"To Berlin!" How was the final blow prepared for the Third Reich

"To Berlin!" How was the final blow prepared for the Third Reich

The Berlin offensive operation was not just the “final chord” of the Great Patriotic War, but also one of the most ambitious among its battles. Entire volumes have been written about her, both in the fiction and in the memoir genre; many films have been shot, both documentary and feature. However, to this day, attempts are being made to audit this historical battle, to present it not as an example of military art, but almost as a failure of those who planned and stormed the Nazi den. Well, we will try to give an answer to them.


It must be said that among recently grown large quantities both in the whole world and, alas, in our country, amateurs who apply “new interpretations” to the history of the Great Patriotic War (as a rule, they consist in attempts to belittle the feat and victory of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers), the theme of the Berlin operation is especially popular.

For example, the sect’s witnesses “corpse ruined”, striving to “prove” at all costs that we defeated the Nazis at an “exorbitant price”, proving with foam at the mouth that the capital of the Third Reich ... did not need to be stormed! “They would have surrounded, blocked — the Nazis would have surrendered themselves!” But people would not have died ... ”This is approximately what“ argumentation ”sounds from those who, not being able to command even a detachment, undertake to judge the actions of generals and marshals.

Also, there is “widespread evidence” among the above-mentioned public that there is “reliable evidence” that Zhukov could have taken Berlin in February 1945, with “little blood” and absolutely wild fantasies such as “Stalin intentionally pitted Konev and Zhukov, pushing their foreheads in the Berlin operation. " For the most part, the main essence of the accusations from various “whistleblowers” ​​boils down to taking the city “anyhow, without a plan and strategy”, again paving the way for the victory of “unnecessary” victims. What can be answered?

Of course, the truth. It consists primarily in the fact that the need for the capture of Berlin by the Red Army was best justified by the British Prime Minister (and never a friend of the USSR) Winston Churchill in a letter addressed to US President Franklin Roosevelt. Sir Winston believed that the mastery of the German capital “would give rise to a false impression among the Russians that it was them who made the main contribution to the victory over Nazism,” and this, in turn, “would create very significant and serious problems in the future." Here is a rascal, though a lord! That is, the main role of the USSR in the defeat of the "brown plague" is exaggerated and "erroneous"? Obviously, even then the British prime minister, whose sagacity cannot be denied, foresaw our “we can repeat” ...

Intentions to take Berlin and "meet the Russians as far as possible to the East" were also present at Roosevelt himself, who gave the appropriate orders to his military leaders. Fortunately, most of them turned out to be realistic and soberly assessed the correlation of their own capabilities and the power of the Red Army. Nevertheless, there was no question of any refusal to storm the main enemy lair, as well as attempts to starve him out. Let me remind you, by the time the operation began, the Wehrmacht had more than 220 fully combat-ready divisions and brigades. What siege is this ?! And if we take into account, on the one hand, the desire of the majority of the leaders of the Third Reich to reconcile with the United States and Britain, and on the other, the plans of our “allies” like Operation "The Unthinkable", in which just surrendered should be used as the strike force against the Red Army before the British and Americans the Nazis, then everything could end completely badly. Berlin had to be taken, period!

Rumors about the possibility of taking possession of the city a few months earlier (then it really was not yet so fortified and filled with troops as in April-May) arose from the very real intentions of Georgy Konstantinovich. Fifteen years after the Victory, he was remembered by another more than honored commander, Marshal Vasily Chuykov. Like, Zhukov “slammed” a good moment. In fact, it has long been proven that an attempt to capture Berlin with a “dashing swoop”, having the Wehrmacht Pomeranian group in the north, which subsequently managed to be liquidated with considerable work, would most likely have ended in disaster. So they were already advancing - in 15 near Kharkov and not only there ...

The planning of the Berlin offensive was carried out at the very top and in as thorough a manner as possible. The commanders of the 1st Belorussian and 1st Ukrainian fronts, Marshals Georgy Zhukov and Ivan Konev were summoned to the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command. As far as we know, Stalin met with each of them individually and asked the same question to everyone: “Who should take Berlin - allies or we?” It is clear that the answer that may have sounded in the office of the Supreme was unequivocal. Each of the commanders said that the troops of his front were ready to “finish off the fascist reptile” and were eager for battle as one man. Well, the honorable mission went to both. Not only that, the 2nd Belorussian Front under the command of Konstantin Rokossovsky also participated in the grand blow, inflicted by a colossal “trident” consisting of three enormous groups of the Red Army.

By the way, a lot of gossip to this day is also connected with this moment. Indeed, before the start of the operation, Rokossovsky was removed from the command of the 1st Belorussian and transferred to the 2nd. According to his own recollections, the marshal allowed himself to directly ask the Supreme: “Why such disfavor?” And in response I heard that his site in the upcoming attack is also important. So it’s not opal, but high trust ... All conspiracy theories like “Stalin removed Rokossovsky because Berlin couldn’t take the Pole” or “the Marshal sitting in the camps” are not worth a damn. In the direction of the main blow, Stalin needed commanders who would not go, but literally shove through, sweeping everything and everything in its path. There were no better candidates than Zhukov and Konev.

Zhukov really literally broke into Berlin, overcoming the powerful fortifications erected on the approaches and in the city itself, took possession of the capital, where every house, every street and intersection was turned into a fortress and defended, as a rule, to the last. However, the troops of Konev and Rokossovsky no less brilliantly coped with the tasks assigned to them when planning the operation: the city was reliably blocked both from the north (2nd Belorussian Front) and from the south (1st Ukrainian Front). Not a single attempt to break through to help the battered garrison of the capital (and such were undertaken, moreover, very desperate), was unsuccessful. A significant role in the operation, as planned, was played by the forces of the Dnieper military flotilla and the Baltic Fleet.

There is another fable regarding direct planning for an attack on Berlin. It is connected with the fact that Stalin, personally drawing a dividing line on the map that determined the lines of action of the 1st Belorussian and 1st Ukrainian fronts, suddenly cut it off at Lubben, located 60 kilometers southeast of Berlin. Some people are inclined to see in this the desire of the Supreme “to arrange a race between the marshals”, pushing them to even greater competition. It is difficult to comment on the flight of fantasy, which causes bewilderment ... It would be more logical to assume that Stalin simply stopped due to the fact that the troops had to go on Lubben on the third day of the offensive. And in any case, the disposition would have to be clarified by Stavka - which, incidentally, was subsequently done. The explanation is simply banal. But to write about “bleeding off marshals” is, of course, more attractive ...

Planning and preparation for the last and decisive battle of the Great Patriotic War, the selection of generals and the alignment of forces - all this was carried out at the highest level. And this was proved by the Banner of Victory, raised above the Reichstag in May 1945, unforgettable for all of us.
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  1. tihonmarine April 6 2020 12: 05 New
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    Nevertheless, to this day attempts are being made to revise the assessment of this historical battle, to present it not as an example of military art, but almost as a failure of those who planned and stormed the Nazi den.
    There are always such "thinkers" who if, if only. But I’ll say easier, two fighters entered the ring, and one cleaned the face of the other, and no matter how argue, and do not prove what a technical freak with a beaten face, the referee will raise his hand to the winner, not the loser. In the words of my teacher, a participant in the Second World War "It was better to fight, not to scratch your tongue."
    1. Varyag_0711 April 6 2020 12: 19 New
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      tihonmarine (Vlad)
      and do not prove what a technical freak with a beaten physiognomy, the referee will raise his hand to the winner, not the loser.
      Well, we must pay tribute to the weirdo, this weirdo stuffed his face to the finals, and not too sickly stuffed. He just didn’t expect that in the final the fight would last not for three rounds, as he expected, but for 33. This freak just got used to winning by knockout in the first round, and here he seemed to have knocked down the opponent to the third round, but the opponent got too painfully stubborn they beat him from the discharge, and he grows stronger. And then the weirdo suddenly realized that he didn’t have enough strength for 33 rounds.
      And so yes, after a fight, waving their fists at all, especially in Europe and Amerzosia, there they are all strong with a back “mind”, or no mind, they have more than a fifth point in honor. At least they always save her in the first place ... laughing
      1. Basil50 April 6 2020 13: 33 New
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        In Germany * experts * on WWII well, sooo much. Especially a lot of those who with foam at the mouth about * dead bodies * or about the incredible cruelty of the KRASNO ARMEYS, something else so equally thoughtful. At the same time * eyewitnesses * becomes more and more ..

        Today * experts * are even bigger and they lie even more inspiredly. Especially today in Europe and in the same Germany there are ideas about the * insanity * of the German command and about bribery, or even about * the KREMLIN * arm. There are many ideas to justify * a broken face *. As a result, it is very popular to consider conducting military operations with the aim of * avoiding mistakes in the future *.
        What Germany doesn’t have in Europe is repentance for the destruction of SOVIET CITIZENS.
        1. Varyag_0711 April 6 2020 14: 11 New
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          I agree. But not only in Germany. Let’s remember when this myth arose about the collapse of the corpses of Soviet soldiers? Yes, exactly with the coming to power of a traitor bear-labeled. And then it started like a snowball and about detachments, and about the penal battalion, and about other heresy. Moreover, no one wanted to hear sober voices about a real assessment of the causes of defeats in the first months of the war. From all sides there were spits ... Ahhhh ... yeah, you’re a scoop, you don’t know anything except soviet propaganda, you are a damned Stalinist and a man-hater and so on and so forth. And now there are still plenty of such Neanderthals, including those in VO.
          But now I always want to ask them, but where did the whole color of the Wehrmacht go by the end of the war? Why already in 1943 the TOTAL mobilization of Germany was announced? Why were children and old people called to the front in 1945? What, the whole Wehrmacht was transferred from the eastern front to the defense of the "Atlantic Wall" (was it in reality exactly the opposite)? Where did the gloomy German genius of tactics and strategy aki Manstein, Guderian, Runstedt, Goth and other geniuses of the Wehrmacht evaporate? Did they forget how to fight at one moment?
          And the casket just opens, provided that you drop all this liberal nonsense and look at the situation soberly. The losses of only one Wehrmacht in relation to the losses of the Red Army will be somewhere at the level of 1: 1,2-1,3, BUT the devil, as always, is in the details. As with the exaggerated accounts brought down by "valiant" German asss, the Wehrmacht's losses are greatly underestimated. Among other things, I can of course be mistaken, but the emnip in the Wehrmacht’s losses did not take into account the losses of the SS troops, especially since not only Germans served in the SS, but there were also formations from all kinds of dykes from all over Europe and not only that they were not considered because they were not Germans. Plus, no one ever considered the losses of the Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, Croats and other allies of the Third Reich, including the loss of the “blue” (Spanish) division. If all these losses are added up, the situation will change in a mirror and the losses will already be about 1,3: 1, but in favor of the Red Army.
          At the same time, in the losses of the Red Army, not very smart individuals (I put it mildly, Sergei Viktorovich gave them a very clear definition) are trying to attribute the loss of civilians, which was to be completely destroyed according to Hitler's plans. As a result, to listen to our local olgovichs and Co., the Red Army lost 40 million, and this is still modest, some double or even triple this figure. Well, the monitor, like paper, will endure everything as you know.
          In general, this topic can be developed into a full-fledged article, and for this you can get a ban in the comments.
          Something like this. hi
        2. Octopus April 6 2020 14: 17 New
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          Quote: Vasily50
          In Germany * experts * on WWII, sooooo many

          What? What specific specialists from Germany who are pedaling the theses you have outlined do you know?
          Quote: Vasily50
          so this is repentance for the destruction of SOVIET CITIZENS.


          Rescue your own soul. The Germans will deal with their sins without you.
          1. Varyag_0711 April 6 2020 14: 38 New
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            Octopus
            What? What specific specialists from Germany who are pedaling the theses you have outlined do you know?

            Well, that's one of those painfulfool that I wrote about in the comments above.
            Aw, sickly ... The fact that one of the German leaders knelt there, absolutely does not mean anything. The photo is obviously old and I honestly cannot make out who is on it. I can only assume that one of the leaders of Germany is possible on it (moreover, the question is which one?). But even so, what does that change?
            Germany now and Germany 25-30 years ago, these are two big differences. If before Nazism in Germany was prosecuted up to criminal punishment, now the situation has changed radically. Yes, politicians are still openly embarrassed to say that they are not against the revival of Nazism, but the situation inside Germany is already changing and far from for the better. If the older generation is still brought up on repentance, then modern youth is ready to absorb Nazism with renewed vigor, especially against the background of what migrants are doing in Germany. The soil is already ripe there.
            So open your eyes, however it will not help you, you are a professional troll and go to VO not for the truth, but for the next portion of slop ... laughing
            1. Octopus April 6 2020 15: 08 New
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              Quote: Varyag_0711
              which I wrote about in the comments above.

              I honestly have not read your comments.
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              that it is possible one of the leaders of Germany

              You are in vain proud of your ignorance. This is Willy Brandt, 4th Chancellor of Germany. By the way, anti-fascist, on illegal or in exile since the 33rd year, Willy Brandt - party nickname. That is, it is precisely his personal guilt - there is not a drop.
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              but the situation inside Germany is already changing and not for the better

              You're right. With the inclusion of the GDR in Germany, their Gryzlovs and their Zhirinovskys climbed out there.
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              The soil is already ripe there.

              For what? For the final solution of the Russian question? I doubt it very much. To expel all migrants to their homes, at least those who are on benefits, at least those with a criminal history? I do not see anything wrong with that.
              1. Varyag_0711 April 6 2020 16: 33 New
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                Octopus Today,
                I honestly have not read your comments.
                But I condemn ... laughing
                You are in vain proud of your ignorance. This is Willy Brandt, 4th Chancellor of Germany.
                laughing laughing laughing Here a little under the table from laughter did not fall. It turns out I have to know all the Chancellors of Germany in the face in your eyes to seem impolite? Are you friends with your head? And let me lay out on your ball any photo of some first leader of any country that has come across, and you can tell me without a search engine? Warm up ... So do not you me crowing about ignorance.
                You're right. With the inclusion of the GDR in Germany, their Gryzlovs and their Zhirinovskys climbed out there.
                Are you talking about Frau Merkel so derogatory now?
                To expel all migrants to their homes, at least those who are on allowance, at least those with a criminal history? I do not see anything wrong with that.
                I also don’t see anything wrong with expelling a criminal element, but the trouble is that with good slogans, bad things begin. Hitler also argued for everything good against everything bad (for the Germans), how did it end up reminding probably not?
                For what? For the final solution of the Russian question? I doubt it very much.
                For those who strongly doubt, the whole "enlightened" Europe, once in a hundred years, is going to solve this notorious Russian question, well, then you yourself know ...
                1. Octopus April 6 2020 16: 58 New
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                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  and you tell me without a search engine by eye?

                  Does the right button work for me alone?
                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  Are you talking about Frau Merkel so derogatory now?

                  Yes. I do not like Merkel. I don’t like a lot of people.
                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  Hitler also argued for everything good against everything bad (for the Germans), how did it end up reminding probably not?

                  Now everyone who advocates all that’s good should be preemptively shot, or what?
                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  For those who strongly doubt, the whole "enlightened" Europe, once in a hundred years, is going to solve this notorious Russian question, well, then you yourself know ...

                  It turns out, slowly.
  2. BAI
    BAI April 6 2020 12: 09 New
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    Not an article, but continuous slogans. Samsonov has an order of magnitude more factual material.
  3. Old Horseradish April 6 2020 12: 31 New
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    The article resembles the speech at the May Day demonstration. No analysis, not even loss of parties, is given. By the way, if I'm not mistaken, they are still classified. At least the data on the losses of the Polish troops with Polish sources differ significantly.
    1. lucul April 6 2020 17: 24 New
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      The article resembles the speech at the May Day demonstration.

      Well, when there is nothing to argue, then there are only references to propaganda. An old liberal trick - as women usually do - you will pin it to the wall with facts, and she, as usual, will immediately transfer arrows to another chukhnee .....
      Correctly, all the author painted.
    2. Steen April 6 2020 23: 45 New
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      The Varangian has already written about the losses. Scientifically substantiated the ratio of 1,3 to 1 in favor of the Red Army. Everyone who disagrees writes down in painful ones.
  4. businessv April 6 2020 12: 41 New
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    And it proved the Victory Banner, raised above the Reichstag in unforgettable for all of us in May 1945.
    Thank you, Alexander, for the article! Our, and especially foreign liberals and democrats need to constantly be reminded of how things really were, and especially gifted neighbors also that “we can repeat”! hi
    1. Octopus April 6 2020 14: 21 New
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      Quote: businessv
      Our, and especially foreign liberals and democrats need to constantly be reminded of how things really were, and especially gifted neighbors also that “we can repeat”!

      You're right. Will be meaner.
      1. mole April 8 2020 08: 36 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Quote: businessv
        Our, and especially foreign liberals and democrats need to constantly be reminded of how things really were, and especially gifted neighbors also that “we can repeat”!

        You're right. Will be meaner.

        By your logic, if you do not remind, then they will become kinder ???
        And if you also repent, then we’ll intermarry ???
        You made me meaner with your comment!
        1. Octopus April 8 2020 09: 37 New
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          Quote: Mole
          By your logic, if you do not remind, then they will become kinder ???
          And if you also repent, then we’ll intermarry ???

          Yes, in the damned 90s they tried to crank something up. More or less happened. Similar to all European countries. The French fought with the Germans (the last thousand years) much more than Russia, but somehow got used to it.
          Quote: Mole
          You made me meaner with your comment!

          You do not seem to understand. There are only two chairs in this task.

          Or Russia, like most European countries, leaves the past in the past and is trying to choose the most appropriate language for all regarding WWII. Including acceptable for the Germans. Naturally, at the official level, write what you want in the leaflets.

          Yes, this is Kolya from Urengoy, it is this position that is considered suitable for all parties. The war is bad, and all people are good. And if someone is bad, then let's not talk about it.

          Or she will be billed all the accounts of the USSR. The key point in this sense is the revision of the Yalta and Potsdam collusion. Russophobes have already begun to shoot at this issue, but so far have been very far away.
          1. mole April 8 2020 11: 04 New
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            A lot of examples in history can be found and about got used to, and about dispersed.
            In any case, I adhere to the principle that winners should not be judged! And categorically against revising the outcome of the Second World War!
            Here you give a finger, they will completely devour, and we must remain!
            I am for the exploits of my Grandfathers, I and my children are not going to repent!
            1. Octopus April 8 2020 11: 33 New
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              Quote: Mole
              can be found about and got used to, and about dispersed.

              Right now - they got used to it. If you live in a communal apartment, it’s better not to crush your neighbors with corns. Yes, the current Polish government has a different opinion.
              Quote: Mole
              I am for the exploits of my Grandfathers, I and my children are not going to repent!

              It is as much as you like. But in private.
    2. Old Horseradish April 6 2020 18: 45 New
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      Quote: businessv
      "can repeat"

      Are you going to repeat the millions of victims in the besieged Leningrad, tens of millions of dead civilians of the USSR?
      In fact, this is a direct mockery of the victims of that terrible war.
  5. Cowbra April 6 2020 12: 47 New
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    But what's the point of discussing the speculation of liberotas? But they don’t even understand, in principle, how urban combat distinguishes itself from the classic combined arms. By and large, even using artillery in the city is not an ordinary problem. Where will the same Katyusha volley fly? To the nearest skyscraper.
  6. AlexVas44 April 6 2020 12: 56 New
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    Quote: tihonmarine
    "It was better to fight, not to scratch your tongue."

    Probably so. The top management knows better who and how, what and where. Personally, I am satisfied that my father in the 9GIAD (commander A. Pokryshkin) and took Berlin and freed Prague. He also managed to sign on the Reichstag.
  7. sevtrash April 6 2020 16: 03 New
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    "... There is another fable relating to the immediate planning of the offensive ..." This, in fact, in Konev’s memoirs describes, as well as his own opinion, that it is no accident. And the logic in this, of course, was. How many and how Konev got to Berlin, and how many Zhukov.
  8. ELEZKIY April 6 2020 17: 12 New
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    at the sight of the "penitent" Germans for some reason I want to find a machine gun. probably this is already innate ...
  9. Thunderbolt April 6 2020 17: 29 New
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    Let me remind you that by the time the operation began, the Wehrmacht had more than 220 fully combat-ready divisions and brigades
    Here I do not agree. 220 combat-ready is the state or 2/3 of the state of the knocked-together formations. Yes, the main backbone of the Wehrmacht and SS retained its operational structure /// for designating the names of divisions on operational-tactical maps, but this was no longer a full-time German army, but an assembly of combat groups of experienced Germans fighting for their land, but nevertheless, in front of Berlin, the Red Army surpassed the agonizing German Reich by its training, foundation, staff, support and combined superiority of forces. Berlin needed to be stormed, because The U.S.-Russia skating rink was approaching and unclear separate prospects loomed if the Nazis dragged on the defense of their capital. Just yesterday I watched the chronicle of the Falezskogo boiler --- it struck me that the surrendering Germans went out to the Americans with their hands up, stunned. And then the next scene --- the same Germans are standing, smoking, smiling at ease.
    1. voyaka uh April 7 2020 17: 41 New
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      "US-Union skating rink was approaching" ////
      ----
      The Americans approached Berlin two weeks earlier.
      And they settled on the Elbe, as was provided for in Yalta.
      Roosevelt forbade further progress. Although General Patton sent him
      telegrams every day.
      It was possible to storm Berlin slowly.
      1. Octopus April 7 2020 18: 49 New
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        What kind of fairy tales?
        Quote: voyaka uh
        General Patton sent emails every day.

        Patton is an army commander. He has three heads before Roosevelt (Bradley, Aiki, Marshall). Yes, he expressed his position on Aiki several times, but Aiki did not take it into account.
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And they settled on the Elbe, as was provided for in Yalta.
        Roosevelt forbade further progress.

        1. On the day when 83pd 19 corps crossed the Elbe, Roosevelt was not alive.
        2. Roosevelt did not forbid taking Berlin. Moreover, the ITT most likely was sure that the Americans would trample there - since he himself would have done (and did) exactly that. That would be a perfectly reasonable step on their part.
        According to winter plans, Berlin was supposed to take Montgomery from the north. For a number of reasons, these plans were covered with a copper basin.

        Eisenhower made the decision to abandon Berlin. In April.
        Quote: voyaka uh
        It was possible to storm Berlin slowly.

        After being surrounded, yes.
  10. Alexey RA April 6 2020 17: 57 New
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    Indeed, before the start of the operation, Rokossovsky was removed from the command of the 1st Belorussian and transferred to the 2nd.

    "Before the Beginning" is in November 1944. smile
  11. mark1 April 7 2020 09: 02 New
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    A demonstrative photo - not a single "frayed" fighter "under demobilization" (as in our little ones about the war) is not present, all have a statutory look - they are clean-shaven and neat.
    1. voyaka uh April 7 2020 17: 36 New
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      In the Berlin operation, the divisions were manned by 50%.
      The Red Army mobilization reserve has been exhausted.
      In the infantry were either boys 17 years old (a special set of 45 years old), or "old men" for 40 years.
      Or Central Asians (they carried out extensive raids on deserters).
      Only the tankers and gunners had sets of experienced fighters.
      The Germans had worse: the Hitler Youth brigade, several SS battalions
      and volksturm. The Germans did not have tank units in Berlin, they were sent earlier
      to Hungary, where they were defeated.
      1. Octopus April 7 2020 18: 53 New
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        Quote: voyaka uh
        The Germans did not have tank units in Berlin, they were sent earlier
        to Hungary, where they were defeated.

        Just before the offensive, Hitler ordered the transfer of GA Wisla's tank reserves to the GA Center, since he believed that the Red Army and the Allies would strike towards each other south of Berlin, in order to split the German forces in two. This was a perfectly reasonable idea; in March, Eisenhower proposed to the Soviet side just such an action plan.
  12. Operator April 7 2020 09: 27 New
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    "Zhukov really literally broke into Berlin, overcoming the powerful fortifications erected on the approaches and in the city itself, took possession of the capital, where every house, every street and intersection was turned into a fortress": what are “every house, street, intersection” - after carpet bombing of Berlin by the allied aviation in the city, only certain centers of resistance remained in the central (government) quarter, in the zoo, around the air defense towers, etc.
    1. chenia April 7 2020 16: 52 New
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      Quote: Operator
      what are "every house, street, crossroads" - after carpet bombing of Berlin with allied aviation in the city, only individual centers of resistance remained in the central


      So Stalingrad by the fall, nothing of the buildings remained, but HOWEVER ....!

      And they gnawed at Berlin with the help of artillery (moreover, in the variant when they did not report about the enemy, it was enough to look at the daily rate of attack), but they didn’t fill up with infantry.
      In Berlin. option - fight in the city, there are difficulties ..
      1. Operator April 7 2020 17: 01 New
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        But what, the city battles in Stalingrad, the Red Army led the attack for several months? laughing
        1. chenia April 7 2020 17: 10 New
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          Quote: Operator
          led in an attack for several months?


          Speak more specifically, but I can’t understand something. what are you doing? Stalingrad, the Red Army and the attack. Is this about football?

          And so, the ruins did not interfere with the defense for several months.
          1. Operator April 7 2020 17: 23 New
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            They correctly understood that after the destruction of the multi-storey center of Stalingrad (and the outskirts of the city consisted of one-story wooden buildings burnt down when the Germans approached) with carpet bombing, the Wehrmacht in 1942 occupied over 90% of the city territory for several days, with the exception of several defense centers in the tractor area factory, fueled by the Volga.

            Just like the Red Army in 1945 in Berlin - with the exception of the complete encirclement of the latter, the defeat of reserves outside the city and the liquidation on this basis of all centers of defense.
            1. chenia April 7 2020 17: 47 New
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              And where do you find the best conditions for defense, if not in the city (Do not offer Thermopylae)?
              Communication and management is a headache. The city is indented with canals. Underground communications. It’s more difficult to realize your advantage. Not the ones to turn around for armored vehicles, direct fire artillery and mortars. PDO - and here are the problems (shelter angles), again only howitzers, but mortars (and not batteries, separate guns). Aviation - difficulty orienteering. guidance in a rapidly changing environment. The need to prepare assault groups. ETC,

              Quote: Operator
              with the exception of several centers of defense in the area of ​​the tractor plant, fueled by the Volga.


              Well...! (where is August. and where is the end of November).
              1. Operator April 7 2020 17: 55 New
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                Nevertheless, the Wehrmacht defeated the Red Army in a destroyed Stalingrad (but not surrounded, which is important) in a few days, and then the Red Army defeated the Wehrmacht in destroyed (and surrounded) Berlin - despite all the underground communications.

                What are the problems with the aiming angles of the attacking guns and the vertical defense of the defending in the conditions of rarely sticking out building facades?

                The government quarter of Berlin, not affected by the carpet bombing, was a problem, but the Red Army solved it in a few days.
                1. chenia April 7 2020 18: 30 New
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                  И
                  Quote: Operator
                  Still Wehrmacht

                  I couldn’t (in 3 months) completely take over Stalingrad (but I got into the loop).


                  Quote: Operator
                  What are the problems with gun aiming angles


                  Sounds right - the smallest sights of the shelter angles. Hence, how to support artillery with a PDO with flat fire, it means only in a steep way (there’s also a corner of the meeting point when the shells fall not on the target, but on the adjacent high knowledge on the trajectory). I'm not saying how to place the battery on the street (only in parks and squares). And a significant part of artillery. will be turned off.

                  Quote: Operator
                  represented a problem, but the Red Army solved it in a few days.


                  The red army of the sample of 1945, however, and the main forces of the Wehrmacht on the approaches smeared.
  13. voyaka uh April 7 2020 17: 26 New
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    Since the beginning of 1943, Zhukov was removed from planning operations.
    He got everyone with his chronic incompetence, leading
    to overwhelming losses. Vasilevsky could not stand him.
    But Zhukov was personally betrayed to Stalin. Therefore, he became the "representative of the Bet"
    or he was given command of the front,
    And to the General Staff - not a foot.
    But the end of the war was approaching. Zhukov felt that he was in the background.
    And he pleaded with Stalin for the Berlin operation.
    And he conducted it in his classic manner - a frontal assault.
    1. boris epstein April 14 2020 10: 15 New
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      Content
      "MILITARY LITERATURE"
      Biographies
      CHAPTER THREE.
      ABOUT SOME RESULTS OF WAR AND THE PRICE OF VICTORY
      1. ABOUT CRITERIA AND THE PRICE OF VICTORY
      It is clear that the performance of combat missions in such difficult conditions was accompanied by heavy losses. But historical facts, their comparison, are refuted by such allegations (including Marshal I.S. Konev) that the losses directly controlled by Zhukov were significantly greater than on other fronts.
      Irretrievable losses in the Moscow offensive operation amounted to: the Western Front (commander G.K. Zhukov) - 13,5% of the total number of troops, Kalininsky (commander I.S. Konev) - 14,2%.
      In the Rzhev-Vyazem offensive, respectively - Kalinin Front - 35,6, Western Front - 20,9%.
      In the Vistula-Oder operation, with almost the same number of troops (a little more than 1 million people in each front), the loss of the 1st Belorussian Front was 17032 (1,7%) and the 1st Ukrainian Front was 26219 people (2,4%).
      In the Berlin operation, where the largest and most powerful enemy group opposed the 1st Belorussian Front, the 2nd Belorussian Front (K.K. Rokossovsky) - 3%, the 1st Belorussian (G.K. Zhukov) - 4,1% , 1st Ukrainian Front (I.S. Konev) - 5% of the total number of troops. Moreover, the enemy’s losses in the strip of the 1st Belorussian Front amounted to 232766 people and in the strip of the 1st Ukrainian Front 108700 people.
      In the Budapest operation, where the troops of the 2nd Ukrainian (R.Ya. Malinovsky) and 3rd Ukrainian (I.F. Tolbukhin) also had to take over the big city, the irreparable loss of personnel as a percentage (7,7%) were 1,5-2 times higher than the 1st Belorussian Front in the Berlin operation, including the 3rd Ukrainian Front 14%.
      True, various kinds of primitive tales and gossip are spreading about Zhukov’s activities during the war, which are not even worth refuting. Let the reader judge by at least such an example. This year's Victory Day on NTV showed an English film about Zhukov, in which the host claimed that our commander in the Berlin operation in order to pave the way for tanks through anti-tank minefields sent infantry forward. But the elementary-minded person in military affairs understands that this is nonsense, because a pressure of at least 250-500 kg is needed to undermine an anti-tank mine. Under the infantryman she will not be blown up.
      Merits in the Second World War and the leadership talent of Zhukov are recognized throughout the world. “I admire Zhukov’s military talent and his qualities as a person,” Eisenhower said. “When I was the commander of the allied forces in Western Europe, we all — and I, and my subordinates, and generals who commanded the allied military formations — literally held our breath watched the victorious march of the Soviet troops under the command of Zhukov in the direction of Berlin.We knew that Zhukov did not like to joke, if he set a goal to crush the main stronghold of fascism in the very heart of Germany, he would certainly do it ... We saw that, despite the frenzied resistance of the Nazi troops, the advancing Red Army firmly held the initiative throughout the entire Soviet-German front. "
      4 Zhukov didn’t ask anyone. Stalin knew that Berlin would be taken and that the capitulation of Germany had to be signed. 120 people had the right to sign it: Commander-in-Chief Stalin and representatives of the Supreme High Command Marshals of the Soviet Union Zhukov, Vasilevsky and Colonel-General Mehlis. The candidacy of the latter was allotted to Stalin. In favor of Zhukov, the chief of the General Staff of the Red Army, Army General AI Antonov and Marshal Vasilevsky (his memoirs "The Work of All Life") spoke out. The surrender of Germany was signed by the Beetles, Montgomery, Eisenhower, Delatre de Tassigny. The operation to encircle and rout the army of Paulus was conceived by Zhukov and Vasilevsky (“The Work of All Life.”) The first major rout of the Wehrmacht near Yelnya was designed and implemented by Zhukov. When Voroshilov could not stop the Germans near Leningrad, Zhukov was appointed. He could. It was Zhukov who drew attention to the large losses in the calculations of XNUMX-mm mortars near Leningrad and instructed engineer Afanasyev to construct a double-loading fuse. After a month he began to enter the army. This Zhukov saved thousands of lives of Soviet mortars. Although he had to pay attention to this and solve the problem Head of Artillery of the Leningrad Front LA Govorov, graduated from the Artillery Academy.
      1. voyaka uh April 14 2020 12: 47 New
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        "The operation to encircle and defeat the army of Paulus was conceived by Zhukov and Vasilevsky (The Work of All Life). The first major defeat of the Wehrmacht near Yelnya was designed and implemented by Zhukov. When Voroshilov could not stop the Germans near Leningrad, Zhukov was appointed. He could." // /
        ----
        1) Vasilevsky was forced to "enter" Zhukov in Stalingrad. Nothing to do with
        he had no planning for this battle.
        2) Under Yelnya there was no victory at all. The Germans deceived Zhukov as a child.
        They withdrew troops, and Zhukov hollowed out empty positions. And it was declared a victory.
        3) Zhukov did not stop the Germans near Leningrad.
        The operation to seize Leningrad was canceled by Hitler without clashes
        with the defenders, since there were not enough tanks near Moscow. ALL tanks were
        transferred to Moscow.
        1. Alexey RA April 21 2020 13: 06 New
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          Quote: voyaka uh
          3) Zhukov did not stop the Germans near Leningrad.
          The operation to seize Leningrad was canceled by Hitler without clashes
          with the defenders, since there were not enough tanks near Moscow. ALL tanks were
          transferred to Moscow.

          None, that was it. Savsam ne so.
          ©
          Directive No. 35 of September 06.09.1941, 15, von Leebou ordered to completely surround Leningrad, connecting with the Finns on the Karelian Isthmus. The completion date is no later than September XNUMXth.
          3. On the north-eastern front, together with the Finnish corps advancing on the Karelian Isthmus, surround the enemy forces operating in the Leningrad region (also capture Shlisselburg) so that no later than 15.9 a significant part of the mobile troops and formations of the 1st air fleet, especially the 8th air corps, release for Army Group Center. However, first of all, it is necessary to strive for the complete encirclement of Leningrad, at least from the east, and, if weather conditions permit, to conduct a major air attack on it. It is especially important to destroy water supply stations.

          Von Leeb grossly violated this Directive (for which he ultimately paid). Instead of the forced Neva crossing (one NKVD division defended the river’s border) and a strike between Leningrad and Ladoga towards the Finns, he decided to take Leningrad himself. The operation was reminiscent of Berlin-45: it was planned to cut off a regular army at the frontiers of defense, preventing it from moving away - and then take a defenseless city.
          Being limited in time by using a strong group of tank formations of the XXXXI motorized corps, von Leeb decided not to use it to solve the problem of breaking through towards the Finns, but to crush the Soviet troops on the near approaches to Leningrad. In the case of encirclement and destruction of troops occupying the Krasnogvardeisky UR, the isolated city had no defenders left and the assault could be completed by the infantry divisions of the army corps remaining after the 4th Panzer Group left.
          © Isaev
          The offensive began a few days before the arrival of Zhukov - so he had to stop the Germans. And the advancing Germans were precisely stopped: despite the fact that von Leeb had delayed the transfer of 4 TGs until September 17, he was unable to encircle our troops. And that means the operation to capture Leningrad failed.
          On September 17, the attackers captured Pushkin, and the soldiers of the 1st Panzer Division reached the final stop of the Leningrad tram - German tanks stood only 12 km from the city center. However, there was no time left for advancement to the city and the defeat of the 42nd Army: formations of the 4th Panzer Group were withdrawn from the front and sent to the rear for loading into echelons or forming marching columns.
          1. voyaka uh April 21 2020 13: 36 New
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            "the use of a strong group of tank formations XXXXI
            motorized housing "////
            ----
            1) The Germans did not have any strong tank group near Leningrad.
            90% are light tanks. T-2, Czech and trophy T-26. And a few trophy HF.
            And even they were selected near Moscow (except for the T-26).
            2) The Finns stopped at their border for 39 years and did not move on.
            3) The Germans did not have the slightest technical opportunity to force the Neva with its powerful current.
            4) The Germans took Pushkin and Peterhof without battle by the advanced detachments.
            And there were no major forces behind them.
            ----
            This whole story with the impending assault on the city is an invention of historians,
            to explain how Zhukov "saved the city."
            The Germans did not have forces to storm such a big city.
            But the defending forces, of course, were also few.
            1. Alexey RA April 21 2020 14: 40 New
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              Quote: voyaka uh
              1) The Germans did not have any strong tank group near Leningrad.
              90% are light tanks. T-2, Czech and trophy T-26. And a few trophy HF.
              And even they were selected near Moscow (except for the T-26).

              On September 10, 1941:
              - in the 1st panzerdivisia there were (total / combat-ready): 11/9 “one”, 43/28 “two”, 71/43 “three”, 20/10 “four”.
              - in the 6th panzerdivisia there were (total / combat-ready): 11/9 “units”, 47/38 “twos”, 155/102 “Pz.35 (t)”, 30/21 “four”.
              Source - the first volume of Panzertruppen by Jenz.
              And you are very free to handle dates.
              According to the plan, von Leeb was supposed to complete the first part of the operation - cutting off the 42nd A and 55th A from the city by September 15th. In fact, the XXXXI motorized corps (in which there were all 4 TGr pansherdivies - 1st and 6th) began to be withdrawn from battles only on September 17th. At the time of the withdrawal, the corps came 9 days, reached Pushkin, but Soviet forces were not cut off from Leningrad. So the operation failed even before the withdrawal of part of the forces of the 4th TGr.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              2) The Finns stopped at their border for 39 years and did not move on.

              The Finns directly told the Germans that they agreed to storm Leningrad, subject to the successful development of the German offensive.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              3) The Germans did not have the slightest technical opportunity to force the Neva with its powerful current.

              Yah? In fact, the Germans calmly threw a tank group across the Dnieper. And as for the powerful currents - ours calmly crossed even the HF on ferries across the Neva.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              This whole story with the impending assault on the city is an invention of historians,
              to explain how Zhukov "saved the city."

              Yes, yes, yes ... and Directive No. 35 was also invented by historians. And on September 9, 1941, Gepner did not advance, but was preparing equipment for transfer to the Center Center strip. And Reinhardt did not take on September 12, 1941, Duderhof and the Red Village, going to the outskirts of Leningrad. smile
              1. voyaka uh April 21 2020 15: 32 New
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                You yourself listed the number of combat-ready German tanks.
                With such forces could one storm a multi-million city? smile
                In December, 41 also reached the outskirts of Moscow. C 72 (seventy two)
                combat ready tank. They thought ... and naturally received an order to dig in,
                move on to defense until spring.
                Only 2 days later did the Soviet offensive begin.
                1. Alexey RA April 21 2020 16: 26 New
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                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  You yourself listed the number of combat-ready German tanks.
                  With such forces could one storm a multi-million city?

                  No need to replace the number of troops defending the city with the population of the city.
                  Moreover, von Leebou's tanks were needed only at the first stage of the operation — to cut off the Soviet 42nd and 55th A units from the city and encircle the units. And the infantry of the GA North had to finish off the encircled ones and take the city after September 15.09.1941, 4. ", remnants of the XNUMXth TGr and Finnish infantry.
                  The headquarters of the 4th TGr and the XXXXI motorized corps were quietly leaving near Moscow.

                  As for the defense capabilities of Leningrad in the absence of a regular army, the city’s mobility potential and armament stocks were quite strongly selected after being mobilized in the regular army and the subsequent formation of the LANO in August-September 1941. Tank 45-mm cannons on a wheeled chassis did not appear from a good life.
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  In December, 41 also reached the outskirts of Moscow. C 72 (seventy two)
                  combat ready tank. They thought ... and naturally received an order to dig in,
                  move on to defense until spring.

                  Was Moscow completely surrounded and had no reserves in the immediate vicinity?
                  1. voyaka uh April 21 2020 20: 10 New
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                    Leningrad, too, has never been
                    completely surrounded. The army and navy received food regularly,
                    without interruption. Only the civilian population was starving.
                    There was a supply of ammunition and materials for ammunition.
                    They brought up reserves too.
                    In Leningrad, KV tanks were produced. And for
                    of them, too, part of the details was carried out from the outside.
    2. Alexey RA April 21 2020 13: 44 New
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      Quote: voyaka uh
      And he pleaded with Stalin for the Berlin operation.
      And he conducted it in his classic manner - a frontal assault.

      If Zhukov had a head-on assault, then in Berlin he and Konev would have met two German armies that had retreated into the city. And there would be no Halba boiler. And Wreath would not have to break into the city through the ring of encirclement.
      The assault on the Zeelov Heights was needed for the fastest possible access to the flank rear of 9th A and cutting it off from the city. Moreover, the tank armies acted as flexibly as possible: for a couple of days they searched for the weakest point of the German defense, found it - and, concentrating all their forces, broke through and went to surround the city.
      1. voyaka uh April 21 2020 14: 02 New
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        Berlin was taking “the forehead” of the 1st Belorussian front of Zhukov.
        The rest of the front were auxiliary.
        The Germans could move into the city and defend there.
        But Hitler categorically forbade.
        As a result, regular German troops were destroyed on the outskirts
        to Berlin. And in the city itself there were separate SS battalions, a brigade
        Hitler Youth and Volksturm.
        1. Alexey RA April 21 2020 14: 56 New
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          Quote: voyaka uh
          The Germans could move into the city and defend there.
          But Hitler categorically forbade.

          9th A on 23.04.1945/24/26.04.1945 confirmed receipt of an order for departure. On April 21-25.04.1945, 9, the 12st Panzerdivisia tried to break through to Berlin - to no avail. On April 9, XNUMX, the commander of the XNUMXth Army was ordered to establish contact with the XNUMXth A and liberate the capital of the Reich. Departure was strictly forbidden only to units covering the rear of XNUMXth A during this attack.
          However, Busset quite creatively interpreted the order received - and instead of a joint attack with the 12th A in the direction of Berlin, he rushed with all his might from the boiler to meet the Wreath. smile
          Quote: voyaka uh
          As a result, regular German troops were destroyed on the outskirts
          to Berlin.

          The remnants of the 56th TC, whose divisions left between 4000 and 200-500 people, also moved to Berlin.
  14. Operator April 7 2020 19: 00 New
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    Quote: chenia
    how to support artillery with PDO flat fire

    See the newsreel of Zhukov’s automobile passage through Berlin (before entering the government quarter) - the cleared road goes through a continuous field of gravel with rarely standing remains of facades.

    It’s not like PDO, you don’t organize hotbeds of resistance there laughing
  15. boris epstein April 13 2020 09: 33 New
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    "Zhukov really literally broke into Berlin." It was GK Zhukov who called the elimination of the Pomeranian group a priority. The Zeelov Heights assault was needed in order to prevent the most combat-ready Wehrmacht and SS troops from retreating to Berlin and taking part in street battles. Then, indeed, the losses of the Red Army would be cosmic. The blockade of Berlin without assault. Hitler exposed the Western Front. Army Field Marshal Wenck was ordered to go to Berlin. And if Wenck had time to surrender to Berlin, and the garrison of Berlin would deliver a counter-blow, a bloody mess would be ensured. About the preparation. Back in March 1942, the cartographic directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army received an order: to draw up a map of Berlin. The General Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff was connected to this. The map was very detailed — streets, alleys, land and underground communications — water supply, sewage, communication and power cables, underground passages, bomb shelters, all lines, control rooms, underground and ground rail workshops, canals, bridges.