Military Review

Sources and History: Russian Chronicles

245

Front annalistic vault. Chronograph. It belongs to the second half of the XVI century. Created in Moscow. Materials: paper, ink, cinnabar, tempera; binding - leather 44,2x31,5; Entered in 1827. The manuscript is part of the personal annalistic vault, which was created by order of Tsar Ivan the Terrible in the second half of the XVI century. For a long time he was in the royal book depository, and in 1683 he was transferred to the Workshop and was soon divided into parts, each of which had its own destiny. Information about the Facial Chronograph can be traced in the catalogs of the Printing House library (1727 and around 1775). In 1786, the same volume appeared in the inventory of books of the Printing House, intended for transfer to the Synodal Library. At the beginning of the XIX century, the volume belonged to the Greek nobleman Zoya Pavlovich Zosima, a major businessman and philanthropist. MFN inv. OSRK. F. IV.151


But you know yourself: senseless mob
Changeable, rebellious, superstitious,
Easily empty hope betrayed,
Instantly obedient ...
A.S. Pushkin. Boris Godunov.

“On a slippery porch, the number of cultured people is drastically reduced!”
Penza newspaper. "Our town".


Historical science against pseudoscience. Recently, more and more materials have begun to appear, which, to put it mildly, not only cast doubt on entire eras of modern history, but simply turn them upside down. And if you doubt the historical realities, it can and should be, then all kinds of “coups” there require a very serious foundation. Nothing can be solved here with a cavalry charge. Therefore, it is probably worthwhile to first introduce the readers of VO to the foundation on which the building of Russian history is built, so that on this basis visitors to our site who are interested in this topic can discuss the essence of the issue with greater confidence based on knowledge , and not fantasies drawn from nowhere.

Let's start with the annals, since these written sources contain the bulk of information about our past, which no artifacts can replace. So, what exactly are these very annals, how many of them and what are they? And then, after all, some of those who write a little about this here are talking about two or three (!) Documents, and in addition also falsified ones.

So, chronicles are works of the XI-XVIII centuries, telling about the events that took place in a given year, that is, according to the "years". Chronicles were kept in Kievan Rus, and in many lands and principalities adjacent to it, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and then the Russian state. They can be compared with the Western European annals and chronicles both in character and style of presentation, and in their content.

The annals were kept over the years. Hence its “weather character”, by virtue of which they usually began with the words: “It's summer ...” (“In a year ...”), which gave the annals their name. The number of chronicle documents preserved to our time is very large and amounts to about 5000 units! This, by the way, is information for those who write that the annals were burned under Peter the Great. Burned? Burned, burned, and ... 5000 volumes still remain? There wasn’t enough firewood, or the "firefighters" sold them to the side, but they themselves went to the pub to go on a mash ?! So under Peter it was strict! For failure to fulfill the tsar’s decree, they broke their nostrils, beat them with a whip and drove them into the wild Dauria ...

Here it is necessary to interrupt a little and, as the adherents of the "folk history" like to say, turn on the logic. Imagine for a moment that the same German historians, “whom Lomonosov beat the faces of”, gathered all these annals together and decided to fake them. Let us recall how many of them there were, that they did not speak Russian well - and what happens? From 1724 to 1765 (the year of Lomonosov’s death), we had ... 14 people. And not all of them were historians. And now we divide 5000 by 14 (let alone) and get 357 for each. Imagine the amount of rewriting - based on what has come down to us and get ... a year of hard labor on each tome. But they also did other things, went to balls, wrote slander at Lomonosov, and when they were lying drunk, it was not without it, there was such a time. But still a bit too much, isn't it? They and three lives would not be enough to rewrite all this!

True, later the Germans came in large numbers. And by 1839 they became ... 34 (all on the list), although it is clear that those former ones have already died, but somehow they managed to ... "rewrite". And these continued, right? But even in this case, 147 chronicles per brother is already too much! And after all, they could not entrust anyone to this tricky business. The Russian is drunk, that on the mind, then in the language. Someone would have blabbed it. And not one! And then the patriots wouldn’t be slow to bring where they should say - “The word and deed of the sovereign!” they would have shouted right there, and there and the dungeon, and the whips, and the rack, all the secret intention would have been revealed at once. After all, the fewer strangers, the more get their own. So Lomonosov certainly thought. No wonder each empress wrote odes of praise for the uprising. I understood the rules of the game! He knew how to flatter ...

And again, the point was not just to rewrite them, but also to distort Russia to the detriment, and this required considerable knowledge and imagination, and a general work plan for hundreds of years in advance. There is one more important question: why should they be rewritten at all or something changed in them? People with the psychology of that time, despised by most Russians. Change their story? What for? Are we changing the history of the Papuans? “Enough of the fact that we bring them our European culture!” That's all that Miller, Schlötzer and others could think of at that time, and ... nothing more. So, what we have before us is a typical "conspiracy theory", that is, another stupidity, no more.

Sources and History: Russian Chronicles

Academic list of the Novgorod First Annals, 1440s, the beginning of the text of Russian Truth. Grekov B.D. True Russian. T. III. 1963. Forgery of old documents is also complicated by their handwritten character. At the same time, Lomonosov was still written with goose feathers, but ... such a font as the charter and half-mouth was no longer used. It’s very difficult to write with them, and you won’t write many pages in a day - your hand will fall off. There was nowhere for the chroniclers to rush, but then they had to hurry ...

By the way, here is a good example of how to know the language in order to achieve the goal. In 1944, during the offensive in the Ardennes, groups of saboteurs dressed in the military uniform of the Allies and who knew English were operating in front of the German troops. What did they fall for and why did this operation fail? At a military gas station, one of them, introducing himself to the Americans, asked for a petroleum, although he had to ask for a hydroelectric power station. And he used the right word, but ... did not know that the Yankees did not say that. And here are the annals full of Church Slavonic and Old Russian words and dialectisms! They really could not learn the Russian language, but they mastered Old Russian perfectly ?! With all its semantic subtleties, knowledge of ancient history (which no one already knew!), In a word, to assume such a thing is complete nonsense or special fabrication, designed for people who are deeply ignorant or with a defective psyche. However, we, as well as everywhere, in other countries, always had a lot of those and others! Pushkin wrote his immortal lines (see the epigraph) for good reason, oh no wonder!

But this is a quantitative indicator. And in the future we will turn to the substantive side of the issue of “rewriting”, but for now, we note that most of the annals in their original form have not reached us. But their copies are known - the so-called "lists" (from the word write off), made later, already in the XIII – XIX centuries. The oldest chronicles of the 1796th – 1876th centuries are known precisely in the lists. The latter are classified by scientists by type (that is, by the editorial board) - of the habits. Often in the texts of the annals there are compounds from several sources, which suggests that the surviving annals are nothing more than collections of various sources from which the earliest have not been preserved. This idea was first expressed by P. M. Stroyev (XNUMX), a Russian historian, a full member of the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences, and today this is the generally accepted opinion of historians. That is, most chronicles are codes of pre-existing texts, and that is how they should be treated.

Chronicle texts are of three main types. These are synchronous records by years, "chronicles" of a retrospective nature, that is, stories about past events, and annals.

The most ancient manuscript texts of the annals are considered the parchment "Chronicle soon Patriarch Nicephorus" (the last quarter of the XIII century), then comes the Synodal list of the Novgorod first annals of the elder (related to the second half of the XIII century, and then to the second quarter of the XIV century), the so-called Lavrentievsky chronicle (1377) and somewhat later Ipatiev Chronicle (1420s).


2nd Pskov Chronicle. A facsimile copy of the first sheet of the Synodal List, dating from the late 6362th century. The entry of the Pskov chronicler and a fragment of the "Initial Chronicle" - the summer of 1480 from the creation of the world, the foundation of Kiev. Synodal list of the Pskov Second Annals, mid-5s - PSRL, Vol.XNUMX

Chronicles contain enormous material. These are historical facts, and examples from the biblical, as well as ancient history and the history of the Byzantine Empire, the “life” of the “story”, “words”, as well as hagiographic texts, legends, messages, and even texts of documents. In particular, these are international treaties and various legal acts. Literary works were also very often used in chronicles, replacing historical sources. So among them we know: “The teachings of Vladimir Monomakh”, “The Legend of the Battle of Mamaev”, “Walking the Three Seas” by the merchant Afanasy Nikitin and others. It is clear that the views of the chroniclers had nothing to do with our current outlook on things. They contain very little information about relations of an economic nature, but much attention is paid to the acts of princes and kings, as well as their surroundings, the activities of church hierarchs, and, of course, wars. About ordinary people, in fact, there is nothing. The people in the annals are usually "silent."


Laurentian Chronicle, turnover of the 81st sheet. Part of the teachings of Vladimir Monomakh with a description of his military campaigns. Site of the Russian National Library

Interestingly, in the majority of Russian chronicles known to us, their names are conditional, and do not correspond to their own names. Why did this happen? Well, of course, not because of the intrigues of some mythical conspirators, but in the early period of their study, when the names were given to them depending on their origin, places of storage, and even belonging to some person. The numbering in the name of some annals is also conditional. For example, Novgorod first - fifth, Sofia first and second, Pskov first - third. It has nothing to do with the time of their writing, alas, this is so, but exclusively with the order of publication or other relevant circumstances. But if you think about it, then with 5000 documents there simply couldn’t be any other way. Putting all these tonny documents into scientific circulation is a real feat of service to science, which, by the way, is still ongoing.

Another interesting fact that characterizes the Russian annals is their anonymity. Chroniclers very rarely entered any information about themselves in the text, and if personalized liberties allowed, it was only to emphasize that they are simple people, not books, that is ... “they will transmit everything without embellishment. Everything is as it is! ” On the other hand, compilers of chronicles often refer to themselves as a source of information: “I saw and heard and heard”, or familiar “samovidtsy” who happened to see “the regiment of God in the air”, and various other similar this is miracles.

Interestingly, most modern scholars associate the goals of writing chronicles with ... the struggle for power. Indeed, because of their uniqueness, they could not have any effect on society. But it was a document that princes could read and thereby receive an informational advantage over those who ... did not read them! In particular, M. D. Priselkov wrote about this, and D. S. Likhachev, V. G. Mirzoev and A. F. Kilunov, in turn, wrote that the Russian chronicles had educational tasks, that this was a kind of journalism, framed in the form of a historical work. But weather records contradict this view, so there is an opinion that the chronicle could also have the function of a legal document, since it fixed those legal precedents that were then referred to, yes, representatives of the ruling dynasty. That is, they were then guided not so much only by the present, but also by the future.

But I. N. Danilevsky believed that since the second half of the XI century, chronicles have acquired the function of “books of life”, and should have appeared at the Last Judgment as the “evidence” of the righteousness or unrighteousness of those in power. True, indirectly, this is indicated by messages about signs, that is, spontaneous phenomena by which God expresses his approval or condemnation of events. In any case, since literacy was the destiny of a few, the written word was much more important than oral not only in everyday life, but also before God. Hence, by the way, and the plurality of chronicles. Many rulers sought to have their own annals in order to ... "justify them" at God's judgment.

It is very important to emphasize that all the annals of the Old Russian period are based on the Old Russian exodus of the Church Slavonic language, including, however, many borrowings from the Old Russian spoken language and business. In this he differs from purely religious texts. But besides these two stylistic features in the annals, there are significant dialectical differences. That is, the characteristic linguistic features in vocabulary, phonetics, indicate to us the region of writing certain chronicles. Grammar and syntax are more difficult to localize, but, nevertheless, these features of speech are fixed and help in the attribution of compositions. But the Belarusian-Lithuanian annals are written in West Russian written language, which also needed to be known, but which was little known in the central regions of Russia.

And now in the light of these facts, let us once again return to the ill-fated Germans, a falsifier, who "rewrote" all our annals. It turns out that the Germans who spoke Lomonosov’s language poorly, in fact, knew the semantics and morphology of the Old Russian and Church Slavonic languages ​​to the finer points, and besides, all the local dialectisms. This is already beyond the bounds of common sense in general, and speaks of the complete ignorance of those who assert this.


Chronicle collection, called the Patriarch or Nikon Chronicle. PSRL. T. 9

How was the creation of ancient Russian chronicles considered A. A. Shakhmatov. According to him, in the beginning there was an Ancient Arch, which was compiled somewhere around 1039 in Kiev. Then in 1073 it was continued and supplemented by the hieromonk of the Kiev Pechersk Monastery Nikon Pechersky. On its basis, the Initial Code appeared with the alleged original name - “The Timenik, the annals of the Rus princes and the land of Rus ...” were already outlined, and only then the “Tale of Bygone Years” was written, supplemented by excerpts from the Byzantine chronicles and Russian-Byzantine treaties. Well, the very first edition of The Tale ... by the authorship of the monk of the Kiev-Pechersky Monastery Nestor appeared around 1113. It was followed by the Sylvester or Second Edition, which fell into the Laurentian Chronicle. In 1118, the Third Edition appeared, preserved in the Ipatiev Chronicle. Well, and then where only excerpts from these annals were not inserted.

It is believed that initially the weather records were very short - "In the summer ... do not speed anything." And they lacked any complex narrative constructions. But over time, they were supplemented and changed for the better. For example, in the story about the Battle of the Ice of Novgorod 1st annals of the younger exodus, a change was made in comparison with the story of Novgorod 1st annals of the older exodus, the number of Germans killed was "500", and before that it was "400"! Well, the explicit work of Miller and other German historians, aimed at diminishing our glorious history!

As noted here, there are many chronicles. For example, there are many local chronicles of the XII-XIV centuries, containing ... events in a wide variety of small principalities and individual lands. The largest centers of annals were Novgorod, Pskov, as well as Rostov, Tver and Moscow. The birth and death of princes, the election of posadniks and the thousand, battles and campaigns, church regulations and the deaths of bishops, hegumen, the construction of churches and monasteries, wickedness, pestilence, amazing natural phenomena - all fell into these lists.

Now let's take a closer look at the chronicle material of individual regions. Let's start with the Kiev and Galician-Volyn chronicles. In Kiev, the monks were kept by the monks of the Pechersk and Vydubitsky monasteries, and at the court of the ruling prince.

It was in the Vydubetsk Monastery that the Kiev Chronicle was also written, which dates from 1198. According to historian V.T. Pashuto, the Kiev annals continued until 1238.

In Galich and Vladimir-Volynsky, annals were kept from the 1198th century on in the courtyards of princes and the local episcopate. In XNUMX they were combined with the Kiev Chronicle. They are also known in the Ipatiev Chronicle.


One of the annals of the neighboring principalities. "Chronicle of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Zhomoitsky", the first half of the XVI century. Vilnius University Library

The earliest Novgorod chronicle was created between 1039 and 1042 and, possibly, these were extracts from the Ancient Codex. Then, around 1093, the Novgorod Code was compiled, based on earlier texts. Then new additions followed, and so the "Codex of Vsevolod" appeared. The annals were also carried out at the Novgorod Archbishop's (Vladyka) department) almost without interruptions until the 1430s, which led to the appearance of the Novgorod Vladyka Annals, on the basis of which the text of the Novgorod First Annals was compiled, which is known to us in two editions, i.e., editions, which are called "senior" and "junior." The senior account is the parchment Synodal list of the XIII-XIV centuries, it is considered the oldest of the surviving lists of our Russian annals. But Junior Harvest is available on several lists at once, with the earliest dating back to the 1440s.


Novgorod first annals. One part of the manuscript is of the XIII century, the other of the XIV century. Materials: parchment, ink; handwriting - charter, binding (late 1237th century) - cardboard, leather. Opened on the story of the Batu invasion of Russia in XNUMX. GIM

Further, the Karamzinsk Chronicle is known, not only with Novgorod local, but also with all-Russian news, of the late XV - early XVI centuries. Then comes the Novgorod fourth chronicle in two editions, as well as the Novgorod fifth chronicle, known on the list of the late XNUMXth century, and devoted mainly to local events.

The period from 1447-1469 is presented in its fullest form in the Chronicle of Abraham, the first part of which was completed in 1469, and the second, drawn up in 1495. Although in 1478 the Novgorod Republic lost its independence, the annals in Novgorod continued until the 1670th – 1680th centuries and even later. A few more chronicles were compiled, and then, in the 1690-1695s, it was revived by the works of Patriarch Joachim. The Novgorod Zabelinsky Chronicle also belongs to the period of 1679-1680, the exposition in it is brought to 1690. The last Novgorod Pogodinsky chronicle was compiled in the XNUMXs. It is interesting that it was the Novgorod annals of the late XNUMXth century that differ from all others in systematic references to sources (that’s even how!) And their certain criticism.

To be continued ...
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  1. Gene84
    Gene84 18 March 2020 05: 31 New
    +27
    Now adherents of the "folklore" will fly in and popularly explains that all the ancient chronicles were taken out to the closed part of the Vatican library laughing
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 March 2020 06: 33 New
      +16
      exported to the closed part of the Vatican library
      Moreover, the Zionists laughing
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 08: 18 New
        +8
        The funny thing is Anton, it’s about the library ... Maybe you remember, one here asked me to get him a job there. I wrote to the Vatican (there are "holidays"!), But from the official materials I realized that the application indicates where you want to work. I sent a letter to the person in PM. Like, decide. I can’t move on, and ... no answer, no greetings. Indicative level of interest ...
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 March 2020 08: 59 New
          +4
          Now I do not understand: your vis-a-vis wanted to become an employee of the Vatican library ???
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 09: 21 New
            +7
            No, so I arranged for him to work in a library with literature. But there are different departments and when filling out an application, you need to indicate which one you need. This is not a rural reading room.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 10: 07 New
              +9
              No, so I arranged for him to work in a library with literature.

              He won’t go there himself now. stop Because of that very virus! It was his Lord who "diverted" from this, which is calledhi
              that the same German historians, "whom Lomonosov beat the muzzle"

              Scene "Mikhail Vasilievich Lomonosov hands three German historians on the cheeks." laughing

              Joke. wink These are figures from the model "Petrovsky water area". On the part of the layout depicting Vasilievsky Island of St. Petersburg of the 2th century, there is a sketch "Mikhail Lomonosov fights off drunken sailors" (he is in red). You click on the button on the layout - miniature, no more than XNUMX cm tall, the scientist begins to move his hand, beating the opponent, the sound of blows is heard behind the scenes. good
              This is a historical joke. One day, Lomonosov was returning home late in the evening, and three sailors attacked him from the bushes. Well .. apparently in the dark they didn’t understand who they encroached on ... lol Mikhail Vasilievich immediately knocked out two of them. angry He took the third by the scruff of his neck, and shook in the air: "Why attacked me?" am The grief robber muttered in response: "Shu ... I wanted to take off my fur coat ..." belay (two of his comrades came to their senses and started off). "Ah, you wanted to take off my fur coat ?! So I'll undress you myself!" - boomed Lomonosov. He ordered the sailor to undress to the bottom, which he implicitly performed. Then the things of the loser were connected by a knot, which the "luminary of Russian science" threw behind its back, and proudly retired home! good drinks that is ... Not only the Germans suffered from Lomonosov! laughing
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 18 March 2020 10: 27 New
                +6
                So he has such a surname, corresponding - Break your noses. laughing drinks
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 10: 28 New
                  +8
                  So he has such a surname, corresponding - Break your noses.

                  Yes, Konstantin, it seems that in a critical situation he more than corresponded to her! hi
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 12: 48 New
          +11
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks, great article. Pleasing is the general tone of the comments; adequacy prevails. A few years ago, the picture was not so straightforward. Work on the field of education is bearing fruit; it should be nice.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 15: 03 New
            +6
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Work on the field of education is bearing fruit; it should be nice.

            Yes, dear Michael. I also noticed ...
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 18 March 2020 07: 17 New
      -10
      The number of chronicle documents preserved to our time is very large and amounts to about 5000 units!


      where does this figure come from? link please.

      True, later the Germans came in large numbers. And by 1839 they became ... 34 (all on the list), although it is clear that those former ones have already died, but somehow they managed to ... "rewrite". And these continued, right? But even in this case, 147 chronicles per brother are already too much


      for clarity, what Nosovsky G.V. said about this

      For 117 years (more than a century!) At the Russian Academy of Sciences, from its founding in 1724 to 1841, THREE FOUR HISTORIAN ACADEMICIANS HAVE ALL THOUGHT THREE RUSSIAN ACADEMICIANS. These are M.V. Lomonosov, Ya. O. Yartsov and N. G. Ustryalov [973], book 1. They are marked with asterisks in the list. ALL THE OTHER THIRTY ONE ACADEMICIANS WERE FOREIGNERS. Thus, up to the middle of the XNUMXth century, the share of foreign historians exceeded NINety percent in the Russian Academy!


      and besides, the author needs to know that these foreign academics were helped by the Russian Orthodox Consistory, reformed by Nikon, with its super-powerful bureaucratic apparatus. Who considered these church graffiti-writers there.
      And apparently not only Russian, but also, for example, Prussian, because the Radzivilovskaya chronicle appeared from there, which means that the Prussians knew the Russian language well.
      So for more than 100 years it’s not difficult to make up a bunch of edited lists.
      Therefore, the bewilderment and pathos of the article, as it disappears.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 18 March 2020 07: 39 New
        +11
        Quote: Bar1


        and besides, the author needs to know that these foreign academics were helped by the Russian Orthodox Consistory, reformed by Nikon, with its super-powerful bureaucratic apparatus. Who considered these church graffiti-writers there.

        where infa? link please
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 March 2020 08: 20 New
          -8
          Quote: Tlauicol
          where infa? link please


          the fact that since the time of Nikon the Orthodox consistory has already played on the side of the "enlightened west" there is no doubt, but why then was this bloody schism in the 17th century, for the sake of what would be baptized with three fingers and call Jesus-Jesus?
          And besides, if you take the Radzivilov chronicle, then the whole chronology is already erased in the official, as well as the biblical one. For example, frank lapsus says that the Poles lived on the Vistula River, but the Vistula was not called the Vistula, and in the 18th century it was called Vistula. .e. and geographical misses in the annals.

          Slovene they came and Sedosha on the Vistula River and nicknamed Lakhov, and from Lakhs nicknamed Glade, Lohova, Drouse, Loutichi, they ima Zovshane Pomeran




          the Dvina River is also mentioned, but the Dvina used to be called Duna (under Alexei Mikhailovich).
          1. tlauicol
            tlauicol 18 March 2020 08: 34 New
            +9
            Will you give an answer? So much paper messed up, and zero information
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 15 New
              -11
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Will you give an answer? So much paper messed up, and zero information


              -Lavrentievsky annals-wrote the monk Lavrentiy
              -Ipatiev Chronicle found in Ipatiev Monastery
              churchmen had a hand in the annals, and not just German academics. What else do you need?
              1. tlauicol
                tlauicol 18 March 2020 09: 21 New
                +16
                Russian chroniclers helped foreign academics rewrite "OUR" history - did I understand you correctly?
                And as proof of your words?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 26 New
                  -13
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  as evidence your words?


                  as evidence, the Lavrentievsky annals from the monk Lavrenty. And how did I forget the monk Nestor, who wrote the PVL.
                  1. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 18 March 2020 09: 49 New
                    +14
                    Quote: Bar1
                    Quote: Tlauicol
                    as evidence your words?


                    as evidence, the Lavrentievsky annals from the monk Lavrenty. And how did I forget the monk Nestor, who wrote the PVL.

                    this is understandable - the author Pupkin, Ivanov, Nestor, etc. Where is the evidence that they rewrote THIS history and helped the agents of the West and the Middle East?
                    and how do the Newcomers know the truth?
                    1. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 March 2020 10: 29 New
                      -11
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      Quote: Bar1
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      as evidence your words?


                      as evidence, the Lavrentievsky annals from the monk Lavrenty. And how did I forget the monk Nestor, who wrote the PVL.

                      this is understandable - the author Pupkin, Ivanov, Nestor, etc. Where is the evidence that they rewrote THIS history and helped the agents of the West and the Middle East?
                      and how do the Newcomers know the truth?


                      about Pupkin you certainly know better ...
              2. kalibr
                18 March 2020 09: 32 New
                +8
                Quote: Bar1
                not just German academics

                How is this known?
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 58 New
                  -12
                  Quote: kalibr
                  How is this known?


                  A study of Lomonosov’s historical work was carried out using the INVARIANT method of texts. This study was conducted by Anatoly Fomenko’s parents. And it turned out that the historical work is stylistically and most importantly mathematical-statistical method different from all his other works. Lomonosov’s work is falsified, most likely by Miller.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 March 2020 10: 24 New
                    +8
                    So the chronicles were studied in the same way. And the same Miller was the first to pay attention to various inconsistencies and dark places. The work was written in German, then somewhere in 1801 it was published in Russian, but I don’t remember 100%, it’s not at hand.
          2. kalibr
            18 March 2020 08: 38 New
            +14
            Quote: Bar1
            the fact that the Orthodox consistory since Nikon played on the side of the "enlightened west" is no doubt

            I haven’t laughed like that for a long time! Already, Nikon got into the Vatican’s proteges ... N-yes. Hard case! A man with a “hot iron” who burned Calvinism and Latin in Russia turns out to be an “agent” ...
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 52 New
              -11
              Quote: kalibr
              I haven’t laughed like that for a long time! Already, Nikon got into the Vatican’s proteges ... N-yes. Hard case! A man with a “hot iron” who burned Calvinism and Latin in Russia turns out to be an “agent”.


              Professor Alexander Pyzhikov — the kingdom to him was heaven, was a man primarily of science and he dug up such a thing — probably the main thing in falsifying history is that Raskolniki were not Christians and it was the 17th century. So whoever Nikon fought with the Calvinis or not the Calvinists is already outside the logic of history.
          3. Gene84
            Gene84 18 March 2020 10: 31 New
            +25
            Quote: Bar1
            Poles lived on the Vistula River, but the Vistula was not called the Vistula, and in the 18th century it was called Vistula

            From all blamed Wikipedia:
            The name was first recorded by Pomponius Mela in 40 BC. e. and Pliny in 77 g. e. in Natural History. Mela calls the river Vistula (3.33), Pliny uses the form Vistla (4.81, 4.97, 4.100)
            As you can see, Pliny called the Vistula Vistula.
            The Vistula River in Latin and Greek sources is recorded as Viscla, Vistla, Vistula. The well-known Polish linguist Alexander Bruckner writes about the name Vistula that in the north and east of Europe there is no other river name, the sound of which would remain so unchanged for millennia. Thus the essence of the name of the Vistula is one and the same for millennia. And the Vistula and Vistula river was called simultaneously for centuries.
            Quote: Bar1
            Dvina used to be (under Alexei Mikhailovich) Duna

            Duna is the Livonian name for the Western Dvina River.
            From the same wikipedia:
            Throughout history, the Zapadnaya Dvina River had about 14 names: Dina, Vina, Tanair, Turun, Rodan, Dune, Eridan, Zapadnaya Dvina and others. So in the XV century, Gilbert de Lannoa notes that the Zemgale tribes called Dvina Samegalsar (Semigals-Ara, that is, Zemgale water). In ancient times, the path "from the Varangians to the Greeks" passed along it.
            The name "Dvina" was first mentioned by the chronicler-monk Nestor. At the beginning of his annals, he writes: "The Dnieper will flow from the Volkovsky forest and will flow at noon, and Dvina from the same forest will flow at midnight and go down to the Varyazhskoe Sea."

            At the time of the chronicler Nestor, the Western Dvina was already called "Dvina"
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 13: 56 New
              +6
              Quote: Gene84
              Vistula River in Latin and Greek sources

              Quote: Gene84
              Duna is the Livonian name for the Western Dvina River.

              Great comment.
              I have repeatedly pointed out to my comrade that any geographical or topographic object that exists for some time in the territory where people live, changes its name many times during its existence and, moreover, at the same time, different peoples have different names . This is especially true of rivers, which in the same historical period from the headwaters to the mouth can have several completely different names that have absolutely nothing in common.
              But the comrade is not familiar. The fact that the Western Dvina even now has a second quite official name - the Daugava does not lead him to any thoughts.
            2. Bar1
              Bar1 18 March 2020 22: 20 New
              0
              Quote: Gene84
              From all blamed Wikipedia:


              -Pomponius knew that Vistula
              -Nestor after 1000 years did not know that Vistula
              -In the 17-19th century they called -Vistula
              - historian Bruckner - said that the name of the river is stable for millennia.
              this story is like nonsense.


              Quote: Gene84
              Duna is the Livonian name for the Western Dvina River.

              and the Danube is a great Slavic river, whose name is it?
              The same in Yugoslavia there is such a river Socha / Izontsa, and in the Caucasus the Sochi river and the city of Sochi, but Sochi Yugoslav is a Slavic name
              oozing oozing
              and Caucasian Sochi, not Russian, is what the OI says to us.
          4. Caretaker
            Caretaker 18 March 2020 21: 45 New
            0
            Quote: Bar1
            the Dvina River is also mentioned, but the Dvina used to be called Duna (under Alexei Mikhailovich).

            Right, or Dean. The city of Dinaburg.
      2. kalibr
        18 March 2020 07: 44 New
        +6
        See how interesting. Already there are shifts in the foam of the brain. Previously, they wrote that Schletser rewrote everything ... now the consistory helped. And the trick is that Nosovsky writes everything correctly, but ... all these academics were in Russia not at once, but for 117 years. So much they could not live in a bunch, right? Some came, others died, and even for 100 years, 5000 volumes could not be rewritten. And all the lists of chronicles that have come down to us are in the Archive of Ancient Acts ... Address there ...
      3. Gene84
        Gene84 18 March 2020 07: 47 New
        +22
        Quote: Bar1
        Nosovsky G.V.

        Sorry, but referring to Nosovsky’s mathematician is not serious. As for the mathematician, there are no complaints against him. But as a co-author of A. T. Fomenko’s books on the “New Chronology,” this pseudoscientific theory that the entire scientific community rejects has a lot of complaints. I don’t want to list them all for too long.
        P.S. The "New Chronology" was condemned by the Russian Orthodox Old Believer Church, to which Gleb Nosovsky belonged. In 1998, he was excommunicated.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 March 2020 08: 51 New
          -9
          Quote: Gene84
          Sorry, but it’s not serious to refer to Nosovsky’s mathematician.


          Nosovsky never drives a gag, but refers in his work to the Academy of Sciences. By the way, Fomenko-Nosovsky, of course.
          # [736] "Russian Academy of Sciences. Personnel." In three books. Book 1: 1724-1917. Book 2: 1918-1973. Book 3: 1974-1999. - Moscow, publishing house Science, 1999.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 09: 00 New
            +6
            So no one disputes the figure 34 for 117 years ...
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 00 New
            +6
            Quote: Bar1
            Nosovsky never drives a gag

            "Gag" is the whole "new chronology." Nosovsky and Fomenko never but drove the gag in their "historical" works.
      4. kalibr
        18 March 2020 08: 10 New
        +8
        Quote: Bar1
        Who counted these church bibliographers there.
        And apparently not only Russian, but also, for example, Prussian, because the Radzivilovskaya chronicle appeared from there, which means that the Prussians knew the Russian language well.

        Apparently invisible, but the result is one - there are no negative and derogatory texts of Russia and its people. There are texts telling about bitter and grievous things, about struggles and torments, but no - they say that you are all ... (the word is forbidden in VO!) And you wipe the nettles back. There's no such thing! And why then all this cheese boron with rewriting? From reading the annals of our ancestors is not ashamed, but in theory - should. So it’s not necessary to produce all this nonsense about Russophobic rewritings of chronicles. There simply is nothing like that. I went to the PSRL site - I read it myself, I understood it myself. All!
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 04 New
          -10
          Quote: kalibr
          Apparently invisible, but the result is one - there are no negative and derogatory texts of Russia and its people.


          how is it not? This also exists, here, as the Tsar Peter appreciated the Russian people.

          To make people from (Russian) cattle, as Peter I said [336] T. 5, p. 569-570.
          # [336] "The history of mankind. World history." Volume 1-9. Translation from German. Edited by G. Helmolt. - St. Petersburg, Enlightenment Publishing Partnership, 1896.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 10: 56 New
            +6
            This is not
            Quote: Bar1
            To make people from (Russian) cattle, as Peter I said [336]. T. 5, p. 569-570.
            not the text of the annals ...
        2. Bar1
          Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 08 New
          -9
          Quote: kalibr
          I went to the PSRL site - I read it myself, I understood it myself. All!


          By the way, from the illustrations of the Annals of Archives that you bring here, how to explain that the Russian rulers wore solar crowns, about which your story does not say anything, where did the Russian crowns go?
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 09: 12 New
            +10
            You can draw anything you want! I brought here miniatures from Western manuscripts, which depict knights fighting in helmets "toad head" ....
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 19 New
              -8
              Quote: kalibr
              You can draw anything you want! I brought here miniatures from Western manuscripts, which depict knights fighting in helmets "toad head" ..


              and you can draw “anything” and you can also write “anything”, this is your point of view. But then from your own words it turns out that these annals are falsification and lies.
              1. kalibr
                18 March 2020 09: 30 New
                +5
                Quote: Bar1
                But then it turns out from your own words that these annals are falsification and lies.

                In no way. Read the article ... PSRL read ... Opportunity and fulfillment of opportunity - two different things!
                1. Bar1
                  Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 44 New
                  -7
                  Quote: kalibr
                  In no way. Read the article ... PSRL read ... Opportunity and fulfillment of opportunity - two different things!


                  those. suggest filtering? The pictures are falsification, and the text is true. Yes, you need to have a very sophisticated mind to discard facts that do not go into your story and accept only ideologically correct ones. I always said that your story is selective.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 March 2020 10: 18 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Bar1
                    The pictures are falsification, and the text is true.

                    Pictures are usually painted by a contemporary man! Texts often corresponded, i.e. older ones became new. Often with errors. For example, the description of the Battle of the Ice indicates a different day for the patron saint of that day. First, one, then another, eventually returning to the original. People are people.
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 10: 59 New
                      +12
                      For example, the description of the Battle of the Ice indicates a different day for the patron saint of that day. First, one, then another, eventually returning to the original. People are people.

                      it is interesting that in your article it is stated that the losses of the Germans also "walked upward." People are people. request
                      The article is serious and unusual interesting material. I bow, Vyacheslav Olegovich! hi
                    2. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 March 2020 12: 26 New
                      -3
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Pictures are usually painted by a contemporary man! T

                      yeah, the face vault of Ivan the Terrible, that's why it’s called Litsevaya, because it’s illustrated. From the very beginning it was with pictures. And it covers the period until Ivan 4 and there it is IN THE SUN CROWN.




                      those. contemporary of Ivan 4 painted the king in the crown, but in your opinion he was wrong or what? Something I do not understand you.
                      1. kalibr
                        18 March 2020 15: 07 New
                        +3
                        He is in the same annals painted in the hat of Monomakh. So this does not mean anything ...
                      2. Bar1
                        Bar1 18 March 2020 17: 36 New
                        -3
                        Quote: kalibr
                        He is in the same annals painted in the hat of Monomakh. So this does not mean anything ...

                        First, you need to show it, then, how did you recognize the Monomakh hat, maybe it's just a hat?
                        Here is an engraving for the 17th century. A journey to Muscovy van Klenk, where Alexei Mikhailovich is sitting in a hat, and on his hat is a solar crown.



                        So they wore crowns that are made of metal and probably physically wears such a thing heavily on their heads.
                        For example, the Florentine Chronicle, sits Pharaoh in 198. It is in the hat and again in the solar crown.

                        .

    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 18 March 2020 09: 30 New
      +10
      Quote: Bar1
      So for more than 100 years concoct a bunch of olA list is not complicated.

      WHY are they all? !! belay
      Answer, for starters, this simple and logical question!

      The author is convincing. You are absolutely not.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 18 March 2020 09: 41 New
        -10
        Quote: Olgovich
        Quote: Bar1
        So for more than 100 years concoct a bunch of olA list is not complicated.

        WHY are they all? !! belay
        Answer, for starters, this simple and logical question!

        The author is convincing. You are absolutely not.


        and you will answer the question that I ask in ALL historical articles on VO. Where did the Great Tartaria go about from history, about which a LOT of documents have been written, as you answer, everything will fall into place.
        1. Gene84
          Gene84 18 March 2020 10: 45 New
          +27
          Quote: Bar1
          Where did the Great Tartaria go from history

          nowhere. she was not there.
          tartaria is a geographical term used in Western European literature and cartography in relation to vast areas from the Caspian to the Pacific Ocean and to the borders of China and India.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 18 March 2020 11: 48 New
            -6
            Quote: Gene84
            tartaria is a geographical term,

            geographical terms do not have slates, and the British encyclopedia of the capital of Tartaria is given. There are also sea flags of the state of Tartaria.
            1. kalibr
              18 March 2020 12: 51 New
              +5
              So you look at the "British" and read what they write about her!
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 18 March 2020 13: 40 New
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                So you look at the "British" and read what they write about her!


                They have been talking about this for a long time, I’m so constantly, do you forget everything?

                1. kalibr
                  18 March 2020 15: 19 New
                  +3
                  So, if you are constantly on the pages of the Encyclopedia Britannica, you should know what was written about Tartaria in its first edition of 1771! And this is what is written: "Great Tartaria is the largest country in the world." Translate into Russian and see what happens in the end.
                  "TARTARY, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Moscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, located north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China. "
                  That is, we are talking about the Tatars, Kalmyks, Circassians and Dagestanis in all forms. This is simply a geographical term and nothing more. Analog - Africa - Africa, Asia - Asia, etc. We called the inhabitants of these areas Tatars, the English added the letter p in memory of the fact that the ancient Greek Tartarus was the end of the known world.
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 18 March 2020 16: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    So, if you are constantly on the pages of the Encyclopedia "Britannica"


                    and the fact that Tartaria has capitals that you do not need to pay attention, or what?
                    and what's that? Along with other countries there are flags of Tartaria? Because it is a territory?



                    http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/images/kiev1709.jpg
                    1. kalibr
                      18 March 2020 17: 50 New
                      +1
                      That is, you know the English language, so this must be understood?
                    2. kalibr
                      18 March 2020 17: 51 New
                      +4
                      It says: sea flags, which must be put on the bow, and which aft. That is, the Mogul Tartars also had the Navy?
                    3. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 March 2020 19: 37 New
                      -5
                      Quote: kalibr
                      It says: sea flags, which must be put on the bow, and which aft. That is, the Mogul Tartars also had the Navy?


                      even as it was. Here is an image on a map of Japan, a Japanese ship with a tartar flag with a griffin.

                    4. kalibr
                      18 March 2020 21: 39 New
                      +2
                      Interesting! But where did he go? In which battles and with whom was he noted? Was it built at the shipyards of Vladivostok or Port Arthur?
                    5. Bar1
                      Bar1 18 March 2020 22: 53 New
                      -3
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Vladivostok or Port Arthur?


                      the history of the name Port Arthur can’t be funnier.

                      In addition, the history of the partition of China by European countries recalls how wolves poisoned a bear, there were all Britain, Germany, France, Russia, Japan, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Austria, and the United States. And for some reason, the Russians of Kharbin and Blagoveshchensk suffered from the Hunkhuzes. It is simply amazing how much effort it took to defeat an underdeveloped China, the whole world gathered to defeat one country and this, of course, was not China, but the last fragment of Tartaria. It was just a world war .. Usually only the Russians, or tartars, show such resistance. Then, on orders, Grodekov refused the Russians, i.e. Tartar lands of Manchuria.
                      For some reason you do not write about this war.
                    6. kalibr
                      19 March 2020 07: 44 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Bar1
                      and of course it was not China, but the last fragment of Tartaria. It was just a world war ..

                      Yes, this is a diagnosis. Or the hardest drugs ...
                    7. Bar1
                      Bar1 19 March 2020 09: 32 New
                      -2
                      Quote: kalibr
                      Yes, this is a diagnosis. Or the hardest drugs ...


                      for mentioning you of Tartaria, what is fined in the institute?

                      Actually, you were prompted to look at the book of Rybakov maps of Muscovy. And what did I see there? And there, in full growth, in large letters, as it should be written Tartaria or Tartaria small, but Rybakov, citing these maps of famous cartographers of the Middle Ages, DOESN’T notice these names and insists on a horde, etc.
                      Is this called a story? This is not history or science, which I’m constantly telling you here, but already a brain problem.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 March 2020 12: 02 New
    +3
    Quote: Bar1

    and you answer the question that I ask in ALL historical articles on VO. Where did Great Tartaria go from history

    those. You are not able to answer simplest question -"what for?".

    But he is the basis of the basics
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 18 March 2020 12: 40 New
      -5
      Quote: Olgovich
      You are not able to answer the simplest question - “why?”.


      What is not clear here? Whoever has a past has no future. The falsification of history was carried out in order to not only seize power, but also to maintain power.
      For example, the historian Alexander Pyzhikov said that the Romanovs came to power not only illegally, but also criminally and justifies this on existing documents from the Russian State Property Administration, by the way, to which Shpakovsky refers. And your story, what does it say? That at the Zemsky Sobor Mikhail Romanov was elected completely legal and legitimate, and that’s a lie.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 March 2020 14: 06 New
        +2
        Quote: Bar1

        What is not clear here? Whoever has a past has no future.

        1. So it is, the past, было- in any case, i.e. and the future was.
        2. Give the quote incorrectly: "Who does not REMEMBER ..."
        Quote: Bar1
        . The falsification of history was carried out in order to not only seize power, but also to retain power.

        The seizure and retention of power is carried out in the presence of the MEANS (forces) for this, and not by inventing "grounds" that are absolutely indifferent to everyone.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 24 New
        +4
        Quote: Bar1
        historian Alexander Pyzhikov said that the Romanovs came to power not only illegally, but also criminally

        Quote: Bar1
        And your story, what does it say? That at the Zemsky Sobor Mikhail Romanov was elected completely legal and legitimate, and that’s a lie.

        Pyzhikov is the same freak from history as Fomenko. We have Boris55 here, his ardent adherent. laughing Would you like to join?
        Question. In your opinion (or in Pyzhikov’s opinion, I don’t care) there should have been a procedure for choosing a new king so that you (or Pyzhikov) would consider her legitimate and legal?
        After the question of the chronicles, as well as the negroid origin of the Ruso-Aryans, this will be my third question for you. I believe that he will also remain unanswered. laughing
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 18 March 2020 17: 54 New
          -4
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Pyzhikov is the same freak from history as Fomenko.

          In the number of freaks arrived. There was a candidate of historical Zharnikov with his Aryans / Russians, now here is academician Doctor of historical sciences Pyzhikov.
          Only you, it’s not clear who.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 18: 54 New
            +3
            Pyzhikov would be better off continuing to study the history of the CPSU. There he is a dock, only this is of little interest to anyone. Much cozier about antiquity to compose ...
            Do you know what is one of the evils generated by Fomenko? The fact that this figure pierced the bottom of historical science with his own fabrications and demonstrated that since the time of Lena Zosimova, the people continue to haw, as he did before, in the apt expression of Bogdan Titomir, that there, deeper than this bottom there is that need a certain category of citizens.
            And if Fomenko with his wretched constructions is possible, if people buy his books, discuss, what is the conditional Pyzhikov worse? After all, he even seems to be a historian ... And if people are ready to pay money for fecal mass instead of normal information, then what difference does it like, this money, smell and from which toilet is extracted? Go ahead, push, create.
            This is the market. Capitalism. You can earn - earn. Earned - well done and few people care about the smell or taste of your money.
            So she climbed into the hole punched by Fomenko and Nosovsky with all kinds of rot.
            I can imagine with what sincere contempt most of these authors relate to their readers ... But since "people hawala", you need to feed him, otherwise someone else will feed and take your money from the loshki ...
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 March 2020 20: 56 New
              +3
              Bravo, Michael!
    2. Kronos
      Kronos 18 March 2020 12: 47 New
      -4
      Symmetry is a stubborn monarchist anti adviser olgovich and a stubborn conspirator Bar1
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 March 2020 13: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: Kronos
        Symmetry is a stubborn monarchist anti adviser olgovich and a stubborn conspirator Bar1

        And there is a sad one. yes

        NOT A WORD on the topic or for anything ...

        One .... VOID .... lol
    3. Tamparu
      Tamparu 18 March 2020 15: 31 New
      0
      Quote: Olgovich
      Quote: Bar1

      and you answer the question that I ask in ALL historical articles on VO. Where did Great Tartaria go from history

      those. You are not able to answer simplest question -"what for?".

      But he is the basis of the basics

      Allow to "insert your 5 cents"?
      You never wondered:
      1. Looking back at the Soviet history textbook, in my opinion, Grade 5, where the history of Ancient Russia was studied and where maps of Ancient Kievan Rus with the city of Kiev were laid out, somewhere from the edge, on the Black Sea coast, we could observe part Russia in the form of Tmutarakan, which is located 1000 km from Russia itself. Moreover, between these parts of one state were hostile tribes of Polovtsy, Pechenegs, etc. How could the Tmutarakan exist among hostile tribes, and if help comes, it will take a long time ?! And why exactly Tmutarakan, and not something closer, for example, the territory of the Kherson and Nikolaev regions of modern Ukraine, which are much closer to Kiev and have access to the Black Sea and even the mouth of the Dnieper !?
      2. The Tsar’s crown of the Russian Tsar has an Arabic script, and not only the crown. Why's that?
      3. The famous Athanasius Nikitin with his work "Walking Over Three Seas". In his letters, he, ending them, used quotes from the Koran, writing them in the original language. Why the Qur'an, why not something from the Bible or some covenant, new or old. It seems that the Orthodox Church dominated in our country ?!
      4. The Swedes spoke good Russian in the 18th century, but switched to the Latin alphabet. Why?
      5. Why did Peter 1 dig up St. Petersburg, and is history trying to prove to us that he built this city?
      6. Why did Peter 1 take bells from churches to pour guns against the war with the Swedes when there were steel mills, and not only in the Urals?
      7. What, then, was Pugachev’s rebellion that only Suvorov could cope with?
      And so on, so on, so on ...
      With respect... hi
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 16: 29 New
        +5
        Quote: TampaRU
        Allow "insert your 5 cents"

        Questions in the style of "why do you still drink a glass of vodka in the morning." You’ll start to answer - for any fault.
        1. Tmutarakan. The port city, which is necessary for everyone in this region, therefore, everyone was interested in its functioning in one way or another - trade was going through it. As a result, the Byzantines still squeezed him out of the Russians, moreover, peacefully and calmly - apparently there were almost no Russians left there by that time.
        2.
        Quote: TampaRU
        Tsar’s crown of the Russian Tsar

        I've never heard of such a thing. Do you mean the Monomakh hat? So she is not Monomakh at all, but in general, in fact, a skullcap made in the Horde two hundred years after Monomakh. On it, like there were some kind of Arabic letters. On the rest of the "royal caps" was not. On imperial crowns - even more so.
        3.
        Quote: TampaRU
        Afanasiy Nikitin

        It seems like "in the original language" he did not write - everything is only in Cyrillic. And the fact that the words Basurman, so how many years he wandered there - picked up. Moreover, this is only one such case. To draw a conclusion only on this basis about the identity or merging of the Orthodox and Muslim faiths, contradicting dozens and even hundreds of other sources, is stupid.
        4.
        Quote: TampaRU
        The Swedes spoke good Russian in the 18th century

        No better than Russian in Swedish. Nonsense. The Swedes spoke their language.
        5.
        Quote: TampaRU
        Why Peter 1 was digging up St. Petersburg

        Again nonsense. Petersburg they didn’t dig out all their lives, but they added it. And still they pour it. Digging is useless - you’ll drown.
        6.
        Quote: TampaRU
        Peter 1 shot the bells from the churches

        Dismantled this topic, in my opinion in the article Ryzhov about Alexei Petrovich.
        Quote: TampaRU
        there were steel mills, and not only in the Urals

        There was something, but not enough.
        7.
        Quote: TampaRU
        What was Pugachev's revolt all the same?

        Riot of the people on the outskirts of the empire. They began to enslave people, but they did not want to.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 17: 11 New
          +5
          Again nonsense. Petersburg they didn’t dig out all their lives, but they added it. And still they pour it. Digging is useless - you’ll drown.

          exactly. Lenin Park (South Primorsky) was poured near me in the 1960-1970s. Before that, the swamp was
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 20: 29 New
            +3
            Quote: TampaRU
            This is the answer to your 4 point,

            And you will find many such "manuscripts"? One? This one, Karl’s Ode to the Ascension, if I am not mistaken? Or a requiem ... I don’t remember. Well, ask yourself what kind of document it is and where it came from. Here in VO it has already been dismantled more than once ...
            Keep in mind that everything else that was published in Sweden at that time, as well as earlier and later, and there are many such documents, were executed in pure Swedish.
            1. Tamparu
              Tamparu 19 March 2020 18: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Quote: TampaRU
              This is the answer to your 4 point,

              And you will find many such "manuscripts"? One? This one, Karl’s Ode to the Ascension, if I am not mistaken? Or a requiem ... I don’t remember. Well, ask yourself what kind of document it is and where it came from. Here in VO it has already been dismantled more than once ...
              Keep in mind that everything else that was published in Sweden at that time, as well as earlier and later, and there are many such documents, were executed in pure Swedish.

              You know, it is difficult to oppose something to you and those whom you cite, all the more so based on a traditional, drawn story from the beginning, and possibly the middle of the 19th century, back centuries ... If a person does not want to think about certain inconsistencies of all that what really surrounds us with what is presented to us from all sides, let it continue to live in it. Why convince him if all this suits him ?! BUT, there are people whom this does not suit. They are interested in the answers to these inconsistencies, starting from the foundations of the universe and ending with our recent history and these questions are simply a huge number. Even our language, our alphabet .. What can I say .. Even the simplest ... The expressions we use that are not understandable to foreigners, but we cannot explain why we say that ?! For example, what came to mind and to which the Arabist Nikolai Vishkevich found an explanation in his work "Abracadabra" and not only our expressions "this is where the dog is buried" or "retired goat drummer". As for history, the question always arises, at least for me:
              1. Why, for the most part, over the course of several centuries, the Anglo-Saxon nation, itself or using someone, has been waging a fierce struggle with us to destroy? Where is the "0" -th point of the beginning of the struggle, which led to this? Are, for example, the so-called “black barons” and so on? What place did the Romanovs occupy in this group and so on ?!
              Summing up the results of our short discussion, I want to say. It is wonderful that you are a completely satisfied person regarding the history of Russia and the whole world that we have at the moment. I, although I think that I am not the only one, is not satisfied with what is written in our and world editions that our and foreign pseudo-historians present to us ... Therefore, I will try, as far as possible, to figure out and understand the truth for myself as much as possible ....
              Sincerely, hi
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 22: 11 New
                +1
                You know, I'm no less curious than you. And I also notice what you call inconsistencies. It was with this that my fascination with history began.
                In my main work, I often have to attract narrow specialists in a particular area to clarify emerging issues, communicate with them, ask questions, and try to understand something. The main thing that I learned from this communication is that any branch of human activity is replete with an infinite number of subtleties, nuances and pitfalls that are completely impossible to study. The degree of professionalism in any field is determined precisely by the number of such nuances known to the specialist. No matter how smart you are, in any field of activity not directly related to your profession, people who are next to you are just zero, just like they are zero next to you, when it comes to your profession. The conclusion is simple: if you want to get guaranteed reliable knowledge on any issue - turn to specialists. interested in the mechanism of action of poisons - go to a toxicologist, not a therapist, asphalt laying technology - to a road builder, and not to a conditional architect, "inconsistency" in the field of historical knowledge - to a specialist in this field. There are puzzles that have no clue from the point of view of modern science. There are those in history. But most of your questions, most likely, have long been given comprehensive answers, you just need to look and be able to find them.
                I went this way - I am looking for answers to my questions from professionals. This is more difficult because the language of professionals is difficult, often tedious, and not always clear. But you can figure it out if you wish.
                But there is another way - the path of least resistance. In search of answers to your questions in this case, you do not go to professionals, but to charlatans who can explain everything to you and exactly the way you want. They will find an answer to any question that suits you. All the secrets will be revealed to you and personally this will not require any super efforts and you, since you are not a specialist in history, swallow their explanations, because they appeal to your logic and common sense, but do not require knowledge of the subject at all. At a primitive, exaggerated level, it will look like this (I really like this example, I often use it if you already come across it, I apologize):
                Given:
                5h5 = 25
                6h6 = 36
                Find: how much will be 7x7
                Solve this problem for a while "forgetting" about arithmetic. Imagine that you only know what is in the conditions. By logic and common sense, you will inevitably get that 7x7 = 47. What do maths hide from us? laughing
                Fomenko and others speculate precisely on this. They are not looking for answers, they come up with them. And you believe them, because you do not suspect about "arithmetic" and do not know anything about the "multiplication table", believing that logic and common sense are enough to comprehend all the nuances of a complex science.
        3. Tamparu
          Tamparu 18 March 2020 20: 32 New
          -6
          4.
          Quote: TampaRU
          The Swedes spoke good Russian in the 18th century

          No better than Russian in Swedish. Nonsense. The Swedes spoke their language.


          It is difficult now to answer all your remarks regarding my questions to you very thoroughly and reasonably because of my unpreparedness (since this will turn out to be a very large article), but that I could find it in open sources very quickly in a few minutes ... This is the answer to your Point 4, that the Swedes spoke their own language ... Although yes, maybe they spoke their own language, but then who lived in Sweden at the end of the 17th century?

          This is a tombstone deplorable speech, written as a result of the death of the Swedish king Charles 11. We date this document in 1697, but to be precise, instead of the letter "i" the number "1" is put in it. Therefore, it can be argued that all this action took place in і697 .. I think that you can read what is written in this document ....
          And then you can reason ...
          Sincerely, hi
          1. Storekeeper
            Storekeeper 18 March 2020 21: 40 New
            +2
            I wrote sms in Latin letters on the first mobile phone.
            It hurts the modern in your photograph is written, not in Old Slavonic, in good modern Russian only in Latin. An unequivocal fake. hi
          2. Bar1
            Bar1 19 March 2020 14: 27 New
            -1
            Quote: TampaRU
            This is a tombstone deplorable speech, written as a result of the death of the Swedish king Charles 11.


            the deplorable speech of Karl11 has surfaced a long time ago, maybe 15 years have passed already. But they respond in such a way that it was written for the Russian subjects of the Kingdom of Sweden. An official comes to Riga and starts to take a throat in broken Russian. But of course I can hardly believe it, because that usually this is not done, they read it in the imperial language, and next to them the interpreter tries.
        4. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 March 2020 21: 04 New
          +3
          why do you still drink a glass of vodka in the morning "
          Kosyachite, Michael, alas ... Carlson used to say: "Have you stopped drinking cognac in the morning? Answer: yes or no ?!" laughing hi
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 21: 41 New
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Kosyachite, Michael, alas ...

            But surely ... recourse
            Here are two lines, I'm a genius, away from doubt
            Give delight and laurels and flowers!
            "I remember this wonderful moment
            When you appeared before me "

            (c) Vysotsky.
            Just exactly about me. laughing
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 March 2020 17: 46 New
        +9
        6. Why did Peter 1 take bells from churches in order to pour guns against the war with the Swedes when they were steel factories, and not only in the Urals?

        I could not resist!
        At the beginning of the 18th century, on the Stone belt functioned exactly - "zero" steel factories !!!
        There were 3 mining (mining and metallurgical) factories (Kamensky and Nevyansk in the treasury and at the Dolmatovsky monastery).
        Trite, look at the birth dates of single-industry towns of the Urals! The oldest only plan to celebrate their three-hundredth anniversary!
        For example, one of the oldest settlements in the Sverdlovsk region with. Arakaevo, not Yekaterinburg or Nizhny Tagil! By the way, Tyumen, Surgut and Salekhard are older than the capital city of the Urals Federal District!
        Open-hearth production (steel rolling shops) is a little (two centuries) later than a water dam, a blast furnace and a chicken hammer. Cast steel in the Urals was received if I am not mistaken in the middle of the 19th century!
      3. kalibr
        18 March 2020 17: 48 New
        +4
        Poor Andrey ...
      4. BAI
        BAI 18 March 2020 22: 25 New
        +2
        How could the Tmutarakan exist among hostile tribes, and if help comes, it will take a long time ?!

        In the same way as the settlements of ancient Greeks and medieval Genoese existed in Crimea. More precisely, the early medieval.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 19 New
    +6
    Quote: Bar1
    The Great Tartaria, about which a LOT of documents is written

    All this stinking heap is written laughing ) exclusively Fomenko with Nosovsky and their weak-minded adherents. There has never been any Tartaria, there was and is the Great Steppe, which in Europe was called Tartaria, because they did not know anything about it, except that some Tatars live there or whatever they are. And the word "tartar" was well known and understandable to them (the Renaissance, a return to antiquity) - something far and unattainable, terrible and alien.
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 15: 23 New
      +7
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      And the word "tartar" was well known and understandable to them (the Renaissance, a return to antiquity) - something far and unattainable, terrible and alien.

      That's it!
      And here is what the same British wrote about Tartaria in 1771:
      "TARTARY, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Moscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, located north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China. "
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 15: 23 New
        +7
        Uzbek tartars! What a!
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 March 2020 17: 49 New
      +4
      The closest analogue of the word Tartaria is Siberia. Large and immense. By the way, on a number of domestic maps of the 19th century, Siberia included Russian possessions in North America !!! AND.....?
  • BAI
    BAI 18 March 2020 22: 20 New
    +5
    Where did the Great Tartaria go about from history, about which a LOT of documents have been written, as you answer, everything will fall into place.

    In the United States, a whole law is still in force in which a certain Cossack is mentioned in the USSR. What shall we do with this? How to deal with the sanctions that were imposed for the oppression of the people of Cossacks?
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker 18 March 2020 21: 37 New
    -3
    Quote: Bar1
    So for more than 100 years it’s not difficult to make up a bunch of edited lists.
    Therefore, the bewilderment and pathos of the article, as it disappears.

    The author of the article “distorted” a little. Watch your hands (Author).
    First exposes the claim that all 5000 documents are forged.
    Then, on the basis of his own reasoning, he comes to the conclusion that, in principle, there can be no fakes.

    I have never met on the forums claims that all existing documents are fake, i.e. the author refutes his own invention.
  • Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 18 March 2020 07: 44 New
    +6
    Already flown! laughing
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 March 2020 21: 13 New
      +3
      Also minus !!!
  • Basil50
    Basil50 18 March 2020 08: 52 New
    -7
    gene
    * Alternatives * ask questions in response to insults and foam of pseudo-learning.
    HOW historians lie according to the sovereign’s order or simply for money you can see by the Khokhlov and they are not original, before that, the Chinese, Germans, Japanese, the RUSSIAN EMPIRE, the English-French, the Spaniards were noted. It is only those who at the state level faked history.
    The author of the article also lied and is not ashamed
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 09: 01 New
      +11
      Quote: Vasily50
      The author of the article also lied and is not ashamed

      And in what?
    2. Basil50
      Basil50 18 March 2020 09: 36 New
      -6
      An interesting figure of 5000 (five thousand). Is it that the 50001st * document * is no longer considered?
      This is just one example of a lie, and there, in the article, there are a lot of stupidities, right down to an open farce.
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 10: 13 New
        +8
        We have an archive of ancient acts. There is a GMM. There is also a department of ancient manuscripts. You can contact them and clarify everything. To write - then!
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 27 New
        +6
        Quote: Vasily50
        Is it that the 50001st * document * is no longer considered?

        To be precise, there are 50136 of them there and seven tenths of documents (this is if you add the fragments). So will you be more comfortable? The exact number? Check it out.
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 15: 25 New
          +6
          You can’t be so cruel Michael. Well, you spit on a person like that ... He will say that you are also an adherent and agent MI6. How do you prove what's wrong ?!
  • Vend
    Vend 18 March 2020 10: 50 New
    +10
    A competent article, only to feykistorikam these are not facts.
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 18 March 2020 06: 33 New
    +8
    В 1994 during the offensive in the Ardennes, in front of the German troops there were groups of saboteurs dressed in military uniform of the allies and knowing the English language.
    They did not seem to be led to see that the war ended in May 1945. laughing Please correct the date.
  • Horon
    Horon 18 March 2020 07: 07 New
    +3
    For my life, history has been rewritten for the third time, therefore doubts always arise about the reality of the previous vision. I wanted to introduce the ancient Slavs to Christianity as savages in order to elevate the positive aspects of their adoption of Christianity, and now we have documented evidence of their wretchedness and savagery. And whatever happens, God forbid, refuting this evidence, they must first be collected under the pretext of preservation, and then the indecent should be removed. In order not to embarrass the minds of heresy. This is how history is made!
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 07: 36 New
      +11
      Quote: Horon
      I wanted to introduce the ancient Slavs to Christianity as savages in order to elevate the positive aspects of their adoption of Christianity, and now we have documented evidence of their wretchedness and savagery.

      Show the text of the annals, anyone representing the Slavs savages, at least some documentary evidence of their wretchedness and savagery.
      1. Horon
        Horon 18 March 2020 08: 32 New
        +3
        So after all, the illiterate Slavs Cyril and Mythodius gave a letter, even composed the alphabet for them. Is that not so? True, there is an opinion that they only reworked the existing one, but this is only an opinion ?!
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 08: 47 New
          +8
          Writing is known among many nations, and so what? But Lithuania was baptized only in the 14th century ... and before that it vegetated in paganism.
      2. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 18 March 2020 08: 34 New
        -8
        Quote: kalibr
        Show the text of the annals, anyone representing the Slavs savages, at least some documentary evidence of their wretchedness and savagery.
        Shpakovsky, aka Shevchenko, I understand - you are a writer, not a reader, you do not need to read for your compilations, and even more so, understand what is written. Reading a penny does not bring. But at least for the sake of decency you would read a couple of the most famous Russian annals. You can’t be SO UNBOARDED.
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 08: 44 New
          +12
          And what from this? In the annals of many peoples, this is found. And the fact that Christianity in the annals was opposed to paganism is also known. There is no discovery.
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 18 March 2020 09: 16 New
          +12
          damn it! and among the Romans, the Greeks, and the English, in the annals, it’s treason, the tsar makes someone else’s wife — is it they themselves who rewrote history so badly? Or is it part of the Slavic empire?
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 09: 28 New
            +13
            Quote: Tlauicol
            Or is it part of the Slavic empire?

            They were all Russian ...
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 18 March 2020 09: 53 New
              +9
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Or is it part of the Slavic empire?

              They were all Russian ...

              even Jews)) they also wrote nasty things to themselves and, which is characteristic, didn’t think of first correcting their annals - they immediately took on someone else’s superethnos))
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 32 New
      +5
      Quote: Horon
      history is being rewritten for the third time

      It is impossible to rewrite history, it is objective. It can only be studied. And the rubbish that floats on its surface and is striking in the first place is not history, but simply scum, which is blown away by another gust of wind, after which another gradually floats in its place ... But most people see this scum and nothing more .
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 18 March 2020 07: 12 New
    +12
    Eeee, Vyacheslav Olegovich, why don’t you tell the whole truth to the audience? Will have to myself.
    "But it was." (WITH)
    Towards the end of the 18th century, the deeply conspired organization of German academics came to the conclusion that the work of rewriting chronicles by the very sole personnel was impossible. They developed an insidious plan to transfer the forgery to a higher level. In 1814, the Public EIV Library was opened, where chronicles and many incunabula of the pre-Petrine era are brought. At the head of this dubious institution, in all respects, is the famous careerist and chinodral A.N. Venison To work under the guise of librarians Olenin, currency promises (for the ruble and then in Europe in the face they gave), attract famous, but poor Russian writers, they somehow did not suffer from illiteracy. And Russophobian information cluster earned at full power !!!
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 08: 03 New
      +5
      And again - so many people and NO ONE blabbed drunk!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 March 2020 08: 38 New
        +6
        Only 9 librarians on the staffing table compiled by Olenin. Drinking in Priyutino was not welcome, and gambling was generally prohibited.
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 08: 40 New
          +7
          So they, poor ones, write today, probably ... "immortal".
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 March 2020 08: 55 New
            +5
            My previous comment was not ironic.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 14: 06 New
              +5
              My previous comment was not ironic.

              Can I leave you a non-ironic comment? hi where is the material, sir Anton? soldier
              Drinking in Priyutino was not welcome, and gambling was generally prohibited.

              Poor serious people! laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 March 2020 15: 25 New
                +4
                "And the captain M., who came to us the second day with Vyazemsky, is so sweet and shy, not like Alexander Sergeyevich ... I’ll definitely ask Papa to invite him to stay with us in Priyutino." (From the diaries of Anna Olenina)
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 15: 45 New
                  +3
                  not that Alexander Sergeyevich ...

                  "It was in the estate of Alexander Sergeyevich in May ... it is a pleasure to eat in nature. He talks a lot about the young Natalia Goncharova, whom she admires, and at the same time awkwardly tries to slip me her former - Olenin ..." (from the correspondence of Captain M. with the State Councilor Marquis Di Bajini).
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 18 March 2020 16: 04 New
                    +2
                    What nafig marquis is he?!?! The usual Vyatka landowner, idler and tyrant!
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 16: 14 New
                      +4
                      What nafig marquis is he?!?! The usual Vyatka landowner, idler and tyrant!

                      This is an old Italian clan who was forced to leave the north of Italy after Marengo. But during the twenty-five years of his stay in Russia ... perhaps Bazhini Jr. managed to Russify. In any case, the correspondence does not reflect his relationship with the peasants! request
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 March 2020 16: 25 New
                        +3
                        I’ll get to the house and “reflect”! In the spirit of the grandmother A. Olenina - One and a half !!!
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 16: 35 New
                        +3
                        In the spirit of the grandmother A. Olenina - One and a half !!!

                        I see, you and grandmother Poltorachikhin have love letters in the archive? belay But! good sharman, what a sharman! winked
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 March 2020 20: 34 New
                        +4
                        I arrived. I reflect. So:
                        "The Vyatka province, a provincial estate, a manor, on the veranda sits a gentleman in a rocking chair ....
                        Summer, heat, flies ... There is nothing to do ... Boredom !!!
                        - Fedor ... Fedor !!!, Fedka, your foot !!!!
                        “What do you want, master?”
                        - Go, kick the ball.
                        - So ... Barin, he will eat me! This is a wolfhound !!!
                        - Fedor! Come on! Kick it Ball!
                        - Barin ...
                        -Fedka, did you want the gods?!?!?!?
                        A minute later, in the kennel, weeping, oh, mate, barking ...
                        After a minute and a half, the bloodied Fedor appears on the veranda:
                        - Barin ...
                        - And I always told you: "Dogs do not like you, Fedya!" Oh, boring !!!! "
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 22: 12 New
                        +3
                        - And I always told you: "Dogs do not like you, Fedya!" Oh, boring !!!! "

                        There is another option: "Fedka, throw off your trousers, and turn around!"
                        And the answer is: "Marry you, master, you must!" laughing
                        What's up with grandma’s diary? drinks
  • Horon
    Horon 18 March 2020 08: 39 New
    -6
    Blabber and that, there is no paper about the accomplishment of this event - for historians there is no event. Few people there chatted drunk? No chroniclers of drunken talk! If the authorities are satisfied with this action, then no one will bother.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 18 March 2020 08: 57 New
      +7
      C'mon - over in the days of Nikon and Habakkuk, not only because of the spelling of individual words, even prepositions were gnawed to self-immolation and the siege of Solovki. And there was a lot of talk among the people ... Though they cut the tongues.
      And then "Rewrite the whole story" and the people are silent?
      1. Horon
        Horon 18 March 2020 09: 17 New
        -8
        Modern history has been rewritten 3 times! So what? Who will remember that it was rewritten after 500 years? It will remain for the one to be rewritten last and from it and will be repelled. So now, they can only build on what is written in the documents, and if there were other evidence, but they were withdrawn, then this will not be known to us. We can only see non-dockings, if any, and then they can also be interpreted in favor of a particular vision.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol 18 March 2020 09: 25 New
          +8
          Quote: Horon
          Modern history has been rewritten 3 times! So what? Who will remember that it was rewritten after 500 years? It will remain for the one to be rewritten last and from it and will be repelled. So now, they can only build on what is written in the documents, and if there were other evidence, but they were withdrawn, then this will not be known to us. We can only see non-dockings, if any, and then they can also be interpreted in favor of a particular vision.

          you have actually written the following now: "the Novokhronoloz people are once again rewriting history, their correctness cannot be proved, Fomenko and Nosovsky interpret their vision in favor of circulations."
          Bravo. thank
          1. Horon
            Horon 18 March 2020 12: 12 New
            -7
            Old-timers from new-timers differ only in a herd of believers. Judging by the minuses I received, someone's religion was in danger. lol
            1. tlauicol
              tlauicol 18 March 2020 12: 49 New
              +1
              Is history a religion to you? faith does not require evidence?
              here you write: “if there were other testimonies, but they were seized, then this will not be known to us” - is that what? fact? no ! faith, and based on an empty assumption. How do you imagine the process of such a seizure and all this global conspiracy to correct chronicles and millions of artifacts from ocean to ocean?
              1. Horon
                Horon 18 March 2020 14: 49 New
                -2
                If you want to break down the arguments about the laws of human thinking, reduce the conversation to a "world conspiracy"! winked If the powerful can manipulate the history of the past and the facts of the present - this is a fact, evidence of which you can find the sea and a small cart. It would be a desire. History is faith, it is faith, first of all, of the document itself, which is in the hands and impartiality of the person who wrote it. Everyone seeks evidence for himself, depending on the mentality, desire and depending on the opportunities available, again believing someone else and something in their hands and considered documentary evidence. Alas.
                1. tlauicol
                  tlauicol 18 March 2020 15: 19 New
                  +2
                  already warmer.
                  those. history can be interpreted along with the line of the party, give it an assessment, but not rewrite, redo all the annals, artifacts, right? It's impossible. So ?
                  And the story of your family or your personal story - what happened to you or before your eyes a year, a week ago, yesterday - is it faith? Yes, to hell there! This is also knowledge
                  1. Horon
                    Horon 18 March 2020 15: 35 New
                    0
                    your personal story is what happened to you or before your eyes a year, a week ago, yesterday is faith

                    This is a fact only for me, the rest either see their side of the fact, or believe in my interpretation.
                    those. history can be interpreted along with the party line

                    Exactly, but sometimes
                    rewrite-redo all artifact chronicles,

                    It all depends on the available capabilities and the volume of work. In the end, there is no library or archive that has never burned!
                  2. tlauicol
                    tlauicol 18 March 2020 16: 10 New
                    +4
                    the volume of work was often too tough for many millennia and civilizations. about artifacts from beads to pyramids and say nothing. and only the great tartaria all profuched overnight yes
  • Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko
    Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 18 March 2020 11: 28 New
    +2
    I wonder what history faculty you graduated from and where did you get this ?!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 March 2020 11: 30 New
      +4
      Is this a question for me?
  • Alex 1970
    Alex 1970 18 March 2020 07: 47 New
    +9
    The article is definitely a plus, but more than sure that the fans of the “alternative” have all the arguments to one place. This is a kind of fanaticism and can not be etched by anything. Well, about our history, there are a lot of dark spots in any case, and this is what various interpreters of the "new history" use.
    1. Horon
      Horon 18 March 2020 09: 06 New
      -3
      If historical documentary did not discredit itself, then the "alternative specialists" would not have extra arguments. And so ..., history has become an applied science. Applied to the one who writes or orders it.
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 09: 14 New
        +4
        Quote: Horon
        Applied to the one who writes or orders it.

        Once again: if you want to know something - read the source. Start at least with PSRL.
        1. Horon
          Horon 18 March 2020 09: 36 New
          -3
          Again! The problem may be the document itself on which they will rely. If two documents contradict each other or one indicates the bias of the other - whom to believe? This is where the "alternatives" of all stripes and colors appear.
          PS I’m writing not for the sake of argument, but just to present a different point of view.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 10: 08 New
            +4
            Quote: Horon
            one indicates the bias of the other - who to believe?

            Are there only two documents? No artifacts, only two documents? Bad example ... Usually, there are a lot of documents and finds.
            1. Horon
              Horon 18 March 2020 12: 25 New
              +2
              A document can be one at all. Or there are a lot of them and they all have interpretations depending on the source. An example of today's time is Syria! A look from different angles. And now let's move forward 200 years, provided that there was a complete victory of one side with a complete, or significant sweep of documents about the motives and actions of the opposite sides. All that remains is the interpretation of the actions of the opponents by the victorious party. An example of the immediate past: WWII, and it has not been badly rewritten.
              1. kalibr
                18 March 2020 12: 45 New
                +2
                Quote: Horon
                An example of today's time is Syria!

                This is not an example !!! Syria is not a document. This is a lot of different documents, and unexplored.
                1. Horon
                  Horon 18 March 2020 13: 59 New
                  0
                  Syria is an event that is reflected, or will be reflected in documents. And these events will be reflected there, depending on the views of the parties, starting from the opposite of the view, to fakes, which may subsequently be taken as proof of guilt.
                  1. kalibr
                    18 March 2020 17: 37 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Horon
                    And these events will be reflected there, depending on the views of the parties, starting from the opposite of the view, to fakes, which may subsequently be taken as proof of guilt.

                    This means that future historians will have to study them together, that's all.
              2. kalibr
                18 March 2020 12: 46 New
                +3
                Quote: Horon
                An example of the immediate past: WWII, and it has not been badly rewritten.

                Who, in what book, what year, publisher, pp? Just do not give an example of school textbooks from Ukraine.
                1. Horon
                  Horon 18 March 2020 14: 16 New
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Quote: Horon
                  An example of the immediate past: WWII, and it has not been badly rewritten.

                  Who, in what book, what year, publisher, pp? Just do not give an example of school textbooks from Ukraine.

                  Claims of Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, etc. to the USSR instead of gratitude. In the West, the role of the USSR in defeating fascist Germany is generally underestimated; moreover, voices about the USSR as the instigator of WWII are becoming louder. If Russia disappears, then the West will directly blame the USSR at the beginning of the war, and all the dirt on their participation will naturally be cleaned up. Our historians also cleared, under "0".
                  1. kalibr
                    18 March 2020 17: 36 New
                    +2
                    Charon Erebovich! Do not make me think bad of you! I ask you about one thing - look, here's about this: Who, in what book, what year, publisher, page? Just do not give an example of school textbooks from Ukraine. And you answer me about something completely different. Once again: WHERE IN WHICH BOOK, WHICH AUTHOR IN THE WEST, THE ROLE IS UNDERSTANDED and all that jazz. I clearly ask? Do not need verbiage! Specifically: WHO, IN WHICH BOOK, ON WHICH PAGES. Well, a year, the publisher - to the heap. And the lyrics - “voices sound louder” ... leave to speak from the rostrum at the rally.
                    You can’t call it so honestly and tell me: I haven’t read books by foreign authors, I don’t know languages, I use rumors from our journalists and from the TV screen.
                2. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 14: 35 New
                  +5
                  Who, in what book, what year, publisher, pp?

                  Vyacheslav Olegovich, will this suit you? hi

                  and this is by no means a humorous publication! stop
                  Do you know how much such a book costs, sir? wink
                  Do not believe it! At a discount - only 1287 rubles! good wishing to check - here. drinks
                  https://www.labirint.ru/books/725853/
  • betta
    betta 18 March 2020 08: 23 New
    0
    Of course it is very interesting, but not convincing enough. Where does such a round number of 5000 come from? Have all these scripts been checked for authenticity? Why are some archives missing? Is there anything to hide? At least learn about the Pugachev uprising. Is the translation into the modern language correct? Zadornov in his film showed how historians interpret the calling of the Vikings. You can ask many other clarifying questions.
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 08: 33 New
      +3
      Alexander! The simplest thing is to open the PSRL website to see what and how - and start reading. Alone, little by little ... In the order of self-education. And many questions will disappear by themselves!
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 18 March 2020 09: 59 New
      +8
      Quote: betta
      Zadornov in his film showed how historians interpret the calling of the Vikings.

      And how, according to Zadornov, do they interpret it?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. betta
        betta 18 March 2020 11: 10 New
        +4
        Not according to Zadornov but according to the annals. In the annals, the Varangians are mentioned among other Slavic tribes, and it makes sense that Rurik was a Slav. Hence the whole Norman theory of fiction. Watch the movie.
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 18 March 2020 11: 54 New
          +3
          Quote: betta
          In the annals, the Varangians are mentioned among other Slavic tribes, and it makes sense that Rurik was a Slav.

          In the year 6370 (862). They drove the Varangian overseas, and did not give them tribute, and began to rule themselves, and there was no truth among them, and the clan stood up, and they had a wars, and began to fight with each other. And they said to themselves: “Let us look for a prince who would own us and judge rightfully.” And they went overseas to the Varangians, to Russia. Those Varangians were called Rus, as others are called Swedes, and other Normans and Angles, as well as other Gotlanders - like these. Chud, Slovenia, Krivichi and the whole of Russia said: “Our land is great and plentiful, but there is no order in it. Come to reign and rule us. ” And three brothers with their clans were chosen, and took all Russia with them, and they came and sat the eldest, Rurik, in Novgorod, and the other, Sineus, on Beloozero, and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. And from those Varangians the Russian land was nicknamed.
          (PVL translated by D. S. Likhachev)

          Which of the above peoples (Swedes, Normans, Angles, Gotlanders) do you and Zadornov belong to the Slavs?
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 12: 28 New
            +6
            Which of the above peoples (Swedes, Normans, Angles, Gotlanders) do you and Zadornov belong to the Slavs?

            to the German Slavs. According to the scheme given by Mr. A. Samsonov. hi The middle of the left row of nations is the nations requested by you.
            Source: https://topwar.ru/168546-pochemu-russkih-vycherknuli-iz-drevnej-istorii-dorogami-bogov.html
            1. Operator
              Operator 18 March 2020 13: 13 New
              +6
              "German Slavs" - the Ministry of Health warns that a delusional state is transmitted telepathically bully
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 13: 32 New
                +6
                "German Slavs" - the Ministry of Health warns that a delusional state is transmitted telepathically

                Andrey, this is not for me. This is not me choosing a picture for the article. hi there, at the end of the article, Mr. A. Samsonov gave a link to the literature.
                Recommended literature for study: Petukhov Yu. D. Arias. The roads of the gods. M. 2003; Petukhov Yu. D. Antiquities of the Rus. M., 2007; Petukhov Yu. D. History of the Rus. The most ancient era. 40-3 thousand BC e. T. 1-2. M., 2007; Yu. D. Petukhov. Normans. Rus of the North. M, 2005; Yuri Petukhov. Rus of the Ancient East. M., 2007. Petukhov Yu. D. Super-evolution. Superethnos of the Rus. M., 2008; Vasilyeva N.I., Petukhov. Yu. D. Russian Scythia. M., 2006.
                I think this was written by Mr. Petukhov Yu.D. hi
                1. Operator
                  Operator 18 March 2020 13: 42 New
                  +2
                  It was a joke (see the smiley at the end).

                  For your information: Yu.D. Petukhov is an ardent Russophobe, Normanist, professor of the International (former Jewish) Institute in St. Petersburg, a Jew by nationality, according to the current legislation of the Russian Federation, a foreign agent that fully complies with the legal definition (the source of funding is foreign grants).
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 13: 52 New
                    +5
                    It was a joke (see the smiley at the end).

                    joke appreciated! soldier
                    It turns out that "a well-known Russophobe, Normanist, grant-eater and other" (I conditionally quote you hi ), and just a shirt guy historian Yu.D. Petukhov, I quote (now I do not quote you! stop ):
                    The historian Yu. D. Petukhov unraveled the mystery of the millennium; materials of mythoanalysis, linguistics, toponymy, onomastics, anthropology and archeology unambiguously show that the original Slavic Indo-Europeans were Aryans. It was they who, in confusion with the archatropes of Eurasia (pre-ethnic groups), gave birth to all existing and extinct peoples of the Indo-European language family and preserved themselves in direct descendants - Russian-Russians.
                    https://topwar.ru/168546-pochemu-russkih-vycherknuli-iz-drevnej-istorii-dorogami-bogov.html
                    That's it! wink
                    Colleagues, what is "onomastics", who will tell? what
                    1. kalibr
                      18 March 2020 17: 21 New
                      +6
                      This is such a mastic for masturbation, enhancing the sensations!
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 18 March 2020 17: 29 New
                        +4
                        This is such a mastic for masturbation, enhancing the sensations!

                        However, Vyacheslav Olegovich! belay exactly - "Live a century, study a century, and Horatio, as before, did not know much in the world, and now he will learn new things for himself!" good I bow, subtly! drinks
    3. kalibr
      18 March 2020 17: 29 New
      +3
      Quote: betta
      Where does such a round number of 5000 come from?

      Oh, now after the exact number has been called here, this can be said. Alexander! I try especially not to bother with numbers because I hope for human curiosity. That a person will be interested in an “incorrect” figure and he will be useful to look for, but will not expect a plate with a blue border. It is always better for your own mind to find something yourself than to get it ready. And once again it happened. The smart ones themselves found, but those that weren’t ... didn’t search. They are worse!
  • pivnik
    pivnik 18 March 2020 08: 27 New
    -6
    not a fan of alternative devilry, but an article of such demonic nonsense ...
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 08: 31 New
      +4
      Quote: pivnik
      the article is such demonic nonsense.

      And what does it consist of?
  • Boris55
    Boris55 18 March 2020 09: 22 New
    -6
    Good afternoon. Did you hear the thread:
    - On the decree of Peter the Great on the sending from monasteries of ancient manuscripts and printed books of December 1, 20?
    - Catherine II by her decree of December 4, 1783 creates a "Commission for compiling notes on the ancient history of predominantly Russia" under the guidance and supervision of Count A.P. Shuvalov?

    The fact that “our” history was adapted to the new concept of our life arrangement is no secret to anyone. Historians, as people who are bonded and dependent on power, always praise the power that has come and blame the power that has left. We can clearly see how Europe is rewriting the results of the Second World War, how they distort history in the former socialist countries, former independent republics, especially in Ukraine.

    Our past is diverse. Our future is multivariate and it depends on what our past is (in Fig. The red dotted line).



    For myself, I have long concluded: Everything that makes me proud of our past is true, everything else is a lie.
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 09: 26 New
      +10
      Quote: Boris55
      Everything that makes me proud of our past is true, everything else is a lie.

      Probably the only right approach ... But if we apply it, it turns out that as "enemies" did not try, nothing came of their correspondence, but if they attributed something, then ... to our glory. The Germans were first beaten in the Ice Slaughter by 400, and after a hundred years already 500. A trifle, but nice!
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 18 March 2020 09: 49 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        But if we apply it, it turns out that as "enemies" did not try

        History is the second priority of managing humanity and it always works for someone’s interests. Clip in a joke about management priorities:

    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 18 March 2020 10: 06 New
      +5
      Quote: Boris55
      Everything that makes me proud of our past is true, everything else is a lie.

      "Non-study of history as a method of studying history" is a new word in science good
      It just painfully resembles the denial method:

      “Psychologists place the negation in the first place when a person denies frustrating and alarming circumstances, and it is closely associated with a clear distortion of perception of reality and increased suggestibility and credulity. That is, a person using this mechanism to protect his psyche does not only distort his picture of reality , eliminating from it the factors causing fear and frustration, but still recklessly believes everything and everyone that confirms this distorted picture. "
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 18 March 2020 10: 26 New
        0
        Quote: Tlauicol
        "Non-study of history as a method of studying history"

        This is how they distort the truth laughing

        What seeds we sow, such seedlings and get.


        Historians have a greater responsibility for the country than politicians, but it is politicians who dictate their will to historians.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 March 2020 10: 31 New
        +6
        Ivan!
        Exhaustive! hi
    3. Hantengri
      Hantengri 18 March 2020 12: 32 New
      +5
      Quote: Boris55
      For myself, I have long concluded: Everything that makes me proud of our past is true, everything else is a lie.

      I always knew that there was no Russo-Japanese war! laughing
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 14: 38 New
        +5
        Quote: HanTengri
        I always knew that there was no Russo-Japanese war!

        And the Great Patriotic War began at Stalingrad. wassat
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 18 March 2020 14: 50 New
        +1
        Quote: HanTengri
        I always knew that there was no Russo-Japanese war!

        I am proud of our victories. What's bad about it?
        I remember the surrender of France (March 31) - and do you remember? I remember the surrender of Nazi Germany (May 9th) and I also remember the price it came to us. I am proud of the deeds of my ancestors who received for the Japanese: one two George, the other one and I remember my grandfather, who burned down in a tank near Stalingrad incl. no need to sculpt kolyuizuringoya from me.



        Historians shape the future. They must understand this. Irresponsibility is not acceptable.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 20: 24 New
          +5
          Quote: Boris55
          Historians shape the future. They must understand this. Irresponsibility is not acceptable.

          The history of Russia is not entirely a heroic comic book about superheroes. Enough and sad and frankly vile pages.
          Do you offer to distort or hush them up?
    4. Korsar4
      Korsar4 18 March 2020 19: 23 New
      +1
      Without Khayyam, this picture is not commented.

      "For someone who looks inside,
      Evil with good is like gold and silver.
      For both are given for a while.
      For evil and good will soon end "(c).
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 March 2020 09: 49 New
    +4
    You are convincing, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    The conspiracy theory of evil Germans against the history of Russia is not worth a damn.

    PS Our family kept a chronicle for a long time — not a chronicle, but a 17th-century manuscript book: it was written in a monastery, narrated the life of Alexei Mikhailovich and his large-format family, bound in pigskin .....

    Alas, the worms intensely ate it, as a result they handed it over to the museum ....
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 10: 27 New
      +9
      Dear Andrey! Most of all I am amazed by the speculation that the Protestants Germans worked for the Catholic Vatican! And at his direction!
      1. Liam
        Liam 18 March 2020 10: 43 New
        -2
        Quote: kalibr
        Dear Andrey! Most of all I am amazed by the speculation that the Protestants Germans worked for the Catholic Vatican! And at his direction!

        Catholics in Germany and now more than Protestants
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 10: 49 New
          +6
          Well, it started ... not about the speech now. Do you know for sure that Schletser was a Catholic?
          1. Liam
            Liam 18 March 2020 10: 57 New
            -3
            I mean that you need to be as careful as possible and not generalize. The Germans were never polls Protestants.
            1. kalibr
              18 March 2020 12: 41 New
              +3
              I did not ask you all about the Germans, but specifically about Schletser and other German academics in Russia? It seems to be clearly asked ...
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 18 March 2020 10: 47 New
        -2
        Quote: kalibr
        Most of all I am amazed by the speculation that the Protestants Germans worked for the Catholic Vatican!

        When Christianity conquered the World, it adapted the Bible to Aboriginal people. Christianity did not come to an empty place - the peoples already had their own ideas about the World. In this way Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, etc. were formed. The Papal Inquisition established its faith with fire and sword ...

        TV often shows the appeals of the pope to the people and who there are only on the square and Protestants and Catholics, etc ... incl. do not build illusions - the Vatican rules.

        ps
        Somehow during perestroika there was some kind of anniversary of the papal throne, and in connection with this a parade of troops from all over the Christian World took place. Took in this parade and our platoon of airborne forces. On the Internet there is (was) a video of how Gundyaev kisses the hand of the Pope there.
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 12: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: Boris55
          Took in this parade and our platoon of airborne forces. On the Internet there is (was) a video of how Gundyaev kisses the hand of the Pope there.

          I also have a habit in a decent society to kiss women hands, but this does not mean that I am a womanizer ...
      3. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 March 2020 12: 06 New
        -1
        Quote: kalibr
        Most of all I am amazed by the speculation that the Protestants Germans worked for the Catholic Vatican! And at his direction!

        there is a "excuse, they say, everything is possible for money!" recourse

        Your arguments from the article cannot be refuted by anything
  • ee2100
    ee2100 18 March 2020 10: 24 New
    -7
    The article is about nothing. Chronicles can be read, or you can simply believe what others tell, who have read them and understood something for themselves or on request. It is very interesting why the annals are still not translated into modern Russian, although there is a translation into German and English.
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 11: 09 New
      +4
      Quote: ee2100
      It is very interesting why the annals have not yet been translated into modern Russian, although there is a translation into German and English.

      Who tricked you like that? Full of translations, you just have to look at the Internet. And besides, there is a resource where you can do the translation yourself - http://slavenica.com
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 18 March 2020 12: 17 New
        +1
        Thanks, I'll take a look
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 18 New
        0
        Is this a translator site? Maybe there is another version. I get to the house, look
      3. betta
        betta 18 March 2020 15: 23 New
        0
        Vyacheslav, how do you feel about the historian Pyzhikov? He looked at history a little differently, and also studied documents in archives, however he does not interpret the official version.
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 17: 17 New
          0
          Quote: betta
          Vyacheslav, how do you feel about the historian Pyzhikov? He looked at history a little differently, and also studied documents in archives, however he does not interpret the official version.

          And what is such a historian? I am a historian myself and I have enough PSRL ...
          1. betta
            betta 18 March 2020 20: 08 New
            -1
            Meet me. https://vk.com/pyzhikovaleksandr
  • alebor
    alebor 18 March 2020 10: 40 New
    +8
    Interestingly, if you believe the "alternative", then the pests were mainly German historians, and the many Germans who worked in Russia were physicists, mathematicians, chemists, geographers, metallurgists, architects, etc. it seems that they are not accused of sabotage. The same can be said about the huge number of Germans who served in the Russian army and navy. And how many were there in art: in painting, architecture ... And all basically, as it is believed, brought benefits. And only some historians for alternativeists turned out to be pests and enemies of the people on the grounds that Russia, like other countries and peoples of Eastern Europe, entered the historical arena later than the countries and peoples of Western Europe and especially Mediterranean Europe. (as if something younger is certainly worse than what is older. But very often, on the contrary, youth is an advantage. Why not look at our history from this angle?)
    1. kalibr
      18 March 2020 10: 51 New
      +6
      Quote: alebor
      And only some historians for alternativeists turned out to be pests and enemies of the people on the grounds that Russia, like other countries and peoples of Eastern Europe, entered the historical arena later than the countries and peoples of Western Europe and especially Mediterranean Europe.

      By the way, yes! You have noticed it well. It is your honor to observe such.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 18 March 2020 11: 06 New
        -4
        Quote: kalibr
        By the way, yes! You have noticed it well.

        What a kindergarten! laughing
        The fact that they are imposed on us by their view of the history of the World does not mean at all that it is such. Again, history is a management tool. While “our” historians glorify their view of the World, they will always be “enlightened” and we will be “wild and uneducated.” Why do they need it - more or less understandable, but why do you need it?
        1. kalibr
          18 March 2020 12: 37 New
          +3
          Quote: Boris55
          The fact that they are imposed on us by their view of the history of the World does not mean at all that it is such and is

          Are they imposing on us? Where and who?
          1. Vlad world
            Vlad world 13 May 2020 10: 08 New
            0
            Where - in textbooks. Some are official historians. What they do --- They lie and do not blush.
            Example - It is written in all annals - there is no Dress, in three - there is no Dresser.
            And in textbooks and stuff - there is no Order. Adult adults are educated and do not know the difference between the Order and the Order. Alas, they know But they lie and continue to lie. Imposing the myth of the backwardness and barbarism of the Rus.
            As for Fomenko .. How to make sure that a good thought is not discussed and not looked in her direction - It is necessary to bring this idea to Idiocy. So with Fomenko. It’s a good idea that with our Official chronology, what’s wrong - 300-500 years are attributed - and therefore the Slavs suddenly appear brought to Idiocy. The emergence of the empire of Tartaria and other delights.
            The German historians planted the myth of the bringing of statehood from Scandinavia to the type of Swedes. Which was supported by the intelligentsia and Official historians. In Soviet times, it was pressed and at the moment there is a powerful revival of this myth.
            And this is not the only myth thrown by them
            1. kalibr
              13 May 2020 10: 15 New
              +1
              The flow of your consciousness is muddy and testifies to a superficial knowledge of the subject.
            2. kalibr
              13 May 2020 10: 17 New
              +1
              Quote: Vlad-world
              Imposing the myth of the backwardness and barbarism of the Rus.

              But this is generally nonsense. Read the 20-volume archeology of the USSR. And Rybakov’s book “Craft in Russia”
              1. Vlad world
                Vlad world 13 May 2020 13: 35 New
                0
                1 That the myth of the calling of the Varangian Rurik from Scandinavia does not exist. And they "gave" statehood to us, this is not. Yeah.
                2 I have Rybakov’s book. And other books too.
                3. As for - Along - that is silent. To leave aside it is so habitual to defenders of "officialdom" or can not read.
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 18 March 2020 10: 54 New
      -5
      In my opinion, the wrecking of the “Germans” consists in the fact that they, on the basis of documents widely circulated then about the development of history in Europe, created a model for Russia by their own ideas and were held by both themselves and their students. The ruling dynasty liked this model and supported it in every way. All doubts were eliminated. Soviet historiography also adhered to this model. If people now have questions that historians cannot answer or answer incomprehensibly and their answers contradict logic and common sense, then for these people there is a “pogonyalovo” - alternative!
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 12: 36 New
        +1
        Alexander! Once again - Carefully re-read the Tale of Bygone Years. But carefully ...
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 06 New
          -5
          It’s hard to imagine what you are hinting at, but when I read, I’m used to trusting only my perception
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 13: 32 New
            0
            Quote: ee2100
            It’s hard to imagine what you are hinting at, but when I read, I’m used to trusting only my perception

            So read ...
    3. Bar1
      Bar1 18 March 2020 13: 05 New
      -7
      Quote: alebor
      and the many Germans who worked in Russia were physicists, mathematicians, chemists, geographers, metallurgists, architects, etc. seemingly not accused of sabotage


      Well, in the first place, Germany was a Slavic country, Lyutichi, Vedenians, Serbs, Vagra / Vars / Bars lived here. That is, OI pushes the conquest of the Slavs in the 9th century - this is not true. SRIG the holy Roman empire of the Germans conquered the Slavs or what happened there much later. For example, the Great German mathematician and philosopher Leibniz of the 17th century, in fact, was a great Serb / Luzhichan i.e. Slav.


      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Лейбниц,_Готфрид_Вильгельм

      there are still Slavic regions in Germany. And if you look at the local names, ALL GERMANY consists of Slavic names.



      therefore, what happened to the Slavs, and most importantly when these are the primary issues.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 March 2020 15: 02 New
        +5
        Quote: Bar1
        Well, first of all, Germany was a Slavic country,

        What kind of Germany is this? Germany? Or GDR?
        And this man teaches us what to call the Mediterranean Sea and the Vistula ... laughing
        Quote: Bar1
        OI pushes the conquest of the Slavs in the 9th century - this is not true

        It’s not true that OI pushes it.
        The southern coast of the Baltic Sea east of the Jutland Peninsula to the Curonian Spit is valid from approximately the XNUMXth to XNUMXth centuries. occupied by the tribes of the Western Slavs. From the XNUMXth century they began to be pressured from the west by the Germanic tribes, united at that time in the state - the empire of Charlemagne, then, after the collapse of the latter - the East Frankish kingdom. Due to the fact that these same Slavs were at a lower stage of social development than their opponents, they eventually lost the fight with their western neighbors. The last Slavic state formation in the Western Baltic states fell in the XNUMXth century, during the time of Yuri Dolgoruky.
        This is what the "official story" actually says.
        The Slavs, who fell under the power of the Germans, were Germanized, and their tribal nobility completely merged with the German aristocracy, a vivid example of which is the Mecklenburg princely dynasty. The population of the Slavic regions of modern Germany perfectly remembers their roots and is not at all embarrassed by them, and even, in part, is proud of them, emphasizing their "self".
  • Operator
    Operator 18 March 2020 11: 48 New
    -4
    Most of the available Russian annals are copies and summaries of earlier annals (not preserved due to adverse storage conditions).

    Rewriting manuscripts and, moreover, summarizing their scribes on the orders of their superiors, had the technical ability to make corrections in new versions of the annals. But this concerned exclusively political issues - mainly the characteristics of the ancestors of the princes. Historical circumstances not tied to politics were not amended because there were no customers.

    Attempts to correct the history of Ruska Zemlya did not appear for the first time in chronicles, but in 17th-century Swedish propaganda books, commissioned by local monarchs to substantiate Sweden’s claims to the northwestern territories of the Russian Kingdom. Moreover, the authors of the propaganda did not bother at all with the fact that their ravings about the Scandinavian origin of the first Russian dynasty of the Rurikovich did not confirm in any way the Scandinavian sagas - the only source of the history of the Swedes, Norwegians and Danes.

    But which of the Russophobes - Normanists has it ever stopped, because you can always turn the arrows: it’s not in our sagas, but your chronicles are rewritten. And the weight of the Russophobia does not care that most of the sagas have reached the present time in the form of statements - the same censuses and summaries of a later period.

    Nevertheless, in no genuine, rewritten or mixed saga is there a single mention of the super-duper Swede Rurik, his sons and grandchildren, who created in the east of Europe an unparalleled state that is an order of magnitude larger and larger than any of the states of the west of Europe . Which categorically does not correspond to the Scandinavian tradition of compiling sagas.

    But Russophobes continue to eat their cactus.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 18 March 2020 12: 25 New
      +1
      In general, the story with Rurik is very muddy. Theoretically, it could be. But then we must admit that before the Rurik period there was a very comprehensive and deep history of Russia.
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 12: 33 New
        +2
        Well, maybe not comprehensive, but it was unconditional. What, by the way, is also in the Tale ...
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 March 2020 12: 42 New
          0
          We can judge this indirectly. Everything indicates that the history of Russia is deeper and more free or not free. Perhaps what the "alternative" was repeating about was circumcised.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 13: 28 New
            +2
            Quote: ee2100
            Perhaps what the "alternative" was repeating about was circumcised.

            Meaning?
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 36 New
              -3
              The meaning is simple - Western civilization is both older and "correct." This is not my opinion, it's just like a version. My opinion is it makes no sense to speculate. If anyone has documents, then only the Vatican.
              1. Kronos
                Kronos 18 March 2020 13: 55 New
                +1
                The older one is for sure, but there are no right or wrong
              2. kalibr
                18 March 2020 14: 54 New
                +3
                Quote: ee2100
                The meaning is simple - Western civilization is both older and “right”

                This is not visible in any of the annals of either ours or Western. But - "Moscow - Third Rome" is very common here. So whose civilization is more correct?
      2. Operator
        Operator 18 March 2020 13: 06 New
        0
        I had in mind something else - 99% of the existing texts of the Scandinavian sagas are later lists and summaries of the original sources. Nevertheless, they completely lack at least some mention of the natural Swede Rurik of Novgorod and his tribe, who had completely migrated from the Scandinavian peninsula to Lake Ladoga and founded a state that was several times larger in area and population than all the Scandinavian states and their conquests in Britain , Normandy and Sicily in general.

        But for some reason none of the Russophobian Normanists squeals about the "kogovy hand of RezhYma" (C), who extinct from the lists and reports of sagas any mention of such glorious accomplishments of the Scandinavians laughing
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 15 New
          0
          1000% agree!
  • helvetic
    helvetic 18 March 2020 13: 24 New
    0
    I am sure that this article will be useful to those who are just starting to get acquainted with the source studies of the history of Ancient Russia. The only thing - I would recommend to be very careful with any calculations of the citizen I.N.Danievsky (not to be confused with the great N. Ya.)
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 27 New
      0
      What did I. Danilevsky not please you? On the contrary, he is silent a lot.
  • helvetic
    helvetic 18 March 2020 13: 26 New
    +1
    Danilevsky, in particular, is known for his openly Russophobic position regarding the Battle of the Ice, which in his personal discussion this liberal himself described as (summarizing) “I see this, but I don’t want to hear your arguments”
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 18 March 2020 13: 30 New
      +2
      And I have my own vision of this battle, so what?
      1. helvetic
        helvetic 18 March 2020 13: 39 New
        -1
        You see, your vision is probably a person’s view from the side. I dare even suggest that it is based on arguments that have long been confirmed or refuted in the heap of literature that has accumulated on this topic. But when two specially trained people are talking, able to present or challenge relatively recent evidence, one of them refuses to discuss - evidence of either rudeness or the unscientific nature of his position.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 18 March 2020 14: 26 New
          +2
          Rudeness and condescension are not mine. My opinion is based on annals, Livonian chronicles, common sense, logic and knowledge of the area
          1. helvetic
            helvetic 18 March 2020 14: 37 New
            0
            I don’t quite understand what specific position of Danilevsky are you ready to defend (I did not indicate the essence of my claims to him)? As for the components of your opinion, there is not enough description of the nature of special training. you probably didn’t mention out of modesty who attended the courses on chronicles and source studies?
    2. kalibr
      18 March 2020 13: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: helvetic
      position regarding the Battle of the Ice,

      Vladimir, did you read an article about the anniversary of the Battle of Ice in the newspaper PRAVDA of April 5, 1942?
      1. kalibr
        18 March 2020 15: 01 New
        +1
        Is it clear now. Neither you read it, Vladimir, nor all the other experts. It's a pity. There is a lot to learn from ancestors ... including working with sources. Well, Mavrodin’s book "Kievan Rus" probably already read everything?
      2. helvetic
        helvetic 18 March 2020 15: 14 New
        0
        I read about 8 years ago.
        1. helvetic
          helvetic 18 March 2020 15: 19 New
          0
          Now I’m trying to understand that you were so struck by it and realized that you won’t look on the net right away. If it is in electronic form - discard it, I will be glad to talk objectively.
          1. kalibr
            18 March 2020 17: 13 New
            0
            I don’t like to throw off. There will be an article in which her photocopy will be given.
            1. helvetic
              helvetic 18 March 2020 23: 54 New
              +1
              That, in fact, is the whole story. If I were doing this right now or the copyrights didn’t allow it, another question. And so - there is no subject of conversation. For example, you may not be familiar with the relatively recent works of R. A. Sokolov and Yu. V. Krivosheev, which, in my opinion, have worked with sources to envy many.
            2. helvetic
              helvetic 19 March 2020 21: 45 New
              0
              By the way, I still found this issue (our "friends" with Eastview posted it). I will not say that, having re-read it, I became interested. Lay out, by the way, does not work (pdf is not converted to the desired format)
  • smaug78
    smaug78 18 March 2020 13: 27 New
    +2
    Quote: Bar1
    Professor Alexander Pyzhikov — the kingdom to him was heaven, was a man primarily of science and he dug up such a thing — probably the main thing in falsifying history is that Raskolniki were not Christians and it was the 17th century. So whoever Nikon fought with the Calvinis or not the Calvinists is already outside the logic of history.

    You surely read Pyzhikov?))) Will you please us with links?
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 18 March 2020 17: 46 New
      -1
      Quote: smaug78
      You surely read Pyzhikov?))) Will you please us with links?


      while there’s only a link to the video, there he says that people gathered near the Lake Onega in the Paleo-Ostrovsky monastery on the call of not a priest, but a magician for defense against Moscow troops i.e. these are the times of either Alexei Mikhailovich or already Peter.

      watch from 30min.



      but this is not the video. Pyzhikov specifically says that the schismatics / Old Believers are not Christians.
  • helvetic
    helvetic 18 March 2020 13: 28 New
    +1
    The most authoritative contemporary authors on the topic of Russian written culture of the Middle Ages are, in my humble opinion, V.K. Ziborov and A.V. Sirenov.
  • helvetic
    helvetic 18 March 2020 13: 35 New
    0
    Speaking of chronicles, one cannot fail to mention the publications of the facsimile of the Vologda-Perm and a number of other unique chronicles by A.V. Mayorov. You can relate to this person in different ways, but he introduced what so far units have seen. And, by the way, these texts themselves, with their vocabulary and paleography, once again show that they "faked" Russian history throughout Europe))
    1. Operator
      Operator 18 March 2020 15: 20 New
      +1
      For example, I have nothing to do with Alexander Vyacheslavovich Mayorov due to the lack of his monographs on the Internet laughing
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. helvetic
        helvetic 18 March 2020 15: 24 New
        0
        Yes, reference). At the academy, his work is. https://independent.academia.edu/AleksandrMaiorov
        1. Operator
          Operator 18 March 2020 15: 37 New
          +3
          Thank you for the link, but for now I will refrain from acquaintance with the works of A.V. Mayorov due to the lack of topics of Russian history of the 9th century that interest me in them, as well as the requirement of the independent.academia.edu web portal to access my Facebook contact list .
          1. helvetic
            helvetic 18 March 2020 23: 49 New
            0
            This is harder. According to the 9th century there is one dissertation of 14 years. https://disser.spbu.ru/files/disser2/20/aftoreferat/Shorokhov_V.A._avtoreferat.pdf The dissertation itself, alas, is available freely only if you are registered with the RSL. But the same author has articles on the topic where, in principle, all synchronous or ascending to them news about Russia, including one false one, is considered.
            1. kalibr
              19 March 2020 07: 47 New
              +1
              Quote: helvetic
              The dissertation itself, alas, is available freely only if you are registered with the RSL.

              Yes, you are a sadist, Vladimir! Well, who would come up with the idea of ​​registering with some RSL?
          2. helvetic
            helvetic 18 March 2020 23: 58 New
            0
            I can only sympathize with the fact that such an ephemeral obstacle stopped you (you can not share accounts if you want). Many interesting characters are still published by V. Kuleshov, and the Ukrainian archaeologist A. Komar, and many others with their answers to questions of the early history of Russia
            1. Operator
              Operator 19 March 2020 00: 06 New
              +1
              Maybe you will do a review article on the VO in the "History" section on the work of Mayorov and, possibly, Kuleshov and Komar on discussion issues?
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 18 March 2020 13: 35 New
    -1
    The primary sources have nothing to do with it. Discrepancies in the official version are obvious and official explanations are inconclusive. And then an “alternative” story comes to the aid of officialdom. All fans of the works of Nosovsky and Fomenko should have been alerted by the circulation of their books 20 years ago. Who is the customer? Where did they get such a resource for promotion and popularization? The same applies to the case of Zadornov. His film was shown on the federal television channel. So the dilemma is false. The function of alternative specialists is to confuse a person who wants to understand "what really happened" and eventually put into his head all the same postulates of the official version, only in a different way
  • Operator
    Operator 18 March 2020 15: 04 New
    +1
    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    materials of mythoanalysis, linguistics, toponymy, onomastics [name], anthropology

    All of the above refers to the field of subjective knowledge, only information labels in the DNA of bone remains (haplogroups and their subclades - mutations in time) are objective in combination with the location of the remains.

    Arias (haplogroup R1a), who came to Europe 12000 thousand years and went away (in terms of carriers of the Black Sea subclade) 4000 years ago to India, are not the first, but the only Indo-European people - migrations of carriers of other European haplogroups R1b, I1, I2, E1, G1 and Y2 until the expedition of Alexander the Great to India was not found. At the same time, the Macedonians did not have any cultural, linguistic or religious influence on the Indians, who formed ethnically under the influence of the Aryans 1000 years earlier.

    Therefore, there are no other Indo-Europeans than the Aryans and their direct descendants, the Slavs, but only carriers of Indo-European languages ​​- hybrids of Aryan Sanskrit with the tribal languages ​​of Dravids, Erbins, Illyrians and other inhabitants of Eurasia in the area of ​​Aryan migration.

    PS Aryas (Arias), Slovenes (Slavs), Rus (Rusichs) - true self-names, known from written sources.
    Slavians - crumpled boots laughing
  • BAI
    BAI 18 March 2020 22: 13 New
    +1
    In addition to the annals, there is another source of information, the truth about everyday life, but which cannot be falsified - birch bark letters.
    1. helvetic
      helvetic 19 March 2020 00: 01 New
      +1
      Not to mention the data of epigraphy, sphragistics and numismatics, dendrochronology ....
  • Diviz
    Diviz April 23 2020 09: 51 New
    0
    I want to learn to read these chronicles, and not learn English. If we take that this writing arose from 144 runes. Like in a song And I understand that I'm flying again.