The story from the liberals: another "exposure" of the plans of the Stalinist "blitzkrieg"

The closer the 75th anniversary of the Great Victory, the more creeps out from everywhere those who seek, even so, at least, but to cast a shadow on this fateful for the whole world historical event. He also strives to pour mud on him and his creators. It is expected that the liberal “party” giving birth to insinuations will be especially zealous in this dubious field.

Once again, "specialists" specializing in the "desacralization" of the Great Patriotic War noted in this matter. Data published on the Echo of Moscow radio station. The blog of one of the regular authors there, Andrei Illarionov (ex-adviser to the president of Russia, who felt like an implacable opposition), received a new "revelation": he, you see, revealed the "Soviet plan of attack on Germany!" That's right: no more, but no less. This "talented economist" is haunted, as Illarionov is called by some of his associates and associates, the laurels of the fugitive scout Rezun. Another exposer of the Stalinist “blitzkrieg” plans ...

Let us proceed, however, to a concrete analysis of the fact that this gentleman, who stubbornly clambers into questions of history, seems to consider almost the sensation of the century. He operates on a “most important document” - “Considerations for a plan for the strategic deployment of forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies.” We will make a reservation right away: this paper was never signed or endorsed by anyone (which, however, Illarionov honestly admits, presumably, solely because he would be caught instantly on such a fraud), dated "presumably May 15, 1941." But maybe not May ... Or maybe not the 15th ... The authorship seems to belong to the then drug addict of defense, Marshal Semen Timoshenko and the head of the General Staff of the Red Army Georgy Zhukov. But again, due to the absence of their signatures on the document, it is problematic to say anything.

But can this really stop a man like Illarionov? In his блоге he uploads a photograph of the corner of which card with an inscription by hand: “Executor Major General Vasilevsky. 15.5.41. " Everything - the "proof" is ready. After that, our “historian”, with all seriousness, begins to assert that Zhukov personally scribbled certain places of “considerations” of the rules. Well, he was standing nearby!

As a matter of fact, Mr. Illarionov intends to make all the furore by sending his readers to that paragraph of the document, which says about the need “in no case to give initiative to the German command, to forestall the enemy in deployment and attack the German army at a time when it will be in the deployment stage and will not have time to organize the front and the interaction of the armed forces ... "That's it! Stalin, his generals and marshals taken red handed! You could say caught by the hand. You see: they didn’t prepare for defense, but intended to attack the “poor” Nazis themselves, who by that time had pulled colossal forces to our borders “with exclusively peaceful goals.”

This is the place our "hero" calls the "Soviet plan of attack on Germany". Illarionov quite seriously asserts that the army in the deployment stage is "an army preparing for an attack, but not yet starting it." Therefore, attacking it is pure aggression! Honestly, the way it is ... The case clearly smacks of either, excuse me, the clinic, or absolutely fantastic amateurism. Even assuming that preventive action plans against the Nazis were drawn up, it remains only to regret that they did not have time to put them into practice. In May 1941, the war with the Third Reich was already absolutely predetermined and inevitable. If the People’s Commissariat of Defense and the General Staff did not develop its plans, then they would be worthless. Moreover, in the context of the geopolitical situation prevailing in Europe in the 30s of the twentieth century, literally every country had plans for military action against almost all its neighbors! Such was the then reality. Often these plans lacked several weeks or even days to be realized: how, for example, the intentions of Britain and France to attack the USSR during the 1940 Winter War. Nothing, then we were our allies. Sort of…

And finally, the main thing: in the same "considerations" we are talking about the construction of new fortified areas, including in 1942. In principle, after these words alone, the question of the “aggressiveness” of Moscow’s plans in the spring of 1941 is not subject to discussion. If a grief economist trying to play war with history were at least half a gram versed in the true basics of military affairs, he would know: the desire to forestall the enemy, seize strategic initiative is the basis of military success, and not an indicator of “aggressiveness” at all. There can be no talk of any "plan of attack" as applied to the "considerations" issued by him for such. At least because the hypothetical offensive operations described in them, which the Red Army was supposed to carry out in 1941 in Europe, remained plans.

Comments

[carstorm 11]

that's why operational plans that are 70 years old and other developments of which hundreds can be painted for different occasions are secret, so that crazy civilians, God forbid, get and wave them. such plans were and will be. in any country with normal GS.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: carstorm 11

that's why operational plans that are 70 years old and other developments of which hundreds can be painted for different occasions are secret, so that crazy civilians, God forbid, get and wave them

No, they are not crazy, they are Russophobes, traitors and the "fifth column", the same as a scorpion gnawing off its tail (they were probably not loved in childhood).

[Varyag_0711]

The fact of the matter is that in any normal GS there should be plans for all occasions, including a preemptive strike. And there is nothing wrong with that, on the contrary, the GSh is bad, in which there are no such plans. But to draw conclusions about aggressiveness on the basis of these plans is utter nonsense.
In general, it is high time for all these "whistleblowers" to be imprisoned under Article 354.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation for the rehabilitation of Nazism. We have an article, but they are either shy or afraid to apply it. Under this article, our entire liberal crowd falls, led by the former Minister of Culture himself (behind the board of Mannerheim). The entire administration of Rossosh can and should be put under the same article. Yes, there are many others, but we are unlikely to wait.
And the closer the 75th anniversary of the Victory, the more such manure will appear in the media. Because they are not afraid of anything. And why should they be afraid if, in fact, they are supported at the very top.

[wolf20032]

Where are they, plans for all occasions? There is no signed, here it is. Bad or good. Show off an unsigned state defense plan.

[VS]

there was no defense plan)) There was and is - a RESPONSE blow plan))) with little blood on a foreign land ...

[wolf20032]

Where can I see him? What is it called?

[VS]

It was not declassified - it is stored in the archives of the General Staff)) But - Marshal Zakharov wrote about him - "The General Staff on the Eve of the War" and the officers of the General Staff of the General Staff - "1941 - lessons and conclusions"))) lessons - here - http: // liewar .ru - with all schemes))
This is a separate "southern" option - from Meretskov's Views of October 40th))

[wolf20032]

T.N. The unsigned "considerations" suddenly ceased to be secret. Is the country's defense plan still secret? 79 years have passed since the beginning of the war, what's the secret? And why did the Red Army on 22.06 begin to act without any plan? Show the public the country's defense plan, thereby knocking out all arguments from the hands of the damned detractors of glorious history. What Marshal Zakharov wrote there is absolutely not interesting. Where is the country's defense plan? Signed by the author and approved?

[VS]

and who needs the drafts of the Considerations?)) from them you can understand the essence of the plans of the General Staff - the military, but for this you need something else besides to know)) And to declassify themselves are covered - NOT))) Otherwise, it will fall apart - but - not Rezun's nonsense, but - officially approved myths about the beginning of the war - that STALIN was to blame for everything))) The Red Army began to act exactly according to the PLAN of the General Staff)) And the reasons for our defeats were laid in the plans of the General Staff))) Well, if you don't see the plans for a long time, study those who studied these plans - Zakharov and the officers of the VNU General Staff - "1941 - lessons and conclusions")) The plan for which they tried to start fighting was not a defense PLAN .. it was OUR counter-blitzkrieg!))

[wolf20032]

Clear. There are no defense plans for the country. And there wasn’t. But there were considerations. And there is. Even if not signed. It is impossible to declassify the country's defense plans drawn up 80 years ago ??)))) Then it is impossible to declassify Kutuzov’s plans for Borodino. I am not going to study the plans set forth from the words of some, even three times brilliant uncle. Well, if the Red Army acted according to these plans, then the plans themselves - with the smell of brown substance. That's when the Red Army acted according to defense plans, it had brilliant victories. Stalingrad and Kursk are examples of this. Strange, no one plans these defensive operations, with the subsequent counter-offensive, to keep it secret. They can be found and found. Not with anyone's words. And plans for the summer of the 41st year are a secret. What’s secret there? Protect this village, city, crossroads until death, or until victory. What could be secret there? But if there are several other tasks, then yes, there is something to keep secret.

[VS]

Yes, everything is simple - if you declassify those Alans, then - the 1st cries of idiots Thu about the USSR was preparing an attack FIRST again aggravated))
2nd - you have to call the REAL guilty of the defeat of the beginning of the Second World War and this is NOT Stalin will already))) And who needs it - whitewash the tyrant ??)))
so - study the work that were on these plans with vultures for many years)))

[wolf20032]

Well, if these plans contain instructions on the Red Army’s attacks on the Wehrmacht, access to the Baltic Sea on that day, the seizure of oil fields in Romania, the occupation of Krakow, then yes, they will escalate, only not idiots, but those who will consider it plans defense of the state will look, to put it mildly, cretins. What is characteristic, I do not consider these plans to be bad and even more so criminal. I believe that back in the year 89, it was necessary to voice these plans and state - and what's wrong with that? Yes, we wanted to destroy the enemy on its territory, there is nothing shameful. And eliminate the centuries-old threat to the country from the West. But no, at first they managed it, and then they began to deny the obvious. And a lot of dumbheads with them.

[rotmistr60]

radio station "Echo of Moscow"

It's high time to do something with this gadyushnik. It is clear that they will not be closed for fear of Western reaction, but it is time for a couple of employees to be invited to the courts for systematic libel, provocative statements, etc. There would be a desire, but you can always find a reason. All the anti-Russian scum reaches for them like flies on feces. The "liberal" (hostile to Russia) get-together is feeling too at ease under the screams about GBN and political persecution.

[Spektr]

These suckers are not capable of this. They have more than enough turbofan substance. The smell of their stench extends to the entire CIS and far abroad. And they do not touch them, not because the West will speak, but to show what kind of liquid the stinky liberda itself and their associates are. If they had not been shown and not allowed to tell them from each iron, then they would have long ruled the country and would have collapsed at the direction of Fashington. And so our people are not stupid and sees what this party of penguin fans love is worth. And they themselves try to arouse disgust for them with their behavior.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Spectrum

These suckers are not capable of this.

Rather, they are adherents of Goebbels.

[Spektr]

In principle, this is one and the same.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Spectrum

In principle, this is one and the same

Yes, horseradish radish is not sweeter.

[Spektr]

Simply, all the same Faberge, only the view from the side.

[DNS-a42]

Quote: rotmistr60

radio station "Echo of Moscow"

It’s time to do something with this viper. It is clear that they will not close, fearing a Western reaction

The main owner of this adder is Gazprom-Media Holding

[Egoza]

Quote: DNS-a42

The main owner of this adder is Gazprom-Media Holding

So that? There is no one to summon a mongrel to the leg? And the Serene One cannot express his "fairy" to Gazprom?

[DNS-a42]

What for? It is naive to believe that Echo broadcasts contrary to the authorities.

[Slon379]

A resource absolutely necessary and safe for the authorities. We show that with freedom of speech everything is ok, while we understand that apart from a smile and sometimes irritation, it does not cause anything.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: DNS-a42

What for? It is naive to believe that Echo broadcasts contrary to the authorities.

For this, there are different types of "propaganda ministries". This is how it was with Dr. Goebels.

War, political struggle, the eternal problem of “where to get food?”, Inflation - all this should have remained in the past. In the totalitarian Reich, the subjects of the Führer should have felt like Christ's bosom.
The Nazi elite earnestly believed that the average Reichsburger needed first of all home comfort and a good mood. Therefore, the Imperial Ministry of Propaganda decided to focus on entertaining radio programs. Goebbels constantly insisted on this during the meetings of the Radio Commission. As a result, the number of soap operas, concerts and sports broadcasts has steadily increased in radio broadcasts. By 1940, the share of political communications, including the Fuhrer’s, fell to an insignificant level - less than two percent of airtime.

Does it remind you of anything? Although the last two lines here are not very suitable.

[Mestny]

But what, reminds. The late USSR, with the exception of the last two lines.

[Gardamir]

Which Fe? Nevertheless, they already know and have been convinced more than once of their own.

[Sergey Olegovich]

Quote: DNS-a42

The main owner of this adder is Gazprom-Media Holding

That is, it is not a jurisdictional structure ...

The closer the 75th anniversary of the Great Victory, the more creeps out from everywhere those who seek, even so, at least, to cast a shadow over this historic event, crucial for the whole world

Even here on our site we have such creatures, where do such "clever people" come from ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Sergey Olegovich

We even have such creatures here on the site, where such "clever people" only come from

From there, those who wished the Japanese emperor health in 1904, those who helped the German Kaiser in 1914, those who worked and glorified Hitler from the Great Patriotic War, those who enthusiastically applauded Gorbachev, those who were tempted by Yeltsin’s drunken antics, and who built him Mausoleum in Sverdlovsk. The same creatures have not disappeared, they live and work near you, and on the site on our site and on other sites (even some nicknames do not change). There was one period under I.V. Stalin, when they were burned with hot iron.

[Alexander I]

The meeting of minority shareholders of Ekho Moskvy approved the decision, as a result of which the owner of the radio station became a 100% Russian company, editor-in-chief Alexei Venediktov expects that all the necessary documents to change the ownership structure will be completed by March 31, 2017. As if foreign agents have no influence, purely internal opposition for the money of the national property.

[Mestny]

Opposition - it means against the current government. Liberoids, grant-eaters and stuff, of course.
They are against the government, and the "communists" are against the government. Does it all work together?
They are for grants, but what are the "communists" for? Is it for justice and for all the good?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Mestny

Opposition - it means against the current government. Liberoids, grant-eaters and stuff, of course.

Whatever you call it, but enemies.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: AlexanderI

No matter how the foreign agents have no influence, the purely internal opposition is for the money of the public domain.

So they have already come out of the shadows, and are conducting propaganda openly.

[Slon1978]

It’s wrong to invite to the courts, since it is only about interpreting certain events. Their deliberate hyperbolization (exaggeration) to create the necessary emotional color of events, where certain plans, protocols and other secondary documents, which are always huge in the pre-war period and which only replenished the archive, are given out as proof, so as not to replenish the ballot box. In the absence of an obvious lie, to call such people to court - you only know who to pour water into the mill. Such as Illarionov, Ekho Moskvy and the like receive funding from the funds of Khodorkovsky, Soros, various kinds of grants and direct financing from abroad. They must be deprived of this funding, confiscated funds. To channels and radio stations to give warnings and then to deprive broadcast frequencies. And then let THEY go to court and bear the burden of proof that they were wrongfully treated. The court, a case that will take years - it may even win the court and restore broadcast frequencies - to the delight of the ECHR and the sponsors. But a week later a new warning and again the deprivation of the ether - and welcome back to court. Such a process is fraught with a waste of money on the courts and a lack of output of content - sponsors usually do not like this. It is trickier to act, and to call for the conscience of such scum is tantamount to throwing beads in front of pigs, because people are paid and funded.

[Grandfather]

Quote: rotmistr60

radio station "Echo of Moscow"

It's high time to do something with this gadyushnik. It is clear that they will not be closed for fear of Western reaction, but it is time for a couple of employees to be invited to the courts for systematic libel, provocative statements, etc. There would be a desire, but you can always find a reason. All the anti-Russian scum reaches for them like flies on feces. The "liberal" (hostile to Russia) get-together is feeling too at ease under the screams about GBN and political persecution.

What can you do with it if Gazprom maintains it? and what are you going to do with the authorities, which plywood the Mausoleum to the Victory Parade? don't you think that these are all the same people? and the authorities simply flirt with the people, throwing up patriotic measures in order to avoid mass indignations, because their deeds run counter to the aspirations of the people.

[Whalebone]

This "gadyushnik" is owned by Gazprombedia and will live happily ever after, because it is better to listen to EM than the conventional Voice of America. Therefore, it will never be closed - liberal steam must be released in a controlled manner. Venediktov goes to the Kremlin, communicates with the AP. The red line will not cross. So everything happens within the framework of information support for "managed democracy."

[Den717]

Quote: rotmistr60

All anti-Russian scum reaches for them, like flies on feces.

That's why they endure. It's simple. At a critical moment, it is useful to know the fifth column by name. And then they themselves come and "register". A kind of repetition of the "Trust" operation. Normal people have long known how to evaluate news from Venediktov & Co. And these "considerations ..." have already been rinsed by all and sundry for thirty years. They are poured from empty to empty, apparently there is nothing to do ...

[strannik1985]

Formally, Illarionov is right, the army was really deployed for active actions, it is simply silent about the root cause.
For some reason, by default it is believed that defense is literally standing on the defensive without assuming active actions against the enemy.

[Whalebone]

Naturally, Stalin was not going to bury 3 million soldiers in the trenches. 2 blitzkriegs converged. The Germans turned faster, it saved them for as much as 3 years.

[strannik1985]

Naturally

No, "Barbarossa" was accepted for development regardless of the intentions of the USSR, Hitler himself declared that he wanted to defeat Russia in order to deprive England of the last hope of revenge.

[Whalebone]

All minusers marked? And here is a direct speech from the IVS:
"Peaceful policy ensured peace for our country. Peaceful policy is a good thing. For the time being we pursued a line of defense - until, until we rearmed our army, provided the army with modern means of struggle. And now that we have reconstructed our army , saturated with technology for modern combat, when we have become strong - now we need to move from defense to offensive. Conducting the defense of our country, we must act offensively. From defense to move to a policy of offensive actions. We need to restructure our education, our propaganda, agitation, our press in an offensive spirit. The Red Army is a modern army, and a modern army is an offensive army. "

[VS]

IIIii?))) Cho say something you want?))

[AU Ivanov.]

According to the Soviet military doctrine
and active maneuverable defense was supposed.

[strannik1985]

According to

According to the cover plans, i.e. at the time of concentration (while the units and formations arrive from the PPD to the front), then the attack (according to "Considerations ...) whether the enemy crossed the border independently or not.

[rocket757]

There are a lot of selling skins and there is nothing new in this ... p-fe.

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

in Europe, in the 30s of the twentieth century, the geopolitical situation, literally every country had plans for military action against almost all of its neighbors! Such was the then reality.

So now nothing has changed, and similar plans are also being developed.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Sydor Amenpospestovich

So now nothing has changed, and similar plans are also being developed.

I read somewhere the phrase that in every self-respecting General Staff there are plans even in case of an alien invasion.

[Artemy Morozov]

Poor Adik got angry and let's hastily build crematoriums, burn cities and people, defending himself against a hated enemy! Echo, ah ... wake up madhouse!

[g1washntwn]

Illarionov give a noose and a bayonet. Show the latest plans for US preventive strikes on Russia and send to ... just send. In contrast to his pseudo-historical fabrications, both plans left in the past and modern American plans for attacking Russia are a reality.

[nikvic46]

If we do not deal with individuals like Solzhenitsyn, then we will continue to wallow in this muddy water. "You can say anything about Solzhenitsyn, but he is supported by the state" -Kedmi. And you can add the Solzhenitsyn Prize for Russian writers. His biography is not quite understandable. "Was a teacher of mathematics in a scuffle .." Who did he teach?

[Plantagenet]

. "I was a math teacher in a scuffle .."
He worked as a teacher in exile. In a ball - a physicist. In Marfino.

[strannik1985]

If we do not deal with individuals

What does it mean to figure it out?
Such have always been, are and will be. Educational program is needed on the basics of military art, in particular, why the starting point of the war is mobilization, and not the border crossing by troops.

[stalki]

If we do not deal with individuals like Solzhenitsyn, then we will continue to wallow in this muddy water. "You can say anything about Solzhenitsyn, but he is supported by the state" -Kedmi. And you can add the Solzhenitsyn Prize for Russian writers. His biography is not quite understandable. "Was a teacher of mathematics in a scuffle .." Who did he teach?

I threw the "gulag archipelago" into the bucket with my wife, her book by the way. At first she was surprised, then after listening to some information about this author, she decided to approach this issue more rationally and we sent this talmut to a pack of waste paper for the school.

[evgic]

Everyone who wanted to figure out a person has long figured out. This is a shitty writer, liar and camp snitch. In combination, the grandson of a large landowner, whose father most likely died on the side of the whites, hence the hatred of the Soviet regime.

[Dmitry Potapov]

With the same success, one can now declare the Baltic states, Poland, Georgia, Ukraine, and all, all, all in preparation for war and aggression against Russia.

[Free wind]

Any person thinks what to do in a given situation. Even a minor child calculates the subsequent events, stroking a dog or well, it can even bite. Any player, even in dominoes, even in chess, calculates his moves, and calculates several options. The command and the general staff also developed several options for the development of events, of course there were different options and it was naturally impossible to accept everything as a guide to action. Naturally, there can’t be a signature anywhere. That's who the story rewrites ..............

[Lamata]

Also at this time was the rearmament program of the Red Army, and attack at this time? it’s not even a sofa historian, but some kind of new formation.

[Egoza]

What a powerful time it was! How strong was I.V. Stalin! To this day they are afraid of the dead! They are shaking that they will pay tribute to him. That mongrel yapping.

[Lamata]

Yeah, we will celebrate Victory Day, of course, and the Commander-in-Chief will at least say a thread on the central channels, or the war itself won.

[Gardamir]

Of course by itself, what don’t you know? The Russians put on the Yegoryevsky ribbons and won under tricolors and portraits of Tsar Nicholas. But Stalin only got in the way.

[Lamata]

Imagine did not know !!! This is a new word in the history of the Second World War, passed me, I repent.

[Gardamir]

What are you! The Germans are not blameless; ask who they want, at least from kolizurengoy.
And finally the victory was accomplished under the command of Boris Siniy. He even erected a monument, the name of the Center of Boris.
And that Commander-in-chief has nothing to do with it. Try to come with his portrait.

[mr.ZinGer]

Of course, there was a plan, for this, the General Staff exists to develop methods of waging war, both offensive and defensive, depending on the situation. War should not be fought on a blank slate. The way of presenting this fact as exposing the "whistleblower" is strange.

[parusnik]

Are liberals not in power?

[Lamata]

So soon the word liberal officer will make obscenity

[Eug]

One of the options for the RESPONSE to the concentration and deployment of German troops near the borders of the USSR and nothing more. The General Staff is obliged to develop all sorts of options for military action without emotion, but the country's leadership chooses. From a military point of view, a preemptive strike has a very effective and demoralizing effect, so it is not surprising that such an option existed. Moreover, no one conducted the further development of this particular STRATEGIC DEFENSE OPTION. And only primitive formalists or “specialists” with a predetermined result can identify a preventive strike with aggression without a comprehensive consideration of the situation. I am sure that even now in the headquarters safes and in the computing centers of the most peace-loving block, at least several plans of potential databases are stored, among which there are "preventive" ones, but in their understanding.

[Romka]

Why be ashamed of these plans? We argue by the criteria of the world today, but then there was the "law of the jungle" - not you, it means you. If you are a three times neutral country, you will have to take sides if something happens.

[Jurkovs]

“Executor Major General Vasilevsky. 15.5.41 "

From the biography of Vasilevsky it is known that he received the Major General on 01.08.41/XNUMX/XNUMX.
You can’t read the article further.

[icant007]

Quote: Jurkovs

From the biography of Vasilevsky it is known that he received the Major General on 01.08.41/XNUMX/XNUMX.

He became a general back in the 40th. There is no mistake. Before that, he had the title of divisor. In the 40th, most of the top command staff was re-certified for general ranks.

[ccsr]

Quote: Jurkovs

From the biography of Vasilevsky it is known that he received the Major General on 01.08.41/XNUMX/XNUMX.

Vasilevsky himself writes differently:

The Great Patriotic War found me in the service of the General Staff, as the deputy chief of the operational department, in the rank of major general. On August 1, 1941, by a decision of the Party Central Committee, I was appointed head of the operational management and deputy chief of the General Staff

Vasilevsky A. M. The Matter of Life.

[Jurkovs]

Our generals were complete idiots, otherwise there would not have been a catastrophe for 41 years. In this case, they did not come up with anything new at all, but in these "Considerations ..." they just repeated the plan for the strategic deployment of the tsarist army in case of war with Germany. Then it was assumed that due to the greater development of the railway network, the German army, after the announcement of mobilization, would quickly reach the border and interfere with our deployment. To prevent this scenario, the tsarist generals created troops to cover the border. The only task that was, after the declaration of war and mobilization, was to quickly bring the number of divisions to the regular one by calling from the surrounding area, to cross the border and tie the German troops in battle, in order to enable the Empire to complete the general mobilization, recruitment of new divisions and their pulling to the border. In fact, the border guard troops were "whipping boys" and nothing more. The Tsar's staff officer Yegorov, who became the Chief of General Staff, was shot, thank God, thoughtlessly repeated this scenario and left a legacy to Shaposhnikov and Zhukov. So such a document was quite possibly considered by Stalin, but was not signed.

[icant007]

Quote: Jurkovs

Our generals were complete idiots, otherwise there would not have been a catastrophe for 41 years. In this case, they did not come up with anything new at all, but in these "Considerations ..." they just repeated the plan for the strategic deployment of the tsarist army in case of war with Germany.

German generals also did not come up with anything new. The blitzkrieg theory is even older than our 1914 plans.
Which does not stop some from chanting the German General Staff, considering it a storehouse of military thought.
The point is not in the plan, but in the possibility of its implementation.

[AU Ivanov.]

The German GS in its theory of blitzkrieg borrowed a lot from Triandafillov.

[ccsr]

Quote: Jurkovs

Then it was assumed that in view of the greater development of the railway network, the German army, after the announcement of mobilization, would quickly reach the border and prevent our deployment. To prevent this scenario, tsarist generals created border guard troops.

Actually, Germany had nothing to do with it, because there were cover plans in the Far East. And their development is connected with the purely economic capabilities of our country - the territory is huge and it’s too ruinous to contain a large army to repel any aggression, that’s why parts of the cover near the state border were created that allowed mobilization to begin with the outbreak of the war. And in later Soviet times, there were cover plans in all border districts, which confirms the reasonableness of such actions.

Quote: Jurkovs

In fact, the border guard troops were "whipping boys" and nothing more.

This is a dubious conclusion, because the best officers were assigned to cover regiments, and exercises and trainings were conducted there more often than in other parts of the district. So they were obliged to die, but not to retreat, and it was unlikely that when they took positions on time, it was easy to knock them out. The tragedy of June 22 just began with the fact that a large number of connections did not reach the positions they intended in time, which led to defeat.

Quote: Jurkovs

The Tsarist staff officer Egorov, who became the Chief of the General Staff, was shot dead, thank God, thoughtlessly repeated this scenario and left Shaposhnikov and Zhukov a legacy.

You are either a great "theoretician" or a dreamer - even in the GSVG, where there were only deployed and manned units 100% in peacetime, there were tank cover regiments. These were the most combat-ready units of the group of forces, which overlapped the summer standards for 5-10 minutes on the rise, and within half an hour after that they entered into battle with NATO on the border. And this is in the presence of nuclear weapons in the group, by the way. You seem to have a vague idea of ​​what the cover plans are for ....

[Stas57]

So what, were there plans to attack and?
Any country has such plans always, at all times, and it's okay, the only question is what was done for this - the answer, nothing

[Sergey Zhikharev]

There is a problem in interpretation.
According to Suvorov-Rezun, Stalin / the USSR, at first, just wanted to attack Germany, but the Germans were ahead. Further more. Stalin made the greatest combination (Hitler to power, Germany conquers Europe), and it turns out that Germany is not so guilty of the war. In fact, Germany is only the victim of cunning manipulation by the USSR (for which the USSR deservedly received from Germany). And if Germany is a victim, and the USSR is a manipulator, then the contribution to both victory and war can be reviewed.
And please, the USSR is guilty not of wanting to attack Germany, but of provoking the entire Second World War.

[wolf20032]

Not only is Mr. Author contradicting himself, so is the style of the text, as from the newspaper Pravda.

[Constanty]

I do not really understand the problem and "feeling" in what? Each General Staff develops plans and different scenarios.

As for the Soviet attack on Germany, Stalin himself spoke about this in a speech to the officers, pointing out, perhaps, in May 1942. Even if the Soviet strike was to happen in 1941 (as the deployment and development of the army may indicate), everyone will win. Hitler would have shot himself in the head much faster, Nazism would have fallen in 1941, the Germans would not have been able to kill so many Jews and Poles, and Victory would have cost much less blood from the Red Army. The same pluses for everyone
So it remains rather sad that the plans were not implemented!

[ccsr]

Author:
Alexander Kharaluzhny

But can this really stop a man like Illarionov? In his blog, he uploads a photograph of the corner of a card with a handwritten inscription: “Executor Major General Vasilevsky. 15.5.41. " Everything - the "proof" is ready.

You are one of the few who drew attention to such details, because most people in military maps do not understand well and believe in any stupidity that is presented by false researchers, such as Illarionov. First of all, it is striking that the map is without a coordinate grid, which means it is the usual administrative, and not the General Staff. Secondly, the inscription is made obliquely, and this is a violation of the rules for processing service cards in an NPO (MO), which confirms the fake that was cooked up somewhere in a hurry. The only option is that civilians could prepare it somewhere in some people's commissariat and bring it for approval to the people's commissariat of defense, but in any case, this card cannot be an official document confirming that we have a war plan in 1941.
By the way, now another scammer from history is discussing such a fake, who made a conclusion on the basis of an unknown German map created by someone unknown in May 1941. And on its basis, he made a stunning conclusion that our intelligence did not know about the plans of the Germans, because in the intelligence report for the month of May there is a mismatch in the numbering of German corps and armies with the data on this map.
https://topwar.ru/167648-1941-razvedka-o-korpusnyh-shtabah-protivnika.html#comment-id-10112656
In general, the madhouse has risen to a significant date - various swindlers crawled out, dreaming of fortunating our Victory.

[Vadmir]

A penny worth to the General Staff, which does not develop plans for all occasions. If a preemptive strike plan did not exist, then Zhukov was a bad chief of the General Staff. Why are we ashamed of our story? How many plans were there for an attack on the USSR, besides Barbarossa? And the Poles were planning and the British. And after the Second World War, how many plans were there, starting with the "Unthinkable" plan? The United States generally planned to bombard our country with nuclear bombs, even when we did not yet have nuclear weapons.
It is time to declassify the documents of the period preceding the war, and stop shy of their own history.
Fact - Germany attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941.
And unrealized plans are just plans whether they were or weren’t it absolutely does not change anything.

[al.cozeev]

Today one of them wrote to me. When I asked him the question, "" Who was attacked by the Russian Empire, the USSR and the Russian Federation "" ??? Enjoy your answer. "" To Sweden, Turkey, Finland and Japan "". At the same time, furiously proving to me that they were right and accusing me of not knowing the history of their own state.

[Alexey G]

I read you guys and I am surprised! How Russian you are! What all the same many people demonstrate that woman's thinking! Well, why are you making excuses then ??? Like women who wanted to go to the left, but did not go and now they are ashamed and justified themselves! "They say she didn't go, so there was nothing! And the fact that she looked to the left is not scary."
Be the peasants! They wanted to fuck the Germans and would have fucked if they had only done so as in 1943 on the Kursk Bulge !!!! Three-line defense, anti-tank guns, camouflaged and entrenched tanks, direct-fire anti-aircraft guns, mines, anti-aircraft guns, fire bags, anti-tank guns and then the most delicious .... attacks to the rear and flanks like under the Eagle!

"In no case give initiative to the German command, forestall the enemy in deployment and attack the German army at a time when it will be in the deployment stage and will not have time to organize the front and cooperation of the armed forces ..."

This is for later !!! Look at the map of 1941! Dream! You are in and not in confession !! Draw the arrows of our attacks on the rear of the Germans! How could we have them! Yum Yum Yum!

[VS]

The author calm down - Illarionov is of course still a miracle - an evil anti-Soviet and Russophobe, but the "plan of May 15" is a real document composed by Zhukov and Vasilievsky, which they began to write at the end of April, and under this plan they even prepared directives to the district on the deployment of troops under HIM! And he is about the ATTACK FIRST and there is no need to moan here that he was not implemented! Zhukov himself later admitted - thank God, Stalin did not fall for THIS RUNNING plan !! Implement it and we would surely be defeated by the Germans!

[mister-red]

I would like to mention just such a trifle. Until September 1, 1939, the USSR could not attack Germany in any way because of the existence of a country like Poland between the USSR and Germany.
However, even after the Polish campaign ended, the USSR could not attack Germany again. He could attack the Wehrmacht, which illegally occupied Poland. Formally, this would be a determination to liberate Poland. What happened in the 1944th year.

[tatarin1972]

The eternal misfortune of the last two centuries of the Russian state is this soft attitude towards the so-called liberals. Although the word liberal among the people is rather a dirty word. My thoughts on this matter are unambiguous, we must accept the article in the Criminal Code for distorting history. Then there would not have been all this "verbal diarrhea", but it would have been: "The GPU to Aesop, and grab him for ..... The moral of this fable is clear, there will be no more fables!"

[Pavel57]

Was it a mistake not to maintain the defenses of 1939, but to move all the troops closer to the new border?

[VS]

and yes and no))) The configuration of the new border was ideal both for defense and for its strike first)))

[VS]

Quote: wolf20032

Well, if these plans contain instructions on the Red Army’s attacks on the Wehrmacht, access to the Baltic Sea on that day, the seizure of oil fields in Romania, the occupation of Krakow, then yes, they will escalate, only not idiots, but those who will consider it plans defense of the state will look, to put it mildly, cretins. What is characteristic, I do not consider these plans to be bad and even more so criminal. I believe that back in the year 89, it was necessary to voice these plans and state - and what's wrong with that? Yes, we wanted to destroy the enemy on its territory, there is nothing shameful. And eliminate the centuries-old threat to the country from the West. But no, at first they managed it, and then they began to deny the obvious. And a lot of dumbheads with them.

you didn’t understand - the plans of the General Staff were not the first to strike))) although such plans were also in the minds of some strategists)))