AEK-971 vs. AK-12: professionals will complete the dispute


From the moment the Ministry of Defense decided to adopt two of the latest models of automatic weapons: AK-12 from the Kalashnikov concern and AEK-971 from the Degtyarev plant, slight confusion reigns both in the camp of expert gunsmiths and among other citizens who are not alien to this topic. What will be next? An army that is accustomed to getting by with “trunks” from one manufacturer will have to relearn, or the principle “the strongest survives” will work, and one of the models will become property stories?


In truth, the above Darwinist postulate is hardly applicable to the subject of this dispute. Since the moment the Ministry of Defense announced a competition for a new machine gun, which will subsequently be included in the Ratnik equipment kit, discussions on the topic of who has the coolest machine: the “Degtyarevs” or “Kalashnikovs” have not subsided for a single day. No bets have just been made. Although everything can be, who knows, people who are addicted ... Nobody could give an unambiguous answer in the framework of the children's “what is good and what is bad”: neither testers, nor a strict selection committee, or, by and large, the developers themselves.

So far, one thing is clear - both are good. According to the first results and impressions, each of the samples has its undoubted advantages, as well as its own characteristics. According to most reviews, AEK-971 is a professional weapon, not intended for the playful hands of green conscripts and the like. But for special forces - both the armed forces and other security forces, he is most likely "the very thing." A simple example, just one: both on the AK-12 and on the AEK-971 you can hang a lot of useful things - sights, target indicators, lights. However, the same collimator mounted on the cover of the AK receiver, due to known design features, will almost certainly have to be shot again after incomplete disassembly of the machine. But with the "carpet" - nothing like that. There, with a completely different principle of disassembly, the bar and sight on it will remain motionless.

Again, in no case should we forget that in the issue of adopting the main small arms for our army, such a question as the efficiency of the future main trunk plays a huge role. Let me give you a historical example: before the Great Patriotic War, it was planned to complete the complete re-equipment of the Red Army on SVT, and the “three-line” was generally discontinued. And, nevertheless, we won the war with the Mosin rifle, although Tokarevskaya on it proved to be excellent. Cause? Not SVT was “bad”, as some wise men say from time to time, and its production was immeasurably more expensive than that of the “three-ruler”. Yes, and in the not too skillful hands of yesterday's peasants, it broke many times more often than the Mosin rifle, where there was practically nothing to break. Well, except for the pine ...

That's the whole arithmetic of war. It is clear that in the event of the general and complete mobilization of the same AK-74 from warehouses, there will be enough for all of us, and even, perhaps, there will remain three China. But in any case, the generals from the Ministry of Defense would be deeply wrong, choosing the finer, more complex and expensive machine gun as the main one. Will AEK-971 become a favorite weapon of harsh commandos? Only time will tell. In order to reach final conclusions, professionals should work with both models of machines in similar conditions. And not in polygons, of course. Then it will become clear.

In the end, do not forget about one more thing. It is possible that the parallel use of these two samples can serve as a solution to another ripening dilemma: 5,45 or 7,62 again? In any case, when using them in special forces, it is unlikely that they will be able to do without the silent shooting function, which provides for the good old caliber. It can be assumed that one of the two machine guns (rather, the less massive AEK-971) will "survive" just in version 7,62.

The dispute is to be completed by professionals: where is the mass and where is the "niche" small arms.
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  1. Glory1974 17 February 2020 08: 50 New
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    we should not forget that in the issue of adopting the main small arms for our army, such a question as the efficiency of the future main trunk plays a huge role.

    At the present stage, the cost of small arms compared to other types of weapons is mere pennies.
    At the beginning of the 2000s, the AK-74 cost about 3 rubles, one shot to the RPG-000 cost 7 rubles.
    Therefore, the most important thing is efficiency. Now any weapon is complex, and even harder to use. Not just to shoot, but to get in any conditions, and even stay alive after that. Because the pros are looking at you too, and they’re ready to take advantage of any mistake.
    Therefore, the battlefield is for professionals only, it doesn’t matter to conscripts or contract soldiers. And each of them must master the machine, no matter how difficult it may seem.
    Not SVT was “bad”, as some wise men say from time to time, and its production was immeasurably more expensive than that of the “three-ruler”. Yes, and in the not too skillful hands of yesterday's peasants, it broke many times more often than the Mosin rifle, where there was practically nothing to break.

    The three-line example is not relevant. We have a long-standing general education, unlike the “yesterday’s peasants” of the 30-40s. If a soldier cannot master some kind of complex machine gun, then you can immediately surrender, because we have both aerospace forces and underwater boats, according to the author, who interestingly manages them?
    Conclusion: if the AEK-971 is more effective than the AK-12, it will be the main infantry weapon. Its complexity and price will not matter. The time of mass armies of illiterate peasants with three rulers has passed.
    1. Boris55 17 February 2020 09: 05 New
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      Quote: glory1974
      We have a long-standing general education, unlike the "yesterday's peasants" of the 30-40s.

      Unified state examination and education are two incompatible quantities. The exam does not imply the release of people with imaginative brains.

      Quote: glory1974
      If the soldier is not able to master some complex machine gun

      The main thing is not its complexity, but reliability and reliability.
      1. mr.ZinGer 17 February 2020 10: 19 New
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        I don’t see a parallel between the EGE and the machine, the machine is not a nuclear calibrator, and general knowledge is enough.
        1. Boris55 17 February 2020 10: 23 New
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          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          I do not see the parallel between the exam and the machine

          Read which message I replied to.
          1. mr.ZinGer 17 February 2020 10: 55 New
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            Well, then I didn’t understand your message ...
            Alas.
        2. Doliva63 17 February 2020 19: 20 New
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          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          I don’t see a parallel between the EGE and the machine, the machine is not a nuclear calibrator, and general knowledge is enough.

          Judging by your literacy, you're not lying laughing
      2. Den717 17 February 2020 11: 49 New
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        Quote: Boris55
        The exam does not imply the release of people with imaginative brains.

        Have you tried to solve this USE? How can you judge what you can’t imagine?
        The exam is just a form of verification of what happened to lay in the head of the student during his training. By the way, when obtaining a driver’s license, a simplified form of the same single exam has been used for decades. No one has a desire to call all drivers "masons" regarding orientation in traffic.
        In essence, I agree with the opinion of the AEK "selection committee" for "special forces", AK - for the masses. The special forces will have a lot of work to solve local "problems. And the masses will probably be involved in a situation of global" disasters. "After two or three days of a" big "war, there will probably still be a combat-ready population who will have a concern to protect what is before the war was the territory of our native country.When we and the United States (and possibly Europe) carry out nuclear strikes against each other and realize that none of us will become a winner, then those who are in crowds will go to our resources, for example to fresh water peacetime we do not even consider in as a threat - Africa with B. Vostok. Yes, and China may survive to some extent. And then we will not be up to high technology. AK from storage depots will become our lifesaver, but as a tank reserve, it may become, let down tanks and from pedestals, because military-industrial complex facilities, energy facilities, and the production of sophisticated equipment are unlikely to be able to work to the required extent, and the population will be more perplexed in eliminating the consequences of a nuclear attack. I do not want to say that it will be so, but there is no guarantee that such a scenario is completely excluded.
        1. mmaxx 17 February 2020 18: 23 New
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          As for the exam, I also think. Let the one who yells about the victims of the exam try to solve. As if in Soviet times, everyone was fucking enlightened. 2/3 ruthless threesomes who do not need anything in life. For 2 years of military service, the desire to read books or the like arose, besides me, in a couple of three people from the company. Plus, a complete knockout of whatever raises a person at least at some level higher.
      3. mmaxx 17 February 2020 18: 19 New
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        Nothing to do with the exam. In the USSR there was no exam. And I knew hardly literate people. And these were not Tajiks. In the SA, the soldier was lowered to a level below the baseboard. Drivers were chasing happiness to record a march in a warrior. And the machinery rotted in the parks. Mastering a military specialty was in last place. Of course, a soldier must be disciplined. But we were made full of morons. This approach was good in the 18-19th century. Now this does not work. And constantly I hear: the machine is too complicated for the draftee, the tank is very difficult for the draftee, well, etc. Only a soldier is engaged in the army with anything. But nobody inculcates interest in the service.
      4. Glory1974 18 February 2020 08: 52 New
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        The exam does not imply the release of people with imaginative brains.

        If you are interested in the exam, you will be surprised.
        Tasks in the exam are divided into several categories.
        1 - choose the correct answer from several suggested ones.
        4 - solve the problem and write the correct answer.
        Therefore, your comment refers only to the exam with assignments of the 1st category, for children who are just starting to learn.
        The main thing is not its complexity, but reliability and reliability.

        The main thing is efficiency. It includes accuracy, and reliability, and reliability. But at the same time, weapons can be technically more difficult. But for our army this is not an obstacle to the adoption of weapons.
    2. basmach 17 February 2020 10: 52 New
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      Absolutely the other way around. It is the time of mass armies. And they will have to fight precisely massive and inexpensive .. Firstly, modern warfare is a supply. No way without it. If during the Second World War the German division consumed 300 tons per day, now it’s 1,5-2 times more. Without a solid front line, you can put an end to the supply. And the second, weapons are made for war and the destruction of the enemy (equipment and manpower) and the more perfect they are, the faster they destroy. But the harder it is, the longer it takes. The industry will not physically have time to cover needs. Well, it will not work to produce 2000 tanks per month (like the T-34). And the cost of any weapon - the more massive one - plays an important role.
      1. Glory1974 18 February 2020 08: 57 New
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        Absolutely the other way around. It is the time of mass armies. And they will have to fight precisely massive and inexpensive.

        Only combat experience shows the opposite. Example 17 of our special forces against 300 barmaley.
        Ours using a high level of training and modern weapons stopped the enemy, armed with a massive and inexpensive. At the same time, no losses were sustained.
        I don’t even speak about the rout of Iraq with crowds of soldiers and masses of good weapons, a superior enemy.
    3. Mikhalych 17 February 2020 12: 59 New
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      The time of mass armies of illiterate peasants with three rulers has passed.

      And gouging? Russian champion!
      fellow
    4. vkl.47 18 February 2020 00: 32 New
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      Well, Izhevsk has an AK-107 with a balancer. We could make a light machine gun and a Marxman vinar according to this scheme. Something to replace with polymers would not be so heavy.
    5. Yellow bubble 23 February 2020 17: 48 New
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      Right.
  2. Dmitry Makarov 17 February 2020 08: 52 New
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    The article is nothing - transfusion from empty to empty.
  3. Pessimist22 17 February 2020 09: 04 New
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    I used the AK74m back in 1995, (for the first time) then it was considered new and I really liked it, low-pulse, accurate, with a rush under the PSO, it even seemed to me that it was more accurate with it than with the AKS 74.
  4. Yrec 17 February 2020 09: 21 New
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    At the moment, it doesn’t matter which automatic machine is better, AEK or AK. The main thing is that the 5,45 / 7,62 ammunition used by them has exhausted its capabilities to overcome modern NIB. In the not-too-distant future, when it becomes quite obvious from the results of some conflict, where the opposing parties will be all in the NIB, it will be painfully painful. In emergency mode, you have to collective farm the new ammunition and weapons to it. In the words of the Supreme Council: this has never happened - and here again!
  5. Mikhail3 17 February 2020 09: 23 New
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    We will also see something else. Until recently, weapons factories were not very interesting to our elite. Not enough money, many checking ... But as the money went to the army, so did the raiders. In general, then, to all those who make decisions, they do not care deeply about the quality of weapons. Question in LITTLE. So get ready for a real vinigret from inappropriate weapons, equipment, etc. etc. And then "win" to put it mildly not the best, but the cheapest for the biggest money ...
  6. V.I.P. 17 February 2020 09: 30 New
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    Waste of money. How do they surpass AK 74 and by how much? Take the Ak 74, put on it the butt and the cover of the receiver from the FAB Defense, a normal pistol grip (with the possibility of adjusting to the size of the brush with the replacement of the pads), a forearm with pikantini, an adjustable shutter frame and compare with Ak12 and AEK. And look who will win the tender)))) .. .... And in the future it will be the same as with the 5,45 caliber. They will look at the amers with their new caliber and cartridge, the new Heckler Koch (effective fire 600m) instead of ar-ok and m-ok, and the next catch-up will start with a new machine gun and cartridge. ... And this is a simple drank budget. The USSR would not have accepted such weapons. No gain in performance. Effective fire as it was at 350 m remained and armor penetration is the same ....
    1. God save the king 17 February 2020 12: 47 New
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      Take the Ak 74, put on it the butt and the cover of the receiver from the FAB Defense, a normal pistol grip (with the possibility of adjusting to the size of the brush with changing pads), a forearm with picantini, an adjustable bolt frame
      and get AK12. It’s more profitable to immediately supply a new machine with a kit immediately than to pump junk.
      They will look at the amers with their new caliber and cartridge, the new Heckler Koch (effective fire 600m)
      amers have everything the same as ours. The main small arms of the army are automatic rifles under an intermediate cartridge 5,56 (which hit everything at the same 400 meters), which are complemented by semi-automatic carbines under the rifle cartridge (various analogues of the SVD)
      The USSR would not have accepted such weapons. No gain in performance.
      What was the increase between AKM and AKMS, or AK-74 and AK-74m? And they did.
      1. V.I.P. 17 February 2020 15: 40 New
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        Ak-74 instead of AK: leche ammunition weight - you can take more with you, low-pulse cartridge 5,45-less recoil, accuracy of the burst is higher due to less withdrawal of the barrel, the range of a direct shot is higher. It was due to this that they accepted ... ... the Americans are transferring the army to the new HK-416 rifle in caliber 6,8 ... They are also changing the 92 Beretta pistol. on a zig-sauer .... The forces of special operations also choose a machine gun zig-Sauer 338 round (silencer and effective fire-2500 m !!!! And this is not an aiming range! Namely, effective fire)
        1. God save the king 17 February 2020 16: 11 New
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          Ak-74 instead of AK
          You want to say that they did not have modifications adopted for service?
          Americans transfer the army to a new rifle HK-416 in caliber 6,8
          The Americans are not transferring anything; among the various militarized units, they always had a fight with ammunition and ammunition. While fighting in the desert and mountains, saturate the troops with long-range weapons, in the jungle they actively use submachine guns in general. But if some army does not have the ability to produce ten sets of weapons for each soldier, then 5, 56 and 5,45 will for a long time be the basis of small arms.
      2. Doliva63 17 February 2020 19: 29 New
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        Quote: God save the King
        Take the Ak 74, put on it the butt and the cover of the receiver from the FAB Defense, a normal pistol grip (with the possibility of adjusting to the size of the brush with changing pads), a forearm with picantini, an adjustable bolt frame
        and get AK12. It’s more profitable to immediately supply a new machine with a kit immediately than to pump junk.
        They will look at the amers with their new caliber and cartridge, the new Heckler Koch (effective fire 600m)
        amers have everything the same as ours. The main small arms of the army are automatic rifles under an intermediate cartridge 5,56 (which hit everything at the same 400 meters), which are complemented by semi-automatic carbines under the rifle cartridge (various analogues of the SVD)
        The USSR would not have accepted such weapons. No gain in performance.
        What was the increase between AKM and AKMS, or AK-74 and AK-74m? And they did.

        I did not understand about AKM and AKMS. This is the same thing for different users. What could be “between” them? They differ only in weight a bit, sort of.
        1. God save the king 17 February 2020 19: 51 New
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          I did not understand about AKM and AKMS ... They differ only in weight a bit, sort of.
          That's exactly how the AK-12 differs from the AK-74m differs only in a plastic body kit, a simplified gas pipe and a fashionable shutter cover. Otherwise, it’s the same old man who is familiar to every “excellent student” of N13.
          1. Doliva63 18 February 2020 17: 47 New
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            Quote: God save the King
            I did not understand about AKM and AKMS ... They differ only in weight a bit, sort of.
            That's exactly how the AK-12 differs from the AK-74m differs only in a plastic body kit, a simplified gas pipe and a fashionable shutter cover. Otherwise, it’s the same old man who is familiar to every “excellent student” of N13.

            Hm. Yes, AKMS and AKM are no different (I don’t think the butt, because it does not affect TX). Just, apparently, they did not give a very good example. And so, yes, I do not argue.
  7. Eug
    Eug 17 February 2020 09: 45 New
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    I did not often come across a pro, but those with whom I had occasion to communicate, reliability was put in the first place among the qualities of small arms. Everything else, according to them, can be taken into account "in the process" - both accuracy and quick readiness for firing, while reliability can be slightly improved only by regular cleaning, for which often there is neither time nor effort. And they praised the quiet sound when shooting.
  8. Strashila 17 February 2020 09: 54 New
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    "the dispute will be completed by professionals", a question mark should be put here. Comparison data has been going on over the past decades. The AKA family has always had an opponent in competitions, but the economy has always decided everything, for which it is necessary to pay more for a gain in accuracy of a couple of percent.
    There is one postulate, the accuracy of the weapon determines the ammunition and the barrel, everything depends on these two components.
    If a soldier does not learn how to shoot, you give him at least a deafness, even a super-super-barrel, the effect will be one, zero.
  9. Charik 17 February 2020 10: 00 New
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    would have taken, yes the video stuck about both machines
    1. mark1 17 February 2020 10: 19 New
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      And what would you like to see there?
      1. Charik 17 February 2020 22: 28 New
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        specialist comparison
  10. Sahalinets 17 February 2020 10: 02 New
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    I still do not understand what kind of "complexity" of the machine can we talk about in our time? It was at 41 in the army that illiterate peasants were called up who did not see anything more difficult than plows. But now what is it all about?
    1. Salty 17 February 2020 10: 09 New
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      Quote: Sahalinets
      now what is it all about?

      About the cross-eyed, who did not even see the plows, and are able to break even a bolt by 24, and not just some AEK.
      1. mmaxx 17 February 2020 18: 27 New
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        There are enough skew-armed. But here I read about the royal army. The soldiers, when the Mosin rifle was introduced into the troops, were very unhappy with her. Berdanka was more accurate, and they are for the exact. shooting increase in money received. So they had some interest from the service. And they were interested in doing something better.
    2. PSih2097 17 February 2020 22: 24 New
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      Quote: Sahalinets
      But now what is it all about?

      oh believe me, there are individuals who will give odds to illiterate peasants 41 years old that mother don’t grieve ...
  11. Sether 17 February 2020 10: 15 New
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    Why do not question the opinions of soldiers who tested both machines? After all, it’s for them to go into battle and it must be their choice with which to go into battle in order to win. Why is it cheaper and not that better and more efficient? What is the price of victory?
  12. Operator 17 February 2020 10: 38 New
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    Since the beginning of this year, TsNIITochmash, on instructions from the RF Ministry of Defense, has been implementing the Sotnik comprehensive program to create promising models of small arms and their ammunition (a domestic analogue of NGSW).

    Therefore, the AK-12 and AEK-971 - FSO laughing
  13. pogis 17 February 2020 11: 39 New
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    AKMS, AK-74, AK-74M, AN-94, AK-12, AEK-971,6 machine guns in service, which is still a rich country.
    1. PSih2097 17 February 2020 22: 30 New
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      Quote: pogis
      AKMS, AK-74, AK-74M, AN-94, AK-12, AEK-971,6 machine guns in service, which is still a rich country.

      Shaft, Thunderstorm, Whirlwind, ADS / APS, ASH, AEK 973 ...
  14. Ingenegr 17 February 2020 12: 55 New
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    The choice between “very bad” and “disgusting” cannot be good or bad.
  15. Izotovp 17 February 2020 13: 05 New
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    In the dispute of these two machines, AM-17 with a barrel of normal length will win. Good weight, ergonomics, reliability and so on ...))
  16. Amateur 17 February 2020 13: 08 New
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    AN-94 "Abakan" was also taken into service. And where is he now?
    1. PSih2097 17 February 2020 22: 25 New
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      in warehouses, and in the arms of some parts.
  17. would 17 February 2020 14: 30 New
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    And again, I see a constant mistake of almost all the articles and which does not at all fit with the slogan "the dispute will be completed by professionals." You do not need to be a professional to know that the AEK971 has never participated in comparative tests with the AK12 and no one even thinks to compare them. Because the A545 participated in the tests! Again! A545, not AEK971!

    In any case, when using them in special forces, it is unlikely that they will be able to do without the silent shooting function, which provides for the good old caliber


    The special forces had a long time ago VSS Vintorez and his descendants under 9x39, which in this matter definitely wins 7.62.
    1. Doliva63 17 February 2020 19: 33 New
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      Quote: rait
      And again, I see a constant mistake of almost all the articles and which does not at all fit with the slogan "the dispute will be completed by professionals." You do not need to be a professional to know that the AEK971 has never participated in comparative tests with the AK12 and no one even thinks to compare them. Because the A545 participated in the tests! Again! A545, not AEK971!

      In any case, when using them in special forces, it is unlikely that they will be able to do without the silent shooting function, which provides for the good old caliber


      The special forces had a long time ago VSS Vintorez and his descendants under 9x39, which in this matter definitely wins 7.62.

      What Vintorez outperforms AKMSN2, for example?
      1. would 17 February 2020 21: 19 New
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        First of all, in three things that come from the fact that the weapon cartridge complex is specially designed as a sniper silent weapon.

        1. There is no clang from the operation of automation and the silencer more effectively dampens the sound of a shot. Unlike AKM with a silencer and US ammunition, Vintorez cartridges can really be attributed to silent weapons.
        2. At 9x39, the corresponding nomenclature of cartridges including with cartridges allowing to hit targets protected by body armor of 2-3 classes.
        3. Accuracy corresponds to sniper weapons. Dry information from the Internet suggests that the accuracy of the screw cutter is twice as high as that of AKMSN2.

        Actually, there couldn’t be otherwise because Vintorez and the 9x39 cartridge were created as a replacement for the recognized unsuccessful use of the AKM (that is, of itself and its modifications) with a silencer and cartridges of reduced speed.
        1. prodi 18 February 2020 14: 29 New
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          - you are right about the smaller clang of automation in special weapons (screw-cutter shaft), but a design like PSB-1 ​​dampens sound more efficiently than chamber ones (screw-cutter shaft)
          - for special operations on its territory, the concept of special weapons (screw-cutter shaft) is acceptable, but for reconnaissance groups in the enemy rear, it’s not at all, because in a possible normal battle, with limited forces it’s a disarmament
        2. Doliva63 18 February 2020 18: 10 New
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          Quote: rait
          First of all, in three things that come from the fact that the weapon cartridge complex is specially designed as a sniper silent weapon.

          1. There is no clang from the operation of automation and the silencer more effectively dampens the sound of a shot. Unlike AKM with a silencer and US ammunition, Vintorez cartridges can really be attributed to silent weapons.
          2. At 9x39, the corresponding nomenclature of cartridges including with cartridges allowing to hit targets protected by body armor of 2-3 classes.
          3. Accuracy corresponds to sniper weapons. Dry information from the Internet suggests that the accuracy of the screw cutter is twice as high as that of AKMSN2.

          Actually, there couldn’t be otherwise because Vintorez and the 9x39 cartridge were created as a replacement for the recognized unsuccessful use of the AKM (that is, of itself and its modifications) with a silencer and cartridges of reduced speed.

          You are simply not in the subject. Example. Staff group SpN. There are no snipers, there are scouts. A sniper, if needed, is attached. Kohl Vintorez is a replacement for AKMS, which means that one of the scouts (and this is the senior scouts, castle groups, team groups) will receive this miracle and, if anything, will not be able to fully participate in a likely battle. AKMS is another matter - removed PBS, changed the store - and you are a full-fledged warrior.
          It’s not necessary to pierce any bullet-proof vests for the army SPN, and you can safely shoot in the head at the range of Vintorez’s firing from a machine gun - no bulletproof vest will save.
          And the last - the "clank of automation" will not help anyone who was shot from a range of up to 100 m.
          Not a toy for the army.
          1. would 19 February 2020 14: 40 New
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            First, let's start with the fact that you do not understand the specifics of the application of BCC and for what tasks it was created at all and why it is used.

            Kohl Vintorez is a replacement for AKMS, which means that one of the scouts (and this is the senior scouts, castle groups, team groups) will receive this miracle and, if anything, will not be able to fully participate in a likely battle. AKMS is another matter - removed PBS, changed the store - and you are a full-fledged warrior.


            As soon as the group opens fire from AKMS without PBS, the operation is clearly failed. If you are not in the know, then BCC is used in operations that require silent execution, that is, you cannot shoot at them from AKMS even with PBS. Without PBS and even more so. It would be possible no BCC would have created.

            Well and yes, the special forces have repeatedly participated in a full-fledged battle using BCC or AS. The experience of using this weapon in the Chechen wars is well described and is even available in open sources. Special Forces is assessed as strictly and strictly positive.

            It’s not necessary to pierce any bulletproof vests for the Army Special Forces, but you can safely use the machine gun to range Vintorez shoot in the head - no body armor will save.


            Then immediately everything became clear. How do you imagine shooting at the head, for example, at a fast moving target? So what would you know - even from a real sniper rifle with a bullet that is faster than sound, this is an extremely non-trivial task. Frankly, this is an indicator of skill and is far from being carried out by infantry snipers. Even 200-300 meters for which BCC is designed. And at 9x39 the bullet is subsonic.

            And finally

            There are no snipers, there are scouts.


            Is it like a “man in the subject” could confuse a sniper and a sniper rifle? If you do not know, then a sniper is a post, and a sniper rifle is a weapon. And a sniper rifle can be armed not only with a sniper, but with the same scout.

            And the last - the "clank of automation" will not help anyone who was shot from a range of up to 100 m.


            And where does it work for you individually? If you aren’t in the know, then at least in the army they are fighting in the military unit, 9 people have motorized riflemen. And if nothing already helps one, then the rest will be able to take cover, get into radio communications and report an attack, using a loud clang to determine the approximate location of the shooter and start practicing. As additional opportunities for the group, mines may start to fly over their heads, or even a Grad will drop out or cover it with a Hurricane.

            I’m already silent about the example of destroying the sentry (or destroying the fuse of a grenade put on a non-removable tool, by the way the real case) in the middle of a quiet night when the rest of the perimeter will immediately hear an extremely characteristic clang and there will be an alarm when the group will be destroyed.

            You should not consider yourself smarter than the existing special units and all the more smarter than the KGB and the GRU of the USSR, by order of which the BCC was created. And one of the requirements was just the same defeat of targets in bulletproof vests. And it was precisely with them that the Silence and Canary complexes were rated as unsuitable.
            1. would 19 February 2020 14: 56 New
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              It would be possible no BCC would have created.


              And a knife shooting a scout by the way, too.
            2. Doliva63 19 February 2020 21: 29 New
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              Quote: rait
              First, let's start with the fact that you do not understand the specifics of the application of BCC and for what tasks it was created at all and why it is used.

              Kohl Vintorez is a replacement for AKMS, which means that one of the scouts (and this is the senior scouts, castle groups, team groups) will receive this miracle and, if anything, will not be able to fully participate in a likely battle. AKMS is another matter - removed PBS, changed the store - and you are a full-fledged warrior.


              As soon as the group opens fire from AKMS without PBS, the operation is clearly failed. If you are not in the know, then BCC is used in operations that require silent execution, that is, you cannot shoot at them from AKMS even with PBS. Without PBS and even more so. It would be possible no BCC would have created.

              Well and yes, the special forces have repeatedly participated in a full-fledged battle using BCC or AS. The experience of using this weapon in the Chechen wars is well described and is even available in open sources. Special Forces is assessed as strictly and strictly positive.

              It’s not necessary to pierce any bulletproof vests for the Army Special Forces, but you can safely use the machine gun to range Vintorez shoot in the head - no body armor will save.


              Then immediately everything became clear. How do you imagine shooting at the head, for example, at a fast moving target? So what would you know - even from a real sniper rifle with a bullet that is faster than sound, this is an extremely non-trivial task. Frankly, this is an indicator of skill and is far from being carried out by infantry snipers. Even 200-300 meters for which BCC is designed. And at 9x39 the bullet is subsonic.

              And finally

              There are no snipers, there are scouts.


              Is it like a “man in the subject” could confuse a sniper and a sniper rifle? If you do not know, then a sniper is a post, and a sniper rifle is a weapon. And a sniper rifle can be armed not only with a sniper, but with the same scout.

              And the last - the "clank of automation" will not help anyone who was shot from a range of up to 100 m.


              And where does it work for you individually? If you aren’t in the know, then at least in the army they are fighting in the military unit, 9 people have motorized riflemen. And if nothing already helps one, then the rest will be able to take cover, get into radio communications and report an attack, using a loud clang to determine the approximate location of the shooter and start practicing. As additional opportunities for the group, mines may start to fly over their heads, or even a Grad will drop out or cover it with a Hurricane.

              I’m already silent about the example of destroying the sentry (or destroying the fuse of a grenade put on a non-removable tool, by the way the real case) in the middle of a quiet night when the rest of the perimeter will immediately hear an extremely characteristic clang and there will be an alarm when the group will be destroyed.

              You should not consider yourself smarter than the existing special units and all the more smarter than the KGB and the GRU of the USSR, by order of which the BCC was created. And one of the requirements was just the same defeat of targets in bulletproof vests. And it was precisely with them that the Silence and Canary complexes were rated as unsuitable.

              If you yourself have not served in the Special Forces / intelligence, how can you reason what is needed and what is not? According to the media? Not serious. In one I agree - the group is provided with weapons, taking into account a specific task. And then, yes, one of the scouts in addition to their weapons will receive BCC, if necessary. But this is not a replacement for AKMS, agree.
              1. would 20 February 2020 02: 59 New
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                If you yourself have not served in the Special Forces / intelligence, how can you reason what is needed and what is not? According to the media? Not serious


                So this question concerns you. Because SPNs were massively transferred to BCC and AC, and for AKMS there are many places where even US cartridges are not left and they themselves are not written off just because they did not work out their resource.

                Therefore, I say that the special forces know better than you what is there and where you need it. The reasons are again described more than once by the fighters themselves, but here you come and claim that everything is wrong. Why? Because it’s wrong. I understand that you are not considering objective data.

                And then, yes, one of the scouts in addition to their weapons will receive BCC, if necessary.


                All right. That's just "your weapon" will be nothing more than one of the modifications of the AK-74, not AKMS. The reasons for this are again prosaic and widely known.
  18. beeper 17 February 2020 15: 19 New
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    It can be assumed that one of the two machine guns (rather, the less massive AEK-971) will "survive" just in version 7,62.

    Koksharov machine gun "in the variant" of 7,62 mm caliber is designated AEK-973!
    But in the competition "Warrior", according to the results of which the decision was made to adopt the Kovrov machine gun, its modifications A-545 (for caliber 5,45 mm) -grau index 6P67 and A-762 (7,62 mm) -6P68 participated . Differing in appearance (including from the presented photo to the Article, although the A-545 is clearly described in the author's text!) And in the layout from AEK-971 and AEK-973 with a cover made integrally with the top of the receiver and Picatinny rail , which allows the optical sights to be fixedly fixed, and a handle with a USM box, which leans down on the hinge, and the bolt group was removed after removing the recoil pad of the receiver.
    As in my opinion, the Kovrov weapons designers should still work and work with this machine, both in terms of manufacturability and reliability of the design, and rejection of explicit design stereotypes-an attempt to drag into their design representations of the late 60s and early 70s when it was created Konstantinov's prototype machine with balanced automation, under the name SA-006, participated in the 1974 competition (in which the AK-74 prototype was recognized as the winner)!
    In principle, the Kovrovites, if they look at their design with an open mind, "with a fresh eye", they will be able to see ways to solve the problematic nodes of their "machine" and try rationally solve them!. After all, the idea was good, its constructive design let us down, so far not at the proper height and is in the decades-long “creation process”, without a substantial “evolution” 'for almost half a century!
    Or, for Kovrov’s weapons designers, the "process" itself is more important, and not the end result, have their design ego satisfied this "product of life" ??! winked
    There is a handicap, because their Izhevsk rivals with AK-15 (12) have a clear path to a dead end; it’s already clearly visible that, originally laid by Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov and his associates, the basics of the plan and the main ways of constructing the “AK concept” were “safely” forgotten "and" cross-checked "by thoughtless and superficial" design improvements "- well, these Izhevsk Kalashnikov gunsmiths don’t know at all the history of the AK-47 (a remark for some" experts "who like to tell that such an AK-47 assault rifle is supposedly no, so AK-47 the Author himself called it, and not only named it in the first military instructions under the heading "secretly", and they know this "literary name" around the world!) and its "ideology" ?! How can they, without knowing and not taking into account previous experience, create good weapons designs of the future ?! smile
    From the memories of MTK:
    But General Blagonravov, collecting the sample, continued the interrupted conversation. He advised me read as much as possible, study everything related to the construction of weapons, learn to understand both Russian and foreign samples well: “you need to know what has been done in this area before you: without knowing the old, you won’t make a good new”!


    In the caliber of 7,62 mm, the Kovrov machine gun (in the current incarnation, without a cardinal redesign of the structure, together with a revision of the principles of automation), by a combination of indicators, will certainly lose to the simpler and more reliable AK-15 (12)! But AEK-971 and AEK-973 also have direct Izhevsk rivals AK-107 and AK-108, also with balanced automation! winked
    IMHO
  19. beeper 17 February 2020 17: 08 New
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    By the way, according to the example with the SVT rifle!
    Gunpowder of war time (Lend-Lease delivery, with completely different diagrams of pressure of powder gases during combustion) and surrogate wartime cartridges by no means contributed to the reliable operation of LIGHT! As its extremely lightweight F.V. Tokarev (at the request of the ArtKom pre-war commission) design SVT-40, with a priori weakened sections of parts (designed for the manufacture of alloy steel with appropriate heat treatment, highly skilled machining "in narrow tolerances, did not contribute to it) "and fitting fittings, and during the war, made by hastily trained workers from various ersatz substitutes, according to extended tolerances and worn tools, with rough surface treatment even real details!).
    After all, the SVT (and its automatic version-AVT) were produced at one of the evacuated weapons factories almost until the very end of the war — did the “high cost” prevent this ?!

    The "Mosinka" was a manual reloading and its "functionality" depended little on the quality of surrogate cartridges and gunpowder-substitutes (including foreign ones) of military manufacture, just like her, when creating the original 1891 (predecessor "shortened for" infantry rifle shortened) "1891/30 model rifles)", the design is from ersatz materials and wartime production quality!
    Therefore, it was in the priority of mass production, and not because of "yesterday's peasants (no need to recklessly sing along to" perestroika songs "- the Soviet collective farmer called up to the Red Army was, for the most part, technically literate, not the one that under tsarism, even our enemies and other ill-wishers recognized this!) ", not to mention the urban proletariat, factory and factory workers, the youth, completely covered by OSOAVIAHIM, and the technical intelligentsia! winked
    1. IS-80_RVGK2 17 February 2020 20: 08 New
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      Quote: pishchak
      the Soviet collective farmer drafted into the Red Army was, for the most part, technically competent

      Yeah, and he also understood the theory of groups, quantum physics and read Hegel in the original.
      1. beeper 17 February 2020 21: 30 New
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        hi I appreciate the humor, but in yours, dear aka IS-80_RVGK2, "quantum (I completely admit reading, with separate inquisitive peasant minds, in the village hut-reading room for brochures with" recommended by the party for acquaintance "Hegel's selected works, absolutely something, but" ideological the question "the Bolshevik party never let it go, especially as there was a significant fund of" confiscation ", in addition to literature abundantly published by the" new government ", including from the libraries of local landowners, and many of them, and their servants, were sufficiently educated people with a wide range naughty and versatile knowledge! yes ) "context looks like" juggling ", no ?! smile

        Although, at the same time, in the 20-30s, the famous theorist of interplanetary flights-Kondratyuk worked as the head of the village flour mill (his real name was forgotten to me and is now spinning in my head to be remembered later, but right now I will not recall it from memory request ), on the basis of a small-size brochure published in the 20s with theoretical calculations of which, in the 60s, Americans built their flight to the moon!
        And Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, an ordinary provincial teacher, too, for the very same, inquisitive minds, peasant and city guys over whom you are so ironically stressed (?), In an accessible form set out his "cosmic theories"!

        So, not everything was so sad with technical literacy in the pre-war USSR, as any “liberda” sang and sang to us, and thoughtlessly “mournful songs are relayed” by individuals who do not have critical thinking, who do not seek (independently extracting and analyzing the knowledge gained) to expand their horizons and have your own opinion!

        My plus to you, dear aka IS-80_RVGK2, for your explicit attempt at "black humor" and the demonstrated inquisitiveness of the mind (as well as knowledge of scientific terminology good ), but also a minus for the passing "mockery" and disbelief in the technical talents of ordinary peasant guys (and I, though an excellent mechanical engineer, are also peasant roots from rural self-made agronomists, paramedics, teachers, joiners and carpenters , working brainy peasants (with their own hands, according to their own understanding, building both houses with the necessary utensils and a variety of rural equipment, and windmills with completely wooden mechanisms!), which are still remembered with good kindness in my native lands in the Ukrainian South - ostoke, historic New Russia! yes ), therefore, "plus to minus", in the end I do not put either plus or minus, do not blame me! No offense! wink
        1. IS-80_RVGK2 17 February 2020 21: 39 New
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          Do you understand how many years there were from the victory in civil to the beginning of World War II? 20 years. Can you imagine what it is in those conditions to raise technical literacy to the required level? What they tried and did what they could was understandable. But 20 years is too little.
          1. beeper 17 February 2020 22: 11 New
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            hi Of course I understand! 20 years is a lot, this is a whole generation! Especially if you don’t waste time, but learn and build!
            My dad was one of those technically literate, mind-searching, pre-war peasant guys who grew up on the Don, and then, after the start of the dispossession, dispossession, the whole family moved to the mining town of Stalin (present-day Donetsk).
            From a simple infantryman, he became an artilleryman, and his younger brother, my uncle Vanya from the marine, by the end of the war became a tank driver!
            Mom’s uncle Ivan, who died near Brno on May 10, 1945, just finished a village school before the war and he also knew the technique very well, could independently understand the design and repair any mechanism, including a sewing machine.
            Mom's uncle Petka, who died in 1937, studied only a few classes of a rural school, and then persistently engaged in self-education, mastered many technical specialties and worked as a mine electrician ...
            So with the technical literacy of these peasant guys there was complete order and Dad did not complain that many of his dead pre-war peers were technically illiterate!
            On the contrary, in rural and then in evening school for working youth, before the war my father received such thorough (and most importantly applied!) Knowledge of physics and mathematics as I, who studied under "developed socialism" in an "advanced" high school were just amazing!
            So, it is not for nothing that we surpassed the Germans (including in the production and operation of various equipment!) And naturally won! yes
            1. IS-80_RVGK2 19 February 2020 09: 53 New
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              The experience of your relatives, friends, acquaintances is a private experience of relatives, friends, acquaintances. And besides the level of technical literacy, there are still various other factors.
              1. beeper 19 February 2020 13: 36 New
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                hi I am glad that you understood and acknowledged it, from me the Huge Plus! good
                Precisely, about these various other factorsreally predetermined in wartime, the unreliability of the self-loading function of a Tokarev rifle (and consequently the loss of its "self-loading advantage" over the simpler, in all respects, and reliable Mosin rifle of the 1891/30 type, and carbines based on it), I wrote in the first part of my comment about "example of CBT." yes
  20. John22 17 February 2020 20: 22 New
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    AEK is more complicated than AK in 3 parts. What design complexity can we talk about? This is not electronics with invisible processes. Everything can be felt.
  21. el_soldado 18 February 2020 15: 10 New
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    what a fabulous delirium, from beginning to end
    a few examples:
    1. 6P67 and 6P68 automatic rifles recommended for use - this is NOT AEK-971. Its development. but not him.
    2. AK-12 has already been ordered 150 thousand units, deliveries are being made to the troops. Has anyone heard of orders for 6P67, their deliveries?
    3. on the AK-12, even the optics after assembly-disassembly does not require re-shooting, it was tested on several civilian TR-3s, and even the military would have failed otherwise
    4. About the problems of CBT, the author is also clearly not up to date at all.

    fi so be
  22. maxxx 18 February 2020 15: 36 New
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    for those who are interested in what kind of machine, it was meant to replace the AK (and by the way quite good)

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/АН-94
  23. Nasty 18 February 2020 19: 19 New
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    Win AK-74M and PM.
  24. IL-64 22 February 2020 23: 33 New
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    Interestingly, the author with his own hands felt the AK-12? In particular, its receiver cover? Where does the conclusion come from that after incomplete disassembly the optics will have to be re-shoot? According to the recollections of military service or the lessons of the NVP? Are government perceptions idiots involved? Designers are they too?
    I quote:
    "The technical task of the cover of the AK-12 receiver is to increase the operational characteristics of small arms.
    The technical result is to ensure a stable position of the cover and, accordingly, the sight mounted on the bar of the cover, when firing and a uniform position of the cover after removal and subsequent installation.
    The problem is achieved in that in small arms, the lid is fixed to the receiver:
    - in the front part - a transversely shifting latch interacting with the hole in the protrusion of the lid and the hole in the block fixed relative to the receiver;
    - in the rear part - a spring-loaded roller, with the possibility of longitudinal movement of the latter in the grooves of the lid, interacting with a prismatic groove made in the protrusions on the butt plate of the receiver.
    The latch limits all movement of the cover except rotation.
    The spring-loaded roller self-installs in the prismatic groove of the back plate, choosing all possible backlash, and interacting with the faces of the grooves of the cover, provides a stable return to the original position of the cover when firing, as well as a uniform position of the cover after removal and subsequent installation. "
    Taken from here (there is still a lot of interesting things, including drawings with cuts. True, you must be able to read the drawings)
    http://www.ak-info.ru/joomla/index.php/aaka/32-ak5pokolenie/250-ak12techabout
  25. Yellow bubble 23 February 2020 18: 10 New
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    Kalashnikov assault rifle is not bad, but do not forget that you always need an alternative. Kalashnikov crushed excellent designers with his authority and blat. In the Kremlin, one machine gun Nikonov arr. 58-59 years what is it worth! The machine gun was already at the conveyor, when Kalashnikov came to the competition without a machine gun, and two years later the machine gun, rejected by the troops, defeated the Kremlin, and the authority of Kalashnikov did his job. The YPC machine gun Kalashnikov finished 30 years and he is the best in the world! And if they brought the machine gun Nikonov? AEK 971 and other excellent works should live in parallel with Kalash.