Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

368
Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

Marshal G. K. Zhukov receives the Victory Parade in Moscow

During the rewriting stories The Great Patriotic War, one of the main targets for liberals and revisionist researchers was George Konstantinovich Zhukov. He is called the "Stalin butcher", accused of lack of professionalism, tyranny, cruelty and indifference to the lives of soldiers.

The purpose of such work is obvious: by denigrating the Marshal of Victory, which has become one of the symbols of our Great Victory (Stalin himself noted: “Zhukov is our Suvorov”), you can pour dirt on our Soviet past with impunity. To preserve and strengthen the unfair order prevailing in the world. To smear with mud the true heroes and great statesmen and military figures, and out of evil spirits, for example, Bandera and Shukhevych, make “heroes”.



The Stalin Butcher


In Ukraine out material by A. Levchenko: “Marshal Zhukov: Stalin’s butcher or hero?” According to the author, the Soviet commander was more remembered for “his mats and executions of his military personnel on all fronts” than for military victories. Georgy Konstantinovich is responsible for the catastrophic defeats of 1941, when the Red Army was not ready for war. On his conscience are huge "cauldrons" of the initial period of the war, including Vitebsk, Mogilev, Minsk, Kiev, Vyazma and Bryansk, in which hundreds of thousands of Red Army soldiers died or were captured. It is concluded that the Stalin Marshal, as chief of the General Staff of the Red Army in the summer of 1941 and a member of the General Headquarters, "is one of the main culprits of the worst disaster in world military history."

In the style typical of modern Ukraine, when the Soviet period was being poured with mud and the Nazis and war criminals were praising in every way, it was emphasized that Zhukov sent hundreds of thousands of mobilized Ukrainians to death, they then survived the terrible German occupation, liberated their own land at the cost of huge losses. Allegedly, the Soviet marshal ordered "not to spare" new recruits from Ukraine sent to four Ukrainian fronts. They were considered "suspicious elements" living under the rule of the Nazis. Allegedly, such a high loss of Ukraine in the Second World War among the republics of the USSR (only in the RSFSR more died). Although the reasons for the high population losses of the Ukrainian SSR are quite objective: the front line passed there, the region was under fascist occupation, the Nazis pursued a policy of the physical destruction of the Slavic-Russians, and they "cleared" the lands under the German "superhuman." In Ukraine, one of the most bloody battles of the Great Patriotic War took place, Hitler at all costs tried to keep the region strategically and economically important for the Third Reich.

Thus, we see another attack in the direction of the USSR, the Great Patriotic War and its heroes. Like, the enemy "filled up with corpses." But the Victory Marshal was in fact a “Stalinist butcher” who destroyed hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens and especially Ukrainians.

Crisis Manager of the Red Army


In order to understand all the stupidity and deceitfulness of such “works”, it is simply necessary to read and analyze historical sources and objective historical research. Thus, a military historian, a specialist in the history of the Great Patriotic War A. Isaev “Myths and Truth about Marshal Zhukov” has a very good work on this subject. Alexei Isaev notes that the Stalin military leader knew how to fight, since 1939 he was the “crisis manager” of the Red Army, “the man who was thrown into the most difficult and dangerous sector of the front.” Zhukov "was a kind of" commander of the RGK ", capable of fencing with armies and divisions better than his colleagues."

The headquarters directed Georgy Konstantinovich to a section of the front in crisis or requiring increased attention. This guaranteed the high command increased effectiveness of the Red Army on this site. At the same time, Zhukov was not an “invincible” commander. Often, from an impending catastrophe, he had to go to "non-defeat", establish a fragile balance of power out of chaos, and pull others out of the crisis. The Soviet commander usually got the most difficult sections of the front and dangerous opponents. It happened that he had to order the Stavka to transfer the work he had begun, and others reaped the fruits of his efforts, to move to new sectors of the front.

Zhukov was a native of a poor peasant family, he never had high patrons, but thanks to his talent and steel will he became the most outstanding and famous Soviet marshal. During the war, he became Deputy Supreme Commander-in-Chief, Minister of Defense, member of the highest military-political leadership of the USSR, four times Hero of the Soviet Union, holder of two Orders of Victory and many other Soviet and foreign orders and medals. Georgy Konstantinovich did not do anything mean, did not humiliate himself before the top leadership. Forever remained the people's Marshal of Victory.

Zhukov led the largest masses of Soviet troops and inflicted the largest defeats on the Wehrmacht. From the very beginning of the war, he showed the ability to deliver powerful counterattacks in defensive operations. He showed that it is necessary to attack even in the most difficult conditions in order to survive and defeat a terrible enemy tomorrow. He showed himself as a person who knows how to manage large masses of people. As a military leader, able to make tough decisions necessary to maintain the common good and preserve the power. His life is an example of the highest demands on himself and others.

True, the politician Zhukov turned out to be bad. After the death of Stalin, he got into political games, supported Khrushchev with his authority first against Beria, then helped Khrushchev defeat his other opponents. It was a big mistake. The state pygmy Khrushchev could not tolerate such a titan as Zhukov next to him. Also, the marshal could lead the opposition. Khrushchev with might and main “optimized” (destroyed) the Armed forces of the USSR. Therefore, in 1957, Zhukov fell into disgrace, was dismissed, was deprived of all public and military posts.

Why hate Zhukov


Why is most of the dirt poured on Zhukov, and not on other generals of Stalin? The point is the personality of Georgy Konstantinovich. He is a symbol of the red empire. The peasant son, an iron soldier who went all the way from the royal non-commissioned officer to the great marshal who defeated the Third Reich. A national hero, a commander who rightfully stands among other great military figures of Russian civilization, along with Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov and Mikhail Kutuzov.

American General William Spar noted:

“In the year of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is raised as an icon embodying the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image of this man on a white horse who has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "

Thus, attempts to overthrow Georgy Zhukov from the Victory podium are an informational, ideological war against our history, Russian and Soviet civilization. The blackening of the Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.


Representative of the Supreme High Command of the Red Army, Commander of the 1st Belorussian Front, Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Zhukov during the signing of the act of unconditional surrender of the German armed forces in the Karlshorst district of Berlin
368 comments
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  1. +38
    April 14 2020 05: 09
    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    Entirely and completely agree.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +21
        April 14 2020 06: 37
        Quote: Octopus
        And what does it mean to blacken?

        To denigrate is to enumerate shortcomings (often fictitious) and to keep silent about achievements.
      2. +9
        April 14 2020 07: 03
        Quote: Octopus
        And what does it mean to blacken? Zhukov was a bad head of the General Staff - is this slander or not?

        It's a lie.
        Of course, he had both errors and shortcomings, but, in general, he -real Marshal of Victory
        Quote: Octopus
        But this?
        Comrade Zhukov, when he was the commander of the group of Soviet occupation forces in Germany, committed acts that dishonored the high rank of member of the CPSU (b)

        And this is just a worthless, false accusation of the long-disappeared and self-decreasing lie of just a public organization.

        Let me remind you that all the generals destroyed in the trophy business were rehabilitated , and the charges are recognized false.

        The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev

        True, the politician Zhukov turned out to be bad. After the death of Stalin, he got into political games

        What kind of expressions - "fit", "did not fit"?

        Did he create that atmosphere in the country?

        No, but he acted in it in accordance with his duty of an honest patriot of the country, endowed with great trust and love of the people.

        But he acted and spoke directly and honestly, as befits a military man. hi
        1. -5
          April 14 2020 07: 12
          Quote: Olgovich
          It's a lie.
          Of course, he had both errors and shortcomings, but, in general, he is the real Marshal of Victory

          Accurate cornering.
          Marshal of Victory and a good chief of the General Staff - is it the same thing for you, or what?
          Quote: Olgovich
          The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev.

          Malenkov. Because at one time he tried to attract aviators and Malenkov too.
          Quote: Olgovich
          generals destroyed in trophy were rehabilitated

          That is, we do not believe Stalin, but do we believe Khrushchev?
          Thus, Comrade Zhukov G.K. did not justify the trust placed in him by the Party. He turned out to be a politically untenable figure, prone to adventurism both in understanding the most important tasks of the foreign policy of the Soviet Union and in the leadership of the Ministry of Defense.
          1. +1
            April 14 2020 07: 40
            Why they hate Marshal Zhukov

            Yes, because he is the charismatic Marshal of Victory, a figure whose contribution to Victory, to the grinding of teeth, irritated his envious people both in the West and in the country.

            Actually, the USSR-Pobeda-Zhukov combination, back in 1945, became unbearable for the United States and the emerging belt of their satellites.

            Confirmation of this is the joint Victory Parade in Berlin, to which, to lower the status of the USSR and the Red Army in contributing to the defeat of Nazi Germany, they delegated secondary representatives of the army command of recent allied countries.

            Nevertheless, even they did not succeed ...

            Marshal Zhukov with an iconostasis of awards, a Soviet soldier, Soviet equipment, eclipsed American, British, and other pedestrians - former allies ...

            1. -11
              April 14 2020 07: 52
              Quote: Insurgent
              Yes, because he is the charismatic Marshal of Victory, a figure whose contribution to Victory, to the grinding of teeth, irritated his envious people both in the West and in the country.

              This is you about TT. Stalin and Khrushchev so?
              Quote: Insurgent
              the joint Victory Parade in Berlin, to which, to lower the status of the USSR and the Red Army in contributing to the defeat of Nazi Germany, delegated secondary representatives of the command of the armies of the allied countries.

              )))

              Eisenhower, for which I do not like him, when he learned about the Soviet side’s desire to sign a separate act on the surrender of Germany, he said that he would not participate in this farce.

              However, Truman, at that moment very far from understanding the situation in Europe, insisted on signing.

              So no, you’re very mistaken about lowering your status. It was generally believed that the winners cross out like any China.
              1. +17
                April 14 2020 08: 55
                Quote: Octopus
                Eisenhower, for which I do not like him, when he learned about the Soviet side’s desire to sign a separate act on the surrender of Germany, he said that he would not participate in this farce.

                Prior to this, the allies arranged the farce with the signing of surrender, as According to the agreement between us, they had to accept the surrender of Germany together, and they did it on their own on May 8, which is why the second procedure was already held with all parties present. Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.
                1. -9
                  April 14 2020 09: 17
                  Quote: qqqq
                  according to an agreement between us, to accept the surrender of Germany, should have been together,

                  And Doenitz, excuse me, what, to break? Running to the smart and the beautiful?

                  Surrender to all allies meant a ban on a ceasefire in the West while continuing hostilities in the East. Eisenhower did this from Jodl, frankly, by methods that did not honor him. Susloparov ball acquainted with the paper, all honestly. I would begin to get angry - I would have surrendered in the West, as Doenitz originally proposed.

                  Quote: qqqq
                  Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.

                  In fact, the USSR in the 45th year was not in a position to seriously quarrel with the Americans. And comrade Stalin understands this much better than the Americans.
                  1. +7
                    April 14 2020 14: 38
                    Quote: Octopus
                    And Doenitz, excuse me, what, to break? Running to the smart and the beautiful?

                    Doenitz was not in the position to argue, if the Motherland ordered it, he would run at the same time to the smart and beautiful. By the way, in fact, after the capture of Berlin, the act of surrender was more of a legal nature, I immediately admit that in practice it helped to save a lot of lives.
                    1. -6
                      April 14 2020 15: 06
                      Quote: qqqq
                      if the motherland ordered

                      He orders in Germany at that time.
                      Quote: qqqq
                      that practically it helped to save a lot of lives.

                      Thank you anyway. The USSR, already under a closed door, on May 6 and later, manages to carry out the huge Prague operation by forces of three fronts and put in a couple more divisions. And with the wounded, that's all ten.

                      Stalin did not believe Eisenhower, was afraid that he would change his mind. Aiki’s order, 2-3 hours to go, and in Prague, instead of a monument to Konev, there is a monument to Patton. Its parts at that time in Plzen and Karlovy Vary.
                      1. +13
                        April 14 2020 15: 29
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Thank you anyway. The USSR, already under a closed door, on May 6 and later, manages to carry out the huge Prague operation by forces of three fronts and put in a couple more divisions. And with the wounded, that's all ten.

                        Together with the wounded, about 50, I agree that all of Czechoslovakia is not worth one soldier’s life, but then there was already a struggle for the post-war world, and not the fact that Czechoslovakia, which had left us, did not become the drop that helped keep the West from unleashing new war against the USSR.
                      2. -6
                        April 14 2020 15: 41
                        Quote: qqqq
                        that Czechoslovakia, which had left us, did not become the drop that helped to keep the West from starting a new war against the USSR.

                        Some kind of controversial theory, no? The united forces of the West did not have enough to lime the USSR — tadam! - Czechoslovakia. Half.
                      3. +6
                        April 15 2020 09: 04
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Some kind of controversial theory, no?

                        No contradictions, Czechoslovakia was a very developed industrial region, and the Czechs themselves were very willing to work for those who at the moment owned the country.
                      4. +2
                        April 15 2020 09: 25
                        Quote: qqqq
                        No contradictions, Czechoslovakia was a very developed industrial region,

                        And why not take Germany for a war with the USSR? Moreover, it seems like she is already at war with the USSR? With the Czech Republic, by the way, together.
                      5. +4
                        April 15 2020 11: 01
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And why not take Germany for a war with the USSR? Moreover, it seems like she is already at war with the USSR? With the Czech Republic, by the way, together.

                        It is possible, only with Czechoslovakia it would not work, we then took it. So you yourself gradually approached the topic: why did you take it.
                      6. +3
                        April 15 2020 11: 39
                        Quote: qqqq
                        It’s possible, only with Czechoslovakia it wouldn’t work, we then took it

                        A strange argument, actually. If they took Spain, it would have turned out even more reliable, as I understand it. Monument Konev Pavlov in Madrid.
                      7. +2
                        April 15 2020 12: 00
                        Quote: Octopus
                        If they took Spain, it would have turned out even more reliable, as I understand it

                        It would have worked out, but we must always proceed from the opportunities that existed at that time, but they were for Czechoslovakia, but not for Spain.
                      8. 0
                        April 15 2020 12: 09
                        Quote: qqqq
                        but not for Spain.

                        Yes, that time the Nazis fought back.

                        Well, this point of view is quite acceptable. Soviet Union captured He liberated neighboring (it was already neighboring at that time, but was not before) countries so that he would not be attacked by the Americans (the Americans already care about the USSR, but it didn’t exist before).
                      9. +5
                        April 15 2020 14: 42
                        Quote: Octopus
                        lest Americans attack him

                        Everything in the absolute is raised only by the Sith. But seriously, all the countries through which the spacecraft passed (except Poland, but it was covered up before that) were participants in the German aggression against the USSR, so, for good, they had to be torn three skins, and we allowed them to save face making victims of the German occupation. Here truly: do not do good, you will not receive evil.
                      10. -2
                        April 15 2020 14: 55
                        Quote: qqqq
                        we allowed them to save face by making victims of the German occupation. Here truly: do not do good, you will not receive evil.

                        Benefactors.

                        Especially this "we" is always happy.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        all countries through which the spacecraft passed

                        No. You forgot the countries through which the spacecraft passed to WWII (in addition to Poland, Spain and Asian affairs, there are 5 of them). As for the Second World War, in addition to the allies of Germany, the Soviet government freed Bulgaria and Yugoslavia from their governments. In Yugoslavia, however, she found a scythe on a stone.
                      11. +3
                        April 15 2020 15: 14
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Benefactors.

                        Namely, it was necessary to do with them the same way as they did with us on our territory. For information, Bulgaria was an ally of Hitler, and Yugoslavia was one of the few countries that really fought against fascism; there were no Soviet troops on their territory after the war. Yes, there was a difficult relationship, but this is a different story. And Spain, which side got on your list, do not confuse the actual deployment of troops and assistance with weapons and volunteers (almost the whole of Europe was noted there). For some reason, you in Ukraine think that volunteers are an occupation, but this is just the support of one of the parties in the civil war.
                      12. +5
                        April 15 2020 15: 22
                        Quote: qqqq
                        For information, Bulgaria was an ally of Hitler

                        For information, Bulgaria never fought with the USSR, but at the time of the liberation of this country comrade Tolbukhin was at war with Germany.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        and Yugoslavia was one of the few countries that really fought against fascism; there were no Soviet troops on their territory after the war.

                        Little good can be said about Comrade. Tito, but it’s possible. Therefore, I remembered the scythe.

                        They fought against fascism (more precisely, the German occupation, of course), including (and even basically) pro-English forces, of which Comrade In the years 45-46, Tito quickly shot or drove out of the country.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        Spain, what side did you get on your list, do not confuse the actual deployment of troops and assistance with weapons and volunteers (almost all of Europe was noted there).

                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and planes, with comrade Stalin, Lord, it will never end.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        For some reason, you in Ukraine think that volunteers are an occupation, but this is just the support of one of the parties in the civil war.

                        Yes, also a good example, thanks. But now is not about that.
                      13. 0
                        April 15 2020 15: 31
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and aircraft

                        PMC Pablo .. God forgive me
                      14. +2
                        April 15 2020 15: 34
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Bulgaria never fought with the USSR

                        I agree, she did not fight, but she was an ally of Germany, and this was food and weapons and the population, which made it possible to free the Germans for the war with us, for which she was slightly "chided", but after the war our troops were not there.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Soviet volunteers, with private tanks and planes, with comrade Stalin, Lord, it will never end.

                        Never, one must understand the terms. You can not treat pneumonia calling it a broken leg, the result will be sad. No one in the world disputes the civilian character of the war in Spain in the 30s, except that, as it turned out, Ukraine.
                      15. 0
                        April 15 2020 15: 18
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Especially this "we" is always happy.

                        And yes, WE are their descendants who understand the inextricable link between generations (at least it should be), but you, apparently, Ivan - does not remember kinship.
                      16. +1
                        April 15 2020 15: 34
                        Quote: qqqq
                        WE are their descendants

                        ))
                        No. The descendants of Stalin are very specific people. I would venture to admit that you are not one of them, and, in any case, I do not consider the actions of Stalin to be the fault of these people, much less their achievement.

                        As for the other ancestors, they were unlikely to make any foreign policy decisions at that time.

                        Quote: qqqq
                        but you, apparently, Ivan - who does not remember kinship.

                        I remember, but not proud. And I'm not ashamed. I have my sins. But they are only mine.
                      17. +2
                        April 15 2020 15: 37
                        We didn’t relate specifically to Stalin; what side is it here? I remember and proud, then there really were people whom we can and should be proud of.
                      18. +1
                        April 15 2020 16: 21
                        Quote: qqqq
                        then there really were people whom we could and should be proud of.

                        And how can you be proud of other people, even if these are your relatives? If you were a relative, I don’t know, Valentina Vladimirovna Tereshkova, Hero of the Soviet Union, would you be proud of her flight of 1963? Would you be proud of her activities as a whole, from 1963 to the present?
                        Quote: qqqq
                        We didn’t relate specifically to Stalin; what side is it here?

                        Quote: qqqq
                        we allowed them to save face by making victims of the German occupation.

                        I would venture to admit that neither you, nor even your relatives were asked what to do with the countries of Eastern Europe. To allow and not allow there could be a very specific person.
                        Quote: qqqq
                        I agree, I didn’t fight, but she was an ally of Germany, and this is food and weapons and the population,

                        I know a few more countries that drove Adolf echelons of this and that. And what, free everyone?
                        Quote: qqqq
                        Nobody in the world disputes the civilian character of the war in Spain in the 30s

                        And who is now interested in this at all? If you mean that Comrade Negrin was mishandled, then no, he was not. The Soviet government was able to work with local cadres; this could not be taken away.
                      19. -1
                        April 16 2020 09: 06
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I know a few more countries that drove Adolf echelons of this and that. And what, free everyone?

                        You in Ukraine go to extremes, release those whom you considered necessary and most importantly possible. Personally, I am proud of everything good, including people from the simplest to the greatest, that was in the USSR and I do not turn a blind eye to the terrible events that took place. This is our story and there is no getting away from it whether we want it or not. Pride in their ancestors does not allow them to fall below their level. The banal truth is that without the past there is no future. Unfortunately, you did not understand this in Ukraine.
                      20. 0
                        April 16 2020 10: 40
                        ))
                        I am glad to know that you take the problems of the Ukrainian people so close to your heart. True, I am far enough from them.

                        The idea that the Czecho-fascists and Bulgarian-fascists were able to and were released, but, for example, the fascist, Turkish-fascist and Swedish-fascists could not and were not released, I realized, thanks.
                      21. 0
                        April 16 2020 10: 51
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I am glad to know that you take the problems of the Ukrainian people so close to your heart. True, I am far enough from them.

                        Very close, we are one people.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The idea that the Czecho-fascists and Bulgarian-fascists were able to and were released, but, for example, the fascist, Turkish-fascist and Swedish-fascists could not and were not released, I realized, thanks.

                        You understood everything correctly (you couldn’t, didn’t consider it expedient, the damage from the release exceeded the benefits, etc.), thanks.
                      22. -1
                        April 19 2020 20: 29
                        What does Ukraine have to do with it? He drove Dzhugashvili, because he was stupid, and hoped to weaken Germany and Britain at once, but because he wasn’t clever he liked a quarter of the country's population
                      23. -2
                        April 19 2020 20: 25
                        Oh my God quarantine, schoolchildren frolic, study history and not according to the memoirs of Zhukin and Vnukin, but according to documents
                      24. +1
                        April 15 2020 11: 50
                        How simple it is for you: take Germany, take Czechoslovakia, as if it were some kind of chips.
                      25. +1
                        April 15 2020 12: 11
                        Quote: Alexy
                        take Germany, take Czechoslovakia, as if they were some kind of chips.

                        Empire is such a thing. Hands themselves are drawn to colored pencils and maps of foreign countries, this is internal logic, the inexorable laws of history.
                      26. +1
                        April 15 2020 14: 33
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Some kind of controversial theory, no? The united forces of the West did not have enough to lime the USSR — tadam! - Czechoslovakia. Half.

                      27. -1
                        April 14 2020 15: 42
                        Quote: qqqq
                        All together with the wounded about 50

                        In the typical Soviet division in May the 45th and 5th thousand people are seldom typed.
                  2. +11
                    April 14 2020 15: 55
                    Was, was the USSR in a position that could seriously quarrel with the Americans. The US Chiefs of Staff came to the conclusion that the landing on the Japanese islands and the fighting there could last until August 1946 WITHOUT Soviet assistance and cost the United States 1,5 million soldiers and officers. That is why in Yalta 1945 the United States introduced a clause on the participation of the USSR in the war against Japan. Stalin signed, but on condition, not earlier than 3 months after the Victory over Germany. Why? By that time, the term of the treaty between the USSR and Japan on neutrality, which Japan itself often violated, was ending. The USSR needed time to transfer the army. Why did the Americans need the participation of the USSR? On the mainland there was a million-strong Kwantung army, if the Japanese had transferred it to their islands, the war would have dragged on longer than 1946. The clause on the unconditional surrender of Germany ON ALL fronts was also spelled out in Yalta. When the filkin letter was signed in Reims, on the Western Front, the Germans surrendered in divisions, corps and armies, and the armies of Scherner and Wenck fought against the Red Army. "Eisenhower got this from Jodl, frankly, by not doing him credit." That is, it was a purely SEPARATE surrender, and Eisenhower himself understood this perfectly well and understood that Susloparov was not a figure of the scale to sign such a document. And when he realized that the number had not rolled, he tried to show off, but Truman desperately needed the participation of the USSR in the war against Japan and he immediately broke Eisenhower. Truman knew that in land battles the Red Army would break off the horns of the American and British armies and that the French would not fight against the USSR. It was not in vain that the allies kept the military equipment and weapons of the German divisions near the prisoner of war camps.
                    1. -4
                      April 14 2020 16: 54
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      There was, was the USSR in the position that it could seriously quarrel with the Americans.

                      ))
                      Again.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      The U.S. Chief of Staff Committee concluded

                      There is no such organization in the 45th year.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      WITHOUT USSR help and cost the United States 1,5 million soldiers and officers

                      These figures, one other better, were initially thrown to the press from MacArthur's headquarters (write about the principle more - they will give as much as you need, no one officially signed for them), and then they actively forced themselves to justify CiN. The American side has never connected these figures with the USSR for obvious reasons.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      That is why in Yalta, 1945, the United States introduced a clause on the participation of the USSR

                      There was no "point". There was a torn piece of paper that Roosevelt never showed to Congress. Neither Nimitz nor Marshall had anything to do with her appearance. In the general madness of the idea, the paw of the State Department is felt. At that time Stettinius.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      but with the condition, not earlier than 3 months after the Victory over Germany. Why? By that time, the term of the treaty between the USSR and Japan on neutrality was ending,

                      Lies. The agreement with Japan expired in the 46th year and did not intersect with the victory in Europe, the term of which at that time was not even known at a glance. In an alternative world with sane Roosevelt and / or the State Department, the very fact of the Soviet side’s attitude to its treaties could prompt the former to the right thoughts about the post-war world structure. But, as you know, did not push.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Why did the Americans need the participation of the USSR?

                      Low is not necessary. It was necessary to avoid it at all costs. This was understood by the same Nimitz, but the questions of the war with the USSR were nevertheless somewhat higher than his level.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      On the mainland there was a millionth Kwantung army if the Japanese transferred it to their islands

                      Yeah. The Tsushima tunnel under the Sea of ​​Japan was almost finished.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      The clause on the unconditional surrender of Germany to ALL fronts was also registered in Yalta.

                      So what. Susloparov does not want to sign it - it means he does not want to, well, to fight over it, or what?
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      and the army of Scherner and Wenk fought against the Red Army

                      Well, Scherner and Wenck of the Red Army did not like, what can I do?
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      fought against the Red Army. "Eisenhower achieved this from Jodl, frankly, by methods that did not do him honor."

                      Actually, that was the original German position. Do not bother them Eisenhower - they could have fought for another month. It was he who sold the immediate signing of the act. Actually, one could be grateful to him for this.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Susloparov is not a figure to sign such a document.

                      Whose problems are these? Eisenhower?
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Truman desperately needed the participation of the USSR in the war against Japan

                      Truman, unfortunately, was tightly isolated by Roosevelt from the foreign policy and military agenda. Therefore, the first months he simply tried to follow the course of Roosevelt and the State Department, criminal and destructive. Fortunately for the USSR, Truman’s blindness lasted right up to and including Potsdam. Questions to the USSR he began to appear only in the fall: Turkey, Iran, Greece. But even then he was extremely far from a complete revision of relations with the USSR. It was worth the loss of China.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      Truman knew that in land battles the Red Army would break the horns of the American and British armies

                      The allies won’t stop the victorious Elbo-Rhine operation. They are again! - not ready for a new war. But after the Rhine of the USSR, the end was without options, the ten millionth Red Army would eat it like gangrene, literally eat it, even without military operations. Stalin, unlike the Allies, understands this very well. But on the other hand, Truman is out of his mind, the fart has gone, while they give it, we must take it. He took as much as he could until the bourgeois grabbed it, only the Straits again sailed away. It's not meant to be.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      the French will not fight against the USSR.

                      The French are not in a position to decide something. The USSR will go to the Rhine - they will conquer as nice.
                      In any case, the French - this is 10% of the forces of the Allies, and given the quality - generally garbage.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      It was not for nothing that the Allies kept military equipment and weapons of the German divisions near the prisoner of war camps.

                      Ordinary sketch Comrade Molotov’s fan. In a world with rational Allies, they would either recognize the Doenitz government or already have their own ready-made anti-fascist government, some Speer Mine. And the German police forces, combatants, so to speak, under the command of the same constructive Kesselring, in the amount of 2-3 tank armies. Then yes, then the conversation is different.
                      1. +6
                        April 15 2020 09: 16
                        It's not for nothing that they rivet you a minus, although I don't put a minus. You have some kind of boy's objections. Especially amused "Well, they did not like Scherner and Wenck of the Red Army, what can we do about it?" And this is with German discipline? And this is not much better: "The French are not in a position to decide something. If the USSR comes out to the Rhine, they will conquer them as cute." The Red Army never and did not intentionally violate the line of demarcation anywhere, and if it happened, they immediately withdrew the troops. There was no development by the General Staff of the Red Army of operations for
                        moving beyond the contact line, although some marshals suggested doing this. But the Americans, in the hunt for scientists, designers and documentation, climbed into all foreign zones. Operation "Alsos" There were maneuverable special groups, which were subordinate not to the army command or the OSS, but to the head of the Manhattan Project, General William Leslie Groves. Next: "Susloparov is not a figure of the scale to sign such a document.

                        Whose problem is it? Eisenhower? "
                        Susloparov got a decent brute for this. Only four people were authorized to accept the surrender of Germany: Commander-in-Chief IV Stalin, representatives of the Supreme Command Headquarters, Marshals Zhukov and Vasilevsky, and Colonel General Mehlis. And Eisenhower knew this and tried to lay a mine for the future for a possible denunciation of surrender. Stalin rejected the latter's candidacy, Chief of the General Staff AI Antonov and Marshal Vasilevsky (his memoir "The Work of a Lifetime") spoke in favor of Zhukov. This is what explained the appointment of Zhukov as commander of the 1st Belorussian Front instead of Rokossovsky. But Rokossovsky is also a sin to complain: he commanded the Victory Parade in Moscow.
                        Another pearl: "But after the Rhine of the USSR the end is without options, the ten-millionth Red Army will eat it like gangrene, literally eat it, even without fighting." And what's the difference, would there have been an Elbe-Rhine operation or not?
                        "An ordinary attack by comrade Molotov on a fan." Nu-nu. And Churchill's planned operation "Unthinkable", which even the United States refused to help the USSR in the war with Japan was more expensive for them, and the atomic bomb was already on the way. It was with her that they hoped to intimidate the USSR and Stalin.
                      2. -3
                        April 15 2020 11: 24
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        It was she who hoped to intimidate the USSR and Stalin.

                        Another Truman's personal psychiatrist in the comments.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        And Churchill's planned operation "Unthinkable", which even the United States refused

                        1. The United States did not refuse the Unthinkable. This idea was not discussed at all with the United States. Churchill himself writes about the fact that it is impossible to count on the United States on this issue.
                        2. Before the war, the United States and Britain with the USSR and its fighting hamsters - 5 years. The idea to think in this direction is not that correct, but very late.
                        3. I have already spoken out on the unthinkable in this thread. A very late and poorly developed idea. Wake up Churchill immediately after Yalta, a lot could be done.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        And what's the difference, would there be an Elbo-Rhine operation or not?

                        No, this is what we are talking about. If the Allies manage to prevent the demobilization of the Red Army, the situation of the USSR is catastrophic without any military operations.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        Only four people were authorized to accept the surrender of Germany. Commander-in-Chief I V Stalin, representatives of the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command, Marshals Zhukov and Vasilevsky, and Colonel General Mehlis

                        Let them understand each other. Eisenhower these squabbles are indifferent. Who sent, that and signs.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        But the Americans in the hunt for scientists, designers and documentation intervened in all other zones.

                        You do not seem to be too up to date with the whole story.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        There was no development by the General Staff of the Red Army operations on
                        moving beyond the demarcation line,

                        As if you are aware of what the General Staff and the headquarters of the fronts were doing at that time.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        And it's not much better: "The French are in a wrong state

                        This thesis discussed your desire to wash your boots in the wrong places, it seems.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        didn’t like Scherner and Wenck of the Red Army

                        And what, should I seriously discuss this your thesis? Neither Wenck nor Sherner carried out offensive operations after May 6.
                    2. -1
                      April 19 2020 20: 38
                      all lies when the ussr entered manchuria they already had an order to surrender, and no one would take Japan, they bombed until they cleaned
                    3. 0
                      21 August 2020 22: 15
                      The estimate of possible American losses is greatly overestimated and these calculations were made even before the creation of the bomb. After the bomb, they would simply turn the whole of Japan to ashes. The United States really wanted our participation in Manzhuria (for them the life of every soldier was of value), but this was not decisive for their victory. There were 700 Japanese in Manzhuria. They were recruits and scribes and practically no weapons. The real army was rocked in battles for the islands or transferred to defend Japan itself. And Stalin really wanted to take part in the division of Japan and Korea. What actually happened .. And what the fuck about the war between the USSR and the allies?
                  3. +1
                    April 15 2020 18: 27
                    It’s a pity, you can’t pull out the tentacles alive, I could, for my grandfather, for Stalin, for Zhukov!
                    1. -1
                      April 19 2020 20: 38
                      Oh couch terminator, uh
                2. Fat
                  +5
                  April 14 2020 11: 35
                  Quote: qqqq
                  they had to accept the surrender of Germany together, and they did it on their own on May 8, which is why a second procedure took place even with all parties present. Just Eisenhower poked his face in his own guano, so he was upset.

                  On May 7 (!), An act of surrender was signed at 02.41 CET. Moreover, Eisenhower initially refused to sign this act for protocol reasons. Doenitz sent Jodl, the chief of staff of the operational leadership, and with a written power of attorney with the authority to sign unconditional surrender on ALL fronts. Jodl arrived in Reims in the evening of May 6. During the negotiations, Eisenhower threatened Jodla with the complete closure of the Allied front for refugees, up to the use of force. Jodl sent a radiogram to Doenitz. Keitel answered him, allegedly on behalf of Doenitz. Permission was obtained by Jodl by radio at 0.40.
                  The signing ceremony was scheduled for 02.40. German troops were supposed to cease hostilities on May 23.01, May 8 ... This act from the Americans was signed by the chief of staff of the Allied Expeditionary Force Walter Bedell Smith ... The signing of the act should have been reported officially 36 hours after the signing of the act. May 8 at 3 pm ....
                  Stalin:
                  The agreement signed at Reims cannot be canceled, but it cannot be recognized. Surrender should be perpetrated as an important historical act and adopted not on the territory of the victors, but where the fascist aggression came from - in Berlin, and not unilaterally, but necessarily by the supreme command of all countries of the anti-Hitler coalition.

                  "In response, the Allies agreed to hold a re-signing ceremony in Berlin. Eisenhower informed Jodl that the German commander-in-chief of the armed forces should appear for the final official procedure at the time and place indicated by the Soviet and Allied commands." - wiki
                  Eisenhower was about to arrive in Karlshorst in person. However, Churchill's objections followed ... From the Allies, in the end, the final act was signed by Eisenhower's deputy - Arthur Tedder ...
                  1. -5
                    April 14 2020 12: 02
                    Yes, this is a more or less official Soviet version. In principle, everything is true, the accents and nuances are somewhat controversially painted.

                    Two points are noteworthy:
                    1. Comrade Stalin and Mr. Churchill thought in historical terms, Americans did not.
                    2. Eisenhower did not use his politically more advantageous position to play along with the Germans and redraw the FRG / GDR, if not territorially, then at least in part of the population (moreover, the idea of ​​the FRG / GDR did not occur to him then). Moreover, he was far from the idea of ​​patting the army of the future enemy with German hands for another week or two.
                    1. Fat
                      +6
                      April 14 2020 12: 42
                      Quote: Octopus
                      in order to play along with the Germans and redraw the FRG / GDR, if not territorially, then at least in part of the population (moreover, the idea of ​​the FRG / GDR did not occur to him then). Moreover, he was far from the idea of ​​patting the army of the future enemy with German hands for another week or two.

                      Yes, yes, especially with regard to the German population ... It is ridiculous even to assume that Eisenhower did not know about the Morgenthau plan, which, although it was criticized and rejected, was partially implemented until 1947 ... He did not give a damn about the German population .. .
                      In 1947, former US President Herbert Hoover, after visiting a de-industrialized Germany, wrote:
                      “It is an illusion that the annexed New Germany can be turned into an agrarian state. This is unattainable until we destroy or remove 25 million people from it. " Since 1948, the "Marshall Plan" has already begun to work ....
                      Well, Churchill in April 45 was already planning the "unthinkable" ....
                      "In the opinion of Edinburgh University professor D. Erickson, Churchill's plan helps explain" why Marshal Zhukov unexpectedly decided to regroup his forces in June 1945, received orders from Moscow to strengthen the defenses and study in detail the deployment of the Western Allies' troops. Now the reasons are clear: obviously, Churchill's plan became known in advance to Moscow, and the Soviet General Staff took appropriate countermeasures. "The plan of Operation Unthinkable was indeed transferred to the USSR by the Cambridge Five" Wiki
                      1. -4
                        April 14 2020 14: 43
                        Quote: Thick
                        Eisenhower did not know about the Morgenthau plan,

                        What I love pro-Soviet citizens for (I love a lot) is also for actively addressing the creative heritage of Dr. Goebbels. So Morgenthau’s plan arrived.

                        Eisenhower knew not only about the Morgenthau plan, but also Morgenthau personally. Among other things, he knew (and wrote) that Morgenthau is the US Treasury Secretary, who is climbing into his own business with his absurd initiatives. Which, by the way (this is not Aiki writing anymore), does great harm to the cause of victory, exposing Americans to greater cannibals than the Soviets. Speaking of effective President Roosevelt and his entourage.
                        Quote: Thick
                        In 1947, former US President Herbert Hoover,

                        In fact, the "Morgenthau plan" was leaked to the press almost immediately, not by Republican Hoover, but by their own, in order to silence Morgenthau's activity. Usually called Secretary of War Stimson, also that fruit. It was absolutely impossible to push such a thing through Congress (unlike, I will note, from the opposite in meaning of the Marshall Plan).
                        Quote: Thick
                        and Churchill in April 45 was already planning the "unthinkable"

                        Meaningless. The plan was so absurd that it wasn’t even shown to the Americans. In fact, in June the SES headquarters was liquidated and the withdrawal of American troops from Europe began.

                        On the other hand, the situation with the Unthinkable shows the extent to which Churchill was weaker than Chamberlain as a politician. If Chamberlain, who returned from Munich, did not experience any illusions and launched virtually open mobilization, then Churchill, judging by the same Unthinkable, simply thumped a couple of months and wrote meaningless telegrams to his dear comrade K.U.Chernenko Roosevelt. Basically not coming to consciousness. He began a healthy anti-Soviet policy at least in February of the 45th, at least where he was not tied up by the insane Americans at that time - it could have spoiled the massacre of the USSR. Had he managed to put together an anti-Soviet group of Truman, Marshall and Harriman (the US ambassador to the USSR) by April (all three belonged to the USSR without tenderness by the 45th year) - he could have achieved a lot in the summer, including the liberation of Poland, without war.
                      2. Fat
                        +3
                        April 14 2020 17: 11
                        Quote: Octopus
                        In fact, the "Morgenthau plan" was leaked to the press almost immediately, not by Republican Hoover, but by their own, in order to silence Morgenthau's activity. Usually called Secretary of War Stimson, also that fruit.

                        Actually, the main part of the Morgenthau plan was written by Harry Dexter White, so at least the son of Morgenthau thought. White’s department employee leaked the plan to the press (I bet. He recruited staff to his department ignoring the usual rules for civil servants at that time, checking with the security agencies). And White himself handed over the details of the plan to Soviet intelligence.
                        Naturally, Roosevelt publicly abandoned his intentions because of the scandal ....
                        And Goebels kefir went for little need from happiness ...
                        White’s actions also helped the USSR, giving at least some guarantee against concluding a separate peace between the West and the Nazis. But still, the plan significantly influenced the further occupation policy ... (JCS Directive 1067. It was valid until the summer of 1947)
                        The destruction of German heavy industry (already agreed in Potsdam) continued until 1951 ...
                        Interestingly, after the Bretton Woods Conference, White was for some time the director and representative of the United States in the IMF ... Until June 1947.
                        In August 48, White gave evidence to the Anti-American Commission ...
                        He declared that he was not a communist ... and later died
                      3. -9
                        April 14 2020 17: 28
                        Quote: Thick
                        And White himself handed over the details of the plan to Soviet intelligence.
                        Naturally, Roosevelt publicly abandoned his intentions because of the scandal ....

                        )))
                        Actually there is an opposite opinion. That all this hat was written in the Comintern. Comrade Stalin himself at that time was a bunny, Hitlers come and go, that's all. One way or another, the episode with the Plan confirms that Comrade Stalin understood about PR not in an example better than the vaunted Americans.

                        The Germans, however, did not really buy Stalinism with a human face.

                        Quote: Thick
                        And Goebels kefir went for little need from happiness ...

                        Yes Yes. What kind of raises questions to whom it was all profitable in the end.

                        Quote: Thick
                        In August 48, White gave evidence to the Anti-American Commission ...

                        It is incredibly unfortunate that the work of this commission was compromised. Cleaning the state apparatus from people with good faces after Roosevelt was more important than ever.
                      4. +1
                        April 14 2020 17: 36
                        Quote: Octopus
                        what comrade Stalin understood about PR

                        How Comrade Stalin understood PR clearly demonstrates a replica about the divisions of the pope
                      5. -9
                        April 14 2020 17: 41
                        Quote: Liam
                        How Comrade Stalin understood PR clearly demonstrates a replica about the divisions of the pope

                        )))
                        He said rashly. Forgive grandfather for unexpected directness. You never know what memories of seminary he had left, now all sorts of stories can be heard about these institutions ... feel
                    2. +6
                      April 14 2020 14: 23
                      The Americans were so far from the idea of ​​wanking the Russians with German hands that they left the captured Germans in their military units and subunits in the camps, so that, if necessary, simply give out weapons and go together into battle against the spacecraft. And during the war, a plan "Unthinkable" was prepared about a joint war between the United States, Britain, France, Germany and the rest against the USSR.
                      1. -3
                        April 14 2020 14: 55
                        Quote: Andron59
                        The Americans were so far from the idea of ​​patting the Russians with German hands that they left the captive Germans in the camps in their military units and units

                        With the preservation of personal weapons to officers. And in Northern Europe, especially Norway, the Germans were generally self-governing, until their hands reached them, all summer. Comrade Stalin liked to troll the Allies on this occasion.

                        So what?

                        Quote: Andron59
                        in case of need, just give out weapons and go into battle against the spacecraft together

                        What other weapons? Shovel cuttings, like Mikhalkov’s?

                        Do you realize that the army is not a millionth crowd of people, albeit armed, but an organization? And the mere mention of these unfortunate Germans in the Unthinkable shows what hat this whole project was?
                      2. -1
                        April 19 2020 20: 43
                        But to read Western historians in any way? Or lie? True, a locksmith, a turner or a janitor, lack of knowledge of the language will probably hinder
                      3. -1
                        April 19 2020 20: 46
                        This is I andron, I agree with the octopus, the Germans did the same, they left the allied officers and they had to monitor the order, they answer
                    3. +1
                      April 15 2020 11: 32
                      Yes, this is a more or less official Soviet version

                      No further dialogue.
                      Even this phrase is not necessary to comment.
                      Everyone won, the USSR just stood by.
                      1. +2
                        April 15 2020 12: 18
                        Quote: blackice
                        Everyone won, the USSR just stood by.

                        On the contrary.

                        For many years, the Soviet side regarded the Second World War as an episode and the highest manifestation of the struggle of the Soviet state against its capitalist encirclement, including against the battering ram of world imperialism - Hitler Germany. Other WWII events were considered as insignificant and peripheral. Including the problem of imperialist contradictions between Britain, the USA and Germany.

                        Liberals from the late 80s began to declare that it was not so, that the USSR was a member of WWII, that is, it fought with Germany on the side of Great Britain.

                        The Soviet side was telling the truth (with the exception of nuances), and the liberals were lying. The USSR never fought on the side of Great Britain. The USSR fought on its own, and only on its side.

                        I am always ready to support the Soviet side when it is for the truth. It is rarely possible to do this.
                      2. -1
                        April 19 2020 20: 47
                        Everyone won and the USSR too
                  2. 0
                    April 14 2020 14: 31
                    Thanks for the information.
          2. -6
            April 14 2020 09: 33
            Quote: Octopus
            Accurate cornering

            Do you think I need your instructions? lol
            Quote: Octopus
            Marshal of Victory and a good chief of the General Staff - is it the same thing for you, or what?

            Didn’t get it? belay

            I explain: he is a good chief of the General Staff and he is also the Marshal of Victory.
            Quote: Octopus
            Malenkov. Because at one time he tried to attract aviators and Malenkov too.

            I do not know this Secretary General request
            Quote: Octopus
            That is, we do not believe Stalin, but do we believe Khrushchev?

            We believe the last VALID decision of the COURT today.

            Gossip lover?

            You are welcome..

            And fire me.
            1. -2
              April 14 2020 09: 49
              Quote: Olgovich
              Do you think I need your instructions?

              Apparently, they will not help.
              Quote: Olgovich
              he is a good chief of the General Staff

              Ah, that’s OK. And in your version of the story was treacherous assaultor not already?
              Quote: Olgovich
              We believe the last VALID decision of the COURT today.

              Wow, there are people who believe in the Soviet court. And what kind of trial is it over Zhukov, I don’t remember? Or are you talking about the trial of Abakumov?
              1. -1
                April 14 2020 10: 02
                Quote: Octopus
                Apparently, they will not help.

                Then what? request
                Quote: Octopus
                Ah, that’s OK. And in your version of the story was a treacherous attack, or not?

                In History, it was.
                Quote: Octopus
                Wow, there are people who believe in the Soviet court. And what kind of trial is it over Zhukov, I don’t remember? Or are you talking about the trial of Abakumov?

                1. The decision is not challenged by the Court of the Russian Federation.
                And you need to believe, apparently .... you? belay lol laughing

                2. Let me remind you that I already REMINDED to you:
                I remind that all generals destroyed in a trophy were rehabilitated , and the charges are recognized as false.

                The MGB Minister leading this case, Avakumov, was later arrested in 1951, and shot already under Khrushchev.
            2. 0
              April 14 2020 22: 43
              Andrei, with all due respect to your knowledge, is more inclined to agree with the opinion of the Octopus.
              Quote: Octopus: ... because at one time I was trying to pull aviators into the business


              Felix Chuev. "Soldiers of the Empire. Part 1" Conversations with Chief Marshal of Aviation A.E. Golovanov ":
              ".... The merits of Zhukov, especially at the final stage of the war, cannot be denied. But they do not like him in the army. For his rudeness, they don’t like him ... They don’t like him .. Especially aviators. They can remember a lot .. and Yasha Smushkevich, ADD - this is his brainchild, not mine ... and Vanya and Nina Kopets, do you think, Felix, Ivan shot himself out of fear of a German? .. I know what I'm talking about. Georgy put his hand to many ... and the truth-teller Pavel Rychagov, and the smartest Misha Kaganovich, and Mironov, and Shevchenko, and the hero of long-distance flights, the best pilot of the USSR Sasha Filin ... all the pre-war losses of our aviation cannot be enumerated .... "
              1. +1
                April 15 2020 07: 21
                Quote: Rich
                Andrei, with all due respect to your knowledge, is more inclined to agree with the opinion of the Octopus.
                Quote: Octopus: ... because at one time I tried to pull in case aviators

                hi
                1. The octopus writes completely about ANOTHER is the so-called. 1946 aviation business as a result of which in the spring of 1946 the leaders of the aviation industry and the command of the USSR Air Force were arrested.

                Smushkevichi and pr-destroyed in the war and before the war.
                Quote: Rich
                Many can recall him .. and Yasha Smushkevich, ADD is his brainchild, and not mine ... and Vanya and Nina Kopets, do you think Felix, Ivan shot himself from fear of a German? ..I know what I'm talking about. Then George put a hand to many .. and the truth-seeker Pavel Rychagov, and the smartest Misha Kaganovich, and Mironov, and Shevchenko, and the hero of long-distance flights, the best pilot of the USSR Sasha Filin ...all the pre-war losses of our aircraft cannot be listed.... "


                Let this remain on Golovanov’s conscience: to the Tukhachevsky, Vavilov, Tupolev, Rykov, Tolmachev, etc. etc., too ..... George put a hand?

                And our losses before the war, indeed, can’t be listed: the huge damage of engineers, commanders, writers, teachers, peasants and workers.
                And it was Zhukov who sought the restoration of justice in relation to the repressed military.
                1. +2
                  April 15 2020 07: 35
                  . The octopus writes completely about ANOTHER is the so-called. The aviation business of 1946, as a result of which in the spring of 1946 the leaders of the aviation industry and the command of the USSR Air Force were arrested.

                  My puncture. I got lost in dates. request
                  1. +2
                    April 15 2020 09: 35
                    Here for this respect. Admitting a mistake requires considerable courage.
                2. +4
                  April 15 2020 12: 19
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Let this remain on Golovanov’s conscience: to the Tukhachevsky, Vavilov, Tupolev, Rykov, Tolmachev, etc. etc., too ..... George put a hand?

                  A well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great people was instilled into me by several retired colonels who went through the war in small valleys, but ended their service in the General Staff and realized much of those events already on the basis of their service. As a rule, they did not disregard all the memoirs that appeared at that time, and after reading, they exchanged their opinions. I can say that they did not have admiration for the memoirs of Zhukov or Golovanov - they noticed where the authors are engaged in settling accounts, and where they distort the situation, as is the case with the same cases of aviators, which Zhukov certainly had nothing to do with before the war. So it’s better to study history from documents — it will be easier to avoid bias in evaluating those events. Although not everything is true in documents ...
                  1. -2
                    April 15 2020 12: 48
                    Quote: ccsr
                    A well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great people was instilled into me by several retired colonels who went through the war in small valleys, but ended their service in the General Staff and realized much of those events already on the basis of their service. As a rule, they did not disregard all the memoirs that appeared at that time, and after reading, they exchanged their opinions. I can say that they did not have admiration for the memoirs of Zhukov or Golovanov - they noticed where the authors are engaged in settling accounts, and where they distort the situation, as is the case with the same cases of aviators, which Zhukov certainly had nothing to do with before the war. So it’s better to study history from documents — it will be easier to avoid bias in evaluating those events. Although not everything is true in documents ...

                    I agree.

                    Moreover, in 1941 Golovanov himself was practically NIKEM, had no access to higher spheres and simply could not know for certain.

                    That is, again, gossip, rumors and conjectures are at the heart of ...
                    1. +2
                      April 15 2020 13: 34
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Moreover, in 1941 Golovanov himself was practically NIKEM, had no access to higher spheres and simply could not know for certain.

                      Yes, that was exactly so - he was an insignificant person at that time, and was not allowed to the very top.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      That is, again, gossip, rumors and conjectures are at the heart of ...

                      Many people with an impeccable biography also have such a sin, because sometimes they themselves sometimes unreasonably believe those from whom they receive information.
                    2. -2
                      April 15 2020 17: 51
                      You probably didn't even serve in the army as a private. If, in the vast expanses of the USSR, some at least a little significant emergency took place, then at the formation of the unit, the chief of staff, or who was instructed to read it out at the formation so that this would not happen. In addition, when Zhukov took over as chief of the General Staff, and General Pavlov took his post in KOVO, military exercises were held. Where Zhukov played for the blue, and Pavlov for the red. As Zhukov boasts in his memoirs, he smashed Pavlov's troops into smithereens. And despite the fact that he attacked the Reds through Belarus, which the Germans later did, Zhukov sent all his forces to Ukraine, waiting for a blow from there. What kind of strategist is he, if what and where ... What is his genius to carry out the orders of the Commander-in-Chief? Everyone knew that if a lot of equipment and so on were brought to the front, then Zhukov would be sent to command and keep an eye on. It reminded me of the movie Fanfan Tulip. Where the king asks the marshal what losses are planned? About 8 thousand people. Don't be greedy and plan more losses. This is the same for history.
                      1. -3
                        April 15 2020 20: 53
                        Quote: zenion
                        You probably did not even serve as an ordinary in the army. If in the vast expanses of the USSR some kind of at least a small emergency took place, then later on during the construction of the unit, the chief of staff, or whoever was assigned to read it at the construction so that this would not happen.

                        What did you mean? belay
                        Quote: zenion
                        In addition, when Zhukov took up the post of chief of the General Staff, and General Pavlov his position in the KOVO, military exercises were held. Where Zhukov played for the blue, and Pavlov for the red. As Zhukov brags in his memoirs, he defeated Pavlov’s troops in a bounce. And despite the fact that he attacked the Reds through Belarus, which the Germans did later, Zhukov sent all his forces to Ukraine, he was waiting for a blow from there. What kind of strategist is he, if what and where ... What is his genius to carry out the orders of the Commander-in-Chief? Everyone knew that if a lot of equipment and so on were brought to the front, then Zhukov would be sent to command and keep an eye on. It reminded me of the movie Fanfan Tulip. Where the king asks the marshal what losses are planned? About 8 thousand people. Don't be greedy and plan more losses. This is the same for history.

                        lol
                        And the commander in chief .... from above prompted, yeah
                  2. +2
                    April 15 2020 20: 20
                    Quote: ccsr
                    Well-known skepticism to the memoirs of great men instilled in me several retired colonels

                    In historical science there is such a term - "narrative source" - that is, in fact, the opinion of one particular person, a reflection of his vision and ideas about the situation. And all historians understand that completely such sources of faith do not exist, since:
                    Quote: ccsr
                    where the authors deal with billing, and where they distort the situation,

                    Therefore, to confirm information in a narrative source, it is always checked with information in sources from other eyewitnesses / participants in the situation, well, various documentary sources must necessarily confirm))
              2. 0
                April 15 2020 11: 40
                I especially liked that the author was a poet and publicist. 1998 edition.
                From what first hand did the author get the docks?
                In those years, I could write a book on any topic, sweat from a first-hand view, and no one would ask for it, even if it was a brazen lie, with an admixture of fantasy. Outrageous freedom of speech.
                Especially from the publishing house "Kovcheg".
                From this publisher came out all the "most irrefutable evidence" about everything.
            3. +1
              April 15 2020 20: 44
              Quote: Olgovich
              I explain: he is a good chief of the General Staff and he is also the Marshal of Victory.

              If he is a good NGS, then well, he was removed from this post?
            4. 0
              5 July 2023 17: 23
              Description of G.K. Zhukov from his former boss K.K. Rokossovsky!
              “Strong will. Decisive. He has a rich initiative and skillfully applies it in practice. Disciplined. Demanding and persistent in his demands. By nature, a little dry and not sensitive enough. Has a significant amount of stubbornness. Painfully selfish. Well prepared militarily. He has extensive practical team experience. He loves military affairs and is constantly improving. There is a clear potential for further growth. Authoritative. During the summer period, with the skillful leadership of the combat training of the brigade, he achieved major achievements in the field of combat and tactical shooting, as well as the growth of the brigade as a whole in tactical and combat terms. He is interested in mobilization work and knows it. He paid due attention to the conservation of weapons and horse stock, having achieved positive results. Politically prepared well. […] He is quite consistent with his position. It can be used to the benefit of the case as a diva assistant committee or commander of a mechanized unit, subject to passing through the appropriate courses. He cannot be appointed to staff and teaching work - he organically hates her "[i] [/ i].
        2. +4
          April 14 2020 09: 49
          Quote: Olgovich

          Quote: Octopus
          And what does it mean to blacken? Zhukov was a bad head of the General Staff - is this slander or not?
          It's a lie.

          As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
          And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
          You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.
          Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.
          Without detracting from the merits of G.K. Zhukov, who undoubtedly were, one must nevertheless soberly evaluate this personality. Paying tribute to G.K.Zhukov, I would again, nevertheless, not have addressed him the words that the American general had addressed.

          “In the year of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is raised as an icon embodying the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image of this man on a white horse who has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "
          The icon was not him, but I.V. Stalin. And deserved.
          1. -2
            April 14 2020 10: 12
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
            And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
            You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

            Name the POSSIBLE "measures" in his position, but not fulfilled by him.

            To build new plants who did not bother to build in the 1930s and began to build only in 1940-41?

            This is not the case of the Army General Staff.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.

            certainly, and this reproach is not for him.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Without detracting from the merits of G.K. Zhukov, who undoubtedly were, one must nevertheless soberly evaluate this personality. Paying tribute to G.K.Zhukov, I would again, nevertheless, not have addressed him the words that the American general had addressed.

            “On the anniversary of the struggle of the Russian people with new disasters, Zhukov is being raised as an icon that embodies the spirit of the Russian people, able to nominate a leader-savior in extreme conditions. Zhukov is the embodiment of Russian honor and valor, Russian sovereignty and the Russian spirit. No one can erase or stain the image this man on a white horsewho has done so much to raise his country to shining heights. "

            That is the way it is!
            And it was Zhukov who was an icon and deservedly hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on a white horse and no one else is worthy of him anymore! And he deserves it!

            Unfortunately this is not a lie. It is a fact. And there was a court of officer honor that was attended, I will not list, by front-line generals and Stalin.

            Dirty, roughly cooked up by Avvakumov, FALSE.

            The generals who were shot in the trophy case are acquitted, Avakumov was planted by Stalin and destroyed by the Khrushchev.
            1. +1
              April 14 2020 10: 49
              Quote: Olgovich

              And it was Zhukov who was the icon and deservedly hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on a white horse and no one else is this

              Well maybe, maybe. But Comrade Stalin praised T. Zhukov as he spoke with K. Simonov (do you know this?) - = Zhukov has flaws, some of his qualities were not liked at the front, (you don’t know which ones?) But I must say that he fought better than Konev and NOT Worse than Rokossovsky. =
              That is, if you translate these words, it turns out that Rokossovsky fought better.
              These are the tomatoes.
              Don’t worry, I’m in no way diminishing the merits of Georgy Konstantinovich.
              1. 0
                April 14 2020 11: 41
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                oh comrade Stalin, T. Zhukov was so praised when talking with K. Simonov (do you know this?) - = Zhukov has flaws, some of his qualities were not liked at the front, (you don’t know which ones?) but I must say that he fought better than Konev and NOT Worse than Rokossovsky. =
                That is, if you translate these words, it turns out that Rokossovsky fought better.
                These are the tomatoes.

                Tomatoes are that military commandership is objectively evaluated not by politicians, but by other commanders and other people
                1. -1
                  April 15 2020 09: 19
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  Tomatoes are that military commandership is objectively evaluated not by politicians, but by other commanders and other people

                  In your opinion, Generalissimo Stalin cannot objectively evaluate the military leadership skill of Marshal Zhukov?
                  I recommend - YI Mukhin "War and We".
                  1. -3
                    April 15 2020 10: 41
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    In your opinion, Generalissimo Stalin cannot objectively evaluate the military leadership skill of Marshal Zhukov?

                    Stalin is a politician.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    I recommend - YI Mukhin "War and We".

                    This person is sick:
                    - T. D. Lysenko was right in all the main provisions of his theory, and his opponents were pseudoscientific charlatans;

                    - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

                    - September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in the United States, carried out, according to Mukhin, the US CIA;

                    etc.
                    1. +1
                      April 15 2020 12: 35
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      This person is sick:
                      - T. D. Lysenko was right in all the main provisions of his theory, and his opponents were pseudoscientific charlatans;

                      Of course - sick. After all, it was his students who, under his leadership, brought forth new varieties of wheat, which we still use in Europe. True, genetics also bred new varieties of wheat, only they do not produce offspring. And the Duma, probably also sick, since it banned the import of genomically modified products.
                      Quote: Olgovich

                      - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

                      Those who cultivated chernozem will understand what it is about. Did you process? I am.
                      Quote: Olgovich


                      - September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in the United States, carried out, according to Mukhin, the US CIA;

                      Not, well, if the Arabs managed to tear off their wings from a Boeing in flight, and only then cut it into the wall of the Pentagon, then - yes, they are parasites.
                      1. -3
                        April 15 2020 13: 45
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                        Of course - sick. After all, it was his students who, under his leadership, brought forth new varieties of wheat, which we still use in Europe.

                        Yeah, the whole world, yes ...

                        There are NO other varieties lol
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        True, genetics also bred new varieties of wheat, only they do not produce offspring.

                        belay lol
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                        - The main cause of famine in Ukraine and the Kuban (1932-1933) was the destruction of draft cattle (oxen) by the peasants themselves in the process of collectivization;

                        Those who cultivated chernozem will understand what it is about. Did you process? I am.

                        Millions of peasants are "crazy", yes.

                        And with collectivization, everything "accidentally" coincided fool

                        Remember, by the way, that this is the first famine in the world, not only by the number of victims, but also by the fact that it was caused in peacetime. unnatural reasons.

                        Krasnoyarsk and ... chernozem ?! belay
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Not, well, if the Arabs managed to tear off their wings from a Boeing in flight, and only then cut it into the wall of the Pentagon, then - yes, they are parasites.

                        Apparently, the CIA talked about the torn wings with a fly, on the ear. lol
                      2. +2
                        April 16 2020 14: 25
                        [quote = Olgovich] But there are NO other varieties [/ quote]
                        Well, why, there is, but not for our climatic zones. [Quote = Olgovich] [quote = Olgovich] And with collectivization, everything "accidentally" coincided [/ quote]
                        Of course not. Because the peasants and slaughtered the oxen, so as not to turn over to the collective farm. [Quote = Olgovich]
                        Remember, by the way, that this is the first famine in the world, not only by the number of victims, but also by the fact that it was caused in peacetime by unnatural reasons. [/ Quote]
                        Well, yes, the "Great Depression in the United States", which took away more than 5 million. lives from hunger, also arranged by the Bolsheviks, and also in these same 32-33 years.
                        And about "unnatural reasons" read -
                        = The system of land use that had developed in the USSR in the mid-20s (individual land use in traditional farming), monocultures, and a low level of agricultural technology and the chemicalization of agriculture led to extreme clogging of the fields and widespread development of phytopathological infections and crop pests. Despite the organization of large farms and an attempt to eliminate the backwardness of agricultural technology, grain production in the USSR was programmed for a massive outbreak of weeds, pests and diseases, which happened in 20 in all the major grain-producing regions of the USSR. As a result of catastrophic epiphytoties and epizootics of weed vegetation, several groups of pests and fungal diseases of agricultural crops in 1932, catastrophic crop losses were observed in grain-producing regions of the USSR. Due to the defeat of fungal infections and weeds, the highest level of infection and contamination of the grain, as well as a significant deterioration in its quality, were noted. A quarter to half of the gross grain harvest of 1932 was clogged and of extremely poor quality. In grain-producing regions, from 1932 to 30% of grain was unsuitable for use as food. The most affected were the main grain producing regions - Ukraine and the North Caucasus, where the highest mortality was observed in 70. Thus, weeds, diseases and pests of crops are one of the leading factors in crop failure, poor quality of grain and famine of 1933-1932. =
                        = One of the common myths is the continuation of the export of grain by the Soviet Union during the famine of 1932-33. On the contrary, despite the huge currency shortage to continue industrialization, in 1932 Stalin first stopped exporting wheat, and then began to buy it in Canada, Australia, Persia and other countries. =
                        Well, of course, everything cannot be reduced to "natural phenomena, etc." No one denies the planning mistakes of the leadership. The unjustified overestimated harvest forecast is 32 years old. But do not forget that the country was in dire need of currency for industrialization. Which, subsequently, made it possible to win the war with Germany.
                        You just need to not prejudice these tragic pages of our history. And talking about the purposefulness of hunger is the height of id-io-tiz-ma [quote = Olgovich]
                        Apparently, the CIA talked about the torn wings with a fly, on the ear. [/ quote]
                        No. The fact is that the hole punched by the "Boeing" in the wall of the Pentagon building, with some stretch in size, corresponded to the fuselage without wings. The koi, like the engines, evaporated. Everything burned down, the commission of inquiry said, although the passports of the Arab terrorists survived.
                      3. -3
                        April 16 2020 14: 52
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well, why, there is, but not for our climatic zones

                        For ALL there is.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Of course not. Therefore, the peasants also slaughtered the oxen so as not to surrender to the collective farm.

                        Are they crazy? All millions at once? To kill yourself?
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        y yes, the "Great Depression in the USA", which claimed more than 5 million. lives from hunger, also arranged by the Bolsheviks, and also in these same 32-33 years.

                        She took nothing away. This is the Dumb lie of post-communist propaganda
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        The system of land use that had developed in the USSR in the mid-20s (individual land use in traditional farming), monoculture, and a low level of agricultural technology and the chemicalization of agriculture led

                        Why do I need this BAD?

                        Harvest 32 Mr. worse than 31 years old (STALIN) and ... millions of corpses and mass cannibalism.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And talking about the focus of hunger is the height of id-io-tiz-ma

                        Certainly.

                        This is the result of inability to think and manage.
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        No. The fact is that the hole punched by the "Boeing" in the wall of the Pentagon building, with some stretch in size, corresponded to the fuselage without wings. The koi, like the engines, evaporated. Everything burned down, the commission of inquiry said, although the passports of the Arab terrorists survived.

                        Present the opinion of the commission of inquiry on these issues.
                      4. +2
                        April 16 2020 15: 04
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Are they crazy? All millions at once? To kill yourself?

                        And how do you explain the current situation in Ukraine?
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        She took nothing away. This is the Dumb lie of post-communist propaganda

                        Hmmm. Well, what can you say? He who has eyes "let him read" Of course, if he wishes. But ... It is very scary to part with illusions. You will have to revise your entire worldview. And this is so scary.
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        Present the opinion of the commission of inquiry on these issues.

                        Yeah, I ran away. Those who want to figure it out on their own will find the info. And, most importantly, not from one source.
                      5. -2
                        April 16 2020 15: 13
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        And how do you explain the current situation in Ukraine?

                        You ... what, what's the connection?
                        In Russia, Kazakhstan, the same thing happened. if anything..
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Hmmm. Well, what can you say? He who has eyes "let him read" Of course, if he wishes. But ... It is very scary to part with illusions. You will have to revise your entire worldview. And this is so scary.

                        Clear .
                        therefore, you don’t want to part with what you believed in for decades — no one wants to admit that you were fooled ...
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Yeah, I ran away. Those who want to figure it out on their own will find the info. And, most importantly, not from one source.

                        Those. chatter.
                        Rt
                      6. 0
                        21 August 2020 22: 30
                        All that you were talking about is complete nonsense. Rummage in the internet just yourself. I will only say about the famine in the United States, which never happened and never will. There is nothing in the archives, the press did not write, etc. And the figure was named by a certain Borisov in 2008 based on some of his demographic calculations. And in the USSR from civil to 1958, according to demographic calculations, 130 million people were lost, and according to Mendeleev, even more. 000 million.
          2. +4
            April 14 2020 12: 17
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
            And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
            You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

            Firstly, Zhukov was appointed an NGS only in January 1941, and this alone explains why he did not take place as a talented NGS before the war - the cat wept about his experience in such a position.
            Secondly, only in March 1941 did the NGS Zhukov G.K. became responsible for communications in the Red Army, and until that time there was, to put it mildly, a big mess with communications in our armed forces, led by the people's commissar of defense:
            So, four bodies were directly involved in providing communications to the Supreme Aviation Commission: the USKA, the communications department of the Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army, the NKS and the NKVD of the USSR.
            A similar situation was in the front and in the army. Besides
            of the communications directorates (departments) of these associations, there were NCC field communications bodies (Upolesvyazi at the front headquarters and the field department
            communications at the headquarters of the army) with their units and units. Besides
            In addition, the Navy, Air Force and Air Defense communications departments operated independently
            country. The multi-departmental leadership of communications is extremely negative
            reflected on her condition and, ultimately, led to a crisis situation in which the military connection of the army was
            at the beginning of the war.

            http://vk.sibsutis.ru/articles/2010__(p20-27).PDF
            So Zhukov was unlikely to be able to instantly solve the problems with communications in the troops that had accumulated over many years.

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Compare communications, radio and telephone, in the German infantry division and our infantry. The situation was disastrous! And this affected the first two years of the war.

            I completely agree with this, only for objectivity it should be noted that Zhukov had nothing to do with this, given that he occupied his first large post - the commander of the KOVO - in the summer of 1940. How could he influence this issue in the pre-war army - no way, because his rank in the armed forces until January 1941 was not so significant.
            I am far from thinking of admiring Zhukov’s entire military activity, but I consider it a mistake to blame him for what he is practically not at all to blame.
            His serious flaw on the eve of the war, I believe that he did not insist on the General Staff checking the passage of the combat signal to the cover units, in order to clarify their readiness and the real time of the signal passing to various authorities, which affected on June 22 when some units were taken by surprise.
            Of the strategic mistakes that he made before June 22, I consider only one serious one - he personally did not insist in Stalin’s office to enter cover plans with a short team, and not with a spatial Directive, which was not only brought up for a long time, was also interpreted differently in the districts. He apparently couldn’t forgive himself for the rest of his life, and why this issue was always bypassed.
            1. AAK
              +4
              April 14 2020 14: 49
              Colleague, do not make me laugh with your eulogy ... What else could have turned out to be the chief of the General Staff from a general whose pre-war certification (30s) wrote: "ORGANICALLY HATES STAFF WORK ..." As for Zhukov's nickname in the title of this article, then none of the people's commissars of defense and none of the "Stalinist marshals", no matter what "miracles" they were, were called "The Butcher" ... His main merit is the guaranteed execution of orders "at any cost", for which he was awarded by Stalin. Well, I have not read a better description of Zhukov's military leadership and other "talents" than that of the enemy Volodka Rezun in his books "Shadow of Victory" and "I Take My Words Back" (as well as competent and well-reasoned criticism that completely refutes the content of these books), with which, by the way, the opinion of the late father and uncle, who fought from 1942 to 1945, was quite correlated
              1. +1
                April 14 2020 17: 43
                Quote: AAK
                What else could have turned out to be the chief of the General Staff from a general whose pre-war certification (30s) wrote: "ORGANICALLY HATES HEADQUARTERS WORK ..."

                I know examples when some bosses, in revenge to those to whom they had a personal dislike, wrote more worthless characteristics. Or maybe you do not know what Ustinov did with Ogarkov, which he did not like?
                Quote: AAK
                His main merit is the guaranteed fulfillment of orders "at any cost", for which he was awarded by Stalin.

                We must not forget that Zhukov received his first awards in World War II in 1943 - so it seems that Stalin did not really appreciate him at the beginning of the war:
                In 1943, Zhukov was awarded two orders of Suvorov, one of which was for No. 1, and the second for No. 39.

                Quote: AAK
                Well, I have not read a better description of Zhukov's military leadership and other "talents" than that of the enemy Volodka Rezun in his books "Shadow of Victory" and "I Take My Words Back"

                Maybe you just read a little, if you really think Rezun is an authoritative "writer"?
                1. AAK
                  +2
                  April 14 2020 22: 35
                  Colleague, I have read quite a lot, starting from THREE different degrees of completeness and reliability of editions of the memoir of the victory marshal himself (written, in addition to chapters about youth and the civil war, in the style of the journal "Agitator's Notebook"), the memoirs of marshals and generals listed by colleagues: Rokossovsky, Vasilevsky , Konev, Golovanov, Shtemenko, Zakharova, many other books about the war, from quite objective ones to the eulogies of Chakovsky and Stadnyuk. Rezun mentioned only because his books contain the most complete compilation of Zhukov's deeds ...
                  As for the text of Zhukov’s certification, its lack of culture, lack of education, primarily military (even in absentia did not study at the military academy in absentia, the highest level - KKUKS in the 20s), rudeness and conceit are reflected to a minimum degree. the warlords who knew him wrote off about him much harder, but his fight with Konev at the government reception was just a cherry on the cake ...
                  And as for the awards "already only in 1943", then Stalin in 1941 - 42, and so awarded him above does not happen - he did not shoot, and deservedly so, although in those days many people were put up against the wall (including number and by orders of the most bronze horseman on the Kumir) for much, much lesser offenses ...
                  And what should be awarded for - June 22, 1941? (the chief of the General Staff directly supervises the GRU General Staff and the Main Directorate of the General Staff, organizes the activities of the headquarters of the districts / fronts, communications directorates, and also deals with a bunch of tasks in sheets of 10 small print). For the mobilization of the Nazis? For the organization of strategic defense, as a result of which in the autumn of 41st the Nazis occupied half of the European part of the USSR, stood near Moscow and surrounded Leningrad? For the heroic failure to take Sychevka and the failure of not even one, but two "Rzhev operations"? For being involved in organizing the Stalingrad operation? There is no need to talk about Moscow and Leningrad, there Zhukov's merits are very, very "ambiguous" ...
                  1. +1
                    April 15 2020 11: 53
                    Quote: AAK
                    I read a lot, starting from THREE different degrees of completeness and reliability of editions of the memoir of the victory marshal himself (written, in addition to the chapters about youth and the civil war, in the style of the journal "Agitator's Notebook"),

                    Do not find fault with the texts of memoirs - after all, you should know that in addition to the agreement in the Central Committee, the Chief Military Censor was also obliged to check them and give an opinion whether they can be published or not. So Zhukov was simply obliged to "comb" them, otherwise all the work would have received a stamp of official use, and was kept in the libraries of the Ministry of Defense. Such was the order then, and you should know this as well as I do.
                    Quote: AAK
                    As for the text of Zhukovsky certification, then in it its lack of culture, lack of education,

                    There was such a great politician in the USSR, member of the Politburo V.V. Grishin, so he stood higher in our hierarchy than Zhukov, and behind him only had a steam locomotive school. So this is not a criterion for Zhukov, especially since he had a great military practice in various positions.

                    Quote: AAK
                    And for what to reward - for June 22, 1941? (the chief of the General Staff directly supervises the Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff and the General Staff of the General Staff, organizes the activities of district / front headquarters, communications departments, and is still involved in a bunch of tasks in 10 small print).

                    Actually, it was not Zhukov who had to be punished, but the one who moved him on posts on the eve of the war. The fact that Zhukov was not the best candidate for the post of NGSH, I completely agree, and his fault is that he decided from career reasons to agree to the proposed position, but he could refuse. But apparently he did not find the courage to abandon such prospects, and agreed, which later led to grave consequences.
                    Quote: AAK
                    For the mob reserves that the Nazis inherited?

                    This is the fault of the district command - do not attribute it to Zhukov.
                    Quote: AAK
                    For the organization of strategic defense, as a result of which in the fall of 41st the Nazis occupied half of the European part of the USSR, stood near Moscow and surrounded Leningrad? For the heroic failure to take Sychevka and the failure of not even one, but two "Rzhev operations"? For being involved in organizing the Stalingrad operation? There is no need to talk about Moscow and Leningrad, there Zhukov's merits are very, very "ambiguous" ...

                    Are you sure that everything attributed to Zhukov is absolutely reliable information? I think that you are aware of how many envious people there are of famous people, although I have already expressed my opinion that the output of his memoirs was an attempt to whitewash myself in front of history. That is why there were some things that were subsequently refuted by other participants in those events. But I think it is reprehensible to hang all dogs on Zhukov - that’s not the way to evaluate the Red Army and its actions during the war years.
                    1. AAK
                      -1
                      April 15 2020 16: 24
                      A colleague, the main meaning of what I wrote is that you don’t need to sculpt from Zhukov the icon of the main and almost the only creator of the Victory of our country over fascism (which has become almost the fetish of the current agitprop) and smear his historical portrait with gold leaf of some infallibility ... Alas, but St. George of him no ...
                      1. -1
                        April 15 2020 17: 58
                        Quote: AAK
                        Colleague, the main meaning of what I wrote is that you don’t need to sculpt from Zhukov an icon of the main and almost the only creator of the Victory of our country over fascism

                        With this I completely agree.
                        Quote: AAK
                        Alas, St. George of him no ...

                        As well as from any historical figure over the past three hundred years of our history, except for A.V. Suvorov and F.F. Ushakov.
                    2. 0
                      April 15 2020 21: 53
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Lenin of the Politburo V.V. Grishin, so he stood higher in our hierarchy than Zhukov, and behind him had only a steam locomotive school

                      You do not confuse the party worker and the military a little. What kind of education did Mikoyan or Kaganovich have, for example?
                      1. -1
                        April 16 2020 12: 20
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        You do not confuse a party worker and a military man a little.

                        Here we are talking about the heights of the career growth of a statesman (official) and the dependence of this growth on the education received, because Zhukov was allegedly charged with insufficient education. So, life convincingly showed that even now the president is not a titular academician, but a graduate of the KGB high school, and even with not very long work experience in this structure, from where he left the rank of lieutenant colonel and did not earn a pension. What did you expect from the Soviet nominees then?
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        What kind of education did Mikoyan or Kaganovich have for example?

                        At a certain stage of the career ladder, primary education becomes secondary - athletes and artists in the Duma turn out to be able to "understand" the intricacies of state laws and acts better than those who are borrowed from this all their lives in state structures. It's a paradox, but we have been living with him for many years.
          3. -1
            April 15 2020 10: 06
            Zhukov tried to give up the post of Chief of the General Staff, arguing that he was not a staff officer, but a combatant. The situation in the Red Army with communications (and not only) had developed long before Zhukov and was reflected in 1940 (before Zhukov was appointed Chief of the General Staff) in " The act of transferring the Red Army from the People's Commissar Voroshilov to the People's Commissar Timoshenko. "These problems accumulated over the years (claims against the previous Chief of the General Staff Shaposhnikov) and were aggravated with the return of Western Ukrainian and Western Belorussian lands. , the same communication mainly via air lines, a small percentage of radio transmission of troops and the lack of confidence of commanders in radio communications ... Before the war, Zhukov was chief of the General Staff for 5 and a half months. During this period, even in a division or corps, it is unrealistic to put things in order, and on a national scale especially.
            1. +2
              April 15 2020 12: 05
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              Zhukov tried to abandon the post of chief of the General Staff, arguing that he was not a staff officer, but a combatant.

              And what is his personal report about it? Can you provide this document or a link to it?
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              The situation in the Red Army with communications (and not only) developed long before Zhukov and was reflected in 1940

              I completely agree with this - Zhukov is in vain accused of this, because he no longer had time to change anything.
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              For such a period, it is unrealistic to restore order even in a division or corps, and even more so on a national scale.

              This is known to those who have served for more than one year, and some wretched historians will never understand this, and that’s what they’ve blamed on Zhukov for which he didn’t even have anything to do.
              With the same mechanized corps, for example, the idea of ​​creating and equipping them did not lie on the General Staff, but on the GABTU KA, which at one time was guided by the theory of motor-vehicle conduits, and to which Zhukov had no relation due to his position in the thirties.
              1. -1
                April 15 2020 17: 04
                "And what is his personal report about this? Can you give this document or a link to it?"
                GK Zhukov, "Memories and Reflections", volume one, eighth edition, p. 242.
                "The next day after the game was analyzed, I was summoned to I. V. Stalin. Having greeted, I. V. Stalin said:" The Politburo decided to release Meretskov from the post of chief of the General Staff and to appoint you in his place. I expected everything, but not such a decision and not knowing what to answer, he was silent. Then he said: "I have never worked in headquarters. I have always been in the ranks. I cannot be the Chief of the General Staff." The Politburo has decided to appoint you, "Stalin said, emphasizing the word" decided. "End of quote.
                1. +2
                  April 15 2020 18: 02
                  Quote: Boris Epstein
                  "And what is his personal report about this? Can you give this document or a link to it?"
                  GK Zhukov, "Memories and Reflections", volume one, eighth edition, p. 242.

                  This is just a text from memoirs, and I would like to see his report, i.e. as military people do in such situations if they refuse the proposed appointment with justification of the reasons for the refusal.
                  1. -2
                    April 16 2020 11: 37
                    I also want a lot of things, for example, evidence on your part that there is no such report in the Central Archive of the SOVIET Army. The lack of evidence automatically confirms the correctness of Zhukov. The war is on the nose, there is a decision of the Politburo, what other reports? By the way, I believe Zhukov. When Stalin got excited about leaving Kiev (we are all human beings, it happens to everyone) Zhukov resigned, designed and implemented the Yelny operation. The first four guard divisions in the Red Army appeared precisely on the basis of the results of this operation.
                    1. +1
                      April 16 2020 12: 26
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      I also want a lot of things, for example, evidence on your part that there is no such report in the Central Archive of the SOVIET Army.

                      You threw this fried fact out of a memoir, and you demand proof of the existence of a report from me. It’s not funny for yourself?
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      The lack of evidence automatically confirms the correctness of the Beetles.

                      Not a damn thing - if there was a report, Zhukov would have stated so explicitly in his memoirs and would have found him in the GUK, for he would have been filed in a personal file if the appointment had not been made.
                      Quote: Boris Epstein
                      By the way, I believe Zhukov.

                      And I believe in documents, and not in someone’s memories - the memory of people fails, but the paper outlives everyone.
                      1. 0
                        April 17 2020 15: 10
                        The downside is not proof of the truth, but proof of the absence of arguments. What report? To whom and where, if it is a decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee? The decision (party order) is not to Army General Zhukov, but to Communist Zhukov. Against the decision of the Politburo, Stalin is also powerless. The Politburo, by its decision, managed to overturn the draft Constitution of Stalin in 1936 and Stalin could not do anything. To go against the decision of the Politburo, you need to lay your party card on the table. Yes, it’s really funny from you. You do not see the difference between the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.).
                      2. -1
                        April 17 2020 17: 28
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        What report? To whom and where, if it is a decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee?

                        Do not fool people with their heads - in the army, any soldier has the right to file a report if he does not agree to be promoted to a higher position. When demoting his opinion, this is not taken into account, and even then he can ask a question at the inspection inspection if he does not agree with the decision made.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        The decision (party order) is not to Army General Zhukov, but to Communist Zhukov. Against the decision of the Politburo, Stalin is powerless

                        And he, as a communist, before the decision came out, could explain from the party positions his unpreparedness to take such a position - no one forbade him.
                        Quote: Boris Epstein
                        You do not see the difference between the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (B.).

                        You don’t know anything about how in the army they abandon their posts and resign if they do not agree with the party’s policies - study the careers of Snetkov and Vorobyov for a start.
          4. 0
            April 15 2020 20: 21
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            As far as I know, the beginning is responsible for communications in the army. headquarters.
            And at what level was the connection when Zhukov was in the beginning. gene. headquarters?
            You say - he did not have time to fix it. Maybe. But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

            It depends on which version - in one of the first - it says to itself, just like the fact that the development of walkie-talkies, which were already sorely lacking, was often ignored by the command of the units where these radios were sent.
          5. 0
            April 16 2020 12: 38
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            But even in his memoirs, he does not talk about the measures he had taken to improve communications in the troops.

            What kind of improvement in communication in the troops can be discussed if the most advanced in the air force equipment had it very badly. What then could Zhukov do five months before the start of the war, I just can’t imagine if this was the case:
            "Starting from the 51st aircraft of the 6th series, every third MiG-3 fighter was produced with an RSI-4 radio transmitter [3].
            RSI-3 or RSI-4 receivers were equipped with all serial MiGs. However, the communication quality on many machines was unimportant: due to poor shielding of the engine ignition system and inaccurate metallization of the aircraft the pilot’s headphones created a constant tiring noise through which it was almost impossible to hear the radio message. It came to the point that many pilots simply cut off the headset cords so that they would not interfere with turning their heads. The poor quality of communications negatively affected the losses of Soviet fighters in the initial period of the war."
        3. 0
          April 14 2020 09: 55
          Quote: Olgovich
          Quote: Octopus
          But this?
          Comrade Zhukov, when he was the commander of the group of Soviet occupation forces in Germany, committed acts that dishonored the high rank of member of the CPSU (b)

          And this is just a worthless, false accusation of the long-disappeared and self-decreasing lie of just a public organization.

          Unfortunately this is not a lie. It is a fact. And there was a court of officer honor that was attended, I will not list, by front-line generals and Stalin.
        4. -1
          April 15 2020 08: 20
          but, in general, he is the true Marshal of Victory


          I’m even wondering from what time he began to be called the Marshal of Victory. With a large number of live war veterans, he was not exactly called that. Well, now you can.
      3. -2
        April 14 2020 07: 35
        it makes no sense to rummage through all this. Zhukov is a man of war. in peacetime, such people are lost. they don’t understand him. they are not flexible and this interferes with all. and such will always be merged. under any pretext. so it has been with all people like him at all times. they set him a task, he will fulfill it. and this is his strength. not be afraid to take responsibility and give results
        1. 0
          April 14 2020 07: 38
          Quote: carstorm 11
          Zhukov is a man of war.

          With this approach, one should take and parse his operations from Mongolia to Berlin. Who could do that? Really liberals and revisionist researchers must harness again?
          1. +2
            April 14 2020 08: 29
            it is not necessary. all this has long been disassembled and studied. if you studied at a military university you would know that. Everyone must do their job . Well, if it’s interesting to some deeply civilians, they can easily find any information. the only bad thing is that they perceive it from their bell tower and really do not understand a lot of everything.
            1. +1
              April 14 2020 08: 39
              Quote: carstorm 11
              it is not necessary. all this has long been disassembled and studied. if you studied at a military university you would know that. to

              I did not study at a military university, but they told the opposite.

              Do not remember the author and the name of the book?
              Quote: carstorm 11
              can easily find any information

              Which will for the most part consist of Soviet, pro-Soviet and anti-Soviet lies, or even altistory. The latter, in particular, is the focus of one regular author of the "history" section, guess who.
              1. +3
                April 14 2020 08: 55
                I don’t remember now) but believe me, tactics have been studied up and down. this is not what you thought about. The strategy and tactics of its analysis are many where. you can read the Germans Tipo Guderian and his Memoirs of a Soldier. if you want to find a lot of things.
                1. +4
                  April 14 2020 09: 47
                  Germans like Guderian any number. By the way, another storyteller. The question was
                  a) about the Soviet side.
                  b) not stories to the Oktyabrs, but a full-fledged analysis of operations for adults. Procurement, cards, etc.
                  1. +2
                    April 14 2020 10: 34
                    G.K. Zhukov “Memoirs and Reflections”, I see no reason not to trust his memories. Konev. Rokosovsky. Fishing in the end. in any family kept a huge number of memoirs. I mean the military family. my father wrote notes on them, and then it came in handy. Military Publishing House issued. I didn’t meet them in stores. only in libraries. you can search there.
                    1. +5
                      April 14 2020 11: 10
                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      G.K. Zhukov “Memoirs and Reflections”, I see no reason not to trust his memories.

                      In which edition? And then, pomnitsa me, the text of "Memories ..." hesitated along with the party line.
                      1. +2
                        April 14 2020 11: 45
                        need to study the issue. I really didn’t even think about it. thanks for the question.
                      2. +4
                        April 14 2020 12: 08
                        It is strange if you are seriously interested in the topic.

                        There is an opinion that one of the main crimes of Comrade personally Episheva before the USSR - the destruction of any intelligible study of the experience of the Second World War / WWII, even at the level of specialists. That is, GlavPUR lied not only to others, but also to itself. Naturally, this could not end in anything good.
                      3. +1
                        April 14 2020 12: 40
                        I graduated from college a long time ago. then was interested. Now I remember something, something not. but the basics are driven into the subcortex. I just know what the priority of tasks and the priority of goals are. and I know how difficult it is to work in the system, it’s important, not important.
                        A priority. The Priority Principle is one of the most important principles in the thinking of soldiers and officers in military affairs. If you simply state it, then the principle of priority means compliance with the principle of "important-not important" in various aspects of military affairs and specifically in each situation in terms of importance and degree of relevance for each moment in time. If the Spirit of a man is the center of the energy-informational component of a person, then his attention is a spotlight, a ray of this Spirit. A feature of human attention is that the attention and consciousness of a person is structured in such a way that it is always necessary to separate what is more important and what is secondary, or not at all important and not relevant at a given time. This great feature of attention, a sense of Priority was possessed by all the great commanders, such as Suvorov A.V., Napoleon, Rokossovsky K.K., Zhukov G.K. and many, many other generals and commanders. A sense of Priority, the ability in one’s mind to decompose one’s affairs into more important matters or aspects of military affairs, and into less important ones, is a very important feature and a necessity for any military person.
                        This is the shortest summary of what I know about it. it is this knowledge that actually gives me the opportunity to understand who Zhukov is and what he was capable of. and not judge him for decisions not clear to everyone.
                      4. +4
                        April 14 2020 14: 04
                        Quote: carstorm 11
                        . If the Spirit of a man is the center of the energy-informational component of a person, then his attention is a spotlight, a ray of this Spirit.

                        Nevermind metaphors for Soviet officers. I did not expect this even from Comrade. Episheva.
                      5. 0
                        April 14 2020 14: 10
                        Quote: Octopus

                        Nevermind metaphors for Soviet officers

                        It is necessary to carefully check the composition of the substances in the dry pack and first aid kit ....maybe we don’t know something
                      6. +1
                        April 14 2020 21: 54
                        this is not entirely a metaphor) rather an attempt to explain certain things to people who do not understand them. the whole point is that the ability to concentrate on goals and objectives is not so simple. You can check it for yourself, for example, by solving such a problem as capturing altitude. while the height has a well-organized defense. but your task is not to destroy everyone on the mountain but to capture it. within a day. Let's say in the adjacent lane the offensive begins in the morning and this height gives a great advantage. your actions? You don’t have time to study and search for weak points. you don’t have time to concentrate any serious forces. there is no time to carry out artillery strikes to mix everything there. you just have to capture height. and here the will is needed. to make such decisions for which 99 percent of people are simply not created. and do not be surprised at some grandiloquent expressions) From simple to complex, then reduce all this complex to simple again (the principle of systemic thinking). Everything complicated is not needed, everything needed is simple. (Kalashnikov). all this in a simple life can come in handy if you learn to use it. And the Spirit of a man ... well, if you exclude this aspect from the equation in a military officer, then what remains with him then?) The profession of chicanery more than any other requires calling. This profession is difficult (physically, morally and psychologically), dangerous even in peacetime, requires high dedication, reaching self-forgetfulness. It is much more difficult to leave the ranks of the officer corps than to break with any other specialty. Officer service is associated with many hardships, inconveniences that are not experienced by representatives of other professions. The monetary remuneration for officer labor as a rule does not correspond to its high “cost”, which, in fairness, this labor should be evaluated. A high degree of responsibility, limited civil and personal rights and freedoms weigh heavily on the officer’s soul and require the highest level of consciousness and self-restraint. Not every person is able to carry such a “cross” through life. Everything said above determines the high significance of calling in the officer profession, because, according to M. Menshikov, “..- in military affairs this crazy condition has been elevated to the law and it has been said for 100 years back)
                      7. 0
                        8 June 2020 22: 10
                        To go nuts .... how beautifully said! The current surrenders, to distinguish the important from the unimportant, is the main property of the mind in general. I think that the preservation of this ability in a critical environment is the property that distinguishes people who can become military leaders. In peacetime, such people are dangerous, they seek to turn critical circumstances into circumstances in which they have superiority.
                      8. +1
                        April 14 2020 15: 26
                        Quote: Octopus
                        There is an opinion that one of the main crimes of Comrade personally Episheva before the USSR - the destruction of any intelligible study of the experience of the Second World War / WWII, even at the level of specialists.

                        With the simultaneous "bronzing" of the history of the Second World War. The official history has ceased to be subject to adjustments based on documents found in archives. Which ultimately led to a logical ending - the appearance of revisionists. Which, refuting the easily refuted provisions of official history, called into question the history of the Second World War as a whole, including even true events.
                        However, one can understand Epishev — one must have considerable courage to permit the study of the same Prokhorovka. After all, at the same time you have to question the actions of the whole chief marshal of the armored forces.
                      9. +2
                        April 14 2020 15: 28
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        you can understand Epishev

                        And when did the glossy version of Prokhorovka appear? Is it not under Epishev?
                      10. +1
                        April 14 2020 15: 36
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        The official history is no longer subject to adjustments based on documents found in archives. Which ultimately led to a logical ending - the appearance of revisionists.

                        Something not far from sedition, you know. So you get to the issue of archives, and even to the present military historical policy. Which will end sooner or later guess what.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        After all, at the same time you have to question the actions of the whole chief marshal of the armored forces.

                        God once again helped the Soviet government. If the degradation of the Red Army in this sense took many years, the former Allies lost all remnants of sanity almost instantly. Until Vietnam, they stroked their atomic bomb like the Gollum Ring.

                        Too easy victories have their drawbacks.
                      11. -1
                        April 15 2020 10: 10
                        Not at the initiative or fault of Zhukov. But there is the 10th edition closest to the author.
                      12. 0
                        April 16 2020 02: 09
                        Well, hesitated. What about the late Zhukov?
          2. 0
            April 15 2020 18: 17
            Who could do that? Really liberals and revisionist researchers have to harness again?


            Especially the beginning of the Second World War, because he was the chief of the General Staff.

            Marshal Vasilevsky: one cannot explain the unsuccessful start of the war by the mistakes of Stalin. He, it seems, also seemed to be taking part in these events. And orders and titles are not deprived, he said this, when the word liberals in our country, few people understood at all. As for the revisionist researchers, they are in each subsequent edition of Memoirs and Reflections, when no one heard of the revisionist researchers (at least in our country). Yes, then the WWII participants would have definitely noticed and corrected them.
        2. +3
          April 14 2020 08: 58
          Each person is a peculiarity of character traits, moral values ​​(spiritual), as well as skills (professional) - this is roughly speaking about a person, in general. Plus, his activity is manifested by actions, actions, statements ... In any person there are different sides of the manifestation of all of the above - for some a person can be Kashchei the Immortal, and for others, Gorynych.)))) Zhukov's merits as a commander are what we must respect this person, all the other "weaknesses" of a simple mortal pale before his merits of the military. And there on the TOP, the Lord himself will decide - deserved, guilty .... Do not judge (especially when we were not in the project yet) and we are discussing you will not))))
      4. 0
        April 15 2020 09: 29
        And of course, no evidence))
      5. 0
        April 15 2020 09: 47
        Where are the "firewood"?
      6. 0
        April 15 2020 10: 43
        Quote: Octopus
        But this?

        You probably forgot that you live because Zhukov defended Moscow and Leningrad and took Berlin. Say - not Zhukov, but the soldiers won the war? Then ask yourself the question, why in all decisive directions did they put it, and not someone else? Obviously, your nickname matches you perfectly. The ridge is not visible in you.
        1. +1
          April 15 2020 12: 33
          Quote: Den717
          You probably forgot that you live because

          You can’t list everything, thanks to which I live. My life is an accident. Like yours, excuse me for switching to personalities.
          Quote: Den717
          Say - not Zhukov, but the soldiers won the war?

          Of course not. The war was won by Stalin. This is not ironic.
          1. 0
            April 15 2020 13: 04
            Quote: Octopus
            Stalin won the war

            Stalin in 1941 did not command the Reserve Front. Anyway. To argue about this is an empty matter. An alternative story is almost a religion, there is no truth and no truth, only faith. There common sense does not play a role. And theological reasoning is boring to me ... hi
            1. 0
              April 15 2020 13: 34
              WWII won the Reserve Front? Well, OK, as you say.
              1. 0
                April 15 2020 13: 35
                Quote: Octopus
                WWII won the Reserve Front?

                He didn’t let the German go to Moscow. And that’s a lot, almost everything.
      7. The comment was deleted.
      8. 0
        April 15 2020 13: 50
        Octopus, where did the firewood come from? The author in the studio!
        1. 0
          April 15 2020 13: 56
          Quote: Siti58
          Author in the studio!

          Native Soviet power.
          Quote: Siti58
          where are the firewood from?

          Is your right mouse button working? Or the "find in google" context menu on the touchscreen?
    2. +6
      April 14 2020 07: 44
      Quote: DMB 75
      The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

      Entirely and completely agree.

      The only thing you can blame Zhukov, only in support of Khrushchev ..
      1. -1
        April 14 2020 09: 14
        And with comrade Stalin, to complete surrender, he loved Stalin. And under Brezhnev, he loved Brezhnev. He loved power, to complete shamelessness. And licked her all the intimate places.
    3. +5
      April 14 2020 07: 48
      Quote: DMB 75
      Entirely and completely agree.

      That's right!
      Zhukov is the great son of Russia, inseparable from her, although not ideal. Rough sometimes with lower-ranking bosses, who did not receive a fundamental general education, but an unsurpassed practice of war.
      Some civilians do not write out of great mind here that, he said, he was a bad chief of the General Staff, that, they say, captured many trophies in Germany, drove the trains.
      But at the same time they forget (or maybe they don’t even know at all) that G.K. Zhukov was only 4 months old, and what he did there wrong, for the liberal wise men a dark forest in general. The liberalists are not asking the question, but where did Zhukov unload trains from Germany?
      At the breech cottage, it turns out. Looks like the cottage was great. wink Yes, and in the well-known lists, "junk" was like that of a current regional official. Moreover, a lot was bought for personal funds. Something, of course, was brought in by the sycophants. The fate of the main whistleblower Zhukov, comrade. Abakumov V.S., received for everything from Comrade. Stalin, and Khrushchev too. Which suggests that the leader knew about the dirty nature of "this fuss" and its correspondence to reality. And many other similar cases.
      Zhukov helped out, won victories. The troops under his command in comparable conditions achieved success with less casualties than others. Zhukov achieved the rehabilitation of prisoners, many of whom were not to blame for their misfortune and shame. He, unlike Stalin, Khrushchev, Molotov, etc., was a soldier and personally heard the whistle of bullets, and the burst of shells, and the sound of sabers.
      Yes, and now dear to many near-minded citizens, the genacy of Comrade. Beria, from the mere mention of which some were immediately described, it was he who grabbed the white pens.
      1. +3
        April 14 2020 08: 17
        Quote: Alekseev
        it’s not from a great mind that they say that he was a bad chief of the General Staff

        ))
        Only civilians? Only here?
        Quote: Alekseev
        captured many trophies in Germany, drove trains.

        This is not us, this is our own Party.
        Quote: Alekseev
        they forget (or maybe they don’t know at all) that the chief of the General Staff G.K. Zhukov was only 4 months old,

        We are in the know. But you, apparently, do not distinguish between the statements "was the chief of the General Staff at the time" and "is responsible for." No, he is responsible for the summer events to a relatively small extent.
        Quote: Alekseev
        The liberalists are not asking the question, but where did Zhukov unload trains from Germany?

        Being a liberalist, I will not at all undertake to defend the position of the party and Comrade. Zhdanova on any subject. The question was - is this a blackening?
        Quote: Alekseev
        Which suggests that the leader knew about the dirty nature of "this fuss" and its correspondence to reality.

        How interesting. He knew, but watched as the Marshal of Victory wallow in Mr. Timid, apparently, the man was Comrade Stalin, did not intervene.
        Quote: Alekseev
        Yes, and now dear to many near-minded citizens, the genacy of Comrade. Beria, from the mere mention of which some were immediately described, it was he who grabbed the white pens.

        Eco throws you. And what is Beria not good for you? Or did he not marshal your Victory?
        1. +3
          April 14 2020 09: 45
          I have read quite a lot of different types of literature about the Second World War. They did not like Zhukov at the front and this is a fact. Moreover, both commanders and soldiers did not like. The commanders were jarred by his boorish, uncompromising manner of dealing with subordinates. The soldiers did not like the fact that the arrival of Zhukov meant an offensive or a counterstrike, and always in a hurry, without preparation, and straight ahead. Here is the "standard" assessment of Zhukov by a "Western" historian:
          "Zhukov was a typical, Russian, communist commander of that time, cruel, indifferent to human destinies, who spared no effort, both his own and others, for the sake of completing the task. The task must be completed at any cost! -That is his motto. Not distinguished by flexibility. mind, straight like a Russian rifle with a bayonet, he was always a cavalryman in his soul and until the end of the war he considered a dashing "cavalry" strike - an offensive to guarantee victory in any conditions. He always believed that the main thing in a war is either to strike first or not to allow the enemy to gain a foothold, to take up prepared positions by their opponent and therefore always counterattacked, attacked, drove their troops at a frantic pace, regardless of losses, until they were completely exhausted. Speaking from the point of view of military art, this is generally correct and in this there is quite justified reason, however, Zhukov did not take into account the fact that he was commanding troops poorly equipped with equipment, fire support, not provided with either transport or ammunition they are sufficient, that is, they do not have sufficient transport and fire mobility, they are practically not covered from the air and which act against a highly mobile, technically superior equipped enemy who has extensive experience and is able to quickly maneuver resources. Counterattacks against such an enemy using the methods of "civil war", in "dashing ranks", without thorough reconnaissance, without sufficient fire support and reserves, simply led to monstrous losses, depleted resources and, as a result, brought more harm in the first and second stages of the war than the benefits ..... The situation began to change in this regard, only at the third stage, at the end of the war, when the Red Army received a huge amount of Lend-Lease weapons and weapons from the evacuated industry of Soviet Russia, which had been rebuilt in a warlike manner .... Only then the tactics of Zhukov's "frenzied" offensives began to bring a positive result .... Zhukov was not a talented commander, from a campaigner to the marrow of his bones, he did not so much lead, using knowledge, flexibility of mind and authority (as, for example, did the same Napoleon) , and how much he pressed, pushed through the necessary, using the repressive mechanism available to him ... direct and uncompromising, honest enough and desperately brave, he was the polishing of the Russian spirit - inflexible, cruel, contemptuous of hardships and death ... which the Kremlin tyrant liked so much, who always demanded from everyone unquestioning obedience and fulfillment of the tasks assigned to him at any cost and who chose him-Zhukov, for the sake of his natural, moral qualities , as a conductor and embodiment of his ideas and solutions ... Zhukov was not a military genius, but he knew how to cope with the Red Army, its commanders ... without bothering with the use and honing of various types of martial arts, he chose one of his view - "strike-offensive" and, in the end, brought it, polished it to perfection .... "
          1. +4
            April 14 2020 09: 56
            Excuse me, where did the quote come from? Google is not looking.
          2. 0
            April 14 2020 10: 32
            I agree, but the soldiers loved Rokosovsky, different tactics, different attitudes towards people.
            1. +1
              April 14 2020 11: 14
              Quote: Tonya
              I agree, but the soldiers loved Rokosovsky, different tactics, different attitudes towards people.

              This is yes ... citizen Rokossovsky was a famous humanist.
              Commander of the Don Front Lieutenant General K.K. Rokossovsky, according to the report of the Special Front Division to the Office of the Special Departments of the NKVD of the USSR of October 30, 1942, proposed using detachments to influence the infantry of the unsuccessfully advancing 66th Army. Rokossovsky believed that the detachment detachments were to follow the infantry units and force the fighters to make the attack.
          3. +1
            April 14 2020 10: 42
            Keyword Literature ...
          4. +1
            April 14 2020 12: 27
            Quote: Snail N9
            They did not like Zhukov at the front and this is a fact. Moreover, both commanders and soldiers did not like. The commanders were warped by his boorish, uncompromising manner of dealing with subordinates.

            I, too, may not like his manner of communication, but what would you personally say without a mate to your subordinates in such a situation if you knew that more than two companies of tankers were blamed because of them
        2. -1
          April 19 2020 20: 11
          WHAT TO SAY IN DEFENSE OF A DOMESTIC BEFORE READING:
          B. V L A D I M I R O V

          D U T A I S L A B A
          Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
          "Memoirs and Reflections."
          1. +1
            April 20 2020 00: 08
            Are you me Who is your geek out of them?
    4. +3
      April 14 2020 09: 57
      "Why they hate Marshal Zhukov" - for the fact that it was he who hosted the Victory Parade on Red Square on June 24, 1945. This is the highest assessment of his merits in the Great Patriotic War - the right to host the Parade of Winners will never be trusted to those who do not deserve it.
      I don’t see the point in writing more about Zhukov. Everyone will find in his biography what he is looking for: someone will confirm that he (Zhukov) was one of the greatest Soviet commanders who deservedly became the Marshal of Victory, and someone - the opportunity to pour an extra bucket of dirt or slop on Zhukov. Especially if this someone hates the Soviet Union and all its achievements, the one for whom Victory is 100500 million lives lost in vain, who believes that it would be better to pass Leningrad, that the USSR would be better to lose - and we would now drink real Bavarian beer. What about them - poor to talk.
      1. +2
        April 14 2020 10: 03
        Quote: Alexander72
        What about them - poor to talk.

        Where are we, Russophobia. But here I am interested.
        Quote: Alexander72
        it's 100500 million lost lives in vain

        Among the patriots of the USSR there are people who relate to the destruction of millions of Russians, mostly civilians, without humor?
      2. 0
        April 15 2020 17: 25
        Of course, you don’t know that everyone leaned on Stalin, that he would take a parade, to which Stalin replied - I’m already old to ride a horse. Here I had a deputy, let him accept. That is, Stalin had a senior, where they would send.
    5. -2
      April 14 2020 23: 30
      Good day to all!
      I confess right away that my comment is not a special response to your comment, just an attempt not to get into the comment footer. Without belittling the merits of G.K. Zhukov, I have the audacity to ask all the "grazing" on this site not to stoop to such a simplification, to disagree with the fact that, like the hero of a modern television series, he (like many of the departed) was like a two-dimensional creature, was not white, not black, not even a sheet of paper with black and white stripes (even with the beautiful stamp "MARSHAL VICTORY").
      To paraphrase one foreign cartoon character "giants ... are like onions. Multi-layered. Onions are multi-layered, I, too - layer by layer," so we are all "multi-layered", in any case, "I think so", although we admit the possibility of simpler configurations "that donkeys are simpler. Our fears are written on our foreheads."
      Not everything in life was simple and unambiguous, is and will be. Finally, excerpts from the letter of one little-known now laureate of state prizes of the USSR and the Russian Federation:
      Dear Alexander Sergeevich!
      Ah, how sorry I am to disappoint you in your old age, but you can’t get away from life.
      I understand both you and all our other generals who boast, for no one will praise anymore. Not at all ... And you, and the commanders who led you, were very bad warriors, and you couldn’t be different, because you have been and have been fighting in the most mediocre army since the creation of the human race. That army, like the current one, emerged from the most despicable society — it no longer needs proof. Now everyone already knows, except for you, of course, that our losses in the war amount to 40-50 million, and I kept repeating to you this time too: not you, not me and not the army defeated fascism, but our long-suffering people ... Only criminals could litter their people like that! Only enemies could lead the army like that during the fighting, only scum could keep the army in fear and suspicion - all special divisions, smershas, ​​1st, 2nd ... eleventh divisions, headquarters resembling gypsy camps. And the penalty companies, and detachments? And order 227? Yes, for one for this it was necessary to disperse the entire Kremlin camarilla after the war. Fearing this, fearing a clear-sighted army, your brethren, urged by the Supreme, began reprisal against the people. We saved the skins of kam - no longer needed.
      ... Do not touch and burn our wounds, General! And you can’t hide the truth, just as you can’t hide what’s going on in a valiant owl. army. But after all they tried and are trying to hide with all their might and such guardians of "purity of uniform" as you, with all the remaining forces help to commit a crime. One more. And is it one? In peace days, our army suffers more losses than Count Chernyshev, who led the Russian army in a brilliant campaign against Paris. During the Seven Years' War, they were then equal to six percent. Well, given that overwhelming disgusting free medicine, poor, often unhealthy food, two hundred thousand children a year die, so to speak of soldiers who always under the Soviet regime were like straw, suitable only to rot it and throw it in a fire. I feel that you read and read little, so there was such a prince Raevsky who brought his sons to Borodino in a redoubt (the youngest was 14 years old!), So I am sure that Prince Raevsky, and Bagration, and Miloradovich, and even dashing the Cossack Platov would not have gone down to the reproach of a soldier with street abuse, and you ?!
      Oh-ho-ho-oooh, yet from rags to riches - nothing ever worked out. I’ll go to church on Victory Day to pray for those killed and ruined during the war. And I advise you to do the same - I assure you, you will be angry, hurry up, and you will not want to count the "vain offenses" inflicted on our generals. There are no such words, there is no such prayer of God that would grant them forgiveness for vile days (at least Brezhnev’s), but if all of you, having removed your uniforms without strumming medals, went out into the Russian field surrounded by empty villages (one of the reasons devastation - war), if you kneel down and lower your gray heads, ask for forgiveness from the Almighty, maybe he will hear you. This is the only way to save your general’s soul, otherwise you will stink in the world and die with dark anger in your heart. Teach you God!
      I bow.
    6. +2
      April 15 2020 06: 36
      Quote: DMB 75
      The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

      Entirely and completely agree.

      Saying an unadorned truth is not a blackening.
    7. +1
      April 15 2020 12: 42
      Personally, I am convinced that Zhukov is a great commander and the Marshal of Victory is not necessary. For me this is an undeniable fact.
      In my family, his book "Memories and Reflections" is a desktop.
      Let banderlog in Independent rage.
      People’s memory cannot be undone by stupid libels and utterances.
      We will return to Ukraine.
      And we will restore its monuments and plaques.
    8. 0
      April 15 2020 19: 05
      Quote: DMB 75
      Entirely and completely agree.

      What about the monument to Zhukov in Moscow? Why did they remove the old one and put a new one? And they attached a sign "from Sobyanin, Putin and Co."
  2. +6
    April 14 2020 05: 13
    Zhukov will forever remain the Marshal of Victory, the Great Leader and People’s Hero !!! The liberda screeching to the west comes and goes, but the Hero of Zhukov, the Marshal of Victory, remains !!!
  3. +12
    April 14 2020 05: 13
    In the Urals, it is customary to be proud that K.G. Zhukov commanded our military district after the war.
    From the lips of veterans, about a marshal - a victory, I heard only one assessment - “cool marshal, was cool” !!!
    1. +10
      April 14 2020 05: 55
      Hello, Vlad!
      But Rokossovsky was said to be smart. smile request
      1. +3
        April 14 2020 06: 58
        Less to whom? Rokossovsky? Eagles ... laughing
        1. +5
          April 14 2020 07: 09
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Less to whom? Rokossovsky?

          I went across the "current"
          At VO, this is not welcomed now.
          "Dissent" is burned out with a "hot iron" in the form of a minus off
          Vivid example, comment below and soon my comment laughing
    2. -2
      April 14 2020 06: 09
      I read a lot about WWII and front-line literature, read memoirs of both Soviet and German authors, it is very interesting what nicknames they gave to ours, including the generals, the Rokossovsky general dagger, Zhukov the general meat.
      1. +8
        April 14 2020 09: 15
        Who gave such nicknames? No matter how much I read the memoirs of the German military commanders, they did not mention the names of the Soviet commanders at all. They were just "Russians".
        I remember Konev was proud that Manstein in his memoirs called the actions of his troops "energetic and skillful." Without any mention of the last name. So there is no need to tell tales about knives and meat.
        1. +1
          April 14 2020 11: 13
          Quote: Moskovit
          Who gave such nicknames? No matter how much I read the memoirs of the German military commanders, they did not mention the names of the Soviet commanders at all. They were just "Russians".

          And here is the chief of the German General Staff of the ground forces in his diary from 1.10.1941. September 24.09.1942, 13 Field Marshal von Brauchitsch recalls his immediate superior, Commander-in-Chief of the German Ground Forces, 1 times, and Major General P.A., commander of the 11st Guards KK, recalls Belove - XNUMX times !.
          Here it is. Speaking of Zhukov-not once.
    3. +6
      April 14 2020 06: 35
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      cool marshal was cool

      For young people, it should be explained that the word "cool" in Soviet times had a completely different meaning than it does now. The word "tough leader" was understood as an authoritarian leader, which could be, but could not be a positive characteristic, even at that time.
      Examples: cool Chuykov
      The commander himself is the embodiment of energy. Before the start of the offensive, he rushes along the bridgehead in his all-terrain vehicle, and God forbid, if he notices the disorder: not to knit a careless person. Everyone is well aware of the exactingness, sometimes even the abrupt disposition of the commander. But behind the outward rudeness of V.I. Chuikov lies a love for a simple soldier, for his military craft. The General values ​​the reputation of the army, and his exactingness, ardor is due primarily to the desire to fulfill the task as best as possible

      Cool R.S. Zemlyachka
      comrade SAMOILOVA (Zemlyachka) - an extremely nervous and sick woman who denied any kind of belief system in her work and left the memory of “Arakcheev times” for almost all workers. Unnecessary nervousness, too high a tone in a conversation with almost all comrades, extreme demanding ... undeserved repressions against all who had at least a little courage to “dare to have one’s judgment” or simply “not like” ... SAMOILOVA in Crimea, literally all the workers trembled before her, not daring to disobey her at least the most stupid or erroneous orders.

      Nekrutoy Shaposhnikov
      It was my responsibility to systematically report (on the situation in Iran) to B. M. Shaposhnikov. Boris Mikhailovich was a charming person, and he treated young colonels like me with true fatherly warmth. If what turned out wrong with us, he did not scold, did not even raise his voice, but only asked with reproach:

      “What are you, darling?”

      From this question, we were ready to fall through the ground, we remembered our mistakes for a long time and never repeated them
      1. +5
        April 14 2020 08: 42
        Do you know what Vasilevsky most noted in Zhukov? The fact that he never lost concentration. and the worse and more difficult it was, the more he was going to. This is power. Character. there are only a few such people in any generation. Until the soldiers, who are full of courage, fight passionately and enthusiastically, the commander is rarely given a reason to show tremendous willpower to achieve his goal. But as soon as difficulties arise, and this always happens when great results are at stake, when things don’t go by itself, like a well-oiled machine, now the machine itself begins to show resistance, and to overcome it, the commander will need tremendous willpower (Clausewitz Principles warfare ")
        if by simple he could not be cool. he had to be tough and quick to solve. for many simple people, it’s just not to understand what it is to make such decisions.
      2. +4
        April 14 2020 12: 21
        Nekrutoy Shaposhnikov

        just read this quote yesterday. Shtemenko. drinks Which, according to Simonov, who was retelling Vasilevsky, himself was not opposed to meditating on the same Vasilevsky to Stalin. wink
        These are people of their time. Whatever they are, with their problem and cockroaches - without them we would not have won the war. Do not disturb their memory. They are truly heroes. And Georgy Konstantinovich is truly a symbol of Victory. soldier
        1. +4
          April 14 2020 14: 07
          I do not understand your comment. I tried to explain that the opposite of the word "tough leader" in the speech of that time was "intelligent leader". I do not consider the latter a negative characteristic, for the general as well. So if you wanted to protect Shaposhnikov from me, then in vain.
          1. +1
            April 14 2020 14: 36
            So if you wanted to protect Shaposhnikov from me, then in vain.

            I didn’t want to protect anyone. I think that Boris Mikhailovich does not need protection at all, and a blessed memory to him. hi What he himself could not do, then Vasilevsky did, brought up by him. soldier Just after your quote I remembered about Shtemenko ... I hope I did not hook you, and did not offend you. hi
            1. +2
              April 14 2020 15: 11
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              I hope I did not hook you, and did not offend you.

              Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))
              1. +2
                April 14 2020 17: 19
                Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))

                it is a personal and subjective affair of everyone. To each his own! hi
  4. +14
    April 14 2020 05: 19
    I agree with the conclusions, but since you are undertaking a similar article, it would be nice to give key battles, numbers, etc. as an example.
    And it turns out that to the thesis "Zhukov is a Stalinist butcher" in your article there is only one answer "no - he is a hero." And then what is the point of what is written?
    1. -2
      April 14 2020 05: 54
      ... it would be nice to give an example of key battles, numbers, etc.

      And he can only cite as an example the storming of Berlin, where Comrade Zhukov, regardless of any losses, climbed forward to be the first there. "Brilliant" was a strategic operation, and how many lives of our soldiers it cost.
      1. +10
        April 14 2020 06: 57
        Yeah, and for some reason, lost people per thousand people of the initial composition, less than Konev.
      2. +3
        April 14 2020 08: 46
        And what were the losses of the Red Army in the Berlin operation? Here, according to official figures, 80 thousand dead, and according to the "great commander" journalist Minkin - 500 thousand dead soldiers and officers of the Red Army.
        1. +6
          April 14 2020 10: 39
          Less than 80 thousand .. and Minkin is a sick traitor
      3. +4
        April 14 2020 11: 22
        Quote: Sea Cat
        And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first.

        In fact, Comrade Zhukov climbed forward in order to have time to cut off the regular German army from the city. And his actions turned out to be correct - forces with a total number of no more than one division managed to withdraw to the city. And the bulk of the troops - the 9th A and part of the 4th TA - remained in the Halb cauldron, from where they later began a breakthrough to Wenk in the style of "corpses filled up".
        1. +5
          April 14 2020 12: 29
          And his actions turned out to be correct - forces with a total number of no more than one division managed to withdraw to the city. And the bulk of the troops - the 9th A and part of the 4th TA - remained in the Halb cauldron, from where they later began a breakthrough to Wenk in the style of "corpses filled up".

          absolutely right. It seems that anyone interested in history already knows about this fact.hi
          If the German units managed to retreat to Berlin, the battles there would be an order of magnitude harder and bloodier. soldier
          Swag left by the Germans in the Halb pot:

          and more:
      4. +3
        April 14 2020 12: 46
        And he can cite as an example only the assault on Berlin, where comrade Zhukov, without regard for any losses, climbed forward to be there first.

        Konstantin, AlekseyRa gave a breakdown why there was an assault on the Zeelov Heights.
        In general, I recommend this book. It says about the losses. hi
  5. -6
    April 14 2020 05: 24
    Well done, Zhukov, the enemy of the people, Beria was arrested, not scared.
    1. +5
      April 14 2020 05: 50
      Khrushchev ordered Beria to be arrested, Zhukov only followed the order. Yes, and it was tricky to "chicken out" with the Kantemirovskaya and Tamanskaya tank divisions brought into the capital. laughing
      1. +2
        April 14 2020 07: 23
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Khrushchev ordered the arrest of Beria; Zhukov only complied with the order.

        Could not fulfill. and he wouldn’t have anything for it
        But where would Khrushchev end up?
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Yes, and it was tricky to "chicken out" with the Kantemirovskaya and Tamanskaya tank divisions brought into the capital.

        The Yakirs, Uborevichs and Mukhukhs had dozens of divisions and where are they? request
        1. 0
          April 14 2020 08: 46
          most likely could not fail. just by virtue of character and ability to carry out orders without looking back.
          1. -3
            April 14 2020 09: 46
            Quote: carstorm 11
            most likely could not fail. just by virtue of character and ability to carry out orders without looking back.

            Zhukov, by virtue of his position, SUCH orders were not required to comply ...
    2. +5
      April 14 2020 06: 33
      Quote: Pessimist22
      not scared

      LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ...
      1. -5
        April 14 2020 06: 35
        He was removed, and then shot that you reap what you sow.
        1. +5
          April 14 2020 07: 02
          Quote: Pessimist22
          what are you sowing

          And what is interesting he sowed? Crushed the enemies of the USSR ... created a yaba ... forged VPK ...
        2. -3
          April 14 2020 07: 15
          Quote: Pessimist22
          What goes around comes around

          Moreover, with the same wording, "enemy of the people, a spy of several Glsudarstvo"
          The template itself was invented, I myself experienced it
      2. -2
        April 14 2020 07: 14
        Quote: apro
        LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ...

        Did he lead the country?
        A coup d'etat is kind of like a change of power
        And who else from the "top" was shot?
      3. -2
        April 14 2020 07: 16
        Quote: apro
        LPBeria was killed during a coup d'etat ..

        1. The history of your country, finally learn: who, whom and when "turned"?

        Beria never was not the head of the country

        2. Beria was shot by sentence Supreme Court of the USSRvalid to this day.
        1. -1
          April 14 2020 09: 13
          Quote: Olgovich
          Learn the history of your country, finally:

          This can be addressed to you.
          Quote: Olgovich
          Beria was shot by the verdict of the Supreme Court of the USSR, valid to this day.

          Did you see the respected case of LPBeria? Read the recollections of the participants in the action? For me there are too many connections.
          Laws and decrees of the USSR bodies have selective circulation on the territory of Russia ...
          1. -1
            April 14 2020 09: 54
            Quote: apro
            This can be addressed to you.

            With a fright?
            I did not write about the non-existent "coup".
            Quote: apro
            Did you see the respected case of LPBeria? Read the recollections of the participants in the action? For me there are too many connections.

            I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
            Quote: apro
            Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia ...

            1. The verdict upheld in Russia.
            2. Again, you distort the name of the country RUSSIA.
            Well, what rudeness?
            1. -1
              April 14 2020 11: 29
              Quote: Olgovich
              Well, what rudeness?

              You dear have your position. I have my own.
              Quote: Olgovich
              1. The verdict upheld in Russia.

              And some sentences were canceled. And this can be treated differently ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              what a fright?
              I did not write about the non-existent "coup".

              Kantemirov’s division outside the planned streets of Moscow is always something ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              I read tearful penitential requests

              But after the army’s visit to the LPBeria’s mansion, no one saw him alive from people who knew him closely.
              1. -2
                April 14 2020 12: 00
                Quote: apro
                Quote: Olgovich
                Well, what rudeness?

                You dear have your position. I have my own.

                Misleading the name "RUSSIA" You are trying in vain to offend the country, but humiliate yourself - in the eyes of the readers
                Quote: apro
                And some sentences were canceled. And this can be treated differently ...

                This is not canceled, treat it as you want, but the fact, as they say, "muzzle" Yes
                Quote: apro

                Kantemirov’s division outside the planned streets of Moscow is always something ...

                so where is the "coup"? Who was "turned over" there? Already .... the Minister of the Interior?

                Then these "coups" were from the 1930s -hundreds- pre-ministerialChairman of the Council of People's Commissars, etc. Politburo and Central Committee, lol
                Quote: apro
                But after the army’s visit to the mansion of LPBeria, he was alive from people who knew him closely not seen no one. and was allegedly kept by the army on guptvahta.a not where it should be .. fictitious a lot.

                Why look at him? belay request
                Which of the people who knew them closely saw, after the arrest of the People's Commissars of the NKVD Rykov, Yagoda, etc.?
                What, nobody?

                So then what else is there, what kind of privilege should there be? belay request

                "Everything is like people have" Yes: arrest, Supreme Court of the USSR, execution.
            2. -2
              April 14 2020 17: 55
              Quote: Olgovich

              I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
              Quote: apro
              Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia ...


              There were no requests from Beria and there were no interrogation protocols either.
              1. Fat
                -1
                April 14 2020 20: 12
                Quote: Hiking
                Quote: Olgovich

                I read tearful penitential requests Beria members of the PB forgive him for everything - with the confession of all sins and the protocols of his interrogations - very revealing, interesting DOCUMENTS
                Quote: apro
                Laws and decrees of the USSR organs have selective circulation in the territory Russia ...


                There were no requests from Beria and there were no interrogation protocols either.

                http://istmat.info/node/22266
                http://istmat.info/node/22125
                Read health ...
    3. -1
      28 June 2020 22: 00
      "100 myths about beria" read the jerk.
  6. +7
    April 14 2020 05: 37
    You can now denigrate those people who lived then, not just Zhukov GK, 1000 times. Only VICTORY was behind them!
  7. +4
    April 14 2020 05: 47
    To Zhukov, as a symbol of Victory, it is criminal to neglect, much less to defile his name. To Zhukov, as a commander and military strategist, there are questions. BUT (!) No one who is trying to challenge his decisions has never been in that time pressure and under such pressure as Grigory Konstantinovich. And yet ... I do not know when, I do not know who, but they must answer for the Rzhevskaya meat grinder. For THIS was a CRIME !!!
    1. +1
      April 15 2020 17: 12
      The decisions were not Zhukov, but the General Staff and approved by the Headquarters. Under each operation was the signature of the Commander of the Headquarters and all the troops of Comrade Stalin. Before vising a document, no one except him knew how much and what should be thrown in that direction. Also, how it would look politically and what would bring the whole country, none of the generals cared about it, only Stalin did it, his deputies at each plant, his deputies on the entire line of arms delivery from factories to the front. Only after the arrangement of everything, the Commander-in-Chief put in a visa and gave the plan with orders to his deputy, for delivery to the right front and to monitor the implementation of the plan, and that was where his genius ended. Ordinary performer. And different versions of operations went from army commanders to front commanders and further to the General Staff. So the headquarters should have learned from Stalin, who was the Chairman of the Council of Ministers, how much and what could be at the disposal of the General Staff, how they can operate. Here, Stalin had to monitor the economy, food, uniforms, the health of fighters and everything else. Was this laid on Zhukov’s shoulders ?!
      1. 0
        April 15 2020 18: 17
        Quote: zenion
        The decisions were not Zhukov, but the General Staff and approved by the Headquarters.

        I gave you a plus for your belief in the infallibility and innocence of the Victory Marshals. If you carefully read my commentary, then I noted that no one can put himself in the situation of the beginning of the Second World War and the peculiarities of that time. As I understand it, you are not a military man, otherwise you would understand that general's shoulder straps are not for beauty and that wearing them imposes a SPECIAL responsibility on a soldier. Namely - MAKING A DECISION or expressing your disagreement with the higher command. Everything else is from the evil one. I in no way implore the merits of Grigory Konstantinovich, but ... Have you ever heard of the Rzhev operation? None of the military leaders of that time in their memoirs did not painfully recall what happened there. Read it, now you can. In terms of the number of forces involved, from our side, this operation surpasses the Battle of Stalingrad. Only Stalingrad can be called a battle, but Rzhev is BOYNEY! And no one answered for this, if only hundreds of thousands of our soldiers who went missing "... With deep respect to you ...
        1. +1
          April 17 2020 13: 51
          His memoirs were published three times. And in each issue, everything became different. Either he did this, then suddenly someone else did it, but he commanded them ...
  8. +1
    April 14 2020 05: 48
    ... until the great marshal who defeated the Third Reich.

    Did he do it alone? But what about all the other millions of soldiers and officers of the Red Army? I'm not talking about I.V. Stalin, about Rokossovsky, Konev, Chuikov and other famous commanders.
    Zhukov !!! One and indivisible !!! You cannot live without an idol, you simply will be bent without it.
    1. -6
      April 14 2020 06: 41
      Look, as if he himself was not bent, who you are, an expert on stamps and nonsense, sitting here is spreading all sorts of nonsense that has long been refuted.
      1. +3
        April 14 2020 06: 57
        Do a favor, poke your drinking companions. What nonsense and stamps are you talking about, great expert on the history of your own country? Is this Stalin nonsense ?! Rokossovsky stamp? !!! Well, well, you will go far, I would say where, but there is no desire to go down to your level.
        1. -4
          April 14 2020 09: 57
          Enumerate or find it yourself? Enough already to carry nonsense about the Berlin operation, here is at least one prper
    2. 0
      April 14 2020 07: 19
      Quote: Sea Cat
      You cannot live without an idol, you simply will be bent without it.

      How will the next article be about
      I.V. Stalin, about Rokossovsky, Konev, Chuikov and other famous commanders.

      The rhetoric will be the same, only the last name will be from your list
    3. 0
      April 14 2020 22: 38
      An army of rams led by a lion is stronger than an army of lions
      led by a ram.
      Napoleon.
      without any hint of anything, not the most stupid person in history said so.
  9. +9
    April 14 2020 06: 05
    The expression "... after the death of Stalin ..."
    I would like to clarify in which battle or as a result of what accident did Stalin die?
    1. 0
      April 14 2020 08: 50
      It is believed that the death of Stalin was not natural. That they helped him die.
      1. +1
        April 14 2020 09: 12
        I heard that. If we are talking about this, then we must understand that these concepts are completely different.
  10. +3
    April 14 2020 06: 09
    The blackening of Marshal of Victory is the blackening of our entire history, the history of the USSR, the history of the Great Patriotic War, and the Great Victory.

    And what is the blackening of the name of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and of the entire Soviet period as a whole, where millions of working people created and created?
    I’ll tell you so, perhaps the USSR’s casualties were higher, but do not forget the reasons why such a “rush” was waged. Do you have confidence that those bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have exploded in Moscow and Leningrad?
    1. 0
      April 14 2020 06: 37
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Do you have confidence that those bombs that fell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have exploded in Moscow and Leningrad?

      Yes, sure. This pie was baked for the Fuhrer.
    2. 0
      April 14 2020 10: 38
      ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..
      1. +1
        April 14 2020 18: 00
        Quote: ver_
        ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..

        Well, do not write these words to Zhukov. This was said back in imperial times.
        1. Fat
          0
          April 14 2020 20: 45
          Quote: Hiking
          Quote: ver_
          ... * .. why feel sorry for them - women still give birth ... * - he is a hero of not my novel ..

          Well, do not write these words to Zhukov. This was said back in imperial times.

          Alexandra Feodorovna (née Princess Alice Victoria Helena Louise Beatrice of Hesse-Darmstadt), wife of Emperor Nicholas II (since 1894). She received her name in honor of her mother - Princess Alice of England, daughter of British Queen Victoria) she deigned to speak in a similar vein about Russian generals "... they have a lot of soldiers ..."
          Probably because she didn’t know the traditional words of British sailors about drowned ships and sailors:
          ... King still has an awful lot of ones (the king still has a lot of them)
          And about "women", except for a remake, and there is nothing written request
        2. -1
          April 17 2020 08: 09
          ..there was no one forbidden to use this quote ..
  11. +2
    April 14 2020 06: 40
    I have a question for the patriotic public, including the author, about liberals and revisionist researchers.

    Less than a month ago, liberals and revisionist researchers in the center of Moscow sawed Marshal of Victory with a horse.


    So the question is. Where is the landing? Where is Mr. Shoigu?
    1. +4
      April 14 2020 07: 24
      Quote: Octopus
      Less than a month ago, liberals and revisionist researchers in the center of Moscow sawed Marshal of Victory with a horse.

      Put another
      What's the matter?
      In the center of Moscow, in front of the Historical Museum, a monument was dismantled to Marshal Georgy Zhukov. As it turned out, the old monument is being replaced with a new one. The photos from the scene show that now the "new" Marshal Zhukov is sitting in the saddle and does not stretch his hand forward, but salutes.

      The former monument to the sculptor Vyacheslav Klykov and architect Yuri Grigoryev was erected on May 8, 1995, in honor of the celebration of the 50th anniversary of victory in World War II. Marshal Zhukov is depicted on a horse during the adoption of the Victory Parade on June 24, 1945 on Red Square.

      Footage of the historical moment - in the photo gallery "Gazeta.Ru".

      20.03.2020, 12: 35


      During the installation of a new monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov on Manezhnaya Square, March 20, 2020
      1. -5
        April 14 2020 07: 28
        Quote: Lipchanin
        Put another
        What's the matter?

        He's not there.
        1. +4
          April 14 2020 08: 01
          Quote: Octopus
          He's not there.

          But lying is not necessary ...



          Monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov replaced at Manezhnaya Square
          Instead of an equestrian monument to the commander with his hands down, a statue appeared, saluting. Later it was called a copy, installed during the restoration of the original

          THE ART NEWSPAPER
          MARCH 20, 2020


          Another link: https://rg.ru/2020/03/20/reg-cfo/zachem-v-moskve-zamenili-pamiatnik-marshalu-zhukovu.html
          1. -2
            April 14 2020 08: 05
            https://tass.ru/moskva/8036229
          2. -1
            April 14 2020 08: 16
            Something the horse’s head is not particularly suitable for the rest. And welded on the snot.
            1. +2
              April 14 2020 08: 18
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Something the horse’s head is not particularly suitable for the rest. And welded on the snot.

              I do not know... request Perhaps this is just a "tack", and "brought to mind" already in place?
              1. -1
                April 14 2020 08: 23
                Quote: Insurgent
                Perhaps "bring to mind" will be in place?

                And with a harness a mess. laughing
        2. +2
          April 14 2020 08: 37
          Quote: Octopus
          He's not there.

          Where is the photo from? belay
          Did I draw it myself? belay
          1. +2
            April 14 2020 08: 47
            Quote: Lipchanin
            Where is the photo from?
            Did I draw it myself?

            Also for me, the "artist" was found recourse ... I drew better !!! wassat laughing

            1. 0
              April 14 2020 10: 25
              Quote: Insurgent
              To me, too, the "artist" was found ... I painted better !!!

              Afiget !!! belay
              The whole post is gone, there is only one phrase left belay belay belay
            2. 0
              April 14 2020 10: 36
              Quote: Insurgent
              ... I drew better !!!

              It’s just written in a different manner No. wassat
          2. +1
            April 14 2020 08: 56
            Quote: Lipchanin
            Where is the photo from?

            Photo from March 20, if I do not confuse anything. And now, it seems, April.
            1. 0
              April 14 2020 10: 34
              Quote: Octopus
              Photo from March 20, if I do not confuse anything. And now, it seems, April.

              Do you upload a new photo every day?
              Have you ever read the link you posted?
              MOSCOW, March 20. / TASS /. The monument to Marshal Georgy Zhukov on Manezhnaya Square in Moscow was dismantled, it will be returned to its place after the restoration, dedicated to the 75th anniversary of the Victory.

              Here is a photo of the new and old
              1. +1
                April 14 2020 10: 42
                Quote: Lipchanin

                Do you upload a new photo every day?

                In my simplicity of my soul, I wanted to specifically give for Octopus and others, a link to webcams on Manege Square, but alas ...

                I did not find any working request ...
                1. 0
                  April 14 2020 11: 24
                  Quote: Insurgent
                  I did not find any working ...

                  Most likely, either new ones are set for Victory Day, or old ones are being repaired
                  But most likely new
  12. +6
    April 14 2020 07: 08
    Well, I don’t know ... my grandfather served in the war at Headquarters (I learned this after his death), personally to Stalin he wore orders to sign ... when I began to "rub" him about the greatness of Zhukov, he abruptly got up and left, throwing over his shoulder - "Zhukov ... there was no greater g ... s ... how many people he ruined ..." I first heard curses from my grandfather ... that's the "marshal of victory" ..
    when he served, we also had such "heroes", films were made about them (such as documentaries), although the prosecutor's office cried about them.
  13. +2
    April 14 2020 07: 14
    Zhukov’s personality is not simple, and it’s impossible to make a hero from him. When you read, memories and thoughts, he really is a hero from heroes, and you start reading Marshal Aviation Golovanov, or Marshal Rokossovsky, Army General Gorbatov, and immediately there appears a completely non-heroic image of a beetle. and the inventory of a search in his country house and at home, generally characterizes him as a grabber and grabber. he also did not suffer from the modesty of beetles, and the sovereign repeatedly pointed out this to him. already with the WWI war, it was clear that the war was won by the one with a strong economy and rear, while the generals themselves were already secondarily. and if, by right, it is considered to whom they owe victory, then everything is clear- Comrade STALIN. if you look at how the current one is trying to cope with the virus, and how it does, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter. in difficult times, another, decisive ruler is needed, then there will be performers, like the beetles, and victory, as they said earlier, will be theirs.
  14. +3
    April 14 2020 07: 28
    And the Mausoleum, covered with plywood on May 9, is the same. Or a ban on wearing a portrait of Stalin in the ranks of the Immortal Regiment? Or the glorification of a part of the Cossacks who fought on the side of the Wehrmacht? Yes, we have hidden followers of power in our power.
  15. The comment was deleted.
    1. +4
      April 14 2020 08: 29
      Quote: Snigir
      Allied forces commander General Eisenhower about Marshal Zhukov

      Well, firstly, Eisenhower does not have to be trusted. In particular, the well-known Mr. Isaev claims (but without relying on the sources for this particular conversation) that the infantry of the Red Army (advanced units) at the last stage of the war were massively trained in the basics of the sapper business and she was really instructed to continue the offensive through the minefield - the Soviet side is good She knew how the Germans were fined for losing their pace and initiative.
      Second.
      Each operational group had one anti-tank tank. Having overcome the crest of the hill, they drove straight to the minefield. Although they had to fight not only with mines, but also with thick mud, at first they showed themselves well. Under the blows of the chains, several minutes exploded, adding a couple of extra funnels to the field. But in the end, both of the demolition tanks got bogged down, because there wasn’t enough engine power on wet ground to crank the drum and tracks at the same time. Frozen, they were excellent targets, and were soon knocked out.

      The next tanks of both columns had no choice but to go around the barriers and break through. It ended in a nightmarish domino - the first of the tanks rounded the barrage and drove a few yards before being blown up by a mine. The next went around both of them, and moved a little further, when he also came across a mine and was destroyed.

      This chain lasted until then, until one tank broke through, finally, through the minefield to continue the attack. The one following him tried to follow the same route, and sometimes he managed to pass the minefield unscathed. By the third tank, however, the soft earth turned into a swamp, where armored vehicles were mated, despite the “duck legs” that we placed on the connecting links. And every stuck tank became a fixed target for killer anti-tank fire. The Germans continued to shell the wrecked car until it caught fire. And if the crew tried to get out, he fell under concentrated fire from small arms.


      Not everything is so simple with mine clearance from the Americans.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +6
          April 14 2020 08: 52
          I almost never put cons. So the claim is not addressed.
          Quote: Snigir
          gave a "not convenient" quote from the book

          As for the humanism of Comrade Zhukov, then about the person who worked as deputy comrade Stalin, it is unlikely to be able to find something unexpected. You, for your part, would be wise to consider that under the command of Eisenhower there were mainly American voters. There were no American voters under Zhukov’s command, so it’s more accurate to judge him by the standards of his Chinese colleagues. If you really need an American, then Field Marshal MacArthur is better than the others when he was last in the Philippines.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      April 14 2020 09: 32
      I heard that many times. But I never read in the memoirs of soldiers that they were driven into minefields like this. There were always sappers in front, who made passages, and followed by infantry.
      Now I read the memoirs of Junger (that same writer), he also served during WWII. He describes how the Germans mined the cutting edge. He wrote that the Russians were sneaking up and removing mines. As the Germans themselves run into their own fields and die.
      I’m generally silent about the prisoners. It was a war of extermination. Soviet prisoners of war starved, shot, forced to work until she was completely exhausted, and the great mercy of the Soviet people and the country's leadership that they were released alive in Germany.
      1. 0
        April 14 2020 21: 57
        Read Pyltsyn's "The Truth About Penal Battals". It just describes this moment. The author himself fought in the penal battalion as a company or platoon commander, I don't remember.
    3. -1
      April 14 2020 13: 13
      Quote: Snigir
      When we rest against the minefield, our infantry continues the offensive as if it were not there.

      Bring not Amer’s BALTUNA, but memoirs and memoirs of our soldiers, officers and generals about it.

      Or ... everyone died in mines

      ? All 35 млн acting army?
  16. -5
    April 14 2020 08: 40
    It’s time for such things as slander and denigration of our Winners, just put them on a five-year-old for thought and a better understanding of what was happening then.
    1. 0
      April 14 2020 09: 03
      Who's going to plant? Slander about the Soviet period, maniacal criticism of how the Soviet communists and their supporters worked and fought — this is the only justification for the communists' enemies in 30 years for their seizure of the USSR / Russia, their ideology, their "history" of their country. Neither for themselves, nor for what they themselves did - the enemies of the communists have nothing.
  17. -2
    April 14 2020 08: 58
    Quote: Sea Cat
    ... it would be nice to give an example of key battles, numbers, etc.

    And he can only cite as an example the storming of Berlin, where Comrade Zhukov, regardless of any losses, climbed forward to be the first there. "Brilliant" was a strategic operation, and how many lives of our soldiers it cost.

    What else can you expect from a follower of a frontal, ramming strategy. He and Rzhev so stormed almost the entire 42nd year. He laid so many soldiers there in the ground, which even now is not known exactly how many. At the same time, he didn’t take Rzhev
    1. -2
      April 14 2020 10: 31
      And the losses of the Red Army in the Rzhev-Vyazma operation, the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet were just as falsified as in the Berlin operation. Compete with each other - who throws more losses.
      This is the whole ideology of the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people - and slander the USSR and the Soviet people, and create the myth "how these scoops and communed badly, they fought ineffectively", and justify their allies in attacking the USSR and the Soviet people - Hitler and the Nazis.
  18. 0
    April 14 2020 09: 10
    And who was the Chief of the General Staff on June 22.06.41, 41? So who is to blame for the defeat of XNUMX years? Is the Chief of the General Staff not responsible for this? It turns out that he is not a strategist, but mediocrity, a coward and a thief.
    1. 0
      April 16 2020 02: 00
      Let me ask you who was not defeated by the Germans in 1940, by the Japanese in 1941. All were "mediocrity, coward and thief." Or do I aim at the sacred?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. -1
        28 June 2020 22: 05
        dddla? https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru exaggerated glory of the beetle. read and understand.
  19. 0
    April 14 2020 09: 30
    Before throwing mud at Marshal, there are such words, I don't remember the truth from where "but you saw a machine gun or a tank nearby, but did you go on the attack, say?" Sitting in warmth and comfort, you can write any crap about the Great Victory, but none of today's hackers can imagine what it cost every soldier and marshal.
  20. -1
    April 14 2020 09: 31
    Yes, indeed, everyone who feels like talking and writing about Victory Marshal Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov ... Liberals naturally scold, patriots praise ... this is understandable and natural, but I believe that we have a group of absolutely objective experts on the issue: so who was Marshal Zhukov - the most brilliant commander or something directly opposite.
    I mean the professors of the military academies of NATO member countries! I believe that these professors cannot be suspected of loving us, our history, our marshals and generals ...
    We are talking about Zhukov as a marshal, as a commander, but not a diplomat and a connoisseur of etiquette.
    Here comes the question: What do the teachers of the military academies of NATO countries say / write about the military operations of Marshal Zhukov? Do the respective military luminaries of NATO countries recognize the talent and genius of Marshal Zhukov within their subjects?
    1. -1
      28 June 2020 22: 06
      https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru читай
      1. +1
        29 June 2020 07: 31
        Well, first of all, I proposed to voice the opinion of foreign military experts-teachers, scientists about the military talents of Marshal Pobedy, and not a home-grown "whistle-blower", and secondly, I will reveal to you a little secret of good upbringing: in Russia, it is customary to address unfamiliar people with "you ".
  21. -3
    April 14 2020 09: 34
    Personally, I consider Zhukov to be outstanding as a commander. It was not for nothing that Stalin called him "our Suvorov". But as a man, he found himself with all the harmful vices. Khrushchev played on this. And I cannot understand Zhukov, how could he support the scoundrel Khrushchev? And it was his support that changed the history of the development of the USSR.
    "Old age is the result of our life!"
    1. The comment was deleted.
  22. +8
    April 14 2020 10: 22
    Why they hate Marshal Zhukov
    Because it is shamelessly used for their propaganda purposes by everyone, including the state.
    Because instead of the impartial biography of the commander (and that Zhukov was an outstanding commander of the Second World War is recognized all over the world), either thoughtless praise or "sensational" revelations are being produced.
    Because they write about him those who generally can’t write about anyone and who won’t write anything. it turns out a sewage on the fan. The author is a prime example.
    Because on the one hand, a monument is being erected to Zhukov, and on the other, beer bottles are decorated with his portrait. Is a bottle of beer a place for portraits of such people?

    Because the prolonged use of history for propaganda purposes weaned society to perceive its own history as history, as a statement of events in their entirety.
    Society needs opposition, conflict. If there is no “ripping off the veils” or “ripping off the veils from the strippers,” the story is not perceived.
    And this applies not only to Zhukov. This applies to the whole story.
    1. +3
      April 14 2020 11: 23
      Quote: Undecim
      Because the prolonged use of history for propaganda purposes weaned society to perceive its own history as history, as a statement of events in their entirety.

      Depressed plus.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  23. 0
    April 14 2020 10: 49
    One can say only one "Winners are not judged" and the second "Who are the judges?" Usually the judges are "miserable insignificant persons", to quote Panikovsky from the novel "The Golden Calf".
    1. The comment was deleted.
  24. 0
    April 14 2020 12: 20
    Why do they hate? They hate us for our Victory. Zhukov became the personification of Victory, and they, the "Western partners" and the entire rat Bandera army, all of whom they were, remained the same. Defeated enemies. The Germans in no way refuse to recognize Zhukov's victories, because whatever one may say, the Germans are soldiers. But Bandera, they are from around the corner, they just WAIT. Banderas of all stripes Zhukov are like a bone in the throat.
    1. +3
      April 15 2020 16: 49
      Marshal of Victory? Senior, where will they send! Then Mehlis and several from military intelligence kept an eye on him. Zhukov knew that they had an order - in which case, not to be taken out, but to be shot. And the Marshal of Victory was the whole of the USSR. If the factories hadn’t done that, the marshal would have fought throwing bricks? After Zhukov wanted to shoot the division commander for refusing to go on the attack without artillery preparation, Zhukov took out a gun and threatened to kill him. But the commander was not afraid and said, even though you have a lot of stars, and you, as you were a sergeant major, remained so. He immediately cooled down. This was reported to Stalin that he threatened the generals with a pistol, and beat senior officers in the face. Stalin called him to the Politburo and said to everyone - we have a workers 'and peasants' army, not the Tsar’s, draw conclusions. Since then, when leaving for a business trip, Mehlis and several NKVDeshnikov rode with him. Beria suggested that he might run away from the Germans from fear. Then an order was received for those accompanying in some situations - to immediately shoot. Zhukov knew this and tried to stay away from the front line. Suddenly the Germans would go around - this is death.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  25. +4
    April 14 2020 13: 19
    Somewhere in a neighboring state, someone once again deafly and inaudibly farted in our direction ...
    We would not even have heard and we would not have known anything about it if the vigilant Samsonov had not sensed and reproduced us both sound and smell ...
    Question to the author: why didn’t they fully cite Levchenko’s article? At least the reference had to be left, otherwise the person tried. wassat
    But seriously, why not analyze the article in a thesis? Here's a quote - here's a rebuttal. Once you get down to business, do it normally. And it turns out - "once again slandered Zhukov, because they are liars, and liars because they are scoundrels, but in fact Zhukov is good and what they write about him is not true." All.
    I have great respect for the Marshal of Victory, but after this article it just hurts for him. Some people smear his image with dirt, others replicate it intensely, and who will launder it? Not to be considered an attempt to launder today's article, in which there is less information about Zhukov than in the history textbook for elementary school ...
    With such "whiteners" as Samsonov and detractors are not necessary. wassat
    1. +1
      April 14 2020 22: 11
      It is surprising that the person is closer to us - and the degree of scandalous discussion is higher.

      “Walking is slimy
      Under the pebbles is different.
      So, that is close
      We better keep silent ”(c).
    2. The comment was deleted.
  26. Eug
    +3
    April 14 2020 15: 19
    A question to Zhukov's apologists - was everything found in his possession during the search, a train with property from Germany - was it real or invented? I am not talking about purely military successes, but, as for me, he had at least four major failures - an attempt at a counterstrike in the Lutsk-Brody-Kovel triangle, the liberation of Kiev (he and Vatutin repeatedly tried to launch an offensive from the Bukrinsky bridgehead, then they were forced to " castling "TA Lelyushenko from Bukrinsky to the Lyutezhsky bridgehead, our historiography gives it out as a brilliant achievement, there is also a failed Dnieper landing (you can, of course, write off everything on poor training and lack of control on the part of Skripko and Vatutin, but should the chief not know the real preparedness Korsun - Shevchenko's breakthrough of the Germans from the encirclement, the breakthrough of the tank army of Hube to the west (they were waiting for him to the south) from the encirclement during the Proskurovsko-Chernivtsi operation ... So there are spots in the sun, and they should be openly discussed - so the same as about his brilliant successes and the victories of the Soviet people, achieved under his leadership.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      April 14 2020 18: 00
      Quote: Eug
      Question to the apologists for Zhukov — everything that he found during the search, a train with property from Germany — was it real or was it invented?

      The story with the trophies does not paint Zhukov at all, and hardly anyone doubts it. But you yourself think about where the "echelon" came from (and this is at least 20-30 freight cars), which could be unloaded and delivered to the official dacha of those times. Can you imagine that this could be? I do not believe this, I think that the story with the "echelon" was invented by his ill-wishers, according to the decree of Stalin, who decided to lower the arrogant Marshal of Victory a little. This version was not considered?
      1. Eug
        +1
        April 14 2020 18: 41
        It seems that everything spun from the report of the railway customs. And unload and deliver - I see no problems, transportation under the guise of special cargo, etc. I have never met any refutation on this issue, although I have been interested in it for about 20 years. If opinions on purely military events are different, then on acquisitions, in addition to refuting emotions, I did not find anything, although I am always interested in different opinions.
    3. 0
      April 15 2020 17: 18
      Quote: Eug
      he had at least four major failures -

      the main failure is the defeat of the tank troops of the Red Army by forming the 21MK in the spring of 41 ... request
      1. 0
        April 15 2020 18: 15
        Quote: ser56
        the main failure is the defeat of the tank troops of the Red Army by forming the 21MK in the spring of 41 ...

        You can’t draw Zhukov to this in any way - he only performed what was planned before him. He could only express his opinion as an NGS and achieve a redistribution of allocated equipment for the districts in the 2nd quarter, and in this he was limited due to the fact that other deputy commissars and commanders of the armed forces were responsible for this.
        1. 0
          April 15 2020 20: 15
          Quote: ccsr
          he only did what was planned before him.

          with his character? bully I note - in the memoir he did not say a word about this, but he said that they were mistaken with the capabilities of the military industry ... hi
          1. 0
            April 16 2020 12: 07
            Quote: ser56
            with his character?

            At his post in the first place - he was just the newly appointed deputy commissar and did not have the right to give orders to other deputies and the commander of the armed forces, not to mention the NKVMF.
            Quote: ser56
            but that they were mistaken with the capabilities of the military industry, he said ...

            He said this in his memoirs many years after the war, and when he was appointed, he had no idea what was planned for 1941 before him by the government of our country of industry. So I emphasize once again that you need to be careful about your memoirs.
            1. 0
              April 16 2020 12: 36
              Quote: ccsr
              he was just the newly appointed deputy commissar and did not have the right to order other deputies and the commander of the armed forces, not to mention the NKVMF.

              and his fleet was not interested - see Kuznetsov’s memoirs request as for the rest - these are your fantasies ...
              The main advantage of the GKZH is its will!

              Quote: ccsr
              be careful to approach the memoirs.

              like lying? hi
              Quote: ccsr
              he had no idea what was planned for 1941 before him by the government of our industrial country

              you have a strange understanding of the performance of duties beg. Uh ... request Did his assistants all disappear too? Documents?
              1. 0
                April 16 2020 13: 09
                Quote: ser56
                and his fleet was not interested - see Kuznetsov’s memoirs

                The fleet was not subordinate to the people's commissar of defense on the eve of the war - have you heard about this? How could Zhukov get into the affairs of the fleet?

                Quote: ser56
                The main advantage of the GKZH is its will!

                You never know the psychology of those who first come to the People’s Commissariat of Defense to serve, so believe in fairy tales. Zhukov’s will appeared after Stalin gave him powers, and he could have, after the defeat of the KOVO, had he not been moved to the General Staff, repeated the fate of Kirponos, and then hell would have been remembered as a commander who led to the Victory.

                Quote: ser56
                like lying?

                Exaggerates his merits and understates his mistakes - I would put it that way.
                Quote: ser56
                you have a strange understanding of the performance of duties beg. GS.

                Have you yourself at least once stood on the threshold of the General Staff in order to talk about how they understand something? I think no...
                1. -1
                  April 16 2020 13: 19
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Have you heard about this? How could Zhukov get into the affairs of the fleet?

                  trite, sorry you didn’t read - interaction on the flanks, etc. -that is what Kuznetsov writes ... I note - in the USSR ...
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You never know the psychology of those who first come to the People’s Commissariat of Defense to serve, so believe in fairy tales.

                  I will answer politely - you are a military psychologist or were the beginning. GSh SA?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Zhukov’s will appeared after Stalin gave him powers,

                  so he shot in batches on HG? I recommend not broadcasting your fantasies, but studying the facts ... hi
                  Quote: ccsr
                  repeat the fate of Kirponos,

                  and what is wrong? Killed in battles for the Motherland - honor and memory!
                  Quote: ccsr
                  and downplaying their mistakes

                  however, on the topic under discussion about MK spoke for sure ... request
                  Quote: ccsr
                  I think no...

                  I am in a different department, but all systems work on the same principles ... hi
                  1. 0
                    April 16 2020 13: 38
                    Quote: ser56
                    trite, sorry you didn’t read - interaction on the flanks, etc. - what Kuznetsov writes about ...

                    Before you interact, you need to coordinate, and this alone posed so many problems that you never dreamed of. So it is not in vain that after the war the fleet was again returned to the subordination of the Moscow Region.
                    Quote: ser56
                    I will answer politely - you are a military psychologist or were the beginning. GSh SA?

                    I studied military psychology during my studies, but I had a chance to serve in the General Staff, which is why I immediately calculate many verbiage from their enchanting statements.
                    Quote: ser56
                    so he shot in batches on HG?

                    They were shot at the verdict of a military tribunal - even Zhukov had no right to order the execution of someone without trial. You’ll tell someone else about the packs of executed people, although I know that some were brought to trial precisely by order of Zhukov. But this was done not only by Zhukov, but also by other military leaders during the war.
                    Quote: ser56
                    however, on the topic under discussion about MK spoke accurately.

                    After the war or before it began? Maybe give a link to the pre-war document with his statements on this subject?
                    Quote: ser56
                    I am in a different department, but all systems work on the same principles ..

                    In theory, yes, but in practice, even power structures have big differences in the principle of acquisition. And the cadres decide everything, as the leader of the peoples taught us.
                    1. -1
                      April 16 2020 13: 55
                      Quote: ccsr
                      you need to agree, but this alone posed so many problems that you never dreamed

                      1) if you do not agree, then there will be a mess, but the fleet wanted ... request
                      2) as I understand it, that the inner rudeness of the boots is inescapable? hi you can’t even imagine what I saw and know .. feel
                      Quote: ccsr
                      but I’ve been able to serve in the General Staff, that’s why I immediately calculate many verbiage from their enchanting statements

                      always cries of petty clerks about omniscience ... when he was at the Academy. Dzerzhinsky watched the general’s office - the tunic was hanging on the wall - there was no space under the closet ... laughing
                      Quote: ccsr
                      even Zhukov had no right to order the execution of someone without trial

                      there are documents, read ...
                      Quote: ccsr
                      After the war or before it began? Maybe give a link to the pre-war document with his statements on this subject?

                      looking for brains from boots is useless! bully read his memoir, and all pre-war documents had a signature stamp, declassified or not - I don’t know ...
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And the cadres decide everything, as the leader of the peoples taught us.

                      That is why a club with 4 cells of general education and military courses is the most suitable candidate for the beginning. GS Red Army request This is about the personnel policy of the person you are quoting ... hi
                      1. 0
                        April 16 2020 14: 47
                        Quote: ser56
                        you can’t even imagine what I saw and know ..

                        In military service or where? And it’s not entirely clear, maybe you can explain to dentists how to treat your teeth.
                        Quote: ser56
                        when he was at the Academy. Dzerzhinsky watched the general’s office

                        Did you work there as a floor polisher? By the way, in educational institutions there are always problems with the premises, so the example is not indicative.
                        Quote: ser56
                        read his memoir, and all pre-war documents had a signature stamp, declassified or not - I don’t know ...

                        You will draw a pre-war picture from his memoirs, but as I understand it, you cannot imagine anything serious from the documents.
                        Quote: ser56
                        That is why a club with 4 cells of general education and military courses is the most suitable candidate for the beginning. GS Red Army

                        I can’t assess the correctness of the decisions made by Stalin then, but I think he was no more stupid than you, although I personally think that Zhukov was not yet ready for the post of the NSS in the beginning of 1941.
                        Quote: ser56
                        ) I understand that the inner rudeness of the boots is inescapable?

                        With respect to deletants trying to teach military professionals - always.
                      2. -2
                        April 16 2020 16: 28
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Did you work there as a floor polisher?

                        you show your stupidity to the public? bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        but as I understand it, you can’t imagine anything serious from the documents.
                        you have a classic of demagoguery - to you the memoirs of the beg. General Staff of the Red Army before the war is not a pointer ... bully Do you need documents ... Do you think that when writing memoirs, the GKZh did not request documents? the right words - the clown ... crying
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I can’t evaluate the correctness of the decisions made by Stalin then

                        if it's not a secret - what is stopping you? When making a decision, could the IVS request a private matter?
                        1) re-read the certification of Rokossovsky to the GKZh regiment, there it is written directly about the staff work ...
                        2) to assess the level of education of the State Committee for Housing, even if it’s a purely military one - well, it’s clearly not rolling ...
                        3) evaluate the performance of the GZ service — purely team experience — does not know how the staffs work ...
                        4) Evaluate the horizons of the GKZh - primary education is primary, does not even have a tendency to write scientific papers on tactics, I'm not talking about military theory request
                        5) Compare HMS on all counts? Yes, the same Egorov? hi

                        Quote: ccsr
                        although I personally believe that Zhukov at the beginning of 1941 was not yet ready for the post of the NSS.

                        and he was not ready for the rest of his life ... request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In respect deletantstrying to teach military professionals - always.

                        Quote: ccsr
                        I immediately calculate many verbiage

                        1) turn your ardor on yourself!
                        2) employees of the General Staff of the SA look funny, who write so competently ... so you are a controversial pro, did you command a commandant platoon or a garage ... hi
                        3) I have some military education, officer rank feel
                      3. 0
                        April 16 2020 18: 35
                        Quote: ser56
                        When making a decision, could the IVS request a private matter?
                        1) re-read the certification of Rokossovsky to the GKZh regiment, there it is written directly about the staff work ...

                        Rokossovsky himself only recently got out of prison, so that Stalin might not have paid attention to his certification, especially since Zhukov was the commander of the KOVO. And in general, I doubt that Stalin studied Zhukov's personal file before the war. Tymoshenko personally reported to him on the candidacy, and he made a decision - so it was made at that level.
                        Quote: ser56
                        evaluate the performance of GZ service — purely team experience — does not know how staffs work ...

                        In fact, many NGSs had just team experience behind them. For example, Akhromeev commanded a tank army and was the first deputy commander of the district before getting into the general staff.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Compare HMS on all counts? Yes, the same Egorov?
                        You will compare it with Yegorov, since you didn’t find it smarter, but Shaposhnikov was an outstanding NSS, and few people compare with him in our history of the XNUMXth century. But this is not the point, but the fact that I am sure that Zhukov was not moved by Stalin, but Tymoshenko, although I could be wrong.
                        Quote: ser56
                        and he was not ready for the rest of his life ...

                        He took up a higher position - so the NHS is only the stage of his entire career.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I have some military education, officer rank

                        In our country, some housewives have it, especially if they had a medical education. So burn on, you're funny when you puff out your cheeks.
                      4. -2
                        April 16 2020 19: 05
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Tymoshenko personally reported to him on the candidacy, and he made a decision - so it was made at that level.

                        You are mistaken ...
                        Quote: ccsr
                        For example, Akhromeev commanded a tank army

                        "In 1967 he graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces. From July 1967 to October 1968 Chief of Staff - First Deputy Commander of the 8th Tank Army. "
                        you listen so he
                        Quote: ccsr
                        they had behind them just team experience.
                        and 4 classes ... hi
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You will compare with Egorov, since you haven’t found smarter,

                        you demonstrate your poor education - no more request Egorov was after HMS and the beginning of it. General Staff of the Red Army - from 31 -37 ... hi
                        in addition, he had a normal general (He graduated from the Samara classical gymnasium in 1901.) and military education "Graduated from the first category (with honors) Kazan infantry cadet school, where he studied in 1902-1905," Combat officer of WW1, had pedagogical experience and staff experience - "was transferred to the Tiflis Grand Duke Mikhail Nikolaevich military school, where he taught military science at accelerated courses, graduating warrant officers [1], while being an assistant to the head of the school. On August 21, 1916, he was appointed acting headquarters officer for instructions from the headquarters of the 2nd Caucasian Cavalry Corps [", had experience in mobilization work -" Since January 1918 he worked in the Military Department of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee. ", commanded the associations, was an attaché and again worked in the higher mobilization authorities - so that he was ready for service in the General Staff ... by the way - he created the General Staff!
                        Quote: ccsr
                        He took a higher position

                        therefore, he was engaged in uniforms ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        So burn on, you're funny when you puff out your cheeks.

                        how amusing you are in your ignorance, like a GS officer ... bully So pom. commandant or pompoteha served? bully
                      5. 0
                        April 16 2020 19: 21
                        Quote: ser56
                        You are mistaken ...

                        How do you prove it?
                        Quote: ser56
                        In 1967 he graduated from the Military Academy of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces. From July 1967 to October 1968 chief of staff - first deputy commander of the 8th Tank Army. "

                        This is the stage of his career, and he did not leave this position for the General Staff - however, for you this is a Chinese letter.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Egorov was after HMS and the beginning of it. General Staff of the Red Army - from 31 -37 ...

                        And what follows from this, if he did not distinguish himself in this post, and even talked drunk excessively?
                        Quote: ser56
                        how funny you are in your ignorance

                        All your opponents are "illiterate" here, but everything is exactly the opposite.
                        Quote: ser56
                        So pom. commandant or pompoteha served?

                        Your denseness does not surprise me, floor polisher, but you continue to grimace, it will not leave you.
                      6. -2
                        April 16 2020 20: 23
                        Quote: ccsr
                        How do you prove it?

                        corny - at this level the IVS itself made a decision - there are many confirmations to that .. request
                        .
                        Quote: ccsr
                        However, for you this is a Chinese letter.

                        I corrupted you in ignorance request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        and chatted drunk excessively?

                        Did you hold a glass? you seem to be from the political ... bully
                        Quote: ccsr
                        All your opponents here are "illiterate"

                        what to do is the norm ... the masses of people are poorly educated request
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Your denseness does not surprise me, polisher

                        Usually such hatred of the right professions at the upstairs ... request
                        The level of your education and presentation style is not suitable for an officer of the main departments of the General Staff, so you are either a political worker or from the rear services ... hi
                      7. 0
                        April 17 2020 11: 44
                        Quote: ser56
                        corny - at this level the IVS itself made a decision - there are many confirmations to that ..

                        He made the decision on the basis of what information he received about the nominee - Stalin could not know everyone thoroughly, which is why he trusted the selection of personnel to his like-minded people.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I corrupted you in ignorance

                        Ignorance of what?
                        Quote: ser56
                        Did you hold a glass? you seem to be from the political ...

                        You are just verbiage, which I have known for a long time.
                        Quote: ser56
                        what to do is the norm ... the masses of people are poorly educated

                        What is your military education, if you famously represent yourself as a commander?
                        Quote: ser56
                        The level of your education and presentation style is not suitable for an officer of the main departments of the General Staff, so you are either a political worker or from the rear services ...

                        You are just a racket, and no more, and lying too much, and it catches the eye.
                      8. -1
                        April 17 2020 15: 23
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You are just a racket, and no more, and lying too much, and it catches the eye.

                        it seems I guessed with a political worker ... bully
                      9. -1
                        April 17 2020 17: 29
                        Quote: ser56
                        it seems I guessed with a political worker ...

                        Past the box office, a jacket.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  27. -4
    April 14 2020 15: 43
    Bastards. These are all echoes of the works of "Suvorov" that is Rezun. such a surname zapped.
    ZHUKOV is a great commander. And no matter how hard their hangers-on try to defame Zhukov’s name, they won’t succeed.
    1. +1
      April 15 2020 18: 01
      Quote: fkmdtn62
      And no matter how hard their hangers-on try to defame Zhukov’s name, they won’t succeed.

      is this the only argument? read ...
      "In the summer of 1946, a meeting of the Supreme Military Council took place, at which the case of Marshal Zhukov was examined based on the materials of the interrogation of the Chief Marshal of Aviation A. A. Novikov, who was arrested before that by the state security authorities in the" case of aviators. "Zhukov was accused of misappropriating trophies and inflating his merits in the defeat of Hitler with personal wordingand I. V. Stalin "appropriated the development of operations to which he had nothing to do." hi
  28. 0
    April 14 2020 19: 27
    Quote: Unknown
    Zhukov’s personality is not simple, and it’s impossible to make a hero from him. When you read, memories and thoughts, he really is a hero from heroes, and you start reading Marshal Aviation Golovanov, or Marshal Rokossovsky, Army General Gorbatov, and immediately there appears a completely non-heroic image of a beetle. and the inventory of a search in his country house and at home, generally characterizes him as a grabber and grabber. he also did not suffer from the modesty of beetles, and the sovereign repeatedly pointed out this to him. already with the WWI war, it was clear that the war was won by the one with a strong economy and rear, while the generals themselves were already secondarily. and if, by right, it is considered to whom they owe victory, then everything is clear- Comrade STALIN. if you look at how the current one is trying to cope with the virus, and how it does, the comparison is clearly not in favor of the latter. in difficult times, another, decisive ruler is needed, then there will be performers, like the beetles, and victory, as they said earlier, will be theirs.

    ..hah I also heard a '' funny '' story .. as during a search at the dacha of Marshal of Victory .. 55 (..hah FIFTY FIVE CARL !!!) trophy bicycle pumps were found .. (well, on .. so many bikes, not a single one was found ..) funny .. that's why I remember ..
    1. 0
      April 15 2020 18: 44
      Well, listen to a funny story about 55-bike pumps, no need. you just need to take an interest in the Zhukov’s case, since it is on the Internet, and draw conclusions yourself. and the figure is 55, it’s present in the case, but not the pumps ........... For example: woolen fabrics, silk, brocade, pan-velvet and other materials - just over 4000 meters; furs - sable, monkey, fox, fur seals, astrakhan, astrakhan fur - a total of 323 skins;

      top quality chevro - 35 leathers; expensive large-sized carpets and tapestries, exported from Potsdam and other palaces and houses in Germany - a total of 44 pieces ... valuable paintings of classical paintings of large sizes in the artistic framework - a total of 55 pieces, hung in rooms and partially stored in the warehouse;

      expensive sets, tableware and tea utensils (porcelain with artistic decoration, crystal) - 7 large boxes; silver cutlery and tea sets - 2 drawers; richly decorated accordions - 8 pieces; unique hunting rifles of the company Goland-Goland and others - only 20 pieces ........... as you can see, we are talking about paintings. beetles was a big fan of painting, what can I say. it’s not necessary to make of Zhukov - George the Victorious, it will not work, not that person. he is a good, intelligent, performer and all. not capable of anything more, and all of his throwing, to Khrushchev, and from Khrushchev, speak of his qualities inculcated in the tsarist army at a school of non-commissioned officers. those who are currently in power, closer to that, have removed him, so you can spit in the back.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  29. 0
    April 14 2020 19: 58
    And who hates him? Liberals, neo-Nazis of Ukraine and Georgia. Profits. I never heard anything bad about this MAN from war veterans.
  30. -3
    April 14 2020 21: 31
    "He showed himself as a person who can manage large masses of people." - Very accurately! Many do not understand what a huge work, what kind of science of command and control of troops, the feeling of troops - it is akin to the ability of a highly qualified conductor to rule a huge orchestra, but the commander's "orchestra" is not only people in greatcoats from privates to generals, it is intelligence and a lot of equipment, supplying ammunition, fuel, clothing, food ..., communications, ... This is a huge responsibility. This is something that the premature general of the army Pavlov and many others could not demonstrate. Some learned through someone else's and their own blood - others ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
  31. -3
    April 14 2020 22: 41
    The main reason for hitting Zhukov is that he is Russian by nationality. Marshal of Victory and Russian. It would be Malinovsky, Rokosovsky would have arranged it to poke in the face twenty years later, that you even Ivanov non-Russian commander.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  32. +2
    April 15 2020 06: 33
    Zhukov’s personality is very controversial, like so many in those days. For him testifies that Stalin himself considered him necessary. Why - it is not clear, but geniuses do not think like ordinary mortals. Maybe in some very closed archives there is an explanation, and someday they will open it. And if Stalin did not trust such thoughts with paper and kept it in his head, this went with Stalin to a place from which, unfortunately, they did not return. But what was needed was obvious. Zhukov had many failures, such that Stalin shot him for less, but he got it. And the fact that in Germany junked not even by trucks, but by wagons, also came down. Do not consider the appointment of the commander of the Odessa district for punishment.
    But everything that he did after the death of Stalin, history will not forgive. First of all, a military coup on June 26, 1953 and the assassination of Beria. And the fact that, along with Khrushchev, heaped a bunch of excrement on the grave of Stalin. Well, Khrushch’s support at the plenum, when Stalin’s comrades-in-arms Molotov, Malenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov, who joined them, tried, in a completely legal way, to dismiss Khrushch in 1957, also of the kind of military coup that removed the majority of the Politburo from power under the threat of military force. And how much less harm would Khrushchev cause the country if it had been removed in 1957, 7 years before it was removed anyway in 1964!
    And the fact that Khrushch soon sent Zhukov on a visit to Yugoslavia, where he departed as an all-powerful Narshal, Minister of Defense, and a member of the Politburo, and returned as a retired marshal with a uniform stained with a Central Committee decree that Zhukov was guilty of "lowering the level of party political work," is a grin of history.
    1. AAK
      -2
      April 15 2020 08: 53
      I completely agree, colleague! Decent and objective
    2. The comment was deleted.
  33. 0
    April 15 2020 08: 52
    The monument to Zhukov at Red Square was cut by his own, citizens of the Russian Federation. Or were they agents of the State Department? Punishment anyone suffered?
  34. +1
    April 15 2020 09: 45
    By the way, in the post-war film "Stalingrad" there is not a single word about Zhukov at all - only Stalin and Vasilevsky
    1. The comment was deleted.
  35. 0
    April 15 2020 10: 41
    Quote: Octopus
    Well, a rating of minus 13 thousand shows that offending me is quite difficult))

    For a site where most commentators are sincerely convinced that the USSR was ruined by the traitor Gorbachev (a superpower with the strongest intelligence agencies!), This is a very excellent result!
  36. -2
    April 15 2020 11: 26
    Unfortunately, the start of denigrating our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the Gorbachev era.
    1. -1
      April 15 2020 18: 26
      Quote: Yuri Siritsky
      Unfortunately, the start of denigrating our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the Gorbachev era.

      No, the start of the blackening of our history as a whole was given by the so-called communists of the times of Khrushchov. Who piled excrement on Stalin’s grave? Who meanly killed Beria and everyone, including his own, put dogs on him? And comrade Zhukov, too, personally put a paw to this all.
  37. +1
    April 15 2020 13: 51
    I can also notice the times of the mid 70s of the last century, whoever I asked about Zhukov, because there were his memoirs, from the tankman to the infantryman everyone said - he came, so our blood will spill. For the sake of pleasure, he will drive on machine guns and guns without regard to losses. But they talked about Rokossovsky - he felt sorry for the soldier, but he did not spare the shells. Stalin knew that Zhukov would not spare anyone, because of the fault of 1941. After all, he conducted military exercises and went on the offensive in the way the Germans went, but for some reason he was waiting for them in Ukraine.
  38. -1
    April 15 2020 15: 23
    And why did they shoot Pavlov and his red commanders? For the fact that he carried out the orders of Stalin and Zhukov? And how many millions of rifles and other weapons got to the Germans on the border in 1941? And the surrender of 3,5 million people in 1941? Is this great planning? After all, he was the chief of the General Staff. Although, in fairness, it is worth noting that Stalin and his closest associates, Zhukov, carried out their orders.
    1. 0
      April 15 2020 15: 53
      Why shoot Pavlov and his reds

      Not why, but for what. For the loss of Minsk.
      And yes, it was necessary to attack first.
      1. -1
        April 15 2020 16: 07
        Quote: strannik1985
        For the loss of Minsk.

        Why then was Zhukov not shot "for the loss of Minsk"?
        1. 0
          April 15 2020 16: 12
          Why then

          Then you need to plant the entire NPO in bulk and GKO up to and including Stalin.
          1. +1
            April 15 2020 17: 15
            Quote: strannik1985
            When you need to plant the entire NPO in bulk and GKO

            or no one, but the IVS turned the arrows to the "traitors", and he himself remained innocent ... request
            and still what
            1. 0
              April 15 2020 17: 24
              or nobody

              In what? The fact that he did not want to attack Germany ???
              1. 0
                April 15 2020 17: 35
                Quote: strannik1985
                In what?

                corny - that the Red Army did not meet an organized enemy! There were enough forces and means ...
                Quote: strannik1985
                didn’t want to attack Germany ???

                1) if it’s not a secret - why not attack Germany if there is no other way?
                2) a hit in Hitler’s back in mid-May 1940 would save 20 million Soviet citizens — is that not enough for you? And the beginning of the French campaign of conspiracy in the West could no longer be, but the prospect of being left face to face with Hitler became real ... hi This is to the question of the genius of temporary detention facilities, in a similar situation in 1914, Russians began to attack ...
                1. 0
                  April 16 2020 05: 19
                  There were enough forces and means

                  Unfortunately, no.
                  1) if not a secret, why not

                  Stalin did not know that he had no other choice. Especially in May 1940. It has recently become clear that the level of training of all the Red Army infantry must be urgently pulled up, there are no mobile troops as such, the Air Force is under reorganization, the aviation and tank industries are similar. Moreover, the French and British are not friends at all to us, our entry into the war does not mean at all that we will become allies.
                  1. -1
                    April 16 2020 12: 32
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Unfortunately, no.

                    another unproven mantra - tell me again that the tanks were outdated ... bully
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Stalin did not know that he had no other choice.

                    this is a commonplace strategy ... request I agree that in this ITT there was a layman, so the defeat of 1941 was a consequence of this request
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    that the training level of the entire infantry of the Red Army needs to urgently be tightened, there are no mobile troops as such, the Air Force

                    not too lazy to repeat nonsense? the army is always in such a process ... by the way - why for 20 years of peacetime the Red Army was not brought to a reasonable state? Whose fault ?
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    the British are not friends at all to us, our entry into the war does not mean at all that we will become allies.

                    are you so blinkered? where does the category of friends? The enemy of my enemy is my ally a priori ... request
                    1. 0
                      April 16 2020 12: 45
                      another unproven

                      Count echelons, nothing is simpler.
                      this is commonplace

                      Politicians, in the summer of 1939, the British and French clearly showed their intentions, i.e. in a possible conflict, the USSR can rely only on itself.
                      not too lazy to repeat nonsense?

                      A mobile association was created as a mechanized corps for the first time, exactly since June 1940. The war without mechanized corps is a repetition of the fall of 1941.
                      The military theorists are to blame, the normal process, the French were similar, much worse among the British and Americans.
                      The enemy of my enemy

                      In terms of??? Let the Germans go to Moscow so that the so-called allies are afraid of the possible defeat of the USSR and begin to provide assistance? And what is the positive meaning of the strategy?
                      1. 0
                        April 16 2020 13: 04
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Count echelons, nothing is simpler.

                        count ur, tanks, etc hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Politicians, in the summer of 1939, the British and French clearly showed their intentions, i.e. in a possible conflict, the USSR can rely only on itself.

                        1) Far from it - they simply did not believe the USSR after the Brest Peace ...
                        2) we are talking about May 1940 - the situation is different - there is a war in the West ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        mobile association as a mechanized corps was created for the first time

                        learn the history of the Red Army - corps since 1932
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The war without mechanized corps is a repetition of the fall of 1941.

                        nonsense, we have 9KK, with s28 tanks in each ... and the German has 20 hastily formed divisions in the East and without tanks / planes request

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        In terms of??

                        direct - Churchill on June 22 proclaimed an alliance with the USSR, in May 40 it was the same ...

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        And what is the positive meaning of the strategy?

                        Removes illusions! Potentials are important, not intentions - i.e. words ... request
                      2. 0
                        April 16 2020 13: 04
                        Quote: ser56
                        s28

                        128 - an eyepiece request
                      3. 0
                        April 16 2020 13: 21
                        count ur, tanks, etc.

                        Stupidity, it makes no sense to consider armament in non-mobilized divisions in the RPM throughout the territory of western military units. Even the cover armies were located with regiments and battalions at a distance of up to 60 (some up to 100 km) from the border (for example, the 5th KOVO army).
                        1) Far from it

                        What is the difference what are the reasons? They themselves do not want to fight, even the closest ally leaked.
                        teach

                        Mutually. This compound, an analogue of the division.
                        nonsense

                        Wrong look laughing KK and in the summer of 1941 flashed very relatively. The German AK (mot) is not only tanks, three divisions of field artillery regiments and 3-4 corps divisions from 105-mm guns to 210-mm mortars. The western front will freeze again in a strange war, and the spacecraft will have to fight to the fullest. If there is a suddenness, the barrier will be swept away, and then?
                        direct

                        And he praised the Soviet soldier for his stamina good The first relatively massive deliveries on LL began only on December 28, 1941.
                      4. -1
                        April 16 2020 14: 12
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Stupidity, it makes no sense to consider armament in non-mobilized divisions in the RPM throughout the territory of western military units. Even the cover armies were located with regiments and battalions at a distance of up to 60 (some up to 100 km) from the border (for example, the 5th KOVO army).

                        Quote: ser56
                        in that the Red Army did not meet an organized enemy! There were enough forces and means ...

                        I strongly recommend not to lose the thread of the conversation ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        What is the difference what are the reasons? They themselves do not want to fight, even the closest ally leaked.

                        1) the reasons are important so that there are no bald accusations. Just a question - would you trust the partner who betrayed you? hi
                        2) It is not for us to reproach England - it fought one-on-one for a year with the Germans and with dignity ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Mutually. This compound, an analogue of the division.

                        MK structure is another question ... bully said nonsense - do not translate the arrows ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        KK and in the summer of 1941 flashed very relatively.

                        on the defensive, but on the offensive in winter - on the contrary! And Dovator and Belov ...
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The German AK (mot) is not only tanks, three divisions of field artillery regiments and 3-4 corps divisions from 105-mm guns to 210-mm mortars.

                        you're funny, take offense at the rubbish and write it again ... request All these miracle corps were in France, they must be taken out of the battle, loaded, transferred, unloaded ... and where will the Red Army KK be at that time? request I think on the Vistula bully Yes, and a stupid question - where is the son-in-law fuel, engines, outfits, etc. Everything was spent in France, no trophies, Romania is not an ally ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        If there is a suddenness, the barrier will be swept away, and then?

                        and then the mobilization of the Red Army, and without loss of mob reserves bully to be exact, Hitler’s generals will strangle ...
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        only began on December 28, 1941.

                        "Dervish convoy departed from Iceland on August 21, 1941; arrived in Arkhangelsk on August 31"
                        learn factology ... before the time you indicated, 5 Arctic convoys arrived
                      5. 0
                        April 16 2020 14: 45
                        highly recommend

                        Can you tell me what help, for example, can be provided to combatants in the Brest region by 4 SDs located in Minsk and its environs?
                        1) Reasons are important

                        They have nothing to do with the desire to fight in 1939-1940. The allies do not want to fight, even to the point of "suicide" (the state of affairs by May 1940).
                        MK structure

                        The corps of 1932 is a compound, the corps of 1941 is a union (3 divisions). You expose yourself as a fool, not me.
                        you are funny

                        This is you funny. First, aircraft will be thrown against the advancing parts of the spacecraft, taking into account the organizational structure of the Air Force and the depth of the offensive, at best there will be a struggle over air cavalry over the cavalry, in the worst, the aviators will lag behind with all the consequences. 20-30 divisions will be left against the allies, and the rest will be sent against us.
                        convoy dervish

                        What exactly in the phrase "relatively massive" do not you understand?
                      6. -2
                        April 16 2020 16: 14
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Do not tell me what help

                        1) bast-bast, start from the beginning ... bully
                        2) I’m talking about this - the unorganized entry of the Red Army into the war ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        They have nothing to do with the desire to fight in 1939-1940.

                        I repeat, the British fought when we had a friendship with Hitler ... request
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The corps of 1932 is a compound, the corps of 1941 is a union (3 divisions). Myself a fool expose, not me.

                        1) You are illiterate in military affairs request
                        2) Unification is an ARMY and higher .. request
                        "Corps is a large military compound, consisting of other formations (divisions, brigades), as well as units and subunits of various types of troops. "
                        3) I do not expect an apology, I presume in advance that you are not raised hi

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        20-30 divisions will be left against the allies, and the rest will be sent against us.

                        everything is clear with you - you do not understand anything in logistics ... bully
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        What exactly in the phrase "relatively massive" do not you understand?

                        what about? hi
                        Dervish - 6TP, PQ-1 - 11t, PQ-2 - 7t, PQ-3 - 8t, PQ-4 - 8t ... total 40t, roughly 200 tons of cargo - a trifle? bully
                      7. 0
                        April 16 2020 16: 38
                        1) bast

                        Without a desire to attack, it could not have been otherwise; on the other side of the border, until April-May 1941, it was the same.
                        I repeat

                        Because Hitler went from a strange war to a normal one. The Germans started, not the British.
                        Association is an ARMY

                        And what is a tank army arr. 1943-1945, are you our multi-literate? laughing
                        everything is clear with you

                        The fact that in Germany and Poland the railway network is better than in the USSR ???
                        200 000 tons of cargo

                        Against the background of the advance for the first three weeks of the war by 445-627 km, the loss of 2/3 of weapons, 52 million shells and mines for six months of the war is a trifle.
                      8. -2
                        April 16 2020 16: 42
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        you are our literate

                        Quote: ser56
                        I assume in advance that you are not raised

                        I don’t see any reason to discuss further - you don’t know anything and don’t want to study ... request
                      9. 0
                        April 16 2020 16: 49
                        to debate

                        What a pity, but I thought you would tell me what the similarities between the mechanized corps arr. 1932 and 1940 laughing
                      10. -1
                        April 16 2020 17: 04
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        what is the similarity of the mechanized corps

                        corny is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough ... request
                      11. 0
                        April 16 2020 17: 12
                        corny

                        And the fact that one of the three brigades consists, and the other of the three divisions (like the TA sample 1945) does not bother you ???
                      12. -2
                        April 16 2020 17: 23
                        no, brigades are also formations ... request be surprised, but in WWII the corps and the army could consist of 5 divisions at different times - see the article about the assault on Poznan ... request
                        in addition, in the Red Army there was an old rule - mechanized troops have bonuses for command due to the name one step ahead of the strength - a lot of equipment.
                      13. 0
                        April 16 2020 17: 31
                        no, brigades are also formations ...

                        If it has separate battalions, with a banner and other crap. Administratively, not as much as possible. Attention is the question: why did you equalize MK model 1932 and 1940 according to possibilities? wink
                      14. -2
                        April 16 2020 17: 54
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        e in than the similaritiesabout mechanized corps arr. 1932 and 1940 laughing

                        Quote: ser56
                        it is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough.

                        Quote: strannik1985
                        why did you equalize MK arr. 1932 and 1940 according to possibilities?

                        mow under a sharpie? bully opportunities and challenges are different ... hi
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        If it has separate battalions, with a banner and other crap.

                        nonsense ... a priori formations brigade ... the last part is a regiment, the last part is a corps ..

                        it’s boring with you - I didn’t hire you to teach, good luck ... wink
                      15. +1
                        April 16 2020 18: 27
                        mow under a sharpie?

                        Well you, this is your privilege wink
                        A mobile group can be anything, up to a rifle regiment on attached cars. First of all, MK 1940 from 1932 is distinguished by opportunities, you are our competent laughing
                        delirium

                        You have in ... education. Tell us how the motorized rifle regiment differs from the MSBr whose battalions are not separate? laughing
                      16. -3
                        April 16 2020 18: 39
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        Moving group

                        Quote: ser56
                        it is a mobile connection for the development of success in the depths of the enemy's defense after its breakthrough.

                        you are stupid but arrogant ... request
                      17. +1
                        April 16 2020 18: 43
                        You're stupid

                        Of course, a first-grader student.
                        The difference between SMEs and SMEs, explain "smart"? laughing
                      18. -3
                        April 16 2020 19: 08
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        The difference between SMEs and SMEs explain "smart"

                        what for? you are an ordinary, not trained, you need a drill and charters ...
                      19. +1
                        April 16 2020 19: 10
                        What for?

                        Believe me, a discussion of my humble personality will not close your ignorance of the materiel. Many thanks good
                      20. -3
                        April 16 2020 20: 17
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        your ignorance of materiel will not close.

                        you have solid gaps even at this level request The structure and staffing of the troops have nothing to do with the material part ... request
                      21. +1
                        April 17 2020 11: 47
                        Quote: ser56
                        The structure and staffing of the troops have nothing to do with the material part ...

                        No need to lie "expert" - in the report card to the state just all the weapons and equipment are spelled out. Why are you lying about something you don't know at all?
                      22. -3
                        April 17 2020 15: 24
                        Quote: ccsr
                        in the report card to the state just all the weapons and equipment are registered.

                        Does the time sheet relate to the description of the technique? do you have a self-prop, politruk? bully
                      23. 0
                        April 17 2020 17: 38
                        Quote: ser56
                        Does the time sheet relate to the description of the technique?

                        You will always remain a jacket, because strannik1985 speaking about materiel he meant something completely different, and everyone who served in the army immediately understood what he meant by these words. And only you, by the simplicity of your heart, did not catch the sarcasm in his words - burn further about everything you know, but do not try to impress those who understand what is at stake. He did not talk about the description of the technique - you demonstrated your illiteracy. By the way, it is the new technology and weapons that can lead to a change in the states - "teach materiel", now I am telling you this to understand how all this is interconnected.
                      24. +1
                        April 16 2020 18: 44
                        Quote: ser56
                        1) You are illiterate in military affairs
                        2) Unification is an ARMY and higher ..
                        "A corps is a large military formation, consisting of other formations (divisions, brigades), as well as units and subunits of various types of troops."


                        I don’t know where your fount of wisdom is located, but there is a Soviet military encyclopedia that clearly defines the corps as
                        Operational Tactical Association
                        Operational-tactical or higher tactical associations in wartime can be part of combined-arms armies or air defense armies, army groups or the front. In peacetime, they are part of the military districts. An operational-tactical association consists of formations and units of various branches of the armed forces (forces), special forces and services of the same type of armed forces; it is designed to carry out operational-tactical and tactical tasks, usually as part of an operational or operational-strategic association, and independently in certain operational areas of small capacity. During the Second World War, the tactical associations included army, mechanized and cavalry corps, etc..

                        Soviet military encyclopedia. T. 5, 1978, p. 680
        2. -1
          April 15 2020 18: 17
          Judging by the comments, they shot and such commentators and judges were not born at all times!
    2. 0
      April 16 2020 01: 52
      That's exactly the opposite. Pavlov was shot because, contrary to the directive of the General Staff of June 18, 1941, he did not bring the troops into combat readiness. He didn’t follow the order. All the rest that was incriminated to him was a consequence of this. That the defeats of 1941, that is, with what to compare. These are Dunkirk, Paris, Pearl Harbor and the rest of the "successes" of the future allies in 1940-1941.
    3. 0
      April 17 2020 13: 39
      For three months, Stalin did not intervene in the command of the General Staff. But Stalin was the Chairman of the Council of Ministers and, as the main one in the USSR, he wanted to know what was going on with the military. But no information reached him until he took command and created the GKO.
    4. -1
      28 June 2020 22: 14
      Pavlov was arrested by personal order of Zhukov. or rather a violation of the order on the transition to defense. Pavlov attacked and flooded.
      https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru дутая слава жука. читай
  39. -3
    April 15 2020 15: 28
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Do a favor, poke your drinking companions. What nonsense and stamps are you talking about, great expert on the history of your own country? Is this Stalin nonsense ?! Rokossovsky stamp? !!! Well, well, you will go far, I would say where, but there is no desire to go down to your level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Xqvy1jqio
  40. 0
    April 15 2020 17: 13
    Article superficial eulogy ... request
    1) GKZh’s guilt for the defeat of 41g is large, he was the third in the hierarchy after the temporary detention center and Tymoshenko, partially recognized by him in his memoirs
    2) The GKZh is not the only Marshal of Victory - at one time he was removed and sent to Odessa for excessive bullying of his merits, and not by the Democrats, but by the IVS ..
    3) As for victories, then under his leadership there were terrible defeats - for example, the operation Mars ... request .
    1. +1
      April 15 2020 18: 45
      Quote: ser56
      at one time he was removed and sent to Odessa for excessive bulging of his merits, and not by the democrats, but by the IVS ..

      Not for protrusion of merit, but for banal looting. Check out the lists of "unaccounted for" trophies at Zhukov's dacha, from antiques and books in German to lingerie and bicycle pumps. This despite the fact that Zhukov knew less German than a soldier's phrasebook, and no one had ever seen him on a bicycle. I drove in wagons! Because he could, because a marshal and a big shot in general. And the private for the watch removed from the killed German could be given a penalty battalion.
      The protrusion of merit began after 1953, when the whole country and the whole world tried to convince that the genius commander Zhukov won the war under the strict political and party leadership of Khrushchov. And Stalin, they say, at best did not interfere, but at worst finally interfered.
      1. -1
        April 15 2020 20: 18
        Quote: Nagan
        Not for the protrusion of merit, but for the banal looting.

        you are mistaken - looting is an occasion ... see the IVS supplement - there is in my message above ... request
        Quote: Nagan
        And Stalin, they say, at best did not interfere, but at worst finally interfered.

        defeat near Kiev in 41g on the conscience of the ITT request , I'm not talking about the gathering by Hitler of Europe in 1939-41 and the defeat of the outbreak of war ... hi
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. -1
          28 June 2020 22: 15
          https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru дутая слава жука. читай
          100 myths about Beria - 2 books to read.
          and then write.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      April 15 2020 23: 05
      B. V L A D I M I R O V
      D U T A I S L A B A
      Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
      "Memoirs and Reflections."
      https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru
  41. -1
    April 15 2020 17: 55
    Marshal Zhukov is not a girl to please everyone but Marshal of Victory!
    1. The comment was deleted.
  42. -2
    April 15 2020 17: 57
    a commander who rightfully stands among other great military figures of Russian civilization, along with Alexander Nevsky, Dmitry Donskoy, Dmitry Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov and Mikhail Kutuzov.

    But Sasha is Nevsky that became a great commander? Pozharsky is also a great commander? Yes you are SICK!
    1. -1
      April 15 2020 23: 02
      cool down. if you are, then we are not.
  43. -8
    April 15 2020 18: 01
    Why hate Zhukov


    He fought against the Russians since 1918.
  44. The comment was deleted.
  45. 0
    April 15 2020 21: 17
    And who hates?
  46. -1
    April 15 2020 22: 54
    And so the younger and dumb generation. to understand the essence of man, one must read what he writes. and while reading "Memoirs and Reflections" no one has seen the tuftology of this person for the time being. I read three volumes of the 90s and realized one thing that I didn’t understand about the war. bullshit. and forgot about this nonsense, if the site on the Internet did not find a pagination "Memoirs and Reflections".
    B. V L A D I M I R O V
    D U T A I S L A B A
    Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
    "Memoirs and Reflections."
    https://zhukov.1c-umi.ru
    and everything fell into place. pea clown, christmas tree, dummy .....
    I recommend that you carefully read.
    tried to verify some facts. everything was confirmed. eh Zhorik, how did you set yourself up .....
  47. 0
    April 16 2020 01: 31
    Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov is one of the Greatest commanders in the history of wars. I often talked with front-line soldiers, that is, with those people who were in the trenches and went on the attack, and they all responded with respect for Zhukov.
    1. -1
      April 16 2020 17: 30
      Dima YOU read the analysis, looked? or like a parrot ...
      1. 0
        April 17 2020 07: 28
        this is my personal opinion, but divine geniuses like you divorced how ... well, you’ll think of it yourself.
  48. 0
    April 16 2020 01: 40
    I believe that only persons of equal or greater contribution to history can evaluate the personalities of history. The rest, including historians, can only describe what they have accomplished.
    1. -1
      April 17 2020 13: 35
      And the people killed by him on his stupid order have the right to evaluate him? Do their relatives have killed fathers and sons?
  49. VS
    -2
    April 16 2020 13: 31
    "" After the death of Stalin, he got into political games, supported Khrushchev with his authority, first against Beria, then helped Khrushchev defeat his other opponents. It was a big mistake. State pygmy Khrushchev could not stand next to him such a titan as Zhukov "2

    - Well, enough of this person to sculpt something that wasn’t - NOBODY Zhuko was afraid - neither Stalin nor Khrushchev, and even more so NOBODY could envy the fame of the marshal because IT WASN’T)) Khrushchev threw Zhukov out and BECAUSE IT FIRST supported the group MOLOTOV - on the overthrow of Khrushchev)) And then, realizing on whose side the force rushed to help Khrushchev)) But in the end - betrayal Khrushchev didn’t forgive the second-hand unter)))
    1. -1
      April 16 2020 17: 32
      he was never a non-commissioner. as well as the St. George Knight. his first order for shot through the Tambov peasants.
      1. +1
        25 June 2020 16: 28
        Rave. St. George's Crosses of the 3rd and 4th degrees G.K. Zhukov received in 1915, the fourth degree for the capture of a German officer, the third - for being wounded in battle. In the imperial army he had the rank of junior non-commissioned officer. This is a well-known fact.
  50. -1
    April 16 2020 13: 34
    Read. comprehend. understand. since the beetle set itself up, few people could, paginating its nonsense.
    B. V L A D I M I R O V
    D U T A I S L A B A
    http://zhukov.umi.ru/
    Leafing through a book of Marshal Zhukov G.K.
    "Memoirs and Reflections."
    BLOWING GLORY.
  51. -1
    April 16 2020 16: 49
    Stalin was the first to hate Zhukov.
    And prepared two criminal cases for him.
  52. +2
    April 17 2020 06: 01
    But there is no need to dissuade anyone. Now the Victory and its results are being belittled. We refer to some documents. Although the main document is the decision of the Yalta Conference. This is alpha and omega. All the decisions are set out here. Which territories will be part of the USSR. This is what we should refer to.
  53. -1
    April 18 2020 17: 51
    This is our son... son))
  54. -1
    April 19 2020 20: 18
    It is impossible to understand the Zhukov phenomenon without understanding Stalin's sense of humor. all the years under Stalin he was protected by Beria. he defended him from execution in 1941 and insisted on returning from the Ural Military District. in gratitude he was shot in his apartment, in the back of the head, during lunch. We read 2 books “100 myths about Beria”.
    Now specifically about humor. appoint the most stupid and illiterate general as your deputy, hang them with orders and see!!!!1
    WILL THE DESCENDANTS UNDERSTAND HIS HUMOR!!!
    AFTER NOTHING DEPENDED ON ZHUKOV SPECIFICALLY...!!!!! HE WAS JUST A TURN!!!
    COMPARED TO HIM, EVEN MEKHLIS IS A MILITARY GENIUS!
  55. 0
    April 21 2020 15: 57
    Quote: ccsr
    Exaggerates his merits and understates his mistakes - I would put it that way.

    Have you ever seen any memoirs that didn’t have something like this?
  56. 0
    25 June 2020 16: 21
    Most of all Marshal G.K. Zhukov is being watered by armchair generals who, in the apt expression of Shota Rustaveli, imagine themselves as strategists, seeing the battle from the sidelines.
  57. 0
    7 July 2020 10: 39
    History made him a Marshal of Victory .. he hosted this Parade .. But when assessing his role in the Second World War, one cannot discount the fact that it was he, along with the “children’s best friend,” who was responsible for unheard of losses in the first months and years of the war .. Current historians with They say with foam on their lips that more than 100 divisions suddenly attacked the country... These divisions were spread invisible, they suddenly crept up on tiptoe? Who, if not the Chief of the General Staff who was directly responsible for intelligence, had information about the movement of Wehrmacht troops? Why weren’t the lines of reflection deployed in the directions of the probable enemy attack? Which one drove almost two divisions into the casemates of Brest? Why did so many enemy sabotage groups “suddenly” appear in the front line, what did the NKVD and counterintelligence do? Current “experts” and “historians” identify two “giants” in Victory - these are G, Zhukov and Stalin.. Yes, these names cannot be erased from history. But the winner in that bloody war is the PEOPLE, SOLDIERS, SERGEANTS, OFFICERS AND GENERALS, MARSHALS, WHOSE NAMES ARE SOUND FROM CASE TO CASE. WITHOUT THE UNPARALLELED SACRIFICES SUFFERED BY THE PEOPLE, THERE WOULD NOT BE A VICTORY MARSHAL. THIS TITLE IS WASHED IN BLOOD AND PAID FOR BY THE LIVES OF MILLIONS.
  58. +10
    10 July 2020 16: 22
    They hate it because they won
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