Question of Soviet attack aircraft during the Great Patriotic War

In March 1941 - a few months before the start of the war - made its first flight of the Su-6. This is an experienced armored attack aircraft. In this case, it is worth paying attention to the fact that the party task to create such a machine was received by the design bureau in March 1940. And in just a year, a combat vehicle was not just created, but also ascended into the sky.

The Su-6 attack aircraft had high hopes during the Great Patriotic War, which began in June 1941. But with the necessary number of attack aircraft for the needs of the air fleet the country’s issue has not been resolved.

Why is the fate of "flying tank»With a piston engine was in many ways sad? One of the best experts in the country shares his thoughts on this subject. stories military aviation Oleg Rastrenin.

The conversation is about stormtroopers in general, which for the Soviet Union during the war could play a crucial role.

At the same time, during the lecture, a picture emerges that resembles a description of what can be called undercover games of “apparatchiks”, because of which the Red Army of the USSR Red Army during the war did not receive what it could get and that would allow significantly increase the effectiveness of its use against enemy land military equipment.

Questions and answers about attack aircraft from Oleg Rastrenin in the Archive Revolution program on the Tactic Media channel:

Comments

[Amateur]

The Su-6 attack aircraft had high hopes during the Great Patriotic War, which began in June 1941. But with the necessary number of attack aircraft for the needs of the country's air fleet, the issue has not been resolved.

What, Mr. Rastrenin, after 75 years, found a mass-produced engine for him?

[Vladimir_2U]

But Rastrenin is still a connoisseur of Soviet assault aviation, his "Attack Aircraft of the Great Patriotic War" is an excellent book.

[Amateur]

But Rastrenin is still a connoisseur of attack aircraft

Does anyone argue with this? But if M-71 were brought to a series, then the composition of aviation in the Second World War from the USSR could be different: I-185, Su-6. As well as more powerful modifications of the La-7 and Tu-2

[Vladimir_2U]

Unfortunately, there was sadness with motors, if not trouble. At the same time, a lot of effort and time was spent on the engines that were promised, but did not go into the series.

[Amateur]

I am generally surprised by the technical policy of the NKAP. They issued technical specifications for the design of aircraft with non-existent engines (the same M-71) and at the same time there were no technical specifications for aircraft with an outstanding M (Ash) -82 engine. Su-2 and Tu-2 are a drop in the ocean. And the Lavochkinsky 5,7 is a palliative, an adaptation of the engine to a glider, designed for another engine. Because of this, an absolutely unacceptable thermal regime in the cockpits of the "shopkeepers". In such "saunas" only Soviet hero-pilots could fight.
Well, the leadership of the NKAP and the Air Force after the war were greatly offended when they were dismissed and put in prison.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Amateur

TU they issued for the design of aircraft with non-existent engines

The work was intended for the future, these motors were still in metal, but the series was not extended and it turned out how it happened.

Quote: Amateur

absolutely unacceptable thermal conditions

The designers were rather dismissive of the needs of the pilots, there, if Tupolev was not mistaken on the Tu-95, he applied some frankly crappy solution, while he almost got into his face for that, did not want to change it.

[Dmitry V.]

Quote: Amateur

I am generally surprised by the technical policy of the NKAP. They issued TUs for the design of aircraft with non-existent engines (the same M-71) and at the same time there were no TUs for aircraft with an outstanding M (Ash) -82 engine.

And now, under the Su-57 engine already existed?

It is a common practice to order a plane for a promising engine.
Since an airplane is created faster than a more complex engine, an airplane without an engine is a common practice, respectively.
The Su-57 with the engine of the first stage is a modern example.

[NF68]

Quote: Amateur

Does anyone argue with this? But if M-71 were brought to a series, then the composition of aviation in the Second World War from the USSR could be different: I-185, Su-6. As well as more powerful modifications of the La-7 and Tu-2

This was not such a simple matter. Even the BMW concern in the second half of the 30s did not bring to mind the 18-cylinder BMW-140 engine, and in the 40s did not manage to make the more promising BMW-802 in an acceptable time frame.

[Aleks1973]

Question of Soviet attack aircraft during the Great Patriotic War ....
The question is why, to whom or what? What is the title? Victim of the exam?

[Conell f]

Just take a look at the legendary "Cobra" !!! In the military review, they wrote a lot about combat vehicles, but about the cobra ... no words.

[Engineer]

For some reason, I immediately remembered the video about the work of KB Shopkeeper in the Second World War from the same channel ... also everything is one-sided

[DimanC]

Look at the whole series (this video is almost the fourth in a row) - everything is not so one-sided

[Fedorov]

And then there was the Su-8, it's just a beast with a battery of 4 guns. But the refinement of the M-71f engine was stopped, and there wasn’t much need for them in 1944, the IL-10 managed. But almost everyone received prizes in the design bureau.

[DimanC]

The last phrases of the video clarify a lot (we are talking about a conversation with one of the factory workers), that there were no special problems to launch the M-71 into the series, only "no command was given." If we also add phrases here that the M-82 was also long and painfully driven, then it becomes clear that such a powerful engine as the M-71 in the Red Army Air Force was not really needed by someone ...

[KERMET]

The video also has an explanation for this - in 41 it was necessary to make a choice, the plant would not have pulled two more new motors, they chose a tit-in-hand, and an engine with a smaller diameter was easier to adapt to production aircraft. But then the NKAP did not want to break the established production with such difficulty, continuing to emphasize the quantity, and not the quality level. Perhaps it was after the war that Shakhurin came back to haunt

[KERMET]

And it’s interesting to speculate how the decision was made in the 41st. Most likely, Stalin made the final decision, because it was on him in May 41. N.I., Secretary of the Perm Regional Committee of the CPSU (B.) Gusarov about the fate of 19 plants. He hardly knew much about the prospects of fine-tuning the M-71 and M-82, but he also had aviation advisers whom he trusted?
And there are two motors that at that time passed 50 hours of testing, by that time Polikarpov and Sukhoi had already laid eyes on the M-71 and M-82 - nobody at that time. But the 82nd has a trump card - it's a small diameter motor! If you look a little earlier and see a document such as
"Proposals of the Subcommittee on the Armament System of the Red Army Air Force" dated May 9, 1940
in section 3. There are interesting lines on aircraft engines:
"Set the overall diameter of air-cooled motors for combat aviation no more than 1300 mm"
M-71 - 1380mm
M-82 - 1260mm
I think the M-71 could be considered more like a motor for transport or bomber aviation, but the M-82 is a station wagon, you could try to shove it even on the Yak

[DimanC]

In this sense, it is also interesting to consider who set the size of 1300 mm and why. Those who proposed, already knew about the work on the M-71 motor? Why exactly 1300, and not, for example, 1400? The devil, he is known to be in the details ...

[KERMET]

It is difficult to say why it was 1300mm ... Maybe at that time aviation theorists figured it out this way, Polikarpov also went against the recommendations of that time by the wing load on the I-185.
In the report M-71 appears (unlike M-82), and as one of the important directions, the authors of the report are chiefs of the Air Force and Air Force Research Institute, the full text of the report is on the Internet

[Pavel57]

Two details should be remembered. The excess M-82 was formed due to the priority of fighter aircraft and, in particular, the refusal of mass production of Tu-2 at the beginning of the war.
And the second trifle - with the M-71, all fighters are lost in comparison with the I-185, which was originally designed for the M-90, but with the M-71 it was an outstanding fighter of its time.

[Pavel57]

I-185 was designed for the M-90.

[agond]

And yet, for the attack aircraft, the most optimal design would be the cockpit in front of the engine at the rear, under the cockpit a gun with an emphasis on the engine, the cockpit would have to be lifted, but a similar design was only tried on the R-39 Aero Cobra fighter.