Why ekranoplans are not needed by either the fleet or the aircraft as a whole

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Launch of anti-ship missiles "Mosquito" from the WIG "Lun". Effective but useless

As you know, the USSR at one time was a world leader in the development and production of ekranoplanes, having explicitly taken first place in the world on this subject - explicitly simply because no one else simply invested in this topic.

The USSR, having invested in the work of the Design Bureau named after Alekseeva serious resources, he was able to build in many respects unique designs from a technical point of view. True, they did not find practical application, and this is not just so, although they sincerely tried to attach them to the cause, sparing neither money, nor resources, nor, alas, human lives. And still it didn’t work out.



In post-Soviet Russia, enthusiasts have repeatedly tried to revive this area, and it is worth noting that the navy, for which these aircraft are designed in theory, rejects any attempts to resuscitate ekranoplanes.

This, as will be discussed later, is absolutely correct, as it should be.

However, and it is also worth noting that among the command of the marine aviation there are sympathizers of this type of transport. Moreover, lobbyists of the revival of ekranoplanostroeniya precisely through naval aviation today and are trying to "get back into business." Easy to imagine (and such things in the newest stories were made in Russia more than once - always with a huge destructive effect), the “ekranoplanostroiteli” lobbying chain - “their people in naval aviation” - “presentation bypassing command at the government level” - “receiving research and development work, for example, from the Ministry of Industry and Trade”. As a result, we again get the satisfaction of technical fantasies at the state expense, and in difficult economic conditions. And, as usual, then our propaganda will come into play, which in a couple of weeks will be able to convince the masses that now all our enemies will end, because we have a new old superweapon - ekranoplanes. And after that, there will be nothing to stop, as it is impossible to intelligently analyze in public the need to build MRCs or patrol ships of Project 22160 and much more.

And such attempts are planned today.

Thus, the topic is quite relevant. It’s worth coming back to it from time to time so that people don’t forget what the real world looks like, what works in it and what does not work.

Not a miracle of technology


Earlier at the Military Review, the topic has been raised more than once, for example, twice this author Oleg Kaptsov did in two of his articles (see "The futility of ekranoplanes" и "Wing is necessary ... as a dead man galosh") With all the emotionality, sometimes excessive, the conclusions in these articles are quite correct.

However, it is necessary to reduce emotions and arm yourself with some numbers and elementary logic.

Supporters of ekranoplanes usually use as an argument the supposedly high efficiency of ekranoplan as a vehicle, emphasizing the supposedly unique characteristics of the first large ekranoplan in the USSR - KM. Allegedly, with a maximum take-off weight of 544000 kg, the KM had a payload of 304000 kg, which is a record ratio between the weight of the aircraft and the payload.

Count. If you believe in these figures, the proportion of the equipped weight of the ekranoplan in the maximum take-off mass is a little more than 44%. This is incomparably better than that of modern passenger airplanes, with a significant share of modern composites in the design and the lack of aircraft fuselage reinforcements necessary for landing on water and flying in dense air near the ground. For comparison, the same parameter:

Embraer ERJ175LR - 56,2%.
Embraer ERJ190LR - 55,8%.
Embraer ERJ195LR - 57%.

Thus, 44% are absolutely unrealistic numbers. Even with modern technology. The best aircraft from the same years as KM had a ratio of 69-70%. At the same time, they should not land on the water and did not have corresponding glider amplifications. In addition, KM enthusiasts forgot fuel, and it should be considered a plus to the mass of an empty airplane or ekranoplan. Alas, it is very difficult to find fuel data onboard the CM, nevertheless, we can estimate approximately.

The turbojet engine VD-7 had a specific fuel consumption cruising at an altitude of 0,73-0,8 kg / kgf * h. At the same time, their starting (maximum) thrust was somewhere 11300 kgf. The KM flight range at a cruising speed of 430 km / h was 1500 km, which gives us a trip time of 3,49 hours. This range is traversed by two aft engines. Add here a 5-minute (0,083 hours) take-off on all ten engines.

According to the mind, it is necessary to make an accurate calculation, separately for the takeoff mode, with ten engines running and a different value of specific fuel consumption, etc.

We will not do all this, in principle, any engineer of a profile specialty, having all the necessary data, will easily count everything. We need an order of numbers.

There is a simple formula for hourly fuel consumption with steady flight parameters.

Q = Sud * G / K, where Q is the fuel consumption kg per hour, Court is the specific fuel consumption, G is the mass of the aircraft in kilograms and K is the aerodynamic quality.

The formula is inaccurate, used for approximate calculations, but we also need the order of numbers, no more. With a specific consumption of 0,8 kg / kgf * h for an aircraft weighing 500000 kg (we assume that part of the fuel took off) and aerodynamic quality 16 (accepted for today's ekranoplanes projects, but who has accurate data on the KM can substitute) hourly consumption - approx. 25000 kg. When flying for 3,48 hours, this is about 87000 kg. But we still have to take off. And takeoff is performed on ten engines, not two. Due to stupid extrapolation, we will take fuel consumption for take-off as 10 tons (although there really will be more). The very notion of practical range (and 1500 km of range for the KM this is it) requires us to have an unused fuel reserve. We multiply our 97000 kg by the minimum possible 1,05, we have 101850 kg of fuel. Let 102 tons. If you believe the fuel consumption figure of 30 tons on take-off mode, which some authors cite, then (30 + 87) * 1,05, and there will be 123 tons of kerosene.

That is, there is no supernatural weight perfection. Which is quite logical. At the same time, we clearly gave a head start to KM, accurate calculations or data on fuel consumption during take-off would give a different picture.

Why ekranoplans are not needed by either the fleet or the aircraft as a whole

Like Lun, KM is fetishized today

Thus, the payload we have left 181-202 tons, with a “handicap”. This is a lot for aircraft. Only An-225 Mriya could raise as much or more. And we compare: “Mriya” with a load of 200 tons could have a flight range of up to 4000 km, while KM - 1500, and then according to unconfirmed reports. Or you need more fuel. On the one hand, comparing these machines is dishonest; KM has much more ancient engines. But, the trouble is, there is nothing to compare with anymore, there are no analogues in mass or dimensions.

By the way, substituting the specific consumption of NK-87 engines (the most modern ekranoplan engines and exemplary D-18 peers from the "Mriya") in the formula for hourly consumption, we get a reduction in fuel consumption by only a third, by the way, so the "Mriya" is several times more efficient than hypothetical KM with modern engines (once it was built) and the same carrying capacity.

In addition, let us evaluate the fact itself: KM burns more than a hundred tons of kerosene for transportation of even a large mass of cargo, having a range of only 1500 km. With modern engines there will be slightly less than a hundred tons. We repeat - this is taking into account the fact that KM received from us a “head start” in fuel and payload. Where is that magical niche in the national economy in which such tricks are economically justified? Even without considering the cost of the life cycle of a machine with 8 or 10 engines? And, most importantly - taking into account the absolute impossibility of using this apparatus over land?

Counting a little more. Let us have 10 hours to prepare the miracle machine for take-off, after which it, having gathered 430 km / h, in two and a half hours delivers 200 tons of cargo to its destination per 1000 km and spends, for example, 40 tons of kerosene ( modern engines).

Total we have that in 12,5 hours we transported 200 tons of cargo at the cost of 40 tons of jet fuel. The same volume of transportation will be performed by seven typical road trains in 40 hours. The fuel consumption will be about 4 tons of diesel fuel. Instead of at least two pilots, with a salary of 300 rubles or more. per month (and for less money, nobody will go for IT), and only 000, you need seven drivers with a salary of 600-000 thousand rubles, up to 50 rubles in total. At the same time, trucks have incomparably lower cost of maintenance and repair and they are more flexible in application - they can then be put on different lines and sold in parts.

At the same time, logistics “rises” - the truck enters the warehouse and is unloaded there, there is no CM, it needs to load goods for transport and carry them further, we will not take into account the costs of this stage, but we would add time on the way - because that even if the truck reaches the destination in two hours, the cargo will finally be unloaded at the warehouse of the terminal in 14,5 hours from the moment the carrier issues an order for transportation and loading at the place of departure. If at the place of departure we add two hours from the warehouse to the port and to transshipment, then already 16,5 - up to the treasured figure of 50% of pure road transport is already nearby. And if the destination is 40 km from the port? At 100?

But what about the plane? A plane is faster than ekranoplan and is not tied to seaports. Air transportation is ordered mainly for the speed of delivery, and this speed includes both the high actual flight speed and the fact that an airplane with this speed can fly much further. Suppose a certain hypothetical ultra-modern winged wing type KM, but with the most modern engines, can probably deliver 50 tons of cargo to a range of 3000 kilometers with a speed of 430 km / h.

And the old An-22 can deliver the same 50 tons of cargo to a range of 4000 kilometers with a flight speed greater than about 180 km / h and without reference to the ports. But this is an old plane. Today, aircraft performance is much higher and speed is higher.

Interest for the sake of time. The ekranoplane will need 6,5 hours per 3000 km, then refuel after mooring (even if it’s all together for 2 hours, you can’t quickly do such things on the water), and then another 2,5 for the last thousand, which gives 10,5 hours in total 4000 km, and for an airplane with a speed of 580 km / h and without intermediate landings a little less than 7 hours - a third difference in favor of the airplane. Here it is, speed. When the ekranoplan moors, the aircraft will already undergo inter-flight service and will be under loading for the next flight, and the cargo will already be delivered to the recipient’s sorting warehouse and, apparently, processed there. In the period of 20-30 years of operation, the difference in economic effect is simply monstrous.

These analogies can be cited en masse and be considered with any input, the result will always be the same - the ekranoplane loses competition with other modes of transport. It’s as expensive as an airplane, but it can’t fly wherever it is needed, it requires at least the same amount of money for inter-flight service, but it doesn’t give such advantages, taking into account the time for the logistics of cargo from the winged craft and it’s on it for the time of cargo delivery to its The “typical” shoulder of the past years is generally comparable to trucks in speed. And this is precisely the reason why these machines have not been widely used anywhere. No one wants to get involved with such a business model because it is not viable.

Note that we are considering a certain ideal ekranoplan or an idealized KM (well, who really saw these 200+ tons of carrying capacity on it?), Or an even more idealized modern KM with normal engines.

But if you take the ekranoplans, whose performance characteristics were known and more or less disclosed, namely the "Eaglet", then there is a catastrophe quite eloquently described by Oleg Kaptsov: with a maximum take-off mass of 120 tons, the ekranoplan carries only 20 tons of payload. It is worthwhile to really compare this with the An-12, which had the same carrying capacity with a significantly lower mass and the best performance characteristics with not the most powerful 4 engines. Or with the same speed Mi-26.

Everything is obvious.

Well, of course, speaking of a hypothetical 200 tons of payload on the CM, it must be understood that to realize such a potential (turn out to be true) is possible only when transporting small cast iron ingots. Indeed, for a transport vehicle, not only load capacity is critical, but also the volume of the cargo compartment and the presence of loading hatches. KM did not have this, but the Eagles did, and we know very well today what weight gain they had.

And, of course, safety dominates this whole holiday of life. Of the 4 heavy ekranoplanes built in the world, 3 crashed, and for the same reason - due to an impact on water. This is the death sentence of the concept. And do not talk about stupid pilots who pulled the helm in the wrong direction. To make the helm stretch towards itself, and mechanization work out “in the opposite direction” - this is a question of one extra traction in the fur. drive control system or programming EMDS. This could be solved at the design stage. The problem is that this would not give anything - there are options when a device weighing hundreds of tons flying above the waves a couple of meters from the water can touch something for it, too much to see a solution to the “steering wheel from itself” all occasions. 75% of the ships that died in accidents and disasters - this is quite an indicator. Another figure that you can’t just get away with.

Not a superweapon


And then Lun pops up - a missile miracle with six anti-ship missiles, supposedly capable of destroying an aircraft carrier. Here you just need to exhale and tell yourself that you were again deceived, and the Lun aircraft carrier cannot be destroyed.


"Lun" in flight

To begin with, let's note this. When using anti-ship missiles for external target designation, Lun has no advantages over anything else. From a safe distance, anti-ship missiles can launch a ship or a group of combat aircraft in the same way. At the same time, unlike the Lunya, the ship will be able to be at the launch line for a very long time. This is generally an attribute property of surface forces - they can HOLD the water area, which is no longer available to any other forces.

At the same time, aviation is many times superior to ekranoplan in maneuver - it is faster in the case of fighter-bombers, faster at times, it can be transferred from the Baltic to the Pacific Ocean in a couple of days, which is impossible for ekranoplanes.

That is, when working from the outside of the enemy’s radio horizon, it doesn’t matter which carrier, the enemy will not be able to touch him anyway. Accident rate will matter, and the ekranoplan will have it “slightly higher” than the six Su-30SM - for obvious reasons.

But everything changes when it is necessary to carry out additional reconnaissance of the target and strike at the same time, that is, when it is necessary to get into the enemy’s ship’s air defense zone and do all the work on their own, by the forces of the strike group.

How can fighters work? They can work in different groups, from different echelons. For example, part of the machines can gain altitude, working on purpose with their radar, and give the TsU strike groups at low altitude. Aircraft can attack from different sides, they have a margin of speed to break away from the enemy, they can perform a missile defense, and when resetting / launching an attack weapons can lead an air battle. They are quite difficult to destroy all at once. If at all possible. Their speed of entry into the enemy’s radar field can exceed the speed of sound - sometimes significantly, and this reduces the time for the reaction of the enemy.

What about the ships? There is another story. Ships can use passive means for reconnaissance to detect enemy radar, periodically conduct aerial reconnaissance with helicopters, and then, according to the results of several measurements and reconnaissance searches, get an approximate location of the enemy’s ships, then the final risk throw of the helicopters, determination of the elements of target movement (speed, course), and immediately calculate the data and launch the first salvo until the data is out of date. And all this is from outside the enemy’s radio horizon. And - running on rapprochement, at top speed. This is a long process, it takes time, for which the ship should literally "feel" for the enemy, without getting into his radio horizon. The enemy, by the way, will do the same, the “cat and mouse” there will simply be hellish, but in the end, the ship has a chance to “figure out” where the enemy really is.

And the ship also has many missiles - even a small corvette has eight.

And ekranoplan what of this can? Nothing. Its radio horizon is slightly smaller than that of a surface ship, and is approximately 18-20 kilometers, the ship will detect it a few seconds earlier than the ekranoplan can launch its missiles according to its radar. Such a huge machine cannot have any low visibility even without taking into account how well the waves it lifts are detected. EPR ekranoplan-rocket carrier more than 1000 square meters. meters. These are ship values. For comparison: a stealth fighter (we will not poke a finger whose) is a maximum of 0,5 square meters. meter. The Su-30SM, hung with missiles and fuel tanks, is at the strength of 30. According to the rocket-carrying ekranoplan, the ship will calmly work out an anti-aircraft missile, and that’s all over.

And, of course, he can’t climb for many hours along the propagation boundary of the enemy’s radiation, calculating the approximate coordinates of their source, like a surface ship.

And also ekranoplan can come across enemy fighters. And here he, against the background of several Sukhoi, will also look very pale, and the separation of such a miracle from enemy aviation is obviously unrealistic - having a turn radius of several kilometers and a speed of 400-500 km / h, it is simply impossible to leave the fighters. No way possible.

And, of course, the Lun will not reach the aircraft carrier even without enemy opposition. According to open data on its characteristics, the flight range (or swimming) of the device is 2000 kilometers. Based on the “military” formula (“Combat radius = 0,33 of practical range”), we see that it would be possible to plan the combat use of “Lun” in the limiting form for 600-700 km from the basing port. This is too little to strike at large NKs, and even in those areas where a strike against aircraft carriers is likely, the Lun will not be able to act on conditions of unrest. In addition, he then also need to look for a goal, and with an external control unit, planes are better. Work faster.

It is worth noting that the ekranoplanes are incredibly demanding on the basis of conditions. They need an ice-free water area for take-off, they need to take a take-off distance on a boat before flying, making sure that there are no foreign objects such as empty barrels or logs on the water. This water area sometimes needs to be trawled by minesweepers and always provide underwater diversion support.

In order for expensive (and they will be VERY expensive) ekranoplans not to rot too quickly, you need to be able to pull them to concrete platforms ashore right next to the water for maintenance, repair and drying. This implies a particular type of chassis, with a corresponding loss in weight efficiency (or it should be a removable chassis, to which a detachment of divers with special equipment will be attached). All the supporting services that are at the aerodrome, based on ekranoplanes, should also be the only difference from the usual aerodrome is the absence of a runway and the categorical condition to be located on the shore. If the ekranoplane will be something similar to the “Lun”, you also need to solve the rebus of loading missiles into this device, which also requires infrastructure, at least a special crane.

As a result, any person who is able to think about this should naturally raise the question: why is all this necessary?

A bit of elementary logic


The question of whether we need this weapon or tool in this form, in fact, in the end always starts to sound different: what should we spend our modest money on? Moreover, in relation to the economic realities of Russia, the word "modest" often sounds differently - "last". Which is better - a fighter or several dozen cruise missiles? Minesweeper or repair a dozen anti-submarine helicopters? Replacing armored vehicles in the marine corps with a more modern one or repairing landing boats from which this battalion should land? There is never enough money and you always need to choose. What is so important, why do you need to take money in favor of ekranoplanes, doesn’t it matter, are we talking about transport vehicles or percussion? This is a matter of tasks. And you can rephrase it like this: "What tasks, the implementation of which may be urgently necessary, can only be performed by ekranoplanes?"

Answer: there are no such tasks.

And indeed! What does the impacted ekranoplan give us? Ability to attack surface targets. Well, we already have something to attack it with, there is aviation in the form of the Su-30SM, there is a theoretical possibility “for inexpensive” to make an analogue of the Soviet MPA based on the Su-34, upgrading this aircraft to use Onyx or Zircon anti-ship missiles, and better than both, there are submarines and surface ships. Where is the place for ekranoplanes with all their limitations? Nowhere.

The next day, airplanes can attack targets on the shore, supporting the landing, and ekranoplan?

So what is the best way to spend the last money - on airplanes (far from one) or for one "Lun"? After all, the program for the revival of ekranoplanostroeniya is, in fact, the creation from scratch of an entire industry! And the output is slow and vulnerable carriers, all of which are incomparably weaker than a simple Su regiment.


Choose the right one, the budget is limited!

Maybe we need a life-saving ekranoplan with the ability to land on the water? But we have a Be-200 and there are still several Be-12 combatant units that are already useless as anti-submarines, but which can still be passed through a major overhaul and converted into search and rescue.


Why revive the ekranoplanostroeniya, if you can just buy a production aircraft?

And there is also a relatively successful experience with discarded radio-controlled boats, which, in principle, make the possibility of landing on water uncritical. And these forces do not have the limitations that ekranoplanes have, and with flight safety, everything is much better. So where is the place for ekranoplanes? Nowhere.

WIG patrol? No, the plane flies higher, it can be seen from it better in any range. Transport for hard-to-reach areas? But this plane can land on a ski chassis, fly from ice and dirt pads, this plane can take turns in skiing, wheels and floats, or even a hybrid of skis with floats, but an ekranoplan does not. WIG needs open water without ice and a gentle beach, and a point.

For comparison - the plane:



Maybe we need a tool for a quick landing? Something that could bring soldiers and military equipment to shore? But in the world, even for the BDK there are few suitable beaches, and even those where the aircraft can go ashore, generally count on the fingers, and everything is mostly somewhere in Oceania. So where to land from ekranoplanes?

And most importantly - are they better than the Il-76 with paratroopers? Here you and speed, and the plane, and technology drops, and people. Need to compare the new Il-76 with the "Eaglet"? Probably not. And it’s not necessary to fly at an extremely low altitude - achieving dominance at sea and in the air, as well as surprise, are necessary requirements for conducting an amphibious operation, the ability to spread above the water in such conditions will not be critical, but the risks of such a flight with a whole company of fighters like times critical and will be - remember about 75% of non-combat losses.


A piece of the coastal zone may well be captured by the airborne forces - without ekranoplanes

Supporters of ekranoplanes like to fantasize about the fact that now new materials, engines and electronics will come up, and then it will be possible to make new ekranoplanes, and at the same time to train highly specialized pilots under them, push the steering wheel away from you when full of reflexes a normal pilot wants to pull it.

But for some reason none of them can answer the question - why is this all? What will dramatically increase our capabilities with ekranoplans?

Because there is no answer. Opportunities will not grow, money must be spent on something else. As it is, in fact, is planned. And the task of society is to make sure that all this remains.

Today, both the Navy as a whole and the naval aviation have monstrous gaps in the most important directions. So, we do not produce anti-submarine helicopters, nor anti-submarine aircraft. Few anti-submarine ships. One old collapsing aircraft carrier, which so far has nowhere to haul. The collapse in the mine forces, the terrible terms of repair and modernization of ships, the disaster in naval underwater weapons, the impasse in the doctrines of development fleet as a type of aircraft. Or, easier - we have a lot of problems that it’s time to finance in priority order for a long time. In such conditions, any “sawing” projects that require redirecting money from solving pressing problems to technical projection should be crushed in the bud.

And the revival of the ekranoplanes, desired by some stupid military figures, is one of the first places on the list of such strangulation projects.

Let's hope that the ekranoplanostroiteli will continue to have some failures on the way to the development of budget money. They have much to spend without ekranoplans.
522 comments
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  1. +2
    April 5 2020 05: 34
    There is a time for everything, maybe in the future there will be an application of these technologies, it’s like with airships, which are sometimes used sometimes.
    1. -6
      April 5 2020 06: 11
      and everything seems to be correct, and the arguments are valid ... but I, if I choose, would prefer to be at the moment of impact ... on the ekranoplan.
      1. +9
        April 5 2020 07: 17
        Eh old man, what's the point of you on the site .. "Only here the grandmother will not catch up, not humiliate the guardsman" (DMB). On an ekranoplan, she will definitely not catch up with you, never.
      2. +13
        April 5 2020 09: 16
        Quote: Dead Day
        and everything seems to be correct, and the arguments are valid ... but I, if I choose, would prefer to be at the moment of impact ... on the ekranoplan.

        And why not prefer, while others are at war, we on the ekranoplane are waiting for calm sea. They waited, flew (sailed), and while all the enemies were waiting, or sailed away or drowned, they returned, we wait further, and there you look and the war is over.
      3. +7
        April 5 2020 10: 42
        Yes, somehow disputed arguments, the author writes about quality at 16, and I found 25-30 and with theoretical possibility of bringing it to 50, but even at 25 the picture changes dramatically in favor of EP. This time.
        The author gave an extremely strange formula for hourly fuel consumption, how aerodynamic quality can affect the fuel consumption of the engine in the selected mode, and the number of working engines not taken into account if you apply this formula! With different modes, different consumption, of course.
        I’ve found another formula,
        The amount of fuel consumed per hour of flight is called hourly consumption. The hourly consumption is measured in kilograms per hour of flight, Ch kg of fuel./h or in liters of Ch l / h. Knowing the specific gravity of the fuel developed by the engine in this flight mode, thrust ... ... and the specific fuel consumption, hourly consumption can be determined by the formula

        where Cf, Cf are the specific fuel consumption of the turbojet engine and piston engines; Pп, Ne - thrust and power of turbojet engine and PD; γ is the specific gravity of the fuel, g / cm3. It can be seen from the formula that the hourly fuel consumption is directly proportional to the specific fuel consumption and the developed thrust (or power)

        https://vzletim.ru/upload/iblock/5f4/aerodynamics14.pdf
        There is no quality in this formula, which is logical. And according to this formula, the fuel consumption is not more than 22 tons per hour, or rather noticeably lower, explained below, for both engines, even with the maximum thrust I substituted, I left the specific consumption from the article, because traction to the edge. I don't know the mode, but I set the density of kerosene to 0,8. As in general, Mriya, which was mentioned by the author, has the same approximately hourly consumption, with 6 motors, 0,6 kg of consumption and a thrust of 4860 at a speed. It is easy to calculate that if the KM had motors like Mriya's, the consumption would have dropped at least twice. These are two.
        In principle, it’s possible to end this author’s gross mistake, but I got confused with the formula later than the rest, I’m not a techie, but I cut her eyes directly, so I’ll continue:
        The author compares EFs with airplanes, but does not mention hovercraft and hydrofoils, and here EFs are a direct competitor to them, and surpasses them both in speed and economy (SVP), even with the parameters that the author cited. (it is clear that we are not talking about the landing options, although ETs and how to drop them should not be discarded). These are three.
        For some reason, the author strictly ties EP to seaports, but why is this? Ships with a large draft of several meters are tied to the ports, what draft can a short plane have? Judging by the photo, the KM sediment is not more than 2 meters, but rather less. He went up to the pier with his nose, and in shallow water, by himself or in tow and ready. Weather protection is of course higher in the ports, but the cove there also settles, with little draft, something else. There is no need for ES tight binding to ports, certainly not like airplanes of comparable carrying capacity to airfields, these are four.
        1. +10
          April 5 2020 11: 27
          There is no quality in this formula, which is logical.


          Pn is the required thrust; aerodynamic quality is embedded in its formula.

          It is easy to calculate that if the KM had motors like Mriya's, the consumption would have dropped at least twice.


          On the moon there were modern engines like Mriya, NK-87, a special option for ekranoplanes. At KM, the specific consumption is 0,8 kg / kgf * h, for Lun engines 0,53, where did you get the drop in consumption by half, all other things being equal?

          That's the trick, that he whips kerosene as if into himself, even with normal engines.

          For some reason, the author strictly ties EP to seaports, but why is this? Ships with a large draft of several meters are tied to the ports, what draft can a short plane have? Judging by the photo, the KM sediment is not more than 2 meters, but rather less. He approached the pier with his nose, and in shallow water


          But the pier has the strength to withstand trucks, a cargo crane, jet fuel supply, access roads, change houses for workers, an administration trailer, an icebreaker, even if it’s not a big one, a busker, a raid boat — and that’s the port.
          1. +4
            April 5 2020 12: 38
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Pn - required thrust; aerodynamic quality is laid in its formula
            This is not indicated in the formula, just traction at the required mode.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            On the moon there were modern engines like Mriya, NK-87, a special option for ekranoplanes. At KM, the specific consumption is 0,8 kg / kgf * h, for Lun engines 0,53, where did you get the drop in consumption by half, all other things being equal?
            Allow me, you did the calculation for KM, just like I did, and on his march only two engines worked, unlike Mriya, in which there are six of them, as it were, the calculation is simple, two engines are three times more economical than six of the same ones, I gave number two. Like you, I did not take off.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            That's the trick, that he whips kerosene as if into himself, even with normal engines.

            I do not know such a trick; you did not show it in the article. )) Although the aerodynamics of Lun are tin of course. However, it is unlikely that he went to all eight engines in cruising mode. And for a warship, if not in itself - this is the norm. )
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And the pier has the strength to withstand trucks, a crane for cargo
            For example, from several sections loaded from trucks, floating bridges are assembled which 45 ton tanks can withstand. So the floating pier will not pull like that, and the non-floating even more so. All that you described is a base point, except for the icebreaker and the lighthouse)). And this item is much cheaper than just one GDP for an aircraft of much smaller tonnage and haha, more mobile. And the port is much cheaper than the airport, with incomparable cargo turnover.
            1. +6
              April 5 2020 13: 39
              This is not indicated in the formula, just traction at the required mode.


              Yes? Well, calculate Pn then for any aircraft. Required traction is G / K.

              Excuse me, you did the calculation for KM, just like I did, and on his march only two engines worked, unlike Mriya


              The number of engines is taken into account in the required thrust, and yet yes, there are two of them, I will give advice - do not use algorithms. which you do not understand.

              I do not know such a trick; you did not show it in the article. )) Although the aerodynamics of Lun are tin of course. However, it is unlikely that he went to all eight engines in cruising mode. And for a warship, if not in itself - this is the norm. )


              Even your 22 tons per hour is already a disaster. So everything converges there. The device is disadvantageous, from the word at all.

              For example, from several sections loaded from trucks, floating bridges are assembled which 45 ton tanks can withstand. So the floating pier will not pull like that, and the non-floating even more so. All that you described is a base point, except for the icebreaker and the lighthouse)). And this item is much cheaper than just one GDP for an aircraft of much smaller tonnage and haha, more mobile. And the port is much cheaper than the airport, with incomparable cargo turnover.


              Only the airport must have anyway.
              1. +3
                April 5 2020 14: 58
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Yes? Well, calculate Pn then for any aircraft. Required traction is G / K
                Okay, of course, with less quality and about equal weight, more traction will be needed. However, the ekranoplan is not any aircraft, it doesn’t even fly, and the quality 16 is clearly not about him, on the screen by itself, I found and brought a figure of 25-30. And with quality 25, the required thrust per 500 tons is equal to 20 tons, for Mriya, with the same 500 tons and quality 19, the required thrust is already 26 tons, I understand that at the surface and at altitude this is all plus or minus, again different speed but let it be so, and in this case the economy is already quite comparable, and for commercial designs! Let me remind you that the lifting force on the screen is noticeably higher than outside it, and this no less noticeably increases the conditional aerodynamic quality.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The number of engines is taken into account in the required thrust, and yet yes, there are two of them, I will give advice - do not use algorithms. which you do not understand.
                I did not understand earlier (did not delve into), I understood now, but for the advice of the ATP.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Even your 22 tons per hour is a disaster
                I pointed out that this is a frankly overestimated figure, which I also considered according to the formula without taking into account quality, but with maximum traction, although at cruising expense. How complicated it turned out. laughing
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Only the airport must have anyway.
                Yes, and early to refuse ports! tongue Especially shallow, and they are quite enough even for a fully-fledged analogue of KM. You can not say about airports for Mriya.
          2. +2
            April 5 2020 12: 42
            By the way, the Alekseyev ekranoplanes were built at a shipyard, albeit an experimental one, so the technologies there are not quite aviation, like the cost of construction, although this is already my speculation.
          3. -1
            April 5 2020 14: 55
            Moreover, do we have potential an adversary with whom we could fight naval landings?
            And in general - is there any expediency in sea landings now with us?
            USA? NATO? Japan? Not even funny ...
            Where else?
          4. -1
            April 6 2020 22: 27
            And the pier has the strength to withstand trucks, a cargo crane, jet fuel supply, access roads, cabins for workers, an administration trailer, an icebreaker at least not big, a busker, raids ......
            And is there a gdp for mriy in every zadrishchinsk? Are auto roads with infrastructure, gas stations, cafes, workshops in Russia the same everywhere? KM would have got its niche of cargo transportation.
        2. +1
          April 5 2020 12: 17
          0,6 kg consumption

          Feel free to take 0,5-0,52 ... 0,6 was in the 80s
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 12: 54
            In Mriya, 0,57-0,63 is indicated.
            1. +1
              April 5 2020 14: 42
              at the stand "T" 0.52 with me gave out stably ... it is clear that this is not in operation ... within the framework of a series of experiments, due to, in my opinion, two hundred thrust, but that was 10 years ago ... I worked on this task very solid Progress team ... therefore, as a last resort, I recommend taking the lower bound =)
              1. 0
                April 5 2020 15: 14
                Thank you, of course, but here it was all about engines of the 60s, so anachronism will be, sir. )))
    2. +2
      April 5 2020 08: 02
      Technologies, materials have changed and it is possible to return to airships, although in civil aviation.
      1. +5
        April 5 2020 10: 07
        The weather has not changed, so there will be no return to airships.
        1. -4
          April 5 2020 10: 29
          The climate is changing globally, but it does not affect the development of technology.
          1. +4
            April 5 2020 10: 39
            Of course it is changing. But hurricanes from this are not getting smaller. At one time (10-30 years of the last century), airships were in demand due to the weak development of aircraft construction.
            1. -2
              April 5 2020 10: 58
              Here, after all, how, we argue that planes, ekranoplanes, airships are better, but there will be some flying saucers.
    3. +7
      April 5 2020 08: 24
      Quote: Strashila
      There is a time for everything, maybe in the future there will be an application of these technologies, it’s like with airships, which are sometimes used sometimes.

      Of course there are. As found for hydrofoils. This is transporting people with giving the trip some exoticism. For other purposes, there is a better means.
      1. +7
        April 5 2020 09: 22
        As found for hydrofoils. It’s transporting people while giving the trip some exotic
        Hydrofoil boats are not exotic, but speed for a large number of passengers. What vessels can still boast of this, in such mass?
        1. +9
          April 5 2020 09: 54
          Quote: stalki
          Hydrofoil boats are not exotic, but speed for a large number of passengers. What vessels can still boast of this, in such mass?

          If you take into account the price of tickets, then that is exotic.
          1. +7
            April 5 2020 12: 55
            If you take into account the price of tickets, then that is exotic.
            Price is a completely different story and the fact that it is unjustifiably inflated is the cost of capitalism, and so they fully justified their purpose, especially under the Soviets.
            1. +2
              April 5 2020 14: 51
              and so they fully justified their mission, especially under the Soviets.


              On the rivers - they somehow justified. But there is always a road along the river. With stops. A "Raketa" walked its 65 km to Gorodets from Gorky with one stop in Balakhna. They drove it either for a drive, or only locals from Balakhna and Gorodets. And so by bus.
              Now, in general, seams - who needs a "Rocket" when they even drive to the bakery in their own car? Now the Volga even interferes with the people - there is only one bridges across it in the city area. Traffic jams are wild at the entrance to the bridge. With Oka the same problem - they ride only for a walk back and forth.
              1. 0
                April 5 2020 15: 07
                Quote: dauria
                But along the river there is always a road.
                Oh, I don’t know, there are different rivers, with different banks, and you won’t be able to climb other and dozens of kilometers from a boat.
              2. +1
                April 5 2020 15: 08
                Here in St. Petersburg, meteors still carry tourists, and in the old days, he often rode to Peterhof.
              3. Aag
                +6
                April 5 2020 19: 49
                Try to drive from Irkutsk to Bratsk by car - you will catch the advantage of "Kometa", "Meteor".
                Of course, with the prices of tickets under the Union it was different.
              4. 0
                April 6 2020 13: 06
                In the mid-80s, I had to repeatedly travel from Odessa to Ochakov and back on Comet. There was no better option either in time or in price.
              5. 0
                April 7 2020 21: 11
                In the upper reaches of the Kama, there are big problems with bridges (crossings are only in cities, Chaikovsky and Perm), and the roads do not run parallel to the river. Driving on roads only in terms of mileage turns out to be 2 times longer (sometimes more), in time the "Raketa" also turned out to be faster.
                In such conditions, "Raketa" turned out to be a real alternative to intercity buses (and even in the 70s it was generally uncontested, there were almost no roads)
        2. +2
          April 5 2020 19: 40
          Hydrofoil ships are not exotic

          And exotic too. I recall with enthusiasm a trip from the center of Leningrad (the 70s) to Peterhof on Meteor in sunny weather and a wave of up to 1 m. And I could get bored in a banal train.
      2. +7
        April 5 2020 14: 03
        Quote: SVD68
        This is transporting people with giving the trip some exoticism.

        For five years I sailed on the Meteor from the regional center to my city. On Meteor 4 hours, by train 8 hours. There were no buses then, asphalt too. The comfort of the Meteor and the train is not even worth comparing. So it was not exotic but the most necessary. And this is just the Urals, not Siberia with its open spaces.
      3. +2
        April 5 2020 18: 26
        unmanned transporters, ready for weeks to travel in the stratosphere with huge cargoes to sparsely populated places, while using refrigerators can save money, as well as refuel with hydrogen and not helium, because there are no people there .. I think they will be very popular, and you can take energy from solar panels at those heights are more efficient to use hydrogen in the same way instead of fuel and id.
    4. +2
      April 5 2020 09: 56
      Quote: Strashila
      There is a time for everything, maybe in the future there will be an application for this ...

      Surely there.
      He contacted quite a bit with experts on ekranoplanes from a past life.
      They convinced the usefulness of ekranoplanes.
      Now I’m not rushing into the battle for ekranoplans.
      But if R. Alekseev comes to life ... I will be sure of the success of this project.
      Who is against a plane with a triple load at an extremely low altitude ...
      And if necessary "Eaglet" took off at 3400 m.
      With experienced pilots and 4 points, a large one was acceptable (for flight).
      A beach instead of a landing strip ...
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 13: 42
        But if R. Alekseev comes to life ... I will be sure of the success of this project.


        Here I agree - if you can revive R. Alekseev, then the ekranoplanes will also turn out to be a useful thing. The probabilities are comparable.

        And if necessary "Eaglet" took off at 3400 m.


        If you only knew how that flight went ...
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 05: 01
          Quote: timokhin-aa


          And if necessary "Eaglet" took off at 3400 m.


          If you only knew how that flight went ...

          so tell or show. IMHO tales are
    5. +1
      April 5 2020 11: 00
      Not found. They do not provide any additional features beyond those available.
    6. +3
      April 5 2020 14: 43
      Quote: Strashila
      There is a time for everything, maybe in the future there will be an application of these technologies, it’s like with airships, which are sometimes used sometimes.

      It is quite possible that there will be, but not for the armed forces - such a technique is absolutely useless from the point of view of operational use. And the author of the article described in some detail why at that time Genzakazchik, represented by the Ministry of Defense, refused this development. I think that the situation will not change in the future, and as the resolution of the tsarist general said on a petition to develop a new weapon - "The benefit is doubtful, the harm is obvious."
  2. +13
    April 5 2020 05: 48
    This is the first and most complete article on marine ekranoplanes. Everything is laid out on the shelves, how and why. Virtually everything. A very good article. You can use it as a link in this topic. Thanks to the author.
    1. +5
      April 5 2020 08: 49
      Quote: tracer
      Almost all

      The main thing is missing:
      But what about ekrooslet?
      That is, flying vehicles capable of steadily walking on the "screen" and at the same time rising to a fairly high altitude. For example, the "hybrid" of the Sukhoi S-90 Design Bureau was supposed to rise to an altitude of 4 km.
      1. +5
        April 5 2020 09: 34
        Yes, and Eaglet quite a plane to 3 km ..
        1. -1
          April 5 2020 10: 20
          Quote: U-58
          Yes, and Eaglet quite a plane to 3 km ..

          Well, yes.
          And I was sure that it was an ekranoplan ...

          Ignerents are such Internet ... People tend to hide under the rug what they do not understand. They look, yeah, three kilometers is the ceiling, but how can it be in an ekranoplan? And they just don’t write a characterization.
          1. +1
            April 5 2020 12: 27
            I did not understand your sarcasm ....
            1. +1
              April 5 2020 13: 31
              When describing "Eaglet", its ceiling is very rarely indicated
              1. +2
                April 5 2020 13: 37
                Quote: Spade
                When describing "Eaglet", its ceiling is very rarely indicated

                When describing the "flights" of the Eaglet, evidence is given even less often
                1. +2
                  April 5 2020 13: 58
                  Not a flight of 3000 meters really was. How from there people then left without gray hair and not on a stretcher - it is not clear. On the verge of disaster, everything went.
                  1. 0
                    April 5 2020 14: 51
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Not a flight of 3000 meters really was. How from there people then left without gray hair and not on a stretcher - it is not clear. On the verge of disaster, everything went.

                    is this evidence? here is the first point. they tested a rocket or I bombed or nuclear submarines - and that, did not forget to grab a camera. And here .. some gossip
                    1. 0
                      April 6 2020 14: 49
                      Not at 3000, but at 300. I made a mistake, I wrote from memory.
                      I found this

                      The ekranoplanes "Eagle", in principle, and so flew like an airplane, but only at an altitude of 1-10 meters, according to the flight instructions, and V = up to 385 km / h, maximum. Kazan engines, after 5-8 repairs, pulled more.
                      And, they didn’t fly like s-t at high altitudes because:
                      -there was no high-altitude equipment (aneroid-membrane pointing devices of height, parachutes, escape systems ...). The device of the speed indicator was Radio Altimeter-up to 10 meters. RV-10.
                      -Also, due to its design, i.e., due to the aerodynamic layout of the wing, mainly intended for the movement of an ekranoplan, near a water or other surface.


                      и

                      Literally a few people know about this, but in the year, about 1983-85, we, in secrecy and secrecy, at our own peril and risk, without any agreement, and permission, several times, on the sly, raised "ORLENOK" S-21, purely visually and tentatively, approximately to a height of 300-500 meters, (but, before each such flight, K.K., Yu.G., separately and personally, one on one, always asked the consent of each member crew on such a dangerous flight, everyone had the right to refuse such a flight, but no one refused), the weather and visibility were excellent, they flew like this for 20-30 minutes. According to KK, he is a commander in / h (Yu.G. is a very competent and experienced pilot), the ekranoplan, at such a height, poorly obey the rudders, especially the aileron-flaps and is completely unstable in the GP, it is constantly somewhere pulls, there is a constant threat of falling onto the side or into a tailspin. The steering wheel must be held tight, constantly struggling, and these deviations and indignations must be parried by the rudders.
                      1. 0
                        April 6 2020 15: 25
                        tales are fishing. cameras were already there. and air defense too
        2. +3
          April 5 2020 11: 02
          At risk for the life of the crews after a personal conversation with each of the pilots, the general once once. He could not manage at high altitude.
      2. +4
        April 5 2020 11: 00
        What are they needed for?
        1. -2
          April 5 2020 11: 17
          For example, for landing.
          Or in order to "jump" to use intelligence
          Well and so on
          1. +4
            April 5 2020 12: 16
            Planes for all this is better
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 13: 47
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Planes for all this is better

              Seaplanes.
              And that is not a fact, which is better.
              For S-90 settlement:

              1. +2
                April 5 2020 13: 55
                Strange numbers, it seems like this C-90 was planned to sacrifice strength and escape from the chassis.

                And that looks unrealistic.
                There is a really flying eaglet, compare it with analogues by airplanes or helicopters. For example, with the Mi-26, it also carries 20 tons.
        2. +1
          April 5 2020 12: 05
          Clean ekranoplanes are not needed, but large seaplanes - ekranoplanes are needed as a vehicle, a system of rescue on the oceans, fire extinguishing of extensive fires and possibly as an air launch system.
      3. 0
        April 5 2020 21: 51
        On the fence ... it is written, and there is firewood.
        In fact, there are no arguments for ekranoplan
    2. +4
      April 5 2020 09: 19
      Quote: tracer
      Thanks to the author

      I support ekranoplans as a concept for research, yes, for practical use it is a complete dead end.
      1. +3
        April 5 2020 11: 18
        They have already been investigated in full, in my opinion, it’s already good to investigate.
  3. +6
    April 5 2020 06: 09
    Alexander Timokhin as "the enemy of technical progress" ...
    However, the role of ekranoplanes in the Armed Forces has not really been determined, and it will not be determined if they are not built, the last word has not yet been said.
    1. +7
      April 5 2020 07: 13
      And who should say that word? Technical calculations plus appropriateness, cost and safety. This is the last word. THE LAST DOES NOT HAPPEN. And I think that those who make decisions have a more complete picture.
      1. -12
        April 5 2020 07: 54
        A complete picture of what? Six months ago, Mr. Sobyanin advocated the reduction of hospitals and medical staff.
        1. +10
          April 5 2020 08: 08
          Which Sobyanin? This article is about ekranoplans. About pensions still start.
          1. -19
            April 5 2020 08: 17
            I'll have to start about pensions. You have a cunning plan around the enemies of Russia, but you don’t know everything. Do not know so keep quiet!
            1. +7
              April 5 2020 09: 27
              Yes, you have all the enemies who disagree with you at least in something. you will forgive but this is paranoia in its purest form.
              1. -2
                April 5 2020 09: 40
                And who asked you, sir '"all is good"?
                If gspodin Trasser is not up to date, then why did he express his opinion. Moreover, somewhere on another planet there are people who have a more complete picture. I just gave an example, one that had a more complete picture in December, but as if pressed, I jumped into a jump.
                As for the enemies, a man who loves his homeland sees everything, both good and bad.
                In this case, I am for the development of science and who knows, maybe the future is for ekranoplans.
      2. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 28
        The RF Ministry of Defense should work on this issue. And so ... For interest, you can also debate. I saw him, my impressions are still +++++.
    2. +5
      April 5 2020 07: 43
      Quote: mark1
      Alexander Timokhin as "the enemy of technical progress" ...
      However, the role of ekranoplanes in the Armed Forces has not really been determined, and it will not be determined if they are not built, the last word has not yet been said.

      So after all, they built it already in due time, but they did not decide. And what is this new approach, first do something, and then think under what to adapt it ??
      1. -3
        April 5 2020 09: 01
        And why were phones and computers created? When the first phones appeared, they also did not know what to do with them. And who was thinking why the computer was a hard worker? And the appearance of the first cars was also incomprehensible. And the black square of Malevich? What did he draw there? It turned out to be a modern TV! And what is the use of a TV? Does he bring you money? What is he doing in your house then?
        1. +4
          April 5 2020 09: 13
          Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
          When the first phones appeared, they also did not know what to do with them.

          A matter of priority.
          If you do not have houses, then why do you need phones?

          The USSR had quite powerful naval aviation. And he could allocate a fraction of funds for experiments with ekranoplans.
          1. +2
            April 5 2020 09: 46
            There are priorities, of course. But here they raised the question of economic efficiency. Or a penny to inflict ruble damage, or inflict a penny destruction in rubles. We love to talk about economic efficiency! For example, budget money must be saved !? Of course you must! Therefore, we pay the population at a minimum! It is logical in terms of economy? It is logical! Then it’s logical from the point of view of economy to officials to pay as well as the population, and to refuse to buy luxury cars! Is it logical? Or not? Why do not we want to save here? Some kind of not logical logic turns out! And so of course you can talk about efficiency! About the benefit! About saving! Are we living logically or economically? Well, if you think about it !? Or nobody thought about this issue? The author, of course, is well done for raising this question. But then let us expand the topic of this question! What is the effectiveness of estates in several hectares? What is the use of them? Why in Moscow every year to change the asphalt if in the outback of the road like during the war? Or is it not a matter of efficiency? And so of course you can speculate about the effectiveness! For example, why treat pensioners if they die soon anyway? Why pay pensions at all if citizens are not useful? Well, if we touched on the topic of efficiency, then let's discuss all issues of efficiency? Here in the world of capital they love to tryndet about economic efficiency. Only when the topic of efficiency concerns selfish interests does the topic of efficiency recede into the background! Why? And this is my skin and I will not stand for the price !? If the article touched on the topic of economic efficiency, so let's discuss all topics of economic efficiency, and not just ekranoplanes!
            1. +7
              April 5 2020 10: 14
              What is the effectiveness of estates in several hectares? What is the use of them? Why in Moscow every year to change the asphalt if in the outback of the road like during the war?

              Troublemaker! You criticize the interests of the ruling class!
            2. +2
              April 5 2020 10: 25
              Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
              But here they raised the question of economic efficiency.

              In terms of economic efficiency, a plane is better. For it is more universal.
        2. -1
          April 5 2020 12: 54
          Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
          And why were phones and computers created? When the first phones appeared, they also did not know what to do with them. And who was thinking why the computer was a hard worker? And the appearance of the first cars was also incomprehensible. And the black square of Malevich? What did he draw there? It turned out to be a modern TV! And what is the use of a TV? Does he bring you money? What is he doing in your house then?

          Well, maybe you personally didn’t know what to do with the phones, but the inventor knew, so it’s not necessary to speak for everyone. And the computer appeared just when there was a need for processing large amounts of data. It turns out you know absolutely nothing. And about the black square ... you would have to my psychiatrist my friend ...
      2. +4
        April 5 2020 10: 52
        Quote: 1976AG
        So after all, they built it already in due time, but they did not decide.

        And what was built? Airplane glider equipped with waste (deserted) engines. Then it was important to determine the properties of this technique. Then there should have been a second stage with a new concept of the EKIP airframe. But the collapse of the USSR did not allow ...

        Вики: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D0%9A%D0%98%D0%9F


        1. +2
          April 5 2020 12: 08
          EKIP is just a project - an attempt to wishful thinking, since all its economic indicators and efficiency were based on a non-existent engine.
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 12: 54
            Quote: Vadim237
            since all its economic indicators and profitability were based on a non-existent engine.

            Which engine did not exist?
            In such projects, more than one engine is installed, and they could be selected from the existing ones, as they did in the "Caspian Monster".
            And we are talking about modern development. That there are no engines even abroad?
            1. +1
              April 5 2020 20: 34
              Yes, take any engine - and thereby lower all the parameters of the aircraft in terms of efficiency and flight range to a minimum. They had new fuel there, or somehow differently only the engine for it was not only experimental for smaller models.
              1. 0
                April 6 2020 09: 50
                Quote: Vadim237
                take any engine - and thereby lower all the parameters of the aircraft in terms of efficiency and flight range to a minimum.

                You, as an antediluvian "mechanic" say, like: submarines cannot be made because of the shortcomings of the steam engine.
                The whole point of ECIP in the concept of a glider. The engine can be any: even nuclear or solar-electric or ....
          2. 0
            April 5 2020 21: 53
            There were enough fairy tales on the aerodynamics
      3. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 29
        So at one time and fell apart!
      4. +2
        April 5 2020 11: 29
        You will laugh.
        Question: on which Bula engine for the first time reached a speed of 100 Km / h?

        answer: electric car at the turn of the 19-20 centuries.

        Now the question is: how many years have passed before the mass use of electric vehicles and engines with internal combustion engines?
        About 100 years old. When new technologies and materials appeared.
    3. +5
      April 5 2020 09: 22
      Quote: mark1
      However, the role of ekranoplanes in the armed forces is really not yet defined, and will not be determined if they are not built

      Indeed, let's build, and make sure that there is no need to build, but the money is spent.
      1. +1
        April 5 2020 11: 31
        In order to build, you need a customer who determines the TTZ. While this is not possible, you can arbitrarily break the spears.
    4. +10
      April 5 2020 10: 17
      Quote: mark1
      However, the role of ekranoplanes in the armed forces is really not yet defined, and will not be determined if they are not built

      You put the cart in front of the horse. First, the role (functional) is determined, from them - TTX, then the development stage, and only then, if the achievement of the necessary TTX is confirmed, then the achievement of the required functional is achieved - construction
      You suggest first building, and then wondering where to stick it. This is a fundamentally wrong approach.
      1. 0
        April 9 2020 20: 35
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You put the cart before the horse.

        Not at all. The ekranoplanes are built not only in the interests of the Moscow Region (for the most part), and operation by various customers allows both to gain operational experience in various conditions, and to formulate requirements for the future. Hence it turns out that the last word has not yet been said.
        1. 0
          April 10 2020 08: 00
          Ekranoplanes in the interests of Moscow Region are not being built now. And if someone civilians have a desire and money for financing - why not? Just not at the expense of the state, please
    5. +2
      April 5 2020 11: 02
      Yes, everything is obvious really
      1. Aag
        +2
        April 5 2020 20: 24
        Thank you for the article. Do not come up with (or yet) tasks for ES.
        Sorry, but for: "Yes, everything is really obvious" put a minus.
  4. +6
    April 5 2020 06: 12
    Almost everything agrees with the author. Unfortunately, all those small pluses can not be compared with the minuses. I remember somehow arguing here about the need for ekranoplanes and again cited the Be-200 as an argument and its anti-submarine modification. And by the way, the opponent used precisely for the idea of ​​fixing the anti-ship tasking of the ekranoplan. But to my question how the ekranoplane will get to the order where the aircraft carrier is covered by its wing, missile defense missile defense, nuclear submarines, and other destroyers, the opponent merged with the words -I say they are all-crawler and argue with me is pointless))) and the article is plus!
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 06: 25
      will pick up the order
      I understand a little mistake .. but funny .. fix it soon.
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 06: 27
        Yes thank you. T9 wink
    2. +6
      April 5 2020 07: 31
      Quote: Magic Archer
      But to my question how the ekranoplan will get to the order where the aircraft carrier is covered by its wing, missile defense missiles, nuclear submarines, and other destroyers

      How to tell you? Quickly, inconspicuously for radars, at a distance of the launch range of the anti-ship missiles, releasing which are also discreet and retire.
      Most interesting, they do not need several hundred. This is an individual weapon that has the right to exist, such as: combat swimmers ... or some other AS-12 ...
      But in general, the need for certain types of weapons is checked and determined as a result of their practical application. Have you heard about the S-400 shot down by an “enemy”? But!!! No one questions their relevance and the need for production. Why is there such a bias towards ekranoplans?
      hi
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 07: 51
        It seems that the author has something personal.
        1. +2
          April 5 2020 12: 16
          It seems that you are not in yourself. In addition to negativity and squabbles, your comments do not differ, do not carry at least some thematic load. You have all the enemies, plans are cunning, and always personal with someone.
      2. +7
        April 5 2020 07: 59
        He will not be able to sneak up to the launch distance of the anti-ship missile system. The radar of ships "sees" much further than the radar of an ekranoplan. Excuse my profane opinion, but the ship's radar is located much higher and its power is greater. Considering that there is air patrol in the combat warrant, the ekranoplan will be noticed before it detects the warrant itself. Taking into account the absence of an air defense system on the ekranoplan, one plane will be enough for it. There would be more chances for the mosquito fleet, when a large number of small fast boats simultaneously launch anti-ship missiles.
        1. -1
          April 5 2020 11: 09
          Quote: Parabelum
          He will not be able to quietly get to the launch distance of the RCC.

          The starting range is not constant. Caliber has already shown this.
          Quote: Parabelum
          The radar of ships "sees" much further than the radar of an ekranoplan.

          Show a ship radar with a range of at least 500 km.
          A WIG can go along coordinates without a radar.
          Quote: Parabelum
          Considering that there is air patrolling in the warrant, the ekranoplane will be noticed before he finds the warrant.

          The presence of combat ekranoplanes will force the enemy to patrol vast territories, with very short time intervals, which is not absolutely effective and requires huge costs (cost-effectiveness of the war).
          Quote: Parabelum
          Given the absence on the winged air defense system, one aircraft is enough for him.

          Who told you such nonsense about air defense systems?
          Quote: Parabelum
          There would be a better chance for the mosquito fleet when a large number of small fast boats simultaneously launch anti-ship missiles.

          These slow-moving bast shoes will be easily detected by patrolling.
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 13: 47
            Quote: Genry
            Show a ship radar with a range of at least 500 km.

            I understand that we are talking about a strike at the KMG, and not at the AUG, but still there is a big problem in target designation, both from air and from space.
            Quote: Genry
            The starting range is not constant. Caliber has already shown this.

            The caliber in the RCC has a completely different range than the fixed targets on the ground.
            Quote: Genry
            These slow-moving bast shoes will be easily detected by patrolling.

            project 1239 "Sivuch" "Samum" / "Bora" low-speed?
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 15: 32
              The author of the article compared the ekranoplanes with airplanes, but there is no PC with ships and KVP, and here the ekranoplan just spreads the KVP and KPK in speed, and is superior / not inferior in terms of efficiency.
          2. 0
            April 5 2020 15: 12
            Do we have an ekranoplan with Caliber? You somehow forget about the AWACS aircraft included in the wing. The aircraft provides maximum target detection at a distance of about 540 km. Where are you going to sink aircraft carriers? By the shore? Or in the open ocean? And how far can he go into the ocean? According to reports from 2012, the range of caliber missiles at sea targets is 375 km
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 15: 56
              Quote: Parabelum
              According to reports from 2012, the range of caliber missiles at sea targets is 375 km

              generally up to 500 km, but you need to specify at least the approximate location of AUG / KUG, because the head works up to 60km ...
              Quote: Parabelum
              The aircraft provides maximum target detection at a distance of about 540 km.

              350 - 400 E-2 Hawkeye, but E-3 Sentry up to 650 km. And "hokai" do not fly alone, there are 4 of them on AB, so they work in pairs - a total of 540 km.
      3. +7
        April 5 2020 08: 09
        "Have you heard about the downed" enemy "aircraft using the S-400? But !!! Nobody questions their relevance and the need for production. Why is there such a bias towards ekranoplanes?"


        But we heard about how the S-75 and S-125 planes were shot down, and they relate to air defense systems, just like the S-400. So a very incorrect argument.
      4. +4
        April 5 2020 10: 18
        Quote: ROSS 42
        How to tell you? Quickly, inconspicuously for radars, at a distance of the launch range of the anti-ship missiles, releasing which are also discreet and retire.

        Here he loses significantly to aviation, which can do exactly the same.
      5. +2
        April 5 2020 11: 04
        How to tell you? Quickly, inconspicuously for radars, at a distance of the launch range of the anti-ship missiles, releasing which are also discreet and retire.


        Is that interesting? Sign up, don't be lazy laughing

        But in general, the need for certain types of weapons is checked and determined as a result of their practical application. Have you heard about the S-400 shot down by an “enemy”?


        No, but I’ve heard a lot about airplanes shot down by air defense systems
      6. +2
        April 5 2020 12: 02
        Quote: ROSS 42
        invisible to radars at the distance of the launch range of the RCC,
        He has a radio horizon like a ship (flies very low), it will not be possible to let it go unnoticed, except with an external control center, but if it is available, you do not need to be picked up: let yourself be from 300-500 km.
    3. -3
      April 5 2020 09: 08
      And why the ekranoplan should be used only for military purposes? Are high-speed trains used by the military today? What about business class cars? What efficiency is there? You can’t bring your body to the window? Why Kruiser or Lombargini? Take building in megacities. Earth is expensive. It is more profitable to build in the country. So cheaper. Why is everyone turning to the center? Does your computer or cell phone bring you money? Why are you buying this? Take hypersound. What efficiency is there? The cost of manufacturing a rocket, the cost of delivery. What damage does hypersonic make? While they talked about achieving speed but did not talk about the power of destruction from him. What economic damage will hypersonic cause? The cost of hyper and brought destruction?
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 09: 29
        Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
        And why the ekranoplan should be used only for military purposes?

        Here you correctly give an analogy with a home computer and a mobile phone. It would be even more correct to talk about a gaming computer and an expensive smartphone. They are designed to receive emotions. This is the only sphere of application of ekranoplan - trips of people (tourists) to get emotions.
      2. -8
        April 5 2020 09: 50
        Well, what are the minusers? There is nothing to say? Yes, we all understand !? We don’t know how to speak !? Ha-ha-ha !!! Language means not trained, we have no logic !? Oh well! laughing wassat
        1. +5
          April 5 2020 10: 25
          Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
          Ha-ha-ha !!!

          Sorry, but you have no argument against which you can object. Therefore, people put a minus, not bothering themselves in search of grains of meaning in your stream of consciousness.
          If you believe that the ekranoplane may be of interest to a civilian, you should have justified this - then there would be a subject of discussion. As for your questions ...
          Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
          What about business class cars? What efficiency is there? You can’t bring your body to the window? Why Kruiser or Lombargini?

          Can. But the business class is more comfortable, it is much more interesting to drive, and most importantly, an expensive car emphasizes the status of its owner. And what does the ekranoplan have to do with all this?
        2. +4
          April 5 2020 10: 59
          Well, I set a minus, because you yourself, for example, will not fly a passenger on this ekranoplane, you will be worried, because the accident rate is terrible, three out of four ekranoplanes have crashed.
          And the author wrote correctly, there is no benefit from them.
        3. 0
          April 5 2020 13: 00
          Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
          Well, what are the minusers? There is nothing to say? Yes, we all understand !? We don’t know how to speak !? Ha-ha-ha !!! Language means not trained, we have no logic !? Oh well! laughing wassat

          Do not disgrace your argument - it is at the kindergarten level, but why argue with children? First, study the history of the appearance of the TV, phone, the creation of a steam locomotive .. and only then speak. You simply showed your complete illiteracy in these matters.
          1. +4
            April 5 2020 16: 23
            Quote: 1976AG
            three of the four ekranoplanes crashed.

            Quote: 1976AG
            First, study the history of the appearance of the TV, phone, the creation of a steam locomotive .. and only then speak.

            Not a single TV went off the rails And not a single phone collided with a steam locomotive on takeoff sad
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 16: 53
              "Quote: 1976AG
              three of the four ekranoplanes crashed. "
              This is not my quote!
              "
              Not a single TV went off the rails And not a single telephone collided with a steam locomotive on takeoff sad "
              So do not leave your house, otherwise you will suddenly fall under a car ..
              1. +1
                April 5 2020 16: 56
                Quote: 1976AG
                This is not my quote!

                Just walked up request
                Quote: 1976AG
                So do not leave your house, otherwise you will suddenly fall under a car ..

                I'm a little about recourse Do not cost such efforts
                1. 0
                  April 5 2020 16: 58
                  "I'm a little bit wrong about that recourse Not worth such an effort"
                  Did I say that they are needed?
                  1. +1
                    April 5 2020 17: 00
                    Quote: 1976AG
                    Did I say that they are needed?

                    Have you ever tried to take quotes from two or more posts and put together in one of your own ?!
                    1. -1
                      April 5 2020 17: 02
                      Next time something
            2. 0
              April 5 2020 16: 55
              What has it to do with it? I advised to study the history of the creation of these things. The inventors understood what these things could be beneficial, and not just working at random. And you about to break ...
              1. Aag
                +1
                April 5 2020 20: 38
                In your opinion Alekseev at random created EP?
                With the telephone line (cell phone), they also did not immediately "decide". And there are a lot of similar examples.
                1. +1
                  April 5 2020 21: 55
                  To a large extent, yes. Worked at the Central Design Bureau of the SEC about this in the colors
            3. 0
              April 5 2020 16: 57
              "Quote: 1976AG
              three of the four ekranoplanes crashed. "
              This is not my quote!
      3. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 05
        And why the ekranoplan should be used only for military purposes?


        see the truck example from the text of the article.
      4. -1
        April 5 2020 14: 18
        Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
        What damage does hypersonic make? While they talked about achieving speed but did not talk about the power of destruction from him. What economic damage will hypersonic cause? The cost of hyper and brought destruction?

        hypersound reduces the possibility of BB interception on the final trajectory ... And it could be an 8-10 Mt BB - and what will remain of the same Washington after an explosion of such power?
      5. 0
        April 5 2020 18: 31
        because he cannot jump over the ice of the arctic ocean, when he is taught to send ice and hummocks, one can begin to talk about demand.
      6. +2
        April 5 2020 18: 53
        Quote: SOVIET UNION 2
        Does your computer or cell phone bring you money? Why are you buying this?

        Excuse me, did you write this from the iron?
  5. -1
    April 5 2020 06: 26
    Interesting car. Given our territory is a must. But given our budget, its time has not come. Hope that comes.
    1. +5
      April 5 2020 07: 13
      Given the territory, just aviation is needed.
      WIG from the Pacific Ocean to the North can not be transferred if necessary
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 37
        And on every ocean ... ekranoplanes.
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 11: 39
          What will become at least 4 times more expensive - by the number of fleets
    2. -3
      April 5 2020 10: 23
      If you build, then ekranoplan with nuclear power plants.
      1. +4
        April 5 2020 11: 06
        With the possibility of landing on the railway yet. And in some places we simply have nowhere else to sit - just rails in the district, yes pits, and ravines.
    3. +3
      April 5 2020 11: 16
      The Su-30SM regiment is much more useful.
      With the range of modern anti-ship missiles and their speed characteristics, it is not at all necessary to sneak up on the enemy's warrant. Moreover, where will he hide from the Hawkeye or the over-the-horizon radar? The radio horizon will not help here.
      Extremely outdated concept.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. +3
    April 5 2020 06: 46
    Absolutely unnecessary papelats. Great article.
  8. +3
    April 5 2020 07: 14
    Why ekranoplans are not needed by either the fleet or the aircraft as a whole

    Really ... Why aren't they needed? And does the fleet need aircraft carriers, TAVKRs, destroyers, submarines with VNEU and other auxiliary, but very popular BDKs and ships for other purposes?
    Let's hope that the ekranoplanostroitel will continue to have some failures on the way to the development of budget money. They have much to spend without ekranoplans.

    For instance? For untimely modernization, the elimination of fires and floods, for the accelerated reconstruction of ships that have left the stocks? For what??? To restore the repair base of submarines in the Crimea? Or just “grist” them into some kind of constitutional reform? Shake the world by transferring funds to any Olympiads, World Cups and Universiades? In the end, you can and again shift the tile in Moscow, and let these "rogue" from Saratov and Uryupinsk drown in pits and potholes ...
    Oh! We completely forgot about the combat icebreakers. It is from the North Pole (and not from the West or the southeast) that is gaining strength and the threat from our "potential partners" is puffing up.
    There is a military doctrine of the Russian Federation, but I can’t find anywhere the necessary need of the state of three oceans and 13 seas for the quantitative and qualitative composition of the Navy ... It’s good that right now the absurdity of the presence of ekranoplanes in the fleet ... I want to read about the futility of convertiplanes, self-propelled guns, tanks with armored capsules for the crew, armored personnel carriers for the Marine Corps, and other drones and aircraft made using stealth technologies. It will be very interesting to read a review of the power plants for the ships of the Russian fleet (independent of imports) and their differences in motor resources with foreign analogues. And also, find out on which knees the aircraft engines (this is such a complex structure) are assembled in the second stage and whether country experts (school for their training and education), able to continue this difficult task?
    It’s hard in a country with “effective managers”. In the sense that there are managers, but the sense of them is “0”. And still the country is in dire need of means of protection against coronavirus, in hospitals, competent specialists and methods for diagnosing this and many other diseases, as well as organs of the real fight against corruption and squandering budget funds ...
    1. +4
      April 5 2020 07: 50
      What tanks didn’t please you with armored capsules? Apparently you want our tank crews to ride on a barrel of gunpowder and almost a ton of fuel? Have you ever seen at least the t-72 powder charge burning? I think not, hence your conclusions, an economical economist. Apparently you forget the proverb that if you do not want to feed your army, you will feed someone else's. Whether it is necessary or not, the above can only be shown by war. And not some calculations and assumptions do not predict the real result. Almost all weapons went through a wave of skepticism and mistrust, and only after being put into practice proved their relevance and effectiveness. No one is able to predict what the modern conflict will look like, not the sluggish one that we have been in Syria longer than the Second World War, but the full-scale one that NATO faces.
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 02
        Apparently you forget the proverb that if you do not want to feed your army, you will feed someone else's.

        That is a proverb, but how true is it? Does the Finns have a big army? And whose army are they feeding then?
        1. +5
          April 5 2020 12: 46
          Quote: Fan-Fan
          And whose army are they feeding then?

          Most of its history is Swedish. Russian was not fed only because of the rare idiocy of the tsars. Well, in 1939 they could well have fed the Red Army.
          And now, Finland is simply not needed by anyone.
        2. Aag
          0
          April 5 2020 20: 53
          Man simply did not appreciate the irony.
      2. -1
        April 5 2020 14: 25
        Quote: werke326
        No one is able to predict what the modern conflict will look like, not the sluggish one that we have been in Syria for longer than the Second World War,

        Syria is practically the same Chechnya CTO, only on the territory of another state, in this case, the ATS, only with the participation of interventionists - Turkey, the United States with mongrel and Israel.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 16: 48
      Rossa 42 for the presidency. Good gutar.
    3. Aag
      0
      April 5 2020 21: 00
      Dear ROSS, you are making a system error: the sense from "effective managers" is far from zero, but with a colossal minus! Or does it seem to me alone?
  9. +4
    April 5 2020 07: 30
    There is no tax in the world.
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 09: 31
      Quote: shubin
      There is no tax in the world.

      It was superfluous, they encroached on the holy.
  10. -6
    April 5 2020 07: 40
    The author does not understand or painstakingly hides that the record-carrying capacity of the ekranoplanrv is based on the effect of the boundary layer. If the average is rough, then if the air is three times denser, then with the same energy consumption, you can take three loads more cargo.
    The Ekpanoplan is indispensable for the fast transfer of cargo, landing, etc.
    1. +4
      April 5 2020 08: 18
      Eaglet and An-12 refute these arguments.
    2. +2
      April 5 2020 11: 09
      In fact, the author is simply too lazy to blow up the archives and pull out the real figures for the CM - there are no 200 tons, in fact. Since the "Orlyonok", which with a takeoff weight of 120 tons, raises 20.
      And the An-12 aircraft with a take-off mass of 56 tons (I don’t remember exactly) lifts the same 20 tons.
      IL-18 in the cargo version at 64 raises 15, although it was generally made as a passenger.
    3. +2
      April 5 2020 15: 36
      Quote: W a d and m
      If the average is rough, then if the air is three times denser, then with the same energy consumption, you can take three loads more cargo.

      That's exactly what with the same. But they will not be the same, because the ekranoplan needs a lot of power to go on the screen, and as a result, a significant part of the engines does not work on a cruise flight, turning into a dead load. And the aerodynamics of the ekranoplan are a priori worse, and the mass of the hull is larger, because it is amphibian.
      All this is quite obvious - it is enough to compare the empty / maximum masses of the same CM and Mriy, for example.
    4. +1
      April 5 2020 16: 03
      Before you publicly flog nonsense, google what the screen is and what the boundary layer is.
  11. -8
    April 5 2020 07: 46
    Unfortunately, the minuses for the articles were not returned. The author is one of those who have learned the truth and with all his might fights against "pseudoscience"
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 09: 35
      I've been wanting to ask you for a long time, but who are you by education and specialization? VKS or Navy officer? maybe the designer? Well, to understand that your statements have some kind of professional training and experience?
      1. -4
        April 5 2020 09: 54
        I am an engineer of ejection troops and a master of archery.
        Aircraft carriers were very useful for hitting Pearl Harbor. Now why are they? Could it really be time to develop cosmic forces? Or computer, but here, unfortunately, the advantage is on the side of the Yusovites. AT
        Do you seriously think that in our time it is enough to be a narrow specialist?
        For example, the ministers of defense in Russia were a furniture maker and a builder. But you will not ask them about specialization.
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 10: 16
          the question was more than specific. as I always said, the whole country understands everything. it's not that you have narrow-profile knowledge or not. the fact is that when someone defends a point of view, one wants to understand on what grounds he draws his conclusions.
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 10: 44
            Not narrow profile. But let's just say relatively recently I had to optionally read including about ekranoplanes. I will not say anything, but I do not agree with the author's categorical assessment. Perhaps the future of ekranoplans.
            As an example, compare the planes of World War 1 and World War II. Or 30 years ago, who could predict the future of smartphones? We were joking then, it would be nice to connect the phone to the wires and walk along the streets.
          2. +2
            April 5 2020 11: 11
            Quote: carstorm 11
            ... the question was more than specific. as I always said, the whole country understands everything.

            Let me intervene.
            Suppose that the author of the article was related to the design of ekranoplanes?
            Perhaps you are one of the pilots of these aircraft?
            1. -2
              April 5 2020 18: 34
              Leonid! Are you serious? The author was never a naval officer, and indeed an officer in general. The material is thrown at him - in the style of the Soros training manual, he processes it for a small fraction. we need eranoplans, he and his company of violet clackers do not need him, the main thing in his articles is to bite the authorities and the leadership of the Defense Ministry and Navy. Drive a wave of publicity, a protest ... well, all according to the manuals of old Soros. Compare with Failure and others.
              1. 0
                April 5 2020 20: 46
                Leonidlo, unlike your hysterical tearing of trampoline and bullshit, Timokhin drowns for a modern and effective Navy of the Russian Federation, the creation of which is impossible without opening and solving existing acute problems
                1. -1
                  April 6 2020 00: 43
                  Maximushka! What is it that I tore you apart that hurt and bitter you so much? Timokhin drowns ... Mr. Timokhin cannot drown "for", all his articles have one subtext - "against". If something is done by people and really done, then only in spite of the hysterical cries of you, Timokhin and others like that. It is you who are torn apart by unsatisfied hatred for all those who have stepped higher and wider than you - dilettantes and talkers of the Soros school, pseudo-oppressors and pseudo well-wishers.
                  1. 0
                    April 6 2020 04: 56
                    Leonidlo, a blazing fillet here is YOUR acc. streams. Only here are the arguments and facts from YOU zero, only a customized screech about Soros. Despite the fact that you were just serving the weed
                    1. 0
                      April 6 2020 19: 49
                      Maximushka! I miss your brkd as always, but you studied at school disgustingly, probably a C grade? "Sdes" is not written with "s" - exceptions "here, health, health, zgi" - through "z". Take care of the loins. I wish you health and good luck in graphomania!
                      1. -1
                        April 7 2020 06: 01
                        Leonidlo, so at least some facts and arguments from YOU will be? But it’s useless to ask a nonsense.
                      2. 0
                        April 7 2020 20: 41
                        Maksimushka! Are you literate trained? Can you read? Or is the Chukchi not a reader - a Chukchi writer? Take the alphabet and go for knowledge!
                      3. -1
                        April 7 2020 21: 37
                        He forgot more in a week than you knew in a lifetime, Leonid L.
                        By the way, I’m watching, spring, you were quite agitated laughing
                      4. 0
                        April 8 2020 05: 02
                        The alphabet in his hands! And good luck in your personal life!
                      5. -1
                        April 8 2020 15: 09
                        And me, LeonidL did not get more luck in my personal life than I already have. More good luck in my personal life than I already grabbed off does not happen in principle.
                        But I wish you good health, do not be sick, be treated on time.
                        laughing
                      6. -1
                        April 8 2020 17: 33
                        Glad, sincerely glad for you, Mr. Timokhin, but I'm afraid you, as always, wishful thinking. In any case, on this article I’m finishing communication with you. I look forward to the next opus. And if there is something rotten - don’t blame me, I’ll trample on you with all my heart. Alas, you have to do the work of your most venerable parents for them, but they did not teach you the rules of decency, honor and other things. For sim - good luck, health, masks, on time received fees from the Misters and Sirs ...
                      7. The comment was deleted.
        2. +3
          April 5 2020 11: 08
          For example, the ministers of defense in Russia were a furniture maker and a builder.

          Why were they, the builder and now the main military-political "brain". And the furniture maker "successfully" manages the helicopter industry.
    2. +2
      April 5 2020 11: 10
      So disprove the author’s claims, here in the comments. What is the problem?
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 22
        I do not argue with your point of view, suddenly you are right and the ekranoplanes are not needed. I argue with your categoricalness, suddenly you are wrong and the future is for ekranoplans.
        Nevertheless, when a person doubts, he is more convincing.
        1. +1
          April 5 2020 12: 43
          How to understand "suddenly"? These are specific, tangible categories. Five, for example, is more than four and no "suddenly" will ever change this.
          1. Aag
            0
            April 5 2020 21: 17
            What if the fours and fives have minuses?
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 21: 19
              I didn't write "minus four" and "minus five".
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      2. 0
        April 7 2020 21: 51
        The specific consumption of 0.8 kg / kgf * h is a very large figure, even taking into account the long-term operation on the take-off mode (This is an indicator of a 1,2-generation jet engine, as an example, 3 AM-1950 has 0,9 kg / kgf * h, and the comparison with the D-18t of almost the 4th generation is not correct).

        The arguments are chosen so that seaplanes are useless, but this does not prevent them from being used in transport, combat, and special tasks.
        And when comparing specifically ekranoplanes with seaplanes, everything will not be so obvious (speed, engines, infrastructure and technologies used are the same or close).
  12. +4
    April 5 2020 07: 52
    Finally, a normal article about this "Miracle", which is neither a candle to God, nor a damn poker! How many times have I written about this and few people listen. They roll their eyes and squeeze their brains into a ball. And here is the real state of affairs! Thank you for the competent presentation of the topic !!!
  13. +3
    April 5 2020 08: 24
    An ekranoplan, if anyone needs it, a seaplane can very well fly at an altitude of 2-4 meters above the water. And without these ugly launchers on the ridge.
    1. -1
      April 5 2020 10: 09
      And the carrying capacity?
      Will the tank take your seaplane away?
      And how many tanks?
      1. +4
        April 5 2020 11: 11
        And how will he unload this tank? How will he get ashore? And about accident rate in 75% read?
      2. +2
        April 5 2020 11: 11
        Will the ekranoplan take the tank away? The eaglet was heavier than the IL-76 but somehow dragged 20 tons, and the IL-76 carries up to 50.
    2. -2
      April 5 2020 10: 37
      And for example, to catch poachers.
      Not those in the Astrakhan floodplains (although they too), but those who have crabbed and rushed to their homes in northern Japan or South Korea?
      Be-200 will send them to detain or SU-57?
      Yes, the mere appearance of a flotilla (or squadron?) Of ekranoplanes in the eastern seas will diminish those who want to profit from a freebie in our economic zone.
      And the "classic" Coast Guard - border troops - for such things is clearly not enough.
      They already have tasks before and more.
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 11: 14
        And for example, to catch poachers.
        Not those in the Astrakhan floodplains (although they too), but those who have crabbed and rushed to their homes in northern Japan or South Korea?
        Be-200 will send them to detain or SU-57?
        Yes, the mere appearance of a flotilla (or squadron?) Of ekranoplanes in the eastern seas will diminish those who want to profit from a freebie in our economic zone.


        It is strange how the An-32P is still coping there. Elementary logic fails you - to find a ship in the sea, you need to rise HIGH to get a large horizon. For this you need a plane.

        At the second stage, the plane of this intruder catches up even faster. Well, that's all, further request to stall, and if not, then first 23 mm, and then rockets. This has happened more than once, the people in Asia are well aware of these methods. And the vessels of poachers used to be drowned in this way.

        Why is there also an ekranoplan?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          April 5 2020 14: 44
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It is strange how the An-32P is still coping there.

          it's a fire plane ...
          An-32P - aircraft to extinguish fires. It features 2 outdoor pouring units with a total volume of 8000 liters.
          1. -1
            April 5 2020 14: 45
            Wrong, An-72P, border plane
            1. 0
              April 5 2020 14: 50
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Wrong, An-72P, border plane

              And then I rummaged through the entire Internet, what kind of patrol aircraft based on the An-26 is ...
              1. +1
                April 5 2020 19: 02
                I malfunctioned. I repent.
        3. 0
          April 5 2020 18: 49
          and en will delay the poachers sitting on the water ...
          and are you ready to shoot poachers to kill? they say poachers need to be detained and tried, imprisoned. but apparently it’s easier for you right away from the 23 mm. can immediately send a ganship by type as130? and all to dust? But what if there is nothing on board?
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 21: 20
            The practice of working in the Far East Military District on the Far East is exactly that now.
      2. +1
        April 5 2020 15: 51
        Yyyy
        BOHRovtsy at the mention of ekranoplanes for about 5 years they immediately go to the mat
  14. +7
    April 5 2020 08: 51
    Normal calculation of the normal enemy ekranoplanes ...
    Nevertheless, their priority (ekranoplanes, not opponents)))) and on issues of defense, search and rescue.
    The author deliberately "threw Lun into battle" one on one with the enemy.
    Yes, everything is bad here.
    However, right there he paints high-altitude SU - scout-flashlights and low-flying fighters.
    And what does the hybrid kneading of forces and means prevent?
    On the Black Sea and Baltic theater of operations, the prompt delivery of forces from the DRG to the tactical landing is the ekranoplan's task.
    The rapid advancement and stinging of flotilla and coastal infrastructure is also for them.
    At the same time, for Sushkam and MiGs, here and there she will find quite worthy application.
    Not so many of us.
    Search and salvation is also yes.
    Even with the Be-200 and even the A-42.
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 09: 17
      Quote: U-58
      And what does the hybrid kneading of forces and means prevent?

      That these funds are not free. And the choice from one ekranoplan and six Su-30s against twelve Su-30s is the same as from one ekranoplanes against six Su-30s.
      1. +3
        April 5 2020 09: 31
        Well, yes, defense issues of the Road.
        And indeed, questions of maintaining the army are always not economically beneficial from the word in any way.
        Until they sing "Get up, the country is huge .."
        1. +6
          April 5 2020 09: 36
          It's not about the high cost, but the choice from the affordable. Those. be funds 100 times more, anyway the choice of 100 ekranoplanes and 600 Su-30s versus 1200 Su-30s will be in favor of 1200 Su-30s.
          1. +1
            April 5 2020 10: 28
            Limited use of ekranoplanes with controversial effectiveness.
    2. +1
      April 5 2020 09: 35
      Quote: U-58
      And what does the hybrid kneading of forces and means prevent?

      The author did everything right, considered two extreme options: one on one and with support, everything else is already an offset between them. At the first, a complete defeat, at the second in terms of costs and opportunities, other carriers are both better and cheaper.
    3. +1
      April 5 2020 15: 52
      At whose expense is this banquet, sorry drank ,? YOUR?
    4. 0
      April 5 2020 16: 00
      Monsieur, Mi8AMT can hang and lift from water at 25 m in s.
      Name at least one flying tool that can at least half this
  15. 0
    April 5 2020 08: 58
    Looks spectacular, a miracle of technology .... let the experts decide where and how, why!
    Even on the "Meteora" by sea, it was cool !!! On an ekranoplan, over the sea !!!!! good
  16. -2
    April 5 2020 09: 19
    Why did I read this nonsense?
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 11: 13
      To get smarter a little bit.
  17. +1
    April 5 2020 10: 02
    Good article. And then from time to time lovers of ekranoplanes break through the slogan to build and build ...
  18. -1
    April 5 2020 10: 06
    The author compared sour with warm and thoughtfully concluded: "But warm is, after all, better!"
  19. -5
    April 5 2020 10: 33
    It seems that the author, as well as other opposed ekranoplanes fulfill the order! The order of those who want to slander state money allocated for super super aircraft carriers, the latest nuclear boats! And this, design, development, construction and testing! In 30-40 years, the first copy will be launched, and this is billions of dollars! By the time all these are released super-duper will become morally and technically obsolete! And they will share the money! And to build an ekranoplan of any modification can be built quickly and cheaply! Enough to raise the documentation!
    1. +5
      April 5 2020 11: 15
      No, it's just that the author knows about the order "for ekranoplanes" and is approximately aware of the economic realities, so he works ahead of the curve.
  20. +5
    April 5 2020 10: 41
    Put a plus. For ekranoplanes stupidly there are no tasks and the need for them. For hitting enemy ships in the BMZ, we have cheap mrk with 8 cr, which can be built a lot. For transportation - the application possibilities are too limited compared to aviation and the carrying capacity is lower than that of ships. For patrolling - patrol ships and planes. For plos, too, the ekranoplan does not give any advantages. request
    Supporters of ekranoplanes should first find the answer to the main question - "why"? If there are no goals, objectives or market for such machines, then what is the point of building them?
  21. +1
    April 5 2020 10: 41
    In my opinion, ekranoplans as weapons are too expensive. But to use them as rescuers, tankers, reconnaissance, warfare and civilian passenger transport would be very reasonable. It is a pity that it is not used.
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 11: 16
      Aircraft are better for reconnaissance both in passenger and transportation.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 09: 53
        Aircraft are better for reconnaissance both in passenger and transportation.

        And Baba Yaga is against it! wassat laughing We want a child prodigy! For less do not agree! angry
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 18: 24
      Quote: Doccor18
      But to use them as rescuers, tankers, reconnaissance, warfare and civilian passenger transport would be very reasonable. It is a pity that it is not used.

      With an accident rate of 75%, these would be great rescuers.
      1. +1
        April 6 2020 09: 56
        With an accident rate of 75%, these would be great rescuers.

        Yeah, in addition to the ship or ship in distress, they would have to save these rescuers laughing
  22. +1
    April 5 2020 10: 47
    An article from the category: expensive means we won't do it. Based on this principle, it was not necessary to build the MiG-31 - a very expensive machine. Energia-Buran - also in the bathhouse. What for? Armata - dear guano, fly to the moon? - what for? insanely expensive. To invent a fusion is generally a waste of money. Icebreakers? - into the furnace! It is possible and "yugami" to go. Floating nuclear power plant Lomonosov? Aaaaa .... a waste of people's money. And yes: the Su-30 is also an expensive pleasure. You shouldn't have built it! We would fly on the MiG-21 and the norms. And better on the MIG-15. In general, behind a bunch of words and numbers, there is only one thought: no need to go forward, no need to develop. If what - we'll buy everything in the west)))))
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 11: 16
      WIG is not just expensive. They are also useless. That’s the catch.
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 15: 49
        Skegovye MRK, here's a useless thing.
    2. +1
      April 5 2020 15: 23
      Are you talking about the criterion of efficiency - did you hear something?
    3. +4
      April 5 2020 15: 39
      Quote: mcqway
      An article from the category: expensive - that means we will not do it.

      Wrong. An article from the category of those that determines the criterion "cost / efficiency". And the author absolutely rightly comes to the conclusion that everything that the ekranoplan can do, other means existing today can do the same or better.
  23. +2
    April 5 2020 10: 58
    The article is a typical rotten ordering, where the logic of conclusions does not even smell. 75% loss? But nothing that the technique is not just new, but essentially experimental and was tested. Yes, and no one had done this before, there was no experience in using such a flight mode. How many planes crashed during the tests? Following your logic, the Su-57 needs to urgently cancel his 100% non-combat losses.
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 11: 18
      But nothing that the technique is not just new, but essentially experimental and was tested. Yes, and no one had done this before, there was no experience in using such a flight mode.


      And why is he needed at all, this mode?

      Following your logic, the Su-57 needs to urgently cancel his 100% non-combat losses.


      That is, all built Su-57 crashed? Drink some water.
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 11: 23
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        That is, all built Su-57 crashed? Drink some water.

        Crashed 100% serial, drink it yourself.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And why is he needed at all, this mode?

        And why airplanes are needed at all, they are absolutely useless. Do not remember when it was said?
        1. +2
          April 5 2020 12: 45
          Crashed 100% serial, drink it yourself.


          You do not pull one accident by the ears. The accident rate of the Su-57 is much lower than that of ekranoplanes.

          And why airplanes are needed at all, they are absolutely useless. Do not remember when it was said?


          About the futility of aircraft? Never said.
          1. 0
            April 5 2020 23: 00
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            You do not pull one accident by the ears. The accident rate of the Su-57 is much lower than that of ekranoplanes.

            1 serial = 1 loss, what is pulled? this is the statistics that you are trying to, in the case of ekranoplans not just pull, but pull with a sub-twist)).
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            About the futility of aircraft? Never said.

            But you don’t have to lie))), but if you are not lying .... then it’s completely pointless to discuss this topic with you, not knowing the history of aviation, you are still trying to write something about the ekranoplan ... the diagnosis is hopeless.
            1. 0
              April 6 2020 11: 18
              1 serial = 1 loss, what is pulled?


              This is a statistical fluctuation, non-serial should also be taken into account, they also fly.
              If the ekranoplans perfectly flew off their tests and then one serial one crashed, it would be a different conversation at all.
              But they got pretty much everything; in the case of them, the event was repeated and repetitive in nature.

              It's clear?

              it’s completely pointless to discuss this topic with you,


              It’s pointless to discuss something with you, they said about planes that they would not be commercially viable, but by the first 15 years since the Wright brothers had flown, such skeptics had shut up.

              Ekranoplanes had almost 80 years of development.
              And not one could be made profitable, although there were attempts to get exhausted, and not only in the USSR.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 15: 21
      Are you so nervous because YOU have made you nervous in public?
    3. +1
      April 5 2020 15: 40
      Quote: JD1979
      Article typical rotten ordering

      No. And here is your comment - it smells
  24. 0
    April 5 2020 10: 59
    I read the article and comments as cyberpunk. Fighting ekranoplanes with aircraft carriers ... The reality is more interesting - the flagship of the US Navy, the pride of the nation, the participant in Operation Desert Storm and the Yugoslav war, the nuclear carrier Theodore Roosevelt was blown away. Carrier trough nailed to Guam, the commander fired, the crew in quarantine. The wing of the carrier-based aircraft can not help, the enemy is not visible. AUG is somewhere nearby ...
  25. IC
    +1
    April 5 2020 11: 02
    Very sensible article. The problem has been analyzed from all sides, and most importantly from the economic one. Many people completely forget about this side. In the USSR, money was poorly considered. And many designers completely ignored.
    In terms of commercial use. In the early 90s, after declassifying the topic, there were proposals from Alekseev's design bureau. In one of the conversations, I asked a question on the legal aspect. And they did not know about it at all. The functioning of aviation and the fleet is implemented on the basis of international regulatory documents.
    But for ekronoplan this is not and really will not be. In addition, everything must be insured. And who will ekranoplans insure? Lack of appropriate port infrastructure. How to pass straits, for example, the Bosphorus. And much more.
  26. +5
    April 5 2020 11: 24
    About the article. Everything seems to be true, but there are nuances.
    Comparison is not correct.
    Firstly, about strengthening the hull of aircraft and ekranoplanes. There is one thing but. If the reinforcement is done on an already designed airplane, then yes - the gain = this is overweight. But if you design the gain as part of the supporting structure, then these are completely different parameters. The increase will be, but not so serious.

    Secondly, ekranoplans (and ekranopleta we will call them all EPs below) have never been conceived as an alternative to airplanes. Initially, they were the development of hydrofoil and hovercraft.
    Accordingly, you need to compare with them.
    And then a picture looms.
    When compared with SVP (Jeyran as a peer), EPs in the plus have 3-4 times higher speed (400 vs 100) and range (500 vs 1500) and a smaller crew (6-9 vs 21), but in the same 2-3 times less payload (20 vs 50). Moreover, they are approximately equal in cost.

    Question: Is the need for SVP recognized? Admitted.
    So why not use them in the same quality? Moreover, EP do not exclude SVP. They can be used in combination.

    Now we take the shock version. Compare with missile boats. Compare again with a peer. Project boat 1239 and. 1240
    With approximately the same armament (6 vs. 4 and 8), the EP has a higher speed (400 vs. 70-80), again, the range at maximum speed is higher than about 1,5-3 times (1500 against 500 and 900).
    The crew also has a smaller EP (10 vs. 60).
    Seaworthiness is approximately the same (5-6 points). But at the same time, this seaworthiness of the EP is only for takeoff and landing. The flight itself can take place in a stronger storm, but the range will decrease. It should also be noted that flight will have less impact on weapon control than swimming (well, the platform will "shake and jump" less). The control center for the EP, that for the boats is still mostly external.
    The cost of ES is most likely higher.

    Then in the mid-80s the need for small missile ships was not questioned. And here EP before boats had one advantage - speed. He will arrive at the calculated launch point earlier than the missile boat.
    Now, of course, the need for missile boats is less obvious.

    Now about the lifeguard version.
    The fact is that with a certain pilot skill, the EP exceeded the landing and take-off scores. Testers told about this in their memoirs. There is nothing about this in official documents, but there were more than 6 points in a couple of landings in a storm (there are also serious storms in the Caspian).
    Accordingly, the EP will be able to get into the storm, because in rescue aircraft, pilots have higher qualifications.
    Not always, because for such a landing, some conditions are required (more precisely, for the waves to go from one side), but it is possible.

    As for transport opportunities. It should be noted that Mriya took off only in '87. Almost 30 years after KM and 7 years of his death.
    Now compared engines. If you take the NK-87 and DT-18, then the difference in fuel consumption is 0,54 versus 0,34. At the same time, Mriya has 6 engines, and KM only 2 in flight mode. Moreover, with modern redesigning of engines it would be less, since experience just appeared. And then just put a little redundancy.

    And now for the most interesting snack. Somehow I came across a training manual of the Alekseev Institute for the design of ekranoplanes.
    So, all the ekranoplans / ekranoplanes built use an airplane scheme, which is ... ineffective for electric power generation. And the effective "flying wing" scheme itself ... does not have sufficient theoretical development.


    Now, with regard to accident rate and reliability. First about reliability. Question: which plane can fly without a tail? EP Alekseev may, as was proved by one of the accidents.
    In addition, no accidents - no tests. Just see how many accidents and losses at that time.

    That's it.

    As a result, we have that at present, ES can actually be used in at least two versions: transport (as an alternative to SVP) and in the rescue version.

    Another option - shock - is a moot point, but quite real (as a replacement for an RTO with Caliber, it’s quite suitable for itself).

    This is for the military.

    And in civilian life - this is a replacement for the SEC. Moreover, such projects were already in the early 80's, but again the death of Alekseev buried these plans.


    As a result, we can state that, unfortunately, many promising areas of research in our country are very dependent on the personality of the creator and their relationship with the government.
    1. +4
      April 5 2020 13: 02
      Comparison with SVP. SVP mainly remained in the landing version. And here the SVP has the advantage that they can actually go through the shallow water without fear of running into pitfalls or engineering structures. SVPs can actually go ashore and go back to the water, and so many times. The amphibianity of ekranoplanes is doubtful.

      Comparison with SPK. Yes, here the ekranoplanes can replace the SEC at greater distances. And this is the only real niche.

      Participation in rescue operations. Here the ability of ekranoplanes to land and take off at 5 points is declared. But is this possibility provided by the fact that the ekranoplan flies on the screen?
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 20: 36
        Yeah. and EP is generally above water. The same hedgehogs for SVP will be an obstacle.
        About going ashore - easy and not forced. Eaglet is proof of this.
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 22: 39
          Quote: alstr
          Yeah. and EP is generally above water

          No, not over water. EP sits on the water and in the displacement mode goes to the shore.
          Quote: alstr
          About going ashore - easy and not forced. Eaglet is proof of this.

          The eaglet is not proof. To shore this coast was specially prepared for him. And in the case when Orlyonok lost its tail, the state commission called the reason for insufficient structural strength - the day before Orlyonok sat on the rocks and microcracks went along the hull.
          1. 0
            April 6 2020 08: 34
            Not this way. In the case of Eaglet, two front engines act as an air cushion.
            In general, EP can be considered as SVP, but with a different type of air cushion creation.

            About the disaster Orlyonka. Nevertheless, a rare aircraft can fly without a tail and a marching engine. And after that the alloy from which the Eaglet was made was modified.
    2. +2
      April 5 2020 13: 27
      But if you design the gain as part of the supporting structure, then these are completely different parameters. The increase will be, but not so serious.


      Practice contradicts your statement - Orlyonok has the same payload as the Mi-26 or An-12, and the mass is 120 tons. Here is the gain.

      When compared with SVP (Jeyran as a peer), EPs in the plus have 3-4 times higher speed (400 vs 100) and range (500 vs 1500) and a smaller crew (6-9 vs 21), but in the same 2-3 times less payload (20 vs 50).


      Well, Dzheyran can land an airborne detachment and ekranoplan too. Where will the landing be more numerous and stronger? And can an ekranoplane slip through a flood meadow?
      And let's go, it turns out that his superiority in speed over KVP is a thing in itself, and requires an exorbitant price - reducing the strength of the landing force at times and narrowing the possibilities for its landing.

      They can be used in combination.


      What for? Why is it impossible to set up DKVP for the same money?

      Now we take the shock version. Compare with missile boats. Compare again with a peer. Project boat 1239 and. 1240


      1239 and 1240 are RTOs and not boats. Okay.
      There is a way to carry out a quick massive attack - an air strike from airplanes.
      There are forces that can hold the water area and not allow any enemy forces to go there without a fight - these are ships.

      What does an ekranoplan give such a thing that neither planes nor ships can? What does it do more efficiently? Quick attack? No, planes are more efficient, that’s obvious.
      Water retention? Here, too, by, and also obvious.

      Now about the lifeguard version.
      The fact is that with a certain pilot skill, the EP exceeded the landing and take-off scores. Testers told about this in their memoirs. There is nothing about this in official documents, but there were more than 6 points in a couple of landings in a storm (there are also serious storms in the Caspian).
      Accordingly, the EP will be able to get into the storm, because in rescue aircraft, pilots have higher qualifications.


      At six points, a ship of 5000 tons flies several meters up and down.

      Now compared engines. If you take the NK-87 and DT-18, then the difference in fuel consumption is 0,54 versus 0,34. At the same time, Mriya has 6 engines, and KM only 2 in flight mode. Moreover, with modern redesigning of engines it would be less, since experience just appeared.


      You do not confuse KM with the moon. This KM had two marching engines, Lun - another aerodynamics and another thing. And yes, in fact, the range of Lun is 2000 km. What about Mriya?
      This is a direct comparison - a loaded ekranoplan against a loaded aircraft with engines of the same era and similar years of construction.

      As a result, we have that at present, ES can actually be used in at least two versions: transport (as an alternative to SVP) and in the rescue version.


      Despite the fact that airplanes can also, and better.
      So why roll money into ekranoplans?
    3. 0
      April 5 2020 20: 02
      Since the interest in the topic of ekranoplanes has cooled down enough, maybe we just need to reduce the "theoretical" wishlist and make it more of a ship, taking as a basis not an airplane, but a skeg scheme of the SVP?
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 21: 23
        This is another.
        Well, yes, the question "why" in any case must be answered.
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 08: 48
          if I have a question, then who knows these warriors ... Perhaps they would be interested in a landing craft capable of slowly maneuvering and getting ashore as a SVP, but not as energy-intensive at full speed and with a displacement mode in reserve
    4. Aag
      0
      April 5 2020 21: 57
      Bravo! The most argumentated review of the article.
      I agree with the author of the article in the sense that there are no specific, urgent tasks that could not be solved by the available means. That it is now unacceptable to spend money on the creation (reconstruction) of electronic programs.
      But the argument did not convince about TTX (LTX). Especially about the accident rate.
    5. 0
      April 12 2020 03: 04
      [quote] Question: which plane can fly without a tail? [/
      Which plane can tear its tail in flight with one awkward helm movement
  27. -4
    April 5 2020 11: 36
    These are the ones with their calculations and formulas that ruined Russia! Effective managers! Why do we need a factory why ekranoplans.?! Sell minerals. Why should workers pay, why pay pensions? We will sell the resources and we have enough! So they think in the Duma and the Kremlin. The article is worthless. They are not, because the Americans introduced ekranoplans into the arms reduction program. And he just can sink the aircraft carrier.
    1. 0
      April 5 2020 13: 30
      These are the ones with their calculations and formulas that ruined Russia!


      Wrong, the Russian Federation since 1991 has only grown in territories, nobody has ruined it.
      The USSR collapsed, where billions of people's money was being fired for all sorts of projects without an account.

      And he just can sink the aircraft carrier.


      How?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 14: 33
          And you, presumably a professional, not an amateur? laughing
          But you don’t get into the buttons.

          So what can an ekranoplan do to an aircraft carrier? Amuse the interceptor crews?
          Well, please tell me, it’s all possible to measure with numbers, the launch line is such and such an issuance of a central control unit ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  28. +1
    April 5 2020 11: 37
    In the "special period" simply "fake news" is no longer enough, you have to get the "imperishable" out of the case.
  29. +3
    April 5 2020 11: 49
    I was glad to see an analysis of the applicability of ekranoplanes. For his part, he wrote more than once about the fundamental non-propulsion of ekranoplanes. If Alekseev himself indicated a maximum wave intensity of 500 points for a 3-ton apparatus, this means that such a vehicle cannot be let out further than rivers and lakes, and even then with restrictions on waves.
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 12: 05
      Where infa. Takeoff / landing seaworthiness 5 points - officially. In flight more.
      According to the memoirs of the testers, you can sit down with more excitement, but you need some experience.
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 15: 07
        5 points are fairy tales about a gray bull
    2. +1
      April 5 2020 13: 59
      It’s also impossible to rivers, the turn radius is 3 kilometers.
      1. -1
        April 5 2020 15: 52
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        turn radius 3 kilometers
        Could it be a 180 turn at speed?
    3. 0
      April 5 2020 15: 11
      Greetings!
      Give a link to a simply "masterpiece" and destructive discussion with your and ekranoplanniki participation on the ship. RU
  30. 0
    April 5 2020 11: 55
    There are a lot of letters and a purely accounting approach. The scope of application of ekranoplanes is extensive, and it is time to stop public discussion of military aspects altogether, especially since most of the comments, including this one, with all attempts to look professional, are in fact amateurish. I affirm that there are compelling arguments "FOR" the development of the topic, but in relation to military aspects, this is not a subject of obscurity on the Internet.
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 13: 28
      Here are just objections to the merits you do not have.

      I affirm that there are compelling arguments "FOR" the development of the topic, but in relation to military aspects, this is not a subject of obscurity on the Internet.


      It's a lie. There are no arguments and you cannot give them.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +3
      April 5 2020 15: 44
      Quote: Alexander Bezpalchev
      I affirm that there are strong arguments "FOR" the development of the topic.

      There is. For a limited circle of people who will receive funding for ekranoplans. For the Russian Navy there is not the slightest
      1. +1
        April 5 2020 19: 20
        their lafa ended, as the iPhone was removed
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 21: 24
          So, even GDP can give the go-ahead for innovation - if you take it where you need to and put everything up well.
          1. 0
            April 6 2020 18: 03
            it was all shoved not through Putin’s man, but on Medvedev’s man
            1. 0
              April 6 2020 18: 18
              A matter of time. GDP favors all innovators.
  31. +1
    April 5 2020 12: 00
    ekranoplan-ekranolet-"planted" on a retractable, own-air cushion-has no drawbacks-aviation and sea ships!
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 13: 29
      He does not have their merits, it’s more correct. With flaws there is a complete order.
  32. +1
    April 5 2020 12: 06
    Why ekranoplans are not needed by either the fleet or the aircraft as a whole
    I have not read the article, for the very formulation of the question is stupid. Wing is not needed, and wretched hovercraft, just do not live? It’s not for nothing that the Americans have ruined this area. By analogy with the strike complex, a ship is a projectile, an airplane is a rocket, an ekranoplan is a cruise missile.
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 13: 29
      Wing is not needed, and wretched hovercraft, just do not live?


      You just need to think a little and everything will become obvious.
  33. -1
    April 5 2020 12: 28
    Allegedly, with a maximum take-off mass of 544000 kg, the KM had a payload of 304000 kg, which is a record ratio between the weight of the aircraft and the payload.

    Count. If you believe in these figures, the proportion of the equipped weight of the ekranoplan in the maximum take-off mass is a little more than 44%. This is incomparably better than that of modern passenger airplanes, with a significant share of modern composites in the design and the lack of aircraft fuselage reinforcements necessary for landing on water and flying in dense air near the ground. For comparison, the same parameter:

    Embraer ERJ175LR - 56,2%.
    Embraer ERJ190LR - 55,8%.
    Embraer ERJ195LR - 57%.

    Thus, 44% are absolutely unrealistic numbers. Even with modern technology. The best aircraft from the same years as KM had a ratio of 69-70%. At the same time, they should not land on the water and did not have corresponding glider amplifications. In addition, KM enthusiasts have forgotten the fuel, and it should be considered a plus to the mass of an empty airplane or ekranoplan.

    Are we now having such "experts" on the site go mainstream ?! Charming! This gentleman rejects the high ratio of the curb weight of the ekranoplan. On what grounds? Based on the fact that Embraer's aircraft do not achieve this ratio! That is, in fact, he says the following - I can load no more than 200 kg into my cart. On this basis, it becomes clear to everyone that your BelAZ is impossible! Ugh, tree! That's the argument!
    Further, this titan of the mind claims that when calculating the mass, "CM enthusiasts forgot the fuel." Looking up quotes -
    with a maximum take-off weight of 544000 kg, the KM had a payload of 304000 kg
    Does a wise expert have a concept of what is MAXIMUM take-off weight?
    Is it possible to enter on the site what is the most elementary verification of materials? And then this material is at the level of the 7th grade of an extremely high school, and the author clearly remained there for the second year. Or has one lobby clash with another moved here? Well, let its members pay their mercenaries more! Or they will stop imprisoning their granddaughters for writing "reasoned" articles in order to steal the money allocated for their production! Shame ...
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 13: 50
      Orlyonok has a maximum take-off mass of 120000 tons, and a maximum load capacity of 20 tons. Unlike the mythical CM, these are very real numbers.
      Please comment on them.
      1. 0
        April 5 2020 16: 07
        Orlyonok has a maximum take-off weight 120000 tons, maximum load capacity of 20 tons.
        Che drank? feel Weight 100 - 140 tons.
        WIKI:
        Cargo capacity: up to 200 infantrymen or up to 28 kg of cargo or 000-1 armored personnel carriers.
        1. 0
          April 5 2020 21: 26
          Error. 120 tons take-off and 20 payload. Compare with the Mi-26 and An-12 which have the same load capacity.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 15: 15
      Monsieur, YOU do not just burn, but blaze!
    3. -1
      April 6 2020 10: 20
      Do you understand that BELAZ is made of steel, and the cart is made of wood? Wing is the same aluminum as on airplanes, despite the fact that BELAZ travels on the ground, and the aircraft must be lifted into the air.
  34. +1
    April 5 2020 12: 38
    Oh and a lot of words! Words, like a smoke screen ...
    Deeds are more important than words. The Union produced ekranoplans, and did not discuss ,, concepts ,,. A serious state, the USSR, could afford to have unique models of military equipment in service. As it is now, for example, the United States can afford to have convertiplanes, which, according to the logic of the author of the article, are worse than planes and helicopters.
    The Union could afford it. The stupid, impoverished and dependent quasi-state ,, Capitalist Russia ,, (,, RK ,,,) these types of weapons are not available. As we see now, it can hardly reproduce samples of Soviet aircraft 50 years ago.
    RK, for example, cannot currently produce combat vehicles with vertical take-off and landing, lagging behind the USSR in the 70s of the last century, and not from modern developed states.
    No money? Where are they? After all, the state machine is working. Millions of people work daily and hourly in good faith. Where is the money earned? It’s not time to ask this cunning, effective manager’s question? It’s not time to think about: ,, Why is a thieving and deceitful state functioning on the territory of Russia ,, the Republic of Kazakhstan ?,
    Indeed, in the case of force majeure, with the participation of aggressive neighbors, managers will try in quiet, quietly. And in the old tanks (BMP, BTR, MTLB ...) burn ,, dear Russians ,,. Falling with torches from heaven, and not seeing the enemy in the sight. Choking in ,, noisy ,, steel coffins in the Atlantic.
    But let it be fattening? ,, choke ,, earning income of a million a day? Do we really need such a sacrifice?
    1. -3
      April 5 2020 13: 51
      Breathe deeply, drink some water, you will feel better, do not hesitate.
    2. -1
      April 6 2020 10: 03
      And for the managers to respond weakly? In wartime, such alarmists are shot.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 13: 13
        Just for the sake of coronavirus). I do not like, comment on comments on your comments ,,.
        Are you strong, look, in the showdown, Evilion? Maybe we’ll shoot the arrow, In Donetsk, May 2? Will you come up if there is no quarantine?
        More accurately with ,, pathos ,,. And then you get into some kind of sad story.
        About ,, wartime ,, do you KNOW something or just HEARED? In order to speak confidently about executions, one must hold at least some significant time in the hands of military weapons. Have you ever held a weapon? This, you see, isn’t a mouse to keep sweaty hands
        1. -1
          April 6 2020 14: 42
          "A-ah! The generals have betrayed!" This was even shouted in the spring of 45.
  35. +4
    April 5 2020 13: 54
    the feeling that the winged author took the girl away.
    1. -3
      April 5 2020 14: 35
      I’ve been taken away all my life for a girl once, and only because I didn’t love her, I kept her close for sexual discharge and nothing more.

      I don’t like the ekranoplane because I feel sorry for the people's (that is, including mine) money for it.
  36. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 14: 34
      Many, many years of labor, research, experimentation, a breakthrough of money and the way out ... yes, in principle, nothing. WIG and could not occupy any of its niche. Neither here nor abroad.


      What are we talking about.

      And even if we assume that with new technologies, materials we could now achieve better results, it should be remembered that we do not have either Alekseev himself or the power of the Soviet Union.


      With new technologies and materials, airplanes will also switch to a new quality and the gap between them and ekranoplanes will remain or worsen in effectiveness.
  37. +3
    April 5 2020 15: 06
    Quote: Dead Day
    and everything seems to be correct, and the arguments are valid ... but I, if I choose, would prefer to be at the moment of impact ... on the ekranoplan.

    To die heroically? After all, the cat cried out the means of protection at the same "Lunya", EMNIP 1 or 2 twin pairs of 23 mm. How will you defend against the same missile from an airplane?

    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The author compares EFs with airplanes, but does not mention hovercraft and hydrofoils, and here EFs are a direct competitor to them, and surpasses them both in speed and economy (SVP), even with the parameters that the author cited. (it is clear that we are not talking about the landing options, although ETs and how to drop them should not be discarded). These are three.

    The ekranoplan can only be competitive with SVP and SPK in the transport version. And even then only in terms of "range" and "speed". Especially SVP. I have not seen ships on the PC in the amphibious version, so there is nothing to say about competition.
    But even in relation to the landing ships on the VP, the ekranoplan has no advantages in terms of unloading the landing. If the coast is not equipped, then the DKVP will come to the coast, land the troops, again "stand on the pillow" and return to the basing point. Now explain how an ekranoplan will land on birches (the same "Eaglet" for an example). He will be able to go ashore, the chassis will be allowed if the ground is not very weak. Then he threw aside the "bow", landed troops and ...? What's next?? Will he be able to return to the water if the coast is not a flat surface, but a chaotic pile of stones? Further, entering the water, can he move along the same sandy shore? Will it sit on the ground to the full height of the landing gear?

    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    For some reason, the author strictly ties EP to seaports, but why is this? Ships with a large draft of several meters are tied to the ports, what draft can a short plane have?

    And where do you plan to base such ekranoplanes? If in the Black Sea Fleet then where? In the Caspian? On rivers, on lakes or Tsimlyansk reservoir?
    Where in the Baltic, or in the North? In the Far East? Only on the coast, it is best in the port, as in the most secure point with ready-made infrastructure. Or the same infrastructure will have to be done for ES.

    Quote: Sergey S.
    He contacted quite a bit with experts on ekranoplanes from a past life.
    They convinced the usefulness of ekranoplanes.

    Find a specialist in any industry from a past life who will be against their products? For example, find a rocket launcher who will say about his technique that she’s a fig, even if her performance characteristics are not outstanding

    Quote: Sergey S.
    Who is against a plane with a triple load at an extremely low altitude ...

    The "Orlyonok", EMNIP load was about 20 tons with a range of 1500-2000 km. Any transport aircraft of the IL-76 class will carry more payload than the Orlyonok. So there is no need to talk about the triple load.

    Quote: Sergey S.
    And if necessary "Eaglet" took off at 3400 m.

    "Olenok" ekranoplan, not ekranolet. The ekranolet can take off to a height of several kilometers. The ekranoplan is rigidly tied to the ground.

    Quote: Sergey S.
    A beach instead of a landing strip ...

    Beach? Try to get out of the water on a sandy beach. Especially if you have a weight of 100 kilograms Feet get stuck in the sand. And then a "fool" weighing 80-90 tons will go to the beach ???? Oh well

    Quote: ROSS 42
    How to tell you? Quickly, inconspicuously for radars, at a distance of the launch range of the anti-ship missiles, releasing which are also discreet and retire.

    The radius of patrol aircraft DRLO aircraft carrier - about 400 km. The detection range of such a target from a height of 9-10 km gives another 400 km. Now tell me, how, having been detected at a distance of 800 km, the ekranoplan will quietly launch missiles in which the range is about the same as the detection limit? After all, simply violating the integrity of the wing and flow around it will be asymmetric. So the ekranoplan is likely to turn into an underwater one.

    Quote: ROSS 42
    Have you heard about the S-400 shot down by an “enemy”? But!!! No one questions their relevance and the need for production. Why is there such a bias towards ekranoplans?

    The difference is that the S-400 is nothing revolutionary. This is an evolutionary path of development. And although he, like the S-300, didn’t shoot down a single aircraft, it doesn’t mean at all that he will not bring them down. That is, the air defense system will fulfill its functionality, good or bad = second thing. EP - no.
    It is not better than a surface ship or aircraft (although it has only one plus compared to the NK - its speed). For the most part, he will not fulfill the tasks assigned to him. The question is - why is it needed then?

    Quote: Genry
    The starting range is not constant. Caliber has already shown it

    Do not confuse "God's gift with scrambled eggs". The launch range of that very "Caliber" is the launch range of a missile designed to strike on the coast. And if the overwhelming majority of the people do not know how to listen to what they are told, this is their problem. But the commander of the Caspian Flotilla, almost 2 years before the launch of "Calibers" across Syria from the Caspian, talked about the exercises and said that the anti-ship was hit at a distance of 375 km, and the ground one at a distance of more than 1000 km. But we have the majority of "writers", not "readers". For many, this infa passed by and they persisted in thinking about the performance characteristics of the "Caliber" based on the export modification ...

    Quote: Genry
    The presence of combat ekranoplanes will force the enemy to patrol vast territories, with very short time intervals, which is not absolutely effective and requires huge costs (cost-effectiveness of the war).

    Check out how AWACS patrols from an aircraft carrier. About their number, radius and patrol pattern
    1. 0
      April 5 2020 15: 56
      Cool you drove through us! laughing As soon as I stumbled upon it by accident, I did not even read it. Do not know how to respond to comments?
    2. Aag
      +1
      April 5 2020 22: 19
      Try to get out of the water on a sandy beach. Especially if you have a weight of 100 kilograms. Feet get stuck in the sand.
      Sorry, I remembered:
      "If you cut off the wings of a bird,
      And if you cut off your legs too,
      The bird will die of boredom.
      Because he won't be able to sit. "
      A. Ivanov.
    3. -1
      April 6 2020 10: 02
      S-300 and S-400 shot down a lot of things. They were sort of tested on targets, and missiles flew where they needed to. There is reason to expect that it will get into the F-16, even older models fall.
  38. -1
    April 5 2020 15: 06
    Weakly.
    It was necessary to embed stronger on this sawed crap
  39. +1
    April 5 2020 15: 16
    "Dangerous moment -" Eaglet "turns. In a straight line, this car flew much safer "

    To begin with, this once again stolen photo with unspecified authorship and / or the exact address from which it was stolen is a “mirror” with retouched (Photoshop deleted!) Number “26”.
    You second - do not need to build “guesses” to prove the truth of your theories: “Eaglet” did not turn anywhere, flew in a straight line and demonstrated its ability to roll.
    This is me, as the author of a photo story stolen by you somewhere, I say
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 16: 23
      Photos from the Internet, sorry if offended. I can replace it with another or indicate authorship at the end of the article, if you want.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 09: 17
        You did not offend me, you, excuse me, yourself offended!
        You, I believe, know that when driving a car on the road, you must know and comply with traffic rules. Otherwise, you will be punished with fines and disqualifications.
        When “going” to the Internet with your texts, you are also required to comply with the laws on the protection of copyright and related rights set forth in Chapter IV of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation. But you, as well as the moderators / editors of VO, spit on these “Internet traffic rules” and even, in the person of Roman Skomorokhov, develop theories to justify your dense nature and legal nihilism.
        For reference: you can absolutely absolutely free use other people's illustrations (and other fruits of the creative activity of third authors) if it is a non-commercial and / or educational purpose, but under one indispensable condition: in each specific case (under each publication), authorship must be indicated or , as a last resort (if you cannot establish the author objectively) indicate a direct link to the source from which you borrowed the illustration.
        This is a requirement of the law of the Russian Federation!
        In case of violation of the Law, and you violated it, using my work without specifying the author’s FI, THERE HAS FORTESTED YOURSELF ALLOWED NAME RIGHT!
        In this case, you will face prosecution, and the punishment guaranteed by modern domestic judicial practice is compensation for damage and non-pecuniary damage in the amount of 10000 + 1000 for each case of copyright infringement. Plus, your reimbursement of the plaintiff's legal expenses - salaries of lawyers, state duty, notarial expenses, etc.
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 12: 08
          Well, that is, if I indicate "Photo: Dmitry Grinyuk" under the photo, will that suit you? Or will you run to court anyway?
          1. -1
            April 6 2020 16: 04
            Judging by the ironic style and the meaning of your “proposal” - you did not understand anything. It's a pity.
            The following will suit me:
            1. You generally delete this photo-fake, for the production of which my original photo was used. You can put the original indicating authorship in the form of © Dmitry Grinyuk, 1993
            2. Here in the comment, apologize for the violation of my copyrights, preferably sincerely.
            And then I will not "run to court", I will regret you ...
            1. 0
              April 6 2020 18: 14
              I think it’s worth clarifying in what status you took this photo? By a private person or working under a contract acc. organizations?
            2. 0
              April 6 2020 18: 22
              I can put the original photo with copyright. Give a link to it. And of course, with evidence that it is yours. And that's enough for that, I think.
              1. 0
                April 6 2020 20: 27
                You, Timokhin, are not in the position to define something and dictate something! )))
                1. 0
                  April 7 2020 06: 07
                  The fact of public and baseless insult to YOUR (on YOUR side)
                  Including legal perspectives
                2. +1
                  April 7 2020 12: 42
                  No, I'm in that position. I respect copyrights - give the original unfrozen photo, some evidence that it is yours, and I will replace the illustration and put your copyright under it.
                  You do not want?
                  As you wish.
                  After all, how can I be sure that you are writing the truth? You may well be one of the countless psychopaths in Runet.
                  1. 0
                    April 7 2020 14: 54
                    In order to dispel your type of doubt, you don’t even have to leave your home site “VO”, and in the search built into it, it’s enough to type my F.I. and do not forget to press the ENTER button - and you will be happy!
                    However, you persuaded me with your obstinacy: if a person does not understand the words, will only a few thinner own wallet help him?
                    1. 0
                      April 7 2020 17: 28
                      In general, since you refuse a constructive dialogue, I deleted the controversial photo. In this article, there could be an original photo with a signature about who made it and when.
                      But you decided to leave the show. No problem.
                      1. 0
                        April 7 2020 18: 29
                        We will not have a constructive dialogue here and not now, and all the requested evidence will be presented at the hearing.
                      2. 0
                        April 7 2020 19: 30
                        In Sportloto, do not forget to write more.
                      3. 0
                        April 7 2020 21: 40
                        I have long understood, Mr. Timokhin, that you are not a reader, you are exclusively a writer. Like that Chukchi from a joke.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 16: 30
      Monsieur, watch the speech. And extinguish your burning poop with a fire extinguisher
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 09: 18
        A physicist with the letter M ... it says a lot, if not everything! )))
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 18: 07
          Yes, it says a lot, Physicist M is a new torpedo, and it will be.
          Thanks to me.
        2. 0
          April 6 2020 18: 11
          And about a lot, if not about everything, it says that there were no objections to Timokhin’s amateurish article from YOU.
          I myself am familiar with the subject more than, in particular, because I worked closely with those who did this at TsKBSPK and provided (covering a significant part of the Caspian Sea) flights
  40. 0
    April 5 2020 15: 21
    Why ekranoplans are not needed by either the fleet or the aircraft as a whole

    Because the state of the Russian Federation is not able to build them.
    1. 0
      April 5 2020 16: 28
      Do they need to be built?
      1. Aag
        -1
        April 5 2020 22: 23
        Let's agree, I will not build a digital signature, and you will cease to say that this is complete crap? hi
  41. +4
    April 5 2020 15: 26
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Orlyonok has a maximum take-off mass of 120000 tons, and a maximum load capacity of 20 tons. Unlike the mythical CM, these are very real numbers.
    Please comment on them.

    Alexander1 "Olenok" has a take-off 120 tons, not 120 tons
  42. +1
    April 5 2020 15: 38
    Thanks to the author, I put everything on the shelves. I agree with every word. He dealt with this topic on diploma design. I had to prove the necessity and exclusivity of electric power, while the cat itself scratched its soul. Sea-based - this is already a huge minus in aerodynamic perfection + the need to carry starting engines with you + the need for developed infrastructure - nothing remains beyond the ambition. Dead end branch of aviation development.
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 16: 23
      For sure. And there is.
  43. +2
    April 5 2020 16: 10
    I remember that in my Chukchi childhood there was a flying boat "Catalina". The adults constantly mentioned her. Apparently, for the life of the military settlement lost among the hills, "Katalina" was of great importance.
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 16: 31
      Yes, a good seaplane
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 17: 36
      This is some very old childhood was visible. An-24, An-26 and Mi-8 flew to my Chukchi village
      1. +2
        April 5 2020 17: 43
        Yes, dear Author, very early childhood)) I learned to speak))) Apparently, other planes flew, but will a child at such a tender age remember abbreviations? And the beautiful word "Catalina" was imprinted in the memory forever))
        1. Aag
          +1
          April 5 2020 22: 34
          Probably, like "Calypso" - thanks to J & Cousteau! hi
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. +2
          April 5 2020 22: 50
          Rudolph, Alex did not answer you, but my village was Ureliki))
          1. The comment was deleted.
  44. +1
    April 5 2020 16: 27
    Follow the link - http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=744&p=11#p1002160

    the epic discussion about ekranoplanes that took place in the professional community is copied, which makes it especially valuable.
    The ekranoplanes' place is quite clearly defined.
  45. -3
    April 5 2020 16: 36
    In the end, look at the photo "Moon" or "Loonie"))))))
    6 PU anti-ship missiles "Moskit", and under them - the thick belly of the fuselage (or body). Empty. Or place extra there. tanks.
    But right now it's not about that.
    Let the new "Lun" have 8 seats for PU.
    Yes, EPRO even more.
    But each pair of PU has a removable design, that is, a modular principle.
    We remove the "mosquito" cases and set up an air defense unit.
    Well, if they write about the N1 board that they have their own anti-aircraft defense, then here you can trick.
    And so, we have 6 launchers "Mosquito" or Caliber or .... Bramos or .... Dagger and missile air defense system and plus "Armor". And maybe there is still some thread Peresvet with Chelubey ...
    Is it not promising to have in the arsenal of the Baltic Fleet, Black Sea Fleet, and the Caspian Flotilla a pair of such ships?
    They will certainly be cooler than any rocket boat.
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 17: 33
      For the money that is needed for all this, you can build a regiment of Su-30SM modernized for "Onyx" and in the future "Zircon".
      So compare.
      1. -3
        April 6 2020 04: 00
        What am I snowing
        What do i know
        What do I rain
        Torrential ......
        Not convinced
        WIG is not a nuclear submarine.
        For the factory, this is also an airplane, only a little more ...
        But in the snow and torrential rain your SS will carry out the combat mission, but they won’t return home. Amen
  46. +1
    April 5 2020 16: 56
    Over a hundred years, a myriad of aircraft has been produced; therefore, they have been studied and are economically viable. And how many serial EPs, t. Did you count Timokhin? And, I apologize, for what period?
    They mentioned hydrofoils. Maybe there were a lot of them in the European part, but in Siberia there are not many. There you had roads then, and in Siberia there are still two lanes on the highway between the city. It was, I emphasize, beautiful and high-speed Transport. They crushed. And ekranoplanes, too, will ditch. Without studying and building new ones, I will nakornu. After all, there was nothing good in the USSR. But this country was the first to be in space. And the same "Mriya" created. soldier
    1. 0
      April 5 2020 17: 34
      So what kind of serial can we talk about if they have an efficiency lower than the engine and 75% accident rate?
      This was a dead end from the very beginning, so the direction was crushed even under the USSR.
      And they did it right.
    2. +1
      April 5 2020 17: 57
      Quote: serzh sibiryak
      and there were many, but few in Siberia

      missiles went along the Ob, but the problem is that because of the wings they need great depths at the pier, and even at night you can’t walk because of the marshes request
    3. +1
      April 5 2020 19: 24
      Just a trash with ekranoplanes in the Central Design Bureau for the SEC and poheril our SEC
      There was an excellent article in Shipbuilding with a lot of technical details.
  47. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      April 5 2020 18: 57
      author of the article paid flurodros.


      That's just with the justification for this rotten statement you did not ask.

      The undoubted advantages of ekranoplanes are

      1) effective load capacity (mass of cargo / mass of delivery vehicle ... cargo price / price of delivery vehicle. No one has yet canceled the sea protest, if the author generally approached the subject of maritime logistics a kilometer away)


      We look at Orlyonka - the maximum take-off weight is 120 tons, the carrying capacity is 20 tons. The most disadvantageous transport in the world is coming out. How so?

      2) Speed ​​- the ability to solve many operational and strategic tasks, previously inaccessible.


      With airplanes comparable in speed?

      3) The inability to hit the ekranoplan with modern means. The WaterWater, EarthWater complexes will not be able to work out due to speed, the complexes of AirEarth, AirWater, AirAir and Air will not be able to work out due to design reasons.


      This is simply not true - any modern naval air defense system affects such targets in the entire range of heights. URVV will also take it completely, the ekranoplan has not so small EPR that it could not be detected from an airplane against the background of water.
      You are just lying.

      b) to catch in the landing zone .... for the board there is no problem swirling for 10-20 minutes in the detection area and to remove the radio signals. Carrying capacity allows rape radio in any range to any depth. And if you simply equip an additional vehicle with an electronic vehicle, then you can jam a quarter of the map.


      And what of this cannot be done without an ekranoplan?
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 12: 29
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        We look at Orlyonka - the maximum take-off weight is 120 tons, the carrying capacity is 20 tons. The most disadvantageous transport in the world is coming out. How so?


        Let us not forget the strength standards for hydroaviation, above.
        For example, IL-76 (takeoff weight 195 tons), carrying capacity 28-60 tons at a range of 4200 - 3600 km.
        MDE Orlyonok (take-off weight 140 tons), load capacity 28 tons at a range of 1500 km.

        IL-76 transports 225 fighters or 4 BMD-2s landing method (3 landing),
        MDE type Orlyonok - 200 fighters or 2 armored personnel carriers or 2 infantry fighting vehicles - on an un-equipped coast - I’m sure that 3 BMDs in Orlyonok will fit in loading and size in terms of weight and weight - they go into the cargo compartment ..

        That is, as the amphibious assault — IL-76 and the MDE Orlyonok — are comparable in composition of the transported assault forces.
        The difference in range, speed. And the possibilities of landing. The price of the MDE Orlyonok is 2-2,5 times cheaper than the IL-76

        Having redesigned the "Eaglet" for a carrier of 6 anti-ship missiles weighing, or 4500 kg each, or 6-8 sea-based missile launchers, it is quite possible to get an inexpensive mobile platform-carrier.
        1. 0
          April 7 2020 17: 30
          MDE type Orlyonok - 200 fighters or 2 armored personnel carriers or 2 infantry fighting vehicles - on an un-equipped coast - I’m sure that 3 BMDs in Orlyonok will fit in loading and size in terms of weight and weight - they go into the cargo compartment ..


          And now deliver them from Pskov to Murmansk.
          1. +1
            April 7 2020 22: 17
            And then in a day manage to land IL-76 on the Midway Atoll (the length of the strip on the largest of the islands is 1200 meters).

            In conditions of war in the Pacific Ocean, the south of the Indian Ocean, ekranoplanes can be very good (landing near a small atoll, organizing a defense point on the atoll with air defense and anti-ship missiles, and, as a result, protecting or controlling a large ocean area with a minimum of fleet costs).
            1. 0
              April 7 2020 22: 39
              And then in a day manage to land IL-76 on the Midway Atoll (the length of the strip on the largest of the islands is 1200 meters).


              1. Do you understand that the delivery of goods from Pskov to Murmansk is much more likely than to Midway?
              2. No ekranoplan will fly from Russia to Midway. Aircraft - only with refueling in the air (which our VTA basically does not have) or one way.
              3. During the war for the islands of the Pacific Ocean, various HYDROPLANES will be needed. But not ekranoplans.
              Here are examples from the past



              About this size, with the possibility of landing l / s and equipment ashore.
              But I cannot politically imagine a situation in which we would have to wage a Pacific war in Oceania, Papua New Guinea and around.
              And without this, even seaplanes are not needed. About ekranoplans and no speech.
              1. +1
                April 7 2020 23: 10
                Do you understand that the delivery of cargo from Pskov to Murmansk is much more likely than to Midway?

                In this situation, transport aircraft are not needed, and even in the reach of fighters from Sweden and Norway. Railway transport is cheaper (up to 10 times or more) and simpler and more reliable.

                No ekranoplan will fly from Russia to Midway. Aircraft - only with refueling in the air (which our VTA basically does not have) or one way.

                There are such bases in the Far East, and 5-7 thousand km is already a very real distance.
                And in this form the system will work for conditional Japan very much (10 thousand islands and large areas for control)


                During the war for the islands of the Pacific, various HYDROPLANES will be needed. But not ekranoplans.

                And here the most interesting lies. The ekranoplanes outperform the payload of seaplanes (and significantly, the proportion of the payload of seaplanes does not exceed 30%, 22-25% approximately, if more precisely, and ekranoplanes up to 40%, judging by your own article), while in other parameters they identical (from the conditions required for take-off - flight, through the required materials and technologies to the infrastructure)
                1. 0
                  April 7 2020 23: 25
                  In this situation, transport aircraft are not needed, and even in the reach of fighters from Sweden and Norway. Railway transport is cheaper (up to 10 times or more) and simpler and more reliable.


                  It happens that it is necessary quickly. There is peace time, but it is necessary quickly. It happens that we have air supremacy and need to quickly.
                  It happens from Chelyabinsk to AB Kant to Kyrgyzstan - and quickly.
                  It happens in Bergamo doctors throw.
                  It happens that you need to deliver the S-400 battery to Hmeimim.
                  QUICKLY.
                  So understandable? How to do it all ekranoplan?

                  There are such bases in the Far East, and 5-7 thousand km is already a very real distance.


                  For an airplane, such a distance is real with air refueling. But it is absolutely unrealistic for ekranoplanes at the current level of technical development, or a project like the American Pelican is needed. Even in the dimensions of the KM it is not possible to build such an ekranoplane, engines with a specific consumption of somewhere in 0,2 kg / kgf * h and a thrust of 12-15 thousand kgs are needed. This is unrealistic

                  Plus, the wave factor here - the Pacific Ocean is actually not Pacific, and the ekranoplan there will most of the year simply dig into the wave and break.

                  And here the most interesting lies. The ekranoplanes outperform the payload of seaplanes (and significantly, the proportion of the payload of seaplanes does not exceed 30%, 22-25% approximately, if more precisely, and in ekranoplanes up to 40%, judging by your article)


                  in my article, the order of figures was determined by the presence of fuel on board the CM for a flight of 1500 km - hundreds of tons. This was not an accurate calculation, and this was stated in the article.

                  The exact data is for Orlyonok - 120 tons max take-off weight and 20 tons payload. One of the most inefficient vehicles in the world.

                  Well, traditionally for lovers of linear thinking (this is when we have planes, if they fly, then only as in the example from Pskov to Murmansk, and then no, the reality is over, the world map too) is a tactical task.

                  The MP battalion is surrounded by the enemy on one of the volcanic (and therefore rocky) islands, a battle is underway so that the troops do not die before the deblockade operation (this is several hours), they must throw ammunition on them by parachute.

                  How to do it on ekranoplane?
                  I look forward to hearing.
                  1. +1
                    April 8 2020 01: 38
                    Anything larger than the battalion will still require a transfer, either on landing / transport ships, or an entire BTA division.
                    It happens that it is necessary quickly. There is peace time, but it is necessary quickly. It happens that we have air supremacy and need to quickly.
                    It happens from Chelyabinsk to AB Kant to Kyrgyzstan - and quickly.
                    It happens in Bergamo doctors throw.
                    It happens that you need to deliver the S-400 battery to Hmeimim.
                    QUICKLY.
                    So understandable? How to do it all ekranoplan?

                    ALL of the above particular cases, which can be solved by requisition / order from a private company.

                    The second point is contrary to the H8K World War II flying boat. And why is ekranoplana forbidden to refuel?

                    Plus, the wave factor here - the Pacific Ocean is actually not Pacific, and the ekranoplan there will most of the year simply dig into the wave and break.

                    The screen effect is present at a distance of up to half the wing span, i.e. with a wingspan of 40 meters, the screen effect will be present at a flight height of up to 20 meters.
                    Already a 20 meter wave can even flood an aircraft carrier, and aircraft will not be able to fly in weather corresponding to this storm (this is a tropical hurricane, note).

                    in my article, the order of figures was determined by the presence of fuel on board the CM for a flight of 1500 km - hundreds of tons. This was not an accurate calculation, and this was stated in the article.

                    If so, then this is a completely inaccurate calculation, on cruise mode, the engine thrust in flight is usually 1/3 of the maximum on the ground (this is for an airplane), for KM this will be a thrust of 20-26 tons (2 engines out of 10, at rated power, and not in cruising mode, 0,7 kg / kgf * h, http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sea/km1.html, http://aviaros.narod.ru/rd-7 .htm) and the take-off mode is already considered separately (5-10 minutes of full operation of all engines).
                    And already by this technique, with the old VD-7 engines (1957), the CM is eating 70 tons for 1500 km (of which 14 tons for take-off, 56 tons for flight in 4 hours), and not hundreds at all. And this is on engines not designed for cruising speeds of 400-500 km / h.
                    And with this approach, the AN-124 can even be voracious.

                    Exact data is for Orlyonok - 120 tons max take-off weight
                    this is already wrong - 140 tons of maximum take-off weight, and with an empty mass of 100 tons, it is already better than the Be-200 (by weight of an empty plane to take-off).

                    How to do it on ekranoplane?

                    A towed glider, for example (with a simple autopilot).
                    Since the VTA somehow resets supplies (or somehow they resets supplies under the air defense fire, this means that this action is supported by military aviation and it will be in any scenario), then there is almost no opposition from the enemy air defense, then the glider on the hill will jump the ridge and land on the position of the battalion (rather than scattering half of the supplies to the enemy).
                    1. 0
                      April 8 2020 15: 03
                      ALL of the above particular cases, which can be solved by requisition / order from a private company.


                      That is, you so much want ekranoplanes that you are ready to slam military transports for their sake? What makes you think that civilians will be able to requisition something? In a threatened period, they can overtake planes abroad and change registration, for example. In what condition their Air Force planes do not know, their pilots are not trained to fight, there are no electronic warfare equipment on planes. This is some kind of sectarianism, dear.
                      Well, okay - the airborne assault must be dropped.
                      Are you going to take the next step "I want ekranoplanes so much that I am ready to finish off not only VTA, but also the Airborne Forces for them"?

                      The screen effect is present at a distance of up to half the wing span, i.e. with a wingspan of 40 meters, the screen effect will be present at a flight height of up to 20 meters.


                      At an altitude of 10 kilometers, any large plane flies quietly without risking anything due to weather near the earth or water, with maximum fuel efficiency, almost without shaking, and without the risk of hitting the water.

                      If so, then this is a completely inaccurate calculation, cruising


                      This is a minimum calculation - this is how the minimum numbers are determined. In order to state what you state, you must at least EXACTLY know the aerodynamic quality of the KM, on which all these figures depend.

                      this is already wrong - 140 tons of maximum take-off weight, and with an empty mass of 100 tons, it is already better than the Be-200 (by weight of an empty plane to take-off).


                      Let's compare the comparable. We have a task - to transfer 20 tons of cargo.
                      There is an An-12 aircraft - it can solve this problem.
                      There is a Mi-26 helicopter - it can also solve this problem.
                      There is an ekranoplan Eaglet - he can also solve this problem.
                      We have enough money for one thing. Well, or two aircraft, for example.
                      So compare, choose.

                      But keep in mind that for errors you have to pay for lost wars. For example, after 10 years we needed to fight in the desert and we need to deliver the goods there. Or in the mountains.
                      And we have ekranoplanes instead of airplanes.

                      A towed glider, for example (with a simple autopilot).


                      That is, in order to have ekranoplanes, you also need to build landing gliders, and aircraft towing for them, right? Isn’t it easier to send an airplane?

                      Pure sectarianism, citizen.
                      1. +1
                        April 8 2020 18: 25
                        Does the case have anything to say? All this is a transition to personalities and special cases, and even the denial of physical phenomena (the aerodynamic quality of an ekranoplan is worse than that of an airplane - this is real sectarianism).

                        Mob the plan provides for the confiscation of vehicles from the public and companies (in WWII this was done even in the United States with its airlines, but now this will not work, explain why?). The army has 200 LA VTA, in GA 2–3 thousand, which also bring profit in peacetime (this is the promise in the whole article - ekranoplans are not profitable, and army without war is not profitable - capitalism), it’s cheaper to organize a once-in-a-month monthly military training course for pilots (the flight and experience with a GA pilot are ten times more than with a military pilot) than maintaining a BTA fleet (EW containers are installed in a couple of hours).

                        For information, tropical hurricanes can disturb the lower layers of the stratosphere (up to 30 km), which is why weather radars are put on airplanes, and even with a side wind of 10 m / s, takeoff can not be done under not ideal conditions (the band is slightly shorter, the engine at + 35 C does not give out all thrust, etc.), in short, planes do not fly in bad weather either.

                        Where does it say that you need to finish off the VTA and the Airborne Forces? It was about the niche of small landing ships for ekranoplanes, as a cheap and independent replacement (the fleet for support is minimal - operational capabilities are higher).

                        Do not bear criticism - do not answer, or else answer questions such as: an ekranoplane is worse than a helicopter (because it can land on unprepared sites of 100 sq.m.) and an airplane (it does not take off for 10 km) and cannot replace both options at once bored ...

                        Also called a sectarian ...
                      2. 0
                        April 8 2020 22: 57
                        Where does it say that you need to finish off the VTA and the Airborne Forces?


                        And what you have to choose is VTA, Airborne Forces, fighter aircraft, or ekranoplanes. The budget is not rubber.
                        So the question arises - what is the interchangeability of ekranoplanes? What is there that cannot be done without them, or at least not done a little better than ekranoplans?
                        And it turns out that nothing - airplanes and helicopters can do anything that ekranoplanes are better, cheaper, and with less restrictions (land, mountains, etc.).
                        Well, the conclusion is that you have to buy planes and helicopters.
                        This is simple logic.
                        And the sectarians have a different logic - at any cost an ekranoplane, do not care if they are really needed or without them easier, no difference, you need an ekranoplan anyway. Look, in the thread below, the opponent suggested for the sake of ekranoplanes to dig multi-kilometer pools on the ground. In all seriousness.
                        Well, how do I think about you after that?
                      3. +1
                        April 8 2020 23: 50
                        So I wrote that everything is not so obvious, and there are things that he can do better within reasonable limits, as an example, amphibious assault forces: as a replacement for small amphibious assault ships due to better speed, while there is a helicopter gain in range, in front of BTA aircraft in the possibility of landing on water (the Airborne Forces simply cannot be thrown into the ocean), refueling afloat (ejecting a tank with a beacon, without needing to understand the tanker) and access to the coast, and before seaplanes in terms of economic and cargo characteristics during operation.

                        This is not a replacement for conventional aviation, but an addition to the navy.

                        In current conditions, if there is a need for a large number of small landing ships, the option may turn out to be more profitable (the aviation industry has large capacities and a tendency to execute orders on time, unlike the Russian marine industry, that the order will not be pulled or overpowered)
                  2. 0
                    April 8 2020 09: 59
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Even in the dimensions of the KM it is not possible to build such an ekranoplane, engines with a specific consumption of somewhere in 0,2 kg / kgf * h and a thrust of 12-15 thousand kgs are needed. This is unrealistic


                    You compare the incomparable - the heights of transport aircraft always give an advantage in air resistance compared to ekranoplanes, correspondingly lower fuel consumption and high speed.
                    Ekranoplanes have higher payloads with comparable power of the propulsion system, and fuel consumption at low altitudes is a priori higher.

                    But your logic is vicious in that, based on it, heavy transport helicopters are not needed - is there an IL-76?
                    However, there are quite parallel transport helicopters, transport planes and, respectively, ekranoplanes can occupy their niche - a transport component with a meager cost-based infrastructure based on water spaces (lakes, rivers, bays).

                    As well as combat platforms for supporting the littoral fleet or transport and landing ships for landing on unequipped coasts - due to the high reaction speed and good carrying capacity, they may well occupy their niche.

                    Even South Korea commissioned the WSH-500 passenger ekranoplan.


                    In the framework of the program of South Korea, over the past 5-7 years, 4 variants of the types of ekranoplanes have been experimentally investigated on flight samples:
                    HAENARAE X1, ARON-7, SEA RIDER, WSH-500.


                    three types of models showed a rather weak binding
                    to the screen (low security - the ARON-7 ekranoplane crashed on July 8, 2012), they were tested mainly like ordinary seaplanes. As a result, a variant of the WSH-500 type is adopted for commercial purposes.


                    https://sites.google.com/site/hoverwingwigcraft/curriculum-vitae

                    1. The aerodynamic design of the HW-20 (without VP) is close to ideal in aerodynamic quality and geared to the screen.

                    2. The low specific wing load (1,5-2 times less than the airplane) and high aerodynamic quality in flight allow reducing the electric power ratio of the EA to the level of 0,15 hp / kg and, due to this, guarantee class “A” (without flying off screen).

                    Base Model WHS-500 (November 2011)
                    Weight = 17,0 tons, engines = 2 x 1400 hp (diesel), pass. places = 47.
                    http://home.sinn.ru/~wew/Korea20.htm

                    1. 0
                      April 8 2020 15: 06
                      The South Korean ekranoplan is not certified for passenger traffic so far. And not just like that.
                      For the rest.
                      A simple question - what is better to spend 100 billion on - the revival of ekranoplanostroeniya and the construction of the lead ekranoplan in a series of (one) or the purchase of 50 Su-30SM, modernized for war at sea?
                      Or one transport ekranoplan against 15-20 brand new IL-76?
                      This is a very simple question.
                      1. 0
                        April 8 2020 15: 25
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        A simple question - what is better to spend 100 billion on - the revival of ekranoplanostroeniya and the construction of the lead ekranoplan in a series of (one) or the purchase of 50 Su-30SM, modernized for war at sea?


                        Well, in fact, there are no "simple questions" - it's not that simple.
                        Of course, developing one to the detriment of the aviation program is a mistake.
                        But to conduct research and development on ekranoplanes - it is necessary to continue.
                        Now I also see a "bias" in the old developments, but with the handling in the old models it was not good enough.
                        The ekranoplanes obviously need front-controlled aerodynamic panels, to control the pitch when making maneuvers on the course, an automatic altitude hold system, since a person is not able to manage to compensate for gusts and blows under the wing during maneuvers, you may need to think about some wing mechanization.
                        The existing "fuselage" schemes are not sufficiently stable during maneuvers and wind gusts.

                        Now I see no reason to delve into the technical part.
                        But it makes sense to work according to two or three promising schemes. Of course, start not with 500 tons of ocean, but with an average of 50-150 tons.

                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        The South Korean ekranoplan is not certified for passenger traffic so far.


                        I saw the filming of the Korean EP with passengers in commercial operation - I doubt that they would be allowed without a certificate of airworthiness.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 19: 25
      Do not smack nonsense, it hurts
  48. 0
    April 5 2020 17: 55
    Good and evidential article! Alas, some interesting inventions are unnecessary for various reasons .... request
    As I recall, ekranoplanes became a link in Ustinov’s strategy for an asymmetric answer - hence the aircraft carrier aircraft, VTOL, etc. Experience has shown that a lot of money has been spent, and the result is alas ... request
  49. 0
    April 5 2020 18: 11
    "And the task of society is to make sure that all this remains so. "Indeed, the technology and combat use of ekranoplanes, even at the peak of their" popularity ", raised doubts. There was not even talk about their construction in the near future, why drive a wave? And as always then, to arouse the admiration of the clerk-townsfolk.Neither the Canadian Mr. Timokhin, nor Kaptsov is the ultimate truth, but the sorosity really wants to become a row with the bulk of the "public".
    Further - as always with the professional all-crawler and guardian of the all-Russian Mr. Timokhin -
    "Today, both the Navy as a whole and the naval aviation have monstrous gaps in the most important areas. So, we do not produce either anti-submarine helicopters or anti-submarine aircraft. Few anti-submarine ships. One old crumbling aircraft carrier, which has nowhere to dock. in anti-mine forces, terrible terms of repair and modernization of ships, a disaster in naval submarine weapons, a dead end in the doctrines of the development of the fleet as a type of armed forces. Or, more simply, we have a lot of problems that are long overdue to finance as a priority. »Projects that require money to be redirected from solving urgent problems to technical projection should be choked in the bud.
    "In modern conditions, there is no need to hope for large injections of budget money in the coming years. It is strange that Mr. Timokhin does not understand such a simple truth. Then why cry and lament? To bite the leadership once again to the delight of clerk public figures? And, let me remind the townsfolk to note - a person who considers himself an expert in everything and about everything - from Vietnamese affairs - through ICE - light fighters - to the management of naval affairs, does not really understand anything and is not a professional. Russian "well-wishers" are throwing in, and he only adds liveliness in the form of "biting" those in power. the highest degree of self-satisfaction.
    1. +2
      April 5 2020 18: 58
      About the construction of them in the near future there was not even talk, why drive a wave?


      Then, that lobbyists continue to push this topic through the command of naval aviation and contrary to decisions of the command of the Navy.
    2. 0
      April 5 2020 19: 28
      Monsieur, the topic, or rather a scam, from ekranoplans was open.
      This is an officer. info from Army 15
    3. 0
      April 5 2020 20: 53
      You forgot that Timokhin caught YOU on a nonsense
      1. -3
        April 6 2020 00: 36
        Maximushka! This is you, my dear, confused a little. It was me who caught Mr. Timokhin in lies. He deceived you very well. you said with all your might that this mister is an honored naval officer. And the honored one himself stood like an Ilf-Petrovsky angel with downcast eyes and ... told you that it was you who called him names, but he himself never said that he was an officer, especially a naval one. Was it? It was on the Internet everyone remembers ... I can kindly tell you about you, so to speak, a psychological portrait. You most likely had something to do with the fleet, went into the reserve in the ranks of small the world is terribly offended and angered, that's why you speak at VO, and not in really serious publications. And not everything is going smoothly with invention either ... probably mostly "black triangles", but the nerves of that, therefore, it is impossible to fight for our own ... But in everything, as is customary in Russia, the power, stripes are to blame, and we are all generals in a crowd. .. I sincerely sympathize with you.
        1. +1
          April 6 2020 04: 44
          Leonidlo, Timokhin’s facts on YOU were given. From you only a dumb screech and nonsense.
          Speaking of me, YOU are also bubbling out of a puddle. Acc. colors
          1. -1
            April 6 2020 19: 57
            Timokhin's defense is a sacred affair for a claquera. But you can't get a word out of a song, can you, dear and dear Maksimushka! ... Thank you, your couple gave me many opportunities to laugh and brighten up a well-deserved retirement vacation. maksimushka, for my long - long years of service as a sovereign man, I had to have many, many different people under command and control. Among other things, there were "maximushki" and "timokhins", balabols and talkers, omniscient ignoramuses and obsessive losers. In my conversation with you, I remembered ... I laughed a lot from you. Thank you dearest.
            1. -1
              April 7 2020 06: 11
              Goluba Leonidlo, you were mistaken with the address.
              I do not digest an audience like YOU.
              By the way with the facts at YOU how? How is it usually liquid?
              1. -2
                April 7 2020 20: 39
                Maximushka! With the facts, you are thin - I just clearly and correctly list the "achievements" and proposals of your dear friend. It was he who set you up, calling himself an official, and then admitting otherwise, these are facts from his biography in his dubbing, these are his proposals. Remember Maximushka my golden rule "it's better to lose with a smart than find with a silly." Your pension is not large, your apartment is so-so, and therefore there is such anger at people who have taken place ... My advice to you is to master a worthy profession, well, there will be a car mechanic, taxi driver, straightener, painter, finally, you will have extra earnings, and you will take time with useful work ... Good luck, dear, in your endeavors!
                1. 0
                  April 7 2020 21: 32
                  It was he who set you up, calling himself an officer


                  Is this when I did this? Can I link to the comment?
                  1. -2
                    April 8 2020 05: 04
                    Mr Timokhin's anemia? Well, it's clear, then get treatment. Or write proudly - I’m a real officer, preferably a "marine".
                    1. -1
                      April 8 2020 15: 10
                      No, I never lied to myself. To nobody.
                      It was you, being a psychiatric patient, who invented this nonsense and began your "struggle" with the Military Review.
                      Because it is necessary to consult a doctor in time, LeonidL, then mania will not pursue you, and enemies around the corner will not imagine.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. -1
                        April 8 2020 18: 43
                        You are sick, Leonid L.
                      3. -1
                        April 13 2020 19: 56
                        You are boring and boring, Mr. Timokhin, my friend. Are you better off than repeating a hackneyed record, would you tell the public about your achievements in jumping, running, bodybuilding, where does such vast knowledge give you advice from, who are these well-wishers, where does such aplomb and omniscience come from? And you are all about me and about me ... But I am just the truth about you uterus. only loving, dearly, carefully ... You are an amateur, not a professional and a graphomaniac. Admit it will be easier.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
  50. -1
    April 5 2020 18: 45
    A detailed convincing article that seems to cover the topic of using ekranoplanes in the military / transport / search and rescue areas. But what if .. the "specific" niche of the ekranoplan / ekranolet is civil sea transportation according to the seaport - seaport scheme, like a ferry? I remember that the Kerch railway ferry "Crimea - Caucasus" operated in Soviet times. The train carriages were uncoupled, loaded onto a ferry, transported by sea across the strait, connected there again, and the train moved on. It is not a quick business, not easy and unsafe - to load the wagons, properly secure them and transport a load of such weight; and in a storm, even a weak one, it is completely impossible. And all this for the sake of 5 kilometers! The ekranoplan could cover distances of several hundred kilometers between seaports that have passenger terminals. An ekranoplane could provide a much higher level of comfort (which is important for passenger commercial vehicles); it would save passengers considerable time on the way from / to the airport. Well, yes, the infrastructure: as the author rightly noted, for the base site of ekranoplanes, almost everything is required as for the airport, EXCEPT the runway. And the runway, by the way, complete with a platform, distant parking lots and taxiways is a large part of the airport construction area and a significant (comparable to a terminal) part of its cost. It is not at all cheap - to level such an area, make structurally correct preparation of high-quality concrete, create an even high-quality coating and equip it with everything you need, from special equipment to parking lights. All this is not needed at all in the aquaport.
  51. +4
    April 5 2020 19: 06
    Quote: Doccor18
    In my opinion, ekranoplans as weapons are too expensive. But to use them as rescuers, tankers, reconnaissance, warfare and civilian passenger transport would be very reasonable. It is a pity that it is not used.

    As a rescuer it is quite difficult to use. He can land when he's nervous, and he can, but he can take off - it's a very big doubt. How's the gas station? If it’s ekranoplanes, then it’s quite possible that it can. It all depends on where to refuel and at what distance from the base. Intelligence and electronic warfare? Intelligence is very doubtful. Using a giant device that can be seen from hundreds of miles away is not the best option. Electronic warfare? Honestly, I don't know.

    How's the passenger? It all depends on what the ticket price will cost. Although it is unlikely that it (the ticket) will cost the amount that thousands of passengers would agree to pay. It's like the same supersonic passenger plane. The price of a ticket for a transatlantic flight on a Concorde was such that the Concorde did not fly at full capacity.
    1. -1
      April 6 2020 11: 41
      Quote: Old26
      Using a giant device that can be seen from hundreds of miles away is not the best option. Electronic warfare? Honestly, I don't know.


      And who can detect it over the horizon? Only air-based assets - for example, patrol aircraft. At the same time, nothing prevents the installation of air defense electronic warfare systems on the ekranoplan platform, which will reduce the likelihood of detection/damage to a minimum.
      The component base already exists and is being modified to suit the specifics of the carrier.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 18: 19
        Have you realized what nonsense you wrote?
        See what EKB is
  52. +2
    April 5 2020 19: 23
    An ekranoplan is first and foremost a carrier. Each medium has its own advantages and disadvantages. In the article, the author considered only the disadvantages. Let's then consider the advantages. For example, very quickly move to a given area, land on the water and conduct electronic reconnaissance, then just as quickly move to another area. In addition, such an ekranoplan can carry several helicopter-type anti-submarine UAVs. It will be quite difficult for both aviation and ships to complete such a task. The use of ekranoplanes is also possible in the civilian sphere. The ekranoplan can easily navigate the frozen northern rivers very quickly. In addition, an ekranoplan is quite capable of making stops in relatively small populated areas, but aviation cannot afford this. Of course, in order for ekranoplanes to become safer, more advanced engines and more advanced avionics will be required, this is a non-controversial fact that Alekseev spoke about.
  53. exo
    0
    April 5 2020 20: 02
    I like ekranoplanes, but I agree. And ten domestic engines, with their small resources, are a pain to change.
  54. +3
    April 5 2020 20: 25
    Quote: grandfather_Kostya
    Hydrofoil ships are not exotic

    And exotic too. I recall with enthusiasm a trip from the center of Leningrad (the 70s) to Peterhof on Meteor in sunny weather and a wave of up to 1 m. And I could get bored in a banal train.

    Me too, and also in the early 80s. The delight was indescribable. But back to St. Petersburg - already by train...

    Quote: TOR2
    An ekranoplan is first and foremost a carrier. Each medium has its own advantages and disadvantages. In the article, the author considered only the disadvantages. Let's then consider the advantages

    Let's take a look, Yuri

    Quote: TOR2
    For example, very quickly move to a given area, land on the water and conduct electronic reconnaissance, then just as quickly move to another area

    Everyone talks about the only advantage compared to displacement ships - speed. And it is right. Having a cruising speed of 430-500 km/h compared to a speed of at least 50 km/h is an undeniable advantage. But that's where the advantages end. At one gas station the range of the same KM is 1500 km, while that of Lun is 2000 km. That is, the combat radius will be a maximum of 600-800 km.
    For a displacement ship it will be much larger. Even the same "Karakurt" or "Buyan-M" with a slightly larger displacement than the same KM or "Lunya" have a take-off range of 2500 miles. And this is approximately 4600 km. Even the radius will be 2300 versus 600-800 for ekranoplanes. Ships of the frigate and destroyer class have even more.

    He will sit on the water if the excitement allows. And it will take off if the excitement also allows. For a conventional NK this is not a critical parameter. The NK will be able to move and perform its task with much greater excitement...

    Quote: TOR2
    In addition, such an ekranoplan can carry several helicopter-type anti-submarine UAVs. It will be quite difficult for both aviation and ships to complete such a task.

    In fact, the fuselages of the airborne aircraft that existed before were of aircraft type. These helicopter-type UAVs will have to be located in the internal compartments and rise only at zero speed of the aircraft when it is on the water. The diameter of the fuselage imposes a limitation on the size of the main rotor of a helicopter UAV. In addition, how many of them can the ES carry and how to control them.
    In aviation, it will be easier to perform such a task due to the stationary nature of the UAV control unit and the possibility of communication with it. I don't think it will be easy to do this on the EP. And it’s even easier for the courts.

    Quote: TOR2
    The use of ekranoplanes is also possible in the civilian sphere. An ekranoplan can easily navigate the frozen northern rivers very quickly. In addition, an ekranoplan is quite capable of making stops in relatively small populated areas, but aviation cannot afford this. Of course, in order for ekranoplanes to become safer, more advanced engines and more advanced avionics will be required, this is a non-controversial fact that Alekseev spoke about.

    Here I can probably partially agree with you. But only if these are not ekranoplanes, which will be tied to the water surface, but ekranoplanes. About a year ago there was information that Yakutia might purchase such machines. I don’t remember exactly what they are called, but it seems “Burevestnik-25”. This is a universal vehicle that can be used as a displacement boat, as a glider, as a snowmobile, as a ground effect vehicle and as an airplane. The screen effect is created by a fairly large wing, and this unit itself is more reminiscent of a biplane, where the ekranoplane wing is located at the bottom, and the airplane wing at the top. But this entire universal unit takes 6 or 8 people and half a ton of cargo on board the EMNIP. The speed of the EMNIP is about 350 km/h, the range is up to 500-600 km.
    This kind of “unit” will still have its niche in the North. As a civilian. But even then, all performance characteristics that are announced must be confirmed by operation...
  55. +1
    April 5 2020 21: 08
    Because these cars are undervalued today.
    This happens...
    The average person does not understand the full potential.
    But, mark my words, they will return to these machines. And very soon...
    The main thing is that a smart thought finally comes to the enemy, and not later!...
    1. +1
      April 5 2020 21: 28
      Nope, this technique is not applicable, it does not give anything, no advantages.
      1. Aag
        +1
        April 5 2020 22: 47
        Well, this is some kind of EPphobia!
      2. +1
        April 6 2020 11: 37
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Nope, this technique is not applicable, it does not give anything, no advantages.


        Dear Alexander.
        You are comparing incomparable things in the article.
        Take as a basis a prototype of a transport-landing ekranoplan, adapted for six Moskit anti-ship missile launchers.
        It’s like adapting a launcher with anti-ship missiles to a transport aircraft - the result will be the same - poor performance.
        If you develop an ekranoplan body for the internal placement of a combat load, the results in terms of range, speed, and ESR will be much better.
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 12: 29
          This design will still lose to airplanes, and it doesn’t exist anymore. So why invest in an ekranoplan?
          1. 0
            April 6 2020 12: 44
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            This design will still lose to airplanes, and it doesn’t exist anymore. So why invest in an ekranoplan?


            It depends on what he loses?
            In range and speed - yes.
            The price includes one carrier of 6 anti-ship missiles in the "Orlyonka" size (with the redesign of the body for internal placement of the launcher) in terms of carrying capacity it replaces 2 pieces of Tu-22M3M, while at the same time the price of one Tu-22M3 is the same as 2-2,5 Orlyonka.
            Orlyonok can be based from any bay/lake/river of sufficient size for take-off - to the same reserve hydroaviation bases - Tu-22M3M bases will be disabled in the first hours of the conflict.
            Tu-22M3 base - billions of rubles. The base of the ekranoplan is tens of millions of rubles.

            How do you like this “economic” effect of two different platforms?

            Please note - I do not argue that the Tu-22M3M is a significantly more effective platform - but its vulnerability is comparable to an ekranoplane under the same air defense conditions.

            I believe that both carriers, aviation and ekranoplane, have a right to exist. The concepts of modern media on screen effect require careful study and analysis.
    2. -1
      April 6 2020 09: 57
      Airplanes became popular within 10 years. Helicopters as soon as aviation left unpaved airfields, but also very quickly. How many more years do we have to wait for screen coffins before someone figures out where to use them?
  56. 0
    April 5 2020 21: 38
    Besides that. Why revive?
    I will answer. Then, for the thinking to work and develop.
    After all, the construction of such units leads to the creation of related activities. Which pull related organizations along with them. Or not?!..
    We can talk for a long time on this topic. Whether it is necessary?..
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 00: 00
      There is not enough health and resources for everything. You should choose several main areas and concentrate your efforts there. If some commercial structures want to develop, then go ahead.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 19: 57
        How is this not enough?! I don't even want to listen to such nonsense. Is it smart enough to withdraw billions of dollars from the state? But don’t do R&D?!...
        1. 0
          April 9 2020 20: 19
          Don't confuse your pocket with the state's!
          1. +1
            April 9 2020 21: 35
            That's it, buddy!

            I am absolutely not a fan of tangling pockets. And wrong prioritization!..
  57. +1
    April 5 2020 22: 09
    1. Any carrier carries out an attack from external target designation.
    2. The flight range of the missile system when launched at a speed of 500 km/h is greater than at a speed of 50 km/h.
    3. The missile launchers are now different (compactness - number of missiles).
    4. The time to reach the launch position and leave the position is an order of magnitude less than that of the NK.
    5. A flock of aircraft can remain in the duty zone (on the surface) for a long time.
    6. The anti-submarine capabilities of the EP have not been disclosed..
    7. Avionics are different now (the role of the pilot), and maybe and unmanned.
    8. EP no matter what flat surface you fly over.
    9. Turboprop engines provide efficiency.
    10. Composite materials make the structure lighter, are not subject to corrosion, and reduce ESR.
    11. Designing with stealth technology reduces the ESR.
    12. Combat radius m.b. increased when refueling from the tanker's EP.
    1. Aag
      +1
      April 5 2020 22: 54
      How the author stirred up the collective mind!
      If this continues, the VO community will not only formulate a concept for using electronic signatures, but also issue technical specifications!
    2. 0
      April 6 2020 09: 56
      Water is the only flat surface on earth. And there is a lot of garbage floating around.

      Turboprop engines provide efficiency.


      On airplanes too.

      Composite materials make the structure lighter, are not subject to corrosion, and reduce ESR.


      On airplanes too.

      Combat radius m.b. increased when refueling from the tanker's EP.


      Air or something? Airplanes can do this, but I’ll see how the process of refueling from a ship in a combat zone will work. You still need to be friends with your head.

      Designing with stealth technology reduces the EPR.


      Can you imagine what kind of trail he will have? I think it will be visible from space.
      1. +1
        April 6 2020 11: 30
        Quote: EvilLion

        Air or something? Airplanes can do this, but I’ll see how the process of refueling from a ship in a combat zone will work. You still need to be friends with your head.


        The same way seaplane bases operated during WWII
        1. -1
          April 6 2020 11: 57
          Now the question is, what is the situation with seaplanes in the world now? The correct answer is no way, piece fire extinguishing machines.

          The seaplane base is not a tanker, which should increase its range.
      2. +1
        April 6 2020 20: 50
        Not airborne, head. Or is it difficult for you to understand that refueling can take place on the surface? And where have you seen refueling in a combat zone? Maybe in a drink shop? What trace will be visible from space?
      3. +1
        April 9 2020 21: 57
        The plane works on the principle of throwing a stone. EP, As Nikolai Aleksandrovich wisely noted, can be in a displacement position in its position for quite a long time. Without wasting much fuel (not counting the operation of generators) to ensure communications, and, more or less, the vital activity of the crew. What kind of aircraft can work like that? How many days can he be in the air continuously to perform the same tasks?
    3. +1
      April 6 2020 12: 16
      1. No, not always. Any reconnaissance-strike group provides itself with a command center.
      2. Numbers please. So far, serious advantages have been achieved only by launching missiles from an airplane, at speeds of around 500 km/h and with a reserve altitude for the missile to gain speed in gliding.
      3. Airplanes, all other things being equal, are better and cheaper than ekranoplans
      4. And many times worse than airplanes
      5. No, it can’t. Autonomy is no more than 5 days, a storm will break them, they have nothing to shoot down an aerial reconnaissance aircraft, that is, they cannot disrupt their detection by fire.
      6. Zero.
      7. Like an airplane
      8. No, waves of 4 points will pin them to the shore, and NK can use weapons in such waves. The waves are also sideways for planes.
      9. And they will critically reduce the speed in the attack - comparable to the Su-34
      10. This is even more true for airplanes.
      11. This is even more true for airplanes.
      12. Well, wonderful - now we must predict the future course of military operations so much that in areas where ekranoplanes may theoretically be needed, tankers for them must be deployed in advance. This is for the doctors, I’m not a doctor, I can’t help.
      On the other hand, why aren’t you satisfied with an attack aircraft with in-flight refueling?
      1. +1
        April 6 2020 13: 36
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No not always. Any reconnaissance-strike group provides itself with a command center

        Additional exploration is possible. Preliminary target designations usually come from other sources - the same patrol aircraft.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Airplanes, all other things being equal, are better and cheaper than ekranoplans

        Again, according to some criteria - speed, efficiency, all-weather capability (slightly better), losing in the price of basing, carrying capacity, flight profile (detection range).

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Airplanes, all other things being equal, are better and cheaper than ekranoplans

        Everything is exactly the opposite.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They have nothing to shoot down an air reconnaissance aircraft with, that is, they cannot disrupt their detection by fire.

        What prevents you from installing a RAM-type self-defense complex and medium-range V-V missiles and a guidance complex on the ekranoplan?

        Technically the issue has been resolved. All that remains is to choose the most successful and balanced solution.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No, waves of 4 points will pin them to the shore, and NK can use weapons in such waves. The waves are also sideways for planes.

        This is not a correct hypothesis - an ekranoplan of the Orlyonok type has the ability to TAKE OFF in waves of up to 2 points - and in operating mode the wave height is also “sideways”.
        Perhaps when putting forward your hypothesis, you do not take into account bays, rivers, and lakes suitable for basing both ekranoplanes and seaplanes. Yes, dig a two-kilometer ditch, line it with geotextile and fill it with water - that’s the temporary-constant GDP for an ekranoplan anywhere on land.
        Rather, wind strength greater than a certain level will not allow the ekranoplan to be operated at low altitude.
        However, a crosswind of a certain strength can pin “all-weather” tactical aircraft to the airfield or visibility less than 300 meters.

        Detecting an ekranoplan on a low-altitude flight profile and a Su-30 on a low-altitude flight profile is possible at a comparable distance for a group of non-aircraft carriers.
        In terms of its carrying capacity, the ekranoplan can be equipped with a carrier of disposable UAVs for additional target reconnaissance - and can carry out over-the-horizon launches of anti-ship missiles without entering the air defense zone.

        But we argue in vain - due to climatic conditions - for example, winter, neither in the Pacific nor in the northern fleets, ekranoplanes will not be able to function effectively due to icing - their prerogative is warm southern waters.
        And as a result, ekranoplanes are more likely to be useful to the Chinese than to the Russian Navy.
        1. -1
          April 6 2020 14: 44
          Everything is exactly the opposite.


          If reality does not correlate with delusion, so much the worse for reality.
        2. 0
          April 7 2020 17: 34
          Yes, dig a two-kilometer ditch, line it with geotextile and fill it with water - that’s the temporary-constant GDP for an ekranoplan anywhere on land.




          I never thought that someone would seriously suggest something like this
          1. +1
            April 8 2020 10: 39
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            I never thought that someone would seriously suggest something like this


            You probably don’t look at maps of hydrological (underground) water reserves - for example, in the Urals, an underground lake larger than Lake Baikal - boreholes made 15-20 years ago - still provide a constant flow of water without pumps.
            It’s probably a secret for you that most sand quarries self-fill with groundwater - that is, having a resource in the form of excavation of building material from the quarry - sand, we get a reservoir limited by the size of the deposits and the need for its extraction.

            A runway is a complex and expensive engineering structure and soil sampling is only the beginning of the work; by the way, the laying of airfield pavement is carried out at the BOTTOM OF THE CAREER according to the design documentation - since the total depth of laying airfield pavement, depending on the class of the runway, reaches 3,5 - 5 m .






            which then needs to be lined with geomaterial, filled with a substrate, crushed stone of a certain strength, several layers of pre-coating, concreting, cutting expansion joints, storm drainage, etc.
            A runway 3000 - 3500 m long is like a four-lane highway with a length of 70 km.

            This strains budgets so much that in fact runways in our country are piecemeal objects.

            For the price of 1 class "A" runway, you can build two dozen artificial hydroports... if the climate allowed :))
            1. 0
              April 8 2020 15: 12
              Airfields for airplanes have already been set up everywhere, and it’s much easier to equip a temporary one - see the video in the article.
              So I'm for airplanes.
              1. +1
                April 8 2020 15: 32
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Airfields for airplanes are already set up everywhere,


                Of these, there are not many that are operational; a lot of them are abandoned, without maintenance, the strip quickly falls into disrepair.
                We don't have many Class A lanes.
                Not to mention the USA, where there is a huge network of airfields and private airstrips and tactical aviation can be based on a wide network of highways.
                We recently heard that they want to build about 70 runways, but the class was not specified, a number that is hard to believe - now there are fewer competent organizations left than there are fingers on a hand.
              2. 0
                April 8 2020 15: 39
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                So I'm for airplanes.


                I'm also for airplanes.
                But we live in a water world


                Ekranoplanes are perfect for commercial operation in island states and countries with large coastlines, as a cheaper alternative to aviation.
                But the current level of development of ekranoplanes is not even the aviation of the 30s.
                1. 0
                  April 8 2020 20: 51
                  laughing
                  But we live in a water world

                  laughing laughing
                  And what percentage of humanity lives IN WATER?
                  laughing
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2020 11: 02
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    And what percentage of humanity lives IN WATER?


                    Water is a way of communication.
                    Islands and coastlines are excellent for using ekranoplanes.
                    There are an estimated 500000 islands in the waters, of which 10000 are inhabited - this is a huge market for inexpensive coastal communication.
                    Some of the islands are not inhabited due to unfavorable climatic conditions, some due to their small size and remoteness.
                    100 most populated islands


                    The trend over the last 20-25 years has been to buy an island and build a hotel or recreational infrastructure on it.
                    There are many free small islands in favorable climatic regions: the Caribbean, the islands of Oceania.
                    It is not cost-effective to build a runway on most small islands.
                    Surface ships - the transportation time from the base island, which has an airport hub for receiving international flights, is too long - there are few people willing to fly 9-10 hours to Oceania, and then take another 10 hours by ship to a remote island.
                    The electric vehicle will cover the same distance at a speed of up to 300 km/h in 1,5-2 hours.
                    That is, in my understanding, the ekranoplan will increase the radius of development of island infrastructure for island tourism by 500-700 km from the base airport hub.
                    For the development of such island infrastructure, electric vehicles with a passenger capacity of 40 to 60 people with luggage, a speed of up to 300 km/h and a range of 1000-1500 km are suitable (that is, with a range of 500-750 km, taking into account the fact that at the final point of the route it will cost without refueling and moor to the pier).
                    The Koreans with their WSH-500 very accurately calculated the commercial niche of ekranoplanes

                    It was not for nothing that the Koreans chose diesel propulsion systems - a good attempt to make a commercial ekranoplan with low operating costs.

                    Of course, with the development of infrastructure, it will be necessary to increase passenger capacity in the distant future.

                    As for the military use of EP, I agree that ekranoplanes of the classical fuselage design do not have enough advantages and flexibility for use in our northern and Far Eastern seas.
                    Let's just say that the prospect of developing sea- and land-based anti-ship ballistic missiles based on those currently in service seems to me much more promising.
                    It is cheaper to improve guidance systems - ballistic anti-ship missiles, which will provide protection at long range.
      2. 0
        April 6 2020 21: 39
        Timokhin, there is no need to be rude if something does not fit into the dogma, otherwise respect for the author’s work disappears.
        But if tomorrow the Americans, based on the technologies of the rotating mechanisms and control of their tiltrotor, create a naval version of the ep-type attack and plane ship, I would not be surprised. And the rest is details: fiberglass hull, additional reconnaissance from a UAV, refueling on the surface from a similar tanker or seaplane, air defense, aircraft (the capabilities should be no worse than those of the Il-38 with the Ka-29). About efficiency. This is the first thing that prompted Alekseev to start developing the episode. Flying on the screen is significantly more economical than flying a regular aircraft.
        1. -1
          April 7 2020 12: 44
          None of your statements pass the reality test, can't you see it?
          So, once again - what new opportunities does the ekranoplan provide? Don’t offer false economy, the example of the same Orlyonok shows everything well..
        2. +1
          April 8 2020 09: 01
          Are YOU able to justify this with numbers?
  58. +2
    April 5 2020 22: 30
    The story with ekranoplanes is somewhat reminiscent of the story with coaxial helicopters - only in the USSR, with powerful state support, was it possible to solve numerous scientific and technical problems and “produce” samples suitable for practical use. And, by the way, no, no, and “religious wars” break out, where supporters of helicopters of the “classical” design “justify” the “uselessness” of coaxials. Now on to the author's theses.
    Comparing the performance characteristics of an aircraft and an ekranoplan is a thankless task. It's the same as with a helicopter. There is no data on heavy ekranoplanes, but even the light “Ivolga” “on the screen” has an aerodynamic quality of 25, An-2 - 10 (with the same speed and passenger capacity, but with a 2 times more powerful engine), passenger airliners - about 18. There is also nothing to oppose to the non-aerodrome based ekranoplanes. The plane, of course, can take off and land from ice platforms. But - smooth and 3 kilometers long. The ceiling of the ekranoplan can reach 4000m (though you will have to forget about efficiency in this case), so it can easily “cross” all sorts of “gulls”. The seaworthiness of the Lun ekranoplanes is higher than that of the Be-200 and Be-12 seaplanes.
    The “uselessness of ekranoplanes” is justified in exactly the same way as the “uselessness of the fleet” in general - all its tasks in theaters of interest are more effectively solved by aviation and ground-based precision weapons. The results of Kuzi’s “Syrian campaign” indicate the same thing. And finally, without “achieving supremacy at sea and in the air,” any large surface, submarine or air ship is nothing more than a convenient target.
    The author correctly noted "a dead end in the doctrines of the development of the fleet as a branch of the armed forces." But how, without getting out of this impasse, can one decide what should be “funded as a priority.”?
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 09: 51
      The plot with coaxial helicopters is extremely simple and boring. There are no bad ones, and they understood the advantages of a symmetrical lifting system, the coaxial one is not the only one here, the Americans have a company called Kaman, which makes synchropters, they are not among the leaders, but they have some model for 200+ copies. Another thing is that the vast majority of helicopters are needed to take off vertically once and then land once, flying from point A to point B. The classical scheme in this case gives less resistance, and it’s simpler, i.e. the helicopter itself cheaper. At the same time, you need to understand that a helicopter is inferior to an airplane as a class, simply in everything. But he has a killer feature in the ability to hover and take off vertically. The aircraft has a very conditional analogue, only based on small airfields, well, small ones, half a kilometer of free runway for the take-off run and a safe zone after it. The ekranoplan simply does not have any killer features against the aircraft.

      Well, coaxial helicopters achieved their first successes only in the 70s, when the Ka-27 and Ka-26 appeared, the latter a massive thing. The Mi-8 already existed then. At the same time, the success of the same Ka-52 just hints that the scheme is promising.
  59. 0
    April 5 2020 22: 32
    Mammoths are extinct and elephants are being slaughtered. So ekranoplanes became extinct (along with the great USSR) for all their splendor and power. Let's say thank you to those who created them! And let's move forward. And there is a huge Cosmos, which should again become ours, even if not all of it.
    1. +1
      April 6 2020 09: 43
      It was in the USSR, so you have to masturbate to it. Not otherwise.
      1. +1
        April 6 2020 09: 45
        You have a clinical case, EvilLion.
        1. -1
          April 6 2020 11: 59
          What? Is it that I understand that the USSR built a lot of unnecessary nonsense? Well, the USA, for example, is doing this now. While there is a willingness to pour trillions into the military-industrial complex, there is no urgent desire to ask about the return on them. Even the MiG-29, in fact, was not really needed, only for departmental egoism and export to all sorts of Arabs, who, no matter what, will be cheated and disgraced.
          1. 0
            April 6 2020 13: 15
            I'm not talking about the essence of the question, about your sexual delights.
            1. -1
              April 6 2020 14: 47
              Sorry, but it’s not me who is going crazy about ekranoplanes, which cost a lot of Soviet rubles, or aircraft-carrying cruisers with the Yak-38, which had approximately zero combat value. I would understand “Buran”, because the idea is good and even necessary, because it was not only done by us, but a similar project ultimately did not justify itself, and there is no reason to believe that ours would have performed better.
              1. 0
                April 6 2020 14: 56
                I agree, EvilLion.
                It’s a pity that “Buran” did not allow Lozino-Lozinsky’s “Spiral” to develop.

                But the quick Americans did not miss their chance with the drone.
          2. 0
            April 6 2020 14: 26
            In the USSR, ekranoplanes began to be installed immediately after Ustinov’s death. If it had not collapsed, then by the year 93 the shop would have been officially closed.
            And so she covered herself in secret order.
  60. +1
    April 5 2020 22: 54
    remember about 75% of non-combat losses.

    It should be noted that the ekranoplanes were experimental, the latest models, and did not go into production, all your reasoning is just speculation.
    How many pieces of equipment accepted for production into the civilian series or into service have had an accident during their trial operation precisely in order to find out their strengths and weaknesses.
    Today, both the Navy as a whole and naval aviation have monstrous gaps in the most important areas. Thus, we do not produce either anti-submarine helicopters or anti-submarine aircraft. Few anti-submarine ships. One old, crumbling aircraft carrier that has nowhere to dock yet. Collapse in mine countermeasures forces, terrible repair and modernization times for ships, a disaster in naval underwater weapons, a dead end in the doctrines of the development of the fleet as a branch of the armed forces. Or, more simply, we have a lot of problems that are long overdue for priority funding.

    In your list, all positions could be replaced by the doctrine of ekranoplan development
    The development of the economy must be financed as a priority; it is this financing that makes it possible to develop defense and offensive systems.
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 12: 23
      Experienced technology, which reached the series, also promised an increase in functionality. That is, exactly what screen coffins do not provide for reasons that are completely understandable to any person who knows physics.
  61. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      April 6 2020 19: 08
      This is due to the fact that in our area the cars are new, their capabilities are not really explored. I’m not speaking for aircraft carriers now.
      People are repelled by several samples. For some reason, without thinking that the twenty-first century is just around the corner. And as it were, technology and design.... It went ahead for a minute...
      I’m not from the sect of “witnesses of ekranoplanes,” but for some reason I’m sure that these are the right machines. And it’s too early to bury them.
  62. 0
    April 6 2020 00: 30
    With the start of missile defense, ekranoplanes - airborne forces should have gone after the cavalry. nothing!!! They still exist.
    1. -1
      April 6 2020 12: 24
      No one is stopping you from using the Airborne Forces as quick reaction troops; it’s not a fact that you’ll have to jump, but air transportability is critical.
  63. 0
    April 6 2020 08: 03
    1. Nuclear power. Small crew with high automation, high autonomy for at least a month. Speeds 200-300 knots.
    2. Only short-range air defense in the sense of its own, built-in.
    3. Radio horizon due to the UAV as a “flying mast”.
    4. Modular weapons for anti-aircraft functions (beacons are cheap, low noise for attacked submarines), strike functions (here you can even remember small anti-ship missiles for a denser salvo), AWACS with the same UAVs.
    5. Assume 400 tons with a payload of 30%. It's a terrible thing. And at such speeds you can try aviation missiles from a modular drum.
    1. -1
      April 6 2020 09: 42
      There is no need to collect uranium after an accident. So you can put a reactor on an airplane, there have been projects.
      1. 0
        April 6 2020 10: 50
        Well, make the compartment as a seized segment and Alga. Accident - shot, flooded. Repair - unplugged the connectors and took them out. The fire was filled with polyurethane and... well, I guess I got it again.
        1. 0
          April 6 2020 12: 19
          Why are you not satisfied with a nuclear-powered multi-mode aircraft in this case? At least he has less risk of an accident and can fly above the ground.
          1. 0
            April 6 2020 13: 22
            Security. Payload. internal volumes.
            1. 0
              April 6 2020 14: 48
              Do you know that internal volumes require external walls? And the weight of an ekranoplan cannot in any way be less than the weight of an airplane due to the large additional costs. loads
              1. +1
                April 7 2020 02: 31
                Do I really mind? But as for me, the ekranoplan in the future (and the USSR embodied this perspective) is more effective in terms of the total weight/useful weight ratio. The plane is always great, but it is a target for air defense. And ekranoplanes with automatic control systems are a strategic maneuver with forces at almost aviation speeds. What about the walls? What's wrong with them? Let them be, otherwise without them there will really be trouble with the internal volume.
            2. 0
              April 6 2020 18: 29
              Well, the airplane does it all better.
  64. 0
    April 6 2020 08: 55
    Research and development completed. The union was also buried as ineffective. There is no need to live with such technologies. Anyway, effective managers will match the savings...
  65. -1
    April 6 2020 09: 41
    In general, the efficiency of an aircraft is determined by:
    1) Rarefaction of the atmosphere at high altitudes.
    2) Sparse traffic flow at high altitudes. Yes, it’s crowded there now by airplane standards, and all sorts of Tu-334s that don’t hold the most profitable flights are driven off them, but these are airplane standards, so that the distance between the machines is measured in tens of kilometers. The result, collisions, is an exceptional phenomenon.

    That is, everything is exactly the opposite of the concept of a screen coffin.
  66. +1
    April 6 2020 10: 56
    Lots of letters.
    It was enough to say: operation was limited by weather conditions - wind force and waves.

    That is, the ekranoplan as a weapons platform is much more dependent on weather conditions than surface ships or aircraft. With a certain wind force, keeping the ekranoplan at a marching altitude becomes problematic. Having a fairly large tail area, it is significantly exposed to wind - and this is its main problem.

    Advantages of ekranoplanes:
    The first and main one is that as a weapons platform it can carry a larger combat load than aircraft platforms.

    The second advantage of ekranoplanes is a fairly short reaction time (entering a given square, patrolling, using weapons) compared to surface ships.

    Calculations with visibility do not stand up to criticism - the Su-30SM and other airborne platforms, anti-ship missiles can only be carried on an external sling, while the ESR increases significantly.

    The ekranoplan, due to its low-profile flight, can conduct over-the-horizon firing at external target designation (for example, from UAVs, low-orbit satellites, etc.) without being detected, and its anti-ship missile ammunition is the same as that of a Su-30SM squadron or two Tu-22M3M.

    That is, ekranoplanes obviously will not become the main carriers of anti-ship missiles, but in trial operation it would be worthwhile to work out the basic methods of combat use.

    The main problem of the Project 903 ekranoplan as a combat platform was

    an attempt to adapt the transport fuselage (hull) of an ekranoplane to accommodate fairly heavy and large anti-ship missiles 3M-80 “Moskit”. What entailed: high drag, high “top weight”.

    Creating an ekranoplane with a hangar and an internal drum-type launcher arrangement would result in much better range and speed characteristics.

    The authors, respected Oleg Kaptsov and Alexander Timokhin, not being specialists, make not entirely correct conclusions based on the experimental design of the Pr 903, made on the basis of ... a “transport-landing” ekranoplan.

    Let's imagine that external launchers with anti-ship missiles were attached to the transport Il-76 and we get a loss of speed, range, difficulty in controlling and landing, etc.

    A specialized carrier with internal placement of anti-ship missile launchers will have significantly higher performance and noble aerodynamic shapes.
    Even the arrangement of the same volume of the 903 herringbone case with 3 containers on each side will give a better result.
    A deeply redesigned project with new engines, a modified launcher layout, possibly with a catamaran-type hull, will be many times more effective in terms of carrying capacity and range.
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 12: 21

      A specialized carrier with internal placement of anti-ship missile launchers will have significantly higher performance and noble aerodynamic shapes.
      Even the arrangement of the same volume of the 903 herringbone case with 3 containers on each side will give a better result.
      A deeply redesigned project with new engines, a modified launcher layout, possibly with a catamaran-type hull, will be many times more effective in terms of carrying capacity and range.


      Now let’s compare it with the Su-30SM regiment in terms of efficiency.
      1. +1
        April 6 2020 12: 55
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Now let’s compare it with the Su-30SM regiment in terms of efficiency.


        Let's compare the cost?
        In terms of carrying capacity? 5 modified Eaglets will replace the Su-30 SM regiment - approximately 6-8 times savings with slightly lower combat effectiveness in terms of using anti-ship missiles against non-carrier ship groups.
        Both platforms will not be able to oppose anything to aircraft carrier ship groups until the air wing is eliminated.

        Although in terms of tactical dispersal, the Su-30 will at least be able to be based from highways, unlike the Tu-22M3M.
        1. -1
          April 6 2020 14: 49
          Then let's hang missiles on the IL-76 from the outside.
        2. 0
          April 7 2020 17: 39
          Let's compare the cost?
          In terms of carrying capacity? 5 modified Eaglets will replace the Su-30 SM regiment - approximately 6-8 times savings with slightly lower combat effectiveness in terms of using anti-ship missiles against non-carrier ship groups.


          For example, by cost. Restoring ekranoplan construction costs hundreds of billions of rubles just by the time the first large ekranoplan is built.
          How much can you buy a Su-30 with this money?
          Can an ekranoplan replace them? For example, during a maneuver between theaters of operations? Or when hitting a ground target, for example with bombs?

          We need to go from function.
          For example, we need to strike at NK. Let's see what's best for hitting NK.
          Then you need to strike at the entrenched infantry.
          Let's look again.
          With an eye on budgets.
          1. 0
            April 8 2020 11: 09
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Restoring ekranoplan construction costs hundreds of billions of rubles just by the time the first large ekranoplan is built.


            You're dramatizing.
            Enormous funds are not required to “restore work” on ekranoplanes - it goes within the framework of R&D of existing funding - on models.

            The Central Design Bureau for the SPK named after R. E. Alekseev is developing a project for an ocean-area ekranoplane with a take-off weight of approximately 500 tons, said the general director and general designer of the Morinformsystem-Agat concern.


            The transition from model to prototype will, of course, require greater costs - again it depends on the size of the ordered platform: ocean class or coastal (littoral) zone.
            Will it be a dual-medium or exclusively screen class, etc.
            My opinion is to build class A ES (only flight on the screen), in dimensions up to 150 tons with a load of up to 30 tons, modular type (replaceable compartment) for transport and landing operations, rescue operations, medical and replaceable weapons compartment + replaceable guidance module (according to concept of a suspended guidance container with a built-in guidance radar) - yes, this is not optimal in terms of weight, but it is more versatile.
            Modern design methods make it possible to include a replaceable module in the load-bearing frame of the main structure, so the loss of weight perfection can be limited.

            Unfortunately, the main proposed concepts are again outdated analogues of the 903 project - a seaplane body on a screen wing.

            While catamaran-type load-bearing hulls have been asking for a long time. But the designers of existing design bureaus know how to calculate familiar designs using proven methods and do not want to look wider - the Koreans with the WSH-500 took a step in a different direction - a more promising one.
            1. 0
              April 8 2020 15: 39
              I'm not exaggerating. By the time the first flight model was built, the Su-57 program cost only the Ministry of Defense 60 billion, and there were also R&D projects that were financed by the Ministry of Industry and Trade and which were not included in this figure.
              And also the early groundwork, which even included experimental aircraft, the same Berkut, which also missed 60 yards. So 100 billion for the revival of ekranoplan production + one lead vehicle is still an optimistic estimate.
    2. 0
      April 7 2020 21: 10
      an attempt to adapt the transport fuselage (hull) of an ekranoplane to accommodate fairly heavy and large anti-ship missiles 3M-80 “Moskit”. What entailed: high drag, high “top weight”. The Eaglet (Project 904) has nothing to do with Lun (Project 903), these are completely independent machines, even the designers are different...
      1. +1
        April 8 2020 15: 50
        Quote: Eaglet
        an attempt to adapt the transport fuselage (hull) of an ekranoplane to accommodate fairly heavy and large anti-ship missiles 3M-80 “Moskit”. What entailed: high drag, high “top weight”. The Eaglet (Project 904) has nothing to do with Lun (Project 903), these are completely independent machines, even the designers are different...


        Why was this written?

        In the weight and overall dimensions of the "Eaglet", you can get a carrier of six anti-ship missiles with the mass and dimensions of 3M-80.
        To do this, it is necessary to move on to a catamaran hull, a drum-type launcher - offhand, 5-6 schemes suggest the placement of the combat load, power plants and empennage.
  67. 0
    April 6 2020 12: 46
    Well, that’s it, the author, he convinced me! We will carry loads on horses and slaves! Some people don’t need kerosene, and others don’t need oats! Grace! Aren't you too smart for us?
    1. -1
      April 6 2020 14: 50
      I remember not so long ago they laughed at Zelensky, who didn’t need roads, it’s time to carry everything on drones.
    2. -1
      April 6 2020 17: 48
      In 21 years, the Universal Wave Oscillation Generator (UHVK) will be created.
      The principle of operation of the GWHC is to generate and transmit wave information of an object of different levels from one point in space to another. Thus, the superposition effect in quantum mechanics is confirmed, according to which the location of an object is assumed immediately everywhere, and only after determining its properties, it materializes in space.
      The levels of information transmission can be different, from the transmission of sound and image to the transmission of the object itself.
      In the same way energy can be transmitted, in fact, wave information of a higher level is transmitted in order to receive energy. GWHCs are possible both for home use and for industrial use, up to moving in interstellar space.
      It is probably possible to adjust the transmitted object during transmission. For example, when teleporting a person, it will be possible to conduct his rejuvenation or health adjustment. Moreover, during materialization, they arose at the desired point in space-time, and not only within the materializer.
      And all the people, according to the precepts of Tsiolkovsky, will settle across all the limits of our universe.
      At one time, Tsiolkovsky suggested that humanity would be able to resurrect people and resettle them across all the universal limits. So with UGVK this dream can really come true, the question is only goodwill.
      It will be very simple to happen, with the help of the UHEC, we move to a time when a person was still alive, copy his oscillatory process and return to our time and already here we create a material copy of the person who lived then. This process is similar to transferring files over the Internet, only at a different level of matter.
      And no mysticism and esotericism! Everything in our energy world is material!
    3. 0
      April 7 2020 22: 42
      For you? Too smart, yes.
  68. -2
    April 6 2020 13: 32
    Russia has two allies: the Army and the Navy, which ensure the military and state security of our Motherland. History, written with the blood of our people, teaches us the right actions and deeds, but we do not learn to understand well, and this is evidenced by the facts of combat losses, people and equipment. Time marches inexorably forward, weapons and the tactics of their use are being improved, but in fact we state the insufficiency of technical means. Mobile delivery vehicles and their protection from damage.
    Citizens of Russia serve in the Army and Navy and fulfill their honorable military duties. Every serviceman is priceless and under any wartime circumstances we are obliged to defend our Motherland without sparing our lives. But the life of every serviceman must be protected, and the possibility of his defeat during redeployment must be minimized. Let's face the truth and understand that during military operations people die, expensive equipment becomes torn scrap metal, everything that is created over the years turns into trash per second. This is the reality of war. As the experience of the Second World War and local conflicts shows, the army and navy actually suffer non-combat losses during transportation and transition to the place of hostilities. Take for example the statistics of destroyed forces and assets during delivery to the front...or checkpoint, point, etc. and we really see the fact of insufficient security, speed, mobility during unloading operations, equipment and technical capabilities in overcoming certain dangerous, hard-to-reach areas along the route to the destination.
    Our goal in any military conflict is VICTORY over the enemy. But at what cost??? At the cost of priceless human lives??? Or at the cost of bank accounts??? Trying to justify inaction in peacetime by achieving Victory at any cost??? This leads to the death of people and the destruction of equipment, complete defeat after achieving Victory over the enemy in front of third-party opponents who did not participate in the hostilities and retained human and technical resources. Any technical device has its limitations for operation in the natural environment, especially at sea, which is not to be joked with, so we need to work on improving seaplanes and other weapons and technical means, as well as on the creation of hypersonic weapons. In a modern war, an army staffed with specialists and technical means providing speed, firepower that exceeds the technical capabilities and readiness of the enemy in terms of the quality and quantity of technical means and trained military specialists can win. And many other things that have an understanding of timeliness in application.... You shouldn’t brag and sell your achievements so as not to step on your toes.....
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 14: 52
      What is this, a rally? Go and engage in anti-government agitation elsewhere.
  69. +2
    April 6 2020 14: 31
    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    2. The flight range of the missile system when launched at a speed of 500 km/h is greater than at a speed of 50 km/h.

    Sure? I understand that the range would increase if the rocket had a rocket engine. The entire system could then be viewed as a two-stage rocket. Plus, the missile itself would follow a ballistic trajectory, which would increase its total range. But current anti-ship missiles are missiles with a turbojet (generally speaking) engine. It can hardly be considered that an electric vehicle launched from a vehicle traveling at a speed of 500 km/h will significantly increase its flight range. Both "Caliber" and "Onyx" reach cruising speed after the completion of their starting accelerators (which is seconds). Therefore, it is hardly possible to talk about a critical increase in the flight range of the missile system

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    3. The missile launchers are now different (compactness - number of missiles).

    The question is, of course, interesting. But ambiguous. The performance characteristics of modern anti-ship missiles/missiles are different, but have their weight and dimensions changed that much?
    For example
    • "Mosquito" - length 9,4 meters (in the launch container - almost 9,8 m), launch weight 3,9 tons (option 3M80, since 3M80E did not exist at that time). Rocket caliber 0,76 meters (launch container diameter is approximately 1,5 meters)
    • "Onyx" - length 8,9 m in TPK. The weight in the TPK is the same 3,9 tons. The rocket itself is 3 tons. The caliber of the rocket is about 650 mm, the diameter of the EMNIP TPK is 720 mm.
    • "Caliber" - depending on the modification, weight from 1,8 to 2,3 tons. Length 8,2 meters, caliber 512 mm (TPK diameter - 533 mm).
    Of course, instead of 6 containers with Mosquitoes, you can place vertically a significantly larger number of Onyx anti-ship missiles (for example, 3 TPKs across and 5 along the fuselage) or Caliber (4 across and 5 along). But this raises two questions.
    The first and most important. Is vertical launch of these missiles possible? After all, these missiles on launchers come out of the containers, albeit at a non-zero speed, but still not sufficient to extend above the level of the vertical stabilizer with horizontal tail. Won't the rocket crash against the vertical stabilizer??? After all, the horizontal velocity vector will be about 139 m/s???
    And the second question. Suppose we place the same 15 “Onyxes” or 20 “Calibers” on the ES. Nowadays (more precisely in the past), the Lunya payload was about 27 tons (6 containers with missiles). Now, with the above-mentioned scenarios, the payload will be approximately 40 tons with “Calibers” and 58,5 tons with “Onyxes,” respectively. and this means that the EP will carry 13-32 tons less fuel, which means that the not-so-large combat radius of this missile carrier will drop

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    4. The time to reach the launch position and leave the position is an order of magnitude less than that of the NK.

    Nobody argues with this. The speed of EP is perhaps the only advantage compared to conventional NK

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    5. A flock of aircraft can remain in the duty zone (on the surface) for a long time.

    Theoretically they can. But practically can they? After all, being in the duty zone to intercept the same AUG implies that they must arrive at this duty zone. Taking into account the fact that the AUG AWACS systems now have the ability to view an area approximately 800-900 km from the AUG center with a combat radius of the EC of approximately 500-700 km, where should this “waiting zone” be? At what distance from AUG?? How long will it take for AUG detection equipment to detect such a flock? especially when you consider that AUG detection means are only part of the enemy detection means

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    6. The anti-submarine capabilities of the EP have not been disclosed..

    Yes, not disclosed. I agree with you here. Although the question arises, will the EP have such capabilities? Is it capable of detecting submarines without having GAS submerged in water?? Agree that immersing the station at a speed of 500 km/h will doom it to failure in advance. Another thing is that the EP is protected from enemy mine and torpedo weapons...

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    7. Avionics are different now (the role of the pilot), and maybe and unmanned.

    The avionics are different now, but given the speed of the aircraft and its proximity to the surface of the water, the problem remains. And I don’t know if it can be made unmanned. Theoretically it’s probably possible, but practically...

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    8. EP no matter what flat surface you fly over.

    Unfortunately no. An ekranolet capable of flying with separation from the underlying surface - yes. But the ekranoplan is tied to the water surface. Of course, it can make a short rise to a height, but uneven land with a screen height of 4-10 meters at a speed of 500 km/h can lead to dire consequences

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    9. Turboprop engines provide efficiency.

    Alekseev’s turboprops were used only on the Orlyonok and only as marching ones. As starters, ensuring “getting up on the screen” (i.e., for takeoff), only turbojet ones are used. And where in the electric vehicle can a sufficient number of turboprop engines be placed? "Eaglet" had them on the vertical stabilizer."

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    10. Composite materials make the structure lighter, are not subject to corrosion, and reduce ESR.

    This also applies to airplanes.

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    11. Designing with stealth technology reduces the ESR.

    It is unlikely that a turboprop engine will add “stealth” to an ekranoplan... And yet it is difficult to achieve stealth with such a vertical stabilizer and such wings.

    Quote: Nikolai Aleksandrovich
    12. Combat radius m.b. increased when refueling from the tanker's EP.

    As far as is known, no such tests have been carried out. In addition, the response time of the ES to the threat will go down the drain. After all, in order to transfer a tanker to a rendezvous point located 500 km from the base, it will take about half a day, if not more. And it’s not a fact that this will somehow help the EP. The goal may come from a completely different angle. But EP tankers did not exist, and they would not take enough fuel to refuel the ekranoplan at the required distance...
  70. 0
    April 6 2020 18: 51
    A horse and cart is even more economical
  71. -1
    April 6 2020 19: 01
    Well, the meaning of the article is clear. The author is against ekranoplanes. But they fly over land just as well as over the sea. And Kursk could have been saved if we had ekranoplanes. And it is incorrect to compare the design of 40 years ago with the current ones.
    1. 0
      April 6 2020 20: 11
      Before spouting nonsense, including about land, take an interest in the height of the screen
      1. -1
        April 7 2020 21: 02
        Unlike YOU Dzafdet This is nonsense, for those who are especially advanced - the height of the screen is half the chord of the wing, does that tell you anything... and in the instructions of the same Eaglet - the maximum flight altitude is 2000 m, well, bet!!!
        1. +1
          April 8 2020 09: 04
          With what load? Well, half a chord of a wing over land is trash
          1. 0
            April 8 2020 21: 26
            For those who are on an armored train... The floor of the wing chord is the height of the screen... over land it can fly like a regular plane, but it will consume a lot of fuel...
            1. +1
              April 9 2020 12: 34
              Only if the ekranolet
  72. 0
    April 6 2020 20: 15
    A significant factor is that from the moment work began on them in our country until the mid-80s, the ekranoplan was a difficult target to shoot down. It's in the past now
  73. -1
    April 6 2020 22: 05
    I wonder if the author had undertaken to compare a finger with a penis, he would probably have found such “evidence” that it would have become clear that the finger is not needed, the penis is more important! Why doesn’t the author compare helicopters and airplanes in terms of efficiency? After all, he compares ekranoplans with airplanes, why is a helicopter worse? Dear author, there is no need to compare disproportionate objects and draw false conclusions from this, there is no need to cry over the losses of the national economy from the use of ekranoplanes, firstly, there has been no national economy for a long time, we, if you are not aware, have private municipal and state property, in secondly, ALL military equipment is not economical; just remember N.S. Khrushchev’s surprise when he learned that the Black Sea Fleet burned as much fuel oil in a few days as the whole of Ukraine consumed in a year.
  74. 0
    April 6 2020 22: 15
    And, in my opinion, it would be more effective to quickly and invisibly transport a tank landing across the ocean, for example, to Trump’s dacha, on ekranoplanes
    1. 0
      April 7 2020 17: 39
      Why are planes worse in this case?
  75. -1
    April 6 2020 22: 17
    Another “self-propelled gun” decided to kick ekranoplans... he wrote a lot and stupidly, because I haven’t seen an ekranoplan and don’t understand a basic thing, an ekranoplan is not an airplane, but a “flying ship”... to enter into a discussion with laymen, in my unenlightened opinion, is stupid... and not to be unfounded - the mentioned “Eaglet” (pr .904) with a weight of 140 tons, flies on ONE NK-12 engine, name at least one aircraft that can do this... and the speed of the same Lun (pr-903) is 600 km/h, in about a few days cruisers with destroyers will be in a given area, in which Lun will be in a couple of hours... When our “partners” create similar equipment, Mr. Timokhin will tell with all his might that they have screwed up the championship again..... what touches me most is that people discussing technology (not an idea, not a type of transport) created in the 60-70s of the last century and trying it on with modern realities...
    1. 0
      April 7 2020 00: 41
      .. and so as not to be unfounded - the mentioned "Eaglet" (Project 904), with a weight of 140 tons, flies on ONE NK-12 engine, name at least one aircraft that can do this ..
      MD-11, with twice the weight.
      1. +1
        April 7 2020 20: 55
        The MD-11 flies on 3 engines, and the old Orlyonok on one....at the same time, its “technological peer” Tu-95, weighing 180 tons, flies on 4 engines NK-12
    2. 0
      April 7 2020 06: 14
      Yes, I wrote it amateurishly. Especially against the backdrop of how the developers themselves from the Central Design Bureau of SPK screwed up this CRAP
      1. -1
        April 7 2020 20: 52
        Who exactly and what CRAP did they screw up??? Do you know them? Or maybe you rode an ekranoplan? And in general, besides... Wikipedia, where did you get the information about ekranoplanes from, given your categoricalness...
        1. +1
          April 8 2020 09: 09
          Yes, more than for work.
          The people’s positions are not ordinary; they are much older than me and worked with Alekseev.
          1. 0
            April 8 2020 21: 57
            I also talked “at work”, with many who built and designed Project 904 Orlyonok (including Sokolov) and at the same time, somehow I didn’t notice the “swallow tail”... and the “guys” who worked with Alekseev for years 100..
            1. +1
              April 9 2020 12: 36
              Somewhat less.
              Less than 70
              1. 0
                April 13 2020 04: 06
                And they very much regretted the missed opportunities of the SPK due to Alekseev’s insistence on screen crap
    3. 0
      April 7 2020 18: 56
      .wrote a lot and stupidly, because... I haven’t seen an ekranoplan before and don’t understand a basic thing: an ekranoplan is not an airplane, but a “flying ship”...


      Why is it needed?

      and not to be unfounded - the mentioned "Eaglet" (Project 904), with a weight of 140 tons, flies on ONE NK-12 engine; name at least one aircraft that can do this...


      Airplanes capable of flying (not taking off) with a power consumption of 85 hp. per ton in the world in bulk. The old Constellation stayed in the air with about 60-70 hp. a ton


      With one engine 3440 hp. and weighing 50 kopecks (in the video) tons. There's nothing special about it.

      and the speed of the same Lun (pr-903) is 600 km/h, in about a few days the cruisers and destroyers will be in the given area,


      Cruisers with destroyers are deployed to a given area a month in advance, even during a threatened period, and hold the area for as long as necessary - a month, two, three, replenishing supplies directly at sea. Cruisers and destroyers have hundreds of anti-aircraft missiles to fend off an air raid.
      Can an ekranoplan stay in a given area for two months? How about repulsing a squadron of fighters?
      No. It only has speed.
      But the same Su-30SM is three times faster. Their speed is higher, and they themselves can protect themselves from aircraft.
      There are simply no tasks for an ekranoplan. Airplanes prioritize it in speed, ships focus on weapon power and time in a given area, and everything focuses on survivability.

      When our “partners” create a similar technique, Mr. Timokhin will tell with all his might that they have screwed up the championship again


      You shouldn't judge people by yourself.
      1. -1
        April 7 2020 20: 47
        The old Constellation stayed in the air with about 60-70 hp. a ton
        With one engine 3440 hp. and weighing 50 kopecks t.

        Current engines - 4 pieces

        Can an ekranoplan stay in a given area for two months? What for??? He can fly there at least every day...by the way, replenishing supplies at sea is not a problem for him

        But the same Su-30SM is three times faster And what? They can probably drag six “Zircons” or “Onyxes” and hit the enemy with them????
        1. 0
          April 7 2020 21: 20
          Current engines - 4 pieces


          I posted a video of a flight on one engine especially for the illiterate. Like, you don’t know how to read, you don’t understand letters, well, here’s a movie for you. Apparently some people are not friendly with eyes at all, or their brain cannot decipher the picture.

          What for??? He can fly there at least every day..


          And then, when approaching decent people with your portrait, it would be nice to understand the subject of discussion at least at the level of a schoolchild. Surface forces and strike aircraft have different missions in naval warfare. Surface forces are a means of HOLDING the water area and preventing the enemy from entering there. To do this, they must be in it constantly.

          Aviation is a purely strike weapon, take off and, based on target designation from surface forces or other means (satellites, reconnaissance aircraft, airborne radar systems - whichever is live at this moment), unleash the most powerful salvo on the enemy. Therefore, speed, the number of attack units and the ability to operate in conditions where enemy aircraft offer fierce resistance are critical for aviation.

          Now let's compare. To raise now an ekranoplan construction capable of building something smaller than the Lun, and to build one Lun, even with the same 6 missiles in a salvo (for example, Zircons), is a program worth hundreds of billions of rubles at best. If only because it needs special engines (the NK-87 is not made now), a bunch of related products, etc. The same fifth-generation fighter program was completed at 70 yards without taking into account the previously existing backlog, with a backlog of about a hundred, and this is a simpler project, for example, there is no need to build new factories or docks, and the groundwork was good.
          Just for reference - an IL-76 that does not carry any weapons and is absolutely serial is approximately 5-6 billion rubles.
          Charged for naval aviation, the Su-30SM with a new radar and a reinforced ventral pylon for a heavy missile (see photo in the article) is about 2 billion.

          So it turns out that for a hundred billion we either get ONE ekranoplane (the result of R&D is the lead ship in the series, everything else is already a series) and the readiness to produce another series, or FIFTY fighters, under each of which the same modernized “Zircon” can later be registered ".


          FIFTY missiles in a salvo against SIX, the complete impossibility of destroying all these forces with one air-to-air missile, against the very real and not particularly problematic possibility of destroying ONE ekranoplane with one missile, the ability to independently search for targets due to the flight altitude of aircraft versus the lack of such in ekranoplanes , versatility (aircraft can bomb targets on land, operate in different areas, transfer to another theater of operations in a matter of days) versus a narrow focus on the task of “launching an attack on a target not covered by aircraft at a distance of 700 km from the base only over water, only in calm and only in summer".

          With the start of mass production, everything will get even worse.
          We need 2 pilots for the Su, and 10 people for the ekranoplan. The training of one pilot at the school is about thirty million in five years. Airplanes are more profitable 1:5. The price of the issue in terms of the technology itself - if the new "Lun" can be packed within fifteen yards, then again it turns out that for one ekranoplan there are 7,5 aircraft.
          And if instead of the Su-30 we take the Su-34 with reinforced wing pylons, then all this mathematics also includes the fact that it will be able to carry two heavy missiles.
          2 Lunya with 6 missiles each (12 in a salvo in total) and an “expensive” large crew and complete unsuitability for any other tasks other than an attack on the NK and 15 universal, more survivable and capable of performing a lot of tasks on any Sukhoi theater of operations with 30 missiles in a salvo. FOR THE SAME MONEY.

          If we compare theoretical transport ekranoplanes with the Il76, then everything will be even worse.

          I don’t understand that all these are not arguments for some individuals.
          And this property of theirs does not in any way negate the fact that ekranoplanes are simply NOT NEEDED FOR ANYTHING.
          1. -1
            April 7 2020 21: 29
            Unlike the “blind” ones, the video shows the work of 4 engines... well, feature films are a strong argument... and the reasoning of the “moreman” praising his swamp is not news... but you are talking about the use of aviation like a child, it’s understandable from the captain’s bridge not far away (especially from a submarine)
            1. 0
              April 7 2020 21: 52
              Unlike the “blind” ones, the video shows the work of 4 engines...


              I'm a stubborn guy and I don't feel sorry for stubborn people at all. Here is a screenshot with three stopped propellers and one running engine (far right)

              Can you see the time on the video?

              Well, feature films are a strong argument...


              This is a documentary. And flying with one or two engines inoperative is a requirement for any multi-engine aircraft.

              85 hp per ton is not a unique parameter by any means.

              .but about the use of aviation, you talk like a child


              In essence, of course, you have nothing to object to, and this was clear from the very beginning. Well, wrap yourself in a sheet and cry about the fact that the evil author offended your favorite child prodigy.
              1. -1
                April 8 2020 00: 19
                As I already wrote, in aviation you are a zero...the ability to fly on one or more engines (with the others turned off) is really not a problem, but you can fly like this only in emergency or special situations, and who said that he flies with maximum weight? and who told you that he can make sharp evolutions in this situation, who told you that he does not fly with a descent, etc. etc..and Eaglet’s flight on one engine is NORMAL...his brother (by age) Tu-95, with a weight of 180 tons, for some reason has 4 NK-12s...to add up the numbers, you don’t need much intelligence, But why should we take an interest in the topic so as not to write crap? We are “white bones”, we are higher than this... well, so for starters, explain 85 hp per ton, what does it tell you personally about an airplane or ekranoplan, especially since you are a “digital lover” from Wikipedia, you can calculate this parameter , a direct question - what is the rated power of the NK-12, or do you really think that the flight takes place at maximum conditions... you, my friend, don’t understand a simple thing, the ekranoplane is good (in the pilot’s sense), at least because the lifting force during flight is several times greater than that of an airplane (which is why it flies on one engine), and if you’re a naval officer, then, according to Alekseev, the best efficiency of an ekranoplan weighing 1500-2000 tons, if I’m not mistaken, is something like a corvette, if they set up half of your fleet for scrap metal... and it seems to me that the “father of ekranoplanes” - Admiral of the USSR Gorshkov, thought much more about building a fleet than A. Timokhin.
                1. 0
                  April 8 2020 01: 05
                  An ekranoplan, in the pilot’s mind, is a coffin with zero headroom, which does not provide the opportunity to correct a mistake in piloting; it is overweight, slow, and vulnerable. Almost all heavy ekranoplanes crashed and for a reason. The eaglet was lifted to 500 meters, the flight was on the verge of disaster, it is not controlled in this mode at all. What if you need to fly over land?

                  Everything that an ekranoplan can do can be done by airplanes, and much better and cheaper - that’s a fact. The eaglet, with a take-off weight of 140 tons, carries 20 tons of cargo. Mi-26 is also 20 tons with a maximum take-off of 56 tons. But it also flies above the ground and can land and take off vertically. The cruising speed is only 100 km/h lower.
                  Yes, this alone is a death sentence for ekranoplanes, as a class, in principle.
                  And what airplanes can do, an ekranoplan cannot - for example, it’s trivial to fly over the Ural ridge.

                  Would you like to comment on examples of fifty Su-30SM for the price of one Lunya-2? You simply have nothing to object to.

                  This is a dead end of evolution.
                  Just like you.
                  1. 0
                    April 8 2020 21: 20
                    What kind of heavy ekranoplane can crash, except KM??? and by the way, the main question is how many people died in ekranoplan accidents??? (despite the fact that the crews, as the author writes, are 10 people each, and there were 3 major accidents)
                    The ekranoplan in the pilot's concept is a coffin This is correct for the vast majority of “icemen” who have seen ekranoplanes only in the picture and, like our author, understand its positive and negative sides....unlike YOU, I touched ekranoplanes with my own hands and saw them in flight...
                    The eaglet was raised 500 meters, the flight was on the verge of disaster The eaglet flew over land more than once, but this was not included in the reports, because... the flights were “forced”, and for especially gifted sailors (it’s not clear where they got the information from) - in the operating manual for the small landing ekranoplane Project 904 it is written - the maximum flight altitude of Project 904 is 2000m, which is limited (guess what??? given your knowledge of the material) - the shape of the nasal air intakes.
                    Would you like to comment on examples of fifty Su-30SM for the price of one Lunya-2? commenting on nonsense is stupid... 50 Su-30cm cost about 200 billion rubles, how much can you build Lunya with this money, well, a dozen for sure... but any pilot will understand what your Su-300s will do with two heavy missiles on an external sling - dry the crackers, because the combat radius will be 400-30 km, they will not be able to do any aerobatic evolutions (in close combat any fighter will “smear them”), the flight speed will not be much higher than that of Lun, and even for air defense systems, this “flying cow” (Su -XNUMXcm with two, for example, Onyxes) will be a “New Year’s gift”...Are you satisfied????
                    And by the way, the same “dead ends of evolution” like you shouted in the 60s, Why do we need helicopters!!! The planes will do everything for them!!! And after Vietnam, someone started yelling - Give me helicopters!!! Bigger and better!!!
                    1. 0
                      April 8 2020 22: 42
                      What kind of heavy ekranoplane can crash, except KM??? and by the way, the main question is how many people died in ekranoplan accidents??? (despite the fact that the crews, as the author writes, are 10 people each, and there were 3 major accidents)


                      Eaglets, no? One crashed, the second could not stand the banal towing, plus the CM himself, if Lun had continued to fly, it is unknown what else would have happened to him.

                      In the operating manual for the small landing ekranoplane Project 904 it is written that the maximum flight altitude of Project 904 is 2000m, which is limited (guess what??? you can guess it given your knowledge of the material) - by the shape of the nose air intakes.


                      But on the An-12 it is not limited by the shape of the air intakes - surprise!
                      And I know a guy who survived an anti-aircraft maneuver from Syria in 1973 on an An-12, but how weak is Eaglet?
                      How about flying over the Urals?
                      The carrying capacity is the same as the Eaglet, it can be easily compared.

                      commenting on nonsense is stupid...50 Su-30cm cost about 200 billion rubles, how much can you build Lunya with this money, well, a dozen for sure


                      This is persistence! How is that ten Lunars? In order for the first prototype of the Su-57 to rise, it took 60 billion just from the Ministry of Defense, without taking into account the expenses of the Ministry of Industry and Trade for research and development on related topics, without taking into account the expenses for the NTZ, which, by the way, had a "Berkut" on which the same composites were tested. So one hundred is still an optimistic estimate, in fact it will be more.
                      You look like a fairy-tale elf from a comic book, since you are charging me 10 billion apiece for Lun. without R&D, without developing new engines for it, without founding a new design bureau, creating a production base, etc.
                      A stubborn fanatic: “if the country must die for the sake of an ekranoplan, then let it die.”
                      Here above, one with the same pathology has already agreed that for the sake of ekranoplanes it is possible to disband the Military Transport Aviation and the Airborne Forces, and another suggested digging 2 km ditches on the ground so that there is somewhere to plant ekranoplanes. If only they had their favorite ekranoplans. Apparently you are the same.

                      but any pilot will understand what your Su will do with two heavy missiles on an external sling - dry the crackers, because the combat radius will be 300-400 km,


                      Any military pilot knows the formula "Combat radius = 0,33 practical range." Then grab the calculator and off you go. And there is also such a thing as IN-AIR REFUELING.
                      Have die-hard ekranoglider pilots ever heard of mid-air refueling?
                      Can you take down 10 Su with one missile? And one ekranoplan?
                      What about a “star” raid on a target from three sides with one ekranoplane?
                      And how will he search for a target if, for example, there is no external control center?

                      they will not be able to do any aerobatic evolutions (in close combat any fighter will “smear them”), the flight speed will not be much higher than that of Lun


                      The flight speed will be 800-850 km/h, this is much higher than that of Lun, and the most important thing is that interceptors can be sent to strike with them. And after the launch of anti-ship missiles, they completely regain their maneuverability.
                      What about the ekranoplan?

                      and for air defense systems, this “flying cow” (Su-30cm with two, for example, Onyxes) will be a “New Year’s gift”...Are you satisfied????


                      Excellent knowledge of tactics, yeah. But only part of the aircraft in the group can make a slide and provide a control center for those flying at low altitude, who will launch missiles from outside the ship’s air defense radio horizon.

                      Can Lun do this? And then to dodge the missile defense system? And then to start a battle with enemy interceptors working in pursuit? And leave them, causing them losses as well?

                      No, Lun can only satisfy the mania of the stubborn.

                      And by the way, the same “dead ends of evolution” like you shouted in the 60s, Why do we need helicopters!!


                      Another bullshit from a freak ekranoglider pilot. This was not the case; in Vietnam, American troops in helicopters began to fight openly with Operation Silver Spear, and this was 1965.
                      By this time, the USSR already had a developed helicopter industry and no one was going to cut it.
                      1. 0
                        April 8 2020 23: 31
                        the Su-57 prototype rose, it took 60 billion to cut only through the Ministry of Defense It’s bad to ride an armored train along the bottom of the Pacific Ocean... The Su-57 is a NEW AIRPLANE, and the Lun can simply be improved with new technologies...
                        You look like a fairy-tale elf from a comic book, since you are charging me 10 billion apiece for Lun. without R&D, without developing new engines for it, without founding a new design bureau, creating a production base, etc. Goblins like you are not trained to count - for normal people, a series of Harriers will cost an average of 20 yards each, and the design bureau and production base exist in Nizhny
                        Excellent knowledge of tactics, yeah. It’s just that some of the planes in the group can make a slide and provide a control center for those flying at low altitude, who will launch missiles from outside the ship’s air defense radio horizonThis is just a waste of my soul... I knew that the Moremans were stupid, but so much so... I have no idea what he’s writing about... I’m ending the argument... it turns out that there are liberals not only in economics
                      2. 0
                        April 13 2020 04: 04
                        MuZie "illiberal Orlyonok", would YOU deign to explain why your sucking of a dirty finger on the topic of price tags of screen crap is SO different from the financial requests of their top organization, popularly called "Swamp System-Coal"? Ass?
                      3. -1
                        April 13 2020 20: 45
                        Regarding the price tags of the “top organizations” by the Fizik M museum, neither you nor I know anything, so suck what you like... and the indicated price tag was intended for the “very smart” author who could not divide 200 yards into ten.. .especially since, in my opinion, the figures are close to reality (as for Lun), but the ekranoplanes under discussion were built in the 60-70s, so discussing and comparing their parameters with modern requirements is incorrect..and by the way, being difficult to knock down has remained the trump card of ekranoplanes...you Do you know a lot of air defense systems that aim at a target at an altitude of 5-10 m?? or aircraft capable of selecting targets against the background of the earth at a distance of 100 km....
                      4. 0
                        April 14 2020 05: 20
                        Monsieur Orlyonok, I will disappoint you, sucking is part of the screen scams, I categorically refused to participate in this crap and scam

                        on air defense systems and radar systems of aircraft - briefly ALL modern

                        by the way - YOUR “modesty and forgetfulness” is very funny at comparative prices of the same 70s-80s
                      5. -1
                        April 14 2020 20: 56
                        YOUR “modesty and forgetfulness” is very funny at comparative prices of the same 70s-80s Your sarcasm is not very clear to the museum Fizik M... because I am sure that you yourself do not know the prices of the 70-80s, for example, 12 million rubles is a lot or a little (the cost of the Eaglet)
                        on air defense systems and radar systems of aircraft - briefly ALL modern Still, you don’t understand anything about this, that you are not a sailor, then categorical judgments without the slightest idea about the subject of judgments.... in your comments it is clear that your knowledge about ekranoplanes does not differ from Wikipedia, because You haven’t seen this technique live... that’s why “I haven’t heard the Beatles myself, but Sasha sang it to me on the phone - nothing interesting.” - this is about you...
                      6. 0
                        April 15 2020 07: 00
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        you yourself don’t know, for example, 12 million rubles is a lot or a little (the cost of the Eaglet)

                        it is more expensive than Tu22M3
                        and you are capitalized
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        You don’t understand anything about this either

                        three GC SAM absolutely opposite point of view on this issue wink
                      7. -1
                        April 15 2020 21: 42
                        it is more expensive than Tu22M3 Not a fact, because they say the Tu-10 cost 22 million, and this is with the Tu-22m3 - two big differences... besides, ekranoplanes were not mass-produced, each was practically “hand-assembled” (therefore each was different from each other in flight), accordingly they had a higher cost.
                        and you are capitalized If you treat your interlocutor with respect, then yes...your derogatory manner of communication does not lend itself to this.
                        three air defense systems have a completely opposite point of view on this issue Well, you don’t have any point of view....on this I say goodbye, because... Once again I was convinced of the complete stupidity of conducting polemics with hardened seamen... although some who claim that they are submariners should be ashamed of their stupidity, the presence of ekranoplanes - rescuers would save the lives of many of their colleagues, for example from the Komsomolets crew. ...
                      8. 0
                        April 16 2020 07: 38
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        because they say the Tu-10 cost 22 million

                        in the case of the eaglet Vaska, “they say” this means “the chickens are milked” lol
                        and now some numbers and facts
                        The actual figures for 1972, according to the annual reports of 3 and 6 GU MAP, dated January 1973, were as follows:
                        Type Issue Wholesale price Planned price Actual price
                        Tu-22M1 3 9.800.784 rub. 8.288.000 rub. RUB 8.173.054
                        Tu-22M2 3 11.870.417 rub. RUB 9.910.000 RUB 10.039.961
                        For comparison:
                        Tu-144 1 26.300.000 rub. 21.230.000 rub. 21.231.600 rub.
                        IL-76 1 18.700.000 rub. 14.907.300 rub. RUB 15.004.833
                        An-22 8 6.911.515 rub. 5.768.000 rub. RUR 5.708.591

                        Quote: Eaglet
                        ekranoplanes were not mass-produced, each was practically “hand-assembled” (therefore, each was different from each other in flight), and accordingly they had a higher cost.

                        Thus, it can be stated that up to 1973, i.e. During the first five years of mass production, the price of the Tu-22M practically did not decrease and remained at about 10-12 million rubles. The reason for this was major design alterations, which at this moment were continuously carried out by the Tupolev Design Bureau at the stage of transition from Tu-22M0 to Tu-22M1, and then to Tu-22M2 ...

                        http://www.balancer.ru/g/p7746605
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        If you treat your interlocutor with respect, then yes...your derogatory manner of communication does not lend itself to this.

                        I have a very ironic attitude towards horses on pink ponies
                        and extremely negative - to cheaters
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        So you don’t have any point of view.

                        eaglet Vasek, before you write such nonsense, YOU would wipe your “rose-colored glasses” and see everything that has already been written
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        Once again I was convinced of the complete stupidity of conducting polemics with hardened Moremans

                        Apparently, this is not the first time that the Moremans are carrying the eaglet Vaska with his face on the table (figures and facts)
                        laughing
                        Quote: Eaglet
                        the presence of ekranoplanes - rescuers would have saved the lives of many of their colleagues, for example from the Komsomolets crew....

                        those. the presence and capabilities of other, and more effective, life-saving means are “categorically ignored” by the eaglet Vasek
                2. +1
                  April 8 2020 10: 20
                  For those on the armored train, AGAIN -
                  The key reason for the interest in ekranoplanes from the USSR Navy is their difficulty in knocking down the V-V missiles until the mid-to-late 80s, which was quite rightly pointed out by the efficiency department of the TsKBSPK.
                  However, this “train” has left. All that's left is a bad and expensive plane
            2. +1
              April 8 2020 10: 29
              Monsieur, I'm a submariner. However, issues of the intended use of aviation over the sea as part of interspecific groups had to be dealt with directly. Moreover, my level in this area did not raise questions among the four Civil Codes of key aviation complexes.
              I also know the bosses and lobbyists for screen crap, and the discussions were very tough.
              Consensus was found only regarding unmanned and disposable ekranoplanes for the Navy.

              What kind of civilian use of large ekranoplanes can we talk about if their controls on the wing are CONSUMABLES?
        2. +1
          April 8 2020 09: 11
          Don't forget about the replenishment of supplies - about the wave height.
          SU34 will lift three zircons
          1. 0
            April 8 2020 23: 32
            Raise it, it will raise it...How will it fly???
            1. +1
              April 9 2020 12: 38
              It will fly normally. Martirosov's assessment
  76. 0
    April 6 2020 22: 39
    Agents of influence in leadership
  77. 0
    April 7 2020 14: 36
    The article is interesting and contradictory at the same time. One thing worries me, the owner of this enterprise. He is a very interesting person, in fact. And the history of getting the enterprises into their own hands is just as interesting.
  78. The comment was deleted.
  79. 0
    April 7 2020 19: 50
    There are 2 types of questions: “leading” and “starting”. The content of the article rather allows it to be classified as an answer to the question of the first type. Judging by the reaction of VO readers, we can say that the question was posed incorrectly. If we translate it into the “suggestive” type, then the question will sound like this: “Are there any prospects for the screen effect in shipbuilding?” .
    Ekranoplan - hovercraft dynamic type. A classic hovercraft (Hovercraft) uses a cushion static type. Both technologies have their advantages and disadvantages. So why not combine these technologies in one vessel - a hybrid “SVP - Ekranoplan”. The static cushion works great at low speeds, allowing you to realize all the advantages of a hovercraft in the coastal zone. In addition, the “exit/exit from the screen” mode can be noticeably facilitated. At high speeds, a dynamic type air cushion works better. It is the combination of static and dynamic airbags that makes it possible to obtain a vehicle that will be devoid of the disadvantages inherent in the SVP and the ekranoplan separately. The future is hybrid "SVP-Ekranoplan", and it's worth it.

    Thus, combining these technologies in one vessel will radically change the situation with the use of screen effect in shipbuilding.
    The transition to electric propulsion, along with the use of fuel cells, will make this class of high-speed contactless transport not only cost-effective, but also truly indispensable for habitats remote from the mainland. If we turn to history, then the Sormovich SVP, with appropriate modifications (retractable wings), could well become the basis for such a SVP-Ekranoplan hybrid. So there is experience, and Rostislav Alekseev’s ideas will be able to come to life.


    https://s30232294060.mirtesen.ru/blog/43969998949/Sormovich-:-sovetskiy-passazhirskiy-korabl-na-vozdushnoy-podushk?desktop=1
    1. 0
      April 8 2020 06: 17
      Correction: instead of...attribute it to the answer to the first type of question... should read...classify it as an answer to a type 2 question.
    2. 0
      April 13 2020 03: 57
      You wrote everything correctly, but you forgot one more thing - gills. Then it will also be able to dive
  80. 0
    April 8 2020 21: 38
    This is the first time I’ve seen an article criticizing a project that “has no analogues in the world.” In general, it’s amazing how much in the USSR there was a rollback and burning of people’s money for crazy ideas.
    1. +1
      April 8 2020 22: 47
      Well, VO often publishes critical articles, and not just by me. This is what is good about Voennoye Obozreniye. Here, before me, we have ridden on ekranoplans more than once, Kaptsov, to whom I gave links, Skomorokhov relatively recently, I rode on Poseidon, and then Klimov. In short, there is a place for fair criticism and there are examples of it too.
      1. +1
        April 9 2020 12: 45
        Exactly. And nothing prevents the same supporters of ekranoplanes from writing an article themselves, I believe that there will be no problems with its publication
      2. 0
        April 9 2020 13: 02
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Kaptsov, to whom I gave links, Skomorokhov


        Has it become a “good tradition” to refer to non-specialists in technology and engineering?

        Both of these authors do not have a technical education and write amateurish opuses on issues in which they have neither competence nor understanding.

        Especially Kaptsov’s article on ekranoplanes - the article received dozens of times fewer positives than the critical commentary on it :))
        "Ekpred" is however authoritative...
        1. 0
          April 9 2020 19: 54
          Well, at least he doesn’t propose digging 2 km pools for ekranoplanes...
          To understand some things, banal common sense is enough.
          1. 0
            April 10 2020 12: 12
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, at least he doesn’t propose digging 2 km pools for ekranoplanes...
            To understand some things, banal common sense is enough.


            Do you think it's my idea? :))
            Such a basing project was considered during the Cold War (55-57) for hydroaviation, since all hard-surface strips would be destroyed in the first days, and the class A strip - for "strategists" - is a very expensive structure even by USSR standards.
            A similar basing was intended for the projects of the medium-range flying boat-bomber A-55, the strategic A-75 (from 1952 to 1961, R.L. Bartini worked on five projects of supersonic amphibious aircraft, made according to the “tailless” design - A-55, A-57, R, F-57 (R-57) and R-57AL), LL-600 - bomber-flying boat (developed at OKB TMZ under the leadership of G.M. Beriev in the first half of the 1960s in relation to variants bomber aircraft and a passenger aircraft with 2000 seats), M-70 supersonic strategic bomber-flying boat.

            A-57 project Bartini

            LL-600 project Beriev

            M-70 Myasishchev project
            It seems you don’t know much about the plans for aviation development in the 50s and 60s.

            Then experiments began with landing and takeoff of the Tu-95 from the ground with varying success...
            One landing/take-off from the ground was equivalent in terms of resource to 4 landings on hard-surface strips by the Tupolev Design Bureau. They abandoned ground-based bases for strategists because of the difficulty of landing and for fear that any rain would “pin” the strategists at the unpaved airfield for a long time.

            Then they began to include straight sections of roads with reinforced road surfaces for the operation of tactical aviation in civil construction projects.

            Therefore, at present, strategic aviation is more vulnerable than ever due to the chosen method of basing.
            During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Americans were forced to keep the B-20 strategists in the air for 52 hours in order to take them out of attack - however, they had enough basing zones to be able to land everything.
            At the current level of development of strike weapons, strategists simply will not have a single chance.
            1. 0
              April 10 2020 19: 21
              Regarding plans for the development of aviation, I most likely have already forgotten more than you knew, and while we are on the subject, all these plans were buried. Why?
              Because the number of airfields with concrete runways in the country today is such that no nuclear forces are enough to destroy them all in the first attack.
              Regarding the fact that strategists are doomed, you should study the American experience - combat duty at airfields in readiness number 2, MITO takeoff, Iron Dome, etc.
              When performing their duty correctly, strategic nuclear forces on duty are almost invulnerable to a sudden attack.
  81. 0
    April 9 2020 22: 56
    I will not dwell on whether there is a place for ekranoplans in the structure of the Navy or not - the issue is quite complex and controversial, requiring a comprehensive analysis, for which there is clearly not enough data. I will dwell on the more “bright” theses of the article, which successfully multiply the author’s pathos by zero.

    The author, without blinking the gas, takes takeoff thrust and multiplies it by the specific consumption at cruising mode, which is not the same thing, to put it mildly. For example, the NK-87 engine he mentioned is essentially a modification of the NK-86 for Lun; the NK-86, with a takeoff thrust of 13000 kg, had a cruising thrust of approximately 3200 kg. I did not find this data for VD-7, but I have no reason to doubt that this is far from the same thing. Therefore, the first postulate is obviously false.

    Let's go further and dwell on the petty swindle to which the author stoops: he multiplies the thrust of one engine 11000 (takeoff!!!) kg by 2, multiplies it by the specific consumption of 0,72 kg/kgf/hour (cruising!!!) and gets the hourly consumption 25 tons, although simple multiplication gives 15.84 tons. A special system calculator or something? Congratulations, Mr. Lie!

    And now we believe that the VD-7 engine is undoubtedly not as advanced as the NK-87 (still, the 20-year difference in the time of creation can’t be helped!), it is not a dual-circuit engine, and its thrust reduction is not as significant as that of the NK, so we accept it cruising thrust at a speed of 500 km/h is equal to approximately 6 tons, and lo and behold: hourly consumption at cruising speed shrinks to 8,64 tons of fuel. And where should we put all this verbose footcloth of Mr. Timokhin after this? winked

    You don’t have to stress about fuel consumption during takeoff - conventional planes also eat much more actively before reaching cruising speed than at cruising speed... wink
    1. +1
      April 10 2020 13: 13
      Monsieur, I’m not delighted with Timokhin’s digital tabs, but his fundamental errors in this screen crap do not cancel
      1. 0
        April 10 2020 19: 23
        It’s like a formula from a textbook on aerodynamics, if anything. Although the load-carrying capacity of the KM is actually lower than it appears from these calculations, apparently by several times, but according to the calculations everything is bad enough not to touch this topic ever.
    2. +1
      April 10 2020 19: 27
      Let's go further and dwell on the petty swindle to which the author stoops: he multiplies the thrust of one engine 11000 (takeoff!!!) kg by 2, multiplies it by the specific consumption of 0,72 kg/kgf/hour (cruising!!!) and gets the hourly consumption 25 tons, although simple multiplication gives 15.84 tons. A special system calculator or something?


      Now let's look at the text of the article,

      There is a simple formula for hourly fuel consumption with steady flight parameters.

      Q = Sud * G / K, where Q is the fuel consumption kg per hour, Court is the specific fuel consumption, G is the mass of the aircraft in kilograms and K is the aerodynamic quality.

      The formula is imprecise, it is used for approximate calculations, but we need the order of the numbers, nothing more. With a specific consumption of 0,8 kg/kgf*h for an aircraft weighing 500000 kg (we assume that part of the fuel was used for takeoff) and an aerodynamic quality of 16 (accepted for today’s ekranoplane projects, but anyone who has accurate data on the CM can substitute it) hourly consumption - approx. 25000 kg. For a 3,48 hour flight, this is about 87000 kg. But we still need to take off.


      Your writing does not correspond at all to what I wrote; I did nothing of what you are saying.
      Have you eaten too much hallucinogens? Wash your eyes and comment on the voices in your head at home, I didn’t write anything that you are trying to discuss with someone here

      And where should we put all this verbose footcloth of Mr. Timokhin after this?


      Print out your comment, which is divorced from the subject of discussion, and stick it wherever you want.
  82. -1
    April 10 2020 22: 05
    I read the article and remembered. When Alekseev created hydrofoil ships, Western experts who were not familiar with the essence of the matter stated that the ship could not move at such speed on the water, because it contradicted the theory. If he were alive, he would laugh at the article. The man who invented two new types of vehicles.
    1. 0
      April 13 2020 03: 52
      Alekseev did not invent the PDA; moreover, they also managed to fight with the Fritz in WWII.
      It was Alekseev who, with his screen crap, lost promising SECs in his Central Clinical Hospital (90% of whose resources were poured into screen crap)
  83. +2
    April 11 2020 19: 38
    Quote: Tarhun
    I read the article and remembered. When Alekseev created hydrofoil ships, Western experts who were not familiar with the essence of the matter stated that the ship could not move at such speed on the water, because it contradicted the theory. If he were alive, he would laugh at the article. The man who invented two new types of vehicles.

    Ivan. The two things should not be confused. The invention of man and the impossibility of applying this invention, because there is simply no niche for machines such as the ekranoplan.
    As for the opinion of Western experts. This phrase is essentially fake (meaning the statement of “specialists” that the ship cannot move through water at such a speed). Or they were such specialists. For work on hydrofoils began at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.
    In particular, the HD-4 vessel reached speeds of up to 87 km/h (54 mph), and on September 9, 1919, HD-4 set a world water speed record of 114 km/h (70,86 mph).
    So the experts who wrote this were most likely ignoramuses
  84. 0
    6 May 2020 19: 38
    An interesting article has been posted on the website korabel.ru Viktor Sokolov "You can, but you don't need to".
    A very detailed analysis of the capabilities of ekranoplanes. Puts everything in its place. I recommend.
    https://www.korabel.ru/news/comments/mozhno_no_ne_nuzhno.html
  85. 0
    13 March 2021 21: 19
    I read the article. Complete nonsense from an incompetent author. All his arguments are erroneous due to falsity of sources and incorrect comparisons. It is clear that the author is far from the issue under consideration. The conclusions I drew were the same as ordered. By the way, he has an analogue - a certain Oleg Kaptsov. This is also a similar scribbler-platypus. The sad thing is that some government officials involved in the decision-making process to create ekranoplanes for searching and rescuing people at sea, for mass transportation of passengers with a high level of safety and comfort, for protecting maritime borders and for state defense, read the nonsense of would-be authors and everything believe. Well, just like the American-British elite gets nonsense about Russia from the Internet.
    As a result, we will buy such equipment abroad. Our country has gone through this story more than once.
  86. The comment was deleted.
  87. 0
    16 October 2021 13: 43
    EKRANO PLANS
    One aircraft carrier requires enormous resources in construction, operation, maintenance and disposal, as well as very expensive bases and a squadron of additional security and service ships, but in fact it is only a platform for the delivery, take-off and landing of fighters with a not very long range. An aircraft carrier is not an independent figure, not a subject, but only an object that requires very high costs, which is quite easily tracked and subject to attack and destruction. Minor damage disables the entire platform for a long time.
    An ekranoplan, unlike an aircraft carrier, is an independent figure, an entity that can solve independent problems, and even a squadron of ekranoplanes is much cheaper than one aircraft carrier and does not require such large expenses as one aircraft carrier, and can perform various functions: - attack, rescue, supply, delivery ( landing).
    There were, of course, shortcomings in the experimental operation of ekranoplanes, but any device or system product has such shortcomings. All shortcomings are either eliminated as a result of further work or are leveled out by other developments and improvement of technologies.
    The ekranoplan is much less noticeable even during search and tracking, it is capable of hiding, camouflaging and being in various areas of the world's oceans, without requiring huge supplies; any cargo ship can provide the most necessary things. If one ekranoplan is damaged, the damage is not so significant, and the squadron is capable of performing its assigned tasks.