Military Review

Ho Chi Minh trail. Vietnam Road of Life: Two 1970 Operations

Ho Chi Minh trail. Vietnam Road of Life: Two 1970 Operations

September 11, 1970, Duck To, Vietnam. Battle group loaded on helicopters, operation Tailwind, real photo

At the end of 1970, two operations were carried out in Laos. One was a reconnaissance raid. The second is another attempt to stop supplies on the Trail.

Both used local forces. But the rest of the similarities ended. But according to the results of the end of 1970, the Americans finally got the idea of ​​where they should move on and why.

"Fair wind" for the battle group "Ax"

The Americans could not openly use their troops in Laos. They could conduct reconnaissance there and support other, non-US forces. Their MACV-SOG special forces group, specially created to work on the Trail, regularly conducted reconnaissance operations there and launched strikes aviation. However, for American operations in which it would be necessary to send American soldiers into battle, Laos was closed.

However, the end of 1970 was marked by a deviation from this rule, not the first, but one of a very small number of such deviations. Contrary to usual practice, the Americans planned an intelligence raid against the Vietnamese forces in Laos, which provided for their direct attack. The operation was codenamed Tail wind.

To reduce political risks, the Americans brought in the operation of the so-called battle group “Ax” (Hatchet force). This unit, which was part of the MACV-SOG, from the very beginning of operations on the Trail, initially consisted of military personnel from the South Vietnamese army and the Americans, but later it was based on volunteers from the Thongong ethnic group, inhabitants of the mountainous regions of southern Vietnam. Thuongs have been and remain a discriminated minority. The only ones who could guarantee this group of peoples any rights and protection were Americans. And they did this, preventing the South Vietnamese authorities from pursuing a policy of assimilation, and protecting them from communist rebels, who, seeing the Thyongs as not only an ethnically alien element, but also the minions of the United States (and previously the French), were not shy about their means .

The United States trained the thongs and successfully used them for fighting in the jungle and reconnaissance. So when the decision was made to conduct a raid, it was the thongs that became the basis of the battle group, which was to be thrown into Laos. Organizationally, they were part of the company "B", completely recruited from the thong.

Thuong Rookie, 1966

Americans with their thong wards

The group was led by Captain Eugene McCarley. Together with him, it consisted of 16 Americans and 110 thongs, who had special training and combat experience. The point of the operation was far beyond the zone in which the American special forces could operate, if only for intelligence purposes.

However, the Americans had information that in their area of ​​interest there was an important Vietnamese bunker, which was also used as a command bunker. And the desire to realize intelligence exceeded the risk.

The area where it was necessary to advance was located on the Boloven Plateau, east of Thathen, near the intersection of roads.

Operation Area

September 11, over the Vietnamese Dak To was heard the roar of helicopters. Due to the fact that the casting of special groups was carried out at a long range, it was necessary to use the rare CH-53 in those parts. The danger from fire from the ground should have been taken by the AN-1 Cobra, which had not been used before in Laos either. Shortly after takeoff, the group crossed the border of Vietnam's airspace and headed for the Boloven Plateau.

CH-53 in Vietnam

AN-1 in Vietnam

The operation was developing hard. Three Stallions, under cover of the Four Cobras, each landed three platoon combat groups in the designated area. Helicopters flew away, and special squads neatly moved through the jungle to the target, the area of ​​their whereabouts they knew only approximately. On September 12, the detachment ran into the Vietnamese infantry. A battle ensued. The forces were approximately equal. Wounded immediately appeared. However, for the Americans this was a symbol of the fact that they got where they needed to, and the operation continued.

On the morning of September 13, a special squad was at the Vietnamese camp. During a brutal frontal assault, the camp was captured.

But at the first moment, the Americans did not find anything. It seemed that either the intelligence was mistaken, taking the ordinary stronghold of the Trails as an important command center, or the group attacked the wrong object. But the thongs soon found a disguised passage down to the ground. And it immediately became clear that the reconnaissance was not mistaken, it really was a command post, moreover, it turned out a little later that this command center controlled all logistics along the Lao route 165. Therefore, the bunker was so well camouflaged: only the depth at which it was built, was 12 meters.

Thuong quickly filled up two large drawers with documents, and it was time to evacuate. Now, McCarley had to evacuate faster, flew planes reported about a battalion of Vietnamese in the immediate vicinity of the camp.

McCarley had an evacuation plan that, in his opinion, would prevent the Vietnamese from destroying the entire group due to some kind of accident. He chose three landing sites from which the group was to be evacuated platooned. It was assumed that the Vietnamese would not be enough to kill everyone at the same time; if they cover the site, then one. But first, it was necessary to break away from them, and it was not easy.

The next day was a nightmare for the group: the Vietnamese were not going to leave, not to release a special squad with such valuable information. The Americans had to conduct a night battle with the Vietnamese infantry, without the possibility of retreat.

The group managed to hold out, but by September 14th it was already a group of almost all wounded, who had at least ammunition, exhausted by continuous three-day battles of people, many of whom could not walk from the wounds.

Nevertheless, at a crucial moment, the group managed to conceive. Divided into three platoons, the Americans and their allies reached the landing sites exactly on time. By this time, helicopters appeared. All landing sites were under fire and helicopter crews had to literally pour all the thickets around with tear gas, and only under its cover they managed to take saboteurs on board and fly up. But even so, the last helicopters took off under fire from the Vietnamese infantry from tens of meters. All cars were damaged, and many crew members were injured.

Shortly after takeoff, two helicopters with special forces sequentially came under heavy machine gun fire and were shot down. But the survivability of huge cars helped out. Both cars made emergency landings in the jungle, the Americans escaped after some time picked up other helicopters.

On September 14, the special group returned to Vietnam, successfully delivering important intelligence information about what is happening on the trail. The Americans later claimed that 54 Vietnamese army soldiers had been killed by them. The group itself, upon return, had, according to various estimates, about 70 wounded and 3 killed.

It should be noted that such statistics did not take place on its own, but because of the personal will of an individual - a physician of the sergeant Harry Rose group. Rose during the operation several times pulled the wounded out of the fire, many times personally went into close combat to prevent the Vietnamese from capturing the wounded, being repeatedly wounded himself, did not provide himself with medical care until he finished with the first aid to the other wounded, he fought as a soldier himself, when it was not necessary to provide medical assistance to anyone. He was in the last helicopter, which had already risen from under the fire of VNA soldiers and he, having already been wounded several times, during the take-off, fired with the Vietnamese from the open ramp of the helicopter.

Soon, the helicopter was shot down, and one of the Marines, machine gunners, was seriously wounded in the same line from the ground, which damaged the car. Rose began to provide first aid in the air and did everything in his power to ensure that the shooter survived a hard landing. Then Rose crawled into a burning helicopter several times, pulling out soldiers unable to move.

Presumably, without this person, the number of those killed during the operation would be several times higher. Rose successfully survived the war, was awarded and resigned in the captain's rank.

Rose (center) immediately after returning from surgery, photo taken September 14, 1970

Rose after assignment of a lieutenant rank

Operation "Fair Wind", thus, ended in success, although not without loss.

There is one “dark spot” associated with this operation, namely the details of the use of gas, thanks to which the Americans and Thuongs managed to evacuate from shelling in the last seconds.

In 1998, CNN and Time magazine jointly released television and print reports stating that then, in Laos, soldiers were evacuated not under the cover of tear gas, but under the cover of sarin gas. Allegedly, this was the reason for the success of the operation. Journalists questioned the participants in the operation, and the answers they received hinted that everything was really dirty with tear gas: for example, one of the platoon commanders, Robert van Boeskirk, complained that when gas came to his people by the wind, several of them clogged in convulsions. True, no one died. In addition, the personnel then had health problems that were not caused by either the wounds or the consequences that a person could actually suffer from tear gas (western marking CS).

But the scandal did not receive development: the Pentagon managed to push through the official point of view that it was just tear gas. I must say that, on the one hand, the idea of ​​using sarin looks strange: it was unusual for the Americans, and the troops were clearly not ready for a chemical war.

On the other hand, the testimony of van Boeskirk should be somehow explained, as well as the health effects of many fighters, and it would also be worth explaining how the Vietnamese, who fired massive automatic fire at take-off helicopters from a distance of 50-60 meters, that is, from a pistol distances, in the end they still missed. They knew how to shoot. What hindered?

The answers, apparently, will not be given by anyone.

Tear gas grenades were massively used from helicopters by the US Army in Vietnam and around

Operation "Fair Wind" shows well what enemy VNA would have to deal with on the "Trail" if the United States had the opportunity to act in Laos openly. But another enemy acted against them.

Second attack on Chipone

CIA unit in Savannaket studying failure last raid on Chipone, found nothing better than to arrange the same raid there again, simply with great strength. Now the operation was to be carried out by six local battalions. According to the plan of the operation, it was assumed that one three-battalion convoy would meet with another immediately before the attacked logistics center of the VNA and then, during a joint attack, the Vietnamese base would be destroyed.

Operation Area

On October 19, 1970, the battalions advanced towards the target. The first column left Muang Phalan, having the order to seize the village of Muang Fayn, held by the Vietnamese and Patet Lao, near Chepone. The second column, also of the three battalions, moved towards the Vietnamese strongholds and logistics points east of Chepone.

The first column immediately ran into desertion: one of the battalion commanders did not have time for the operation, because he was having fun with his 17-year-old bride. When they reached Muang Fayn, three battalions trodden on its outskirts and left after a languid exchange of fire with the enemy. On this operation for them is over.

The second column reached the target and entered the battle. A few days after the start of the extension, the convoy destroyed the weakly guarded Vietnamese car fleet, putting dozens of trucks and lots of spare parts and repair equipment on fire. Then the column continued to advance to Chepone.

On November 1, the convoy was ambushed by the VNA, which, prior to the battalion, began to grind militants trained by the CIA. The airplanes caused by the aircraft encountered excellent enemy disguise and heavy fire from the ground. This time, the Vietnamese were not going to just sit under the bombs, and their communications were nearby. As a result, the royalists at the decisive moment simply did not have air support, not at all. Moreover, due to powerful fire from the ground, the removal of the wounded, which the Americans, as a rule, provided for their wards, was also impossible.

On November 4 and 5, US aviation nevertheless came into action, delivering strikes in front of the front edge of the royalists. Under the cover of these attacks, Air America helicopter pilots managed to pull all the wounded from the royalist battalions on the fifth attempt. Freed from the wounded, the royalists fled through the jungle, breaking away from the enemy.

American sources assess the losses of the Vietnamese as “heavy”, but do not give figures, and, in truth, with the exception of the half-blind air strikes that the US Air Force inflicted, which did not have accurate information about the location of the enemy, it is not clear why they should be heavy.

Soon, the royalist troops participating in the operation came under attack from the Vietnamese in the vicinity of Pakse and suffered heavy losses there, attributing to themselves, however, hundreds of killed enemy soldiers.

It was obvious that the CIA was simply not coping with the war in Laos. Against the background of the forces that the agency trained, the different tribal units that the US Army trained in Vietnam were just a model of combat readiness, especially when the Americans themselves fought with them.

Meanwhile, the 1971st year approached.

The United States by that time had embarked on a course of "Vietnamization." Now it should have been sharply deepened for political reasons. Nixon was due to have elections next year. The 71st year was the year when it was necessary to "close" issues related to the ability of the South Vietnamese regime to fight independently. And for this it was necessary to undermine the rebel forces in southern Vietnam. And to do this, finally do something with the "Path". Washington understood that the CIA could not do this “something”, although no one had relieved them of the obligation to conduct a secret war in Laos.

It had to be other forces, and they had to act differently.
Photos used:
US Army, Wikipedia commons
Articles from this series:
Unmarked. Involving the US in the Vietnam War and the role of old bombers
Ho Chi Minh trail. Vietnamese road of life. Part of 1.
Ho Chi Minh trail. Vietnamese road of life. Part of 2.
Ho Chi Minh trail. The first battles in Laos.
At the entrance to the Ho Chi Minh trail. Continuation of battles in the Valley of Pitchers.
Thai mercenaries in the American war. Vietnam and Laos.
Ho Chi Minh trail. Counterattack by Wang Pao and Capture of the Valley of Pitchers.
Ho Chi Minh trail. On the eve of turning points
Ho Chi Minh trail. Tipping battle
Ho Chi Minh trail. Vietnamese road of life. Fights in South Laos

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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U April 4 2020 06: 37 New
    I must say that, on the one hand, the idea of ​​using sarin looks strange: it was unusual for the Americans, and the troops were clearly not ready for a chemical war.
    To use chemical weapons, these are not cylinders of the times of WWI, and to be ready to repel this threat, in my opinion, are very different things. The Americans literally flooded Indochina with "Orange", and then there were some grenades, so this is quite American style.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 April 4 2020 08: 11 New
      I read the articles of the series with great interest. There is a series of good documentaries "Battlefield Vietnam", consisting of 12 films. You can watch it on Youtube.
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. April 4 2020 09: 29 New
        Quote: Snail N9
        I read the articles of the series with great interest.

        The topic is extremely interesting.
        ... But this material is clearly only from the Americans.
        It is as if to study the history of the Great Patriotic War according to the reports of German commanders ...

        At one time, we had a graduate student - the son of a Vietnamese writer. We called him Nguyen.
        He was 37 years old by the end of graduate school. Looked like a boy.
        In the USSR, he entered graduate school as a result of a serious selection among the Vietnamese.

        As he said, they selected from those who served with dignity and was also theoretically savvy.

        So he served as a driver on the Ho Chi Minh trail.
        He said that a "path" is a road in the jungle, which, if you do not travel along it, instantly overgrows, in just a week.
        This applies to the main highway.
        And Vietnam is long, and there were many branches from the main road ...
      2. Kostya Lavinyukov
        Kostya Lavinyukov April 4 2020 18: 59 New
        I've been reviewing a wonderful series of films over and over again since seven years.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 4 2020 09: 20 New
      I agree. Moreover, it is easy to use chemical weapons in an area where officially there are no Americans at all.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 April 4 2020 17: 29 New
        My father subscribed to the journal "Foreign Military Review" in Soviet times. So there, in the numbers for the 60s and early 70s, there were many interesting articles about the Vietnam War, weapons and methods that were used in it.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ April 4 2020 18: 09 New
          Around the same time, my friend’s elder brother, who graduated from Timiryazevka, was stuck in experimental plots in Georgia, where he studied the effects of all defoliants and other chemical rubbish that Americans filled Vietnam with on plants.
    3. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse April 4 2020 22: 33 New
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The Americans literally flooded Indochina with "Orange", and then there were some grenades, so this is quite American style.

      In American, this is a plan for the consequences. The use of sarin practically in its own way implies means of chemical protection previously issued to personnel. There was nothing of the kind.

      Rather, a story in the style of Nord-Ost, they used some kind of non-standard but in theory non-lethal gas. Among their dead and severely injured, it seemed there wasn’t, the composition is kept secret and therefore the fact is denied. But they could really use CS. Someone densely covered and became completely shitty.
  2. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 4 2020 07: 47 New
    And as with the Merikos, the arms were scratched at the expense of a nuclear strike!
    But in exchange for this, thousands of tons of bombs, napalm, chemistry.
    And, in the end, they lost to the armed people.
    In Syria, it will be exactly the same!
  3. lwxx
    lwxx April 4 2020 08: 01 New
    having been repeatedly injured himself
    And in the photo I went straight from the bar. I feel somewhere hmm, inconsistency, to put it mildly. Americans love to drive, their first moon-walkers also climbed out of the descent vehicles, skipping.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 April 4 2020 10: 41 New
      You wrote earlier, you wanted to. Repeatedly wounded, has no dressings. A person who has dragged several dozen people does not look exhausted, smiles and walks on his own. At first it seemed that they were leading him under his arms.
  4. Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 4 2020 09: 17 New
    The Americans later claimed that 54 Vietnamese army soldiers had been killed by them. The group itself, upon return, had, according to various estimates, about 70 wounded and 3 killed.

    It will not be enough. It turns out that the Vietcong did not know how to shoot at all, if, with such "accurately calculated" losses by the Americans, he killed only three attackers.
    Rose during the operation several times pulled the wounded out of the fire, many times personally entered into close combat, to prevent the Vietnamese from capturing the wounded, having been repeatedly injured himself,

    Something in the photo does not look like "repeatedly wounded". It goes by itself. American propaganda nonsense. It took a "hero" and they created him. Hollywood, one word.
  5. Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 4 2020 09: 23 New
    In general, the author has a good series. Due to the inaccessibility of documents from Vietnam, he should critically comment on American data.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr April 4 2020 11: 20 New
      Quote: Aviator_
      Due to the inaccessibility of documents from Vietnam, he should critically comment on American data.

      If you carefully read the text and study what the Americans received, it turns out that in addition to some papers, they didn’t seize or destroy any of the senior Viennese military officers in order to somehow prove the usefulness of the whole operation. Without denying the courage of American special forces, it must be admitted that the losses were large, especially in technology, and the result is scanty. Nothing significant happened in the change of supplies and movement of the Vietnamese, and there were probably a few such points on this trail, and the destruction of one of them hardly affected the course of the war. Although, of course, the Americans have proven that they can carry out complex special operations, and most importantly, respond quickly to changes in the operational situation - this is the upper class, you can’t say anything.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ April 4 2020 11: 28 New
        This conclusion would be good on the part of the author, but it was not. And so - the use of bare-assed (see photo), savages who know the area, ready to surrender to any colonizer for "freedom" is well shown. Reminds the Caucasus of the middle of the XIX century or modern Kurds.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr April 4 2020 11: 39 New
          Quote: Aviator_
          This conclusion would be good on the part of the author, but he was not.

          The author is most likely a journalist who writes on military topics and uses translated materials from foreign media. That is why it is difficult for him to understand and appreciate what professionals immediately see between the lines of such articles, so that he is inaccessible to a deep analysis of such materials.
    2. Korax71
      Korax71 April 4 2020 11: 38 New
      Who told you this about data inaccessibility wink : November 12, 1965 - Battle of Baubang Village (Binh Duong Province) between a battalion of the 1st Infantry Division of the US Army and a reinforced regiment of the 9th Division of the NLF National Liberation Army. According to the book "VIETNAM: THE ANTI-US RESISTANCE WAR FOR NATIONAL SALVATION 1954-1975: MILITARY EVENTS" (Hanoi, 1980), translated into English, the losses of the Americans amounted to about 2040 soldiers killed and wounded, 39 tanks and armored personnel carriers. According to the headquarters of the 3rd Brigade of the 1st Infantry Division on the conduct of Operation Bushmaster I, losses in the battle amounted to 20 killed and 103 wounded. According to additional information (D. Starry, "Mounted Combat in Vietnam"), 5 armored vehicles were lost - armored personnel carriers and self-propelled mortars. Tanks did not participate in the battle.
      There is data wassat only they cause confidence even less than American ones.
      [/ quote] December 4, 1966 - an attack on the Tan Son Nhat airfield. According to the Communist American Failure, edited by Nguyen Kak Vien (Vietnamese Studies No. 20, 1968), the attack and the bombing of the American psychological warfare service building in Saigon incapacitated 600 enemy soldiers, including 400 Americans, destroyed 260 aircraft and 13 units of ground vehicles. According to American data (in particular, R. Fox, "Air Base Defense in the Republic of Vietnam, 1961-1973"), 3 Americans and 3 South Vietnamese were killed while repelling the attack, 15 Americans and 4 South Vietnamese were wounded, there are no irrecoverable losses of aircraft, 20 aircraft were damaged. The names of the fallen Americans: Air Force 2 Class J. Bevich, J. Cole, O. Riddle. According to the available list of names, on the day of December 4, 20 American servicemen were killed in all of Southeast Asia for all reasons. [Quote]
      she is propaganda hi
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ April 4 2020 13: 36 New
        Well, the author would have maliciously analyzed one and the other material, otherwise the author has to do everything. Already regret that + set.
        1. Korax71
          Korax71 April 4 2020 15: 02 New
          Well, with this, that's just the trouble. Well, for example, if we consider the data on the battle for the fire support base "Gold", then at the end of the battle at Shuoich the losses amounted to 33 servicemen killed (including one soldier 2-22 pb died in the incident "friendly fire" on the evening of March 21, after the battle) and 187 wounded, An O-1 aircraft carrier was shot down. One or two M55 anti-aircraft machine-gun mounts were destroyed. 11 M101 howitzers were damaged, 7 of them were repaired within 1966 hours, two were completely destroyed. According to Colonel Garth, not a single tank or armored vehicle was hit by anti-tank weapons, there are no irrecoverable losses of armored vehicles. The official Vietnamese view of the battle is available from three sources: the collections "South Vietnam. Great Victory. Winter 1967 - Spring 1967" and "South Vietnam the largest US operation (February-March 21) "" On March 3, our troops launched a surprise attack against Dongram, destroying one infantry battalion, 72 armored squadrons (consisting of 18 tanks and armored personnel carriers), 10 artillery pieces and 1200 aircraft of various types. seriously battered another infantry battalion. More than 3 enemy soldiers were incapacitated. The 4rd Brigade of the 1000th Infantry Division had to retreat to Zautieng in order to receive a replenishment of 647 people and carry out a reorganization. " counting for several days, as a result, XNUMX killed soldiers of the Nfoyu, who were buried in two large mass graves ah. so analysis is an extremely ungrateful business; as a result, everyone will believe in what they think is right. wassat
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ April 4 2020 15: 07 New
            The question of faith is not here, the one-sided display of military operations with a "multi-wounded hero - a medic" causes some bewilderment. It is clear that everyone will lie, but it was necessary to show this lie from all sides. With comments, which the author does not have.
            1. Korax71
              Korax71 April 4 2020 16: 00 New
              I agree hi although with a medic, it’s all more or less clear in the presentation to the medal of honor, wounds of the back and legs with shrapnel from the burst of an RPG grenade are noted, so most likely the injuries were not deep and not critical, although this does not detract from the fact of heroism. that moment he was not given, for Vietnam he has a cross "for outstanding military service" "purple heart", "bronze star". in 2017 he was nevertheless awarded the Medal of Honor based on the cross for military merit hi hero man soldier
  6. fk7777777
    fk7777777 April 4 2020 10: 49 New
    The Vietnamese would not be prevented by large-caliber snipers, RPOs, more modern grenade launchers, heavy mortars, in general an analogue of the GPGV, they would be very useful for one company, and less hand-to-hand fighting and more than 14,5 mm should be beaten by infantry. Then look at the amers. And so with a spear and 6 trunks, not seriously like that.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 4 2020 13: 34 New
      At that time, snipers were three-line caliber.
    2. Alf
      Alf April 4 2020 23: 06 New
      Quote: fk7777777
      The Vietnamese would not be prevented by large-caliber snipers, RPOs, more modern grenade launchers, heavy mortars, in general an analogue of the GPGV, they would be very useful for one company, and less hand-to-hand fighting and more than 14,5 mm should be beaten by infantry. Then look at the amers. And so with a spear and 6 trunks, not seriously like that.

      But if they had also Almaty, and with the Iskanders, and SU-57 there too ...
  7. kig
    kig April 4 2020 11: 46 New
    Judging by the photo taken "immediately after his return", it is difficult to believe that this man was repeatedly wounded.
  8. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh April 4 2020 12: 35 New
    But what about the myths about diapers, about the fact that Americans are evading close combat,
    sensitive to losses?
    If we replace the Americans with Russians in the same episodes, we would have
    war epic about unprecedented heroism. Like, the assault on Amin’s palace in Afghanistan.
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV April 4 2020 13: 11 New
      And what doubts do you have about the storming of Amin’s palace?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh April 4 2020 15: 23 New
        No, no doubt about it. As well as about these operations.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 4 2020 13: 33 New
      In fact, if you follow the note, it was not American instructors who fought there (in Laos), of whom there was nothing at all, but the local offended tribe, which was once again promised "freedom." "Mtsyri" of Southeast Asia, so to speak.
    3. Korax71
      Korax71 April 4 2020 14: 19 New
      Myths, Alex, they are laughing and usually from all sides of the conflict. Ilyin, a well-known Russian expert in the field of military aviation and head of the TsAGI military aircraft sector: [quote] Within only one year, from February 7, 1965 to February 7, 1966, the Americans lost about 460 combat aircraft in the sky of the DRV, of which 90 fell on the share of the S-75 air defense system (a total of 160 missiles were fired, including only 58 missiles were used for the 70 first downed aircraft). The US mass media demonstrated their "objectivity", reporting the loss of only 1965 aircraft in 275, and the Vietnamese did not lag behind, informing the world about the destruction of 1964 "American vultures" from August 1966 to January 850.
      V. Ilyin. "Phantom" F-4 (Moscow, 2001) [quote]
      That's how it is - the Americans are lying, the Vietnamese are lying, and only Vladimir Ilyin knows the truth. Alas, he does not know that the 275 losses recognized by the Americans in 1965 occurred in both parts of Vietnam (and this is not an “invention” of the “objective” US media, but of Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, who voiced it on January 20, 1966), and specifically in the sky of the DRV, the recognized losses were about a hundred less.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ April 4 2020 15: 10 New
        Head of TsAGI Military Aircraft Sector:

        As far as I am familiar with this office, there is no such sector in TsAGI.
        And the rest I have no complaints about the text of Alexander.
        1. Korax71
          Korax71 April 4 2020 16: 11 New
          Well, it's not my fault repeat so Ilyin appears in some sources: [quote] VLADIMIR EVGENIEVICH ILLIN studied at the Moscow Aviation Institute, graduated from the Moscow State Historical and Archival Institute (MGIAI). He works at ONTI TsAGI, being a leading expert on military aircraft; currently - head of the ONTI sector, editor of TsAGI bulletins “Technical Information” and “Aviation Rocket Technology.” [quote]
          For what I bought, for that I sold it hi
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ April 4 2020 16: 13 New
            Here everything is right, ONTI is a department of scientific and technical information.
            1. Korax71
              Korax71 April 4 2020 16: 18 New
              It’s good when there are understanding people on the site drinks thanks for correcting good
          2. ccsr
            ccsr April 4 2020 17: 13 New
            Quote: Korax71
            so Ilyin appears in some sources

            If he worked in a specific research institute of the Air Force or in the information structures of the GRU General Staff, then everything that he writes could be taken seriously. And so, a reference to an employee of a sector who, at best, received information in a truncated form, can hardly be considered a carrier of information on the assessment of losses given by different parties.
            Quote: Korax71
            TsAGI Bulletin Editor Technical Information and Aviation Rocket Technology.

            I do not think that these are grooved publications, which means there is information from open sources.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ April 4 2020 18: 12 New
              That's right, this is material from open sources.
            2. Korax71
              Korax71 April 4 2020 18: 59 New
              [/ quote] You’re lying as always - in the memoirs of commanders it was repeatedly mentioned that the district called from Moscow on the eve of the Directive, and if you don’t know about it, then this is your problem. [quote]
              Well, you refer to the memoirs, the same way V.E. Ilyin refers to the data of military experts who worked in Vietnam, plus information from the archives. Memoirs, memoirs are also not sources of classified information, but nevertheless you are in your comments on them are operating.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr April 5 2020 12: 04 New
                Quote: Korax71
                Well, you’re referring to memoirs, so V.E. Ilyin refers to the data of military experts,

                You do not understand the difference - the memoirs of generals describe the events in which they themselves participated, and this is confirmed by comparing them with declassified materials of that period. Ilyin uses media materials, and as you can easily see, American and Vietnamese contradict each other. So who to believe?
                Quote: Korax71
                but nevertheless you are opting for them in your comments.

                Because there are sources of information that inspire confidence, and there are doubtful sources of information - first you need to at least learn how to distinguish them.
    4. hohol95
      hohol95 April 4 2020 19: 13 New
      But what about the myths about diapers, about the fact that Americans evade close combat, are sensitive to losses?

      So there were 16 daredevils in the American. Only from the article it is not clear - they were from full-time employees or worked for "long dollars"!
      In 1971, during the Lam Son 719 operation, such daredevils were no longer found!
      1. Korax71
        Korax71 April 4 2020 21: 24 New
        Also not entirely true. For long dollars, the flyers worked in Air American. It was a kind of PMC, some of the pilots, having served their term in our name, got a job in this office. All operations outside South Vietnam were carried out either by "seals" or "green berets" - all were on active duty. In general, there were enough brave souls during the conflict. during the entire conflict was awarded the Medal of Honor (analogue of the Hero of Russia) -257 army-171, kmp-62, naval forces-10, air force-14.
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 April 4 2020 23: 06 New
          Medal of Honor (analogue of the Hero of Russia) -257 man-army-171, kmp-62, navy-10, air force-14.

          Let them take a pie from the shelf!
    5. Alf
      Alf April 4 2020 23: 10 New
      Quote: voyaka uh
      But what about the myths about diapers, about the fact that Americans are evading close combat,
      sensitive to losses?

      I would say that the American solger of the late 40s-early 70s and 90s-2000s are completely different soldiers. For all its drawbacks, US Army special forces are a very serious adversary. And throwing hats does not lead to good.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 April 5 2020 23: 45 New
        For all its drawbacks, US Army special forces are a very serious adversary. And throwing hats does not lead to good.

        No one throws a hat! Only the question immediately arises - if the American instructors were all of themselves proffies and trained "southern" as their own soldiers. Why, immediately after the withdrawal of the American ground units, the "northern" ones almost instantly crushed the "southern" ones? After all, the Russians were preparing them - to attack in large masses, not to look at the losses. "Throw corpses", as during the Second World War! And the Air Force did not support the "northern" on the scale of the American Air Force, and the "southern" abandoning everything "disappeared into the fog" ... hi
    6. Threaded screw
      Threaded screw 8 June 2020 12: 49 New
      But what about the diapers myths
      The Americans fought very well, from the first day of fighting.
      that Americans evade close combat
      And this is true, why put a soldier, when you can fill the enemy with fire, well, if it didn’t work, then close combat, this is not cowardice, this is a well-considered tactic.
      sensitive to losses
      This is also true, American society turned out to be especially unprepared when every day began by looking at the list of 20 year old guys who were meaninglessly killed, but this is typical of any normal society.
      war epic about unprecedented heroism.
      Didn’t get enough sleep, or just don’t stand feet got up?
  9. iouris
    iouris April 4 2020 14: 24 New
    The conclusion should be this: the Vietnamese won a crushing victory (first of all, moral-volitional) over an incredibly physically powerful enemy.
  10. Vivan
    Vivan April 4 2020 17: 02 New
    Thyong (Thượng = upper, living in the mountains) is the common name for the ethnicities of the central plateau (such as Eder, Banari, Zarai, Rakley, etc.). The Vietnamese, Lao, Burmese, Thais belong to the Mongoloid race, and the Thongs are closer to the Khmers, Malays, and Indonesians.
    Thyongs trust completely, but only once - if for some reason you have not justified their trust at least once, then they will never trust you for anything. Therefore, during the war there were villages that were completely for the Communists, and there were villages that fought to the end on the side of the Americans. Thuong is impossible to convince.
  11. gorenina91
    gorenina91 April 5 2020 06: 12 New
    -In general, for me personally ... it was and remains a mystery that ...- how the Americans fought in Vietnam ..
    -No, everything is clear about the American Air Force ...- But how all these individual American ground units fought somewhere in the jungle, away from their bases, with virtually no support ...
    -Some helicopters that are a great target for even Kalashnikov’s assault rifle ... not to mention RPGs ...- Or the Viet Cong didn’t really know how to shoot, as all American war fighters constantly show about the Vietnam War ...- or what then ???
    -It is real ...- the Viet Cong are well-armed ...- AK, RPK machine guns, DShK machine guns, RPGs, anti-personnel mines, hand grenades ...- even that’s enough — wage war in their native jungle and they’re familiar with the climate .. . -American soldiers who were pulled out of quite comfortable cities and towns from places where the climate is mostly good mild continental ...- and put in ...- for thousands of kilometers into tropical malaria swamps, where there are a lot of reptiles, clouds of insects poisonous reptiles (snakes, spiders, phalanges); where there is a disgusting humid climate, disgusting swampy water, tropical fevers, where you can even lie down on the ground and you can only with great caution ... -yes, even without any war, you just can’t survive there ... -No, personally I don’t call feel sorry for the Americans ...- they climbed into Vietnam ...- no one called them there ... = Just personally, I am impassively stating a fact ...
    -Yes and more ...- Well, how many Amer soldiers could carry cartridges, medicines, necessary equipment and other things necessary ??? -Only for a very short battle ...- and the entire ammunition is finished ...- And the supply of food and water ??? -It was about hot food -and there was no question ...- only dry rations, which also quickly disappear (and given the constant enormous physical exertion) ...- Yes, just quenching thirst ...
    -By the way ...- the fact is always striking ...- how all the soldiers (American, Canadian, British, French, Italian, etc. ...- how they are relatively "indifferent" to food ... -Well , just --- like robots for whom it doesn't matter ... - some kind of "recharging" is needed ... - that's all ....
    -And as far as in Russians it sits right at the genetic level (it sits in the bios itself) ...- sits directly physical horror to hunger, because of which food is constantly one of the most "constantly appearing important factors" ...- Probably all the tragic history of Russia has developed such a feeling that even several generations are not able to destroy it ...
    - But, if we go back to the Vietnam War, then all these American attempts at military operations in the Vietnamese rear should have ended ... - the encirclement of American units by the Viet Cong, the complete extermination of the Americans (or taking them prisoner, etc.) ... - Well , the Americans ran out of cartridges, grenades ... - yes, it all ended ... - how to fight ??? - Or even before this "end" - the Vietcong simply lured the Americans into a trap and exterminated everyone ... - and so everywhere ... - Isn't that so ??? -And helicopters flew to the rescue ... -and the helicopters knocked everything down and set them on fire in the air ... -Because they flew at a very low altitude, over the impenetrable jungle ...- just wonderful slow-moving large targets ... -what are they all not destroyed ???
    -It turns out that the Americans fought not so badly ...- since this did not happen ... -American soldiers had the tenacity to climb these impenetrable jungles, and even fight there ... with ghosts ... -Well, some tribes helped them; but these Mai tribes would have slammed the Americans, if they had seen that they were worthless weak soldiers ... -Yes, these savages themselves would have killed American soldiers and robbed them ... -So, the Americans were not so bad ...
    - Personally, I have already incurred all the hatred of those pseudo patriots. that I am allegedly "praising" the Americans ...
    -But, really ... in the jungle, few will be able to fight with crappy capricious M-16 rifles, which can only be cleaned well in comfortable conditions, and not in the mud and marshy slush ...- Yes, and. if the cartridges are over and the food is over ...- And all the support. is some kind of helicopters that they themselves can easily shoot down ... how many will you get ... ... but they fought and didn’t give up ... -So not so the bad American soldiers ...
    1. Sardanapalus
      Sardanapalus April 5 2020 07: 45 New
      And they would have fought further. Only the goal was vague (to protect South Vietnam from the North, without occupation and waging a large-scale land war in North Vietnam). Plus also "useful" and .... you ** in the form of a hippie in your rear (the dawn of the hippie came just at the peak of the war)
  12. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 7 2020 02: 32 New
    I am very pleased that I did not read the article as soon as it came out. And now, cool comments have appeared.
    I learned about films, I'll start watching this self-insulated month.
  13. saygon66
    saygon66 April 7 2020 15: 56 New
    - - Ah yes the orderly! hi