Tommaso Torquemada. The man who became a symbol of the terrible era

Tommaso Torquemada on the right hand of Queen Isabella. Monumento a Isabel la Catolica, Madrid

Tommaso Torquemada is a symbolic person not only for Spain, but for the whole of Europe and even the New World. He was an outstanding person, and not only hundreds of scientific works were written about him - from articles to full-fledged monographs, but many plays, novels, and even poems. For example, here are some lines Henry Wadsworth Longfellow dedicated to him:

In Spain, from fear of numbness,
Ferdinand and Isabella reigned
But ruled with an iron hand
The great inquisitor over the country.
He was cruel as the lord of hell
The Grand Inquisitor of Torquemada.

"Catholic Kings" Isabella and Ferdinand. Shot from the film “Christopher Columbus. The Conquest of America ”(Great Britain, Spain, USA, 1992)

Tommaso de Torquemada

Longfellow's attitude to the hero is quite understandable and unambiguous. Impressive readers face a black figure of a gloomy ascetic, turning a cheerful Spain warmed by the southern sun into a dull country of obscurantists and religious fanatics covered in smoke of the Inquisition bonfires.

In a different incarnation, Torquemada appears in the drama of Victor Hugo. This author is trying to understand the inner motives of his hero:

He who does not help people does not serve God.
I want to help. Not that - total hell
Absorb everything and everything. I am treating poor children
Bloody hand. Saving, I torture
And terrible pity for the saved I feed.
Great love is formidable, faithful, firm.
... in the darkness of my night
Christ tells me: “Go! Go bold!
"The goal will justify everything if you reach the goal!"

Also a fanatic, but not a narrow-minded sadist.

There is a third point of view, according to which Torquemada, like Richelieu in France, fought for unity in the throes of the emerging new country, which he, like a puzzle, assembled from diverse and not very similar parts. But the Inquisition was only a means: if Torquemada would be a secular duke, the methods would be different, but cruelty would not go away. F. Tyutchev wrote about this (about another person and for another reason) in 1870:

Unity, the oracle of our day declared,
Perhaps soldered with iron and blood only ...

Beautiful lines, but actually “iron and blood”, alas, very often prove to be stronger than love.

Traditional assessment of the identity of Tommaso Torquemada and his activities

The hero of our article, Tommaso de Torquemada, was born in 1420 and lived a long life even by today's standards, having died at the age of 78 years - September 16, 1498.

Few of his contemporaries managed to leave such a significant mark in storiesbut the trace turned out to be bloody.

The French writer Alfons Rabb, in his Resume de l'hist oire d'Espagne, called Torquemada “terrible,” his compatriot Jean Marie Fleurio “the monster,” Manuel de Maliani “the insatiable executioner,” Louis Viardot, “the merciless executioner, the bloody the outrages of which were even reproved by Rome. ” G. K. Chesterton in the book "St. Thomas Aquinas" put him on a par with Dominic Gusman, writing:

"Calling a child Dominic is almost the same as calling him Torquemada."

In general, as Daniel Kluger wrote:

Grand Inquisitor of Torquemada
He spread his wings over the city
Bonfires are his joy and delight.

And even his last name, originating from the name of the town in which the future Grand Inquisitor was born (a combination of the words “torre” and “quemada” - “The Burning Tower”), seems to be speaking.

Burning heretics, medieval drawing. Illustration from the book of the XNUMXth century Russian historian Mikhail Barro

Alternative point of view

However, as often happens, in the united kingdoms the activities of Torquemada were assessed ambiguously, and there were people quite pleased with him. In Spain of those years, one can notice a certain sympathy and sympathy for the Tribunal of the Inquisition and for Torquemada. Many quite seriously believed that the church and teachings of Christ were in serious danger and needed protection. These apocalyptic sentiments are reflected in the XNUMXth century miniature Fortress of Faith below:

The Fortress of Faith besieged by heretics is defended by the pope, bishops, monks and church doctors

A contemporary of events, the chronicler Sebastian de Olmedo quite sincerely calls Torquemada "the hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the savior of his country, the honor of his order (Dominicans)."

As early as 1588, Prescott wrote in Commentarii rerum Aragonensium:

“Ferdinand and Isabella gave the greatest evidence of mercy and wisdom, when, in order to rid heretics and apostates of pernicious mistakes, as well as to crush their insolence, they created a holy inquisition, an institution, the usefulness and merits of which are recognized not only by Spain, but also by all Christian world. "

The French historian of the twentieth century, Fernand Braudel, believed that the Inquisition embodied the "deep desire of the crowd."

There were other reasons for the popularity of Torquemada. The restriction of the rights of Jews and Morisks opened up new opportunities for Spanish Christians. Jews and descendants of the Moors who left for emigration were often forced to sell their property for nothing, the house was sometimes sold at the price of a donkey, the vineyard for a piece of canvas, which also could not but rejoice their neighbors. In addition, their genoese competitors were vitally interested in the fall of influential merchant and bankers' houses of descendants of baptized Jews: they quickly mastered a promising new market for goods and financial services.

Today, some historians criticize the "black legend" about both the Spanish Inquisition and Torquemada, believing that it was created for propaganda purposes during the Reformation, and aimed at denigrating the Catholic Church. And then the great French philosophers of the Enlightenment and revolutionary writers joined the Protestants. In the XVIII volume of the famous "Encyclopedia" there are such lines:

"Torquemada, the Dominican who became a cardinal, gave the tribunal of the Spanish Inquisition the legal form that exists today and is contrary to all the laws of mankind."

The authors of the modern British Encyclopedia share this point of view; Torquemada says:

"His name has become a symbol of the horrors of the Inquisition, religious bigotry and cruel fanaticism."

Victims of Tommaso Torquemada

Jean Baptiste Delisle de Salle in the book "Philosophy of Nature" (1778) writes:

"The Dominican, who called himself Torquemada, boasted that he condemned one hundred thousand people and burned six thousand people at the stake: in order to reward this great inquisitor for his zeal, he was made a cardinal."

Antonio Lopez de Fonseca in the book "Politics Cleared of Liberal Illusions" (1838) reports:

“The Inquisition Tribunal under Torquemada, during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella, from 1481 to 1498, exterminated 10 people at the stake; he executed the images of 220 people, and also sentenced 6860 people to galleys and imprisonment. ”

Maximilian Schell in 1831:

“Torquemada died in 1498; it was estimated that over the eighteen years of his inquisitorial rule, 8800 people were burned, 6500 were burned in the form of images, or after their death, and 90 were punished by shame, confiscation of property, life imprisonment and dismissal. ”

A small clarification: in fact, the “inquisitorial rule” of Torquemada lasted 15 years.

Friedrich Schiller, in History of the Uprising in the Netherlands Against Spanish Government, says:

“For thirteen to fourteen years, the Spanish Inquisition conducted 100 thousand processes, sentenced 6 thousand heretics to be burned, and converted 50 thousand people to Christianity.”

Juan Anetonio Llorente, who himself was the secretary of the Inquisition Tribunal in Madrid at the end of the 8th century, and then became the first serious historian of the Inquisition, cites other data: under Torquemada, 800 people were burnt alive, instead of the other 6 convicted in absentia, their straw effigies were burnt. , 500 people were arrested and tortured.

“His abuse of his immense powers should have forced him to abandon the idea of ​​giving him a successor and even destroy the bloody tribunal, so incompatible with the gospel meekness”

- writes Llorente about this.

Juan Antonio Llorente, portrait

To many, these numbers seem overstated. Pierre Chaunoux, for example, believed that the figures of Llorente "must be divided by at least two."

Abbot Elfezh Wakandar in the book "Inquisition" (1907) writes:

“The most moderate estimates show that during the time of Torquemada, about two thousand people were burned at the stake ... During the same period, fifteen thousand heretics were reconciled with the Church through repentance. This gives a total of seventeen thousand processes. "

Modern scholars estimate the number of autodafe under Torquemada at 2200, about half of them were "symbolic" - which, of course, is also a lot.

Autoodaf

Among those who were positive about the activities of the Spanish Inquisitors and Torquemada, there was a famous freemason, Catholic philosopher and diplomat Joseph de Mestre.

Joseph-Marie de Maistre (1753-1821), portrait

At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, while fulfilling the duties of the Sardinian envoy in St. Petersburg at that time, in "Letters to a Russian nobleman about the Inquisition," he argued that the creation of the Inquisition in Spain was a defensive reaction to the Jewish and Islamic threat, which, in his opinion, was quite real.

Juan Antonio Llorente already mentioned by us wrote:

“A huge number of Moors accepted the Christian faith pretended or completely superficial; their conversion to a new religion was based on a desire to gain the respect of the victors; being baptized, they again began to practice Mohammedanism. "

Meanwhile, Adeline Ryukua in the book "Medieval Spain" indicates that

“In the Middle Ages, religion was the equivalent of the law (people lived according to the laws of Mohammed, according to Jewish or Christian laws), it only became a cultural phenomenon in the XNUMXth century.”

That is, a person who does not follow the commandments of the holy books of the country where he lives was considered a criminal by medieval standards.

The Wakandar already quoted by us writes:

“If we really want to justify the institution for which the Catholic Church took responsibility in the Middle Ages (the Inquisition), we need to consider and judge it not only by actions, but also comparing it with the morality, justice and religious beliefs of that time.”

The Catholic Encyclopedia, published by the Vatican, states:

“In modern times, researchers strictly judged the institution of the Inquisition and accused her of opposing freedom of conscience. But they forget that in the past this freedom was not recognized and that heresy caused horror among benevolent people, who undoubtedly constituted the vast majority even in the countries most infected with heresy. ”

Here is the opinion of the French historian and anthropologist Christian Duverger:

“Ferdinand and Isabella were challenged: they had to unite the country, fragmented by the contradictory course of history and medieval political organization. Isabella made a simple decision: religion will become the cement of Spain’s unity. ”

Spanish historian Jean Seville on the persecution of Jews in Spain writes:

“Torquemada is not a product of Catholicism: it is the fruit of national history ... The expulsion of the Jews - no matter how shocking it may seem to us - did not come from racist logic: it was an act that aimed to complete the religious unification of Spain ... The Catholic kings acted like all European the rulers of that time, based on the principle: "One faith, one law, one king."

And here is his view of the “Muslim problem”:

“During the Reconquista, Muslims remained on Christian territory. There were 30 thousand in Aragon, 50 thousand in the kingdom of Valencia (it depended on the Aragon crown), 25 thousand in Castile. In 1492, the fall of Granada increased to 200 thousand the number of Moors who were under the jurisdiction of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand ... in order to achieve the spiritual unity of Spain, with the support of the Church, the Catholic kings pursued a conversion policy ... As it failed with the Jews, the policy of assimilation, through mass conversion to Christianity, failed with the Muslims. It is impossible to rape the mind: no one will renounce his culture and his faith under duress. This is a great lesson. However, judging only Christian Spain for this means making a big mistake. In that era, not a single Muslim country was tolerant of Christians in its territory. The situation is exactly the same in the XNUMXst century in a large number of Muslim countries. ”

True, in another place, Jean Sevilla admits that

“The Spanish Inquisition settled in Castile, a Catholic kingdom with a tradition of religious coexistence. Alfonso VII (1126–1157), king of Castile and Leon, was called the emperor of three religions ... Mudejar and Muslims who lived on Christian territory were free in their religion. The same was true for the Jews. ”

Indeed, back in the Code of Laws of Alfonso X it was said:

“Although Jews reject Christ, nevertheless, they should be endured in Christian states, so that everyone remembers that they come from a tribe who crucified Christ. Since Jews are only tolerant, they should be quiet, not publicly preach their faith and not try to convert anyone to Judaism. ”

Alfonso X of Castile (1221-1284)

And yet, according to Seville, Torquemada played rather a positive role in the history of the country: in particular, he notes his merits in the unification of Castile and Aragon, and the deliverance of the new state from excessive dependence on the Vatican.

The contemporary Russian philosopher-theologian Andrei Kuraev also opposes the "demonization" of the inquisitors, arguing that "no other court in history has passed so many acquittals."

The British historian Henry Cayman in his book The Spanish Inquisition (1997) reports that in only 1,9% of the 49 cases investigated by him, the accused was transferred to secular authorities for execution of the death sentence. In other cases, the defendants either received another punishment (fine, penance, obligation of pilgrimage), or were acquitted.

In the following articles we will see that even relatively “soft” punishments imposed by the tribunals of the Holy Inquisition should not be underestimated. Speaking about the sentences that they passed, the word "mercy" can be safely "put in quotation marks." In the meantime, back to the hero of our article.

Conversos, marranos and tornadidos

According to Fernando del Pulgar (secretary and “chronicler” Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon), Tommaso de Torquemada, who became the head of the Tribunal of the Holy Chancellery of the Inquisition in Spain and organized large-scale persecution of Jews and Moors, was himself a descendant of baptized Jews. This is not surprising, since at about the same time in Castile 4 bishops came from conversos families (“converts”), and 5 officials of the highest rank came from their midst in Aragon. The descendants of Castilian conversos were, for example, Chancellor Luis de Santanel, chief treasurer Gabriel Sanchez, author of the Chronicle of the Catholic Kings Diego de Valera, valet of Isabella Juan Cabrero and Fernando del Pulgar mentioned by us. Moreover, of Jewish origin was the venerable saint Teresa of Avila (assigned to the Teachers of the Church): it is known that her grandfather in 1485 (just at the time of the Grand Inquisitor Tommaso Torquemada) was accused of secret observance of Jewish rites, for which he was imposed penance.

Statue of St. Theresa of Avila, San Juan Capistrano Monastery, California

And in Aragon at that time the descendants of the “new Christians” were Felipe de Clemente, chief secretary of the high court, Luis González, royal secretary, Gabriel Sanchez, chief treasurer and Aragon's vice chancellor don Alfonso de la Cavalieria.

The nickname conversos in those days was neutral, unlike others that appeared in the middle of the XVI century (after the adoption of the law on blood purity - limpieza de sangre): marranos ("marranos") and tornadidos ("tornadidos").

Most likely the origin of the nickname marranos is from the old Spanish expression "dirty pigs". Other versions (from the Jewish "maran atha" - "Our Lord came" and from the Arabic word "forbidden") are less likely, since the word "marranas" was not used by Jews or Muslims, namely purebred Spaniards, and it carried a pronounced negative semantic load.

Moses Maimon. "Marranes (The Secret Seder in Spain during the Inquisition)", 1893. Sedah Passover is a ritual family meal held at the beginning of Passover (Jewish Passover)

And tornadidos are "shifters."

The baptism of Jews at the end of the fourteenth century (a century before the events described) was far from peaceful. In Seville in 1391, about 4 thousand people died during the Jewish pogroms, the rest were forced to be baptized, their synagogues were turned into churches. Similar events occurred then in Cordoba and other Spanish cities. In January 1412, even before the birth of Tommaso Torquemada, an “edict of intolerance” was adopted in Castile, which ordered Jews to live only in special neighborhoods surrounded by walls with only one gate. They were forbidden a number of professions, including medical and pharmaceutical business, credit operations. Could not be worn weapon, called "don", keep a Christian servant and trade with Christians. Moreover, they were forbidden to leave Castile. These measures dramatically increased the number of baptized Jews, but now this “conversion” has often been hypocritical. And therefore, in the future, the Edicts of Mercy were published, which indicated signs of people who secretly profess Judaism. For example, such:

“Observance of Saturday (by) cooking, on Fridays ... not eating pigs, hares, rabbits, strangled birds .., no eels, no other fish without scales, as provided by Jewish law ... Or those who celebrate the Unleavened Bread Festival ( Passover), starting with the use of lettuce, celery or other bitter herbs in those days. ”

The paradox was that, over time, for the descendants of baptized Jews who did not remember the precepts of their religion, the Edicts of Mercy began to serve as a kind of guide to action - an indicator of what needs to be done (or not done) in order to remain a Jew.

And it was proposed to reveal secret Muslims by observing how often a person washes his face, hands and feet.

But among the descendants of conversos, there were many who surpassed purebred Castilians in religious zeal and fanaticism.

The next article will talk about the identity of Tommaso Torquemada and his path to the post of Grand Inquisitor.

Comments

[Far B]

The bonfires of the Inquisition were then burning throughout Europe, so the point was not in Torquemada, but in the customs and mores of the time, in the very institution of the Holy Inquisition. The French burned their Joan of Arc (later canonized), the Hans "Hammer of the Witches" sprinkled it (one of the authors was later also condemned by the court of the Holy Inquisition, LOL). No, it's not about Torquemada.
But the coolest invention of Catholics is still indulgence, I understand)))

[Phil77]

Repentance for denyuzhku? Yes, it is strong! But you paid!

[Bar1]

Beautiful lines, but actually “iron and blood”, alas, very often prove to be stronger than love

Here are a few excerpts from the laws [1] of the “blessed” Russian Empire, which “helped” the common people to constantly “improve” spiritually.

“For“ non-existence in a confession ”, for the first time, charge the ruble for the first time for the non-residents and townspeople, 2 rubles for the second time, 3 rubles for the third time .; from peasants - 5, 10 and 15 kopecks, respectively. ”

“For concealment of the“ non-marketers ”of the priest, punish 5 rubles for the first case, then 10 and 15, and for the fourth time - deprivation of authority and sent to hard labor”

See the section on Crimes Against Faith.

Article 182. Blasphemy in the Church - exile and hard labor up to 20 years, corporal punishment, stigma; in another public place - exile and hard labor up to 8 years, corporal punishment, stigma. Article 183. Non-public blasphemy - exile to Siberia and corporal punishment.

But what threatened those who risked criticizing Christianity:

Article 186. Blasphemy, vilification, censure, criticism of Christianity without intent - imprisonment in a house of up to 2 years, imprisonment up to 2 years.

Article 187. Printed and written criticism of Christianity - reference to Siberia, corporal punishment.

Article 188. Mockery of Christianity, intentionally - the conclusion of the year, unintentionally - up to 3 months.

Article 189. Production, distribution of articles of faith in obscene form - intent - punishment in accordance with Art. 183; without intent - imprisonment up to 6 months or arrest up to 3 weeks.

Article 190. Distraction from the faith: non-violent - exile up to 10 years, corporal punishment, stigmatization; violent - reference up to 15 years, corporal punishment, stigmatization.

Article 191. Departure from faith - deprivation of rights for the time of deviation from faith.

Article 192. If one of the parents of a non-Christian faith brings up children not in the Orthodox faith - divorce, exile to Siberia.

Article 195. Seduction from Orthodoxy to another religion - exile, corporal punishment, correctional labor up to 2 years. Under forced coercion - exile to Siberia, corporal punishment.

Article 196. Apostasy - a ban on contact with children, until returning to faith.

https://www.kramola.info/vesti/religija/nasazhdenie-pravoslaviya-v-carskoy-rossii
https://work-way.com/blog/2015/01/06/pravda-o-pravoslavnom-narode/
that there Spain this obscurantism all happened in the 20th century in Russia.

[VLR]

That is why, after the revolution in Russia, thousands of churches were destroyed: not by the Bolsheviks, and not by order of the Bolsheviks, spontaneously. None other than A. Blok wrote about this in his article "Intelligentsia and Revolution" (January 9, 1918):
"Why are they making holes in the ancient cathedral? - Because for a hundred years here an overweight priest, hiccupping, took bribes and sold vodka. Why do they shit in gentlemanly estates?" ".
And also in the poem "12":
Do you remember how it used to be, the belly went forward, and the belly shone with a cross at the people? "

[bober1982]

Quote: VlR

None other than A. Blok wrote about this in the article "Intelligentsia and Revolution" (January 9, 1918):

All the revolutionary euphoria of A. Blok quickly passed when his ancestral estate was burned by peasants, and he himself had to sit in the Cheka’s cell
He became crazy, and indeed he was.

[sergo1914]

Quote: Bar1

Beautiful lines, but actually “iron and blood”, alas, very often prove to be stronger than love

Here are a few excerpts from the laws [1] of the “blessed” Russian Empire, which “helped” the common people to constantly “improve” spiritually.

“For“ non-existence in a confession ”, for the first time, charge the ruble for the first time for the non-residents and townspeople, 2 rubles for the second time, 3 rubles for the third time .; from peasants - 5, 10 and 15 kopecks, respectively. ”

“For concealment of the“ non-marketers ”of the priest, punish 5 rubles for the first case, then 10 and 15, and for the fourth time - deprivation of authority and sent to hard labor”

See the section on Crimes Against Faith.

Article 182. Blasphemy in the Church - exile and hard labor up to 20 years, corporal punishment, stigma; in another public place - exile and hard labor up to 8 years, corporal punishment, stigma. Article 183. Non-public blasphemy - exile to Siberia and corporal punishment.

But what threatened those who risked criticizing Christianity:

Article 186. Blasphemy, vilification, censure, criticism of Christianity without intent - imprisonment in a house of up to 2 years, imprisonment up to 2 years.

Article 187. Printed and written criticism of Christianity - reference to Siberia, corporal punishment.

Article 188. Mockery of Christianity, intentionally - the conclusion of the year, unintentionally - up to 3 months.

Article 189. Production, distribution of articles of faith in obscene form - intent - punishment in accordance with Art. 183; without intent - imprisonment up to 6 months or arrest up to 3 weeks.

Article 190. Distraction from the faith: non-violent - exile up to 10 years, corporal punishment, stigmatization; violent - reference up to 15 years, corporal punishment, stigmatization.

Article 191. Departure from faith - deprivation of rights for the time of deviation from faith.

Article 192. If one of the parents of a non-Christian faith brings up children not in the Orthodox faith - divorce, exile to Siberia.

Article 195. Seduction from Orthodoxy to another religion - exile, corporal punishment, correctional labor up to 2 years. Under forced coercion - exile to Siberia, corporal punishment.

Article 196. Apostasy - a ban on contact with children, until returning to faith.

https://www.kramola.info/vesti/religija/nasazhdenie-pravoslaviya-v-carskoy-rossii
https://work-way.com/blog/2015/01/06/pravda-o-pravoslavnom-narode/
that there Spain this obscurantism all happened in the 20th century in Russia.

Phew ... At first I decided that you are quoting a draft of the new Vovkina Constitution. And then I reached the link. You can’t scare people like that.

[zenion]

If you recall, you need to read the gospel. John the Baptist, when he baptized people in the Jordan, also baptized Jesus in him, so he said - I baptize you with water, and the one who comes after me will baptize you with a sword and fire.

[Basil50]

Far
You are not quite right. All Christians had indulgences. Today in RUSSIA it is easy to receive the remission of all sins. Any pop will do this miracle. Especially on the * zone * everything, without exception * innocently ... *, but somehow pop has already forgiven all sins. What the * Catholic * what * the Greek Catholic Orthodox * Church * forgiveness of sins ONLY after receiving payment.
By the way, in the RUSSIAN EMPIRE the inquisition was canceled only in 1826, but they increased the monastery prisons, in which the official post * executor * existed quite officially, so in the spirit of education they renamed the kata executioner.
And his * torquemada * in RUSSIA also existed, they already made him a saint and they pray to him -Vygotsky ........

[Same lech]

Today in RUSSIA it is easy to receive the remission of all sins.

Soon it will be legalized in our country ... all ex-presidents will receive forgiveness from their sins at the legislative level indulgence is a beautiful and pleasant word for sinners.

[Phil77]

Money question? But he spoiled not only the church! But why are we talking and arguing about it? Yes, because it should, no! MUST be above this question!

[Molot1979]

You are not a good person, because you are lying. Personally, I was at a confession last Friday and didn’t pay a penny for it. So your enemies are for those who were in church only on excursions

[saigon]

Just as a replica, the concept of human rights which is so fond of shaking democracies of all spills, was developed precisely by the Inquisition.

[Phil77]

And what about the fact that confirms this? Intuition seems to be whispering the opposite.

[saigon]

I caught my eye when reading about a country such as Paraguay, honestly I do not remember the name of the book right there and I came across such a fact. The position of the Inquisition was very strong in Paraguay and it was there that the basic concepts of Human Rights were developed.
Actually I drew attention to this fact in the mainstream of reading for a simple reason - the Catholic Church retained equal rights for Latin Indians (baptized) with Europeans, unlike North America, where the Indians were cutely denied all rights under the law

[Phil77]

My friend, the first mention of the creation of a special court called * the Inquisition * dates back to 1215. Pope Inocentius3. State of Paraguay ????

[3x3zsave]

My compliments, Sergey! Despite the fact that the word eventually became a household word and referring to a completely different phenomenon, the concept of "inqvisito", from the moment of its appearance and for 250 years, was related to jurisprudence and denoted a method of conducting an inquiry.

[Catfish]

"And to you, Cristobal Hozievich ..." Hello, Anton, this is without hints, just at the word "inquisition" I immediately remembered the famous "clergyman".

[3x3zsave]

Damn it! And "he promised that he would not" bite "with his tooth!

[Catfish]

So after all, about Tanks with mulattos, I didn’t say a word.

[3x3zsave]

Here and further "nishkni" !!! And then my "creative" is lost in vain ...

[Catfish]

Agreed Well, something like this...

[3x3zsave]

What is it? A track from "Armata"? No, guys, you bring this crap to Trump. Only a commemorative sign on Mars will satisfy me !!!

[Alf]

Quote: Phil77

And what about the fact that confirms this? Intuition seems to be whispering the opposite.

As far as I know, the formula "the accused is not considered guilty until proven guilty" was developed by the Inquisition.

[3x3zsave]

That's right!

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Alas, many people do not understand what indulgence is, believing that it is absolution for money ...

[Basil50]

Andrew
Why don’t we understand? If for simple reasons, this is not only the forgiveness of already committed sins, but also the remission of FUTURE sins.
It is surprising that none of the churchmen noted divine messages other than revelations on Mount Sinai. There are only ten points. But how many discussions of their own god and their own interpretations of such a laconic deity.
By the way, who are these saints, who determines how and how?
Imagine if there is a god, then other people's ideas are simply imposed on him and, in addition, they also impose saints. How can this be explained apart from arrogance?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Vasily50

Why don’t we understand? If for simple reasons, this is not only the forgiveness of already committed sins, but also the remission of FUTURE sins.

I say - you don't understand :))) Let's start with the fact that indulgence is an absolution before God of a temporary punishment for sins, the guilt for which has already been blotted out. That is, in order to receive complete forgiveness for sin, a Christian had to confess, take communion, perform certain actions (prayers, ministry of mercy, testimony of faith) and not have a predisposition to perfect sin. In other words, an indulgence could be issued only in the presence of repentance, and expressed not in the words "I repented", but in deeds, that is, pilgrimage, fasting, or something else. So the purchase of an indulgence could replace some (or all, but this was already considered an abuse) of the above cases.
And you need to understand that indulgence is a way of removing only temporary punishment for sins. Having discovered the catechism of the Catholic Church, we read

Serious sin deprives us of fellowship with God, and thereby closes access to eternal life; its deprivation is called "eternal punishment for sin." On the other hand, any sin, even minor, leads to an unordered attachment to creatures, and this attachment must be cleansed either on earth or after death, in a state called Purgatory. This cleansing exempts from what is called a “temporary punishment” for sin.

That is, strictly speaking, indulgence is a way of reckoning for a person’s minor sins in which he repented. But what you write about FUTURE sins characterizes you, alas, as a person who does not understand the fundamentals of the Catholic religion, and indeed - Christianity. Atone for future sin in advance is only one way - do not commit it :)))))
Of course, indulgences were a mistake, because the people of those years were not subtle, and masses of abuses began to arise, and they were abandoned in the end. But, generally speaking, the idea itself was not some kind of asocial

[Basil50]

Very original. A sinner made a mess of people and forgives him, IN THE BEHALF OF GOD, some not very righteous, but appointed by himself, like a representative of God. At the same time, he will definitely take the money into his pocket. Or will God send it to the card?
Amazing are these .......................... HERE, ON THE EARTH, at least something is being made on behalf of God.
Wherein:
God Almighty
is all-knowing god
God forgiving
and so on and so forth.
In your opinion, it turns out that God can be chosen as in the store according to the mood or according to need ................................... ... Well, aren’t you ashamed to be so dismissive of your own GOD? AND?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Vasily50

Very original. The sinner has spoken to people and forgives him FROM THE NAME OF GOD some not very righteous, but appointed by himself, it seems, as a representative of God.

Dmitry, it’s quite difficult for me to understand your bitterness regarding Christianity. However, to love or hate is your right, but it would be nice to still be impartial. Even a bit.
If a person shit on people, then the court will determine the measure of his punishment. Secular court, not ecclesiastical. Forgiveness of sins by the church does not mean amnesty in a secular court, you did not know that? :)))) The church, in fact, had to deal with the salvation of souls, that is, act as an intermediary between man and God, and not at all replace public institutions of justice. In fact, anything happened, of course, but no power is perfect. And here the "shoals" of church power do not stand out too much from the "shoals" of worldly rulers. In any case, the first and second world wars, if anything, were not unleashed by the church.

Quote: Vasily50

At the same time, he will definitely take the money in his pocket.

Not necessarily, although of course they could in their own.

Quote: Vasily50

These are amazing .......................... HERE, ON THE EARTH at least something is mugged on behalf of God.

It is sad that you have never listened to this "sound" and, not knowing what the church is talking about, you desperately fantasize for it.

Quote: Vasily50

In your opinion, it turns out that God can be chosen as in the store according to the mood or according to need

Here, for example, where does this absolutely ridiculous conclusion come from? Can you somehow comment on what you said?
Take the same indulgence. Man has committed some small sin. He can atone for him if he doesn’t sin like that in the future and repents, and repentance will be shown to him in practice - for example, fasting, or there several times to read a prayer or some other action that will require some effort from a person. Efforts for which a person will not receive anything material - no one will pay him money for this. But he may not do this, but part with some amount of money. What is money for a person? A measure of his work, a reward for him. That is, a person worked, put in efforts, and received money for it.
Well, so how much difference does a person read 100 times our Father, or part with a certain amount of money? And in that and in another case, he will do some work, make some efforts and not receive material wealth in return. That is, he consciously sacrifices to God some part of his time and efforts - in both cases.
Of course, all this is good only in theory, but in practice I didn't want to work. If only because the income is different for everyone, and for someone rich, such a "sacrifice" cost practically nothing. But basically, I repeat, there was nothing immoral in the idea of ​​indulgence.

[3x3zsave]

Bravo, Andrey! There is one more point about which denunciators of the institution of indulgences are ignorant. What is an indulgence? This is, in fact, a "crisis of overproduction".

[Olgovich]

Beautiful lines, but actually “iron and blood”, alas, very often prove to be stronger than love.

and where are those empires. held together by "iron and blood (Macedonian, Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, etc.)?"
A-no them ....

"But we'll try with love.... "

[Phil77]

Quote: Olgovich

and where are those empires. fastened by "iron and blood (Macedonian, Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, etc.)?"
A-no them ....

What a you, Andrey! Where, where ?? In history! That's where. Good morning to you!

[VLR]

And in our time there are empires created by "iron and blood". Germany, which, having suffered 2 terrible defeats, in spite of everything, has united and dominates the European Union. Although between the Bavarians and the Hessians (for example) the difference is much more significant than between the Russians and Belarusians. USA. Great Britain, which remains an empire - its monarchs are officially the heads of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, and many more states, and British governors general are not wedding generals at all. In foreign policy, these countries are not entirely independent. China (in fact, a multinational state), which went through the union of "iron and blood" many times, the last - after the 2nd World War.

[Olgovich]

Quote: VlR

And in our time there are empires created by "iron and blood". Germany, which, having suffered 2 terrible defeats, in spite of everything, united

Little is left of that Germany. .
And in 1990, it was not united by iron.

Quote: VlR

Great Britain, which remains an empire

The ceremony of transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong, China held in 1997 и was the completion of the collapse of the British Empire

[Phil77]

Andrei! That Germany, about which we argue, have lost little. Industry? It’s in place. / God forbid us! / Population? Yes, everything is like everyone else! Finances? See point one. Such a normal country. European.

[fk7777777]

The Germans do not control anything, not even "their" car industry ... They have nothing to lose))) ...

[Same lech]

And where are those empires held together by love?

[Phil77]

Alexey !!!! They are not and never will be! There are only many, och.many empires created between a man and a woman. You see! Alas! I contradict myself!

[Same lech]

Mdaa love is a great power ... who knows it fully will never forget what it is ... but it is a purely human quality and the mystery of the human soul ... it is impossible to extend it to states and empires.

[Phil77]

In fact, no one is able to destroy these mini-empires; only they themselves!

[fk7777777]

Yes, and then who do you think is a humpback, ebn, if not agents of influence, then probably ... and this is constantly being traced, the same Gustav ruined the squid union, after which the Swedes began to wet everyone around, such a peculiar Swedish Reich (raidgag) , nothing later was repeated in your opinion ...?

[Phil77]

So let's try to * clarify that at this moment, and in this comment we talked / wrote / about love between a man and a woman!

[ANB]

And German?

[Alf]

And where are these

Quote: Olgovich

"But we'll try with love ...."

?

[Phil77]

Good morning to the venerable meeting! Happy holiday to you! I read it, I read the article. With enormous interest, I admit. I knew some facts before ... But still it’s written archinterestingly! I look forward to continuing ....

[VLR]

Good morning, it will be even more interesting. In the second article - as an ordinary abbot of a small Dominican monastery, not yet an inquisitor, against the will of the king, he married Princess Isabella to Ferdinand and made them "Catholic kings".

[Phil77]

But there’s a good novel about Howard Fast about him? Yes, yes! Good morning Valery! I like it when the author accompanies his article!

[fk7777777]

Here is our man, there is something for Ilyich to respect ...

[Korsar4]

Interesting topic. A person whose name has become a symbol in different centuries, countries and situations deserves close attention.

And what an opportunity to argue. Apparently, the debate on this page will flare up.

Bonfires attract people.

[Phil77]

No! Absolutely not! Not bonfires, but personalities !!!

[Korsar4]

And just bonfires attract.

And the people at the stake - especially.
For example: “To the fire of the Huguenots!”.

You can, of course, recall Dostoevsky.
To say that the world is getting softer.

Something is probably transforming. For such examples:

“Act strictly according to the law -
That is, act on the sly ”(c).

[Phil77]

Oppa! By the laws? Al by the concepts? But plus fiercely !!!!

[Korsar4]

And how often is it different?

And who is able to clearly see the causes and effects, even in the situation in which you understand?

[Phil77]

In life? On earth, what do we trample on? Yes categorically, yes !!!! The killer of a young girl and the rapist. Who is he? By law, maybe he * the person committed the act in a state of affect *. By the notions? Fucker undeserving right to life! No?

[Korsar4]

Karamazov questions.

Here is an explicit example.
But this does not always happen.

It is no coincidence that: "Do not judge, but you will not be judged."

I repeat - the most difficult question. You can go into many examples.
And to summarize is very difficult.

[Phil77]

Exactly here. And in this matter, I agree. It’s not for us to decide. But the question arises: to whom? To the Lord? He is high. So who replaces him on the earth? Sometimes he is sinful. Question: who should decide?

[Korsar4]

The Creator did not leave substitutes on the earth.

[Phil77]

What he didn’t leave is his problem. But it’s up to us. I’ll repeat it by concepts. It’s somehow more acceptable to our life.

[Korsar4]

Each pack has its own concepts. And they have a tendency to change. Perhaps, what is good in life in terms of concepts is recognition of strangers from another community.

This is even in the soft version of schoolchildren manifests itself.

[Phil77]

Oh, Sergey !!!! He / if he was? / Only left problems, and Torquemada is not extreme ?!

[Korsar4]

In some theology, we suddenly crawled into. And here a quagmire - that is on the right, that on the left. And hardly anyone will convincingly persuade.

[Phil77]

Sergey! The concept of flocking is relative. So who are we today? I have no answer. About * I will understand: there is not the slightest desire to join ultrapatriots * Putin is ours all * ???? And to * bulk * I do not relate myself! Who I? Probably just a person who wants to feel like a citizen of his country! Oh, Valery !!!! Well, you asked a topic ?!

[Korsar4]

Political orientation is not like a flock.

A class of schoolchildren, a group of students, a sports team are closer to her.
With all possible reservations, of course.

[sabakina]

Quote: Korsar4

The Creator did not leave substitutes on the earth.

Yes, how to say ... Walks here ... With a scythe .....

[Korsar4]

This is more from Pratchett.

[Catfish]

Didn't this "lady" mean?

[Phil77]

What are bonfires?
Who are they for?
for whom?
They probably
for the one who burns them !!!!
For those they are, for those ....

[Korsar4]

And for those who are watching.

It is not by chance that everything is repeated in different countries and eras.

And there are regular hunweibins.

[Phil77]

The verse he wrote.

[Korsar4]

What verse?

[Phil77]

About the bonfires!

[Phil77]

So a question of questions !!!! Who are you * Mr. Torquemada ???? *. Who will answer?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

Who are you * Mr. Torquemada ???? *. Who will answer?

He’s a complete moron. Was it forbidden to hang curtains with him?

[Phil77]

Volodya! Hello! I would not call him a moron! Excuse me !!!!!

[Phil77]

And what, friend, is it more interesting here in history?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

more interesting in history?

Duc to me on the drum. Moreover, the drum is cracking at the seams. And we had our own inquisition. Taras Remember the potato.

[Phil77]

Who about what?!? Well, it was like that, and what ?? I am on a global scale !!!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

I am on a global scale !!!

And on a global scale, there were decrees of Princess Sophia, where she ordered people to be burned alive.

[Phil77]

There are no such royal decrees, do not lie!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

There are no such royal decrees, do not lie!

some schismatics of the holy church oppose and lay blasphemy, and they don’t go to church for church singing and spiritual fathers for confession, and they don’t take holy mysteries, and they don’t let the priests and shrines in their homes, and among the obscene Christians in their own words, they are tempting and rebellion, and they are stubborn in that theft: they will torture those thieves, from whom they have been taught this, and for how long, and who they will speak to and those slanderous people to interrogate and confront each other, and torture with confrontation; and who learn from torture to stand stubbornly, but won’t bring the subjugation of the holy church, and if you don’t submit to such a heresy, three times at the execution, they will submit, burn in a log house and scatter ashes.

[Phil77]

What year of execution?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

What year of execution?

17th century, however. And what is wrong?

[Phil77]

There's no such thing!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

There's no such thing!

Ah ... ah ... ah .... there is no seventeenth century ??? No, I really need to comprehend this.

[fk7777777]

Dregs ... Where is the conclusion of the main article, what is it about? ... It’s just that he was, he lived, a Japanese, almost a samurai wanted to become a ninja, they didn’t go to China, they didn’t give a residence permit in Moscow, there was no schnapps, what should I do? went to the Spaniards ...

[karabass]

Savages! barbarians! Just stupid people!
I would eat pork and eel in their place for the glory of any religion, the Great Genghis Khan commanded that you can pray to any gods, if only they would help. And if these bastards take off from work (helping you), then it is allowed not to believe any gods! Here! wild Mongol, but was much more educated and smarter than any!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: karabass

wild Mongol, but was much more educated and smarter than any!

And why is he wild then?

[Phil77]

Yes, Volodya, you are right about the savagery and incongruity of Mongolia!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Phil77

Yes, Volodya, you are right about the savagery and incongruity of Mongolia!

Nothing like that. It is the Mongol khans who issued a warrant for reign, and not us at all. It's a shame, yes, but you won’t erase words from a song.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

The wild Mongol was much more pragmatic !!! Only after three-quarters of a century the descendants of the Mongols slaughtered each other for the glory of Islam! So religion as an instrument of power and power as an instrument of religion did not pass the great pragmatists of the Mongols!
Interesting is the position of a number of Authors, who blame their wives and concubines for refusing the tolerance of the ruling elite. It was they who, participating in the upbringing of children, planted a seed of faith in them. And the third generation of the Tatar-Mongols under the Khan Uzbek raised the banner of Islam!

[Kolin]

My friends and I will gather
At a huge bonfire.
It's a flame like the sun
Will warm us until the morning.
All worries, all problems
Fly away with ashes up ...
Oh how great we all
Gathered here today! (c) Anthem of the Inquisitors.

[Alf]

Quote: Kolin

My friends and I will gather
At a huge bonfire.
It's a flame like the sun
Will warm us until the morning.
All worries, all problems
Fly away with ashes up ...
Oh how great we all
Gathered here today! (c) Anthem of the Inquisitors.

Well, what kind of people, nothing sacred, everyone will vulgar!
Hear Torquemada-wet woods would put.

[Trilobite Master]

Fear of the unknown is peculiar to man. It would be strange if someone did not want to use this fear for personal gain. The church, any, is a commercial enterprise, generating income by exploiting this fear itself. As in any business, there is competition in religion. Competitors are crushed in order not to share. All religious wars, reformation, inquisition and other abominations created by the name of God are nothing more than a battle for the loot, if you look at the very root of these processes.
And by the way, I fully admit that Torquemada looked so deeply, that is, he quite consciously fought precisely for the loot, and not for anything else.
All the higher church hierarchs at all times clearly realized the ultimate goal of their efforts, why not Torquemade to stand in this line, without exaggeration, the outstanding people of his time?

[Korsar4]

Luther with Calvin, probably in this row.

And sincere ascetics, like Rev. Sergius of Radonezh, do you think they also participated in the battle for resources?

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Korsar4

Rev. Sergius of Radonezh,

Who knows? He was far from being as simple as it seems to some, and he did not limit himself to prayers in his life, actively intervening, including in political activities. It is difficult to say what exactly was in his head, but objectively he actively acted in the interests of the Orthodox Church - he encouraged monastery building, trained preachers for the spread of Orthodoxy, that is, he did everything possible to strengthen the authority and expand the spheres of influence of the church. I can well admit that he was personally disinterested (or maybe not), but by his actions he "put" a lot into the church's piggy bank, so objectively - yes, he actively participated in the struggle for material wealth.

[Korsar4]

So we come to the debate about non-possessiveness between the Nile of Sora and Joseph Volotsky. In the history of the Church, then both are recognized as saints. But the point of view of Joseph Volotsky won in essence.

[Trilobite Master]

"Josephites" and "non-possessors"? I think this dispute is really just a dispute about the design of the sign over the entrance to the company's headquarters, nothing more.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Trilobite Master

"Josephites" and "non-possessors"? I think this dispute is really just a dispute about the design of the sign over the entrance to the company's headquarters, nothing more.

Hats off Michael, subtly noticed !!!

[BAI]

Many quite seriously believed that the church and teachings of Christ were in serious danger and needed protection.

Many people think so seriously even now. One so-called law "On the protection of the feelings of believers" is worth it.

[Alf]

Quote: BAI

One so-called law "On the protection of the feelings of believers" is worth it.

And when will the law "On the Protection of the Feelings of the Disbelievers" appear? In the light of the behavior of the current saints, this law just asks.

[Fishery]

Moors and Jews greatly enriched the culture of Spain, it is a pity that understanding came later.

[Operator]

The Inquisition was a reaction to the Muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula (lasting from 100 to 750 years for various regions of Spain). Half of the peninsula was liberated from occupation 400 years after the invasion of Arabs from North Africa.

All this time, a mixed population lived on the peninsula - local Christians (the vast majority) and immigrant Muslims (Arabs and Berbers) and Jews (descendants of Israelis who were deported to Africa by the Romans as a result of the Judean Wars).

As conquering their territories, Christians forced the invaders to either change their faith or move to the territory that was not yet conquered by the Iberian Peninsula. For some reason, the invaders adopted Christianity, but at the same time continued to secretly perform the religious rites of their former faith. This was mainly done by Jews who did not want to leave for North Africa.

In connection with the mass sabotage by Jews of the laws of the Kingdom of Spain on the prohibition of the practice of Judaism, a religious organization, the Inquisition, was created in the 15th century, the activity of which was aimed at verifying compliance with the laws, as a result of which all those who did not accept Christianity were deported from Spain, and all those who violated Christian canons were punished .

At the same time, it must be emphasized that for Jews and Muslims a free choice was given - emigration or the adoption of Christianity. The third option (punishment for apostasy) was also known to everyone, so the behavior of Jewish apostates during the Inquisition does not lend itself to a logical explanation.

[iouris]

Quote: Operator

The Inquisition was a reaction to the Muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula

The word "occupation" does not apply at all to that historical era. Otherwise, the reconquista is also an "occupation". (Our enemies are stupid. They think that we are the enemies. In fact, they are the enemies.).

[Operator]

Arabs, Berbers and Jews in the total population of the Iberian Peninsula constituted an overwhelming minority (no more than 5%) and behaved like classical invaders / parasites - they taxed the local Christian population without actively trying to assimilate it in linguistic and religious terms.

[Looking for]

And why there is no opus on the theme of the influence of moonlight on the growth of telegraph poles. I think it would be a topical topic for today.

[Alf]

Quote: Seeker

And why there is no opus on the theme of the influence of moonlight on the growth of telegraph poles. I think it would be a topical topic for today.

Write. What is the problem ?

[iouris]

It’s hard to understand how it really was: CNN and fake news have always existed. Wasn't Torkevamada a Jew and a "crypto-Jew" who played a very subtle game of forming from the Jewish diaspora what it eventually became? The assertion that the "baptized Jews" did not know the tenets of Judaism needs clarification. Throughout the ages there have been and are Jewish dissidents, but the "adoption of Christianity" most often meant the automatic transition of a Jew "to an illegal position." The children of such "Christians" were initiated into the secret only after reaching the age at which the child could keep his mouth shut. Such "Christians" could make dizzying careers even in the Vatican, and not only at the courts of other sovereigns, and, by the way, could use the levers of the state to persecute Jewish dissidents and "strengthen the ranks of the organization." From the outside it looked as if "the goyim are persecuting a Jew."
But in any case, in the foreground of history, the figure of Ivan the Terrible - "the leader of the Muscovite horde" (but what about?) Appears as a model of villainy and cruelty. Even Medinsky's titanic efforts cannot change this situation.