Cracks as features of production. New disputes around defective BTR-4


BTR-4 of the Ukrainian army in the exercises. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine


In 2013-14. made a lot of noise история with the delivery of Ukrainian armored personnel carriers BTR-4E to Iraq. The customer discovered a numerous marriage and refused to accept the products. The Ukrainian authorities, in turn, were going to deal with this problem and find the perpetrators. Years passed, but the situation as a whole did not change. The problem of cracks in the hulls has again come to the fore and causes new debate.

Not done, but cracking at the seams


The reason for the continuation of the “series” with cracks was a recent article from the Ukrainian information and consulting agency Defense Express. On January 23, it published the material “New BTR-4 for the army: don't be scattered, but even pull it all the way” (“New BTR-4 for the army: not yet made, but already cracking at the seams”). Agency head Sergei Zgurets criticized the production of armored vehicles.

It is alleged that the Kharkov Engineering Design Bureau (KHMB) received three cases for the BTR-4 manufactured by the Lozovsky Forge-Mechanical Plant (LKMZ). The products bear the stamps of military acceptance of the Ministry of Defense, confirming the quality. Despite passing the acceptance, the enclosures are defective.


The defect scheme of one of the new buildings. Figure Defense-ua.com

On the products there are low-quality welds with insufficient strength and requiring additional processing. There are also cracks hidden under the paint. All this requires, at a minimum, to spend time on processing and bringing buildings into an acceptable form. Defense Express accompanied its publication with interesting photographs and video filming.

In connection with the delivery of defective cases S. Zgurets asks three important questions. Why does the state HCMB pay to the private LKMZ defective products? Why is LKMZ a monopolist in the production of cases for armored personnel carriers? Why is “hands” more important than “mind” and KHKBM has turned from a design organization into an assembly organization?

Considering these issues and known problems, Defense Express comes to conclusions about production problems and the corruption component. In particular, charges are being brought against the 85th military acceptance office. Moreover, the whole acceptance system is referred to as the problem.

Meetings and reports


The state concern Ukroboronprom immediately reacted to the publication. The management of the concern called to account the enterprises involved in the production of BTR-4. They were given 24 hours to verify the information of S. Zgurts, study the delivered buildings and compile a report. If the marriage data is confirmed, Ukroboronprom plans to force the contractor to produce high-quality buildings at its expense.


Seam crack on the body. Photo Defense-ua.com

The next day, the state concern published the results of an urgent audit. The presence of cracks in the joints was confirmed. However, the management of LKMZ claims that such damage occurs during the welding process and is part of the technological cycle. They are eliminated at subsequent stages of the production of equipment. Quality control of production is carried out by specialists of LKMZ and KHMBM.

In connection with the identification of the marriage, the Ministry of Defense already formed a working group on January 24, which checked the technique of combat units. On the army BTR-4, poor-quality seams were also identified. A search for the causes of such damage is ongoing.

According to the results of the audit, Ukroboronprom demanded that LKMZ fully and at its own expense correct defects and submit high-quality buildings for production. The Kharkov bureau was ordered to check the qualifications of their welders and to strengthen product quality control.

Unanswered Questions


On January 28, Defense Express again raised the topic of defective cases. Article “New BTR-4 and hulls: not cracks, but“ defects ”. Is that so? ”Began with a reminder of the agency’s activities and its feasible contribution to the improvement of Ukrainian production of armored vehicles. After that, its author, again S. Zgurets, turned to the topic of marriage on the BTR-4.


Another "technology feature". Photo Defense-ua.com

Defense Express reminds: now all Ukrainian production of light armored vehicles for its needs and for export depends on LKMZ, which produces corps. The armor for the BTR-3 and BTR-4 is made according to old technologies developed back in the Soviet era. Such a technological cycle is characterized by a long duration and a significant share of manual labor.

Since 2010, LKMZ has produced more than 250 cases for the BTR-4, mainly from “71” grade armored steel. Some of the delivered products had cracks and other shortcomings. All this was attributed to non-compliance with technological processes in production. The proportion of defective armored personnel carriers reached 30%.

In the past, KKBM allowed for use in the construction of the BTR-4 four types of armor - the Ukrainian "71" and several varieties of foreign production. From Finnish steel MiiLux Protection and the Belgian HB 500 MOD, several cases for equipment were made. The BTR-4 with Belgian armor passed tests that did not reveal problems with strength and other parameters.

Nevertheless, the Ministry of Defense took measures, and in the series there remained cases made of "71" steel, manufactured at LKMZ using old technology. There is a new order, which recently put the first case. It was these LKMZ products that became the occasion for the previous publication Defense Express.


In connection with this situation, pessimistic conclusions are being drawn. LKMZ maintains the status of a monopolist in the production of armored vehicles, despite the release of low-quality products and an actual lack of responsibility. In addition, there is no strategy for the development of HCBM production that could change the situation. To maintain current economic indicators, Kharkiv must hand in at least five BTR-4s per month. However, the supply of defective cases will not allow to maintain even such a pace, which virtually eliminates economic growth.

Looking from the outside


Andrey Tarasenko, a Ukrainian specialist in military equipment, reacted interestingly to new disputes surrounding armor from LKMZ. In his blog, he recalled that cracks are not the only problem with BTR-4. Such defects were present on armored personnel carriers, tanks, and other equipment of almost all types - including Russian models. This question was regularly raised on the pages of specialized periodicals.

As an example, A. Tarasenko cited a drawing demonstrating the correction of a tower defect tank T-44. In the drawing, an overlay 10-15 mm thick is provided on top of the armor defect. According to the Ukrainian expert, such damage does not affect the fighting qualities of equipment. He sees the roots of the current problems and disputes in another: the readiness to bite each other in order to receive money.

Not yet the end


Thus, the temporarily forgotten story with defective armored vehicles for the BTR-4 is continued. The exclusive supplier handed over to the HCBM substandard products that needed to be finalized and corrected. At first, the public, and then Ukroboronprom, drew attention to this situation and now they are trying to find a way out of it.


Restoration of the tower of the T-44 tank upon detection of a defect, mentioned by A. Tarasenko. Figure Andrei-bt.livejournal.com

It seems that a compromise failed to resolve the issue. LKMZ does not consider cracks in welds to be defective and calls them a feature of production. Ukroboronprom does not agree with this and demands to correct the defects at the expense of the manufacturer. Such statements were made only a few days ago, and it is not yet clear what they will lead to.

However, the prerequisites for current phenomena and problems of past years are obvious. Enterprises strive to participate in the implementation of profitable orders on certain rights and receive appropriate payment. Problems of a production and technological nature do not stop them and do not interfere with earnings. In general, this is the case when the incomes of individual organizations and individuals receive a higher priority than issues of quality, cost or defense.

Obviously, this situation hinders the development of the armed forces of Ukraine, which is already facing a host of diverse problems. Measures to correct it have been announced, but their effectiveness will become known only in the future. Will it be possible to solve the long-standing problem with armored vehicles for the BTR-4? Time will tell. However, the events of recent years make us doubt the possibility of the normal production of high-quality equipment. Too many factors interfere with this outcome.
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  1. KCA
    KCA 30 January 2020 06: 24 New
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    The great development of Ukrainian armored vehicles, to compare the armor and workmanship of the T-44 hull, I suppose there’s also some kind of prototype of 1942, with the latest armored personnel carrier in 2020 and say - they saw that everything was fine even on the T-44 there were cracks, nothing , we’ll stick the patch on the snot, it’ll only get stronger, it seems to me that after a single hit, not even from a gun, from the KPVT, BTR-4 it fell apart into individual armored plates like a house of cards
    1. WILL 30 January 2020 06: 29 New
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      Quote: KCA
      we’ll stick the patch on the snot, it’ll only get stronger, it seems to me that after a single hit, not even from a cannon, from KPVT, BTR-4 it fell apart on individual armor plates,

      More pieces of electrical tape and glue! wink An urgent need to renew the release of "Navoztsev" - a breakthrough in the technical thought of Ukraine! belay
      1. Uncle lee 30 January 2020 06: 59 New
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        "I remember all your cracks,
        I sing yours - my songs.
        But why? Lai la la ...
        But why? Lai la la "..
        And how did Zemfira learn about this? wassat
        1. WILL 30 January 2020 07: 01 New
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          Really Scout? belay
          1. Uncle lee 30 January 2020 07: 03 New
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            Seer! lol
            1. Bad_gr 30 January 2020 21: 38 New
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              There was information that the body after welding should be well warmed up in order to remove the stresses that form in the metal during welding. But the operation of heating the case is quite energy-consuming, which means it is expensive and it simply does not.
              1. tank-master 17 June 2020 14: 24 New
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                All right, you say it ... only LKMZ ... which is part of UPEC ... headed by Tolik Hirschveld ... does not do this, since it is expensive. Although the availability of appropriate thermal cameras is at the factory.
                For reference, at one time MTKB armored hulls of all series were brewed at LKMZ ... the Soviet reserve was strong .. but as time showed, people left, and the new owners .. can only cut loot ... with the help of financial frauds they got control over the plant, But they could not restore production completely.
      2. Strashila 30 January 2020 07: 16 New
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        American classic solving technical problems ... chewing gum.
    2. venik 30 January 2020 10: 19 New
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      Quote: KCA
      it seems to me that after a single hit, not even from a cannon, from the KPVT, the BTR-4 fell apart into individual armored plates like a house of cards

      ========
      Well, in order to get a hit (even a single one!), This "scow" must REACH before the battlefield! And with this she seems to have serious problems ...... Quote:
      "... Out of 88 BTR-4 armored personnel carriers delivered by the Ukrainian side to the Iraqi Ministry of Defense (out of 450 originally ordered, the Iraqis refused the rest) within the framework of the problematic “Iraqi contract”, only 56 were able to be started. At the same time, only 34 vehicles were able to move...." (Source: https://zn.ua/UKRAINE/iz-88-postavlennyh-v-irak-ukrainskih-btr-4-zavesti-udalos-lish-56-mashin-248930_.html) request lol
    3. abarth 31 January 2020 20: 21 New
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      it's a little wrong, the T-44 tests are on the Internet .... banal lack of penetration ... frosts can be a genius as a designer, but as a production man ... mediocre, like everything .... we are so brilliant, but where there ... an inborn marriage in the technological chain)))

      iii this brilliant diesel))))

      But Ryabov Kirill used to be Andryushka from http://btvt.narod.ru/, ... but, and he bans everyone on his forum who does not support him
      1. KCA
        KCA 31 January 2020 20: 51 New
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        There is always some disagreement between designers and technologists, designers see a sweetie, and technologists see a place where a sweetie ends its way through the human digestive system
  2. Vladimir_2U 30 January 2020 06: 41 New
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    To understand, to host? Or spit and grind? Perhaps the second!
  3. Graz 30 January 2020 06: 55 New
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    I am only for if the Ukrainian defense industry is completely degrading and the faster the better
    1. The comment was deleted.
  4. Strashila 30 January 2020 07: 15 New
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    This topic is old, I remember the Iraqis made claims to the technology, and partly refused.
    As one character said, here it is necessary technically.
    I won’t be surprised if Ukrainian specialists carefully study correspondence on the site, there is a lot to write about the case.
    There are many questions in this machine, starting with the development of the case, how the structure of the case works, its empty shell.
    The next question is about the materials, what kind of steel, its technological requirements.
    Further, the fur processing of parts, cutting welds for welding, it is not simple, but very important.
    Further, the technology of assembly and welding, how to assemble it all and in what sequence to do welding in which modes with what materials in which medium. Let them watch a movie. how to cook seams on a Bentley and why.
    It is important, after welding, the cooling rate of the seams.
    Further leave the seams, if required.
    So they’ll do a slide rule in their hands.
    1. AK1972 30 January 2020 11: 04 New
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      Edging for welding is used everywhere and this is an important, but not at all complicated task. Chamfers can be done in any way (milling, plasma and gas cutting, followed by stripping, abrasive treatment, etc.) Otherwise, I completely agree with you, Scary. I can add to the above that in order to reduce the cooling rate, as well as for diffusion of free hydrogen from the heat-affected zone, it would not be superfluous to preheat the base metal. To ensure equal strength of joints, the right choice of welding consumables is very important. And certainly the qualifications of the welder. The photo shows cracks resulting from a lack of penetration of the weld root and non-fusion of the edges, which is very characteristic of a weld with two left hands. Big questions to quality control. Internal cracks, incomplete fusion, lack of penetration are easily detected by ultrasound, no need to wait until they show themselves as cracks in the paint. The general conclusion is this: the welding technology in this artel is lower than the plinth, although Ukraine used to be famous for welding science and specialists from the glorious times of Paton.
      1. Strashila 30 January 2020 12: 35 New
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        Based on what is shown in the photographs, there’s no need to talk about any sewing of seams, they simply don’t exist, judging by the notches, it’s not even clear what was cut. The quality of welding, looking at the seam, people say about this, like a bull sent. Explicitly cooked not by what is required by technology, but by what they could get.
        1. AK1972 30 January 2020 13: 46 New
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          Cooked, or rather sculpted, obviously with electrodes of the "KE" brand (Which Are). Most likely they don’t even have semiautomatic devices there. The design in itself for welding is not at all complicated, if divided into sub-assemblies it is easily amenable to automation. Just a disregard for the technological preparation of production, quality control and .. ..ism.
      2. Uncle lee 31 January 2020 01: 23 New
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        Quote: AK1972
        typical for a weld with two left hands

        And you need with two right hands! Mess! no
  5. rocket757 30 January 2020 07: 17 New
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    Cracks as features of production. New disputes around defective BTR-4

    nothing "superfluous" just a business ... although, it should clearly be called differently.
    1. The leader of the Redskins 30 January 2020 07: 58 New
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      Absolutely right. For some reason, cracks appear and they are passed only at the Lozovsky plant. Although Kiev armored personnel carriers 3 do not have such a problem. Well, I have not heard or read.
      Not otherwise the monopolists from Lozovsky "wash their hands"!
      1. rocket757 30 January 2020 08: 12 New
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        "Optimization !, saving, cheapening ... whatever you call it, there are cracks or not! It’s called marriage, and since it has been going on for a long time, it’s kirdyk.
        1. Strashila 30 January 2020 12: 38 New
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          "Optimization !, saving, cheapening ... whatever you call," by which, the rationalization of local crazy hands.
          1. rocket757 30 January 2020 13: 04 New
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            Quote: Strashila
            "Optimization !, saving, cheapening ... whatever you call," by which, the rationalization of local crazy hands.

            Yes, if skillful pens, okay, but when the little hands are completely crazy, then the kirdyk comes, complete with everything else like it.
      2. svp67 30 January 2020 08: 40 New
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        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        Not otherwise the monopolists from Lozovsky "wash their hands"!

        So, the most amazing thing is that they made armored hulls for the BTR-3E, from the same steel grade, have no comments, but with the BTR-4 hulls there were problems, and not only for them, the hulls for the BTR-4 were tried to be assembled at a state-owned enterprise "Zhytomyr Armored Plant" and there it was also suspended due to cracks that appeared on the armored corps. It seems that either the technology of their production is suitable for the production of more “Soviet” buildings, but unsuitable for the “Ukrainian” or problems in the thickness of the armor plates and steel grade
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. mark1 30 January 2020 07: 50 New
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    On BTR-4, cracks in the weld (quality of welding) in the most critical places of the body, and in the case of T-44, the elimination of cracks on the cast tower (quality of casting) is shown, and it’s not where and where under the weld.
  8. Viktor Sergeev 30 January 2020 08: 02 New
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    What the hell is old technology? instead of armor steel, Ukrainians rivet ordinary, poor quality, with a high carbon content and a small amount of additives (they steal and sell to the side according to the old crest), the steel turns out to be hard, but brittle. It would be interesting to see cracks on at least one armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle of Soviet times from those same "old" times.
  9. Ros 56 30 January 2020 08: 34 New
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    The people, their country will soon fall apart, and you are talking about some kind of cracks.
  10. Cowbra 30 January 2020 08: 59 New
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    Whoever does not remember the story is doomed to repeat it. And the Lohly hard copy it. But actually - everything was already like that. The 6th year of the war was on, the decaying fascist state drove cardboard tigers into the troops ... We are waiting for them to start making grenades from concrete again
  11. ANB
    ANB 30 January 2020 12: 32 New
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    To avoid cracks, Ukrainians need:
    Normal steel
    Knowledgeable, experienced welder
    Proper welding equipment and materials
    Brain
    Putin in the presidents

    Even I suffered :)
  12. Potter 30 January 2020 13: 14 New
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    The T-44 tower in this part is cast. Another steel, another technology. Cracks in the welds arise primarily due to the low qualification of the welder-technologists (service of the chief welder of the enterprise). This is an engineering service, and for the high-quality work of the welding production, first of all, engineers and engineers must have high qualifications and experience. And, of course, the qualifications of the welding workers are important. And this is training and work experience.
  13. kupitman 30 January 2020 14: 14 New
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    And we at VO have people with experience in welding or working with armor, what can they prompt? maybe some damage is normal when welding armor sheets?
  14. panzerfaust 30 January 2020 14: 44 New
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    Probably people very loving Donbass cooked seams!
    1. L-39NG 30 January 2020 16: 32 New
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      If they loved, then it would not be cooked
  15. marmalade 30 January 2020 16: 59 New
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    for their armored personnel carriers I’d figure it out — the shell is still traveling which makes its way almost from the machine, only with new weapons ..
  16. BAI
    BAI 30 January 2020 17: 54 New
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    Obviously, this situation hinders the development of the armed forces of Ukraine

    And this is welcome!
  17. Vladycat 31 January 2020 15: 44 New
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    Normal process. Holes in the housing. This is not much worse than our "patching" repair, which keeps our road pits in excellent condition. :). And so any jamb to issue an advanced invention and maybe a ride. They will become a trendsetter and everyone will begin to slip into the hull. That is to say the dermocratic feature of technology that carries the power of "light" to people. :)
  18. esaul1950 31 January 2020 20: 01 New
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    The military industry of banderlogy is on the right track.
  19. rotkiv04 April 24 2020 19: 47 New
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    So this is ventilation, but in general the fellows are kakly, it’s immediately clear that they hate this VSU, and that’s what