“Russian response to anti-submarine fields”: The War Zone about the new Burak-M buoy

Radio buoys on the P-8A Poseidon

Information about the creation in Russia of the Burak-M buoy, which is responsible for electronic suppression, has attracted the attention of US military-related portals. Among them is the edition of The War Zone, which came to unpleasant for the American fleet conclusions.

Dazzle the enemy

The Burak-M functions by passively moving along the sea surface, however, being able to automatically activate the jamming system attached to it. It blocks the transmission of information from sonar buoys of the enemy, collected by their airborne sensors.

As a rule, in Russian standards for naming weapons, the letter “M” at the end means [...] that there was an earlier Burak design, which may already be in service

- notes the publication, indicating that the appearance of a new product will affect the conduct of anti-submarine warfare by traditional means.

Currently, one of the main techniques for detecting and tracking submarines is the dumping by airplanes and helicopters of large arrays of sonar buoys. The information on the whereabouts of the submarines emanating from them aviation, which can either deal with the “problem” itself or transfer data to other weapons.

However, Russia, concentrated on the ground-based EW forces, decided to bring them to the maritime theater, interfering in the form of "Burak-M" with the normal operation of sonar buoys. Now the submarines equipped with this product will be able to "release" the means of jamming and escape from potential pursuit.

As an example of their specific application, a possible scenario with diesel-electric submarines of the Varshavyanka type is given. Unlike many foreign submarines that can be under water for a long time, they do not have advanced engines, which forces them to regularly rise to the surface. In anticipation of the ascent, “Varshavyanka” can release “Burak-M”, quickly recharge the batteries and again go under water.

P-8A Poseidon

Technology fight

The situation is complicated by the situation with anti-submarine aircraft of the US Navy P-8A Poseidon. Previously [since the Second World War], by default, all machines of this skill were equipped with a magnetic anomaly detector [allows you to detect the displacement of the magnetic moment caused by a large object]. However, now there are no DMAs at the Poseidons, as they were abandoned in favor of an improved speaker system, which just includes sonar buoys.

According to The War Zone, the party that launched a new round of struggle at sea are the Russians, who have stepped up patrolling of submarines in the Atlantic and the Arctic. As a countermeasure, the United States, along with its NATO allies, began to create anti-submarine fields in the oceans. The scope of this activity is reflected in the budget requests of the US Navy. For 2021, the fleet is asking for $ 238 million to buy tens of thousands of sonar buoys, although this is less than the amount allocated for the same purpose for 2020.

It does not seem that the United States will curtail its anti-submarine activities in the near future. [Against this background] the news of Burak-M can only be the beginning of a series of reports that Russia has taken other countermeasures

- concludes The War Zone.

Sonar buoy discharge:

Comments

[rocket757]

Technology fight

So it is ... no matter what sphere of military activity you take, everything is just like in a textbook.

[bessmertniy]

We will consider that the safety of our submarine fleet with these new buoys will seriously increase.

[hydrox]

But the number of hydroacoustics with a roof that has gone over will increase by a factor that will determine our same boat with the same acoustic profile at the same time in several places at a time when it will rest peacefully on Kola: moreover, the number of Russian boats will be multiply to the exercises of the NATO Navy, and then they will also leave together in unison

[Gray brother]

Quote from rudolf

Include this Burak when surfacing under the RDP, it’s like to bring a gun to your temple.

Turning on the "advanced engine" under water when the buoys were thrown over to you means about the same.

[Gray brother]

Stirling for example.
"The A-26 project submarine has a length of 66 meters and a width of 6,75 meters, an autonomy of 45 days and can be under water without access to atmospheric oxygen for 18 days. The displacement is 1925 tons, and the immersion depth is 200 meters. The crew is 26 people. has an air-independent diesel-stirling-electric power system.
Tellingly, no photos from the construction of these boats can be found © Bilde: Saab Kockums. "

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3929116.html

[Gray brother]

Quote from rudolf

On joint exercises, the American PLO lost to this boat.

This does not mean anything, they are not on a diesel engine there all the time. In general, boats on electric motors have always been and remain the most silent, yes.

Quote from rudolf

Stirling is much quieter.

I doubt that "by the order", there are also pistons and cylinders moving.

[For example]

Quote: Gray Brother

Stirling for example.

And what do you think ?:

Since a non-volatile power plant requires a supply of liquid oxygen or hydrogen on board the submarine, and also because of the short range of the underwater path provided by the VNEU, there is a tendency to return in modern designs of nuclear submarines to a traditional diesel-electric circuit using ultra-high lithium polymer batteries.

[Gray brother]

Quote: For example

ultra-high capacity lithium polymer batteries.

Fire hazard, however. Smartphones even burn, and they have only one battery in everything, and there are a lot of them in a large battery and you’ll put it out.
The Japanese did this - brave people.

[For example]

I wonder how people throw out basic information and grab hold of secondary information.

Quote: Gray Brother

Fire hazard, however.

Quote: Gray Brother

Well and yes, these batteries are dangerous.

Quote from rudolf

While in service there is not one such.

In service there are many of these. Namely DEPL. And as everyone knows, the construction of new ones continues.

Grabbing onto the flammability of "lithium" batteries why are you turning a deaf ear to this:

Because non-volatile power plant requires a supply of liquid oxygen or hydrogen on board the submarineas well as because underwater rangeprovided by VNEU, there is a tendency to return in modern designs of nuclear submarines to traditional diesel-electric ....

The Varshavyanka solve their tasks even without "flammable" batteries.

[NEXUS]

Quote from rudolf

While in service there is not one such. This year, perhaps they will accept, it is being completed afloat and has been tested for two years. Only its price because of these LIABs for half a billion has failed. For diesel-electric submarines, this is horse value. Well and yes, these batteries are dangerous.

My friend, I’m becoming more and more affirmed in the idea that we just need modernized Lyres. These dances with VNEU, Stirling and so on have been going on for many years and there is no result. So on Poseidon we managed to shove a nuclear installation, but somehow it doesn’t work in a submarine?
To increase the combat effectiveness and efficiency of the underwater component of our fleets, we need a modernized Lira.

[Fizik M]

Quote: NEXUS

My friend, I’m becoming more and more affirmed in the idea that we just need modernized Lyres.

like
PMSM "Russian Rubis" can be very appropriate

Threat will be if it still surpasses the search performance of 885M (due to the greater low-noise speed)

[Fikys]

Quote from rudolf

Only its price because of these LIABs for half a billion has failed.

Yapi can afford it.

Quote from rudolf

Well and yes, these batteries are dangerous.

The safest of the series. Safer than lead-acid and all lithium-ion variants. Toshiba SCiB, you can google the characteristics.

[Fikys]

Quote from rudolf

The lithium titanate has its advantages, there are also disadvantages.

There are exactly two minuses: 1. Relatively low specific capacity (175Wh / l, 90Wh / kg)
2. High price (about $ 500 per 1 kWh)
Everything else is pluses, many of them are unique, for example, operating temperature up to -30 (both discharge and charge, the capacity decreases by only 25%), the resource is more than 15000 charge / discharge cycles in 3C mode, until the capacity decreases by 20%, complete fire safety.
The lifer from "Liotech" was not close, their characteristics are one of the most sloppy even in their kind of chemistry (LiFePo4), but even one installed on "Lada" or the same "Varshavyanka" could significantly improve their performance. ..

[Alien From]

Not even so much bold as kamikaze ...)))

[Fikys]

Quote: Gray Brother

Fire hazard, however.

No. They use lithium-titanate batteries, these are the most fireproof batteries of all that are mass-produced.

Quote: Gray Brother

The Japanese did this - brave people.

Rather smart. ;)

[lucul]

A masterpiece! Include this Burak when surfacing under the RDP, it’s like to bring a gun to your temple.

Well, what is there incomprehensible? Creates true false goals. For example, there is only one goal on the radar - and here their bang has already 6 goals. And they all maneuver and move away from each other. What will you catch? )))

[lucul]

Is it that simple?

So everything ingenious is simple. the Americans were not without reason puzzled by the fact that they were counting on buoys like that, and here such a bummer ...

Enough to let out a bunch of buoys to confuse the adversary

So I don’t care what to react to - to a submarine or to Burak - it will signal everything.
But if you release new, smart buoys (iboys) that can distinguish fake and original, at $ 1 billion apiece, then this will be it, it will find all of our submarines)))

[Fizik M]

Quote: lucul

For example, there is only one goal on the radar - and here their bang has already 6 goals. And they all maneuver and move away from each other. What will you catch? )))

I disappoint YOU, for SONAR, imitation in the low frequency range adequate to real goals is physically impossible

[Fikys]

Quote: Fizik M

for SONAR, simulation in the low frequency range adequate to real goals is physically impossible

Justify, please. And, in any case, it is quite possible to "fill the air" with a higher-level signal across the entire bandwidth, and then - the issue of receiver selectivity. If it is not enough on existing buoys (and most likely it will be, due to the low demand for this parameter in existing devices), you will have to develop new ones and change the entire fleet of existing ones, and this is billions and time.

[Fizik M]

Quote: Fikys

Justify, please.

low frequency limits
broadband with any decent efficiency is simply not (physically not)
sootv. huge power and large antenna dimensions are required (which is impossible to physically realize in simulators)

[timokhin-aa]

Yes, this complex will not rise in Warsaw

[Avior]

But doesn’t it unmask the use of such a jammer with a submarine?
Just like a beacon- ay, am I here !?

[Avior]

The article gives an example that it needs to be used to charge the batteries, I wrote about it.
Of course, you’re right, there is a certain scope for such a jammer, but obviously not the one mentioned in the article

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

The article gives an example that it needs to be used to charge batteries,

Well, in theory, this is possible if you first raise the RTR mast and check if any radar is "shining", if not, then you can recharge, and if a signal appears, immediately dive.

[Gray brother]

Quote from rudolf

Raising the periscope and the radio intelligence antenna and finding the radar exposure, there is a chance that you have already been discovered.

A fuzzy bearing will get the maximum - it will not work, there dozens of factors work there.

Quote from rudolf

Burun from retractable even from a satellite is visible well

At low speed there is no breaker at all, as such, and no one will give gas to the surface - cavitation will begin, and this is fawn.

[Avior]

Maximum receive fuzzy bearing

why only bearing and why fuzzy?
But the RTR of the boat is really only a bearing, there will be no range, and you will have to dive often, although in fact the radar is working far, the radio horizon can be 400 km ...

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

why only bearing and why fuzzy?

Because the waves. The area of ​​the reflecting surface changes all the time.
If the mast is not raised high (and will be done at first), it will generally cover it with a wave.

[Avior]

there are statistical methods used for these purposes
but just because the mark is fuzzy does not mean that the bearing and range are fuzzy
approximately the point will be determined and surrounded by buoys
what you propose, the Germans did during the war, read Steel Coffins.
didn't help them very much

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

and will be surrounded by buoys

Depends on the situation. This is if there is aviation in the area.
Yes, and buoys are also not a panacea - they hang out on the surface, and under them there may still be a thermal layer, but it may not be of course)))

[Avior]

aviation, it is such a thing, then it is not there, then it is immediately there.
flies fast
if buoys are abandoned, you can forget about recharging, if only you could leave the area
if there is anything left in the batteries ....

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

flies fast

The fuel is not infinite and it flies both "here" and "from here", while using radar continuously by the way.
Burst discharge is determined by bursts.

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

even the Germans did in the war

So, since then, the technique has gone a little ahead.

[Avior]

Gone, you're right.
But she left from all sides.

[Avior]

A boat at periscope depth is visible visually in many cases.
Diesel can be heard well if there is a buoy or ship in the area
A specialized radar is quite capable of detecting retractable devices on the surface before turning off the diesel engine and starting the dive.
And then the problems ....

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

Specialized Radar

Radio intelligence tools were invented in order to detect the radar.

if there is a buoy or ship in the area

Teleport there, completely silent, or what?

[Avior]

the buoy dropped from the plane, especially before the boat leaves the area, is completely silent.
and the RTR station will determine the RTR, it is only possible that at the same time as the radar determines the presence of the boat.
Or visually, the lock will be determined if the radar is not turned on
But diving in the war zone will often have to; the included radars of one type or another will often flicker
And there’s such an unpleasant thing as a search for analysis of diesel exhaust, and for it what you dived doesn’t matter much, the exhaust is still there — if you find traces of the exhaust, it will be strewed with buoys.

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

Or visually determine the lock

Here tankers at intersecting courses do not visually determine each time)))

[Avior]

nobody speaks about each time
but in ordinary polaroid glasses under the water it’s very good to see
and if a lens with such a filter is even better

[timokhin-aa]

In Amers, glasses through which waves from the boat on the surface are visible are regularly included in the equipment of helicopter pilots.

[Avior]

and then the question will be, to respond to all radars or only specialized ones?
After all, charging does not last a couple of hours ...
You can get loaded from the heart.
or not to respond?
And if you still find a review or at least suspect?

[Gray brother]

Quote: Avior

and then the question will be, to respond to all radars or only specialized ones?

For this purpose, the radio portraits are specially compiled, there not only radars are taken into account, but also the means of communication, by their work they determine who it is, how far, what it can and what it needs.

[Avior]

here's the thing- non-specialized radar can detect, or maybe not.
What will knowledge give you that it can detect with a probability of 0,2? or 0,1? Dive or not?
And if a specialized radar station does not work all the time, but turns on in the area, because somewhere beyond the horizon some buoy heard the operation of a diesel engine and suspected a boat in the area and sent the plane to check the square?
and now look at everything that they wrote about the probability of finding a retractable boat and estimate how many different probabilities to detect a submarine in this case, if you only react to the work of those radars that clearly detect the boat and ignore those cases where the boat can be detected, and those detection capabilities that are not related to the radar, like gas analysis, for example.
and if you are sure after that your ideas are great for divers, call the right person
Phone [phone]
https://structure.mil.ru/structure/ministry_of_defence/details.htm?id=9798@egOrganization
Threat Joke. I think you should not call

[Gray brother]

Quote from rudolf

This is at the discretion of the commander.

That is yes. Much depends on luck - this is true for both sides.

[Avior]

one hundred percent
the use of electronics and weapons is almost always probabilistic

[Avior]

this is a case without options, if you want, you don’t want
and it’s clear that both radio operators and acoustics will listen to all ears and eyes at this moment, and respond
but it happens that it’s not completely discharged ....
as I understand it, it was just about this option

first raise the RTR mast and check if any radar is "shining", if not, then it is possible to recharge

[Gray brother]

Quote from rudolf

There are any retractable, in full view.

It shines for any further than the goals determine.

[Undecim]

Specially looked at an article on The Warzone -
Russian Submarines Getting Countermeasures That Jam Sonobuoys Dropped By Enemy Aircraft.
The whole article is based on "what according to the statements of Izvestia" ....
And on the VO website they link to The Warzone.
"A song addressed to a friend goes around ..."

[grandfather_Kostya]

Bombing a "square kilometer" is not very fruitful. To knock down the transmission of the exact coordinates of the boat from the hydroacoustic buoys - as I understand the meaning of using the jammer.

[pafegosoff]

"... $ 238 million to buy tens of thousands of sonar buoys ..."
Suppose two tens of thousands of GAB costs $ 200 million, i.e. 200/000 = $ 000 apiece ...

[Avior]

strange, but the article on VO a couple of days ago somehow passed, so I didn’t see it.
there in detail, including in the discussion

"Burak-M" for the protection of underwater missile carriers

https://topwar.ru/168927-burak-m-dlja-zaschity-podvodnyh-raketonoscev.html

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

We have a bunch of experts here. Is there a sub-melting place in VO? Maybe let them comment? ..

[Avior]

There are sailors
if I’m not mistaken, it’s, for example, rudolff in this thread, or Fizik M in the last thread about Buryak-M two days ago https://topwar.ru/168927-burak-m-dlja-zaschity-podvodnyh-raketonoscev.html

[Nikolaevich I]

But won't such a story work? ... The Americans were tortured to "guess": are there any submarines in a certain "water area" of Rushen? What to do ? Why not throw water buoy in this "water area"? Suddenly radio interference will be detected in these buoys! Then it will become clear that somewhere in this (!) "Water area" there is a "Rushen submarine"! .... Isn't it possible to apply another method against the GABs? ... Leaves the "world ocean" at a certain point .... whether a submarine .... whether a surface vessel "special container". At the right time, this "special container" begins to imitate a submarine. One of the tasks of the "container" is to force the adversary to throw out a significant part of the existing stocks of GABs in the "necessary" area! And if a "underwater-floating screwdriver" were placed in the "special container" ... it would be great! A "screwdriver" would float from one buoy to another ... would stuff them with "screws", thereby causing material damage to the foe ...

[Fizik M]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

When it becomes clear that somewhere in this (!) "water area" there is a "Russian submarine"

moreover, it is "Ash" or "Borey-A"

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Fizik M

moreover, it is "Ash" or "Borey-A"

And what is there to choose! It's like in a story: "2 bricks fall to the bottom ... one asks the other: who do you prefer to meet? ... With an ordinary man in the street, an engineer, a businessman ... a guy, a girl?" The other replies: It doesn't matter "If only the man was good!

[qaz]

It’s not necessary to float right up to the top of the felling to see what's around. For a long time there is TPU on the nuclear submarine - Telescopic Lifting Device.

[Subtext]

Varshavyanka may release Burak-M, recharge quickly accumulators

- Oh well

Actually, information is not enough for buoy. And if it is electronic warfare, then for what situations it is created is not clear. If he buoy, then his power is small. And further, the height of its antenna, the height of the antennas of the RSLA, (for comparison, the height of the antenna of Poseidon) and the formula for this case, such as this (or rather forgotten)

,
where h is the height of the antennas, and doubt will be added: o (
Do not forget that the RSAB is low-frequency and, accordingly, the distance of their setting and, in general, the dimensions of the RSAB field.

[Flurry]

Again about buoys;)) The boat on lithium batteries needs to be done, additional battery modules should be taken out of the module in a durable hull with explosive membranes. Calculations show that even with a slight change in the shape of the light hull, Varshavyanka can be upgraded by autonomy to a modern analogue of the VNEU submarine. In our conditions, this can be done relatively quickly.
And yes, not only lithium is flammable, but also liquid hydrogen, and even iron (suddenly) in the environment of liquid oxygen. And dewar are much inferior in strength to battery cases.

[Anchonsha]

Burak is our good fellow. And the technology war is just beginning with our "exclusive" "partners". May God give our specialists a lot of smart brain convolutions

[Private-K]

Quote from rudolf

".... On the eve of surfacing" Varshavyanka "can release" Burak-M ", quickly recharge the batteries and go under water again."
A masterpiece! Include this Burak when surfacing under the RDP, it’s like to bring a gun to your temple.

It is understood that DEPL, before surfacing, will set up several of these Burakov-Ms in different places. Pr-k will receive several signals ... and how to interpret them to him?

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

In anticipation of the ascent, Varshavyanka can release the Burak-M, quickly recharge the batteries and again go under water.

Some kind of kindergarten.
Acoustic buoy, does not require the ascent of the submarine.
A diesel boat under a snorkel cannot "recharge quickly".

[Igor Borisov_2]

In anticipation of the ascent, Varshavyanka can release the Burak-M, quickly recharge the batteries and again go under water.

Will it be possible to bring him back to the boat?

[Alex Justice]

And if the whale gets confused? Where are the Greens looking?

[stels_07]

The very existence of these products must be kept secret.