Military Review

Cruisers of the Baltimore type. In the battle for the title of best

129
Cruisers of the Baltimore type. In the battle for the title of best

... The arrow was approaching 10 pm, but the cruiser continued the meaningless battle. He shot and shot, as if he was afraid not to be in time. He shot for himself, for all cruisers of his type, for all leaving in history class of heavy cruisers. Illuminating with flashes and shaking the coast of Convondo with a roar in an attempt to convince everyone that he and his brothers were not built in vain.


Half a minute before the official truce, at 21 h. 59 min. 27 seconds, "St. Paul" released the last shell autographed by US admirals. After which he withdrew from his position and moved in full swing east.

He met dawn in the open sea, going farther and farther from the war-torn Korean peninsula.

He did not wage this war, but he was honored to end it. Just like eight years ago, when the St. Paul fired the last salvo along the coast of Japan, putting an end to the use of naval artillery in World War II ...


Saint Paul, Baltimore-class heavy cruiser, under fire from a North Vietnamese coastal battery

Baltimore is called the best heavy cruiser, forgetting to clarify that it was not just the best.

Baltimore is the only type of heavy cruiser that was built during the war.


When the pages of previous agreements were charred by the flames of war, no one had the strength to continue the cruising and battleship arms race. The United States continued them alone. But even their industry was not able to quickly rearm the Navy with ships of this level.


Of the 14 Baltimore built, only six were able to get to the war zone. The bulk of these wonderful ships went into operation after the war.

As a result, the Japanese were left to the end with their magnificent Mioko, Takao, Mogami, and the Yankees at the end of the curtain received a small compound of SRTs built without artificial restrictions. But history no longer left them time.

The lead Baltimore went into operation in 1943, two more in 1944, the other three “veterans” came to smash the Japanese in recent months, when the Mikado fleet practically ceased to exist.

The last to enter the bloody battle was St. Paul, already in July 1945. To give symbolic volleys along the shore of a defeated enemy. It is significant that during the service he received 17 stars for participating in military operations, of which only one related to the events of World War II.

Another recruit, the Quincy, immediately after entering service went to plow European waters, where by the summer of 1944 the last chance of a naval battle with the participation of large (and even not very large) surface ships had evaporated. Therefore, the most significant Quincy operation was the delivery of Roosevelt to a conference in Yalta.

Yes, it's good to fight and win weapons of the future. But in life this does not happen. The battle in the Java Sea, Guadalcanal, the “second Pearl Harbor”, the Iron Bottom Strait - all these events date back to 1942. When under the onslaught of the Japanese fleet one by one, the “gray ghosts” died - American SRT of five pre-war projects.

The third point is related to the assessment of the design. If the rivalry in the cruiser class continued with the same excitement, then such a conservative project as Baltimore would hardly have retained the title of "best." Compared to its predecessors, it did not contain any revolutionary changes, being a repetition of the constructions of the pre-war period.

The composition of the armament and the protection scheme of the Baltimore were generally identical to the “contractual” cruiser of the Wichita type (1937).

The Yankees lengthened the Wichita hull by 20 meters and increased its width from 19 to 21,5 meters. Thus, they did what they could not have done before the war: to increase the standard displacement of the cruiser to 14 tons. This at once saved Baltimore from all the issues that worried its predecessors, who suffered from constant overload and who had to sacrifice a reserve of stability.


At this point we will make a military U-turn and bring down a flurry of enthusiasm on American cruisers.

The composition of the weapons and the protection scheme of Baltimore were generally identical to the Wichita-type CRT. But this is not a reason for ridicule.

In terms of armament and armor thickness, the Wichita was one of the best “negotiated” cruisers. whose appearance has become a foundation for the future


Having built a pair of Pensacol, six Notre Hamptons, two Portland and seven New Orleans, Americans by the mid-30s. gained considerable experience in creating ships of this class. They had the opportunity to see the results of certain decisions in practice, and developed a set of optimal requirements for a heavy cruiser.

9 guns in three towers of the main caliber, with a distance between the axes of the barrels of at least 1,7 meters.

8 universal-caliber guns placed according to the rhombus pattern in the central part of the hull.

The “box” reservation, to the greatest extent consistent with the offensive tactics of American SRT, combined with the powerful defense of the towers and their barbets. With a total mass of armor reaching 1500 tons (excluding armored decks).

100 hp powerplant had to provide the cruiser with a quick set of speed, with its maximum value of 000-32 knots.

The only problem was that to implement this set of characteristics, a ship with a standard displacement 1,4-1,5 times higher than the established limit (10 tons) was required.


Wichita at the time of completion afloat

The Americans were one of the few who tried to follow the established rules (exceeding a displacement of 500 tons is a trifle compared to what the Italians did, for example). KRT "Wichita", the only representative of its type, nevertheless acquired the desired characteristics, which made it possible to meet the challenges of the era. But on one condition: the stability of Wichita caused serious concern. The cruiser could tip over in battle, even from minor flooding.

If there was an opportunity to build Wichita in a 14-ton building, he would have no price. You understand who we are talking about.

The Wichita design contained a ton of interesting solutions. However, it also contained flaws ...


The American box reservation was the ultimate version of the all-or-nothing scheme, providing maximum armor thickness in the area of ​​important compartments, and leaving virtually the entire hull and superstructure unprotected.

Wichita had a very short stronghold, only 55 meters long (less than 30% of the length), to protect engine rooms. Protection was expressed as a gradually thinning armored belt, which had a thickness: on the upper edge - 6,4 inches (160 mm), on the bottom - four inches (102 mm). The horizontal armored deck adjoining the belt was 2,25 inches (57 mm) thick.

Aft cellars defended internal "Box" with a wall thickness of 102 mm. The protection of the nasal cellars consisted of a belt of the same thickness, passing through the outer skin in the underwater part side.

In other words, the Defense Ministry and the Wichita cellar received exceptional protection from six or eight inch caliber armor-piercing shells. However, a significant part of the hull, both in the upper part of the side and in the area of ​​the waterline, remained defenseless before the explosions of air bombs and high-explosive shells.

The destruction of the cubicles and the chain box could be neglected if we did not take into account the format of the naval battles of that time, in which there was a real threat of loss of progress and death from flooding of the extremities, scattered by the numerous hits of "land mines".

For comparison: the armored belt of the main rivals, the Japanese heavy cruisers, with a smaller thickness (102 mm) covered over 120 meters of the length of their side!

The Americans considered their scheme a virtue in the framework of the offensive tactics of the SRT. However, the war proved its unpredictability. Instead of “little blood on foreign territory,” situations arose when cruisers needed to perform various tasks. Act as part of the diverse forces of the fleet. Do not attack yourself, but fight off sudden attacks. Steadily transferring blows of the opponent.

All the advantages and disadvantages described above were proudly passed on to heavy cruisers of the Baltimore type



When once again raptures will be heard about the 160-mm belt armor, remember that this applies only to the middle part of the hull (bow artillery group of the Civil Code and engine room).

The thickness of the Baltimore armored deck compared to its predecessor was slightly increased, from 57 to 64 mm (from 2,25 to 2,5 inches). Such values ​​provided reliable protection against the penetration of 250 kg of air bombs and, probably, from bombs of larger caliber dropped from lower heights.

Excellent performance for the cruiser of the time.

The Baltimore and Wichita armored decks were one and a half to two times greater in thickness than the Japanese SRT, in which the main deck had a differentiated thickness: 32 ... 35 ... 47 mm. But there were two nuances.


Firstly, the armored deck of American ships, like belt armor, extended only over the Moscow Region and over the “boxes” of artillery cellars. It becomes clear why its mass was not even taken into account separately, counting along with the mass of hull structures.

Secondly, the Japanese have a third of the horizontal protection area did not fall on a flat deck, but on its armored slopes 60 mm thick! And this already matches the performance of the best Baltimore.

What conclusion follows from the above circumstances?

The "best in the world" cruisers with a standard displacement of 14500 tons had a very unobvious superiority in security over their rivals!


In terms of armaments, the main difference between Baltimore and Wichita was in six two-gun installations of universal caliber. It is worth recognizing that the Baltimore carried more than five inches than any ship of its class.

The main caliber artillery is a complete delight. The ammunition of the American cruisers included the heaviest, having no analogues armor-piercing shells weighing 152 kg. The small persistence of the trajectory was dictated by the ideal weather conditions of the tropics - the main area of ​​confrontation with the Imperial fleet. Where sea battles could take place at extreme distances.

For other conditions, there were the usual 118-kg "armor-piercing".

The mineslifters contained almost 10 kg of explosives - also a record for ship shells of 8-inch caliber.

Unlike the projects of other countries where they tried to make universal units of cruisers (a vivid example is “Hipper”), the Baltimore did not receive sonars, hydrophones, or torpedoes. In accordance with the American concept, large surface ships were purely artillery platforms, whose zone of interest ended at the surface of the water. The means of searching for surface targets were observation posts and seaplanes, to which wonderful radars were later added. Anti-submarine defense and torpedo attacks were entirely assigned to escort destroyers. A fair solution for the Navy, with hundreds of destroyers.

The very concept of "cruiser" has long lost its original meaning. From now on, it was not a lone hunter, but a large squadron ship that performed the tasks of artillery support and air defense. Also able to take on the functions of the flagship of the compound or an armored tow truck for damaged ships.

We can only guess what the rivals of Baltimore could be ...


The most realistic was the Japanese Ibuki project. Two SRTs of this type were laid in 1942. They managed to launch the hull of one into the water, but did not finish building - neither as a cruiser, nor as a high-speed tanker, nor an aircraft carrier.

The designers of Ibuki were a little less risk averse than the Americans when creating the Baltimore. The result was a polished Mogami polished to a shine.


With such conservative approaches of both warring parties, the situation of the pre-war period was repeated. The Japanese project, speaking as the development of the best designs of the 1930s, still surpassed the American project in offensive power, security and power of the power plant.

The main advantage of American surface ships, which became obvious by the middle of the war, was the quantity and quality of air defense systems. The ships under the flag of the Land of the Rising Sun also received a set of radars and means for centralized control of anti-aircraft fire, but the Japanese did not have their own counterpart to Bofors, as well as shells with a radio fuse.

Nevertheless, during the war, the air defense of Japanese cruisers remained the most powerful in comparison with cruisers of other countries of the world, second only to the Americans. In situations where Japanese SRTs died from air strikes, Zara, Algeri, or York would have died even faster. An example of this is the sudden death of Dorsetshire and Cornwall.

Yielding in terms of air defense capabilities, the Ibuki was superior to Baltimore in the aggregate combat qualities. The possibilities of its design allowed more than could be achieved in the American project.

It was the Ibuki, being completed, that would become the main contender for the title of the best cruiser of the era.

The Germans with the Admiral Hipper cruiser advanced significantly farther than all


Hipper appeared before Baltimore for five whole years. The lack of strict international control allowed Germany to acquire cruisers with a standard displacement of 14 tons before the start of the war. What immediately put the Hippers on a par with the Baltimore and Ibuki.

A series of three cruisers that flew into the Reich at a cost like building two Bismarck-type battleships!

If we abandon unsuccessful design decisions, going to the essence of the concept, then the Admiral Hipper can be called the most advanced among all the cruisers of that time. The Germans were the first to rely not on the brute power of a volley, but on automation and high-quality fire control. At least, they tried to implement their plans in practice.

Automation "in German" led to an explosive increase in the number of crew. 1350 people - one and a half to two times larger than all peers! The fragile analog instruments on the upper deck were doomed almost immediately. Innovative powerplant recognized as a disaster. And on the magnificent platforms stabilized in three planes floorautomatic 37-mm anti-aircraft guns, firing four times slower than the "pom-pom" of the allies.

In traditional categories (caliber and number of guns), the Germans did not even try to compete with competitors, hoping to achieve superiority due to the concept of an “intellectual” cruiser.

As a result, in the technological reserve of the 30s, neither the “brute power of the volley” nor any high-quality fire was obtained.

But even the German designers, no matter how hard they tried, could not completely ruin the 14500-ton ship. In terms of security, “Hipper” has shown excellent results.


The thickness of a Hipper reservation cannot be evaluated without a general protection scheme in front of it. For example, the armored bevels of the main deck were connected not with the upper, but with the LOWER edge of the belt. In other words, the real thickness of the vertical defense reached 130 mm (the shells had to break through the 80 mm belt + 50 mm bevel). Even taking into account the fact that one thick barrier is stronger than two thin ones, having the same thickness in total, the vertical protection of the Hipper was hardly inferior to the 102 mm belts of the Japanese TKR.

But the main thing - “Hipper” was booked almost completely: from the stem to the stern!


Why is Baltimore still the best?


Unlike the Ibuki, it was built. And unlike the Hipper, it did not contain such a mass of stupid and critical flaws.

It’s hard to compare with the Japanese cruisers of the Baltimore pre-war projects. After all, they belong to different technological eras.

The design of Baltimore felt the breath of the future. Portholes completely disappeared in his case (to increase survivability), all compartments switched to artificial lighting and ventilation. The cruiser was equipped with turbogenerators of unusually high power - 3 MW (almost twice as much as that of Wichita, and 1,5 times as much as that of German Hipper). Also, at times compared with its predecessors, the capacity of backup power sources has increased.

Simple technological design, smooth decks, exceptionally high freeboard along the entire length.

The crown of development? No, what are you. The legendary series served as the basis for the even more advanced CRT "Oregon City" and eight-inch machine guns such as "Des Moines", making 90 rounds per minute of the main caliber. It was these designs (1946-49) that became the apotheosis of the development of artillery cruisers of the twentieth century.

14 Baltimors were clearly late for the battle with Japan, but, like other mass projects of the end of the war (AB Essex, destroyers Giring), they became the basis of the post-war fleet.

The quantity and quality of equipment built during 1945 and in the first post-war years covered all the needs of the Cold War fleet for decades to come. With units such as Baltimore, the Americans did not think about laying new warships until the end of the 1950s.


When the time came, the Baltimore formed the basis for two missile-guided cruiser projects. The illustration shows the salvo of the cruiser "Albany" (years of service 1946-1958; in a new look - 1962-1980)
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  1. avia12005
    avia12005 26 February 2020 06: 45 New
    +5
    And yet the most tenacious and beautiful in its own way "Hipper" ...
  2. Potter
    Potter 26 February 2020 07: 00 New
    11
    I did not understand from the article who is better - Baltimore, Ibuki or Hipper.
    I would venture to suggest that Hipper met with a functioning propulsion system with Baltimore, it would be extremely difficult to predict the outcome of the battle, and, rather, even taking into account the excellent MSA of the German ship and its powerful armor, the German could inflict fatal damage to the American before he would have received an answer . Moreover, they will meet in the real weather conditions of the North Atlantic, and not in the greenhouse conditions of the tropics.
    But, the article is a definite plus!
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 26 February 2020 08: 25 New
      +4
      Hippers frail English cruisers so threw that barely carried away his legs. Two hits, and Tkr barely moves - is it survivability?
  3. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 26 February 2020 07: 31 New
    -1
    Thanks to the author. An interesting historical digression at the very beginning of the article)))
  4. Engineer
    Engineer 26 February 2020 08: 58 New
    +8
    Baltimore is my favorite cruiser. Including beauty. Any distortions with five towers and a wave-like body will be left to the Japanese. I do not share enthusiasm about this.
    Good stock of displacement, excellent air defense, etc.
    Now about the sad.
    Baltimore is the same overprice as Hipper. $ 40 million at a Washington DC price of $ 60 million. However, not everything is so sad, the Americans could afford it, and so the conclusion is, do not be rogue. Blaming their ships for high cost is like blaming the most beautiful woman in the company for having silicone breasts.
    A ship like Baltimore USS Pittsburgh epically adjusted when a typhoon lost 30 meters of nose. Weak welding.
    In a battle with Hipper Baltimore is likely to suffer more. The best German SLA. A more complete reservation. Plus Teutons double reservation of the main systems. It is in the afternoon. At night, torpedoes will add to Hipper's benefits. Baltimore can only rely on radar as an advantage. Americans are great at fighting for survivability, but Germans are traditionally good at that too.
    conclusions
    Hipper is the strongest. But due to problems with boilers and the price and small series, he is not a workhorse, but a prima donna. Therefore, not the best in any way.
    Ibuki is not. That's all.
    But our American, thanks to a great series and numerous advantages, is here on a horse. It turns out that he is the best.
    1. Santa Fe
      26 February 2020 09: 44 New
      +4
      Any distortions with five towers and a wave-like body will be left to the Japanese. I do not share enthusiasm about this

      Their opponents didn’t share either, they just paid with blood in a meeting with Japanese KRT
      $ 40 million at a Washington DC price of $ 60 million

      The cost of Washington DC was $ 77 million.
      Baltimore - 40
      Destroyer Fletcher -11 million

      In general, cost is weakly related to size. All American ships had a very expensive and complex filling - each one for its own tasks and features. By the way, the power plants of Baltimore and Washington were the same.
      Hipper is the strongest. But because of problems with boilers and the price and small series

      If he had only these problems))))
    2. CTABEP
      CTABEP 26 February 2020 09: 58 New
      +1
      I personally also visually like Baltimore more.
    3. Hog
      Hog 26 February 2020 10: 21 New
      0
      And here is our American thanks to a great series

      Most of the series went into operation after the end of the war.
    4. Octopus
      Octopus 26 February 2020 10: 24 New
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      It turns out that he is the best

      Yes and no.
      Quote: Engineer
      great series

      4 ships for maintenance in the 44th year. And in peacetime, you can even build a death star.
      Quote: Engineer
      numerous advantages

      Three advantages:
      1. This is an SRT built without perversion by VI.
      2. This is a CRT, built 10 years later than others. Accordingly, the radar SLA.
      3. Balt has no obvious errors. Like German GEM, Italian shells, Japanese lack of radar.
      The rest is mediocre.
      Quote: Engineer
      Hipper is the strongest

      Hipper is peculiar. He is certainly stronger than New Orleans (here, they poke him for air defense on semi-automatic machines, albeit stabilized ones. New Orleans has Browning machine guns and 5 "anti-aircraft howitzers on pin mounts). But in 44 he has nothing special to catch on TO.
      Quote: Engineer
      The best German SLA

      Optical, at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war, the American is by far the best.
      Quote: Engineer
      excellent air defense

      Well, the 44th year in the yard. On the 41st air defense is weak.
      Quote: Engineer
      Now about the sad.

      Time and money, rush and throwing.
      Quote: Engineer
      Americans could afford it

      They could not and did not allow it. The main thing that we know about the Baltics is that they are late.

      Speaking about the Americans at sea, people always mean the Americans of the 44th year. Like the Red Army from the time of the Wisla-Oder. But for most of the war he fought with other weapons, mostly far from the best.

      Talking about the rich Pinocchio, who could (and can now) afford this and that, we are not too far away from the notorious women who still give birth. We relieve those responsible for frankly mediocre, often criminal decisions.

      Sorry for the altistoia, but take the old LCs (Wisconsin and New York), remake from LCR in the Italian style for the same budget (throwing out the middle towers), see what you get instead of Balt for the same money, in the same amount during.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 26 February 2020 10: 56 New
        +2
        You, I look, are back in weapons themes. Did the fiery communists in Stalinist branches end?
        4 ships for maintenance in the 44th year.

        More than three hippers anyway.
        Time and money, rush and throwing.

        Just like everyone else.
        They could not and did not allow it.

        Could and allowed. Late to the meat grinder 42 and the coals 43, yes. But the fact that in 1944 the Japanese did not risk is the problem of the Japanese. And so our head Baltimore has 9 battle stars. Hey Wangard, can you hear me? laughing
        Optical, at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war, the American is by far the best.

        Not strong at that. My findings are as follows:
        1.It is impossible to compare optical and radar SLAs on the forehead
        2. Baltimore equipped with MK VIII arr. 1943 I did not find an error in azimuth for her.
        3. By search to the Radar Germans at the beginning of the war exceeded the same English.
        Talking about the rich Pinocchio, who could (and can now) afford this and that, we are not too far away from the notorious women who still give birth.

        You just once again pull your Americanophobic tentacles to everything you can touch. So our Baltimore is trying to plunder. In hell, a cauldron has been prepared for you between Messrs. Truman and Roosevelt am
        we remove the responsibility of those involved for frankly mediocre, often criminal decisions.

        In terms of headache, Americans do not stand out from other nations. Everything is like everyone else.
        Sorry for the altistoia, but take the old LK (Wisconsin and New York)

        I will not take it. I am not an alternative.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 26 February 2020 13: 19 New
          0
          Quote: Engineer
          You, I look, are back in weapons themes. Did the fiery communists end

          I lived here. It was a punitive operation)))
          Quote: Engineer
          More than three hippers

          Two Hippers, Blucher and Eugen alive did not intersect in time. But this is much more than zero balts as of December 41st.
          Quote: Engineer
          that in 1944 the Japanese did not risk it is the problem of the Japanese

          This is called "late".
          Quote: Engineer
          Hey Wangard, can you hear me?

          Busy talking to Montana.
          Quote: Engineer
          Impossible to compare optical and radar SLAs on the forehead

          Yes, but the Germans did not have time to make a decent radar artSUO, and there was no reason to.
          Quote: Engineer
          You just once again pull your Americanophobic tentacles

          Yes.
          Quote: Engineer
          In terms of headache, Americans do not stand out among other nations

          Stand out. What are the Americans with the fleet in the middle of the 40th year, say?
          Quote: Engineer
          I am not an alternative

          Then you have a harsh real.
          Until the middle of the 43rd year, the SRT from Pence to Wichita. Without air defense. No balts.
          Hipper there would be like a fox in a chicken coop.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 26 February 2020 14: 29 New
            +1
            It was a punitive operation)))

            Straight punished everyone?)
            Two Hippers, Blucher and Eugen alive did not intersect in time.

            DO NOT be a bore. it was about mass
            Stand out. What are the Americans with the fleet in the middle of the 40th year, say?

            Your tentacles are itching again. Why globalize in a rather narrow topic?
            Well, the Americans don't have a hot situation. No yelling "Hannibal at the gate". Just because they live overseas. Therefore, there are a handful of tankers in the 40th, so the 1st Marine Division is not fully ready even by 41, according to its commander. Therefore, the Philippines was planned to be abandoned to the enemy. The bottom line is that they could afford it. To develop industry without much strain already in wartime. No orders 227. At the same time, in terms of learning for war, they were great at that time.
            Then you have a harsh real.
            Until the middle of the 43rd year, the SRT from Pence to Wichita. Without air defense. No balts.
            Hipper there would be like a fox in a chicken coop.

            In fact, no fox in the same Atlantic was Hipper. He planted four shells in Berwick and immediately dumped it. The most striking episode in his career. And for Pacific, he also has insufficient range.
            Conclusion. Both Hipper and Baltimore can be considered the best with only a few reservations for both.
            If without reservations, then the best are the Japanese and according to the criterion of cost - effectiveness and the amount of performance characteristics and the timeliness of appearance. But the article is not about them.
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 26 February 2020 17: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Engineer
              Straight punished everyone?)

              They respawn.
              Quote: Engineer
              Hipper and Baltimore can be considered the best with only a few reservations for both

              Uh-huh.
              Quote: Engineer
              If without reservations, then the best are the Japanese and according to the criterion of cost - effectiveness and the amount of performance characteristics and the timeliness of the appearance

              Yes
  5. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 26 February 2020 10: 13 New
    0
    The design of Baltimore felt the breath of the future. Portholes completely disappeared in his case (to increase survivability), all compartments switched to artificial lighting and ventilation

    This solution was used, for example, on the last battleships of the Russian fleet "Emperor Paul I" and "Andrew the First-Called". The officers complained about the unconsciousness of the sailors, who, hungry for fresh air, started the fans out of schedule. laughing
  6. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 26 February 2020 11: 56 New
    -1
    Can the author express his opinion about the displacement of the "Sverdlov"?
  7. Romka47
    Romka47 26 February 2020 12: 13 New
    +3
    Tell me those who are in the topic on the site for a long time Oleg Kaptsov and Roman Skomorokhov, they type are competing? Is it just that parallel topics come out about the same thing, or is there something special to cover the topic from all sides, so to speak? In any case, I liked the article, although it’s more convenient for me (I’m just getting to know cruisers) to perceive (study) the cycle of Roman’s articles, as from one series to another, from one country to the enemy, there’s a lot to mix, (for amateurs like me who don’t know about the previous Amer series. cruisers had to google something, for example, who are they: Having built a pair of Pensacol, six Notre Hamptons, two Portland and seven New Orleans), although I learned a lot for myself, but for people who are already familiar with all this, it's probably generally simple, convenient and interesting. Article + clearly.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 26 February 2020 21: 15 New
      +5
      No, Skomorokhov began cycles about the cruiser (for some authors began to appear less often on topics of the history of the fleet), and Kaptsov kind of expresses his opinion (he also loves topics on the fleet) As a result, if Kaptsov still wrote something after the Japanese, then Now (and completely unsportsmanlike - personally my opinion) climbed forward, because Skomorokhov has not yet written about Americans - Italians and Japanese have been described. And since here we love Kaptsov very much due to the specifics of writing his articles, we are glad to entom creation repeat
      1. Romka47
        Romka47 27 February 2020 09: 42 New
        0
        Thank you, we correctly painted everything)
  8. Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 26 February 2020 14: 09 New
    +1
    Thank you so much for the informative article, Oleg!
    I have already spoken about the class of "heavy" cruisers, so I can easily decide which of the three listed is the best: definitely "Hipper"!
    It was "Hipper" and its sisterships that were built by the beginning of the war and took an active part in it. The rest, as they say, did not have time.
    This class of ships did not have a clear purpose from birth to death. They could easily replace a light cruiser in operations as an artillery reinforcement of light forces on a one-by-one basis, but they could not replace two light cruisers in independent cost / efficiency operations. They were absolutely useless in the convoy force and extremely dangerous for their crews in the "battle line". As the experience of the war showed, raiders from them did not turn out either. Only Japanese cruisers with "long spears" and, albeit primitive, but universal artillery of the main caliber, were some kind of tactical doctrine. But an attempt with unsuitable means to resist the strongest superpower of that time ended naturally.
    I already wrote that the appearance of a heavy cruiser was groped by the Americans in ships of the "Alaska" class, however, the technical implementation left much to be desired. If artillery and reservations allowed them to perform the tasks of a "mobile wing" and "a fighter of Washington heavy cruisers", then the driving performance disavowed this role. You can throw a stone at not the most powerful AA defense, as well as in an unsuccessful division into compartments. Reincarnation in heavy cruisers of the Stalingrad class was technically flawless, but an anachronism.
    As for “Baltimore”, “Oregon City” and “Des Moines” - all of them, as they say, “did not have time”. The only reasonable would be to create a universal cruiser with a long-range air defense function based on the 8 "/ 55 Mk 16, but in two-gun universal turrets instead of the vague Worcester."
    1. CTABEP
      CTABEP 26 February 2020 17: 14 New
      +5
      Well, proceeding from this logic, the best cruiser is the battleship Iowa. Here you have 33 knots, normal armor, excellent air defense, and just a great main caliber.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 26 February 2020 17: 46 New
        +2
        There is a fair amount of common sense in this.
        The best hipper is Bismarck, which is only twice as expensive.
        Best County is King with the same price ratio.
        Best Baltimore, this may not be Iowa, but at least SaDak. Again with about the same price ratio.
        But for Mogami and Yamato, it does not seem to work. Yamato is very expensive, and Mogami is very cheap for a cruiser.
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 26 February 2020 19: 17 New
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          The best hipper is Bismarck, which is only twice as expensive.

          Hipperheaters, I remember, advocated a small battleship in the form of Charles with 6x38 cm. For the money, the differences are minimal, and the benefits are much greater.
          Quote: Engineer
          Best County is King with the same price ratio.

          ))) Wangard is cheaper. And even cheaper - the modernization of Rodney, Nelson and Hood.
          Quote: Engineer
          Best Baltimore, this may not be Iowa, but at least SaDak. Again with about the same price ratio.

          I say, take pre-standard LCs, there is a lot of extra space. And SoDak is wrecking, the most meaningless ship in history.
          Quote: Engineer
          But for Mogami and Yamato, it does not seem to work.

          Hiryu in a series)))
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 26 February 2020 20: 05 New
            +1
            Hipperheaters, I remember, advocated a small battleship in the form of Charles with 6x38 cm. For money differences are minimal, and the benefits are much greater.

            Haters are nonsense. Scharnhorst in real life is either a quarter or a third cheaper than Bismarck. For 15-inch it is necessary to lengthen the nose (as much as 20 meters) plus a more expensive artifact - almost Bismarck exit
            ))) Wangard is cheaper. And even cheaper - the modernization of Rodney, Nelson and Hood.

            No, Vengard is one and a half times more expensive than King, even with free artillery (11.5 million pounds).
            There are doubts that the British know how to modernize in principle. Have never done anything serious in this field. Yapi are able to
            And SoDak is wrecking, the most meaningless ship in history.

            You probably wanted to say Wangard. And at the same time, Hood
            1. Octopus
              Octopus 26 February 2020 21: 41 New
              -2
              Quote: Engineer
              You probably wanted to say Wangard. And at the same time, Hood

              I just wanted to say SaDak. Wangard is a mistake, Alaska is a mistake, Yamato is a mistake, even the Soviet Union can be forgiven, although not necessary. Dakota is a shame.

              Hood is one of the best ships of his time, the founder of the type of high-speed battleships (he, not Nagato). Unfortunately, his timewhen he was the best, he had to be exactly from one war to another, for peaceful years.
              Quote: Engineer
              There are doubts that the British are able to modernize in principle

              Kvinov and R, especially R&R, sawed pretty quickly. Another thing is that while they were dealing with the old stuff, the turn did not reach the strongest ships. But this is a common misfortune, the Americans also did not reach the Marylands and Tennessee.
              The Japanese, yes, honey.
              Quote: Engineer
              Vengard is one and a half times more expensive than King

              It seems that someone was telling me about some kind of muhlezh with the pound exchange rate. But I don’t remember exactly.
              Quote: Engineer
              Scharnhorst in real life is either a quarter or a third cheaper than Bismarck

              Just between Bismarck and Hipper))
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 26 February 2020 21: 53 New
                +2
                For me, the only criterion of usefulness is a real contribution to the database
                Therefore, Washington and SaDak are useful. Iowa and Hood no
                Quinov and R, especially R&R, sawed pretty quickly

                So frisky that Rivenji went to war at a real speed of 19 knots.
                Nelsons walked with the same speed.
                "High-speed" queens gave 22-23 knots, of which only half were armed with 114-mm station wagons, which backfired in Crete.
                Everyone knows about Hood.
                Shame and nothing else.
                Just between Bismarck and Hipper))

                Let's add 380 mm and it will be almost like Big Dad for the price.
                1. Octopus
                  Octopus 26 February 2020 23: 25 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Engineer
                  For me, the only criterion of usefulness is a real contribution to the database

                  This is a well-known train of thought. According to it (Tirpitz out of competition), the best ships of the war - Congo and the Mediterranean Liza. Then King, the rest of the Germans, Washington.

                  Iowa, Italians, Japanese, French - all in the red.

                  And why is your Hood, who fought with the French in Mers-El-Kebir, not good, and SaDaki, of which one Massachusetts beat the tied and unfinished Jean Bart, are useful? Or by good you mean tanking South Dakota in the second Guadalcanal and its shameless 42-year air defense reports?

                  Quote: Engineer
                  So frisky that Rivenji went to war at a real speed of 19 knots.

                  Where did they not have time? Venetto catch up?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Shame and nothing else.

                  Um, no.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Let's add 380 mm and it will be almost like Big Dad for the price.

                  Well yes, Charles for money is not particularly adequate. The British are beyond competition.

                  As for SaDak, the story there is as follows:
                  1. PMV. The Americans rest against the extreme geometric dimensions of the ship. The Panamax battleship is being designed, a relatively balanced battleship with 16/50 guns.
                  2. 1922. Battleships are frozen. There is time to think carefully.
                  3. 1934. Japan withdraws from maritime treaties.
                  4. March 1936. The second London is signed with the possibility of increasing the caliber limit to 16 ".
                  5. April 1937. London expanded to 16 ".
                  6. March 1938. Americans demand to expand the VI to 45K. In fact, 45K is Panamax battleship.
                  7. May 1938. Wilson Act, the administration gets the opportunity to build an additional LK with a displacement of 135K over the previously approved 6x35K. I especially emphasize that we are talking about an additional displacement, and not about the number of new LCs.
                  8. June 1938. London officially expanded to 45K.
                  9. July 1939. Dakota and Massachusetts were laid. Ships that are pushed into limits by incredible effort canceled exactly a year ago at the request of the US government.
                  10. February 1940. Alabama was laid. A ship designed under the restrictions that the US government demanded to cancel almost 2 years ago. Indiana and Alabama were laid down already during WWII, none restrictions no longer apply.

                  So if Alaska, for example, was just wasted money, then South Dakota were ships that were being built instead those very maximum South Dakot, for which the Americans were bad whether the poor 20 years to design.

                  A shame.

                  Enchantingly stupid situation with Carolina, the slowest fast-moving battleship of her time, looks pretty decent against this background. Well, drop dead Iowa with their drop dead GC.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 27 February 2020 08: 52 New
                    0
                    And why do you have a Hood who fought with the French in Mers El Kebir, not good

                    Because it is impossible to single out Huda's contribution, all LCs had 15-inches. And also because there was not a fight, but speaking your language a set of frags.
                    Or do you mean by South Dakota tanking in the second Guadalcanal and its shameless 42-year air defense reports?

                    And what is so disparaging? Well, it caused a fire on itself. Washington made the result. If Lee does not know how otherwise, then at least so. Result on the scoreboard
                    What is the shamelessness of the reports? They said 33, counted 26, someone says it would have been 17-19. In any case, an excellent to excellent rating. Learn Kingi called. And the pi coefficient is not more than 2. Very modest guys were in the crew of the ship. All this is not somewhere but in the battle of Santa Cruz against the best of the best pilots of the enemy.
                    As for SaDak, the story there is as follows:

                    I read Chausov and approximately remember the design context. For a footcloth plus, but ...
                    Best the enemy of the good. Of the 35 thousandths, Dakota is good. King is worse. Rishu and Bismarck had better think twice before hacking with her, although these are no longer contractual battleships.
                    Most importantly - Dakota managed to Guadalcanal. So everything is timely and adequate.
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 27 February 2020 10: 19 New
                      0
                      Quote: Engineer
                      also because there wasn’t a fight, but speaking your language a set of frags.

                      But is it not so in Morocco?
                      Quote: Engineer
                      caused fire on herself

                      Are you kidding me? She incapacitated herself and swam an artillery torpedo target.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Result on the scoreboard

                      The Japanese melted all EMs with torpedoes, and the carcasses of the LC survived. Including lost control of diabetes. Clean fart. Wildest.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      They said 33, counted 26, someone says it would have been 17-19

                      Someone says that 13 aircraft were shot down on 12 ships. For Dakota, which at that time had 4 quadruple Bofors just delivered, and 3 aircraft were overkill. Chicago pianos, erlikons and 5/38 can not be won much. Browning already removed at that time? It seems to be still.

                      Quote: Engineer
                      Of the 35 thousandths Dakota is good

                      What are the bookmarks in the 35th anniversary of the 40th year? Champions of the Paralympics.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Rishu and Bismarck.

                      35 and 36 years respectively. And with a fig whether Rish is non-contractual?

                      Speaking of Carolina, the 37th year of the bookmark. The Americans needed Rish precisely, there was nothing to drive the Congo, and not this American Sevastopol, LK without armor and LKR without speed.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Dakota managed to go to Guadalcanal. So everything is timely and adequate.

                      And why didn’t the normal ship, which could be laid a year earlier than the Dakota, reach Guadalcanal?
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 11: 05 New
                        0
                        But is it not so in Morocco?

                        Did I praise Massachusetts somewhere?
                        Are you kidding me?

                        Little bit). Naturally inadvertently caused a fire on herself.
                        The Japanese melted all EMs with torpedoes, and the carcasses of the LC survived. Including lost control of diabetes. Clean fart. Wildest
                        .
                        Fortune that day generously gave smiles and shined with boobs not forgetting to turn your ass to both participants. This is war, it happens
                        At the height of the battle, Dakota lost her energy not from the actions of the enemy - the Yapi won the lottery. But not drowned. These are their problems.
                        Lee won the battle. Having lost destroyers and escaping from the battlefield. But he won. No options.
                        Without Dakota, Washington would not have gained much. Fact. Therefore, both LC is a plus.
                        For Dakota, which at that time had 4 quadruple Bofors just delivered, and 3 aircraft were overkill. Chicago pianos, erlikons and 5/38 can not be won much.

                        Once again, you underestimate the five-inch and erlikona. Absolutely in vain in my opinion.
                        And with a fig whether Rish is non-contractual?

                        Since it exceeded the limit by 10%. Although I will not argue here. Almost contractual)
                        The Americans needed Rish precisely, there was nothing to drive the Congo, and not this American Sevastopol, LK without armor and LKR without speed.

                        To drive it is not necessary to have an advantage in speed. Even to Catch up. The Duke of York immodestly grimaces.
                        And why didn’t the normal ship, which could be laid a year earlier than the Dakota, reach Guadalcanal?

                        Dakota turned out to be enough. It is a fact.
                      2. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 February 2020 12: 30 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Did I praise Massachusetts somewhere?

                        Well, only he from Dakot fought with LK. It’s not for Kirishim to remember.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        lost energy not from the actions of the enemy

                        I think I wrote the word somewhere a shame?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Lee won the battle

                        No need to stoop to the level of T-34-76 fans. No one-time success (success, it is necessary) does not confirm the correctness of design decisions.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Absolutely in vain in my opinion.

                        5/38 - this is a barrage fire from the horizontal. The Americans defended themselves against their own (Mitchell) delusional ideas of bombing ships with fortresses. They began to bring benefits with radio fuses and the late MSA, and then it was very limited.

                        Oerlikons are simply pure wrecking. They have an effective distance below the torpedo discharge distance, not to mention the whole idea of ​​manual naval air defense.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Since exceeding the limit by 10%

                        In the final version, when the limit was no longer there. Initially, the French did not vomit to enter.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The Duke of York immodestly grimaces

                        Ah, well, that is, it was a tricky plan, to make the only non-ghostly new battleship at the time except King. King, by the way, is also faster.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Dakot turned out to be enough

                        Also a fig argument. If you know in advance that the only real battle of the new battleships is with the Congo, then Strasbourg is more than enough.

                        That is the problem. Normal LC for war with the Japanese is not Carolina. The normal bookmark LC of the 39th year is not Dakota. Here both smart and beautiful.
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 20: 24 New
                        0
                        Erlikons just net wrecking. They have an effective distance below the torpedo discharge distance, not to mention the whole idea of ​​manual naval air defense.

                        Please remove your jacket and put the phone down.
                        Stage 20-mm anti-aircraft guns went through absolutely everything.
                        Effective Oerlikon distance 1000 m
                        Effective airborne discharge distance - UP to 1000 m.
                        Also a fig argument. If you know in advance that the only real battle of the new battleships is with the Congo, then Strasbourg is more than enough.

                        Then you have an alternative then aftertaste.
                        Normal LC for war with the Japanese is not Carolina.

                        Dakota is a normal LC for any war. There is enough speed for everything except the action with AB, but then they did not think about it.
                        The Americans, with some delay (not long, because in the 41st year of Lk they do not need) received 4 Dakota and 2 Washington. The most powerful linear fleet.
                        If Dakota was the 45th thousandth analogue of the unbuilt Lyon, NOTHING would change.
                        Dakot has an outstanding jamb in the form of electrical equipment that fails to fire. A flaw could become fatal, but it did not. Discovered and eliminated.
                        Dakota won their main battle, the rest from the crafty
                        I beg you not to consider further transition to personality[b] [/ b] but I cannot but note that a man praising the Nelsons with a 10-year process of sex with artillery, and indecent King (the worst of the 35-thousanders), with his beloved Wangard as a cherry on the cake, are trying to get along in Dakota. What are double standards? The British can be mistaken, but not the Amers?
                      4. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 February 2020 21: 13 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Please remove your jacket and put the phone down

                        Only mass executions will save the American homeland.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Stage 20-mm anti-aircraft guns went through absolutely everything.

                        Absolutely everyone began to strengthen air defense with anything. It does not follow from this that Oerlikon has become an effective solution. But all the minuses of excess weapons, ammunition and people on board affected in full. Although with English anti-aircraft rocket mortars not compare of course.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Effective Oerlikon distance 1000 m

                        Yards.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Effective airborne discharge distance - UP to 1000 m.

                        You can also drop directly to the deck. But the range of Japanese aircraft torpedoes from 1.5 km.
                        What is the argument about? Could Oerlikon scare off and maybe even bring down? Could. Was this an effective weapon? No.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Then you have an alternative then aftertaste

                        But you are claiming that Dakota and Washington had enough for Kirishima, no? And the fact that the Americans will need to fight 14 "Japanese is not an afterthought, even in the 37th year.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Dakota is a normal LC for any war.

                        No.
                        Already wrote in relation to Hood. By WWII, the LK ceased to be a ship of the line, but became the "boss" of the strike group. That is, 5-6 knots of difference with KR and AB is a problem.
                        And again. The problem of the Americans, which they eventually recognized, was the lack of a high-speed wing of linear forces. And so they are building new LCs, and again they are slower than any opponent (except Yamato).
                        Quote: Engineer
                        If Dakota was the 45th thousandth analogue of the unbuilt Lyon, NOTHING would change.

                        Had Dakota Scharnhorst not changed nothing. But if America were a country with a rational and timely shipbuilding program, a lot would change.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        in Dakota, a man praising Nelsons with a 10-year process of sex with artillery, and obscene Kingies (the worst of 35) trying to trample, with his beloved Wangard as a cherry on the cake. What are double standards? The British can be mistaken, but not the Amers?

                        All decisions for all of the listed ships had rational reasons. There were no rational reasons to lay precisely Alabama in the 40th year.

                        And what kind of claim to King, sorry? Extremely timely ship. Unlike. Despite the fact that the war with the British began a little bit not in the autumn of the 42nd. The main thing that could be improved is to make it more obscene, immediately go 4x2x15 ", cannibalizing Rtyp, and throw the unspent money into the modernization rage: Nelsons and Hood. But in 35th this option was not even considered by the British: 4x2x15" with new armor and speed did not fit into 35K.
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 21: 55 New
                        0
                        But if America were a country with a rational and timely shipbuilding program, a lot would change.

                        Tired of arguing about the little things.
                        I ask as a non-alternative lover of alternatives. What would have changed in that case?
                      6. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 February 2020 22: 13 New
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What would have changed in that case?

                        Mariana minus two years.
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 22: 26 New
                        0
                        Mariana minus two years.

                        Fantasy. Yes, and not get off here with a shipbuilding program
                        To do this, you must at least evaluate aircraft carriers as highly as the Japanese. Immediately start designing planes for them. Begin the formation of not one, but 5 (6, 10) marine divisions. And dozens of points of all other nonsense.
                        And most importantly, for what? The Americans and so it all turned out well. Or is this just the first step? The next is forcing a war in Europe to prevent the expansion of one political entity that you hate?
                        On the other hand, in the first phase of the war, colossal artillery battles would most likely be waiting for us. I would have looked.
                      8. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 February 2020 22: 35 New
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        forcing a war in Europe to prevent the expansion of one political entity that you hate?

                        OH YEEEES!!!
                        But I have even more radical views on the war in Europe. The notorious education could be trimmed without forcing a war.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Fantastic

                        Wake - halfway to Saipan - is completely undecided. The sad outcome of PX for Nagumo is not only possible, but also allowed by the Japanese side.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        To do this, you must at least evaluate aircraft carriers as highly as the Japanese

                        Already from the structure of the objection it follows that questions to the American Navy may well have a place to be.

                        Speaking of aircraft carriers. As the Maltese convoys showed, fleet operations in the dominant area of ​​enemy aircraft are possible. So it’s not so simple with the genius of the Japanese. But air defense at 5/25 and the Browning must be abandoned longer, of course.
                      9. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 22: 58 New
                        0
                        OH YEEEES!!!

                        It's over, you fight phantoms. Although in the alternatives.
                        The sad outcome of PX for Nagumo is not only possible, but also allowed by the Japanese side.

                        To do this, they had to be even less lucky than at Midway.
                        Already from the structure of the objection it follows that questions to the American Navy may well have a place to be.

                        Of course, but no more than to any other.
                        I do not see any fundamental differences.
                        The US is boosting the construction of the fleet, but is unlikely to appreciate the Aviki,
                        The Japanese begin to fidget, but hitting the PX before the end of 41 is impossible for technical reasons — you need to use torpedoes for shallow water.
                        If the Japanese attack earlier, then in PX there will be even more modest results, or an attack only in Southeast Asia.
                        Americans build more ships according to the opening. If they concentrate more forces in the Philippines, they will only increase losses. In night battles, they will be torn into rags as before
                        If the war starts earlier, then thanks to the radars, the Americans will get an advantage not in the second or third year of the war, but later.
                        The entire pattern of operations is still determined by the presence of aircraft carriers.
                        The same eggs. But the loss of amers is likely to be large
                      10. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 February 2020 23: 10 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Everything is over

                        HERE !!!
                        Quote: Engineer
                        even less lucky than Midway.

                        Why would this be? All drowning is not necessary. Nagumo's problems are possible and expected the Japanese. Nagumo in fact attacked the awakened thrice dragon. Firstly, (from the end) the radar, secondly, the telegram of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, thirdly the dragon itself has actually been fighting for years.. Fart Nagumo is comparable to the Americans apron six months later. With one exception: if six months later the Americans were ready like Nagumo, they simply would not need any luck.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I do not see any fundamental differences.
                        US boosts fleet construction

                        And cancels the surrender of the Philippines.
                      11. Engineer
                        Engineer 27 February 2020 23: 28 New
                        0
                        And cancels the surrender of the Philippines.

                        The more the States send to the Philippines, the grander their defeat will be.
                        Diseases of growth, unmelted compounds, not enough time to master a new technique. Remoteness from the main bases and proximity to enemy bases. Death.
                        Speaking of aircraft carriers. As the Maltese convoys showed, fleet operations in the dominant area of ​​enemy aircraft are possible. So it’s not so simple with the genius of the Japanese.

                        It is necessary to watch a specific operation. As soon as the Germans concentrated a decent group, the actions of the fleet took on the character of one-shot snatching of gingerbread.
                2. Octopus
                  Octopus 27 February 2020 22: 55 New
                  +1
                  PS
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Yes, and not get off here with a shipbuilding program

                  Naturally, I do not mean that the industry will deliver full-fledged AUS with high-speed battleships and super cruisers, and the admirals will sit, watch and go nuts. Where are my South Dakota so rastak you? What kind of Dutch anti-aircraft defense on stabilized central-controlled bofors, give my browning.
                3. Engineer
                  Engineer 27 February 2020 22: 58 New
                  0
                  what else about the Dutch air defense on the stabilized bofors with a central control, give my browning.

                  Immediately give them a cheat code for immortality
                4. Octopus
                  Octopus 28 February 2020 00: 52 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Immediately give them a cheat code for immortality

                  They already have cheat codes. Midway, Kirishima.
                  But really existed in the 40th year decisions on naval air defense were not massively until the 43rd, again, a year. Why do you have the British must be smarter than the Americans?
                  If you look at the pre-war Americans, you will see almost everywhere worthless air defense. Compare Orleans with Algeria.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  As soon as the Germans concentrated a decent group,

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_convoys
                  Infrequently, apparently, succeeded.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The more the States send to the Philippines, the grander their defeat will be.

                  They also say that I am pulling anti-American tentacles.

                  In the opposite direction the Americans, already those Americans, 44, fought for almost a year. And here they need to hold out, not hiding behind the toilet, and how to hold out, block the direction to the East Indies, a maximum of six months. Everything, gasoline is over. Japanese blitzkrieg - a gamble much finer than German.
                5. Engineer
                  Engineer 28 February 2020 11: 25 New
                  0
                  Infrequently, apparently, succeeded.

                  Infrequently.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pedestal

                  That's what happened when it worked out.
                  At the same time, the Japanese are even cooler than the Germans due to the effective use of torpedo bombers.
                  And then they need to hold out, not hiding behind the toilet, but how to hold out, block the direction to the East Indies, six months maximum. Everything, gasoline is over.

                  Without aviation and aircraft carriers, nothing will work. Giving Amers more aircraft carriers than they already had in the 42nd cheating. No Hazemayer will not resolve if there are no shells with radio fuses and good anti-aircraft radars.
                  If the Americans stumble in the Philippines and concentrate the fleet there, they will receive PX in Manila. With the same results for basic aviation. In addition to the aircraft carrier, Japanese base planes will operate. During subsequent raids, the Japanese will take out the oil storage facilities and now the Americans will need to get involved in the struggle for communications.
                  Excellent opportunities against warships will receive Japanese submarines. They will block the harbor with curtains in several lines.
                  And in the sea, the Yankees are waiting for the enemy fleet by two heads superior in night battles. And Kido Butai acting near its bases.
                  Hacking in the Philippines is to stick your head in the mouth of a wild tiger.
                  And forget about Midway. In the new configuration, it simply will not happen. On the contrary. The Americans will be in time trouble, having to carry out hasty operations in support of the Philippine group through half the Pacific Ocean directly to the hornet's nest. As Australia strengthens, affairs in the Philippines will worsen even more.
                  They also say that I am pulling anti-American tentacles.

                  Yes, at least cram your favorite RN into the Philippines. The result will be the same.
                6. Octopus
                  Octopus 28 February 2020 13: 29 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Yes, at least your favorite RN cram in the Philippines

                  I have to sadly agree. The result will not be, but was the same, slightly to the left of the map. Some damn place.
                  So if we add a space cruiser, but at the same time we combine real Kimmel with real MacArthur on one base, it will turn out really worse. By this, the less resources are given, the less will be drilled.

                  Although in general you are very loyal to the Japanese. There will be no air supremacy from Formos bases. The Japanese underwater curtains also somehow did not become famous. What happens to Nagumo in such a situation should be discussed separately.

                  But you and I will finally leave for altistory.

                  Initially, the position was as follows: the circumstances of the creation of the ship should be taken into account. On Dakota's paper, the best 35K battleships are possible, and the Kingies are worse, on par with Carol. In fact, kings are the best solutions available to Britain (claim for details), and Dakota is simply absurd.
                7. Engineer
                  Engineer 28 February 2020 20: 52 New
                  0
                  Although in general you are very loyal to the Japanese. There will be no air supremacy from Formos bases.

                  In reality, the Japanese needed ONE day to install complete air supremacy with Formosa. Strengthen the air group- and I will break it with the help of Kido Butai. After the collapse of the English front in Malaya, part of the forces will strengthen the Taiwanese air group.
                  The Japanese fly from Formosa to Clark Field under the guise of fighters . And you have to fly to Formosa only B-17. I see a quick and brutal scrapping of resistance.
                  What happens to Nagumo in such a situation should be discussed separately.

                  How cleverly you removed the main Japanese trump card. In the Internet battles you obviously do not take up experience)).
                  But you and I will finally leave for altistory.

                  Not necessary play as an alternative. A simple analysis of the operational configuration, taking into account the geography of the theater.
                  The Japanese underwater curtains also somehow did not become famous.

                  Now they will have many times better conditions, minimum routes, 2-3 points of blockade, the mass of warships that you want to leave in SEA.
                  Instead of 31 thousand white amers, you shove several times more into the Philippines. Quietly throwing them is not very successful. A progressive public will not appreciate it. It is expected to get involved in the struggle for supply. Yapi may not even take Fili. Just arrange a reversible Rabaul - a blocked garrison + the remains of the fleet under the rule of the enemy in the air. All supply operations in extremely adverse conditions.
                  So if we add a space cruiser, but at the same time we combine real Kimmel with real MacArthur on one base,

                  Send at least ABC with the entire Mediterranean fleet. The result is beating allies.
                  The only beneficiary of strengthening the Philippines is Britain. The Japanese will capture Singapore, Hong Kong and Indonesia, but most likely they will not invade Burma - there are not enough resources.
                8. Octopus
                  Octopus 28 February 2020 21: 31 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Engineer
                  In reality, the Japanese needed ONE day

                  In reality, it took the Japanese two people to establish this dominance: MacArthur and Marshall. And technically, cutting from Formosa to the Philippines is exactly the same as from Rabaul to Guadalcanal.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  After the collapse of the English front in Malaya

                  If the Americans act freely from the Philippines, then the situation in Singapore is also different. By the way, what about alternative Americans with submarines? American submarines, unlike Japanese ones, have become quite famous for themselves.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  I see a quick and cruel scrapping of resistance.

                  What forces, sorry?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  In the Internet battles you obviously do not take up experience)).

                  )) I had in mind another. In real life, Nagumo went to the PH, what will he do in the alternative?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  You cram the Philippines several times more

                  There the problem is not with the number of people, but with the control of the sea and air. And here the Americans can compete with the Japanese.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  It is supposed to get involved in the struggle for supply

                  Exactly. Alternative Nevi can afford it. By the way, who told you that from Japan to the Philippines it is closer to saw than from Singapore-ABDA-Australia?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  remnants of the fleet during the domination of the enemy in the air

                  With what fright will the Japanese dominate the air? With your piece pilots?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Send at least ABC with the entire Mediterranean fleet. The result is beating allies.

                  I have a much higher opinion about ABS. Well, whoever had air supremacy was Kesselring. Although this will not give any guarantees, of course, war is a living thing. Especially alternative)))
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The only beneficiary of the Philippines gain

                  This should be discussed separately, who is the beneficiary. I will throw in an unusual humanitarian argument. Look in the list of countries participating in WWII for the sphere of co-prosperity. In terms of losses.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  will not invade Burma - there will not be enough resources.

                  Much earlier. The Japanese with resources have a complete seam. He said, against their background, Barbarossa - in general, reinforced concrete surety.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 27 February 2020 11: 31 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    What is the shamelessness of the reports? They said 33, counted 26, someone says it would have been 17-19.

    EMNIP, on Tsushima Nomat wrote that the Sodak commander knew perfectly well that there were no three dozen shot down. But exactly at this moment, the question once again arose about the need for LC and about the continuation of their construction. So that... I know perfectly well that we haven’t shot down so much - but now the fate of the battleships is being decided, and we need all the arguments. smile
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 11: 42 New
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      we need all the arguments

      Immediately I recalled the fresh Rostovlav psto, about comparing the IL-2 with the B-17 by the forces of the Air Force Research Institute.
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 27 February 2020 23: 43 New
      0
      Offtopic.
      Do I understand correctly that the user Prinz Eugen c Tsushima is Kofman?
  • Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 26 February 2020 17: 59 New
    0
    Quote: CTABEP
    Well, proceeding from this logic, the best cruiser is the battleship Iowa. Here you have 33 knots, normal armor, excellent air defense, and just a great main caliber.

    Quite right. The Iowas were designed as a fast, light armored wing. And the role of the backbone of the linear forces was assigned to the Montanas.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 26 February 2020 19: 06 New
      +2
      Quote: Narak-zempo
      The Iowas were designed as a fast, light armored wing. And the role of the backbone of the linear forces was assigned to the Montanas.

      This is an after-fact. In the 38th, when the three Iowas appeared in the Wilson act, there was no talk of any Montans. And no weakening of the armor relative to the only LC already laid down - Carolina - also, of course, was not meant.
  • Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 27 February 2020 11: 39 New
    0
    The fact is that “Alaska” is incomparably closer to “Baltimore” rather than “Iowa”. The Americans obviously could not build more than three battleships a year. And so, at the same building sites as for the Baltimors, it was possible to saw down a dozen Alaska. Not a problem with armor in 9 inches, not a problem with 12 "barrels and towers for them, all this for a large series would give a cost reduction. Here the power plant needs to be increased to get at least 34 knots. And it would turn out to be a completely universal ship, suitable both against enemy cruisers (and if necessary, then against "Ise" - "Fuso"), and against the coast (well, here he is out of competition).
    Of course Iowa (actually my favorite New Jersey!) Is king of the hill, but even six ships can't be sent to a dozen places.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 27 February 2020 17: 58 New
      0
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      and against the shore (well, here it is beyond competition).
      Excuse me, but what goals on the shore require 12 "? Let me remind you that even for the Mannerheim line there was enough" Karelian sculptor "(8").
  • bk0010
    bk0010 27 February 2020 17: 55 New
    0
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    This class of ships did not have a distinct purpose from its birth to death
    In fact, the task of the heavy cruisers was to drive light cruisers. Therefore, they had to catch up with light cruisers, have enough armor to hold 6 "and have artillery exceeding 6" (8 "under contracts). Everything else (in terms of armor and main battery) is redundant. And they had to be enough to control important points and interfere with the frolic of light cruisers on communications. Therefore, their price is quite an important factor. They should not have fought in the line (there should not even be battle cruisers, but they had a painfully suitable cannon). Alaska was just sharpened under the hunt for heavy cruisers, but by the time they were released, the Japanese had no such cruisers afloat, or they were in numbers, to solve the problems with which battleships could be enough.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 19: 17 New
    0
    The mineslifters contained almost 10 kg of explosives - also a record for ship shells of 8-inch caliber.

    In general - 9,7 kg
    To be honest, such a "record"
    British 8 "NOT - 10 kg
    German 20,3 cm Spgr L / 4,7 Kz (m.Hb) -9,45 kg

    Unlike the projects of other countries where they tried make universal units out of cruisers (a vivid example is “Hipper”), Baltimore did not receive no sonars, no hydrophonesnor torpedoes.

    And what does hydroacoustics have to do with universalism? Means of passive defense to avoid contact in time.

    Nevertheless, during the war, the air defense of Japanese cruisers remained the most powerful in comparison with cruisers of other countries of the world, second only to the Americans. In situations where Japanese SRTs died from air strikes, Zara, Algeri, or York would have died even faster. An example of this is the sudden death of Dorsetshire and Cornwall.

    I don’t understand the logic of comparison: how can you compare the air defense of Japanese MCTs of the last period of the war for maintenance with the air defense of "European" MCTs, not only operating in different conditions, but also having practically a "design" air defense of the initial period of WWII?

    The lack of strict international control allowed Germany to acquire cruisers with a standard displacement of 14 tons before the start of the war.

    The control, in accordance with the contract, was, but you can verify the true data by gaining full access to technical documentation.

    The fragile analog instruments on the upper deck were doomed almost immediately.

    Can I clarify the idea?

    Innovative power plant recognized as a disaster.

    When you hammer nails with a microscope, it’s somehow bad manners.
    Let me explain the thought: "hippers" were not at all conceived as raiders (yes, Raeder at TTZ dreamed of 12000 miles at 15 knots), but the final project included 6800 at 19 knots for the first series and 7800 miles at 19 nodes for the second. However, the ships were driven into the ocean. And if you read the ZhBD "Hipper" and "Eugen", then Meisel and Brinkmann have a "red thread" about the need to refuel so as not to be at the most critical moment with empty tanks.
    From this came the thought of an uneconomical GEM: the range would be enough for operations in the North and Norwegian seas, from bases in Germany, but catastrophically not enough for operations far in the ocean, it was necessary to fence crutches from supply vessels.

    As a result, in the technological reserve of the 30s, neither the “brute power of the volley” nor any high-quality fire was obtained.

    And what is meant by "quality of fire"?

    In other words, the real thickness of the vertical defense reached 130 mm (the shells had to break through the 80 mm belt + 50 mm bevel).

    You are mistaken the citadel "Hipper" was overlapped from above by a 30mm deck with 30mm bevels. The deck had a thickness of 50 mm in the area from the shp. 6,5 to sp. 27, where the belt was 70 mm thick.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 19: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Tlauicol
    Hippers frail English cruisers so threw that barely carried away his legs. Two hits, and Tkr barely moves - is it survivability?

    A banal lacquote from which no one is safe ...
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 27 February 2020 04: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Hippers frail English cruisers so threw that barely carried away his legs. Two hits, and Tkr barely moves - is it survivability?

      A banal lacquote from which no one is safe ...

      yeah, every hit. whatever hit is lacquote. maybe it’s in Hipper
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 19: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Santa Fe
    If he had only these problems))))

    And what else were there?
    Real, not far-fetched. :)
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 19: 24 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    More than three hippers anyway.

    Unlike the Americans, the Germans lived in harsher contractual conditions.

    Quote: Engineer
    3. At the beginning of the war, the Germans were superior to the same British in search radars.

    The search (survey) radars appeared among the Germans only in the 41st on destroyers ...
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 February 2020 20: 20 New
      0
      The search (survey) radars appeared among the Germans only in the 41st on destroyers ...

      DO NOT find fault with the definition). You know what I meant
      So, unlike the Japanese, the Germans did not have the goal of destroying enemy warships - their purpose was merchant ships.

      YOU are captaining. The thought was that despite the superiority of TTX, Hipper did not become a pogromist. From the word in general.
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 26 February 2020 21: 22 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Unlike the Americans, the Germans lived in harsher contractual conditions.

      )))
      Deutschlands and Hippers v. New Orleans, 2 Charles and 2 Bismarck v. Nothing. At the time of the Tirpitz’s acceptance by the fleet, even Carolina was still in completion.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 19: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    In fact, no fox in the same Atlantic was Hipper. He planted four shells in Berwick and immediately dumped it. The brightest episode in his career.

    So, unlike the Japanese, the Germans did not aim to destroy warships enemy - their goal was merchant ships.
    So Meisel acted quite reasonably when he did not get involved in a battle with an escort convoy.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 20: 39 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    DO NOT find fault with the definition).

    Even if it is wrong?

    Quote: Engineer
    You know what I meant

    Unfortunately I can not read thoughts. :)

    Quote: Engineer
    YOU are captaining. The thought was that despite the superiority of TTX, Hipper did not become a pogromist. From the word in general.

    And you are trying to pull an owl on the globe, attributing to the Germans what they were not going to do until May 41st. :)
    Meisel had no order to attack the convoy covered by a sufficiently powerful escort.
    When there was no escort, the attacks completely went away, as was the case with the SLS-64.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 February 2020 20: 47 New
      0
      Even if it is wrong?

      Give the right one. FuMO 22, as far as I know, is not interfaced with an LMS, which means what else can I call it except search?
      And you are trying to pull an owl on the globe, attributing to the Germans what they were not going to do until May 41st. :)

      I haven’t attributed it anywhere. Generally. I reminded the user that Hipper was not a fox in a chicken coop in the Atlantic. And you rush to prove to me WHY he was not a fox in the chicken coop. Thank you, but I already know that.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 21: 07 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Give the right one. FuMO 22, as far as I know, is not interfaced with an LMS, which means what else can I call it except search?

    There was no automatic pairing with a firing machine, data from the radar was transmitted to the DAC through the operator of the radio range finder.
    According to the same principle, for example, the British type 284 radar worked, which among the British is listed as the GK fire control radar and no one writes it to the search engines.

    Quote: Engineer
    I haven’t attributed it anywhere. Generally. I reminded the user that Hipper was not a fox in a chicken coop in the Atlantic. And you rush to prove to me WHY he was not a fox in the chicken coop. Thank you, but I already know that.

    You gave a concrete example, from which you concluded that since "Hipper" could not destroy the escort (which was a little stronger, if anything) and did not destroy the convoy, then everything is bad with him ...
    You gave the wrong example, for the same wrong analogy. :)
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 February 2020 21: 31 New
      +1
      There was no automatic pairing with a firing machine, data from the radar was transmitted to the DAC through the operator of the radio range finder.
      According to the same principle, for example, the British type 284 radar worked, which among the British is listed as the GK fire control radar and no one writes it to the search engines.

      This is a good addition. BUT a few questions remain. The main one was whether the shooting was based on radar data. I never heard of this for the Germans in the early years of the war. Or I don’t remember.
      At the contact of Hipper Berwick and in the Battle of the Lofonten Islands, the German radar was used precisely for detection. Therefore, I considered it a search engine.
      You gave a concrete example, from which you concluded that since "Hipper" could not destroy the escort (which was a little stronger, if anything) and did not destroy the convoy, then everything is bad with him ...

      You are a master to think over.
      In fact, no fox in the same Atlantic was Hipper. He threw four shells at Berwick and immediately dropped it. The brightest episode of his career.

      That's it. No one is bad with him. Hipper just couldn’t do it. I couldn’t. And December 31st, the 42nd. also did not master. Just did not master. Not because it sucks, but simply did not master. The stars came together (without irony). Two cruisers are better than one in most cases.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 21: 32 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Unlike the Americans, the Germans lived in harsher contractual conditions.

    )))
    Deutschlands and Hippers v. New Orleans, 2 Charles and 2 Bismarck v. Nothing. At the time of the Tirpitz’s acceptance by the fleet, even Carolina was still in completion.

    Probably interesting to compare spherical horses in a vacuum? :)
    If we compare, then let's determine the date.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 26 February 2020 22: 08 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      let's determine the date

      I wrote)). Tirp is, Carol is not, from February to April of the 41st.

      In the spring, Carolina immediately ripened with Washington, but nonetheless. Until the 43rd, or even 44th year, the Americans did not get rich with new ships, and the old ones are a completely different conversation, without fanfare. So it’s not so simple that it limited anyone there.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 26 February 2020 21: 38 New
    +2
    Personally, my opinion - "Baltimore" bullshit. The Americans increased the displacement by 4000 tons to increase the dimensions for better stability, therefore, to create a more stable artillery platform with solid air defense. Therefore, as the author said, the enlarged copy of Wichita inherited structural defects, the main of which was worthless protection. It is the luck of the Yankees that aviation began to dominate, and if I met (hypothetically) the same Japanese, I am more than sure that they would have pushed it decently. Formally, only MO and cellars with towers are protected (which is the only plus compared to the Japanese, but in any case it is more difficult to get into the tower than into the ship itself), so, purely hypothetically, the Japanese are more stable. failed, because the diferambs are sung on the basis of paper data.
    Take the same "Zary", put an additional 2000 tons of displacement (to equalize with the "Baltimors" and estimate by garlic) on adequate art and hull to compensate for the increase in weight, then in terms of protection they are much better than amers, therefore they are more stable in battle , because better booked.
    So all these measurements with someone more and better are relative.
    Here I like "Bolzano" purely aesthetically fellow By fighting qualities Japanese "Tone" repeat
    Well, let the "Baltimors" like the one who likes them lol
    To each his own...
    PS. Kaptsov, plus for your opinion hi
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 22: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    The main one was whether the shooting was based on radar data. I never heard of this for the Germans in the early years of the war. Or I don’t remember.

    Was conducted, at least during the "Reynyubunga" radar was used to issue target designations.
    By the way, the Germans also used radar to issue target designations for torpedo fire, for example, during the WS5A attack.

    Quote: Engineer
    At the contact of Hipper Berwick and in the Battle of the Lofonten Islands, the German radar was used precisely for detection. Therefore, I considered it a search engine.

    Here the principle worked that "in the absence of a stamp, they write on a simple one": there was some kind of radar, which means it can be used as a survey and the Germans had to rotate the rangefinder dome by 270 degrees (if there were two radars - on the bow and stern PUAO) every 15 minutes.

    Quote: Engineer
    That's all. No one is bad with him.

    OK ... On that and we will solve. :)
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 26 February 2020 22: 14 New
      0
      Well, now we come to a compromise.
      Was conducted, at least during the "Reynyubunga" radar was used to issue target designations.

      Primary? Course angle and distance, or? Without radar observation of bursts? I believe that in order for the radar to be artillery, it must necessarily record bursts of shells. That is, a very decent resolution and a small error. As far as I understood, "Zeetakt" could not do that. It is clear that in these conditions it will be rather a survey. The radar spotted the target - determined the heading angle - turned the towers and rangefinders in the right direction with the desired azimuth. Then the optics does everything.
      By the way, the Germans also used radar to issue target designations for torpedo fire, for example, during the WS5A attack.

      I did not doubt it. Then God himself commanded. It is clear that a torpedo salvo covers a fair amount of what compensates for the error of the radar. Plus, with torpedo firing, you do not need to record short-flying flights. Here either hit or by
      OK ... On that and we will solve. :)

      Well, thank God.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 22: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    I believe that in order for the radar to be artillery, it must necessarily record bursts of shells. That is, a very decent resolution and a small error. As far as I understood, "Zeetakt" could not do that.

    So no one could, until the Americans appeared in the 44th Mark 13 radar, and yet it didn’t stop anyone from shooting at radar data in conditions of limited visibility.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 26 February 2020 23: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    from February to April of the 41st.

    Why do you need "Tirpitz" without SUAO GC, which was installed only in May?

    Quote: Octopus
    Until the 43rd, or even 44th year, the Americans did not get rich with new ships, and the old ones are a completely different conversation, without fanfare.

    Well, let's all without fanfare.
    18 CRT against three
    6 AB vs zero
    15 LC against two
    Will we consider destroyers?
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 01: 07 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Why do you need "Tirpitz" without SUAO GC, which was installed only in May?

      Well, Carol didn’t attack the first day either.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      18 CRT against three

      Six. And I would not be on a par with Northampton with Deutschland.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      6 AB vs zero

      5. Hornet is not there yet. But the Germans somehow do not really need aircraft carriers.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      15 LC against two

      Four. The ball may not be a particularly battleship, but on the American side there is even a dreadnought among those 15.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Well, let's all without fanfare.

      )))
      1. Old successes. I emphasized that I share the construction and the legacy of WWI.
      2. Do you understand that at the beginning of the 41st year the Germans have some other pluses regarding the Americans? And I'm not talking about submarines now?
    2. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 07: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Octopus
      5. Hornet is not yet

      My mistake is to blame. 2 Lexa, 2 Yorks, Ranger and Wosp, I forget him all the time.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 00: 02 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Everyone knows about Hood.
    Shame and nothing else.

    A banal lacichot ... Moreover, incomprehensible because the British did not find a "hole" in the armor and the commission of inquiry signed up for a theoretically impossible - an underwater hit.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 27 February 2020 08: 32 New
      0
      Diskass was about modernization
      Hood is a shame because it did not go through a single normal modernization, first of all, it did not receive a modern SLA
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 00: 09 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    9. July 1939. Dakota and Massachusetts were laid. Ships that are shoved with incredible effort into restrictions lifted exactly a year ago at the request of the US government.

    And what about the allocation of money for this entire construction site?
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 00: 16 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And what about the allocation of money for this entire construction site?

      Quote: Octopus
      7. May 1938. Vinson Act, the administration gets the opportunity to build an additional LK with a displacement of 135K over the previously approved 6x35K. I especially emphasize that we are talking about an additional displacement, and not about the number of new LCs.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 27 February 2020 02: 42 New
    +2
    A series of three cruisers that flew into the Reich at a cost like building two Bismarck-type battleships!

    Actually +278 205 000,00 brands against +378 400 000,00 stamps. This means that for two "Bismarcks" it was possible to build not three, but four "Blucher".
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 18: 18 New
    0
    Quote: bk0010
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    and against the shore (well, here it is beyond competition).
    Excuse me, but what goals on the shore require 12 "? Let me remind you that even for the Mannerheim line there was enough" Karelian sculptor "(8").

    Read how the Pacific atolls were stormed, plowed by aircraft and artillery from 5 to 16 inches in full depth ...
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 28 February 2020 13: 48 New
      0
      Direct support and air raid are two different things.
      Eight inches require several hits to guarantee the destruction of the bunker, which is problematic for the cruiser. In addition, a high-explosive projectile NS Mk 17 when hit near a target can cause a landslide or displacement of structures. 36 kg of explosives look better than 9,7 kg.
      Actually, I am not an apologist for superheavy cruisers. I'm just against repeating mantras, that the ugly brainchild of the Washington Treaty of 1922 is the pinnacle of the development of the cruiser. Well, in the 20s of the twentieth century they nagged, but to repeat this expensive nonsense in the late 30s / early 40s ?!
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 18: 20 New
    0
    Quote: bk0010
    In fact, the task of heavy cruisers was to drive light cruisers.

    In general, all the SRTs had different tasks, but they were not going to drive the CRL, if only because in the 22nd year there simply weren’t such ships ... :)
    1. Victor Leningradets
      Victor Leningradets 28 February 2020 13: 32 New
      0
      And here you are wrong!
      Hawkins-class cruisers (the first among the heavy ones) were created specifically to intercept hypothetical raids by German light cruisers with 150-mm artillery.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 18: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Tlauicol
    yeah, every hit. whatever hit is lacquote. maybe it’s in Hipper

    Excuse me, but what is "each"?
    In the New Year's fight, "Hipper" got three hits of which only one influenced the outcome of the battle.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 18: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Well, Carol didn’t attack the first day either.

    So the actual commissioning of "Tirpitz" is September-October 41st.

    Quote: Octopus
    Six. And I would not be on a par with Northampton with Deutschland.

    Six? .. Six CRT in the Germans in the spring of the 41st?
    But how are Holmes? .. (c)

    Quote: Octopus
    But the Germans somehow do not really need aircraft carriers.

    Yeah ... They were not needed until May 27, the 41st year. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Four. The ball may not be a particularly battleship, but on the American side there is even a dreadnought among those 15.

    All the same, the discussion around a spherical horse in a vacuum ...
    "Gneisenau" under repair - torpedo hit
    "Scharnhorst" conditionally combat-ready - they handed over the boilers (they were afraid to release it to Biscay to cover the return of "Eugen")
    "Bismarck" - as it were combat readiness
    "Tirpitz" is not ready ...
    And what's wrong with the dreadnought against the "twins"?

    Quote: Octopus
    1. Old successes. I emphasized that I share the construction and the legacy of WWI.

    That is, the whole discussion is pulling an owl on a globe. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    2. Do you understand that at the beginning of the 41st year the Germans have some other pluses regarding the Americans? And I'm not talking about submarines now?

    Enlighten, I'm not in kug's .. (s)
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 20: 25 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      So is the actual input

      I did not deal with the actual inputs, I took of the acceptance figure. In fact, Carol only moved closer to the fighting in the middle of 42. This is a pointless argument when actually was ready.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      All the same, the discussion around a spherical horse in a vacuum

      Yes, apparently already forgotten. Discussion around your phrase
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Quote: Engineer
      More than three hippers anyway.

      Unlike the Americans, the Germans lived in harsher contractual conditions.

      To this I began to write that hard-non-rigid, and German WWII SRT is Hip and pickpocket, and American - 7 New Orleans and Wichita, who are far from Balta, and 10 cartons, including even Portland. Similarly for other classes. Accordingly, your attempts to clarify the combat readiness are not about this.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      What's wrong with the dreadnought against the "twins"?

      Arkansas vs Charles? You can’t say right away.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 18: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Diskass was about modernization
    Hood is a shame because it did not go through a single normal modernization, first of all, it did not receive a modern SLA

    Even with kings, the treasury is not dimensionless, and a war has begun.
    Actually "Hood" just barely survived to modernize ...
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 20: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Yes, apparently already forgotten.

    Not forgotten. :)
    Versailles was less comfortable than Washington and 1st London
    The British single-handedly planted a bomb under the Versailles Treaty of the 35th year.

    Quote: Octopus
    To this I began to write that hard-non-rigid, and German WWII SRT is Hip and pickpocket, and American - 7 New Orleans and Wichita, who are far from Balta, and 10 cartons, including even Portland.

    Because you will not count the "cardboard boxes" will they disappear from the fleet? :)
    Or will they not shoot in battle?

    Quote: Octopus
    Similarly for other classes.

    I would very much like to see a battle, for example, the light cruisers of the USA (9 "Brooklyn") against the 41st "Nuremberg", "Leipzig", "Cologne" and "Emden" that remained for the spring ...
    We can count more destroyers if you want ... :)
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 22: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The British single-handedly planted a bomb under Versailles

      Ugums. Especially with submarines they came up well.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Or will they not shoot in battle?

      In a pickpocket battle? I would not advise, not everyone is so lucky as the English.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      battle for example US light cruisers

      Until the 44th year, the most massive type of American KRL - Omaha, I recall.

      Again. Your point is the American fleet of the beginning of the 41st year, even without new ogogo ships. My point - we are looking at the American fleet of the first year of the war in Europe, and the American one too, then this is some kind of total dull sucks. Nevi hit the earth and turned into a swan princess, she is the ultimate death machine, in the 44th year.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 22: 16 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    But in 35, the British did not even consider this option: 4x2x15 "with new armor and speed did not fit into 35K.

    As I understand it, you forgot about the "fifteenth" and "sixteenth" lines of those who participated in the 35th year competition ... :)
    But they adopted the "fourteenth", so as not to "pump".
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 22: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      As I understand it, you forgot about the "fifteenth" and "sixteenth" lines of those who participated in the 35th year competition ... :)

      That is what I have not forgotten. 15 and 16 - three-tower. Need to cut the citadel. Four-tower were only the 14th, but one without speed, the second without armor. It did not fit in any way. It fit in 45K, but all the kings were laid before the expansion of London in the 38th year. Again, unlike.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 22: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    In a pickpocket battle? I would not advise, not everyone is so lucky as the English.

    As far as I understand, you are considering one-on-one spherical combat?
    In addition, remind, if you do not mind, how the "epic" "Count Spee" ended ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Until the 44th year, the most massive type of American KRL - Omaha, I recall.

    Uh-huh ... One more than the Brooklyn.
    So, how will the battle of the German 6-thousanders with the “Brooklyn” end?

    Quote: Octopus
    Your point is the American fleet of the beginning of the 41st year, even without new ogogo ships.

    Let me remind you that I wrote that you do not fantasize
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Unlike the Americans, the Germans lived in harsher contractual conditions.

    And no more ... The rest was fantasized by you yourself, based on the understanding that you understood about the state of Kriegsmarine in the spring of the 41st.
    By the way, you still didn’t answer how you counted six SRT from the Germans in the spring of the 41st ... :)
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 27 February 2020 23: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      how the "epic" "Count Spee" ended ...

      Great luck for the British, it ended. But well-deserved luck, one cannot but admit.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      One more than the Brooklyn.

      Ага.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      how will the battle of the German 6-thousanders with the “Brooklyn” end?

      Obviously lousy for the Germans. The Germans did not have six-inch machine guns.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You understand one thing about the state of Kriegsmarine in the spring of the 41st.
      By the way, you still didn’t answer how you counted six SRT from the Germans in the spring of the 41st ... :)

      I seem to have already explained several times. By built on the date of adoption by the fleet. Do you want to convey to me that Spee and Blucher are not? I know.
      1. Liam
        Liam 27 February 2020 23: 32 New
        0
        Quote: Octopus
        Great luck

        Once luck, two luck ... My god, once upon a time you need skill too! ”(C)
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 28 February 2020 00: 21 New
          +1
          Their skill was, of course. But the fact that God had mercy for all the 280 mm flacques that day arrived was good luck, nothing more.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 23: 07 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Four-tower were only the 14th, but one without speed, the second without armor. It did not fit in any way.

    But ...
    Burt writes that only the earliest "fourteen" version of the Kings had "four twin turrets, placed as on Queen Elizabeth. The rest were 3x4-14".

    Quote: Octopus
    but all the kings were laid before the expansion of London in the 38th year.

    Greetings to British naivety: there was no point in trying to "reason" the Japanese in this way.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 February 2020 00: 33 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Burt writes that only the earliest "fourteen-inch" version of the "Kings"

      I have not heard. In the options for the 35th year, 4x2x14 seems to be like not.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Greetings to British naivety: there was no point in trying to "reason" the Japanese in this way.

      Strange thesis. What does the Japanese have to do with naivety?
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 27 February 2020 23: 30 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Ага.

    IMHO, unprincipled ...

    Quote: Octopus
    I seem to have already explained several times. By built on the date of adoption by the fleet.

    So the date of acceptance by the fleet or still, as you write
    Quote: Octopus
    I wrote)). Tirp is, Carol is not, from February to April of the 41st.

    Here, sorry, or a cross or underpants ... :)
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 February 2020 00: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      So the date of acceptance by the fleet or still, as you write

      And what is wrong?
      Tirpitz was commissioned into the fleet on February 25 for sea trials, which were conducted in the Baltic
      Do they lie to me? What else was being completed there is another question. Let me remind you of the famous story with workers on the Prince during the battle with Bismarck.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      IMHO, unprincipled ...

      19 KRL from the Americans at the time of HRP, Omaha and Brooklyn. And Omaha more.

      By the way, I'm not thrilled with Brooklyn. Unlike Colony, or even the K-series, the meaning of its existence is not clear to me. Again, I am inclined to believe that stories about the miraculous cutting of EMs were invented retroactively.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 10: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    I have not heard. In the options for the 35th year, 4x2x14 seems to be like not.

    According to Burt, this is the very first project of a 14-inch LC, which the British began to think about when the "1936 deadline" approached.

    Quote: Octopus
    Strange thesis. What does the Japanese have to do with naivety?

    In general, it is a well-known fact that the British by their own example tried to "invite" the rest of the signers of the 1st London to sign the 2nd treaty.
    To which Churchill from deep retirement wrote "obscene letters" ...
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 11: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    And what is wrong?

    Judging because you think all built Germany KRT - all not this way. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Do they lie to me? What else was being completed there is another question. Let me remind you of the famous story with workers on the Prince during the battle with Bismarck.

    Do not confuse warm with soft ... :)
    Everything was mounted on "POU", another question that was not fully configured.
    On "Tirpitz" in the spring of 41 there was no assembled SUAO from the word at all.
    If it’s not difficult, tell me how the battleship will shoot without an SUAO?

    Quote: Octopus
    9 KRL for Americans at the time of HRP, Omaha and Brooklyn. And Omaha is bigger.

    By the way, why are you counting Omaha so persistently?
    They are also the "legacy of WWI" in the form of the 1916 program.

    Quote: Octopus
    By the way, I'm not thrilled with Brooklyn.

    It seems to me that since the Americans built such a ship, probably he completely arranged them.

    Quote: Octopus
    Unlike Colony, or even the K-series, the meaning of its existence is not clear to me.

    "Mogami"? "Towns"? No, have not heard.
    "Brooks" are quite normal KRL 1 st London.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 February 2020 12: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "Mogami"? "Towns"? No, have not heard.

      Do you really consider yourself so fucking awesome?

      The meaning of the existence of Mogami is just understandable, semi-finished products of the SRT. Towns are an order of magnitude less drug addicts than Brooklyn. More importantly, the British have different CDs. Cousins ​​only have Omaha and Brooklyn, as I said.
      Which of them, in fact, will cruise?

      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      It seems to me that since the Americans built such a ship, probably he completely arranged them.

      What wildness did not build different countries at different times.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      why do you count Omaha so hard?

      Because we are looking for an understanding of what the "41st American light cruiser" is. That is, I’m looking, but you don’t seem to be particularly.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Do not confuse warm with soft

      I read that the ship is accepted by the customer. Send comments and objections to Erich Raeder on demand.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You consider all built

      At last.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Well-known fact

      In general, a well-known bike. There was not enough money for two new guns, and the old 3x16 "turrets were knocked out in order, as you correctly noted.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 11: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: Engineer
    Offtopic.
    Do I understand correctly that the user Prinz Eugen c Tsushima is Kofman?

    No, wrong.
    V.L. Koffman passed away in November 2018.

    V.L. on Tsushima it was under the nickname VK or VK (the account changed several times).
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 28 February 2020 12: 21 New
      0
      Thank you
      It seemed to me that Prinz Eugen also wrote judging from the context
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 12: 32 New
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Thank you
    It seemed to me that Prinz Eugen also wrote judging from the context

    Not ... This is a completely different person.
    If Koffman, so to speak, worked in a wide range (Germans, French, British, Japanese), then
    Eugen, as far as I know, deliberately delves only into the Germans of the Weimar and 3rd Reich period.

    ZY I remembered V. Kofman had another nickname on "Tsushima" - vov
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 13: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Do you really consider yourself so fucking awesome?

    Don’t ... Never grow up to your FWM dream. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    The meaning of the existence of Mogami is just understandable, semi-finished products of the SRT. Towns are an order of magnitude less drug addicts than Brooklyn.

    You constantly remind me of the old Odessa proverb - "I would be as smart now as my wife later ..."
    Almost all your thoughts are based on afterthought.

    Quote: Octopus
    Which of them, in fact, will cruise?

    Where to cruise?

    Quote: Octopus
    Because we are looking for an understanding of what the "41st American light cruiser" is. That is, I’m looking, but you don’t seem to be particularly.

    Sorry, not "we", but "you" ... (c)
    "Brooklyn" is enough for me.

    Quote: Octopus
    I read that the ship is accepted by the customer. Send comments and objections to Erich Raeder on demand.

    You can count as you like, but from this the ship will not become combat ready. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    At last.

    By this you acknowledge your "schizophrenia": on the one hand, you demand to compare the composition of fleets for a specific time period, and on the other hand, you demand to take into account the ships sunk by that time.
    Double standards on the face.

    Quote: Octopus
    In general, a well-known bike. There was not enough money for two new guns, and the old 3x16 "turrets were knocked out in order, as you correctly noted.

    About the "old" towers, I did not write anything ... You are confusing something.
    Why develop two guns if one is enough?
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 February 2020 14: 00 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      About the "old" towers, I did not write anything ...

      You are right, about 10 years of sekas with the Nelsons, the Engineer wrote, I apologize.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      just one

      One and developed, 14 ".
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      you want to compare the composition of the fleets for a specific time period,

      I never required to compare the composition of the fleets. You hope to tell me that u king Is there a lot of congress? I know, I assure you.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You can count as you like

      I have already clarified my position by dates.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Sorry, not "we", but "you".

      Yes I.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Where to cruise?

      KRL will not do it? OK.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      built on afterlife

      What exactly do you call aftertaste? Secret plan of the Japanese? In reality, neither the Japanese (in truth) nor the British built Brooklyn analogues. And the Americans not only built, but scored the whole limit of KRL with this freak. You think it’s from a great mind, and I strongly doubt the American mind. Just build 9 CRT because the Japanese have 4 similar ones - the level of the American mind is.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 13: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    And here you are wrong!
    Hawkins-class cruisers (the first among the heavy ones) were created specifically to intercept hypothetical raids by German light cruisers with 150-mm artillery.

    Actually with 170 mm artillery ... :)
    The point is that "Elizabethans" are not "Washingtonians", but after the fact they were included in this group. Just because they had to be "defined" somewhere ...
    In fact, they are a model that gave a certain boundary "standard" for displacement and main battery for future types of cruisers, which became known as "Washington cruisers"
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 13: 52 New
    0
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    Direct support and air raid are two different things.

    When storming the atolls - things are equivalent.
  • pin_code
    pin_code 28 February 2020 14: 17 New
    0
    "Alaska" according to the classification is also a heavy cruiser and was built during the war. or not?
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 14: 30 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    One and developed, 14 ".

    Or they could have developed 15 "or 16" ...
    But the "type of diplomacy" won and got those "kings" that we know.

    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    I never required to compare the composition of the fleets.

    What are you doing then?

    Quote: Octopus
    Are you hoping to tell me that the King of Congress has a lot? I know, I assure you.

    I'm happy for you... ;)

    Quote: Octopus
    I have already clarified my position by dates.

    By dates - yes ...
    But according to the criteria of comparison, you rush about like a driven hare. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    KRL will not do it? OK.

    "This" is what?
    The ship is being built according to the TTZ, which describes the range of its tasks, and the term "cruise" you used is too vague. If you find it difficult, explain its meaning ...

    Quote: Octopus
    What exactly do you call aftertaste?

    Your discussion on the topic in terms of information known now ... :)

    Quote: Octopus
    In reality, neither the Japanese (in truth) nor the British built Brooklyn analogues.

    Of course they didn’t, because both "Mogami" and "Towns" appeared earlier than "Brooklyn" ...
    Perhaps this is news for you?
    By the way, the British tried to build their own "Brooklyn" or "Mogami" (who can figure it out): read the history of the design of the "towns" of the 3rd series.

    Quote: Octopus
    You think it’s from a great mind, and I strongly doubt the American mind. Just build 9 CRT because the Japanese have 4 similar ones - the level of the American mind is.

    You greatly narrow the field of maneuver. :)
    This is a standard Anglo-Saxon practice.
    When the Germans tried to balk at the signing of the treaty in the summer of 35, the British simply said: "No problem - we will build two of our own for each of your ships."
    The British said, and the Americans did ...
    We did our best to guarantee a win.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 28 February 2020 21: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      could develop 15 "or 16" ...
      But the "type of diplomacy" won and got those "kings" that we know.

      They chose the caliber that they sold at the conference. As for the Japanese, they were all underestimated. Many noted that the Japanese were very stupid with their peace. If they had published the Yamato data, even before the start of the war, even after, it would have caused tremendous damage to their opponents.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      What are you doing then

      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You consider all built

      I see the clarification was temporary.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      because both "mogami" and "town" appeared before the "brooklyn" ...

      Brooklyn - not Mogami and not Towns. Your cap.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Read the history of the design of "Towns" Series 3.

      Are you talking about 4x4? This is not a five-tower Brooklyn. And there are two taunas of the 3rd series.
      Quote: Octopus
      More importantly, the British have different CDs

      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      standard anglo-saxon practice

      Not in this case. In this case, 9 Brooklyn scored a displacement of 15 Dido or 12 La Galissoniere.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "cruise" is too vague. If you find it difficult, explain its meaning ...

      Communication control. Friends and strangers.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 16: 25 New
    0
    Quote: pin_code
    "Alaska" according to the classification is also a heavy cruiser and was built during the war. or not?

    Taking into account the fact that with the outbreak of the war, "treaty classification" has de facto died out, but it can be called whatever you like.
    The Americans themselves called it Large Cruiser, that is, a large cruiser. In order not to be confused with light cruisers (LC - CL), they gave her the SV index, which gave rise to the legend that "Alaska" is still a "battle cruiser".
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 28 February 2020 22: 24 New
    0
    [quote = Octopus] They chose the caliber that they sold at the conference. [/ quote]
    If we had pushed as we wanted, there would have been no explanations-additions about 16 "and 45 thousand tons.

    [quote = Macsen_Wledig] Many have noted that the Japanese were very stupid with their peace. They would publish the data of Yamato, even before the start of the war, even after, it would cause enormous damage to their opponents. [/ Quote]
    Are you Pereslegin uncovered?

    [quote = Octopus] I see the clarification was temporary. [/ quote]
    Where can I, a mere mortal, understand genius ...

    [quote = Octopus] Brooklyn - not Mogami and not Taunas. Your Cap. [/ Quote]
    All three were built according to the conditions of 1st London. Your cap ...

    [quote = Octopus] Are you talking about 4x4? This is not a five-tower Brooklyn. / quote]
    Yes, about them.
    The concept is the same: increase fire performance due to the number of barrels.

    [quote = Octopus] And there are two taunas of the 3rd series. [/ quote]
    How many limits were enough ...
    And there are ten towns in total, more than brooks. ;)

    [quote = Octopus] Not in this case. In this case, 9 Brooklyn scored the displacement of 15 Dido or 12 La Galissoniere. [/ Quote]
    Again, you confuse the warm with the soft ... :)
    The Americans built "Brooks" according to the conditions of the 1st London and in response to "Mogami" and "Towns" - cruisers of potential opponents.
    "Gallissonters" just as many Frenchmen simply will not stand up - according to contractual restrictions, and "Didot" is generally a product of the 2nd London.

    [quote = Octopus] Communication control. Friends and strangers. [/ Quote]
    "Towns" - yes, I partially agree. "Mogami" - definitely not.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 29 February 2020 03: 57 New
      +1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      If we had pushed as we wanted, there would have been no explanations-additions about 16 "and 45 thousand tons.

      They just pushed as they wanted. Another question is that this treaty limited them and the Americans (who have nothing to do with it yet). Even the French laid down Jean Bar and Richelieu until 01.01.37, when the Washington restrictions (35K / 16 ") were still in force. They somehow underestimated the Japanese.
      But then it turned out stupid. The return to 35K / 16 "did not allow the creation of a balanced 30-node 16" LC. 15 "yes, Richelieu, 16" no, Dakota couldn't. It was necessary to apat immediately and VI, which the Americans did, having lost another year.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Are you Pereslegin uncovered?

      Not up to date on the work of this author. It was understood that American battleships would throw a mountain of resources at an equally useless answer in a triple size, as they usually have, and Yamato would be guarded like Tirpitz, diverting forces from more important goals.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Where can I, a mere mortal, understand genius ...

      Understanding is not necessary, just remember. I talked about what the limited German program led to in the second year of the war, and to what - unlimited American Your persistent desire to tell me that YUSNavi, 41 years old, with her flashdeckers and chests is still stronger, and quite, leave it for another occasion. I was not going to argue with this, it would be strange.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      All three were built on the terms of 1st London

      In the furnace first London. Mogami was built with a known purpose and in connection with the well-known, specific circumstances of the Japanese fleet of the early 30s. Brooklyn was built with the goal of shooting him, an extremely absurd goal.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And there are ten "towns" in total

      And anti-mogu - two. Then the British changed their minds and simply banned such ships in second London. The Americans could not think better of it.
      Complementing the picture is that Brooklyn and Mogami also cost the same, 25M. Dollars and yen respectively. Course 4.25.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "Dido" is generally a product of the 2nd London.

      You are confusing Dido and Fiji. Dido is just a very correct ship, perhaps the most correct one according to the idea of ​​the KRL WWII. Executed, however, in the C grade.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "Mogami" - definitely not.

      Many praise the Japanese, but they have their own Japanese cockroaches. The cult of the general battle led to the abandonment of any KRL, except for squadrons. Leaving aside the squadron KRT - Mogami scout, only small KRL remain - the flagships of the squadrons EM and PL.

      As for the Americans, they drove off in their Fletchers, but with KRL they’ve got a complete game.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 29 February 2020 15: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    They just sold as they wanted.

    If they had sold in full, but there were no additional protocols.

    Quote: Octopus
    Even the French laid down Jean Bar and Richelieu until 01.01.37, when the Washington restrictions (35K / 16 ") were still in effect.

    The French and Italians had the right to bookmark two new "standard" LCs until 1936.

    Quote: Octopus
    Not up to date on the work of this author.

    And the conclusions are just like from his "imperishable". :)

    Quote: Octopus
    It was understood that American battleships would throw a mountain of resources at an equally useless answer in a triple size, as they usually have, and Yamato would be guarded like Tirpitz, diverting forces from more important goals.

    The question is interesting (in the sense it would be interesting to look at the events according to the scenario you described), but unfortunately it is completely alternative ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Understanding is not necessary, just remember.

    The stream of consciousness is hard to perceive ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Your persistent desire to tell me that USNavi, 41 years old, with her flashdeckers and chests is still stronger, and quite leave for another occasion.

    Why, why, I didn’t say this ... :)

    Quote: Octopus
    In the furnace first London. Mogami was built with a known purpose and in connection with the well-known, specific circumstances of the Japanese fleet of the early 30s. Brooklyn was built with the goal of shooting him, an extremely absurd goal.

    Once again I repeat: it’s you who are so smart now: in 1930, the Americans knew only that the Japanese in 8500 tons shoved 15x155 mm guns and that’s all ... And they reacted accordingly.

    Quote: Octopus
    And anti-mogu - two. Then the British changed their minds and simply banned such ships in second London. The Americans could not think better of it.

    Why should the Americans "think again"?
    It is the British who need cruisers "in more numbers, at a cheaper price", because the Empire does not go over the same.
    For the British, a vital necessity is to have a mountain of cruisers (according to the estimates of the Admiralty - up to 70 units), of which 2/3 should cover communications.
    Therefore, they came up with 2 tons and 8000 mm GK for 155nd London ...

    Quote: Octopus
    You are confusing Dido and Fiji. Dido is just a very correct ship, perhaps the most correct one according to the idea of ​​the KRL WWII. Executed, however, in the C grade.

    I don’t confuse anything ... :)
    Both types of cruisers are offspring of 2nd London.

    Quote: Octopus
    Dido is just a very correct ship, perhaps the most correct one according to the idea of ​​the KRL WWII. Executed, however, in the C grade.

    And what is it right about?

    Quote: Octopus
    As for the Americans, they drove off in their Fletchers, but with KRL they’ve got a complete game.

    What is the game?
    We have the same paradigm, close to the Japanese: "Atlanta" is the leader cruiser EM, "Cleveland" is the squadron cruiser.
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 1 March 2020 10: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      If sold in full

      They sold as they wanted, but they underestimated the Japanese. The Japanese then all underestimated.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The French and Italians had the right

      Yeah
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      completely alternative

      Yes. But arguing about the correctness of a particular solution without an alternative in any way, unfortunately.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      I didn’t say that

      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Well, let's all without fanfare.
      18 CRT against three
      6 AB vs zero
      15 LC against two
      Will we consider destroyers?

      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      the Americans only knew that the Japanese in 8500 tons shoved 15x155 mm guns and that’s all.

      A strange argument for an adult. The Japanese still gave swords to everyone, why do not Americans?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      For the British, a vital necessity is to have a mountain of cruisers

      Yes.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Both types of cruisers - spawn of 2nd London

      Are the arethusa with danae also ugly creatures of the London treaty?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And what is it right about?

      Specialized air defense cruiser. What Atlanta has become in the last subseries. But executed poorly.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      We have the same paradigm, close to the Japanese: "Atlanta" is the leader cruiser EM, "Cleveland" is the squadron cruiser.

      43rd year. By the way, both shit. And on the date of HRP - Brooklyn and Omaha.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 1 March 2020 13: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    They sold as they wanted, but they underestimated the Japanese. The Japanese then all underestimated.

    And the fact that the Japanese immediately notified of the reluctance to sign the 2nd London did not bother anyone?

    Quote: Octopus
    Well, let's all without fanfare.
    18 CRT against three

    Stop stop ...
    I wrote this, after you named a specific date - it is not interesting to discuss a spherical horse in a vacuum.

    Quote: Octopus
    A strange argument for an adult. The Japanese still gave swords to everyone, why do not Americans?

    A strange argument for an adult. (with)
    After all, you can look at Jane to understand why the Americans acted in this way and not otherwise ...


    Quote: Octopus
    Are the arethusa with danae also ugly creatures of the London treaty?

    "Danae"? Are you confusing anything?
    As for "aretyuz", it turned out that it would not be possible to build a lot of "linders" and had to cut the sturgeon.
    So 1st London in full growth ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Specialized air defense cruiser.

    He's not specialized at all ... The same story happened with him as with Atlanta.
    Read "British Cruisers in WWII" by Raven and Roberts or "British Cruisers Two World Wars and After" by Friedman
    The same story happened with Dido as with Atlanta.

    Quote: Octopus
    By the way, both shit.

    Eh ... you would be in the USA in the late 30s.
    You would have shown how to build ships. :)
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 1 March 2020 18: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You would have shown how to build ships. :)

      A fighter with a laptop (s).
      But yes, the Americans made a lot of mistakes.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The same story happened with Dido as with Atlanta.

      The opposite. Dido has 5 KDPs, but the artillery failed.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "Danae"? Are you confusing anything?

      Before London there were no English cruisers in 5-6K? What did the first London have to do with 6K cruisers?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      After all, you can look at Jane to understand

      What Mogami 6 pieces? Is it a reason to build pseudo-heavy CRs instead of light ones?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And the fact that the Japanese immediately notified of the reluctance to sign the 2nd London did not bother anyone?

      Hopefully. With all my might (s).
  • Constanty
    Constanty 1 March 2020 13: 47 New
    +1
    In my opinion, comparable ones should be compared. Heavy cruisers "Washington" was built according to one of the technical requirements, limitations and conditionally at the same time.

    It is not the art of building the best ship, exceeding the limit by 50% after a few years, when the level of technology (and the supply of experience) was at a different level. "Baltimore" is not here, even Hipper, but already fits more, despite the size.

    I think the best cruiser "A" was the French. Algerie. Balanced with a decent range, very good armor and an excellent torpedo defense system - at the level of a battleship.

    What is considered to be the greatest advantage of the Baltimore is radars, the air defense control system is not a feature of the ship, but equipment belonging to a given country.
    An example again is the French Richelieu - this ship received all these elements (along with Bofors and Oerlikons) during modernization in 1943. “If the Algerie had the same upgrade at an American shipyard, then in 1944 a comparison with other cruisers, including the Baltimore, would have been a great ship. This is only easily assembled equipment that does not penetrate deeply into the structure of the ship, such as the engine room, armor, main armament.

    Americans are surprised - why do they need "Baltimore", these "Alaska", "Guam" - it was better to build 4-6 ships of the "Iowa" type, more - without repairing sunken ships Perl Harbor for colossal money. Shipyards will still be occupied with the same cost, maybe even less, and the potential is incomparably greater.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 1 March 2020 19: 15 New
    0
    [quote = Octopus] But yes, the Americans made a lot of mistakes. [/ quote]
    You can clearly see this in 80 years, because the ships have recaptured, the characteristics of their opponents, etc. are known.

    [quote = Octopus] The opposite. Dido has 5 KDP, but the artillery failed. [/ Quote]
    Dido has two PUAЗAbout the main caliber.
    The rest are KDP GK for firing at surface targets and two PUAO pom-pom-poms; for the control of anti-aircraft fire GK can not be used.

    [quote = Octopus] Before London there were no 5-6K English cruisers? What did the first London have to do with 6K cruisers? [/ Quote]
    There were, but 1st London limited the total tonnage (but not quantity) of KRL.

    [quote = Octopus] What Mogami 6 pieces? [/ quote]
    Because 4 "mogami" + 2 "tone".

    quote = Octopus] Is this the reason to build pseudo-heavy CDs instead of light ones? [/ quote]
    This is the foundation for building the Brooklyn. :)

    [quote = Octopus] Hopefully. With all my might (s). [/ Quote]
    Well, who is the doctor for them ...
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 2 March 2020 02: 23 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      You can clearly see this in 80 years, because the ships have recaptured, the characteristics of their opponents, etc. are known.

      And the Americans in July 41, when they cut Japan's oil, it was not clear that they had two new Carolina and that's all, more than a single ship of new projects on the go.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The rest are KDP GK for firing at surface targets and two PUAO pom-pom-poms; for the control of anti-aircraft fire GK can not be used.

      There are different opinions on this subject. It is necessary to clarify what was there in real life. In the sense of the ability to control station wagons with Pompom directors. In any case, 4 UAZO directors, the 5th seems to be universal. Atlanta had the original pianos with manual control, two directors.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      There were, but 1st London limited the total tonnage (but not quantity) of KRL.

      So what? Why is it your cruiser - the followers of the WWI ships suddenly became the brainchild of the contract of the 30th year?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Because 4 "mogami" + 2 "tone".

      So what?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      This is the foundation for building the Brooklyn. :)

      For the French and the Dutch, this was the basis for building, or at least designing, a super cruiser.
      As for the after-war, the war showed that the Americans most of all needed a small cruiser / leader with generalists in pre-war terms. Which, instead of the leader of the destroyers, became simply called the destroyer.
      Gearing type.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Well, who is the doctor for them ...

      Twice a ride.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 2 March 2020 18: 56 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    And the Americans in July 41, when they cut Japan's oil, it was not clear that they had two new Carolina and that's all, more than a single ship of new projects on the go.

    And what does politics have to do with ship design?
    Moreover, all pre-war plans were built without taking into account the absence / availability of new ships.

    Quote: Octopus
    There are different opinions on this subject. It is necessary to clarify what was there in real life. In the sense of the ability to control station wagons with Pompom directors. In any case, 4 UAZO directors, the 5th seems to be universal.

    Where can I get opinions?

    Quote: Octopus
    So what? Why is it your cruiser - the followers of the WWI ships suddenly became the brainchild of the contract of the 30th year?

    I will repeat once again: "Aretyuz" appeared because "Linders", if they were built in proper quantities, quickly gobbled up the displacement limit of the KRL allocated under the contract, so we decided to build a little "Aretuse" ...

    Quote: Octopus
    So what?

    Yes, actually everything: this is the answer why the Americans began to build "Brooklyn" ...

    Quote: Octopus
    For the French and the Dutch, this was the basis for building, or at least designing, a super cruiser.

    Again, you confuse the warm with the soft ... :)
    The Dutch had nothing to oppose the Japanese SRT, so they decided to attend to the construction of a ship capable of, in their opinion, guaranteed to kill the SRT - this is how 1047 appeared.
    And what kind of paints did the French design?

    Quote: Octopus
    As for the after-war, the war showed that the Americans most of all needed a small cruiser / leader with generalists in pre-war terms.

    This is some very strong aftertaste ... :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Twice a ride.

    There were external and internal reasons in Japan ...
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 2 March 2020 22: 30 New
      0
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      There were external and internal reasons in Japan ...

      Yes. But the goejins were not very up to date. Specifically, these are generally a lot of things that were not in the know, in London, the very same Stanley Baldwin, who concluded the maritime treaty with Germany, predominates. So your claims to the wisdom of future Allies are certainly true, but against the general background is a trifle.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      This is some kind of very strong aftertaste.

      Akizuki, July 1940. First Dido, August 1937.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      What LCR were designed by the French?

      Dunkirk.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      the construction of a ship capable of, in their opinion, guaranteed to kill the SRT

      This is a slightly more meaningful action than the construction of the KRL.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Yes, actually everything: this is the answer why the Americans began to build "Brooklyn" ...

      Your confidence that the Americans must necessarily be dumber than the Japanese is amazing. Once again, the Japanese not they built the Mogami as a 6 "machine gun. And the Americans just built it.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Where can I get opinions?

      I do not think that the link to LJ in this matter is sufficient. But remaining within the framework of consensus, we get 2 POISO universals (English stabilized POISO was the best optical POISO in the world while working) and 2 POISO SZA. Atlanta has no NWA and, accordingly, POISO NWA, two directors + manual MZA. And among other things, there is no Atlant itself: on the date of the entry of Atlanta Dido, 8 pieces were built.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      quickly gobbled up the KRL displacement limit allocated under the contract

      Yes. How Brooklyn gobbled up. So you have Arethusa's brainchild, or Brooklyn cuckoo?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      And what does politics have to do with ship design?
      Moreover, all pre-war plans were built without taking into account the absence / availability of new ships.

      Bingo.
      This is what I am presenting to the Americans, in fact. That the policy is carried out without taking into account the presence / absence of new ships. And the presence / absence of new ships, in turn, is not coordinated with politics. Unlike the British, they were bad or good.
  • Macsen_wledig
    Macsen_wledig 2 March 2020 23: 16 New
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    Akizuki, July 1940. First Dido, August 1937.

    1. What is the connection between "Akizuki" and "Dido"
    2. I repeat: Dido is not an air defense cruiser.

    Quote: Octopus
    Dunkirk.

    "Dunkirk" was built not against the Japanese MRT, but against "pocket battleships" if that ...

    Quote: Octopus
    This is a slightly more meaningful action than the construction of the KRL.

    On the one hand, Holland did not participate in the system of international treaties, so it was free to build whatever it wanted, if it had finances. On the other hand, Project 1047 was developed in 1939-40, that is, practically in parallel with "Alaska", so your stone is past the box office. :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Your confidence that the Americans must necessarily be dumber than the Japanese is amazing.

    If you have information that the Americans in 30-33 years knew about the Japanese plan to re-equip "Mogami" with 8 "GK - proofs in the studio ... :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Once again, the Japanese did not build the Mogami as a 6 "machine gun, but the Americans did.

    Once again, you know this now. And the Americans back in 1940 were sure that the Mogami had a 155-mm main battery, the first information about rearmament appeared only by the end of 41 ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Atlanta has no NWA and, accordingly, POISO NWA, two directors + manual MZA.

    As I understand it, "Chicago pianos" with their directors, you didn't want to count ... :)

    Quote: Octopus
    Atlant: on the date of the Atlanta Dido commissioning, 8 were built.

    Again, your message is not clear: neither the first nor the second were air defense cruisers, so the British did not become "Nostradamus" ...

    Quote: Octopus
    Bingo.
    This is what I am presenting to the Americans, in fact. That the policy is carried out without taking into account the presence / absence of new ships.

    Again, you reason in terms of afterglow.
    In the middle of 41, American "rainbow-orange" plans were developed on the basis of cash at that time and were considered quite feasible in American maritime circles.
    So the presence / absence of new drugs did not play any role ...
    1. Octopus
      Octopus 3 March 2020 09: 13 New
      -1
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      1. What is the connection between "Akizuki" and "Dido"
      2. I repeat: Dido is not an air defense cruiser.

      Such that Gering has an afterthought among the Americans, and the Japanese lay it in the 40th year as the new main type of EM. In response to the English non-cruiser air defense (light squadron cruiser) of the 37th year.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      "Dunkirk" was built not against the Japanese MRT, but against

      German
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      that is, almost in parallel with "Alaska",

      Alaska has been dancing since the beginning of the 30s. As a result, neither Alaska nor Balta.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Once again, you know it now

      The Japanese knew that they did not need the Mogami as they were. The Americans did not know that they did not need Brooklyn. The fact that Americans have excuses does not make them right.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      As I understand it, "Chicago pianos" with their directors, you didn't want to count

      Mk44? I didn't want to. Included in the category 'Manual control valves'.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Your message is not clear: neither the first nor the second were air defense cruisers

      Dido vs Omaha.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      were considered to be quite feasible in American maritime circles.

      Yeah. Iron problems are an extremely small part of the American naval problems of the early 40s.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      the presence / absence of new drugs did not play any role

      The presence / absence of a new one did not play any role. Except for the fact that the fleet was engaged in gambling for 2 years of the war, like Midway.