Military Review

Incredible but obvious

105
Strange news They come from a television screen, one more unexpected than the other, you don’t believe your ears! Then Putin conferred the rank of Colonel-General Shamanov, bypassing the current defense minister, without his introduction, then they spoke again, no longer about disbanding, but reforming the Tula airborne slogan, about transferring it from a regimental to a brigade basis. That Rogozin requires a report from the State Property - where the production areas of the defense corporations "Almaz-Antey", Tupolev, Yakovlev, Mikoyan, or the Prime Minister announces the sale of state-owned blocks of shares of defense enterprises.

Incredible but obvious


Putin has just brought billions to the defense industry to support his pants, and here you are, the state sells 25% of its shares! How to understand this? Is there a contradiction? Or will it be with us now: the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing? Life consists of contradictions, but not to the same extent!

Personally, I am in favor of Shamanov going not only to colonel generals, but also to ministers of defense. For us, the Soviet, he, judging by the Ulyanovsk governorship, is a stranger, but military affairs are fairly well-known and are unlikely to allow infringement of the interests of the country's defense.

It would be good if Rogozin could return the defense industry stolen from her under the financial "gun", or even just under the gun, attached to the temple of the "red" directors. It would be good, but hard to believe. It is impossible to collect with one hand, and with the other - to scatter stones!

And is it really not clear that the billions that the president brought to Tagil's “defense industry”, in the blink of an eye, will disperse into private traders, as soon as the state gives up its stake, its priority?

Some of the officers, Internet users, exclaimed in their hearts - how many more shell stores should explode and burn for the president to remove Serdyukov? And as if in response to this exclamation, just under the “holiday” of 12 June, like fireworks, explosions shot up in the Orenburg region in a warehouse where 12 thousands of tons of ammunition were stored. Twelve artillery shells, each with 1000 tons of shells!

But it is unlikely that the officer indignation caused the Orenburg “festive salute” - rather, Rogozin’s statement about the intention to ban the disposal of ammunition to the Ministry of Defense and transfer it to defense enterprises. These are the billions that will be gone from the control of managers who have dug in under Serdyukov's wing!

Messages related to the storage and disposal of ammunition - the strangest! They are increasingly reminiscent of a summary of the fighting. The more outraged by the increasing frequency of explosions and fires, the more often they are. Assumptions that state of emergency are man-made, that cover elementary theft, in the eyes turn into confidence.

As soon as they did not explain to the public, they dropped the box, smoked in the warehouse! Is there a suicide attendant? It seems that only they did not remember about the lightning - it is clear that they cherish for transcendent catastrophe. One of the most recent reports is striking with naivety or embarrassment: a conscript soldier drove a car loaded with anti-tank anti-tank grenades, the engine caught fire, and ... the driver drove into the ditch! On the Internet, ask why not use a fire extinguisher? Or was there no fire extinguisher? You have to drive the Minister of Defense, who has a mess in warehouses and landfills, making the army dangerous for its own citizens. Worse to discredit the military can not imagine!

I would like to believe that something is changing, but in fact: is anything changing at all? The course towards the destruction of the Armed Forces remains unchanged. On the fronts of the Great Patriotic War suffered smaller losses. Will the number of draft evaders not soon exceed the number of those called up?

It is easy to assign the rank of colonel-general to a paratrooper respected in the army, it is even easier to complain about the predecessors for plundering the defense industry, and then what? We are waiting for real steps, not hints. Hints fed up! Is it time to actually take up the defense?

Further to fall there is no place - ahead oblivion and disgrace! Does the president suit the role of Herostratus or Nero, who burned his Rome? One way or another, he was established at the helm of the board, and isn't it time to think about what he will leave behind? Others, like the Egyptian Mubarak, end up very sad.

Someone hopes that V.V. can not resist until the end of the period. Not inclined to illusions, I don’t mind turning to his common sense: why not meet the “despicable” electorate? Why not secure a calm old age and burial in his native land? In former times, many considered this to be a sufficient payment for political transformation.

Shulgin, Slaschev, Alexey Tolstoy, Kuprin - none of them were ashamed to fall at the feet of the Motherland. Today it is all the more simple because we are not talking about changing color, from white to becoming red, from a democrat - a communist, it suffices to remain a statesman.

Regrettably, the Russian "democrats" are successively traitors and agents of influence. Not to find among them a single respected person. But it is never too late to draw conclusions from this, if you remember about your native land!

I, like that Roman senator, who finished each of his speeches with the words: “I also want to say that Carthage must be destroyed!” Do not close your eyes: there is a war, principally Punic, worse than the Cold. And I will not tire of repeating: Serdyukov must leave the post of Minister of Defense, taking with him all his minions, financiers and managers, boys and girls to run errands.

Otherwise, it would be appropriate to repeat, the hegemon must be defeated, but first Serdyukov must be removed. When it defense turns into a fiction!

Of course, it is not Serdyukov who is the root cause, he does what he is ordered, and the further he goes, the more he resembles a whipping boy. But is it not a litmus test, isn’t the society and the officer corps checked for lice? Tolerate him for the sixth year!

Our enemies love to conduct such checks. One of the last is the statement of A. Koch on the Internet about Russian peasants, addressed to Russian women. Is he safe, alive and healthy, not afraid of anything? Well, therefore, the test went "with a bang!" Chechens are surprised Russian patience. Or maybe they are not surprised: in two wars they began to come in! Marvels are distant, who still remember the Soviet Union, proud and impregnable.

I do not call for extreme measures, but is it not appropriate to recall how the Islamic world reacted to a caricature in a Scandinavian newspaper that insulted the religious feelings of Muslims? If the Kochs get away with offensive remarks against the Russians, they will not respect us! Or, no longer respected?

"Democratic" Russia bows to all who will have, from enlarged Balts, Poles and Georgians to the outsider of NATO, Norway. As if the Japanese did not give the Kurils, the Germans - Kaliningrad. And all this - with our tacit consent, all - after the checks for lice, one of which Serdyukov, the other - Koch. And on the way - a lot of things unbearable, incredible, but obvious!

It would seem, what do I care about the Tula Airborne Troops, along with other famous and such “feats”, which is better not to remember? In 1991, a paratrooper headed by Cygnus guarded Yeltsin in the White House, and in 1993 she participated in the siege of the Supreme Soviet. From her ranks came two unkind memories of the general, Grachev and Lebed.

But on the other hand, this is the most combat-ready division in the Russian army, and 20 years have passed since then, and none of the participants in the events in the division remain. Who will remember the old - that eye out? But who forgets, to that - two! We are waiting from the Tula paratroopers to serve the people, not temporary workers. Has their stay in power been delayed? And what good paratroopers received from them?

There is a conviction in society that the authorities are afraid of the army, afraid of the appearance of fighting recalcitrant generals in its ranks. It is not for nothing that Serdyukov out of ten deputies has only two military men, an obedient chief of the General Staff, Makarov, and a hard worker, Bulgakov, who is responsible for the material and technical supply, but especially for recycling. weapons and ammunition. All the rest are civilians, financiers and managers - not an army, but a corporation for cutting state money!

Should a war, how will she fight? Stalin instead sent himself to the fronts of Zhukov, Vasilevsky. Who will Putin send? Serdyukov and his deputies? Is that why he turned his face to Shamanov, producing him in colonel generals? But still not the ministers of defense!

Is it not because apart from him there are no personalities among the generals? Some do not, and those - far away! Rokhlin, Troshev, Pulikovsky, Kazantsev, Baluevsky - where are they? All ate merciless market! Market personality among the generals are not needed. They still do not understand? When they understand, it will be late.

In order to make a career now, the general needs to be as gray as a mouse, and it’s best not to have any military merit, but to become rich with relatives, friends and acquaintances surrounded by the president, the prime minister and the minister of defense.

Is it possible to do business on defense? How the camarilla will fight, made up of mice and thieves, is not even known to God. Most likely, no, scatter at the first shots!

Will Russia, in its torn state, have Minins and Pozharskys? I want to believe - there will be! And let the temporary workers be rewarded according to their merits!


* * *

However, Ragozin's interview with the Russia-24 television channel on the night of June 14 also made a strange impression. Hearing that we are talking about the development of the defense industry, I stared at the screen. And it was why: Dmitry Olegovich and Tula did not ignore, announced the decision to build two new military plants in the city: cartridge and rifle armaments.

Even the frivolous little girl who interviewed him managed to ask a reasonable question: is it necessary to build in the presence of old, well-deserved factories? Why not upgrade the TOZ and the existing cartridge, obviously not fully loaded?

To which the vice-premier said it was important to say that building from scratch is easier than upgrading. Oh, I do! The lion's share of the costs of any construction are buildings, structures and communications. Why put them again? Are not private enterprises going to build on public money?

And then I remembered Skolkovo, which was also preferred to be built on bare ground. And he remembered that Rogozin Jr. - Deputy General Director of the Moscow arms factory "Promtehnologiya" (ORSIS rifles). And a spark of understanding flashed in my head.

But immediately after that he stopped understanding again. It was about the defense industry without private capital, and for this it is necessary to sacrifice secrecy. Rogozin for revealing everything that is possible, leaving only the very thing. Are there any earnings from defense managers?

And in unison, he is addressed by Major General (Ret.) Savostyanov, Deputy Chairman of the Board of the Center for Assistance to Russian-American Rapprochement (MIC, N21, 2012). So the idea is in the air. Just think how good it will be if everyone knows everything about each other’s military technologies: the Americans about ours, we about the Americans. War - skiff, because there is nothing to suspect.

We will reveal something, if we still have something to reveal - will the Yankees open?

And how with such views on secrecy, you can lead the defense industry? It is strange, if not more. “We will do everything by 2020, the defense industry will equip the army with the best weapons in the world,” says Rogozin. But how to believe him, if he focuses on the private sector, if he is ready to reveal all our secrets, present and future, if, leaving aside the empty factory buildings, he is going to build from scratch?

I can not believe, Dmitry Olegovich! Somehow not serious! In addition, he also swears that he will not allow stealing a penny and there will be no statute of limitations for those who steal from the defense industry. Like lip oil!

Someone will say, and what would not see? On Twitter, Rogozin exclaims: "Give me three years, and I will take your skepticism and disbelief from you!" And indeed, "our calf ...". The trouble is that such zealous for a quarter of a century saw enough. Gorbachev promised socialism with a human face, Yeltsin threatened to lie on the rails, Chubais promised two Volga wagons. And as time goes on, the country is weakening and in many respects already included in the second hundred of world powers, among the first from the end!

Time does not wait, Mr. Rogozin, the limit of promises is over! The burden of the one who undertakes the revival of the defense industry. And Rogozin is easy. Or just because we do not believe in his promises? We ate with Gorbachev, with Yeltsin, with Chubais, with Mavrodi. It remains for Rogozin to believe! And what is better? - "The same soup, yes thinner vly"!

I would be glad to be mistaken, but, does not the Rogozin impromptu serve to cover up the scam of the century, plunder 23 of trillions of rubles of state money, released for defense before 2020 of the year? And this is not so much strange, how deadly!

However, wait and see ... if you happen to live!

PS It so happened that the article on the weirdness of Russian news was mostly devoted to Rogozin. This is no accident: the Deputy Prime Minister is under the scrutiny of the defense industry. Many expectations, but disappointments have already begun. Here are the disappointing conclusions of six months of his defense leadership:

1) Dmitry Dmitrievich doesn’t think without a private trader, which means that public funds (23 trillions up to 2020) will flow into greedy pockets;

2) Dmitry Dmitrievich doesn’t think in defense without private owners, which means that the level of secrecy will decrease and decrease, and our geopolitical opponents will find out what they did not know before Rogozin;

3) Dmitriy Olegovich without a private trader does not think of the defense industry, which means that federal enterprises will tend to zero, and at a difficult moment the state will have no one to rely on. It was not for nothing that, at the height of the First World War, the head of the State Agrarian University, Manikovsky, proposed that the Tsar should nationalize private shell factories, because they were overpriced by half compared to the state ones.

Running a private trader in the defense industry is the same as putting a goat in the garden or a fox in a chicken coop! Naivety Rogozin can be envied. But is it naive?

Anything has happened in storiesit happened that the person who took on a big deal, the logic of events led to a change of priorities. From the nearest time: Fidel Castro and Alexander Lukashenko. Can it happen to Rogozin? So far, nothing but “our calf, eat a wolf,” cannot be said about his promises. None can be trusted if it relies on a private trader!

Does the hero really think about why the Tula Arms Factory remained state-owned since 1712? I came up with a “litmus test”: let the vice-premier tell and testify before us that the weapons and ammunition factories under construction in Tula will remain federal, and after that we will think whether to believe the rest!

In essence, it is about what defense industry Rogozin is building, private or state. From this and the result, and trust. Rogozin took the wrong course and is waiting for his failure!

Someone will ask, and why am I not happy? Dreamed of new factories, so here they are! I dreamed about real ones, not simulacra. "Democrats" slip the screwdriver assembly, the harmful production, which European cleaners seek to remove from their territory, and the elite, intended for sale abroad. How to be happy? What rejoice?

And Rogozin is not a joy, but in sorrow, since he hammered into his head that the private owner is more effective than the state. In the production of junk, where competition and product change every quarter, if not a month, maybe more efficiently. Only not in the defense industry!

Rogozin is wrong, or lying. What other alternatives can there be?
Author:
Originator:
http://svoim.info/201230/?30_3_1
105 comments
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  1. Vanek
    Vanek 24 July 2012 06: 30
    +21
    Private owners in the defense industry does not belong !!! For neh ... !!!

    Hello to everyone.
    1. Varnaga
      Varnaga 24 July 2012 06: 47
      0
      Private traders just have a place in the defense industry, because, as practice shows, a considerable number of military-industrial complex enterprises simply got drunk, sawing budget money. The reason is trivial, lack of competition, agreements, etc. Of course, no one is going to give them "secrets", Rogozin, by the way, clearly stipulated this, and in fact, private traders have been working in cooperation with the military-industrial complex for a long time, especially in any design bureaus that do not have their own production base (I'm talking about the manufacture of various details).
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 24 July 2012 06: 50
        +11
        Quote: Varnaga
        (I'm talking about making various parts).


        Accessories, yes. Track rollers for the tank or trucks for it. But no more than that.
        1. aleks
          aleks 24 July 2012 13: 52
          +4
          Truck-iron-and how do you like tires for submarine submarine cases, gyroscopes, etc. Is this all nothing more ...?
          1. Vanek
            Vanek 24 July 2012 14: 22
            +1
            Quote: aleks
            This is all nothing more ...?


            Well, what are you so right from the extremes to the extreme.
            1. alex-defensor
              alex-defensor 24 July 2012 20: 15
              0
              they started talking again, not about disbanding, but about reforming the Tula airborne motto, about transferring it from regiment to brigade base


              The brigade principle is a general trend in the development of modern armies. In ours, it has long been put to implementation. The principle is to create autonomous small battle groups capable of acting independently and for a long time in a real war (including behind enemy lines, especially if it is a landing).

              Here in small groups of 1,5 - 2 million people will not ride !!! laughing
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 07: 08
        +14
        Quote: Varnaga
        The reason is commonplace, lack of competition,

        Not long ago there was competition, there were different kb and they competed with each other, there were factories building submarines and where everything went, put up for auction and transferred to private owners from auctions.
        1. Varnaga
          Varnaga 24 July 2012 07: 28
          -9
          Competition? What the hell is the competition for example in the military-industrial complex, which produces "Tiger" and drives outright hack-work? By the way, we remember the happy Soviet times, when there were 3 MBTs, yes. Then you have solid blablabla, is Sevmash sold or can it be transferred to private traders? Don't disappoint me, write something about privatization.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 07: 54
            +10
            Quote: Varnaga
            Do not disappoint me, write something about privatization

            How many enterprises were bent after the transfer to private hands, I will say a modest amount! How many enterprises produced submarines and how many of the privately owned controlling stakes are now letting out? That DRY all exactly or really on the example of KNAAPO to tell what is happening at the enterprise. Do not disappoint me, write as is! I also want that there would be competition and modern types of weapons. And actually, what does the Tiger not suit or is Iveco better?
            1. Varnaga
              Varnaga 24 July 2012 08: 05
              -4
              Let’s say, I’m especially interested in the period from 2000 of the year, and until today.
              There are also many enterprises that, after privatization, work quite successfully for themselves, I will not spread my thoughts on the tree and give some examples that are close to me:
              OJSC Krasnoyarsk Machine-Building Plant
              OJSC Zlatmash
              OJSC GRC
              LLC "VITs"
              etc., etc.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 08: 24
                +12
                I asked another question: how many enterprises were covered with a copper basin. And given that you simply ignore the questions, and bring only the pros - stubbornly and not wanting to notice frank cons, it seems that I am talking with the Minister of Defense himself.
                Quote: Varnaga
                 0 
                Let’s say, I’m especially interested in the period from 2000 of the year, and until today.
                How much dough and under the roof of which OPG the KNAAPO plant was located until recently, it was the Obshchak OPG where millions of the plant flowed. How many aircraft for the Russian Air Force did the plant produce, if just a year ago the plant had a four-day working week. Now the plant is fully loaded and the conclusion of additional export orders will put an end to the supply of SU 35 to the Russian Air Force. Specialists are leaving the factory and it is a fact that those who are not able to fulfill the standards come to replace them and, having received a salary of 7 thousand, leave for a hairdryer. But you don’t want to notice such "little things"!
                1. Varnaga
                  Varnaga 24 July 2012 08: 57
                  -5
                  Again 25, I did not count the closed enterprises, I gave examples of those that I know and which (a drop in the ocean) are located in my region. I am not obliged to notice the little things of your plant, because I have nothing to do with him, a flood on the repeatedly discussed topic "Tiger-Iveco" does not intend to breed.
                  You here ascribe to me the role of a hurray-patriot, but this is not so, I notice the "little things" in the topic in which I am cooking no worse than yours, however, I also do not intend to shout all the polymers, because I see very specific results of the work of very specific people.
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 09: 37
                    +7
                    Quote: Varnaga
                    the topic "Tiger-Iveco" does not intend to breed

                    In other words, why you do not know the Tiger is bad, and you can afford a simple blah blah blah. I also see the results of the work and notice their advantages, but at the same time I do not turn my back on the minuses. And shouting that it’s not necessary to badly, in this case you asked to give an example, it’s very interesting to listen, and when it was brought up, they answered
                    Quote: Varnaga
                    I am not obliged to notice the little things of your plant, because I have nothing to do with him, a flood on the repeatedly discussed topic "Tiger-Iveco" does not intend to breed.

                    I think everything is clear to everyone!
                    1. PSih2097
                      PSih2097 24 July 2012 16: 10
                      +1
                      In other words, why is the Tiger bad ...

                      At the price, it is twice as expensive as the similar HMMWV 3 versus 500 p.
              2. Sibiryak
                Sibiryak 24 July 2012 11: 56
                +12
                I apologize to your conversation, but after reading about Krasnoyarsk JSC "KrasMash" I simply could not stand it! Dear Varnaga before citing the success of privatization at this enterprise as an example, you would first get to know the real state of affairs in the period from 2000 to this day !!! I say simple words: WITH THE ARRIVAL OF PARTICIPANTS, THE ENTERPRISE Slightly WAS NOT DECIDED BY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMEN TO PUSH IT INTO UNITS, UNTIL THE STATE HAS INCLUDED A ROUND AMOUNT AND NOT CHANGE IT! AND AT THIS MOMENT, THIS FACTORY IS PRODUCING PROFILE PRODUCTS, FOR THE PURPOSE OF WHICH IT WAS BUILT! So do not hang people Noodle on the ears, at least for this enterprise!
                Regards Sibiryak!
                1. Varnaga
                  Varnaga 25 July 2012 19: 46
                  -1
                  Sibiryak, I am aware of the history of your enterprise, however, you could not notice that the crisis of the plant occurred at the time when the GOZ on R-29RM was closed in 1996, which was certainly a monstrous mistake. To remind with whose arrival the production was started, already in a modernized version? And with colossal efforts, but nonetheless. At that time, almost all defense industry enterprises were destroyed and the point here is not at all in the form of ownership, which by the way is wholly owned by the state.
            2. Raven1972
              Raven1972 24 July 2012 20: 29
              +3
              And I’ll add here all the domestic electronics and microelectronics, which they killed on the spot .... An example right in my city, before my eyes - I myself once worked at this plant .... P / O Grenade was called .. .
        2. bddrus
          bddrus 24 July 2012 13: 31
          -5
          how did kb compete? if the budget is state, then what they do or not will come in handy to them, the main thing is to master the budget. If they did work for their grandmothers, and then only those who produced the best received money, then yes - competition, and so they all worked, they all earned.
          1. Korvin
            Korvin 24 July 2012 21: 22
            +1
            Dear, you forget that only the sample that won first place in the competition from the various design bureaus was accepted into service. Does anyone else remember that there were army COMPETITIONS in the Union? And not as they developed, accepted now because there is still no alternative. That’s why we have an unknown Kalashnikov’s assault rifle and not some Pupkin’s assault rifle just because Pupkin’s brought in, who needs it because he has loot and there are acquaintances through which you can, make.,.
            1. bddrus
              bddrus 25 July 2012 08: 21
              +1
              But what did KB lose whose development was not accepted? it was financed from the budget for several years while it was developing, yet it was state owned, there was no money of its own. Right now, some are developing themselves to sell to the state - here we must try.
              1. Korvin
                Korvin 25 July 2012 22: 09
                0
                Well, you said it right ... only a few agree to develop for YOUR money, and as a rule they have enough money for very modest developments. Others who do not have guarantees in such conditions prefer to lease the space to subtenants and fall apart before the bankruptcy procedure. After that, it starts all over again .
      3. Rinat-106
        Rinat-106 24 July 2012 07: 23
        +9
        a considerable number of defense industry enterprises simply snickered
        For example, what kind of enterprise of the military industrial complex has snickered?
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 24 July 2012 10: 15
          0
          For example, Sevmash read how many Kalistratov wanted for a nuclear submarine?
      4. vezunchik
        vezunchik 24 July 2012 08: 47
        +4
        Yes, but private enterprises are buying up the West through frontmen! So what..????
        1. 755962
          755962 24 July 2012 10: 13
          +4
          Quote: vezunchik
          Yes, but private enterprises are buying up the West through frontmen!

          Then think about it ... for a second, with the entry into the WTO, what will happen ???
          1. Z.A.M.
            Z.A.M. 24 July 2012 10: 29
            +6
            755962

            Quote: 755962
            with joining the WTO, what will happen ???


            Thought ... W ABOUT A.
            Maybe rude, sorry, but it just seems rude. This is me soft and brief.
            1. VAF
              VAF 24 July 2012 11: 19
              +1
              Quote: Z.A.M.
              Thought ... W ABOUT A.


              Very correctly thought, +! good

              But VERY soft and concise .....
          2. VAF
            VAF 24 July 2012 11: 18
            +2
            Quote: 755962
            Then think about it ... for a second, with the entry into the WTO, what will happen ???


            Zheka, full ........ well, in short, you understand. I'm talking about what's in front !!! +!
          3. Yeti
            Yeti 24 July 2012 11: 50
            +12
            Private contractor will ruin the army! And he’ll sell the sweetest to enemies. As they say; nothing personal...
      5. Kaa
        Kaa 24 July 2012 08: 50
        +16
        Quote: Varnaga
        Private owners just have a place in the defense industry, because, as practice shows, a considerable number of defense industry enterprises simply snickered, cutting budget money. The reason is commonplace, lack of competition, agreements, etc.

        It became habitual to criticize everything connected with Stalin, BUT: for the creation of a fighter, a bomber, etc. TENS of design groups and several design bureaus competed. Attempts to cut were suppressed by what in the 80s was called "political repression", read the real background of most of the sentences. This does not mean the abolition of the private sector of production, on the contrary, only Khrushchev turned it down: “And what legacy did Comrade Stalin leave to the country in the form of the entrepreneurial sector of the economy? There were 114000 (one hundred and fourteen thousand!) Workshops and enterprises of various directions - from the food industry to metalworking and from the jewelry business to the chemical industry, employing about two million people who produced almost 6% of the gross industrial output of the USSR, and artels and industrial cooperatives produced 40% of furniture, 70% of metal dishes, more than a third of all knitwear, almost all children's toys. The business sector had about a hundred design bureaus, 22 experimental laboratories and even two research institutes.Moreover, this sector had its own non-state pension system! Not to mention the fact that the artels provided loans to their members for the purchase of livestock , tools and equipment, construction living lya ".http: //anticomprador.ru/publ/a_k_trubicyn_o_staline_i_predprinimatel
        jakh / 29-1-0-1065
        But where is the defense industry on this list ?! And one of the reasons that led Russia to a disaster in 1917 was the lawlessness of contractors in military orders. We need it, the second time on the same rake ?!
        1. Yeti
          Yeti 24 July 2012 11: 47
          +15
          As one stupid Frenchman put it; Stalin did not die, he went into the future!
          It remains only not to miss each other with him.
          1. recitatorus
            recitatorus 24 July 2012 19: 57
            +4
            Yeti,
            An attempt is just beginning, so far only an attempt, of understanding the economy of Stalin! Amazing discoveries at every turn!
      6. red 015
        red 015 24 July 2012 11: 58
        +6
        there were no private owners in the ussr and the defense industry worked perfectly, the fact is that everything must be tightly controlled as before
      7. Ustas
        Ustas 24 July 2012 12: 52
        +5
        Quote: Varnaga
        Private owners just have a place in the defense industry, because, as practice shows,

        Oh, robots, you forget the Russian History. But in vain. Remember Tsar Peter. As Alekseevich, private industrialists dragged by forelocks and beards. Because they (effective private traders) supplied hemp and cloth to the army. Yes, they, private traders, would have to cut the dough. But will there be such a statesman-tyrant (in a good sense) as Pyotr Alekseevich in our time. So much so that not only forelocks would crack, and not only among private traders. And if there is, then private enterprises will not be needed.
      8. His
        His 24 July 2012 18: 12
        -2
        I agree. It is more difficult to steal from a private trader. They will quickly find their own faster than any prosecutors. It's time to live under non-state capitalism
      9. Raven1972
        Raven1972 24 July 2012 20: 24
        +4
        Well, private traders in the defense industry will cut them no less, as mentioned above due to inflation of prices for their products. Why do you think you had to buy battleships abroad in the Russian Empire? Yes, because their estimated cost was 10 times overstated - instead of 4 million rubles, all 40 million ... They bought it in England, Germany, and then they just collected it ... And there is a great doubt that the emergency situation has its own technological base that allows it to produce the same components quality necessary for the military-industrial complex ... After all, it is necessary to invest a lot of money, and as time has shown, the private trader is not going to do this at all ...... request
    2. Dmitriy69
      Dmitriy69 24 July 2012 07: 00
      +9
      The Ministry of Defense has declined itself completely for a long time and is now successfully declining power in general. I wonder if Putin really doesn’t understand this. And if you understand, then why are only some half measures taken?
      1. Fox
        Fox 24 July 2012 07: 21
        +8
        because pukin is in proportion.!
        1. Tersky
          Tersky 24 July 2012 07: 36
          +1
          Quote: Fox
          because pukin is in proportion.!

          Right? And how much do they unfasten him, do not share? And some kind of docs, please ... but somehow they take doubts.
          1. Ymidge
            Ymidge 24 July 2012 08: 42
            +12
            For hatred, as well as for jealousy, neither facts nor documents are needed ...
            1. Dmitriy69
              Dmitriy69 24 July 2012 09: 19
              +5
              Quote: Ymyj
              For hatred, as well as for jealousy, neither facts nor documents are needed ...

              Moreover, they often even interfere
              1. alexng
                alexng 24 July 2012 22: 57
                0
                But it’s interesting, what opposition is more systemic or not systemic to Russia?
    3. DYMITRY
      DYMITRY 24 July 2012 08: 22
      -1
      Quote: Vanek

      Private owners in the defense industry does not belong !!! For neh ... !!!

      Good day, Ivan!
      Do you know that during the Great Patriotic War 30% of ammunition was produced by artels? That is, private traders!
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 24 July 2012 08: 29
        +4
        And good day to you.

        I would not want to be rude to you, but the fact remains - today is not the Great Patriotic War. When pressed, then the conversation will be. In the meantime, they have nothing to do there. Well, except that the rollers are supporting ........
    4. urzul
      urzul 24 July 2012 15: 01
      0
      Private traders are already flying into space, this is not Uncle Vanya with a file.
    5. Evil Tatar
      Evil Tatar 24 July 2012 19: 37
      0
      Quote: Vanek
      Private owners in the defense industry does not belong !!! For neh ... !!!

      Hello to everyone.


      Damn beaver ... Is it really not clear to anyone that one should shine ...
      Well, two or three ...

      Personally, I'm for Putin, but it's not a secret to anyone, I think that the first person is obliged. in the current situation, to be "on horseback", whatever it is ...

      What kind of suction?

      I didn’t even read to the end - two paragraphs were enough ...

      Either write, brothers, the entry according to the literary - journalistic rules, or go to ...., to the market ...

      Why arrange trash here?

      Are you few places on YouTube?
  2. Varnaga
    Varnaga 24 July 2012 06: 42
    -8
    The article from the next starter is simply saturated with sparkling shovel humor and unique laughter ... I see a wonderful picture: a half-retired peasant, feeding on rumors of log burners, sitting in the kitchen in tattered socks boldly thinks about how to equip Mother Russia, and at the same time raise the military-industrial complex .
    This body is relaxed, something deigned to burp about Skolkovo, by default, implying that the Truth is being hidden from us, meanwhile, our sector has recently taken up one of the topics related to TEM9H SinaraHybrid, developed with the strong support of Skolkovo. Why am I doing this? Besides, while such idiots written off as salvage are grumbling and drooling, serious people quite seriously develop the industry, while earning a considerable gesheft.
    1. esaul
      esaul 24 July 2012 07: 00
      -9
      Quote: Varnaga
      the old man is simply saturated with sparkling soviet humor and unique laughter ... I see a marvelous picture: a half-retired peasant, eating rumors of log burners, sitting in the kitchen in tattered socks boldly thinks about how to equip Mother Russia, and at the same time raise the military-industrial complex.

      Salute, colleague! Stopudovo support this characteristic and the creator and his creation! good
      1. DYMITRY
        DYMITRY 24 July 2012 08: 30
        -10
        Varnaga, esaul
        I agree with you 100%
      2. rate 60
        rate 60 24 July 2012 11: 14
        +5
        Well, of course, everyone knows that such articles are contrary to your worldview. It was necessary to call the author swamp, orange and gay. Many of your supporters here have already seen their sight, began to think and analyze on their own. It can be seen how annoying you are, but NEIGHBORS will be less and less every day. and less.
      3. Russian-
        Russian- 24 July 2012 17: 40
        -1
        Quote: esaul
        Salute, colleague! Stopudovo support this characteristic and the creator and his creation!

        Me too - I support your opinion.
        Quote: urzul
        Private traders are already flying into space, this is not Uncle Vanya with a file.

        And yours.
      4. alexng
        alexng 24 July 2012 23: 06
        0
        Something on the forum began the attack of colorful trolls. Desiccants get the pros, and the rest are the cons. I personally do not care about these points, but they reflect those who support their country, and who want its speedy collapse.
    2. valokordin
      valokordin 24 July 2012 07: 06
      +3
      Nostper, a harmful and dangerous type, mishandled by the bourgeois
    3. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 07: 15
      +10
      If there were no problems, then there were no such articles, or you stupidly support everything that is being done, without even going into details. The person has put forward his point of view and I agree with him in many ways, as an example, the transfer of ground forces to the Air Force, now came back. Zhukovka was closed, and a lot of things still. And you forgot to write URA at the end of your post.
      1. Varnaga
        Varnaga 24 July 2012 07: 33
        -8
        Yes, I do not care about such opinions, the argumentation of which is one-no. One vyser about how Russia bows to Georgia is just a clinic. By the way, the patient is published by Mukhin in his pitiful newspaper "Duel", oil painting, as they say, hehe.
        What should I write at the end of my post is I without you, Alexander, I know.
      2. DYMITRY
        DYMITRY 24 July 2012 08: 33
        -7
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        And you forgot to write URA at the end of your post.

        And stupidly yelling everything was gone !!! Grab the bags the train station is leaving !!! This is better? Relying on the articles of jaundice journalists, and not trying to include his own head.
        1. Z.A.M.
          Z.A.M. 24 July 2012 08: 58
          +8
          DYMITRY

          Quote: DYMITRY
          without trying to turn on your own head.


          Well, my dear, you have killed ... This is not the head on which the watermelon peels are? ... wink
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 09: 00
          +12
          Quote: DYMITRY

          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          And you forgot to write URA at the end of your post.
          And stupidly yelling everything was gone !!!

          No, you don’t need to write stupidly, that everything was gone and I do not. I know without statues of base journalists that not everything is good in our kingdom.
          Quote: DYMITRY
          and not trying to turn on your own head.

          Give an example where and in which exact place I think not with my own head? And yelling about the exceptional successes of Serdyukov is to definitely not include your head!
          1. DYMITRY
            DYMITRY 24 July 2012 09: 20
            0
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Give an example where and in which exact place I think not with my own head?

            In general, about the author was not written about the author of the article. In the article itself there is not a single thought of the author. Solid - Everything is gone! And reprints of base journalists.
            Nobody argues that there are problems and there are a lot of them. But let's not forget the commonplace truths: If someone’s actions seem to be the height of the absurd, then maybe it’s not the person who performs these actions - but we don’t know what? It’s necessary to understand. And to understand it is necessary to have the entirety of information. And I very much doubt that one of the members of the forum, and even more so the author of the article, has access to documents with the signature stamp OV. And in such a field as the military-industrial complex and the army, it is debatable to draw conclusions without having access to such documents.
            Quote: Z.A.M.
            Isn't that the head on which the watermelon peels are?

            When there is nothing to be said, let's pay attention to the avatar?
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 09: 43
              +8
              Quote: DYMITRY
              It’s necessary to understand.

              That's what I'm talking about, sort it out! And do not support the stupidity and idiocy of Messrs. Makrov and Serdyukov. And to support blindly and to say everything correctly, and the Tiger is a worthless machine, why. The man refused to discuss it -that is called ....................... No comments!
              1. DYMITRY
                DYMITRY 24 July 2012 10: 01
                -1
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                And do not support the stupidity and idiocy of Messrs. Makrov and Serdyukov.

                So the same thing must be dealt with! Or maybe it's not stupid? Let on a superficial glance this look like direct wrecking. Maybe we don’t know why they are forced to do things that look like this? Maybe Serdyukov is the creature of Mr. Chubais, who is a direct protege of the Fed, and now they simply cannot remove him without starting the open phase of the war? There can be a lot of such, therefore I am categorically against such all-missing articles. Let's remember the 30s. On a superficial look, the mopping-up of the Red Army's top command staff also looked like direct sabotage, but in reality?
                1. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 11: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: DYMITRY
                  . Let's remember the 30 years. On a superficial look, the mopping-up of the Red Army's top command staff also looked like direct sabotage, but in fact
                  But in fact, this led to the fact that at the beginning of the war there was an acute shortage of commanding personnel! But in your opinion, the destruction of the command structure of armies and divisions is a positive, I understand you correctly?
                  1. DYMITRY
                    DYMITRY 24 July 2012 11: 44
                    +2
                    Quote: Alexander Romanov
                    But in fact, this led to the fact that at the beginning of the war there was an acute shortage of commanding personnel!

                    And let's imagine that in addition to Pavlov, who surrendered the western special military district to the Germans, Tukhachevsky, Yakir, Uborevich, and others would remain at their posts. I think so Moscow would have surrendered in August 41st. And then the Germans could then throw back another very big question.
                    So I think that stripping traitors in the highest command is an absolute positive !!!!
                    1. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 12: 09
                      +1
                      Quote: DYMITRY
                      And let's imagine that in addition to Pavlov, who surrendered to the Germans the western special military okru

                      Pavlov was shot in 41, and you talked about 30! I replied that I was thinking about this. And why didn’t the traitor Pavlov be shot in 37?
                      Quote: DYMITRY
                      I think that Moscow would have been surrendered in August 41. And then the Germans could then throw back another very big question.

                      Fuck you here, then there was Stalin and no one would have surrendered Moscow. By the way, many German generals thought they would take Moscow.
                      Quote: DYMITRY
                      So I believe that the cleansing of traitors in the highest command is an absolute positive !!!
                      Remind you of Mr. Vlasov, is the rot so rot that they didn’t clean it up? And tell your veterans your opinion about Moscow, I think they will worthily mark your post.
                      1. DYMITRY
                        DYMITRY 24 July 2012 13: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Pavlov was shot in the 41st, and you talked about the 30s!

                        Since Pavlov was practically the only one of that galaxy of traitors. Therefore, he mentioned it.
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Fuck you here, then there was Stalin and no one would have surrendered Moscow.

                        And you imagine that the other fronts met the Germans as well as the Western special. And they didn’t advance by 10-20 km. as in real history, but at 300-500 km as a call. There would be no where to throw reserves from. There would be ten times more boilers. Almost 100% of aviation, armored vehicles and artillery would be lost as in the Western special. All stocks, including ammunition and food of all districts, would have been lost, as it actually happened in the Western special. Why would Moscow be closed?
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Remind you of Mr. Vlasov, is the rot so rot that they didn’t clean it up?

                        Vlasov is probably a slightly different story. He learned from the SS after being captured, and before that he fought well. And those characters were recruited long before the war.
                        And veterans, clever people perfectly understand that if all the districts had the same betrayal as Pavlov’s, Moscow would hardly have been defended.
                      2. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 14: 40
                        +2
                        Quote: DYMITRY

                        Vlasov is probably a slightly different story. He learned from the aftermath of captivity,

                        And many did not study ss!
                        Quote: DYMITRY
                        veterans, intelligent people perfectly understand that if in all districts there would be the same betrayal as Pavlov

                        We have one Pavlov, who commanded the entire Western group, And the topic of the article is a little different. But despite this, skinte a little material, sincere recognition of Pavlov, I read at my leisure.
            2. Z.A.M.
              Z.A.M. 24 July 2012 10: 20
              +3
              DYMITRY
              Quote: DYMITRY
              When there is nothing to be said, let's pay attention to the avatar?

              Do not sulk, this is by the way, and they themselves chose an avatar ... wink
        3. Ustas
          Ustas 24 July 2012 13: 16
          +5
          Quote: DYMITRY
          And stupidly yelling everything was gone !!! Grab the bags the train station is leaving !!! This is better?

          And no one screams.
          Thinking people ask questions. Trying to realize.
          Nobody shouts cheers to the author, but the cheers of power, too, with the exception of a few.
          On my own I will say that in the 90s I sniffed this private initiative, nowhere else. And I realized one thing, one loot on the mind of these effective owners. Even at a shallow level, the richer the owner, the more he prefers not to pay debts. We have a district in our city, like Rublevka, where there is the largest debt for electricity and communal services.
          And on the example of DSK (a private company, a city-forming enterprise) I will say that there was a state order for "affordable housing", at the expense of state funding, the workers lived more or less. Now no, bankruptcy looms on the horizon. Workers on forced unpaid leave. Well, where is the effectiveness of managers? Is there enough efficiency only when the state supports it? But in the old days (the era of the USSR) the plant supplied products abroad.
      3. dmb
        dmb 24 July 2012 09: 50
        +11
        A. Romanov (3). Although I often disagree with what you have expressed, in this case I absolutely agree. Gentlemen. your opponents remind you of the King from the play "An Ordinary Miracle". “Everything is good”, “The author-scoop”, “The intrigues of the“ orange. ”“ You are the pigs, not the subjects. ”The arguments of these“ quick-witted Neutons ”are not rich, so they immediately turn to insults. In principle, this is not surprising. admitting that Serdyukov is crushing the army, an individual who thinks in the slightest degree asks: “How did he become a minister and why is he still a minister.” But this is already an attempt on the sacred, and therefore the intrigues of the State Department. At least one simple question: Do they know what the budget cost to cut 200 thousand officers and immediately recruit 70 thousand of them? You can also ask about the army aviation and special forces brigades. You can ask a lot more about what.
        1. VAF
          VAF 24 July 2012 11: 24
          +2
          Quote: dmb
          Do they know how much the budget has reduced 200 thousand officers and then recruited 70 thousand of them. You can also ask for army aviation and special forces brigades. You can ask a lot more.


          +++++ !!!!!!! Only now they will answer you that you are an orange-swamp prosralipolymer well and the like !!

          And I myself will continue the clearly planned line by arranging and approving !!!
        2. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 12: 18
          +4
          Quote: dmb
          A. Romanov (3). Being often disagree with what is expressed by you, in this case I absolutely agree

          Yes, I often disagree with myself. I just live in hope for a better future for Russia, without NPOs, untouchable deputies and other crap.
          1. ole
            ole 24 July 2012 13: 06
            +2
            You know, maybe a little off topic, but here's the news about paid health care services that are not part of the state. guarantees will be straining and very much, where is the state’s concern for the growth of demography, the majority of the population have beggarly salaries (cheaper to die), so from here the defense industry should invest money with one hand and squeeze as much as possible with the other.
  3. Chemist
    Chemist 24 July 2012 06: 44
    +7
    Mess in one word. From the flames and into the fires, now thousands of millions, then private owners are probably not called with a clear financial past. Those drag from the defense to the hut!
  4. valokordin
    valokordin 24 July 2012 06: 55
    +15
    The author is a true patriot of the country, the article is necessary and timely, Of course, Serdyukov is a figure clearly harmful, but necessary for leadership. The authorities are afraid of the army, because it is workers and peasants. No wonder the GRU colonel is in prison. There are no nobles in the army, the children of modern boyars are studying over the hill. The Ministry of Internal Affairs is larger than the army, as it is necessary to keep your people in check. Rogozin made a good impression, but one should never forget to whom he serves and to whom he obeys. On Ustinova D.F. he clearly does not pull the wrong scale. And the fact that he is counting on a private trader is the same political direction of the leadership. I wonder who the owner of Boeing, Lockheed, General Dynamics, Grumman, etc. is clearly not Abramovich, Deripaska, Gref, Chubais, etc.
  5. tan0472
    tan0472 24 July 2012 07: 15
    +8
    The defense industry should become the locomotive of the economy for the training of professional personnel. And then money in ten years may be found, but there is no highly professional hard worker. Are there many vocational training schools working on modern machines? And how long does it take to get a master from a vocational school?
    1. alexng
      alexng 24 July 2012 08: 23
      -4
      tan0474, I agree with you.
      And somehow everything turns out to be one-sided for the author. Guard! They've stolen everything and continue to steal! I am a citizen of Russia and will always support the government that will be at the moment, because this is my country. And no matter who will be in power, Putin or Zyuganov, or someone else, I will still support, although I treat different political representatives differently. But I repeat - this is my country and the president is the guarantor of my state, whoever he is. Here are just the liberals-workers should not be allowed to run the country and, ultimately, to the collapse of the country. And throwing yourself into power de-Rh-Mom is like throwing the same thing into Russia itself. Therefore, before writing and splashing bile, you need to think on whose side you are on the side of Russia or on the side of the Opponents of Russia. It is possible and necessary to criticize, but when it is like this: "Everything is bad and everything is lost and there is nothing good. We are all flawed, etc." - this is already another extreme, for which it is necessary to drive out of the country and the faster the better for Russia.
      1. Ustas
        Ustas 24 July 2012 13: 25
        +3
        Quote: alexneg
        I am a citizen of Russia and I will always support the power that will be at the moment, because this is my country. And it doesn’t matter who Putin or Zyuganov will be in power, or someone else,

        And I am a citizen of Russia, and I will support the government, but not all, but one that does everything and more to strengthen the homeland and the people as a whole, and not individual citizens.
        Russians are strong collectivism.
        1. alexng
          alexng 24 July 2012 14: 07
          -2
          This is my opinion and it doesn’t matter whether someone likes it or not. And it doesn’t matter what kind of power, but if the enemy trample on Russia with war, then those who do not support this power will defend the homeland. Power no matter what they are, its people never like it, and in any country it’s a classic. This is so for information.
        2. alexng
          alexng 24 July 2012 22: 52
          -2
          The correspondent comes to the insane asylum and asks the Director:
          - And how do you determine - is it time to write out, or is it not time yet?
          Director:
          - We have a special, absolutely accurate test! We pour a full bath of water, put a teaspoon, a tablespoon, and a large mug nearby.
          And we suggest that the patient quickly release the bath from the water ...
          Correspondent:
          - Ah, got it! It is clear that a normal person will take a mug!
          Director:
          - You are mistaken, my friend! A normal person will take out the cork.


          Somewhere like that.
  6. dark_65
    dark_65 24 July 2012 07: 17
    +8
    Rogozin .. just like a prostitute for me ... but expensive and able to sell at full price list, and at the right time for yourself.
    I had enough of the story with the CRO ...... paragraph.
  7. uralkos
    uralkos 24 July 2012 07: 26
    +7
    I will not put any pros or cons. Because it is completely stupid to completely give the military industry to private hands. But they can say about the quality of the ammunition, the shit (sorry) is complete. And this is g .... have been producing for 10 years already. And they themselves admit that they are not able to produce high-quality ammunition for small arms. Lapua or Magnum have long been ahead in terms of these indicators. And the fact that new plants are needed is a fact. The buildings are old and not designed for new equipment. A CNC machine who does not know, should work in rooms with climate control. After all, there is gunpowder. Ventilation and exhaust should be provided, according to modern standards and not as it is now. Communication requirements have changed so much that no old building can meet at least some minor safety requirements. Why doesn’t anyone say that the 30mm gun on the BMP, BMD and helicopters has long been out of date. Why doesn’t anyone remember the practically worst of the tank barrels on the newest T-90 ??? Why doesn’t anyone remember that the accuracy of AK can be achieved with an elementarily better cutting of the barrel and the same quality of ammunition. ??? We need to radically change the attitude of the defense industry towards the production of equipment and weapons. This is where Rogozin is right.
    1. Armata
      Armata 24 July 2012 07: 35
      +12
      Quote: uralkos
      A CNC machine who does not know, should work in rooms with climate control.

      CNC machines are equipped with their own temperature settings that maintain the temperature in electronic cabinets and in the temperature balancing system of hydraulics.
      And what's on the topic. You can’t give up the defense industry to private hands, you cannot privatize, it will destroy the remaining personnel in the KB (not one watchman will contain people who have been working for the 5-10 years, all the comrades live today). And as you know, workers can be trained for 1-2 of the year, and the designer must be grown for a long time. If you work only on components and then no more than 20%, as commercial enterprises die like flies and prices change as they like. And if a budget is signed, let's say we have 1000 tanks, and having released 100, suppliers have taken and raised prices for whom the losses on production of 900 will hit. So nonsense is all. It is necessary to create competitive design bureaus owned by the state and then give the manufacturer the most successful project.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 24 July 2012 10: 19
        +3
        Probably not so should be large state holdings that will include the head office of KB and those who will sell it all.
        But some subcontractors should be private traders.
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 24 July 2012 20: 49
          0
          I repeat once again - provided that the private owner has the necessary production base that allows producing components that meet the requirements of the military-industrial complex quality ...
      2. VAF
        VAF 24 July 2012 11: 27
        0
        Quote: Steam Train
        It is necessary to create competitive design bureaus owned by the state and then give the manufacturer the most successful project.


        Eugene, only ++++ !!!!! drinks
  8. dmitrich
    dmitrich 24 July 2012 07: 33
    +3
    after such an article, take the rope and hang yourself.
    1. Oleg Rosskiyy
      Oleg Rosskiyy 24 July 2012 19: 26
      0
      Quote: Dmitry
      after such an article, take the rope and hang yourself.

      It is not necessary so immediately, they will also write something that we would all run for ropes and soap. Building is always much more difficult than breaking, because you need to take into account and calculate all the details. I don’t want to blame anyone, but take any of us. , can he say what his loved one is doing while away from home? So the future of our country largely depends on how we educate our children, and who they want to become - a "singer", a "bank employee" or a technical worker?
  9. dark_65
    dark_65 24 July 2012 07: 40
    +7
    They put a minus ... we’ll survive, but I’m sure for sure ... the army is in the ass, and in the deep.
    everyone is stealing. And the military-industrial complex, and the generals themselves.
    and the very idea that you can raise a soldier in a year .. well, complete stupidity. That you can give the defense to a private trader ... let's remember Marx (what capital will be used for, with a profit of 100-300%) ... only the state and nothing else .If Europe has examples, then they have so many years of stability in private property ...
    The collapse of the old, and the construction of the new, was already.
  10. Magadan
    Magadan 24 July 2012 07: 47
    +9
    Private place in the defense industry does not belong!
    Because NATO private traders made weapons worse and more expensive than Soviet statesmen! A private trader let him make pizza, and not a cannon shot into the defense industry!
    In the Cold War era, NATO countries invested many times more than the USSR! And what did they do with this money? Give at least one example of the NATO Cold War era weapons that surpassed our weapons? And do not cite the invention of the Internet as an example! Let me remind you-the weapon is such a crap that they kill. So give me such an example of such crap! And then I will somehow believe the private trader. Because I believe only in the result.
    Private traders from the defense to drive to the neck !!!!
    Handing out all to private traders is a national betrayal! And the traitors will be destroyed! There will be both Minins and Pozharsky in Russia!
    1. valokordin
      valokordin 24 July 2012 08: 25
      +2
      Northerner, I completely agree, but only where are the statesmen, where are the military representatives, let there be somebody.
  11. dmnatbor
    dmnatbor 24 July 2012 07: 48
    0
    Round table On military education in the Russian Air Force and the possible consequences of the reform of the Armed Forces for military aviation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lphcUKni7vA&list=PL13C78C2780426A30&index=4&featu
    re = plcp
  12. Komsomolets
    Komsomolets 24 July 2012 08: 16
    +5
    Beautiful objective satya, the author is a big plus. I don’t even want to talk about Serdyuk, and Rogozin’s, albeit good, but so far only slogans.
  13. tank64rus
    tank64rus 24 July 2012 08: 18
    +5
    The first military conflict will immediately show all the results of the "reform." The question is one, if a private trader is a patriot and lives in Russia without accounts over the hill, this is one thing, but if a "inhabitant of the world" is completely different. People are all different and their division into classes is outdated. such socio-political processes are developing in the world that science does not keep up with. And with a private trader, the question can be solved very simply if you want to go to the defense industry, but if you screw up you will answer in full. But for all this you need to clean up the "elite" and change the moral priorities of society ...
    1. Z.A.M.
      Z.A.M. 24 July 2012 09: 05
      +3
      tank64rus

      I agree with you on the VERY important points that you highlighted:
      Quote: tank64rus
      The question is, if a private trader is a patriot and lives in Russia without bills over the hill, this is one thing, but if a "resident of the world" is completely different.

      Quote: tank64rus
      And with a private trader, the question can be solved very simply; if you want to go to the defense industry, go, but if you mess up, you will answer in full.
      I can only add to the latter - as under Stalin ...
  14. Chuck-norris
    Chuck-norris 24 July 2012 08: 40
    -3
    Who is the author?
  15. patriot2
    patriot2 24 July 2012 08: 47
    +2
    tank64rus, this is the most terrible thing, that only the war will show misses in the defense of the state, including the armed forces and defense industry. Only who is responsible for this - the untouchables? They will find a general or a minor official and write to him. And by and large, the casualties in military conflicts and major wars could have been much less if serious training had been going on for people in the troops and weapons. So we have in Russia for 10 girls, 7 guys, and in some regions less. This is the result of all the wars in which the USSR and Russia participated since 1945. Want more meaningless victims?
  16. Igarr
    Igarr 24 July 2012 09: 25
    +11
    Private traders - in the defense industry?!?!?!?!.
    Why are the spears breaking and daggers rattling?
    Now, isn’t there a private trader?
    And outsourcing - what?
    And, an idiotic uniform, suitable only for camouflage of tracks - what?
    And Mistral - what? State action ... or private initiative?
    ..
    Defenders of private traders and therefore emit saliva - because now Lafa.
    Let there be a private trader. Let.
    With the strictest control of secrecy, with restrictions on contact, with an in-depth check for standard (input-output)
    With high salaries.
    And .... without subsidies from the state.
    How long will it work?
    Do not tell ... the old feather in saggy training, sitting in the kitchen.
    There, a young, promising .... molupuk ... as he shouted before the elections - we provided, we fed, watered, we gave, we ... flattered. (Prokhorov).
    Dali ... to the Komsomol member ... to show off. And he seriously decided that he was cool. Hhh.
    ..
    No, the private owner wants to work for the idea - honor and praise to him. Let it work.
    He doesn’t want to - well, he don’t.
    ..
    And the defense of the state is a matter of the state.
    But not private .. tricks.
    1. Armata
      Armata 24 July 2012 09: 31
      +8
      I absolutely agree. +++++++ Just not knowing how the defense goes and is controlled, you can say that private traders can do this.
    2. Z.A.M.
      Z.A.M. 24 July 2012 10: 23
      +6
      Igarr

      Great comment, join.
  17. volcano
    volcano 24 July 2012 09: 55
    +2
    Honestly, I don’t even know.
    On the one hand, there is world experience showing that private traders plow quite normally in the defense sector. And they give out a good quality product.
    On the other hand, our defense industry enterprises, falling into private hands, ordered us to live for a long time, and at best produce pots and nails.

    Maybe we should try and conduct an experiment? For starters then ?. Let's make an order for combat small arms. Let's say an automaton. And see what happens, what quality, etc.
    And to transfer the entire defense industry to private hands at once ...... well, this is at least risky, and the maximum smacks of sabotage.
  18. the polar
    the polar 24 July 2012 10: 03
    +11
    If anyone remembers, in very recent times, the military-industrial complex was declared a monster that crushed the economy of the USSR, which allegedly sucked up exorbitant finances.
    And that only "conversion" will save Russia.
    Well, now, the military-industrial complex was "converted", so that only fragments remained of it.

    The prices for raw materials and electric energy, after that, increased tens and hundreds of times.

    Today, the costs of maintaining and developing the wreckage of the Soviet military-industrial complex cost no less than in Soviet times the maintenance of the entire military-industrial complex.

    After the privatization of the remainder of the military-industrial complex, the costs of the production and development of all weapons systems will increase at times, if not tens of times.

    Remember the recent privatization of the Unified Energy System of Russia, when you were promised a sharp decline in electricity prices due to internal competition.
    And where is the decline?

    However, explore the privatization of any industry, the results are the same everywhere.

    The same will be with the enterprises of the military-industrial complex.

    This is a well-planned operation for the future cutting of trillions allocated for "defense" with the help of privatized enterprises of the military-industrial complex.

    And in sum, this is another betrayal of the collaborative power.
    And it makes no sense to list them by last name or by job title.
    They are all one gang of traitors.
    1. ole
      ole 24 July 2012 13: 17
      +3
      the polar,
      100% I agree with you, it is especially outraged that everyone is talking about the privatization of the 90s dishonest, but they somehow forgot about the privatization of RAO UES and Potanin buys TGKs for 3 billion years and the state gives him another 3-odd mrd. for modernization - what is it called?
  19. vladimir64ss
    vladimir64ss 24 July 2012 10: 09
    -10
    The article is sinking bad. The author does not pose questions, but splashes with saliva. The defense industry is a key industry, that you cannot solve issues in one fell swoop, and you cannot finally solve them either.
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 24 July 2012 11: 14
      +6
      Many on the site live where defense enterprises were once located, and then they were transferred to private hands. Therefore, the question is especially no, everyone needs answers to them. And in most cases based on their own experience.
      1. ole
        ole 24 July 2012 13: 22
        +4
        I agree of the three enterprises (1-optical sights, 2-shipyard, 3-dunno destination), not a single one has remained. Niodin private trader is now not able to build a ship hull workshop, there are often mortar units there (cool application). What to talk about?
  20. DUTCH
    DUTCH 24 July 2012 10: 52
    -4
    It seems that the article was written by an alarmist provocateur !!! I don’t understand why so many people blaspheme the Minister of Defense! ??? He is just doing his job! Shook up all the liquid non-liquid assets of the Moscow Region, disheartened the financial service. And finally, most importantly, began to purchase samples of foreign equipment. Understand, finally, unfortunate patriots, well, we can’t do this !!! So you need to buy someone else's study and do it yourself. It's like Hyundai, first bought old Japanese cars and assembled them and right now competes with the Japanese !!! After all, if it weren’t for Serdyukov, would our Soviet generals have decided to buy equipment from a potential enemy.
  21. sxn278619
    sxn278619 24 July 2012 11: 13
    -4
    In the United States, the entire defense industry is private. Makes 80% of the world's best weapons. And the Russian intelligence does not manage to find out their secrets.
    1. Armata
      Armata 24 July 2012 11: 16
      +4
      Therefore, planes of the "Best in the World" type do not really fly, but are too expensive for most countries.
      1. Belarusian
        Belarusian 24 July 2012 12: 19
        -5
        Of course !!!!! Iraq-Yugoslavia-Afghanistan-Libya-they are flightless winked
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 24 July 2012 21: 06
          +3
          Yeah, it was they who removed the F-117 after Yugoslavia .... + the almost complete absence or outdated air defense of these countries - then they are very good. sales flying - as there’s nothing to bring them down ... Don’t tell my horseshoes .... laughing
    2. 12Ural12
      12Ural12 24 July 2012 11: 23
      +4
      In the USA there are a lot of state defense enterprises. According to the mobilization plan, part of private enterprises (main) goes under state administration, part (secondary) operate according to already approved agreements. Our rulers never dreamed
  22. 12Ural12
    12Ural12 24 July 2012 11: 18
    +3
    And Rogozin was bought and recruited. This is no longer our man.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 24 July 2012 11: 40
      +6
      Highly technological things requiring large capital investments (aircraft carriers, strategic bombers, nuclear weapons are never given into the hands of a private trader). So private business in such matters is always in a supporting role.
    2. selbrat
      selbrat 24 July 2012 11: 41
      +4
      Yes, I think so too. There are enemies, more than half are sitting. So there can be no talk of any forward movement.
  23. montemor
    montemor 24 July 2012 13: 21
    +1
    Private traders in the military-industrial complex are like a pike in a pond with white fish, they eat weak animals, and they will not make you run weakly. Take a look at Yaroslav Kuratsin about ten years ago and nobody heard about him. Today, his models are riveted both in Russia and in the states. In Russia, its t-12s are sold for 30 thousand, and in his factory it is less than 250 euros. Take Lobaev with his propellers, when will state enterprises begin to produce at least something similar in terms of performance characteristics? I am against the privatization of the military-industrial complex, state-owned factories should be in state ownership, but competition with private traders should be tougher, on the verge of a foul, and if a private trader produces at least pm, although the cornet is 20% cheaper, without compromising quality, you need to take it from him.
  24. bddrus
    bddrus 24 July 2012 13: 43
    +1
    it's not in vain that it is in the "opinions" section - it's just an opinion! and you shouldn't pray for him. Yes, and tired of nagging! Of course, I would like to quickly a lot and everything and myself! And the author seems not afraid to make calls for a military mutiny? : We expect from the Tula paratroopers to serve the people, not temporary workers. Has their stay in power dragged on? And what good have the paratroopers received from them? is he out of his mind ??? that's who wants us to have Somalia
  25. Russlana
    Russlana 24 July 2012 13: 46
    +5
    Note that the government really rushes from corner to corner, so that it seems like it is impossible to understand what it (the government) wants. There is an interesting book by a British intelligence officer, "The Committee of 300" is called, and so, there one of the moments is described exactly like this: the people simply will not be able to understand what the authorities want. However, as our life shows, the government just wants to sell the country and dump it over the hill or onto the Russky Island.
    Salaries in the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs were raised, but next year they are planning to reduce both of them again. Conclusion - they simply shut their mouths to the most dangerous departments for the election period. There is no money in the budget and will not be, as they call us names - a raw material colony with traitor managers.
    Medicine, education - in full ... opera, and this is the upbringing and maintenance of healthy, physically and spiritually youth, our future.
    They will increase their retirement age - do not go to a fortuneteller, billions of dollars both went abroad and go away. A nation in degradation? The vast majority.
    We look at the results - the government is "tightening the screws" through laws and other things? Definitely. Population, what is the percentage below the poverty line? How much do they have a salary of no more than 10-15 thousand rubles?
    I think that Russia has no options. Putin and others like him clearly do not lead to a bright future, all sorts of "oppositionists" - all the more so. All that remains is to hope for a miracle of God and to live according to our conscience, and not according to our mind, and to bring up our children in the same way.
  26. Denzel13
    Denzel13 24 July 2012 16: 20
    +5
    To the author of the article.
    In many ways, even the suppressors agree with you in many ways, however, from the point of view of the very same officer, the Airborne Forces (albeit retired) will make some adjustments.
    1. It is impossible to say unequivocally that the Tula Division is the most trained and combat-ready in the Airborne Forces.
    2. You shouldn't blame the Airborne Forces for assisting Yeltsin in 1991. I was there and I can definitely say that (at least the units of our division) left Moscow without supporting any of the parties, respectively, and Yeltsin. For which, by the way, when he came to power, he "slaughtered" all the awards for the soldiers and officers of our division for Baku 1990 and the Transnistrian conflict.
  27. strannik595
    strannik595 24 July 2012 18: 13
    -3
    the quintessence of all of the above hysterical cries of vidoplyasov ................ "Someone hopes that V.V. will not be able to hold out until the end of the term. Not inclined to illusions, I am not averse to turning to his common sense: why not go to meet the" contemptible "electorate? Why not ensure a quiet old age and burial in their native land? In the old days, many considered this a sufficient price for political transformation. "......................... the author groans - Volodya go away! --- after Berezovsky and so on ... ...... late dear ........... he came in earnest and for a long time
  28. Nikopol
    Nikopol 24 July 2012 19: 07
    +1
    For that fought for it and ran

    wanted to be the leaders of EdRo and MedvePuta, get it. All the movements on their part about all kinds of reforms there - window dressing. The results are nothing.
    Let me remind you that America & Co. (France, Great Britain, Germany) had a difficult economic situation in the 30s - the "Great Depression". The outcome of this depression is World War II. Now history repeats itself ... The Amers are trying in every way to postpone their default, but in the end it will lead to a good, good-quality war. It's so easy to write off everything ... and the war writes off in one fell swoop.
  29. mind1954
    mind1954 24 July 2012 20: 28
    +1
    Yes, Putin, judging by his words, would love to fall off, because,
    Apparently, he already received or took everything he wanted, but the owners did not let go!

    Secrets will be revealed. Americans are happy to use all our ideas,
    and we, simply, will not be able to realize their ideas, and ours, too !!!
    This is the same as reducing nuclear potential!

    You can expect a lot, talk about a lot, but it would be nice all the same
    decide on the source of all the evils and problems in our country
    and society ?!
    WHERE IN THE COUNTRY A CANCER TUMOR IS EATING AND DESTROYING IT ??? !!!
    WHO IS THESE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY WHICH IS POSSIBLE TO DESTROY IT ?!
    WHAT IS THE SOURCE OF THEIR POWER? AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE FOR
    IN ORDER TO PREVENT THIS AUTHORITY ??? !!!
    HERE THAT SHOULD BE UNDERSTANDED,
    And DO NOT WAIT FOR ANY MANNA OF HEAVENLY FROM SOME GENERALS !!!
  30. Snow
    Snow 24 July 2012 21: 50
    +1
    Only mass executions will save the Motherland! Give me 36-38yy! Stalin knew how to cleanse the infection! Those who have learned so well to "destroy (the old world)" that they have already forgotten how to build. But what economic and industrial potential was suddenly exposed by the beginning of the 40th !! (It was not in vain that Hitler was in a hurry to attack) SO it can be today !!! before it's too late yet!
  31. Botanologist
    Botanologist 24 July 2012 23: 28
    -1
    They wrote a shit.
    When we talk about private owners in Russia, then everyone understands that we are talking about brotherhoods with offshore companies who will saw off on the owner who gave the enterprise.
    When Rogozin speaks about private owners, as well as Medvedev, Chubais, and others, they mean a responsible innovative private sector, ready to fight for a penny in serious areas.

    Alas, we have the first, but not the second. Therefore, the discussion is meaningless.
    To comprehend it, remove the prosecutor’s and judicial mafia, shoot a man of 1000 ministers and their deputies for cuts, leave their children in England, hell with them, but let the money be returned - then after that we’ll try years to organize a private business ready to work for 20-30, rather than sawing.

    The article is a minus. Crap, b and nagging. I got the topic "usepropaloprosrallipolymets.