Vlasovites - the dark spot of our history

On the eve of the 75th anniversary of the Victory in World War II, the discussion revived on the role of the Russian Liberation Army (ROA) General Vlasov in battles against the Red Army.

Behind the propaganda screen

The new generation of historians, relying on facts only known to them, united the traitors of the ROA with collaborators of all stripes, including units formed by Germans from Russian emigrants, and made their nasty conclusion about a certain Second Civil War.

Under this army, about 1200 thousand people from Russia and the USSR are now written down and on the basis of "new" numbers they are trying to give out the theory of a kind of civil confrontation with Stalin, which made people stand under the Nazi banners and fight the Red Army.

One combines official historiography and the new "carriers" stories". Both groups call about the same share of Russians in Vlasov’s ROA - 35-45%. That is, in the Goebbels-advertised Russian Liberation Army, the Russians themselves were in the minority. Yes, it was no longer required for the propaganda screen of the guardians of the “liberation of Russia from communism” warring with Stalin.

In fact, they didn’t really fight with the Red Army. The main goal pursued by the Nazis in the formation of the ROA was propaganda. Like, look - the Russians are ready to fight on our side against Bolshevism.

The ROA received its “baptism of fire” only in February 1945, when its strike group, consisting of three platoons, together with the Hitler troops took part in battles with the 230th RKKA Rifle Division, which took up defense in the Oder area.

Meanwhile, the history of the ROA has been going on since December 1942. It was then that the traitor generals Vlasov and Baersky (he rose to the rank of colonel in the Red Army. The Germans gave him a new rank) asked the leadership of the Third Reich to form an army to “liberate Russia from communism”. In fact, that’s how the Germans themselves arranged it, who decided to create a propaganda campaign from the surrendered Soviet general. And the general vividly picked up the idea.

The so-called Smolensk Declaration was even prepared. It contained the appeal of the “Russian Liberation Committee” located in Smolensk to the Soviet people. The stated goal of the committee was the fight against communism.

The proposal did not impress Hitler himself at all. He had other plans for Russia. Hitler did not see her free, independent and independent, as was shown in the appeal of the Smolensk committee.

Nevertheless, after the Smolensk declaration, all immigrants from Russia who fought in the Hitlerite ranks (mainly representatives of the white emigration) began to be called military personnel of the Russian Liberation Army.

From the paper army to the “third force” against the USSR

This army was listed only on paper. The first division of the ROA appeared in the late spring of 1943. Loudly called the First Guards ROA Brigade, it brought together 650 volunteers from Soviet prisoners of war and emigrants.

The task of the brigade included security functions (therefore, it was dressed in the form of an SS) and the fight against partisans in the Pskov region. The Germans did not fully trust the Vlasov army. After the defeat of the Nazis near Kursk, fermentation began in it.

And then another unit formed from prisoners of war (the 1st Russian national brigade of the SS "Druzhina") was almost in full force, taking with it 10 artillery pieces, 23 mortars, 77 machine guns, a small-arms weapon, 12 radio stations and other equipment, went over to the partisans and began to fight against soldiers of the Wehrmacht.

After that, the Vlasov brigade was disarmed and disbanded. Officers were even placed under house arrest. Then they changed their minds and sent everyone to France, away from the Eastern Front and contact with the partisans.

Only by the end of 1944, Vlasov managed to form (of those who already had nothing to lose) the first full-fledged ROA division of 18000 military personnel with heavy artillery weapons, armored vehicles (ten self-propelled guns and nine tanks T-34). This included units of various kinds of collaborators who had retreated with the Nazis from the USSR, emigrants, volunteers from prisoners of war.

The goals of the "liberators" have also changed. In November 1944, they established the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia (KONR) in Prague, which claims to be an exiled government. General Vlasov simultaneously became the Chairman of the Committee and the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, who formed as an independent Russian national army, connected with Nazi Germany only by allied relations.

The Allies, through the Third Reich Ministry of Finance, allocated a credit line to the ROA, reimbursed “as much as possible”. With these funds, several more compounds were formed, which had grown to 1945 thousand people by April 120.

This growth was driven by new political goals. Vlasov planned to use the ROA as a "third force" in the anticipated confrontation of the United States and Britain with the Soviet Union at the end of the war.

In January, the ROA even declared neutrality towards the United States and Great Britain. By March, she acquired her own sleeve insignia and cockade. External attributes distanced itself from the Nazi soldiers. Although it was precisely during this period that Vlasov’s army became involved in active hostilities against the Red Army.

For example, the already mentioned 1st ROA Infantry Division fought on the Erlengof bridgehead as part of the 9th German army. So, if any of the fashionable historians saw the Second Civil War in the Patriotic War, let him know: it was fought on the western bank of the Oder River, in alliance with completely different “citizens”.

The result of the Vlasov betrayal is known. After the war, two-thirds of the composition of the ROA were transferred by the Western Allies to the USSR, where they were sent to camps. Six leaders of the Vlasov army and the self-proclaimed Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia, by a court decision, were hanged in the courtyard of Butyrka prison.

The betrayal of General Vlasov and his accomplices has become a dark spot in the history of our Great War. Therefore, the attempts of unscrupulous historians to imagine black as white in the eyes of people who know the real history of the war and its heavy price are countless and futile.

Comments

[Bykov.]

What else is OUR spot ?! Traitors and enemies of the people - that’s all you need to know about them.

[Insurgent]

After the war, two-thirds of the composition of the ROA were transferred by the Western Allies to the USSR, where they were sent to camps. Six leaders of the Vlasov army and the self-proclaimed Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia, by a court decision, were hanged in the courtyard of the Butyrka prison.

Yes, the allies already began to unite ...

How I stole General Vlasov

Mikhail Ivanovich Yakushov
https://aif.ru/archive/1645493

Note - STORED ! The "allies" ...

In the MORNING on May 15, 1945, I, the commander of a machine gun battalion of the 162nd Panzer Brigade, left for reconnaissance in a zone controlled at that time by American troops. The case took place in Czechoslovakia, near the village of Brezhi. Vlasov’s major forces were concentrated in the American zone, and all the previous night our brigade commander Colonel Mishchenko conducted unsuccessful negotiations with them on the surrender.

The Americans then treated us well, they let our car through without much questioning. Driving past the forest, I noticed a group of people in German uniform. Despite the warnings of my driver, Andreev approached them. An officer spoke to me, who turned out to be the commander of the battalion of the 1st division of the Vlasovites, captain Kuchinsky. I began to agitate him not to surrender to the Americans, but to switch to our side.

After a short consultation with his officers, Kuchinsky built a battalion and ordered it to move into the territory occupied by the Red Army. A little later, we learned that an artillery regiment and a sapper battalion of the same division moved forward to surrender. Meanwhile, Kuchinsky and I noticed a small convoy of cars moving west, accompanied by two American Willis. I asked: who is this? Kuchinsky replied that this was the division headquarters.

We were able to overtake the column only after forty minutes: the Vlasovites had more powerful cars than ours. We turned across the road and forced them to stop. The infamous General Bunyachenko, the commander of the 1st division of the Vlasovites, got out of one of the cars. Seeing Kuchinsky, he cursed him and said: "Scoundrel, he has already crossed over ..."

Kuchinsky told me that General Vlasov himself often travels with the headquarters of the 1st division. Several times I walked along the column, urging the drivers to go surrender to the Red Army. One of them advised to pay attention to the huge black Skoda. Approaching her, I saw in the cabin, not counting the driver, one woman and two men. About the woman, I later found out that she was the "front-line wife" of General Vlasov, and the men turned out to be the head of counterintelligence of the 1st division of the Vlasovites Mikhalchuk and Vlasov's personal translator Rossler.

I opened the rear side door and took the interpreter out of the car, intending to inspect the interior. At that moment, a man in glasses, without shoulder straps, leaned out from under a pile of blankets. When asked who he was, he answered: "General Vlasov." Out of surprise, I turned to him "comrade general", although what a comrade he is ...

Vlasov was also clearly taken aback. However, he soon came to his senses, got out of the car and, ignoring me, went to the Americans - to ask them to contact the army headquarters by radio. Soon another Willys drove up to our column, where American officers were sitting. I told them the same thing that I would say to anyone now: General Vlasov broke his military oath, so he must appear before our court.

Fortunately for me, the Americans turned out to be combined arms officers, and not counterintelligence officers - otherwise history could have received a completely different development... Seeing that there would be no resistance from the Americans, I pretended that I was going back with Vlasov to the headquarters of the American division. Sitting behind Vlasov in his Skoda, I ordered the driver to turn around and drive forward. While the rest of the convoy's cars were turning, we managed to drive quite far.

Vlasov tried to tell the driver where to go, but the driver, realizing what was happening, no longer listened to him. The general felt that something was wrong and on the shore of a beautiful lake, where the car slowed down a little, tried to jump out on the move. However, I managed to grab him by the collar and, holding the pistol to his temple, said: "One more move, and I will shoot you." After that, he behaved calmly.

Moving without a map, we soon got lost. Fortunately, we came across an American post. For a long time they could not understand each other: it so happened that there was not a single translator nearby. In the end, the head of the post found a soldier, a Pole by descent, from whom we easily found out where the Red Army units were ... At 8 o’clock in the evening I handed Vlasov to the commander of the 25th Panzer Corps, Major General Fominykh. I didn’t see Vlasov anymore.

As far as I know, Kuchinsky and two Vlasov drivers who helped us (Dovgas and Komzolov) were later released from criminal liability and even awarded the Orders of the Patriotic War. I was awarded the Order of Suvorov II degree. The same order was awarded to our brigade and corps commanders. In addition, the chief of counterintelligence "Smersh" and the operative, who were not even close when Vlasov was arrested, received awards.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Stas157

They tried to destroy the USSR under the Vlasov flag in 1942-1945, but it turned out only in 1991.

Learn the story.

"Vlasov flag"

[Stas157]

Quote: Insurgent

Learn history. "Vlasov flag"

Sorry, I didn’t understand your objection. What part did you and I split up because Vlasov had some other flag, or that WWII veterans would have torn for it in 1945?

[Insurgent]

Quote: Stas157

Sorry, I didn’t understand your objection. Where did you and I split up, did Vlasov have any other flag or that WWII veterans would have torn for it in 1945?

In which place ? Yes, in many ...

Memoirs of a Russian German, an officer in the service of the Wehrmacht, seconded to A.A. Vlasov V. Shtrik-Shtrikfeldt “Against Stalin and Hitler”, published in 1993

“Rosenberg (Alfred Rosenberg, one of the main war criminals of fascist Germany, engaged in propaganda. - M. Ch.) Was interested in the issue of the flag (for Vlasovites.). The Romanov flag with an eagle and white-blue-red colors were, of course, rejected by him (since no one from the ruling elite of Nazi Germany had ever thought of reconstructing the Russian Empire!). On the contrary, Rosenberg liked the blue St. Andrew’s cross on a white background, conceived as a small shield on a red banner. ” Or: “Historical Russian national colors - white-blue-red - were banned." Above the Dobendorf camp, in which the formation of Vlasov’s formations took place, "... next to the German flag ... a blue Andreevsky cross fluttered on a white cloth." Against this background, the lines of one pamphlet (published already at Moscow State University!) Will seem somewhat strange, where the author very vaguely, maybe even timidly, writes about the existence of his banner at the ROA: “All Russian emigration continued to consider the white-blue-red flag a national shrine . (...) Andreevsky flag finally became the same national. It is possible that General A.A. borrowed his symbolism from the white emigration. Vlasov, creating the ROA - Russian Liberation Army. ” And the reader is at a loss: so what kind of symbolism did Vlasov use? White-blue-red flag or St. Andrew? Or both at the same time? Not a single photo has preserved for us the image of the Vlasovites under the “demon,” and vice versa, the sleeve insignia was the heraldic Spanish shield with a red border and St. Andrew’s flag in it. These are the ups and downs of the historical fate of the slandered white-blue-red and “real Vlasov” St. Andrew’s flag ...

And this is only a small fraction of the materials that give an idea of ​​what really is and how it was then.

[Avior]

Not a single photo has preserved for us the image of Vlasovites under the “demon”

for the sake of justice, not quite right
one way or another, the Vlasov movement, to one extent or another, was used along with the St. Andrew cross
photos of Vlasovites with tricolor exist

tricolor was used in Vlasov symbolism in awards, for example

So you can’t say that they didn’t use
in the anthem of the Vlasovites "We walk in wide fields" the tricolor as a symbol is also mentioned

... we go, the flag above us is three-colored,
The song is flowing through the native fields.
Our chorus is picked up by the winds
And they carry to the Moscow domes ....

The armored chevron of the Russland division is a tricolor, although Russland was not formally included in the ROA, but this is the case that there is not much difference.
So, formally, there is no doubt that the Vlasovites tricolor nevertheless used
But it is clear that this is not a reason to consider him a symbol of betrayal

[last astronaut]

,, formally there is no doubt the Vlasovites still used the tricolor But it is clear that this is not a reason to consider it a symbol of betrayal,

I agree.

LGBT people chose the rainbow as their symbol. But this does not mean at all that everyone who looks at the rainbow and rejoice is gay.

[Tatyana]

Vlasovites - the dark spot of our history

The conversation about the Vlasovites in the light of the current - post-Soviet - history is not very simple for the current government. Namely.

Speaking about the fact that the Vlasovites are the DARK spot of our history, we must not forget about the DARK spots of the Russian Orthodox Church - the collaboration of the Orthodox clergy in the USSR occupied by Germans. Those. about the dark spots of the Russian Orthodox Church, which collaborated with the Vlasovites and German occupiers during the Second World War.
Still in official publications about the Second World War, the fact is ignored that one of the main reasons for the defeat of the Red Army in the initial period of the war was the successful activity of the German special services. The religious policy of the Third Reich was carried out systematically, thoughtfully, according to pre-worked out schemes and programs. In the occupied Soviet territories, numerous churches of the Russian Orthodox Church were opened.
In connection with the organization of operations to carry out Operation Barbarossa in the occupied territories On July 2, 1941, the Chief of the Security Police and SD Heydrich pointed out to the supreme commanders of the SS and Security Police: “Against the aspirations of the Orthodox Church, to extend its influence to the masses, do nothing. On the contrary, in every possible way to promote them, moreover ... to avoid the unity of the church. Also, do not impede the formation of religious sects. ”
At the same time, Hitler did not think about any revival of the Russian Orthodox Church itself, as well as Orthodoxy in the occupied territories of Soviet Russia, namely, it used the Russian Orthodox Church’s clergymen, the blind faith of the people in God and the temporary revival of the administrative apparatus of the Russian Orthodox Church in the occupied territories of the USSR in the form of “ soft ”German power for the decomposition of the state forming the historical people and the geopolitical disappearance of Russia itself.

ROC on the way to the great Victory. May 9, 2015

[Tatyana]

Vlasovites - the dark spot of our history

And now "Vlasovism" through clericalization in the Russian Federation among the collaborators in power and the ROC is not only gaining momentum in the country, but also does not promise anything good to the common people of Russians in the future.
It should not be forgotten that the historical Orthodox meme “For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!”, Which arose even under Peter I, also existed among the Germans during the Second World War / WWII on a brass cross with the motto “Mit Gott für König und Vaterland” ("With God for the king and the Fatherland").
And both of these mottos reflect BLIND FAITH in God, i.e. to otherworldly power; the blind devotion of believers to the leader of the state as "the governor of God" on earth and only then, last but not least, devotion for the interests of their people and their native land and the Fatherland - for the homeland of their fathers!
Somehow, few people pay attention to it now.

And since the gods, monarchs and Fatherland among believers were and are different in different historical eras in different countries, the essence of the administrative religious apparatus of the church and its CHURCH oligarchy has always been the same - namely, it is the preservation and reproduction of oneself LOVED in as a commercial-ideological RELIGIOUS corporation - and with any social system and in any country - in the world in history, the so-called "Religious" wars.
T.O. religion and the church in the municipality in no way carry civil peace in a multiconfessional and multinational country.

After the overthrow of the Soviet regime, in which the church and religion stood at the margins of public life and did not have a noticeable influence in society, the Russian Orthodox Church began to take the first steps to strengthen its position. The bourgeois state quickly realized the need for the church as one of the main institutions of the system for enslaving the people, as a kind of painkiller, "opium for the people"
And right now, the merger of the church and the state is still in the secular country under the Constitution of the Russian Federation.
Clericalization, in particular, includes:
- the introduction of courses on the study of religion in school education,
- transfer of STATE property to the disposal of church organizations,
- financing of the church and its ministers at the expense of the state;
- The adoption of laws for insulting religious feelings and the formation of Orthodox squads and patrols.

As a result, clericalization, as such, always serves to build an oligarchic religious-police state in the country.

[bober1982]

You have a very illiterate comment, and a very long one, you need to speak shorter.

Quote: Tatiana

It should not be forgotten that the historical Orthodox meme “For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!”, Which arose even under Peter I, also existed among the Germans during the Second World War / WWII on a brass cross with the motto “Mit Gott für König und Vaterland” ("With God for the king and the Fatherland").

Simply "masterpiece"
The historical Orthodox meme, as you put it, did not arise during the reign of Peter I, in his order before the Battle of Poltava this motto sounded somewhat different than what you voiced.
In final form - For faith, Tsar and Fatherland!, the motto was framed by Admiral Shishakov during the Patriotic War of 1812, which rallied the Russian people during the Napoleonic invasion.
The cockade of Russian folk militias of 1812 represented a cross with the inscription - For Faith and the King, and the Prussian militias, following the example of the Russians, had a cockade, a cross with the inscription - With God for the king and the Fatherland.

[Tatyana]

Quote: bober1982

The historical Orthodox meme, as you put it, did not arise during the reign of Peter I, in his order before the Battle of Poltava this motto sounded somewhat different than what you voiced.

Yes, the final motto is "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!" Peter the Great sounded somewhat differently, namely "For faith, me and the fatherland!"

And what does that change? Absolutely nothing changes in its essence, but would only lengthen my comment even more.

And then, what's the difference, what was the historical transformation of this meme from the initial to its FINAL form, which has steadily survived to this day?

[bober1982]

Quote: Tatiana

namely "For faith, me and the fatherland!"

Warriors! Here came the hour that should decide the fate of the Fatherland. And so you should not think that you are fighting for Peter, but for the State handed to Peter, for your kind, for the Fatherland, for our Orthodox faith and the Church

[Tatyana]

This is in the document. And during the festive feast after the victory in the toast of Peter the Great?

[bober1982]

Hello, the one who loves God, me and the Fatherland is just a toast of Peter

[Tatyana]

Quote: bober1982

Hello, the one who loves God, me and the Fatherland is just a toast of Peter

So what? Even if this is so, Peter said little or not intelligibly, so that historians would not attribute to him the primacy in the formation of this meme "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!"

And so, of course, thank you from me for this historical and very interesting clarification!

[bober1982]

And, my respect for you, I wouldn’t get involved, I’ll tell you frankly, but your comment made me angry, I could not restrain myself. But, resourceful, my respect.

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Tatiana

Vlasovites - the dark spot of our history

The conversation about the Vlasovites in the light of the current - post-Soviet - history is not very simple for the current government. Namely.

Speaking about the fact that the Vlasovites are the DARK spot of our history, we must not forget about the DARK spots of the Russian Orthodox Church - the collaboration of the Orthodox clergy in the USSR occupied by Germans. Those. about the dark spots of the Russian Orthodox Church, which collaborated with the Vlasovites and German occupiers during the Second World War.
Still in official publications about the Second World War, the fact is ignored that one of the main reasons for the defeat of the Red Army in the initial period of the war was the successful activity of the German special services. The religious policy of the Third Reich was carried out systematically, thoughtfully, according to pre-worked out schemes and programs. In the occupied Soviet territories, numerous churches of the Russian Orthodox Church were opened.
In connection with the organization of operations to carry out Operation Barbarossa in the occupied territories On July 2, 1941, the Chief of the Security Police and SD Heydrich pointed out to the supreme commanders of the SS and Security Police: “Against the aspirations of the Orthodox Church, to extend its influence to the masses, do nothing. On the contrary, in every possible way to promote them, moreover ... to avoid the unity of the church. Also, do not impede the formation of religious sects. ”
At the same time, Hitler did not think about any revival of the Russian Orthodox Church itself, as well as Orthodoxy in the occupied territories of Soviet Russia, namely, it used the Russian Orthodox Church’s clergymen, the blind faith of the people in God and the temporary revival of the administrative apparatus of the Russian Orthodox Church in the occupied territories of the USSR in the form of “ soft ”German power for the decomposition of the state forming the historical people and the geopolitical disappearance of Russia itself.

ROC on the way to the great Victory. May 9, 2015

Madam, you do not get carried away nonsense !!!!

[Moon]

Quote: Avior

So, formally, there is no doubt that the Vlasovites tricolor nevertheless used
But it is clear that this is not a reason to consider him a symbol of betrayal

The Ukrainian flag is similar. However, everyone here considers it purely emotionally unforgivable.

[Catfish]

I believe that you are right in the basis, but why argue about the flag in general. These guys near Lugansk hardly remembered Vlasov and the flag under which he fought.

[RVAPatriot]

We split up in the place that you don’t know history ... If one traitor took the historical flag of his loyal fatherland, then the others should reject this flag ??? Flag of Russia, Russian Empire !!!! The insurgent is right, learn history, or try to prove your conclusions logically

[gsev]

Quote: Insurgent

Learn the story.

As far as I know, Peter 1 used the red-white-blue flag before the Battle of Narva. Presumably during this battle this flag of the Russian army was captured by the Swedes. However, the Swedes did not identify it as a Russian state and military flag. It is kept in a Swedish museum as the flag of an unknown region of the Russian state. Peter 1 no longer sent troops into battle under this flag, believing that it did not bring good luck ... Russian soldiers or their allies went into battle under such a flag only in the Russian-Turkish war during the liberation of Bulgaria. This flag was actively used by the NTS organization. This organization called for the outbreak of civil conflicts in Russia. Famous for their slogan "Communists for the pitchfork." Another symbol of the NTS was a trident, which has now become a symbol of Ukrainian statehood. The NTS members collaborated with the Germans in the fight against the partisans, on their behalf the United States conducted propaganda in Afghanistan among Soviet soldiers. For the first time this flag was raised in the USSR, apparently by the NTSO member Evdokimov, at one of the rallies before the collapse of the USSR. That is, it is a trade Russian flag. Apparently Yeltsin was advised him as a symbol of Russia's renunciation of the status of a great military power.

[A good one]

Quote: Stas157

USSR tried to destroy under the Vlasov flag in 1942-1945, but it turned out only 1991. And now they also drape the "hated" Mausoleum.

In 1945, veterans would tear those who put IT on the symbol of victory.

No need to cling to and put on the guise of a historical wise guy and no need to earn a musty authority, the same veterans would recognize in you an individual with running eyes, but would crush with a tarpaulin boot as a bilge ship and trench ....

[alekseykabanets]

Veterans would not bashfully hide Lenin's mausoleum under the flags of the interim government, they did not fight for this, And Vlasov, like Kolchak, Krasnov, and other current "lost chances" of Russia, are only accomplices of external enemies, who were our people. ..to be from the high bell tower.

[1970mk]

This photo, as well as the avatar "75" on the site, is a complete rewriting of history. There are simply no Soviet paraphernalia of victory. Polls "Russia won in the Second World War" .. The fact that the Soviet people won the Second World War are generally silent .... Mockery of history in its purest form.

[Looking for]

they didn’t tear. they just shot them. !!!!

[Boratsagdiev]

You substitute concepts - this is not the Vlasov flag, but the flag used by the Vlasov people (like others).
And the flag is just the same Russian.
It is a pity that there are "singers" on the site ... and it is noticeable.

[gsev]

Quote: Insurgent

Mikhail Ivanovich Yakushov

As far as I know, the rest of the general ROA of the USA without any problems extradited Stalin from their camps. The United States was more interested in Abwehr agents and nationalists from the outskirts of Russia. Moreover, this interest arose no earlier than the fall of 1945, when the United States realized that the USSR was preventing the United States from dominating Asia and Europe.

[Svarog]

Quote: Bulls.

What else is OUR spot ?!

Well, whose..none of the Germans? In this case, it is our and the younger generation that should know how to treat them, namely, as traitors and enemies of the people .. Actually, the enemies of the people are now completely in power .. But to begin with, at least Gorbachev was assessed, there is much more damage from him was than from the Vlasovites ..

[Okolotochny]

Actually, the enemies of the people are now completely in power ..

Oh, the sectarians pulled themselves up.

[Svarog]

Quote: Okolotochny

Actually, the enemies of the people are now completely in power ..

Oh, the sectarians pulled themselves up.

Self-critical

[Stas157]

Quote: Okolotochny

Oh, sectarians pulled themselves up.

Are you to yourself and the Order of Torquemada? Aren't you ashamed to remind you of this?

[Okolotochny]

Stasig svarogi, you can't be clever? It's time for you to go to the psychoneurological clinic, with the whole sect, in every article you see "evil Putin" You are not tired in different articles on different topics to describe your nightly fears?

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Okolotochny

You are not tired in different articles on different topics to describe your nightly fears?

if so ... one whining everywhere like a carbon paper ... no variety !!!

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Svarog

Well, whose..none of the Germans?

In the history of almost any state there are examples of renegades.

Quote: Svarog

Actually, the enemies of the people are now completely in power ..

Yes, a vivid example of "patriotism" by the Nashists - they cut down the loot, and over the hill. It’s scary if a really big war starts, because with such "patriots" it will be worse than in the First World War.

Quote: Okolotochny

Oh, the sectarians pulled themselves up.

This is your sect, Putin's witnesses. I hope you will be banned soon.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Svarog

Well, whose..none of the Germans?

In the history of almost any state there are examples of renegades.

Quote: Svarog

Actually, the enemies of the people are now completely in power ..

Yes, a vivid example of "patriotism" by the Nashists - they cut down the loot, and over the hill. It’s scary if a really big war starts, because with such "patriots" it will be worse than in the First World War.

Quote: Okolotochny

Oh, the sectarians pulled themselves up.

This is your sect, Putin's witnesses. I hope you will be banned soon.

C'mon, the Tollinist, greetings from Samara, you will surely be the first burgamist of your own free will, you will feel a lot of anger and you want to live, and not just live, but exist. Under the pebble, under the blade of grass. Are the kids like yours, haven’t they sent their dad away yet?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

you’ll definitely be the first burgamist of your own free will,

Unlike you, the "laurels" of the Nashists do not tempt me, I do not consider my future in any scenario from the future of my Motherland. Burgomasters and policemen will be people like you, who are ready to trade in conscience and their own people for 30 pieces of silver, whitening the spoiled power.
The question is how about a fellow countryman - in Samara are people happy with Putin? In what circles do you rotate, do you serve at EP headquarters? I've been talking with the guys from Samara quite often, there will be Tryndets in the next elections.

Quote: Rusland

Are the kids like yours, haven’t they sent their dad away yet?

No need to judge someone else's family on their own. Anyway, when in the absence of arguments people try to hook an opponent through children, this is a direct indicator of a person’s rottenness.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Unlike you, the "laurels" of the Nashists do not tempt me, I do not consider my future in any scenario from the future of my Motherland.

This is for the time being. Hands are ready to warm, there is a hypocrisy.

Quote: Ingvar 72

The question is how about a fellow countryman - in Samara are people happy with Putin?

Not all and many of them.

Quote: Ingvar 72

In what circles do you rotate, do you serve at EP headquarters?

Do not wait, but I saw a gray mouse in you, evil, which is far from the barn.

Quote: Ingvar 72

No need to judge someone else's family on their own.

No, I read it somehow. Children grew up and there is no contact with dad.

Quote: Ingvar 72

Anyway, when in the absence of arguments people try to hook the opponent through children, this is a direct indicator of the person’s rottenness.

So I want to say about the same that when you change the wind rose, you will behave rotten towards the homeland, and do not worry about the children, the soldier will not offend the child.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

This is for the time being. Hands are ready to warm, there is a hypocrisy.

Once again - do not judge by yourself.

Quote: Rusland

No, I read it somehow. Children grew up and there is no contact with dad.

Don't you confuse me with anyone? I have children of different ages, older than 19, the youngest year. Is it grown up?

Quote: Rusland

a child’s soldier will not hurt.

Wehrmacht soldiers so promised.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Rusland

This is for the time being. Hands are ready to warm, there is a hypocrisy.

Once again - do not judge by yourself.

Quote: Rusland

No, I read it somehow. Children grew up and there is no contact with dad.

Don't you confuse me with anyone? I have children of different ages, older than 19, the youngest year. Is it grown up?

Quote: Rusland

a child’s soldier will not hurt.

Wehrmacht soldiers so promised.

From where such hardening and knowledge the grandfather of the headman transferred the diary to the granddaughter?

[Ingvar 72]

Cognition from Soviet history textbooks, plus an innate nose for storytellers-changeling. Who promise a lot of good things, but do the opposite. Similar actions were taken by the occupation authorities, which promised the local population mountains of gold, and themselves implemented the Ost plan.
You and your owners act in exactly the same way - screaming at every corner about an improvement in life, and there is a degradation of medicine and education, industry is stagnating steadily, fuel prices are steadily rising, although they are falling all over the world. you’ve gotten off the oil and gas needle for two years already, but oil prices have fallen, and it became clear who ponty was pounding. All is well, beautiful marquise ...
The government behaves absolutely not logically and irrationally.
BUT (!) If you suddenly imagine for a moment that the true goals of your government are not to boost the country's economy, but its collapse, then all of them and your actions will at once find both logic and meaning. Your government is very competent and consistent in destroying the country, slowly but surely leading it to collapse. Leading state corporations are trying to privatize, explaining this by their inefficiency and loss-making, but at the same time they are paying salaries and bonuses that have no analogues in the world to top managers. National projects are breaking records for exceeding the estimated cost, but you want hot lei ( ) in the eyes - all of God's dew. You and your ilk are pouring here that in the context of globalization it makes no sense to invest in the development of your own production (who will buy all this, they say?), Tell tales of some breakthroughs, although your eyes see completely different around, namely, an increase in imports in all industries. Is China your everything?
It is your government that is once again stupidly scamming the NWF, lowering it into the furnace of another crisis, what we supposedly saved for future generations. A convenient system of weaning money from the people, is not it? First, explain the lack of progress in the economy by the need to accumulate fat, then write off accumulations in a crisis (artificially created), and you can start over.
Beauties, the system works! The only thing that pleases is that recently your government has gone too far and the people have begun to see clearly. And accordingly, you will soon be rewarded. Only you personally should remember a lesson from history - during the retreat of small traitors and policemen they did not take with them, and they usually ended up on the gallows. I think no one will take you to London with you.

[Stas157]

Quote: Rusland

a lot of anger and apparently you want to live, but not just live, but exist. Under the pebble, under the blade of grass. The kids are yours, haven't you sent your dad away yet?

A lot of anger from "commentators" like you. He didn't even hesitate to attract children!

Russia, admit judging by the expressive nickname you sympathize with the Vlasovites ??

[Russia]

Quote: Stas157

Quote: Rusland

a lot of anger and apparently you want to live, but not just live, but exist. Under the pebble, under the blade of grass. The kids are yours, haven't you sent your dad away yet?

A lot of anger from "commentators" like you. He didn't even hesitate to attract children!

Russia, admit judging by the expressive nickname you sympathize with the Vlasovites ??

Stas, license plate. Apparently you were born in vitro. Before your test tube with its dubious contents, all these things happened. Smoked visible and distracted.

[Okolotochny]

Bah, what people, Manya ..., monarchists in the arena, a Samara figure. Listen, a champion of the "Sword and Aral" society (maybe the first letter?), A person professing the ideas of monarchism, in each article supports the sectarian Trotskyites with a fevered imagination? Or do you, like theirs, have an "evil Putin" sitting in the brain and hitting the brains with a galley oar?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Okolotochny

"Sword and Aral" (maybe the first letter about?)

You are our lover of all sorts of "secret" societies. And according to the theory of Grigory Klimov, relations in these societies were built on the replacement of another letter.

[Svarog51]

Igor If Alex is an amateur, then I am a professional. Yeah. After all, I am the Blood Service, not he who inspired it. All claims on "secret" societies address me if you are in the know. In the "case" I was held as the main "defendant". Since I'm on the site, it means two options - the term is over or amnesty. In my case, the first coincided with the second.
I urge you not to quarrel. There will be no good. Cases must be resolved kindly. Do not take it as a threat - just honest conversation and peaceful.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Svarog51

Cases must be resolved kindly.

I agree, but when they turn to individuals in complete isolation from the topic of the article, they’re also rude. it’s difficult, good to decide.

[Svarog51]

Yes, here you are right. Something must be decided. It is necessary to respect each other, without this, nothing good will come of it. If I can help, I’m ready. But for dialogue, you also have to sacrifice something. Mutual understanding is at stake. It is worth a lot. Personally, I would like without aggression on the site. But this is my opinion, people are all different, what will happen in the end - I honestly don’t know. The situation is very complicated.
Stopping the war is much harder than starting. Here is the whole catch.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Svarog51

But for dialogue, you also have to sacrifice something. Mutual Understanding

I always try to operate with logic and facts, and I'm not ready to sacrifice any of this. I do not put cons, I do not complain to the administration, I try not to be rude.
I can offer only adequate respect, but only with reciprocity. Substituting the second cheek is not mine.

[Svarog51]

Igor, I behave the same way. You in my komenty something illegal saw?

Turning my second cheek is not mine

I agree, I would have escaped the first. What should be done against the war? After all, there are many of us here, and, in principle, we can decide how much longer. Of course, I understand that there will be no unanimity, but even fights, too?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Svarog51

Of course, I understand that there will be no unanimity, but even fights, too?

It is difficult Sergey, almost utopia. Too different views on the political structure of the country, and on the results of the government of the current government.

[Svarog51]

Igor, but can politics be discarded? First, find military allies in military technology, and then do not interfere with each other in politics. How I do not love her! Even war, in comparison with politics, seems cleaner, although this is not so. Can you find common ground? I am not a pacifist, it will be necessary - I will shoot without a doubt. According to the Oath I will give to the last drop. But how you want to live.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Svarog51

Igor, but can politics be discarded?

And how to drop it, because the fate of our country, and our people, depends on politics at the moment.

Quote: Svarog51

I am not a pacifist, it will be necessary - I will shoot without a doubt.

In the external enemy, please, I will stand next to you. But if you are going to shoot at your people, protesting against "soft" genocide and destruction, against beggarly salaries, against the outrageous theft of officials - you will have to shoot at me as well.
I really want to live, but for me the fate of my children and my people is more precious than life. Already do not count for pathos. The current government still has a chance to resolve everything.

[Svarog51]

I’m an EMERCOM - to shoot at my people - well, I just can’t do it; I will help to survive. For me, the enemies are external, although my colleagues are struggling with the internal. In between, internal ones are sometimes more dangerous than external ones. I hope you do not need examples?
Russia is first of all my family and homeland - then everything else. Because I don’t like politics and I don’t poke around.

[alekseykabanets]

It is not necessary to forbid anyone, let them show them with a finger, like rare animals.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

like rare animals.

But only in a cage!

[Okolotochny]

In the cage, in the cells, in the camps of the militants, Stalin kept you, because he understood that there was no benefit from you, just an op, snot and tears.

[Okolotochny]

But you did not answer, how, with your "purest monarchist convictions", are you sucking in with the sect of militant communists-shape-shifters? Want to answer? You have no convictions. Your "beliefs" change from the fullness of your stomach, a purely animal consumer reflex. So, in the cage - this is for you.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Okolotochny

Are you in a hickey with a sect of militant Changeling Communists?

You have strange sexual lies about patriots of Russia. Well, this is typical of members of "secret" organizations. Yes, I have some disagreements with the Communists about the past, but the fact that your government is destroying Russia and you need to do something about it, we have no disagreements.
And you don’t have to answer for me, you cannot answer for yourself. Regarding the animal-consumer reflex - even though I don’t have it, it is your government that needs a competent consumer, not a creator.
About the cell - time will judge.

[Svarog]

Quote: Okolotochny

But you did not answer, how, with your "purest monarchist convictions", are you sucking in with the sect of militant communists-shape-shifters?

Scraggy, how funny you are .. beliefs can be any, but the truth has become to unite people .. to combine different beliefs .. True, that’s the main thing. And the commentators who are telling the truth here are respected ..
You, the supporters of the ugliness, of a weak Russia with a poor people .. you can’t bring any arguments in favor of this power, apparently for this reason, you have no choice but to be rude ..
Reading your mentally distant comments is extremely unpleasant and I would not do this if you did not constantly cling to respected people ..

[Svarog51]

Vladimir Everyone has their own truth. I stubbornly want my family to live without war and other disasters. Fat in the financial component is excessive, while the person is degrading. Lack of pushing him to move his brain, that is - to development. Refute.

[Svarog]

Quote: Svarog51

Refute.

Sergey, so what is there to refute ..

Quote: Svarog51

Lack of pushing him to move his brain, that is - to development. Refute.

What have we achieved in 30 years? I don’t see development, I see, the facade was renovated, at our expense .. but I don’t see development .. The foundation for the development of any state is science, education .. What famous Russian scientists do you know? We have no fat and no fat, the skin will soon be torn off the last ..
Refute ..

[Svarog51]

Well, the counter-question is how did you live the last quarter century? Worked for the good of the state, or contrary to government decisions?
Regarding me - I served in the Ministry of Emergencies, I did not violate the oath, etc.

[Svarog]

Good,

Well, that is, do you agree that we do not have science and naturally education? And if so, what future do you see? Welcome to Africa ..

Quote: Svarog51

counter question - How did you live the last quarter century?

Like all-working .. I had to wander around the country, constantly changing my place of residence and carrying my family behind .. And I worked in white, earned good money and gave a ton of money to the state in the form of taxes .. For this, the state thanked me with an increase in the retirement age ..

Regarding me - I served in the Ministry of Emergencies, I did not violate the oath, etc.

And where is the oath? We express a civic position, I have a lot of friends in the Ministry of Emergencies and serious organizations .. and for a glass of tea, the position of these people does not differ from mine ..

I stubbornly want my family to live without war and other disasters

So everyone wants to live without cataclysms .. only many do not see that they are already living in a cataclysm .. If you are really who you say you are, then by the end of this year, you will begin to feel the "care" of the state .. That is if about personal ..
But you think about the future, you probably have children, grandchildren .. Do you want them to live in such a country that the guarantor offers us .. Where is the unaccountable president who rules forever, where nepotism and corruption are full of color, where in essence, a feudal state develops in which there is no place to satisfy the ambitions of youth .. since the children of officials and oligarchs are already firmly sitting in the right places and their grandchildren are growing up .. In a country that has a gas station?
Think about it .. and I say goodbye to this .. Many people here in VO express very correct thoughts and give true assessments of everything that happens .. listen ..

[Svarog51]

Dear friend, you are offended by the state during the reform period. And you have not chosen the "shore", but hang out in the fairway without a pilot. It's time to grow up and decide on the credo. Life is short, the one who is stupid with decisions is an outsider. If you focused on the task of improving the life of your family, you would succeed. This is given how much time you spend on the site instead of working for the good of your family. These things are interconnected. It's forgivable for me - I'm a pensioner. My family - my wife and cat Rysya live quite well. I also help my mother and daughter. And you? Establish a family - there and in politics you can get lucky.

[Svarog]

Quote: Svarog51

Dear friend, you are offended by the state during the reform period. And you did not choose "shore", but hang out in the fairway without a pilot

You made a very strange conclusion .. that it is not correct, there’s no need to even explain ..
I’m not hanging out anywhere .. I’m doing fine .. including in the family)) and I myself have been a pilot for a long time ..

Life is short, the one who stupid with decisions - is in the outsiders

Thoughtfully.. but what solutions are you talking about?

[Svarog51]

It's about life in the realities of Russia further, how will we live? To drown, that made, or to build, what seems to us? And who says, where are we going?
I would save what I have and attach to it what I can. I do not want to destroy.

[Svarog]

Quote: Svarog51

To drown, that made, or to build, what seems to us?

And what have we gained ... if you mean personal private property, then nobody is going to take it away ... and this property isn’t such .. Take an apartment and don’t pay, let’s say a year .. well, you have a difficult situation and what ..you just remain without your property, or you didn’t give your mortgage to the bank .. and also without an apartment .. But in our time it’s more than easy to stay out of work .. So the whole property is ephemeral .. As it is .. but in any the moment may not become ..
And not one socialist offers to seize it .. But our strategic enterprises, the oil and gas industry, and energy are simply obliged to belong to the state ..

And who says, where are we going?

A socialist will come, where we need to go .. but with the liberals the capitalists for 30 years they haven’t come anywhere and for another hundred we won’t come anywhere .. more precisely there will be no one to go ..

I would save what I have and attach to it what I can. I do not want to destroy.

So any sane person would like evolution, not revolution .. Only here is the guarantor against .. he always wants to rule and not be responsible for the consequences .. That's the problem .. it turns out that evolution does not have to wait .. moreover , roll back to the past bypassing all the good that was during the USSR ..
Where it leads? I think that the worst option .. Either we will slowly and surely degrade and die out, or a coup will occur with very incomprehensible consequences .. I don’t like any of the options, but one of them will definitely happen .. With your tacit consent .. Who is to blame? Who created such a political, economic system? Why doesn’t he want to give up his own ambitions and hold fair elections? A lot of questions, but the answer is obvious ..

[Svarog51]

Vladimir, is your family in complete order so that you have time to engage in politics? Is there a place to live? What is there to eat? I heard you but you do not have me. I have the opportunity to devote time to politics, because there is order in the family, how about this? You cannot solve strategic problems without solving tactical ones. You are all eager to decide for a power that does not do so. Are you sure you know the same? If you get the full information, can you handle it? But you do not possess a share of that information. To be an oppositionist for what? For the sake of being. or for the sake of the result ?. Can revise and help the authorities, and not destroy, what do we have? It may be worse than it is.

[Svarog]

Quote: Svarog51

Vladimir, is your family in complete order so that you have time to engage in politics? Is there a place to live? What is there to eat?

That is, while there is food and a roof over your head, does it mean that everything is fine and you need to close your eyes to everything and not express your civic position? Don't you think that it is precisely because of this approach that "my house is on the edge" we have everything exactly as it is ..

I heard you but you do not have me.

I hear you too .. but I don’t share this approach .. precisely because of the tacit approval .. or it’s just "not interesting" we have everything like that ..

You are all eager to decide for a power that does not do so. Are you sure you know the same? If you get the full information, can you handle it? But you don’t have a share of that information

It is enough for me to see the result .. The result is the most important information, the rest is from the evil one .. you can find a lot of reasons why you didn’t manage .. but if you didn’t manage it, leave, give the opportunity to another, create the conditions for fair elections .. this is honest and patriotic. And all kinds of conspiracy theories are just to justify failures and failures .. Always someone interferes ..

To be an oppositionist for what? For the sake of being. or for the sake of the result ?.

This is a civic position. Honest and clear. I am not a member of any parties, but I believe that Russia must be an empire, that the people of Russia should live in a socialist state, as the most progressive and fair structure of society ..
And of course, I am counting on the result, I hope that there will be more supporters of socialism and someday they will come to power ..

[Svarog51]

There is not enough time to be involved in politics and work for the family. Either the family is hungry, or you are of little use in politics. If you become a professional politician and receive food for it, you also have two options - depending on which side. Either with the people's money and for your state, or for "outsiders" and against the existing government. Which option suits you? In politics, too, "warm" places have long been divided, if they are allowed to go there, it will be for simple "workers". Going into opposition - you can also "sit down" for illegal actions. The state will also defend itself and it has everything it needs for this.
But the choice, of course, is yours - which way to go. Moreover, there will always be associates and opponents.

[cost]

Svarog: everything is fine with me .. and I myself have long been a pilot ..

The Poles, following Susanin, probably also thought that he was a pilot, and they are doing well

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Svarog

I'm fine .. in the family including))

from nature then what nagging you ??? !!!

[Okolotochny]

Kolya, of course by nature, from the floor

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Okolotochny

Kolya, of course by nature, from the floor

damn ... well, a couple of years already one nagging, everything is bad, ffssё disappeared, the gypsum was removed, the country fell apart, but in the end .... in the end, it turns out, everything is fine with him !!! It turns out, not on the latest coupons for the Internet, they hang around here !!!

[Okolotochny]

I'm at least funny, not stubborn. Compare my comments, all and yours. In yours, 100% in Russia, everything is bad. Stasikisvarogi, you have a clinic, heal, you have only this topic in your brain, there are no others.

[Okolotochny]

I read from the beast. Health does not press rude to strangers? Or also get the last crust without salt, since Putin took everything away?

[Okolotochny]

Boar, escaped from the forest?

[Gene84]

The betrayal of General Vlasov and his accomplices has become a dark spot in the history of our Great War.

Vlasov, the enemy of the people received a well-deserved punishment for treason in the form of a hangman. I consider it a dark spot for those who are trying to rewrite the history of the Great Patriotic War, calling it the second civil war and talking about the Russian cross. These are worse than the Vlasovites.

[Vadim777]

This is a one-sided perception of reality.

[iouris]

Watch the video: parade in Pskov 22.05.43.

[Bashkirkhan]

The Volga-Tatar SS Legion "Idel-Ural", in contrast to the ROA, was not capable of combat. In 1943-1944, about 30 thousand soldiers of the legion alone went over to the side of the partisans and to the allies. For example, the 825th battalion of more than 500 people, created by the Germans from prisoners of the Idel-Ural legion, on February 23, 1943, went over to the side of one of the detachments of the 1st Vitebsk partisan brigade, after shooting the Germans who served in the legion.

[prior]

Vlasovites are not only about yesterday, Vlasovites in power are ours today.

[Victorio]

Quote: prior

Vlasovites are not only about yesterday, Vlasovites in power are ours today.

===
) who about what, and naked about the bath. power, power, power, power .......... go already in a crowd to power, you are full here (in your opinion, you are full everywhere). there will be your correct thought, your governors and your president. a milk river will flow between the jelly banks.

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Victorio

there will be your correct thought, your governors and your president. a milk river will flow between the jelly banks.

Starved without power! If they come to power, they will grab the loot with all the holes ... These starving people will not burst, the stomachs are dimensionless ... But Russia will disappear without a trace ....

[Ravil_Asnafovich]

Why are you doing this ??? More specifically, please, what did Russia do to you personally?

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich

Why are you doing this ??? More specifically, please, what did Russia do to you personally?

And I, not about Russia! You probably did not understand what it was about. I wrote about those hungry for power ... They are not any Russia. We are the people, people living here, working Russia.

[Victorio]

Quote: 30 vis

Quote: Victorio

there will be your correct thought, your governors and your president. a milk river will flow between the jelly banks.

Starved without power! If they come to power they will grab the loot with all the holes ... These starving ones will not burst, the stomachs are dimensionless ... But Russia will disappear without a trace ...

===
who knows?! maybe it (the new government) will be better, and now those who are striving and the authorities will plow from morning to evening for the good of the people and the country. only now all this hostility / aggression / mischief / gloating and other things around "coming to power" are alarming / annoying

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Victorio

who knows?! maybe it (the new government) will be better, and now torn and the authorities will plow from morning to evening for the benefit of the people and the country.

When in our country a change of order, redistribution of property, took place painlessly for ordinary people ....? And so all the time we live in difficult times Everyone promises that tomorrow will come a new good life .. .Tomorrow, but not today, today they offer to be patient ... And tomorrow comes the ass! Robbery, poverty .. and a new cycle begins ... People rebuild on the ashes, acquire an economy and again .. Change of power ... New ones came to rob!. I even have a theory of every twenty to thirty years. Over the years, the country is slightly overgrown with "fat", a new generation is growing up, they completely beat their heads off with slogans. .. ... And away we go .. Change of power, cataclysms, robbery of the people ... Therefore, I do not expect anything good from the new ones.

[Looking for]

They sorted it out with those. But with the current ones, the gut is thin.

[Vadim777]

I’m afraid to disappoint you, the EDRO is in power, and there are all descendants of the CPSU and the Komsomol

[Old partisan]

They hung the jackal and did it right. Revive and hang again. Repeatedly.
And the army put him in charge, too. And the first nat. the team paid for their guilt with blood.

[Same lech]

Vlasov is a coward and a traitor ... and the rank of General of the Red Army only burdens his guilt ... the gallows are a worthy reward to him ... another general of the Red Army Dmitry Karbyshev, who was captured as a result of contusion and unconsciousness, did not cooperate with the Germans and I respect him as hero ... here is the contrast between the traitor and the hero.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Not only Karbyshev. Lukin ... In his memoirs, by the way, the generals and colonels who were captured are listed. Only a few units took the path of treason.

[DMB 75]

I consider Lieutenant General Karbyshev an example of heroism and loyalty. Lieutenant General Vlasov is a model of cowardice and betrayal. Most of the Soviet generals who were captured behaved courageously, refused any cooperation with the Nazis. Yes, even Denikin was invited to cooperate with the Nazis, but he refused, saying: "General Denikin served and serves only Russia. He did not serve foreign states and will not serve. ".

[Vadim777]

Stalin's favorite however ....

[tihonmarine]

The new generation of historians, relying on facts only known to them, united the traitors of the ROA with collaborators of all stripes, including units formed by Germans from Russian emigrants, and made their nasty conclusion about a certain Second Civil War.

These historians are the same traitors as the Vlasovites, policemen, "Khivi" and various "Sonder teams". A traitor, he is a traitor everywhere, and during a war he is subject only to destruction, which is what they did to them. There are no excuses for betrayal, both during the Second World War and now.

[Incvizitor]

Then the Vlasovites, now all sorts of liberals, are in bulk, there are always such swamps, and all, only, it happens that they get to power, as in 404 and misfortunes begin.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Incvizitor

Then Vlasovites, now all sorts of liberalists, are in bulk, there are always such swamps

But what about the Sechenyons, Rotenbergs, Chubais, Serdyukovs, whom the current "patriot" Putin considers to be effective managers and heroes of Russia? And he himself is a liberal, he personally admitted.
In 404, troubles began because Yanukovych gave the country to plunder the oligarchs. The pendos simply successfully played this card. Putin is now taking leaps and bounds along the road of Yanukovych.

[Incvizitor]

I’m more worried about Nashi’s horses who dream of ruining the country and destroying the people than these remnants of the 90s.
The trouble began from the moment when the thieves and podp.ki to power seized power, everything grows from there.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Incvizitor

The trouble began from the moment when the thieves and podp.ki to power seized power, everything grows from there.

Yes, but the authorities themselves are doing everything possible to ensure that we have a riot. The only difference is that, unlike 404, the Communists and those close to them in theory will come to power. Many look and listen to Navalny, but only a few prophesy about his kingdom. The bulk of the Grudinin, Platoshkin.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Yes, but the government itself is doing everything possible to ensure that we have a riot

Do not make excuses, you are not yet in miles ... ugh, police. But - walk the faithful path, faithful

Quote: Ingvar 72

Communists and those close to them in theory will come to power in our country

The one who pays the most will come. It happens so everywhere, where the "veche" begins to decide something

Quote: Ingvar 72

The bulk of the Grudinin, Platoshkin

Mdja ...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Golovan Jack

But - walk the faithful path, faithful

What are you talking about again?

Quote: Golovan Jack

It happens so everywhere, where the "veche" begins to decide something

It happens, but it happens differently.

Quote: Golovan Jack

Mdja ..

Feel free to express your thoughts, if they are of course.

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Ingvar 72

It happens, but it happens differently

It doesn't happen, buddy. All current "revolutions" are made exclusively for sponsorship money, and who pays - he calls the tune. So the communists here, even if something happens ... well, they certainly won't come.

By the way, on the topic of revolutions and their likelihood in the Russian Federation, it is very interesting how successfully they will now cope with the "coronovirus". The topics are very similar, if you think about it a little

Quote: Ingvar 72

Feel free to express your thoughts, if they are of course

Yes there is, naturally ... but - not in a horse.

Quote: Ingvar 72

The bulk of the Grudinin, Platoshkin

... to tears...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Golovan Jack

Well, they definitely won’t come.

Nadia dies last. Although in something (Oh amazing!) You are really right.

Quote: Golovan Jack

not a horse.

Something constantly interferes with a bad dancer. Can advise a good surgeon?

[Golovan Jack]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Although in something (Oh amazing!) You are really right

I am almost always right. You just don’t catch up

And therefore, again:

Quote: Golovan Jack

not horse

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Golovan Jack

I am almost always right. You just don’t catch up

Bah, the patient has taken the path of recovery! ALMOST words have already appeared!
But seriously, this is the easiest way in rhetoric to blame your opponent for not being able to understand. So again - can you contact Sylvester? He is competent in these matters.

[Incvizitor]

Yes, but the authorities themselves are doing everything possible to ensure that we have a riot.

Although it’s not enough, they’ll drive swamp mud, keep it in a stall, it’s a pity of course these races under

Article 278. Violent seizure of power or violent retention of power
Actions aimed at forcibly seizing power or forcibly retaining power in violation of the Constitution of the Russian Federation, as well as aimed at forcibly changing the constitutional system of the Russian Federation, -
shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of from twelve to twenty years with a restriction of liberty for a term of up to two years ..

Do not fall.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Ingvar 72

But what about the Sechenyons, Rotenbergs, Chubais, Serdyukovs, whom the current "patriot" Putin considers to be effective managers and heroes of Russia?

The people will judge them all and will reward everyone according to their deserts.

[Vladimir_2U]

Vlasov’s flagged St. Andrew’s flag, and the current tricolor was not always perceived by me very much, although in recent years I have become better at it.

[Svarog]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and the current tricolor was always not very perceived by me, although in recent years I have become better towards it.

Steeper than the flag than red with a sickle and a hammer will never be .. I very much hope that we will return to it and it will proudly develop in the capital of our country.

[Ravil_Asnafovich]

And the emblem of the USSR.

[Russia]

Quote: Svarog

Quote: Vladimir_2U

and the current tricolor was always not very perceived by me, although in recent years I have become better towards it.

Steeper than the flag than red with a sickle and a hammer will never be .. I very much hope that we will return to it and it will proudly develop in the capital of our country.

Itself under this flag grew and absorbed all the best like you. Well, you hang this respected flag color on your balcony, attach it to the car, start with yourself or wait for a kick to stand under your beloved and many banners. What do you walk and whine here. Go out and say: Yes, I love this color and the sickle and hammer, and I will go out too and say: it is also dear to me.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

Well you hang this respected flag color, on your balcony, attach it to the car

People passed with flags, and here, near Novokuybyshevsk.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Rusland

Well you hang this respected flag color, on your balcony, attach it to the car

People passed with flags, and here, near Novokuybyshevsk.

This is our Chapaevsk and Novokuybyshevsk, responsible for your Togliatti, work in the field, and do not stick around the area where it is tastier.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

This is our Chapaevsk and Novokuybyshevsk

What does it mean ??! You just said here that if you want a red flag, hang it on your car. Trying to change shoes in a jump?
So people hung a red flag, the reaction of your power to the video. Moreover, the government violates its own laws.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Rusland

This is our Chapaevsk and Novokuybyshevsk

What does it mean ??! You just said here that if you want a red flag, hang it on your car. Trying to change shoes in a jump?
So people hung a red flag, the reaction of your power to the video. At than power violates its own laws

Quote: Ingvar 72

So people hung a red flag, the reaction of your power to the video. Moreover, the government violates its own laws.

Once again (Ai ugly ) about you, about your balcony. Dance at home, that you stuck to us in Novokuybyshevsk, Chapaevsk, another pop Gapon or what? I’m talking about your balcony, about your porch, don’t need to crawl, read it carefully, like a protocol.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

no need to crawl

So you fidget. Was there a conversation about the car? It was. And Novokuybyshevsk with Chapaevsk is in our region. You decide where you are from, telling me not to meddle with you.
If there are coconuts, put on a shirt with Putin and Medvedev, but go to the Samara Bearing Plant, they will quickly explain to you about the attitude of the overwhelming mass of the population towards the authorities.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Rusland

no need to crawl

So you fidget. Was there a conversation about the car? It was. And Novokuybyshevsk with Chapaevsk is in our region. You decide where you are from, telling me not to meddle with you.
If there are coconuts, put on a shirt with Putin and Medvedev, but go to the Samara Bearing Plant, they will quickly explain to you about the attitude of the overwhelming mass of the population towards the authorities.

Clearly, the patient swam. Answer for yourself and your position that you are spreading it all over the region.
Sorry for your kids, if you misunderstood. Good health to you and your family.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

Answer for yourself and your position that you are spreading it all over the region.

Fidgeting again. Was there a proposal to hang a red flag on your balcony, on your car? Or are you already completely unable to answer for words? I cited as an example that people hung flags on a car, and how it ended the same can be seen. And where, in what area these people live - the tenth thing, do not take aside. Flag - a car, able to draw a parallel?

Quote: Rusland

Sorry for your kids, if you misunderstood. Good health to you and your family.

Accepted. For the future - do not touch the children, too personal. Limit yourself to a discussion of my humble person.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Fidgeting again. Was there a proposal to hang a red flag on your balcony, on your car? Or are you already completely unable to answer for words?

Yes, in the part of your balcony and your car. That's where the "fidgeting" is.

Quote: Ingvar 72

I cited as an example that people hung flags on a car, and how it ended the same can be seen

I understand that there is a Brest Fortress, respect for our peasants.
Well, here you are, moreover, what the Fingal prevents you from getting from you in Tollati, what are you scurrying about for us and give examples while sitting on the pot?
Enough to include a fool, like a fool.

[Russia]

I feel sorry for you, a householder who does not recognize pots, regarding cooking and ... another. You were asked to comprehend and take for thought at the very beginning what you described, described and cited as an example. I respect Lesha, he alone stands on the embankment with a poster, but you are verbiage, if only I and my hut are not.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

I feel sorry for you

Sorry for yourself, for a short while you still get a salary for the sale of your own people.

[Russia]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Rusland

I feel sorry for you

Sorry for yourself, for a short while you still get a salary for the sale of your own people.

In vain you are living in the same country, believe me, I would share a piece of bread like breadcrumbs with you in difficult times.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Rusland

I would share a piece of bread like breadcrumbs with you

Yes, and I will share, but I would like not to bring the country to this.

[Svarog]

Quote: Rusland

Itself under this flag grew and absorbed all the best like you.

We have obviously absorbed different things .. For you didn’t even learn to communicate respectfully .. but there is no point in discussing subtle matters and meaning ..

[Svarog51]

and there is no point in discussing subtle matters and meaning with you.

Vladimir Will I come to discuss subtle matters? Still, the namesake.

[Incvizitor]

I would prefer the imperial one, the Union is still gone, the modern RF is not worthy of that flag.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Incvizitor

I would prefer imperial

As an option, but not many people know the imperial flag, but everyone knows red.

[Maxim364364]

What is there to discuss, to write scientific treatises with the aim of discussing causes and effects, cheating on the oath, and that’s it. Everyone chooses his own path.

[rocket757]

All the sisters were given earrings!
That's it, the topic is over.

[Dmitry Potapov]

This is not our spot! The family is not without a defective personality! As for the "second civil war", civil wars are fought between citizens of one country and not on the side of the enemy of the Motherland!

[apro]

Vlasovites are not a dark spot. And in Soviet times they knew about this and treated them with understanding. As enemies.
Today, the Vlasovites won in Russia. And the authorities tried to whitewash the fact of betrayal by putting forward various versions. From the fight against the Communists to the help in the liberation of Prague.

[knn54]

For a long time both abroad and in the Russian Federation, a fighter has been made from Vlasov with both Stalin and Hitler. This makes him almost the banner of the Russian liberals. An example is an attempt to rehabilitate the general in 2001.

[Cowbra]

Genadius is right and wrong at the same time. There’s just such a thing. Cossacks. If very simplified, then consider. what is the border troops. Well, now think about how much more rotten Skin and Krasnov, perhaps. next to them Vlasov - so ... Poss came out.
The traitor-frontier is something! And this is Krasnov.

[Marine engineer]

On the border lived the Amur, Daursky, Semirechensky Cossacks, they can be called border guards. Krasnov from Donets, from the Don to the nearest border, jump and skip.

[Cowbra]

Donts was resettled by Katya. And why? And where?

[Amateur]

The betrayal of General Vlasov and his accomplices has become a dark spot in the history of our Great War.

The presence of traitors is the history of mankind. Judas Iscariot Hanged himself. Since then, traitors are always hanged.
For some reason, they bypass the attention of Zhilenkov, Georgy Nikolaevich, Lieutenant General of the ROA
Brigadier Commissioner of the Red Army., Secretary of the Party District Committee of the Rostokinsky district of Moscow. In this area there are a number of large industrial enterprises and educational institutions, its population reached 400. He was a member of the Moscow city committee of the CPSU (b). In my opinion, this party bastard is even worse than Vlasov.

[bober1982]

Quote: Amateur

Judas Iscariot Hanged himself. Since then, traitors are always hanged.

There is no and no connection with Judah.
Execution by hanging - the most shameful, has always been applied to war criminals and traitors, it has always been so.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: bober1982

There is no and no connection with Judah.
Execution by hanging - the most shameful, has always been applied to war criminals and traitors, it has always been so.

Judas was stoned and hanged - the Jewish Execution - a sekil. They usually throw stones from a cliff, they banged it like a Roman collaborator - for collaborating with the invaders and their accomplices from the Temple elite and the Greeks, so they hung him up for edification.

[bober1982]

Wow ......., well, and things

[Avior]

According to the Gospel of Matthew, hanged himself
According to the Acts of the Holy Apostles, the inside was lost.
These are Christian versions.
Interestingly, the Jews have any more?
What is your source?
Logically, the Jews did not make sense to persecute Judas, let alone stoning.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Avior

According to the Gospel of Matthew, hanged himself
According to the Acts of the Holy Apostles, the inside was lost.
These are Christian versions.
Interestingly, the Jews have any more?
What is your source?
Logically, the Jews did not make sense to persecute Judas, let alone stoning.

I read in Israel, and more than once. On paper. Read who took Jesus from the cross - the richest people in Jerusalem who were in opposition to the Temple authorities. And so - yes, I agree the Jews of THAT PERIOD did not mention this story, Josephus has one thing provably him mention of Jesus in passing, Philo of Alexandria does not recall in any way.
I read about this in the context of the fact that "the Jews did not commit suicide," Masada is an exception.

[Cowbra]

Krasnodar. - you shit!

[Krasnodar]

Cry from the heart?

[Cowbra]

Quote: Krasnodar

Cry from the heart?

Do you contradict the Bible? Sinlessly ...

Jack London said about you ... "And the mongrels had no soul at all. They could only break bones."

[Krasnodar]

Are you a hereditary aristocrat? )))
In general, it touches me when someone pumps me ideas about that period of time of the country, not knowing:
A) Her religion
B) language
In history
D) Laws
I am not going to offend the feelings of believers, so this discussion can only be conducted in a question-answer format, although this is superfluous.

[Cowbra]

Quote: Krasnodar

not knowing:
A) Her religion
B) language
In history

Krasnodaryets, if you really are Krasnodar, sing, what is the aspen called otherwise? He knows, an honest mother. Go, finish reading "in Israel" (c)

[Krasnodar]

Well, why do "masters of life" have a habit of being rude in the information space? )) Corrupt the titles of winners of boxing competitions or crush the severity of the capital earned by the brain?

[Cowbra]

And why do the "slaves" of life have a habit of not answering questions? Have you decided to vote? Are you in dialogue? Dialogue is not when one speaks and hears no one but himself. Answer the question first, tell it later

[Krasnodar]

From servants like me, “masters of life” like you snatch at a poorly washed car I'm already silent about the HOLE))
Judas tree is a folk name for aspen

[Cowbra]

True, or bloody. And also a smokehouse. And about the "holes" - you're still lucky. what's not an ass-fuck Pin up any city. about our places, for example - Mos-Kvach)
Well, now let's do this - why did I suddenly become the "master of life" all of a sudden? Just curious
And for Judah ... A middle-aged man, they did not baptize me, he was baptized, and I was many years old. Orthodoxy of the brain is not sick, but lying on faith - I do not like categorically. Not with stones, but with buoys, and not Judas, but Yuden

[Krasnodar]

About Astrakhan - did not hear As for Moscow - everyone can laugh, but 80% of babos from all over Russia still flock to the capital.
The master of life - because you are rude, like a gentleman to a serf. Ugly, listen, yeah
And where is the lie? For Jews in religion, suicide is a great sin, so Judas himself hardly managed to hang out, collaborating with the Romans, Greeks and the Temple authorities often hung up after stoning in contrast to the Roman crucifix, about buoys and Yuden - at Vlasov’s grave on your next visit

[Cowbra]

You haven't heard of Astrakhan, well, you're lucky that you are not a "horse", one of the most shameful pro-those at CSKA - you flew into Ass-fucking Volgar-Gazprom, there was not just an ass-fucking And with a hysteria from, for example, Berezutsky - the fairy tale is simple, they have washed themselves to their full height! Well, they lost.
And for the Jews ... Yes, they have a lot of different things, for example, the Jews, it seems, do not really change their faith? Markovichi, you’ll still laugh - tse Kozaki, Mark Avramych - you must admit that the original Krajina names were already colonel in Sichi) Nothing, did not break. How did the Cossacks, especially the Sychev Jews, love?

[Krasnodar]

Cossacks have many Josephs, Abraham, etc. - biblical, orthodox names. Cossacks Pts loved Jews, Jews fell in love with them in response to the Civil)).
As for the change of religion - parents sit mourning for a week, they don’t communicate with a child who has changed faith.

[Cowbra]

I sympathize I have the closest analogue in my life .... Well, there is such a person. true, not a stranger. but thank goodness not my family. He himself was Ukrainian, Orthodox. He married a Muslim woman - a stunningly beautiful and intelligent girl, though, there is only envy in a white way. And I don't know why - just a month has passed - and I don't know. The fact that he converted to Muslims is okay. his war and not my concern. So he didn’t even rip into natural gopniks! "I'm the collector. The collector! Do you see the trunk? Well, get out of here. I'm stronger than you!"
Really - it was. Woodpecker.
Or another phrase of the same person ... Well, yes, he is my (own) brother. So this means that he must help me - he must always! - And you? - So he's a Gentile!
Introduced my eyes. when did i hear that ?!

[Krasnodar]

It happens
It is more fun in Krasnodar - one public figure surrendered a colleague to the KGB under the Union for baptizing a child, but now he is the most Orthodox of all cultural figures of the Region, the collector and keeper of the original Cossack traditions, Hero of Labor of the Kuban

[Cowbra]

Have you ever been bored there

[Krasnodar]

Now stagnation.

[Cowbra]

No football! By the way for sports - for Krasnodar. Okay, still for Galitsky. But DOSAAF who got you crazy?

[Krasnodar]

Even Tkachev pulled)).
And state funds invested.

[Cowbra]

Listen, I'm not quite wooden ... You roughly understood how much THIS IS THIS:

Bastards, and in jackets. and with the walters !!!

[Krasnodar]

Well I say - Tkachev pulled up - what is not clear? I don’t know names - the rest is info on the Internet

[Cowbra]

Quote: Krasnodar

I say

Yes, you understand. what kind of photo to say ... Hey. Ale, I’m kind of a Muscovite - we have the capital of the state here - you realized that I was looking at a photo from Krasnodar ... Ekerne mene. envy

[Krasnodar]

Tkachev, no matter how he was scolded, is a very smart guy. I'm sorry that he resigned as governor. As for Moscow - I was not interested, but you should have such private ones before the figurine - the richest city in the country!

[Cowbra]

We have a fox hole training ground ... Very good, but the truth - here is yours - worse!

[Krasnodar]

We have a lot of cool stuff - welcome to the Krasnodar Territory
In theory - there is everything. Up to its own oil.

[Insurgent]

Quote: Krasnodar

Judas was stoned and hanged - the Jewish Execution - a sekil.

Do you contradict the Bible? Sinlessly ...
And no matter what religion you are, or even an atheist.

[Unknown]

The betrayal of General Vlasov and his accomplices has become a dark spot in the history of our Great War. Therefore, the attempts of unscrupulous historians to imagine black as white in the eyes of people who know the real history of the war and its heavy price are countless and hopeless ............. there wasn’t a stain, that’s all. He was 64 years old, and already at the age of 11-12 he knew who the Vlasovites were. and Dad told, yes, from the movie ,, liberation ,, the information was. there were many of them at the construction sites of the national economy, in cities, and at the end of their term, they remained to live there. already in the year 80 - and he worked with them at work. our people simply didn’t argue much. He served the Germans, it means the Vlasovite, and the point. Yes, they were silent in a rag, who they were, Cossacks, or policemen, no matter the Vlasovite, and that’s it.

[Fishery]

250,000 Ukrainians 70,000 Belarusians 70,000 Cossacks 150,000 Latvians 90,000 Estonians 50,000 Lithuanians 70,000 Central Asians 12,000 Volga Tatars 10,000 Crimean Tatars 7,000 Kalmyks 40,000 Azerbaijanis 25,000 Georgians 20,000 Armenians 30,000 North Caucasian peoples

[Ros 56]

It’s not a dark, but a definite formation of traitors and enemies of the people. They behaved worse than the Nazis, my mother was in occupation, so the Germans did not take the latter, and these jackals raked everything clean.

[Vadim777]

Those of the Vlasovites who participated in the liberation of Prague from the Wehrmacht troops bleached their name in history, saving the pearl of the Slovenian world from death. And yes, they recaptured Prague under the banner of the Roa, without the participation of the Red Army.

[Vadim777]

Judging by the majority of comments, the civil war in Russia continues ....

[Nikolai Grek]

Quote: Vadim777

Judging by the majority of comments, the civil war in Russia continues ....

it is very doubtful to consider the comments here-the mood of the whole Russian people !!!

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: prior

Vlasovites are not only about yesterday, Vlasovites in power are ours today.

Sorry, but unfortunately this is a bitter truth. And they are also indignant that in the West they are trying to equate Communism with fascism. They themselves had a hand in this.

[Ovrag]

Stalin decided on occasion to get rid of the most popular commander in the country. Hero of the defense of Moscow. Did not work out. He fled to the enemies. In general, such a usual story. Especially for Stalin. Which always thwarted any attempts to approach him in popularity.
It’s not clear just what shame has to do with it? If these units fought on the side of the Nazis - it would be a shame. And so there they almost powdered their head for almost 4 years, devoured their supplies, and even saved a certain number of people from death in the camps. Without firing a single shot towards the Red Army. The fascists also perfectly understood that they would turn their weapons against them as soon as possible ... In general, in fact the topic is not worth a damn.
Why many people bomb so much is not clear.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ovrag

Stalin decided on occasion to get rid of the most popular commander in the country. Hero of the defense of Moscow. Did not work out. He fled to the enemies. In general, such a usual story. Especially for Stalin. Which always thwarted any attempts to approach him in popularity.

Yes, yes, yes ... and Stalin tried to get rid of Zhukov in 1941 at least twice (Leningrad and Moscow after the start of the Typhoon). And from Rokossovsky. And from ... who else did he send to dangerous areas? After all, it is clear to everyone that the more dangerous the situation, the worse the commander sent to resolve it should be.
And not only Stalin. Churchill also tried to get rid of Montgomery and ABC. Roosevelt - from Halsey, Spruens, Fletcher and Patton.

[Ovrag]

Yea Yea. But I will note that Stalin did not actually send anyone except Vlasov "to death." Overall though. I do not exclude that the whole situation with the mess in the 2nd Army is, in general, the result of undercover squabbles at headquarters. Nevertheless, at some point, Stalin really decided to get Vlasov out. But he refused the shameful flight.

[Unknown]

Stalin decided on occasion to get rid of the most popular commander in the country. The hero of the defense of Moscow ........... are you general, then you are friends with your head? STALIN - the supreme commander in chief, under his control, all fronts. the whole country, and among allies, and enemies sounds-STALIN. But who is this for the country, at that time 41-42 years of Vlasov? one of a thousand mediocre generals, of which in the newspapers of those times, a dime a dozen. yes, who knew him then. then the whole press was under the main political administration of the Red Army. glorified, or even deleted from life, according to their orders, and naturally consulted with the supreme, not without it. so, the Supreme said to print, it means they will print, and will be a hero. and you’ve probably read milechina that you’re talking about .......

[Ovrag]

STALIN - Supreme Commander

Yeah. The commander in chief. Stalin, although marked by some successes in the civil war, as commander of the troops ... But his real potential ... Well, approximately at the level of Hitler. Which, in general, was shown by all military companies until the age of 42-43, when, as a result, his heart squeaked, he in fact completely gave the leadership to Zhukov and Co.
And in general, if he led the whole war. That she pissed away at the very beginning of the war. When he strongly did not want to believe that Hitler was the first to succeed.
To command troops, this is not a purge in the apparatus and among the population to arrange. They need specific knowledge, skills, understanding of the situation, etc., etc. Therefore, in our time, nevertheless, they are directly commanders of the army, they are only people. And all sorts of supreme - purely nominal. Maximum poke in which direction to fight.

But who is this for the country, at that time 41-42 years of Vlasov?

The question of a man who apparently did not teach history. I didn’t even get to Wikipedia. Does it make sense to answer it?

yes, who knew him then.

Well, everything is clear. You would have it. At first, the topic would be studied at least a little. And then they wrote something.

[Unknown]

The question of a man who apparently did not teach history. I didn’t even get to Wikipedia. Does it make sense to answer it? ............. doesn’t, I’m telling you right away. one who teaches history on Wikipedia, and even does not see what is written there, he does not accept any historical facts. comparison with a draft horse, in which the blinkers are in front of one’s eyes, where they will be sent there and goes, but you cannot look right or left, these blinkers interfere. take them off your eyes, read the Marshals, Vasilevsky, Zhukov, Golovanov, Rokossovsky - an intelligent military historian Isaev L. century, and other historians, in extreme cases, go to the library, or on the Internet read the book of an. Vasiliev, at one o’clock, Your Excellency, just do not need more than that ........ what you write.

[Astra wild]

Ovgar, in fact, information flashes that Hitler was well versed in planning. It was already theirs generals who found an explanation: the stupid Hitler was to blame for the defeats. In that case, was Stalin not stupid?
"As a commander of the troops," as far as I remember from textbooks and saw on the website, Stalin was not a commander of troops in the civil war. You are too lazy to re-read history

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ovrag

Stalin, although marked by some successes in the civil war, as commander of the troops ... But his real potential ... Well, approximately at the level of Hitler.

Hehehehe ... so we know about Hitler’s potential only by the memoirs of beaten German generals who managed to blame all their failures on the Führer. And what a great tactic: it’s not we screwed up, we only obeyed the orders of a dumb corporal.
And when they dug the same "stop order", it suddenly turned out that von Rundstedt had stopped the troops. And Hitler endorsed the already executed order only the next day - and after von Rundstedt proved to him the validity of the stop.

[Astra wild]

Ovrag, have you eaten mushrooms? Can Vlasov put up a monument: the savior of the unfortunate and the powder of the brains of the Germans? In your opinion, Himmler and Hitler were naive kids and did not see that he was powdering their brains

[Marine engineer]

Do not pay attention, this is an ordinary provocation.

[svp67]

Vlasov, Vlasov, but do not forget about the 29th Loko SS division of the SS RON Kaminsky ...

[LeonidL]

As a result, it became part of the ROA - in the first division of Bunyachenko.

[svp67]

Quote: LeonidL

As a result, it became part of the ROA - in the first division of Bunyachenko.

Not all ... Many went to Dirlewanger, becoming the basis.

[LeonidL]

The basis of the SS Dirlewanger brigade was made up of criminals released from concentration camps, primarily the deserters, and it was created before the Kaminsky SS brigade. However, both were particularly noted in Poland during the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising, so much so that the relative of Eva Braun - SS General, wrote to Hitler and Himler about the need for the trial of both brigadeführer. Kaminsky even seems to have been shot about this. Although this surname also appears on the lists of the Vlasov assembly in Prague.

[svp67]

Quote: LeonidL

The basis of the SS Dirlewanger brigade

Yes, you are right, but not in everything, after the dissolution of the 29th (Russian) SS division (RONA) in 1944, the 72nd Grenadier Regiment of the SS Army (Russian No. 1) and the 73rd Grenadier Regiment of the SS Army (Russian No. 2) were transferred Dirlewanger assault brigade, thus making up practically its basis

[Astra wild]

Colleagues, there is a documentary cycle on NTV: "Based on real facts" and today I watched about the punishers who burned Khatyn. This is the handiwork of Ukrainian nationalists from the 118th auxiliary police battalion. The chief of staff of this battalion was Vasyura, a senior lieutenant of the Red Army, six days after the start of the war, he went into the service of the invaders. The beast was still the same and the invaders awarded him 2 medals, and in 1985 he wanted to be awarded the Order of the Patriotic War! His hands are not only covered in blood up to the elbows, but he himself is up to the top of his head. And this monster for many years told stories of how he fought against the Nazis.
And there were many like him. SORRY to tears it is a pity that many Vasyurs escaped retaliation

[svp67]

Quote: Astra wild

that many Vassury escaped retaliation

Look, you will be interested

[Astra wild]

Thanks, really interesting

[itarnmag]

My father personally captured 21 Vlasovites and was, among other things, presented to the Order of the Patriotic War, but for some reason he did not receive this order. The submission to the order was recently unearthed by my sister's son on the Internet. We didn’t know anything about him before.

[Avior]

Presentation and rewarding are not the same thing.
If you found it in the database on the Feat of the People website, then there was an award, there must be an order and an award sheet
If not in this database, I advise you to check
http://podvignaroda.ru/?#tab=navPeople_search
It seems that there is no such award
But the base is incomplete, in my grandfather I did not find everything

[LeonidL]

The Vlasovites were by no means all for the selection of "white and fluffy", units under the same ROA "brand" actually fought against the partisans in the USSR and against the Red Army at the front, after being reduced to "eastern battalions", but they also fought with the ROA emblems, and quite harshly, with the Canadians and the Americans in France, participated in the destruction of civilians and partisans "Maki". On this score, I recommend reading the memoirs of Chief Lieutenant Vladimir Gerlakh, who commanded such a battalion - two volumes of "The Traitor" were also published in Canada by the publishing house S.B.O.N.R .. He wrote them in a prisoner of war camp. I'll warn you right away - the style of presentation is terrible, but the texture is interesting, instructive. Especially for those who still consider the Vlasovites "fighters against Stalin and sufferers." And an interesting photo - the battalion and its commander in German uniform at the grave of the fallen in France. By the way, they did not want to surrender even by order of the Germans, they called them traitors to the Fuhrer and Germany.

[Astra wild]

"they called them traitors to the Fuhrer and Germany" this can be easily explained: some managed to shed so much blood that they had nothing else to do

[BAI]

War is war. If the 2nd army had not been treacherously thrown into the boiler, there would have been nothing. Vlasov is bad, and Paulus, when he switched to our side, is good? Well, do not forget - more than 20 years have passed since the October Revolution. Enemies of Soviet power on the territory of the USSR were abound.
Here, by the way. I was always surprised by the accusation of working in favor of Japan. Where is Moscow, and where is Japan ?. But then I read the memories of an old woman. In the 30s she was a child, aged 7 - 10.
It turns out there was a state program for the relocation of people from areas (villages) affected by starvation to Siberia and the Far East. Not a link - relocation. Only volunteers. They were provided with carts for transporting property to the railway station, wagons for people and property, wagons for transporting livestock.
A special echelon was formed. The train on the way made stops, in specially designated places, for grazing cattle and cooking food on bonfires. And on Baikal, where the train passes near the water, someone (I wonder who?) derailed the echelon in front with the settlers. As the author recalled: "Things and wreckage of cars were floating in the water. It was very scary."
Obviously, the damaged train was not the only one. Well, who could harm Baikal? Hence it came - "Japanese spy".
So the manifestation of hatred of the Soviet regime could well have been quite widespread, provoking the authorities to take harsh measures against enemies. Democracy and philanthropy were completely inappropriate here. Either with us or against us. Opponents are destroyed.

[Astra wild]

Quote: 1970mk

This photo, as well as the avatar "75" on the site, is a complete rewriting of history. There are simply no Soviet paraphernalia of victory. Polls "Russia won in the Second World War" .. The fact that the Soviet people won the Second World War are generally silent .... Mockery of history in its purest form.

I almost agree with you, but even Stalin, so beloved by some colleagues, raised a toast not for the Soviet people, but for the Russian

[CommanderDIVA]

It is clear that the Vlasovites are traitors, but for some reason we forget the SS divisions, including those formed from traitors to the Motherland who surrendered to the enemy: 14th SS Infantry Division "Galicia" from Ukrainians, 15th and 19th SS divisions from Latvians, 20th SS division from Latvians, 29 SS division "Rona" from Russians, 30 SS division from Belarusians, more than 100000 people in total, moreover, these units were distinguished by particular cruelty, source "Black Order of the SS" Heinz Hene

[Petersburg printing house]

It is interesting to observe how, after the betrayal of Vlasov, Soviet historiography changed and crossed out all the events associated with him. "And he was not an important general, and as a person, he showed himself to be an indifferent and melancholic subject." But at one time, he was almost the main Stalinist general, for which he was honored to give interviews to foreign publications. However, almost all of his colleagues over time, starting with Zhukov and ending with ordinary soldiers, began to talk about the general's military myopia. From the moment the ROA was founded, it was clear that Germany was planning to use it as nothing more than a propaganda tool. Yes, and she hoped to put in the head not Vlasov, but Dmitry Mikhailovich Karbyshev, who refused. In fairness, already being on trial, Vlasov tried to take all the blame upon himself and thereby avert death from his closest associates, but due to the scale of the betrayal he could not.