How Polish and Russian "thieves" tried to capture the treasures of the Trinity

How Polish and Russian "thieves" tried to capture the treasures of the Trinity

"Defense of the Trinity-Sergius Lavra." Painting by S. Miloradovich


410 years ago, in January 1610, the heroic defense of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery ended. The siege of the monastery by the Polish-Lithuanian troops and Tushins lasted almost sixteen months - from September 1608 to January 1610. The enemy retreated due to the successful offensive of ratification of Prince Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky.

Tushino camp


The troubles in the Russian kingdom were in full swing. In the summer of 1607, a new impostor, False Dmitry the Second, appeared in Starodub. The battles of the royal governor with the supporters of the “true king” begin. The second impostor was less independent than Grigory Otrepiev. He was completely manipulated by the environment. From the very beginning, the real power under the "Tsar" belonged to the chieftain Ivan Zarutsky and the Pole Mekhovetsky, who was then ousted from the post of hetman by Roman Ruzhinsky. Polish gentry and adventurers still made up a significant part of the core of the impostor's army.

In addition, in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the next confrontation of the Rocosans (rebellion against the king, to which the nobility had the right to protect their rights and freedoms) and the king, had just ended. In the decisive battle near Guz, the hetmans Zholkevsky and Khodkevich defeated the rebels. Then the Senate forced the king to reconcile with the vanquished. The troops were disbanded and a large number of mercenaries and gentry, both from the camp of the king and the Rokoshans, remained idle. They happily responded to the call of "Tsar Dmitry" and moved to Russia. The impostor's army has replenished with thousands of well-armed, experienced and professional fighters. This allowed the rat pretender to recover from previous defeats from the royal governor, and even increase. Now the tsar of Vasily Shuisky was opposed not only by rebellious serfs and thieves' Cossacks, but by the full-fledged horse corps of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which by its fighting qualities at that time had no equal in Eastern Europe. Also, the army of the impostor was replenished by thousands of Cossacks and Don Cossacks of Zarutsky.

April 30 - May 1, 1608 the army of the impostor defeated the army of Prince Dmitry Shuisky on the Volkhov River and opened the way to Moscow. After the battle of Volkhov, the army of False Dmitry divided. Most of the troops passed through Kozelsk and Kaluga, faithful to “Tsar Dmitry”, and then through Mozhaisk came to Moscow from the west to avoid meeting with another royal army under the command of Skopin-Shuisky. False Dmitry troops camped in the village of Tushino, northwest of the capital. Therefore, they were nicknamed Tushins. The detachment under the command of Lisovsky moved on a long detour through the outskirts of Ryazan. Lisovsky’s troops occupied Mikhailov and Zaraysk; under Zaraysk, a sudden blow crushed the Ryazan army of Prince Khovansky and Lyapunov. As a result of this victory, Lisovsky with a quick attack captured the strong fortress of Kolomna and significantly replenished his forces due to the remnants of the previously defeated detachments of "thieves" (the troops of Bolotnikov and "Tsarevich Peter"). In June, in a battle near Bear Bear (on the Moscow River between Moscow and Kolomna), Prince Kurakin defeated Lisovsky, captured his "outfit" -artillery and a large convoy. The foxes fled to the Tushino camp.

From the summer of 1608 to the spring of 1610, Tushins were besieging Moscow. True, there were no forces for a full siege. In Moscow there was a whole army. Shuisky had every opportunity to replenish the garrison and supply the capital. At the same time, two systems of governing the country developed - in Moscow and Tushino. There were two kings, two governments with prizes, the impostor also had his own patriarch Filaret (Fedor Romanov), some cities were subordinate to Dmitry, others to Shuisky. The Tushinsky “Tsarek” generously distributed land to his supporters (they were taken from the supporters of Tsar Vasily), appointed governor to the cities. Tushins and Poles scattered throughout the country, trying to subdue as many lands and cities as possible, and seize their resources. With the arrival of the large detachment of the hetman Jan Sapieha to the impostor, detachments of "thieves" went to all parts of the country, trying to take possession of the rich regions. Some cities themselves “kissed the cross” of False Dmitry, others forced by force. The Poles of Sapega captured Pereslavl-Zalessky, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Vologda, Totma, then Kostroma and Galich. Foxers subjugated the interfluve of Klyazma and Volga from Vladimir and Suzdal to Balakhna and Kineshma. Pskov, part of the Novgorod land, Uglich and Kashin, was deposited from the king of Shuisk. The Volga was worried.


S.V. Ivanov. "In the Time of Troubles"

The beginning of the siege


Everything that happened was like the end of the world. Tushins - Poles and Russian "thieves", smashed and crushed any resistance. Robberies, wild atrocities and murders on a massive scale swept almost the entire European part of the state. Moreover, often the Russian "thieves" atrocities worse than the Polish-Lithuanian finds. The civil war took many different forms. "Moscow" robbed the monastery, patriarchs and palace lands to supply the capital. In response, the peasants created their self-defense units, asked for help from the Tushins, and themselves intercepted the supply lines of Moscow from Kolomna and Vladimir. Other peasants who were affected by the Tushins created partisan detachments and cut separate units of the impostor. The nobles split, some went over to the side of False Dmitry II (the so-called "Tushino flights"), others continued to stand for Tsar Shuisky, although his positions among the nobility were greatly shaken. The townspeople rose against the "strong people", the cities fought for different kings.

At the same time, Tushins encroached on the spiritual heart of Russia - the Trinity-Sergius Monastery. The monastery, founded by Sergius of Radonezh, at the beginning of the XVII century was the largest and richest monastery in the Russian kingdom. The fame of the monastery and especially its miracles, which came from the relics of saints and icons, brought thousands of pilgrims here annually, including merchants, boyars and the royal family. The monastery received rich monetary and land contributions, usually for a "mention of the soul." In the middle of the XVI century the monastery became a strong fortress - it was surrounded by a stone wall with 12 towers, where almost a hundred guns were placed.

With the beginning of the siege of Moscow by Tushins, the Trinity Monastery became an important strategic point. The monastery provided the connection of the capital with the northeastern regions, rich in Volga and Pomeranian cities. Therefore, the Shuisky government sent a detachment of archers and Cossacks to the monastery under the command of Grigory Dolgorukov-Grove and Moscow nobleman Alexei Golokhvastov. Also, the monastery was defended by posad residents, peasants and representatives of the clergy. The number of combat-ready part of the garrison was about 2,5 - 3 thousand people. The “nun queen” Martha (Princess Staritskaya) and the “nun princess” Olga (Godunova) were besieged.

The False Dmitry Government also appreciated the importance of the Trinity Monastery. Her capture allowed to strengthen the blockade of Moscow, cut it off from the east of the country. An important consideration was the looting of the monastery treasury, rich monastery volosts. For the Russian and Polish-Lithuanian "thieves" the robbery of the richest monastic treasury was the main incentive for the siege, especially after the recognition of "Tsar Dmitry Ivanovich" as Muscovites and many northern cities. Also, the transition of the local brotherhood to the arm of the "Tushino king" was to strengthen his authority in the country. Therefore, the detachment of Jan Sapieha went to the monastery, reinforced by Tushino "thieves" and Cossacks under the command of Lisovsky. The number of Tushino rati is estimated at about 12-15 thousand people with 63 guns (according to other sources - 17 guns). In the course of hostilities, the army of Sapieha and Lisowski could increase with the arrival of new units and decrease to several thousand when troops were serving to conduct hostilities in other places.

On September 23 (October 3), 1608, Tushino troops settled on the heights in front of the monastery. Tushintsy counted on an easy victory, that the monastery would quickly pass under the arm of “Tsar Dmitry”. However, the garrison "strengthened from treason" by kissing the cross at the relics of Sergius and resolutely rejected the offer of surrender. The Tushins burned the settlements surrounding the monastery and were forced to start a siege and build their fortified camp.

The shelling of the walls of rifles and light field guns, as well as a random attack, did not cause any positive effect. In early October, Sapieha had to start siege work. The Poles decided to make a dig under the Pyatnitskaya Tower, located in the central part of the southwestern wall. Then blow up the mine and make a breach. But the garrison learned about this from the defector and the "languages" captured during the sorties. The counterattacks of the fortress garrison made it possible to find out the place and direction of the enemy mine gallery. Enraged by the activity of the defenders of the monastery, Tushins opened fire on the temples from the heavy gun "Teschera", which was delivered from near Moscow. Shells damaged the Trinity Cathedral, the icons of the Archangel Michael and St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. In response, the clan’s artillery crushed the enemy’s battery.


November battle


On the night of November 1 (11), 1608, the Tushins made the first large assault, attacking the fortress from three sides. The enemy set fire to advanced wooden fortifications and thereby illuminated himself. The assault was reflected by the strong artillery fire of numerous artillery. Then the garrison made a sortie and destroyed individual groups of the enemy, who took refuge in a ditch. Tushins suffered significant losses. On November 9, the monastery’s defenders were divided into three detachments and made a general outing at night: “The yasak (battle cry - Author.) Sergiev’s name and together attacking Lithuanian people brazenly and courageously”. The attack was so sudden and decisive that the weaker regiments of the “city people” overturned the Tushins and captured 8 to 11 guns, prisoners, enemy banners and supplies. They were carried away to the fortress, and what they could not was burned. The Poles noted that the monks also participated in the sortie, some of them were real heroes.

On November 10, the Russian garrison repeated a sortie, trying to break through to the underground gallery. This time the Poles were ready and repelled the attack. The defenders suffered losses and retreated to the fortress. But something had to be done with a trench, he was rapidly approaching the Pyatnitskaya Tower. Taking into account the experience of previous battles, the besieged were especially well prepared for a new sortie at dawn on November 11. All forces were divided into several units, each got its own task. So the detachment of the hundredth head of Ivan Vnukov-Timofeev covered other units, and a group of demolitionists laid a charge in the undermining. The first strike was successful, a charge was laid in the undermining. Then the soldiers of Lisovsky counterattacked and nearly disrupted the operation. However, the soldiers of the detachment, Ivan Vnukov, who died in this battle, managed to detonate the charge and brought down the undermining. As a result, the fortress was saved.


Polish commander, Hetman Jan Pyotr Sapieha (1569 - 1611)

Siege continued


After this major failure, Sapega changed tactics, abandoned attempts to take the fortress and concentrated his efforts on the close blockade of the Trinity. Tushintsy erected fortifications, blocked roads, put outposts and ambushes. The garrison command at first adhered to the previous tactics of active defense. In December 1608 - January 1609, the besieged carried out several sorties to capture food and fodder, destroyed and set fire to several outposts and fortifications. However, the garrison suffered serious losses, which he could not recover. In addition, during one of the sorties, Tushinsky blocked a squad of archers, which went beyond the walls, and then the Polish cavalry went on the attack and some of the riders were able to break into the monastery. The situation was saved by the numerous artillery of the Trinity, which with its fire supported the breakthrough of the archers back to the fortress. But they suffered significant losses. The Polish horsemen who burst into Trinity could not turn around in the closed narrow streets; they were killed by peasants with oak and stones.

Thus, the tactics of the Polish command bore fruit. Soon the garrison had to abandon the sorties. Cold, hunger, lack of drinking water and scurvy mowed the defenders. In February, 15 people died every day. Stocks of gunpowder were running out. The blockade claimed the lives of most of the defenders and other inhabitants of the Trinity. Mortally wounded and sick were tonsured as monks. Only a few survived the winter: according to Abraham Palitsyn, 2125 people were buried during the defense, “except for the female sex and the undergrowth and the weak and old.” By May 15, only about 200 children of the boyars, archers, Cossacks and monks remained in service.

But the remaining defenders were ready to stand to the end. They refused to accept all the new proposals of the Tushino residents for surrender. Moreover, people still walked behind the wall for firewood, water, roots, but already for several people. In turn, the tsarist governors tried to support such a heroic garrison, whose standing fettered the best enemy forces and gave hope to all opponents of the "Tushino king" and the Poles. In January, reinforcements could not break into Trinity, but in February a convoy with gunpowder from Moscow broke into the monastery. The convoy fell into one of the Tushino ambushes, and the Cossacks guarding it entered into an unequal battle, but governor Dolgoruky-Roshcha made a sortie and cleared the way.

Not everything was alright in the Trinity. There were quarrels between archers and monks. The chief governor Dolgoruky decided to take possession of the treasury and reserves of the monastery, accusing Joseph Trechkin of the monastery treasurer. But the second governor Aleksey Golokhvastov, with the support of the “nun queen” and archimandrite Joasaph, with the help of the monastic brotherhood, managed to justify the treasurer. There were also defectors who could not stand the hardships of the siege and fled to the Tushino camp. They informed the Poles about the extinction of the garrison from starvation and disease.

Sapega began preparations for a new assault. On the night of June 29, the besieged repulsed the enemy attack. Sapega began to prepare a new decisive assault, mobilized nearby Tushino detachments and brought his army to 12 thousand people. Against about 200 Trinity fighters! The defenders of the monastery were preparing to accept the final battle and death. On the night of July 28, the Tushins went on the attack. But the defenders were saved by a miracle. In the early morning darkness, Polish and Russian assault columns mixed up the time of the performance and moved differently. Faced among themselves, took in the dark allies for enemies and entered into battle. The turmoil began, many died, were injured and the assault broke. Conflicts began between Tushins and Poles, they accused each other of failures. After that, many Tushino leaders and Cossack chieftains, mistaking this case as a bad sign, left Sapieha camp.

Siege ending


After the failure of these assaults, a full-fledged siege was gone. Sapega led his detachment against the advancing troops of Skopin-Shuisky, who, with the support of the Swedes, led an offensive from Novgorod to liberate Moscow from the Tushins. Many atamans of Tushino citizens also took their people away, desertion intensified in the remaining units.

On October 18 (28), 1609, at the Aleksandrovskaya Sloboda (battle on the Karin field) Skopin-Shuisky defeated Sapege. Thus, he opened his way to the Trinity. After that, a detachment of governor Davyd Zherebtsov (several hundred soldiers) from the Skopin-Shuisky troops broke into the monastery. The garrison, having received reinforcements, resumed active hostilities. The supply of the Trinity was established. In January 1610, another detachment went to Trinity - governor Grigory Valuev (about 500 people).

As the troops of Skopin-Shuisky approached on January 22, 1610, the Poles lifted the siege and went towards Dmitrov. There in February they were again defeated. The remnants of the army of Sapieha left Dmitrov, and the Tushino camp fell apart. Polish-Lithuanian troops moved to the Smolensk region to join the army of King Sigismund III.

Thus, the enemy could not crush the walls of the monastery and the spirit of its defenders, plunder the treasures of the Trinity. The heroic defense of the Trinity-Sergius Monastery (together with Smolensk) showed an example of all Russia and the Russian people, strengthening the resistance and organization of the people in overcoming the Time of Troubles.


"Defenders of the Holy Trinity Sergius Lavra." V. Vereshchagin
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
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  1. Talgarets 24 January 2020 06: 16 New
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    A very good article.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 24 January 2020 06: 29 New
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      I agree. When Dear Alexander refuses tendentious cliches in the form of "masters of the west", "super-duper-Rusov-Slavoariyev" pretty good work is obtained. For example, today's work!
      1. Talgarets 24 January 2020 07: 25 New
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        I just meant it
      2. Alexander Suvorov 24 January 2020 09: 25 New
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        Kote Pan Kokhanka (Vladislav)
        I agree. When Dear Alexander refuses tendentious cliches in the form of "masters of the west", "super-duper-Rusov-Slavoariyev" pretty good work is obtained. For example, today's work!
        I will also support it. When Samsonov does not spread over the “super-duper Aryscifian civilization of the Rus”, a completely suitable material is obtained.
        But the defenders were saved by a miracle. In the early morning darkness, Polish and Russian assault columns mixed up the time of the performance and moved differently. Faced among themselves, took in the dark allies for enemies and entered into battle.
        In my past work, I often visited Sergiev Posad, I was in the Trinity-Sergius Lavra. There you can go on an excursion, and so, the guide talked about another miracle. When the defenders ran out of water and everyone was dying of thirst, the spring sprang in an absolutely wonderful way. Now he is ennobled and there you can still get water, which is considered miraculous.
        I don’t know the bike or not, but it’s for sure that there is a spring there. Something like that.
        1. BAI
          BAI 24 January 2020 11: 38 New
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          if we are talking about a source on the square in front of the bell tower and the Assumption Cathedral, then this is a water supply. Although officially:
          In the seventeenth century, the monks repaired the southwestern corner of the Assumption Cathedral. Golubinsky writes: “When a moat was dug for the foundation of the bull, suddenly spring water appeared in the moat. From the water of the spring that came, one monk of the monastery received healing, and one servant of the monastery, expressing disbelief in the healing power of the water, was conceived by death. ” It is believed that the monk mentioned received healing from blindness. Miracles from the spring’s water also occurred later, so very soon a stone chapel was built over it, which received the name Nadkladnaya.

          The photo shows that there is no water.
          The real source in the chapel is Pyatnitsky well, but it is nearby, but outside the Lavra.

        2. Pane Kohanku 24 January 2020 15: 13 New
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          I will also support it. When Samsonov does not spread over the “super-duper Aryscifian civilization of the Rus”, a completely suitable material is obtained.

          But when it spreads, it gets a bunch of pluses from the patriotic public, swearing at the forum (and many swear to death) and 1000+ comments. If the material is provocative - get views and bugurt! fellow
          Samsonov had a wonderful cycle about Napoleonics.
          1. Alexander Suvorov 24 January 2020 15: 18 New
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            Pane Kohanku (Pane Kohanku)
            But when it spreads, it gets a bunch of pluses from the patriotic public, swearing at the forum (and many swear to death) and 1000+ comments.
            It is what it is. I confess that I myself am sinful in terms of quarreling, especially with the bakers. I really do not like their brother for an outright lie.
            Samsonov had a wonderful cycle about Napoleonics.
            Yes, he and about the Second World War did not turn out badly. Again, if it does not fall into Great Russian chauvinism.
            1. Pane Kohanku 24 January 2020 15: 26 New
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              Yes, he and about the Second World War did not turn out badly. Again, if it does not fall into Great Russian chauvinism.

              honestly, I don’t want to swear with anyone - enough already, swore. I just think that history cannot be replaced by a provocative personal opinion. There are other sites for this - patriotic, or alternative sites there. Moreover, I think that smart people should always be able to find a language between each other, and not swear to bloody diarrhea because of Alaska, as if everyone needs it, no less! stop
              This, you know, on the History channel, between programs, a young man, Roman Antonovsky, reads about "Great Russian achievements in half with heroism." But he reads so stubbornly that you understand - in figs this fermented patriotism. no When this rosy gingerbread from the TV screen announced that Ungern was a hero, I almost crashed from the sofa. Sorry .. he may have been a hero during WWI. But rather - a schizophrenic in life. Well, something like this.... request and patriotic symbols do not need to be sculpted from such personalities! drinks
              1. Alexander Suvorov 24 January 2020 16: 29 New
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                When this rosy gingerbread from the TV screen announced that Ungern was a hero, I almost crashed from the sofa. Sorry .. he may have been a hero during WWI. But rather - a schizophrenic in life. Well, something like that .... request and patriotic symbols are definitely not necessary to sculpt from such personalities!
                So the fact of the matter is that I, too, are enraged by such things as they are trying to blind from the Ungerns, Kolchakov, Denikins, Krasnovs, Vlasov heroes. Although from "Trotsky" and others like him, too, the "heroes" are still those!
          2. vladcub 24 January 2020 18: 40 New
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            A few years ago, I accidentally wandered into the site and there was an article by Samsonov on swastika and some article by Denis Brigov. I liked it and came to the site.
            Our Samsonov is completely different: from the wild Fomenkovschina to interesting stories about history. And I like the last Samsonov more, and the first: "don’t be free for nothing."
            1. Pane Kohanku 26 January 2020 00: 07 New
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              and some article by Denis Brigov

              Denis Brig writes simply gorgeous. It is a pity that it has not been published for a long time. As the forum participant Alexei Anatolyevich "Sailboat" correctly said: For a long time we did not listen to the rustling of banners ...
              And I like the last Samsonov more, and the first: "don’t be free for nothing."

              Svyatoslav, I support you with both hands, and with all four paws of my cat Mikado! I repeat once again - no need to replace history own opinion. This disgusting. I have the honor, Nikolai! soldier
  2. Bar2 24 January 2020 06: 33 New
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    Samsonov does not answer questions, the rest, as usual, are content with the version of the story. But questions remain.
    -How did the Russian army of Dmitry interact with the Polish army, in what language?
    -The monastery had a lot of weapons and cannons. Where did it come from?
    - The same thing about gunpowder, where did gunpowder come from? What plants made gunpowder?
    -In general, OI historians tell us that in Russia of the 16-17th centuries they did not make their weapons and all weapons were foreign, as well as iron, copper were also imported, like silver and gold.
    -What kind of weapon were the Russian defenders of the monastery armed with, the army of Dmitry, the army of Skopin-Shuisky?
    Is it possible to even learn at least something about the economy of Russia, and not just about these endless wars?
    1. Talgarets 24 January 2020 07: 45 New
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      1 the army of Poland and Dmitry interacted similarly, for example, the armies of Romania and Germany during the Second World War
      2. Monasteries were often used as defense nodes and not only in Russia, so the presence of weapons there is logical.
      3. Gunpowder was made, for example, in Moscow. In particular, in 1422. "Powder fire" occurred.
      4. OI, on the contrary, says that on 16-17, you produced weapons with might and main in Russia. The famous master Andrei Chokhov cast the Tsar Cannon in the 16th century.
      5. The weapons used in 16-17 are widely represented in museums.
      1. Bar2 24 January 2020 08: 01 New
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        Quote: Talgarets
        1 the army of Poland and Dmitry interacted similarly, for example, the armies of Romania and Germany during the Second World War


        and how did the armies of Germany and Romania interact? I know that the leadership of the Allied armies in 2mv was in German. So, Dmitry spoke with the Poles in Russian, so what?

        Quote: Talgarets
        . Monasteries were often used as defense nodes and not only in Russia, so the presence of weapons there is logical.


        It’s logical for you. That the monastery, the whole fortress is visible at a glance, but the monastery is primarily a spiritual center, and not a military one, therefore a very strange combination of these polar types of human activity. It can be said even more, we know little of what represented the monasteries of that time. For example, now clergymen should not take up arms - this is a ban for them, so when did they introduce this ban?





        Quote: Talgarets
        OI, on the contrary, says that on 16-17, you produced weapons with might and main in Russia. The famous master Andrei Chokhov cast the Tsar Cannon in the 16th century

        except Andrei Chokhov, what is known?

        Quote: Talgarets
        The weapons used in 16-17 are widely represented in museums.

        and all these weapons are foreign. For example, the Armory, everything is Turkish, but Arabic.
        1. Moskovit 24 January 2020 09: 01 New
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          It seems that you went from kindergarten to school yesterday. Some children's questions and reasoning. There is a gigantic array of books about the Time of Troubles. Memoirs of participants from Palitsyn to Bussov. Read, and many questions will disappear.
          1. Alexander Suvorov 24 January 2020 09: 31 New
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            Moskovit (Alexey)
            It seems that you went from kindergarten to school yesterday. Some children's questions and reasoning. There is a gigantic array of books about the Time of Troubles. Memoirs of participants from Palitsyn to Bussov. Read, and many questions will disappear.
            You should not read him a favor, he is an ardent supporter of alternative history, and therefore he does not believe in any historical works. Trying to prove something to him is useless, has already been tested more than once and not by me alone.
            Alternative specialists, this is something akin to the ancient ukrams, believe only what they want to believe, convince them fool useless.
            1. Senior seaman 24 January 2020 12: 51 New
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              Quote: Alexander Suvorov
              Alternative specialists, this is something akin to ancient ukra

              But-but-but, I would ask!
              Alternate History (AI) is a genre of fiction dedicated to depicting reality, which could have been if history had taken a different path at one of its turning points (bifurcation points or fork points). This literary genre should not be confused with alternative historical theories, which suggest that the picture of the past depicted by historical science be considered partially or completely erroneous.
            2. vladcub 24 January 2020 18: 54 New
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              The same seafarers?
          2. Bar2 24 January 2020 10: 59 New
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            Quote: Moskovit
            It seems that you went from kindergarten to school yesterday.

            specifically can you answer something? What language did the army of Dmitry and the Poles communicate?
            1. Alexander Suvorov 24 January 2020 11: 36 New
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              Bar2 (Paul)
              What language did the army of Dmitry and the Poles communicate?
              For the gifted, I inform you that modern Ukrainians understand Poles quite well, and Poles can understand what Ukrainians are saying to them. The linguistic difference between Polish and Russian in the 16-17th centuries was not as significant as it is today. And even today, even through a stump, a Russian deck can communicate with a Pole, especially if you take half a liter for two, and if two half a liter, the language barrier is completely removed ... laughing
              So your "arguments" do not dance!
            2. AK1972 24 January 2020 12: 55 New
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              Quote: Bar2
              What language did the army of Dmitry and the Poles communicate?

              In Slavic-Scythian-Aryan, some in Sanskrit and ancient Sumerian, but the latter were very few.
              1. Pane Kohanku 24 January 2020 15: 15 New
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                ancient Sumerian, but the latter were very few.

                How do you know, Alexey? Are there excavated clay tablets describing the campaign? wink drinks
                1. AK1972 24 January 2020 16: 01 New
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                  Unfortunately no labels were found. At that time, Sumerian was already a dying spoken language, which is why there were only a few carriers of it. I can only add that the commanders and soldiers communicated also in Etruscan (after all, as you know, the Russians left Etruria), but the Poles almost did not understand Etruscan by that time, because switched to the Latin alphabet, but in vain, I had to hire Russian interpreters for a lot of money.
              2. Talgarets 24 January 2020 17: 19 New
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                Joke appreciated! laughing laughing laughing
            3. Hantengri 24 January 2020 13: 23 New
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              Quote: Bar2
              specifically can you answer something? What language did the army of Dmitry and the Poles communicate?

              In Korean, of course! On what else? laughing Nevertheless, in your view, they were so stupid that they couldn’t think of the interpreters anyway, and so, poor fellows, had to go Korean in Korean!
        2. Talgarets 24 January 2020 11: 01 New
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          and how did the armies of Germany and Romania interact? I know that the leadership of the Allied armies in 2mv was in German. So, Dmitry spoke with the Poles in Russian, so what?

          The main thing is that the command staff could agree, it is much more interesting how Dmitry spoke with Marina Mnishek

          It’s logical for you. That the monastery, the whole fortress is visible at a glance, but the monastery is primarily a spiritual center, not a military

          The monastery is primarily a subject of feudal law, which is the concentration of material values ​​and resources that must be protected.
          Monks with priests periodically took up arms - for example, Relight was a monk. Western European bishops did not hesitate to wave their clubs.

          except Andrei Chokhov, what is known?

          Pronya Fedorov, Kondraty Mikhailov, Grigory Naumov, Alexey Nikiforov. The specialized literature of names is more mentioned.

          and all these weapons are foreign. For example, the Armory, everything is Turkish, but Arabic

          I am surprised. It will be a little expensive to import the tips of spears and arrows ...
          On the other hand, in VIMAIVVS I saw a 17v hunting rifle with a drum a la Colt and a cannon-lock of the same century. Everything is done by Russian masters.
          In general, there is some kind of paradoxical situation when the alternative specialist wants to belittle the value of Russian masters ...
          1. Bar2 24 January 2020 11: 17 New
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            Quote: Talgarets
            The main thing is that the command staff could agree, it is much more interesting how Dmitry spoke with Marina Mnishek


            Mnishek lived in Russia and therefore spoke Russian, what's interesting? But the coordination of the actions of the Allied armies is a matter of victory in the war, and therefore this issue is a priority. So there is no answer to my question?

            Quote: Talgarets
            Monks with priests periodically took up arms - for example, Relight was a monk. Western European bishops did not hesitate to wave their clubs.

            I told you that now it is FORBIDDEN for priests to take up arms, When did such a turn take place?

            Quote: Talgarets
            Pronya Fedorov, Kondraty Mikhailov, Grigory Naumov, Alexey Nikiforov. The specialized literature of names is more mentioned.

            ... The first-time Isaev was forgotten.

            I do not belittle the merits of Russian masters - this is what OI does for me.
            Shpakovsky said to look at a couple of books on these issues, and so Rybakov, the author of these little books, writes that nothing qualitative was invented and done in Russia and there were no mines, but Russia / Russia ALWAYS fought ALWAYS, every century for several major wars. And that everything is a foreign weapon? But so says the official history of the OI and this can be seen in the Armory.
            1. Talgarets 24 January 2020 17: 51 New
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              But the coordination of the actions of the Allied armies is a matter of victory in the war, and therefore this issue is a priority. So there is no answer to my question?

              And what do interpreters-translators not like for you? In addition, I suppose the elite often knows several languages, so coordination of interaction was probably carried out quite effectively. I think the question is settled.
              Now the clergy are FORBIDDEN to take up arms, When did such a turn take place?

              Want to check if I can use the Internet or not?
              for example, at http://www.bolshoyvopros.ru/questions/1404519-pozvolitelno-li-svjaschennikam-nosit-oruzhie.html it says so.
              The canons of the Orthodox Church strictly forbid the priest to carry weapons and take them in their hands. An exception is the so-called military clergy who serve in military units (chaplains). Such priests are allowed to train in shooting, but carrying weapons (even state-owned from a military unit) is also strictly forbidden.
              In the Church of Christ, of course, there were cases when priests took up arms. Such incidents occurred during the First World War and during the Second World War. It is necessary to say here that the clergyman who took weapons during the indicated periods was automatically prohibited (i.e., he did not have the right to serve church services, fulfill the requirements and invoke the sacraments, and became, as it were, a sinful layman). After the war, such clergymen stayed for a year under penance and resorted to repentance. And only after the completion of the penance they were returned the priesthood right.

              There is still here:
              https://pravoslavie.ru/7104.html
              Conclusion - in certain situations (saving life) is allowed, subject to subsequent repentance.
              I repeat - the monastery is the subject of feudal law, an administrative and economic object, except for the monks themselves, there are always lay people working at the monastery and on the monastic lands.
              And that everything is a foreign weapon? But so says the official history of the OI and this can be seen in the Armory.

              Read, for example, A. N. Kirpichnikov "Old Russian weapons." It is an official story.
              It is natural to know that both Russian and Polish acquired expensive oriental weapons, people more simply used cheaper samples of local production. No one pays attention to them in museums. You can draw an analogy with car owners.
              Perhaps the questions you are asking seem important and significant to you, I apologize, but they are naive, especially the question about the language of communication. I hope nothing hurt you.
              1. Bar2 24 January 2020 19: 20 New
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                Quote: Talgarets
                And what do interpreters-translators not like for you? In addition, I suppose the elite often knows several languages, so coordination of interaction was probably carried out quite effectively. I think the question is settled.


                I’ll tell you something about languages ​​that you already forgot. Humanity set itself a big ambitious task to build the Tower of Babel, but for some reason God didn’t like it (he is a harmful Jewish god) and he mixed languages. People ceased to understand each other, the task has not been completed.
                Many languages ​​do not contribute, but reduce the level of understanding of people. In order to achieve the goal, it is necessary to combine efforts, and various languages ​​only divide people and prevent them from communicating and understanding each other.

                The USSR won the war because everyone spoke the same language, Russian. I will give examples from history when the Allies could not achieve their military goals and this came from a weak level of interaction. These are examples from the Great Patriotic War, when the Romanian, Hungarian and Italian troops they didn’t fulfill their tasks. For example, during the operation Uranus-the Battle of Stalingrad, the Romanians simply fled and exposed the flanks of the 6th German army and no German orders could stop these allies.
                There is such an example when the Polish Army 1 army in 1945 showed itself well in Poland, but the 2 Polish army during the Berlin operation was not able to fulfill its tasks and was surrounded by Germans. The first Polish army was formed on the territory of the USSR and the level of interaction between the Pole commanders was at a level that the Poles commanders learned the Russian language easier, the Second Polish Army was not so prepared and did not fulfill its mission.
                Communicating in war through translators, when you need to constantly communicate with an ally / neighbor in an operation, will not work especially in someone else’s territory, when everywhere there are incomprehensible names and unfamiliar terrain.
                Quote: Talgarets
                I say - the monastery is the subject of feudal law, an administrative and economic object,


                listen to those words in those days no one knew the right, feudal, administrative, what do you mean by that? What untrained laity not familiar with military affairs could withstand the regular army? The picture is not likely.
          2. vladcub 24 January 2020 19: 03 New
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            "it is much more interesting how Dmitry communicated with Mnishek." Kamrad Talgarets, there would be a desire, and there even with Mnishek, even with Maria Magdolena you can find a common language. The main thing is to be beautiful
        3. vladcub 24 January 2020 18: 52 New
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          Bar, in "means Dmitry spoke with the Poles in Russian," and you do not admit that False Dmitry could know the Polish language? In fact, he was a servant of the Poles, the servant speaks the language of the gentlemen always like that
          1. Bar2 24 January 2020 19: 46 New
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            Quote: vladcub
            Bar, in "means Dmitry spoke with the Poles in Russian," and you do not admit that False Dmitry could know the Polish language? In fact, he was a servant of the Poles, the servant speaks the language of the gentlemen always like that


            The fact that Dmitry could know Polish is not enough for successful operations, it would be necessary for the commanders of the two armies to know each other's languages ​​or speak the same language.
      2. Moskovit 24 January 2020 09: 06 New
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        Just passing by train past the former camp of the Tushino thief). Now there are 15 bus fleets. Reminds nothing of those terrible times. At the place where the fate of Russia was decided, concrete hangars and garages. And kayakers train almost year-round on the Skhodna River ..
        1. alebor 24 January 2020 11: 07 New
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          Now there are 15 bus fleets.
          Strange, but somewhere on the Internet I met a mention that the Tushino thief’s headquarters was on a hill near the Trikotazhnaya railway station (at the fork of Knitted passage and Vasily Petushkov street).
    2. kalibr 24 January 2020 08: 03 New
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      For starters, look at these two available editions: “The Craft of Ancient Russia” (1948), “Russian Maps of Muscovy of the 1974th - Early XNUMXth Centuries” (XNUMX).
      1. Bar2 24 January 2020 10: 16 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        For starters, look at these two available editions: “The Craft of Ancient Russia” (1948), “Russian Maps of Muscovy of the 1974th - Early XNUMXth Centuries” (XNUMX).


        I’ve already looked at the cards of Rybakov’s book, I can say that I have cards with better clarity.
        A ridiculous moment in the book, Rybakov examines the Cards of Delil and Sanson on which in large letters Moscow Tartaria, on the maps of the Smolensky Palatinate, for example, the kingdom of Astrakhan, the kingdom of Kazan, the Cossacks of Cherkasy, but later on in the text he does not mention this, but only the princedom, and the princedom. Can I view the map and not read half the names? Something incredible is going on, for the mention of historians of Tartaria, who were deprived of their salaries, or what? One is written on the map, but Rybakov does not see this and stubbornly oppresses his own.
        Just like you.

        according to crafts. Rybakov says that there were no mines on the territory of Russia, there was only swamp ore. But the blades were still imported from Europe, and ours made only hilt, so for the whole army - all from Europe.
        Our helmets were not ours, but Persian and ours made helmets similar to Persian ones. But now Persians are buying on c300.

        This is not a story, but a leaky bucket. I do not like such a “science”.
        1. Operator 24 January 2020 10: 50 New
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          Bar2 - get ready to become Bar3 laughing
          1. Bar2 24 January 2020 11: 07 New
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            Quote: Operator
            Bar2 - get ready to become Bar3

            it’s an honor for me that on this Jewish site the enemies rate me like that, it means that my thoughts are worth something. As for your remark, I definitely neglected this.
            1. Catfish 24 January 2020 15: 22 New
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              ... it is an honor to me that on this Jewish site

              Having nothing against the Jews themselves, let me say that with the same success this site can be called Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Tatar ... and further on the list.
              I do not advise you anything, but why so frankly fall "below the plinth"? stop
              1. Bar2 24 January 2020 15: 43 New
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                Quote: Sea Cat
                I do not advise you anything, but why so frankly fall "below the plinth"?


                you come here not to advise, but I go here to talk about history
                1. Catfish 24 January 2020 15: 53 New
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                  That's right, but I don’t advise, because it most likely makes no sense to advise you. request
        2. Hantengri 24 January 2020 13: 05 New
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          Don't like Rabakov? Read A.N. Lobin "Artillery of Ivan the Terrible", is a more modern monograph. https://iknigi.net/avtor-aleksey-lobin/181519-artilleriya-ivana-groznogo-aleksey-lobin.html
    3. BAI
      BAI 24 January 2020 11: 43 New
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      -What kind of weapon were the Russian defenders of the monastery armed with?

      To answer this question - welcome to the Lavra Museum of History. But here was a photo of Lavra:


    4. Viktor Sergeev 24 January 2020 12: 31 New
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      Learn to accept data just like that. Nobody will tell you anything, the information is simply not available. There is only general data. Well, there’s probably no gun merchant. Yes, and historians were Western, and all drove to the principle: the Russian savages did not do anything themselves, for which Lomonosov also broke his noses.
      1. Bar2 24 January 2020 12: 40 New
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        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        Learn to accept data just like that.

        it just doesn’t happen. I have already been told that there are books on the troubled times of breakthrough. So the answers to such questions should be there. Well, if they are not in this literature, then the story is false and many people say this, such a conclusion.
        Even the name Poloniya itself is already a lie, Poloniya is either Polanyi from the glades, or the country of the Polonyans i.e. Plennikov. In the PVL glade and Poles were written, and when did Polonia suddenly become Poland? And Lithuania, Belarus?
    5. Fishery 24 January 2020 14: 09 New
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      are you kidding)))))))) the Polish and Russian languages ​​of that time, as well as Ukrainian, are very similar, plant you with a Pole or a Ukrainian, you will communicate in an hour, more or less calmly)
      1. Bar2 24 January 2020 14: 32 New
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        Quote: Tonya
        are you kidding)))))))) the Polish and Russian languages ​​of that time as well as Ukrainian are very similar, plant you with a Pole or a Ukrainian, you will communicate in an hour, more or less calmly

        can you give examples of the polish language of that time? But this Polish language is not possible to understand especially by ear.
        1. Fishery 24 January 2020 15: 29 New
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          you apparently talked a little with the carriers) a lot of understandable common words, for example COVAL, you need to explain who it is? or bagel, vodka, whine, croutons)) and much more
    6. andrew42 24 January 2020 21: 16 New
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      The Polish language and now 50% does not need a translation into Russian - the Polish Latin is at first glance difficult, but with vocalization in many cases it is easily understood, especially if your vocabulary of the Russian language is sufficient. And in those days, 400 years ago, languages ​​were even closer, although they were no longer dialects of a single language, but clearly related languages, cognates.
      1. Bar2 24 January 2020 22: 15 New
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        Quote: andrew42
        And in those days, 400 years ago, languages ​​were even closer, although they were no longer dialects of a single language, but clearly related languages, cognates.


        you can’t even imagine how close the languages ​​were
        Here is the Statute of the King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth Zhigimont3 1588 published in Krakow

        Section
        Article Г -4
        About the seclusion in peace of all our inhabitants that
        Panama z in the direction of pink understanding and cohabitation
        piety of hrestian.
        And their tezh will prevail and our party is an affirmation
        john peace between the pinks in reliy sterechy. About that and confede
        walkie talkie tereitni secondary between camps corunas Polish
        and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, teaching the whole statute of the word
        in the word, and there is written in it beside her how are we sovereign and all
        the inhabitants of the Tyrannies, and which Confederate
        nation with the Polish constitutions of vodlug rights to every nation
        do the proper Naru language is presented and in the Russian letter everything
        the statute is described
        and word for word, everything is so special.

        not everything is immediately clear, but the most important thing is that King Gigimont transfers all the decisions of the confederation to Russian and to describe them in Russian.


        1. Hantengri 24 January 2020 23: 07 New
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          Quote: Bar2
          but most importantly, King Gigimont transferred all the decisions of the confederation to Russian and to describe them in Russian.

          AND? What did you want to say? The official language of office work in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russian was Russian. Is this a discovery for you?
          1. Bar2 24 January 2020 23: 10 New
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            Quote: HanTengri
            The official language of office work in the ON was the Russian language. Is this a discovery for you?


            Yes, not ON, but Polonium / Poland and we are talking about the constitution of the Sejm i.e. Seimas resolutions in Krakow.
            1. Hantengri 24 January 2020 23: 28 New
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              Quote: Bar2
              Yes, not ON, but Polonius, and we are talking about the constitution of the Sejm i.e. Seimas resolutions in Krakow.


              If you can answer the question: “What was the composition of the coffee federation referred to in the document?”, Then you can probably understand why Sigismund ||| Vase (King Gigimont) ordered "to transfer all the decisions of the confederation to Russian and to describe them in Russian." (C)
              1. Bar2 24 January 2020 23: 34 New
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                Quote: HanTengri
                Quote: Bar2
                Yes, not ON, but Polonius, and we are talking about the constitution of the Sejm i.e. Seimas resolutions in Krakow.


                If you can answer the question: “What was the composition of the coffee federation referred to in the document?”, Then you can probably understand why Sigismund ||| Vase (King Gigimont) ordered "to transfer all the decisions of the confederation to Russian and to describe them in Russian." (C)

                in this very article of r it says "confederation of Poland and on"
                1. Hantengri 24 January 2020 23: 37 New
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                  Then specially, for those who are in the tank. Encore".
                  Quote: HanTengri
                  The official language of office work in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russian was Russian. Is this a discovery for you?
                  1. Bar2 24 January 2020 23: 49 New
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                    Quote: HanTengri
                    Then specially, for those who are in the tank. Encore".
                    Quote: HanTengri
                    The official language of office work in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Russian was Russian. Is this a discovery for you?

                    Are you a fan of walking in circles? It was clear in Lithuania that this was clear to students of the history department who read the Bible of Francis Skorina in Russian, I am talking about Poland. Zygimont himself a Pole and the provisions of the statute were for the confederation of Poland and incl.
                    1. Hantengri 25 January 2020 00: 12 New
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                      Quote: Bar2
                      Gigimont himself a Pole and the provisions of the statute were for the confederation of Poland and ON.

                      And what was the official language of office work in ON? 2 + 2 to add is not fate? Are you really so crazy or are you @ kidding?

                      PS Sigismund 3 Vase is not a Pole, but a Swede (for dad).
                      1. Bar2 25 January 2020 00: 34 New
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                        I regret talking to you.
  3. Vladimir_2U 24 January 2020 06: 51 New
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    Yes, much reminds the beginning of the twentieth century, much, but not all. Fortunately, in the twentieth century, the Russian people were still much faster able to decide who to follow.
  4. rocket757 24 January 2020 07: 57 New
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    How Polish and Russian "thieves" tried to capture the treasures of the Trinity

    Troubles, a favorite time for all sorts of different, rob the most THAT!
    Times, however, have changed ... now they are robbing, sitting in the silence of cabinets, no less effective!
  5. sergo1914 24 January 2020 09: 11 New
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    . accusing treason of the treasurer of the monastery Joseph Detochkin


    Freedom to Joseph Detochkin!
  6. Olgovich 24 January 2020 09: 21 New
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    Trinity-Sergius Monastery and Smolensk-samples of the hardness of the Russian spirit, which showed as need to stand for Russia.
  7. Sovpadenie 24 January 2020 10: 11 New
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    Was this summer in the laurel. Impressed by a hole from the Polish core at the door of Trinity Cathedral
  8. Timurleng 24 January 2020 10: 23 New
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    Is it ever interesting that the Poles will reconcile with Russia or the enemies forever ?!
  9. Operator 24 January 2020 10: 47 New
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    The grammar would be corrected and an excellent article would turn out.
  10. Ryazan87 24 January 2020 11: 57 New
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    If someone is interested in reading about Russian artillery of the 661686th century, A.N. Lobin "Artillery of Ivan the Terrible" https://www.litmir.me/bd/?b=XNUMX
    Fresh, very informative work, written in good literary language.
    R.S. Baru2 is unlikely to help, but you never know ...
  11. Senior seaman 24 January 2020 12: 48 New
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    However, the soldiers of the detachment Ivan Vnukov

    Ivanа Grandsonsа.
  12. Sergei Novozhilov 25 January 2020 09: 14 New
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    The story of the battle of 1614 at Sermax. Type in the search engine "sermaksa-silver file"
  13. karabass 25 January 2020 12: 36 New
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    Good article! But I was puzzled how to spend so much effort in such a way, and when the richest military booty was already close, so crap! Either the author did not fully disclose the reasons for the failure of Sapega, or you will believe in God