Military Review

In Japan, they proposed an original solution to the problem of a shortage of ventilators

110
In Japan, they proposed an original solution to the problem of a shortage of ventilators

An original solution is offered in Japan during the coronavirus pandemic. It is noted that today in clinics around the world there is a shortage of mechanical ventilation devices. Ventilators are used in the treatment of a new coronavirus. At the same time, many enterprises are reprofiling their production to create exactly this kind of equipment, but the number of devices is still small.


In this regard, the following idea was proposed in Japan: to publish in general access mode detailed drawings of ventilators with the aim that such a technique could be created by owners of 3D printers.

Asahi Shimbun writes that such a proposal was made by scientists from the University of Hiroshima. University staff noted that requests for ventilators come from all over the world.

From a speech at a press conference by Tomohiko Kisaka, Associate Professor, Department of Biodesign, Hiroshima University:

We are fighting a strong enemy. We want to save lives using the power and wisdom of science. For this, it is necessary to expand production using modern capabilities. Ventilators can be assembled from several printed parts.

In particular, it is proposed to print on a 3D printer a device that was developed by Dr. Naoyuki Ishikata from the Niigata Prefecture Clinic.

This is a mechanical AIVL. It is stated that this device was successfully recreated using a 3D printer on the International Space Station.

Dr. Ishikata and other project participants, according to the media, plan to get permission to produce mechanical mechanical ventilation as a medical device. They will also develop a guide that will allow healthcare providers around the world to use it.
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  1. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine April 13 2020 08: 38 New
    13
    Dr. Ishikata and other project participants, according to the media, plan to get permission to produce mechanical mechanical ventilation as a medical device.
    Well, why launch this project, because the right thing.
    1. Mytholog
      Mytholog April 13 2020 08: 50 New
      16
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Well, why launch this project, because the right thing.

      The answer is patent terrorism.
      Alas, in this device - a sea of ​​patented solutions. As a result, American and Japanese (mostly) legalists will torment the noble people who laid out the drawings until the end of their lives. Saved lives mean nothing to these hyenas.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 April 13 2020 10: 14 New
        +8
        Today in clinics around the world there is a shortage of mechanical ventilation devices.

        Not true! There is one country where they are superfluous! And therefore, its president distributes ventilation devices to other countries. Helps with kindness of soul!
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 13 2020 10: 47 New
        +7
        Do not make up myths smile Mytholog
        Nobody will torment them. Tons of drawings are uploaded to the Internet
        various systems for public use. Buy a 3D printer and print.
        They are usually laid out by printer manufacturers to increase sales.
        But other organizations too.
        1. Mytholog
          Mytholog April 13 2020 11: 19 New
          +3
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Do not invent myths: smile

          I do not have such a property.
          Here is the fact (this is offhand, there are already many):
          https://m.habr.com/ru/news/t/492890/
          The second point about myths: one very mythologized person, Elon Musk, flew into scandal, making Tesla mechanical ventilation according to the schemes for public use.
          Medical ventilation suitable for the treatment of damaged lungs, and even in the public domain? This looks like a myth - by signs :)
      3. orionvitt
        orionvitt April 13 2020 11: 37 New
        +1
        Quote: Mytholog
        The answer is patent terrorism.

        Понятие "патентный терроризм", существует только в тех странах, которые это патентное право (откровенно говоря, абсолютно не совершенное), поддерживают. Вот Китай, ложил на это "право", большой болт и по этому вопросу, вообще не парится. И весь "цивилизованный" мир, хоть и ворчит, но относится к этому совершено терпимо.
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 April 13 2020 08: 56 New
      -2
      And oxygen tanks too
      Will a 3d printer print?
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 April 13 2020 09: 31 New
        +9
        Oxygen piled up. It is used in welding, can you imagine? In any city there is at least one oxygen station.
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. April 13 2020 10: 05 New
          +4
          Technical oxygen for patients will not roll.
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 April 13 2020 12: 44 New
            -1
            What a noble chemist-technologist you are!
          2. Dmitriy Zadorozhniy
            Dmitriy Zadorozhniy April 13 2020 12: 50 New
            +2
            Do you know how technical o2 differs from medical oXNUMX? No? Well, I'll tell you, technical cleaner. Clean three nines.
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. April 13 2020 12: 57 New
              +1
              In technical oxygen, a small amount of CO, i.e. carbon monoxide, is allowed. In the medical - no.
              1. Demon_is_ada
                Demon_is_ada April 13 2020 14: 34 New
                0
                The technical content of CO is not regulated, it is simply not checked, the medical content is not more than 0,01% and is necessarily checked. From practice - the technical is always cleaner, which in terms of SB and other parameters. Aviation oxygen for moisture is very tightly controlled, apparently something was freezing.
        2. Doccor18
          Doccor18 April 13 2020 10: 08 New
          +7
          In each medical facility there is an oxygen-gasification station, which is designed for a certain amount of liters of oxygen and pressure for a certain number of liters per minute. As a rule, CGS hospitals are designed for the number of IVL / IVL devices, with a small margin. What is the use, if you bring 500 ventilators to the hospital, where the CHG is designed for 20.000 liters, it will be enough for a day. Therefore, a large number of vents require a large number of oxygen cylinders, about which I wrote.
          And minus, a big mind is not necessary.
          1. orionvitt
            orionvitt April 13 2020 11: 55 New
            +4
            Quote: Doccor18
            Therefore, a large number of vents require a large number of oxygen cylinders,

            Мне приходилось работать "на кислородке". Так вот каждый день, кислород развозили по больницам, в соответствии с заявками. Причём в крупные больницы, завозят жидкий кислород (причём в обычное время, далеко не каждый день) и уже на месте его газифицируют. Что мешает заказать кислорода больше, чем обычно? Вот уж чего чего, а кислорода на земле, пока ещё, завались.
          2. Ross xnumx
            Ross xnumx April 13 2020 15: 43 New
            +2
            Quote: Doccor18
            As a rule, CGS hospitals are designed for the number of IVL / IVL devices, with a small margin. What's the point, if you bring 500 ventilators to the hospital, where the CHG is designed for 20.000 liters, it will be enough for a day. Therefore, a large number of vents require a large number of oxygen cylinders, about which I wrote.

            You don’t particularly take offense - not everything immediately reaches people with a long neck and clouded brains. BUT!!! stop
            What is the use of the number of mechanical ventilation if the infectious department (department designed to comply with quarantine measures) has a certain number of places available? Builders from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation took up this issue, and this is important.
        3. orionvitt
          orionvitt April 13 2020 11: 44 New
          +4
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Oxygen piled up.

          Для поставки кислорода в больницы, нужно иметь специальный сертификат, на "медицинский кислород". Для чего на кислородной станции, должна быть сертифицированная лаборатория. Правда, открою небольшой секрет. И медицинский и технический кислород, производители зачастую заправляют из одной установки. То есть кислород тот же самый, но с бумажкой, он уже медицинский.
          1. Demon_is_ada
            Demon_is_ada April 13 2020 14: 38 New
            0
            Причем на медицинском лично я уже попадался при сварке хитромудрых сплавов в газовой смеси, очень "грязный". Возили за 100км чистый, высший сорт hi
    3. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin April 13 2020 09: 46 New
      -5
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Well, why launch this project, because the right thing.

      Just that in the news on TV they said that the Japanese seem to have found a means of stopping the spread of / * coronovirus. They said that this is a cure for AIDS.
      1. novel66
        novel66 April 13 2020 10: 42 New
        +6
        But is it really treated ???
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 April 13 2020 12: 46 New
          -1
          Yes. They just do not cure. If a person cannot be cured, this does not mean that he cannot be helped.
  2. Vitaly Tsymbal
    Vitaly Tsymbal April 13 2020 08: 41 New
    +5
    I am happy for the Japanese, but it seems to me that you won’t print everything on the printer, especially the electric motor ... I’m not special, I could be wrong.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona April 13 2020 08: 45 New
      +9
      As I understand it, this device without an electric motor and you need to swing the pens
      1. viktor_ui
        viktor_ui April 13 2020 08: 53 New
        +2
        Of course with a manual drive ... the patient himself, in a coma, bang bang and swing at leisure ... after all, these are backyards without mechanical ventilation and other medlabud. wassat There esho pedal drive is on a particularly advanced VIP-models for a separate bribe.
        1. novel66
          novel66 April 13 2020 10: 43 New
          +3
          if you want to live - and in a coma you shake
        2. Igor Polovodov
          Igor Polovodov April 13 2020 11: 13 New
          +1
          And didn’t they upload the converter kit for re-equipment of the exercise bike?
      2. Vitaly Tsymbal
        Vitaly Tsymbal April 13 2020 08: 54 New
        +6
        Well, why only with pens laughing it’s possible with legs using a bicycle ... and you also need to throw the idea of ​​connecting Arkady Raikin fellow dynamo to ballerinas - theaters are still closed anyway, so let the ballerinas earn extra money in infectious boxes laughing
        1. knn54
          knn54 April 13 2020 09: 08 New
          +2
          Gyms / equipment idle.
          1. novel66
            novel66 April 13 2020 10: 43 New
            +4
            and footballers .. lol
        2. Vasyan1971
          Vasyan1971 April 13 2020 11: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal
          so let even the ballerinas earn extra money in the infectious boxes

          One Volochkova for five will work.
      3. Demon_is_ada
        Demon_is_ada April 13 2020 08: 54 New
        +2
        Not a fact ... A ventilator is needed for oxygen therapy, since in lungs with a defeat the efficiency is like that of a steam locomotive, and therefore there must be a cylinder with oxygen under pressure. So maybe they use a pneumatic mover. Who knows, I would have entered there ...
        1. Avior
          Avior April 13 2020 09: 15 New
          +2
          a few years ago he was hospitalized with severe pneumonia
          instead of a pillow with an oxygen price of three copecks, they brought me an oxygen apparatus on wheels, even in appearance it was very expensive.
          1. Demon_is_ada
            Demon_is_ada April 13 2020 10: 41 New
            -1
            It’s better not to get there at all ... but oxygen needs to be moistened, the lungs are very dry, oxygen needs to be dosed, With the corona there is a sign - increased fatigue, the muscles cannot work, so the patient cannot breathe on his own. Alas, we won’t get off with a pillow, and we don’t seem to live in the Stone Age, like we’ve gathered on Mars, but we can’t arrange a quick release of mechanical ventilation ... Maybe we’ve gotten to space with our chicken brains then?
            1. Avior
              Avior April 13 2020 10: 46 New
              0
              probably there is a different severity of the course of the disease
              in some cases, a pillow can help without taking up ventilation for more severe cases
      4. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 13 2020 09: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: BlackMokona
        As I understand it, this device without an electric motor and you need to swing the pens

        Когда "ручками" это "ручной"
        1. novel66
          novel66 April 13 2020 10: 44 New
          +4
          well, type, and write - mechanical ....
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 13 2020 11: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: novel xnumx
            well, type, and write - mechanical ....

            "Механический" относится не к аппарату, а к функции "механической вентиляции лёгких"
            1. novel66
              novel66 April 13 2020 11: 13 New
              +4
              as I understand it, a mechanical drive
              because you can’t print an electric motor on the printer
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov April 13 2020 11: 14 New
                +1
                Quote: novel xnumx
                as I understand it, a mechanical drive

                The device for mechanical IVL

                Quote: novel xnumx
                because you can’t print an electric motor on the printer

                You will print it.
                But it's easier to take ready.
                1. novel66
                  novel66 April 13 2020 11: 17 New
                  +3
                  I am embarrassed to ask out of ignorance - do metal parts print on the printer?
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov April 13 2020 11: 29 New
                    +1
                    Quote: novel xnumx
                    I am embarrassed to ask out of ignorance - do metal parts print on the printer?

                    https://top3dshop.ru/blog/metal-3d-printing-techs-and-cost.html
                    1. novel66
                      novel66 April 13 2020 11: 32 New
                      +4
                      Thank you, my friend, you are always accurate and reasoned! hi
    2. Amateur
      Amateur April 13 2020 08: 55 New
      +1
      you won’t print on the printer, especially the electric motor

      According to many journalists engaged in custom advertising, on a 3D printer you can print everything, even brains with intelligence, though artificial.
    3. Skay
      Skay April 13 2020 08: 57 New
      +3
      And the electric motor can be printed. More precisely, the main details. Another thing is that buying a ready-made motor is cheaper and easier.
      Italian 3D printing enthusiasts have a life experience when they suggested printing valves for ventilators. They were threatened with a court for using someone else's intellectual property.
      1. grandfather_Kostya
        grandfather_Kostya April 13 2020 09: 18 New
        +1
        It's easier to print a water mill and twist it with tap water!
      2. den3080
        den3080 April 13 2020 09: 23 New
        +1
        Quote: Skay
        And the electric motor can be printed. More precisely, the main details. Another thing is that buying a ready-made motor is cheaper and easier.
        Italian 3D printing enthusiasts have a life experience when they suggested printing valves for ventilators. They were threatened with a court for using someone else's intellectual property.

        In Tomsk these valves are already being printed in full growth. On the box showed.
      3. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 13 2020 11: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Skay
        And the electric motor can be printed. More precisely, the main details. Another thing is that buying a ready-made motor is cheaper and easier.

        18.04.2018
        German engineers first printed an electric motor on a 3D printer
        https://3dtoday.ru/blogs/news3dtoday/german-engineers-for-the-first-time-printed-on-a-3d-printer-motor/

      4. Avior
        Avior April 13 2020 11: 13 New
        +1
        no, they were not threatened
        this is fake allowed
        I specifically dealt with this issue, somewhere I have detailed links in the history of comments.
    4. Avior
      Avior April 13 2020 09: 00 New
      +1
      you need to shake hands
      but, I think, it’s quite possible to adapt a suitable drive
  3. Avior
    Avior April 13 2020 08: 59 New
    +3
    Dr. Ishikata and other project participants, according to the media, plan to get permission to produce mechanical mechanical ventilation as a medical device.

    in Italy, enthusiasts make cheap but scarce filters for mechanical ventilation on a 3D printer.
    But the manufacturer did not give the drawings, explaining that it cannot participate in the project, as it is connected by strict standards for the production of medical equipment.
    As a result, Italians developed a system - the hospital makes an application for the company, the company replies that it is not available, and doctors use a printed filter as a forced situation to save lives.
    1. BARKHAN
      BARKHAN April 13 2020 09: 09 New
      -1
      Quote: Avior
      Dr. Ishikata and other project participants, according to the media, plan to get permission to produce mechanical mechanical ventilation as a medical device.

      in Italy, enthusiasts make cheap but scarce filters for mechanical ventilation on a 3D printer.
      But the manufacturer did not give the drawings, explaining that it cannot participate in the project, as it is connected by strict standards for the production of medical equipment.
      As a result, Italians developed a system - the hospital makes an application for the company, the company replies that it is not available, and doctors use a printed filter as a forced situation to save lives.

      That’s also why capitalists and bourgeois will always be my enemies. How their fangs appear during a universal disaster. Capitalism, anyone who can, that gnaws.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 13 2020 09: 12 New
        +5
        Capitalists, they are.
        But in this case, the problem is different - the company was afraid that for these drawings of a penny device, it would not receive gratitude, but lawsuits from survivors or relatives of non-survivors for participating in the release of products using non-certified technology.
        1. Liam
          Liam April 13 2020 09: 57 New
          +3
          The company was afraid of no lawsuits from relatives. Medics simply do not have the right to use something uncertified. Let us also release medicines on the back of my knee. Improvisations in this case will do more harm than good
          1. Avior
            Avior April 13 2020 11: 16 New
            0
            Doctors have and use when it comes to life or death
            In order to protect the doctors, and developed the scheme that I described above, with the help of lawyers from the Italian Ministry of Digital Technology.
            but the manufacturer company cannot participate in this, it will have problems, nobody canceled their requirements
            1. Liam
              Liam April 13 2020 11: 22 New
              0
              Какие проблемы могут быть у компании изготовителя если больница заказала запчасти у "левого" производителя?
              All this trick is to enable hospitals to order and use an uncertified part. On the contrary, it was the doctors who took the risks. More precisely, not the doctors, but the hospital administration. For no one will do anything to the doctor if the patient dies due to a burst vent valve. will be to the one who ordered and installed.
              1. Avior
                Avior April 13 2020 12: 48 New
                0
                Какие проблемы могут быть у компании изготовителя если больница заказала запчасти у "левого" производителя?

                large if the company participated in the production, for example, transferred the drawings
                read carefully
                1. Liam
                  Liam April 13 2020 13: 33 New
                  0
                  And are the company's drawings generally suitable for reproducing them in artisanal conditions on a 3d printer? Does the company also produce them with a 3d printer like this enthusiast? Moreover, the types of mechanical ventilation (and valves for them) are dozens of different shapes and sizes, and the enthusiast makes only one type. The Ministry has created a legal niche in the form of force majeure to at least somehow secure the hospital administration from liability for the use of uncertified products, but everything is sewn with white thread and if someone dies due to these home-made valves, those who gave the go-ahead will have big problems. The manufacturer, with all this, has no sideways. They just said that they would not sue this inventor
                  1. Avior
                    Avior April 13 2020 13: 48 New
                    0
                    yes were fit
                    they needed the exact dimensions of the filter, they turned to the company, it refused, and they had to re-measure
                    they talked about a specific filter of a particular company, I don’t know why this particular problem stood.
                    The Ministry has created a legal niche to at least somehow secure the hospital administration from liability for the use of non-certified products, but everything is sewn with white thread and if someone dies because of these makeshift valves, those who gave the go-ahead will have big problems. sideways. They just said they won’t sue this inventor.

                    this is exactly what I wrote at the top, the company has no relation.
                    And about white threads, I doubt that you are more familiar with Italian laws than Italian lawyers of a ministerial level.
                    filters, by the way, volunteers do for free
                    1. Liam
                      Liam April 13 2020 13: 59 New
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      yes were fit

                      Let's not argue in vain.
                      Quote: Avior
                      Italian lawyers at the ministerial level.

                      Ministerial lawyers themselves called this decision the word ploy.Google the meaning of the word.
                      Quote: Avior
                      filters, by the way, volunteers do for free

                      Not filters, but valves, to be exact. Ask how many of these valves are produced and used in hospitals and how many of these enthusiasts have produced. They didn’t even half-drip in the ocean. The company received its return in the form of a self-PR. Not releasing several hundred valves, costing a dime each. By the way, nothing has been heard about them for a long time and what are the successes
                      1. Avior
                        Avior April 13 2020 14: 51 New
                        0
                        you don’t hear it, there are articles with details of working with batches of these filters.
                        and the scheme of their work is painted from the legal point of view in detail what and how.
                        these are volunteers, they don’t get a penny for this, it’s also one of the conditions, PR they, of course, have
                        Make in batches as needed

                        hi
                      2. Vadim237
                        Vadim237 April 13 2020 17: 13 New
                        0
                        The filter is only a small part of the ventilator.
                      3. Avior
                        Avior April 13 2020 22: 07 New
                        0
                        Yes, but somehow she was in short supply
                      4. Liam
                        Liam April 14 2020 17: 00 New
                        0
                        Because it’s a disposable cheap material. Like a mask. And the ventilator itself is not. This is a very complicated very expensive complex of equipment that cannot be created and unnecessary in a massive way on the knee, because it requires hospital infrastructure and brigades of highly skilled professionals who cannot be created on the knee
                  2. Liam
                    Liam April 14 2020 16: 56 New
                    0
                    Share the link to these sites)
                    PySy. These valves should be used in a very invasive form of therapy, which includes including the introduction of tubes into the trachea. And the sterility requirements of all parts are severe. It is interesting how this can be achieved at all stages, from production to packaging and transportation in artisanal conditions.
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy April 13 2020 09: 10 New
    0
    reports the mentioned media, plan to get permission on the release of mechanical mechanical ventilation as a medical device. They will also develop guidelines that will enable healthcare providers around the world to use them.
    What good, go ahead! And how many 3D printers we have, I don’t know.
    In Japan, they proposed an original solution to the problem of a shortage of ventilators
    I propose to change the design of the device, equipping it with additional filters and membranes, to ensure the possibility of connecting several patients, equal physical condition (because a 100 year old grandmother can not be on the same pipe with a 40 year old) recourse
    It turned out these printers were just heaps. fellow
  • Wedmak
    Wedmak April 13 2020 09: 19 New
    +6
    As the owner of a 3D printer, a controversial proposition. Who will vouch for the plastic from which the machine is printed? Who will conduct the verification? Printers are different, printing on them is different due to the settings of the slicers. These devices will have different strength characteristics. I’m not talking about the type of plastic tolerance for use in medical equipment.
    The adapters are still fine, but the devices ... a dubious decision.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 April 13 2020 09: 30 New
      0
      The level of questions is different. Will you survive or not? You, your parents, relatives, acquaintances. This is how the main question sounds. It is necessary to proceed from it. Crack valve - make it stronger. An explosion does not threaten failure, and a partial supply of oxygen is better than none, definitely)
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak April 13 2020 09: 43 New
        +6
        Do you entrust your life to an apparatus assembled on a knee in an apartment of an unknown printer from unknown plastics? Even checked by someone? For example, do you know that a printed part from an ABS is not exactly the same as a stamped or die-cast part? Of course, it is VERY easy to process and crumble, but from it there are a lot of small dust particles that are not useful for the lungs. Even polishing does not save, the part is scratched with a fingernail. PLA really does not like ultraviolet light, and in rooms for patients for disinfection they use it, who can guarantee how much this plastic can withstand these sessions? SBS is more or less suitable, it is a little more expensive than common PLA and ABS, but damn it .. it also happens to be different.
        And if you print from composite plastics: you need a printer with a ruby ​​nozzle (in the literal sense, there is a ruby ​​tip), because ordinary ones will be erased in a few tens of meters of filament. And this plastic is very dofig - from 2000 r. for 750 grams !!
        About partial oxygen supply .. ask your doctors as much as possible.
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 April 13 2020 12: 49 New
          -1
          У вас есть деньги на фирменный аппарат ИВЛ? Если есть, дело одно. Если нет, хорош языком болтать. "Аргументы" у вас один чуднее другого. Немного пластиковой пыли - повод подохнуть? Не буду вдыхать пыль, задохнусь лучше! Тьфу...
          1. Wedmak
            Wedmak April 13 2020 22: 56 New
            0
            Dust will kill the patient even faster, irritating the already affected lungs. And the unstable operation of the device will finish even with a chance to survive. We are already increasing the production of mechanical ventilation. Natural, factory, with a certificate and tests. We still win time, and although there are many patients, mortality is still scanty. This is what isolation is designed for.
            In the USA, over the past 1300 hours another 18 people have left for the world. We have only XNUMX. There is hope with the construction of new hospitals and the delivery of normal mechanical ventilation to get rid of minimal losses. And without collective farm press mechanical ventilation with unknown consequences.
        2. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh April 13 2020 14: 05 New
          +1
          "Вы доверите свою жизнь аппарату..."///
          ----
          You, at the moment when you are connected to the device, are already dying. One foot in the grave.
          Stuff your eyes and cannot breathe air.
          And you are lucky if at this moment the hospital is free
          apparatus.
          ANY device, even made by Uncle Vasya from birch and hoses from watering the lawns.
          1. Liam
            Liam April 13 2020 14: 13 New
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            ANY device, even made by Uncle Vasya

            Yesterday I read an interview with a resuscitator from St. Petersburg who told how several people died in a resuscitation unit due to substandard mechanical ventilation. Want a link?
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh April 13 2020 14: 53 New
              0
              A homemade device may turn out to be:
              a) - serviceable and useful; b) defective.
              In the first case, it will continue to be used until
              will bring approved factory.
              In the second case, someone will die and the device will be thrown out. In war, as in war.
              Во время эпидемий и лекарства сразу начинают "испытывать"
              for seriously ill patients, bypassing all stages of the usual perennial
              tests. And during this epidemic, too.
              In Israel, including.
              1. Liam
                Liam April 13 2020 15: 22 New
                0
                Quote: voyaka uh
                A homemade device may turn out to be:
                a) - serviceable and useful

                A home-made ventilator has no more chance of being serviceable and useful than the likelihood that you and I will right now download B-777 schemes from the Internet and tomorrow we will release a flying plane in a car repair shop.
                If we’ve already switched to the army analogy, it’s like when there is one battle-worthy tank with trained crew, and you are brought back 2 more self-made tanks without crews, shells, fuel, which do not start or break after 100 meters of march and will order these three crews to fight tanks at the same time. Reasonable crew will not even lose time on these 1 junk but will fight on its combat ready. Unreasonable - will divide the crew into three tanks of one and a half people and lose all 2. In any case, one only harm
              2. IS-80_RVGK2
                IS-80_RVGK2 April 14 2020 12: 41 New
                0
                You know, the wrong side approached the question. Here another thing is interesting, which artist has not yet deployed sufficient capacity for the production of apparatuses? Although this question is a rhetorical answer, it is known that everything rested in the interests of capital.
          2. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 April 13 2020 18: 27 New
            -2
            You, at the moment when you are connected to the device, are already dying
            They do not understand. They see the world differently.
      2. your1970
        your1970 April 13 2020 10: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: Mikhail3
        Will you survive or not? You, your parents, relatives, acquaintances. This is how the main question sounds.

        Only here is trouble — if they die — I’m a survivor dragging you through the courts for using ILLEGAL equipment ...
        And the courts will take my side.
        Even in our remote province there are cases lost by hospitals for improper treatment with large payments.
        And here even it will not be necessary to prove guilt .....
        1. Avior
          Avior April 13 2020 11: 18 New
          +2
          And the deceased have relatives. Which in two accounts write that he died from an uncertified device, and not from a virus
        2. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 April 13 2020 12: 51 New
          0
          I know. For good deeds, not only imprisoned for many years. And they kill too, and often. I know that saving you means running into a lawsuit. It's nice that the courts will take your side. In general, we have built a beautiful world! In which survivors destroy their saviors ...
          1. your1970
            your1970 April 13 2020 16: 18 New
            0
            Quote: Mikhail3
            In general, we have built a beautiful world! In which survivors destroy their saviors ...

            And if they don’t survive, then who will answer? Who will take responsibility in case of failure of this home-made apparatus?
            1. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 April 13 2020 18: 24 New
              -2
              Do not survive the fact that plastic dust is in oxygen? Nowhere in nature does it exist, plastic does not fall into the lungs of a modern person, right?
              Or because you decided not to save these people? Let them die. And then they’ll drag them through the courts. Watch how fun they’re eating and trying to breathe ...
              1. your1970
                your1970 April 14 2020 16: 45 New
                0
                Are you ready to experiment, they will die from dust, from leaks, unproven structures or not ??
                Ready to take on responsibility ???
                Clever for other easy- and as soon as you answer yourself, the gut is immediately thin
  • T.Henks
    T.Henks April 13 2020 09: 20 New
    0
    The golden device will be. The printer is not five rubles. Pole consumables. Plus shipping. By then, the patient will repose.
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 April 13 2020 09: 27 New
      -2
      From ten rubles, and consumables another ruble. Well, in the sense of a thousand, yeah.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 April 13 2020 09: 27 New
    +3
    Да они там окончательно спятили. У нас, чтобы ВРАЧ воспользовался аппаратом ИВЛ, больница должна оплатить ему лицензии, допуски и разрешения на много сотен тысяч рублей, и потратить год. Иначе - тюрьма врачу! Такой у нас курс - на "порядок"! "Порядок" по нашему, по чиновничьи, это запретить как можно больше нужного и важного. А потом начать выдавать разрешения! Выгребая ни за что деньги и тратя как можно больше времени. Чтобы, кроме официальной платы, взимать за ускорение еще неофициальную. Побольше.
    В таких условиях никто не может развиваться, слишком много денег уходит на поборы, которые ничего не дают делу, только лишают времени и средств. Зато чиновники довольны! И часто искренне не понимают, чего это подними все разваливается?! Они ж "порядок" навели! Ну взяли там немножко... ничего, лишняя тысяча работу не прикончит! Ну-ну...
    1. awdrgy
      awdrgy April 13 2020 09: 42 New
      -1
      Quite right, that’s exactly what will save us. Otherwise, they would be able to maintain balance for centuries, and so do not twist the rope. Greed will destroy them
  • Galleon
    Galleon April 13 2020 10: 04 New
    +4
    The person who discovered penicillin Fleming did not patent the discovery, saying that his work was necessary and belongs to all of humanity. F. Bunting acted in a similar way, who discovered insulin and shared his Nobel with his assistant. Although both discoveries were worth enormous fortunes.
    The Japanese proposal puts them on a par with these and other worthy people and scientists. soldier
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 15 New
      0
      Both that and another to be made on special equipment in pure conditions, according to rather not simple technical process.
      Assembled mechanical ventilation from printed parts is another. By the way, the question is still in the details themselves - which ones are printed?
      1. Galleon
        Galleon April 13 2020 10: 22 New
        +1
        Да кто же с этим спорит. Еще Жванецкий говорил, что с тем, что "для внутреннего употребления" надо "тщательнЕе". Вы как специалист правильно остужаете возникающую здесь радостную эйфорию. Но вы и другое, наверное, понимаете тоже: попади любой из нас (не дай Бог, конечно) в такую тяжелую ситуацию, когда понадобится для жизни аппарат ИВЛ, сквозь полусознание-полузабытье будет абсолютно индифферентно, из чего он сделан, есть ли у него сертификаты и какова вероятность его поломки. Спасти хоть кого-нибудь, кого можно спасти. Уверен, что японские ученые исходят из этого принципа.
        1. Wedmak
          Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 34 New
          +1
          Therefore, I said about adapters. Simple parts can be made and used. But the ventilator is not a simple machine. Adjusting the pressure, oxygen level, purity of the air mixture, inspiratory / expiratory frequency, patient monitoring, this is just what I suppose / heard. Doctors still throw a dozen parameters. And to collect such drawings at home? Well, well ... Such an apparatus can just as well send a person to the next world, as well as cure it.
    2. Polymer
      Polymer April 13 2020 11: 23 New
      0
      Quote: Galleon
      The Japanese proposal puts them on a par with these and other worthy people and scientists.

      Yes. Only a little surprisingly from the Japanese.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 April 13 2020 10: 06 New
    +5
    Fucking. With simply gigantic industrial capacities around the world, we are offered to make ventilators on the knee of shit and sticks. Here are the adherents of capitalism, admire. This is the very capitalism for which you have throated throats here. By the way, masks are also not visible in the nearest pharmacies to my house. Probably they are not capitalistic enough.
    1. Wedmak
      Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 20 New
      +2
      In the right way: to make molds for casting the necessary parts under pressure - 1-2 days, debug the process - another day, put the production on stream and organize the warehouse and logistics - let's say another 2-3 days. EVERYTHING is decided in a week !!! With access to hundreds of devices per day! And it will be just a small factory that used to make plastic cases for some garbage. But yes, patents, law, licenses ...
  • Wedmak
    Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 10 New
    +3
    I would go the other way: you need to pass a law, the essence of which is that in such difficult situations, emergency situations, emergency situations, pandemics, NO ALL patents, rights to inventions, to anything that can help overcome the crisis, are temporarily reset. It will only be necessary to monitor their application and issue only to those who can use the technology for its intended purpose. After all rights are restored, without the possibility of making claims for the period of use.
    1. Liam
      Liam April 13 2020 10: 21 New
      -1
      Quote: Wedmak
      I would go the other way: you need to pass a law, the essence of which is that in such difficult situations, emergency situations, emergency situations, pandemics, NO ALL patents, rights to inventions, to anything that can help overcome the crisis, are temporarily reset. It will only be necessary to monitor their application and issue only to those who can use the technology for its intended purpose. After all rights are restored, without the possibility of making claims for the period of use.

      Then, in addition to patents, it is necessary to cancel all medical protocols, certifications, quality control, contracts with suppliers, payment procedures, and maintenance instructions. For doctors, take people from the street if there is a shortage, etc., etc. Anarchy is shorter.
      1. Wedmak
        Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 24 New
        +2
        In no case. Quality control should be, otherwise Uncle Liao's preachers will catch up and rivet products in the cellars. With a known quality, dignity. norms and things ...
        The question is in the production of equipment which is not enough, but companies owning patents, technologies and licenses can not cope. So give it to those who can temporarily support them.
        1. Liam
          Liam April 13 2020 10: 34 New
          -1
          Ну и кто и как будет все проверять,испытывать,сертифицировать,находить и отсекать брак и так далее если каждая мастерская скачает с интернета чертежи и начнет клепать детали.Рекрутировать армию контроллеров и проверяльщиков необходимой квалификации?).И надо еще как то координировать работу всех этих энтузиастов ибо там тысячи деталей которые надо производить на разных заводах с разной специализацией,где то создавать места окончательной сборки,сделать "обвес" всей необходимой электроникой ,тестирование всего и вся.
          This is not serious. It’s about how to put the airplane’s blueprints on the Internet for everyone and wait for what will turn out to be a flying airplane.
          1. Wedmak
            Wedmak April 13 2020 10: 39 New
            +1
            This is not serious. It’s about how to put the airplane’s blueprints on the Internet for everyone and wait for what will turn out to be a flying airplane.

            Well, that is, we have agreed that the idea of ​​the Japanese is garbage?
            But in general, I didn’t mean to give out drawings to the right and left, but to give out for temporary use to companies with access to the necessary equipment. If you want, send a licensed specialist from licensed production and a patent holder, he will control both the technology and the product itself. And then he will control the return of everything back.
            But the work will be done, the necessary products will be at the disposal of doctors, the Ministry of Emergencies and other services.
            1. Liam
              Liam April 13 2020 10: 47 New
              0
              Of course garbage. No wonder the first law in medicine - Do no harm.
              As long as you establish a seriously working chain, the epidemic will end or everyone will die 3 times. This is not to mention that even if you increase production at least 10 times in a month, you won’t save anyone. For it’s impossible to increase the number of resuscitators, anesthetists, specialized Nurses without whom all this equipment is useless. An airplane without a pilot, infrastructure and army of technicians does not fly.
      2. Polymer
        Polymer April 13 2020 11: 31 New
        0
        Quote: Liam
        Then, in addition to patents, all medical protocols, certifications, quality control, contracts with suppliers, payment procedures, and maintenance instructions must be canceled.

        Sometimes it makes sense. Here, at VO, more than one article is available about Zinaida Yermoliev. She had no protocol protocols, only her personal knowledge and experience. And I had to work in frankly unsanitary conditions. But she stopped the epidemic!
        1. Liam
          Liam April 13 2020 11: 41 New
          +1
          By canceling the protocols, you will kill a lot more people than you will save. Imagine that you canceled the rules of the road - there are no more signs, speed limits, you can drive red as green, you can drive drunk and so on. How will this affect the accident rate?
          1. Polymer
            Polymer April 13 2020 13: 03 New
            0
            This is not about the need to abolish all the rules in general, but about the fact that under difficult conditions some (not all!) Individuals and legal entities are given carte blanche. To win on time. After all, all these bureaucratic processes take a lot of time - in this case, this means that the bureaucracy is guilty of the loss of life.
    2. Galleon
      Galleon April 13 2020 10: 28 New
      +2
      У нас могут не объявлять режим ЧС, карантин или пандемию. Объявят очередную самоизоляцию или "режим всеобщего понимания" и пойдут, кому надо, брать у кого угодно какие угодно патенты и этим пользоваться. А кому надо - дружно за это проголосуют, и кому положено - все "по справедливости" народу объяснят и расскажут. Не ходите по тому пути - даже шага не делайте. А то наподсказываете сейчас...
  • sanik2020
    sanik2020 April 13 2020 11: 52 New
    -2
    Well, if there is a cruel need for such devices, then why not take advantage of any help.
    The question is different, because the epidemics sooner or later end, where then to put the excess of these devices to put, if everyone has?
  • Humpty
    Humpty April 13 2020 12: 03 New
    -1
    Quote: Mytholog
    Saved lives mean nothing to these hyenas.

    Juponians do not consider anyone other than themselves to be people, they are hyenas.
  • Finn
    Finn April 13 2020 12: 52 New
    0
    Quote: Avior
    probably there is a different severity of the course of the disease
    in some cases, a pillow can help without taking up ventilation for more severe cases

    So it is, in the most severe cases, they are generally injected into a coma because in this case, the ventilation is painful and is administered through the trachea. At the expense of 3D printing - in Italy, the entrepreneur prints valves and distributes to hospitals. In emergency situations, foreign patents can be used in many countries. In others, it is still possible if the patent holder has been notified of this.
  • Vadim237
    Vadim237 April 13 2020 13: 08 New
    -1
    Yes, it’s easier to expand the existing production facilities - up to the release of 10000 units per week with the use of already industrial 3D printing than to engage in every self-made product producing uncertified products with marriage that can cost a person’s life.
  • UAZ 452
    UAZ 452 April 13 2020 19: 40 New
    0
    To stamp electronics on the printer too?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Wedmak
      Wedmak April 13 2020 23: 01 New
      0
      They’ll probably buy in China. Or make an arduinka. A terrible machine to turn out, with 95% mortality of the patient.
  • dubovitskiy.1947
    dubovitskiy.1947 April 14 2020 16: 36 New
    0
    Along with the details, which are not few, there are even more details that you can’t print on the printer. What theoretically will be able to sculpt in your kitchen is rubbish compared to the complexity and precision of the instrument part. Who will collect the electronics, carry out the setup, calibration and certification of each ventilator? Who will organize the delivery of single copies of what is not possible to do? Large-scale production is another matter, and organized, with unmeasured grandmothers, in weeks. Deliveries to hundreds of thousands of homemade addresses? Rave.