Why did the Americans and the British destroy Dresden

Why did the Americans and the British destroy Dresden
View from the city hall of Dresden on the ruins of the city after the Anglo-American bombing in February 1945. Right sculpture by August Schreitmüller "Welcome"


75 years ago, February 13-15, 1945, Anglo-American aviation dealt a terrible blow to Dresden. Tens of thousands of people died, the ancient cultural center of Germany was wiped off the face of the earth.

The monstrous cynicism of the West


Scientific Director of the Russian Military Historical (RVIO) Society Mikhail Myagkov saidthat the bombing of Dresden became "a manifestation of monstrous cynicism for the sake of intimidation of the Soviet Union." At the same time, the mass death of the civilian population was not worried by the Allied command.

As the scientific director of RVIO notes, the bombing of Dresden and other German cities, which were supposed to enter the Soviet zone of occupation after the war, was carried out not so much for military purposes (destruction of military facilities, damage to the enemy’s army), but rather “to show the Soviet Union that would threaten the Red Army if a conflict suddenly arose now between the Western countries and the USSR. " So, the Royal Air Force memorandum, with which the British pilots were acquainted on the night before the attack (February 13, 1945), reported:

"The purpose of the attack is to strike the enemy where he feels it most of all, behind the partially collapsed front ... and at the same time show the Russians when they arrive in the city, which the Royal Air Force is capable of."


The result was consistent: tens of thousands of civilians were killed (up to 200 thousand people); one of the most beautiful cities in Europe, "Florence on the Elbe", a culturalhistorical the center of Germany and Europe was destroyed, 80% of city buildings were destroyed, the restoration process of the city center took 40 years.

At the same time, Dresden was bombed two days after the end of the conference of the anti-Hitler coalition in Crimea. Where the "Big Three" agreed on the fate of post-war Germany and Europe. And almost immediately, London and Washington decided to show the USSR their air power - how the West is able only with the help of air strikes to erase entire cities and industrial areas from the face of the planet. In the future, Western aviation continued to strike at the cultural and historical centers of Germany, the cities of Japan. The West delivered its first atomic strikes against Japan. They did not have a clear military purpose. That is, they did not bring the end of the war closer. But they showed Moscow the future fate of Russian cities if the Soviet leadership was stubborn.

All this was within the framework of the plan of the new world war - the West against the USSR. Already in the spring of 1945, on the instructions of Churchill, they prepared a plan "The Unthinkable" - a plan of war against the USSR. True, Operation "The Unthinkable" remained on paper. The Anglo-Saxons did not decide on a direct war with the Russians. They were afraid to attack the USSR. The Russian army at that time possessed such military power and morale that it could reach the English Channel and the Atlantic with one jerk and liberate all of Europe.


Aerial view of the ruins of Dresden


German police collect and burn the bodies of those killed in Altmarkt after the Allied air raid on Dresden

Contactless War


Among the great powers, two types can be distinguished: land and sea. England and the USA are classic maritime powers belonging to the Atlantic civilization. Germany and Russia are classic land powers. Russians and Germans prefer to beat the enemy on land, to meet and attack his forehead. These are the best warriors in the world. Japan, despite the maritime traditions (Russians have them, remember the Varangians, Novgorodians and Pomors), is nevertheless closer to the land powers. Samurai prefer to decide on land. Although the sea also fight well.

Hence the strategy of wars of naval powers. Anglo-Saxons are classic pirates, sea robbers. They prefer contactless wars. He came, saw, quickly looted, burned and fled until the locals woke up and beat. They look for weaknesses, prefer not to beat head on head, do not hold a blow and quickly lose their spirit with high losses. In some cases, Russians are ready to die completely, but gain time, opportunities for others. The Germans and Japanese are also prepared for high losses for the sake of the emperor (Kaiser, Fuhrer), homeland and honor.

With fleet the British created a world empire. They used the weaknesses of other countries, peoples and tribes. They divided, pitted and dominated. Robbed the entire planet. The Americans created the same type of empire. By the beginning of World War II, the development of aviation led to the fact that the Anglo-Saxons received a new weapon "Contactless" war. Massive bombing with the extermination of thousands and thousands of civilians, attacks on cultural and historical centers, that is, air terror, allowed to break the will of the enemy to resist. Break it, force it to surrender without a decisive defeat on land.


Completely destroyed residential areas of Tokyo


Heavily charred corpses of Tokyo residents

Air terror


In World War II, the North Atlantic world (USA and England) showed the planet a new weapon of world domination - aircraft carriers and “flying fortresses” (strategic aviation). Carpet bombing wiped entire cities off the face of the earth.

Hitler's invasion was terrible, but traditional, mostly land. The main weapon of the Germans was a tank and a dive bomber (short range). Hitler did not have an air fleet of distant, strategic bombers. And the Anglo-Saxons created a new weapon of "non-contact", remote warfare - a squadron of air fortresses reaching the target of thousands of kilometers, fighting in tight battle formations, where one plane covers the other ("flying fortresses" had good defensive armament). Against these "air fortresses" conventional cannon fighters proved ineffective. I had to create air-to-air missiles and anti-aircraft missile systems.

The blow to Dresden has become a classic act of air terror. The peaceful city has turned into a huge fire and burial ground for tens of thousands of civilians. Mostly civilians and numerous refugees, women, the elderly and children. The soldiers and military equipment of the Reich were at the front. Therefore, it was a vile, extremely cruel and cynical bombardment of a city where there were almost no air defense systems, the mass destruction of peaceful and defenseless people.

On February 26 and March 10, 1945, the Americans burned the Japanese capital Tokyo in the same way. The airstrike involved 334 strategic B-29 bombers, each of which dropped several tons of incendiary bombs and napalm. As a result of fires in residential neighborhoods, completely built up with wooden buildings, a fiery tornado formed, which did not allow fighting fire and led to mass deaths. People tried to save themselves and rushed into the ponds in bulk, but the water boiled in them, and the fire burned the air, strangling the survivors. Killed more than 100 thousand people. Mostly civilians.

There was no military need for this and subsequent attacks on Japanese cities. The Japanese empire continued to resist. She could still fight for a year or two on the Japanese islands and the mainland. Americans and British would lose millions of people. Japan was forced to capitulate only the entry into the war of the USSR. The Soviet army on land destroyed the Japanese Manchu army, deprived the Japanese high command of the hope of a continuation of the war in China and Manchuria, where there was a "reserve airfield" of the Japanese elite.

Carpet bombing was a classic Western act of mass terror. The US Air Force general, who planned and carried out massive bombing of Japanese cities during World War II, Curtis Lemey later said: "I think if we lost the war, I would be judged as a war criminal."


Folded to burn the bodies of residents of Dresden on Altmarkt Square, who died as a result of the Allied bombing of the city on February 13-15, 1945

An attempt to intimidate the Russians


The massive bombing of Germany (partly Japan) became a kind of huge psychological operations. Firstly, the owners of London and Washington tried to break the morale of the warrior nations, Germans and Japanese. For generations ahead, break down the Germans and Japanese, make them slaves to the future world order, led by the Anglo-Saxons. Therefore, Westerners completely destroyed small German towns like Ellingen, Bayreuth, Ulm, Aachen, Munster, etc. These were centers of history, culture, art and German faith (Lutheranism). The "nerve nodes" of historical memory, culture, religion, science and education burned to the ground. Massively sacrificed women, children and the elderly.

The military-industrial potential of Germany and Japan practically did not suffer in these attacks. The Germans hid the military factories underground in the rocks. The military industry of the Reich worked right to the very end, like the whole German war machine. After the main industrial centers of Germany were destroyed (the companies disguised themselves, hid them underground), the Anglo-American command made up a new list of targets - cities almost not covered by fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft artillery. Those that could be bombed with almost impunity. Air terror of the West was aimed at suppressing the spirit, the will of the nation. From now on, no faith and magic, no military cults, only slavery and consumption (the victory of the "golden calf"), the power of the owners of money. No more secret orders, ancient magic, the cult of the warrior, honor and dignity, self-sacrifice in the name of the nation and the Motherland, only consumer slaves subordinate to the dollar and the masters of the United States. It was a murder of the "spirit of the nation."

Secondly, it was a demonstration for the Russians. Bloodless Russia was shown its future if it did not show “flexibility”. The West showed its terrible air power of wounded Russia. Like, the same will be with Russian cities. True, with Stalin, the owners of London and Washington did not pass this trick. Russia could respond with steel tank armada and powerful fighter aircraft. The first Soviet jet fighters, anti-aircraft guided missiles and atomic weapons were on their way. The direct military "club" of Stalin was not impressed. The Russians knew about the terrible threat and worked day and night so that there was something to answer the adversary. Therefore, the West had to abandon direct aggression and start the Cold War.
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://waralbum.ru/
Ctrl Enter

Noticed a mistake Highlight text and press. Ctrl + Enter

228 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Vladimir_2U 14 February 2020 05: 57 New
    • 21
    • 3
    +18
    But then why did Hiroshima and Nagasaki, apart from field tests, agree with both the author and the scientific director of the RVIO.
    1. bessmertniy 14 February 2020 06: 45 New
      • 12
      • 3
      +9
      It is possible that if the Americans had time with the bombs, they could have tested the first atomic bombing just on Dresden.
      1. Chervonny 14 February 2020 06: 50 New
        • 35
        • 5
        +30
        But the Anglo-Saxons call us "barbarians", and themselves "cultural European people."
        Just these "cultural" are the barbarians of the modern world. It is normal for them to destroy cultural values ​​and civilians.
        1. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 08: 59 New
          • 31
          • 8
          +23
          The Anglo-Saxons generally like to blame us for all the deadly sins for which they themselves are to blame. Didn't pay attention? They accuse us of terrorism, being the main terrorists on this planet. They accuse us of interfering in their elections, interfering in all elections around the world, more precisely where they can reach. They accuse us of killing civilians, knowing that we are not killing any civilians, and they are just doing it.
          In general, for me, the Anglo-Saxons are some kind of devil. This may sound like Nazism, but I believe that the Anglo-Saxon nation should either be destroyed, or at least brought to a state of decline, so that it could not spoil everyone else.
          1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 09: 17 New
            • 16
            • 24
            -8
            We also love to blame them, politics is the same war, only another tool is used.
            1. Varyag_0711 14 February 2020 09: 21 New
              • 17
              • 7
              +10
              mr.ZinGer (Vladimir)
              We also love to blame them, politics is the same war, only another tool is used.
              And their type is nothing to blame?

              - Then not the ruins of the chapel ...
              - Excuse me, but I also ruined the chapel?
              - No, it was before you, in the 14th century ...

              Who is messing up the world? Is it really Russia? Who breeds constant wars, who sponsors terrorism? Maybe it's us?
              Accused, then there is something to blame. Learn history or something. Tell me an empire over which the sun never set?
              1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 09: 40 New
                • 11
                • 27
                -16
                Have you read the text?
                I repeat for those who like to teach
                The Britons blame us, and we the Britons.
                Everything is logical that it so excited you.
                1. Chervonny 14 February 2020 09: 45 New
                  • 20
                  • 5
                  +15
                  Quote: mr.ZinGer
                  The Britons blame us, and we the Britons.
                  Everything is logical

                  I do not see the logic.
                  The Anglo-Saxons blame us for no reason, simply because they so want.
                  We are accused Anglo-Saxons only on the basis of evidence, when their trace is clearly visible.
                  1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 10: 29 New
                    • 9
                    • 15
                    -6
                    They blame us not when we want, but when there is political and economic interest, and we do the same.
                2. figwam 14 February 2020 10: 10 New
                  • 4
                  • 3
                  +1
                  What are the Germans, what are the British, what are Americans worth each other.
                  1. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 10: 19 New
                    • 9
                    • 7
                    +2
                    So the Germans, and the Franks, and the Anglo-Saxons, these are all Germanic tribes, relatives, so to speak. So why shouldn't they cost each other?
            2. meandr51 18 February 2020 18: 22 New
              • 1
              • 0
              +1
              The difference is that we do not have to invent and exaggerate, blaming these speakers. No need, no habits.
          2. intuzazist 14 February 2020 20: 08 New
            • 2
            • 4
            -2
            This thought visits me daaavno !!!! Only it is necessary to clean all the centers of the spread of the Anglo-Saxons! Otherwise, the disease can not be defeated .....
        2. zenion April 23 2020 19: 04 New
          • 0
          • 0
          0
          The Americans, when the Red Army moved to Vienna, began to bomb. They were ready for this and rockets from Katyusha were delivered to high-altitude fighters. Fighters flew up and launched rockets in the direction of American fortresses and, of course, immediately shot down several. The Americans got scared and scattered. If before they didn’t react at all to the fact that this was the Red Army, they immediately requested that they stop shooting them down.
      2. Octopus 14 February 2020 13: 58 New
        • 4
        • 1
        +3
        Quote: bessmertniy
        they could test the first atomic bombing just on Dresden.

        This gift was baked to Hitler, actually. Nobody really counted on the Japanese, at least in the beginning.
      3. Gene84 14 February 2020 15: 39 New
        • 7
        • 1
        +6
        Quote: bessmertniy
        It is possible that if the Americans had time with the bombs, they could have tested the first atomic bombing just on Dresden.

        indisputably. the states didn’t care who it was dumped on and no matter where.
      4. voyaka uh 15 February 2020 12: 58 New
        • 4
        • 1
        +3
        "if the Americans had time with bombs, they could try
        the first atomic bombing "////
        ----
        The Manhattan project was prepared against Hitler. The goal was to quit
        atomic bomb on Berlin, kill Hitler and end the war with one blow.
        But the development dragged on. In Yalta, agreed that Berlin will take
        Red Army in any situation.
        1. Octopus 15 February 2020 22: 39 New
          • 8
          • 0
          +8
          Quote: voyaka uh
          In Yalta, agreed that Berlin will take
          Red Army in any situation.

          No. There was no agreement on this subject; there was an agreement that, in any case, all allies receive occupation zones in Berlin, no matter who takes it.

          The final decision to surrender Berlin to the Russians and, so to speak, to mine the last month of the war, was made by Eisenhower on April 13th.
          1. meandr51 18 February 2020 18: 27 New
            • 0
            • 0
            0
            Just because there was no military opportunity.
            1. Octopus 18 February 2020 19: 38 New
              • 2
              • 0
              +2
              His military capabilities were in bulk. The encirclement of Berlin took place on April 25, on the 13th, Eisenhower already had a bridgehead and a bridge over the Elbe was built. To tear down the Berlin offensive, without allowing encirclement - no problem, to go north to Berlin to Stettin - all the more without question. Henrici and GA Wisla would almost certainly have shown prudence (when Heinrici was removed on April 28, he got into the car and drove off to surrender to the Americans himself)

              But Eisenhower stopped. For two reasons.
              1. He really did not think that his task was to prepare for war with the USSR. This simple thought came to him only at the end of the 45th year, at the post of NachSH. Consequently, the outline of the line of contact with the Red Army was not something important for him.

              2. He knew that from those territories where they would go beyond the agreements, not even Yalta, but on the 43rd year, they would be asked. Accordingly, it turns out that American soldiers, even a hundred, albeit only one, died in vain. This happened in the summer in Thuringia: Patton almost reached the outskirts of Prague, but at the request of the Soviet side Truman withdrew American forces to the borders of the future German Democratic Republic. Then the Republicans in Congress almost soldered treason to him. By the way, for the cause.

              If would The Allies really did not like the USSR to the extent that the current patriots dream, the alignment for the 45th year was would radically different.
              1. meandr51 25 February 2020 22: 24 New
                • 0
                • 0
                0
                Well, then the Soviet campaign against Japan would have been of a completely different nature.
                Could and generally cancel it.
                1. Octopus 26 February 2020 02: 09 New
                  • 2
                  • 1
                  +1
                  Quote: meandr51
                  Could and generally cancel it.

                  The neutralization of the USSR in Asia was to be one of the main tasks of the Allies. The naval, being noticeably more intelligent than the army, including in the general educational plan, understood this, but could not do anything without the sanction of the political leadership.

                  The easiest way to neutralize the USSR in the East is to occupy it in other places. West and especially South. Neither Truman nor Eisenhower understood this.
                  Quote: meandr51
                  the Soviet campaign against Japan would have been of a completely different nature.

                  The USSR did not and could not conduct any campaign against Japan. Japan is on the islands, and the USSR does not have a fleet. Manchu history is part of the war of the USSR against the American ally, Kuomintang China, and not Japan at all.
                  1. meandr51 26 February 2020 16: 00 New
                    • 0
                    • 0
                    0
                    If the USSR had agreed with Japan, it could have transferred part of the Kwantung army to the islands ... I do not think that Roosevelt and Truman “did not understand” something when they asked Stalin to start a war with Japan. As for the lack of a fleet, they took the Kuril Islands, they could have taken Hokkaido, it seemed that it even had plans, but the weather and the layout prevented it.
                    1. Octopus 26 February 2020 17: 17 New
                      • 0
                      • 1
                      -1
                      Quote: meandr51
                      she could transfer part of the Kwantung army to the islands ...

                      How? Dig a tunnel? Mr. Nimitz, what do you think is doing there?
                      Quote: meandr51
                      I don’t think that Roosevelt and Truman “didn’t understand something” when they asked Stalin to start a war with Japan

                      Truman all his life making excuses, they say, deceived him. Roosevelt was posthumous for high treason in Congress.
                      Quote: meandr51
                      then the Kuril Islands took

                      I took the Kuril Islands in peacetime, I recall. At that, every sixth. If we do not forget that Japan capitulated on August 14, the successes of the Red Army at the end of the summer take on a slightly different flavor.
                      Quote: meandr51
                      like even the plans were

                      The plans of altistorics.
    2. Lexus 14 February 2020 06: 46 New
      • 15
      • 2
      +13
      Some nonhumans decided to outdo others.
      1. Uncle lee 14 February 2020 07: 12 New
        • 14
        • 3
        +11
        Quote: lexus
        nonhumans

        The British avenged the Germans for the bombing of London ...
        Americans avenged the Japanese for Pearl Harbor ...
        Both those and other imperialist predators!
        1. Svarog51 14 February 2020 07: 29 New
          • 16
          • 1
          +15
          Vladimir hi I was in Dresden several times in 83-85. The city center was not yet restored. A terrible sight, especially against the background of the beauty that I saw in museums and the Dresden Gallery.
          1. Uncle lee 14 February 2020 07: 34 New
            • 7
            • 1
            +6
            Quote: Svarog51
            in 83-85 years

            Ruins after another 40 years! And this is with German pedantry and hard work .. It’s scary to imagine what was happening at 45 ..
            Sergei hi
            1. Svarog51 14 February 2020 07: 41 New
              • 21
              • 0
              +21
              Scary to imagine what was happening at 45 ..

              Not the right word! This I have not seen all. As our officers told, a small area in the center was left as a reminder, the rest was restored. After the reunification of Germany, the new authorities apparently decided to remove this "reminder" from sight. Apparently, the Americans do not want to annoy.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. gmb
            gmb 14 February 2020 10: 18 New
            • 4
            • 8
            -4
            And you were in Peterhof, but in Tsarskoye Selo
            1. Svarog51 14 February 2020 12: 00 New
              • 5
              • 0
              +5
              I wasn’t, I saw destruction only from documentary chronicles.
        2. Lamata 14 February 2020 07: 39 New
          • 12
          • 1
          +11
          London, how many died and what destruction were?
          1. Uncle lee 14 February 2020 07: 46 New
            • 4
            • 3
            +1
            Quote: Lamata
            how many died

            43000 died, more than 51000 seriously injured
            1. Lamata 14 February 2020 07: 58 New
              • 15
              • 1
              +14
              I can’t justify the Germans in any way, but Dresden’s bombing is a purely political act, especially for a good example for the USSR.
            2. sevtrash 14 February 2020 19: 24 New
              • 1
              • 0
              +1
              Quote: Uncle Lee
              how many died
              43000 died, more than 51000 seriously injured

              According to Wikipedia in London, about half of this number died - 43 thousand, the rest seems to be not in London, although it is called the London Blitz.
              "... In World War II, aerial bombardments claimed the lives of 60 British, from 595 to 305 Germans ..." from Wiki
              1. sevtrash 14 February 2020 19: 27 New
                • 1
                • 0
                +1
                ... American bombing of Tokyo, Yokohama, Kobe and many other Japanese cities, including the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, claimed the lives of 330 to 000 Japanese civilians ...
              2. Lamata 14 February 2020 19: 28 New
                • 0
                • 2
                -2
                Why such a difference of 2 times? The Germans had statistics on top.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 14 February 2020 20: 35 New
                  • 3
                  • 0
                  +3
                  Quote: Lamata
                  Why such a difference of 2 times? The Germans had statistics on top.

                  Maybe because one figure takes into account local residents, and the other local + refugees?
                  1. Lamata 14 February 2020 22: 07 New
                    • 1
                    • 2
                    -1
                    Maybe so, in the same Dresden there were many refugees at the time of the bombing.
              3. sevtrash 14 February 2020 19: 32 New
                • 1
                • 0
                +1
                Almost half of the 1 Berlin buildings suffered one or another damage; every third house was either completely destroyed or unsuitable for living. The casualties were so high that they can never be accurately calculated, but at least 562 people died and were twice as seriously injured (that's five times more dead and seriously injured than during the bombing of London)
        3. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 09: 01 New
          • 9
          • 13
          -4
          Uncle Lee (Vladimir)
          The British avenged the Germans for the bombing of London ...
          Americans avenged the Japanese for Pearl Harbor ...
          Both those and other imperialist predators!
          At the same time, the British themselves dragged the Germans into the war, and the Americans dragged the Japanese. Cool tactics, right?
          1. gmb
            gmb 14 February 2020 10: 20 New
            • 7
            • 12
            -5
            You re-read mine kapp
            1. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 10: 23 New
              • 7
              • 7
              0
              gmb (Michael)
              You re-read mine kapp
              Firstly, not Mine Kapf, but Mine Kampf. Secondly, I didn’t re-read it, but apparently you, I didn’t touch this muck!
              1. gmb
                gmb 14 February 2020 12: 15 New
                • 4
                • 5
                -1
                You have the reverse logic, correct from the point of view of the attacker.
      2. Olgovich 14 February 2020 07: 26 New
        • 25
        • 16
        +9
        Quote: lexus
        Some nonhumans decided to outdo others

        that is yes ...

        however, one of the results of the bombing is not indicated:
        "As a result of raids on the city’s railway infrastructure was severely damaged that fully paralyzed communications ","railway bridges over the Elba River - vital for the transfer of troops - remained inaccessible for movement over a few weeks after the raid
        »

        and it saved. certainly many lives наших soldier.

        The fact that many peaceful Germans died is regrettable, but the Germans themselves. who unleashed this war, NEVER bothered with this ... So ... request
        1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 09: 01 New
          • 14
          • 19
          -5
          Quote: Olgovich
          and it saved. certainly many lives of our soldiers.

          Look: as many as five ANONYMES-minors-cowards did not like. what were RESCUE thousands the lives of OUR soldiers- as a result of bombed Nazi bridges and railway blocked for WEEKS!
          1. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 09: 12 New
            • 16
            • 12
            +4
            Olgovich (Andrey)
            Look: as many as five ANONYMES-minors-cowards did not like. that thousands of the lives of OUR soldiers were SAVED as a result of bombed Nazi bridges and railways blocked for the WEEK!
            Well, I didn’t like it, because you are lying like Trotsky, and then what? There was no help for us from the bombing of Dresden, only damage. So minus you from me, and deserved, for your constant FALSE!
          2. serg.shishkov2015 14 February 2020 09: 21 New
            • 18
            • 7
            +11
            these bombs could be dropped on combat-ready German units and this would save many more lives of our soldiers! and my minus is not anonymous to you! I'm not hiding under fictitious nicknames! long ago revealed both the place of residence and place of work !!
            1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 09: 44 New
              • 6
              • 15
              -9
              Quote: serg.shishkov2015
              these bombs could be dropped on combat-ready German units

              And they could be GENERALLY not reset.

              So is it better that the transport hub is stopped or NOTHING at all?
              With a lousy dog ​​...
              The transportation of reserves to our front has been stopped, evacuation to the West
              Quote: serg.shishkov2015
              and my minus is not anonymous to you!

              so FOR WHAT minus? WHAT is untrue? belay
              1. serg.shishkov2015 14 February 2020 10: 00 New
                • 13
                • 4
                +9
                These bridges were NOT the target! They got hit by the demolition of bombs! The goal was non-combatants! In Dresden, there were no other factories besides china and tobacco factories! It's so easy to bomb a city with weak air defense! Even if the whole world proves to me that I am NOT right, I will still remain in my opinion!
                1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 11: 01 New
                  • 8
                  • 15
                  -7
                  Quote: serg.shishkov2015
                  These bridges were NOT the target!

                  Not one figs? Damaged - and good!
                  Quote: serg.shishkov2015
                  In Dresden, there were no other factories besides china and tobacco factories!

                  Do not carry nonsense: this is what the Germans themselves write:
                  According to the Dresden Chamber of Commerce and Industry since 1941, the city was "one of the first industrial facilities of the empire." By 1944, most of the factories were almost completely converted into weapons. in February 1945 in Dresden was located "at least 110 ”factories and companies that were“ legitimate military objectives ”. The arms industry alone employs 50 workers.

                  The ONLY undestructed another transport node third largest in Germany.
                  1. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 29 New
                    • 4
                    • 1
                    +3
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    The ONLY non-destroyed transport hub, the third largest in Germany.

                    And if bombs, railway tracks, stations, warehouses were bombed - who would be worse off from this? Ours is definitely not. They deliberately destroyed the civilian population. Disgusting! Yes, somewhere else I read that, like, there was an attempt to blame ours, that the city was destroyed at our request.
                    1. Octopus 14 February 2020 14: 20 New
                      • 4
                      • 1
                      +3
                      Quote: victor50
                      somewhere else I read that, like, there was an attempt to blame on ours that the city was destroyed at our request

                      In Yalta, consultations were held regarding the objectives for the bombing of the Allies. There is a memorandum of Antonov
                      9. Our wishes:
                      a) To accelerate the transition of the Allied forces to the offensive on the Western Front, which is now very favorable for the situation:
                      1) the defeat of the Germans on the eastern front;
                      2) the defeat of the German group advancing in the Ardennes;
                      3) the weakening of German forces in the west due to the transfer of their reserves to the east.
                      It is advisable to launch an offensive in the first half of February.
                      b) Air strikes on communications to prevent the enemy from moving their troops east from the western front, from Norway and from Italy; in particular, paralyze the nodes of Berlin and Leipzig.
                      c) Do not allow the enemy to withdraw his forces from Italy. "

                      Dresden is not in it, but Dresden is the most important railway station. There is a theme that allegedly there were requests on this topic from Tadder from Stalin in January, but the minutes of their conversations did not come across to me.
                  2. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 13: 52 New
                    • 0
                    • 2
                    -2
                    Do not carry nonsense: this is what the Germans themselves write:
                    ... in February 1945, “at least 110” factories and companies that were “legitimate military objectives” were located in Dresden. The arms industry alone employs 50 workers ...

                    The Germans write:
                    Nach Angaben der USAAF waren im Februar 1945 "mindestens 110" Fabriken und Unternehmen in Dresden ansässig, die "legitime militärische Ziele" darstellten

                    And if you click on the link number 5, what follows this text, then you will find:
                    Dresden, Germany, City Area, Economic Reports, Vol. No. 2, Headquarters US Strategic Bombing Survey, July 10 1945; and OSS London, No. B-1799/4, March 3 1945, in same item
                2. voyaka uh 15 February 2020 13: 07 New
                  • 1
                  • 1
                  0
                  "In Dresden, in addition to china and tobacco factories, there were no other factories!" ////
                  ----
                  Dresden was called the "city of SS" in Germany. They were gradually evacuated there.
                  from all over Germany the command agencies of the SS and the National Socialist Party.
                  So, among civilians, more Nazi war criminals were killed during the bombing than in all tribunals.
              2. serg.shishkov2015 14 February 2020 10: 03 New
                • 11
                • 5
                +6
                Do you know that * Mustangs * flew in the morning and shot those who survived that hell from the shaver? And what does the bridges have to do with it?
            2. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 10: 38 New
              • 15
              • 2
              +13
              Quote: serg.shishkov2015
              these bombs could be dropped on combat-ready German units and this would save many more lives of our soldiers!

              You suggest to disguise the disguised infantry from 6 km? At best, put up a couple of battalions. At worst, cover our own soldiers.
              And do not forget that during the day and for specific purposes only the Yankees work. Limes - only night raids, in areas.

              By the way, a blow to one of the three largest railway junctions near Berlin occurred exactly during the most intense struggle of the Soviet army for bridgeheads.
              1. serg.shishkov2015 14 February 2020 10: 50 New
                • 5
                • 8
                -3
                You are right - it’s useless to bomb from 6 km, but the main thing is that it’s not at all scary! but from 1-1,5 km, yes! It was necessary to decide on this! and with perfect American sights, bombs will fall very accurately and the German infantry will not find it! But your own ass will be very fried!
                1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 11: 40 New
                  • 6
                  • 2
                  +4
                  Quote: serg.shishkov2015
                  You are right - it’s useless to bomb from 6 km, but the main thing is that it’s not at all scary! but from 1-1,5 km, yes! It was necessary to decide on this! and with perfect American sights, bombs will fall very accurately and the German infantry will not find it!

                  That is, you propose that the Allies arrange a suicide bombing of heavy bombers in the fire zone, even the MZA a-la Dvinsk or Berezina, and lose for the duration of long-range aviation - for the sake of a couple of destroyed Wehrmacht regiments? Can you imagine - what expense will they roll out for us after the war? How much will the USSR control zone be reduced in Europe?
                  By the way, how do you find this infantry? You don’t think that a huge arrow “mission target” will be hanging in the air, indicating the enemy’s troops? wink
                  And about the "accurate sights" - see the destruction near the railway station and warehouses. This is standard accuracy when working for a specific purpose using the Norden. The same ones2-5% of bombs fall into the borders of the target".
                  1. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 34 New
                    • 1
                    • 4
                    -3
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    That is, you propose that the Allies arrange a suicide bombing of heavy bombers in the fire zone, even the MZA a-la Dvinsk or Berezina, and lose for the duration of long-range aviation - for the sake of a couple of destroyed Wehrmacht regiments? Can you imagine - what expense will they roll out for us after the war? How much will the USSR control zone be reduced in Europe?

                    It seems that ours did not take into account that there would be additional sacrifices on our part, rather, they consciously went for it when they launched the offensive earlier than the planned date in order to facilitate the fate of the allies in the Ardennes ?! Our mentality is different: if we help, we help, according to the principle, apparently, we perish ourselves, but comrade ... Well, then you know.
                    1. Octopus 14 February 2020 15: 01 New
                      • 2
                      • 3
                      -1
                      Quote: victor50
                      It seems that ours did not take into account that there would be additional victims on our part

                      You say thank you that they did not miss Berlin. To Kyustrin.
                      Quote: victor50
                      offensive ahead of schedule to ease the fate of the Allies in the Ardennes ?! Our mentality is different: if we help, then we help, according to the principle, apparently, we die, and comrade

                      ... bury. If the Allies had such a mentality as the Soviet side, not a single dog would leave Europe.
                      1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 15: 59 New
                        • 1
                        • 0
                        +1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        You say thank you that they did not miss Berlin. To Kyustrin.

                        You can still unload at Kyustrin in February. But if according to Schwerin ...
                        And after all they can - Switzerland is an example of this. Who was talking about Stockholm? wink
                      2. Octopus 15 February 2020 11: 34 New
                        • 0
                        • 0
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        if according to Schwerin

                        Do not understand. Why didn’t Schwerin please you? Rokossovsky in those places appears in May, EMNIP.
                      3. Alexey RA 16 February 2020 14: 17 New
                        • 0
                        • 0
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Do not understand. Why didn’t Schwerin please you? Rokossovsky in those places appears in May, EMNIP.

                        But did not Zhukov take it in January-February 1945?
                        Several attacks hit the 433rd Lubbe Infantry Division at once. On January 27, the left flank of the division was bypassed by the advance detachment of the 5th shock army in the area of ​​Lukac Kreutz on r. Drage. The offensive of the 4th Guards began against the right flank. Rifle Corps 8th Guards. army. The corps at 9.00 on January 29 crossed the state border of Germany. Onslaught of the 35th Guards units of Lubbe managed to contain the infantry division. But over On January 29 and 30, the corps broke through the defense with the forces of the 47th and 57th Guards. rifle divisions, bypassed the right flank of the 433rd Infantry Division and went to Schwerin.
                        © Isaev
                        February 1 Update
                        Northeast and East of Frankfurt an der Oder our troops captured the city and the Schwerin railway junction, and also occupied more than 100 other settlements in the territory of the Brandenburg province, including large settlements of Liebenov, Dühringshof, Hammer, Koenigswalde, Glaissen, Zeeren, Lagov, Mühlbock, Grisel, Laitersdorf.
                      4. Octopus 16 February 2020 15: 34 New
                        • 0
                        • 0
                        0
                        I'm talking about this Schwerin.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerin
                        You about this
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skwierzyna
              2. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 15: 50 New
                • 4
                • 2
                +2
                Quote: victor50
                It seems that ours did not take into account that there would be additional sacrifices on our part, rather, they consciously went for it when they launched the offensive earlier than the planned date in order to facilitate the fate of the allies in the Ardennes ?!

                It just seems.
                If you look at the memoirs of the participants in the operation, it turns out that from November 1944 the planning of the Vistula-Oder operation came from the calculation of the beginning in the first ten days of January. When the Germans were just preparing for the Ardennes, tank armies were already being transferred to the respective fronts. When the Germans launched an offensive in the Ardennes, Zhukov had already brought the developed plan of the front operation to the army commanders.
                The litmus test of the actual timing of the offensive is to enter the areas of concentration of the tank and attack armies - and so, they plannedly, without any assault, went to bridgeheads in early 1945. And in fact, the offensive began 2-3 days later than planned - they waited for the weather.
                But in Yalta, Uncle Joe rolled out the Allies account for the "prematurely launched offensive", keeping silent about the real situation. For Winnie in January 1945, great framed with letters to the ITT.
                One of the common misconceptions regarding the Vistula-Oder operation is the linking of its beginning to certain “requests” of the allies. Allegedly, it was launched a few days earlier in connection with the difficult situation of the Anglo-American troops in the Ardennes. However, by the end of December 1944, the crisis had passed, and on January 3, 1945, the Allies began a general offensive from the north and from the south in a general direction to Uffaliz. Anglo-American troops slowly but surely drove the Germans out of a wedge driven into their defense. What is commonly called “prayers for help” from Churchill was in fact a simple request for the plans of the Red Army for January 1945. Gaining political points, I.V. Stalin promised to launch the offensive earlier, although in reality the operation began later than planned. Statements by I.S. Koneva that the operation was initially scheduled for January 20, but then was postponed to January 12, sounds illogical against the background of the concentration of troops on the Sandomierz bridgehead. By January 9, five combined-arms, two tank armies, and three separate tank corps were assembled at the bridgehead. There was no need to keep such a mass of troops in a limited space for two weeks from January 5 to 20. We see the same thing in the band of the 1st Belorussian Front: the 61st Army finished concentrating on the bridgehead on January 5, and the 5th Assault and 33rd Army on January 8th. In addition to opening the concentration of troops by German intelligence, a bridgehead full of infantry and tanks could become the object of artillery shelling and air strikes, when almost every shell or bomb would find a victim.
                © Isaev
        2. Octopus 14 February 2020 14: 23 New
          • 2
          • 1
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          You suggest to disguise the disguised infantry from 6 km? At best, put a couple of battalions

          Deputy General Staff Leslie McNair, later deceased, understood well in such things.
          1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 18: 23 New
            • 3
            • 0
            +3
            Quote: Octopus
            Deputy General Staff Leslie McNair, later deceased, understood well in such things.

            Norden sights, they said. Outstanding accuracy, they said. smile
            The whole battalion of their own is in the red, and the rest had to crawl along the "lunar landscape".
            1. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 42 New
              • 3
              • 0
              +3
              Well, Arnold and Harris were already tired of fighting on Hitler’s side, just stealing resources from their armies on their golden flying slaughterhouse, and they decided to literally open fire on headquarters, given the opportunity.
    3. cradle 14 February 2020 09: 42 New
      • 9
      • 3
      +6
      obviously not adequate ... it was possible to bomb stupidly bridges ... what do the peaceful people have to do with it?
      1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 09: 47 New
        • 7
        • 13
        -6
        Quote: besik
        clearly not adequate ...

        Sympathize with you yes
        Quote: besik
        it was possible to bomb stupid bridges

        and bombing
        Quote: besik
        what does the peaceful people have to do with it?

        Regrettably, but .... War, you know
    4. apro 14 February 2020 09: 44 New
      • 10
      • 3
      +7
      Olgovich. Railway node was not injured ....
      1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 09: 57 New
        • 7
        • 10
        -3
        Quote: apro
        Olgovich. Railway node was not injured ....

        Destroyed railway depot and track.
        A. Isaev:
        restoration of the functioning of Dresden as a transport hub it took two weeks of round-the-clock work
        1. apro 14 February 2020 10: 07 New
          • 6
          • 2
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          Destroyed railway depot and track.
          A. Isaev:

          At Irving, the railway junction was not damaged. The sorting network of the track was left untouched. As were the automobile bridges. Help for the Dresden rescuers came along them.
          1. Octopus 14 February 2020 15: 03 New
            • 2
            • 2
            0
            Quote: apro
            Irving railway junction was not damaged. The sorting network of the track remained untouched. Like automobile bridges

            Irving is a fighter for peace, let me remind you. In his case, this means direct rewriting of Goebbels.
      2. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 37 New
        • 1
        • 1
        0
        Quote: apro
        Olgovich. Railway node was not injured ....

        Yes, by the way, I read, it seemed, from Slepukhin that the heroine was leaving and the burnt Dresden, by rail from the city station. Fiction, however, literature.
    5. balunn 14 February 2020 10: 19 New
      • 11
      • 2
      +9
      Why was there a bomb for three days? It was a purposeful destruction of the cultural values ​​of the nation aimed specifically at intimidation. There was no military purpose in the bombing of Dresden. This fact has long been proven.
      1. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 10: 30 New
        • 11
        • 4
        +7
        I agree, proven! But as you see, there are many inadequacies for which the Anglo-Saxon version is closer. However, maybe they are not so inadequate, maybe they are trying for a little money ?!
        1. balunn 14 February 2020 13: 11 New
          • 2
          • 1
          +1
          So they themselves recognized that there was no military need to destroy Dresden.
        2. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 39 New
          • 2
          • 1
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Suvorov
          However, maybe they are not so inadequate, maybe they are trying for a little money ?!

          He has a pathological hatred of everything Soviet.
    6. Looking for 14 February 2020 16: 30 New
      • 2
      • 1
      +1
      the allies "for some reason" did not bombard the area where the military enterprises were concentrated. But they bombed a densely populated center. Enough to fantasize. It was just an act of intimidation. It had no military meaning.
  2. Alexander Suvorov 14 February 2020 09: 04 New
    • 16
    • 9
    +7
    Do not lie olgovich, bridges have been restored within a few days. The bombing of Dresden did not bring any benefit to our troops.
    They bombed Dresden in order to inflict maximum damage so that we won’t get anything.
    Deflection under your Anglo-Saxon masters is counted, you can go get some candy.
    1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 09: 27 New
      • 10
      • 14
      -4
      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      Do not lie olgovich, bridges have been restored within a few days.

      Do not talk in vain, the "restorer" of bridges, but refute the source: HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945 BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN https://web.archive.org/web/20100817084455/http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af .mil / PopTopics / dresden.htm, where it says:
      “As a result of raids on the city’s railway infrastructure, severe damage was caused, which completely paralyzed communication ", “Railway bridges across the Elba River - vital for troop transfers - remained inaccessible for traffic for several weeks after the raid

      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      The bombing of Dresden did not bring any benefit to our troops.

      for Napoleons: Dresden is the LARGEST Nazi transportation hub, the transportation through which was INTERRUPTED. Even for a day break is our saved lives.
      However. ask the Macedonian neighbor - even he understands yes
      Quote: Alexander Suvorov
      They bombed Dresden in order to inflict maximum damage so that we won’t get anything.
      What would we get?
      And more:
      Almost 200 factories were damaged, of which 136 suffered serious damage (including several Zeiss optical companies), 28 - medium damage and 35 - small
      .Killed workers. worked there.

      it didn’t help us fool
      can go get some candy.

      Is that how you are encouraged?
      I sympathize .... And how is Napoleon?
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
      2. apro 14 February 2020 09: 51 New
        • 11
        • 0
        +11
        Olgovich. The fate of Germany was finally decided on the Oder. The senseless destruction of material assets and civilians in that situation is meaningless. When the Soviet command asked the Allies to bomb the fleet of Germans or Finns they did not agree. In addition, the Soviet command issued orders prohibiting senseless destruction of property.
        1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 10: 29 New
          • 4
          • 12
          -8
          Quote: apro
          Olgovich. The fate of Germany was finally decided on the Oder. The meaningless destruction of wealth and civil values ​​in that situation is pointless

          WHAT is meaningless: the interruption of the work of the ONLY undestructed, THIRD in Germany transport hub through which many The main transportation of the Reich east-west-south(the rest are ruined) ?!

          Or a halt to the war industry? :
          According to the Dresden Chamber of Commerce and Industry since 1941, the city was "one of the first industrial facilities of the empire." By 1944, most of the factories were almost completely converted into weapons. in February 1945 in Dresden was located “At least 110” factories and companies that were “legitimate military objectives”. The arms industry alone employs 50 workers.
          This is written Germans themselves https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftangriffe_auf_Dresden
          Peaceful perished, sadly, but the WAR is coming, started by them!
          1. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 10: 47 New
            • 3
            • 3
            0
            This is written by the Germans themselves https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftangriffe_auf_Dresden

            The Germans themselves write that
            Erst mit diesem Angriff wurde der militärisch und zivil wichtige Bahnverkehr durch Dresden wirksam unterbrochen.

            And it is written about the last bombing on April 17, 1945. And not about February.
            1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 11: 27 New
              • 3
              • 9
              -6
              Quote: A vile skeptic
              The Germans themselves write that
              Erst mit diesem Angriff wurde der militärisch und zivil wichtige Bahnverkehr durch Dresden wirksam unterbrochen.

              And it is written about the last bombing on April 17, 1945. And not about February.

              The description I have given is the result of the FEBRUARY bombing. Got it?
              Der Straßenverkehr war nach dem 13. Februar zunächst vollständig blockiert .. Alle Elbbrücken im Stadtgebiet waren beschädigt... Das Zentrum war als Verkehrsknotenpunkt unpassierbar geworden. Der Eisenbahnverkehr wurde jedoch nach zwei Wochen behelfsmäßig wieder in Betrieb genommen.
              1. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 12: 14 New
                • 4
                • 1
                +3
                The description given by me is the result of the bombing of the FEBRUARY bombing. Got it?

                And it dawned on you that the Germans themselves, since you decided to operate on a specific German source, they say in this source that
                It was only as a result of this attack that the military-civil significance of the railway connection through Dresden was effectively interrupted.

                And this is about April 17th, and not about February.

                And now to the text you cited, which you again pulled from different places to remove the essence. I quote the text without your “spaces” from your link (highlighted in bold):
                1)
                Although RAF night raids were not aimed directly at the Dresden military industry They destroyed 23 percent of Dresden's industrial operations and damaged many utilities, such as gas, water and power plants.

                The fact that industrial facilities were destroyed is an accident, they simply bombed inaccurately and bombs hit these industrial facilities
                2)
                Road traffic was initially completely blocked after February 13th. The top lines of the tram were destroyed up to 75 percent, buried roads or dotted with funnels; Construction authorities counted 1100 of them. All Elbe bridges in the city area were damaged. The center became impassable as a traffic intersection. Work and authority were mainly to be reached on foot through the ruins of the old city. However, rail traffic was temporarily resumed after two weeks. The transportation of troops began again a few days later, because the long-distance routes through Dresden remained virtually untouched until the March 2, 1945 bombing.

                It's about an interrupted city tram gauge, an online translator simply clumsily translates. Not about sorting railways stations.
                But in the same source they quote Churchill:
                “It seems to me that the time has come when the question of bombing of German cities just for the sake of increasing terror, albeit on other pretextsshould be reviewed. Otherwise, we will gain control of the completely destroyed land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious issue against the bombing of the Allies. ... I feel the need for more accurate focusing on military targets such as oil and communications behind the immediate combat zone, rather than on simple acts of terror and senseless destructionno matter how impressive they are ”
                1. Olgovich 14 February 2020 12: 36 New
                  • 6
                  • 10
                  -4
                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  And it dawned on you that the Germans themselves, since you decided to operate on a specific German source, they say in this source that
                  It was only as a result of this attack that the military-civil significance of the railway connection through Dresden was effectively interrupted.

                  And this is about April 17th, and not about February.

                  ONCE AGAIN FOR THE TANKIST:
                  дer Straßenverkehr war nach dem 13. February zunächst vollständig blocked.. Alle Elbbrücken im Stadtgebiet waren beschädigt. Das Zentrum war als Verkehrsknotenpunkt unpassierbar geworden. Der Eisenbahnverkehr wurde jedoch nach zwei Wochen behelfsmäßig wieder in Betrieb genommen (Railway traffic was re-commissioned two weeks later)..

                  Everything applies - FEBRUARY!

                  The cessation of traffic after April 17 is the result of ANOTHER raid on the restored network

                  Got it?
                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  What turned out to be industrial facilities destroyed - an accident, they simply bombed inaccurately and bombs hit these industrial facilities


                  This fact of destruction I showed and accurately showed.

                  And the fact that by chance / no, according to FIG!

                  ONCE AGAIN! -Moving through the most important pristine node Germany-STOPPED for a long period of time-for a week (although one day is a huge victory!).

                  The military industry-STEEL (workers died). Panic, resources being spent on repairs / repairs, etc.

                  Is that BAD for the Red Army ?!

                  The fact that the Germans died is calm ate / drank / walked August 23, 1942 (the day of the erasure from the land of the Stalingrad inhabitants) - so, alas, yes, WAR, yeah.
                2. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 13: 06 New
                  • 3
                  • 2
                  +1
                  For a non-tanker, two weeks is about urban road infrastructure. Military logistics restored in a couple of days. You are stubbornly trying to ignore what is highlighted for you in the text.
                  All that you said can be achieved without erasing residential areas.

                  And your position is such that she then and all the crimes of the Nazis to justify, and that-this is a war. Have you read Churchill’s words above? Re-read
                  “It seems to me that the time has come when the question of the bombing of German cities just for the sake of reinforcing the TERROR, albeit under other pretextsshould be reviewed. Otherwise, we will gain control of the completely destroyed land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious issue against the bombing of the Allies. ... I feel the need for a more precise focus on military purposes, such as oil and communications behind the immediate combat zone, rather than on simple acts of terror and senseless destructionno matter how impressive they are ”


                  Terror under other pretexts. Anderstend?
                3. balunn 14 February 2020 13: 34 New
                  • 3
                  • 2
                  +1
                  Yes, calm down already. This comrade and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will justify.
                4. Octopus 14 February 2020 16: 25 New
                  • 4
                  • 2
                  +2
                  Quote: balunn
                  the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki will justify.

                  Atomic bombardments of ChiN are considered justified. They are considered Japanese. But there are more Japanese patriots in Russia than in Japan.
                5. chenia 14 February 2020 18: 39 New
                  • 0
                  • 1
                  -1
                  Quote: Octopus
                  Atomic bombardments of ChiN are considered justified. They are considered Japanese.


                  So they are perverts. I feel they are asking for it, well, for the kit.

                  Here many justify the Yankees and Britons, and so these are war criminals. The Germans and Yapps deserved, no doubt. We cut out the officers (yupp can have all the military), the whole government and the emperor to stake, that's right. And so, they pissed bombing covered objects (in 1944 the peak of production in Germany). and on a peaceful place they were drawn back. In essence, this is their principle in subsequent wars and conflicts.
                6. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 47 New
                  • 1
                  • 0
                  +1
                  Quote: chenia
                  We cut out the officers (yupp can have all the military), the whole government and the emperor to stake, that's right

                  Well, you see what horrors you offer. And in real life, the losses of Japan are very small compared with Germany, not to mention the different angles there under one roof. So they did everything right.
                7. chenia 14 February 2020 19: 04 New
                  • 1
                  • 1
                  0
                  Quote: Octopus
                  So they did everything right.


                  No, it’s not right (here not only a moral moment, but also legally unclean).
                  That. what I voiced is the punishment of the direct culprits (but they laundered them, they found scapegoats, as it always happens), and the peaceful people (also indirectly guilty) must suffer indirectly (deprivation and not deliberate death).
                  And when purposefully kill civilians is a violation of all the rules and from here without trial. Consider the collective responsibility of the military.
                  Yes, the Yankees themselves were horrified at first by the doctrine of Arturchik, considering it criminal. But the inexpressive power of old habits prevailed.
        2. Olgovich 14 February 2020 14: 03 New
          • 4
          • 8
          -4
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          For a non-tanker, two weeks is about urban road infrastructure.

          For a particularly durable tanker lol, with the translation:
          der Straßenverkehr war nach dem 13. Februar zunächst vollständig blockiert.
          Traffic was initially completely blocked after February 13.


          In this, chop on the nose, in the same paragraph o February 13:
          Eisenbahnverkeh is wurde jedoch nach zwei wochen behelfsmäßig wieder in betrieb genommen

          (Railway traffic was re-commissioned through two weeks)..

          Eisenbahnverkehr is a RAIL traffic, not a mountain road.

          And these are THOUSANDS saved OUR lives
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          And your position is such that she then and all the crimes of the Nazis to justify, and that-this is a war.

          My position is simple:
          movement through the most important untouched hub of Germany -STOPPED for a long period of time-for a week (although one day is a huge victory!).

          The military industry-STEEL (workers died). Panic, resources being spent on repairs / repairs, etc.

          Is that BAD for the Red Army ?!

          answer the question!
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          Terror under other pretexts. Anderstend?

          terror is not good.
          And the trains of the Nazis stopped, GOOD!

          Is it clear for you? am
        3. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 15: 14 New
          • 5
          • 2
          +3
          In this, chop on the nose, in the same paragraph o February 13:

          and in the same paragraph
          Troop transportation began again a few days laterbecause intercity routes through Dresden remained virtually untouched until the March 2, 1945 bombing

          Is there such a text, "not a tanker"?
          terror is not good.
          And the trains of the Nazis stopped, GOOD!

          http://militarymaps.narod.ru/maps.html
          In February, the main line for the transfer of troops to the eastern front ran along the lines of Frankfurt-Nuremberg (and then either to Vienna or Prague), Hanover-Berlin, Leipzig-Berlin, Verona-Vienna. At the Yalta Conference, General Antonov told the Allies a request to paralyze the operation of transport hubs Berlin's и Leipzig. We did not have Dresden on our list. Since we have not seen expediency for ourselves, just look at the map to understand this. General Dean just in a day, February 12, put us before the fact that Dresden would also be bombed.
        4. Olgovich 14 February 2020 16: 07 New
          • 3
          • 7
          -4
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          and in the same paragraph

          It finally came to light that it was about the RAILWAY? And you carried nonsense about
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          two weeks is about city ​​road infrastructure
          ..
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          Troop transportation began again a few days later,
          ..

          Not by train (two weeks were gone!) And a few days later.
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          In February, the main line for the transfer of troops to the eastern front ran along the lines of Frankfurt-Nuremberg (and then either to Vienna or Prague), Hanover-Berlin, Leipzig-Berlin, Verona-Vienna. At the Yalta Conference

          who needs it?
          We read the Germans themselves
          Dresden railway junction was the third largest railway transshipment point in the German Reich. [3] Railway lines to Berlin, Prague, Wroclaw, Warsaw, Leipzig and Nuremberg intersected here.b. Since rail systems in other cities have already been severely damagedrail Transportation in the Leipzig - Berlin - Dresden area has mainly been carried out since 1944 through the freight and sorting park Dresden-Friedrichstadt, the main railway station and the railway station Dresden-Neustadt .

          In addition, the factories provided industrial activity in Freilat and mining in the Ore Mountains, as well as industrial areas of Heidenau, Pirna, Radebeul, Coswig, Bautzen and Görlitz. Dresden's large industrial companies were linked byHez coal station with Alberthafen and a cargo station in the suburbs of Leipzig (Neustadt). Dresden was the residence of the Dresden Reichsbaden Directorate, which organizedand railway operations in most of Saxony and in the northwestern Sudetensky area. Deutsche Reichsbahn also operated a repair shop and a railway depot in Dresden. Locomotives and wagons from more vulnerable areas of Germany were parked there

          They know better what and how. at them.

          And the Americans knew that Dresden is the only most WHOLE node:

          City Population in 1939 Bombs dropped, tons
          Berlin 4 339 000 67 608
          Hamburg 1 129 000 38 688
          Munich 841 000
          Cologne 772 000
          Leipzig 707 000
          Essen 667 000
          Dresden 642 000 7101 (five times less than essen and rpr

          He got ...
        5. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 18: 08 New
          • 3
          • 1
          +2
          Maybe it will reach you that rail transport is, among other things, urban rail public transport (tram, metro, etc., in particular to Germany, there is the so-called S-Bahn - urban rail). And if you read the paragraph completely, you will see, along with the sentence pulled out by you, a text stating that now people could get to work only on foot. This paragraph is about destroyed urban transport infrastructure. She was restored for two weeks. Apparently because it is less priority than the military

          the epicenter did not fall on the train station with a sorting center, nor did the military facilities in the north, by the way.
          Not by train

          Yes, teleportation good
          A few days later

          But the same result was achieved by bombing, as in October or January. Only at the same time did not need to destroy the city.
          You yourself cited the report of the Americans. And I wrote to you about the contents of the table with goals. The industry goal was in April. In February - residential areas. Do not say why? Here you can’t even say that the conditions for bombing are poor and missed instead of industrial areas and ended up in residential areas.
          who needs it?

          Well, you are talking about armies not relocated to the east through Dresden. The only problem is that if you look at the maps (and they were given to you for that), it is clear that this does not affect whether Dresden is on the map or not on the situation on the eastern front. No way. And indirect evidence of this is in the request for a struggle in communications, we did not consider Dresden as a target for the bombing.
        6. Olgovich 15 February 2020 10: 45 New
          • 3
          • 6
          -3
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          Maybe it will reach you that rail transport is, includinge, urban rail public transport (tram, subway etc., in particular specifically to Germany there is the so-called S-Bahn - urban railway)

          You still read about the tram on the camomile lol, it is written about him there Februar 1945 Dresdner Straßenbahn (Dr tram), but there wasn’t a metro in Dresden.
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          . This paragraph on destroyed urban transport infrastructure

          About destroyed transport within the city and in February, the following is listed: Trambridges w / roads.

          the historian A. Isaev writes the same:
          the restoration of the functioning of Dresden as a transport hub required two weeks of round-the-clock work

          Further the same railway mentioned in April raids.
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          Well, you are telling about armies not relocated to the east through Dresden.

          I DO NOT say, but I will repeat for the frontal tankmen, but the GERMANS, again:
          Dresden railway junction was third largest rail transshipment point in the German Reich. [3] Rail routes to Berlin, Prague, Wroclaw, Warsaw, Leipzig and Nuremberg crossed here. Since rail systems in other cities have already been seriously damaged, rail transport in the Leipzig-Berlin-Dresden area has mainly been carried out since 1944 through the freight and sorting fleet of Dresden

          and look at the party! This is the largest railway interchange!

          Quote: A vile skeptic
          that it doesn’t affect whether Dresden is on the map or not on the situation on the eastern front in February 1945. No way

          lol
          You are funny! s This is a denouement on the way to Berlin, to Prague, Breslau, Leipzig and Nuremberg
          Quote: A vile skeptic
          And indirect evidence of this - in the request for a struggle in communications, we did not consider Dresden as a target for the bombing.

          Lying: there are requests for a strike on all communications, And in PRIVACYBerlin and Lepzig.

          Tired of:

          You go on mourn on the dead German workers of military enterprises, etc.
          and I I will rejoice The SAVED Lives of OUR soldiers.

          Everything on that.
        7. Foul skeptic 16 February 2020 14: 04 New
          • 0
          • 0
          0
          it is written about him there

          So I told you what was written about the destruction of the tram tracks.
          writes the same historian A. Isaev

          Show me Isaev’s book, where he parses it on the basis of documents.
          A link to an Izvestia article will not be considered what the historian Isaev writes.
          This is the denouement on the way to Berlin, to Prague, Breslau, Leipzig and Nuremberg

          This does not play a role without reference to theaters of war and the dispersal of forces.
          We look "A collection of materials on the composition, grouping and regrouping of the ground forces of fascist Germany and the troops of its former satellites on the Soviet-German front for the period 1941-1945. Issue five."
          After February 14-15, within two weeks, the Germans did not transfer troops from the reserves to the eastern front. In addition to the redeployment of the 6th SS Panzer Army from the Koblenz region to the Komarno region, where it strengthened the 6th Army of the Army Group South, on February 17, attacking the troops of the 7th Guards. Army of the 2nd Ukrainian Front.
          Do not want to tell how you get from Koblenz to Komarno via Dresden? And most importantly - why.
          You are lying: there are requests for a strike on all communications, and in PRIVACY, for Berlin and Lepsig.

          A person who calls I. Franko “blue” very easily calls others liars. There was a concrete list of such SPECIFIC "particulars", in particular, for example, a request for a raid on the Vienna Industrial District on February 13, which was done by the forces of the 15th American Air Army. This raid helped us, because it did not allow us to tighten our reserves to Budapest, for which the fighting had just ended.
          You continue to grieve over the dead German workers of military enterprises, etc.
          and I will rejoice at the SAVED lives of OUR soldiers.

          Yes, you do not care about Soviet soldiers from a high bell tower. Crocodile tears.
          Just remember (more precisely, find out) that by 1945, 20% of the workforce in Germany was constituted by ostarbeiters and prisoners of war, since the Germans by that time had been indiscriminately raked to the front to make up for losses.
  • Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 11: 25 New
    • 5
    • 2
    +3
    Refute Source: HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945 BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN
    “Heavy raids were caused as a result of raids on the city’s railway infrastructure, which completely paralyzed communications,” “railway bridges across the Elba River - vital for the transfer of troops - remained unavailable for traffic for several weeks after the raid

    Yes, I really liked the footnote number 51 to this text.
    Under it appears Supporting Document No. 3.
    And what is it, what can be seen in it to understand about bridges on the Elbe - but it is unknown))
    But in this source in the first table you can see the schedule of the bombing of American aircraft (only American, because the Americans launder themselves, and throw stones into the garden further on the British). And it is clear that the stations were the target on 7.10.44/16.01.45/14.02 and 3,5/XNUMX/XNUMX. And there was no such disaster for the city. But on XNUMX, the City Area was added to the station. Moreover, XNUMX times more bombs were sent to the City Area than to the train station and marshalling yards.
    But industrial areas were bombed (again from the table) only on April 17, 1945.
  • The leader of the Redskins 14 February 2020 09: 32 New
    • 2
    • 1
    +1
    The term BARBARHOOD is always relevant ... Not only in the Middle Ages ...
  • Livonetc 14 February 2020 06: 16 New
    • 7
    • 1
    +6
    Scum.
    Just scum.
    1. Grandfather 14 February 2020 06: 30 New
      • 6
      • 2
      +4
      Germans need to show these photos day and night, maybe then they will reach someone they are friends with.
      1. Livonetc 14 February 2020 07: 02 New
        • 15
        • 1
        +14
        See Vereshchagin's picture “Suppression of the Indian Rebellion” (execution of sepoys).
        The British squealed hysterically when this painting was exhibited.
        1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 11: 34 New
          • 4
          • 2
          +2
          This one of the pictures of the trilogy of executions of Vereshchagin, the other “The Execution of the Conspirators in Russia,” was not shown to the general public.
          1. Livonetc 14 February 2020 11: 41 New
            • 4
            • 1
            +3
            "It was exhibited in London in 1887 and provoked a fierce protest, newspaper battles, almost a trial."
            It was stored in the USA and then its fate is lost.
            According to one version, bought by shaving and destroyed.
            However, here she is.

            And below is an article on those events.
            https://topwar.ru/86706-vosstanie-sipaev-1857-1859-godov.html
            Anglo-Saxons crap, crap and will crap.
            Most conflicts and geopolitical knots of the 20th and 21st centuries were created either by them directly or with their active participation.
  • serg.shishkov2015 14 February 2020 06: 20 New
    • 4
    • 5
    -1
    When I found out the details of this tragedy, I was in complete shock !! I couldn’t sleep peacefully for two weeks !! Barbarism! a crime that cannot be forgiven! Something beyond!
    1. balunn 14 February 2020 13: 43 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      But Dresden rose from the ashes wink
  • Pessimist22 14 February 2020 06: 24 New
    • 8
    • 4
    +4
    They didn’t get much if Germany and its population did at least 10% of what they did on the territory of the USSR, they would have been different by now, Japan are animals in general, they had to throw one kid for every city and nobody would have bought were now.
  • Jurkovs 14 February 2020 06: 29 New
    • 5
    • 2
    +3
    The Japanese do not remind the Americans of Hiroshima, but the Germans of Dresden.
    1. bessmertniy 14 February 2020 06: 48 New
      • 5
      • 3
      +2
      Afraid to remind! negative And it would be necessary!
    2. BAI
      BAI 14 February 2020 09: 27 New
      • 4
      • 4
      0
      Japanese do not remind Americans of Hiroshima

      The Japanese are increasingly inclined to think that their USSR was bombing. Soon, the USSR will be accused of bombing Dresden.
      1. chenia 14 February 2020 10: 19 New
        • 2
        • 4
        -2
        Quote: BAI
        Soon, the USSR will be accused of bombing Dresden.

        The documentary on “History” is the bombardment of Dresden, who didn’t speak about the bombers (the general term is the Allies, and in the text this includes ours). But immediately reported later. that a few days later the Russians entered the city. It seems that they did not breach, but a hint. what did the red army do.
        1. chenia 14 February 2020 10: 43 New
          • 1
          • 1
          0
          Quote: chenia
          in a few days


          In May! In the manipulation.
      2. Nehist 14 February 2020 11: 14 New
        • 6
        • 1
        +5
        Perhaps it’s enough to repeat the nonsense that the Japanese do not know who bombed Hiroshima from Nagasaki? They know and remember very well, and on occasion, they will remember
        1. fruit_cake 15 February 2020 23: 24 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          they remember, but they say that they did the right thing, that they bombed them, the Americans significantly brainwashed
  • husband 14 February 2020 06: 34 New
    • 12
    • 16
    -4
    If we had 500 such long-range bombers and 30 aircraft carriers like the Anglo-Saxons
    the war would go in a different scenario. And as if we would not apply them in Germany? Why can they suddenly burn our cities and villages in the hundreds and thousands, and we will not answer in the mirror?
    1. Chervonny 14 February 2020 06: 54 New
      • 12
      • 6
      +6
      Quote: sot
      If we had 500 such long-range bombers and 30 aircraft carriers like the Anglo-Saxons
      the war would go in a different scenario. And as if we would not apply them in Germany? Why can they suddenly burn our cities and villages in the hundreds and thousands, and we will not answer in the mirror?

      From the fact that we are not barbarians, in contrast to the "cultural and enlightened" Europe. Unlike them, we know true human values.
      1. Hantengri 14 February 2020 22: 12 New
        • 2
        • 2
        0
        Quote: Red
        From the fact that we are not barbarians, in contrast to the "cultural and enlightened" Europe.

        Now, I’m probably going to mortally insult your sacred sense of national exceptionalism ... But, the thing is that, from the time of Rurik’s calling, and even more so until that, we were and are exactly the same “barbarians” as our "partners" in the political process. Kind, shaggy sheep in the meat grinder of history do not survive, by definition. Moreover, in the conditions in which we had to survive.
        Quote: Red
        Unlike them, we know true human values.

        Well, how do they, unfinished non-management, to know what "true human values" are! wassat Yes?
        PS You, my friend, either remove the cross or put on your underpants either remove Lenin from Ava, or Nazism from your head.
        1. Chervonny 15 February 2020 08: 31 New
          • 8
          • 2
          +6
          Quote: HanTengri
          I’m probably now to mortally insult your sacred sense of national exceptionalism

          Not much.
          Quote: HanTengri
          we were and are exactly the same "barbarians" as our "partners",

          No. Unlike them, we try to live peacefully. It’s not us, but they everywhere climb and impose “freedom and democracy” while remembering to kill, rob, sow destruction.
          Quote: HanTengri
          , in the conditions in which we had to survive.

          In conditions when the West tried and is trying to impose on us its "values", destroying ours.
          Quote: HanTengri
          or clean Lenin from Ava

          Lenin was not a patriot, right? Lenin did not oppose the "humanistic" intervention of the West in our country?
          Quote: HanTengri
          either Nazism from the head.

          You do not seem to know what Nazism is and have not met such people.
          Quote: HanTengri
          You, my friend,

          And you, my friend, is a liberal and a European.
          1. Octopus 15 February 2020 22: 43 New
            • 4
            • 2
            +2
            Quote: Red
            Lenin was not a patriot, right?

            Some kind of crazy question. To lose the imperialist war and start the civil war is the path of true patriots.
            Quote: Red
            Lenin did not oppose the "humanistic" intervention of the West in our country?

            Lenin led it. German money, English books.
            1. Chervonny 16 February 2020 14: 02 New
              • 5
              • 1
              +4
              Not even interesting. Something new would be written. And then you write all some old myths ...
    2. polar fox 14 February 2020 10: 39 New
      • 3
      • 4
      -1
      Quote: sot
      And as if we would not apply them in Germany? Why can they suddenly burn our cities and villages in the hundreds and thousands, and we will not answer in the mirror?

      An example with the Finns to help you. They didn’t turn the capital into rubble, but they could.
      1. Alexey RA 16 February 2020 14: 29 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Quote: polar fox
        An example with the Finns to help you. They didn’t turn the capital into rubble, but they could.

        No need to give out need for virtue. The ADD in raids on Helsinki showed extremely poor crew training - which actually saved the Finnish capital. In the borders of the city in three raids only 5-10% of the dropped bombs fell.
        1. chenia 16 February 2020 15: 55 New
          • 0
          • 1
          -1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          5-10% of dropped bombs.


          This is an indication that it was not the city that was going to bomb (it was impossible to miss here, even to the most drunk navigator), but they really could not find the planned targets (port, government quarter, industrial enterprises) and, therefore, in the white light like a penny.
          1. Alexey RA 16 February 2020 16: 14 New
            • 2
            • 0
            +2
            Quote: chenia
            This is an indicator that the city was not going to bomb (it’s impossible to miss here, even to the most drunk navigator),

            That's why our aces from the DBA managed to bomb in Finland, planting stockholm. smile
            And you should try very hard not to find a port and a government quarter with its Cathedral in Helsinki. Just this is an indicator of very bad training crews.
            However, if the preparation was a little better, then the city center would definitely not be. For a "dump on a comasco" would give spots a few blocks in size.
            1. chenia 16 February 2020 17: 45 New
              • 0
              • 0
              0
              Quote: Alexey RA
              would give spots a few blocks in size.


              By the way, this is the justification for this type of raid. These are the costs of war. But when it is planned to bombard cities for intimidation (Harris doctrine), it’s different. And the Americans (initially) also considered this approach a crime, then I liked it. In addition, if the city is assaulted (and not surrendered), all responsibility for the destruction of the defenders.
  • Kot_Kuzya 14 February 2020 06: 41 New
    • 9
    • 14
    -5
    Nevertheless, these barbaric bombings of German cities indirectly helped the Red Army, since workers of factories producing military products, as well as potential conscripts into the army and Volkssturm, died in these bombings. And there is nothing to regret the Germans, as if they themselves did not bomb the peaceful Soviet cities. Received deservedly from the Anglo-Saxons. As they say, they sowed the wind, reaped the storm.
    1. Chervonny 14 February 2020 06: 56 New
      • 10
      • 7
      +3
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Nevertheless, these barbaric bombings of German cities indirectly helped the Red Army, since workers of factories producing military products died in these bombings

      In no way did these carpet bombings help the Red Army. The war was coming to an end, there was no point in carpet bombing.
      1. Kot_Kuzya 14 February 2020 07: 16 New
        • 8
        • 5
        +3
        In fact, the Anglo-Saxons began carpet bombing of Germany in the summer of 1943, when the end of the war was not even seen on the horizon. Read at least about the bombing of Hamburg in July 1943.
        1. Chervonny 14 February 2020 07: 36 New
          • 10
          • 5
          +5
          Carpet bombing was not justified, especially in 1945. The allies knew that so many refugees had gathered in Dresden. There was almost no military industry there. Carpet bombing is the war crimes of the Allies and it doesn’t matter when they started. Allies did not achieve anything with the help of these bombings.
    2. Varyag_0711 14 February 2020 09: 17 New
      • 5
      • 7
      -2
      Cat_Kuzya (Kuzma Kuzmich)
      Nevertheless, these barbaric bombings of German cities indirectly helped the Red Army, since workers of factories producing military products died in these bombings
      There were not a bit more or less serious military factories in Dresden, do not repeat the propaganda of Western propaganda!
      1. bubalik 14 February 2020 13: 30 New
        • 6
        • 0
        +6
        There were no serious military factories in Dresden, do not repeat the propaganda of Western propaganda!


        SOVINFORMBYURO summary of May 8, 1945.

        ,,, The troops of the 1st UKRAINIAN front after two days of fighting broke the enemy’s resistance and on May 8 captured the city of DRESDEN - an important road junction and a powerful defense stronghold Germans in Saxony ,,,,

        ,,, Today, the troops of the 1st Ukrainian Front captured the city of Dresden. Two days ago, our reconnaissance units attacked the Germans northwest of Dresden and knocked them out of their fortified positions. Then the main Soviet forces entered the battle. Developing a rapid advance between the Elbe and Mulde rivers, our mobile units and infantry cut the Dresden-Chemnitz motorway. At the same time, our troops launched an assault on the city of Dresden - a powerful stronghold of the German defense. Soviet tankers advancing from the west, in a head-on battle, defeated a group of enemy tanks and broke into the western outskirts of Dresden. Our other parts captured the northern part of the city, crossed the river Elbe from the course and started fighting in the center of Dresden. After two days of fighting, our troops broke the enemy’s resistance and captured Dresden, the main city of Saxony. In the battles for Dresden, the Nazis inflicted heavy losses. Up to two thousand German soldiers and officers were destroyed on the western outskirts of the city alone, 27 enemy tanks and armored personnel carriers were destroyed.
        Dresden is a large industrial center in Germany. It has aircraft manufacturing, weapons, engineering, chemical and other plants. In Dresden, there were more than 600 thousand inhabitants.
    3. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 53 New
      • 1
      • 2
      -1
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Received deservedly from the Anglo-Saxons. As they say, they sowed the wind, reaped the storm.

      How then were the liberators different from the Nazis? When storming either Bucharest or Budapest (too lazy to rummage), it was forbidden for us to use heavy artillery and aircraft in order to preserve the most historical architecture.
      1. bubalik 14 February 2020 13: 59 New
        • 5
        • 0
        +5
        When storming either Bucharest or Budapest (too lazy to rummage), it was forbidden for us to use heavy artillery and aircraft in order to preserve the most historical architecture.
        ,,, maybe it was the other way around ?,, I quoted the Budapest rate directive below.
        1. victor50 14 February 2020 14: 04 New
          • 3
          • 0
          +3
          Quote: bubalik
          When storming either Bucharest or Budapest (too lazy to rummage), it was forbidden for us to use heavy artillery and aircraft in order to preserve the most historical architecture.
          ,,, maybe it was the other way around ?,, I quoted the Budapest rate directive below

          I didn’t see it before writing. If this is genuine, you are certainly right. And I was guided by the data obtained in childhood. Apparently propaganda. hi
  • Valery Valery 14 February 2020 07: 05 New
    • 5
    • 4
    +1
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    But then why did Hiroshima and Nagasaki, apart from field tests, agree with both the author and the scientific director of the RVIO.

    “To show the Soviet Union what would threaten the Red Army if a conflict suddenly arose now between Western countries and the USSR.”


    I agree with the author and with you. But it seems to me there was another reason for these inhuman bombings -
    REALLY LIKE !!
    SIMPLY, HUMAN LIVING, WANTED TO KILL MORE PEOPLE !!
    1. Viktor Sergeev 14 February 2020 07: 54 New
      • 4
      • 5
      -1
      I did not want a simple cold calculation for the future. The Americans did all this in Japan, they also erased cities from the face of the earth (to Hiroshima and Nagasaki), but for some reason everyone is talking about Dresden. There is no anger in politics, there is a calculation.
      1. victor50 14 February 2020 13: 56 New
        • 0
        • 0
        0
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        I did not want a simple cold calculation for the future.

        They generally have a theory that an intimidated and suffering population will overthrow the government. In Vietnam, they professed the same doctrine. Perhaps, it didn’t work anywhere before Yugoslavia.
    2. Octopus 14 February 2020 16: 28 New
      • 5
      • 3
      +2
      Quote: Valery Valery
      REALLY LIKE !!
      SIMPLY, HUMAN LIVING, WANTED TO KILL MORE PEOPLE !!

      Interestingly, your brothers in mind, including Mr. Samsonov, claim that Mr. Churchill was going to put the Germans under arms to continue the war with the USSR. Something strange was Mr. Churchill, controversial.
      1. victor50 14 February 2020 16: 50 New
        • 2
        • 1
        +1
        Quote: Octopus
        Interestingly, your brothers in mind, including Mr. Samsonov, claim that Mr. Churchill was going to put the Germans under arms to continue the war with the USSR. Something strange was Mr. Churchill, controversial.

        He was not going to put the civilian population under arms request .
        1. Octopus 14 February 2020 16: 57 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: victor50
          He was not going to put the civilian population under arms

          That is, senseless terror does not hurt?
          1. victor50 14 February 2020 17: 06 New
            • 0
            • 0
            0
            Quote: Octopus
            Quote: victor50
            He was not going to put the civilian population under arms

            That is, senseless terror does not hurt?

            And what's the pointless terror? You tried to identify the lack of logic with your opponent. I do not see one. If you think that, having learned about the atrocities of the Anglo-Saxons, it was impossible to force the former Wehrmacht to fight against the USSR, then this is no more ridiculous than to force them (the vanquished) to fight for a part of the winners. And the knowledge of the barbaric bombing of civilians did not stop them even from fighting to make their way west to surrender there not to the Red Army, but to the allies. Maybe because the destruction in England and the occupation of France can not be compared with what they did in the USSR?
            1. Octopus 14 February 2020 17: 45 New
              • 4
              • 0
              +4
              You see.
              If the Allies considered the Germans to be allies, then the resources of the Germans must be protected. Because where Hans does not die (because he has already died under the bombs) - Tommy will die. And in particular, there is no need to interrupt communications for refugees, there are not only women and children.

              However, this is exactly what they did.

              I completely agree with the author’s pathos that Harris is a criminal, as well as Churchill who supported him. But logic - the British killed the Germans to annoy the Russians - this is Samsonov’s sick logic. It was impossible to annoy the Russians by killing the Germans in the 45th year. And in other years, too, to be honest.
              1. victor50 14 February 2020 17: 47 New
                • 2
                • 0
                +2
                Quote: Octopus
                But logic - the British killed the Germans to annoy the Russians - this is Samsonov’s sick logic. It was impossible to annoy the Russians by killing the Germans in the 45th year.

                Well, I agree with that. Above, I spoke about one of the reasons for the destruction of civilians.
                1. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 02 New
                  • 3
                  • 0
                  +3
                  About the theory of the orange revolution? Unfortunately, you are mistaken.

                  The Allies did not seek to remove Hitler - many who wanted to sell their homeland to them tried to do this at least 42 years old, but did not sell it. The Allies once made the erroneous, criminal and extremely costly decision on the strategic bombardment of the Reich and could no longer cancel it, even when the madness and futility of this undertaking were obvious to everyone except Harris. Because the recognition of such a costly mistake would naturally raise questions for Churchill's competence, not to mention Harris.
                  1. victor50 14 February 2020 18: 10 New
                    • 1
                    • 0
                    +1
                    What about separate negotiations with Wolf?
                    1. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 24 New
                      • 2
                      • 0
                      +2
                      What about Wolf?

                      1. Wolf was from Kesselring, Italian theater.
                      2. The Soviet side was informed of the negotiations.
                      3. In an alternative story with smart allies, the purpose of these negotiations would be to cut off 3UF 4UF from the Czech Republic and Vienna. At the beginning of the year, this was a very real task. But such tasks were not even considered by Alexander.
                      1. victor50 14 February 2020 18: 48 New
                        • 0
                        • 0
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        1. Wolf was from Kesselring, Italian theater.
                        2. The Soviet side was informed of the negotiations.

                        Sorry, there must be very serious arguments for such a radical revision of an established point of view. Documentary.
                      2. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 51 New
                        • 1
                        • 0
                        +1
                        Where was this your point of view settled, and what does it consist of?
                      3. victor50 14 February 2020 20: 23 New
                        • 1
                        • 0
                        +1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Where was this your point of view settled, and what does it consist of?

                        You made me look at various materials on this issue. Thanks. Established smile no matter how it happened.
  • Lamata 14 February 2020 07: 40 New
    • 3
    • 2
    +1
    there were still fiery vortices that burned oxygen at the surface.
    1. Doctor Evil 14 February 2020 18: 48 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: Lamata
      there were still fiery vortices that burned oxygen at the surface.

      In the forty-sixth, they dug up a bombed shelter. Photos of those that are better not to watch at night. https://oper-1974.livejournal.com/1437977.html
  • Viktor Sergeev 14 February 2020 07: 52 New
    • 6
    • 7
    -1
    The Germans have no right even in a whisper to accuse anyone of atrocities. Bombed, so it was necessary. Could we do this, would also have wiped Berlin off the face of the earth. WW2 turned into a war without rules and allies, and in the end they generally thought about the next. Germany in 1945 is the current Ukraine, when the great fight on foreign territory.
  • rocket757 14 February 2020 07: 57 New
    • 3
    • 2
    +1
    Cousins ​​have always dreamed of waging clean wars ... i.e. until the territory is completely cleared.
    Onizh are such "white, fluffy," cleanliness "love.
    Has anything changed now ???
  • Zaurbek 14 February 2020 08: 09 New
    • 5
    • 3
    +2
    Germany, in this case, received only part of what it deserved. And let THANKS say that they didn’t do this with all soft goals ..... like Hungary. After what they did to the civilian population.
  • Free wind 14 February 2020 08: 21 New
    • 9
    • 3
    +6
    Bombed, correctly done !!!!!!! Buns with eclairs to the Nazis with Yapi sprinkle or what? The unfortunate fascists did not even have bombers, oh, what vile Anglo-Saxons, bombed German cities. Yes, you are in your mind who supports it. The Germans bombed, destroyed thousands of Soviet and European cities and villages, but they didn’t have the unfortunate fascists and bomb carriers. And the damned Americans and the British meanly set up strategic bombers, oh scoundrels. Peaceful Dresden, Berlin, Tokyo, Nagasaki with Shirasimimi, and the Nazi and Yapovsky warriors come from? From the underground bins of the FAU-2 or something. They were called from such cities here. and they destroyed our mothers and grandmothers with you. And when the answer arrived, they ......... were silent and silent, but for some reason ours began to howl, there are no Leberales, but for some reason cheers are patriots, who are you, patriots? And in Japan, they don’t forget who bombed them, there are many museums on the topic of American bombing, and all this goes on in schools, but they know that they deserve it. But here again, oh, what unfortunate mistakes, they had to roll them and ssake on parachutes, to throw off almost all the male population from these peaceful cities fought and slaughtered the civilian population with pleasure. but this is a peaceful city.
    1. chenia 14 February 2020 14: 45 New
      • 1
      • 3
      -2
      Quote: Free Wind
      peaceful German cities bombed. Yes, you are in your mind who supports it.


      There are rules of war. That what. did the allies crime. And if you do not mind anyone, it’s the German military. As Stalin said - (it is necessary to destroy 50 thousand generals and officers of the Wehrmacht.). Do not bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but put the emperor and all the military on a stake. I do not keep SS in the camps, I train for the "Unthinkable" and cut it out without trial. Do not let go of minor criminals and military (prisoners of war), but at least keep ours by the wire until the mid-50s.

      Do you feel the difference?
  • GRIGORIY76 14 February 2020 08: 21 New
    • 10
    • 4
    +6
    Now it’s fashionable to scold the allies who bombed this wonderful city. Apparently it would be better for contemporary critics if Dresden were not touched for a longer time and produced military products as long as possible, and its inhabitants were not demoralized. And yes, this bombing claimed the lives of civilians, but how many of our soldiers did she save?
    And still in August 41, we raided Berlin, dropped bombs, including on the stadium and train station. Will you blame this too?
    1. apro 14 February 2020 10: 15 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Quote: GRIGORIY76
      And still in August 41, we raided Berlin, dropped bombs, including on the stadium and train station. Will you blame this too?

      IVS Stalin did not hide the fact that these bombing was purely propaganda. They had no military significance. And it was not planned to achieve any results. They flew out. And okay. Helsenki was more serious.
  • Avior 14 February 2020 09: 13 New
    • 10
    • 4
    +6
    . The result was appropriate: tens of thousands of civilians died (up to 200 thousand people)

    This is the first time I see such a large number of victims, as far as I know, such a large number was voiced only by Goebbels’s department for propaganda purposes.
    The Allies voiced about 100 thousand, in the USSR 135 thousand, but in both these figures there is more propaganda for various reasons.

    The exact and official German data are generally known - 25 thousand people died, the Germans counted twice, in 1945 and in 2008, the report on the second count was published in 2010, here it is, those who know German can read
    http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/infoblaetter/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf

    Dresden has been listed as an important transportation hub.
    The Soviet forces launched a wide attack on the Germans on January 12, and they needed support in destroying the transport logistics of the Germans near the front, this would save the lives of hundreds of thousands of our fighters, and would accelerate the course of the attack on the Germans, about which our allies turned to the allies at the Yalta Conference.
    Initially, it was about transport hubs in Berlin and Leipzig, then the list was expanded.
    It was decided on strikes
    Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig, Chemnitz in order to destroy the transport infrastructure, if anyone was in Dresden, knows that the transport hub is near the old city, so the city was badly damaged, they could not carry out strategic bombings with high precision then.
    "The purpose of the attack is to strike the enemy where he feels it most of all, behind the partially collapsed front ... and at the same time show the Russians when they arrive in the city, which the Royal Air Force is capable of."

    Pieces were pulled out of this memorandum, it was a duty of the pilots to help the Soviet allies, and the last phrase was that the result of the bombing of Dresden should clearly show ours that the allies support them in practice. And the bombing of the Tnemetsky transport hubs had a very tangible effect, bringing Victory closer.
    hi
    1. bubalik 14 February 2020 09: 42 New
      • 6
      • 3
      +3
      Dresden has been listed as an important transportation hub.
      yes
      ,, The city was an extremely important transport junction in which three major railway lines converged: Berlin-Prague-Vienna, Munich-Breslau and Hamburg-Leipzig.
      ,,, in the first days after the raid, the Dresden military production potential fell by about 80%. Most of the railway stations, freight terminals, depots and warehouses were either completely destroyed or damaged with varying degrees of severity. The Carolabrücke bridge over the Elbe is no longer passable. Other railway bridges were closed for a period of one to several weeks.

      ,,, by 1945 in the city there were up to 110 important factories and industrial facilities. In factories related to the production of military products, up to fifty thousand people worked. In particular, in Dresden were: distributed aircraft manufacturing, chemical weapons manufacturing (Chemische Fabric Goye & Company), X-ray equipment manufacturer (Koch & Sterzel AG), anti-aircraft and field artillery manufacturing (Lehman), perhaps the most important optical factory in Germany (Zeiss Ikon AG), and electrical and mechanical engineering companies (e.g. Gebruder Bassler and Saxoniswerke).

      According to German police, on March 22, 1945, as a result of the bombing, 18 people were found dead in the city. In the period after the bombing until March 375, 31, 1945 people were buried. By 22, another 096 corpses were found during construction work. The current German casualty estimate is approximately 1970.
      1. GRIGORIY76 14 February 2020 10: 34 New
        • 4
        • 2
        +2
        But the author would prefer that all this huge potential be destroyed or taken under control by our soldiers under bullets, fighting for each building.
        1. bubalik 14 February 2020 10: 45 New
          • 8
          • 2
          +6
          ,,, I just can’t understand where these cliches come from request
          the bombing was carried out to intimidate the USSR
          ,,, this version is simply incomprehensible to me. What a thousand strategic bombers can do with the city became very clear after Hamburg in 1943. The Soviet leadership had all the British information about the results of that raid. Dresden was not new.
          They bombed the USSR to get nothing,,, to take the same assault on Koenigsberg, which was not particularly necessary from a military point of view, where about half of the housing stock was demolished by artillery and aircraft a month before the end of the war. Was the military worried that this city would later enter the Soviet occupation zone? Unlikely.
          Soviet leadership forbade destruction,,, I quoted the Budapest directive yesterday. The Soviet leadership was not fools and corpses of the soldiers of the city did not fail, for the sake of historical values.
          1. Foul skeptic 14 February 2020 16: 09 New
            • 0
            • 1
            -1
            You do not see the difference in the point-of-use artillery, which was rolled out for direct fire (even the B-4), or the attack aircraft, or sappers, who destroy the source of fire resistance (namely, the directive you mentioned), and the indiscriminate destruction of the city?
            1. bubalik 14 February 2020 16: 23 New
              • 3
              • 0
              +3
              ,,, the USSR would have as many bombers as the allies would use them, and not artillery.
          2. chenia 14 February 2020 18: 49 New
            • 0
            • 1
            -1
            Quote: bubalik
            take the same assault on Koenigsberg,


            In this case, the city is either surrendered, or the party takes responsibility for the civilian defenders. These are the rules of war.
            If the Allies sent 300 planes to bomb the railway junction and “missed” they wrote off to “happens”. But when purposefully, in order to destroy the city is a pure crime.
          3. valdissumy 20 February 2020 21: 34 New
            • 1
            • 0
            +1
            My father, who took part in the capture of Krakow on January 19, 1945 as part of the 4th Guards Kantemirov Tank Corps, said that only small arms were allowed to be used in urban battles for Krakow in order to avoid the destruction of historical monuments of Krakow, which led to unnecessary casualties.
            When Dresden was captured on May 8, 1945, there were no such restrictions on the troops. There were no long protracted battles for the city. The task was set to take the city as soon as possible and the tankmen did not get involved in protracted battles, crushed the city’s defense from the north-west, leaving the right to “sweep” the demoralized enemy to the infantry. The speed of the offensive allowed capturing one of the bridges on the Elbe without being blown up, which made it possible to take Dresden by noon.
            Leaving one tank brigade in Dresden, the corps was sent to Prague.
            If someone is jarred by the words “capture of Krakow”, then these words are taken from the document “Gratitude of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief,” which is stored with me as a memory of my father.
    2. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 10: 49 New
      • 1
      • 1
      0
      Quote: Avior
      It was decided on strikes
      Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig, Chemnitz in order to destroy the transport infrastructure, if anyone was in Dresden, knows that the transport hub is near the old city, so the city was badly damaged, they could not carry out strategic bombings with high precision then.

      In Dresden, the problem was different: the RAF participated in his bombing.
      From the very beginning, the British chose urban development as their goal. Just because they worked at night, and their average the crews could only hit a target the size of a city (monsters from the 617th can not be taken into account - there were few of them). And the appropriate tactic was chosen: the "gut" of the bombers goes to the landmark - the stadium, after which each squadron turns on its own course and after a certain time has dropped bombs. The resulting "carpet" was supposed to cover the city center.
      The Yankees worked during the day. And their goal was specifically warehouses and a railway junction. True, they also had problems with accuracy (according to the results of the refinery bombing, it turned out that only 2-5% of the bombs fell within the borders of the plant) - therefore, the neighboring residential districts also got it.
      Demolition of urban development Yankees arranged only for the theater of operations. There, yes, LeMay excelled. However, sowing wind you know what is reaping.
      1. Nehist 14 February 2020 11: 18 New
        • 1
        • 1
        0
        So the Yankees worked during the day under bad weather conditions, and that’s why accuracy isn’t a fountain, and the sights at that time were quite noticeable to work with 6000.
        1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 15: 18 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          I read that the Norden scope was second in value after the Manhattan project. The British with 6000 killings in Tirpitz hit.
          1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 16: 39 New
            • 1
            • 0
            +1
            Quote: mr.ZinGer
            I read that the Norden scope was second in value after the Manhattan project.

            So for the sight, a trained crew is still needed. smile
            And you also need to consider that the bombing is not carried out individually, but immediately by the squadron - a huge stain is obtained.
            Quote: mr.ZinGer
            The British with 6000 killings in Tirpitz hit.

            Yeah ... just use these bombs and generally accurately bomb point targets could only two squadrons. In all RAF.
            The rest flew at night and bombed somewhere in the area of ​​markers. Brickhill had a description of the goals that the average pilots bombed: a whole target and a huge spot of craters around it. smile
            1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 17: 25 New
              • 2
              • 1
              +1
              I agree, the crew of B17 (B24), as a trolley bus driver, took off, bombed, boarded. 25 sorties and you are free.
              1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 17: 43 New
                • 3
                • 0
                +3
                Quote: mr.ZinGer
                I agree, the crew of B17 (B24), as a trolley bus driver, took off, bombed, boarded. 25 sorties and you are free.

                Yeah ... only this trolley can suddenly go to Schweinfurt, Regensburg or Ploiesti. Or to Poltava. And do not get off after all.
                1. mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 18: 50 New
                  • 1
                  • 0
                  +1
                  Alas, a trolley bus, but to Poltava, two times was enough
  • Maks1995 14 February 2020 09: 13 New
    • 7
    • 2
    +5
    During the USSR, no such conclusions were drawn.
    Like, they wanted to intimidate purely the USSR.

    The author must have specially forgotten that the USSR itself had such worn out dofig, and not from the Angles at all ....

    They wrote when strategists bombed the system from a height, the accuracy was plus or minus 5 km .......
    And there’s nothing to do front-line over Dresden ...
  • depressant 14 February 2020 09: 19 New
    • 5
    • 2
    +3
    There were three waves of bombing in Dresden, Operation Thunderbolt.
    In the first wave at night, 3749 tons of bombs fell on Dresden (75% of them were incendiary). They were dropped by 1400 bombers. Escort fighters shot people running into the streets from completely burning houses. Three hours later - another raid. Another one through eight. There is also such information: 135 thousand people were killed.
    The Dresden Gallery with Raphael's "Sistine Madonna" turned into ruins. Not only people died - a huge number of cultural values ​​turned out to be destroyed. The remains were saved by the Soviet Army. Saved restored in Moscow. And it became ours. So no, give it away! But they never got theirs back - stolen by the Nazis. They gave it away. I would not give it up.
    1. Avior 14 February 2020 10: 01 New
      • 5
      • 3
      +2
      . The Dresden Gallery with Raphael's "Sistine Madonna" turned into ruins.

      In the Dresden Gallery was. Nice museum. The Madonna of Raphael is in place.
    2. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 11: 02 New
      • 8
      • 1
      +7
      Quote: depressant
      In the first wave at night 3749 tons of bombs fell on Dresden (75% incendiary). They were dropped by 1400 bombers. Escort fighters shot peoplerunning out into the streets from completely burning houses.

      At night, English escort fighters shot people in the city? belay
      1. depressant 14 February 2020 11: 41 New
        • 4
        • 1
        +3
        Colleague, it was.
        As for the works of art, not so many were found in the ruins of the Zwinger Palace and Museum. But they found a map. It indicated where the so-called "red car" with Zwinger's core values ​​was hidden. It turned out, tens of kilometers from Dresden, in a half-flooded mine with a walled entrance. The entrance was blown up and found values ​​in a deplorable state. For restoration, they were taken to the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow. As restoration was done, they were returned to the GDR in portions. Something fell into the Hermitage. I remember that not so long ago there was a scandal over the return of paintings from the Hermitage to Germany. Returned. This despite the fact that the Nazis exported an indescribably huge amount of our cultural property, robbing churches, museums, as well as the homes of private collectors. Including the Amber Room. And supposedly still can not find anything. And we returned. Instead of setting a strict condition: "Find and return ours, return yours." The British do not even think of returning from the British Museum the values ​​of Egypt, looted in this country. Similarly, the American Metropolitan Museum of Art will not return anything. Well, isn’t anything really valuable. And what will be returned to Iraq? There is a huge museum looted! Under orders of collectors robbed. Not so long ago, a museum in Cairo was robbed during a political mess. And what will Syria get back?
        1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 11: 54 New
          • 4
          • 1
          +3
          Quote: depressant
          Colleague, it was.

          The problem is that the limes did not have escort fighters - only nine Mosquito target designators.
          Fighters over Dresden appeared only during the day - American “Mustangs” covered the “boxes” of Yankee bombers.
      2. CTABEP 15 February 2020 01: 04 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        At night, English escort fighters shot people in the city?


        The author seems to have a clinic, I also could not imagine it. Well, this is apparently from the same Goebbels training manual where 200 thousand were killed and the city did not have any military significance.
    3. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 17: 50 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      In the first wave at night, 3749 tons of bombs fell on Dresden (75% of them were incendiary). They were dropped by 1400 bombers. Escort fighters shot people running into the streets from completely burning houses. Three hours later - another raid.

      This is RAF. The first raid was to set fire to the city center. The second is to drive out firefighters and rescuers.

      However, the Germans should be familiar with this tactic. That's the way adherents cult of a warrior, honor and dignity, self-sacrifice in the name of the nation and the Motherland had fun during the blockade. And also by shooting at tram stops and bombing hospitals.
  • mr.ZinGer 14 February 2020 09: 21 New
    • 3
    • 3
    0
    The author retold the obvious things, with obvious conclusions.
  • bubalik 14 February 2020 09: 26 New
    • 8
    • 4
    +4
    ,,, and so what are worn with Dresden?
    ,,, more than in Dresden, the percentage of the population in one raid was killed in Darmstadt and Kassel; more victims were in Hamburg.
    ,, a list of cities in which the area of ​​destruction amounted to 50% or more of the total area of ​​buildings (i.e. more than in Dresden):
    50% - Ludwigshafen, Worms
    51% - Bremen, Hannover, Nuremberg, Remscheid, Bochum
    52% - Essen, Darmstadt
    53% - Cochem
    54% - Hamburg, Mainz
    55% - Neckarsulm, Zoest
    56% - Aachen, Münster, Heilbronn
    60% - Erkelenz
    63% - Wilhelmshaven, Koblenz
    64% - Bingerbrück, Cologne, Pforzheim
    65% - Dortmund
    66% - Crailsheim
    67% - Gisen
    68% - Hanau, Kassel
    69% - Duren
    70% - Altenkirchen, Bruchsal
    72% - Geilenkirchen
    74% - Donauworth
    75% - Remagen, Würzburg
    78% - Emden
    80% - Prüm, Wesel
    85% - Xanten, Zulpich
    91% - Emmerich
    97% - Julich

    Also, the bombing of Dresden was not an exceptional occurrence either in the dropped bomb tonnage or in the number of aircraft involved in this.
    1. Nehist 14 February 2020 11: 03 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      A total of 7,1 thousand tons of bombs were dropped on Dresden from British and American aircraft. For comparison, 67,6 thousand tons were dumped on Berlin, 44,9 thousand tons on Cologne, 39,7 thousand tons on Hamburg, and 37,9 thousand tons on industrial Essen. So Dresden still got off easily.
  • smaug78 14 February 2020 09: 33 New
    • 6
    • 4
    +2
    Again Samsonov perverted everything (((
  • Alexey RA 14 February 2020 10: 28 New
    • 4
    • 2
    +2
    There was no military need for this and subsequent attacks on Japanese cities. The Japanese empire continued to resist.

    But the Japanese disagree with the author.
    Already when the Mitsubishi company began dispersing its plants, Super Fortresses returned. Again and again they bombed Nagoya, as a result of which all communications were hopelessly disabled. Raging fires, piles of debris and destroyed telephone lines have clearly demonstrated this. As a result, a carefully designed dispersal plan shattered into smoke. We have found that it is not possible to relate scattered factories to workshops. All plans of the company and individual factories turned into piles of useless pieces of paper. Since March 1945, an incredible amount of explosives and incendiary bombs fell on Nagoya. The actions of "Super Fortresses" were so effective that in July, Mitsubishi produced a ridiculous number of fighters - only 15.
    Nagoya and Tokyo became the favorite targets of the Americans, they bombed these cities more often than others. The Americans very cleverly chose their goals. These 2 cities were the country's most important nerve nodes. Nagoya was the center of the Japanese aircraft industry. One large factory in Daiko-cho produced 40% of all aircraft engines, while the Oemati factory assembled 25% of aircraft. Tokyo, of course, was the most important military and political center. Continuous raids completely disorganized life in these cities. Government activities almost completely stopped.
    Many factories that have spent considerable time dispersing their machinery and assembly lines now find that they work no better than before. “Superstresses” followed literally every move. As soon as the shops settled in a new place, bombs flew right there. Plant managers were desperately looking for new cities. They set up factory workshops in narrow mountain valleys or placed machines in caves. Ultimately, the industrial dispersal plan failed completely. When we desperately needed as many products as possible, our workers hollowed in the rocks of the shelter. The devastation in Japan was growing every day. Distant base fighters and entire hordes of aircraft carriers joined the Super Fortresses.
    (...)
    It is impossible to pinpoint the effect of the bombing due to the state of terrible chaos in which Japan found itself by August 1945. Over 30% of our aviation industry has been seriously affected. These attacks led to a reduction in production by 7000 aircraft per year. We lost more than 70% of the propellers, which in itself was a terrible blow. Towards the end of the war, the bombing caused disruptions in the production of high-octane gasoline. Although we had excess production capacity, by August 14, 1945, the Super Fortress had destroyed 11 of the most modern refineries. You should not evaluate the total damage to industry by simply summing up the destroyed production facilities. Many plants were useless, having lost the raw materials and machines necessary for normal operation. They suffered from a shortage of workers who fled the cities in fear of new raids.
    By the end of July, approximately 90 cities had turned into funeral pyres. Only 4 major cities in the country remained untouched - Kyoto, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Sapporo. Only random bombs fell on them. Our industry has been strangled. Even entire Tohoku and Hokkaido plants were idle. The machines were inactive because there was no raw material, and most importantly, the transport that delivered their products to Honshu did not work.
    The 4 most important industrial areas of Japan were Tokyo - Yokohama, Osaka - Kobe, Nagoya and Kita-Kyushu. The condition of these cities best reflects the state of Japan itself at the time of surrender. The 5 largest cities, not counting Kita-Kyushu, received almost half of all the bombs dropped by the XII Air Army. The core of these cities, with a total area of ​​103,22 square miles, was completely destroyed. They ceased to exist as targets.
    © Masatake Okumiya
  • Operator 14 February 2020 11: 17 New
    • 3
    • 5
    -2
    Why hypothesize a transport hub / non-transport hub, when it is enough to remember the text of the memorial note of the command of the Royal Air Force, with which the British pilots were familiarized before flying to Dresden:
    "show the Russians when they arrive in the city what the Royal Air Force is capable of"
    1. Octopus 14 February 2020 16: 49 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      show the Russians when they arrive in the city what the Royal Air Force is capable of

      ... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front, to prevent the use of the city in the way of further advance, and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do

      One caveat. The Russians at that time were allies. Only Churchill and the Russians themselves know that the Russians are enemies.

      Given this, the phrase from the memorandum does not contain anything unusual.
      1. Operator 14 February 2020 18: 12 New
        • 1
        • 1
        0
        Since the distribution of the memo, British pilots found out about it.
        1. Octopus 14 February 2020 18: 27 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          Tom learned the British pilots.

          They learned that it is necessary to show the ally who is all fervent, hmm, rowing. No more and no less. As for the Red Army, she could have been shown much more without Dresden at all. It was enough to fly Mosquito a couple of times peacefully.

          Over Baku.

          Well, the Americans had the RB-29J. In general, he could fly a lot.
  • Nitarius 14 February 2020 12: 03 New
    • 2
    • 4
    -2
    nda .... reptiles and there are reptiles the beetle-eyed Satanists of the Anglo-Saxons!
  • Romka47 14 February 2020 12: 06 New
    • 0
    • 5
    -5
    Thanks to the author, I already knew everything, but you set out very compactly and competently. article clearly +
  • prior 14 February 2020 12: 39 New
    • 0
    • 2
    -2
    “Why did the Americans and British destroy Dresden” - based solely on the principles of humanity and humanism.
    True, "humanity" and "humanism" cannibals .....
  • BAI
    BAI 14 February 2020 13: 10 New
    • 8
    • 0
    +8
    tens of thousands of civilians died (up to 200 thousand people);

    In Leningrad, 900 civilians died. Stalingrad was razed to the ground so that the question arose of building a new city in a new place, not restoring the old one.
    No one moaned and did not wring his hands.
    By the way, among 200, how many potential recruits were there?

    The only way to share the author’s resentment is:
    and at the same time show the Russians when they arrive in the city what the Royal Air Force is capable of


    At the expense of "contactless war" - another stupid author. Any state MUST take care of its soldiers. How not to recall General Slashchev: "Big losses are not valor, but a crime."
    Therefore, if it is possible to spend 10 wagons of shells and save 10 soldiers, 10 wagons must be spent.
    It is very bad that we did not have such powerful aircraft as the United States and England. Although in the early 30s we had the most powerful bomber fleet in the world.
    1. Alexey RA 14 February 2020 16: 44 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      At the expense of "contactless war" - another stupid author. Any state MUST take care of its soldiers. How not to recall General Slashchev: "Big losses are not valor, but a crime."

      ... and the one who made the big losses is unsuitable for the position.
      Victory must be achieved with "little blood," for which we receive a military education.
      This original, not to say - criminal, view of the large losses of units as a proof of their prowess is deeply rooted in our old army. This view must be fought, and permanent (I emphasize that it is not accidental, which is always possible, especially with modern technology) large losses should indicate the inability of the commander to lead troops, i.e. about his unsuitability for the post.
      © Slashchev
  • victor50 14 February 2020 13: 19 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    "No more secret orders, ancient magic, the cult of the warrior, honor and dignity, sacrifice in the name of the nation and the Motherland, only consumer slaves subordinate to the dollar and the masters of the United States. It was a murder of the “spirit of the nation"."
    Especially these two utterly “spiritual” nations showed their nobility, honor and military spirit in the destruction of Slavs, Russians, Chinese, Jews. I do not condone the disgusting acts of the Americans and the British. But to write this about the Germans and the Japanese !? Wow - “knights of the world”! Just the fiends of nobility!
  • Rakovor 14 February 2020 13: 40 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    PS why are you yelling?

    Yes, he is sick on the head, what to take from him. A sort of local forum fool.))
  • Hyperborean 14 February 2020 13: 53 New
    • 9
    • 0
    +9
    It’s interesting, but the German bombardment of Stalingrad, with the deaths of tens of thousands of people, is an act of kindness .. By the way, you can do it without aviation, but quite contact .. how the Japs drowned Nanking in the blood .. In general, a very strange article ...
  • Moskovit 14 February 2020 15: 27 New
    • 5
    • 0
    +5
    If you ask me, then I probably blame the Anglo-American pilots. Especially after having been there and having heard a lot of moaning from local guides. Yes, even after a touching story about a British pilot who donated money after the war to restore the local Lutheran Cathedral.
    And if you ask my grandmother, whose Germans burned her native village and killed many villagers, she will have a completely different answer ...
    1. Fishery 14 February 2020 17: 53 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      I don’t blame the pilots, the people are military, and the German population felt everything that they, like not knowing, carried to other nations, so public opinion and historical memory are formed, the Germans obviously will not want to repeat.
  • ABM
    ABM 14 February 2020 15: 29 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    In 2008, an authoritative commission of German historians named the number of probable losses of about 18 thousand people. It is clear that driving a nail into relations between Germany and their Western partners is necessary, but not as clumsy!
  • Fishery 14 February 2020 17: 51 New
    • 3
    • 2
    +1
    I thought the political officers from the history of the CPSU ran out, but no, here's an article for you) I hope the author at least wrote for money)
  • Operator 14 February 2020 18: 30 New
    • 1
    • 1
    0
    Quote: Octopus
    huh

    Aha bully
  • Whitesnow 14 February 2020 22: 07 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    tens of thousands of civilians died (up to 200 thousand people)
    This is according to the Ministry of Propaganda of the Third Empire and Mr. Goebbels. According to the USAF, about 25-30 thousand.
    But you are probably closer to the first.
  • CTABEP 15 February 2020 01: 01 New
    • 9
    • 0
    +9
    There is a total war in which the enemy is not embarrassed to bomb residential areas (hi, London and Stalingrad), to drive non-combatants into death camps, and he does not spare his own, let alone foreign citizens. There is a transport hub, which was hardly touched by strikes before (due to the deep location in the rear), and a couple more transport junctions on its line - Berlin and Leipzig - are destroyed by strikes, disable it - the Third Reich will be cut in two. Well, in addition - in the city there are more than two hundred military factories, incl. Zeiss Optics Factory. It is decided to strike at the city to destroy the transport hub and factories, which is done. 136 enterprises were destroyed, the transport hub was disabled, civilian casualties (and where is it, the civilian population in the total war of the 20th century, where is “all for the front, all for the Victory” for all participants?) According to modern estimates from 25 to 135 thousand people, and the lowest figure is the 2008 assessment by historians commissioned by the city of Dresden (and documents from the time of the war spoke of 20 thousand dead + some number of unaccounted refugees, but hardly hundreds of thousands). For comparison - 90 thousand died in Stalingrad.
    So what the hell do all Germans spare for us? Everyone attacked Kolya from Urengoy, but when the Americans (or Japanese) are killed by the Americans, this cannot be done, they are not anglo-Saxons. This is not even double standards, but insanity. Author - go read modern research on the bombing so that you don’t write numbers of 200 thousand (what didn’t you write half a million, according to Goebbels’s precepts?).
    Believing that it was not necessary to bomb: one life of his soldier is more expensive than a thousand lives of other civilians. Otherwise, we and Marinesco should be recorded as sadistic fiends, there were also civilians and children at Wilhelm Gustloff.
    Those who believe that it was necessary to bomb the troops - I advise you to delve into the materiel, strategists to bomb the troops - are scanty, but a broken transport hub and huge supply problems (including due to civilian losses - there is no one to fix it) is a huge problem.
  • pogis 15 February 2020 09: 53 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    Karma for Stalingrad and thousands of other cities, villages and villages of the USSR destroyed to the ground by the Nazis.
  • Uncle Izya 15 February 2020 10: 29 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Well destroyed and destroyed a pity of course, but who regrets and destroyed thousands of Soviet villages villages
  • nnz226 15 February 2020 12: 23 New
    • 2
    • 1
    +1
    Interestingly, here are the civilians of Dresden ... In 1933-1941 they did not shout: “Heil!”, In 1941 they did not send their fathers, husbands, and sons to the east for estates, where obedient Russian slaves would work, under the whisper of a woman? Among the crews of the Luftwaffe planes, which on August 23, 1942 also demolished Stalingrad (from 40000 to 100000 civilians who did not send men to the west for estates with obedient German slaves died), there was not a single native of Dresden ??? And why lament? The Germans sowed the wind - they received a storm in response! But war is a cruel thing, it was only Russian soldiers who in 1945 could feed German women and children from their kitchens. And the western warriors always and everywhere behaved like that, destroying non-combatants!
  • Steen 15 February 2020 17: 52 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Why did the Germans destroy 1700 !!! cities and 70000 !!! villages and villages of the USSR !!!
    1. Sergey Sfiedu 16 February 2020 02: 46 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      The official version of the Anglo-American Air Force is "the bombing was carried out to destroy industrial potential, disrupt transport infrastructure, disable the skilled labor used in defense enterprises, sift fear and horror among the population, and thereby help the advancing Red Army." It’s easy for us now to scold the Anglo-Saxons, but during the war our soldiers were hardly particularly sorry for the Germans, and our aircraft didn’t do the same just because we didn’t have heavy bombers of any decent amount. However, Helsinki tried to totally bomb, but in Tallinn they could almost.
  • jekasimf 16 February 2020 12: 09 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Looking at these shots, I recall what the Nazis did on the territory of the USSR. And what the Japanese did on the territory of Manchuria and China. Nobody canceled the collective responsibility. Most Germans felt quite comfortable at the time when millions were destroyed. they quite calmly used slave labor exported from the territory of the USSR. If punishment is not taken for "this". Commensurate with the crime, then history will certainly happen again. And I am sorry that the USSR acted with the citizens of the Third Reich much more humane than the allies. Now we are reaping the benefits of this humanity.
  • Volzhanin64 16 February 2020 19: 08 New
    • 0
    • 1
    -1
    These "scum" - the Anglo-Saxons never knew how to fight with an equal rival in strength. The lives of civilians have never been of interest to them, including our time. An example is Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, where they razed Rakku to the earth. Yes, you can look for an excuse that they save the lives of their soldiers, but not at the expense of the excessive victims of the civilian population. Fascist Germany, by the way, was not stopped by the mass destruction of civilians, by the way, including hands of collaborators. (Burned villages in Belarus and Ukraine, concentration camps, an attempt to destroy Krakow, Stalingrad, Rzhev and hundreds of cities and towns on the territory of the USSR)
    Still, the "cultural code" of the Soviet nation, I emphasize the SOVIET, was several orders of magnitude higher than this "cultural" West. How many lives of our soldiers could we save only when defeating the Budapest Nazi group (both German and Hungarian) if the goal was not to preserve the ancient city with its cultural heritage, but to capture the destroyed territory after the work of aviation, artillery and rocket mortars. Unfortunately, at present some of its carriers are trying to abandon it and get rid of what we are observing in the Donbass.
  • Volzhanin64 16 February 2020 19: 08 New
    • 0
    • 2
    -2
    These "scum" - the Anglo-Saxons never knew how to fight with an equal rival in strength. The lives of civilians have never been of interest to them, including our time. An example is Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, where they razed Rakku to the earth. Yes, you can look for an excuse that they save the lives of their soldiers, but not at the expense of the excessive victims of the civilian population. Fascist Germany, by the way, was not stopped by the mass destruction of civilians, by the way, including hands of collaborators. (Burned villages in Belarus and Ukraine, concentration camps, an attempt to destroy Krakow, Stalingrad, Rzhev and hundreds of cities and towns on the territory of the USSR)
    Still, the "cultural code" of the Soviet nation, I emphasize the SOVIET, was several orders of magnitude higher than this "cultural" West. How many lives of our soldiers could we save only when defeating the Budapest Nazi group (both German and Hungarian) if the goal was not to preserve the ancient city with its cultural heritage, but to capture the destroyed territory after the work of aviation, artillery and rocket mortars. Unfortunately, at present some of its carriers are trying to abandon it and get rid of what we are observing in the Donbass.
    1. EvilLion 17 February 2020 08: 32 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      The command of divisions on the city (there are negligible few historical objects in it against the background of ordinary residential development) would not give a damn in any case, the only reason why Budapest or Vienna was not wiped off the face of the earth is the lack of necessary means for this, in the conditions of a total ground war in the USSR it was simply not possible to build thousands of strategic bombers and fighter coverings for them, after the capture of the cities it would be somewhat strange to blow them up. Well, at least until his departure. Yes, and a 152 mm shell takes out a couple of floors at the building, after the fighting, the city in any case should be rebuilt. No one would check the presence of women or children in the building where the Hungarian settled. Just when 1000 planes suddenly flies to you, you won’t run away, but before approaching the Red Army with its howitzers, you can pack your bags or sit down in the basements.
    2. Prometey 18 February 2020 07: 53 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: Volzhanin64
      These "scum" - the Anglo-Saxons never knew how to fight with an equal rival in strength.

      And in order to always fight an equal rival, you need to search or slaughter your enemies with the whole arsenal of existing weapons? And what were Japan and Germany not equal rivals? Japan itself, like a petty gopnik in the gateway, attacked and got what it deserved. The fact that Germany could not oppose anything to American bombers at the end of the war is its problems.
  • EvilLion 17 February 2020 08: 24 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    The author is clearly mentally ill. In all these cities there were military factories, transport hubs, of which replenishment went to the front. They needed to be destroyed, and the USSR did not do this simply because of the lack of strategic bombers. The population can not cause any pity. We have killed too many of our owns to spare the fascists.

    Well, Dresden is not the most affected in the list of destroyed fascist cities, there were objects with a large percentage of destruction, just like Hiroshima in terms of the scale of destruction in Japan, only the fourth.

    The military-industrial potential of Germany and Japan practically did not suffer in these attacks.


    Bullshit. Just the industry, the Americans hollowed out with a bang.

    The Germans hid the military factories underground in the rocks. The military industry of the Reich worked right to the very end, like the entire German war machine.


    The German military industry has rolled downhill sometime since September 1944. As a direct result of the loss of French factories and bombing. Less tanks and planes for scum to kill our grandfathers. As for the delirium about plants in the rocks, the author clearly never even went through the checkpoint, and has no idea what it really is, a large plant.

    Thanks to the American bomber command for hundreds of thousands of saved Soviet soldiers!
    1. Prometey 18 February 2020 07: 48 New
      • 0
      • 0
      0
      Quote: EvilLion
      Thanks to the American bomber command for hundreds of thousands of saved Soviet soldiers!

      I fully agree with you. These snot zadolbali on innocently killed "civilians." Yes, from the point of view of modern warfare, the destruction of civilians is a crime. Then there was a total war and there was no point weapon, so they did not understand the means. How many Soviet civilians before this died under German bombs, no one counts. But compassionate cry for Dresden and Hiroshima.
      1. Octopus 18 February 2020 19: 20 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Quote: Prometey
        point of view of modern warfare - the destruction of civilians is a crime

        And that war too.
        Quote: Prometey
        therefore, they did not understand the means.

        Damn in vain they did not understand. Housebombing is not only a crime, but also error. And much more long-playing than during WWII.
  • Prometey 17 February 2020 10: 23 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    It’s such a fashionable trend to write about the barbarism of the allies with Dresden. Here they say - look, there’s nothing holy for them, they bombed innocent residents.
    And did anyone remember at least once why the Nazis dropped bombs on the inhabitants of Stalingrad in 1942? But this is a war, there was an important transport hub and it had to be bombed, the Germans could not otherwise. Ugh, sick.
    The Britons and Americans avenged the Nazis for the civilians of the USSR. And they were our allies and, therefore, acted in our interests.
    1. DDT
      DDT 10 May 2020 17: 26 New
      • 0
      • 0
      0
      Quote: Prometey
      It’s such a fashionable trend to write about the barbarism of the allies with Dresden. Here they say - look, there’s nothing holy for them, they bombed innocent residents.
      And did anyone remember at least once why the Nazis dropped bombs on the inhabitants of Stalingrad in 1942? But this is a war, there was an important transport hub and it had to be bombed, the Germans could not otherwise. Ugh, sick.
      The Britons and Americans avenged the Nazis for the civilians of the USSR. And they were our allies and, therefore, acted in our interests.

      I do not quite agree with the statement that they "bombed Dresden for us" to hell. Rather for their own. For London, so that it would not be disgraceful in the future, to bombard their sacred Anglo-Saxons ... So that they would not touch them in their thoughts. But an article full of nonsense. The schoolboy wrote Toli, the liberalist fulfills the order ...
      But why Dresden, not Bonn? And because the city was in the zone of Soviet occupation, it had to be rebuilt again. Restore order. The idea was that the USSR should have erased Hamburg or Munich to hell with Stalingrad. It’s a mystery to me why we didn’t. Either they didn’t want to spoil relations “with a friend Bill,” either we didn’t have such opportunities, or they simply regretted the Germans. hi
  • meandr51 18 February 2020 18: 33 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    AU then in the Eastern zone, Dessau was brutally bombed together with the Junkers plant. To our not got. I was there, talking to the locals.
  • meandr51 27 February 2020 11: 47 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    [quote = Octopus] [quote = meandr51] she could transfer part of the Kwantung army to the islands ... [/ quote]
    How? Dig a tunnel? Mr. Nimitz, what do you think is doing there?

    Well, Japan still had a fleet ... And the operations of the American fleet came with varying success and various misunderstandings (Pussy, Iwo Jima).
    [quote = meandr51] I do not think that Roosevelt and Truman "did not understand something" when they asked Stalin to start a war with Japan [/ quote]
    Truman all his life making excuses, they say, deceived him. Roosevelt was posthumous for high treason in Congress.

    How did the Soviet deceive him? What did you keep the promise on time? Or do you mean the stupidity or fraud of the American command?
    [quote = meandr51] then the Kuril Islands took [/ quote]
    I took the Kuril Islands in peacetime, I recall. Melt at the same time every sixth. If we do not forget that Japan capitulated on August 14, the successes of the Red Army at the end of the summer take on a slightly different flavor.

    For "peace" time, there are too many drowned and killed. It’s like with pregnancy: either there or not. The Japanese fought seriously.
  • Icelord April 20 2020 17: 45 New
    • 0
    • 1
    -1
    Ahhh .... Samsonov, but I think that for a self-confident ignoramus
  • DDT
    DDT 10 May 2020 17: 20 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Yes ... I began to read by a sinful thing, I thought that the German was writing, well, or at worst the Italian. No, it’s like Samsonov’s surname ... A new "boy Kolya" from Urengoy on VO drew? request