Combat aircraft. It seems like an American flying coffin

Combat aircraft. It seems like an American flying coffin

He was called the "flying coffin." On the one hand, it seems to be fair, on the other hand, it is completely drawn out. Let's try to figure it out, because many planes that they called coffins turned out to be completely different.


What about the Devastator. Back in 1912, US Rear Admiral Fiske patented (oh, these patents!) The method of torpedo attack of ships from the air.

And two years later, specially created torpedo bombers underwent baptism of fire in naval battles of the First World War. It is clear that the idea was good, because even a low-speed biplane bookstore easily caught up with the fastest cruiser or destroyer of that time. 120 km / h was more than enough.


It so happened that by the beginning of the 30s in the marine aviation US torpedo bombers not only took root, they became the main weapons aircraft carriers.

As a rule, these were biplanes with an open cockpit and a crew of three people: pilot, navigator, scorer and gunner.

In addition to the "clean" T-class torpedo bombers, the U.S. aircraft carriers were equipped with double "B" class marine bombers.

And in the summer of 1934 the aviation command fleet proposed to develop a universal deck-based combat aircraft, received the designation "TV". "Torpedo-bomber", that is, a torpedo bomber. A universal attack aircraft, the load of which could be changed depending on the requirements of the situation.

In the struggle for the order came together three firms. The first, the Gray Lakes, introduced the very archaic, even for those times, model of the XTBG-1 brace biplane. Of course, the military did not like such an aircraft.


The second was more advanced Hell designers. Their version of the twin-engine monoplane XTBH-1 was more interesting, but did not fit in speed characteristics.

In the end, the winner was the Douglas company and its single-engine torpedo bomber XTBD-1. Douglas received an order for the construction of the aircraft, and, I must say, very reasonably.


In general, a lot of numerals “first” are applied to this machine.

The world's first monoplane torpedo bomber with a closed cockpit. For 1934 - very progressive. The only legacy of the past was the corrugated duralumin wing sheathing and canvas-trimmed steering surfaces.


The crew consisted of three people. Pilot, navigator, scorer and radio operator. They were seated one after another in a common cabin, closed by a long lamp with movable sections. This scheme later became a classic for American attack aircraft.


The folding of wings, which was used before, was first mechanized by applying a hydraulic drive of the mechanism. On the biplanes of that time, the wings also folded, but the wing boxes pressed against the sides of the fuselage, and for the monoplane, they came up with a more economical way in which the consoles went up and folded over the cockpit.


As a power plant, the Pratt-Whitney XP-1830-60 air-cooled engine with a power of 900 hp was chosen. Two wing fuel tanks contained 784 liters of gasoline.

Defensive armament initially consisted of two 7,62 mm machine guns. One machine gun in the ring turret was controlled by a radio operator gunner, defending the rear hemisphere. In a normal flight, this machine gun was sunk into the fuselage, and if necessary, the shooter opened special flaps from above, pushed his section of the flashlight in the direction of travel, thus preparing for firing.

The second machine gun was synchronous and was located in the fuselage to the right of the engine, a pilot fired from it.

Subsequently, with the beginning of combat operation, on some machines a rear mounted Browning spark of 7,62 mm caliber, and part of the aircraft had two synchronous 12,7 mm machine guns.


The Bliss Leavitt torpedo Mk.KhII (908 kg) was 4,6 m long and 460 mm in diameter, but the outdated Mk.VIII could be suspended if necessary. An interesting point is that not a torpedo was created for the aircraft, but the aircraft was created for the use of a specific torpedo.

There were two holders for a pair of bombs of 500 pounds (227 kg) on ​​each side of the torpedo's suspension.


It is clear that with the bomb version the torpedo was not suspended. Instead of two 227-kg bombs, 12 bombs of 45 kg could be suspended on the underwing holders. The torpedo was fired by the pilot using a telescopic sight, and the navigator was in charge of the bombs, dropping them with the Norden Mk.XV-3 ​​automatic sight.

The maximum speed of the XTBD-1 without external suspensions was 322 km / h. If the flight was carried out with a torpedo, then the speed dropped almost twice, to 200-210 km / h, and with bombs this figure was slightly higher.

The range with a torpedo and bombs reached 700 km and 1126 km, respectively, and the ceiling was 6000 m. Such data cannot be called very high, but for 1935 they were very good. And in comparison with the LTX of the predecessor, the TG-2 biplane, they were simply amazing.


TG-2

In January 1938, the leadership of the U.S. Navy officially adopted a new torpedo bomber for arming and in February signed a contract for the supply of 114 aircraft. For production vehicles, they left the TBD-1 index, adding in October 1941 their own name “Devastator”, that is, “Devastator” or “Destroyer”.


Even in terms of the name "Devastator" was the first. Prior to this, all naval attack aircraft did not have their own names and were called only alphanumeric indices.

On October 5, 1937, the first of the ordered torpedo bombers landed on the deck of the Saratoga aircraft carrier.


With the start of operation of the TBD-1, the flaws of the new aircraft began to be identified. The most serious of them turned out to be severe corrosion of the wing skin from the effects of sea salt, because of which it was necessary to constantly change the rusted sheets. There were problems with the nodes of the linkage of the rudder, there were complaints about the brakes.

But overall the naval liked the car.

Therefore, in 1938, when the new aircraft carriers Yorktown, Enterprise, Wosp, and Hornet came into operation, they all received the Devastators. In 1940, the Torpedo bombers received the Ranger.

Retraining from obsolete biplanes on TBD-1 naval pilots met with enthusiasm, but not without incident. Several aircraft crashed due to the fact that the pilots began to take off, not making sure that the wing was fixed in the “deployed” position.

But in the air, the Devastator, with its large-area wing, behaved perfectly and had good maneuverability for its class. And the flaps, which provided a landing speed of about 100 km / h, allowed even inexperienced pilots to land successfully on the deck of an aircraft carrier.

The plane "stopped", more complaints, by the way, were to the dashboard, which the developers obviously did not bring to standard.

Rejoiced at the success, the Douglas tried to expand the range of tasks of their aircraft, and in 1939 they equipped one of the aircraft with floats. However, the fleet did not show much interest in such an aircraft, which received the designation TBD-1A.

But the Dutch liked the idea of ​​a float torpedo bomber. They wanted to adopt a naval patrol bomber. The Dutch asked to make a number of changes to the design of the seaplane. The main thing was the request to replace the engine with a Wright GR1820-G105 with a capacity of 1100 hp in order to unify the aircraft with the Brewster B-339D Buffalo American fighter already in service.


The aircraft was developed, but did not have time to deliver; in 1940, Holland ended with the help of German troops.

For three pre-war years, the Devastator became the main deck torpedo bomber of the US Navy. By December 7, 1941, the Devastators were based on seven aircraft carriers:
Lexington - 12 aircraft, VT-2 division;
“Saratoga” - 12 aircraft, VT-3 division;
Yorktown - 14 aircraft, VT-5 division;
Enterprise - 18 aircraft, VT-6 division;
Hornet - 8 aircraft, VT-8 division;
“Uosp” - 2 aircraft, division VS-71;
"Ranger" - 3 aircraft, VT-4 division.


Before the war with Japan, another very useful innovation was introduced on an airplane. The torpedo bomber was equipped with inflatable underwing floats. Thus, when landing a damaged TBD-1 in the water, the pilot had a chance to wait for help with the machine. True, some skeptics from the command were dissatisfied with this decision, believing that the enemy would have a much better chance of capturing the Norden secret bomb sight.

When Admiral Nagumo's squadron destroyed Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, there were no aircraft carriers in the harbor, so the main striking force of the US Pacific fleet survived.


So the first combat use of Devastators occurred only on December 10, 1941, when aircraft from Lexington attacked a Japanese submarine. The Norden super-sights did not help, the bombs fell without causing any damage to the boat.

Truly serious, the Devastators took up the enemy only in February 1942. In the Marshall Islands, Enterprise and Yorktown aircraft sunk an armed Japanese trawler near the Kwajalein Atoll and damaged seven more ships. The crews from the Enterprise distinguished themselves.


Pilots from Yorktown were less fortunate to lose four cars during an attack on Japanese ships off Jalu Island. Two planes were shot down in an air battle, and another pair had to land on the water due to a lack of fuel, and their crews were captured.

In March 1942, Lexington and Yorktown carried out a successful operation against the enemy bases of Lae and Salamau in New Guinea. Here, the loss of the Japanese fleet amounted to three ships, including a light cruiser.

However, the merits of the Devastators in the battle were rather modest. TBD-1 accounted for only one successful hit in a small transport with a displacement of 600 tons.


The reason for this was not the training of the crews, with this just everything was more or less decent. The MK.XIII torpedoes behaved absolutely disgustingly, which simply did not explode when they hit the target.

However, the advantage was that there were no losses among the Devastators, which reinforced the illusion of the naval command that these aircraft could attack ships without fighter cover.

Then the battles began in the Coral Sea. Here, for the first time, American and Japanese aircraft carriers clashed with each other in battle. The Japanese wanted to capture Port Moresby, and the Americans opposed this.

The air-sea battle went on for five days, and each side lost an aircraft carrier: the Americans, Lexington, and the Japanese, Soho. The losses of the Devastators in the air were small - only three aircraft, but all the surviving vehicles from the Lexington went to the bottom with him.

After the battle, the Americans again returned to the problem of torpedoes, since MK.XIII not only disgustingly exploded, but even after dropping and entering the water it gained speed too slowly, and the Japanese ships managed to maneuver and avoid being hit.

There was more further. Next was Midway.


Yes, in the USA, the battle at Midway Atoll is a symbol of victory. But for the crew of the Ravagers, this is a symbol of a slightly different character. Rather, “Midway” could be called a funeral march with which the “Devators” were escorted.

It’s a joke, in three days from June 3 to 6, the Yorktown, Enterprise, and Hornet aircraft carriers lost 41 aircraft, and by the end of the battle only 5 torpedo bombers survived.


The Devastators had nothing to catch from fate when the Zero appeared in the sky. Then just the beating began.

True, there is one point that pretty much spoils the whole picture. While in the Battle of Midway, Japanese fighters destroyed (and exterminated) the Devastators, none of which caused even minimal damage to at least some Japanese ship, the following happened: the Japanese, carried away by the torpedo bombardment, missed the appearance of a second wave of American aircraft.

Both Dontless dive-bombers from Enterprise carriers (37 pieces) and Yorktown (17 pieces) bombed the Japanese aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga and Soryu with nuts using bombs.

Yes, the Japanese sank the Yorktown in response, but they lost their last aircraft carrier, the Hiru. On that, the battle at Midway actually ended. So we can say that the attack of the torpedo bombers TBD-1 was not in vain, it can be attributed to distracting maneuvers.

Well so distracted, yes. For three aircraft carriers. But in principle, there are arguments in favor of the poor, for the Devastators haven’t devastated anything except for hangars on aircraft carriers.

The last combat operation in the Pacific, TBD-1 was carried out on June 6, 1942. The remaining torpedo bombers from the Enterprise, along with the dive bombers, attacked two Japanese cruisers, Mikuma and Mogami, damaged in the collision. "Mikum" was sunk, but reliable information about the impact of torpedoes is not available.

At the end of 1942, Devastators began to be replaced by Avengers, which by then had already firmly established themselves in production. Confidence in the "Devatators" was undermined by huge losses in the battles of Midway, and opinions went about the plane as a "flying coffin."

Calling is always very easy, especially if you do not bother with evidence. Why are you shot down? Shot down. Crap plane, and deal with the end.

In general, Americans are masters of sculpting labels (no worse than us) and not lovers of admitting their own mistakes. And in our case there were more than enough errors.

Torpedo bombers were sent to attack by scattered groups from three aircraft carriers, without a general command and without fighter cover. Well, if the target was some kind of convoy like PQ-17, without cover and escort.

But no, planes were sent to attack by aircraft carriers, ships that at that time had their own most powerful air defense and fighters, some of which always hung on combat patrols. And as long as the Zero could hold out in the sky, not a single American plane could do so much.

In addition, the Japanese perfectly saw the approach of the torpedo groups, just from the patrol links, and organized them more than a warm welcome.

And a torpedo. The ill-fated torpedo Mk.KhIII, which in addition to low reliability, had too small effective range (3500 m) and very strict restrictions on discharge (speed not more than 150 km / h, altitude up to 20 m). In order to have at least some chance of a hit, it was required to approach the target almost flush under fire, at a distance of 450-500 m.

Who understands - he understands. Torpedo work MK.XIII was a pleasure for the complete sadomasochists. But seriously - the crew of the Devastators were actually sent for slaughter. At the air defense of four aircraft carriers (the same "Hiryu" air defense consisted of 12 127-mm guns and 31 automatic 25-mm gun barrels) and under the bullets and shells of A6M2 fighters.


If we believe historical notes, the crew of the Devastators were aware of where they were being sent. The words of the short speech of the commander of the VT-8 division, John Waldron, have been preserved:

“Guys, be prepared for the fact that few of us will survive. But even if only one breaks through, he must obey the order! ”


The guys did not fulfill the order, because they could not. But this was not their fault, not a single plane returned from the division to the aircraft carrier. But eight crews from the Hornet did not return, not because TBD-1 were useless aircraft, but because of the above reasons.

In general, writing off the miscalculation of command in the tactics of application to the flaws of the aircraft, of course, is the easiest. However, it is worth noting that on the same day, the division (6 vehicles) of the latest TVM-3 Avenger torpedo bombers from the Enterprise aircraft carrier was completely destroyed.

The Avengers, which replaced the Devastators, suffered the same fate. So, all the same, it’s not so much in the airplanes, but in the level of application.

Nevertheless, immediately after Midway, the verdict to the Devastator was signed, and it seems that the disgraced plane was hastily removed from service with the units of the first line.


“Devastators” in the Atlantic served on the aircraft carrier “Wasp”, a part was transferred ashore for patrol service. Several TBD-1s escorted convoys to the North Atlantic from the Hatson air base.

The TBD-1s remained in service with the Ranger aircraft carrier for the longest time. This is because the Ranger's duty station was the relatively calm Caribbean Sea, where TBD-1s made patrol flights until August 1942.


The main part of TBD-1 was then used as training until the end of 1944. And after the end of his flying career, the written-off “Devastators” lived out their lives as teaching aids in aviation technical schools.

Inglourious ending, to be honest. It is very difficult to say how right were those who called the "Devastator" "flying coffin." The plane, of course, was not new. Created in 1935, albeit with a bunch of new products, TBD-1 by 1942, of course, is outdated.

The question is how much. Created in 1933 and adopted by the armed forces in 1934, the I-16 fighter in 1942, even if not easily, fought with the Messerschmitts and won. The Junkers Ju-87 began service in 1936 and fought until the very end of Germany. And he certainly was not a masterpiece, anyway.

The question, probably, is still the ability to use an airplane.

LTX TBD-1

Wingspan, m: 15,20.
Length, m: 10,67.
Height, m: 4,59.
Wing Area, m2: 39,21.

Weight, kg:
- empty aircraft: 2 540;
- normal take-off: 4;
- maximum take-off: 4 624.

Engine: 1 x Pratt Whitney R-1830-64 Twin Wasp x 900 hp
Maximum speed, km / h: 322.
Cruising speed, km / h: 205.
Practical range, km:
- with bomb load: 1 152;
- with a torpedo: 700.

Rate of climb, m / min: 219.
Practical ceiling, m: 6 000.
Crew, pers .: 2-3.
Armament:
- one 7,62 mm machine gun and one 7,62 mm machine gun turret in the rear cockpit;
- 1 torpedo MK.13 or 454 kg of bombs.
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  1. mark1 29 February 2020 06: 19 New
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    Drew attention to the small diameter of the "forehead" of "Twin Wasp". No one will tell you the reasons why we did not buy a license for it instead of Mistral Major (or together)?
    1. old_pferd 29 February 2020 07: 27 New
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      They didn’t buy Pratt-Whitney, but the competitor Wright R-1820 Cyclone 9 from which the engines came from Shvetsov.
      1. mark1 29 February 2020 08: 05 New
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        About how the Cyclone was bought, I know the question of why it was not possible to purchase Twin-Wasp. The difference between them, both in diameter and in line, and in relation to Major Twin-Wosp looked more interesting.
        1. old_pferd 29 February 2020 08: 46 New
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          Dates compare. Twin appeared in 1932, the contract with Wright -1933, i.e. Evaluation and negotiations began in 1931-1932. Twin Wasp has not yet shown himself. As I read, in the first half of the 30s, Wright crushed in the Pratt-Whitney market.
          1. mark1 29 February 2020 10: 59 New
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            I read somewhere that there were attempts to procure but "failed." Here are the reasons for the failure and I would like to know. And specifically to the year 33 there is no binding. Major went to the series in agony because of the jambs with the acquisition of technical documentation and in the initial stages he did not mind replacing it.
            1. old_pferd 29 February 2020 11: 15 New
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              In Wiki, an article about the M-25, it says that the contract with Wright was concluded on 22.04.1933/XNUMX/XNUMX.
              1. mark1 29 February 2020 11: 25 New
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                We probably don’t understand each other. What does Wright have to do with it?
                1. old_pferd 29 February 2020 11: 36 New
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                  "M-25 is an aircraft engine manufactured in the USSR in the 1930s and 40s under a license for the American Wright R-1820-F3 engine of the Wright Cyclone family"
                  1. mark1 29 February 2020 11: 45 New
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                    Duck, it's not about him ... The question of Pratt Whitney Twin Wasp and his unrealized prospects in the USSR
                    1. old_pferd 29 February 2020 12: 04 New
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                      Well, imagine the end of 1932. Engines are desperately needed. With the leading company Wright discussed the main technical issues, the contract at the finish. Here you will find out that Pratt-Whitney released his twin, he isn’t anywhere else, childhood illnesses have not been eliminated, mass production has not been established, and it’s a little more powerful than you are going to buy. And what to do? Break with Wright and start all over the new Pratt-Whitney? Remember, Wright’s engine was put on DC-3, Twin Wosp went there only from the war, with the C-47.
                      1. mark1 29 February 2020 12: 16 New
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                        I beg you, I don’t need to explain common truths as a pioneer. We are talking about other events - whether there was an attempt to acquire technical documentation and a license and the reason for the refusal of the American side, as it is written in some sources. It’s just that this fact is almost never covered, and I would like to understand this. It is possible that ours refused because of the beginning of the development of MGM (M-56) Urmin, (but this is already my speculation).
                      2. old_pferd 29 February 2020 13: 00 New
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                        It was like Twin Wosp and B-17, and something else, I don’t remember. And there were negotiations. But then 1939, the Finnish war, the USA declared a "moral embargo" and everything fell apart, not only motors, but factories, machine tools, cracking plants, etc. etc. Then the embargo was slightly eased, but there was no talk of motors, well, then the war didn’t.
                      3. Octopus 29 February 2020 14: 00 New
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                        Quote: old_pferd
                        negotiations were. But here 1939, the Finnish war,

                        This is with you much later. There she already looked at dubluosp. But it did not work out, and thank God. They couldn’t be able to put such a motor in a series anyway, the Americans themselves fought with it until the end of the 42nd actually.
                    2. old_pferd 29 February 2020 13: 26 New
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                      I rummaged where I read, there Twin Wosp and Twin Hornet appeared:
                      https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/moralnoe-embargo-1939-g-narushennoe-sotrudnichestvo-sssr-i-ssha-v-oblasti-aviastroeniya/viewer
    2. Octopus 29 February 2020 13: 58 New
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      Quote: mark1
      in relation to Major, Twin-Wosp looked more interesting.

      Why do you think so? Just the major was newer, larger and, as it seemed, more promising. But it did not grow together. And buying in the early 30s a single nine instead of a double seven is the right decision. The single nine is much more patient with deviations in technology (inevitable when transferring production to the USSR) due to lower thermal stress. Remember the torment with ASH-82.
      1. mark1 29 February 2020 14: 18 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Just the major was newer, larger and, as it seemed, more promising.

        Yes, it wasn’t newer, but it was more. If we consider in perspective the installation on the I-180, then agree d = 1220mm is preferable to d = 1306mm. And the misfortunes with Major (M-88) during the development suffered so much. that Twin Wasp would probably go with a bang.
        If we consider the prospects of the Major with an eye on the M-90, then this perspective is doubtful, the M-82 line turned out to be better
        1. Octopus 29 February 2020 14: 40 New
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          Quote: mark1
          agree d = 1220mm preferable d = 1306mm

          Generally on the drum. The forehead of a plane gives much less resistance than a wing. A large area facilitates heat dissipation, it was he who was the main problem for everyone.
          Quote: mark1
          troubles with Major (M-88) during the development suffered so much. that Twin Wasp would probably go with a bang.

          Again. The trouble went through, all the more, when mastering the motor, all the leading experts went to work in the NKVD, but from this one can’t make a conclusion that PV would go off with a bang. Once again, I remind you about the difficult fate of the ASH-82. Not only that, if you fantasize, then you need to take certainly Double Wright, not PV, Wright cylinder at least somehow mastered in terms of components. That is the same ASH-82.
          1. mark1 29 February 2020 15: 43 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Generally on the drum.

            Nuuu .... if only you ... There is such a concept, specific frontal power Yes, and the diameter depends on the stroke of the piston, it doesn’t affect the heat removal from the cylinder.
            1. Octopus 29 February 2020 15: 57 New
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              Quote: mark1
              There is such a thing - specific frontal power

              There is. But it should not be fetishized, like any other concept.
              Quote: mark1
              it doesn’t affect the heat removal from the cylinder.

              It is much easier to remove heat from a large single nine than from a small double seven.

              Again. Motor building was a very big problem. The Soviet Union does not need better. He needs it easier.
              1. mark1 29 February 2020 16: 06 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                There is. But it should not be fetishized, like any other concept.

                But who fetishes that, but why do you think double stars appeared and the so-called square began to be used in the scheme?
                Quote: Octopus
                It is much easier to remove heat from a large single nine than from a small double seven.

                It would be strange to argue with this ..
                1. Octopus 29 February 2020 18: 19 New
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                  Quote: mark1
                  why do you think double stars appeared

                  I mean, why didn’t they put more than 9 cylinders in one row? Or why did the cylinder size not grow?
                  1. mark1 1 March 2020 06: 08 New
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                    7 and 9 are the most optimal numbers, but they put it like 11 (although they were Japanese), and with a cylinder diameter of more than 160 mm there were problems with thermal load. You think in vain that I did not read all this educational program.
                    If we consider Twin Wosp and Cyclone, then with the same working volume and liter capacity, the thermal load on the cylinder at Tween is less (guess why) with a slightly worse removal from the second row, and the frontal specific power is higher.
                  2. Octopus 1 March 2020 07: 03 New
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                    Quote: mark1
                    although they were Japanese

                    ))
                    Quote: mark1
                    problems with heat load.

                    And detonation. Saber has more than 24 cylinders for a far from record volume.
                    Quote: mark1
                    with a slightly worse pickup from the second row

                    Ugums. They explained to you above that the USSR needs to be quickly, as reliably as possible, if possible together with the plant. They did not begin to go into a new double-rower for those years, and they did absolutely right.
                    Why then bought a Frenchman, not an American - a separate question.
                  3. mark1 1 March 2020 07: 55 New
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                    I am surprised at your ability to drive in a circle, regardless of the question. Valuable property in some cases good I'm taking my leave for sim hi
  • Dmitry V. 6 March 2020 12: 11 New
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    Quote: mark1
    The difference between them, both in diameter and in line, and in relation to Major Twin-Wosp looked more interesting.


    Because Mistral Major was the first double star project to be implemented, and at the time of the negotiations, childhood illnesses had already passed, the Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp was launched in the 1932 series and long struggled with the inherent childhood illnesses.
    Therefore, the choice of the Mistral Major is fairly obvious.
  • lucul 29 February 2020 07: 31 New
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    When Admiral Nagumo's squadron destroyed Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, there were no aircraft carriers in the harbor, making the main striking force of the US Pacific Fleet

    Strange, isn't it? )))
    1. Octopus 29 February 2020 14: 07 New
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      Quote: lucul
      Strange, isn't it? )))

      What is strange about you? What does Mr. Skomorokhov not know that Kimmel AB had auxiliary courts? Despite the fact that he’s writing a half-article, how did the Americans know how to do alfastrike (in any way) six months after the Japanese demonstration?
      1. Alexey RA 2 March 2020 18: 42 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Despite the fact that he’s writing a half-article, how did the Americans know how to do alfastrike (in any way) six months after the Japanese demonstration?

        Well, in the Coral Sea they managed to portray something similar to a combined strike from pre-war theory. But as soon as the “Bychara” fell away - and everything went to dust.
    2. Alexey RA 2 March 2020 18: 40 New
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      Quote: lucul
      Strange, isn't it? )))

      Nothing strange - the main striking force just stood in a theoretically invulnerable harbor.
      And all kinds of scout-deckers there were driven in the role of air transport for the Marines - they delivered planes to Wake and Midway. smile
    3. Alexey Z 4 March 2020 18: 26 New
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      Then they were not yet considered the main striking force.
  • The leader of the Redskins 29 February 2020 07: 38 New
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    To say that the plane is not beautiful? You can’t do that. Is it original? Also, it seems, is not true. Not proportional, some kind of ... Tadpole, legs are thin chassis ... But, after all, it flew! He fought!)))
    Thanks to the author, in the morning I read an interesting article.
    By the way, have a nice weekend!
  • Paul Siebert 29 February 2020 07: 48 New
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    Excellent article.
    It remains to sympathize with the American pilots at Midway, who entered the battle with the Japanese in obviously obsolete machines. You will not deny them courage.
    Even the appearance of the “Devaster” is plain.
    And we say - beautiful planes fly well! wink
    1. Whalebone 29 February 2020 14: 14 New
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      It's not outdated; the thing is, without cover. In 41 SB and IL-2, too, unaccompanied flew and died hundreds. Without combat practice, theory does not work. The laws of war are written in blood. Well, the unfinished torpedoes also made themselves felt - at the risk of their lives reaching the drop distance, getting into ... zilch, and Zero comes in from behind. So the kamikaze (in fact) were not invented in Japan, and American naval pilots could not occupy heroism.
    2. Octopus 29 February 2020 14: 26 New
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      Quote: Paul Siebert
      It remains to sympathize with the American pilots at Midway, who entered the battle with the Japanese in obviously obsolete cars

      The author has adequately explained to you. It remains to sympathize with the pilots who entered the general, as it turned out, battle with the Japanese under the command of Spruence, who led the aircraft carrier (aircraft carriers) for the first time in their life. Well, Nimitz, who lost Saratoga, is also well done. But the main fellows are figures unknown to the general public - Celers, Reeves and others, who in time, in the early 30s, got rid of the American Yamamoto (Admiral Yarnell), because Dofiga is smart. He brought Lex and Saratoga into one compound, a cheater, and then Hawaii will conditionally bomb on the exercises, then it will conditionally endure battleships.
      1. Alexey RA 2 March 2020 18: 46 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        It remains to sympathize with the pilots who entered the general, as it turned out, battle with the Japanese under the command of Spruens, who led the aircraft carrier (aircraft carriers) for the first time in their life.

        It's not only his fault. Spruens had the whole Halsey headquarters. And it was this headquarters that managed to plan the whole naval mess, which is now called the "incredible victory." With such headquarters work, victory was truly unbelievable. smile
        1. Octopus 2 March 2020 22: 53 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          With such headquarters work, victory was truly incredible

          All well done there. Where are the Lex pilots? In the middle of MOT. Where is Saratoga? In San Diego. Why, after six months of war, Wildcat and Buffalo are issued for air defense aircraft? Why are there no basic torpedo bombers at the main base of the Pacific Fleet? Why are B-17s used as naval attack aircraft, and not as reconnaissance aircraft? The war has left us too little time.

          Let me remind you that we are not talking about the Soviet Union, but about a country that, 2+ years after the events described, screwed the AGSN to the planning bomb.
          1. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 10: 27 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Where is Saratoga? In San Diego.

            "Lady Sarah" fifth point felt future trouble and each time ahead of time got up for repairs. smile
            Quote: Octopus
            Why, after six months of war, Wildcat and Buffalo are issued for air defense aircraft?

            Well ... you could ask the army - they would still drive the “axes". smile
            Quote: Octopus
            Why are there no basic torpedo bombers at the main base of the Pacific Fleet?

            And why are the very basic torpedo aircraft forced to cosplay the army on "widowers"? And not only in Midway, but also in the Aleuts. Where is the army - and where are the torpedoes?
            Quote: Octopus
            Why are B-17s used as naval attack aircraft, and not as reconnaissance aircraft?

            EMNIP, B-17 before the war was planned to be used in the anti-ship role. But in a completely different way - they had to attack ships from a height of no more than a kilometer with a poetry discharge. Simply put - to sow the sea and hope for theorver.
            1. Octopus 3 March 2020 10: 48 New
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              Quote: Alexey RA
              sow the sea and hope for theorver.

              And we again return to the favorite topic of American arms and assess their effectiveness in testing.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              why are the very basic torpedo aircraft forced to cosplay the army on "widowers"?

              Battleships rule. Beofayters bottom. Sneaky narrow-eyed tricks will not break the American spirit.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              could ask the army

              It’s not for the British to ask what an air defense fighter is. They burned Washington, we will not forget, we will not forgive.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              each time getting up ahead of time for repairs

              Well, for this particular case, Sarah went out of repair in advance. But I did not go from Seattle to Hawaii, but to San Diego, the captain to pick up. You can’t go into battle without a captain, and by plane he’s uncomfortable in Seattle, especially in Hawaii.
              1. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 11: 03 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                Battleships rule. Beofayters bottom.

                Well ... the Ventura fleet did. True, I wrote her down on patrol - away from sin.
                Something seems to me that the fleet was just afraid that shock (not a patrol and not a former deck-based) shore-based aircraft, the army will take it from him - stating that it is a coastal defense aircraft, and coastal defense belongs to the army. smile
                Quote: Octopus
                It’s not for the British to ask what an air defense fighter is.

                What good can a nation fly on a string bag? Who said, “look at the Mustang? In Salem heretic! smile
                Quote: Octopus
                Well, for this particular case, Sarah went out of repair in advance. But I did not go from Seattle to Hawaii, but to San Diego, the captain to pick up. You can’t go into battle without a captain, and by plane he’s uncomfortable in Seattle, especially in Hawaii.

                Just the commander of the AB was on board. Waited for the commander TF - Fitch. And along the way they loaded on board everything that was unloaded before the repair, including the air group and supplies. It lasted five days, after which "Lady Sarah" was awarded the bossy kick Nimitz - "get out of the base even if Fitch hasn’t arrived yet". June 1," Saratoga "came out - but it was already too late.
                1. Octopus 3 March 2020 11: 41 New
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                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  the coastal aircraft will be taken away from him by the army

                  The gentle attitude of the army, navy and Arnold is a separate issue. Another question is who took over organizational experience from whom. Americans or Japanese.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  What good can a nation fly on a string bag?

                  Sleeping top five.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  look at the Mustang

                  This is the 42nd year is not an air defense fighter. But not Wildcat, of course.
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  awarded the boss Nimitz kick

                  The main thing on time.
                  1. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 14: 48 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    The gentle attitude of the army, navy and Arnold is a separate issue. Another question is who took over organizational experience from whom. Americans or Japanese.

                    This is yes ... army coastal defense with army fortified minefields around the base fleet, I was always pleased.
                    And a cherry on the cake - in the presence of an army BO, the fleet formed its naval (Marine Corps) coastal defense battalions (Marine Defense Battalions) with 127-155 mm coastal and 76-90 mm anti-aircraft guns. laughing
                    Quote: Octopus
                    Sleeping top five.

                    "You already ordered a corsair and hellcat - why do you need some British fighter? And by the way, why does the fleet need air defense fighters at all? Air defense fleet bases - this is the business of the army!"
                    In this scenario, Midway has every chance to get the "axes", and even the P-400.

                    In short, Americans have their own pride. smile
                    Quote: Octopus
                    The main thing on time.

                    Yeah ... when she was guaranteed not to be in time.
                    In addition, 2/3 of the planes loaded on “Lady Sarah” were not hers - she was carrying TF.16 reinforcements. The "Saratoga" had only two squadrons of its own - fighter and reconnaissance.
                    1. Octopus 3 March 2020 16: 35 New
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                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      You already ordered a corsair and hellcat

                      A corsair would have been quite suitable if taught to fly at least from the coast over the past six months.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Why do you need some British fighter?

                      He is. But these two are not.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      In this scenario, Midway has every chance of getting "axes", or even the P-400.

                      Incredible luck for the Americans could be a pig scandal over aviation at the very beginning of the war. It would not have been surprising to learn in Tunisia that axes against fokers and messers are not pulling.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      when she was guaranteed not to be in time.
                      In addition, 2/3 of the planes loaded on “Lady Sarah” were not hers - she was carrying TF.16 reinforcements. The "Saratoga" had only two squadrons of its own - fighter and reconnaissance

                      Therefore, we will blow the fanfare about the repair of Yorktown. Labor feat, that-sho.
  • K-50 29 February 2020 08: 32 New
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    Pratt Whitney R-1830-64 Twin Wasp x 900 HP

    I wonder why this engine was not changed from the Devastators, planned for the Netherlands, to the Wright GR1820-G105 with a capacity of 1100 hp. All the same, more than 200 forces, and the characteristics would have risen accordingly. what
    1. Octopus 29 February 2020 14: 12 New
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      Quote: K-50
      I wonder why this engine was not changed from the Devastators, planned for the Netherlands, to the Wright GR1820-G105 with a capacity of 1100 hp.

      The Americans were not bothered by the unification of engines. It’s easier for them to make a new plane right away.
  • Undecim 29 February 2020 10: 24 New
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    all Lexington vehicles that survived the aerial combat went to the bottom with him.

    In March 2018, Paul Allen's expedition found Lexington and its wrecks (seven TBD Devastators, three SBD Dauntlesses, one F4F Wildcat) at a depth of 3000 m.
  • Ryaruav 29 February 2020 16: 35 New
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    almost all participating countries had enough such aircraft at the beginning of the Second World War, only the difference in further actions was the Americans who didn’t interfere with the production of new machines and had a great choice and the USSR were forced to raise the performance characteristics of the already created machines with all their might, instead of pe-2 The new Tu-2, which is absolutely an order of magnitude higher in all respects, is belittled by Soviet books where the Pe-2 has a speed of 580 km, when finally we start the bare, though unsuitable truth about the technique, there are no m hundred similar in behavior related to the PV-190, and we in the west, I just want to say both must add ipodelit and only stretch the truth will emerge
    1. Alf
      Alf 29 February 2020 20: 46 New
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      Quote: Ryaruav
      Soviet books belittle me where the pe-2 has a speed of 580 km h

      Name at least one such book. Are the concepts "comma", "capital letter" known?
      Quote: Ryaruav
      instead of ne-2 we were simply afraid of the new tu-2 which is absolutely an order of magnitude higher in all respects

      Now, if by that time the TU-2 had a motor ..
      1. Alexey RA 2 March 2020 18: 48 New
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        Quote: Alf
        Now, if by that time the TU-2 had a motor ..

        PMSM, this applies to any Soviet "breakthrough" aircraft that did not go into the series:
        Now, if by that time there was a motor on (the right to enter).
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Alf
    Alf 29 February 2020 20: 53 New
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    Life correspondents did not eat bread for nothing.



    Still, the US Navy's planes are beautiful in the pre-war "parrot" color.
  • Alexey RA 2 March 2020 18: 37 New
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    And a torpedo. The ill-fated torpedo Mk.KhIII, which in addition to low reliability, had too small effective range (3500 m) and very strict restrictions on discharge (speed not more than 150 km / h, altitude up to 20 m). In order to have at least some chance of a hit, it was required to approach the target almost flush under fire, at a distance of 450-500 m.

    Who understands - he understands. Torpedo work MK.XIII was a pleasure for the complete sadomasochists. But seriously - the crew of the Devastators were actually sent for slaughter. At the air defense of four aircraft carriers (the same "Hiryu" air defense consisted of 12 127-mm guns and 31 automatic 25-mm gun barrels) and under the bullets and shells of A6M2 fighters.

    The torpedo bombers went to slaughter because of the "magnificent" organization of the departure of the decks.
    In theory, when working on the enemy’s aircraft, the AB USN air group was supposed to deliver a combined strike, in which the task of the torpedo bombers was to tackle the enemy’s aircraft maneuvers with their torpedoes (not to hit, namely, to maneuver), facilitating the attack with the main anti-aircraft strike force - “slow but deadly” . It was the dive bombers before the war that were considered the main anti-aircraft strike force. And in the Coral Sea, the Yankees even got something similar.
    But under Midway none of this was done. Dive-torpedo-bearing groups fell apart even at the stage of lifting into the air, and the slowest torpedo-bombers that took off last managed to reach the target earlier than faster dive-bombers. Bardaku traditionally added a connection - the radios of all the fighters were tuned to the frequency of the airborne aircraft, so they did not hear undercover. The same Gray blabbed in the sky, waiting for a signal about the need for cover, which he could not even theoretically hear.

    As for the role of torpedo bombers ... at least the fact that the first real dumping of torpedoes at the exercises of the 30s was carried out by torpedo bombers only in 1940 speaks of their "importance" and only then did the fleet suddenly discover that it actually had air torpedo and torpedo bombers no: 9 out of 10 dropped torpedoes drowned, jumped out of the water, left the course ... in general, they lived their own lives.
    1. Octopus 2 March 2020 22: 41 New
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      I will add that the author is not aware that the range of 3.5 km for autorpeda is redundant. The Japanese have 1.5-2.2 km.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      The torpedo bombers went to slaughter because of the "magnificent" organization of the departure of the decks.

      Midnike wrote many times in various ways. Spruence, Flatcher and Nimitz did everything to steal the victory from Rochfort. Be able to Americans in aircraft carriers - no Miracle at Midway, and at the same time immortal feat would not be. Carried out in one gate with virtually no loss.
      the fleet suddenly discovered that in fact it had no air torpedoes and torpedo bombers


      Of course, the American military acceptance is a separate interesting topic. But it’s much more fun that the fleet didn’t find anything like that. is he refused to believe what was happening 3 more years.
      1. Liam 3 March 2020 00: 13 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        The torpedo bombers went to slaughter because of the "magnificent" organization of the departure of the decks.

        In the same way, Japanese torpedo bombers went to the slaughter in the Coral Sea, Midway and on until the 45th.
        Not only for slaughter on peacefully sleeping airfields-Taranto, PX. And even under PX, the Japanese, under ideal conditions, lost almost 10% of their aircraft at the hands of a completely demoralized and caught in shorts under enemy blankets.
        As soon as these ideal conditions were over, a series of endless mistakes began for everyone in all battles and battles. For in life it is always like that, for everyone and everywhere. Besides sofa analysts)
        Some of the great chess players once said that any move in chess is essentially a mistake. And all the games are a chain of wrong moves in which the one who uses the opponent’s mistakes is better
        1. Octopus 3 March 2020 00: 28 New
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          Your maxim, of course, has a right to exist. But like any maxim, of course, is not true. Not at all similar the Japanese marched on the same Lexington, and the Americans marched on Yamato.
          1. Liam 3 March 2020 00: 45 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            The Japanese didn’t go exactly the same Lexington

            Shortly after 15:00 p.m., the Zuikaku was following messages from Deboin-based reconnaissance aircraft (incorrectly) monitoring the forces of Kreis, changing course by exactly 120 ° (southeast). At Takagi headquarters, they decided that the planes were being pursued by Fletcher's aircraft carriers, and determined that the Allied ships, of course, would be in range shortly before nightfall. Takagi and Hara were determined to immediately attack them with an existing group of aircraft and without escort fighters, even though this meant that the attackers would return after dark. [60]

            To try to confirm the whereabouts of the American aircraft carriers, at 15:15 Hara sent eight torpedo bombers into reconnaissance within a radius of 200 miles (370 km) to the west. Around the same time, dive bombers returned from an attack on Neosho (English) Russian. and landed. Six tired pilots of dive bombers said they were ready to immediately leave for the next mission. Having picked up the most experienced crews, at 16:15 Hara fired 12 dive bombers and 15 torpedo bombers with an order to fly along a bearing of 277 ° for 280 miles (520 km). Eight reconnaissance aircraft reached the limit of this 200 mile (370 km) search area and turned back without seeing Fletcher’s ships. [61]

            At 17:47 p.m., the 17th Operational Connection — operating under a thick layer of clouds 200 miles (370 km) west of Takagi — detected Japanese strike forces heading toward them on radar screens, turned southeast against the wind, and sent 11 aircraft Wildcat air patrol, including one manned by James H. Flatley, to intercept. Catching the Japanese formation by surprise, the Wildcat shot down seven torpedo bombers and one dive bomber, and severely damaged another torpedo bomber (which later crashed), at the cost of losing three Wildcat fighters

            We will not even remember quiet terror with intelligence on both sides.
            Quote: Octopus
            on Yamato

            On Yamato even there was no sleeping airfield. The beating of a baby. Although quite well-fed
            1. Octopus 3 March 2020 09: 20 New
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              Quote: Liam
              Takagi and Hara were determined to immediately attack them with an existing group of aircraft and without escort fighters, even though this meant that the attackers would return after dark

              Burst into tears.
              You do not see the difference in vain between banzai attacks in the Coral Sea (where the main mistake was the lack of understanding among the samurai that they are not entitled to exchange with the Americans) and platoon attacks under Midway, and even with broken torpedoes.
              Quote: Liam
              Beating baby

              War with overwhelming superiority is what it looks like. And not like in the 42nd.
              1. Liam 3 March 2020 14: 56 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                don't see the difference

                I see the difference. When almost correct tactics in the Coral Sea, the result was a draw by and large, and
                Quote: Octopus
                platoon attacks under Midway

                led to the defeat of the aircraft carrier fleet of Japan.
                So think that the best is the right attack or platoon mess)
                PySy I don’t remember if the same chess master or anotherthe perfect game always ends in a draw)
                1. Octopus 3 March 2020 15: 05 New
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                  Quote: Liam
                  So think that the best is the right attack or platoon mess)

                  Do you not believe in golden bullets and divine intervention?)))
                  1. Liam 3 March 2020 22: 57 New
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                    I believe only in facts. The only criterion of truth is reality. But in reality, the defeated aircraft carrier fleet of Japan and the hegemony at sea that continues to this day.
            2. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 10: 47 New
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              Quote: Liam
              Takagi and Hara were determined to immediately attack them with an available group of planes and without escort fighters, even though this meant that the attackers would return after dark.

              Quote: Liam
              Around the same time, dive bombers returned from an attack on Neosho (English) Russian. and landed. Six tired pilots of dive bombers said they were ready to immediately leave for the next mission. Having selected the most experienced crews, at 16:15 Hara fired 12 dive bombers and 15 torpedo bombers with an order to fly along a bearing of 277 ° to 280 miles (520 km).

              You see what’s the matter - this is a forced repeated attack by the available forces on an unknown enemy.
              Under Midway AV, the Yankees delivered a pre-planned first strike under ideal conditions: an undetected carrier carrier in cooperation with coastal aviation attacks the enemy engaged in work along the coast of the AB. And, having several days to plan the carrier part of the operation, the Yankees managed to break apart not only the coordinated strike of the air groups of two ABs from the same TF, but even the organization of the strike inside the group of one AB.
              They did not need to feverishly search for aircraft, they did not need to select pilots. "All we had to do, was follow the damn train, CJ!“... that is, they needed to draw up a normal strike plan in greenhouse conditions, calculate spotting, raise regular planes of normally equipped air groups with fresh crews, assemble them and direct them to the coordinates given by reconnaissance planes. And all this - without any opposition the enemy.
              1. Liam 3 March 2020 15: 07 New
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                Who, then, were the Japanese once giving themselves to completely defeat such an inept opponent as in your description?)
                1. Octopus 3 March 2020 16: 38 New
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                  Quote: Liam
                  Who were the Japanese then?

                  Losers. Sad bat labor.
                  On the other hand, it came from karma the otvetochka for the state of air defense at PX
                  1. Liam 3 March 2020 22: 53 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    Losers

                    You mean the most powerful (at that time) carrier fleet of the world, with the best naval pilots and the best naval aviation in the complex, which until that moment smashed the best 2 fleets of the world with an almost dry count and smashed their navies on the ground in heaven and on sea?)
                    I understand that you like hyperbole..but the measure you still need to know
                    1. Octopus 4 March 2020 00: 45 New
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                      Quote: Liam
                      Are you talking about the world's most powerful (at that time) carrier fleet

                      Yes, about him. Hood x 4.

                      Again.
                      1. Nagumo should have been battered in PX much stronger. Luck.
                      2. The Americans should not have won Midway. Luck.

                      Yes, life is unfair.
                2. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 19: 52 New
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                  Quote: Liam
                  Who, then, were the Japanese once giving themselves to completely defeat such an inept opponent as in your description?)

                  Those who fought off seven waves of raids and stumbled only on the eighth.
                  Midway: torpers, "slow but deadly," B-17, "weathercocks."
                  AB: three waves of torpers.
                  When repulsing the attack of aircraft carrier torpers at Nagumo, all of the fighters he had were involved, including escorting the second wave - up to 42 Zero hung in the air. But they all went to low altitudes. What to do - fragmentation does not bring to good. Yes, and Tech intervened, pulling on his top five third of all “Zero”. So the dive bombers worked like at a training ground
                  But even here, McCluskey nearly ruined the whole mass of things by issuing the TS to the attack of two ABs in the strictly opposite doctrine:
                  ... in accordance with the USN Dive Doctrine doctrine, the leading squadron (in this case VS-6) was supposed to strike at a more distant target (Akagi, on the right), and the guided (VB-6) at the nearest (“ Kaga ”, running at the 24 speed of the node to the left of the head section of McCluskey). This is exactly how Richard Best presented the case, who transmitted McCluskey to 10.12: "I attack according to the doctrine." She ordered to attack "Kaga". It is very likely that at the moment the receivers of the CEAG were tuned only to the command frequency VS-6, and McCluskey did not hear this report. But it was precisely at this time that he himself ordered Best to attack the more distant aircraft carrier, Akagi (of course, Best did not hear him either), and the commander of VS-6, Earl Gallagher, was the closest, Kaga, which was contrary to doctrine. But Gallagher accepted this order, and did not argue with him. As a result, in 10.17 all 31 SBDs of the Enterprise were ready to attack only one aircraft carrier - Kaga.

                  And only Best with his link saved the situation, interrupting the attack and retargeting the “Akagi”. Which Best and drowned with one (!) Bomb. smile
      2. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 10: 33 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Of course, the American military acceptance is a separate interesting topic. But it’s much more fun that the fleet didn’t find anything like that. He refused to believe in what was happening for another 3 years.

        I expressed myself a little inaccurately, mixing together in a single naval heap two hostile factions: warlords-deckers and wise men from the central apparatus of the fleet. Everything was the same with airborne pedals as boat ones: practitioners report about 90% of failures, and the arsenal and the Bureau send alarmists away and don’t believe - "everything is fine from our side, look for a mistake in yourself". The end is a little predictable - by 1943 the Avengers began to take mostly bombs and learn a gentle dive. smile
        1. Octopus 3 March 2020 10: 51 New
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          Quote: Alexey RA
          The end is a bit predictable.

          And we won’t do naval reception, no. And someone at the same time crumbles a loaf on Comrade Kulik, GSS, the enemy of the people.
          1. Alexey RA 3 March 2020 11: 10 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            And we won’t do naval reception, no.

            Well, the familiar picture is saving plus FFM. As they wrote on a similar occasion in one Empire, "the design of the fuse for new shells is the same as that used before, so the proposed tests will be only an aimless waste of the budget of the maritime department, therefore the projector who proposed this should be punished".
            It seems to me that the American naval leadership urgently needed its Tsushima. smile
            1. Octopus 3 March 2020 11: 21 New
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              Quote: Alexey RA
              As they wrote on a similar occasion in one Empire,

              It is as if Nimitz (Kimmel) is a grand duke, and cannot carry out the tests by his order, with senators and journalists.