Military Review

Kulikovo battle in images and paintings

157
Kulikovo battle in images and paintings
"Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo field." Kiprensky Orest Adamovich, 1805 (1782-1836)


And, bowing his head to the ground,
A friend tells me: "Cut your sword,
In order to fight with the Tatar,
For a holy cause, lie dead! ”
A. Block. On the Kulikovo field


Art and история. After the release of material devoted to triptych P. Corin, readers of "VO" expressed their wishes for the continuation of the cycle, and proposed specific topics for new articles. Among them is the Don cycle by I. Glazunov. But I looked at the paintings of this cycle, and thought that it would probably be more interesting to arrange a kind of vernissage of paintings on the subject of the Battle of Kulikovo, that is, consider not one or two, but many paintings and compare what their authors have and what’s more all inclined. Here, however, the question arose of selection, since there are many paintings. But, in my opinion, the principle of image is important. Someone copied the Roerich style, someone Vasnetsov, someone hit the epic, and someone into realism. In any case, we will be interested not in the idea embedded in these paintings, but in the image weapons and armor. After all, we still have a battle genre, and not something else ... So, let's start from the XNUMXth century.

Here is a picture of O. A. Kiprensky "Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo field." What can I say? It was such a time! Everything was written expertly, but I just want to laugh a little at what is happening on the canvas. Prince: “Oh Lord, you are my God, how I got! My torment is unbearable! ” A woman at his feet (by the way, where is the woman from?): "Lord, save and save!" A man in a torn shirt: "This is the prince, ulcerative velmi!". Warrior in a green cloak: “Is it really a prince, I am old with my eyes, I can’t make out ...” Warrior in a helmet: “I’m prince bad! Water to him, water! ”

However, he painted all this on ... a task. Everything was agreed! This Academy of Arts, as an examination test, invited its graduates to paint a picture on the theme "Dmitry Donskoy on the Kulikovo Field." And it was clearly stipulated how exactly the prince should be portrayed:

“Imagine Grand Duke Dmitry Donskoy when, after defeating Mamaia, the remaining Princes of Russia and other warriors find him in a grove with the last almost gasp, blood flowed from his wounds: but the good news of the complete defeat of the Tatars revives the dying grand duke.”

And here is what was said in the Academy’s response to this picture:

“The head of the grand duke is full of expression. And the joy of the victory, he is animated, bought with gratitude to the Almighty, vividly depicted in his languid gaze, directed to heaven. This work is the first experience of the works of this young artist, giving great hope for himself. "

And in the end, on September 1, 1805, Kiprensky was awarded the Great Gold Medal for this painting.

Well, the lack of national color did not bother the author or the examiners, and, therefore, that’s not the right armor, not the weapon, but the picture of the master. And it, of course, corresponds to the era and the then vision of historical realities.

Subsequently, a number of artists followed his example and received appropriate recognition, but time passed, and people began to pay attention to history. It got to the point that Valentin Serov, for example, who was ordered the "Battle ...", did not write it and even returned the money issued for it. And all because he did not agree with customers in their views.


Then came the Soviet time, socialist realism, and with it came its own classic. Here, for example, this is the picture of Avilov Mikhail Ivanovich (1882-1954) “Duel on the Kulikovo Field”, written by him in 1943, which is known to everyone from school.

Personally, I would only change the drawing on the shield of the Tatar warrior. Here it is shown painted, but in reality they were made of rods wrapped in thread, connecting one ring to another. It turned out a very beautiful pattern, which was additionally decorated with plaques and tassels. But, in principle, this is not even a comment. Just at that time, the reconstruction of the Tatar shields were still missing. And so is dynamism, and expression, and epicism - everything is present, not an inch span of historical authenticity. Actually, with this canvas Avilov raised the bar so high that anyone who undertakes to write on the same topic can be advised only one thing: to look at this canvas for a long time and at the same time think, can I at least get closer to this. And if the inner voice makes you doubt your strength - do not fight!


The middle part of the triptych of Yu. Raksha

By 1980, on the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kulikovo, Yu. M. Raksha wrote the triptych “Kulikovo Field”. We are especially interested in its middle part. And it seems to be "all right." But why did the author draw the warrior on his left, with the shield on his right hand, the archery berdysh, which he holds in his left hand? Even if he is left-handed, chopping the enemy with a berdysh with one hand is impossible, and with two, with a shield, is inconvenient. And such trifles spoil the whole impression of the picture.


The artist Yu. P. Pantyukhin also created a triptych, with Alexander Nevsky placed on the left, Dmitry Donsky in the center, and Minin and Pozharsky on the right

What did you like? The way the author wrote helmets. Finally, they are as they should be. It is not clear why the elbow pieces that he portrayed on the left and on the right - an overlap on the brush. And what’s interesting - where did the author get this from? Are there any elbow pads in the fonts of the Armory Board or GIM? Moreover, if something like this exists, then it can in no way relate to the era of Alexander Nevsky. Then there was neither of us nor the Western knights. However, we already spoke about Nevsky ... Here two more details are striking: the octagonal breast plates of both princes. It can be seen that the artist really liked them. But then it was not! Dmitri was at least 200 years separated from the mirror armor. And since it was not, then why draw it? And it’s fun to read the descriptions of all these paintings made by art critics. Marked and "multidirectional views", and confidence, shining in poses, and the people in the background, supporting his leader. But what, dear ones, you don’t see other elementary things that the artist painted “as he sees”, although he should try to draw “as it was”. So, we have historical fantasies and today even a dime a dozen.

For example, I’m preparing this material, browsing the Network, and there: “Three thousand six hundred heavily armed Genoese foot soldiers represented a formidable force.” Where did 3600 Genoese infantrymen and another 400 crossbowmen come from on the Kulikovo field when we don’t know exactly even the number of troops on the battlefield? Mommy hired? Where? In a cafe in Sudak? Yes, so many soldiers in all of Genoa were not. Magistrates - records of this have been preserved, dozens of soldiers have been recruited, and they were delighted. But the main thing is not even this, but where is the source, where did the author get these numbers: 3600 spearmen and 400 crossbowmen? I recall that in the publications of 1980 the number of 1000 Genoese was called - and even then it was called into question. And then ... by budding multiplied?


But I can’t even explain this picture of Ilya Glazunov ... I don’t understand what this can be connected with. And most importantly - why? Neither posture nor detailing makes any sense. Horses gallop in different directions, Glazunovsky Peresvet, instead of eating a spear like Avilov Peresvet, holds it like a reed ... not to understand how. And the Tatar with both hands grabbed at him - a grip that was probably not used for about five hundred years at least! And the horse itself under it is somehow “perverted” - the croup and neck in one direction, the head in the other ... Picturesque hooliganism is, not art!


And here is another of his paintings in a recognizable Roerich style. But look at the half-naked Tatar on the right. Why did the artist put on his head a samurai helmet of the Nambokute era? Where did he come from this warrior? After all, the Mongols invaded Japan a century earlier ... That is, in Mamai the warriors could not have such helmets in 1380, since in 1274 and 1281, when one of the ancestors of this ... a helper could capture a helmet like a trophy, it’s from such kuvagata simply did not exist. By golly, such bloopers disgusting even comment

It should be noted that in recent years, artists have become more demanding of themselves in relation to the depiction of historical realities.


Here, for example, Dmitry Anatolyevich Belyukin’s painting (b.1962) Dmitry Donskoy, 2015. Armor is a forged army, although it would be nice to show the plate mounts on chain mail. One can argue about the top of the hilt of the sword, but ... so in general - why not?


Prince Dmitry also liked me in the image of Kirillov Sergey Alekseevich (b. 1960) “Dimitri Donskoy”, 2005

Moreover, such a mace is quite possible with him. And the plate armor is shown very realistically. Even plate leggings ... Well, that could be. That's just some kind of shield he has fantastic! Where is he spotted? Where, in what museum I saw such covers, I do not know. But ... shields were never just boards! This is not the door to your country cottage! They were pasted over with cloth or leather, or both skin and cloth, primed and painted, about which there are even reports of chroniclers who wrote about Russian scarlet shields. The cross sprouted on it painted at least - a well-known symbol depicted on our shields.


Prisekin Sergey Nikolaevich (1958-2015) “With a victory”. Here, the prince, however, also gleamed, but he, at least, at least far


Ryzhenko Pavel Viktorovich (1970-2014) “Blessing of Sergius”, 2005

Again this ... why not ?! Everything was written out very carefully, something, well, not quite, but bearable, within the statistical error between the typical and the unique. That is, or, at least, we had such painters in the paintings, which can be watched without feeling shame! That is, quite a bit, and the story and epic on the canvases of our masters can get along without interfering with each other.
Author:
Articles from this series:
“The Battle of Angiari” and “The Battle of Marciano”: student versus teacher, symbolism versus realism
“The Battle of Angiari” and “The Battle of Marciano”. Leonardo da Vinci and Giorgio Vasari
Pavel Korin. "Alexander Nevskiy". The insoluble task of a restless soul
“The Battle of Grunwald” by Jan Matejko: when there is too much epic
"Heroes" Vasnetsov: when the main epic in the picture
157 comments
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  1. Van 16
    Van 16 28 March 2020 06: 15 New
    12
    Thank you, a very interesting excursion into the world of painting and armor. I simply didn’t know about some paintings, but I looked at some from a different angle.
    1. DMB 75
      DMB 75 28 March 2020 06: 40 New
      16
      You know, me too! That's how much I looked, but never thought
      Why did the artist put on his head a samurai helmet of the Nambokute era? Where did he come from this warrior?

      Thanks to the author very much! I read your work with pleasure.
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 28 March 2020 09: 43 New
      -5
      it’s very realistic, but one has only to show the Mongols as not Mongolian, as in the images of the Battle of Chaillot, they all shout in one mouth that this image is not correct because the artist is stupid, limited and illiterate.

      1. kalibr
        28 March 2020 10: 13 New
        +6
        And why do not you like the Mongols, what is left? And, by the way, medieval miniaturists made many mistakes.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 28 March 2020 10: 35 New
          -4
          Quote: kalibr
          And why do not you like the Mongols, what is left? And, by the way, medieval miniaturists made many mistakes.

          Well, you are a historian and you know that in the Battle of Chaillot, Christians and Mongols fought. If a crescent moon, it is clear that they are not Christians, but Mongols, Mongols.
          1. kalibr
            28 March 2020 11: 00 New
            17
            Quote: Bar1
            Well, you are a historian and you know that in the Battle of Chaillot, Christians and Mongols fought. If a crescent moon, it is clear that they are not Christians, but Mongols, Mongols.

            Yes, Timur, I am a historian, and precisely because I am a historian, I know that during the Battle of Chaillot the Mongols were pagans. That the Muslim faith was adopted in the Horde only under the khan of Uzbekistan, and the first khan was Muslim, and that was much later than the battle of Shayo. It is necessary to focus on the helmets of warriors. But what about the crescent? The crescent is not used by the Shiites and takes place only in the environment of "Akhlu Sunnah Val Jamaa", which borrowed it from ... Christians. The crescent was in the coat of arms of Constantinople; moreover, in European heraldry, the crescent marks a font in which the Church, which was baptized into Christ, is clothed in Him, in the Sun of truth. And another crescent was included in the so-called breezers - designations of the children of the feudal lord and designated the second son.
            So in relation to this drawing, the crescent is just shown over the Christians, and symbolizes the font of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is clear that it is too difficult for a non-specialist to know all this, but still this is not a secret behind 7 seals. There is a very interesting publication: “Heraldry” by Stephen Slater, and there it is. Fight your ignorance and you will be happy!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 28 March 2020 13: 30 New
              -4
              Quote: kalibr
              That the Muslim faith was accepted in the Horde only under the khan of Uzbek, and the first khan was the Muslim Muslim, and it was much later than the battle of Shayo.


              I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

              Muslims in the Islamic Republic of Ossetia - this religion appeared from the Arabian Peninsula, from there appeared the symbolism of Islam - a green banner and a crescent moon. Naturally, according to the Islamic Republic of Islam came to the Mongols.
              The fact that the crescent is Byzantine symbolism I only heard, but NEVER saw evidence of this. Therefore, give evidence that the crescent is a symbol of Byzantium (coins do not count). But this is not proof.
              As for the specific battle of Chaillot, here, under the Christian banners, many ratios of different countries joined the cross - these are Croats and Hungarians in the Olympic Games for the battle with the Mongols and as if the cross in one army could not get along with the crescent. There were no Byzantines, therefore, the Byzantine crescent is simply nowhere to come from. Therefore, do not invent a gag.
              1. kalibr
                28 March 2020 13: 42 New
                +7
                You read inattentively. Read again: the crescent moon marks a font in which the Church, which was baptized into Christ, is clothed in Him, in the Sun of truth.
                And now one more ignorance: "from there appeared the symbolism of Islam - a green banner and a crescent." Who told you that the banner of the Prophet was green and had a crescent on it?
                And once again during the Battle of Chaillot, the Mongols were pagans, not Muslims. There are a lot of sources about this.
                By the way, about the flags ... The banner of the prophet Muhammad’s live was a black banner with two plaits, paradise - two white plaits. Live and kureysh paradise tribe - two black braids and a white banner with a yellow trim and two black braids. The Hadramat tribe (flag of paradise) from South Arabia had a green crescent with horns from the pole.
              2. Hantengri
                Hantengri 28 March 2020 13: 55 New
                +7
                Quote: Bar1
                I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

                Could you, more specifically, tell about the dating methods known to you in OI and substantiate their fallacy? In style:
                Method number 1 ......
                Method number 2 ......
                Method number 3 .....
                1. kalibr
                  28 March 2020 14: 57 New
                  +5
                  You can’t be so cruel, Igor! The man wrote HE BELIEVES. You understand it, and counts. Kogito ergo sum, finished ergo sum! And you are here method 1, method 2 ... Ay, ah!
                2. Bar1
                  Bar1 28 March 2020 15: 48 New
                  -4
                  methods for dating eclipses described by Thucydides during the Greco-Persian wars.
                  Petavius’s methods of calculating the birth of Christ are an example of medieval illiteracy.
                  These and many other calculations were performed with errors, which led to incorrect dating of historical events. And incorrect dating is the most important falsification of OI.
              3. kalibr
                28 March 2020 15: 09 New
                +3
                Quote: Bar1
                I do not think the accepted chronology is correct. Too many errors in the methods of calculating dates in these methods of calculation.

                And what is right, if not secret, of course?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 28 March 2020 16: 03 New
                  -4
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And what is right, if not secret, of course?

                  correct date of birth of Christ performed on events
                  -Explosion of a supernova -Bethlehem star / Crab nebula
                  -Hallway comet Halley
                  dating of the Shroud of Turin. The dating was made in Oxford, date 1050g-1350g
                  from these three dating Fomenko and Nosovsky calculated that the date of birth of Christ is -1152
                  -there is also a dating of Jewish Passover on the zodiac of Osiris, it also falls in the middle of the 12th century.
                  1. kalibr
                    28 March 2020 16: 10 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Halley's comet passage

                    But the comet’s passage was in 1066, and is displayed on the Bayeux Tapestry. The tapestry is mentioned in the inventory of the cathedral in 1420. All records with the names of the rectors of the cathedral and the kings of England are intact and coincide with the official chronology and the passage of this comet. How so?
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 28 March 2020 16: 36 New
                      -4
                      Quote: kalibr
                      But the comet’s passage was in 1066, and is displayed on the Bayeux Tapestry

                      cycle of the comet 75-76 years, add and get the middle of 12c.
                      1. kalibr
                        28 March 2020 18: 42 New
                        +5
                        Then I add some years, when she passed in 1066 and is depicted on the tapestry. This is a historically recorded date. And with it are correlated the life dates of the rectors of the cathedral and the English kings. And it all fits together! As with all other dates.
                      2. Bar1
                        Bar1 29 March 2020 05: 23 New
                        -1
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Then I add some years, when she passed in 1066 and is depicted on the tapestry. This is a historically recorded date. And with it are correlated the life dates of the rectors of the cathedral and the English kings. And it all fits together! As with all other dates.

                        and what do you want to date, the birth of Christ or the battle of Hastings?
                        You really decide.
                      3. kalibr
                        29 March 2020 19: 38 New
                        0
                        Timur! Read it ATTENTIVELY again. I DO NOT WANT TO DATE ANYTHING. But if the comet passed in 1066 and this is proved, then ALL DATINGS RELATED TO THIS DATE are true, both forward and backward. Christ has absolutely nothing to do with it. Available explained?
                  2. Hantengri
                    Hantengri 28 March 2020 20: 54 New
                    +5
                    Quote: Bar1
                    cycle of the comet 75-76 years, add and get the middle of 12c.

                    Why precisely add? Doesn’t religion try to take away?
                    1066-76 * 14 = 2 A.D.
                    1066-75 * 14 = 16 A.D.
                    Those. if the Star of Bethlehem is Halley's comet, then, with the accuracy of a +/- tram stop, Jesus was born somewhere between the 2nd and the 16th century AD, and not in the 12th century AD, as Fomenko claims.
                    For more physical and more precise, you can here: http://www.pereplet.ru/gorm/fomenko/halley.htm
                  3. Bar1
                    Bar1 29 March 2020 05: 19 New
                    -2
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Those. if the star of Bethlehem is Halley's comet

                    your understanding of astronomy is like a schoolboy in school who hasn’t learned lessons.
                    The Star of Bethlehem is not Halley's comet.
                  4. kalibr
                    29 March 2020 19: 35 New
                    0
                    Quote: Bar1
                    it is not Halley's comet.

                    I praise - there is progress! Now open the tapestry and see it and its associated dates. By the way, I had a detailed article on the history of tapestry from Bayeux at VO, you can go through the profile or type in a search engine.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 12: 56 New
    +9
    Quote: Bar1
    stupid, limited and illiterate.

    your comment.
    A hundred times already, they sorted it all out, even the author’s series of articles came out about medieval miniatures - how they were painted and what was portrayed on them.
    I bring to your attention again, I do not even hope that the latter.
    In the Middle Ages, artists did not have photographs, televisions, mobile phones and computers at their disposal - all that can now be conveyed to us by visual information about a particular object. Therefore, the artist could reliably depict only and exclusively what he saw with his own eyes (and it is unlikely that such a style as “realism” did not exist in art at that time), everything else was based on eyewitness accounts and (or) on his own ideas (fantasies ) based on personal experience. That is why what we see in medieval images exactly corresponds to the era in which the author lived and cannot in any way serve as a source of knowledge about the event itself, which he tried to depict, unless we reliably know that the author of the image was personally present at this event and, contrary to the existing canons of painting, he tried to portray the event realistically, without using any familiar cliches or symbols (such as crowns, scepters, angels, natural signs, etc.) to emphasize the importance of what was happening.
    Almost the same thing can be said about the maps you love so much - they were drawn mainly from the stories of travelers, ruthlessly thinking over the rest that was not covered by these stories.
    Armor and weapons were painted as they saw on the street, ships - as they stand in the nearest port.
    And it’s enough already with some masochistic passion to repeat from time to time the same long-considered and refuted nonsense.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 28 March 2020 13: 40 New
      -5
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Therefore, the artist could reliably depict only and exclusively what he saw with his own eyes

      Bergere, Napoleon’s contemporary, could see with his own eyes the Kalmyks of the Russian army, so according to your words? But the Kalmyks were somehow not Kalmyk in his eyes.

      There are NO miniatures in the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din, and the fact that you and others like you refer to this fake say only one thing that the miniature of Rashid ad Din is forged and precisely for the purpose of showing the Mongols as Mongoloids, and not as white people. Is not it?

      One must probably just count the cases when medieval artists could not correctly determine the race of the people described.
      Perhaps the time has come to simply calculate the number of "these errors."
      And it’s not for you, a collaborator, to advise me what to do.
      1. kalibr
        28 March 2020 15: 00 New
        +6
        Quote: Bar1
        In the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din there are NO engravings - miniatures


        Illustration from the manuscript of Jami 'at-tavarih. XIV century.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 28 March 2020 15: 41 New
          -2
          Quote: kalibr
          Illustration from the manuscript of Jami 'at-tavarih. XIV century.


          talked about it already
          in the 1952 academic publication based on the Tashkent Annals
          there are no prints / miniatures.
          ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE USSR
          Institute of Oriental Studies
          RASHID-AD-DIN

          COLLECTION
          CHRONICLES.
          Volume I
          BOOK ONE
          TRANSLATION FROM PERSIAN
          l and. Khetagurova
          EDITORIAL AND NOTES PROF. A.A. Semenova
          PUBLISHING HOUSE OF THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES OF THE USSR
          MOSCOW • 1952 • LENINGRAD


          http://trans-move.com/FA/File/sa/temp/EFPEEBXR.pdf
          1. kalibr
            28 March 2020 16: 14 New
            +5
            So they are not, because they were not included ... And all the lists of Jami 'at-tavarih have them. And do not include know why? It was necessary to pay big grandmothers for this, and we were always poor and therefore dispensed with pictures!
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 28 March 2020 16: 44 New
              -6
              Quote: kalibr
              So they are not, because they were not included ... And all the lists of Jami 'at-tavarih have them. And do not include know why? It was necessary to pay big grandmothers for this, and we were always poor and therefore dispensed with pictures!


              you only need money
              Christ said it is impossible to serve both god and mammon at the same time.
              No matter how your Jewish golden god Taurus failed you.
              no, not therefore. The Soviet most complete edition of the Manuscript was compiled on the basis of the Tashkent Chronicle, what money?
              As for the Istanbul Chronicle, the historian Mirgaliyev has already stated in our time, there are no pictures in the Istanbul manuscript either.
              And we have already talked about this.
              So your thumbnails with Mongoloid Mongols are fake.
              1. kalibr
                28 March 2020 18: 23 New
                +5
                We do not seem to be talking about money. But besides the Istanbul annals there are no others? What about Jami 'at-tawarih? Or are there no thumbnails? But what then is the State Library of Berlin? Topkapi Museum in Istanbul? National Library of France? There are all fakes, right? And the experts have not figured it out yet? Poor...
                "So your miniatures with Mongoloid Mongols are fake" - who said this?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 28 March 2020 18: 36 New
                  -2
                  Quote: kalibr
                  We do not seem to be talking about money. But besides the Istanbul annals there are no others? What about Jami 'at-tawarih? Or are there no thumbnails?

                  if you read at least the introduction of Academician Petrushevsky to this Soviet edition, he DOES NOT MENTION any illustrations. He CANNOT KNOW that there are manuscripts with illustrations.
                  Jamiattavarich is translated from Persian as a collection of annals.
                  1. kalibr
                    28 March 2020 18: 37 New
                    +4
                    So he could. I did not want to admit that somewhere the damned capitalists have better things than ours.
                  2. Bar1
                    Bar1 29 March 2020 05: 29 New
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    So he could. I did not want to admit that somewhere the damned capitalists have better things than ours.


                    In this matter, I somehow believe in academicians Petrushevsky and Semenov more than in unknown editions with illustrations surfaced in the 20th century and sold to Sotheby's.
                  3. kalibr
                    29 March 2020 06: 54 New
                    +4
                    You have been written many times that you are a very ignorant person. Do not know a foreign language, not one. And you don’t even know how to use the Internet. You can see on the Internet, where in all the above museums and libraries lists of this ancient work. Who found, who brought, and even how much they paid. Few Russian Wikipedia, there is English, French, German. There are sites of libraries and museums. Everything is there. Finally, there are sites with doctoral and master's theses "there." Including these publications. Research at universities. Monographs, where almost every picture understands and a line. So they surfaced not in the 20th century and no Sotheby's did not sell them. So do not. We discouraged you from lying about our falsified chronicles. Have you started writing Persian books now? No, the same thing will happen. You need to learn, and not ridicule everyone to ridicule!
                  4. Bar1
                    Bar1 29 March 2020 08: 10 New
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    You have been written many times that you are a very ignorant person. Do not know a foreign language, not one. And you don’t even know how to use the Internet. You can see on the Internet, where in all the above museums and libraries lists of this ancient work. Who found, who brought, and even how much they paid. Few Russian Wikipedia, there is English, French, German. There are sites of libraries and museums. Everything is there. Finally, there are sites with doctoral and master's theses "there." Including these publications. Research at universities. Monographs, where almost every picture understands and a line. So they surfaced not in the 20th century and no Sotheby's did not sell them. So do not. We discouraged you from lying about our falsified chronicles. Have you started writing Persian books now? No, the same thing will happen. You need to learn, and not ridicule everyone to ridicule!


                    eleventh or eleven started this nonsense. I know the languages, why did you decide that, I don’t know?
                    You know how to use the Internet, so show a manuscript with pictures. In the meantime, all that you wrote here in haste is just words. I will say more-the words of an Internet propagandist.
                  5. kalibr
                    29 March 2020 08: 36 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Bar1
                    eleventh or eleven started this nonsense. I know the languages, why did you decide that, I don’t know?

                    Since you don’t know. But I want to see the "manuscript with pictures" - the Internet is at your service. I already brought you one “picture”. Did you forget? On the branch back - stumble. There are others
                    Quote: Bar1

                    I will say more, the words of the Internet propagandist.
                    Thanks for the compliment.
                  6. kalibr
                    29 March 2020 19: 32 New
                    0
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Languages ​​i know

                    Russian, obscene and drunk, which is obscene and also the essence of Russian! Well, some adverb, judging by the name ... Central Asian, right? Or the Yakut-Zyryansky ... Or maybe you, Timur, are a Tabasaran? I have to guess, sorry, we were not introduced to each other, as required by the rules of decency. But what to expect from the site of anonymous.
                2. Bar1
                  Bar1 29 March 2020 08: 36 New
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  So they surfaced not in the 20th century and no Sotheby's did not sell them


                  A 120-page fragment of one of Jamie at-tawarich’s illustrated manuscripts in Arabic was sold on July 8, 1980 at the Sotheby’s auction by the Royal Asiatic Society to an unknown buyer for £ 850. This was the largest amount ever paid for an Arabic manuscript.


                  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Джами_ат-таварих

                  the slide of a scientific researcher into a banal distributor of false ideas of others is a logical way for any unprincipled person in capitalism.
                3. kalibr
                  29 March 2020 08: 41 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Bar1
                  https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Джами_ат-таварих

                  the slide of a scientific researcher into a banal distributor of false ideas of others is a logical way for any unprincipled person in capitalism.

                  Again. If it didn’t come right away. This was not about that, but WHERE THESE MANUSCRIPTS HAVE TAKEN IN THE NAMED MUSEUMS. Paris, Istanbul, Berlin ... And the fact that there are manuscripts belonging to both individuals and different societies is well known. And by the way, no one buys a fake for that kind of money. A rigorous examination is carried out on dozens of parameters.
                4. Bar1
                  Bar1 29 March 2020 09: 06 New
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  A rigorous examination is carried out on dozens of parameters.

                  just now, after the sale to an unknown person, an examination is no longer possible.
                  Show the Berlin and Paris annals once you talked about them.
                5. kalibr
                  29 March 2020 09: 11 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Bar1
                  just now, after the sale to an unknown person, an examination is no longer possible.
                  Show the Berlin and Paris annals once you talked about them.

                  That is why I am writing to you that you are an ignorant person from a word at all. Any examination of antique goods at Sotheby's is BEFORE SALE. Visit their website and read their rules. And why should I show you something? You know the languages ​​... I went to the site of the National Library of France and forth ... Also with Berlin. They don’t pay me for educating the ignorant. Rejoice that I at least do not refuse to answer you! And by the way, have you already started reading Slater's monographs about heraldry?
                6. Bar1
                  Bar1 29 March 2020 09: 14 New
                  0

                  I have proof of Soviet academics, an article by the historian Mirgaliyev, and you have some words like Berlin and Paris, you have manuscripts.

                  Do you think it's nice to talk with you here? You're wrong...
                7. kalibr
                  29 March 2020 09: 16 New
                  +2
                  And I am pleased with you, imagine. The more clicks you make, the higher the investment attractiveness of the site.
                8. kalibr
                  29 March 2020 19: 25 New
                  0
                  Like, come in, look, read, everything is the same as with Mirgaliev’s article. Do you know languages? Well and go! And as for the Soviet academics ... then many of them were not anywhere else abroad. THREE doctors of sciences worked with me at the department. So two of them did not pedril and neither pedr in English nor a fig. You go to the Osprey website. Are there many of our authors? Yes, but few. There are many academics ... and there are few authors, ha ha. And why - because neither WU comprene, nor sprechin de Deutsch, nor Speak English ...
                  And about Slater’s monograph, how? Are you reading? All clear?
                9. Bar1
                  Bar1 29 March 2020 19: 39 New
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Like, come in, look, read, everything is the same as with Mirgaliev’s article.

                  your communication style "go there does not know where", it won’t.
                  I, unlike you, show everything and provide links.
                10. kalibr
                  29 March 2020 20: 03 New
                  0
                  Of course it won’t work when you don’t know how to use the Internet and don’t even know English. And the second time I ask you: are you reading Slater? And then knowledge of heraldry is clearly not enough for you. And there is just a lot about the crescents and the stars ...
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 15: 13 New
    +7
    De Gennin, Kalmyk (or rather Kalmyk muzzle) called V. Tatishchev! Yes, the very one who wrote the History of the Russian state!
    And given that in his slander he added “I don’t like his Kalmyk face”, then here is an uncovered garden for insinuations on the forums of neophyte historians !!! Dare Timur, with us we’ll save a year and Nasonov and Fomenko will tear their hair from your knowledge !!!
    Today at Discovery a film was shown about the development of marine fishing and trade on the Arabian Peninsula. I advise you to search on the internet, there is a Dow (Dow) and a Turk!
    Good luck!
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 15: 16 New
    +6
    Quote: Bar1
    Bergere, Napoleon’s contemporary, could see Kalmyks with his own eyes

    Have you seen? Where, when, which ones? The finger that you type on the keyboard, give the cut that you saw? laughing
    And here I am and a lot of people have seen and continue to see them personally, communicate with them, live among them. "Do not believe your eyes, believe Bergeret" ... wassat laughing Or will you say that two hundred years ago and before, Kalmyks were Caucasian, and only now everyone has acquired an East Asian appearance, customs and language similar to Mongolian? Incidentally, I have also been to Mongolia, so I can quite compare the Mongols and Kalmyks to myself ...
    Quote: Bar1
    In the Chronicles of Rashid ad Din there are NO engravings

    No. There are drawings. There are several instances of this chronicle - it has been preserved in far from the only copy from those ancient times. There are no fakes, everything is natural, authentic and fits both the style and the technique of execution, and the materials used at that time - the second half of the XIII - XIV centuries. Or do you think that Rashid ad-Din wrote everything by hand, and then only photocopies were taken from his personal copy? Of course, his works were copied (copied) by different scribes, first of all, by contemporaries, while being supplied or not supplied with illustrations. Do you not understand this?
    Quote: Bar1
    One must probably just count the cases when medieval artists could not correctly determine the race of the people described.

    Let us return to the question of the blackness of ancient Rus? You never brought any, I'm not talking about worthy objections to this hypothesis of mine. It turns out, do you agree? laughing
    Quote: Bar1
    not for you, a collaborator here to advise me what to do

    The only thing I agree with. good laughing
    In order to give you advice, there are qualified specialists in the field of psychiatry. The only advice that I can really give you is to consult with one of them, without putting it off in a long box. If it will be an elderly intelligent Jew - consider yourself lucky.
    1. kalibr
      28 March 2020 22: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      If it will be an elderly intelligent Jew - consider yourself lucky.

      It already doesn’t even save him. Only a lobotomy!
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 28 March 2020 06: 26 New
    11
    I started to read not seriously, and got carried away ... interesting.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 06: 36 New
    12
    Prince Dmitry also liked me in the image of Kirillov Sergey Alekseevich (b. 1960) “Dimitri Donskoy”, 2005

    Vyacheslav Olegovich and the respectable company (still expected) good morning!
    According to the Prince’s shield, let's think in a different vein. Is this princely shield?
    Given that traditionally Moscow princes fought “horse and arm” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Market), I doubt that Dmitry could have an infantry shield (with a Western or Byzantine standard). According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval shield of a rider. And here even the Norman teardrop-shaped, and some kind of reduced arbalester float. Here we come to an interesting moment, but could it be a trophy from the Kulikov field? Perhaps the artist was carried away by the Mamaia Genoese infantry? In principle, for a crossbowman a shield, this is a one-time thing. He shot, threw, fled. Only he is too small for a boat.
    The lack of edging along the edge of the shield also bothers me.
    On the contrary, I liked the metal fittings in the form of Y. It will be necessary to rivet something like that.
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 28 March 2020 08: 13 New
      10
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Given that traditionally Moscow princes fought “horse and arm” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Market), I doubt that Dmitry could have an infantry shield (with a Western or Byzantine standard). According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval shield of a rider.

      He waved with someone’s clothes and poper to fight in the front ranks. At least in the literature such a version has a place to be.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 28 March 2020 08: 34 New
        10
        With the boyar Mikhail Brenko. At least from children's books so confidently repeated.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 28 March 2020 08: 38 New
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          With the boyar Mikhail Brenko.

          Yeah, thanks for reminding me.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 11: 37 New
      +5
      Greetings, Vlad. hi
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      According to his status, he was supposed to have a round, in an exceptional case, an oval shield of a rider. And here even the Norman teardrop-shaped, and some kind of reduced arbalester float.

      The shield is generally extremely unfortunate, it is felt that the author did not understand and did not try on this issue. Fantasy.
      The elongated shape of the shield with a narrowed lower edge suggests that this shield is cavalry. The small size is that at least it was used with highly developed armor, that is, about the late Middle Ages. A pronounced humbo - that a fist grip was used for the shield. The lack of a shield finish - that it is squeezed on a knee and probably belongs to some militia, and the warrior depicted in the picture just picked it up. The presence of jewelry in the form of a metal Y-shaped plaque - that this militia was most likely a village blacksmith. The vertical arrangement of the shield boards indicates the stupidity of its manufacturer, for this means that the handle under the umbon is located horizontally across the boards (otherwise how would they be held?), But the blacksmith cannot be a fool. It is possible that such a handle is absent in principle and the shield is simply worn on the arm by means of belt loops, but then what holds the vertical boards together and why do we need a umbona?
      In short, continuous riddles and contradictions ...
      1. rich
        rich 28 March 2020 12: 08 New
        +5
        I wonder why in many modern paintings "Spas" is red. Is this - by analogy with the flag of the USSR.?


        Information about the Kulikovo battle, domestic history mainly draws from four sources - “Tales of the Mamaev Battle”, “Brief Chronicle Tale of the Kulikovo Battle”, “The Wide Chronicles Tale of the Kulikovo Battle” and “Zadonshchina”. So, “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev” directly indicates that “The Savior of Prince Dmitry was embroidered with gold threads on heavy purple Roma fabric by the monks and was attached to the“ silver flagpole with wicked leather belts. ”In“ Zadonshchina ”-“ the prince got up and turned his blue banners. "
        And, it’s not getting into any gates - The current emblem of Moscow is “Gregory the Victorious”

        The first officially documented evidence of the appearance of St. George in Russia refers only to 1497. Then the serpent horseman appeared on the front of the seal of John III.
        Until then, this image was used by Prince of Moscow Vasily the Dark, father of John, in the first half of the XNUMXth century. True, the prince minted the spearman exclusively on Moscow coins, while the horseman with a falcon on his shoulder represented the prince's seal.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 12: 19 New
          +7
          Quote: Rich
          "Spas" is red.

          For some reason, since deep childhood, I was sure that the princely banner on the Kulikovo field was black with gold. However, there were as many banners as there were princes, in any case, no less.
          1. rich
            rich 28 March 2020 13: 03 New
            +6
            Greetings, Michael. hi
            For some reason, since deep childhood, I was sure that the princely banner on the Kulikovo field was black with gold.

            In the Russian icon-painting tradition, there are two types of images of the Savior - Mandilion and Ceramidion. The first on a white background is a special type of Christ’s image, representing His face on the ubrus (board) and the second on a black background, representing His face on the “cranium” (clay board or tile. In temples, Mandilion and Ceramidion were usually depicted in the drum of the dome, opposite each other, hence your childhood associations.
            On the main military standards of Russia, Spas was exclusively on a purple background, in memory of the Battle of Kulikovo. For example, the last main military standard of the Russian Empire, stored in the Hermitage

            The only exception was the Cossack troops of the Republic of Ingushetia. The all-large army of the Don RI had a military banner - "Savior on a white background", Kuban - "Savior on a crimson background", Amur - "Savior on a yellow background", etc.
            Banner with the Savior on a black background is a symbol of the Black Hundreds
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 15: 36 New
              +6
              Yes, welcome, Dmitry. hi
              I think that your knowledge (I am now without irony) is hardly applicable to the fourteenth century, in any case, without evidence of the validity of such extrapolations.
              The fact is that in Russia until the time of the late Ivan III, state symbols were generally in their infancy, disordered and inconsistent. And if one prince went into battle under a certain banner, then it’s not at all a fact that his heirs, whether brothers or sons, went on a military campaign under the same, most likely the other way around. Modern numismatics, sphragistics, vexillology, heraldry simply powerlessly raise their hands when it comes to the period of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, the information they have on this time is so fragmentary and unsystematic. Of course, I mean Russia. Of course, there are some achievements, but no one, no real scientist will tell you under what banner Mikhail Brenko stood on Kulikovo Field.
              The hypothesis voiced by you may well turn out to be true, but with the same probability - false.
              And by the way, what is magenta for you? For me, it is more likely purple than blue and, especially, blue.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Fat
                Fat 28 March 2020 18: 00 New
                +3
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                rather purple than blue, and especially blue.

                Let me complement it.
                Purple, along with cyan, yellow, and black in the CMYK color scheme, is the base color; magenta, when mixed with cyan, gives blue, and yellow with red.
                An additional color to purple is green (antagonists).
                You can translate the name magenta ...
                Magenta (printing)
                Fuchsia (glamorous party)
                Lilac (household Russian)
                Something like this...))))
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 28 March 2020 13: 22 New
          +5
          Quote: Rich
          The first officially documented evidence of the appearance of St. George in Russia refers only to 1497.

          Not really. This horseman became St. George the Victorious under Peter, and before that simply - "Moscow rider". If you do not believe me, look at the halo, or rather its absence.
    3. Fat
      Fat 28 March 2020 22: 06 New
      +3
      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      traditionally, Moscow princes entered the battle “horse and arm” surrounded by boyars and neighbors (Forerunner of the Market),

      Let's clarify ....
      Bell. For the first time the name is found in the Nikon Chronicle in the story of the Battle of Kulikovo under 1380. The bodyguards of the prince.
      Boyars are vassals of the prince and were supposed to serve in the prince's army and be "horse and arm"
      Children (sons) of the boyars received allotments from the boyars and came "horse and arm" to the boyar, from whom they could leave (the estates of the boyars were located very chaotically within the princedom). Boyar children had the right to change overlord.
      And the boyars and boyar children armed the appropriate number of soldiers and the convoy with supplies led with them.
      The princes pledged to "observe" the children of the boyars who lived in their principalities "as their own" ...
      The Ustyuzh arch mentions "2 sons of the boyars, Kostroma, the name of the only Sabur and the name of the other Grigorii Kholpishchev" who found the wounded Dmitry Donskoy. from wiki.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 28 March 2020 07: 21 New
    +9
    Good morning to the most respected meeting! I am writing from work, therefore, so briefly. Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for the article! And immediately the question. And where is the picture of Alexander Bubnov? In my opinion, is one of the best on this subject? hi Your opinion about her is also extremely interesting.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 07: 24 New
      +8
      I join the comment of Sergey!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 28 March 2020 07: 29 New
        +9
        Good morning to you Vlad! To be honest, I’m not enthusiastic about Kiprensky’s picture. Why? Somehow everything looks unnatural. Theatrical! But this is certainly a personal opinion. hi
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 28 March 2020 07: 55 New
          +9
          Sergei! hi
          Somehow everything looks unnatural
          Well, this is the thesis of a graduate of the Academy of Arts, it is worth considering this circumstance.
          But Glazunov really messed up. The figures in the picture are so static and unnatural that even the soldiers from the set “Battle of the Ice”, in terms of dynamics and naturalism, exceed this work by 100%.
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 28 March 2020 08: 07 New
            +6
            I greet you Anton! Excuse me, but it was for this picture that he received a gold medal. But ... I don’t like it. request I guess I didn’t understand something in it. Well? It happens.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 28 March 2020 08: 33 New
              +6
              But ... here I do not like her.
              For God's sake! drinks
              I just wanted to note that the young Kiprensky did not have the opportunity to disagree with the canons of painting contemporary to him and the "technical assignment" of the thesis.
              1. kalibr
                28 March 2020 10: 11 New
                +3
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                I just wanted to note that the young Kiprensky did not have the opportunity to disagree with the canons of painting contemporary to him and the "technical assignment" of the thesis.

                Exactly! The era was such!
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 28 March 2020 10: 07 New
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            But Glazunov really messed up. The figures in the picture are so static and unnatural that even the soldiers from the set “Battle of the Ice”, in terms of dynamics and naturalism, exceed this work by 100%.

            But bloodthirsty knee-deep, in the style: "as if you could steer a horse on a corpse"! lol (I mean the picture with the "Indian").
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 28 March 2020 11: 34 New
            +6
            Greetings, dear friends! hi
            I just wanted to notice about Ilyusha Glazunov. As we said at the MARCH, his drawing style is simple - “hands in pockets, legs in the grass,” because he is unable to depict either one or the other. Well, the rest of the "painting" he has in the same spirit.
            Thanks to Vyacheslav for another interesting analysis. drinks
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 28 March 2020 14: 06 New
              +4
              Glazunov's illustrations for Dostoevsky are quite successful.

              My intuition begins to suggest that we can wait for the analysis of his historical paintings.

              But there is already a question, how does an artist become fashionable?
              And whom the general public knows from conditional contemporaries - Glazunov, Shilov, Konstantin Vasiliev.

              Although the latter has very memorable paintings.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 28 March 2020 14: 15 New
                +6
                Hi, hello! Vasiliev is a separate issue, to depict Zhukov as a vulture, this needs to be managed. As for Glazunov, I accidentally, immediately after serving in the SA, came to his exhibition (1969) in a mansion opposite Pushkinsky. It was organized immediately after the exhibition of his works in France, and the poster was appropriate. So, the portrait of Leo Tolstoy in a frame made of burlap under the name "Russian Man" did not cause anything but bewilderment. Particularly pleased with the scribble in the Review Book: "Thank you for the Russian peasant!". Well, you understand who liked this daub. And he became fashionable immediately after this exhibition, with a certain part of the population, of course. drinks hi
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 28 March 2020 20: 21 New
                +3
                Quote: Korsar4
                Vasiliev.

                Although the latter has very memorable paintings.

                From his canvases, frankly, such a cold blows! Yes, and it becomes creepy. Although he was a strong artist, in terms of skill.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 28 March 2020 20: 26 New
                  +3
                  "A man with an owl" is a separate World. It turned out almost by accident at his exhibition in the Lenin Hills.
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 28 March 2020 20: 28 New
                    +3
                    Sergey! You know, in my opinion, a separate world in his paintings is the EYES of the heroes of his paintings.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 28 March 2020 20: 38 New
                      +3
                      Probably the eyes are almost everywhere significant. For example, as in today’s picture of Pavel Ryzhenko hooked on.

                      The question is, probably, how close-up the picture should be in order for this to manifest itself.

                      But at the same time, I do not want to disassemble the miracle of paintings into molecules.
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 28 March 2020 20: 58 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Korsar4
                        For example, as in today’s picture of Pavel Ryzhenko hooked on.

                        A very strong artist. Was it to leave at age 44? Sadly.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 March 2020 21: 02 New
                        +4
                        To my shame, I have not heard even to this day. Although in the area of ​​Ugra and Zhizdra regularly visit.
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 28 March 2020 21: 05 New
                        +2
                        Pavel Dmitrievich Ryzhenko. Died in July 2014, 16, stroke.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 28 March 2020 12: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        But Glazunov really messed up.

        "Nakosyachil" - his second last name, it is necessary to write through a hyphen, in any case, on the signatures to his historical canvases. smile
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 08: 05 New
      11
      I agree, Cupids are not enough!
      I liked the work of Vavilov and Raksha! Although it makes sense to watch them on your smartphone’s screen unambiguously. By the word “epic,” the battle on the Kulikovsky field does not annoy me, like the Battle of Ice, the battle on the Niva, even the capture of Kazan, and much more. In the public consciousness there should be tablets (report points) that form the self-identification of our Fatherland !!!
      Only they should be believable, without Valkyries, cupids and .....
      Good day!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 28 March 2020 08: 26 New
        +8
        Undoubtedly battle scenes in Game of Thrones are more realistic laughing
        But, "each time has its own orders, each felt boot has its own style"
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 29 March 2020 01: 54 New
          +4
          Undoubtedly battle scenes in Game of Thrones are more realistic

          not at all! stop With their hmm .. very strange tactics .. no one could win the final battle with the zombies! Shoot the consultants! am and crumpled ending! angry drinks
          Well .. but there are relatively strong points. wink
          "Now nothing matters .. only we ..."
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 29 March 2020 07: 13 New
            +3
            Shoot the consultants!
            Undoubtedly! There are so many of them, consultants on the tactics of confronting the army of the dead. laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 29 March 2020 18: 01 New
              +5
              There are so many of them, consultants on the tactics of confronting the army of the dead.

              no one would have launched a wild cavalry into an attack on a larger enemy, and infantry from eunuchs had to at least be rebuilt with a phalanx. Moreover, no one appointed separate crews for the catapults, and, finally, a single commander. To build ANY troops before the battle could only be frank ... I will not talk about intelligence! negative They would lose. hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 29 March 2020 21: 44 New
                +2
                Nikolay! hi
                I think you should not judge the series as a whole by watching one season. I saw the first three and I can evaluate it as a worthy textbook application in the Middle Ages.
    3. Korsar4
      Korsar4 28 March 2020 08: 37 New
      +5
      The style of the time. But in this case, I agree. Not perceived.

      (PS Here I began to argue - a wretched art critic, with a pork snout, but in a high profile).
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 28 March 2020 09: 12 New
        +7

        (PS Here I began to argue - a wretched art critic, with a pork snout, but in a high profile).

        That's just this flagellanism is not necessary !!! Here every second in the Hermitage and the Tretyakov Gallery serves straight! From Piotrovsky and Lotman - do not push around! laughing
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 March 2020 09: 21 New
          +6
          What else to do at home? Now I will choose a suitable whip.
          Just during the plague, their activity increased. Only in rows and columns is it better to organize.


          Only sometimes it turns out that "the great combinator played chess for the second time in his life" (c).
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 28 March 2020 20: 54 New
            +4
            Just in time for the plague
            I have already come to understand that modern humanity is unable to survive the infection, at least 10 times less virulent from plague pneumonia.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 28 March 2020 20: 59 New
              +5
              Probably, the exponential growth of the Earth’s population will someday be about to reach a plateau. It remains to find out the details, and the price of this.

              Not enough information. But there are more and more clicks.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 28 March 2020 21: 07 New
                +3
                Not enough information. But there are more and more clicks.
                It is absurd, but true. Namely, in connection with the overabundance of the former, the latter flourishes.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 28 March 2020 21: 16 New
                  +4
                  Not that return to quotes, but strictly according to Tertullian: "I believe, because it is absurd."
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 28 March 2020 21: 37 New
                    +6
                    When an individual declares this, he is proud of being a member of society. When a society declares this, one should be ashamed of belonging to it.
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 28 March 2020 21: 45 New
                    +4
                    Very worthy wording.
                  3. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 28 March 2020 21: 48 New
                    +4
                    Thank! I noticed that lately, I became inclined to similar aphorisms. Apparently getting old.
                  4. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 28 March 2020 22: 08 New
                    +4
                    When one philosopher (by profession) expressed something similar, he said that he didn’t: you were getting wiser.

                    It was necessary to quote Toro almost immediately out of harm, that now there are professors of philosophy, but no philosophers.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 28 March 2020 09: 56 New
    +8
    Here every second in the Hermitage and the Tretyakov Gallery serves straight! From Piotrovsky and Lotman - do not push around!
    ,,,there are a lot of us laughing how to bask ,, conduct an examination without getting up off the couch ,,.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 28 March 2020 10: 34 New
      +9
      "We have any second in Turkmenistan -
      Ayatollah, and even Khomeini "(c).
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 28 March 2020 15: 54 New
      +5
      Well, to answer the question: like-dislike, everyone is capable. As well as have their own opinions. what hi
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 29 March 2020 01: 40 New
    +3
    Sergey, I’ll cleave sideways, okay? drinks He arrived late, he just visited the site! recourse
    when one of the ancestors of this ... a hungry man could capture such a helmet

    Vyacheslav Olegovich clearly wanted to say - "naked asshole" or "tattered naked ass." Joke. laughing
    then from the picture of Kiprensky

    Attracted a surname. Who is Kiprensky? The son of a landowner and a peasant woman, issued by him (after the discovery of pregnancy) for his own serf Adam Schwalbe (an interesting serf, right?). And the thing is that the thing is happening in the vicinity of Koporye - an ancient fortress founded by a detachment of German knights. The stone fortress, which is the only one in Russia that has preserved the lifting grate - Herce, which collapsed two to three weeks ago (Leonid the Ranger enlightened me). I think that the majority of the population there were Lutheran confessions, so the name of the "stepfather inevitably" should not inspire questions. request
    Kiprensky took the surname from the grass of fireweed. We know her like ivan tea. And what is the name of this plant? "Ivan tea Koporskiy." In fact, we have a drink named after the stone fortress, which is now located in the very ass of the world in the Leningrad region on a broken-down highway. But about the grass and the drink - this is to Sergey-Korsar4! drinks
  • kalibr
    28 March 2020 08: 26 New
    +7
    Sergei! And about Bubnov there was already. And I wrote that it’s hard to believe that the somehow depicted armed rabble defeated the Mamaians. And this is when we know that the troops went to the battle from Moscow “in the Russian way”, “like in the ice”, that is, shining with metal. When he wrote it required "nationality", "impulse", in a word a typical picture of the era of the mobilization economy. That is, he may have written people well, I won’t argue. But this has only a small relation to history. Yes, and the spears of the soldiers of the first row are short for the ridiculous.
  • svp67
    svp67 28 March 2020 07: 37 New
    13
    Ryzhenko Pavel Viktorovich
    I went to the exhibition of his paintings and really, really liked it, my impressions are only positive. By the way, he has several paintings dedicated to those times and there is something to see and think about.

    Look, a fragment of the picture "Silence", how the conversation of Prince Dmitry of Moscow, the future Donskoy, with Sergey Radonezhsky and the guard who guards them, as he was discharged, and the kid next to him ...
    Relight in prayer. The Bryansk boyar, who had gone to monks, did he think then that his name would live forever, for the sake of this he went to the last battle? Of course not, but he went to fulfill his duty to people and his native land and God. We, in the current situation, should not forget about such people and equalize their actions with them ..

    Peresvet, after a collision with Chelubey, the Chelubeev spear pierced him through, he is already practically dead, but remained in the saddle and rides to his ...
    After the battle, "Standing on the Bones," there is no need to explain ... In my opinion, only Vereshchagin painted such paintings ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 08: 11 New
      +7
      According to the first illustration, I initially thought that this was a screen of a computer game.
      A hero for the Moscow principality of the era of the era of Dmitry Donskoy - is unreal!
      Shield, helmet with visor, armor. The ax is clearly not fighting, without a beard. But for the soul work catches, definitely !!!
      hi
      1. svp67
        svp67 28 March 2020 09: 21 New
        +4
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        A hero for the Moscow principality of the era of the era of Dmitry Donskoy - is unreal!

        For the prince's squad, more than real.
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Shield, helmet with visor, armor.
        A helmet like this ...

        And in general, quite normal equipment for an equestrian warrior, except for swords, behind ...
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 10: 53 New
          +6
          You give an increase in a completely different picture!
          Upper: helmet with a mask and plume - lower: Iranian type with a barmini.
          Upper: the hero has a bib - no.
          Ax - a sword painted on.
          Regards, Kote!
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 28 March 2020 21: 15 New
            +4
            By the way, yes! I also noticed! In the bottom picture of the hero on the helmet there is no plume and ... there is a black chicken to his right, on the top there isn’t, but there is plume. hi
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 28 March 2020 10: 36 New
        +4
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Shield, helmet with visor, armor. The ax is clearly not fighting, without a beard.

        Greetings, Vladislav! As for the helmet with a visor I do not agree. The warrior clearly has a helmet with a half mask, the lower part of his face is covered with a barmitza, therefore without a beard.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 10: 45 New
          +6
          I looked from the phone. It seemed to me that a helmet with an all-metal mask. With an increase, yes a half mask with a burgundy.
          Shita with a beveled top, not seen. Mostly Norman teardrop-shaped.
          The figure above and the illustration are not authentic; these are two different heroes.
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 28 March 2020 11: 00 New
            +4
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Shita with a beveled top, not seen. Mostly Norman teardrop-shaped.

            There, logically, based on a helmet with a half mask, there should be an almond-shaped shield, something to cover the lower part of the face. Because, with an equestrian collision, getting a spear in your mouth, covered only with a barmitza, can end not only with the need for a visit to the dentist.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 11: 05 New
              +4
              I do not argue! For similar purposes, riders used round and oval shields,
  • Boris55
    Boris55 28 March 2020 07: 49 New
    -1
    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    we will be interested not in the idea embedded in these paintings, but in the image of weapons and armor.

    Well, children's ideas about the beautiful, broke on a rock of realism. laughing

    ... In the taverns - a green damask,
    White napkins.
    Paradise for beggars and buffoons
    Well - like a bird in a cage!
    There is stench and twilight in the church
    The clerks smoke incense.
    No! And in the church it's not like that
    Everything is not as it should ...
  • AK1972
    AK1972 28 March 2020 07: 59 New
    +4
    Personally, I would change only the drawing on the shield of the Tatar warrior.
    And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord. I liked the article very much, like the previous articles in the series. Thank you very much to Vyacheslav Olegovich.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 11: 12 New
      +7
      Quote: AK1972
      Personally, I would change only the drawing on the shield of the Tatar warrior.
      And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord. I liked the article very much, like the previous articles in the series. Thank you very much to Vyacheslav Olegovich.

      Are you the brothers of the Templar Order or the Livonian Order! Someone who, and based on their armor, they certainly did not believe in God! smile
      1. AK1972
        AK1972 28 March 2020 12: 31 New
        +1
        I had in mind Russian, Orthodox monks, Vladislav. Sergey’s commentary (svp67) shows two paintings by Ryzhenko, in which Peresvet without armor and these paintings are 100% historical.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 March 2020 14: 10 New
          +3
          The canvas, where Peresvet at prayer makes a very strong impression.
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 28 March 2020 19: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: AK1972
          Relight without armor and these paintings are 100% historical.

          This is why 100%? Maybe there was no Relight at all.
      2. kalibr
        28 March 2020 12: 51 New
        +3
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Are you the brothers of the Templar Order or the Livonian Order! Someone who, and based on their armor, they certainly did not believe in God!

        And why, Vladislav?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 13: 41 New
          +6
          Vyacheslav Olegovich !!! And you are on this rake .... good
          I am Kote Panet Kohanka, the name is Vladislav, the cat is Sonya, I live in the Urals, my old nickname is Kotische.
          Not me - Pan Kokhanka, name Nikolay, lives in St. Petersburg, Mikado cat, old nickname: Mikado!
          Sincerely, Your Vlad!
          R.s. It’s necessary to have a mouse in Pan’s cellar so that the adversaries have a brain rupture.
          Hand mouse Kote Pan Kohanka !!!! And what sounds .. drinks
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 28 March 2020 13: 57 New
            +3
            "And this is a funny bird Tit,
            Who often steals wheat,
            Which is stored in a dark closet,
            In the house that Kote built "(almost (s).
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 14: 54 New
              +6
              Quote: Korsar4
              "And this is a funny bird Tit,
              Who often steals wheat,
              Which is stored in a dark closet,
              In the house that Kote built "(almost (s).

              To be honest, the house was built by Nikolai (Pan Kokhanka), and I so stumbled into his cellar! Closer to the wings with milk and sour cream, and the rats are not far away. repeat
          2. kalibr
            28 March 2020 15: 05 New
            +6
            Damn you, with these changes. My memory is full to the limit!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 March 2020 15: 17 New
              +6
              And we are not offended by you! This is me and the milk caps in the cellar !!!
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 28 March 2020 19: 42 New
              +5
              Focus on me, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Always clarify "who, where, why" laughing
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 28 March 2020 19: 50 New
                +4
                "I want to know in detail:
                Who, kudy, faq and how! "(C).
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 28 March 2020 19: 56 New
                  +3
                  Sergei hi I admit, I’m not ready for the new tournament. Courage is dumb .... request
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 28 March 2020 19: 59 New
                    +3
                    This is not a stream from which you can have a good use.
                    Just peaceful associations.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 28 March 2020 20: 05 New
                      +4
                      Of course. But playing, even in the "mother-daughter", it always makes sense to surrender to the game to the end and put on a "zero." Otherwise, what's the point of playing?
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 March 2020 20: 08 New
                        +4
                        Yes. I agree. Once I sent a previous message, I realized that it can be interpreted in two ways.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 28 March 2020 20: 20 New
                        +3
                        I often ignore your tricks on the game, sorry! Now I have explained.
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 29 March 2020 02: 11 New
              +4
              "who, where, why"

              when, komuuuuuu! (Professor, Vampire Ball)
              Professor? belay
              "Any suspicions I immediately check,
              I make up my mind and find out the truth.
              I tried to analyze the world from the cradle!
              Toys dissected, going towards a great goal -
              Since childhood! "
              laughing
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 28 March 2020 18: 32 New
          +5
          Something I did not understand this turbulent agitation request
  • Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 28 March 2020 14: 16 New
    +5
    “And I would take off the armor from Peresvet and put it on a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord”

    Peresvet was not an experienced fighter suicide, and it is unlikely that such a fight would have come without armor.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 29 March 2020 02: 07 New
    +2
    and would dress him in a cassock, because he was a monk, and the monks did not wear armor, being directly under the protection of the Lord.

    Reminded:
    The Holy Father brought the word of God into darkness,
    And eternal life promises me miracles ...

    "Aria". With respect, Nicholai drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 28 March 2020 08: 08 New
    +5
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I will throw another idea for the article: consideration of sets of game military miniatures, from the point of view of historicity.
    1. kalibr
      28 March 2020 08: 16 New
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I will throw another idea for the article: consideration of sets of game military miniatures, from the point of view of historicity.

      Yes, it is interesting. But I don’t know yet how to tackle this.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 28 March 2020 08: 19 New
        +3
        Perhaps you should consult with Vashchenko. Judging by several materials, Edward understands the topic.
        1. kalibr
          28 March 2020 08: 29 New
          +3
          Maybe he should write to him? Articles about the sets of soldiers he had were great!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 28 March 2020 09: 01 New
            +3
            Three points:
            1. I do not know how interesting this is to him.
            2. Edward writes here "for his pleasure", and is not bound by the contract, in contrast ...
            3. My little selfish interest. I am impressed, from time to time, to serve as a source of inspiration for your creativity.
            1. kalibr
              28 March 2020 10: 07 New
              +3
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              3. My little selfish interest.

              "Many hands do better!" - old English proverb
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 28 March 2020 08: 40 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        Yes, it is interesting.

        This is interesting for professionals. Realism in the paintings should be but not "photographic", but it looks like an attempt to vulgarize everything and everything ....

        I'm afraid to even present a dialogue next to some kind of picture of an archaeologist and pathologist. laughing

  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 28 March 2020 08: 30 New
    +7
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    But really the picture of Avilov stands out among others. Either due to the fact that it was repeated so many times, and was consumed in consciousness. Or just very successful.

    But with Glazunov, “The Reconstitution Fight” really makes you ask questions.
  • BAI
    BAI 28 March 2020 09: 59 New
    +5
    With the Battle of Kulikovo, a lot is not clear.
    Here is the referred Peresvet (and Oslyabya). Where did the monks get pagan names? Here is Sergius of Radonezh. Everyone knows - Sergius. And in the world - Bartholomew, but under this name he is almost unknown. And the names of the above monks have not changed?
    By the way, about the blessing of Sergius. But was it? Sergius at that time was in a quarrel with Dmitry and refused to baptize some of his relative.
    Well, they already said about Bubnov.
    1. kalibr
      28 March 2020 10: 06 New
      +2
      Totally agree with you...
      1. BAI
        BAI 28 March 2020 10: 11 New
        +4
        By the way, there are a lot of pictures. Even in the volume of the article could be more (desirable). Here is another analogue of how the article began.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 28 March 2020 10: 57 New
      +4
      Why pagan? Alexander Peresvet and Rodion Oslyabya, monk Andrew.

      I do not see any particular contradictions.
      1. BAI
        BAI 28 March 2020 14: 57 New
        +2
        Based on the fact that these are surnames, then it is even more interesting. Monks have no surnames. From the word "in general". If there is a surname, then these were civilians, not monks. "Radonezh", "Kronstadt" are not surnames.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 March 2020 15: 19 New
          +3
          Not about surnames. Life begins: "Alexander Radonezh, in the world Relight".
  • Undecim
    Undecim 28 March 2020 18: 37 New
    +5
    In any case, we will not be interested in the idea embodied in these paintings, but in the image of weapons and armor.
    Based on this criterion, it was better to start not from Kiprensky, but Sazonov. He obviously has more preliminaries.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 28 March 2020 19: 10 New
      +3
      And among contemporary artists in terms of the Battle of Kulikovo and the image of armor, Victor Matorin, by the way, yours, Vyacheslav Olegovich, a fellow countryman, a graduate of the Penza Art School, provides extensive discussion food.

      Dmitry Donskoy.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 28 March 2020 19: 12 New
        +6

        And this is his opponent - Mamai.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 28 March 2020 19: 28 New
          +4
          Viktor Nikolayevich, hello! Do you know who posed to Matorina when creating the portrait of Mamai? Head of the security of the Mongolian embassy! The artist himself spoke about this in an interview. He looked for a character for the painting and turned to the Mongolian embassy, ​​so he chose this gentleman. hi
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 28 March 2020 19: 34 New
            +3
            Given that the intravital portraits of Mamai have not been preserved, we will consider the choice a good one.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 28 March 2020 19: 36 New
        +2
        Quote: Undecim
        Dmitry Donskoy.

        We also have a monument to Donskoy.

        Only, what’s the matter, there was originally a monument in the form of a head, and we dried it on a coward when we bathed in a fire reservoir. crying
      3. kalibr
        28 March 2020 19: 58 New
        +2
        The fellow countryman is not a fellow countryman, but his picture The Battle of the Ice I don't like!
      4. Marine engineer
        Marine engineer 28 March 2020 20: 55 New
        +3
        “From contemporary artists in terms of the Battle of Kulikovo and the image of armor, Victor Matorin provides extensive food for discussion,”

        Dmitry Ivanovich at the time of the Battle of Kulikovo was 30 years old, why Matorin paints him with an old man is not clear.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 28 March 2020 18: 48 New
    +6
    It got to the point that Valentin Serov, for example, who was ordered the "Battle ...", did not write it and even returned the money issued for it. And all because he did not agree with the customers in their views.
    After Serov, Malyutin suffered the same fate. After him, Korovin turned out to be just as incapacitated.
    And the reason is that the consultant was Ivan Egorovich Zabelin, a well-known Russian historian and archaeologist, the initiator of the creation and comrade of the chairman of the Imperial Russian Historical Museum named after Emperor Alexander III, for whom he commissioned a painting and who, as a specialist, put forward so many requirements in terms of historical authenticity and artistic expressiveness that no one took up the picture and the place under it remained empty until 1950, until some neutral landscape was placed there.
  • Fishery
    Fishery 30 March 2020 12: 39 New
    -1
    the mace in Kirillov’s picture is still controversial)) the top is yes, he himself saw these alive, and the hilt looks metal, there are questions.