The concept project of the artillery complex AFAS / M1 - FARV / M1 (USA)

Self-propelled guns AFAS / M1 at firing position

In the mid-eighties, the United States studied the question of creating a promising 155-mm self-propelled howitzer to replace the existing M109 Paladin, which ultimately led to the launch of the AFAS program and the emergence of an experimental self-propelled guns XM2001 Crusader. During this period, a self-propelled artillery complex project was proposed and worked out on the basis of the main combat chassis tank M1 Abrams.

M1 as a platform

The concept was developed by a team of specialists led by Major General Robert J. Sunnell. They offered to make a whole family of vehicles on the M1 chassis called AFV (Armored Family Of Vehicles - “Family of armored vehicles”). This family, along with other machines, included a self-propelled gun mount and a transport-loading machine for it.

The concept remained relevant for a long time and even lived up to the start of the AFAS program (Advanced Field Artillery System - “Advanced Field Artillery System”). At this stage, the self-propelled guns received the designation AFAS / M1. TZM for her was called - FARV / M1 (Future Armored Resupply Vehicle - "Promising armored loading vehicle").

As the basis for self-propelled guns and TZM, a redesigned MBT M1 chassis was proposed. The volume and nature of the improvements depended on the type of equipment under construction, since self-propelled guns and TZM were noticeably different from each other. At the same time, some unification of the new units was provided. Ready tank chassis simplified the production and operation of equipment, but the processing of armor excluded the work in the same order with MBT.

General view of the proposed self-propelled gun

In the AFAS / M1 project, the turret and the most powerful elements of the frontal armor were removed from the chassis. On TZM FARV / M1 also removed the roof of the body. In the nose of such a platform there was a unified crew cabin. In the lower frontal part, under the cabin, a hatch for the transfer of ammunition was provided. Behind the cabin was a superstructure of the desired shape and a tower. The engine-transmission compartment was maintained in the stern.

Self-propelled guns and TZM retained the standard Honeywell AGT1500 engine rated at 1500 hp and transmission. The hydraulic and electrical systems have changed. The undercarriage was not processed, but the possibility of using a hydropneumatic suspension was considered.

SPG AFAS / M1

AFAS / M1 self-propelled howitzer could have an unusual design and significantly differ from most self-propelled guns. The project involved the use of a non-standard layout, wide automation of processes and a developed defense complex.

In the front of the AFAS / M1 hull there was a cabin with the workplaces of four crew members - the driver, commander, gunner and operator of the artillery system. The cockpit was given developed glazing with a good forward view. There were doors on the sides, a hatch in the roof. The commander had a turret with a machine gun. The habitable compartment was to be equipped with a collective system of protection against weapons mass destruction.

The cabin was part of a horseshoe-shaped superstructure. The rear parts of this superstructure were on the fenders. Over the regular shoulder strap of the case there was free space. The superstructure, including the cockpit, had bulletproof booking.

An uninhabited module with the main armament was placed in place of the tank tower. In the transport and combat position, the barrel of the howitzer was heading back in the direction of travel. Horizontal aiming was carried out within the sector limited by the superstructure.

AFAS / M1 self-propelled guns proposed to equip a 155-mm German-made JBMOU gun. The gun under the separate-shotgun loading was fixed on the installation with automatic guidance. A barrel of 52 caliber with a slotted muzzle brake was used. Due to its high power, the howitzer needed advanced recoil devices.

In the tower and in the housing next to the tower were placed the mechanisms of the automatic loader. Nearby, under the cab and in the center of the hull were mechanized piling. Ammunition could include up to 60 rounds with shells for various purposes and modular variable charges MACS. All operations with ammunition, from receiving the car to being sent to the chamber, were to be carried out automatically by crew commands.

It was planned to use a special conveyor for reloading ammunition with TZM. He was on a loading machine and could connect to a self-propelled gun through a hatch in the lower frontal part. After this, the TZM could transfer shells and charges to the combat vehicle. Self-propelled guns automatically laid them on the cells stacking.

Chassis and combat module

According to the calculations of engineers, the automatic loader allowed to make the first 3 shots in 9,2 seconds. With long-term shooting, the pace was set at 9 rds / min. The shooting was under way in a “barrage of fire” mode. A series of 4-8 shots with projectiles being pulled out onto different trajectories took only 4 seconds.

Self-propelled guns needed a new fire control system. Computerized controls, a satellite navigation system, radio communication with the possibility of target designation, etc. were proposed. Also required control algorithms for all on-board automation, unloading the crew.

For self-defense, the AFAS / M1 could carry two different systems at once. On the command tower, the designers placed a machine gun of normal or large caliber. At the starboard side of the superstructure behind the cabin, it was planned to install five cells for the TPK with guided ground-to-air missiles. Thus, the crew could protect themselves and their vehicle from both infantry and aviation.

TZM FARV / M1

To work with self-propelled guns, we developed a unified TZM FARV / M1 on the same chassis with a similar cab. The design of other units and the composition of the equipment differed and corresponded to the role of the machine.

FAVR / M1 received a longer box-shaped superstructure with aft ledges. For its installation it was necessary to remove the roof of the building with a place for the tower. At the front of the superstructure was the cockpit; all other volumes were given for ammunition and their storage / transfer means.

Transport and loading vehicle FARV / M1

The crew of the TZM also consisted of three people and was placed in the cockpit. The cabin kept doors, a hatch and a machine-gun turret. If necessary, one of the crew members could go to the stern of the superstructure, where the second machine-gun turret was located.

To load ammunition containers, the superstructure was equipped with a stern door and a sunroof. This made it possible to take containers from cars or using a crane. Inside the hull and superstructure were placed cells for 180 rounds of separate loading - three full ammunition for self-propelled guns.

To transfer ammunition to the combat vehicle, the VAS (Vehicle Aligment System) was intended. From the hatch in the bow of the TZM, a structure in the form of a truss with a conveyor was to be advanced. She entered the corresponding hatch of the self-propelled guns and gave her shells with charges.

Two main operating modes of the FAVR / M1 and its TZM were proposed. The first involved reloading the ammunition in the reserve position. Loading the entire ammunition took 20-30 minutes. The second mode offered the connection of two vehicles directly at the firing position. In this case, the AFAS / M1 self-propelled guns could fire continuously at targets, and the FAVR / M1 TZM would immediately deliver shells to it. This mode ensured a continuous rate of fire at the level of 10-12 rds / min.

Unlike self-propelled guns, TZM could carry two machine guns for self-defense. There was also a unified onboard compartment for anti-aircraft missiles. The presence of the latter presented certain requirements for on-board electronics.

Promising project

The AFAS / M1 complex concept had a number of positive features and advantages over other self-propelled guns. Machines of this kind could well find a place in the army. Both unification with serial MBT and expected combat qualities received high marks.
For AFAS / M1, the JBMOU gun was offered. With its help, self-propelled guns could attack targets at distances of up to 35-40 km, including using guided munitions. The maximum automation of the preparation for the shot gave a serious increase in performance, and also eliminated the human factor and a decrease in parameters as the work continued. In the future, such a gun showed high performance and found application on self-propelled guns PzH 2000.

The FAVR / M1 transport-loading machine, saturated with automation, was believed to be able to carry out its tasks as simply and efficiently as possible. In addition, the presence of two modes of operation was a plus.

According to estimates of the eighties, the design of self-propelled guns and TZM could take several years. Adoption could take place in the mid-nineties. The operation of such equipment was supposed to last at least until the mid-twenties of the XXI century. By this time, the appearance of fundamentally new samples was expected ..

The use of TZM. Above is the procedure for receiving ammunition from a vehicle; below - work with self-propelled guns

According to some estimates, the AFAS / M1 - FAVR / M1 complex had significant advantages over others in its class. In particular, such self-propelled guns and TZMs could favorably differ from the XM2001 Crusader and XM2002 ARV. The advantages over them were associated with the use of a ready-made chassis and fewer overly new and bold solutions.

Project without prospects

However, the AFV or AFAS / M1 project remained at the concept stage. The army examined the available offers and chose the best of them. The creation of the new self-propelled guns was entrusted to the companies United Defense and General Dynamics - they soon created the product XM2001. This sample reached the test, but did not advance further. The Crusader turned out to be too complicated and expensive, and in 2008 it was abandoned.

It is difficult to say how the development of American self-propelled artillery could go if the Pentagon became interested in the concept project of R.J. Sunnella. The use of ready-made chassis and weapons to a certain extent simplified the project, but the engineers had to develop many other systems. At this stage, one would expect serious difficulties or problems.

Thus, it is quite possible that an attempt to create an AFAS / M - FAVR / M1 complex or other projects of the AFV family would end in the same way as work on the XM2001 Crusader. but story He does not know the subjunctive mood, and currently the US Army has to once again modernize the existing M109 self-propelled guns, and replacing them remains a matter of the distant future.

Comments

[Amateur]

Thus, it is quite possible that an attempt to create an AFAS / M - FAVR / M1 complex or other projects of the AFV family would end in the same way as work on the XM2001 Crusader.

Saw Shura, Saw ...
(I. Ilf, E. Petrov)

[andrewkor]

In what, in what, and in the original, non-standard thinking, American engineers cannot be denied. F-117, B-1, Zumvalt and much more: "any whim for your money"!

[Lopatov]

Quote: andrewkor

In what, in what, and in the original, non-standard thinking American engineers cannot be denied

[A.TOR]

And where do the Americans?

[Lopatov]

British.
Created and launched into the series ACS "backwards"
If you do not understand, the uncle in the hatch is a driver. and in the photo the nose, not the feed of the machine.

So, "thinking outside the box" in this case is more likely British

[A.TOR]

I saw this creation in Bovington, this is British creativity, yes, but the geese do not hang from behind
By the way, "in life" looks quite

[Lopatov]

Quote: A.TOR

By the way, "in life" looks quite

As it looks, the tenth thing, in those days it was not up to grace.

Another thing is that the self-propelled artillery system, which was sharpened purely for the defense of a busy and equipped frontier, was somewhat late. By September 1944, that is, by the beginning of production, other machines were already needed.

[MORDVIN13rus]

So this is British Archer, and this Mandavoshka was purely anti-tank, the only question is how quickly the mechanical water learned to correctly position this Sau.

[Vladimir_2U]

An interesting example, of course a tower without horizontal rotation limitation is better, but with the "hit and change" tactic, it is not particularly needed.

[chenia]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

with the tactic "hit and change" the position, it is not particularly needed.

And if you remove the side walls. can be up to 200 degrees. get horizontals For me it’s enough with my head (well, this is a reflection of the attack of the enemy who broke through the enemy’s base for a possible but not frequent situation for such systems).

[Lopatov]

Quote: chenia

And if you remove the side walls.

No, there are anti-aircraft missile launchers.

[Zufei]

Self-propelled guns and TZM retained the standard Honeywell AGT1500 engine rated at 1500 hp and transmission.

On self-propelled guns and TZM, a turbodiesel is required. A kerosene fuel engine is redundant in power and fuel consumption.

[113262a]

It is multi-fuel!

[Hermit21]

How many approaches to the projectile, and in the series all the same, at least 2S19M / M2 will not surpass the set of characteristics. And they continue to disgrace with a rope in M109

[Sergey79]

2S19M2 is also a very moody model. Very difficult to maintain and use ...

[Hermit21]

And now you cite numerous examples of breakdowns, failures, difficulties and inconveniences during operation that reduce combat effectiveness

[Lopatov]

Quote: Hermit21

And now you cite numerous examples of breakdowns, failures, difficulties and inconveniences during operation that reduce combat effectiveness

I will give an example of a forty-minute search for an answer to the question “why doesn’t work”. It turned out that the blocking of the MV hatch closing did not work, and from the commander's seat it could be seen within a second.

It's just that it's complicated, they have been studying them in a military school for two years. In the presence of a normal simulator.
In short, not for a conscripted army.

[Hermit21]

Well, yes, yes, because of this, the 2S19M2, one of the three best serial self-propelled guns in the world, becomes worthless backward junk

[Lopatov]

Quote: Hermit21

becomes worthless backward junk

Just challenging for self-propelled guns
Because she. in fact, and "capricious". From lack of knowledge about her

[infantryman2020]

For hurray-stalkers with a "string":
1) at least for now, "Msta" is an obsolete (obsolete) ballistic / design solution implemented in metal. What is the reason for the lag behind the best world models in terms of firing range and tactics ("flurry of fire");
2) the troops are full of 2C19 early modifications;
3) the troops are still full of 2C3; and, even (oh, horror !, 2C1);
4) up to 2C19, we did not receive normal TZM. Just do not say that real warriors do not need it at all, only effeminate capitalists;
5) the enemies, unfortunately, have a capable ACS TZ and its segment that ensures the coordination of fire support. And thus I successfully compensate and overcompensate my "strings".

[Lopatov]

Quote: infantryman2020

1) at least for now, "Msta" is an obsolete (obsolete) ballistic / design solution implemented in metal. What is the reason for the lag behind the best world models in terms of firing range and tactics ("flurry of fire");

Verbally.
And about the super-duper "flurry of fire" - the mode is available even to mortars from the Second World War.
Materiel ....

Quote: infantryman2020

the troops are full of 2C19 early modifications;

They initially had automatic loading of shells and semi-automatic charges.

Quote: infantryman2020

up to 2S19 we did not get normal TZM

But why?
Cargocult?
TZM have only American self-propelled guns and their clones. And by the way, 2C19 TZM also does not.

Quote: infantryman2020

And thus I successfully compensate and overcompensate my "strings".

You see, if you have a silicon gun, then even a super radio station will not help you.
"Compensation" is not possible. The situation in American artillery is, to put it mildly, very strange.

[3danimal]

. What for?
Cargocult?
TZM have only American self-propelled guns

Recharge speed and security. Why weapons and armor on TZM?

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Recharge speed and security.

Dear, even 2С1 and 2С3 replenish faster than BC. Without any TZM, just from the ground. Not to mention 2C19

[3danimal]

And any eccentric with a gun will disable the group reloading the self-propelled guns. Or a drone from plywood and sticks with RGD on a leash.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

And any freak with a gun

A freak with a gun in the rear is a huge problem. Especially when you consider that the lion's share of the American barrel artillery is towed.

Quote: 3danimal

reloading self-propelled guns.

The fact of the matter is that our self-propelled guns do not reload, but simply shoot from the ground. Using transportable BC only as a last resort.

And not only, by the way, with us.
For example, the Germans, similarly.

[3danimal]

. if you have silicon rouge, then even a superradio station will not help you.

Explain.

[Lopatov]

The barrel artillery of the American Army and NG is:
(10 + 5) x 3 x 6 = 270 created 60 years ago by self-propelled guns. Repeatedly modernized, but ...
(7 + 2) x 3 x 6 + (5 + 5 + 3 + 20) x 1 x 6 = 360 towed M777. Very expensive, limited to airmobiles and not adapted to counter-battery combat. The only (!!!) 155 mm modern axle boxes. guns in the world without self-propelled systems
(5 + 5 + 3 + 20) x 2 x 6 = 396 towed 105 mm howitzers. Also not adapted to counter-battery. Forced decision due to limited air mobility M777

From such things ...

No ACS can fix this tin ...

[Hermit21]

2S19M2 out of date? How long has this been with her?

What is the reason for the lag behind the best world models in terms of firing range and tactics ("flurry of fire")

And what is the firing range of the world's best models? Serial shells, and not specifically for the record or which are not yet in the BC. And then the 2S19M2 has "over 40 kilometers", and how much it is over is rather vague. By the way, she has a fire raid mode.

the army is full of 2C19 early modifications

Which is less, because There is a modernization or replacement for 2S19M / M2

the troops are still full of 2C3; and, even (oh, horror !, 2C1)

Cool. But we are talking about "Mstu-S". "Carnation" is generally a regimental SPG. Why did you bring her in - it is absolutely incomprehensible.

up to 2C19 we did not get normal TZM. Just don’t say that real soldiers do not need it at all

This was not discussed at all. By the way, when did TZM appear in effeminate capitalists?

the enemies, unfortunately, have a capable ACS TZ and its segment that provides coordination of fire support. And thus I successfully compensate and overcompensate my "strings".

Ay lol! Hurry up to see! Control subnet increases rate of fire! And the Americans, for some reason, set an example of the effectiveness of Russian artillery in places not so distant and noted the speed and accuracy of fire, deployment, change of position, outright replaying the opposite side.

Well, we also have ESU TK, artillery and artillery units are equipped with ASUNO, KAUO when modernizing, the tactics of the RCM are introduced. 2C19 is already 109-2 times faster than M3, and in 2C19M / 2 this indicator was increased to 8-10 and 10-12 v / m. Plus, the introduction of new SLAs and tactics that allow quicker deployment, faster and more accurate fire, spend fewer times less ammunition and faster reel. So no matter how you feed a bald eagle, the bear is longer and thicker

[strannik1985]

And what is the range of the best world models?

And most importantly, why do you need a prohibitive range in the presence of MLRS and fuel dispensers?

[Hermit21]

A good owner and a tripper come in handy. You can always pass it on to someone. In fact, MLRS can not always be at hand, and OTRK weapons, nevertheless, for other tasks and
other subordination. Therefore, having at hand a self-propelled guns with a range of 40+ kilometers is quite justified

[strannik1985]

In fact, MLRS

At a distance of up to 40 km, it’s exactly what is always at hand, from the battery (regiment) to the division (brigade).

[infantryman2020]

To two opponents at once:
1) 2C19 backwardness is determined by the current Western standard for points. solution - barrel length, charge displacement + our lag in gunpowder;
what is "keeping in the air 18 minutes of a 120-mm mortar", I know, but why equate one with the other? We're not talking about mortars. Hyperboles are useless. You are a professional, and I am not a pioneer either;

2) the meaning of the statement is that it is not necessary to compare the latest modification, which is, conventionally, one third or half of the entire fleet, but the entire fleet of self-propelled artillery in active units. Therefore, 2C1 is also "braided" here;
I agree about the strange situation with American artillery;

3) such stupidity as the division into regimental and divisional artillery remained only with us. Enemies have a standard gauge and, accordingly, ammunition, (with some exceptions). But we did not go further than the corresponding slogan in the 90s;

And, yes, I suggest not to "poke", we did not drink vodka together, we did not sit together in the trench;

4) There are many who have TZM. Offhand, for example, among Koreans. But there are many originals and clones of American self-propelled guns.
For Americans, TZM - practically, since the appearance of the M109, only the concept and appearance of TZM have changed a lot;
We have that, each SG 2S19, incl. early modifications, has "its" TPM?

I understand that modern logistics is also useless for us (TZM, pallets, multielevators, loaders, etc.), we transfer boxes with shells with our hands;

5) rhetorical questions: how many regiments, brigades, and divisions are equipped with capable ACS TK? (only information from the media for pioneers do not need to operate);
the degree of equipping artillery with drones in them and with us?
equipping artillery spotters with them and with us? (for example, ah, LOL, I am amused by the mass and size of the equipment for the guidance of our "Krasnopols", because it should be equipped with a specialist not only at the front line, but also behind enemy lines.

I understand that "Westerners" and "our patriots" clashed here. But Westerners, as a rule, are also patriots, only without the prefix "hurray-".
(into what life-giving quarantine does, time has appeared, LOL)

[Hermit21]

The Internet denies hierarchy and tying is the norm.

How did we, with such a lag in the "ballistic solution", reach 80+ for the "Koala"? Suddenly it turns out that the 2S19 has a lot of reserves in terms of range, how then can the star-striped idols be excused.

And what, all western self-propelled guns have their own TPM? Pallets, multi-lifts, loaders? Or maybe there, as in a joke about the difference between "hypothetically" and "practically"?

[Lopatov]

Quote: infantryman2020

what is "keeping in the air 18 minutes of a 120-mm mortar", I know, but why equate one with the other?

This is not "equal", this is evidence of your misunderstanding of what a "pseudo-salvo" \ MRSI
Because again: materiel.
Here I have the D-30 Shooting Tables lying around, I can easily sign pseudo-volleys for this howitzer.
The pseudo-volley was not used not because the materiel did not allow it. But because the regime itself is not optimal, and for its application many calculations are necessary. Shooting normal volleys with the introduction of corrections after each is much more effective.

Quote: infantryman2020

the meaning of the statement is that it is necessary to compare not the latest modification, which, conditionally, makes up one-third and a half of the entire fleet, but the entire fleet of self-propelled arillery in active units.

Then why self-propelled?
Most American guns are 105-mm towed howitzers.
Will we compare?

Quote: infantryman2020

such stupidity as division into regimental and divisional artillery remained only with us.

If, as with the Americans, the barrel artillery is presented exclusively in the artillery battalions of brigades, then really, why separate it?

Quote: infantryman2020

There are many who have TZM. Offhand, for example, among Koreans.

That's the whole "vskidka" ...
Leaders like the Germans have no such nonsense. They just think in combat ...

Quote: infantryman2020

We have that, each SG 2S19, incl. early modifications, has "its" TPM?

None. It is just not necessary.
The funniest thing. that the vast majority of American guns also do without TZM.
However, because of the "advanced logistics" with pallets that can only be moved by crane, this is very inconvenient. And it's dangerous.

Quote: infantryman2020

(for example, ah, LOL, I am amused by the mass and size of the equipment for the guidance of our "Krasnopolis"

You just don’t know the materiel 8)))
American LCD is also rather big

Quote: infantryman2020

I understand that "Westerners" and "our patriots" clashed here.

Rather, adequacy versus worship.

[3danimal]

. American LCD is also rather big

Excalibur has GPS guidance, KVO 2m.

Rather, adequacy versus worship.

And Lefty is the very first “admirer." Seen enough and began to tell everyone, you understand that the British do not clean their guns with a brick , faith in weapons to undermine.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Excalibur has GPS guidance, KVO 2m.

Hooray!!!!
One that has a 2 mile water quasi-wave has also semi-active LGSN.
Materiel, materiel, materiel ...

Quote: 3danimal

And Lefty is the very first “admirer”

Left-handed is adequacy
He would never call this advanced logistics:

But this is "fu, gray-footed"

just because "advanced logistics", when there is nothing without a crane, is used by (aspirated) Americans

[3danimal]

This is called "pulling the facts." The first photo in the warehouse warehouse? In addition, any auxiliary equipment there is always in abundance.
And on firing shells served TZM ..

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

The first photo in the warehouse warehouse?

No, dear, that’s how Americans transport shells in this way.
Non-boarded on pallets

How warm, advanced logistics. Advanced because American.

Not like the blue-footed. Which are served on firing shells in an individual corking. It used to be wooden, now to make it cheaper - from polymer materials. Savages !.

[infantryman2020]

Are you an apologist of the other extreme? - manual loading unloading boxes with shells by calculation forces? Mauger, after all, the truth, somewhere in between?
At least from Afghanistan there are statistics on how much we lost due to vehicle downtime due to low mechanization of loading and unloading, including ammunition.
Or are you just "adequate professionals" here, and moreover "politically NOT engaged degenerates"?
Each has its own competencies, only the VUS is different.

[Lopatov]

Quote: infantryman2020

Are you an apologist of the other extreme? - manual loading unloading boxes with shells by calculation forces?

This is not "extreme", this is common
Even for Americans. They just do it more uncomfortable

They have to arrange dances with tambourines when carrying, it is more difficult for them to protect shells from dust, dirt, the sun. They have to rock shells ...

But for the sake of advanced logistics of the times of the Second World War, after all, can you be patient?

[Hermit21]

only information from the media for pioneers do not need to operate

Is someone afraid for the safety of their green world?

the degree of equipping artillery with drones in them and with us?

By the size of the fleet, the UAV’s UAVs are the second in the world - in the region of 2000 units. I do not think that the gunners were greatly offended by drones. Look at almost any video or photo report from the RV&A exercises over the past 3-4 years. At least one, but it will fall into the frame.

But Westerners, as a rule, are also patriots, only without the prefix "hurray-".

Most are politically engaged degenerates who judge the effectiveness of technology by belonging to a particular flag. The funny thing is that they are often dunked into the western materiel by opponents who are buried, from which country this or that equipment

[3danimal]

. like a bald eagle no feed, the bear is longer and thicker

Different weight categories.
In addition to the rate of fire, mobility and preparation of the calculation (how many firing per year) are important.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

and preparation of the calculation (how many firing per year).

Even in the filthy Yeltsin era, combat firing was carried out at least twice a year. Are you sure there are more Americans?

[3danimal]

. Are you sure there are more Americans?

A larger military budget and a fully professional army make it possible to conduct exercises more often, not to worry about saving ammunition in their course, and to have more trained and motivated gunners.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

A larger military budget and a fully professional army make it possible to conduct exercises more often, not to worry about saving ammunition in their course, and to have more trained and motivated gunners.

Blah blah blah.
Common phrases ... On the topic "money is everything"

In Russia, EVERY artillery officer performs a real fire mission once every half a year.
This is in addition to solving problems, in addition to training on a laser or rifle artillery range, in addition to shooting from the ACS.
Every half-year artillery unit takes part in at least one BTU with live firing, plus battery and divisional tactical exercises with live firing. Plus shooting service for officers.
And so it was even under Yeltsin.

[3danimal]

I mean that in the US Army there are no conscripts driven out from under the stick, who are of much less use than from the pros.
I know for sure about the infantry: there is no limit on ammunition for shooting (with regards to money), both in units and in training.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

I mean that in the US Army there are no conscripts driven out from under the stick

I apologize, but this is completely gone nonsense ...
You also write "democracy in the United States, and therefore they shoot more accurately.

Quote: 3danimal

I know for sure about the infantry: there is no limit on ammunition on firing

shells are not so cheap.

[3danimal]

Shells are not so cheap, but for our aircraft and bullets, obviously, are a little expensive. Simple mapping.

You also write "democracy in the United States, and therefore they shoot more accurately..

No, they have a fully professional army, frequent exercises with a large consumption of shells, so they shoot more accurately. The answer to the question “what to do” is obvious.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Shells are not so cheap, but for our aircraft and bullets, obviously, are a little expensive.

"Obviously" to whom?
Here, for example, we had all classes on fire conducted, plus they fired on each guard duty before each interception.
And oddly enough, this did not at all have any effect on how trained the officers were in the JMA

Quote: 3danimal

No, they have a fully professional army, frequent exercises with a large consumption of shells

And we again return to the original.
Are you sure the flow is greater? Because, aspirated, Americans?

For each artillery officer, at least 12 shells (shooting with a rangefinder) once every half a year. That is, the regiment’s division should only shoot 432 shells per season for officers, for one field exit. In real life, more, because other fire missions require more ammunition. Plus live firing exercises, plus infantry drills in which batteries / divisions are involved.

[3danimal]

. Are you sure the flow is greater? Because, aspirated, Americans? laughing laughing laughing

Shells cost money, more army budget - more shells and training.
Conscripts are always worse fighters than pros. A relic of the past.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Shells cost money

Shells have to be disposed of. Fact.

Quote: 3danimal

Conscripts are always worse fighters than pros.

Sofa yes.
In real life, no.

Quote: 3danimal

A relic of the past.

Tell it to the israelis

[3danimal]

. In real life, no.

My friend, who left the army (the Russian Federation, not a couch) as a lieutenant colonel, will not agree with you. He says that a serious task can only be entrusted to contractors.
Israel is not the best example, it has its own specifics.

. Shells have to be disposed of. Fact.

Including precision? And how often? A larger army budget means more vigorous opportunities.
(Seriously, it looks like you're just trying to justify the existing order of things.)

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

My friend, who left the army (the Russian Federation, not a couch) as a lieutenant colonel, will not agree with you. He says that a serious task can only be entrusted to contractors.

Because he, as an officer, did not fulfill his main role?
I, as having commanded in the rank of major with real experience in military operations, I agree with your friend. What better to entrust something to double bass than to someone like him.

In regards to the contrabass conscript ... second train much easier.
Normally trained from each other are no different.
Nearly. Conscripts more adequately evaluate their own training

Quote: 3danimal

Including precision?

With high-precision Americans, in general, everything is sour. "High precision" is a point target with a probability of 0.5. They had them, the Copheads. They will have them - "Excaliburs S".
But at present they do not have high-precision. Unlike Russia

Quote: 3danimal

And how often?

We shot once a year at the division. On BTU ostentatious. The simplest of the tasks.

Especially compared to shooting a real rapper or shooting for destruction (for me, the most difficult of the tasks)

[3danimal]

We shot once a year at the division. On BTU ostentatious.

The simplest, but we must be able to apply them. Both on static goals and on the march. Once in otd - because it is expensive, the budget does not allow. To the question of money ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

The simplest, but we must be able to apply them.

To do this, you do not need to shoot them.
As with anti-tank systems. You can learn how to use them normally only if you have a normal simulator.
But this is so, nonsense.
We are discussing artillery. The use of VT ammunition is not its main task.

[3danimal]

In regards to the contrabass conscript ... second train much easier.
Normally trained from each other are no different.
Nearly. Conscripts more adequately evaluate their own training

Is it more adequate, in terms of understanding, that it is insufficient? Normally trained? - What about the motivation of a person who does not need and is not interested? (Which was driven by force under the threat of a prison term).
About the training of sergeants, there is such an article:
http://army.lv/ru/Pora-nachat-sozdavat-institut-professionalnih-mladshih-komandirov/402/3617
“... That is, from now on, two-thirds of sergeants are supposed to be“ released “in a proven“ grandfather's ”way, that is, in four months. It is not worth proving that during this time it is impossible to train a sergeant who can be entrusted with tanks worth more than one million dollars and crew training. Since neither the USSR nor present-day Russia calculated how much time is needed to train a sergeant-specialist of the Ground Forces, I will refer to American data. In the United States, it was estimated that it would take at least five years to train a ground sergeant ... ”

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Is it more adequate, in terms of understanding, that it is insufficient?

That they tend to underestimate their training rather than overestimate. What contract soldiers are inclined to.

Quote: 3danimal

What about the motivation of a person who does not need and is not interested?

Here is my word of honor, I have never encountered one before. Although there were all sorts. Up to fighters with an incomplete higher.

Quote: 3danimal

That is, from now on, two-thirds of sergeants are supposed to be "released" in a proven "grandfather" way, that is, in four months.

The author "forgot" that the training of sergeants continues in the troops.

Quote: 3danimal

In the United States, it was estimated that it would take at least five years to train a ground sergeant ... ”

Well, I don’t know, maybe Zadornov is right, and he has to do longer out of an American sergeant.
Or maybe the author just does not quite understand the role of a sergeant in the Russian army, and wants someone as a training officer, but at the same time with a complete lack of careerism, with readiness to stick out all his service in one position ...
As for me, there is an element of lordship here. "I don't have to do my job for you."

So it's all past.
It is possible to prepare a gun commander from a person without signs of dyscalculia in half a year. And the ideal option is to "raise" the gunner. And not to retrain the sergeant from the training.
With the commanders of reconnaissance and communications departments is more difficult. By the end of the second period of training will be already sufficiently prepared. That is, about 8 months. But again, it’s easier from the ground up to prepare, for the specific officers with whom they will work.

[3danimal]

Here is my word of honor, I have never encountered one before. Although there were all sorts. Up to fighters with an incomplete higher.

With the incomplete higher - exceptions (although they can be especially remembered - due to errors and biases of our memory).
Perhaps the point is the low requirements for the same sergeants. Often, these are people with combat experience. In the States, this is a whole institute; there is a representative of the sergeant corps at the General Staff.
In any case, a person who has served for 1-2 years as an ordinary or corporal and a couple of years as a sergeant should be better prepared and able to do more than a conscript with a year of service. Indeed, many of them do not remain in the army (this was discussed).
About Zadornov: it would be funny if it were not mentioned so often Seriously? A comedian who made a career on jokes about stupid foreigners and stories about Hyperborea is an authoritative source of information ??
Once again about motivation: most conscripts did not come voluntarily and do not plan to remain in the army. The analogy with production suggests itself - trainees (who have no goals to gain a foothold in this place) are extremely uninterested in work. Especially for free. They come in the morning and wait for the end of the working day, often imitating activities. You can’t fire them too - sort of social. load. Just like conscripts.
Better with a pro. A man has come - that means he has goals. Does not cope regularly, does not want to correct and develop - let him look for another occupation.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Once again about motivation: most conscripts did not come voluntarily and do not plan to remain in the army. The analogy with production suggests itself - trainees (who have no goals to gain a foothold in this place) are extremely uninterested in work. Especially for free.

Tell it to the Israelites. They will laugh at you for a long time.

Quote: 3danimal

Better with a pro. A man has come - that means he has goals. Does not cope regularly, does not want to correct and develop - let him look for another occupation.

Pros killed. He fell ill, injured, became disabled ...
What to do?
Stop the war while learning a new one?
It seems that you simply do not understand why you need a conscription service.

[3danimal]

Tell it to the Israelites. They will laugh at you for a long time.

We can talk about the Japanese experience of how to live without minerals on our territory and be the third economy in the world
Russians (post-Soviet) are not Israelis. A different mentality, a different responsibility, developed in a hostile environment and the threat of life and extermination in the event of military defeat.

Pros killed. He fell ill, injured, became disabled ...
What to do?
Stop the war while learning a new one ?.

This problem arose in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when there were massive clashes with tens and hundreds of thousands of victims. Now, having modern technology and weapons, this is not relevant. The dead 10 sergeants will replace 10 others, pros.
There is American experience: to keep part of the pros (who have served 4-8 years under the contract) in a “readiness mode” in civilian life, paying extra for this, periodically calling for training.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

We can talk about the Japanese experience of how to live without minerals on our territory and be the third economy in the world

Ready to chat about anything. only to divert discussions from the reinforced concrete fact of the backwardness of American artillery?

Quote: 3danimal

Now, having modern technology and weapons, this is not relevant.

Tell it to the Israelis ...

Quote: 3danimal

Now, having modern technology and weapons, this is not relevant.

You can put anyone off the street, he will immediately become a pro?

Quote: 3danimal

There is American experience: to keep part of the pros (who have served 4-8 years under the contract) in a “readiness mode” in civilian life, paying extra for this, periodically calling for training.

This is called a "microscopic mob reserve".

[3danimal]

. You can put anyone off the street, he will immediately become a pro?

From the street, suitable for service and motivated (who came voluntarily and for money and benefits), who completed training and a year or two of service (for private and corporal).

This is called a "microscopic mob reserve".

However, it is enough, the conflicts of the scale of campaigns in the Persian Gulf (with proper planning and NOT saving ammunition).
Planning large-scale battles in the spirit of World Wars?
The Israelis with their conscripts are not a good example. The neighbors do not want and cannot interrupt us, a different situation and mentality.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

From the street, suitable for service and motivated (who came voluntarily and for money and benefits), who completed training and a year or two of service (for private and corporal)

The war is already over by this time. And not the fact that a victory.

Quote: 3danimal

However its enough

Ага.
And to cut the tonsils through the anus is normal. If Americans do that ....

Quote: 3danimal

The Israelis with their conscripts are not a good example.

Because they completely refute stupid calculations?

Quote: 3danimal

The neighbors do not want and cannot kill us

Yah?
They cannot, yes. And what about "do not want" is, to put it mildly, not true.

[3danimal]

. Because they completely refute stupid calculations?

Exceptions confirming the rule do not refute anything.

And what about "don't want" is, to put it mildly, not true.

In the 21st century? Examples

The war is already over by this time. And not the fact that a victory.

For the modern CONVENTION war, a mini-reserve is enough. In another scenario, it is unlikely to be needed ("there is nothing to run through the ruins").

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Exceptions confirming the rule do not refute anything.

Denies everything.
Literally any of your calculations. And about motivation, and about the level of training, about almost everything.

Quote: 3danimal

In the 21st century? Examples

On the Internet banned?

Quote: 3danimal

For the modern CONVENTION war, a mini-reserve is enough.

Understood .... Globe of Ukraine ....
Use a normal atlas. NATO; Caucasus; Middle Asia; China; Japan; Americans, Canadians and other "restorers of correct justice" in the Arctic ...

By the way, this Ukraine is a great example of the incapacity of the very contract army that you advocate.
Even the low-intensity conflict turned out to be so tough that it was necessary, apart from the renewal of the call, to start partial mobilization.

[3danimal]

Even the low-intensity conflict turned out to be so tough that it was necessary, apart from the renewal of the call, to start partial mobilization.

Without our “brotherly” help, the conflict would have ended very quickly.

NATO; Caucasus; Middle Asia; China; Japan; Americans, Canadians and other "restorers of correct justice" in the Arctic ...

Does NATO want to kill all Russians? (Namely this, with respect to the Jews, the leaders of Egypt, Syria and others, confident in victory and intoxicated by Soviet support, spoke. Why and how? They would protect themselves in Europe.
Does the USA have territorial claims against the Russian Federation? And the herbivore Canadians for what the aggressors recorded? the Americans only had the experience of shooting our mercenaries in Syria (and then defending themselves when they tried "weakly"), with these there were no hassles at all
Japan WOULD LIKE to return the islands and, possibly, Sakhalin, but not at any cost and, again, without genocidal intentions (we are talking about the 21st century, I will clarify).
The Arctic will be developed by those who have the funds for this and workable business models. Our site, amid problems with international cooperation, can be idle for a long time, IMHO. And here you can’t see the benefits for which one should wish for a bloody (at least for themselves) war and plans for genocide (and this is an essential point that motivated the Israelis earlier and now).
China .. This is a really dangerous and incredibly strong neighbor who has claims and accounts (from the 19th century) to us. Which the Russian Federation will not be able to defeat in the convention conflict, even throwing ALL citizens into the furnace of war. The Chinese mob has many times more reserves. Here the limiting factor is only nuclear weapons, its significant amount that can cause unacceptable losses.
Therefore, the Tigers play for a long time, work through the economy and our traditional corruption and greed of officials who pass laws to prohibit criticizing themselves

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Without our “brotherly” help, the conflict would have ended very quickly.

Well, of course 8))))
Two cities, Slavyansk and Nalchik.
The population of 100 thousand and 200 thousand, respectively.
The enemy had 52 and 217 active bayonets at the beginning of the confrontation, respectively.
Almost three months and a half days, respectively.
So it goes....

There is no need to tell tales about "they would have torn everyone if it were not for the Buryat light diving cavalry."

Quote: 3danimal

Does NATO want to kill all Russians?

I don’t know what they want. Money, probably. For weapons barons. Which without a normal enemy can not be earned.
But the risk of confrontation is very high. And it has a tendency to increase.

Quote: 3danimal

They would protect themselves in Europe.

From whom????? What nonsense are you writing?

Quote: 3danimal

Which the Russian Federation will not be able to defeat in the convention conflict, even throwing ALL citizens into the furnace of war. The Chinese mob has many times more reserves.

History is worth knowing .... And geography .. I will tell you, Mongolia.
But what you suddenly remembered about mobrezerv- pleases

[3danimal]

if not for the Buryat light diving cavalry "..

If it weren’t for the thousands of “volunteers” and, more importantly, “vacationers” (a lot of whom were buried in Pskov in 2014-2015), I hadn’t seen Voentorg and the birdfall that followed after its opening (including a large transport carrier for MANPADS, altitude, shortly before the Boeing).
(Do not believe me, in those days I looked at the course in great detail and sympathized with Strelkov’s comrades.)

I don’t know what they want.

The keywords “I don’t know” and “probably”. After all, if for years they have been saying that they want to attack us, consciousness tries to find excuses for inconsistencies of propaganda itself.

From whom????? What nonsense are you writing?

Forces in Europe will have enough maximum defense against our hypothetical offensive. For many years, there has been a reduction in military budgets, the United States in the person of Trump has already put it in sight. For the attack on us is not enough strength. And none of the European leaders suffers from adventurism (well, there weren’t and could not appear Hitlers with unlimited power).

History is worth knowing .... And geography .. I will tell you, Mongolia.

I have repeatedly specified (assuming a desire to delve into the distant past) - 21st century, not 12-13th
And China, by the way, attacked the territory of the Russian Federation (RSFSR) not so long ago and achieved its concession (Damansky).

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

If not for thousands of “volunteers”

Is Russian too difficult? Although I did not write "52" in words.
Dear, "52" is not "thousand" This is ten times five fingers plus 2.

Quote: 3danimal

many of which turned out to be buried in 2014-2015 in Pskov - I saw

Lying is bad.
You, apparently, have slanted from the army, because you allow such mistakes.

Quote: 3danimal

The keywords “I don’t know” and “probably”. Indeed, if for years they have been saying that they want to attack us, consciousness tries to find excuses for propaganda itself.

What are they going to do?
Well, let's compose ...
Why is NATO so close to our borders?
Why withdraw from missile defense type agreements?
Why maintain an army that is much larger than the Russian and spend money on it, significantly exceeding Russian spending?
And so forth ...

Quote: 3danimal

For the attack on us is not enough strength.

Nonsense.
The total number of troops in NATO countries amounted to 3,26 million. And it is growing.
The RF Ministry of Defense is 0,9 million people.
NATO has more than three times its strength. This is enough for the eyes of aggression.

Quote: 3danimal

I have repeatedly specified (assuming a desire to delve into the distant past) - 21st century, not 12-13th

Poorly specified.
A blow from the territory of Mongolia to the Gulf of Bohai dismembers China. And then high numbers cease to matter.

[3danimal]

Why is NATO so close to our borders?

NATO is not a state, but an organization to which independent countries are, or are not voluntarily included. Other members may refuse them.

Why withdraw from missile defense type agreements?

The USA with which it was signed, not with the Organization, came out of the ABM Treaty.

Why maintain an army that is much larger than the Russian and spend money on it, significantly exceeding Russian spending?

It includes many countries, more than a third of the total number - the US Army, in second place Turkey. Do all countries entering there need to regulate the size of their armies so that they do not inadvertently exceed our total? Then they need to be disbanded, only the US Armed Forces are enough
Costs .. What prevents us from entering the top five of the world's first economies and afford military spending at least a quarter of the US? Masonic conspiracy 2000 years ago?
At the same time, many of these countries precisely reduced military budgets and the number of armies.

The total number of troops in NATO countries amounted to 3,26 million. And it is growing.

And most of it is made up of the US Armed Forces, located mainly NOT in Europe. There is still Turkey. Western European countries do not have the necessary potential for a successful attack on us.

[Lopatov]

Reasoning about nothing.
The fact remains that the NATO bloc, led by the United States, is actively preparing for aggression against Russia, and has sufficient potential for such aggression.

Quote: 3danimal

And most of it is made up of the US Armed Forces, located mainly NOT in Europe. There is still Turkey. Western European countries do not have the necessary potential for a successful attack on us.

That is, the United States and Turkey are not taken into account?
Well
Then in Russia we do not take into account the Eastern and Central districts, designed to protect against the United States, Japan and China. And also South, as intended to protect against Turkey.

In this case, the advantage of European NATO countries over Western HE looks even more pronounced

[3danimal]

. Reasoning about nothing.
The fact remains. NATO led by the United States is actively preparing for aggression against Russia, and has sufficient potential

This is what “faith” inspired by propaganda is: you start to sort things out with the person, and he gets off with general phrases in the spirit of “yes everyone knows that”. Never evidence.
The fact is that you have been consistently invested in your head, starting from school (from the first grade, remember - Rodina, Lenin?) The provisions needed by the “party” (no matter which), and therefore to everyone (the party is good and not mistaken )
Modern propaganda is trying to work on the old "foundation", carefully circumventing Marxism-Leninism (the bourgeoisie want to strangle the socialist state), doing more on the national issues - "they always did not love Russians" and "everyone wants our bowels" (to capture, though quite successfully buy).
Let me remind you that the great wars started by countries led by a monarch or dictator with unlimited power (1 and 2 MB), who could easily neglect the large losses among fellow citizens. What are some of these in NATO countries?
And try to make out in detail.

That is, the United States and Turkey are not taken into account?

Most of the US Armed Forces (the most combat-ready and equipped among the alliance members) are not located in Europe.
Let me remind you that countries joining the Organization should not reduce (or disband) their armies so as not to bother Russia with their “combined potential”.
In addition, the main condition for joint action is an attack on the territory of one of the NATO members, otherwise (not so long ago, they raised this issue again). What makes the Organization exactly defensive.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

This is what “faith” inspired by propaganda

For lack of facts, they decided to spit on the opponent's guano?
"Only a person with a brainwashed propaganda doesn't take my word for it?"

We will consider that you have no arguments. It’s not interesting for me to discuss myself with you.

Quote: 3danimal

Let me remind you that the great wars started by countries led by a monarch or dictator with unlimited power (1 and 2 MB), who could easily neglect the large losses among fellow citizens. What are some of these in NATO countries?

I would better call the NATO war.
Since the collapse of the USSR, this bloc has committed an act of aggression against at least four countries.
Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya
You see, “monarchs or dictators” are not needed at all for aggressive behavior. It is enough to realize your own permissiveness.

Quote: 3danimal

Most of the US Armed Forces (the most combat-ready and equipped among the alliance members) are not located in Europe.

So what?
The largest foreign American military force is stationed in the Far East. Japan and South Korea. And this group threatens Russia in the same way as a group in Europe.

Once again, if you "subtract" the US and Turkey from NATO, "because they are not in Europe," then you need to subtract all the districts from the RF Armed Forces, except the Western one.

In short, no matter what you think up, the NATO strength advantage is more than tripled. And this means that such an amount is easily enough for aggression. And not just for defense ...

Quote: 3danimal

In addition, the main condition for joint action is an attack on the territory of one of the NATO members, otherwise (not so long ago, they raised this issue again). What makes the Organization exactly defensive.

Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ....
Defense in its purest form ...
Are you not ashamed to lie?

[3danimal]

Iraq

Are you talking about 1991m (when Hussein committed aggression, or about 2003m)? And how are things in Iraq right now - the Gauleiter and the military administration rule?

. We will consider that you have no arguments.

So it was you who weren’t found. Excuses began in the style of "everyone knows that."
Didn’t they tell you about the Motherland and Lenin in the first grade? (of course, these are synonyms)

Югославия

There was a civil war going on, no? (On the territory of the entire former Yugoslavia) And after a series of interventions (the bloody scenario, which we mostly managed to avoid), it stopped. Is anyone captured, enslaved?

Afghanistan

We kind of went there too, no? For humanitarian purposes only
But the Taliban are really sorry, good guys.

Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ....

What unites these countries and is very different from the Russian Federation? - Their weakness, technological backwardness and lack of nuclear weapons. The possibility of carrying out the mentioned campaigns was, inter alia, due to minimal losses.
So you can sleep peacefully. In addition, the number of special services and internal troops significantly exceeds the composition of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which speaks better than words about the real priorities and concerns of our leaders. (And they will continue to scare us with the terrible NATO and Mickey Mouse on the tank)

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Are you talking about 1991m (when Hussein committed aggression, or about 2003m)? And how are things in Iraq right now - the Gauleiter and the military administration rule?

2003. Aggression in its purest form.

Quote: 3danimal

So it was you who weren’t found.

Do you have problems with the Russian language?

Quote: 3danimal

Excuses began in the style of "everyone knows that."

I even brought the numbers. Unlike you.

Quote: 3danimal

There was a civil war going on, no?

It's still an act of aggression

Quote: 3danimal

We kind of also been there, no?

We? No.
The USSR visited it, "Evil Empire"

Quote: 3danimal

What unites these countries and is very different from the Russian Federation? what - Their weakness,

While they learned in a crowd to kick the fallen and sick.
However, this does not mean that the strong are safe.
This crowd of gopniks can easily decide that Russia can handle it ...

Quote: 3danimal

In addition, the number of special services and internal troops significantly exceeds the composition of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which speaks better than words about the real priorities and concerns of our leaders.

USA.
Armed forces 1.3 million
Police officers 0.9 million, Ministry of Internal Security 0.24 million, National Guard 0.46 million
Oops?

[3danimal]

... The USSR visited it, "Evil Empire"

Not an evil empire, but with inadequate Bolsheviks at the head (“the victory of world communism”, “proletarians of all countries ..” and so on). With the available forces, it was worth the fear.

. This crowd of gopniks can easily decide that Russia can handle it ...

And do not care about the millions of victims of their citizens? You forget that in the leadership of these countries there are no dictators who can not give a damn about this fact.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Not an evil empire

"Evil Empire". Officially.
Why "hail on the hill" did exactly the same, ask them.

[3danimal]

Empire of Evil ". Officially ..

So what about the "proletariat" and the "victory of the world revolution"?
But this was stated in all seriousness, for criticism it was possible to get a lot of problems, and even earlier - for a long time to sit in a concentration camp.
And huge budgets were allocated for these purposes (they fed a bunch of parasites and fraudsters).

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

So what about the "proletariat" and the "victory of the world revolution"?
But this was stated in all seriousness

Blah blah blah.
Pre-war statements about the "proletariat" and "the victory of the world revolution" can in no way justify NATO's aggression against Afghanistan.

[3danimal]

Afghanistan or the Taliban? (Recognized by us as terrorists)
In addition, the Islamist Major Bin Laden was tracked down and eliminated there.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Afghanistan or the Taliban?

It is Afghanistan.

Quote: 3danimal

Recognized by terrorists

Wow ... Are Americans negotiating with terrorists?

[3danimal]

Apparently it is necessary if there is a strong desire to leave Afghanistan.
But they certainly did not invite them to their place.
Unlike our leaders. (Not so long ago).

[3danimal]

... Pre-war statements about the "proletariat" and "victory of the world revolution" can in no way justify NATO's aggression against Afghanistan

But they fully justify the fulfillment of the international duty of the USSR Armed Forces. They themselves lost people there and killed up to a million local people.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

But justify the execution of the international duty of the USSR Armed Forces.

Once again, the USSR is the "Evil Empire".
You will take the trouble to explain why the United States and its allies did the same.

[3danimal]

. While they learned in a crowd to kick the fallen and sick.

Hussein's regime in 1991 was not "sick" (only on the head of the dictator ), the most powerful aircraft and air defense in the region.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Hussein’s regime in 1991 wasn’t “sick” (only on the head of the dictator smile),

Well, yes ... It had to be completely frostbitten in order to believe the Americans. They always betray their own.

[3danimal]

. believe the Americans. They always betray their own.

Who did he believe in annexing Kuwait?

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Who did he believe in annexing Kuwait?

To the Americans.
Damn, the information about it is just the sea.

[3danimal]

To the Americans.
Damn, the information about it is just the sea ..

Do you think that he was given a “patent” for the annexation of Kuwait? Extraordinary statements require very strong evidence

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Do you think that he was given a “patent” for the annexation of Kuwait?

No, he was led to this idea.
And framed.
No wonder Saddam met Glaspi six days before the invasion

[3danimal]

. No, he was led to this idea.
And framed.
No wonder Saddam met Glaspi six days before the invasion

Conspirology. “After that” does not mean “because of this.” And then you can start looking for the culprits of frost or hail, which broke the crops.
And too convenient for the hangman of Saddam, an attempt to partially relieve him of responsibility for the annexation.
By the way, he then concocted a collaborative "government of Kuwait", which immediately asked for entry into Iraq as a province. (It turns out that the United States and the Coalition have interfered with the desires of the people of Kuwait )

[3danimal]

We have a multiple ratio. “Services” are more than 2 times the number of aircraft.
The National Guard is part of the army, to protect the territory from an external enemy.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

We have a multiple ratio. “Services” are more than 2 times the number of aircraft.

Lying.
RF Armed Forces is 1.013 million
Ministry of Internal Affairs 0.89 million, Rosguard 0.34 million, FSB estimated 0.2 million

1.4 can't "exceed 2 by more than 1.013 times.

Oops?

Well, let’s start telling me that if I hadn’t been brainwashed by propaganda, I would immediately agree that 1.4 is more than twice as much as 1.1

[3danimal]

RF Armed Forces is 1.013 million
Ministry of Internal Affairs 0.89 million, Rosguard 0.34 million, FSB estimated 0.2 million

I met other data.
Army and Navy - 0,95 million
Rosguard - 0,35 million. Ministry of Internal Affairs 1 million.
FSIN 0,3 million FSB 0,21 million
As a result, about 2 times more than the military.
The number of Americans is approximately the same.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

I met other data.

They are not true.
However, even if we take these numbers ... 0.95 will not be "half as much" as 1.1

[3danimal]

We have twice as many “services” as the sun
The Americans have about 1: 1.
Somewhere in Germany or Japan, the ratio is already in favor of the sun.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

The National Guard is part of the army, to protect the territory from an external enemy.

Yah???
And why in any riots in the US they are used? Was the external enemy breaking into it?
For example, in Ferguson.
See how many plastic handcuffs the National Guard has .... for all the protesters, sorry, enough external enemies?

[3danimal]

They are involved in natural disasters. Yes, use where there is not enough police and other services.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

They are involved in natural disasters. Yes, use where there is not enough police and other services.

But what about your statement about "part of the army to protect the territory from an external enemy" It turned out to be a lie?

[3danimal]

The National Guard is the so-called organized reserve of the US Armed Forces (an unorganized (individual) reserve consists of people who have sufficient military training, who have recently completed military service and do not need additional training) [1].

The National Guard can be activated in emergency situations by the state governor to carry out various tasks within the country (liquidation of natural disasters, maintaining law and order in case of mass unrest and others), performing in such cases approximately the same functions as internal troops. Also by decision of the President of the United States can be used to support the US Army and Air Force, including outside the United States.

May be involved by the governor or president in exceptional cases.
And yes, all pure lies

[3danimal]

2003. Aggression in its purest form ..

The “trick” after 9/11, plus Saddam’s reluctance to promote commissions, plus Bush’s desire to finish what his father started was to take off Hussein. And again, the balance of forces and means allowed the campaign to be carried out with very little blood among its own (very important).

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

“Wrapping up” after 9/11, plus Saddam’s reluctance to promote commissions, plus Bush’s desire to finish what his father started

Led to lies and aggression

[3danimal]

Iraq now has more opportunities for normal development. There are no sanctions, the Dutch and the British won tenders for production (and the Americans lost), the oil goes to the budget. There is a parliament, there is no hereditary dictatorship (the successors were preparing the more sane of the sons).
I never felt sympathy for Middle Eastern dictators.

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

Iraq now has more opportunities for normal development.

It is intended.
Destroyed economy, more than a million dead, millions of refugees, a bunch of terrorist cells, looted museums, uncontrollable Kurds, stealing oil ... All this is only for the good.

[3danimal]

Costs. The economy was undermined before 2003 by the same sanctions.
Now there is sane self-government at least. And there is no sanction.

[3danimal]

. decided to spit on the opponent guano?

For objectivity, I’ll add that I was also brainwashed and it took me time to put everything in its place (the logic and critical thinking inculcated by my parents helped).

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

For objectivity, I’ll add that I was also brainwashed

Thoughtful thinking about brainwashed does not in any way obviate the need for facts.

[3danimal]

cancel the need for facts ..

He cited an example - an ABC book, Homeland, Lenin.

[3danimal]

. The largest foreign American military force is stationed in the Far East. Japan and South Korea. And this group threatens Russia

If you include the logic, the group in South Korea holds back the possible aggression ... North. (Already happened in the past)
In Japan, they are now more against China. As it is not offensive to any of us, they consider the Chinese more or less equal. (In the same economy, where against the background of the first two RFs it is almost not visible)

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

If you include the logic, the group in South Korea holds back the possible aggression ... North.

This does not mean that they will not be used in the aggression of NATO against Russia

[3danimal]

that they will not be used in NATO aggression against Russia

You forgot to add a “hypothetical”. Of course it doesn’t. (But where are the reliable arguments?)
Some Balts fear that the forces of the Western Military District will be used in the aggression and occupation of their Russian countries. Also hypothetically
PS Do you propose to remove the contingent from South Korea? And how does the northern “brother” take advantage of this, led by the “great leader” in the third generation?

[Lopatov]

Quote: 3danimal

You forgot to add a “hypothetical”.

I forgot to write "preparing"

[3danimal]

I repeat: extraordinary statements require extraordinary evidence.
So far, there are only general phrases in the spirit: why are they so big.
By the way, if we compare the economy and industry, it is still no longer in our favor. They grow precisely to conquer us.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Hermit21

How many approaches to the shell

At least four.
And now they’re cutting the money again.

[Hermit21]

We will not interfere. Let them continue

[eckons]

Quote: Spade

and in the photo the nose, not the feed of the car.

And here in the photo is just feed. So who thinks outside the box here?

[infantryman2020]

OK! Let there be “admirers” against “hurray-patriots”. Conversation in different languages.
Only please communicate, pl., Correctly ". Divan (respectively, inaccessible) fighters" who want to be rude (like, the majority are degenerates, etc.), please write in a personal message.

[Sergey79]

Quote: Spade

study for two years. In the presence of a normal simulator.
In short, not for a conscripted army.

Well, I press the descent ... And I myself think that something is not right ...