Kulikovo battle in images and paintings

157
Kulikovo battle in images and paintings
"Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo field." Kiprensky Orest Adamovich, 1805 (1782-1836)

And, bowing his head to the ground,
A friend tells me: "Cut your sword,
In order to fight with the Tatar,
For a holy cause, lie dead! ”
A. Block. On the Kulikovo field


Art and story. After the release of material devoted to triptych by P. Korin, readers of "VO" expressed their wishes for the continuation of the cycle, and specific topics for new articles were proposed. Among them is the "Don Cycle" by I. Glazunov. But I looked at the paintings of this cycle, and thought that it would probably be more interesting to arrange a kind of vernissage of paintings dedicated to the Battle of Kulikovo, that is, to consider not one or two, but many paintings and compare what is what and why their authors more just bowed. Here, however, the question of selection arose, since there are many paintings. But, in my opinion, the principle of the image is important. Someone copied Roerich's manner, someone Vasnetsov's, someone hit the epic, and someone - realism. In any case, we will be interested not in the idea embedded in these paintings, but in the image weapons and armor. After all, we still have a battle genre, and not something else ... So, let's start from the XNUMXth century.



Here is a picture of O. A. Kiprensky "Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo field." What can I say? It was such a time! Everything was written expertly, but I just want to laugh a little at what is happening on the canvas. Prince: “Oh Lord, you are my God, how I got! My torment is unbearable! ” A woman at his feet (by the way, where is the woman from?): "Lord, save and save!" A man in a torn shirt: "This is the prince, ulcerative velmi!". Warrior in a green cloak: “Is it really a prince, I am old with my eyes, I can’t make out ...” Warrior in a helmet: “I’m prince bad! Water to him, water! ”

However, he painted all this on ... a task. Everything was agreed! This Academy of Arts, as an examination test, invited its graduates to paint a picture on the theme "Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo Field." And it was clearly stipulated how exactly the prince should be portrayed:

“Imagine Grand Duke Dmitry Donskoy when, after defeating Mamaia, the remaining Princes of Russia and other warriors find him in a grove with the last almost gasp, blood flowed from his wounds: but the good news of the complete defeat of the Tatars revives the dying grand duke.”

And here is what was said in the Academy’s response to this picture:

“The head of the grand duke is full of expression. And the joy of the victory, he is animated, bought with gratitude to the Almighty, vividly depicted in his languid gaze, directed to heaven. This work is the first experience of the works of this young artist, giving great hope for himself. "

And in the end, on September 1, 1805, Kiprensky was awarded the Great Gold Medal for this painting.

Well, the lack of national color did not bother the author or the examiners, and, therefore, that’s not the right armor, not the weapon, but the picture of the master. And it, of course, corresponds to the era and the then vision of historical realities.

Subsequently, a number of artists followed his example and received appropriate recognition, but time passed, and people began to pay attention to history. It got to the point that Valentin Serov, for example, who was ordered the "Battle ...", did not write it and even returned the money issued for it. And all because he did not agree with customers in their views.


Then came the Soviet time, socialist realism, and with it came its own classic. Here, for example, this is the picture of Avilov Mikhail Ivanovich (1882-1954) “Duel on the Kulikovo Field”, written by him in 1943, which is known to everyone from school.

Personally, I would change only the drawing on the shield of a Tatar warrior on it. Here it is shown painted, but in reality they were made of rods wrapped with threads, connecting one ring to another. It turned out a very beautiful pattern, which was additionally decorated with plaques and tassels. But, in principle, this is not even a remark. It was just that at that time there were no reconstructions of the Tatar shields. And so is dynamism, and expression, and epicness - everything is present, not an inch inferior to historical authenticity. Actually, with this canvas of his, Avilov raised the bar so high that anyone who undertakes to write on the same topic can only be advised one thing: to look at this canvas for a long, long time and at the same time think, can I at least get closer to this. And if the inner voice makes you doubt your abilities - do not take it!


The middle part of the triptych of Yu. Raksha

By 1980, on the occasion of the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kulikovo, Yu. M. Raksha painted the triptych "Kulikovo Field". We are especially interested in its middle part. And it seems to be on her "everything is like that." But why did the author draw to the warrior on the left, and with a shield on his right hand, the archer's reed, which he holds in his left hand? Even if he is left-handed, it is impossible to cut an enemy with a reed with one hand, and with two, with a shield, it is inconvenient. It's the little things like this that ruin the whole experience.


The artist Yu. P. Pantyukhin also created a triptych, with Alexander Nevsky placed on the left, Dmitry Donsky in the center, and Minin and Pozharsky on the right

What did you like? The way the author wrote out the helmets. Finally, they are what they should be. It is not clear why the elbow pads, what he depicted on the left and right, is an overlap on the brush. And here's what's interesting - where did the author get it from? Are there such elbow pads in the fonts of the Armory Board or the State Historical Museum? Moreover, if something like this exists, it cannot in any way relate to the era of Alexander Nevsky. There was no such thing then either with us or with the Western knights. However, we have already talked about Nevsky ... Two more details are striking here: the chest octagonal plates of both princes. It can be seen that the artist really liked them very much. But it wasn't there then! Dmitry was separated from the mirror armor by at least 200 years. And if it wasn’t, then why draw it? And it's funny to read the descriptions of all these paintings, made by art historians. Marked and "multidirectional views", and confidence, showing in the poses, and the people in the background, supporting their leader. But why don't you, dear, see other elementary things that the artist painted "as he sees", although he should have tried to draw "as it was." So, we have historical fantasies and today at least a dime a dozen.

For example, I am preparing this material, browsing the Web, and there: "Three thousand six hundred heavily armed Genoese infantrymen represented a formidable force." Where exactly did 3600 Genoese infantrymen and 400 more crossbowmen come from on the Kulikovo field, when we don’t even know for sure the number of troops on the battlefield? Mommy hired? Where? In a cafe, in Sudak? Yes, there were not so many soldiers in all of Genoa. The magistrates - and records about this have been preserved, recruited dozens of soldiers, and they were glad about that. But the main thing is not even this, but where is the source, where did the author get these numbers from: 3600 spearmen and 400 crossbowmen? I remember that in the publications of 1980 the number of 1000 Genoese was called - and even then it was questioned. And then ... they multiplied by budding?


But I can’t even explain this picture of Ilya Glazunov ... I don’t understand what this can be connected with at all. And most importantly - why? Neither the poses nor the detailing make any sense. The horses are galloping in different directions, Glazunov's Peresvet, instead of chopping the spear like Avil's Peresvet, holds it like a reed ... I don't understand how. And the Tatar clung to him with both hands - a grip that had probably not been used for at least five hundred years! Yes, and the horse under him is somehow “perverted” - croup and neck in one direction, head in the other ... Picturesque hooliganism is, not art!


And here is another of his paintings in the recognizable Roerich style. But look at the half-naked Tatar on the right. Why did the artist put a samurai helmet from the Nambokucho era on his head? Where did this warrior get it from? After all, the Mongols invaded Japan a century earlier ... That is, in 1380 Mamai’s warriors could not have such helmets, since in 1274 and 1281, when one of the ancestors of this ... hick could capture such a helmet as a trophy, kabuto precisely with such kuwagata simply did not exist. By God, it's disgusting to even comment on such blunders

It should be noted that in recent years, artists have become more demanding of themselves in relation to the depiction of historical realities.


Here, for example, Dmitry Anatolyevich Belyukin’s painting (b.1962) Dmitry Donskoy, 2015. Armor is a forged army, although it would be nice to show the plate mounts on chain mail. One can argue about the top of the hilt of the sword, but ... so in general - why not?


Prince Dmitry also liked me in the image of Kirillov Sergey Alekseevich (b. 1960) “Dimitri Donskoy”, 2005

Moreover, such a mace is quite possible for him. And the plate armor is shown very realistically. Even the plate greaves on the legs… Well, it could be like that. That's just some kind of shield he has fantastic! Where did he see this? Where, in what museum I saw such facings, I don’t know. But ... the shields were never just planks! This is not the door to your summer cottage! They were pasted over with linen or leather, or both leather and linen, primed and painted, about which there are even reports from chroniclers who wrote about Russian scarlet shields. The cross sprouted on it drew at least a well-known symbol depicted on our shields.


Prisekin Sergey Nikolaevich (1958-2015) “With a victory”. Here, the prince, however, also gleamed, but he, at least, at least far


Ryzhenko Pavel Viktorovich (1970-2014) “Blessing of Sergius”, 2005

Again, this is ... why not ?! Everything is written out very carefully, something, well, not quite, but tolerable, within the framework of the statistical error between typical and unique. That is, or, at least, we also had such painters on the pictures, which it is quite possible to look at without feeling shame! That is, quite a bit more, and history and epic on the canvases of our masters will be able to get along without interfering with each other.
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157 comments
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  1. +12
    28 March 2020 06: 15
    Thank you, a very interesting excursion into the world of painting and armor. I simply didn’t know about some paintings, but I looked at some from a different angle.
    1. +16
      28 March 2020 06: 40
      You know, me too! That's how much I looked, but never thought
      Why did the artist put on his head a samurai helmet of the Nambokute era? Where did he come from this warrior?

      Thanks to the author very much! I read your work with pleasure.
    2. -5
      28 March 2020 09: 43
      it’s very realistic, but one has only to show the Mongols as not Mongolian, as in the images of the Battle of Chaillot, they all shout in one mouth that this image is not correct because the artist is stupid, limited and illiterate.

      1. +6
        28 March 2020 10: 13
        And why do not you like the Mongols, what is left? And, by the way, medieval miniaturists made many mistakes.
        1. -4
          28 March 2020 10: 35
          Quote: kalibr
          And why do not you like the Mongols, what is left? And, by the way, medieval miniaturists made many mistakes.

          Well, you are a historian and you know that in the Battle of Chaillot, Christians and Mongols fought. If a crescent moon, it is clear that they are not Christians, but Mongols, Mongols.
          1. +17
            28 March 2020 11: 00
            Quote: Bar1
            Well, you are a historian and you know that in the Battle of Chaillot, Christians and Mongols fought. If a crescent moon, it is clear that they are not Christians, but Mongols, Mongols.

            Yes, Timur, I am a historian, and precisely because I am a historian, I know that during the Battle of Shaio the Mongols were pagans. That the Muslim faith was accepted in the Horde only under Khan Uzbek, and Berke became the first Muslim Khan and this was much later than the battle of Shaio. Here you need to focus on the helmets of warriors. But what about the crescent? The crescent moon is not used by the Shiites and only exists among the "ahlu sunnah wal jamaa", who borrowed it from ... Christians. The crescent was in the coat of arms of Constantinople, moreover, in European heraldry, the crescent marks a font in which the Church, baptized into Christ, is clothed in Him, in the Sun of Truth. And the crescent was also included in the so-called breeze - the designation of the children of the feudal lord and denoted the second son.
            So in relation to this drawing, the crescent moon is just shown above the Christians, and symbolizes the font of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear that it is too difficult for a non-specialist to know all this, but still it is not a secret behind 7 seals. There is a very interesting edition: "Heraldry" by Stephen Slater and there it is all there. Fight your ignorance and you will be happy!
            1. -4
              28 March 2020 13: 30
              Quote: kalibr
              That the Muslim faith was accepted in the Horde only under the khan of Uzbek, and the first khan was the Muslim Muslim, and it was much later than the battle of Shayo.


              I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

              Muslims in the Islamic Republic of Ossetia - this religion appeared from the Arabian Peninsula, from there appeared the symbolism of Islam - a green banner and a crescent moon. Naturally, according to the Islamic Republic of Islam came to the Mongols.
              The fact that the crescent is Byzantine symbolism I only heard, but NEVER saw evidence of this. Therefore, give evidence that the crescent is a symbol of Byzantium (coins do not count). But this is not proof.
              As for the specific battle of Shaio, here, under the Christian banners, many armies from different countries joined with the cross - these are Croats and Hungarians in the OI for the battle with the Mongols, and as if the cross in one army could not get along with the crescent moon. There were no Byzantines there, therefore, the Byzantine crescent simply has nowhere to come from. Therefore, do not invent a gag.
              1. +7
                28 March 2020 13: 42
                You read inattentively. Read again: the crescent moon marks a font in which the Church, which was baptized into Christ, is clothed in Him, in the Sun of truth.
                And now there is one more ignorance: "from there, the symbolism of Islam - the green banner and the crescent moon" appeared. Who told you that the Prophet's banner was green and had a crescent moon on it?
                And once again during the Battle of Chaillot, the Mongols were pagans, not Muslims. There are a lot of sources about this.
                By the way, about the flags ... The banner of the prophet Muhammad’s live was a black banner with two plaits, paradise - two white plaits. Live and kureysh paradise tribe - two black braids and a white banner with a yellow trim and two black braids. The Hadramat tribe (flag of paradise) from South Arabia had a green crescent with horns from the pole.
              2. +7
                28 March 2020 13: 55
                Quote: Bar1
                I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

                Could you, more specifically, tell about the dating methods known to you in OI and substantiate their fallacy? In style:
                Method number 1 ......
                Method number 2 ......
                Method number 3 .....
                1. +5
                  28 March 2020 14: 57
                  You can’t be so cruel, Igor! The man wrote HE BELIEVES. You understand it, and counts. Kogito ergo sum, finished ergo sum! And you are here method 1, method 2 ... Ay, ah!
                2. -4
                  28 March 2020 15: 48
                  methods for dating eclipses described by Thucydides during the Greco-Persian wars.
                  Petavius’s methods of calculating the birth of Christ are an example of medieval illiteracy.
                  These and many other calculations were performed with errors, which led to incorrect dating of historical events. And incorrect dating is the most important falsification of OI.
              3. +3
                28 March 2020 15: 09
                Quote: Bar1
                I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

                And what is right, if not secret, of course?
                1. -4
                  28 March 2020 16: 03
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And what is right, if not secret, of course?

                  correct date of birth of Christ performed on events
                  -Explosion of a supernova -Bethlehem star / Crab nebula
                  - Passage of Halley's Comet
                  dating of the Shroud of Turin. The dating was made in Oxford, date 1050g-1350g
                  from these three dating Fomenko and Nosovsky calculated that the date of birth of Christ is -1152
                  -there is also a dating of Jewish Passover on the zodiac of Osiris, it also falls in the middle of the 12th century.
                  1. +4
                    28 March 2020 16: 10
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Passage of Halley's Comet

                    But the comet's passage was in 1066, and is depicted on the Bayeux Tapestry. The tapestry is mentioned in the inventory of the cathedral in 1420. All records with the names of the abbots of the cathedral and the kings of England are intact and coincide with the official chronology and passage of this comet. How so?
                    1. -4
                      28 March 2020 16: 36
                      Quote: kalibr
                      But the cometary passage was in 1066, and is displayed on the "Tapestry of Bayeux"

                      cycle of the comet 75-76 years, add and get the middle of 12c.
                      1. +5
                        28 March 2020 18: 42
                        Then I add some years, when she passed in 1066 and is depicted on the tapestry. This is a historically recorded date. And with it are correlated the life dates of the rectors of the cathedral and the English kings. And it all fits together! As with all other dates.
                      2. -1
                        29 March 2020 05: 23
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Then I add some years, when she passed in 1066 and is depicted on the tapestry. This is a historically recorded date. And with it are correlated the life dates of the rectors of the cathedral and the English kings. And it all fits together! As with all other dates.

                        and what do you want to date, the birth of Christ or the battle of Hastings?
                        You really decide.
                      3. 0
                        29 March 2020 19: 38
                        Timur! Read it ATTENTIVELY again. I DO NOT WANT TO DATE ANYTHING. But if the comet passed in 1066 and this is proved, then ALL DATINGS RELATED TO THIS DATE are true, both forward and backward. Christ has absolutely nothing to do with it. Available explained?
                      4. +5
                        28 March 2020 20: 54
                        Quote: Bar1
                        cycle of the comet 75-76 years, add and get the middle of 12c.

                        Why precisely add? Doesn’t religion try to take away?
                        1066-76 * 14 = 2 A.D.
                        1066-75 * 14 = 16 A.D.
                        Those. if the Star of Bethlehem is Halley's comet, then, with the accuracy of a +/- tram stop, Jesus was born somewhere between the 2nd and the 16th century AD, and not in the 12th century AD, as Fomenko claims.
                        For more physical and more precise, you can here: http://www.pereplet.ru/gorm/fomenko/halley.htm
                      5. -2
                        29 March 2020 05: 19
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        Those. if the star of Bethlehem is Halley's comet

                        your understanding of astronomy is like a schoolboy in school who hasn’t learned lessons.
                        The Star of Bethlehem is not Halley's comet.
                      6. 0
                        29 March 2020 19: 35
                        Quote: Bar1
                        it is not Halley's comet.

                        I praise - there is progress! Now open the tapestry and see it and its associated dates. By the way, I had a detailed article on the history of tapestry from Bayeux at VO, you can go through the profile or type in a search engine.
      2. +9
        28 March 2020 12: 56
        Quote: Bar1
        stupid, limited and illiterate.

        your comment.
        A hundred times already, they sorted it all out, even the author’s series of articles came out about medieval miniatures - how they were painted and what was portrayed on them.
        I bring to your attention again, I do not even hope that the latter.
        In the Middle Ages, artists did not have photographs, televisions, mobile phones and computers at their disposal - everything that can now convey visual information about this or that object to us. Therefore, the artist could reliably depict only and exclusively what he saw with his own eyes (and that is unlikely, such a style as "realism" did not exist in art at that time), everything else - according to eyewitness accounts and (or) according to his own ideas (fantasies) ) based on personal experience. That is why what we see in medieval images exactly corresponds to the era in which the author lived and cannot in any way serve as a source of knowledge about the very event that he tried to depict, unless we know for certain that the author of the image was personally present at this event. and, contrary to the existing pictorial canons, he tried to depict the event realistically, without using either the usual clichés or symbols (such as crowns, scepters, angels, signs of nature, etc.) to emphasize the importance of what is happening.
        Almost the same thing can be said about the maps you love so much - they were drawn mainly from the stories of travelers, ruthlessly thinking over the rest that was not covered by these stories.
        Armor and weapons were painted as they saw on the street, ships - as they stand in the nearest port.
        And it’s enough already with some masochistic passion to repeat from time to time the same long-considered and refuted nonsense.
        1. -5
          28 March 2020 13: 40
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Therefore, the artist could reliably depict only and exclusively what he saw with his own eyes

          Bergere, Napoleon’s contemporary, could see with his own eyes the Kalmyks of the Russian army, so according to your words? But the Kalmyks were somehow not Kalmyk in his eyes.

          There are NO miniatures in the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din, and the fact that you and others like you refer to this fake say only one thing that the miniature of Rashid ad Din is forged and precisely for the purpose of showing the Mongols as Mongoloids, and not as white people. Is not it?

          One must probably just count the cases when medieval artists could not correctly determine the race of the people described.
          Perhaps it's time to just count the number of "these mistakes".
          And it’s not for you, a collaborator, to advise me what to do.
          1. +6
            28 March 2020 15: 00
            Quote: Bar1
            In the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din there are NO engravings - miniatures


            Illustration from the manuscript of Jami 'at-tavarih. XIV century.
            1. -2
              28 March 2020 15: 41
              Quote: kalibr
              Illustration from the manuscript of Jami 'at-tavarih. XIV century.


              already talked about it
              in the 1952 academic publication based on the Tashkent Annals
              there are no prints / miniatures.
              ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE USSR
              Institute of Oriental Studies
              RASHID-AD-DIN

              COLLECTION
              CHRONICLES.
              Volume I
              BOOK ONE
              TRANSLATION FROM PERSIAN
              l. A. Khetagurova
              EDITORIAL AND NOTES PROF. A.A. Semenova
              PUBLISHING HOUSE OF THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE USSR
              MOSCOW • 1952 • LENINGRAD


              http://trans-move.com/FA/File/sa/temp/EFPEEBXR.pdf
              1. +5
                28 March 2020 16: 14
                So they are not, because they were not included ... And all the lists of Jami 'at-tavarih have them. And you didn't include it, you know why? We had to pay big money for this, and we were always poor and therefore we did without pictures!
                1. -6
                  28 March 2020 16: 44
                  Quote: kalibr
                  So they are not, because they were not included ... And all the lists of Jami 'at-tavarih have them. And you didn't include it, you know why? We had to pay big money for this, and we were always poor and therefore we did without pictures!


                  you just want money
                  Christ said it is impossible to serve both god and mammon at the same time.
                  No matter how your Jewish golden god Taurus failed you.
                  no, not therefore. The Soviet most complete edition of the Manuscript was compiled on the basis of the Tashkent Chronicle, what money?
                  As for the Istanbul Chronicle, the historian Mirgaliyev has already stated in our time, there are no pictures in the Istanbul manuscript either.
                  And we have already talked about this.
                  So your thumbnails with Mongoloid Mongols are fake.
                  1. +5
                    28 March 2020 18: 23
                    We don't seem to be talking about money. And besides the Istanbul Chronicle, there are no others? And Jami 'at-tavarih? Or are there no miniatures? What then is the State Library of Berlin? Topkapi Museum in Istanbul? National Library of France? They are all fakes, right? And the experts have not figured it out, until now? Poor...
                    "So your miniatures with Mongoloid Mongols are fake" - who said that?
                    1. -2
                      28 March 2020 18: 36
                      Quote: kalibr
                      We don't seem to be talking about money. And besides the Istanbul Chronicle, there are no others? And Jami 'at-tavarih? Or are there no miniatures?

                      if you read at least the introduction of Academician Petrushevsky to this Soviet edition, he DOES NOT MENTION any illustrations. He CANNOT KNOW that there are manuscripts with illustrations.
                      Jamiattavarich is translated from Persian as a collection of annals.
                      1. +4
                        28 March 2020 18: 37
                        So he could. I did not want to admit that somewhere the damned capitalists have better things than ours.
                      2. -1
                        29 March 2020 05: 29
                        Quote: kalibr
                        So he could. I did not want to admit that somewhere the damned capitalists have better things than ours.


                        In this matter, I somehow believe in academicians Petrushevsky and Semenov more than in unknown editions with illustrations surfaced in the 20th century and sold to Sotheby's.
                      3. +4
                        29 March 2020 06: 54
                        You have been told many times that you are a very ignorant person. You don't know a foreign language, not a single one. And you don't even know how to use the Internet. You can look on the Internet, from where in all the above-mentioned museums and libraries lists of this ancient work. Who found, who brought and even paid how much. There is little Russian Wikipedia, there is English, French, German. There are sites for libraries and museums, and everything is there. Finally, there are sites with doctoral and master's theses "out there." Including these publications. Research in universities. Monographs, where almost every picture is understood and a line. So they did not surface in the 20th century and no Sotheby's sold them. So don't. Have discouraged you from lying about our forged chronicles, have you now taken up Persian books? Don't, it will be the same. You need to learn, and not to utter nonsense to everyone to ridicule!
                      4. -1
                        29 March 2020 08: 10
                        Quote: kalibr
                        You have been told many times that you are a very ignorant person. You don't know a foreign language, not a single one. And you don't even know how to use the Internet. You can look on the Internet, from where in all the above-mentioned museums and libraries lists of this ancient work. Who found, who brought and even paid how much. There is little Russian Wikipedia, there is English, French, German. There are sites for libraries and museums, and everything is there. Finally, there are sites with doctoral and master's theses "out there." Including these publications. Research in universities. Monographs, where almost every picture is understood and a line. So they did not surface in the 20th century and no Sotheby's sold them. So don't. Have discouraged you from lying about our forged chronicles, have you now taken up Persian books? Don't, it will be the same. You need to learn, and not to utter nonsense to everyone to ridicule!


                        eleventh or eleven started this nonsense. I know the languages, why did you decide that, I don’t know?
                        You know how to use the Internet, so show a manuscript with pictures. In the meantime, all that you wrote here in haste is just words. I will say more-the words of an Internet propagandist.
                      5. +3
                        29 March 2020 08: 36
                        Quote: Bar1
                        eleventh or eleven started this nonsense. I know the languages, why did you decide that, I don’t know?

                        Because you don't know. And I would like to see a "manuscript with pictures" - the Internet is at your service. I have already brought you one "picture". Have you forgotten? On the branch back - you will stumble upon. There are others
                        Quote: Bar1

                        I will say more, the words of the Internet propagandist.
                        Thanks for the compliment.
                      6. 0
                        29 March 2020 19: 32
                        Quote: Bar1
                        languages ​​I know

                        Russian, obscene and drunk, which is obscene and also the essence of Russian! Well, some adverb, judging by the name ... Central Asian, right? Or the Yakut-Zyryansky ... Or maybe you, Timur, are a Tabasaran? I have to guess, sorry, we were not introduced to each other, as required by the rules of decency. But what to expect from the site of anonymous.
                      7. 0
                        29 March 2020 08: 36
                        Quote: kalibr
                        So they surfaced not in the 20th century and no Sotheby's did not sell them


                        A 120-page fragment of one of Jami 'at-tawarih's illustrated manuscripts in Arabic was sold on July 8, 1980 at Sotheby's by the Royal Asiatic Society to an unknown buyer for £ 850. This was the largest amount ever paid for an Arabic manuscript.


                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Джами_ат-таварих

                        the slide of a scientific researcher into a banal distributor of false ideas of others is a logical way for any unprincipled person in capitalism.
                      8. +3
                        29 March 2020 08: 41
                        Quote: Bar1
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Джами_ат-таварих

                        the slide of a scientific researcher into a banal distributor of false ideas of others is a logical way for any unprincipled person in capitalism.

                        Again. If it didn’t come right away. This was not about that, but WHERE THESE MANUSCRIPTS HAVE TAKEN IN THE NAMED MUSEUMS. Paris, Istanbul, Berlin ... And the fact that there are manuscripts belonging to both individuals and different societies is well known. And by the way, no one buys a fake for that kind of money. A rigorous examination is carried out on dozens of parameters.
                      9. 0
                        29 March 2020 09: 06
                        Quote: kalibr
                        A rigorous examination is carried out on dozens of parameters.

                        just now, after the sale to an unknown person, an examination is no longer possible.
                        Show the Berlin and Paris annals once you talked about them.
                      10. +2
                        29 March 2020 09: 11
                        Quote: Bar1
                        just now, after the sale to an unknown person, an examination is no longer possible.
                        Show the Berlin and Paris annals once you talked about them.

                        That is why I am writing to you that you are an ignorant person from the word at all. Any examination of antique goods at Sotheby's is carried out BEFORE SALE. Go to their website and check out their rules. And why should I show you something? You know languages... I went to the website of the National Library of France and forward... Same with Berlin. I don't get paid for enlightening the ignorant. Rejoice that at least I do not refuse to answer you! And by the way, have you already started reading Slater's monographs on heraldry?
                      11. 0
                        29 March 2020 09: 14

                        I have proof of Soviet academics, an article by the historian Mirgaliyev, and you have some words like Berlin and Paris, you have manuscripts.

                        Do you think it's nice to talk with you here? You're wrong...
                      12. +2
                        29 March 2020 09: 16
                        And I am pleased with you, imagine. The more clicks you make, the higher the investment attractiveness of the site.
                      13. 0
                        29 March 2020 19: 25
                        Like, come in, look, read, everything is the same as with Mirgaliev's article. Do you know languages? Well, go ahead! And as for the Soviet academicians ... many of them have never been anywhere abroad. THREE doctors of science worked with me at the department. So, two of them didn’t fag and don’t fag in English, not a damn thing. You go to the Osprey website. Are there many of our authors? There is, but not much. There are many academicians ... but few authors - ha ha. And why - because neither wu comprene, nor sprechen zi deutch, nor speaking English ...
                        And about Slater’s monograph, how? Are you reading? All clear?
                      14. 0
                        29 March 2020 19: 39
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Like, come in, look, read, everything is the same as with Mirgaliev’s article.

                        your style of communication is "go there you don't know where", so it will not work.
                        I, unlike you, show everything and provide links.
                      15. 0
                        29 March 2020 20: 03
                        Of course it won’t work when you don’t know how to use the Internet and don’t even know English. And the second time I ask you: are you reading Slater? And then knowledge of heraldry is clearly not enough for you. And there is just a lot about the crescents and the stars ...
          2. +7
            28 March 2020 15: 13
            De Gennin, Kalmyk (or rather Kalmyk muzzle) called V. Tatishchev! Yes, the very one who wrote the History of the Russian state!
            And given that in his slander he added “I don’t like his Kalmyk face”, then here is an uncovered garden for insinuations on the forums of neophyte historians !!! Dare Timur, with us we’ll save a year and Nasonov and Fomenko will tear their hair from your knowledge !!!
            Today at Discovery a film was shown about the development of marine fishing and trade on the Arabian Peninsula. I advise you to search on the internet, there is a Dow (Dow) and a Turk!
            Good luck!
          3. +6
            28 March 2020 15: 16
            Quote: Bar1
            Bergere, Napoleon’s contemporary, could see Kalmyks with his own eyes

            Have you seen? Where, when, which ones? The finger that you type on the keyboard, give the cut that you saw? laughing
            But I and many other people have seen and continue to see them personally, communicate with them, live among them. "Do not believe your eyes, believe Bergeret" ... wassat laughing Or will you say that two hundred years ago and before, Kalmyks were Caucasian, and only now everyone has acquired an East Asian appearance, customs and language similar to Mongolian? Incidentally, I have also been to Mongolia, so I can quite compare the Mongols and Kalmyks to myself ...
            Quote: Bar1
            In the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din there are NO engravings

            No. There are drawings. There are several copies of this chronicle - it has been preserved in far from a single copy since those ancient times. There are no fakes, everything is natural, authentic and fits both in style, and in technique, and in the materials used at that time - the second half of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries. Or do you think that Rashid ad-Din wrote everything by hand, and then only photocopies were made from his personal copy? Of course, his works were copied (copied) by various scribes, primarily by contemporaries, with or without illustrations. Don't you understand this?
            Quote: Bar1
            One must probably just count the cases when medieval artists could not correctly determine the race of the people described.

            Let us return to the question of the blackness of ancient Rus? You never brought any, I'm not talking about worthy objections to this hypothesis of mine. It turns out, do you agree? laughing
            Quote: Bar1
            not for you, a collaborator here to advise me what to do

            The only thing I agree with. good laughing
            In order to give you advice, there are qualified specialists in the field of psychiatry. The only advice that I can really give you is to consult with one of them, without putting it off in a long box. If it will be an elderly intelligent Jew - consider yourself lucky.
            1. +4
              28 March 2020 22: 00
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              If it will be an elderly intelligent Jew - consider yourself lucky.

              It already doesn’t even save him. Only a lobotomy!
  2. +11
    28 March 2020 06: 26
    I started to read not seriously, and got carried away ... interesting.
  3. +12
    28 March 2020 06: 36
    Prince Dmitry also liked me in the image of Kirillov Sergey Alekseevich (b. 1960) “Dimitri Donskoy”, 2005

    Vyacheslav Olegovich and the respectable company (still expected) good morning!
    According to the Prince’s shield, let's think in a different vein. Is this princely shield?
    Considering that traditionally the Moscow princes entered into battle “horse and arms” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Rynd), I doubt that Dmitry could have an infantry shield (moreover, of a Western or Byzantine type). According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval rider's shield. And then even the Norman drop-shaped, and some kind of reduced crossbowman's float. Here we come to an interesting moment, but could it be a trophy from the Kulikovo field? Perhaps the artist was carried away by the Genoese infantry of Mamai? In principle, for a crossbowman, a shield is a one-time thing. Shot, dropped, ran away. Only it is too small for a swimmer.
    The lack of edging along the edge of the shield also bothers me.
    On the contrary, I liked the metal fittings in the form of Y. It will be necessary to rivet something like that.
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. +10
      28 March 2020 08: 13
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Given that traditionally Moscow princes fought “horse and arm” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Market), I doubt that Dmitry could have an infantry shield (with a Western or Byzantine standard). According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval shield of a rider.

      He waved with someone’s clothes and poper to fight in the front ranks. At least in the literature such a version has a place to be.
      1. +10
        28 March 2020 08: 34
        With the boyar Mikhail Brenko. At least from children's books so confidently repeated.
        1. +8
          28 March 2020 08: 38
          Quote from Korsar4
          With the boyar Mikhail Brenko.

          Yeah, thanks for reminding me.
    2. +5
      28 March 2020 11: 37
      Greetings, Vlad. hi
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval shield of a rider. And here even the Norman teardrop-shaped, and some kind of reduced arbalester float.

      The shield is generally extremely unfortunate, it is felt that the author did not understand and did not try on this issue. Fantasy.
      The oblong shape of the shield with a narrowed lower edge indicates that this shield is a cavalry one. Small size - that at least it was used with highly developed armor, that is, about the late Middle Ages. Pronounced umbon - that a fist grip was used for the shield. The lack of shield decoration indicates that it is twisted on the knee and probably belongs to some militia, and the warrior depicted in the picture simply picked it up. The presence of an ornament in the form of a metal Y-shaped plaque indicates that this militia was most likely a village blacksmith. The vertical arrangement of the boards of the shield speaks of the stupidity of its manufacturer, because this means that the handle under the umbon is located horizontally, across the boards (otherwise, how would they be held?), but the blacksmith cannot be a fool. It is possible that such a handle is absent in principle and the shield is simply put on the hand through belt loops, but then what holds the vertical boards together and why is the umbon needed?
      In short, continuous riddles and contradictions ...
      1. +5
        28 March 2020 12: 08
        I am surprised why in many modern paintings "Savior" is red. What is this - by analogy with the flag of the USSR.?


        National history mainly draws information about the Battle of Kulikovo from four sources - “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev”, “A Brief Chronicle of the Battle of Kulikovo”, “A Long Chronicle of the Battle of Kulikovo” and “Zadonshchina”. So, “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev” directly indicates that “The Savior of Prince Dmitry was embroidered with gold threads on heavy purple Roman fabric by the monks and fastened to the“ silvered staff with belts of wicker leather. banners".
        And, this does not fit into any gate - The current coat of arms of Moscow - "Gregory the Victorious"

        The first officially documented evidence of the appearance of St. George in Russia refers only to 1497. Then the serpent horseman appeared on the front of the seal of John III.
        Until then, this image was used by Prince of Moscow Vasily the Dark, father of John, in the first half of the XNUMXth century. True, the prince minted the spearman exclusively on Moscow coins, while the horseman with a falcon on his shoulder represented the prince's seal.
        1. +7
          28 March 2020 12: 19
          Quote: Rich
          Spas is red.

          For some reason, since deep childhood, I was sure that the princely banner on the Kulikovo field was black with gold. However, there were as many banners as there were princes, in any case, no less.
          1. +6
            28 March 2020 13: 03
            Greetings, Michael. hi
            For some reason, since deep childhood, I was sure that the princely banner on the Kulikovo field was black with gold.

            In the Russian icon-painting tradition, there are two types of images of the Savior - Mandylion and Keramidion. The first on a white background is a special type of image of Christ, representing His face on an obrus (plate) and the second, on a black background, representing His face on a “skull” (clay board or tile. In the temples of Mandylion and Keramidion, they were usually depicted in a dome drum, opposite each other, hence your childhood associations.
            On the main military standards of Russia, Spas was exclusively on a purple background, in memory of the Battle of Kulikovo. For example, the last main military standard of the Russian Empire, stored in the Hermitage

            The only exception was the Cossack troops of the Republic of Ingushetia. The great army of the Don RI had a military banner - "Savior on a white background", Kubanskoye - "Savior on a crimson background", Amur - "Savior on a yellow background", etc.
            Banner with the Savior on a black background is a symbol of the Black Hundreds
            1. +6
              28 March 2020 15: 36
              Yes, hello Dimitri. hi
              I think that your knowledge (I am now without irony) is hardly applicable to the fourteenth century, in any case, without evidence of the validity of such extrapolations.
              The fact is that in Rus' until the time of the late Ivan III, state symbols were generally in their infancy, disorderly and inconsistent. And if one prince went into battle under a certain banner, then it is not at all a fact that his heirs, whether they were brothers or sons, went on a military campaign under the same one, rather, on the contrary. Modern numismatics, sphragistics, vexillology, heraldry simply powerlessly raise their hands when it comes to the period of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries, the information they have on this time is so fragmentary and unsystematic. I, of course, mean Rus'. Of course, there are some achievements, but no one, not a single real scientist will tell you under which banner Mikhail Brenco stood on the Kulikovo field.
              The hypothesis voiced by you may well turn out to be true, but with the same probability - false.
              And by the way, what is magenta for you? For me, it is more likely purple than blue and, especially, blue.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Fat
                +3
                28 March 2020 18: 00
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                rather purple than blue, and especially blue.

                Let me complement it.
                Purple, along with cyan, yellow, and black in the CMYK color scheme, is the base color; magenta, when mixed with cyan, gives blue, and yellow with red.
                An additional color to purple is green (antagonists).
                You can translate the name magenta ...
                Magenta (printing)
                Fuchsia (glamorous party)
                Lilac (household Russian)
                Something like this...))))
        2. +5
          28 March 2020 13: 22
          Quote: Rich
          The first officially documented evidence of the appearance of St. George in Russia refers only to 1497.

          Not really. This rider became George the Victorious under Peter, and before that he was simply a "Moscow rider". If you don't believe me, look at the halo, or rather its absence.
    3. Fat
      +3
      28 March 2020 22: 06
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      traditionally, Moscow princes entered the battle “horse and arm” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Market),

      Let's clarify....
      Bell. For the first time the name is found in the Nikon Chronicle in the story of the Battle of Kulikovo under 1380. The bodyguards of the prince.
      Boyars - vassals of the prince and were supposed to serve in the princely army and appear "horse and arms"
      The boyar children (sons) received allotments from the boyars and were "horse and armored" to the boyar, from whom they could leave (the boyars' estates were located very chaotically within the principality). Boyar children had the right to change their overlord.
      And the boyars and boyar children armed the appropriate number of soldiers and the convoy with supplies led with them.
      The princes pledged to "look after" the boyar children who lived in their principalities "like their own" ...
      The Ustyug vault mentions "2 sons of the boyar, Kostroma, the name of the one Sabur and the name of another Grigoreya Kholpishchev", who found the wounded Dmitry Donskoy. from Wiki.
  4. +9
    28 March 2020 07: 21
    Good morning to the most respected meeting! I am writing from work, therefore, so briefly. Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for the article! And immediately the question. And where is the picture of Alexander Bubnov? In my opinion, is one of the best on this subject? hi Your opinion about her is also extremely interesting.
    1. +8
      28 March 2020 07: 24
      I join the comment of Sergey!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. +9
        28 March 2020 07: 29
        Good morning to you Vlad! To be honest, I’m not enthusiastic about Kiprensky’s picture. Why? Somehow everything looks unnatural. Theatrical! But this is certainly a personal opinion. hi
        1. +9
          28 March 2020 07: 55
          Sergei! hi
          Somehow everything looks unnatural
          Well, this is the thesis of a graduate of the Academy of Arts, it is worth considering this circumstance.
          But Glazunov really messed up. The figures in the picture are so static and unnatural that even the soldiers from the "Battle on the Ice" set, in terms of dynamics and naturalism, surpass this work by 100%.
          1. +6
            28 March 2020 08: 07
            I greet you Anton! Excuse me, but it was for this picture that he received a gold medal. But ... I don’t like it. request I guess I didn’t understand something in it. Well? It happens.
            1. +6
              28 March 2020 08: 33
              But ... here I do not like her.
              For God's sake! drinks
              I just wanted to note that the young Kiprensky had no opportunity not to correspond to the contemporary painting canons and the "terms of reference" of his thesis.
              1. +3
                28 March 2020 10: 11
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                I just wanted to note that the young Kiprensky had no opportunity not to correspond to the contemporary painting canons and the "terms of reference" of his thesis.

                Exactly! The era was such!
          2. +4
            28 March 2020 10: 07
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            But Glazunov really messed up. The figures in the picture are so static and unnatural that even the soldiers from the "Battle on the Ice" set, in terms of dynamics and naturalism, surpass this work by 100%.

            But the blood is knee-deep, in the style: "as if the horse could not step on the corpse!" lol (I mean the picture with the "Indian").
          3. +6
            28 March 2020 11: 34
            Greetings, dear friends! hi
            I just wanted to point out about Ilyusha Glazunov. As we said at the Moscow Architectural Institute, his drawing style is simple - "hands in pockets, feet in the grass", because he is unable to depict either one or the other. Well, the rest of his "painting" is in the same spirit.
            Thanks to Vyacheslav for another interesting analysis. drinks
            1. +4
              28 March 2020 14: 06
              Glazunov's illustrations for Dostoevsky are quite successful.

              My intuition begins to suggest that we can wait for the analysis of his historical paintings.

              But there is already a question, how does an artist become fashionable?
              And whom the general public knows from conditional contemporaries - Glazunov, Shilov, Konstantin Vasiliev.

              Although the latter has very memorable paintings.
              1. +6
                28 March 2020 14: 15
                Sergey, hello! Vasiliev is a separate issue, to portray Zhukov as a vulture, you need to be able to do it. As for Glazunov, I accidentally, immediately after serving in the SA, came to his exhibition (1969) in a mansion opposite Pushkin. It was organized immediately after the exhibition of his works in France, and the poster was appropriate. So, the portrait of Leo Tolstoy in a burlap frame called "Russian peasant" caused nothing but bewilderment. Particularly pleased with the scribbling in the Guestbook: "Thank you for the Russian peasant!". Well, you understand who liked this daub. And it became fashionable immediately after this exhibition, among a certain part of the population, of course. drinks hi
              2. +3
                28 March 2020 20: 21
                Quote from Korsar4
                Vasiliev.

                Although the latter has very memorable paintings.

                From his canvases, frankly, such a cold blows! Yes, and it becomes creepy. Although he was a strong artist, in terms of skill.
                1. +3
                  28 March 2020 20: 26
                  "The man with the owl" is a separate World. I found myself almost by accident at his exhibition in Gorki Leninskikh.
                  1. +3
                    28 March 2020 20: 28
                    Sergey! You know, in my opinion, a separate world in his paintings is the EYES of the heroes of his paintings.
                    1. +3
                      28 March 2020 20: 38
                      Probably the eyes are almost everywhere significant. For example, as in today’s picture of Pavel Ryzhenko hooked on.

                      The question is, probably, how close-up the picture should be in order for this to manifest itself.

                      But at the same time, I do not want to disassemble the miracle of paintings into molecules.
                      1. +3
                        28 March 2020 20: 58
                        Quote from Korsar4
                        For example, as in today’s picture of Pavel Ryzhenko hooked on.

                        A very strong artist. Was it to leave at age 44? Sadly.
                      2. +4
                        28 March 2020 21: 02
                        To my shame, I have not heard even to this day. Although in the area of ​​Ugra and Zhizdra regularly visit.
                      3. +2
                        28 March 2020 21: 05
                        Pavel Dmitrievich Ryzhenko. Died in July 2014, 16, stroke.
          4. +5
            28 March 2020 12: 05
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            But Glazunov really messed up.

            "Nakosyachil" is his second surname, you need to write with a hyphen, at least on the signatures to his historical canvases. smile
        2. +11
          28 March 2020 08: 05
          I agree, Cupids are not enough!
          I liked the work of Vavilov and Raksha! Although it makes sense to watch them not on the smartphone screen unambiguously. By the way, the battle on the Kulikovsky field does not annoy me, like the Battle on the Ice, the battle on the Niva, even the capture of Kazan and much more. In the public mind there should be tables (report points) that form the self-identification of our Fatherland!!!
          Only they should be believable, without Valkyries, cupids and .....
          Good day!
          1. +8
            28 March 2020 08: 26
            Surely the battle scenes in Game of Thrones are more realistic laughing
            But, "each time has its own orders, each felt boot has its own style"
            1. +4
              29 March 2020 01: 54
              Surely the battle scenes in Game of Thrones are more realistic

              not at all! stop With their hmm .. very strange tactics .. no one could win the final battle with the zombies! Shoot the consultants! am and a twisted ending! angry drinks
              Well .. but there are relatively strong points. wink
              "Now nothing matters .. just us ..."
              1. +3
                29 March 2020 07: 13
                Shoot the consultants!
                Undoubtedly! There are so many of them, consultants on the tactics of confronting the army of the dead. laughing
                1. +5
                  29 March 2020 18: 01
                  There are so many of them, consultants on the tactics of confronting the army of the dead.

                  no one would have launched a wild cavalry into an attack on a larger enemy, and infantry from eunuchs had to at least be rebuilt with a phalanx. Moreover, no one appointed separate crews for the catapults, and, finally, a single commander. To build ANY troops before the battle could only be frank ... I will not talk about intelligence! negative They would have lost. hi
                  1. +2
                    29 March 2020 21: 44
                    Nikolay! hi
                    I think you should not judge the series as a whole by watching one season. I saw the first three and I can evaluate it as a worthy textbook application in the Middle Ages.
        3. +5
          28 March 2020 08: 37
          The style of the time. But in this case, I agree. Not perceived.

          (PS Here I began to argue - a wretched art critic, with a pork snout, but in a high profile).
          1. +7
            28 March 2020 09: 12

            (PS Here I began to argue - a wretched art critic, with a pork snout, but in a high profile).

            That's just this flagellanism is not necessary !!! Here every second in the Hermitage and the Tretyakov Gallery serves straight! From Piotrovsky and Lotman - do not push around! laughing
            1. +6
              28 March 2020 09: 21
              What else to do at home? Now I will choose a suitable whip.
              Just during the plague, their activity increased. Only in rows and columns is it better to organize.


              Only sometimes it turns out that "the great schemer played chess for the second time in his life" (c).
              1. +4
                28 March 2020 20: 54
                Just in time for the plague
                I have already come to understand that modern humanity is unable to survive the infection, at least 10 times less virulent from plague pneumonia.
                1. +5
                  28 March 2020 20: 59
                  Probably, the exponential growth of the Earth’s population will someday be about to reach a plateau. It remains to find out the details, and the price of this.

                  Not enough information. But there are more and more clicks.
                  1. +3
                    28 March 2020 21: 07
                    Not enough information. But there are more and more clicks.
                    It is absurd, but true. Namely, in connection with the overabundance of the former, the latter flourishes.
                    1. +4
                      28 March 2020 21: 16
                      Not that a return to quotations, but strictly according to Tertullian: "I believe, for it is absurd."
                      1. +6
                        28 March 2020 21: 37
                        When an individual declares this, he is proud of being a member of society. When a society declares this, one should be ashamed of belonging to it.
                      2. +4
                        28 March 2020 21: 45
                        A very good wording.
                      3. +4
                        28 March 2020 21: 48
                        Thank! I noticed that lately, I became inclined to similar aphorisms. Apparently getting old.
                      4. +4
                        28 March 2020 22: 08
                        When one philosopher (by profession) expressed something similar, he said that he didn’t: you were getting wiser.

                        It was necessary to quote Toro almost immediately out of harm, that now there are professors of philosophy, but no philosophers.
            2. +8
              28 March 2020 09: 56
              Here every second in the Hermitage and the Tretyakov Gallery serves straight! From Piotrovsky and Lotman - do not push around!
              ,,,there are a lot of us laughing how to bask ,, conduct an examination without getting up off the couch ,,.
              1. +9
                28 March 2020 10: 34
                "We have any second in Turkmenistan -
                Ayatollah, and even Khomeini "(c).
              2. +5
                28 March 2020 15: 54
                Well, to answer the question: like-dislike, everyone is capable. As well as have their own opinions. what hi
        4. +3
          29 March 2020 01: 40
          Sergey, I’ll cleave sideways, okay? drinks He arrived late, he just visited the site! recourse
          when one of the ancestors of this ... a hungry man could capture such a helmet

          Vyacheslav Olegovich obviously wanted to say - "naked beggar" or "tattered bare ass". Joke. laughing
          then from the picture of Kiprensky

          Last name attracted. Who is Kiprensky? The son of a landowner and a peasant woman, given by him (after the discovery of pregnancy) for his own serf Adam Schwalbe (an interesting serf, right?). And the thing is that it takes place in the vicinity of Koporye - an ancient fortress founded by a detachment of German knights. A stone fortress, which is the only one in Russia that has preserved a lifting grate - a gersu that collapsed two or three weeks ago (Leonid the Overseer enlightened me). I think that the majority of the population then there were of the Lutheran confession, and therefore the name "willy-nilly stepfather" should not inspire questions. request
          Kiprensky took the surname from the grass of fireweed. We know her like ivan tea. And what is the name of this plant? "Ivan tea Koporsky". In fact, we have a drink named after the stone fortress, which is now located in the very ass of the world in the Leningrad region on a broken-down highway. But about the grass and the drink - this is to Sergey-Korsar4! drinks
    2. +7
      28 March 2020 08: 26
      Sergey! And about Bubnov it was already here. And I wrote that it is hard to believe that the armed rabble depicted here somehow defeated the Mamays. And this is when we know that the troops went out to battle from Moscow "in the Russian way", "like in the ice", that is, shining with metal. When he wrote it, "nationality", "impulse" was required, in a word, a typical picture of the era of the mobilization economy. That is, he may have written people well, I won’t argue. But this has little to do with history. Yes, and the spears of the soldiers of the first row are short for ridiculous.
  5. +13
    28 March 2020 07: 37
    Ryzhenko Pavel Viktorovich
    I went to the exhibition of his paintings and really, really liked it, my impressions are only positive. By the way, he has several paintings dedicated to those times and there is something to see and think about.

    Look, a fragment of the painting "Silence", how the conversation of the Moscow prince Dmitry, the future Donskoy, with Sergei Radonezhsky and the vigilante guarding them, how he was discharged, and the kid next to him ...
    Relight in prayer. The Bryansk boyar, who had gone to monks, did he think then that his name would live forever, for the sake of this he went to the last battle? Of course not, but he went to fulfill his duty to people and his native land and God. We, in the current situation, should not forget about such people and equalize their actions with them ..

    Peresvet, after a collision with Chelubey, the Chelubeev spear pierced him through, he is already practically dead, but remained in the saddle and rides to his ...
    After the battle, "Standing on the Bones," there is no need to explain ... In my opinion, such pictures were painted only by Vereshchagin ...
    1. +7
      28 March 2020 08: 11
      According to the first illustration, I initially thought that this was a screen of a computer game.
      A hero for the Moscow principality of the era of the era of Dmitry Donskoy - is unreal!
      Shield, helmet with visor, armor. The ax is clearly not fighting, without a beard. But for the soul work catches, definitely !!!
      hi
      1. +4
        28 March 2020 09: 21
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        A hero for the Moscow principality of the era of the era of Dmitry Donskoy - is unreal!

        For the prince's squad, more than real.
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Shield, helmet with visor, armor.
        A helmet like this...

        And in general, quite normal equipment for an equestrian warrior, except for swords, behind ...
        1. +6
          28 March 2020 10: 53
          You give an increase in a completely different picture!
          Upper: helmet with a mask and plume - lower: Iranian type with a barmini.
          Upper: the hero has a bib - no.
          Ax - a sword painted on.
          Regards, Kote!
          1. +4
            28 March 2020 21: 15
            By the way, yes! I also noticed! In the bottom picture of the hero on the helmet there is no plume and ... there is a black chicken to his right, on the top there isn’t, but there is plume. hi
      2. +4
        28 March 2020 10: 36
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Shield, helmet with visor, armor. The ax is clearly not fighting, without a beard.

        Greetings, Vladislav! As for the helmet with a visor I do not agree. The warrior clearly has a helmet with a half mask, the lower part of his face is covered with a barmitza, therefore without a beard.
        1. +6
          28 March 2020 10: 45
          I looked from the phone. It seemed to me that a helmet with an all-metal mask. With an increase, yes a half mask with a burgundy.
          Shita with a beveled top, not seen. Mostly Norman teardrop-shaped.
          The figure above and the illustration are not authentic; these are two different heroes.
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. +4
            28 March 2020 11: 00
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Shita with a beveled top, not seen. Mostly Norman teardrop-shaped.

            There, logically, based on a helmet with a half mask, there should be an almond-shaped shield, something to cover the lower part of the face. Because, with an equestrian collision, getting a spear in your mouth, covered only with a barmitza, can end not only with the need for a visit to the dentist.
            1. +4
              28 March 2020 11: 05
              I do not argue! For similar purposes, riders used round and oval shields,
  6. -1
    28 March 2020 07: 49
    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    we will be interested not in the idea embedded in these paintings, but in the image of weapons and armor.

    Well, children's ideas about the beautiful, broke on a rock of realism. laughing

    ... In the taverns - a green damask,
    White napkins.
    Paradise for beggars and jesters
    Well - like a bird in a cage!
    There is stench and twilight in the church
    The clerks smoke incense.
    No! And in the church it's not like that
    Everything is not as it should ...
  7. +4
    28 March 2020 07: 59
    Personally, I would change only the drawing on the shield of the Tatar warrior.
    And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord. I liked the article very much, like the previous articles in the series. Thank you very much to Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    1. +7
      28 March 2020 11: 12
      Quote: AK1972
      Personally, I would change only the drawing on the shield of the Tatar warrior.
      And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord. I liked the article very much, like the previous articles in the series. Thank you very much to Vyacheslav Olegovich.

      Are you the brothers of the Templar Order or the Livonian Order! Someone who, and based on their armor, they certainly did not believe in God! smile
      1. +1
        28 March 2020 12: 31
        I had in mind Russian, Orthodox monks, Vladislav. Sergey’s commentary (svp67) shows two paintings by Ryzhenko, in which Peresvet without armor and these paintings are 100% historical.
        1. +3
          28 March 2020 14: 10
          The canvas, where Peresvet at prayer makes a very strong impression.
        2. +1
          28 March 2020 19: 15
          Quote: AK1972
          Relight without armor and these paintings are 100% historical.

          This is why 100%? Maybe there was no Relight at all.
      2. +3
        28 March 2020 12: 51
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Are you the brothers of the Templar Order or the Livonian Order! Someone who, and based on their armor, they certainly did not believe in God!

        Why, Vladislav?
        1. +6
          28 March 2020 13: 41
          Vyacheslav Olegovich !!! And you are on this rake .... good
          I am Kote Panet Kohanka, the name is Vladislav, the cat is Sonya, I live in the Urals, my old nickname is Kotische.
          Not me - Pan Kokhanka, name Nikolay, lives in St. Petersburg, Mikado cat, old nickname: Mikado!
          Sincerely yours, Vlad!
          R.s. It’s necessary to have a mouse in Pan’s cellar so that the adversaries have a brain rupture.
          Hand mouse Kote Pan Kohanka !!!! And what sounds .. drinks
          1. +3
            28 March 2020 13: 57
            "And this is a funny bird Tit,
            Who often steals wheat,
            Which is stored in a dark closet,
            In the house that Kote built "(almost (c).
            1. +6
              28 March 2020 14: 54
              Quote from Korsar4
              "And this is a funny bird Tit,
              Who often steals wheat,
              Which is stored in a dark closet,
              In the house that Kote built "(almost (c).

              To be honest, the house was built by Nikolai (Pan Kokhanka), and I so stumbled into his cellar! Closer to the wings with milk and sour cream, and the rats are not far away. feel
          2. +6
            28 March 2020 15: 05
            Damn you, with these changes. My memory is full to the limit!
            1. +6
              28 March 2020 15: 17
              And we are not offended by you! This is me and the milk caps in the cellar !!!
            2. +5
              28 March 2020 19: 42
              Focus on me, Vyacheslav Olegovich! I will always clarify "who, where, why" laughing
              1. +4
                28 March 2020 19: 50
                "I would like to know in detail:
                Who, where, faq and how! "(C).
                1. +3
                  28 March 2020 19: 56
                  Sergei hi I admit, I’m not ready for the new tournament. Courage is dumb .... request
                  1. +3
                    28 March 2020 19: 59
                    This is not a stream from which you can have a good use.
                    Just peaceful associations.
                    1. +4
                      28 March 2020 20: 05
                      Sure. But when playing, even in "mothers and daughters", it always makes sense to give in to the game to the end and bet on "zero". Otherwise, what's the point of playing?
                      1. +4
                        28 March 2020 20: 08
                        Yes. I agree. Once I sent a previous message, I realized that it can be interpreted in two ways.
                      2. +3
                        28 March 2020 20: 20
                        I often ignore your tricks on the game, sorry! Now I have explained.
              2. +4
                29 March 2020 02: 11
                "who, where, why"

                when, whooooo! (Professor, "Vampire Ball")
                Professor? belay
                "I immediately check any suspicions,
                I make up my mind and find out the truth.
                I tried to analyze the world from the cradle!
                Toys dissected, going towards a great goal -
                Since childhood!"
                laughing
          3. +5
            28 March 2020 18: 32
            Something I did not understand this turbulent agitation request
    2. +5
      28 March 2020 14: 16
      “And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord”

      Peresvet was not an experienced fighter suicide, and it is unlikely that such a fight would have come without armor.
    3. +2
      29 March 2020 02: 07
      and would dress him in a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord.

      Reminded:
      The Holy Father brought the word of God into darkness,
      And eternal life promises me miracles ...

      "Aria". With respect, Nicholai drinks
  8. +5
    28 March 2020 08: 08
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I will throw another idea for the article: consideration of sets of game military miniatures, from the point of view of historicity.
    1. +4
      28 March 2020 08: 16
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I will throw another idea for the article: consideration of sets of game military miniatures, from the point of view of historicity.

      Yes, it is interesting. But I don’t know yet how to tackle this.
      1. +3
        28 March 2020 08: 19
        Perhaps you should consult with Vashchenko. Judging by several materials, Edward understands the topic.
        1. +3
          28 March 2020 08: 29
          Maybe he should write to him? Articles about the sets of soldiers he had were great!
          1. +3
            28 March 2020 09: 01
            Three points:
            1. I do not know how interesting this is to him.
            2. Edward writes here "for his own pleasure", and is not bound by the framework of the contract, unlike ...
            3. My little selfish interest. I am impressed, from time to time, to serve as a source of inspiration for your creativity.
            1. +3
              28 March 2020 10: 07
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              3. My little selfish interest.

              "A lot of hands do better!" - old English proverb
      2. +3
        28 March 2020 08: 40
        Quote: kalibr
        Yes, it is interesting.

        This is interesting for professionals. Realism in pictures should be, but not "photographic", but so it looks like an attempt to vulgarize everything and everyone ....

        I'm afraid to even present a dialogue next to some kind of picture of an archaeologist and pathologist. laughing

  9. +7
    28 March 2020 08: 30
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    But really the picture of Avilov stands out among others. Either due to the fact that it was repeated so many times, and was consumed in consciousness. Or just very successful.

    But in Glazunov's "The Duel of Perestvet" really makes you ask questions.
  10. BAI
    +5
    28 March 2020 09: 59
    With the Battle of Kulikovo, a lot is not clear.
    Here is the referred Peresvet (and Oslyabya). Where did the monks get pagan names? Here is Sergius of Radonezh. Everyone knows - Sergius. And in the world - Bartholomew, but under this name he is almost unknown. And the names of the above monks have not changed?
    By the way, about the blessing of Sergius. But was it? Sergius at that time was in a quarrel with Dmitry and refused to baptize some of his relative.
    Well, they already said about Bubnov.
    1. +2
      28 March 2020 10: 06
      Totally agree with you...
      1. BAI
        +4
        28 March 2020 10: 11
        By the way, there are a lot of pictures. Even in the volume of the article could be more (desirable). Here is another analogue of how the article began.
    2. +4
      28 March 2020 10: 57
      Why pagan? Alexander Peresvet and Rodion Oslyabya, monk Andrew.

      I do not see any particular contradictions.
      1. BAI
        +2
        28 March 2020 14: 57
        If we proceed from the fact that these are names, then it is even more interesting. Monks have no surnames. From the word "in general". If there is a surname, then they were civilians, not monks. "Radonezhsky", "Kronstadt" are not surnames.
        1. +3
          28 March 2020 15: 19
          It's not about surnames. Life begins: "Alexander of Radonezh, in the world of Peresvet".
  11. +5
    28 March 2020 18: 37
    In any case, we will not be interested in the idea embodied in these paintings, but in the image of weapons and armor.
    Based on this criterion, it was better to start not from Kiprensky, but Sazonov. He obviously has more preliminaries.
    1. +3
      28 March 2020 19: 10
      And among contemporary artists in terms of the Battle of Kulikovo and the image of armor, Victor Matorin, by the way, yours, Vyacheslav Olegovich, a fellow countryman, a graduate of the Penza Art School, provides extensive discussion food.

      Dmitry Donskoy.
      1. +6
        28 March 2020 19: 12

        And this is his opponent - Mamai.
        1. +4
          28 March 2020 19: 28
          Viktor Nikolayevich, hello! Do you know who posed to Matorina when creating the portrait of Mamai? Head of the security of the Mongolian embassy! The artist himself spoke about this in an interview. He looked for a character for the painting and turned to the Mongolian embassy, ​​so he chose this gentleman. hi
          1. +3
            28 March 2020 19: 34
            Given that the intravital portraits of Mamai have not been preserved, we will consider the choice a good one.
      2. +2
        28 March 2020 19: 36
        Quote: Undecim
        Dmitry Donskoy.

        We also have a monument to Donskoy.

        Only, what’s the matter, there was originally a monument in the form of a head, and we dried it on a coward when we bathed in a fire reservoir. crying
      3. +2
        28 March 2020 19: 58
        The fellow countryman is not a fellow countryman, but his picture The Battle of the Ice I don't like!
      4. +3
        28 March 2020 20: 55
        “From contemporary artists in terms of the Battle of Kulikovo and the image of armor, Victor Matorin provides extensive food for discussion,”

        Dmitry Ivanovich at the time of the Battle of Kulikovo was 30 years old, why Matorin paints him with an old man is not clear.
  12. +6
    28 March 2020 18: 48
    It got to the point that Valentin Serov, for example, who was ordered the "Battle ...", did not write it and even returned the money issued for it. And all because he did not agree with the customers in their views.
    After Serov, Malyutin suffered the same fate. After him, Korovin turned out to be just as incapacitated.
    And the reason is that the consultant was Ivan Yegorovich Zabelin, a well-known Russian historian and archaeologist, the initiator of the creation and deputy chairman of the Imperial Russian Historical Museum named after Emperor Alexander III, for whom he ordered the painting and who, as a specialist, put forward so many requirements in terms of historical authenticity and artistic expressiveness, that no one took up the picture and the place for it remained empty until 1950, until some kind of neutral landscape was placed there.
  13. -1
    30 March 2020 12: 39
    the mace in Kirillov’s picture is still controversial)) the top is yes, he himself saw these alive, and the hilt looks metal, there are questions.

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