Myths and oddities about the Luftwaffe aces


Thousands of books and articles have been written about World War II. It would seem that everything is described with utmost scrupulousness: from local battles to the greatest battles, from the actions of individual regiments to the tactical and strategic principles implemented by the military leaders. However, the theme of that war is so vast that issues often become not less, but more.


One of the questions is related to German aviation. In particular, why, in the presence of 236 Luftwaffe aces, from which two full-fledged divisions could be formed, the final reign in the sky for the Third Reich came to an end. And this despite the fact that for the entire anti-Hitler coalition there was only one pilot who managed to gain more than 60 victories over the enemy - Ivan Kozhedub.

The material on the Sky Artist channel asks questions about why the German aces could not resist the usual Soviet pilots, for example, in the Kuban, having lost the battle in the sky? Why were German aces unable to protect Dresden and Hamburg from the bombing?

From video:

It would seem that such a huge advantage in ace pilots was supposed to affect the course of the war. But he didn’t. Moreover, Germany suffered the greatest losses in flight composition among all the warring states in the European theater of operations.

The video examines the oddities and myths associated with German aviation during the Second World War:
Photos used:
German military archives
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  1. Mikhail m 29 February 2020 13: 57 New
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    There is no video. request
    1. Range 29 February 2020 14: 04 New
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      If the Western empire of LIES writes history, then oddities and myths are inevitable.
    2. fox_rudy 29 February 2020 14: 07 New
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      Try to follow the link
    3. Fitter65 29 February 2020 14: 15 New
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      Quote: Michael m
      There is no video. request

      SAME PROBLEM
      1. Basil50 29 February 2020 16: 04 New
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        The way the Germans lie, that with Goebels today, long ago surpassed countries with democratic regimes.
        The Germans lie about WWII from despair, except for cattle, moreover, they are not very smart, the Germans do not even look in their own eyes. The Germans lie not to us, they lie to us in justification of the bestiality of their fathers, mothers, grandfathers and grandmothers.
    4. Malyuta 29 February 2020 21: 43 New
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      Quote: Michael m
      There is no video.

      And you go to the channel Sky Artist
  2. fox_rudy 29 February 2020 14: 06 New
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    https://youtu.be/JcE4B1OmXzs
  3. Same lech 29 February 2020 14: 07 New
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    that for the entire anti-Hitler coalition there was only one pilot who managed to gain more than 60 victories over the enemy - Ivan Kozhedub.

    I don’t agree ... Pokryshkin has 59 official victories and there are several other unaccounted for Luftwaffe planes that he gave to his comrades.
    1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 14: 27 New
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      Quote: The same Lech
      I do not agree ... Pokryshkin has 59 official victories

      Nikolay Gulaev is the most effective 2MV pilot.
      https://news.tut.by/culture/674093.html
      1. DMB 75 29 February 2020 15: 15 New
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        Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub-shot down not 62, but as many as 107 enemy aircraft, five of which belonged to the US Air Force.
        Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin-In total, he has 59 personally shot down planes and 6 in the group. However, this is only official statistics, because, as the commander of an air regiment, and then the air division, Pokryshkin sometimes gave down shot planes to young pilots to encourage them in this way.
        Nikolai Dmitrievich Gulaev-shot down 57 aircraft in person and 3 in the group. Gulaev, when he ran out of ammunition, took one enemy aircraft to ram.
        Grigory Andreyevich Rechkalov-Altogether shot down 56 aircraft in person and 6 in the group. Perhaps, none of our other ace personally has such a variety of types of downed aircraft as Rechkalov, these are bombers, and attack aircraft, and reconnaissance, and fighters, and transporters, and relatively rare trophies - “Savoy” and PZL -24.
    2. Malyuta 29 February 2020 22: 04 New
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      Quote: The same Lech
      I don’t agree ... Pokryshkin has 59 official victories and there are several other unaccounted for Luftwaffe planes that he gave to his comrades.

      Alexey! hi The thing is that in personal victories the Soviet pilots were recorded exclusively for the downed enemy squad, moreover, confirmed from the ground and by the group pilots, or other witnesses of the air battle. Enemy planes were not counted in the personal account, crashed, but having left the front line, or having left the battle. In addition, there was still a graph of planes shot down in a group, they also did not go into the personal account. But the Germans recorded on their personal account everything sold by the group, and those crashed on the ground, and the wounded who went over the front line, and were simply damaged and left the battle due to technical problems. Hence, such fantastic personal accounts of German pilots, which do not coincide with the real losses of the Red Army Air Force.
    3. Mordred79 1 March 2020 00: 12 New
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      Do not forget the Su-2, in which he killed the gunner in his first flight, and the SB-2, which shied away from him (Pokryshkin flew on the captured Bf-109), and crashed when forced. Source "Sky of War". True, in the book about the Su-2 arrow, the marshal modestly kept silent, but then Pstygo later recalled
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Ponchik78 2 March 2020 19: 11 New
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        Not killed, but wounded. He did not keep silent in his book.
        1. Mordred79 3 March 2020 21: 43 New
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          Three bullets in the heart did it hurt? You see, if the shell hits your head, you don’t even notice.
          https://russian7.ru/post/pochemu-as-aleksandr-pokryshkin-v-pervy/
  4. novel66 29 February 2020 14: 20 New
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    Why were German aces unable to protect Dresden and Hamburg from the bombing?
    because it is stupidly impossible to stop the raid of hundreds of bombers if they go at high altitude and correctly observe the order
    1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 14: 30 New
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      Quote: novel xnumx
      because it’s stupidly impossible to stop the raid of hundreds of bombers

      The attacks on Moscow were taken and stopped.
      1. novel66 29 February 2020 14: 31 New
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        the raids were not so ... 1000 bombers such as fortress horseradish would have stopped
        1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 14: 46 New
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          "In July 1941 - January 1942, only 229 of the 7146 enemy aircraft broke through to the capital"
          On the contrary, the Moscow Air Defense Forces forced the Germans to act in small groups at night.
          1. novel66 29 February 2020 14: 47 New
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            well, apparently the Germans had weaker air defense ... request
            1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 14: 52 New
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              Quote: novel xnumx
              well, apparently the Germans had weaker air defense ... request

              Apparently, Goering’s “vaunted aces” simply “pissed off” to attack the tight formation of snarling “bombers”. It's not for wounded animals chasing to increase personal accounts.
              1. novel66 29 February 2020 15: 10 New
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                yes they and our dense systems didn’t attack very much
                1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 15: 29 New
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                  Well, this is how to say, the numbers say the opposite. Our pilots worked, but the German hunted.
                  1. novel66 29 February 2020 15: 34 New
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                    that’s what it was, even Ilya, who entered the defensive circle, were not of interest to them, because it was dangerous ... although the "rammeggers" were crazy against the Anglo-Saxons, but their efforts were not enough ..
                    1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 15: 45 New
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                      I "trochi" did not correctly understand your comment above. If the word "they" is omitted, then the meaning of the utterance is completely different. Oh, it's a sin to work on Saturdays.
                      1. novel66 29 February 2020 16: 36 New
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                        yes buddy !! do not!! drinks
                  2. smart ass 29 February 2020 21: 11 New
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                    Do not talk, the Germans were pissed off and demented, but we are strong and beautiful
              2. Ingenegr 29 February 2020 16: 18 New
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                I agree completely. To demolish a fighter is much simpler than a bomber in combat order. In the memoirs of Soviet pilots, this moment is noted. The main task they have always considered "breaking the ranks of the bombers." Often slipped by "a pair of floppy messers" and "bristling system of junkers." I do not think from scratch.
              3. smart ass 29 February 2020 21: 05 New
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                See aircraft production statistics and everything will become clear
          2. Stirbjorn 29 February 2020 15: 05 New
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            Quote: vvvjak
            On the contrary, the Moscow Air Defense Forces forced the Germans to act in small groups at night.

            The Germans did not have strategists. Although Moscow’s air defense was very strong, the Germans recognized this. It's a pity Leningrad is so unlucky
            1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 15: 10 New
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              Quote: Stirbjorn
              The Germans did not have strategists

              Why strategists? The range of their bombers was quite enough to reach Moscow. They remembered about strategists only when the whole industry was beyond the Urals.
              1. novel66 29 February 2020 15: 35 New
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                when the whole industry was beyond the Urals.

                whoo! for this and strategists !!
              2. smart ass 29 February 2020 21: 13 New
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                Then what about flight altitude, payload, survivability, and the number of firing points is different ... but how do you know such little things
            2. novobranets 29 February 2020 15: 45 New
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              Quote: Stirbjorn
              The Germans did not have strategists.

              Heinkel He 177 is a German serial strategic bomber. Could deliver 1000 kg payload to a distance of 6600 km. Over 800 cars were built.
              1. Stirbjorn 29 February 2020 16: 21 New
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                Quote: novobranets
                Heinkel He 177 is a German serial strategic bomber. Could deliver 1000 kg payload to a distance of 6600 km. Over 800 cars were built.
                The Germans themselves called him a "flying lighter", to a more or less reliable state was brought to the 44th year, when the war was already lost. Absolutely in all respects inferior to the American B-17 and B-24 - bomb load, flight altitude and protective weapons. hi
                1. novobranets 29 February 2020 16: 36 New
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                  I agree with you, no outstanding characteristics, compared to at least the Yu-88 (although he is not a strategist), I'm not talking about the B-17, the Libererator, etc., the 177th did not. I just wanted to say that the Germans still had strategists, although they did not leave any trace in history. hi
          3. Vogel 29 February 2020 18: 46 New
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            Do you compare German medium and Anglo-American heavy bombers? The arrogant Saxons had a lot more rifle points with heavy machine guns. While they were not flying in dense formation, they fell quite easily.
            But the Germans had only Heinkeli machine guns, by the way, there were more Junkers guns loaded in the caliber.
            If the Germans used analogues of fortresses in the same quantities, the result would be different. Despite the fact that the air defense of Moscow was the most powerful of the allied.
            And the naglitses flew at night, do not forget. This is when Cologne, Hamburg and other cities burned.
      2. AU Ivanov. 29 February 2020 15: 34 New
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        The Germans did not have strategic bombers. Wrong heights, weaker defensive weapons, lower speed, lower machine survivability compared to Anglo-American. And the number of them was less.
        1. Baloo 29 February 2020 15: 59 New
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          AS Ivanov. (Andrey) The Germans did not have strategic bombers

          Once upon a time in the local press there was a note about how the Chekists deceived the Germans and forced them to bomb an empty field instead of the Kazan powder factory at the beginning of the war.
        2. vvvjak 29 February 2020 16: 05 New
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          Well, if they were, then ours would be riveted by thousands of high-altitude MiGs, and not Yaki. All the same, they would have fought back.
          1. Stirbjorn 29 February 2020 16: 28 New
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            Quote: vvvjak
            Well, if they were, then ours would be riveted by thousands of high-altitude MiGs, and not Yaki. All the same, they would have fought back.

            Mig's armament was weak against a normal strategist. Some machine guns, but for now they’ll come close to the ranks from the whole ranks. The most dangerous for them was the Me-262, with rockets and guns, at great speed, but when the Germans mastered them, the war was already lost. Galland, in his memoirs, described in detail the struggle with strategists at all stages. When the Yankees Mustangs appeared distant, to cover their bombers, German fighters became very tight.
          2. smart ass 29 February 2020 21: 16 New
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            It’s a pity that you weren’t in the years of the World War, you would have thrown the Germans over with caps of weak-minded fools and deeds for 5 minutes
            1. vvvjak 29 February 2020 21: 48 New
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              Perhaps you would have done much faster if you proclaimed the Fuhrer your lord. Only that would not help.
          3. AU Ivanov. 1 March 2020 09: 49 New
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            Thousands failed. Lack of engines. Lack of weapons. And the MIG had weak weapons.
    2. Malyuta 29 February 2020 22: 09 New
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      Quote: novel xnumx
      because it is stupidly impossible to stop the raid of hundreds of bombers if they go at high altitude and correctly observe the order

      Your statement is completely wrong! If it was as you say, then Moscow, Leningrad, Murmansk, London would have been wiped off the face of the earth! These are examples of the correct organization of air defense.
  5. knn54 29 February 2020 15: 23 New
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    The Germans always attacked solo planes, or with a SIGNIFICANT advantage, which ended by 1943. When alerting: Attention. In the air Pokryshkin EVERYONE preferred to make “legs” or whatever the pilots did.
    Please note, the Germans indicate the number of victories, not downed planes.
    They had a point system: ding motor — one point. He shot down four motor aircraft, for example, TB-3, and received the same points as for 4 fighters.
    Well, there was no one to defend Dresden — the losses on the Eastern Front were colossal.
    For posts even their technicians-EQUAL Nazi "aces" were not remembered. I even had to disband a whole squadron from Rommel. The truth was the rewards and "achievements".
    1. Alexey Z 29 February 2020 19: 59 New
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      That's right, 4 points for one 4-engine plane, and not as usual they say that planes shot down by engines were considered. The number of points did not equal the number of downed aircraft.
    2. Malyuta 29 February 2020 22: 12 New
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      Quote: knn54
      Please note, the Germans indicate the number of victories, not the downed planes. They had a point system: ding engine — one point. He shot down four motor aircraft, for example, TB-3 and got the same points as for 4 fighters. Well, defend Dresden there was no one — the losses on the Eastern Front were colossal. Even their technicians-EQUAL Nazi “aces” didn’t remember the postscript. They even had to disband Rommel’s whole squadron. The truth was that the awards and “achievements” were left.

      That's right, such a form of accounting for downed planes was also present in the German Air Force, and the losses by the end of the war and in equipment and flight personnel were really huge! By the way, according to the loss of flight personnel during the 2nd MV, we occupy only 5th place.
    3. mvg
      mvg 1 March 2020 08: 01 New
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      losses on the eastern front were colossal

      Well, the British and Americans were just before the statistics.
      https://vikond65.livejournal.com/493077.html
      This is for you to education, statistics of losses on the Western and Eastern fronts. Actually 2/3 of the Luftwaffe aircraft fought in the West. The USSR could not put up 700 strategists under the guise of 300 Mustangs. And demolish entire cities. By the end of the war, the Soviets had as many as 40 distant bombers, of which most of them were fallen and rebuilt English / Americans. And a couple of Pe-8s.
      PS: Well, the ratio of losses from the Krivosheev's guide to fighters. It is also very informative, for Uri patriots. And this is despite the experience of Halkin-Gol, Finnish and Spain. And more than a double advantage in aviation at the beginning of the war.
  6. AU Ivanov. 29 February 2020 15: 39 New
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    Different tactics of using fighter aircraft. Ours, in most cases, used fighters to escort attack aircraft. They were not required to shoot down the enemy - their task was to cover. No, of course: knocked down - well done, but the main thing was to keep those undercover.
    1. Malyuta 29 February 2020 22: 15 New
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      Quote: AU Ivanov.
      Different tactics of using fighter aircraft. Ours, in most cases, used fighters to escort attack aircraft. They were not required to shoot down the enemy - their task was to cover. No, of course: knocked down - well done, but the main thing was to keep those undercover.

      Exactly so, and even for losses from the escorted, disciplinary punishments were introduced up to the tribunal.
  7. Ros 56 29 February 2020 16: 00 New
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    Almost all information about a solid number of victories does not correspond to reality. That there is no confirmation, although a fact does occur, then I gave it to my fellow soldiers, but to whom the order, or even the Hero, was not enough. It happened in different ways and the pilots themselves spoke about it and saw nothing shameful in this. This is me about ours.
    I don’t know about the Germans, and I don’t want to know, but the fact that they frolic from 41 to 43 in our skies is a fact, and you won’t lose it. At least I got the impression of the information that I had.
    1. knn54 29 February 2020 18: 31 New
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      But in vain you do not want. In his memoirs, the gunsmith of one of the aces was shocked when he learned about two shot down IL-2s. Moreover, the floor of the tape was spent. Usually (in a successful scenario), a ribbon would leave for one flying tank.
      When asked where the planes were, the pilot answered, at the bottom of Ladoga. Of course they did.
      By the way, one of the tactical shortcomings of our pilots at the beginning of the war is the flight in triples, and not in pairs, as in the case of the Germans.
      1. Ros 56 1 March 2020 08: 22 New
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        This is known to everyone who is even a little bit interested in aviation. And that the lion's share of our aircraft was destroyed almost in the first two days of the war, too, is no secret. And our guys with a raid of thirty (this is still good) hours, against German newcomers with a raid of 150-200 hours are well known.
        Just what is the point today to talk about it, the affairs of bygone days.
        Over the course of our lives, we have received so much information that we made up a certain picture for ourselves and that the evil liberals would not weave there, for me personally this will not change anything.
    2. Vogel 29 February 2020 18: 48 New
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      Nobody disputes the victory of Joseph Priller for some reason.
    3. Malyuta 29 February 2020 22: 17 New
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      Quote: Ros 56
      I don’t know about the Germans, and I don’t want to know, but the fact that they frolic from 41 to 43 in our skies is a fact, and you won’t lose it

      In the first month and a half of the war, more than 600 Luftwaffe aircraft were shot down by Soviet pilots.
      1. AU Ivanov. 1 March 2020 09: 52 New
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        We had little to bring down, it was still necessary to prove the downing. For every shot down the pilot was paid money. You can prove the regiment, komeske, but the words of the finance chief were few - we need strong evidence. A lot of victories were simply not counted.
  8. Vladimir Mashkov 29 February 2020 16: 41 New
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    Nothing strange about it. I do not want to repeat myself, I recently described this in detail in an article here on Military Review. To be brief, the "expert experts" they had different ("different systems" yes ) And they were engaged in exclusively free hunting, choice and the simplest knocking down of the weakest and home posts (unexpected attack WITHOUT a battle and rapid flight). Experts (and all German pilots) in every possible way avoided EQUAL (not to mention the numerical majority and enemy skill) battles and opponents. And the Soviet aces (many of whom shot down much more than the counted number) were mainly engaged in guarding and escorting (ground troops, attack aircraft and bombers), not always not only fighting, but even meeting the enemy. Whose strategy and tactics were better showed the result of World War II.
    And beautiful pseudo-historical books and memoirs in the West are able to write. We also have howling and nagging them.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 February 2020 17: 37 New
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      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
      Whose strategy and tactics were better showed the result of World War II.

      I myself didn’t do any serious aviation work, but there are many more questions than answers. For example, I could not answer the question of why the Soviet Air Force did not achieve air supremacy almost right up to the very end of the war, and why German planes went over our heads in conditions when, in separate periods, up to 2/3 of the fighter German aviation was diverted to cover the metropolis from raids. Do not get me wrong, I do not want to "roll a barrel" at our warriors of heaven. I really don't understand
      1. Sergey Valov 29 February 2020 21: 34 New
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        “I really don’t understand” - the reasons for the sea, ranging from the best training of German pilots, ending with tactics of application. The Germans very easily concentrated aviation in the right place, achieving local superiority in the air. The planes of the Germans were mostly better than ours. The tactics that we criticized very often in our country for destroying an enemy from an ambush were possible for some reason only on the Eastern Front. Backfill question - why? My father, who studied at the flight school since 1944, told me about the quality of the training of our pilots. God forbid that the front get caught with such preparation. And when did we learn to bomb from a dive? God forbid by the end of 1944 and that, by no means all. And how many planes did the Germans and Allies put together? And if relative to the eastern front - how many airplanes did the Red Army have through the Second World War and how many Germans and their allies went through the eastern front? And they attributed not only the Germans, pee everything, and ours too. Father told how ours easily did it, since he served in Germany since 1947.
    2. shura7782 29 February 2020 23: 20 New
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      Experts (and all German pilots) in every possible way avoided EQUAL (not to mention the numerical majority and enemy skill) battles and opponents
      . This statement is not objective. You should be aware that there were experts - the "champions" of whom they repeatedly shot down. Consequently, they also fought aerial battles. So that everything depended on the task: - free hunting, escort, patrolling the area, intercepting a group, etc. From here, the tactics of battle are different. Avoiding a hunt after an unsuccessful attack or fleeing a group battle area is not the same thing. I read your last article. The topic is very familiar to me as also dealt closely with this issue. It is felt that they shoveled a lot of material, and most importantly, that they tried to decompose. But what do we have in the balance? As for the methods of calculating the victories of the Germans today - we have only guesses and dubious assumptions. Therefore, unfortunately, the question remains open. I got the impression from the last post that your interest in this topic ended. And I do not.
  9. Pavel73 29 February 2020 17: 05 New
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    Well, according to the most productive German ace, Erich Hartmann (shot down 347 Soviet aircraft), their whole secret is the hunt for the weakest and most inexperienced pilots. He attacked from an ambush, shot down and immediately left. Therefore, despite the seemingly devastating score, they still lost the war.
  10. Vladimir Mashkov 29 February 2020 17: 46 New
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    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
    Whose strategy and tactics were better showed the result of World War II.

    I myself didn’t do any serious aviation work, but there are many more questions than answers. For example, I could not answer the question of why the Soviet Air Force did not achieve air supremacy almost right up to the very end of the war, and why German planes went over our heads in conditions when, in separate periods, up to 2/3 of the fighter German aviation was diverted to cover the metropolis from raids. Do not get me wrong, I do not want to "roll a barrel" at our warriors of heaven. I really don't understand

    Firstly, you are wrong. Secondly, read my article (it’s very easy to get out) and watch Potapov’s videos. You will understand a lot. Treat all Western and some Russian "experts" critically! And do not take seriously the fantasies of German aces! yes
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk 29 February 2020 18: 00 New
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      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
      Treat all Western and some Russian "experts" critically!

      I prefer to study the history of the Second World War according to our and German data :))))
      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
      Secondly, read my article (it’s very easy to get out) and watch Potapov’s videos.

      I read the article, but there is no answer to my questions. I repeat, I never deeply dug the aircraft, but even I know about the fraud in the personal accounts of the Germans and that our system of "counting down" was much more strict. So for many years, the "super accounts" of German aces have not cut my eyes. The Germans, of course, had a certain number of high-class pilots, fighting from 1939 to 1945 it was impossible not to grow up, well, we had such.
      But this does not answer the questions why the same Popel’s memoirs describe how our troops bury fuel supplies in the ground (in tanks, of course) before the operation, so that they would not be bombed from the air, and the same Americans would open such warehouses - Germans simply could not break through it. The same Popel has many descriptions of how our tank divisions were attacked by the "Rapporteurs" or other German bombers, even in 1944, and there are a lot of such memories.
      1. strannik1985 29 February 2020 18: 12 New
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        At the same Popel

        It would be surprising that in the TBR TK arr. 1944-1945 a company of ZPU-9 units (in the 45 and 16-18 corps of the 37-mm memory), in the tank battalion of the BrTD of the US Army, the state of 12.02.1944 26 KKP.
  11. Uncle Izya 29 February 2020 17: 58 New
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    1. The "Stalin Falcon" Arkhipenko fascist ace number 2 repose from one line
    He went through the whole war - from the first to the last day. In May 1944, he shot down the second most successful pilot ace Luftwaffe, who had 301 air victories on his account. And in 1956, he signed and handed the diploma to the graduation of the Chkalovsky Aviation School to Yuri Gagarin.

    In a small village of Vorotynsky village council of Bobruisk district, it has long been a few people, most of the population are summer residents. Of the old-timers of the Avsimovichs, only Raisa Vasilievna Stelmak. At least she says so herself. Lives here all his conscious 77-year life. Her house stands on the street, which was named after fellow countryman Vladimir Parakhnevich. I heard about the Heroes-fellow villagers, but I have never seen them, and nothing remained of the little hut where the pilot once lived. To find his closest relatives, I had to “walk” through the village, through Bobruisk and go to Moscow. Only there I found Svetlana, the native granddaughter of the Hero of the Soviet Union Fyodor Fedorovich Arkhipenko, with whom I managed to communicate very soulfully and meaningfully.
    And this is how to understand what kind of aces the diamonds are which the Soviet pilot put in line
  12. Aleks2000 29 February 2020 23: 51 New
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    And I don’t have a video.
    And links too.
  13. Vladimir Mashkov 1 March 2020 11: 12 New
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    Quote: shura7782
    Experts (and all German pilots) in every possible way avoided EQUAL (not to mention the numerical majority and enemy skill) battles and opponents
    . This statement is not objective. You should be aware that there were experts - the "champions" of whom they repeatedly shot down. Consequently, they also fought aerial battles. So that everything depended on the task: - free hunting, escort, patrolling the area, intercepting a group, etc. From here, the tactics of battle are different. Avoiding a hunt after an unsuccessful attack or fleeing a group battle area is not the same thing. I read your last article. The topic is very familiar to me as also dealt closely with this issue. It is felt that they shoveled a lot of material, and most importantly, that they tried to decompose. But what do we have in the balance? As for the methods of calculating the victories of the Germans today - we have only guesses and dubious assumptions. Therefore, unfortunately, the question remains open. I got the impression from the last post that your interest in this topic ended. And I do not.

    You're not right. And inattentive. And you read, excuse me, superficially, without thinking. They did not understand my current comment, they did not understand the article. Although you said you read my article (by the way, the editorial staff re-edited its title, I don’t really like the current one, I would - if only with these words - I called "Ases of the Third Reich. The phenomenon of" huge accounts and unprecedented skill ").
    Where did I say that German experts (many of them were Aces) and all German pilots refused to fight (especially having an advantage)? There wasn’t that! They VERY loved the advantage fights! But BATTLES without an advantage - always avoided. All pilots in memoirs write about this. You, apparently a little (or inattentively) read them.
    And the leading German experts, therefore, were shot down repeatedly in the battles FORCED for them, because they were weaker than the Soviet aces!
    And about the tasks you did not understand. No matter what the task of the German fighters, the experts ALWAYS had one task - free hunting and shooting down WITHOUT a fight (fell-hit-fled).
    And about counting victories and “victories” you are NOT right. Yes, it’s impossible to count German victories: they destroyed part of the archives and lie. But OBJECTIVE researchers (both ours and Western - they are, although few) counted them with a sufficient degree of reliability.
    Most of all you were mistaken about the fact that I “dumped” the topic and forgot about it. I don’t know how the other authors, but I’m constantly “sitting” in it. Now I’m thinking about how to fix my mistake that I didn’t indicate the primary sources. But there were so many !!!
    1. Stirbjorn 1 March 2020 11: 40 New
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      Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
      And the leading German experts, therefore, were shot down repeatedly in the battles FORCED for them, because they were weaker than the Soviet aces!

      They shot down everyone, of the same Pokryshkin 2 times, it seems to me that this is not an indicator of pilot skill at all - rather a testament to the intensity of battles. The element of luck is always present when the pilot participates in battles regularly. The one who is stronger then won - this is the main criterion for you! In general, I would single out three fighter therapists, among the entire mass of warring fighters - Pokryshkin, Melders and Galland. Because they were tactical fighters who left their mark on military affairs and influenced the air battles in a global sense, and not just successful gan shooters with a bunch of victories.
  14. Jarserge April 26 2020 16: 01 New
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    Western "civilization" her name is a lie