Military Review

Katyn debate

76

Many media write that in 2020 marks 80 years since the Katyn tragedy. Such statements immediately indicate the point of view of experts.


If we talk about the 80th anniversary of the tragedy in the Katyn Forest, it turns out that they take 1940 as the starting point, which means the official point of view that all crimes against Polish prisoners of war were committed by the Soviet authorities, the NKVD. However, the official interpretation revealed many flaws that are discussed by historians, criminologists, physicians, and representatives of political and political circles.

The Day TV channel presents an option to discuss this complex topic in the form of debate. On different sides of the ideological and logical “barricades” are Anatoly Wasserman and Evgeny Mikhailov (ex-governor of the Pskov region).

The very discussion of the issue of the Katyn execution is extremely important with historical points of view. If Russia and Poland are really ready to establish a civilized dialogue, then in this situation it is worthwhile to fully and fully understand the question of what happened in the 1940s near Smolensk.

Anatoly Wasserman, starting with the consideration of the Nuremberg trial and the so-called Arens case, says that this particular case is an example of the fact that the NKVD did not try to falsify anything. Frankly, even if we assume that some kind of task of this nature was posed, then by 1946 the NKVD simply would not have time.

The full version of the Wasserman and Mikhailov debates on the Katyn case is presented on the Day TV channel:

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  1. Insurgent
    Insurgent 19 March 2020 09: 13 New
    +12
    What is the debate? Close this topic completely! An extra reason for home-grown liberda and "Western friends" to get excited and yap.
    1. DMB 75
      DMB 75 19 March 2020 09: 25 New
      +13
      I completely agree! The Germans shot the Poles, it has long been proven.
    2. siberalt
      siberalt 19 March 2020 09: 26 New
      +7
      And why debate. Isn’t it easier to collect the surviving investigators of the USSR military prosecutor’s office and question them who gave them the task of falsifying Katyn. If the Supreme Court of the USSR refused to consider this fake, then an independent examination of this "creation" can be carried out. Or weak?
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 19 March 2020 09: 34 New
        +7
        Quote: siberalt
        Or weak?

        "On weak",NOTcomrades covering this political and historical scam cannot be taken.
        Sitting too high.

        Okay, already Katyn, in which “dark spots” were deliberately “blotted”, but they also don’t understand Judas Solzhenitsyn, where everything is sewn with white thread ...

        To some, he is a moral authority.
        1. Nikolai Korovin
          Nikolai Korovin 19 March 2020 10: 22 New
          +5
          Solzhenitsyn is a writer. He does not represent an official point of view. You never know what, say, some science fiction writer writes about galactic wars. And here we are talking about international relations. In Poland, there is a society uniting the relatives of executed officers. There are 800 of them, and they are eager to receive compensation. Too many relatives for the 000 officers shot? Yuri Detochkin, as you know, also had many relatives. And they were often sick.
      2. knn54
        knn54 19 March 2020 09: 54 New
        +10
        I already gave a link to the French ex-foreign minister, journalist and historian.
        If we take into account that he reacted negatively to the USSR, then his calculations showing the SPECIFIC unit of the Nazis and the performers of this action are all the more valuable.
      3. 210ox
        210ox 19 March 2020 10: 37 New
        +9
        Yes, weak! While in Yekaterinburg there is a memorial drunk.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 19 March 2020 11: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: 210ox
          Yes, weak! While in Yekaterinburg there is a memorial drunk.

          That is why there is debate. Under I.V. Stalin for some reason there was no debate, and the same Poles and various democrats knew that the Nazis destroyed the Poles near Katyn and in other camps on the territory of the USSR and on the territory of Poland.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 19 March 2020 12: 24 New
            -4
            the same Poles and different democrats knew that the Nazis destroyed the Poles near Katyn

            On the contrary. From the very beginning, the Poles knew very well that Katyn was the work of the NKVD.
            They had one hundred percent evidence for this.
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 19 March 2020 12: 49 New
              +2
              Quote: Arzt
              On the contrary. From the very beginning, the Poles knew very well that Katyn was the work of the NKVD.
              They had one hundred percent evidence for this.

              Here they are also the tunnels when Catherine the Great ceased the existence of the Commonwealth.
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 19 March 2020 13: 18 New
                -1
                Here they are also the tunnels when Catherine the Great ceased the existence of the Commonwealth.

                Well, the Germans always knew how to quarrel the Slavs.
                1. tihonmarine
                  tihonmarine 19 March 2020 14: 16 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Arzt
                  Well, the Germans always knew how to quarrel the Slavs.

                  And they themselves have lived all their lives so peacefully, even take envy. Only now you forgot, well, at least a small 30-year-old war, which mowed half of Europe. I’m just wondering who quarreled there, but now I come to the thought, again, the guys of Putin, Petrov and Bashirov after the bathhouse, but the moonshine provoked a scuffle.
                  1. Doctor
                    Doctor 19 March 2020 14: 45 New
                    -1
                    And they themselves have lived all their lives so peacefully, even take envy. Only now you forgot, well, at least a small 30-year-old war, which mowed half of Europe.

                    No, I have not forgotten, I’m talking about this. The Teutonic spirit has not disappeared, it has been stretching in them since the battle in the Teutoburg Forest. Since then, they feel like leaders in Europe, it took 2 world wars to put them in their place.
                    Therefore, the rule of Sofia Frederica Augusta of Anhalt-Zerbst does not need to be perceived as a blessing to Russia. This is the governor of Germany, the flag of the Habsburgs is still above the Catherine Palace.
                    1. tihonmarine
                      tihonmarine 19 March 2020 16: 01 New
                      +5
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Therefore, the rule of Sofia Frederica Augusta of Anhalt-Zerbst should not be taken as a blessing for Russia

                      But in Russia she was Empress Catherine the Great, Orthodox, but not some kind of Sonya Frederick.
                      1. Doctor
                        Doctor 19 March 2020 19: 44 New
                        +1
                        But in Russia she was Empress Catherine the Great, Orthodox

                        But nothing that with this "Orthodox" in Russia appeared 80 Masonic lodges and the headquarters of the Order of the Jesuits?
                    2. ccsr
                      ccsr 19 March 2020 18: 37 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Arzt
                      Therefore, the rule of Sofia Frederica Augusta of Anhalt-Zerbst does not need to be perceived as a blessing to Russia.

                      And we never value people by nationality - only by deeds for the good of our Motherland, and we value her as Great, and this tells everything to any honest person in our country.
                      1. Doctor
                        Doctor 19 March 2020 19: 26 New
                        0
                        And we never value people by nationality - only by deeds for the good of our Motherland, and we value it as Great

                        Who you are?
                        Potemkin, Zubov, Ribas, Ponyatovsky and a bunch of Germans, who became oligarchs with her, are of course very grateful to her. Like the then officials (nobles) and businessmen (merchants). No wonder her rule was called the golden age of the Russian nobility.

                        Certificate of appreciation to the nobility:
                        Already existing rights were confirmed.
                        The nobility was freed from the cantonment of military units and teams
                        From corporal punishment
                        The nobility received ownership of the bowels of the earth
                        The right to have their own estate institutions
                        The name of the 1st estate has changed: not “nobility”, but “noble nobility”.
                        It was forbidden to confiscate the estates of the nobility for criminal offenses; the estate was to be transferred to the rightful heirs.
                        Nobles have the exclusive right to land ownership, but the Charter does not say a word about the monopoly right to have serfs.
                        Ukrainian foremen equalized with Russian nobles.
                        The nobleman, who did not have an officer rank, was deprived of suffrage.
                        Elected positions could only nobles, whose income from estates exceeds 100 rubles.

                        Merchants of the 1st and 2nd guilds and eminent citizens were freed from corporal punishment.
                        Representatives of the 3rd generation of eminent citizens were allowed to initiate an application for the appropriation of the nobility.
                        confirmed the right of the top merchants not to pay a poll tax.


                        And with the indigenous population the situation is slightly different.

                        According to the reform of Catherine, the peasants of non-chernozem regions paid dues, and the chernozems worked out corvee. According to the general opinion of historians, the situation of this largest population group in the era of Catherine was the worst in the history of Russia. A number of historians compare the situation of serfs of that era with slaves. According to V. O. Klyuchevsky, the landowners “turned their villages into slave-owning plantations, which are difficult to distinguish from North American plantations before the liberation of blacks”; and J. Blum concludes that "by the end of the XVIII century. the Russian serf was no different from the slave on the plantation. " Nobles, including Catherine II herself, often called serfs “slaves”, which is well known from written sources.


                        If everything was as chocolate as you think, Emelyan Pugachev would not have appeared.
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 19 March 2020 19: 51 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Who you are?

                        A Russian person who loves his story and does not want to be perverted to us.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        If everything was as chocolate as you think, Emelyan Pugachev would not have appeared.

                        I'm not saying that we had a kingdom of heaven, but regarding Pugachev, I think that the uprising during our war with Turkey was a betrayal of the Russian people, because the Crimean Khanate was engaged in the slave trade of our compatriots, and this abscess had to be eliminated. Do you know that a quarter of our budget at that time was spent on the redemption of our compatriots from captivity?
                      3. Doctor
                        Doctor 19 March 2020 21: 46 New
                        -1
                        Do you know that a quarter of our budget at that time was spent on the redemption of our compatriots from captivity?

                        Do not know. But the fact that she failed the economy is a fact. A bunch of Ponte and all in debt.

                        However, due to the lack of money in the treasury, which has become a constant occurrence, from the beginning of the 1780s, there was an increasing issue of bank notes, the volume of which by 1796 reached 156 million rubles, and their value depreciated 1,5 times. In addition, the state borrowed money abroad in the amount of 33 million rubles. and had various unpaid domestic obligations (bills, salaries, etc.) in the amount of 15,5 million rubles. The total amount of government debts amounted to 205 million rubles, the treasury was empty, and budget expenditures significantly exceeded revenues, which Paul I ascertained upon ascending the throne. The issuance of banknotes in the amount exceeding the solemnly established limit of 50 million rubles gave the historian ND Chechulin the basis in his economic study to conclude that there was a “severe economic crisis” in the country (in the second half of the reign of Catherine II) and a “complete collapse of the financial system of the reign of Catherine. " The general conclusion of ND Chechulin was that “the financial and economic side in general is the weakest and darkest side of the reign of Catherine”. External loans of Catherine II and the interest accrued on them were fully repaid only in 1891.
                      4. ccsr
                        ccsr 20 March 2020 11: 42 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Arzt
                        External loans of Catherine II and the interest accrued on them were fully repaid only in 1891.

                        Modern Russia also paid for the tsar’s debts of a later period, so the collision with Catherine the Great was inappropriate. But most importantly, you do not indicate what preferences foreigners received for these loans, and where so many nobles from foreign countries came from in our country. So we were robbed more by giving these loans, and that's why the return was so difficult.
                      5. Doctor
                        Doctor 20 March 2020 11: 57 New
                        0
                        hitting Catherine the Great inappropriate

                        And in my opinion its protection is inappropriate.
                        Move everything to the modern time.
                        The wife of the president of Russia, a German woman working for MI-6, with the help of traitors from the Foreign Intelligence Service, the FSB and the FSO GRU, kills her husband and seizes power in the country.
                        After that, he carries out reforms aimed at increasing the power of the oligarchs and turning most of the population into slaves.
                        A huge number of Germans, Danes and Austrians hold leadership positions in the state.
                        Endless senseless predatory wars, wild corruption and debauchery at court, uprisings of ordinary people are suppressed with utmost cruelty.
                        At the same time, propaganda declares everything that happens to be a golden age.
                        All this is in debt and for loans.
                        Only death on the toilet stops this bacchanalia. laughing
                      6. ccsr
                        ccsr 20 March 2020 18: 33 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Move everything to the modern time.

                        He moved, and Yeltsin remembered with his gang - it was probably even worse, because Catherine increased our lands, and this drunk was ruining the country.
            2. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 20 March 2020 10: 25 New
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              And we never value people by nationality - only by deeds for the good of our Motherland,

              Because Russia is a multinational power all its life, and let the rest of Europe learn from it how to live.
    3. Pravodel
      Pravodel 20 March 2020 06: 52 New
      0
      Exactly, they shouted in chorus “And what for us?”, As they are now shouting about the machinations of the NKVD.
  2. ccsr
    ccsr 19 March 2020 13: 17 New
    +4
    Quote: Arzt
    On the contrary. From the very beginning, the Poles knew very well that Katyn was the work of the NKVD.
    They had one hundred percent evidence for this.

    This is a lie, the Poles did not have any evidence. I can give you dozens of examples in Belarus, including the prison in Brigidki (Brest Fortress), where there were Polish prisoners of war on June 22, 1941, and who were captured by the Germans in the first hours. Moreover, there were not only a few, but hundreds and sometimes thousands of prisoners. At least once, the Polish side raised the question - what happened to these prisoners and what is their fate in Nazi Germany? No one has yet given a documentary answer to what happened to these Poles who were captured by the Germans in the early days of the war. But the fact that they could be shot by the Germans in order to provoke is very possible, and this explains why some victims found letters and newspapers in 1941.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 19 March 2020 14: 06 New
      -4
      This is a lie, the Poles did not have any evidence. I can give you dozens of examples in Belarus, including the prison in Brigidki (Brest Fortress), where there were Polish prisoners of war on June 22, 1941, and who were captured by the Germans in the first hours.

      More than 200 volumes of documents have already been handed over to the Poles. Most of the executed have already been installed by name. And these are those who were held captive with us.
      Here some talk about sleeves and ropes. These are all trifles.
      How did Brigadier General Mechislav Smoravinsky get into the pit? And more than 2000 identified Poles from those that were held captive with us? Skorzeny stole from our camps?
      That is the question.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 19 March 2020 18: 32 New
        +1
        Quote: Arzt
        More than 200 volumes of documents have already been handed over to the Poles.

        Who transmitted - the Germans or Yakovlev? Specify.
        Quote: Arzt
        And more than 2000 identified Poles from those that were held captive with us?

        Some Poles paid for the genocide of the Red Army after the Polish campaign of Tukhachevsky - no one denied this because they were charged with camp atrocities. They were also tried while many of the guards in German concentration camps were later convicted and hanged.
        Quote: Arzt
        That is the question.

        The question is clearly far-fetched, and is being pedaled by those who want to believe Yakovlev’s lies.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 19 March 2020 19: 07 New
          -1
          Who transmitted - the Germans or Yakovlev? Specify.

          Medvedev. The investigation continued.
          https://rg.ru/2010/05/10/delo-katyn.html

          Some Poles paid for the genocide of the Red Army after the Polish campaign of Tukhachevsky

          Yes, I do not condemn the event itself (although the shooting of prisoners of non-comme il faut), the time was like that.
          It’s just stupid to deny the obvious, this harm is more than good.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 19 March 2020 19: 46 New
            0
            Quote: Arzt
            Medvedev. The investigation continued.

            But Medvedev took them from Yakovlev - "everything is clear, the baby is not yours" ...
            Quote: Arzt
            It’s just stupid to deny the obvious, this harm is more than good.

            The trouble is that they imposed on us the opinion that this is obvious without a detailed study of this issue, at least at the level of reviewing all materials of the Katyn case regarding their authenticity.
            1. Doctor
              Doctor 19 March 2020 19: 55 New
              -1
              But Medvedev took them from Yakovlev - "everything is clear, the baby is not yours" ...

              The trouble is that they imposed on us the opinion that this is obvious without a detailed study of this issue, at least at the level of reviewing all materials of the Katyn case regarding their authenticity.

              He didn’t take anything, under Gorbachev they started the process, and a detailed study is still ongoing.

              More precisely, a detailed investigation. The case is being prosecuted.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 19 March 2020 20: 02 New
              +2
              Quote: Arzt
              More precisely, a detailed investigation. The case is being prosecuted.

              I do not want to upset you, but you just can’t imagine how in the USSR they knew how to work with documents that were created for some illegal immigrants with the goal of creating legends for them if they were born and studied in our country. So to cook up simple documents that Yakovlev referred to is easier for them to turnip steaming - believe me.
              Better not talk about the prosecutor’s office - there are no specialists of this level because they were only available in the KGB and the GRU.
            3. Doctor
              Doctor 19 March 2020 20: 42 New
              0
              I do not want to upset you, but you just can’t imagine how in the USSR they knew how to work with documents that were created for some illegal immigrants with the goal of creating legends for them if they were born and studied in our country. So to cook up simple documents that Yakovlev referred to is easier for them to turnip steaming - believe me.
              Better not talk about the prosecutor’s office - there are no specialists of this level because they were only available in the KGB and the GRU.

              You have a misconception about the course of the Katyn investigation and the role of Yakovlev in it. Specialists from the KGB weren’t something they didn’t fake; on the contrary, they were unlocked to the last.

              Key figures are Yuri Zorya and Valentin Falin.
              http://old.russ.ru/ist_sovr/other_lang/20001124.html

              Further, the initiation of criminal case No. 159 GVP of the USSR.
            4. ccsr
              ccsr 20 March 2020 11: 37 New
              +1
              Quote: Arzt
              Specialists from the KGB weren’t something they didn’t fake; on the contrary, they were unlocked to the last.

              How do you know? Our Akhromeev hanged himself - and everyone also says that he did it himself. So do not talk about what you have naive ideas.
            5. Doctor
              Doctor 20 March 2020 11: 47 New
              0
              How do you know?

              The volume of documents. This is not just a few sheets from a special folder. There are volumes. Collected from regional divisions and structures. And they continue to be collected.
              Well, or in your opinion - to fake. laughing
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 19 March 2020 14: 21 New
    +4
    Quote: ccsr
    This is a lie, the Poles did not have any evidence.

    It’s a lie when people lie, but are still embarrassed, and even if they are not embarrassed, then this is “nonsense”. And here is the document, Polish. Photo of the Polish concentration camp for the Red Army. I already exhibited it.
  • Lekz
    Lekz 19 March 2020 22: 58 New
    +1
    I believe that to know and on occasion to pretend that you know are two different things. After all, it’s enough to read Goebbels’s diary of September 29, 1943. Everything is written there. True under the assumption that this diary was not written for the newspaper Pravda.
  • Basil50
    Basil50 19 March 2020 09: 29 New
    +8
    The Poles will still have their own gundet
    It’s a pity that not everyone read the real * expert opinion on exhumation *, the very one that was made by Nazi experts. Very much everything is indicative there, and as to HOW exactly the exhumation was carried out and much more.
    In fact, the Germans prepared a lot of such provocations, but only the Poles from London agreed to help the Nazis.
    There, behind these Poles in London, who themselves appointed the Polish government, there were a lot of things in terms of cooperation with the Nazis. It was not for nothing that the British destroyed both Sikorsky and his lackeys.
    By the way, the Poles lost all * documents * on the charge of the SOVIET UNION of shooting the Poles, because they KNOW that all this is fake.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 March 2020 12: 53 New
      +1
      Quote: Vasily50
      The Poles will still have their own gundet

      Well, from time immemorial they have been rushing, and from time immemorial "Without slaps, like without gingerbread."
  • Malyuta
    Malyuta 19 March 2020 09: 33 New
    +21
    How much can you procrastinate on the same topic?
    The Nuremberg Tribunal recognized the Katyn execution as a crime of Nazi Germany and this must be put to an end.
    But home-grown “historians”, the followers and followers of Goebbels’s case, again and again bring out fake crooked forged under Yakovlev, and the current leaders in the person of both presidents echo them. And now, according to Putin, on the one hand, we are the heirs of the great victors, but on the other, under the "bloody" regime of Stalin
    I will not tire of exposing the Katyn fake by Comrade Ilyukhin ..
    1. sidoroff
      sidoroff 19 March 2020 09: 37 New
      +4
      at the same time, it would be good to lay out the decision of the Nuremberg tribunal in this Katyn case.
      1. Arlen
        Arlen 19 March 2020 10: 03 New
        +15
        Quote: sidoroff
        at the same time, it would be good to lay out the decision of the Nuremberg tribunal in this Katyn case.

        The Katyn execution appears in the indictment of the International Tribunal in Nuremberg, section III "War crimes", subsection C "Killing and ill-treatment of prisoners of war and other military personnel of countries with which Germany was at war, as well as with persons on the high seas" , episode 17: "In September 1941, 11000 Polish officers-prisoners of war were killed in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk"
        http://nurnbergprozes.narod.ru/011/1.htm
        An article on the Military Review website dated March 7, 2011, The Katyn Question, at the Nuremberg Trials or once again about history lessons
        https://topwar.ru/3606-katynskij-vopros-na-nyurnbergskom-processe-ili-eshhyo-raz-ob-urokax-istorii.html
        1. sidoroff
          sidoroff 19 March 2020 10: 18 New
          0
          there is a difference between “indictment” and “sentence”.
          1. 210ox
            210ox 19 March 2020 10: 41 New
            +2
            There is an indictment and there is a verdict on the gallows or in prison. Or was it not so?
            1. sidoroff
              sidoroff 19 March 2020 11: 25 New
              0
              if specifically with Goering, who fought in every possible way from the Katyn execution, alas, but not so.
              1. tihonmarine
                tihonmarine 19 March 2020 12: 01 New
                +2
                Quote: sidoroff
                if specifically with Goering, who fought in every possible way from the Katyn execution, alas, but not so

                But who pleads guilty, or maybe someone at the Nuremberg trials pleaded guilty?
      2. Insurgent
        Insurgent 19 March 2020 10: 22 New
        +2
        Quote: sidoroff
        at the same time, it would be good to lay out the decision of the Nuremberg tribunal in this Katyn case.

        God forgive me, a sinner! Even if the Second Coming happens, and the angels sing, the West, which spit, and for a long time, at his historical decisions (international tribunal), he will not abandon the goal of sweeping Russia and redrawing the world.

        All, forget about the Nuremberg Tribunal, as a warning, it is perceived only by us ...

        This is scary. But the world has become so ...
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 19 March 2020 12: 10 New
          +2
          Quote: Insurgent
          This is scary. But the world has become like that ..

          The world has always been so cruel. And all the time they had an eye on Russia, since the year 1200 the Teutonic Order began to move to the East. And for more than 800 years this “eye” has not stopped looking at the East.
    2. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 12: 15 New
      -2
      Quote: Malyuta
      The Nuremberg Tribunal recognized the Katyn execution as a crime of Nazi Germany and this must be put to an end.


      He didn’t admit - the USSR version crumbled and did not receive confirmation.

      But the protocols of the interrogation of the executors of the execution - are: translated from Polish
      The reverse translation of Tokarev’s interrogation (from translation into Polish).

      The text of the interrogation is taken from the Polish edition of Katyn. Dokumenty zbrodni. Tom 2. Zagłada marzec - czerwiec 1940. Opracowały W. Materski, W. Woszcyński, N. Lebiediewa, N. Pietrosowa. W-wa, 1998. S. 432-470.

      Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, you said that you were talking in Moscow - what about? What instruction did you receive?

      Tokarev: The briefing was like this, in part I already said: “We have gathered you to tell you that a decision has been received by the highest authority to shoot some prisoners of war captured in Poland.”
      When I found out about the scale of the operation, frankly [I was scared], although not from fearful ones, because from border guards. Therefore, I turned to Kobulov: “Bogdan Zakharovich, I am asking: Let me stay at the end of the meeting. I want to talk tete-a-tete "...

      Kobulov replied: “Well, stay.” I stayed. We started the conversation: “I never participated in such operations. When I found out about the scale of this operation, I was even more afraid that I could not do it.” “But we didn’t count on you,” the boss quipped angrily. In fact, he told me about my competence. “We didn’t count on you. We invited you because these operations will take place in your area, therefore without your assistance employees will not manage.

      When I talk about the execution of Polish officers, I think that this is not entirely true. There were much fewer officers than ordinary soldiers. Who was shot? As I later found out - all police officers of whatever rank, starting with the junior ranks, [also shot] all the prison overseers, the entire border service, fire brigade commanders - this is probably the whole contingent. If ordinary soldiers were among the prisoners of war, that is, I mean officers, they were sent to other camps, I don’t know which ones, because since then more than half a century has passed. I make, therefore, the following clarification: they didn’t shoot officers, but representatives of the Polish punitive bodies.

      Yablokov: I see. Does this apply only to your camp?

      Tokarev: Yes, I only say this about the camp, which was on the territory of the Kalinin region.

      In the interrogations provided to the Polish prosecutor's office, there are many testimonies.

      http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/polish/tokarev_ru_pl.html
    3. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 12: 28 New
      -2
      Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, the execution of more than 6 thousand people also means a large number of those who participated in the executions. This is a large mass of people ...

      Tokarev: In total, about 30 people participated in the executions ...

      Yablokov: About 30?

      Tokarev: About 30.

      Yablokov: So we can assume that this commandant group that he [Blokhin] formed ...

      Tokarev: Yes, the commandant group with the commandant in front. Blokhin himself took part ... At the same time I was impressed when they first came into my office: Blokhin, Sinegubov and Krivenko. Well, let's go, let's start, let's go! It was hard to refuse. Let's go to! Addressing so incidentally wanted to make sure myself ...
      I did not enter the cell where the executions took place. There, the technology was developed by Blokhin, yes, and the commandant of our Office, Rubanov. They studded the doors facing the corridor so that no shots could be heard in the cells. Then they sent out the convicts - so we [will talk about them] - along the corridor, turned left, where there was a red corner [15]. In the red corner they checked according to the list: whether the data, personal data converged, if there was any mistake, yes ... and then, when they made sure that this was the person who was to be shot, they immediately handcuffed him and led him to the cell where the shootings took place. The walls of the cell were also lined with sound-absorbing material. That's all.

      From interrogation materials.
      http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/polish/tokarev_ru_pl.html
    4. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 12: 34 New
      -2
      Yablokov: Well, Dmitry Stepanovich, we can assume that about 30 people participated in the executions. However, and of course this number is approximate. This means both the commandant group that I spoke of and the commandant of the Tsukanov internal prison.

      Tokarev: The commandant of the inner prison - I remember him well. He did not take part in executions because he had to know what was happening in his prison at that time. And at that time the arrested were taken out of the prison, transferred to another prison, only those who were supposed to be shot were left there.

      Yablokov: We will return to these matters in more detail in order to understand ...

      Tokarev: Just here I would like it to remain in my opinion. This sight, apparently, was terrifying, since Rubanov had lost his mind, Pavlov - my first deputy - shot himself, Blokhin himself shot himself. This is what it all means.


      Apples; Dmitry Stepanovich, what weapons did you and other NKVD officers have?

      Tokarev: Full-time weapons - TT. True, I had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when Blokhin, Sinegubov and Krivenko arrived, they brought a whole suitcase of pistols. It turned out that these pistols wear out quickly. Therefore, they brought a whole suitcase.

      Yablokov: And which pistols?

      Tokarev: Walter pistols, in my opinion, Walter.

      Yablokov: And there were no others?

      Tokarev: I do not remember. Maybe later there were others.

      Yablokov: And what cartridges were for those pistols?

      Tokarev: Well, Walter is a well-known pistol. Walter 2, and what caliber - I don’t know ... once knew.

      Yablokov: Our cartridges are not suitable for him?

      Tokarev: Our cartridges are not. Only German.

      http://www.katyn-books.ru/archive/polish/tokarev_ru_pl.html
    5. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 12: 38 New
      -2
      1991 March 20, Vladimir Volynsky. - Protocol of interrogation of D. Tokarev

      [Apples]: The military prosecutor, Lieutenant Colonel of Justice Anatoly Yablokov, with the participation of a specialist [in the field of video], an employee of the KGB of the USSR in the Vladimir region Nikolai Zotov, on the basis of Articles 157, 158 and 160 of the Criminal Procedure Code of the RSFSR, interrogated the following person as a witness using a video tape recorder:

      Yablokov: Witness name, first name, patronymic?

      Tokarev: Tokarev Dmitry Stepanovich.
      .
      Yablokov: Please explain who and when of your former employees mentioned participated in work with Polish prisoners of war. Just read ...

      Tokarev: Who shot?

      Yablokov: No, not only shot, but also those who prepared criminal cases and prepared them for the Special Meeting at the NKVD of the USSR. Who and by what vehicles did they take out the executed, by what route and how were the bodies buried?

      Tokarev: So ... I must say that (minute silence), mainly drivers and some prison guards participated in the executions. For example, I know well that my driver Sukharev took an active part, then he shot himself. Bogdanov, also our driver, also took part, but this one only drove the executed. And Sukharev participated in executions and still boasted to me that he deftly worked today. So this is ... prison overseers, the thing is clear, now I don’t remember and I can’t name by surname. Obviously, those you listed participated in the execution of sentences.
      1. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 12: 41 New
        -2
        Yablokov: If I understood correctly, Polish prisoners of war were shot from the Walters. Yes?

        Tokarev: From the Walters. I know this well, since they brought them a whole suitcase.

        Yablokov: And how did these from the commandant’s command, your driver, shoot from those brought?

        Tokarev: Yes, from those brought. This was led by Blokhin himself. He gave pistols, and when the "work" ended - in quotation marks the work - the pistols were selected. Blokhin himself took it.

        Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, why, for example, drivers who did not have this duty were involved in executions?

        Tokarev: How to answer you. I believed that I save one comrade from death. It turned out that when we received a briefing from Kobulov, I asked a question: should I notify the first secretary of the regional party committee about this or not? In no case! There should not be a single living witness [read the answer]. And here is one of the drivers, I do not remember his last name - refused. I was afraid not to give the order to shoot him as a witness. So I called him to myself and I say: “Misha, you are a communist ...” (the following phrase is unclear) ... took sin into his soul, but in order to protect him [from death] as a person.
        1. Dmitry V.
          Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 13: 07 New
          -2
          Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, you know such a procedure for the execution of sentences that they usually read the decision. Then there was a decision by the decision of the Special Meeting. Should they read out the decision of the Special Meeting?

          Tokarev: They didn’t read anything to anyone, they didn’t say anything - handcuffs and let's continue ...

          Yablokov: I see ...

          Tokarev: Usually, a prosecutor is present during executions. You know about it just like me.

          Yablokov: Yes ...

          Tokarev: And here there are no prosecutors, no strangers - nobody. To this - as Kobulov said at that ill-fated meeting - there should be no extraneous witnesses ..., there should not be any living witnesses. Prosecutors are not needed either.


          Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, and what did Soprunenko have to do with the executions of Polish prisoners of war?

          Tokarev: All the materials went through Soprunenko both to us and from us. Everything went to the address of Soprunenko - that's what.

          Yablokov: It’s clear, however, then the meeting set goals for everyone, as I understand it, you too. And what task did Soprunenko set?

          Tokarev: Get ready, get ready. So it was said that according to our data, as Soprunenko reported, so many people should have been shot, 14 with something thousand. Here he said, then dropped, then sent again, the limit number fell on Kalinin.
          1. Dmitry V.
            Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 13: 16 New
            -2
            Yablokov: And you don’t remember if you gave alcohol to those who participated in the shootings?

            Tokarev: Mandatory, even obligatory, but only then, as they returned from the burial place.

            And now I will tell you such a case. When I raised the problem of workers who needed to dig graves, they made fun of me. Naive cranks. We need an excavator. We brought Sinegubov and Blokhin with us. Frankly, this Blokhin brought with him two excavators. I remember the name of one of them - Antonov.

            Yablokov: Antonov, right? Where did this Antonov come from?

            Tokarev: From Moscow, from the KGB [29].

            Yablokov: From the KGB?

            Tokarev: Yes, in the KGB states at Blokhin. So he laughed at me, a simpleton - he says that an excavator is needed.

            Yablokov: Where did they get it, excavator?

            Tokarev: Through Rubanov, then Blokhin tracked down there, in Kalinin. On their own, they brought him to the village of Mednoye at the burial place. This is for Copper ... Now, if there were eyes - maybe I would get there. I am well guided, relatively well, only in my own apartment (Tokarev has very poor eyesight).

            Yablokov: Digging an excavator?

            Tokarev: As an excavator, this Antonov, and I forgot the name of the second, but he, too, came from Blokhin. Also brought from there, from Moscow.

            Yablokov: I see, I see.

            Tokarev: Everyone, after each operation, how many were shot there, fell into one pile of all, into one hole.
            1. Dmitry V.
              Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 13: 28 New
              -2
              Yablokov: Was the car right there at the exit?

              Tokarev: At the exit. So it was supposed to be according to technology ...

              Yablokov: And what kind of car was it - a truck ...

              Tokarev: There were 5-6 of them, 5-6.

              Yablokov: And which, open or indoor?

              Tokarev: Open, but with a tarp. Canvas covered everything.

              Yablokov: And who dragged the corpses to the car?

              Tokarev: What, what?

              Yablokov: The corpse to the car, who dragged?

              Tokarev: All the participants in this operation are mainly drivers and some prison overseers. Of course. They pulled it to the car and loaded it into the body.

              Yablokov: And how were the bodies usually taken out? As a rule, did all the cars boot, or did one boot and drive?

              Tokarev: None. Usually - now, a minute, so that there was no inaccuracy - they went in a group to help each other, if necessary.

              Yablokov: Was there no escort?

              Tokarev: Nothing. Absolutely none. They drove there, and Antonov was in place, and that second one, whose last name I do not remember.

              Yablokov: Excavators, right?

              Tokarev: Excavators were waiting. Also took part - unloaded, there were no movers! Each separately should, each separately should be thrown out. And later, excavators bombarded the ground.

              Yablokov: And how many bodies fit in the car?

              Tokarev: It's hard to say ... Tel 25-30.

              Yablokov: And if there were 5-6 cars and 25-30, then approximately how many? Hundred? Could you bring more?

              Tokarev: Maybe I don’t know anymore.

              Yablokov: And about how much during the night? They only shot at night? Or were they usually shot during the night?

              Tokarev: I told you, for the first time - 300 people in one night.
  • Boratsagdiev
    Boratsagdiev 19 March 2020 10: 15 New
    +2
    You should always talk about this and do not forget!
    And they will always yelp, they did not stop.
    Let's stop - the result will be sad.
    Quote: DMB 75
    I completely agree! The Germans shot the Poles, it has long been proven.

    The Poles, as an example, were themselves in fluff and were not what milked during the war, or after.
    And the good leaders at one time decided to keep silent.
    The result is known.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 19 March 2020 09: 18 New
    +1
    It seems to me that it is not for these "experts" to solve such issues. Talkhouse and nothing more!
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 19 March 2020 09: 28 New
      +4
      She will be a talking room without official status. Who will allow it? The guarantor doesn’t shoot himself in the leg.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 19 March 2020 09: 56 New
        +6
        Quote: siberalt
        She will be a talking room without official status. Who will allow it? The guarantor doesn’t shoot himself in the leg.

        The Katyn affair, along with others, is a link in the whole chain of accusations against the USSR for undermining and destroying it. What is incomprehensible here? That is why our "guarantors", one after another, sprinkle ashes on our heads. And not because the NKVD shot the Poles. What, in fact, was not. And I am 99% sure that the "guarantors" knew about this and they know. But, "Carthage must be destroyed," and for this all means are good.
  • Amateur
    Amateur 19 March 2020 09: 21 New
    +9
    Repeating my comment of March 6, 2020
    Materialized materials:
    The commission did not find direct evidence of the USSR’s guilt, but in December 1987, on the basis of the commission’s work, a note of four was prepared in the Polish sector of the Central Committee on the need to admit the guilt of the Stalinist regime. It was signed by the secretaries of the Central Committee, members of the Politburo A. N. Yakovlev, V. A. Medvedev, Minister of Foreign Affairs E. A. Shevardnadze and Minister of Defense Marshal S. L. Sokolov.

    Fakes made public and handed over to the Poles
    M. S. Gorbachev knew about their existence. B. N. Yeltsin received the documents of the Special Folder personally from Gorbachev during the transfer of power by the latter. 8 months later, on September 24, 1992, package No. 1 was opened containing documents related to Katyn. On October 14, copies of these documents were handed over by the head of the State Archival Service Rudolf Pihoy to the President of Poland, Lech Walesa, and thus made public

    By the way:
    When PSU received very serious evidence that A.N. Yakovlev was an agent of the CIA, Vladimir Alexandrovich reported this to Mikhail Gorbachev ... and thanks to Gorbachev, the verification of these data did not pass. And if it had passed, then confirmation of these data on Yakovlev would have been carried out. His arrest and interrogation would follow ...
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 March 2020 09: 33 New
      +4
      Quote: Amateur
      The commission did not find direct evidence of the USSR’s guilt, but in December 1987, on the basis of the commission’s work, a note of four was prepared in the Polish sector of the Central Committee on the need to admit the guilt of the Stalinist regime. It was signed by the secretaries of the Central Committee, members of the Politburo A. N. Yakovlev, V. A. Medvedev, Minister of Foreign Affairs E. A. Shevardnadze and Minister of Defense Marshal S. L. Sokolov.

      Of course, all this elite consisting of traitors felt above God, and began to decide the fate of the people of the USSR. In one of the agreements of this elite with the states, on the collapse of the USSR, recognition of the execution of Poles near Katyn was included. This is where the "witches' coven" began.
    2. Malyuta
      Malyuta 19 March 2020 09: 36 New
      +12
      Quote: Amateur
      By the way:
      When PSU received very serious evidence that A.N. Yakovlev was an agent of the CIA, Vladimir Alexandrovich reported this to Mikhail Gorbachev ... and thanks to Gorbachev, the verification of these data did not pass. And if it had passed, then confirmation of these data on Yakovlev would have been carried out. His arrest and interrogation would follow ...

      Now we need to institute proceedings regarding the falsifications of Yakovlev and participation in this Gorbachev, one of them is still alive and can answer before the law.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 19 March 2020 09: 24 New
    +3
    The debate is naturally needed, but not just a “sit-round” such as the Galkin show with Guzman, but the debate of world-renowned historians and lawyers, and the provision of relevant archives, both Russian and German, which are stored in Moscow and Moscow Region. And once and for all, put an end to these convenient Poles for blackmailing Russia with a libel. And first you need to shut up your mouths with your liberals and Russophobia, the newly formed "fifth column".
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 19 March 2020 09: 51 New
    +2
    What kind of talk can there be? The President of Russia recognized that the Soviet Union should be responsible for everything.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 19 March 2020 09: 56 New
    0
    Relations with the Poles are already bad, and you can reconsider the Katyn case during this period.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 19 March 2020 12: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: Pavel57
      Relations with the Poles are already bad, and you can reconsider the Katyn case during this period.

      Sorry, so you specify who has a bad relationship with whom. Poland has yes, but Russia does not, it somehow doesn’t really care about Poland’s attitude towards it. Or maybe you remember when Poland’s attitude was good towards Russia, maybe during the Russo-Polish War of the Time of Troubles, when for two years (from autumn 1610 to autumn 1612) the Moscow Kremlin was occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian garrison under the command of Stanislav Zholkevsky . Or maybe when the Russian troops entered Poland during the campaigns of 1768–1772. At the proposal of Austria and Prussia, on February 17, 1772, the First Section of the Commonwealth was implemented.
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 19 March 2020 14: 19 New
        0
        We are not completely indifferent to the attitude of Poland towards us. In particular, the demolition of monuments, or is it all wrong?
  • Old partisan
    Old partisan 19 March 2020 10: 01 New
    +1
    Spit and grind these zhek.
    Something no one in Poland recalls about tens of thousands of Red Army soldiers tortured by these executed. .. And do not apologize to anyone.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 19 March 2020 11: 15 New
    -3
    By decision of the President of the Russian Federation D.A. Medvedev posted electronic images of the originals of archival documents on the "Katyn problem" from "package No. 1"
    http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/spisok.shtml
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 19 March 2020 12: 33 New
      +2
      just familiarizing yourself with these "documents", documentary tails on them should be unmeasured, but there are none.
    2. ccsr
      ccsr 19 March 2020 13: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      By decision of the President of the Russian Federation D.A. Medvedev posted electronic images of the originals of archival documents on the "Katyn problem" from "package No. 1"

      You are apparently too naive if you still don’t know that there were structures in the security services that could fake any document for our illegal immigrants and they could fake fake from the past and his gop company lightly, so that several people could know about it , and then related secrecy non-disclosure subscriptions. And the fact that the scan shows you, it still does not mean anything - then a lot of historical fakes were done to defame the Soviet period of our history, and therefore we need to deal with each document in detail, up to the initial registration records.
      1. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. 20 March 2020 09: 03 New
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        You are apparently too naive if you still don’t know that there were structures in the security services that could fake any document for our illegal immigrants and concoct a fake from the past Yakovlev


        Do you know how the investigation is conducted? Documents are raised - reports, reports, business trips, the circle of suspects is determined from them - then the suspects are interviewed, including the testimony is checked. There are a lot of such volumes, so that 100% to be sure of who shot - this is the work of the NKVD. And all the persons involved were identified, living interrogated.

        Package N1 is part of the documents - the tip of the iceberg.
        He cited above excerpts from Tokarev’s interrogations. Interview with a witness who fully confirmed the version. There are several more witnesses who independently confirmed at the cross-examination that the execution was carried out by the NKVD and it is precisely known by whom, when.
        Interviews of witnesses were carried out on the basis of accountable documents, orders of the NKVD on this operation, business trips, decisions.
        For example:
        note written by hand ...
        It says the following: the head of the Office for Prisoners of War, the captain of state security, Comrade Soprunenko. On the basis of an agreement with you, I am sending material concerning prisoners of war: Shaikovsky R.F., Adamchuk Y.Y., Heindrich E.B., held in Velikolutsk prison for the purpose of appropriate training. Head of the NKVD Office - signature: Tokarev. April 5 [19] 40 g.


        Merkulov’s letter to Tokarev dated April 26 [19] 40

        Soprunenko informed you by letter number 25/1869 of 23 / II [19] 40 on the need to appoint prison camps for prisoners to send these prisoners of war.

        letter from the commandant of the Ostashkov camp of Borisovets, outgoing number 177 from March [19] 40, volume VIII, sheet 39.


        There are several hundred of such documents - in which there are traces of this crime - orders from the secondment of employees to participate, internal orders for the transfer of prisoners of war to certain NKVD prisons where executions were carried out.
        Financial documents on the payment of bonuses in the amount of the monthly salary, awards (with registered weapons for example) - there is a sufficient tail of interdepartmental documents that cannot be faked in such a volume, nor destroyed.

        You simply can’t compare with the fact that you believed in the wrong power.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 20 March 2020 11: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          There are a lot of such volumes, so that 100% to be sure of who shot - this is the work of the NKVD. And all the persons involved were identified, living interrogated.

          This Yakovlevsky lie has long been refuted even by the fact that, firstly, many people were not alive at all, secondly, not all documents were preserved, and thirdly, some of the documents turned out to be fakes, which Ilyukhin reported.
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          He cited above excerpts from Tokarev’s interrogations.

          In Yezhov’s time, they could have beaten out not such “confessionary testimonies”, so you shouldn’t take everything on faith. By the way, why on earth did the KGB officer present with the camera during interrogation by the prosecutor if, according to your version, the NKVD officers killed, i.e. an employee of the Ministry of Internal Affairs should have been present, since it is their department that they are blaming them - but of course you will not pay attention to these details.
          Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
          You simply can’t compare with the fact that you believed in the wrong power.

          Complete nonsense - my faith has nothing to do with false documents. It’s just that you bought it, but I just know how they can prepare fake documents.
  • Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 19 March 2020 12: 33 New
    +1
    This governor count! And in order to put an end to this issue, it is time to exhume all those executed near Katyn, and collect relevant material evidence there. And bullets with shells and much more.
    1. Basil50
      Basil50 19 March 2020 17: 00 New
      0
      The exhumation was carried out, while the commission included foreigners. Academician Burdenko led the commission on the atrocities of the Nazis.
      It is the Poles who demand not to conduct a trial on the shooting of the Poles in Katyn. There the cooperation of the London government of the Poles with the Nazis crawls out, up to the delegation of the representative of the Poles to the Nazi exhumation commission. This is despite the fact that they seem to be fighting with these same Nazis.
      By the way, the foreign * Greek Catholic Orthodox Church *, which merged in the ecstasy of love with the Russian Orthodox Church, is also against the trial in the shooting of the Poles in Katyn.
  • Lekz
    Lekz 19 March 2020 23: 02 New
    +3
    I won’t understand why to chew on this foul topic. Those who can read can read Goebbels' diary for May 8, 1943. "Unfortunately, German equipment was found in the graves in Katyn. Now we should investigate how it got there. It could (?) Be sold by us to the Soviet Union at a time when we were on friendly terms with him. In any case, it is very important that this discovery be kept in strict secrecy. If this comes to the attention of the enemy, we will ruin the entire Katyn affair ... "
    And for September 29, 1943 "Unfortunately, we must abandon Katyn. The Bolsheviks will no doubt soon prove that it was we who shot 12 Polish officers. This business will cause us a whole series of difficulties in the future. The Bolsheviks, of course, will confront it’s our task to find as many mass graves as possible and prove our guilt ... "