Some details of the incident with a Mi-8 combat helicopter in Transbaikalia appeared


Some details of the incident with a combat helicopter in Transbaikalia appeared. Initially, information was received that during a scheduled flight in the residential area of ​​the residential area, the helicopter crew made an unintentional shot, as a result of which one of the houses in Chita received damage.


The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation confirms the information on the implementation of the shot, however, it is noted that the shot was fired when the rotorcraft was on the ground. Added that an unintentional shot was fired from a 23 mm aviation guns. The incident took place on Saturday, March 14th.

We are talking about the Mi-8 helicopter, which was located at the Chita airfield in Cheryomushki. The shot was carried out at the time of maintenance of standard weapons.

The defense department notes that the shot was single. Ammunition flew outside the airport. From the post:

There were no casualties from the incident.

This confirms the information about the damage. The summary states that the military is prepared to pay compensation for the damage caused. His character has not yet been officially announced. Local media write that the ammunition got into the apartment building, knocking down the skin from one of the balconies.

At the moment, a commission is working at the scene of the incident to find out the reasons.
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  1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 18: 31 New
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    We are talking about the Mi-8 helicopter, which was located at the Chita airfield in Cheryomushki. The shot was fired at the time of maintenance of standard weapons
    where did the gun come from as part of the regular weapons of the eights ???
    Not confused with the Mi-24?
    1. svp67 15 March 2020 18: 36 New
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      Quote: Gregory_45
      where did the gun come from as part of the regular weapons of the eights ???


      On a suspension container UPK-23-250, for example
      1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 18: 43 New
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        Quote: svp67
        On a suspension container UPK-23-250

        have you ever seen eights with them? Go ahead yeti see than UPC on Mi-8
        In the error article:
        the cotton, due to which on March 14 employees of the Russian Guard, checked the house on 76 Traktovaya Street, turned out to be a volley of a combat helicopter of the Russian Ministry of Defense. The incident occurred on March 14 when the ammunition of the Mi-35M helicopter was discharged at the Cheryomushki airfield near Chita. During the duty procedure, a malfunction occurred, and one of the shells with a caliber of 23 mm fired
        1. svp67 15 March 2020 18: 48 New
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          Quote: Gregory_45
          have you ever seen eights with them?

          Good, but this container is SPPU-6 GSh-6-23

          Then it looks exactly like the Mi-8MT
          Quote: Gregory_45
          The incident occurred on March 14 when the ammunition of the Mi-35M helicopter was discharged at the Cheryomushki airfield near Chita.

          MinOborony insists on Mi-8
          “At the Cheryomushki airfield in Chita, while servicing a 23-mm aircraft gun of the Mi-8 helicopter, a single unintentional shot occurred on the ground outside the safe zone of the airfield,” the press service said.
          1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 19: 18 New
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            Quote: svp67
            MinOborony insists on Mi-8

            this is not the MoD insisting, but the media are printing. Has anyone seen the original text?
            I cited excerpts from the Chita media, which, as they say, "closer to the point"
            And judging by the logic, then: GSH-23L is a standard, built-in weapon of the Mi-24/35. On the Mi-8/17 - a hanging container. What the hell does an eight-figure board fly with a container? Do they have exercises there?
            1. svp67 15 March 2020 19: 24 New
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              Quote: Gregory_45
              it's not mo insists

              If you consider the press services of the Eastern Military District to be just the media, then yes, and so it is a structural unit of the Headquarters of the Eastern Military District of the Russian Federation
              1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 19: 29 New
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                Quote: svp67
                If you think the press services of the Eastern Military District are just media

                in my opinion, I wrote a very distinct comment. If you read it, of course)

                Did you watch the video briefing with the representatives of the BBO press service, where did they say it, or did you find information from the printed (Internet) media that allegedly quoted the words of those same representatives?
                It’s sometimes ridiculous for us on TV, too, and I don’t say anything about reprinting one media from another. He brought one mistake, hundreds reprinted it.
                1. svp67 15 March 2020 19: 34 New
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                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  He brought one mistake, hundreds reprinted it.

                  Message "Stars", "mouthpiece" of the Russian Defense Ministry come down?
                  The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation checks the fact of a Mi-8 helicopter shot outside the Cheryomushki airfield in Chita. The issue of compensation for damage is being considered.
                  The helicopter fired a single involuntary shot outside the safe zone of the airfield on March 14. The incident occurred while servicing a 23 mm air gun on the ground.
                  The command of the military unit interacts with local authorities on the issue of compensation for damage caused, the press service of the Eastern Military District said.

                  https://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/20203151712-oI1EL.html?
                  1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 19: 37 New
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                    You have not watched the video. At this point, I consider it possible to put an end. Today or tomorrow there will be details of the incident, they will judge.
                    1. svp67 15 March 2020 19: 39 New
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                      Quote: Gregory_45
                      Today or tomorrow will be the details of the incident, they will judge

                      I agree. But I don’t think that the helicopter itself will be shown, dispensed and already dispensed with a video with views of the damaged building and the hustle and bustle around it
                      1. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 21: 50 New
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                        Quote: svp67
                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        Today or tomorrow will be the details of the incident, they will judge

                        I agree. But I don’t think that the helicopter itself will be shown, dispensed and already dispensed with a video with views of the damaged building and the hustle and bustle around it

                        By the way, one more nuance. What is the likelihood that a projectile fired from a hanging container will fall into the house at the level of the third floor (i.e., it will be exceeded)? And what is the likelihood of getting from a movable gun to NPPU-23?
                      2. svp67 15 March 2020 22: 08 New
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                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        What is the likelihood that a projectile fired from a hanging container will fall into the house at the level of the third floor (i.e., it will be exceeded)?

                        Judging by the photo of the Mi-8AMTSh helicopters, when on the ground, their nose was slightly pulled up, which apparently gave such a trajectory to the fired projectile
                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        And what is the likelihood of getting from a movable gun to NPPU-23?

                        Somehow there is no desire to test it in practice there
                      3. rich 15 March 2020 23: 37 New
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                        I studied in the city of Ivanovo from the first to fifth grade. My father served there at the BTA North Airfield. He flew on the IL-76MT. In the 70s there was such a case. An aircraft armament technician discharging a cannon (According to the instructions then it was assumed that the cannon should not be charged for more than three days.) Accidentally gave an ealp from the GSH-23 twin coaxial installation. And this is 100 shells - 80 HE and 20 armor-piercing, 3000 rounds per minute. It was on earth. True, there were no victims, but some airfield structures were blown to smithereens. The scandal was notable. An urgent commission rushing from Moscow hung on people - both guilty and not guilty.
                      4. rich 15 March 2020 23: 44 New
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                        By the way, I recalled the anecdote of Ivanovo BTA pilots of that time: smile
                        Il-76 flies *, suddenly the commander has a voice in the headset:
                        - Commander, entrust 5 degrees to the west.
                        The commander completes. 20 minutes later again:
                        - Commander, entrust 5 degrees to the west.
                        Again dowels. After half an hour again:
                        - Commander, 5 degrees to the west ...
                        The commander cannot stand it:
                        - Navigator, what the hell is that? Who is plotting this way? Can you say 15 degrees right away?
                        The navigator answers:
                        - It's not me, commander, I'm generally silent!
                        -Second, is that you?
                        -No, not me.
                        Here from the rear cockpit shooter (joyfully):
                        - It's me, commander! The sun shines in my eyes!
                      5. svp67 16 March 2020 04: 03 New
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                        Quote: Rich
                        remembered a joke

                        There is a commander of an airship, say, the same Il, who doesn’t touch anyone, suddenly the ensign comes up to him and asks to sign a vacation report, the commander told him:
                        - Why are you turning to me, go to your place and turn to ....
                        - So I am yours ...
                        - ?????? In the sense?
                        - The commander of the stern firing plant, ensign so-and-so ....
                        -A ... then I hear a familiar voice
                    2. svp67 16 March 2020 03: 58 New
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                      Quote: Rich
                      hung lyuley all - and the guilty, and not guilty.

                      And what, the "people" just came ..., you see, they were picked up from the "warm places" in the "Arbat district, but they sent them to the Garden Ring, so that no one else was accustomed to do this, here" rustle "and brought.
  2. basmach 16 March 2020 07: 41 New
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    Something I have not heard about this. GSh-6-23 has a return of 6 tons. And the rate of fire under 9000 (in a linkless version). And it was put only on the Su-24 normally. No six clawner can stand it. And from SPPU-23 they shot at the school, at the training ground.
  • PROXOR 15 March 2020 18: 40 New
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    I wrote a little lower. This is not Mi-8 but Mi-17, which has a cannon hanging container GSH-23.
    1. svp67 15 March 2020 19: 18 New
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      Quote: PROXOR
      I wrote a little lower. This is not Mi-8 but Mi-17, which has a cannon hanging container GSH-23.

      Mi-8AMTSh helicopter (export designation Mi-171Sh)

      These helicopters are just in Chita at the Cheryomushki airfield and are based
    2. vik669 16 March 2020 18: 01 New
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      And did not win, but lost. And not the Volga, but 3 rubles.
  • smile 15 March 2020 23: 09 New
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    Grigory_45
    Hello.
    Theoretically, guns of this caliber can be suspended on piers of the eight.
    But I read, on another resource, that the MI-35 gun shot ...
    But this is not important ...
    Another thing is important - technicians should be engaged in servicing the weapons of vehicles under conditions in which along the axis of the direction of the weapon there is an embankment that excludes the departure of shells from the guns, except for the embankment, the same applies to landing vehicles with nurses that did not come out during firing - they are also planted so that the bunks that worked from the shake stuck in the mound ...
    In this case, a specific jamb of a very specific person, who will receive a hat. Rather - people - well, the whole host of guys couldn’t, for the ento is the responsibility of the people, not to notice such a blatant canoe ....
    The TB rule on this topic, it seems to me, appeared even earlier. than me.:)))))
    1. Grigory_45 16 March 2020 19: 40 New
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      Quote: smile
      technicians should be engaged in servicing the weapons of cars in conditions in which along the axis of the direction of the weapon there is an embankment that excludes the departure of shells from the guns, except for the embankment, the same applies to the landing of vehicles with nurses that did not come out during firing - they are also planted so that the bunks that worked from the shake stuck in the mound ...

      thanks) I wanted to hear something like that
  • vik669 16 March 2020 19: 31 New
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    And then Ostap suffered.
    Mi-35 helicopter accidentally shot at an apartment building in Chita
    http://in24.org/incidents/38962?utm_source=warfiles.ru
  • Sergey39 15 March 2020 18: 31 New
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    It's good that the cannon, and not a missile with SGB.
  • gcn
    gcn 15 March 2020 18: 33 New
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    And where does 23mm and Mi-8, however?
    1. PROXOR 15 March 2020 18: 39 New
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      The author apparently confused the Mi-8 and Mi-17. The Mi-17 has a hanging cannon container GSH-23.
  • Olya Tsako 15 March 2020 18: 36 New
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    There is nothing to entrust migrant workers, airfield maintenance of aircraft.
    Closed all vocational schools. There are no longer Russian tractor drivers, plumbers, electricians, turners, casters, machine tool builders, etc.
    Medvedkin's 20 years as an epidemic of plague in Russia.
    1. bober1982 15 March 2020 18: 42 New
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      Quote: Olya Tsako
      aerodrome maintenance of aviation equipment.

      Olya, it is necessary to distinguish between the aerodrome service and the armament group, these are different services.
      Quote: Olya Tsako
      Closed all vocational schools

      It is not clear what you mean.
      1. Piramidon 15 March 2020 18: 54 New
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        What can I say about some sort of migrant workers, if on a park day our ARMENIAN ENGINEER fired a queue of 5 shells from the feed station. It’s good that there was nothing besides the forest behind the tail. The installation was not discharged, but he did not check.
        1. bober1982 15 March 2020 18: 58 New
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          Quote: Piramidon
          What to say there

          Everything is correct, in the sense that - what they just didn’t throw, and didn’t let in, and did not shoot.
          1. AUL
            AUL 15 March 2020 20: 08 New
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            Quote: bober1982
            Everything is correct, in the sense that - what they just didn’t throw, and didn’t let in, and did not shoot.

            An unloaded gun fires once a year! The human factor, however ...
        2. Eug
          Eug 15 March 2020 19: 03 New
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          It seems that when working with the gun, the board was not de-energized.
      2. Doliva63 16 March 2020 19: 07 New
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        Quote: bober1982
        Quote: Olya Tsako
        aerodrome maintenance of aviation equipment.

        Olya, it is necessary to distinguish between the aerodrome service and the armament group, these are different services.
        Quote: Olya Tsako
        Closed all vocational schools

        It is not clear what you mean.

        Apparently, she wanted to say about the ShMAS laughing
    2. Vol4ara 15 March 2020 19: 09 New
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      Quote: Olya Tsako
      There is nothing to entrust migrant workers, airfield maintenance of aircraft.
      Closed all vocational schools. There are no longer Russian tractor drivers, plumbers, electricians, turners, casters, machine tool builders, etc.
      Medvedkin's 20 years as an epidemic of plague in Russia.

      Not in vocational schools, but in education reform. I have vocational schools in my hometown, but stupid people come out of there. And the reason is that if you drive out all the idiots from there, you won’t get any bonuses, now it’s more important not knowledge, but the number of graduates. My wife worked in a technical school as an agrarian teacher, the same thing, provide the necessary number of graduates, do not care about knowledge. As a result, the building of the technical school was sold to shopkeepers, what was inside was transferred to the building of children’s houses, where the children of housekeepers xs moved, which led to the fact that those few teachers who had knowledge left there, the area of ​​children’s houses is an order of magnitude smaller than the area of ​​the building of the technical school Nobody wanted to sit on each other’s heads. If that Mr. Chaplygin. Previously, I could quite rightly fly a slap in the algebra, teachers were afraid and respected, now you can wipe your feet on the teacher, he’s still powerless
  • Grigory_45 15 March 2020 18: 38 New
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    The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation confirms the information on the implementation of the shot, however, it is noted that the shot was fired when the rotorcraft was on the ground.
    The shot was carried out at the time of maintenance of standard weapons.

    can anyone explain how this could even happen? Surely, during the manipulation of weapons there is a strict regulation. Yes, and the "internal" rules
    For example, in our factory, from time immemorial, a shot crashed while checking the mechanism of pulling the tape of one of the caps. It turned out that ammunition was somehow cluttered among the discs. Since then, all checks are carried out only on max. gun elevation angle - if there is a shot, the risk of getting injured is minimal
    1. svp67 15 March 2020 18: 43 New
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      Quote: Gregory_45
      can anyone explain how this could even happen?

      Due to an elementary violation of security requirements ... Someone clearly forgot that they were all written in blood and decided to add it there ...
      1. Olya Tsako 15 March 2020 19: 10 New
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        Well, these airborne automatic guns weren’t loaded with a high-explosive fragmentation shell, but probably with a training disc.
    2. Piramidon 15 March 2020 19: 02 New
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      Quote: Gregory_45
      Surely, during the manipulation of weapons there is a strict regulation.

      If there are rules, regulations, laws ... then there will always be someone who violates them. There would be no violators - there would be no accidents, which even here are regularly written about. I am sure that they will deal with the culprits.
      1. svp67 15 March 2020 19: 13 New
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        Quote: Piramidon
        I am sure that they will deal with the culprits.

        The main thing is not with the switchman
      2. Grigory_45 15 March 2020 21: 46 New
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        Quote: Piramidon
        If there are rules, regulations, laws ... then there will always be someone who violates them. There would be no violators - there would be no accidents, which even here are regularly written about. I am sure that they will sort out the culprits

        it is clear that most likely there has been a violation of the regulations. I asked a little about something else. To work with weapons - are there special guns for this place, a certain orientation of the gun (so that the projectile flies into an uninhabited area), it is imperative to disconnect such and such circuits, etc. ?
        1. Piramidon 15 March 2020 23: 53 New
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          Quote: Gregory_45
          For working with weapons - are there special places for this

          I’m not an armed man and I haven’t been dealing with materiel for 26 years already, but according to the instructions and special sites EMNIP works are carried out with failed weapons (all kinds of failures, jamming, etc.). On the network you can find a lot of shots (from the same Syria), where it can be seen that the suspension of the power supply and loading of weapons is carried out at the usual standard aircraft parking. Maybe the armament specialists will correct me. hi
      3. not main 15 March 2020 23: 16 New
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        Quote: Piramidon
        Quote: Gregory_45
        Surely, during the manipulation of weapons there is a strict regulation.

        If there are rules, regulations, laws ... then there will always be someone who violates them. There would be no violators - there would be no accidents, which even here are regularly written about. I am sure that they will deal with the culprits.

        Not necessary! I recall the case in 1991. Mi-24V machine gun YakB-12,7 attempt of the guard to turn the barrels and get two rounds of 12,7 led to an unintended turn! As a result, a residential building at a distance of about 10 km was damaged. It is good that this machine gun was not reliable. And fired "only" five rounds.
    3. Doliva63 16 March 2020 19: 14 New
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      Quote: Gregory_45
      The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation confirms the information on the implementation of the shot, however, it is noted that the shot was fired when the rotorcraft was on the ground.
      The shot was carried out at the time of maintenance of standard weapons.

      can anyone explain how this could even happen? Surely, during the manipulation of weapons there is a strict regulation. Yes, and the "internal" rules
      For example, in our factory, from time immemorial, a shot crashed while checking the mechanism of pulling the tape of one of the caps. It turned out that ammunition was somehow cluttered among the discs. Since then, all checks are carried out only on max. gun elevation angle - if there is a shot, the risk of getting injured is minimal

      And where does the projectile fly away, I wonder? A friend (translator, if that) somehow got drunk from the PM "on the crows" in the forest. In the hospital, a bullet from his pistol was removed from the hand of a soldier who was walking somewhere not very far. They almost planted it. Not scary?
      And many have already said about the "regulations" for working with weapons in the Air Force.
  • lopvlad 15 March 2020 18: 43 New
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    The shot was carried out at the time of maintenance of standard weapons.


    the impression is that their kids in the cab "steer" put during service.
    1. Piramidon 15 March 2020 22: 48 New
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      Quote: lopvlad
      the impression is that their kids in the cab "steer" put during service.

      How many involuntary shots and explosions have been described here. Something I don’t remember, that at least one “kid” involved was identified. For some reason, it’s only great boobies.
      1. vik669 16 March 2020 19: 09 New
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        Yes, and grandfathers because of their high professionalism are so strange - mom don’t cry, and not only in aviation!
    2. Doliva63 16 March 2020 19: 20 New
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      Quote: lopvlad
      The shot was carried out at the time of maintenance of standard weapons.


      the impression is that their kids in the cab "steer" put during service.

      Yeah, and they specially delighted, purely for the children to amuse. Well, what can I say request
  • Terenin 15 March 2020 18: 43 New
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    The main thing is without injuries.
    And so:
    - material for checking the incident report;
    - refusal to institute criminal proceedings;
    - payment of property damage
    Ministry of Defense, in civil proceedings;
    - recourse (reverse) lawsuit of the Ministry of Defense (at the discretion of the command) to the specific culprit;
    - material to the archive.
  • Cowbra 15 March 2020 18: 47 New
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    No way underestimate the power of human stupidity. Well, IMHO, TB rules are violated - what, they stupidly turned around in the field and let's check - it smells or not?
  • Olya Tsako 15 March 2020 18: 52 New
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    On New Year's Eve, I hit the overlay of a neighboring balcony overdue with Chinese firecrackers.
    23mm - not serious for a combat attack helicopter.
    1. bober1982 15 March 2020 18: 55 New
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      Quote: Olya Tsako
      23mm - not serious for a combat attack helicopter.

      Here I agree with you, all this is frivolous, to make noise out of nothing.
      1. Olya Tsako 15 March 2020 19: 06 New
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        No one was killed or injured. The house itself is only slightly damaged, and it is even somehow humiliating. March 14, when the ammunition of the Mi-35M helicopter is discharged at the Cheryomushki airfield near Chita. During the on-duty procedure, a malfunction occurred, and one of the shells with a caliber of 23 mm fired. He flew almost a kilometer and a half and crashed into the wall of a residential building. At first, local residents did not even understand what had happened and complained to the Ministry of Emergencies about the “loud bang”. Arriving units of the Russian Guard, the Ministry of Emergency Situations and a demining group combed the neighborhood, examined the house and found damage on the third floor level, where the shell hit. The blast damaged the glazing, the floor and the balcony.
  • Prisoner 15 March 2020 19: 38 New
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    Damn butter! Aviation without a mess is an appetizer without vodka. If the air does not work, you will surely find a way to drag on the ground.
    1. vik669 16 March 2020 18: 17 New
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      So they shoot and they will shoot on the ground, too - the MIG-27 in Martynovka was dragged into the TEH from a squadron with a non-discharged GSh-6-30 well, the ensign gun and checked the volley 6 shells flew near the front landing gear no fragments of the landing gear the whole nose of the plane was damaged by grandfather he got his feet too - well, grandfather, the plane was severely reprimanded after a year of repair and quietly decommissioned, and no one discussed anything on the Internet, and now how many sofas are there so many opinions about which it’s not important to crow!
      1. Prisoner 16 March 2020 18: 23 New
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        Well, it's like a Chekhov rifle. If there is a gun on the scene, then sooner or later it will fire. winked And in the troops of shooting and exploding goodness in bulk. Yes, and enough idiots. hi
    2. Doliva63 16 March 2020 19: 32 New
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      Quote: Captive
      Damn butter! Aviation without a mess is an appetizer without vodka. If the air does not work, you will surely find a way to drag on the ground.

      On the one hand, yes, when the Almighty handed out discipline, aviation was in flight; on the other hand, try to prepare, organize and conduct a flight shift without iron discipline. That is, the mess in the Air Force is at the right level, but here is someone specific jamb, which, of course, will be sorted out. It happened to us that both the SPPU-23 fired and the rockets flew out of the block, but each time - into a special embankment, which is found at all military airfields.
  • faterdom 15 March 2020 19: 43 New
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    Local media write that the ammunition got into the apartment building, knocking down the skin from one of the balconies.

    On New Year’s Eve, I also received a formidable letter from the housing and communal services office that I, such a bastard, "illegally glazed the balcony and must clean it in 7 days ..." I imagined how I crawled on a snowy roof with icicles on a new day’s night a prescription from the housing office itself ... And now I think: it’s good that they don’t have a helicopter!
  • iouris 15 March 2020 20: 36 New
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    It is still necessary to be able to make only one shot from GS-23.
    1. Stas-90 15 March 2020 21: 02 New
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      And who counted them there?
      One hit a residential building - they said one shot.
      Or maybe there a dozen more went into the sky.
      1. vik669 16 March 2020 18: 19 New
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        It is better to keep quiet and seem like a fool than to open your mouth and finally dispel doubts.
    2. Finn 15 March 2020 21: 51 New
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      Yes, weird. Maybe it's frozen.
    3. Piramidon 15 March 2020 21: 55 New
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      Quote: iouris
      It is still necessary to be able to make only one shot from GS-23.

      Perhaps the last and only cartridge remained.
      1. iouris 15 March 2020 22: 26 New
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        Yeah. For yourself. Once on the pre-flight launched two S-5 from UB-16. Powder gases were slightly cut by the technique of the aircraft, which filled the MiG-23M with air. Accidentally killed no one. The reason is the failure of flights to the training ground: the gunmen removed the unit, and the missiles were removed - they hurried home. After some time on the pre-flight, they were not convinced of the absence of missiles and immediately began testing the launch circuits with the remote control. Something similar happened this time.
        1. Linxs 15 March 2020 22: 27 New
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          and the rockets were NOT removed
        2. g1washntwn 16 March 2020 14: 18 New
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          Well, McCain got a lot more fun ... laughing
  • Thrifty 16 March 2020 05: 00 New
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    Why is my comment deleted? What could violate the rules of the site?
    1. Piramidon 16 March 2020 06: 49 New
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      Quote: Thrifty
      Why is my comment deleted? What could violate the rules of the site?

      This question does not need to be asked not by site users, but by moderators. They have their own concepts. Write them a letter.
  • Romanenko 16 March 2020 08: 50 New
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    The main thing has not killed anyone, it’s already good.
    From time to time, guns and guns “shoot” themselves, what can you do - no one can cancel the human factor.
    In our 80s, with me, ZUShka banged at my friend in Berdyansk, it’s good to miss.
    Now the main thing is to determine the cause of the shot and try to provide for the future a set of measures to prevent replay.
    And to arrange gossip on this topic is probably useless, all the more, I repeat, the shell did not do any special things.
  • Tuzik 17 March 2020 09: 30 New
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    West 2017, worse than one shell 23 mm