Why were not put into serial production of the Su-6 and IL-2M: the arguments of the historian

During World War II, the role of the main striking force of the Soviet Union was played by the combat aviation. Despite the fact that in the first hours the German invaders managed to destroy about a thousand Soviet aircraft, our country mobilized its efforts in the shortest possible time, subsequently taking a leading position in the number of air combat vehicles produced.

Throughout the war, our aircraft engineers developed and created a large number of aircraft thus contributing to the victory of our people in the Great Patriotic War.

Meanwhile, not all developments that were proposed by Soviet designers were launched into mass production.

The guest of the “Archival Revolution” program Oleg Valentinovich Rastrenin will continue the conversation, begun earlier, about attack aircraft, which were necessary for the Red Army Air Force during the war years, but which were never put into serial production. The leading aviation historian will talk about the reasons that did not allow the launch of the production of Su-6 P.O. Sukhoi, as well as the proposed S.V. Ilyushin alternative to the creation of an attack aircraft Il-2M.

The arguments of the historian:

Comments

[Mavrikiy]

Why were not put into serial production of the Su-6 and IL-2M

Why, why. There was a war. The transition from model to model is a drop in production. We are until the end of 1943. had no air superiority.

[svp67]

Quote: Mavrikiy

Transition from model to model - production decline

Yeah ... And the IL-10 immediately began to be produced in huge quantities ....
And yet, this is another fact that makes us take a closer look at the role of Yakovlev in the history of our aircraft industry, especially in the pre-war and military periods, as the deputy commissar for experimental aircraft construction ...

[Elturisto]

Yes, and what is there Yakovlev?

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

Yes, and what is there Yakovlev?

Yes, NOTHING .. for Polikarpov and Sukhoi - Nothing, well, everything is clear with the first one, but with what did the second hook him so much?

[Elturisto]

And what is clear about Polikarpov? What did you develop biplanes before 1941? Everything is really clear with him. Regarding Sukhoi-Yakovlev, he was engaged in pilot aircraft construction, his opinion was decisive in technical matters, the probability of achieving the characteristics declared by the designer. After Tupolev and Polikarpov nonsense, the political leadership of the USSR was compelled to distrust the promises of designers. The expediency of production was determined by the military and Shakhurin.

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

What did this one develop biplanes before 1941?

Yeah ... The I-190 was beautiful and the best of the biplanes.

But his I-180s were especially good,

And-185

And-200

SPB

Quote: ElTuristo

After the Tupolev and Polikarpov nonsense, the political leadership of the USSR was forced to distrust the promises of designers.

And can you find out what she expressed, this nonsense?

[ser56]

Quote: svp67

And can you find out what she expressed, this nonsense?

this is an ordinary sketch of an amateur, there will be no specifics ....

[Elturisto]

above specifically for professionals ...

[ser56]

Quote: ElTuristo

higher specifically for professionals ...

but no ...

[Elturisto]

Yeah, the best of the biplanes ... in 1941 ... Bullshit consisted of reports from Spain about the outstanding qualities of the I-16 and I-15, and especially the relevance of the tactics of the joint use of biplanes and monoplanes. As a result, the production of I-15 and I was continued -153.

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

The nonsense consisted of reports from Spain about the outstanding qualities of the I-16 and I-15, and especially the relevance of the tactics of the joint use of biplanes and monoplanes

Stop, stop ... and what about Polikarpov and Tupolev to these reports? Did they bribe the pilots to write these reports? Yes, and they were written at the first stage of air battles, before the appearance in the skies of Spain "thin" - BF-109 ... You somehow moderate your ardor and think for yourself who and what could report from Spain.
And the same Polikarpov perfectly understood the importance of speed for the fighter of that time, otherwise he would not have created an I-16 ...

Quote: ElTuristo

Yeah, the best of the biplanes ... in 1941 ...

Of the biplane fighter planes, it was the BEST. Prove the converse

[A.TOR]

And what is clear about Polikarpov? What did this one develop biplanes before 1941?

I-16 is a biplane ... yeah

[Alf]

Quote: ElTuristo

.After Tupolev and Polikarpov nonsense

What exactly is nonsense? Despite my not the best attitude towards Yakovlev, I remember his "cry" from above that "we are being systematically deceived." This is about the fact that the designers were promised an M-106 of 1350 horses, but they gave only the M-105 ON 300 fewer mares. And with duralumin the same picture, they promised, but did not give it, so spin as you want.

[svp67]

Quote: Alf

Despite my not the best attitude towards Yakovlev, I remember his "cry" at the top that "we are being systematically deceived"

In spite of Yakovlev, now one could imagine how hard the tests with accidents and disasters of his Yak-1 and special "fraud" with the high-speed front-line bomber Yak-2 were going ... How about "deception" then?

[Elturisto]

Yes, and so what? Like the I-180? Who ditched 3 excellent pilots including Chkalov. By the way, I-26 Yatsenko showed better data than I-180 with the same engine ... https: //airpages.ru/ru/i28.html

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

Which ditched 3 excellent pilots including Chkalov.

Chkalov, Susie, and the third who?

Quote: ElTuristo

By the way, I-26 Yatsenko showed the best data

Firstly, I-28, and secondly, who framed him at the serial plant? Whose planes went into production instead of the I-28?

The Resolution of the Defense Committee No. 235ss of May 25, 1940 stated: “To discontinue the I-292 aircraft at the factory No. 28. Allow the People’s Commissariat of Defense to accept 10 I-28 aircraft. ” At the same time, there was a decision to deploy at the factory No. 292 the serial production of I-26 fighters (future Yak-1) designed by A. S. Yakovlev.

It seems that Yatsenko also suffered for "nonsense" ...

[Elturisto]

The Yak-1 turned out to be better and more technologically advanced ... by the way, initially Yakov planned to produce less than LaGG and only after gaining operational experience in the troops began to change to Yak1-7.

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

The Yak-1 turned out to be better and more technologically advanced ... by the way, initially Yakov planned to produce less than LaGG and only after gaining operational experience in the troops began to change to Yak1-7.

Where do you get the data from? Yakovlev told? I will tell you more that in 42, following the results and having "experience of operation in the troops", the flight commanders asked to stop the production of not only LaGG-3, but also Yakov, to give the front more I-16 ... Something like this , that was

[Elturisto]

I wrote about this before .... commanders asked :)

[svp67]

Quote: ElTuristo

I wrote about this before .... commanders asked :)

They fought and had the right to ask for the weapons that they considered the best.

[hohol95]

So there were no problems with mastering the machine at the plant?
And the engine was suitable and there were fewer problems with the design than the Yak and LaGG?

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

So there were no problems with mastering the machine at the plant?

Since he repeated, in many respects, the design of Polikarpov’s aircraft, at that moment - NO, the plant did not experience any problems.

Quote: hohol95

And the engine was suitable

Yes, the same that was installed on the Su-2

[hohol95]

And what does Polikarpov have to do with it?
They write that the I-28s were going to build the R-10 reconnaissance aircraft (I. G. Neman) at the factory that produced the combines and the airplane.
The plant of agricultural engineering "Sarkombein" in the city of Saratov.
The M-88 was "fine-tuned". Go M-87B gave all the parameters required of it?
Why then it was recommended to LIGHTEN I-28 for 300 kg?
"Not everything is so simple in the Danish kingdom ..."

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

And what does Polikarpov have to do with it?

Yes, despite the fact that the technology was worked out and nothing had to be invented there, it was just worth repeating

Quote: hohol95

Why then it was recommended to LIGHTEN I-28 for 300 kg?

You know, to other fighters, except for the Yakovlevsky, a lot of requirements were put forward that delayed their serial production.
Nevertheless, it would be our only new fighter with an air-cooled engine at that time which went into production.

[hohol95]

Nevertheless, it would be our only new fighter with an air-cooled engine at that time which went into production.

And were there motors?

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

And were there motors?

Zaporozhye worked properly, supplying engines for I-16 and Su-2

[hohol95]

I’ll ask for the last time - was the M-88 ready for deployment on the I-28? Was there a lot of them? Did their quality satisfy military acceptance?

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

I’ll ask for the last time - M-88 was ready for staging on I-28

Judging by the test results - YES

[hohol95]

And why then M-88 was discontinued in September 1940?

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

And why then M-88 was discontinued in September 1940?

Because it was launched into the M-88B series

[hohol95]

Internet gives out -

... In addition, in the autumn of 1940 the aircraft industry failed to overcome the crisis in improving engines, especially those developed in the design bureau of S.K. Tumansky. On the M-88 engines, burnout of the pistons, shaking of the VMG, increased oil consumption, which led to smoke, were constantly observed. If at the first supercharger speed an excessive depletion of the mixture was observed, then at the second super-enrichment. I had to temporarily suspend their serial production. It was difficult to fine-tune the promising M-90 engine, on which the NKAP had high hopes. As a result, E.V. Urmin was replaced to the post of chief designer of the plant No. 29 of Tumansky. Director S.A. Gromov - only the intercession of Shakhurin saved him from an early reprisal.

And such engines were offered for the fighter.
After some work, the M-88 was renamed the M-88A and M-88B!

... After obtaining satisfactory M-88 test results, their serial construction was resumed under the designation M-88B. And Kharkovites shortly before the new 1941, these engines were installed not only on the newly built Su-2, but also replaced substandard engines on already manufactured cars.

[svp67]

Quote: hohol95

And such engines were offered for the fighter.

And we didn’t have others, and that was the best we had. And they were put not only on the Su-2, but also on the IL-4
The M-105 had no less "sores" and until the end of the war they could not eliminate them all

[Alf]

Quote: svp67

To the peak of Yakovlev, one could now imagine how hard the tests went with accidents and the disaster of his Yak-1

So with the LAGG in the tests also loved.
By the way, LAGG was also designed with the M-106, but had to be built with the 105th.

[Elturisto]

Yakovlev is neither warm nor cold from your attitude. There are enough opinions about his constructions of enemies and friends.

[knn54]

The Su-6 was better than the IL-2M. But the IL-10 was already inferior in terms of basic characteristics.

[svp67]

Quote: knn54

But the IL-10th on the main characteristics was already inferior

On what? By bomb load? By speed? By security? And most importantly by the time of appearance?

[Pavel57]

I think that the conservative moment did not change anything, if possible, prevailed.
And so five factors-
1. Readiness on time.
2. The presence of the motor.
3. Availability of available materials.
4. The presence of the plant.
5. And trust above in the person of himself.

[DimanC]

If you look at the entire cycle of videos (the authors of the latter partially recall the past content), it turns out that failure to fulfill all of the above items is a deliberate and man-made affair. Mikhail Timin has already stated a couple of times about the weaving intrigues, and if you add videos about the appearance of LaGG-3 here, the picture becomes even clearer ...

[Pavel57]

And in which system there is no intrigue? The Germans had no less.

[svp67]

Quote: Pavel57

Readiness on time.

How long? If the IL-10 did not order anyone and the terms of reference for its design did not issue

[Pavel57]

The IL-10 was very much wanted by the military. Ilyushin considered promising IL-8.

[svp67]

Quote: Pavel57

The IL-10 was very much wanted by the military.

They had never heard of him, did not know about him, but demanded the Su-6 to replace the Il-2 ... But someone (who could have done it?) Could cover up Ilyushin's "amateur performance" and pass it off as the best solution, simultaneously slowing down the advance of the Su-6 ...

[Amateur]

Again? Recently it was discussed. Well, there were no engines for Su Shek and others. Why again blablabla.

[svp67]

Quote: Amateur

Well, there were no engines for Su Shek and others.

So them, for a while and for Ilov was not ... so what?

[infantryman2020]

Regarding the statement in the preamble to the post:
During the Second World War, military aviation was definitely not the main striking force of the Soviet Union. Neither on a strategic nor tactical scale.
And, in general, aviation is not a strike force, but a means of fire destruction.

[Pavel57]

Quote: knn54

The Su-6 was better than the IL-2M. But the IL-10 was already inferior in terms of basic characteristics.

Su-6 appeared later than necessary. The engine with which it had advantages - the M-71 was not in the series.
IL-2M was interesting, which did not go into the series. It was created for the tasks of both the attack aircraft and the bomber.

But the IL-10 grew out of the IL-1, there was one advantage - higher speed. But the combat effectiveness was lower in comparison with the IL-2.

[ser56]

a far-fetched topic, an important question - why the Su-2s ceased to be manufactured - there was a good airplane in the series

[Pavel57]

Quote: ser56

a far-fetched topic, an important question - why the Su-2s ceased to be manufactured - there was a good airplane in the series

The question is good.
For starters, one must look at the availability of plants, taking into account evacuation and materials. (There were definitely motors for it).
And then there was a fashion for twin-engine bombers. Although there is a clear contradiction. Twin-engine attack aircraft were rejected for overrun engines, and bombers give only twin-engine.