

                        Rokossovsky himself only recently got out of prison, so that Stalin might not have paid attention to his certification, especially since Zhukov was the commander of the KOVO. And in general, I doubt that Stalin studied Zhukov's personal file before the war. Tymoshenko personally reported to him on the candidacy, and he made a decision - so it was made at that level.
                        Quote: ser56
                        evaluate the performance of GZ service — purely team experience — does not know how staffs work ...

                        In fact, many NGSs had just team experience behind them. For example, Akhromeev commanded a tank army and was the first deputy commander of the district before getting into the general staff.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Compare HMS on all counts? Yes, the same Egorov?
                        You will compare it with Yegorov, since you didn’t find it smarter, but Shaposhnikov was an outstanding NSS, and few people compare with him in our history of the XNUMXth century. But this is not the point, but the fact that I am sure that Zhukov was not moved by Stalin, but Tymoshenko, although I could be wrong.
                        Quote: ser56
                        and he was not ready for the rest of his life ...

                        He took up a higher position - so the NHS is only the stage of his entire career.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I have some military education, officer rank

                        In our country, some housewives have it, especially if they had a medical education. So burn on, you're funny when you puff out your cheeks.
                      4. ser56 April 16 2020 19: 05 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        Tymoshenko personally reported to him on the candidacy, and he made a decision - so it was made at that level.

                        You are mistaken ...
                        Quote: ccsr
                        For example, Akhromeev commanded a tank army

                        "In 1967 he graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces. From July 1967 to October 1968 Chief of Staff - First Deputy Commander of the 8th Tank Army. "
                        you listen so he
                        Quote: ccsr
                        they had behind them just team experience.
                        and 4 classes ... hi
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You will compare with Egorov, since you haven’t found smarter,

                        you demonstrate your poor education - no more request Egorov was after HMS and the beginning of it. General Staff of the Red Army - from 31 -37 ... hi
                        in addition, he had a normal general (He graduated from the Samara classical gymnasium in 1901.) and a military education "He graduated from the first category (with honors) from the Kazan infantry cadet school, where he studied in 1902-1905," 1MB combat officer, had pedagogical experience and staff experience - "was transferred to the Tiflis Grand Prince Mikhail Nikolayevich military school, where he taught military sciences at accelerated courses, graduating warrant officers [1], while also being assistant to the head of the school. On August 21, 1916 he was appointed and. for instructions of the headquarters of the 2nd Caucasian Cavalry Corps [", he had experience in mobilization work -" From January 1918 he worked in the Military Department of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee. ", commanded the associations, was an attaché and again worked in higher mobilization authorities - so he was ready to serve in the General Staff ... by the way - he created GS!
                        Quote: ccsr
                        He took a higher position

                        therefore, he was engaged in uniforms ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        So burn on, you're funny when you puff out your cheeks.

                        how amusing you are in your ignorance, like a GS officer ... bully So pom. commandant or pompoteha served? bully
                      5. ccsr April 16 2020 19: 21 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        You are mistaken ...

                        How do you prove it?
                        Quote: ser56
                        In 1967 he graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces. From July 1967 to October 1968, the chief of staff was the first deputy commander of the 8th Panzer Army. "

                        This is the stage of his career, and he did not leave this position for the General Staff - however, for you this is a Chinese letter.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Egorov was after HMS and the beginning of it. General Staff of the Red Army - from 31 -37 ...

                        And what follows from this, if he did not distinguish himself in this post, and even talked drunk excessively?
                        Quote: ser56
                        how funny you are in your ignorance

                        All your opponents here are "illiterate", only everything is exactly the opposite.
                        Quote: ser56
                        So pom. commandant or pompoteha served?

                        Your denseness does not surprise me, floor polisher, but you continue to grimace, it will not leave you.
                      6. ser56 April 16 2020 20: 23 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        How do you prove it?

                        corny - at this level the IVS itself made a decision - there are many confirmations to that .. request
                        .
                        Quote: ccsr
                        However, for you this is a Chinese letter.

                        I corrupted you in ignorance request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        and chatted drunk excessively?

                        Did you hold a glass? you seem to be from the political ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You have all the opponents here are "illiterate"

                        what to do is the norm ... the masses of people are poorly educated request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Your denseness does not surprise me, polisher

                        Usually such hatred of the right professions at the upstairs ... request
                        The level of your education and presentation style is not suitable for an officer of the main departments of the General Staff, so you are either a political worker or from the rear services ... hi
                      7. ccsr April 17 2020 11: 44 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        corny - at this level the IVS itself made a decision - there are many confirmations to that ..

                        He made the decision on the basis of what information he received about the nominee - Stalin could not know everyone thoroughly, which is why he trusted the selection of personnel to his like-minded people.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I corrupted you in ignorance

                        Ignorance of what?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Did you hold a glass? you seem to be from the political ...

                        You are just verbiage, which I have known for a long time.
                        Quote: ser56
                        what to do is the norm ... the masses of people are poorly educated

                        What is your military education, if you famously represent yourself as a commander?
                        Quote: ser56
                        The level of your education and presentation style is not suitable for an officer of the main departments of the General Staff, so you are either a political worker or from the rear services ...

                        You are just a racket, and no more, and lying too much, and it catches the eye.
                      8. ser56 April 17 2020 15: 23 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are just a racket, and no more, and lying too much, and it catches the eye.

                        it seems I guessed with a political worker ... bully
                      9. ccsr April 17 2020 17: 29 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        it seems I guessed with a political worker ...

                        Past the box office, a jacket.
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  • fkmdtn62 April 14 2020 15: 43 New
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    Bastards. These are all echoes of the works of Suvorov, that is, Rezun. such a surname.
    ZHUKOV is a great commander. And no matter how hard their hangers-on try to defame Zhukov’s name, they won’t succeed.
    1. ser56 April 15 2020 18: 01 New
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      Quote: fkmdtn62
      And no matter how hard their hangers-on try to defame Zhukov’s name, they won’t succeed.

      is this the only argument? read ...
      “In the summer of 1946, a meeting of the Supreme Military Council took place, which dealt with the case of Marshal Zhukov based on the interrogation of the Chief Marshal of Aviation A. A. Novikov, who had been arrested before that by the state security agencies in the“ case of aviators. ”Zhukov was charged with misappropriation of trophies and inflating his merits in defeating Hitler with personal wordingMr. I. Stalin "appropriated the development of operations for which he had nothing to do." hi
  • WapentakeLokki April 14 2020 19: 27 New
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    Quote: Unknown
    Zhukov’s personality is not simple, and it’s impossible to make a hero from him. When you read, memories and thoughts, he really is a hero from heroes, and you start reading Marshal Aviation Golovanov, or Marshal Rokossovsky, Army General Gorbatov, and immediately there appears a completely non-heroic image of a beetle. and the inventory of a search in his country house and at home, generally characterizes him as a grabber and grabber. he also did not suffer from the modesty of beetles, and the sovereign repeatedly pointed out this to him. already with the WWI war, it was clear that the war was won by the one with a strong economy and rear, while the generals themselves were already secondarily. and if, by right, it is considered to whom they owe victory, then everything is clear- Comrade STALIN. if you look at how the current one is trying to cope with the virus, and how it does, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter. in difficult times, another, decisive ruler is needed, then there will be performers, like the beetles, and victory, as they said earlier, will be theirs.

    ..aga I also heard a “funny” story .. like during a search at Marshal Pobedy’s dacha .. 55 (..agy FIFTY FIVE CARL !!!) trophy bicycle pumps were found .. (well and .. for so many reasons, not a single one was found ..) funny .. because I remember ..
    1. Unknown April 15 2020 18: 44 New
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      Well, listen to a funny story about 55-bike pumps, no need. you just need to take an interest in the Zhukov’s case, since it is on the Internet, and draw conclusions yourself. and the figure is 55, it’s present in the case, but not the pumps ........... For example: woolen fabrics, silk, brocade, pan-velvet and other materials - just over 4000 meters; furs - sable, monkey, fox, fur seals, astrakhan, astrakhan fur - a total of 323 skins;

      top quality chevro - 35 leathers; expensive large-sized carpets and tapestries, exported from Potsdam and other palaces and houses in Germany - a total of 44 pieces ... valuable paintings of classical paintings of large sizes in the artistic framework - a total of 55 pieces, hung in rooms and partially stored in the warehouse;

      expensive sets, tableware and tea utensils (porcelain with artistic decoration, crystal) - 7 large boxes; silver cutlery and tea sets - 2 drawers; richly decorated accordions - 8 pieces; unique hunting rifles of the company Goland-Goland and others - only 20 pieces ........... as you can see, we are talking about paintings. beetles was a big fan of painting, what can I say. it’s not necessary to make of Zhukov - George the Victorious, it will not work, not that person. he is a good, intelligent, performer and all. not capable of anything more, and all of his throwing, to Khrushchev, and from Khrushchev, speak of his qualities inculcated in the tsarist army at a school of non-commissioned officers. those who are currently in power, closer to that, have removed him, so you can spit in the back.
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  • DeGreen April 14 2020 19: 58 New
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    And who hates him? Liberals, neo-Nazis of Ukraine and Georgia. Profits. I never heard anything bad about this MAN from war veterans.
  • LeonidL April 14 2020 21: 31 New
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    “He showed himself as a person who knows how to manage large masses of people.” - Very precisely! Many people don’t understand what a huge work, what science is command and control of troops, the feeling of troops - it is akin to the ability of a highly qualified conductor to rule a huge orchestra, but the commander’s “orchestra” is not only people in overcoats from ordinary to generals, it’s both intelligence and a lot of equipment, supply of ammunition, fuel, clothing, food ..., communications, ... This is a huge responsibility. This is something that the premature army general Pavlov and many others could not demonstrate. Some learned through someone else's and their blood - others ...
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  • tegezen April 14 2020 22: 41 New
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    The main reason for hitting Zhukov is that he is Russian by nationality. Marshal of Victory and Russian. It would be Malinovsky, Rokosovsky would have arranged it to poke in the face twenty years later, that you even Ivanov non-Russian commander.
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  • Revolver April 15 2020 06: 33 New
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    Zhukov’s personality is very controversial, like so many in those days. For him testifies that Stalin himself considered him necessary. Why - it is not clear, but geniuses do not think like ordinary mortals. Maybe in some very closed archives there is an explanation, and someday they will open it. And if Stalin did not trust such thoughts with paper and kept it in his head, this went with Stalin to a place from which, unfortunately, they did not return. But what was needed was obvious. Zhukov had many failures, such that Stalin shot him for less, but he got it. And the fact that in Germany junked not even by trucks, but by wagons, also came down. Do not consider the appointment of the commander of the Odessa district for punishment.
    But everything that he did after the death of Stalin, history will not forgive. First of all, a military coup on June 26, 1953 and the assassination of Beria. And the fact that, along with Khrushchev, heaped a bunch of excrement on the grave of Stalin. Well, Khrushch’s support at the plenum, when Stalin’s comrades-in-arms Molotov, Malenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov, who joined them, tried, in a completely legal way, to dismiss Khrushch in 1957, also of the kind of military coup that removed the majority of the Politburo from power under the threat of military force. And how much less harm would Khrushchev cause the country if it had been removed in 1957, 7 years before it was removed anyway in 1964!
    And the fact that Khrushchev soon sent Zhukov to Yugoslavia, where he left as the all-powerful narshal, defense minister, and a member of the Politburo, and returned as a retired marshal with a uniform stained by the Central Committee’s decision on Zhukov’s guilt of “lowering the level of party political work,” this is a grin of history.
    1. AAK
      AAK April 15 2020 08: 53 New
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      I completely agree, colleague! Decent and objective
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  • 7,62h54 April 15 2020 08: 52 New
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    The monument to Zhukov at Red Square was cut by his own, citizens of the Russian Federation. Or were they agents of the State Department? Punishment anyone suffered?
  • itarnmag April 15 2020 09: 45 New
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    By the way, in the post-war film "Stalingrad" about Zhukov, not a single word is said at all - only Stalin and Vasilevsky
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  • fuxila April 15 2020 10: 41 New
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    Quote: Octopus
    Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))

    For a site where most commentators are sincerely convinced that the USSR was ruined by the traitor Gorbachev (a superpower with the strongest intelligence agencies!), This is a very excellent result!
  • Yury Siritsky April 15 2020 11: 26 New
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    Unfortunately, the start of denigrating our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the Gorbachev era.
    1. Revolver April 15 2020 18: 26 New
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      Quote: Yuri Siritsky
      Unfortunately, the start of denigrating our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the Gorbachev era.

      No, the start of the blackening of our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the times of Khrushchov. Who piled excrement on Stalin’s grave? Who meanly killed Beria and everyone, including his own, put dogs on him? And comrade Zhukov, too, personally put a paw to this all.
  • zenion April 15 2020 13: 51 New
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    I can also notice the times of the mid 70s of the last century, whoever I asked about Zhukov, because there were his memoirs, from the tankman to the infantryman everyone said - he came, so our blood will spill. For the sake of pleasure, he will drive on machine guns and guns without regard to losses. But they talked about Rokossovsky - he felt sorry for the soldier, but he did not spare the shells. Stalin knew that Zhukov would not spare anyone, because of the fault of 1941. After all, he conducted military exercises and went on the offensive in the way the Germans went, but for some reason he was waiting for them in Ukraine.
  • Old Horseradish April 15 2020 15: 23 New
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    And why did they shoot Pavlov and his red commanders? For the fact that he carried out the orders of Stalin and Zhukov? And how many millions of rifles and other weapons got to the Germans on the border in 1941? And the surrender of 3,5 million people in 1941? Is this great planning? After all, he was the chief of the General Staff. Although, in fairness, it is worth noting that Stalin and his closest associates, Zhukov, carried out their orders.
    1. strannik1985 April 15 2020 15: 53 New
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      Why shoot Pavlov and his reds

      Not why, but for what. For the loss of Minsk.
      And yes, it was necessary to attack first.
      1. Old Horseradish April 15 2020 16: 07 New
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        Quote: strannik1985
        For the loss of Minsk.

        Why didn’t they shoot Zhukov “for the loss of Minsk”?
        1. strannik1985 April 15 2020 16: 12 New
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          Why then

          Then you need to plant the entire NPO in bulk and GKO up to and including Stalin.
          1. ser56 April 15 2020 17: 15 New
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            Quote: strannik1985
            When you need to plant the entire NPO in bulk and GKO

            or anyone, but the IVS turned the arrows on the "traitors", and he remained not guilty ... request
            and still what
            1. strannik1985 April 15 2020 17: 24 New
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              or nobody

              In what? The fact that he did not want to attack Germany ???
              1. ser56 April 15 2020 17: 35 New
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                Quote: strannik1985
                In what?

                corny - that the Red Army did not meet an organized enemy! There were enough forces and means ...
                Quote: strannik1985
                didn’t want to attack Germany ???

                1) if it’s not a secret - why not attack Germany if there is no other way?
                2) a hit in Hitler’s back in mid-May 1940 would save 20 million Soviet citizens — is that not enough for you? And the beginning of the French campaign of conspiracy in the West could no longer be, but the prospect of being left face to face with Hitler became real ... hi This is to the question of the genius of temporary detention facilities, in a similar situation in 1914, Russians began to attack ...
                1. strannik1985 April 16 2020 05: 19 New
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                  There were enough forces and means

                  Unfortunately, no.
                  1) if not a secret, why not

                  Stalin did not know that he had no other choice. Especially in May 1940. It has recently become clear that the level of training of all the Red Army infantry must be urgently pulled up, there are no mobile troops as such, the Air Force is under reorganization, the aviation and tank industries are similar. Moreover, the French and British are not friends at all to us, our entry into the war does not mean at all that we will become allies.
                  1. ser56 April 16 2020 12: 32 New
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                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Unfortunately, no.

                    another unproven mantra - tell me again that the tanks were outdated ... bully
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Stalin did not know that he had no other choice.

                    this is a commonplace strategy ... request I agree that in this ITT there was a layman, so the defeat of 1941 was a consequence of this request
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    that the training level of the entire infantry of the Red Army needs to urgently be tightened, there are no mobile troops as such, the Air Force

                    not too lazy to repeat nonsense? the army is always in such a process ... by the way - why for 20 years of peacetime the Red Army was not brought to a reasonable state? Whose fault ?
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    the British are not friends at all to us, our entry into the war does not mean at all that we will become allies.

                    are you so blinkered? where does the category of friends? The enemy of my enemy is my ally a priori ... request
                    1. strannik1985 April 16 2020 12: 45 New
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                      another unproven

                      Count echelons, nothing is simpler.
                      this is commonplace

                      Politicians, in the summer of 1939, the British and French clearly showed their intentions, i.e. in a possible conflict, the USSR can rely only on itself.
                      not too lazy to repeat nonsense?

                      A mobile association was created as a mechanized corps for the first time, exactly since June 1940. The war without mechanized corps is a repetition of the fall of 1941.
                      The military theorists are to blame, the normal process, the French were similar, much worse among the British and Americans.
                      The enemy of my enemy

                      In terms of??? Let the Germans go to Moscow so that the so-called allies are afraid of the possible defeat of the USSR and begin to provide assistance? And what is the positive meaning of the strategy?
                      1. ser56 April 16 2020 13: 04 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Count echelons, nothing is simpler.

                        count ur, tanks, etc hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Politicians, in the summer of 1939, the British and French clearly showed their intentions, i.e. in a possible conflict, the USSR can rely only on itself.

                        1) Far from it - they simply did not believe the USSR after the Brest Peace ...
                        2) we are talking about May 1940 - the situation is different - there is a war in the West ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        mobile association as a mechanized corps was created for the first time

                        learn the history of the Red Army - corps since 1932
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The war without mechanized corps is a repetition of the fall of 1941.

                        nonsense, we have 9KK, with s28 tanks in each ... and the German has 20 hastily formed divisions in the East and without tanks / planes request

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        In terms of??

                        direct - Churchill on June 22 proclaimed an alliance with the USSR, in May 40 it was the same ...

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        And what is the positive meaning of the strategy?

                        Removes illusions! Potentials are important, not intentions - i.e. words ... request
                      2. ser56 April 16 2020 13: 04 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        s28

                        128 - an eyepiece request
                      3. strannik1985 April 16 2020 13: 21 New
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                        count ur, tanks, etc.

                        Stupidity, it makes no sense to consider armament in non-mobilized divisions in the RPM throughout the territory of western military units. Even the cover armies were located with regiments and battalions at a distance of up to 60 (some up to 100 km) from the border (for example, the 5th KOVO army).
                        1) Far from it

                        What is the difference what are the reasons? They themselves do not want to fight, even the closest ally leaked.
                        teach

                        Mutually. This compound, an analogue of the division.
                        nonsense

                        Wrong look laughing KK and in the summer of 1941 flashed very relatively. The German AK (mot) is not only tanks, three divisions of field artillery regiments and 3-4 corps divisions from 105-mm guns to 210-mm mortars. The western front will freeze again in a strange war, and the spacecraft will have to fight to the fullest. If there is a suddenness, the barrier will be swept away, and then?
                        direct

                        And he praised the Soviet soldier for his stamina good The first relatively massive deliveries on LL began only on December 28, 1941.
                      4. ser56 April 16 2020 14: 12 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Stupidity, it makes no sense to consider armament in non-mobilized divisions in the RPM throughout the territory of western military units. Even the cover armies were located with regiments and battalions at a distance of up to 60 (some up to 100 km) from the border (for example, the 5th KOVO army).

                        Quote: ser56
                        in that the Red Army did not meet an organized enemy! There were enough forces and means ...

                        I strongly recommend not to lose the thread of the conversation ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        What is the difference what are the reasons? They themselves do not want to fight, even the closest ally leaked.

                        1) the reasons are important so that there are no bald accusations. Just a question - would you trust the partner who betrayed you? hi
                        2) It is not for us to reproach England - it fought one-on-one for a year with the Germans and with dignity ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Mutually. This compound, an analogue of the division.

                        MK structure is another question ... bully said nonsense - do not translate the arrows ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        KK and in the summer of 1941 flashed very relatively.

                        on the defensive, but on the offensive in winter - on the contrary! And Dovator and Belov ...
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The German AK (mot) is not only tanks, three divisions of field artillery regiments and 3-4 corps divisions from 105-mm guns to 210-mm mortars.

                        you're funny, take offense at the rubbish and write it again ... request All these miracle corps were in France, they must be taken out of the battle, loaded, transferred, unloaded ... and where will the Red Army KK be at that time? request I think on the Vistula bully Yes, and a stupid question - where is the son-in-law fuel, engines, outfits, etc. Everything was spent in France, no trophies, Romania is not an ally ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        If there is a suddenness, the barrier will be swept away, and then?

                        and then the mobilization of the Red Army, and without loss of mob reserves bully to be exact, Hitler’s generals will strangle ...
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        only began on December 28, 1941.

                        "Dervish convoy left Iceland on August 21, 1941; arrived in Arkhangelsk on August 31"
                        learn factology ... before the time you indicated, 5 Arctic convoys arrived
                      5. strannik1985 April 16 2020 14: 45 New
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                        highly recommend

                        Can you tell me what help, for example, can be provided to combatants in the Brest region by 4 SDs located in Minsk and its environs?
                        1) Reasons are important

                        They have nothing to do with the desire to fight in 1939-1940. The allies do not want to fight, even to the point of "suicide" (the situation by May 1940).
                        MK structure

                        The corps of 1932 is a compound, the corps of 1941 is a union (3 divisions). You expose yourself as a fool, not me.
                        you are funny

                        This is you funny. First, aircraft will be thrown against the advancing parts of the spacecraft, taking into account the organizational structure of the Air Force and the depth of the offensive, at best there will be a struggle over air cavalry over the cavalry, in the worst, the aviators will lag behind with all the consequences. 20-30 divisions will be left against the allies, and the rest will be sent against us.
                        convoy dervish

                        What exactly in the phrase "relatively massive" do not you understand?
                      6. ser56 April 16 2020 16: 14 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Do not tell me what help

                        1) bast-bast, start from the beginning ... bully
                        2) I’m talking about this - the unorganized entry of the Red Army into the war ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        They have nothing to do with the desire to fight in 1939-1940.

                        I repeat, the British fought when we had a friendship with Hitler ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The corps of 1932 is a compound, the corps of 1941 is a union (3 divisions). Myself a fool expose, not me.

                        1) You are illiterate in military affairs request
                        2) Unification is an ARMY and higher .. request
                        "Corps - large military compoundconsisting of other formations (divisions, brigades), as well as units and subunits of various branches of the armed forces. "
                        3) I do not expect an apology, I presume in advance that you are not raised hi

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        20-30 divisions will be left against the allies, and the rest will be sent against us.

                        everything is clear with you - you do not understand anything in logistics ... bully
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        What exactly in the phrase "relatively massive" do not you understand?

                        what about? hi
                        Dervish - 6TP, PQ-1 - 11t, PQ-2 - 7t, PQ-3 - 8t, PQ-4 - 8t ... total 40t, roughly 200 tons of cargo - a trifle? bully
                      7. strannik1985 April 16 2020 16: 38 New
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                        1) bast

                        Without a desire to attack, it could not have been otherwise; on the other side of the border, until April-May 1941, it was the same.
                        I repeat

                        Because Hitler went from a strange war to a normal one. The Germans started, not the British.
                        Association is an ARMY

                        And what is a tank army arr. 1943-1945, are you our multi-literate? laughing
                        everything is clear with you

                        The fact that in Germany and Poland the railway network is better than in the USSR ???
                        200 000 tons of cargo

                        Against the background of the advance for the first three weeks of the war by 445-627 km, the loss of 2/3 of weapons, 52 million shells and mines for six months of the war is a trifle.
                      8. ser56 April 16 2020 16: 42 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        you are our literate

                        Quote: ser56
                        I assume in advance that you are not raised

                        I don’t see any reason to discuss further - you don’t know anything and don’t want to study ... request
                      9. strannik1985 April 16 2020 16: 49 New
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                        to debate

                        What a pity, but I thought you would tell me what the similarities between the mechanized corps arr. 1932 and 1940 laughing
                      10. ser56 April 16 2020 17: 04 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        what is the similarity of the mechanized corps

                        corny is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough ... request
                      11. strannik1985 April 16 2020 17: 12 New
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                        corny

                        And the fact that one of the three brigades consists, and the other of the three divisions (like the TA sample 1945) does not bother you ???
                      12. ser56 April 16 2020 17: 23 New
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                        no, brigades are also formations ... request be surprised, but in WWII the corps and the army could consist of 5 divisions at different times - see the article about the assault on Poznan ... request
                        in addition, in the Red Army there was an old rule - mechanized troops have bonuses for command due to the name one step ahead of the strength - a lot of equipment.
                      13. strannik1985 April 16 2020 17: 31 New
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                        no, brigades are also formations ...

                        If it has separate battalions, with a banner and other crap. Administratively, not as much as possible. Attention is the question: why did you equalize MK model 1932 and 1940 according to possibilities? wink
                      14. ser56 April 16 2020 17: 54 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        e in than the similaritiesabout mechanized corps arr. 1932 and 1940 laughing

                        Quote: ser56
                        it is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough.

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        why did you equalize MK arr. 1932 and 1940 according to possibilities?

                        mow under a sharpie? bully opportunities and challenges are different ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        If it has separate battalions, with a banner and other crap.

                        nonsense ... a priori formations brigade ... the last part is a regiment, the last part is a corps ..

                        it’s boring with you - I didn’t hire you to teach, good luck ... wink
                      15. strannik1985 April 16 2020 18: 27 New
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                        mow under a sharpie?

                        Well you, this is your privilege wink
                        A mobile group can be anything, up to a rifle regiment on attached cars. First of all, MK 1940 from 1932 is distinguished by opportunities, you are our competent laughing
                        delirium

                        You have in ... education. Tell us how the motorized rifle regiment differs from the MSBr whose battalions are not separate? laughing
                      16. ser56 April 16 2020 18: 39 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Moving group

                        Quote: ser56
                        it is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough.

                        you are stupid but arrogant ... request
                      17. strannik1985 April 16 2020 18: 43 New
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                        You're stupid

                        Of course, a first-grader student.
                        Difference of SMEs from SMEs explain "smart"? laughing
                      18. ser56 April 16 2020 19: 08 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The difference between SMEs and SMEs explain "smart"

                        what for? you are an ordinary, not trained, you need a drill and charters ...
                      19. strannik1985 April 16 2020 19: 10 New
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                        What for?

                        Believe me, a discussion of my humble personality will not close your ignorance of the materiel. Many thanks good
                      20. ser56 April 16 2020 20: 17 New
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                        Quote: strannik1985
                        your ignorance of materiel will not close.

                        you have solid gaps even at this level request The structure and staffing of the troops have nothing to do with the material part ... request
                      21. ccsr April 17 2020 11: 47 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        The structure and staffing of the troops have nothing to do with the material part ...

                        There is no need to lie "expert" - in the report card to the state just all the weapons and equipment are registered. Why are you lying about something you don’t know at all?
                      22. ser56 April 17 2020 15: 24 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        in the report card to the state just all the weapons and equipment are registered.

                        Does the time sheet relate to the description of the technique? do you have a self-prop, politruk? bully
                      23. ccsr April 17 2020 17: 38 New
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                        Quote: ser56
                        Does the time sheet relate to the description of the technique?

                        You will always remain a jacket, because strannik1985 Speaking about materiel, I had a completely different meaning, and everyone who served in the army immediately understood what he meant by these words. And only you, because of the simplicity of your soul, did not catch the sarcasm in his words - burn on about everything you know, but do not try to impress those who understand what is at stake. He didn’t talk about the description of the technique — you demonstrated your ignorance. By the way, it is the new equipment and armament that can lead to the change of states - “learn the materiel,” now I tell you this to understand how all this is interconnected.
  • ccsr April 16 2020 18: 44 New
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    Quote: ser56
    1) You are illiterate in military affairs
    2) Unification is an ARMY and higher ..
    "The corps is a large military unit, consisting of other units (divisions, brigades), as well as units and subunits of various branches of the armed forces."


    I don’t know where your fount of wisdom is located, but there is a Soviet military encyclopedia that clearly defines the corps as
    Operational Tactical Association
    Operational-tactical or higher tactical associations in wartime can be part of combined-arms armies or air defense armies, army groups or the front. In peacetime, they are part of the military districts. An operational-tactical association consists of formations and units of various branches of the armed forces (forces), special forces and services of the same type of armed forces; it is designed to carry out operational-tactical and tactical tasks, usually as part of an operational or operational-strategic association, and independently in certain operational areas of small capacity. During the Second World War, the tactical associations included army, mechanized and cavalry corps, etc..

    Soviet military encyclopedia. T. 5, 1978, p. 680
  • vik669 April 15 2020 18: 17 New
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    Judging by the comments, they shot and such commentators and judges were not born at all times!
  • Lekz April 16 2020 01: 52 New
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    That's exactly the exact opposite. Pavlov was shot because, contrary to the General Staff directive of June 18, 1941, he did not put the troops on alert. He did not follow the order. Everything else that was incriminated to him was a consequence of this. With the defeats of 1941, that is, with what to compare. These are Dunkirk, Paris, Pearl Harbor and the other "successes" of future allies in 1940-1941.
  • zenion April 17 2020 13: 39 New
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    For three months, Stalin did not intervene in the command of the General Staff. But Stalin was the Chairman of the Council of Ministers and, as the main one in the USSR, he wanted to know what was going on with the military. But no information reached him until he took command and created the GKO.
  • Cer59 28 June 2020 22: 14 New
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    Pavlov was arrested by personal order of Zhukov. or rather a violation of the order on the transition to defense. Pavlov attacked and flooded.
    https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru дутая слава жука. читай
  • begemot20091 April 15 2020 15: 28 New
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    Quote: Sea Cat
    Do a favor, poke your drinking companions. What nonsense and stamps are you talking about, great expert on the history of your own country? Is this Stalin nonsense ?! Rokossovsky stamp? !!! Well, well, you will go far, I would say where, but there is no desire to go down to your level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Xqvy1jqio
  • ser56 April 15 2020 17: 13 New
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    Article superficial eulogy ... request
    1) GKZh’s guilt for the defeat of 41g is large, he was the third in the hierarchy after the temporary detention center and Tymoshenko, partially recognized by him in his memoirs
    2) The GKZh is not the only Marshal of Victory - at one time he was removed and sent to Odessa for excessive bullying of his merits, and not by the Democrats, but by the IVS ..
    3) As for victories, then under his leadership there were terrible defeats - for example, the operation Mars ... request .
    1. Revolver April 15 2020 18: 45 New
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      Quote: ser56
      at one time he was removed and sent to Odessa for excessive bulging of his merits, and not by the democrats, but by the IVS ..

      Not for the protrusion of merit, but for the banal looting. Read the lists of “unaccounted for” trophies at Zhukov’s dacha, from antiques and books in German, to lingerie and bicycle pumps. This despite the fact that Zhukov in German knew less than a soldier's phrasebook, and no one had ever seen him on a bicycle. Wagons drove! Because he could, because the marshal and the lump in general. A private soldier for a watch taken from a killed German could give a penalty battalion.
      The protrusion of merit began after 1953, when the whole country and the whole world tried to convince that the genius commander Zhukov won the war under the strict political and party leadership of Khrushchov. And Stalin, they say, at best did not interfere, but at worst finally interfered.
      1. ser56 April 15 2020 20: 18 New
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        Quote: Nagan
        Not for the protrusion of merit, but for the banal looting.

        you are mistaken - looting is an occasion ... see the IVS supplement - there is in my message above ... request
        Quote: Nagan
        And Stalin, they say, at best did not interfere, but at worst finally interfered.

        defeat near Kiev in 41g on the conscience of the ITT request , I'm not talking about the gathering by Hitler of Europe in 1939-41 and the defeat of the outbreak of war ... hi
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Cer59 28 June 2020 22: 15 New
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          https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru дутая слава жука. читай
          100 myths about Beria - 2 books to read.
          and then write.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Cer59 April 15 2020 23: 05 New
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      B. V L A D I M I R O V
      D U T A I S L A B A
      Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
      "Memoirs and Reflections."
      https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru
  • vik669 April 15 2020 17: 55 New
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    Marshal Zhukov is not a girl to please everyone but Marshal of Victory!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • 1970mk April 15 2020 17: 57 New
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    a commander who rightfully stands among other great military figures of Russian civilization, along with Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov and Mikhail Kutuzov.

    But Sasha is Nevsky that became a great commander? Pozharsky is also a great commander? Yes you are SICK!
    1. Cer59 April 15 2020 23: 02 New
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      cool down. if you are, then we are not.
  • Kapellan23 April 15 2020 18: 01 New
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    Why hate Zhukov


    He fought against the Russians since 1918.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Free wind April 15 2020 21: 17 New
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    And who hates?
  • Cer59 April 15 2020 22: 54 New
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    And so the younger and dumb generation. to understand the essence of man, one must read what he writes. and while reading "Memoirs and Reflections" no one has seen the tuftology of this person for the time being. I read three volumes of the 90s and realized one thing that I didn’t understand about the war. bullshit. and forgot about this nonsense, if the site on the Internet did not find a pagination "Memoirs and Reflections".
    B. V L A D I M I R O V
    D U T A I S L A B A
    Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
    "Memoirs and Reflections."
    https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru
    and everything fell into place. pea clown, christmas tree, dummy .....
    I recommend that you carefully read.
    tried to verify some facts. everything was confirmed. eh Zhorik, how did you set yourself up .....
  • About 2 April 16 2020 01: 31 New
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    Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov is one of the Greatest commanders in the history of wars. I often talked with front-line soldiers, that is, with those people who were in the trenches and went on the attack, and they all responded with respect for Zhukov.
    1. Cer59 April 16 2020 17: 30 New
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      Dima YOU read the analysis, looked? or like a parrot ...
      1. About 2 April 17 2020 07: 28 New
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        this is my personal opinion, but divine geniuses like you divorced how ... well, you’ll think of it yourself.
  • Lekz April 16 2020 01: 40 New
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    I believe that only persons of equal or greater contribution to history can evaluate the personalities of history. The rest, including historians, can only describe what they have accomplished.
    1. zenion April 17 2020 13: 35 New
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      And the people killed by him on his stupid order have the right to evaluate him? Do their relatives have killed fathers and sons?
  • VS
    VS April 16 2020 13: 31 New
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    "" After the death of Stalin, he got into political games, supported Khrushchev with his authority first against Beria, then helped Khrushchev defeat his other opponents. It was a big mistake. State pygmy Khrushchev could not tolerate such a titan as Zhukov next to him "2

    - Well, enough of this person to sculpt something that wasn’t - NOBODY Zhuko was afraid - neither Stalin nor Khrushchev, and even more so NOBODY could envy the fame of the marshal because IT WASN’T)) Khrushchev threw Zhukov out and BECAUSE IT FIRST supported the group MOLOTOV - on the overthrow of Khrushchev)) And then, realizing on whose side the force rushed to help Khrushchev)) But in the end - betrayal Khrushchev didn’t forgive the second-hand unter)))
    1. Cer59 April 16 2020 17: 32 New
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      he was never a non-commissioner. as well as the St. George Knight. his first order for shot through the Tambov peasants.
      1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky 25 June 2020 16: 28 New
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        Rave. St. George's Crosses of the 3rd and 4th degrees G.K. Zhukov received in 1915, the fourth degree for the capture of a German officer, the third - for being wounded in battle. In the imperial army he had the rank of junior non-commissioned officer. This is a well-known fact.
  • Cer59 April 16 2020 13: 34 New
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    Read. comprehend. understand. since the beetle set itself up, few people could, paginating its nonsense.
    B. V L A D I M I R O V
    D U T A I S L A B A
    http://zhukov.umi.ru/
    Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
    "Memoirs and Reflections."
    BLOWING GLORY.