Simple but expensive. Submachine gun WG-66 (GDR)


Czechoslovak submachine gun Šcorpion vz. 61


GDR industry produced small arms weapon all major classes, but self-developed submachine guns were not produced until a certain time. In the mid-sixties an attempt was made to create such weapons, which had limited success. The resulting WG-66 submachine gun showed acceptable characteristics, but could not win the competition and lost to the foreign model.

Free niche


The decision to develop a new submachine gun was made by the GDR Ministry of Defense in 1966. At that time, the National People's Army (NNA) was armed with licensed copies of Soviet Kalashnikov assault rifles and Makarov pistols. The command considered that the NNA needed a new weapon that could occupy an intermediate niche between these products.

Earlier, the military managed to get acquainted with the Czechoslovak submachine gun Šcorpion vz. 61 and became interested in him. As a result, the terms of reference for their own sample were made taking into account the characteristics of foreign weapons. The new product was supposed to have similar dimensions and weight, and also show similar firing characteristics.

In June 1966, a competition was launched, which attracted several arms manufacturers. As expected, the Czechoslovak Scorpio participated in the competition. Also tested were the Polish PM-63 RAK. GDR at the competition was to represent the company VEB Geräte- und Werkzeugbau Wiesa (GWB) from the city of Visa (Saxony).

"Small machine gun"


Until the beginning of 1967, GWB was engaged in preliminary research and the search for technical solutions. After that, the design of the finished submachine gun began. At this stage, the weapon received the WG-66 index - by the name of the developer and the year the work began. At first it was designated as a "rapid-fire pistol" (schnellfeuerpistole), and later transferred to the category of "small" machine guns - MPi or Klein-MPi.

Simple but expensive. Submachine gun WG-66 (GDR)

Experienced submachine gun WG-66 of the first version chambered for 7,62x25 mm TT

R&D began with the search for a cartridge capable of providing all the required characteristics. Of the several ammunition in service with the NNA GDR, the Soviet 7,62x25 mm TT was chosen. Its energy and ballistics provided the desired combat qualities, and its small size made it possible to reduce the store and the weapon itself. Finally, the army had large stocks of such cartridges, although their production was stopped in 1959.

The simplicity course


One of the objectives of the project was to reduce the cost and complexity of production. As a result, the design of the WG-66 was based on the simplest and most common ideas, although it could not do without some original suggestions. At the level of basic ideas, it was a submachine gun with automatic equipment based on a free shutter with several fire modes and a folding stock.

WG-66 was assembled on the basis of a receiver with a top cover and a removable trigger guard. A 7,62 mm rifled barrel was rigidly fixed in the box; outside, a slotted arrester was screwed onto it. To reduce the length of the weapon, a L-shaped bolt with a massive front part was used. Behind the shutter was supported by a return spring. Shooting was carried out with an open shutter. Technical rate of fire - 860 rds / min.

The trigger mechanism of the trigger type was placed in its own casing. Its design was based on the USM Kalashnikov assault rifle and had minor differences. In particular, the choice of the fire regime was carried out using the flag on the left side of the weapon, above the pistol grip.

Shops were placed in the receiving shaft in front of the trigger guard. For WG-66, they created two own stores for 10 and 35 rounds. The design of the store provided a protrusion for the slide delay. In the working position, the magazine was held by a rear latch.


The product is disassembled. Visible design of the receiver, shutter and other details

On the front cut of the receiver cover was a front sight. In the central part of the lid there is an open sight in the form of a drum with slots. By turning the drum, a firing range of 50, 100, 150 or 200 m was set.

The submachine gun received a plastic pistol grip pad. A folding metal butt was attached to the rear of the USM casing. If necessary, it was folded by turning to the right and forward, after which the shoulder rest could be used as a front handle.

Product WG-66 with folded butt had a length of 410 mm, full length - 665 mm. Height with magazine - 243 mm. Own mass of weapons did not exceed 2,2 kg; with a magazine for 35 rounds - 2,56 kg.

Product tested


Experienced "quick-fire pistols" WG-66 were sent for testing in November 1967. The first firing ended with mixed results. Technical specifications were acceptable, although there were some difficulties. Much more problems arose with ergonomics. The controls were uncomfortable, the butt staggered and interfered with aimed shooting. The front of the receiver was heated from the barrel and could burn the arrow. Thus, the submachine gun needed to be finalized part of the units.


At that time, the Ministry of Defense determined rough plans for future purchases. NNA required about 50 thousand units of new weapons. It soon became clear that the real number of submachine guns would be greater - other law enforcement agencies became interested in the WG-66 project and the army competition as a whole. They needed about 3-5 thousand "small machines".

WG-66 at the competition


In November 1968, the modified and improved WG-66 was again sent to the landfill. Comparative tests of three submachine guns - one domestic and two overseas - began. Army experts fired at all modes from different ranges and for different targets, which made it possible to determine all the technical and operational characteristics of the weapon.

The findings of the testers were very curious. The East German Klein-MPi WG-66 was inferior in size and weight to its competitors - the Czechoslovak "Scorpion" with an unfolded butt had a length of only 522 mm and even weighed less than 1,5 kg with a store. The Polish PM-63 was slightly larger and heavier than the Scorpion, but it still turned out to be smaller and lighter than the WG-66.

However, in terms of combat characteristics, the WG-66 was superior to other models. The 7,62x25 mm cartridge provided an initial bullet speed of 487 m / s and a muzzle energy of 680 J. For comparison, competitors accelerated bullets to 300-320 m / s with an energy of not more than 310 J. Due to this, WG-66 hit further and more precisely, and also showed greater penetrative effect, especially at considerable distances.

NNA began to study other parameters, and at this stage WG-66 revealed new problems, this time of an economic nature. It turned out that the serial submachine gun of this model will cost at least 410 marks. Imported Šcorpion could be purchased at a price of 290-300 marks apiece.


Fighters NNA GDR with submachine guns PM-63 RAK Polish production

Calculations showed that the preparation and launch of production of WG-66 would be advisable only with a series of at least 300 thousand products by 1975. This was about six times more than the plans of the Ministry of Defense and other structures, which became a new reason for criticism. “Excess” products could be sold to foreign countries, but access to the international market was a separate problem, and its success was not guaranteed.

In addition, in the future there would be problems in the production line. The GWB factory could handle an order for 50 thousand submachine guns - but not 300 thousand. The existing production facilities were already loaded with the release of products of strategic importance: Kalashnikovs and washing machines.

Expensive improvement


Having examined the results of comparative tests, the Ministry of Defense of the GDR conducted additional research work comparing 7,62x25 mm TT and 9x18 mm PM cartridges and determining the most successful and promising. According to the results of this study, a 9x18 mm cartridge was recommended for further use. In this regard, there was a proposal to transfer the WG-66 submachine gun to a new ammunition.

Calculations showed that the WG-66 under the PM cartridge will have acceptable combat characteristics, but it will be 300 g lighter than the basic version. In addition, such a product in the series would cost about 330 brands - against the original 410. However, the proposal for modernization did not receive much support. The customer was already disappointed in the base WG-66, and its new version was not taken seriously.

In early 1970, the prospect of WG-66 was finally closed. The military department ordered to stop all work on this model. To equip the NNA, it was now planned to purchase foreign products. Following the army, such a decision was made by other structures. On this история A curious project ended, and the Polish PM-63 RAK and Czechoslovak Šcorpion vz.61 entered service.
Author:
Photos used:
Ru-weapon-freak.livejournal.com, Wikimedia Commons, Pinterest.com
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  1. Aleksandr72 April 6 2020 18: 11 New
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    For the first time I hear about this submachine gun. I always believed that in the GDR only the M pistol was developed and mass-produced - a PM modification and various modifications of the Kalashnikov assault rifle for 5,45x39 and 7,62x39 cartridges. You can also recall the light sniper rifle chambered for 5,45x39 mm, developed by order of the GDR police and the Stasi. I don’t see any special need and sense in developing my own submachine gun with pretty good Polish PM63 and Czechoslovak Vz.61, which could not be bought very expensive from the Allies under the Warsaw Treaty. Moreover, the submachine gun in the modern, even by the standards of the 60-70s, is a niche gun, unlike an assault rifle / assault rifle. They do not need so much, unlike the main individual weapons of the army, that is, an assault rifle.
    And this is gun M:
    1. Grandfather April 6 2020 18: 52 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr72
      For the first time I hear about this submachine gun.

      similarly. although he closely communicated with the Germans in 81-83, he discovered a new and interesting one for himself.
    2. I didn’t hear it either, but I always thought that the most beautiful and comfortable, it’s still the Czech “scorpion”!
      1. Aleksandr72 April 6 2020 19: 07 New
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        Beautiful - I agree. Effective - possible. No wonder we copied it under the name "Cypress". And as for convenience - here I have some doubts. Somehow I had a chance to hold it in my hands - the wire butt seemed not quite convenient, and the handle, which seemed to be at a right angle and should be uncomfortable, turned out to be quite bumbling on the contrary. It was not possible to shoot from it - the PP was the original under the cartridge 7,65x17, but they just did not exist. But it’s a pity - it was not possible to truly evaluate this weapon.
    3. Grandfather April 6 2020 19: 07 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr72

      And this is gun M:

      almost like mine ..


      for grandchildren a toy ... for good behavior I give it a hold and "populate" the banks in the country ... yes
      1. Avior April 6 2020 20: 56 New
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        it would be necessary to attach a third

        smile
    4. Avior April 6 2020 19: 12 New
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      They do not need so much, unlike the main individual weapons of the army

      self-defense weapons for crews of armored vehicles, pilots and other categories that are not required to conduct a full battle with the enemy
    5. 32363 April 6 2020 19: 27 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr72
      You can also recall a light sniper rifle chambered for 5,45x39 mm, designed by order of the GDR police and the Stasi

      was such, it was called SSG82, there is a scope from it.
    6. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 04: 42 New
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      And how much this software is very similar to the Waltherian MP-K, apparently the groundwork of the times of war was used both there and there, again, the school is felt alone.

  2. Paul Siebert April 6 2020 19: 20 New
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    That’s what it means to be defeated in a world war!
    Germany, which has one of the best weapons schools in the world, is hosting a competition for Polish and Czechoslovak models ...
    And why wouldn’t they adopt the "good old" MP-40?
    Too reminiscent of the Third Reich? laughing
    1. Zeev Zeev April 6 2020 19: 32 New
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      That is what it means to be in the Soviet zone of occupation. In Germany, they completely restored the production of small arms and produced excellent models, demanded not only in their army, but also in the international arms market. And not only small arms, and not only weapons, which is typical.
      1. Grandfather April 6 2020 19: 38 New
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        Quote: Zeev Zeev
        That is what it means to be in the Soviet zone of occupation. In Germany, they completely restored the production of small arms and produced excellent models, demanded not only in their army, but also in the international arms market. And not only small arms, and not only weapons, which is typical.

        under the strict guidance of the American administration ...
        1. Zeev Zeev April 6 2020 20: 18 New
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          The American administration was removed from German cities after the creation of the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949. In addition, it would be more profitable for the Americans to give the Bundeswehr their own samples of equipment (as the USSR did a few letters years later with the NNA).
          1. Lopatov April 6 2020 21: 48 New
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            Quote: Zeev Zeev
            In addition, it would be more profitable for the Americans to give the Bundeswehr their own samples of equipment (as the USSR did a few letters years later with the NNA).

            It’s just that the USSR has already survived the war with Germany. The second in less than half a century. Unlike the Americans, whom the war hooked a little edge.

            Well, the Americans decided that the third time to revive the German military is a good idea. And the USSR turned out to be much more responsible in this regard.
            1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 09: 50 New
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              You can find out how terribly large and aggressive the "German military" was in comparison with the Gdrovites?
      2. Lopatov April 6 2020 21: 35 New
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        Quote: Zeev Zeev
        and produced beautiful pieces that were in demand not only in their army

        You only recently wrote about the "Uzi" of the German tank ...
        1. Zeev Zeev April 6 2020 23: 29 New
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          G3,, MP5, MG3 (yes, I know that this is the same “machingvere”, but nonetheless).
      3. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 04: 45 New
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        Quote: Zeev Zeev
        In Germany, they completely restored the production of small arms and produced excellent samples
        But in the GDR produced excellent examples of peaceful engineering, and chemistry, and optics. And dope! )))
        1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 09: 49 New
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          Well yes. Let's compare the "Trabant" and the BMW "Manta" ...
          1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 09: 57 New
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            Quote: Zeev Zeev
            Well yes. Let's compare the "Trabant" and the BMW "Manta" ...

            Which of these is an example of mechanical engineering, optics or chemistry? And let's compare the “Trabant” with the “Volkswagen-Beetle”, which is much more logical, or with some kind of Israeli passenger car, of the year 85th.
            1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 10: 09 New
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              Here Volkswagen is just a model of mechanical engineering. Great sample. For which you need chemistry and optics.
              NB: In 1985, Israel already discontinued the production of its own civilian car, manufactured since 1961. It was due to the fact that without state support, production was not economically feasible.
              1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 10: 29 New
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                Quote: Zeev Zeev
                In 1985, Israel has already discontinued the production of its own civilian car, produced since 1961.

                So give the data, or is there a photo, with what to compare it?
                Quote: Zeev Zeev
                Here Volkswagen is just a model of mechanical engineering. Great sample. For which you need chemistry and optics.
                Here "Trabant" is just a model, not just engineering, but automotive (there is, you know the difference). A great example, for which you need optics, (or do you think it was possible without glasses and headlights?), And chemistry, and very developed chemistry, if you know what I mean. )))
                1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 13: 34 New
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                  Trabant is a machine about the level of the Israeli "Susita". Subcompact with fiberglass body. To the Volkswagen Beetle him that in terms of reliability, that of convenience, that of prevalence, well, very far.
                  1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 14: 43 New
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                    Quote: Zeev Zeev
                    Trabant is a machine about the level of the Israeli "Susita". Subcompact with fiberglass body.
                    That's how cute, we can’t even compare it with a BMW, especially in terms of cost, I approve Susita as a classmate, I’m still a saner, I won’t argue about the reliability of the Beetle, but comfort is a matter of tuning, but the reliability of Trabant is also not a myth:
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Yes, by the way, I rode a couple of times on the “Trabant”, in the year 2000. Also 18 years after the cessation of release, or even more. And it wasn’t a nostalgia car, but a taxi in Ulan Bator.

                    Prevalence, and what is prevalence? "Beetles" just started in Germany, finished off in Brazil, but neither there nor there plastic bodies mastered.
                    1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 15: 12 New
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                      So when yes, poor in resources, Israel and the GDR did “Susita” and “Trabant”, they released “Beetles”, “Manty”, and “Mercedes” in Germany. By the way, fiberglass bodies were used in many countries, but they were not widely used due to low performance and maintainability.
                      1. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 02: 59 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        in Germany produced "Beetles", and "Manty", and "Mercedes"

                        Well, persuaded, Trabant is still a miracle, although comparing it with a BMW is not even too much, but an outright forgery. But the point is the country's economy.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In Germany, they completely restored the production of small arms and produced excellent samples
                        But in the GDR produced excellent examples of peaceful engineering, and chemistry, and optics.
                        And if for you high-class cars is an indicator of the country's economy, then I have an unpleasant message for you: Israel is an economically backward, agrarian country with a monstrous militarization of industry. And the GDR is a militaristly backward country, with a monstrous bias in the exact machine, machine tool, and shipbuilding industries, with the unhealthy development of the chemical industry, the production of computer technology, the production of precision and high-precision optics, but in general it’s enough, and so it’s clear that these two countries were completely insolvent , in economic terms, because they did not produce almost cars.
                      2. Zeev Zeev April 8 2020 06: 21 New
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                        The points.
                        A. Germany produced dozens of models of cars of various classes. From the cheap Beetle to the elite Maybach. It was not for nothing that I first mentioned Mantoux. This is a sports car, but in an affordable price range for the average resident.
                        B. Israel is a rather economically backward country compared to Germany. But in other sectors, we completely surpassed them.
                      3. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 06: 23 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        But in other sectors, we completely surpassed them.
                        Is this an economically backward country?
                      4. Zeev Zeev April 8 2020 06: 31 New
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                        In some little things like UAVs, military electronics or information technology.
                      5. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 06: 39 New
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                        Well, the GDR was at least as good as the Federal Republic of Germany in precision engineering, machine tool manufacturing, optics, computer manufacturing (Robotron), chemistry and shipbuilding. A larger list is coming out.
                      6. Zeev Zeev April 8 2020 07: 10 New
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                        East Germany was inferior to Germany in everything. In machine tools, including, it was not for nothing that the USSR bought machines from Bonn, and not from Berlin.
                      7. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 09: 48 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        GDR inferior to Germany in everything
                        Especially in non-population, almost four times!
                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        it was not for nothing that the USSR bought machines from Bonn, and not from Berlin.

                        Sorry, but this is called gurgling in a puddle. The USSR bought a lot of machine tools, including through shell companies, however:
                        In the global market, many types of goods manufactured in the GDR are in great demand. machine tools, chemical equipment, marine vessels, optical and printing products industry; a significant part of exports is also light and food industry products. ... ... The largest trading partner of the GDR is the Soviet Union (36% of foreign trade. Turnover).
                        . And the lack of weapons of their own design, with only 16 million people, is not a consequence of the "rule of the Communists" (it is necessary to imagine such stupidity) but a consequence of the refusal to create a developed military industry. (their mod. Kalash and the little East Germans still released).
                      8. Zeev Zeev April 8 2020 10: 09 New
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                        That's interesting, why in the "socialist paradise" the birth rate was much lower, and people from the GDR fled faster than the wind.
                        And by the way, quotes from Soviet books "on the international market" are very funny, but have little to do with reality.
                      9. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 10: 17 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        That's interesting, why in the "socialist paradise" the birth rate was much lower, and people from the GDR fled faster than the wind.
                        Much lower than where? In Turkey? Migrant workers - a term a long time ago appeared. They fled quite quickly, yes, but is there so much as they flood us, and have the fugitives not regretted it? Much has fallen from the USSR, as well as from Russia, but here you better understand me. ))) And if now the paradise of unification has come, then why are the Eastern lands still empty? There are no communists for a long time, be fruitful and multiply, but for some reason not.
                      10. Vladimir_2U April 8 2020 11: 08 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        And by the way, quotes from Soviet books "on the international market" are very funny, but have little to do with reality.
                        Provide data on the "purchase of machine tools in Bonn." And the printing machines in the GDR did a lot and very high quality, and this, if not precision, then exact engineering, is for sure! I personally know this firsthand.
                      11. ccsr April 8 2020 14: 02 New
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                        Quote: Zeev Zeev
                        That's interesting, why in the "socialist paradise" the birth rate was much lower, and people from the GDR fled faster than the wind.

                        You are lying because it was precisely because of the population growth and its usefulness that the GDR far surpassed the FRG, which is why one of the reasons for the unification was precisely Kohl’s desire to get fresh and pure German blood from East Germans into the gene pool. You simply are not in the subject, and you don’t understand what kind of state program for increasing the number of GDR Honneker conducted, and how things were with ordinary citizens. By the way, sport in the German Democratic Republic was developed the best in the world, but it was discredited on purpose, speculating on several studies of the German institute, which deals with the stimulation of certain achievements of athletes. Now in the United States, Norway, France, many Olympians are openly eating stimulants under the brand of medical necessity, but the GDR was accused of much smaller sins, and launched the duck, which is still speculated on.
                      12. 3danimal April 16 2020 04: 51 New
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                        to receive fresh and pure German blood from the East Germans in the gene pool

                        A lot of conspiracy theories.
                        And yet, so it is possible to agree on the "blood and soil" ..
                      13. ccsr April 16 2020 11: 48 New
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                        Quote: 3danimal
                        A lot of conspiracy theories.
                        And yet, so it is possible to agree on the "blood and soil" ..

                        No conspiracy theories - Kohl reported about this when there was debate in the Bundestag about the prospects for German unification.
  3. VladGTN April 14 2020 18: 38 New
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    In the GDR was still Wartburg and IFA. Buses were ....
  4. Zeev Zeev April 15 2020 09: 16 New
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    Should I list what happened in Germany? From Magirus trucks (which the USSR purchased for BAM starting
  • ccsr April 7 2020 12: 35 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And let's compare the “Trabant” with the “Volkswagen-Beetle”, which is much more logical, or with some kind of Israeli passenger car, of the year 85th.

    In fact, it is necessary to compare with the “bug” not “Trabant”, but “Wartburg” - this is a more correct comparison based on the class of cars. By the way, the German freight IFA was the dream of drivers in the USSR - there was no price for it with a trailer at all. I saw them in operation after 25 years when they ceased to produce.
    1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 13: 04 New
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      Quote: ccsr
      In fact, with the "bug" it is necessary to compare not "Trabant", but "Wartburg"
      Well, I don’t know, the two-door as cheap car as possible is about the Trabant and the Beetle.
      Quote: ccsr
      I saw them in operation after 25 years when they ceased to produce.
      Yes, by the way, I rode a couple of times on the “Trabant”, in the year 2000. Also 18 years after the cessation of release, or even more. And it wasn’t a nostalgia car, but a taxi in Ulan Bator.
  • ccsr April 6 2020 20: 10 New
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    Quote: Paul Siebert
    Germany, which has one of the best weapons schools in the world, is hosting a competition for Polish and Czechoslovak models ...

    In vain do you feel about German gunsmiths - their submachine gun was the best among other weapons from the Warsaw Treaty countries, and this can be understood from the text of the article:
    However, in terms of combat characteristics, the WG-66 was superior to other models. The 7,62x25 mm cartridge provided an initial bullet speed of 487 m / s and a muzzle energy of 680 J. For comparison, competitors accelerated bullets to 300-320 m / s with an energy of not more than 310 J. Due to this, WG-66 hit further and more precisely, and also showed greater penetrative effect, especially at considerable distances.

    I think in this case it was not accepted into service just because we were not going to buy this submachine gun for our law enforcement agencies, and the rest of the VD members were not enthusiastic either. The price apparently also played a role - the Germans were highly paid workers, and naturally they had such weapons more expensive.
    Quote: Paul Siebert
    And why wouldn’t they adopt the "good old" MP-40?

    They then already stood in service with the Kalashnikov with a folding butt.
    In general, German gunsmiths were the best in Europe after us - even in the GDR they could make excellent weapons. As far as I understand, this submachine gun was not intended for the army, but for special forces.
    1. Zeev Zeev April 6 2020 20: 57 New
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      The best gunsmiths in Eastern Europe were and remain Czechs. They are the only ones who even as part of the Warsaw Bloc successfully developed, manufactured and sold weapons of their own design. And even to the capitalist countries.
      1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 04: 48 New
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        Quote: Zeev Zeev
        The best gunsmiths in Eastern Europe were and remain Czechs


        They just were allowed to keep the existing production. And the East Germans had nothing to save, but they were allowed to rebuild and develop a peaceful but at the same time high-tech industry.
        1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 09: 54 New
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          Just the Czechs until 1948 were not under the control of the Communists. By the way, the West Germans also had nothing to save, but they recreated and developed the high-tech industry. Both peaceful and military.
          1. Vladimir_2U April 7 2020 10: 23 New
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            Quote: Zeev Zeev
            Just the Czechs until 1948 were not under the control of the Communists. By the way, the West Germans also had nothing to save, but they recreated and developed the high-tech industry. Both peaceful and military.
            It’s just that neither our nor our allies were picking out the Czechs, and ours did not consider the Czechs enemies, and did not impose reparations, but in vain. But eastern Germany, we didn’t plow much, both we and the allies, and they are largely in order to get less material values. With West Germany, everything was much milder.
            1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 13: 24 New
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              West Germany was bombed exactly as much as East. And since 1939, constantly increasing the power of blows.
              1. ccsr April 7 2020 19: 01 New
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                Quote: Zeev Zeev
                West Germany was bombed exactly as much as East. And since 1939, constantly increasing the power of blows.

                Your base lie is refuted by the memoirs of the famous pilot I.I. Lezhov, who was engaged in aerial reconnaissance and knew perfectly well what goals the Allies chose for their bombing:

                1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 19: 18 New
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                  Could you tell us more about the city where the tank factory was shot?
                  1. ccsr April 7 2020 20: 01 New
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                    Quote: Zeev Zeev
                    Could you tell us more about the city where the tank factory was shot?

                    I do not have a scan of other pages, so look for this book yourself - maybe you will find out the name.
                    1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 21: 34 New
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                      I wonder where in Israel can I find this book?
                    2. ccsr April 8 2020 13: 48 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      I wonder where in Israel can I find this book?

                      It’s hard for me to believe that at present it’s impossible to find one or another book if one wants to — the whole question is costs. Here is the cover of this book for you, maybe one of your friends will help you, but I took it for a while, and scanned some pages, but not all.

                      In general, I.I. Lezhov is a unique person - he graduated from the Military Diplomatic Academy and was a military attache in Washington, so his memoirs are worth reading, there are a lot of interesting things from the history of the USSR.
                    3. Zeev Zeev April 15 2020 09: 13 New
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                      Stop. Military diplomatic academy? Sorry, believe him yourself.
                    4. ccsr April 15 2020 12: 32 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Stop. Military diplomatic academy? Sorry, believe him yourself.

                      Firstly, he finished it after the war, and secondly, some of the most honest and smart officers were taken there, and even more so they were checked repeatedly.
                      So why shouldn’t I believe him if Lezhov was described as one of the best intelligence officers in the GRU? Or do you propose an alternative in the form of Rezun, and is there something to believe in him?
                    5. Zeev Zeev April 15 2020 13: 59 New
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                      That is, Lezhov is simply an excellent student of political training with a spy past. Is this authority for you in questions of history? As the parties need at this political moment, such authorities will also lie. And the next day they’ll lie the exact opposite
                    6. ccsr April 15 2020 17: 29 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      That is, Lezhov is simply an excellent student of political training with a spy past.

                      In fact, he is a military officer, Hero of the Soviet Union, so for literacy education, study at least his biography.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Is this your authority on historical issues?

                      I am interested in his recollections as an eyewitness of those days, and the questions of history in the interpretation of modern amateurs cause only a grin.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Just as the parties need this political moment, such authorities will also lie.

                      To get started, study at least when his book came out, before carrying nonsense.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      And the next day they’ll lie the exact opposite

                      This is accepted by your fellow citizens, and people like I.I. Lezhov value their honor with us.
                    7. Zeev Zeev April 15 2020 19: 22 New
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                      A combat officer and a Hero of the Soviet Union (even a twice hero) may well be an excellent student of party meetings and hesitate along with the party line, changing his mind with it. For the environment brought him up like that. And this person will lie, not at all embarrassed. As an example, I propose to recall the statement of Marshal Nikolai Ogarkov that the Korean Boeing 747, shot down in neutral waters, carried out an intelligence mission.
                      Lezhov's book was published in 2005. In full accordance with the political moment.
                    8. ccsr April 16 2020 11: 46 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      As an example, I propose to recall the statement of Marshal Nikolai Ogarkov that the Korean Boeing 747, shot down in neutral waters, carried out an intelligence mission.

                      So he really participated in the intelligence special operation, and his main goal was to make our air defense systems work in that region, and the crew paid for it. The Americans shot down an Iranian civilian plane in the Persian Gulf, which certainly did not fly into the territorial waters of the United States, and why are you silent about this?
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Lezhov's book was published in 2005. In full accordance with the political moment.

                      Those. you agree that you certainly will not attract party influence. So on what basis should I not believe him - can you intelligibly explain?
                    9. Zeev Zeev April 16 2020 13: 20 New
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                      The Korean Boeing did not carry out any intelligence mission. He stupidly lost his way due to a navigation error. Like the Iranian Airbus over the Persian Gulf, like the Libyan Boeing over the Sinai. Only neither the Americans nor the Israelis accused the pilots of participating in a fictitious operation.
                      In 2005, you already had a different party, not much different from the CPSU. By the way, so where is the tank factory that wasn’t bombed at all?
                    10. ccsr April 16 2020 13: 45 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      The Korean Boeing did not carry out any intelligence mission. He stupidly lost his way due to a navigation error.

                      You can believe in these fairy tales yourself, here it will not work.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Like the Iranian Airbus over the Persian Gulf,

                      There were no strategic bombers of this size in Iran, so the Americans could not confuse the passenger plane with the military, and they shot it down specially - this is a fact.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      In 2005, you already had a different party, not much different from the CPSU.

                      I don’t know how you determined this, but the Communist Party of the Russian Federation was not in power then - that’s for sure.
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      By the way, so where is the tank factory that wasn’t bombed at all?

                      I answered you - look for the book yourself, since you are so interested.
                    11. Zeev Zeev April 16 2020 14: 33 New
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                      1. The wreckage of the Boeing was discovered and examined by Soviet divers. What equipment was found in the wreckage and presented as evidence?
                      2. The radar of the American destroyer detected the direction, altitude and speed of the Iranian airliner, which corresponded to the maneuvers to simulate an attack by the Iranian Air Force F-14 fighters. Due to erroneous identification, the liner was shot down.
                      3. I did not say anything about the Communist Party. I'm about a completely different party.
                      4. That is, you do not have an answer to the question that will allow you to determine the accuracy of the written.
                    12. ccsr April 16 2020 15: 00 New
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                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      The wreckage of the Boeing was discovered and examined by Soviet divers. What equipment was found in the wreckage and presented as evidence?

                      Here is what the media write:
                      Later, already in the beginning of the 90s, Soviet scuba divers who raised debris elsewhere would give no less amazing evidence.
                      “We did not see any bodies on either the first or second day ... The plane was filled with various objects, but there were absolutely no signs of bodies. There was no luggage, not even hand luggage. On the other hand, there were many things that you would not expect to see on a passenger plane ... We picked up film reels for computers and recorders».

                      https://www.kp.ru/daily/24352/539985/
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      Due to erroneous identification, the liner was shot down.

                      The marks on the screen from the fighter and passenger aircraft are the same - so what do you understand?
                      Quote: Zeev Zeev
                      That is, you have no answer to the question that will allow you to determine the accuracy of the written.

                      I believe in the honesty of this man, especially since he has an impeccable reputation in military circles. Why did he have to lie and for what, can you say?
          2. 3danimal April 16 2020 11: 09 New
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            . This is accepted by your fellow citizens

            Can you prove it directly? And then gives chauvinism negative
          3. ccsr April 16 2020 11: 55 New
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            Quote: 3danimal
            Can you prove it directly?

            And whose citizens do you mean? If you mean the Israelis, then they lie there at all levels, and not embarrassed - even in court the presidents lie about their harassment. This was recently indirectly confirmed by the son-in-law of a woman who was well known to me, who had never been associated with either the USSR or Russia, and first came to St. Petersburg for the football championship. After that, he himself told her that in Israel they lie about life in Russia, and the country is completely different, and even better than in many European countries.
          4. 3danimal April 16 2020 12: 15 New
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            Therefore, you undertake to assert that in Russia they do not lie on TV? As well as politicians do not use a lie? smile
          5. ccsr April 16 2020 12: 59 New
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            Quote: 3danimal
            Therefore, you undertake to assert that in Russia they do not lie on TV?

            And they lie with us, but much less than abroad - that’s what I know for sure. For example, they say in our country that neo-Nazis in the Baltic countries and Ukraine desecrate the monuments of those who fought against fascism, and in Israel they pretend that they are fighting the Soviet past there and do nothing against this, except for some useless statements.
            Quote: 3danimal
            As well as politicians do not use a lie?

            Politicians are generally unprincipled people, so what you call lies, they call promises. I see no reason to discuss what this or that activist promises more.
          6. 3danimal April 16 2020 13: 33 New
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            For example, they say.

            They say that pension reform will extend the well-being of all. If you start to accumulate facts - you can endlessly roll over. Everybody lies (Dr. House).
            Their, of course, lie a little less smile
            But there is one thing: we are lying on all official media too synchronously.
    2. Zeev Zeev April 16 2020 15: 12 New
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      Komsomol is cool. And Comrade Andropov simply, who did not use such data to justify the actions of the Soviet military ... Well, yes, of course.
      Are the marks of the Ukrainian Boeing and the marks of the cruise missile, which Thor’s air defense missile calculations near Tehran thought to bring down?
      And it was necessary to lie to Comrade Lezhov for exactly the same reason that Molotov stated that the Soviet Air Force did not bomb Helsinki, but dumped bread and sausages to the starving people of Finland.
  • dali 23 June 2020 12: 32 New
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    Quote: Zeev Zeev
    Stop. Military diplomatic academy? Sorry, believe him yourself.

    Is it yours to believe ?! What is called - yours do not respect yourself to believe ...

    Well ... as soon as they sensed that now the face laughing on the table, so right away, "I won’t read, you’re lying fse ..." laughing
  • VladGTN April 14 2020 18: 39 New
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    In Bavaria there was no war at all
  • L-39NG April 25 2020 11: 26 New
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    This is not accurate. As they arrived in the spring of 1945, they remained until perestroika. There were many reasons; it was also necessary to transfer Czech industry under Soviet control. To extract Czech uranium and to export to the union. Finish Russian emigration in the Czech Republic. At the request of the Soviet Union, it was necessary to arm the young state of Israel. It was necessary to carry out work in order to replace the pro-Western politician Benes with the pro-Stalinist alcoholic Gottwald, of course, at the request of the working people.
    1. Zeev Zeev April 25 2020 14: 20 New
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      The enemies of Gottwald were selling weapons to the young state of Israel. Therefore, in 1952 they were convicted of the "Slansky trial" on charges of a "Zionist conspiracy" and most were executed.
  • ccsr April 7 2020 12: 11 New
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    Quote: Zeev Zeev
    The best gunsmiths in Eastern Europe were and remain Czechs.

    I have never heard that they created something serious of weapons, except as a radio intelligence station. Can you name what the Czechs developed and produced and was massively used at least in the Warsaw Treaty?
    Quote: Zeev Zeev
    They are the only ones who even as part of the Warsaw Bloc successfully developed, manufactured and sold weapons of their own design.

    In fact, not only Czechoslovakia, but even Bulgaria and Poland produced something from military equipment and also sold.
    Quote: Zeev Zeev
    And even to the capitalist countries.

    You would say that in NATO. And the capitalist countries included all the other countries into which the USSR and other members of the VD supplied weapons — and there were more than 30 such countries at least.
    1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 13: 44 New
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      BTRs OT-64 and OT-62, self-propelled howitzers "Dana", ChZ-75, ChZ-82, favorite of all terrorist organizations "Scorpion", vz.58, vz.52 ...
      By the way, is Italy a NATO country or not?
      1. ccsr April 7 2020 19: 06 New
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        Quote: Zeev Zeev
        BTRs OT-64 and OT-62, self-propelled howitzers "Dana", ChZ-75, ChZ-82, favorite of all terrorist organizations "Scorpion", vz.58, vz.52 ...

        This is all for domestic needs, which other countries of the ATS were doing by the way. And you were asked to report that they created this at least for the police department except for Tamara and Ramona, and that it was adopted by the armies of these countries.
      2. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 19: 21 New
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        Czech armored personnel carriers were only in the army of Czechoslovakia? Or "Scorpions"?
  • Avior April 6 2020 21: 00 New
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    I think the Czechs were ahead of the arms trade, not the GDR.
    1. ccsr April 7 2020 12: 21 New
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      Quote: Avior
      I think the Czechs were ahead of the arms trade, not the GDR.

      In the GDR, a lot of created dual-use techniques that we used, especially computer technology and optics.
      In the late 1960s. GDR was the most active participant in the EU computer project, since by that time it had already independently started developing IBM-compatible machines based on the R-40.
      In the 1970s, within the framework of the EU computer, the GDR specialized in medium-performance processors, as well as in the design and manufacture of magnetic tape drives (NML) and a number of peripheral devices. The first EU-1040 machine was produced in large quantities and exported to seven countries. In 1976, the EC-2640 central processor was awarded the Quality Mark. Cooperation with the USSR allowed Karl Zeiss Jena to quickly master the production of high-quality magnetic tape drives. By 1976, the GDR had shipped them in the amount of 13 sets, and in 000, the EU-1976 drives received the Quality Mark.

      German computers of the EU were used very widely in our defense ministry, and the cost of such equipment was much higher than any small arms produced in Czechoslovakia.
      1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 13: 49 New
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        Yeah. Copy of IBM?
        1. ccsr April 7 2020 19: 09 New
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          Quote: Zeev Zeev
          Yeah. Copy of IBM?

          And what follows from this? You might think that Israeli technology was not created according to foreign drawings and designs - only the Chinese have surpassed them, and even that is not a fact.
          1. Zeev Zeev April 7 2020 19: 15 New
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            It follows that the countries of the Warsaw bloc very often engaged in unlicensed copying of Western developments and extradition for their developments.
            1. ccsr April 7 2020 19: 56 New
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              Quote: Zeev Zeev
              It follows that the countries of the Warsaw bloc very often engaged in unlicensed copying of Western developments and extradition for their developments.

              I don’t know where you fell from, but any military research always implied studying foreign achievements in order to understand what level we would be at. As for industrial espionage, you just don’t need to pose as a righteous person - this has been going on since ancient times. And the shuttle idea was also planted by our scientists to the Americans in the sixties, and they bought this failed program - so there is nothing new in this.
      2. L-39NG April 25 2020 11: 51 New
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        Among other things, MIG-15, MIG-17 for North Koreans, T-72 around the world. Machine gun BREN (legendary). Of course, I understand such a meagerness, but Siberian Tatras and German Magiruses rebuilt Siberia. And Czech sports planes. Were there few of them in the USSR? from the Z series, Aerotaxi L-200 morava or Let L-410, L-39 we were graciously allowed to produce, you can, of course, forget about Czech shoes that were sent to the USSR in formulations, baby clothes for babies, dairy products. I’ll keep silent about Czech beer, in the old happy times, not everyone was allowed to enjoy it, diesel locomotives, electric generators, turbines for Soviet hydroelectric power stations and we should not forget about the nuclear reactors that we produce ourselves. In Russia, škoda is being screwdriverly assembled under the supervision of Czech experts.
  • 3danimal April 7 2020 06: 01 New
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    In the field of pistols, guns and later sniper rifles, the Union was not doing very well (and this was influenced by the total nationalization of all industries and the absence of a normal civilian arms market).
    Did the PM, focusing on Walter PPK? And later, Stechkin and the like, when you could copy (for starters) the Browning HP - one of the best examples. The problem has not been solved in many ways now. Instead of licensed production and, subsequently, Sig, Glock or CZ replicas under 9x19mm, GS or Yarygin appear.
    In the field of PP, everything has been deaf for a long time. The army is not necessary - this is a sentence.
    For sniper rifles - emphasis on mass and rate of fire (and the factories worked only for the needs of the army, which dictated the development). Accuracy less than 1MOA and bolt reload? What nonsense request
    1. ccsr April 7 2020 12: 24 New
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      Quote: 3danimal
      The problem has not been solved in many ways now.

      We have long since closed this problem with nuclear weapons, ranging from tactical to strategic, inclusive. Why do we also need to create “bicycles” if we have been producing “sports cars” for a long time?
      1. 3danimal April 7 2020 13: 51 New
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        Is this a joke? Are you planning to build Nuka-guns with the MIA?
        In addition, there are conflicts that are resolved by conventional weapons.
        We must not dissuade (hatred-irresponsibility), but think about the problem.
        By the way, there is no analogy at all.
        1. ccsr April 7 2020 19: 13 New
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          Quote: 3danimal
          Is this a joke?

          There is no joke - we have had nuclear weapons in service since the sixties, like nuclear shells for large-caliber artillery.
          Quote: 3danimal
          Are you planning to build Nuka-guns with the MIA?

          The Ministry of Internal Affairs is another song, and they should not be attracted to the armament of the army.
          Quote: 3danimal
          We must not dissuade (hatred-irresponsibility), but think about the problem.

          What modern military problem are you going to solve with small arms? Even in Syria, we refused this, using the videoconferencing system - draw a conclusion.
          1. 3danimal April 7 2020 19: 56 New
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            . Even in Syria, we refused this, using the videoconferencing system - draw a conclusion.

            Following your logic, it was necessary to abandon all nuclear weapons and suicide bombers with backpacks good
            All serious offensives come with the participation of our "mercenaries" or special forces. Asadovtsy motivated to flee a little like bad warriors (but good punishers).
            1. surok1 19 June 2020 06: 49 New
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              Of course you know firsthand about the Asadites? So this is something to compare. Better a Russian soldier on the planet than a soldier in general, maybe not. And the fact that the Syrian small army is simply bled by a five-year conflict does not count for you? Yes, you are a simple dodic sofa.
              1. 3danimal 20 June 2020 12: 51 New
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                And you are trying to cover up weak arguments by switching to personalities.
                I talked with people who went there on a business trip. Summing up the available information, we can conclude that the Arabs are generally weak warriors.
                1. surok1 21 June 2020 19: 49 New
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                  Rabinovich sang? Perhaps there are Arabs and Arabs and Asadites not the worst example? Assad still has enlightened cadres, not fanatics. And the blacks, they say, are even sadder ...
      2. L-39NG April 25 2020 12: 05 New
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        An old joke from the old Cuban war magazine verde olivo. : “These are new atomic grenades. When they are thrown, there will not be anything alive left within a radius of three kilometers. Each will receive two such grenades”
  • Avior April 6 2020 21: 07 New
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    German article on sample comparison

  • beeper April 6 2020 23: 41 New
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    Somewhere this German freak seen already. Probably, in some German reference book or in the Gadäre magazine "Waffen und Militertekhnik", which, among others, was revered during the times of the USSR ?!
    Well, they turned the “Aussie” parts in their sample, while with such a “break” layout it was possible to easily simplify the device by getting rid of a separate receiver cover without compromising the rigidity of the entire structure, and even improving barrel cooling (after all, post-war Germans in their software they repeated the same gross error as the design team of the "engineer" Schmeisser in their Stg- didn’t they really study the experience of their near-term predecessors ??! wassat ).
    Absolutely no design efforts to combat dirt are noticeable on the slide rails. request
    In my head, a paradox arose when I read that firing is from an open shutter, and the trigger trigger trigger (as far as I know, invented and used by John Moses Browning, and then copied by the Czechs, and then all in a row ...) like AKis how to understand such a perversion ?! winked
    It would be ridiculous if this oversimplified (specifically, for the greater profit of manufacturers ??!) Product of “gloomy Teutonic geniuses” on the theme “Schnelfeiperistole” would be adopted and go “into the series” - common sense would triumph!
    The Czech “Scorpion” is still suitable for the “cloak and dagger” workers, but the Polish PM-63 RAK is for the army (the photo of the NNA fighters shooting from it is exemplary good , mb, for the mood, I’ll make a splash screen on it on my tablet ... winked ) - this is something, always wondered how such a “miracle” could be adopted and only exorbitant, senseless “Polish ambition”, the desire to express ourselves in any way, they say, and we “can (or“ can ”)”, serves that an explanation! yes
    1. Michael HORNET April 11 2020 20: 26 New
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      That's right, for sure the article is a mistake. Well, or unprecedented constructive stupidity - why put a trigger like an AK (I'm not sure about the “AK type” - it's too small) and the shutter on the rear sear to it? In appearance, the shutter is ordinary, by the way, with guides in the entire length of the lower part - very similar to the Vityaz / Saigi 9x19 shutter. So it would be necessary to double-check. It is not clear why to design a direct store for 7.62x25, arching a spring and a feeder, but the first MP5 and even earlier MP38-40 had such idiocy. Then they made a normal curved magazine under MP5. In principle, the sample can be brought to mind, although with a free shutter it is not interesting. So the power of the cartridge would allow to make a gas engine
  • 3danimal April 7 2020 06: 14 New
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    An interesting choice in favor of 9x18 in terms of prospects for PP. Acceptable Features? With no penetration, poor flatness, compared to 7,62x25 (and even 9x19).
  • andrewkor April 7 2020 06: 26 New
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    It is hard to believe that a magazine with a TT cartridge will be straight, but not curved, like PPSh and PPS, due to the design of the cartridge itself.
  • Zaits April 7 2020 12: 59 New
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    Quote: pishchak
    In my head, a paradox arose when I read that the firing is from an open shutter, and the trigger trigger trigger (as far as I know, invented and used by John Moses Browning, and then copied by the Czechs, and then all in a row ...) by type AK is how to understand such a perversion ?!


    Most likely, the article is a mistake, and shooting is carried out with a closed shutter. Moreover, the shutter delay is mentioned.
    1. beeper April 7 2020 14: 37 New
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      hi Dear Zaits, the shutter lag is by no means an indicator of firing from a closed shutter! request
      As for the error in the Article that the German software has “shifted ... the shutter is not closed, but open”, this is quite possible, because a rather voluminous box of a complicated USM with many axes is obvious ....
      Unfortunately, the photos above presented by our esteemed colleague aka Avior do not allow me to read the German source on the screen of my tablet, so the intrigue remains. winked
      And, in principle, this PP is not very interesting to me from a design and technological point of view — it’s a kind of “passing” mediocre student “kursak” to “consolidate” the next training cycle, even commonplace in theory, with obvious (on detail photo) by "children's diseases" and the absence of any rational imagination, the desire to intellectually exert themselves, from its authors. request

      It would be much more interesting, relevant and vital (especially for warring crews of airplanes, helicopters, transport workers) to collectively discuss at “VO” the conclusions (if any) of the commission (if it was organized) on the analysis of the ground battle of Major Filipov Roman Nikolaevich February 3, 2018 , forced to blow himself up with a grenade when he "ran out of ammunition" (and right there photos taken by Turkoman fighters who refused shops to the pilot’s APS half-filled with cartridges — this picture still stands before my eyes, like in my ears-kr to our heroic Man: "For the boys!").
      What are these for over two years made in order to provide the airborne crews with reliable accurate compact weapons with sufficient firepower for self-defense after an emergency landing ???
      1. Catfish April 7 2020 18: 45 New
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        Hello buddy Pishchak! hi
        What has been done over the past two years in order to provide VKS crews with reliable, accurate compact weapons with sufficient firepower for self-defense after an emergency landing ???

        Yes, there is already everything, and reliable, and compact, and more than powerful in its class. At least the same "Heather" 9x21, but for some reason they are arming them with the Rosguard, and not with the VKS crews. They are more afraid of seeing the internal enemy than the external. request smile
        1. beeper April 7 2020 23: 34 New
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          drinks I knew that it was my bosom Senior Comrade Konstantin aka the Sea Cat I gave Plysuki from his broad general shoulder friendly and gave me the newsletter, he opened it without hesitation! yes
          The angular overall imperfection (IMHO) "Veresk" is not quite what the VKS pilots need for self-defense, and I really doubt it, however, for their weapons are not very common and powerful cartridges 9x21 mm winked (at least for two reasons;
          1) the absolute impossibility of replenishing ammunition with trophy cartridges on enemy territory, and the shots immediately stand out by sound, do not merge with the common front-line cacophony, although you can try to muffle with PBS, but this is an additional device, weight and dimensions, taking up space from a common small ammunition stock ...
          2) enhanced recoil when firing with such powerful ammunition, which makes it difficult to hit the target a priori with not so much “prize arrows” -pilot pilots of airplanes, helicopters, gliders, and even weapons under these cartridges are more massive and overall, wearable ammunition is smaller than 9x19 ammunition mm Parabellum. Not to mention the notorious scarcity and high cost of 9x21 mm cartridges for regular crew training.)

          Half-full of ammunition stores for the APS of the pilot Nikolai Romanovich Filipov, who died in battle (I shudder when I imagine how this combat guy felt, when his gun repeatedly unexpectedly refused and he had to hurry, under enemy fire, to look for-eliminate the reason for this-picking out warped - a cartridge that shuts down and replaces a half-shot "unfocused" store with a full one ... I somehow in my youth somehow "got into" a similar dream, the same dream, with a TT in my hands and a misfire instead of a shot, so every time I woke up with d with a shout, in a cold sweat and with a beating heart, it’s in a dream, but Nikolay Filipov’s everything was real !!!) they shout that this gun and its stores from “until the thunder strikes, man cross himself! ", alas, a forced palliative decision, which in fact turns out to be worthless and worth the precious lives of our soldiers!

          Stuffed with ammunition and stored for a long time (apparently, not often discharged by inexperienced operators of personal weapons-pilots, professionally "sharpened" for completely different military equipment and weapons ?!) the stores for APS (also in the 1950s of release!) Lost their original elasticity feeder springs and did not provide the necessary reliability in battle.

          Here, following the example of Leskovsky Lefty, it’s just the right time to shout:"Tell the president that the current personal weapon of downed pilots is ugly in a ground battle!"
          Kolobrodite and in my head, activated after February 3, 2018, thoughts on the design of a reliable compact PP for pilots and tankers, which takes up minimal space when folded, and how to achieve failure-free delivery of ammunition even when storing weapons with a fully equipped multi-loaded magazine attached .
          But there is nothing new in these my considerations, as old as the world, any lazy constructor who knows the history of small arms and gave himself the trouble to think a little harder will come to similar technical solutions, very, very simple and widely known!
          This, of course, if one does not "express oneself" at the expense of the state treasury, redesigning the design and thereby dragging out the process of creating a weapon model with specified characteristics, simultaneously using this "quasi-incomprehensible arch-complexity of the structure" to write a personal science-like dissertation ("and there, even though the grass does not grow" - even recklessly, obviously “on a drunk occasion”, adopted by the army, the sample is just an abstruse set of gears, cables and other “typewriter” stuff suitable for an entertaining shooting gallery, but not inspiring confidence even to trained professional officers, not like conscript soldiers ??!)! yes

          All the best to you, my Dear Comrade and Friend Konstantin! Health to you and your loved ones !!!
          With sincere Respect, Your Pischak (also Cat, Farsi winked ) "
          hi
          1. Michael HORNET April 11 2020 20: 13 New
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            Not the fact that there were delays - it could be a regular tactical reload
            If the search team found him, there are no chances, in principle, at least to arm him. The only chance appears ONLY if the pilot remains undetected by a valid patrol or local resident, or he quickly and SILENTLY eliminated them. That is, the pilot needs a silent weapon, it’s better to have a sufficiently long-range weapon - the automatic submachine gun, it’s completely disassembled, it fits in a small package
          2. surok1 19 June 2020 07: 11 New
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            I kind of came up with a new shutter, a simplified modification of the Baryshev shutter. Technologically simplified. Data on an extremely complex mathematical apparatus for its calculation is a myth. He can be calculated by an eighth grader. Baryshevskaya automation is characterized by extremely low returns. And in the case of the implementation of the APS class on a pistol, it allows you to shoot aiming bursts. Now I am ready to vparit design even to the Chinese, to test the performance. Domestic boxes somehow do not respond. If you have acquaintances and interest, then write, I'm also interested.
            1. beeper 19 June 2020 11: 34 New
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              hi Dear aka Surok1, you have clearly come to the wrong address; I have neither the acquaintances you need, nor the opportunities to show "interest".
              Writing in the Ministry of Defense of the USSR and in the "middle school" started as early as college age — they all escaped with a standard reply (but then, during the USSR, they responded to such written requests of citizens with an official letter, without delay, with details and the signature of a specific artist, I don’t know how it is now, but then it was strictly!) that “the design or improvement of small arms is not at all the initiative of initiative loners” and “over all these issues”, they say, “whole collectives of specialized specialists are working successfully” and politely made it clear that I have nothing to stick with my cloth snout in their Kalashny (including literally AKALASHNY smile ) row! request
              So, if you want to "test performance", or to commercialize your idea, then persistently look for opportunities that, of course, do not violate the articles of the Criminal Code of your country.
              And be prepared for the fact that your idea, if it is good enough, insolently "kind people" will try to steal for free (I hope that it’s not a threat to life, because "there is no person, there is no problem with copyright claims and maintaining military , commercial, secrets (especially if the author is a stranger) ") ​​- this also happened under" developed socialism ", and now," under developed and developed capitalism ", in my opinion, it has become" the order of things. "
              I am not an adherent of semi-free shutters, including its version, used by Baryshev. smile
              Often, for their more reliable operation, even with a short pistol cartridge, they have to re-complicate the design of the chamber (Revelli grooves) and the maintenance of such weapons, which are prone to increased burial-pollution of the insides. request
              Legends about the supposedly unique "super-complexity of calculating" their "super-valuable notions" are usually spread by the very authors themselves, worn for life with it, as with a "written bag".
              More or less familiar with mathematics and physics, thinking citizens, even without a basic engineering education, are quite capable of calculating all the necessary parameters of such "impulse systems."
              Moreover, specialized directories and textbooks are now easily accessible on the Web — for example, try typing in a search engine “Designing submachine guns” - a fairly modern book authored by designer-gunsmith Dragunov (one of the sons of the SVD designer) and a group of his comrades.
              Good luck and Reasonable Perseverance in your design endeavors!
              Regards, Your Pishchak.
              hi
              1. surok1 19 June 2020 18: 06 New
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                Yes you are the same as me! I am far from thinking of commercializing. I can’t even name my name. If you want, I’ll drop the picture with the comment for you, rate it. [email protected], my mail. Maybe they can offer Donetsk, they probably have free time and power.
                1. beeper 19 June 2020 18: 43 New
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                  hi Dear aka Surok1, I don’t have the competencies to “evaluate” such inventions; my assessment is useless to you! request
                  My mailbox on Mile.Ru has long been blocked by the Maydan authorities (not only with the "presidential ban", but also with repeated hacking attempts, alas.) ...
                  Everything is in your hands - look for opportunities to make your dream come true, so you don’t regret it later on!
                  And if it seems to you that your design idea is worthwhile, then fight for it, do not give up!
                  With respect.
                  1. surok1 19 June 2020 18: 55 New
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                    It’s a pity, I still have mail on Google and Yandex, one box each. The level of the eighth grader of a comprehensive school for assessment is required, but no more. :-))
  • Michael HORNET April 11 2020 19: 59 New
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    Yes, it turned out ugly and non-functional.
    Free shutter, rear whispered ... 1966 in the yard
    You don’t feel any school, vocational school graduate handicraft