You need to fight for memory


History winners write. There is probably no person who does not know this expression. It is difficult to argue with this statement. Indeed, it is the winners who have great opportunities to truthfully tell about everything that happened, objectively, on the basis of documents and other available evidence.


Understanding of historical processes from the "truth-seekers" from the Internet


For many decades, they have been proving to us that our history connected with the Great Patriotic War is just a well-written play. That, in fact, everything was exactly the opposite. And, worst of all, many people have appeared among us who agree with this.

Personally, I have not met a person who would never have heard or read the opinion about the unnecessary victory over fascism. “If we had not won, we would have been drinking Bavarian beer now, and not the bourd that we call beer” ...

I’m not talking about politicians, public oppositionists or traitors who fled abroad. I’m talking about ordinary citizens of Russia who do not really understand what is happening. About those who "fundamentally" do not watch TV. By the way, somehow imperceptibly it was “not watching TV” that became a kind of test for a correct understanding of history in Russia. You can’t trust the TV, but you can blogger.

Where does the “new history” of the Second World come from


But let's look at the story written by us, the winners, on the other hand. Inside out, if you will. Yes, the story we wrote. In my opinion, the origins of those falsifications that breed almost daily in Western countries lie precisely in us.

At the forefront of the attack on the history of World War II, Poland now stands. Why? How could it happen that the liberating soldiers suddenly became invaders? How could it happen that the very fact of the liberation of Poland and its capital is being questioned? How could it happen that the USSR unleashed this war?

Those who are 55-60 years old, remember childhood. How many of us have not watched the beautiful Polish series Four Tankers and a Dog? Who was not sure that the Poles were on our side? That they, the Poles, consisted of "Yaneks", "gusliks" and other heroes of this series?

And not a friend or an enemy, but ...


And how then was the Craiova Army perceived? Yes, they were partisans who independently, without our help, fought against fascism. About the same as the army of Joseph Broz Tito in Yugoslavia. Allies in the struggle, although they did not accept the ideas of socialism.

We bashfully mentioned the traitors from among the Soviet people as a very small group, deceived by fascist propaganda, about illiterate people who, if they were to explain the situation, would return to us and fight on our side.

It was strange for me, then a boy, to see the reaction of the partisan grandfather, who beat the fascists in Belarus, to the Ukrainian movement, which was a lot in the most famous Soviet pre-war films. Grandfather, then a 50-year-old man, simply left at the first words in this language or turned off the TV.

It was later that I learned that my grandmother, my father’s mother, was not my own. That it was Ukrainians who shot their grandmother as the partisan’s wife. It was later that I found out that the inhabitants of a small Belarusian village where my father grew up were driven to the board three times to burn alive. And Ukrainians also wanted to burn my dad. And they saved ... the SS men. They banned the execution, because they knew that the partisans simply would not let them leave in this case.

We, the Soviet ones, have been and remain internationalists who take great care of the image of “friends”. We were silent about the fact that the French fought for Hitler, and only a small part was against it. Although, even then I had questions. For example, why we had partisans, but in France they talk about the Resistance. And so it was with all our "friends."

Even today, this trend exists. Even today, any boy will tell you that we fought with the Germans. The rest, Hungarians, Romanians, and others, it seems, were not there. We even set monuments to the poor occupiers. Near the graves of those they killed. Roman Skomorokhov wrote a lot about this on VO.

How the "new history of war" was born


If the winners take such a position, then what should the conquered do? What should be done to those whose fathers fought on the side of Hitler? They also make up a story. In the beginning, for myself, for my family, for my village. They tell fictional stories about the fight against the Germans. They remove the memory of the atrocities of their own fathers.

After all, it was then that the version of what they fought under duress appeared. There were no volunteers among the punishers. And the atrocities, which are still remembered, were actually carried out by disguised NKVD officers to discredit the patriots. And we swallowed it! This was against our upbringing.

Even the fact that this story made up by our enemies has become “real” for many, we are to blame. Is it a shame? Of course, we became grave diggers of the memory of our fathers and grandfathers. They began without even realizing it. But let's be honest to the end.

Side effect of the collapse of the USSR


After the collapse of the USSR, it was here that we “broke the sewer”. How much dirt surfaced then! It is dirt. How many versions of the famous events of the war were then discussed! Remember the exploits of Zoe Kosmodemyanskoy or Alexander Matrosov. Remember the well-made film "Bastards." Remember the "Shtrafbat". Remember the stories that appeared from somewhere about the atrocities of the NKVD, about hundreds of executed by SMERSH.

Our, excuse me, shit has helped to come up with everything that causes our indignation today. That "family" story, which was invented for their own consumption, became the "real" history of the war. Remember the Ukrainian president Poroshenko, whose father "found out in a concentration camp what real coffee is."

"New History" has long been no fiction of politicians and ideologists. I often hear that people and politicians are different people. Let's not fool ourselves. Politicians - this is part of the people. Does anyone doubt that today in Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic countries and some other countries, people sincerely believe in what the local “historians” are talking about?

Why do they believe it


I sometimes communicate with citizens of these countries. It is hard to believe, but even those who once studied in Soviet schools, today the vast majority believe precisely their historians. To all my arguments in favor of the “old” history, the standard answer follows: “It’s just that you still do not have democracy and the government is hiding the uncomfortable truth.”

Russia has opened part of the archival documents. The documents relate to the liberation of the Polish capital. Everyone can see them on the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. These are facts that are hard to argue against. But will they be perceived precisely as facts? It is doubtful.

And you know why? Yes, simply because for most Poles the site of the RF Ministry of Defense is an empty phrase. How many readers of this material watched the site of the Polish MO? The average layman does not like to look at documents. It is enough for him that on this occasion they will say on television or write in the press.

An example is already there. I’m talking about the response to the publication of the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland, Pavel Jablonski.

“On January 17, 1945, the Red Army entered Warsaw, destroyed after the Warsaw Uprising, when the Red Army stood and watched from the other side of the Vistula how Warsaw was destroyed. This was not liberation, it was the bringing of a new communist captivity, and we must remember this, respecting, of course, individual soldiers. ”

I think this quote is enough to understand the position of Poland. “You're lying.” I would not be surprised if, in a few years, a version appears that the Polish uprising had triumphed. And the Red Army destroyed the victors exhausted by the struggle against the fascists in order to appropriate the victory for themselves.

How should a simple Polish citizen, who knows the history of the Warsaw Uprising at the school level, to perceive a phrase from the quotation that I quoted above. "... The Red Army stood and watched from the other side of the Vistula, how Warsaw is being destroyed." How would we perceive something like this if the matter concerned our capital?

A fight for memory will be brutal


We often hear the expression "hybrid warfare." A universal explanation of everything that happens today. In my opinion, today we are starting a “hybrid war” for the memory of our fathers and grandfathers. Yes, a war whose outcome is unknown. A war that can develop into a hot phase, or can subside to a new aggravation in the future.

The war for memory is a war for Russia. True, any, convenient or inconvenient for us, today, is a guarantee that the tragedy will not happen again. As long as we remember the truth about that war, while we see the mass graves of soldiers of that war, as long as there are memorials of concentration camps, while there are documents of that era, we exist.

They will always blame us for all mortal sins. Just because we won, and they surrendered to Hitler, licked the ass to the Nazis in order to preserve their own skin. So what? No matter how much the jackal Tabaki shouted that he was brave and strong, he was always just a jackal. He does not become a tiger or a man. He is always destined to receive kicks from stronger or bolder ones.

As for Poland, Ukraine, the Baltic states, the cat scratches its ridge. How many times in history has this happened! At first everyone went to the East. Then they ran amicably back from the received kick. And all this happened on the territories of those who today most of all advocate for our death ...
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  1. Vladimir_2U 23 January 2020 16: 31 New
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    And what a long way to go, and in the comments of VO there are enough haters of the Soviet Union, and Vlasov is not particularly shy. In the History section, look.
    1. Svarog 23 January 2020 16: 37 New
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      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And what a long way to go, and in the comments of VO there are enough haters of the Soviet Union, and Vlasov is not particularly shy. In the History section, look.

      Moreover, the USSR is openly despised, like Stalin’s achievements .. and specific facts are cited .. about demographics in the USSR, industrial growth, etc. But liberal figures do not care, they believe that it’s much better now .. when negative demography, when no industry, science .. etc ..
      And even the first person criticizes the USSR .. they say that in the USSR they did not produce anything except galoshes ..
      This is how history is perverted ...
      1. mat-vey 23 January 2020 16: 51 New
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        And then, all of a sudden - oh Poles, ah Japanese, ah villains ...
        1. Svarog 23 January 2020 16: 53 New
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          Quote: mat-vey
          And then, all of a sudden - oh Poles, ah Japanese, ah villains ...

          Here I am about the same thing ... can defend the gallant Great History that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, the undisputed winners created, do you need to start with the first persons of the country? If in your own country the propaganda machine works west, so why blame everyone else ..
          1. mat-vey 23 January 2020 16: 55 New
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            Any capital state was and remains an enemy of the USSR .... guess what country of the Russian Federation?
            1. Svarog 23 January 2020 16: 56 New
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              Quote: mat-vey
              Any capital state was and remains an enemy of the USSR .... guess what country of the Russian Federation?

              Here you don’t even need to guess, just ask Alice .. she will tell everything ..
              1. Lexus 23 January 2020 17: 04 New
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                What kind of "memory" can they talk about and what does the "nouveau riche" have to do with the Great Victory if the flag under which this Victory was won was shamefully lowered in 1991?
                1. Million 24 January 2020 09: 43 New
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                  They privatized the Great Victory. Just like factories, factories, oil and gas ..
                2. Pushkar 24 January 2020 15: 42 New
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                  Quote: lexus
                  What kind of "memory" can they talk about and what does the "nouveau riche" have to do with the Great Victory if the flag under which this Victory was won was shamefully lowered in 1991?

                  At Victory Day parades, the tricolor is carried BEFORE the Victory Banner. Who won?
            2. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 17: 27 New
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              And here is the "social", "cap"? For the West, Russia has always been a bone in the throat, regardless of the form of government. Napoleon attacked the Russian Empire, apparently due to the presence of a socialist system in it?
              1. mat-vey 23 January 2020 17: 36 New
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                They explained everything clearly - it removes all kinds of “fines” from the west and finances a dude, not forgetting to erect monuments to Solzhenitsyn ...
                1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 17: 41 New
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                  What does the penal battalion with Solzhenitsyn have to do with it? Starting from the Battle of the Ice, who just didn’t climb to us from the West: Germans, Poles, Swedes, English, French. It does not matter who was in power: a prince, king, emperor or general secretary.
                  1. mat-vey 23 January 2020 17: 44 New
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                    Really nothing to do with it ... Well, the memory, respectively, is the same with nothing ..
                  2. victor50 23 January 2020 18: 01 New
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                    Quote: AU Ivanov.
                    What does the penal battalion with Solzhenitsyn have to do with it? Starting from the Battle of the Ice, who just didn’t climb to us from the West: Germans, Poles, Swedes, English, French. It does not matter who was in power: a prince, king, emperor or general secretary.

                    But for some reason, Alexander Nevsky, Kutuzov, Bagration, Denis Davydov and. etc. nobody touches. But Zhukov, Stalin, Kosmodemyansk, Gastello, Sailors, etc. always at gunpoint. And it does not occur to anyone to shoot the film "Bastards 1812." It will never succeed in lying to the USSR without defaming the Great Patriotic War.
                    1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 18: 12 New
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                      Recently they beat Nakhimov. A little earlier - Admiral Makarov. And according to Denis Davydov, they also went to the press, they say he was not so heroic, he sat in the rear of the hussar-partisan, drinking champagne. Yes, and Alexander Nevsky poured a barrel of shit, for relations with the Horde. The Kulikovo battle is a fiction, I personally read about it. About the "always drunk" Peter, Catherine the Great with low social responsibility, stories about the Potemkin villages, Suvorov, who the soldier killed in batches. So that not only the Great Patriotic War is slandered - the whole Russian history is slandered.
                      1. mat-vey 23 January 2020 18: 16 New
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                        "..... not only the Great Patriotic War - the whole Russian history is slandered." - really Napoleon tried ...
                      2. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 18: 24 New
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                        Well, the fact that there was no Tatar-Mongol yoke - here, apparently, Tokhtamysh had a hand in it.
                      3. mat-vey 23 January 2020 18: 35 New
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                        No, he scolded Nakhimov with the filing of Napoleon ...
                  3. victor50 23 January 2020 18: 28 New
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                    Quote: AU Ivanov.
                    Recently they beat Nakhimov.

                    You understand what it is about .. laughing
                  4. ccsr 23 January 2020 20: 12 New
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                    Quote: AU Ivanov.
                    So that not only the Great Patriotic War is slandered - the whole Russian history is slandered.

                    I completely agree with this your conclusion, unlike some others.
                2. Octopus 23 January 2020 21: 29 New
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                  Quote: victor50
                  Alexander Nevsky, Kutuzov, Bagration, Denis Davydov

                  It is quite touching. Just a discussion on the same Nevsky is of little interest to anyone, and the theme of the Second World War is swaying on the TV, and armchairs are burning.
              2. Terenin 23 January 2020 22: 51 New
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                Quote: AU Ivanov.
                What does the penal battalion with Solzhenitsyn have to do with it? Starting from the Battle of the Ice, who just didn’t climb to us from the West: Germans, Poles, Swedes, English, French. It does not matter who was in power: a prince, king, emperor or general secretary.

                Oh, belay I did not assume that

                You have to fight for memory
                and that certainly
                A fight for memory will be brutal

                will start so fast ...
                With, uv. hi
          2. parusnik 23 January 2020 19: 25 New
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            Napoleon attacked the Russian Empire, apparently due to the presence of a socialist system in it? For another reason ... Russia violated the terms of the Tilsit peace, well, she didn’t want to join the continental blockade of England, she smuggled everything in, delivered her goods from there and received English in the same way, and it worked out ... And without a complete blockade of England, Napoleon, Britons could not be broken ..
        2. ugol2 23 January 2020 19: 30 New
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          Quote: mat-vey
          Any capital state was and remains an enemy of the USSR .... guess what country of the Russian Federation?

          Let me ask.
          If you are for the USSR, then the Russian Federation is considered an enemy or what?
          It will not be difficult for you to explain your position.
          1. Alf
            Alf 23 January 2020 21: 36 New
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            Quote: ugol2
            If you are for the USSR, then the Russian Federation is considered an enemy or what?

            No need to replace concepts.
            The Soviet Union was a socialist country, present-day Russia is a capitalist country.
            The fact is that now in Russia, representatives of big capital are in power, which is trying by all available means to destroy the memory of the socialist USSR. But it is impossible to destroy the memory of the USSR without destroying the memory of the Second World War, so they are trying.
            Today, through all the central channels, all day long the pretenders like Putin thanked Israel for keeping the memory of WW2. Interestingly, Himself was not ashamed that in His country it was His party that burns out the memory of the Second World War?
          2. mat-vey 24 January 2020 14: 13 New
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            Quote: ugol2
            Quote: mat-vey
            Any capital state was and remains an enemy of the USSR .... guess what country of the Russian Federation?

            Let me ask.
            If you are for the USSR, then the Russian Federation is considered an enemy or what?
            It will not be difficult for you to explain your position.

            Well, Alf answered you almost for me.
            1. Alf
              Alf 24 January 2020 22: 06 New
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              Quote: mat-vey
              Well, Alf answered you almost for me.

              hi
      2. antivirus 23 January 2020 18: 13 New
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        but freedom is not given by silver, who pays off attracts a master ..
      3. NordUral 26 January 2020 20: 31 New
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        This will already be done by the people’s power when we bring these to the polls. Just need to unite for this. And these are imprisoned for the destruction of both our memory and our country, once ours.
        1. mat-vey 27 January 2020 15: 15 New
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          Do you grow into vibrators?
          1. NordUral 28 January 2020 10: 24 New
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            mat-vey! I believe, but on condition that all or almost all the people wake up, the patriotic opposition will unite and put forward a candidate (candidates) that suits the people.
            And on voting days, everyone will go to the polls, vote, and activists will monitor the turnout and the count in the precincts.
            But it will not be possible to stop falsifications or protest the result of falsifications - there is always option No. 2, but it is advisable to endure these peacefully.
            1. mat-vey 28 January 2020 15: 08 New
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              Sorry - but you are naive as a child.
              1. NordUral 28 January 2020 21: 04 New
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                Maybe. It is a pity that there are a lot of wise ones like you.
                1. mat-vey 29 January 2020 14: 55 New
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                  It is a pity that adults believe in fairy tales - scoundrels and villains make good use of them ..
                  1. NordUral 29 January 2020 17: 28 New
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                    It is a pity that adults believe in fairy tales - scoundrels and villains make good use of them ..

                    We think the same way, I see, but with different polarity.
  2. Lexus 23 January 2020 16: 52 New
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    This is how history is perverted ...

    Judah and Memory privatized. Therefore, they drape the Mausoleum, the burial places of the Marshals of Victory, cover up the Star, Hammer and Sickle on the Banner of Victory.


    They have their own struggle. If you see a coincidence, I do not blame you. hi
    1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 08 New
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      Quote: lexus
      Therefore, they drape the Mausoleum, the burial places of the Marshals of Victory, cover up the Star, Hammer and Sickle on the Banner of Victory.

      To betray fathers, grandfathers, all those who died and were not born, to lick pots from the west. How Earth mother is wearing such.
    2. ugol2 23 January 2020 19: 25 New
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      To tell the truth, that's all.

      The column of military equipment, which passed before the audience half an hour later than the incident, was led by the T-34 tank

      The Ministry of Defense indirectly in response to a request from State Duma deputy Denis Parfyonov confirmed that the appearance of the copy of the Victory Banner used at the celebrations did not match the original.
      We are talking about the fact that the Victory Banner at the parade was presented without a five-pointed star, a sickle and a hammer.
      The letter of the Ministry of Defense notes that following the results of the proceedings “guilty officials were brought to various types of disciplinary liability”.
      “Copies of the Victory Banner used in military parades and other events with the participation of troops in the cities of the Russian Federation have been checked and brought into line with the original,” the letter signed by the acting Minister of Defense Valery Gerasimov said.
  • solzh 23 January 2020 16: 55 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And what a long way to go, and in the comments of VO there are enough haters of the Soviet Union, and Vlasov is not particularly shy. In the History section, look.

    For many decades now they have been proving to us that our history connected with the Great Patriotic War is just a well-written play

    I myself have come across such a freak recently on the site. And today there was someone who justified the Vlasovites.
    1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 09 New
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      Quote: solzh
      I myself have come across such a freak recently on the site. And today there was someone who justified the Vlasovites.

      Every day we are already faced with them. When you see a minus in your comment, it means I met today.
      1. Octopus 23 January 2020 21: 31 New
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        Quote: tihonmarine
        When you see a minus in your comment, it means I met today.

        Not necessary. For example, I never minus.
  • tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 04 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Already Vlasov is not particularly shy.

    God forbid that Vlasovites, like Bandera and SSovtsy, begin to march through Russian cities and villages.
  • Aaron Zawi 23 January 2020 17: 14 New
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    History is the facts. And the facts can be silenced, but impossible to erase. They will accent anyway.
  • Vend 23 January 2020 17: 33 New
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    Why are the USSR frantically criticized? Because others are frantically praising the USSR. The Union lacked both good and bad, as in any country in the world. That's when both sides learn to recognize the good and the bad in the USSR, then the conflict will disappear. And they will come up with a new question because of which it will be necessary to nibble each other laughing
    1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 20: 45 New
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      Quote: Wend
      That's when both sides learn to recognize the good and the bad in the USSR, then the conflict will disappear.

      This is not a conflict, but massive pressure on Russia, the successor to the USSR. This pressure is in order to erase from the memory of people that they are Russians, that they are winners, and that the West will never stop, it is necessary to fight it constantly, to clean up the honor of the country and its people. And stop the tactics of ostrich "head under the wing."
      1. cradle 24 January 2020 04: 55 New
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        up to a fight, and if a fight is inevitable, beat first ... said the classic laughing
  • AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 19: 37 New
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    The communist, General Vlasov, is a traitor to the Motherland, who voluntarily offered his services to the Nazis. And the hater of the Soviet system, General Denikin flatly refused to cooperate with the Nazis.
    1. rich 24 January 2020 00: 17 New
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      "I do not see the Bolsheviks with all my heart, who took my homeland from me, and I am grateful to them from the bottom of my heart for saving her from Hitler's abomination." (A.I. Denikin "The Way of the Russian Officer")
    2. Mik13 24 January 2020 02: 21 New
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      Quote: AU Ivanov.
      And the hater of the Soviet system, General Denikin flatly refused to cooperate with the Nazis.

      Of course, because Denikin did his best to cooperate with the Americans. Who directly loved the USSR so much that they couldn’t eat. Especially after the war. But McCarthyism and plans for nuclear strikes against the USSR — these are exclusively from love.
      1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 05 New
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        Quote: Mik13
        Denikin with might and main collaborated with the Americans

        Lived in occupied France and collaborated with the Americans? Brave man.
        Quote: Mik13
        Who directly loved the USSR so much that they couldn’t eat.

        You see. The peaceful coexistence with the USSR was mainly spoken by people who did not come into close contact with the USSR. Well, or comrades of a special plan, like Senator Sanders. And so the desire to solve something with the USSR is quite natural. The Americans came to this idea much later than it should.
    3. Vladimir_2U 24 January 2020 03: 31 New
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      Quote: AU Ivanov.
      Communist, General Vlasov - a traitor to the motherland, who voluntarily offered his services to the Nazis

      The same "communist" as Yeltsin, Gorbachev, Shevarnadze, Yakovlev, do you also consider them Communists?
      1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 06 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        do you think they are also communists?

        Do you already have members of the Politburo not communists?
        1. Vladimir_2U 24 January 2020 08: 07 New
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          Didn’t pay attention to the quotes?
          1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 20 New
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            This is the question. Why do you have the Secretary-General of our glorious party - the communist in quotation marks?
            1. Vladimir_2U 24 January 2020 08: 30 New
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              He has not yet died, please contact him whether he is a real communist or who has clung to him, or to GDP, he was also considered a communist at one time, but he will suddenly clarify it as a real one, or in quotation marks. I would refer you to Vlasov for clarification, but that would be impolite.
      2. tihonmarine 24 January 2020 09: 10 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The same "communist" as Yeltsin, Gorbachev, Shevarnadze, Yakovlev, do you also consider them Communists?

        Trotsky is also a communist, but of another spill. And all the aforementioned Caudle plus Khrushchev, also of the same spill.
        1. Vladimir_2U 24 January 2020 09: 11 New
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          Absolutely Yes! Or not absolute, but yes anyway.
        2. solzh 24 January 2020 13: 56 New
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          Quote: tihonmarine
          Trotsky is also a communist

          Wow! Since when is Trotsky a communist? He was a constitutional monarchist, then a Sparkler, was a Menshevik, created the August bloc, headed the Mezhrayonites and only in July-August 1917, in connection with the unification of the RSDLP (b) with the Mezhrayonovtsy, became a part of the Communists. Something like this...
          1. tihonmarine 24 January 2020 15: 23 New
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            Quote: solzh
            in July-August 1917, in connection with the merger of the RSDLP (b) with the Mezhrayonovtsy became part of the Communists.

            It would be better if he did not enter.
            1. solzh 24 January 2020 15: 27 New
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              Quote: tihonmarine
              It would be better if he did not enter

              Here I completely agree with you hi
              1. Octopus 24 January 2020 17: 50 New
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                How many people are better than V.I. Lenin knows who to appoint the chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council, is directly surprising.
                1. solzh 24 January 2020 17: 57 New
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                  There is nothing to be surprised, as history has shown everything.
                  1. Octopus 24 January 2020 18: 15 New
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                    Quote: solzh
                    history has shown everything

                    If V.I. Lenin in a dream saw what history showed, Comrade Stalin to the wall before breakfast.
                    1. solzh 24 January 2020 18: 22 New
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                      For what? For the fact that he increased the territory of the USSR ?, For the fact that Stalin expanded the zone of influence of the USSR to unprecedented proportions? For the fact that he shot Tukhacheshevsky, Blucher and others?
                    2. mat-vey 25 January 2020 05: 55 New
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                      What’s the matter? After all, Lenin was a German spy (although some now claim to be Aglitsky), and Stalin completely defeated Germany ...
                    3. solzh 25 January 2020 13: 26 New
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                      Quote: mat-vey
                      and Stalin completely defeated Germany

                      Now I understand ...
                      Quote: mat-vey
                      After all, Lenin was a German spy (although now some argue that Aglitsky)

                      Well, then, give ... laughing
                    4. mat-vey 26 January 2020 05: 22 New
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                      “Well, they’ll give in ...” - and at the highest level.
                2. Octopus 25 January 2020 10: 18 New
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                  I think that the main members of the stability question from this point of view are such members of the Central Committee as Stalin and Trotsky. Relations between them, in my opinion, constitute the greater half of the danger of a split that could be avoided and which, in my opinion, should serve, among other things, to increase the number of members of the Central Committee to 50, up to 100 people.

                  Comrade Having become Secretary General, Stalin concentrated immense power in his hands, and I am not sure if he will always be able to use this power with caution. On the other hand, comrade Trotsky, as his struggle against the Central Committee in connection with the question of the NKPS has already proved, is not only distinguished by outstanding abilities. Personally, he is perhaps the most capable person in the present Central Committee, but also excessively lacking in self-confidence and excessive enthusiasm for the purely administrative side of the matter.

                  Stalin is too rude, and this flaw, quite tolerable in the environment and in communications between us Communists, becomes intolerant in the post of Secretary General. Therefore, I suggest that the comrades consider a way to move Stalin from this place. and appoint to this place another person who in all other respects differs from comrade Stalin was only one advantage, namely, more tolerant, more loyal, more polite and more attentive to his comrades, less capricious. This fact may seem like an insignificant trifle. But I think that from the point of view of safeguarding against schism and from the point of view of what I wrote above about the relationship between Stalin and Trotsky, this is not a trifle, or it is such a trifle that can be decisive.


                  I do not like Lenin (all of a sudden), but the Stalinist version of development is not what he wanted, and this is a fact, not an assumption. Comrade Stalin, the Communists of principle do not like to talk about it, destroyed the CPSU (b) as a political party. A party, even such a peculiar one as the CPSU (B.), Cannot exist in the conditions of a brutal personalistic dictatorship. Yes, this zombie existed for many years, and after Stalin, and even for some time inspired by its scale. But there was nothing alive there already in the 30th. Voting, pure "United Russia", but with Mausers.
  • AU Ivanov. 24 January 2020 10: 13 New
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    Naturally. And who are they? Moreover, they are not just communists, but high-ranking ones.
  • solzh 24 January 2020 13: 59 New
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    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    Communist, General Vlasov - a traitor to the motherland

    Traitors are not political in color. Vlasov is a traitor.
    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    And the hater of the Soviet system, General Denikin flatly refused to cooperate with the Nazis.

    But first he collaborated with the Entente, then with the United States against the Soviet government, and therefore against his homeland.
    1. Octopus 24 January 2020 14: 18 New
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      Quote: solzh
      against the Soviet government, and therefore against their homeland.

      This is why suddenly the Soviet government became the homeland for Lieutenant General Denikin? Not everyone, like Brusilov, can take the oath three times. Well, that is, not everyone could have done it before, Marshal Akhromeev was probably so last, inflexible.
      1. solzh 24 January 2020 15: 38 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        This is why suddenly the Soviet government became the homeland for Lieutenant General Denikin?

        I’m telling you something else.
        Well, for example. I am not a supporter of the current government. But this does not mean that I will run / run into the arms of the West, so that the West would come to my country as a "liberator". I will never, under any circumstances, cooperate with the enemies of my country. And he began to cooperate with the United States, or at least he wanted to ...
        1. Octopus 24 January 2020 17: 54 New
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          Quote: solzh
          I will never, under any circumstances, cooperate with the enemies of my country. And he began to cooperate with the United States

          You do not know how your life will turn out for you and for Russia. It may happen that people who call themselves the government of Russia will be worse for you than any America. Like this certainly was for Denikin.

          Well conditionally, a great man, doctor, professor, hero of Russia Ramazan Akhmatovich Kadyrov becomes president of Russia. There will be no thoughts about collaborating with enemies, no?
          1. solzh 24 January 2020 18: 14 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Well conditionally, a great man, doctor, professor, hero of Russia Ramazan Akhmetovich Kadyrov becomes president of Russia. There will be no thoughts about collaborating with enemies, no?

            Look what happens in the history of our country. Prince of Kievan Rus - Svyatoslav the Great - according to some sources, father Rurik is a Varangian of Sweden, according to other Varangians from the island of Rugen, a Slav of Polaba. Catherine 2 the Great - German. Joseph Vissarionovich - Georgian. Ivan the Terrible - there is so much mixed up that it’s hard to say who he is by nationality. In other words, the rulers under whom significantly, at times, increased the territory of Russia, were not Russian.
            At the same time, under the Russian rulers: Alexei Mikhailovich Romanov, the final enslavement of the peasants took place. under Peter 1 — they killed the Russian identity by introducing European values, under Alexander 2 — they sold Alaska, under Nicholas 2 — there began a turmoil that put an end to the empire, humpback, ebn — the collapse of the Soviet state and the genocide of the people. That somehow it turns out ...
            1. Octopus 25 January 2020 00: 43 New
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              You see, I seem to have been misunderstood. I am not a fan of the caliper and refinement, whose grandmother with whom spent her youth. To the rulers I belong, excuse me, consumer, which is partly close to your interpretation.

              But only in part. Once again, I observe how fans of Comrade Stalin is considered the homeland - in kilometers. I, as a former liberal, consider it in people.

              Accordingly, from the proposed list:
              Alexander. For me, the fact that 2,5 thousand Russian people (and about 60 thousand aborigines) moved from Russian does not have the slightest sacred significance citizenship to american citizenship 50 years earlier than this would have happened in alternative reality. For some reason it seems to me that they are unlikely to lose. This deal allowed the rest of Russia to partially expand the crisis in international relations that Nikolai created with his tight government. By far the best on the list. But a loser.

              Svyatoslav. I am inclined to accept Soloviev’s definition.
              Svyatoslav is represented by the model of a warrior-prince who, with his chosen retinue, left the Russian land for the exploits of the distant, glorious for him and useless for his native land

              That is, in relation to the Russian people (or what was there in the XNUMXth century), the prince kept neutrality. Not bad.

              Gorbachev, Yeltsin - about the same level. Harm, but not too much. The peoples of Central Asia can have many complaints to them, the Balts should be grateful to them, Russians are also generally in the black. I’ll separately designate my mother’s demographers. No, the victims of the commissar Nagans and the victims of the Yeltsin spirit Royal are completely different victims. I distinguish between dead children and unborn.

              Catherine. It was also relatively neutral towards the Russian people, but much less. And her desire to climb into European wars, and Pugachevism, and even a single Ivan VI. Not great, not terrible.

              Nikolay. It laid the foundation for an ocean of blood, but its most part was shed after its loss of power. The combination of villainy and incompetence with a huge preponderance of incompetence.

              Peter. Cannibal.

              Alexey the Quiet. Cannibal. But his war with the Russian people - Nikonianism - in contrast to the war of Peter did not have any practical meaning at all, one empty arrogance and the itch of reformism.

              Stalin, the Terrible. No comments.
              1. solzh 25 January 2020 01: 05 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                You see, I seem to have been misunderstood.

                Did I understand you correctly. But you misunderstood me. The meaning of my answer is that it does not matter who will be in power in the Kremlin, the main thing is that he will do for Russia and its people.
                Quote: Octopus
                Gorbachev, Yeltsin - about the same level. Harm, but not too much. The peoples of Central Asia can have many complaints to them, the Balts should be grateful to them, Russians are also generally in the black.

                Just the opposite. The biggest complaints are with Russians. Before them, apart from the Great Patriotic War, there was no Russian genocide. The genocide of the Russian people was only under their rule and with their criminal connivance. I understand that in Europe you see everything that is happening with us differently. But this is an illusion and self-deception. You think that there were commissioners who walked in leather jackets and with a revolver in their hands and killed people, but this is not so. All this is a myth about commissars.
                For today I think everything. If we can continue tomorrow. We have in Ulyanovsk already 2 am. hi
                1. Octopus 25 January 2020 01: 41 New
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                  Quote: solzh
                  You think that there were commissioners who walked in leather jackets and with a revolver in their hands and killed people, but this is not so. All this is a myth about commissars.

                  Already laid out a piece of Comrade letter. Sholokhov comrade Stalin on grain procurement. I did not spread the whole text, but it consists of blood and guts almost entirely.
                  This is comrade Sholokhov induced illusions?
                  Quote: solzh
                  The genocide of the Russian people was only under their rule and with their criminal connivance

                  No one is obliged to love B.N. Yeltsin, I myself do not like him (I generally dislike a lot of people). But I have to note that in the year of the 75th anniversary of the Great Victory, we should somehow put things in order in the use of the word "genocide". You see, I find it immoral to call those killed during Hitler’s time

                  and those killed during the time of Yeltsin

                  in the same word.
              2. ccsr 25 January 2020 11: 47 New
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                Quote: Octopus
                No comment.

                How about a higher idea for all of you listed? You intentionally exclude it, or you do not want to take into account that philosophical judgments about the “role of the individual in history” appeared long before the Bolsheviks, and this is an objective factor in the development of our country. I mean, to compare Stalin and Lenin with Gorbachev and Yeltsin, to put it mildly, what to compare well ... with a finger.
                1. Octopus 25 January 2020 12: 01 New
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                  Quote: ccsr
                  How about a higher idea for all of you listed?

                  What do you want to say? What if Andrei Romanovich Chikatilo killed children simply because it was nice, and Anatoly Yurievich Onoprienko did the same because he was ordered so by higher forces, I should not intentionally exclude the “higher idea”, evaluating their actions?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  compare Stalin and Lenin with Gorbachev and Yeltsin, to put it mildly, what to compare ... with a finger.

                  You are right, of course. Yeltsin and Gorbachev against Stalin and Lenin are like a carpenter against a joiner.
                  1. ccsr 25 January 2020 17: 51 New
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                    Quote: Octopus
                    "higher idea", evaluating their actions?

                    No fraud - criminals generally can not have a higher idea from the point of view of a normal person.
                    Quote: Octopus
                    Yeltsin and Gorbachev against Stalin and Lenin are like a carpenter against a joiner.

                    They are not suitable in scale - Lenin and Stalin entered the hundred geniuses in the entire history of mankind, along with Lomonosov, and this is not our assessment, but foreign scientists who have studied the phenomenon of genius.
          2. Fishery 24 January 2020 21: 43 New
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            I agree completely
    2. tihonmarine 24 January 2020 15: 30 New
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      Quote: solzh
      Traitors are not political in color. Vlasov is a traitor.

      He was born like that.
  • ccsr 23 January 2020 20: 10 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And what a long way to go, and in the comments of VO there are enough haters of the Soviet Union, and Vlasov is not particularly shy. In the History section, look.

    I completely agree with you, because in the "History" section it is sometimes true that such a bacchanalia takes place regarding the discussion of some issues of military history, that one wonders if our people are stupid, or this is a special operation to misinform our people. In order not to go far, I’ll only report on how one illiterate man in military affairs with foam at the mouth proves that intelligence slept on the eve of the war, although he has no idea how intelligence agencies work. And one illiterate agreed to the fact that since the Moscow Air Defense District did not raise the alarm on June 21, it means that they did not wait for war. And she was not aware that the Germans simply could not physically organize the bombing of the capital, and the first took place only a month after the start of the war, from the captured airfields on our territory.
    Here is an example of how these liars act:
    In that there are no other intelligence materials that would warn the leadership of the spacecraft and the Soviet Union about the outbreak of war on June 22, the first military report of the Republic of Uzbekistan confirms.

    https://topwar.ru/166370-1941-razvedka-o-shtabah-nemeckih-armij-i-tankovyh-grupp.html#comment-id-10015640
    Indeed, we must fight for OUR history, and not the one that various rogues are trying to impose on us.
  • verp19 24 January 2020 14: 48 New
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    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And what a long way to go, and in the comments of VO there are enough haters of the Soviet Union

    Don't you understand that there is no talk about historical truth, as such, but about which myth do you like more?
  • Andrey Chistyakov 23 January 2020 16: 35 New
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    Good article. Correct.
    Here are the consequences of the collapse of the USSR. The mongrels were choked.
    If they knew in 1991 no one would give these “democrats" a single chance.
    It’s good that Poland began to answer. And then everyone was silent.
    1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 12 New
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      Quote: Andrey Chistyakov
      Here are the consequences of the collapse of the USSR. The mongrels were choked.

      These are the consequences of the long work of these "yard", which led to the collapse. And we watch them every week on TV.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Kleber 23 January 2020 18: 47 New
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      Quote: Andrey Chistyakov
      It’s good that Poland began to answer. And then everyone was silent.


      The main thing is not to end here, but to continue to crush with other documents until Poland cries from the facts that have fallen on it. So that others are not strangers.
      1. Andrey Chistyakov 23 January 2020 18: 50 New
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        Quote: Kleber
        Quote: Andrey Chistyakov
        It’s good that Poland began to answer. And then everyone was silent.


        The main thing is not to end here, but to continue to crush with other documents until Poland cries from the facts that have fallen on it. So that others are not strangers.

        Yeah, where to end. It is necessary to finish with documents.
        1. Kleber 23 January 2020 18: 54 New
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          I’m only afraid our Medveputy will not finish the job again.
          1. Andrey Chistyakov 23 January 2020 18: 54 New
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            Quote: Kleber
            I’m only afraid our Medveputy will not finish the job again.

            Well no. In the process, they took it seriously.
            1. Kleber 23 January 2020 18: 55 New
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              Time will tell.
  • Malevich 23 January 2020 16: 37 New
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    I read it to the moment when the grandfather of the author of the article hated the Ukrainian speech, because the Ukrainians wanted to kill him ...
    Forgive me generously, but when the native speaker of your own language, let’s say he tries to kill you, then stop talking at all?
    And the fact that on the fields of the Great Patriotic War along with the Russians, Belarusians and other nationalities inhabiting the USSR, millions of Ukrainians died - where to put this fact in the context of this article?
    I understand that today it is a kind of trend, to blame Ukrainians for everything, but to dig so deeply, as much as 75 years ago and find the roots of Ukrainian rejection, you need to be able to.
    1. neri73-r 23 January 2020 16: 46 New
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      Quote: Malevich
      grow me generously, and when the native speaker of your own language, let’s say he tries to kill you, then stop speaking at all?

      You take the discussion aside, this is not about that.
    2. nm76 23 January 2020 16: 48 New
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      My grandfather is Ukrainian, during the Second World War he was a colonel of traction (railway troops), it was marked by military awards ...
      The author’s words about mov, I think on the eve of the 75th anniversary of the Victory are insulting to millions of descendants of those Ukrainians who laid their heads in the crucible of the war.
      1. Dur_mod 23 January 2020 17: 17 New
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        The author, in turn, incites ethnic hatred with the words:

        It was later that I learned that my grandmother, my father’s mother, was not my own. That it was Ukrainians who shot their grandmother as the partisan’s wife. It was later that I found out that the inhabitants of a small Belarusian village where my father grew up were driven to the board three times to burn alive. And Ukrainians also wanted to burn my dad. And they saved ... the SS men. They banned the execution, because they knew that the partisans simply would not let them leave in this case.

        Those. not Bendera, policemen, namely Ukrainians! And Kozhedub is also like a Ukrainian, is he also an enemy? Like millions of Ukrainians who fought shoulder to shoulder with the Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs, and all the peoples of the USSR. In Kiev, for example, the firing squad in Babi Yar also consisted of Ukrainians and the people of Kiev massively extradited Jews and Communists to the Germans during the occupation as a reward. And my Ukrainian grandfather, the same Ukrainians-Bandera didn’t cut up in the barracks at night in 1946, 2 of the company were left alive, then six months of the hospital and commissioning. And the German doctor who treated the villagers during the war, even the partisans did not touch him, only he alone could safely move around the area without protection. So maybe it's not a nationality, but an idea that moves people?
        1. parusnik 23 January 2020 19: 37 New
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          Those. not Bendera, policemen, namely Ukrainians!
          ... More precisely, they are not traitors to their people .... And there were enough of them among other nationalities ... Yes, and notice when they write about the current regime in Ukraine, they call it Bandera, not Petlyuro-Bandera, and that would be right .. .Type Petlyura, good ... one of the Democrats ... laughing
      2. Kleber 23 January 2020 17: 38 New
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        Quote: nm76
        The author’s words about mov, I think on the eve of the 75th anniversary of the Victory are insulting to millions of descendants of those Ukrainians who laid their heads in the crucible of the war.


        In Ukraine, most still prefer to communicate in Russian. They are forced to learn mov, to communicate on mov both legally, and morally and physically. And after all, what is the nuance, make you talk on a mov those whose grandfathers served in the SS "Galicia", in the banned Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and in other nationalist and pro-fascist gangs. And forbid thewhose grandfathers fought in combat units, underground and in partisan detachments of the USSR.
      3. GenNick 23 January 2020 20: 32 New
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        The author wrote a custom article ...
        In the seventh decade of my life, I learned that universal evil is Ukraine and the liberals ...
      4. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 05 New
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        I hesitate to correct ... Little Russians ... there are no Ukrainians. These are the same Russians, ethnically and genetically.
        1. ccsr 24 January 2020 11: 18 New
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          Quote: besik
          I hesitate to correct ... Little Russians ... there are no Ukrainians. These are the same Russians, ethnically and genetically.

          The trouble is that the Russian people living in Ukraine so easily convinced themselves that they became a cut above other Russians and imagined themselves to be Ukrainians only on the basis of speaking one of the dialects of our language, which was transformed into "mov "Ukrainian nationalists are purely selfish. I think that they will never get rid of their Ukrainians, which means, as one fool said, "we will never be brothers," and we have to put up with this.
    3. carstorm 11 23 January 2020 17: 15 New
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      not at all. you are trying to personal tragedy of a person and the reaction to it in some kind of system to build what is silly by definition. I am German and carry my last name like my German ancestors. and I know how my grandfather came across many times those who reacted violently to this. but these were people who survived such that no one would blame them. the person remembered what he remembered and the reaction to the speech of the people who killed his loved one is quite normal. you didn’t need to defend all Ukrainians now, which by the way is not necessary at all because no one forgets their exploits and merits. and to condemn those freaks that created and denigrated the real Ukrainians. And now you look like those whom you described in the article. Do you think no one here knows that the policemen also spoke Russian?
      1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 17: 22 New
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        In fact, our grandfathers fought with those who divided people by nationality. My grandmother is a St. Petersburg German, the entire blockade in the hospital by a surgeon.
    4. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 17 New
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      Quote: Malevich
      I understand that today it’s a kind of trend to blame Ukrainians for everything, but to dig so deep,

      It’s not the Ukrainians who are blamed, but the collaborators and murderers of their Soviet People.
      1. Malevich 23 January 2020 17: 23 New
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        What shot the grandmother it is Ukrainians - like a partisan’s wife. It was later that I found out that the inhabitants of a small Belarusian village where my father grew up were driven to the board three times to burn alive. And they wanted to burn my dad too Ukrainians.
    5. Pavel Yashkov 23 January 2020 17: 44 New
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      He means that the grandfather did not say anything bad about it. Those. He didn’t swear over his eyes and did not say bad things, he simply cut down everything. And then he himself found out how it was, and why he turned off the TV.
      1. Malevich 23 January 2020 17: 49 New
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        It was the Ukrainians who shot it ...
        Ukrainians also wanted to burn ...
        Not policemen, not collaborators, not traitors, not servants of the enemy - namely, the people!
        I hope you understand the essence of not only my complaints!
        1. New Year day 24 January 2020 00: 07 New
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          Quote: Malevich
          It was the Ukrainians who shot it ...
          Ukrainians also wanted to burn ...

          let's not personalize politics. My grandfather had such an opinion, but note, I never said that. He had the right to it; that was his truth. Raising this issue, we ourselves incite ethnic hatred. It's all about the actions of man, and not his nationality
  • neri73-r 23 January 2020 16: 44 New
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    We will fight! Everyone can.
  • Po-tzan 23 January 2020 16: 45 New
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    For many decades, they have been proving to us that our history connected with the Great Patriotic War is just a well-written play.


    Partially open archives contribute to this, which must either be completely closed or completely declassified. So, let’s say they poke me in the face with the report of the Chief Military Prosecutor N. Afanasyev “On 28 Panfilovites” dated May 10, 1948 as a result of the investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office, which is kept in the fund of the USSR Prosecutor’s Office (GA RF. F. R-8131), which says that the story of 28 Panfilov’s is not true. What do you propose to cover with?

    1. vvvjak 23 January 2020 16: 56 New
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      Quote: PO-tzan
      What do you propose to cover with?

      The fact that maybe this particular feat was not there, but there were thousands (if not tens of thousands) of similar ones.
    2. pmkemcity 23 January 2020 17: 17 New
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      Vasiliev is our Kemerovochanin. There is Vasiliev Street, and the star found the hero on time.
    3. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 17: 19 New
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      Well, let 28 Panfilov be a collective way. The 316th Infantry really stood to its death. And it is very unfortunate that we know only about 28 Panfilov heroes, in reality there were much more. How many soldiers lie unburied in the ground, about whose feat we will never know.
      1. New Year day 24 January 2020 00: 18 New
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        Quote: AU Ivanov.
        How many soldiers lie unburied in the ground, about whose feat we will never know.


        But this is a shame of the state! It was in the Union, it is now. It is enough to read how the Moscow-Leningrad highway was built in Myasnoy Bor
        1. AU Ivanov. 24 January 2020 10: 17 New
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          Now at least the search engines have been given a green street. Under the Union, there were only fanfares, and the bones were raked into a heap with a bulldozer.
          1. Alf
            Alf 24 January 2020 22: 11 New
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            Quote: AU Ivanov.
            Now at least the search engines have been given a green street.

            What exactly ? Give transport and inventory? Free travel to the excavation site?
            1. AU Ivanov. 24 January 2020 22: 15 New
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              Do not bother them. Transport, by the way, is also distinguished.
              1. Alf
                Alf 24 January 2020 22: 18 New
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                Quote: AU Ivanov.
                Do not bother them.

                But did they interfere before?
                Quote: AU Ivanov.
                Transport, by the way, is also distinguished.

                Already good.
                But, anyway, everything comes at the expense of activists.
                1. AU Ivanov. 24 January 2020 22: 24 New
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                  The MO helped us. There are personal donations.
                  1. Alf
                    Alf 24 January 2020 22: 52 New
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                    Quote: AU Ivanov.
                    The MO helped us. There are personal donations.

                    Well what can I say, you are lucky.
    4. carstorm 11 23 January 2020 17: 22 New
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      Why is it covered? legends are created in any war. sometimes on their own, sometimes specifically for people to raise morale. this is normal for any war and any time.
    5. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 23 New
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      Quote: PO-tzan
      Let’s say they poke me in the face with the report of the Chief Military Prosecutor N. Afanasyev “On 28 Panfilovites” dated May 10, 1948 as a result of the investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office, which is kept in the fund of the USSR Prosecutor’s Office (State Archive of the Russian Federation. F. R-8131)

      But for some reason there is one source about Ivan Dobrobabin, and what was written further is not there. Again pulled out what they need.
    6. Terenin 23 January 2020 23: 55 New
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      Quote: PO-tzan
      For many decades, they have been proving to us that our history connected with the Great Patriotic War is just a well-written play.


      Partially open archives contribute to this, which must either be completely closed or completely declassified. So, let’s say they poke me in the face with the report of the Chief Military Prosecutor N. Afanasyev “On 28 Panfilovites” dated May 10, 1948 as a result of the investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office, which is kept in the fund of the USSR Prosecutor’s Office (GA RF. F. R-8131), which says that the story of 28 Panfilov’s is not true. What do you propose to cover with?


      That you pokes us nonsense. Where did you see in this scan that the story of 28 Panfilov’s is not true? It says only about Dobrobabin ... as a traitor to the Motherland ...
      1. would 30 January 2020 03: 59 New
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        Where did you see in this scan that the story of 28 Panfilov’s is not true? It says only about Dobrobabin ... as a traitor to the Motherland ...


        And this is on another page of the document, the third

        1. Terenin 30 January 2020 11: 07 New
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          Firstly, this once again confirms that, for various reasons and due to various circumstances, different crooks "clung to the exploit of Panfilov’s ..."
          Secondly, this is not a material of verification (investigation), but a report to Zhdanov (member of the Politburo).
          It is necessary to look at the request of the command of the Western Front ... for awarding
    7. New Year day 24 January 2020 00: 15 New
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      Quote: PO-tzan
      the story of 28 Panfilov’s is not true. What do you propose to cover with?

      Yes, nothing! The main enemy near Moscow was stopped thanks to thousands of Panfilov’s troops and this cannot be covered up with anything. Famous and unknown war heroes, living and dead, they all fought for us and it doesn’t matter at all whether he is Panfilov’s or not
      1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 10 New
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        Quote: Silvestr
        Famous and unknown war heroes, living and dead, they all fought for us and it doesn’t matter at all whether he is Panfilov’s or not

        You see what the problem is. Strength, as one movie director said, is in truth. Until you figure out the lies in your own rear, it’s unreasonable to go to the information war. That is, you can walk, but it will turn out like now.
        1. Terenin 24 January 2020 12: 06 New
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          Quote: Octopus
          You see what the problem is.

          Our people are a winner! We have no problems.
          Quote: Octopus
          Strength, as one movie director said, is in truth.

          Yes, power is in truth. Didn’t you know that before watching the movie? And, if our hero is a stock-guard, then your western movie heroes are war criminals against humanity.
          Quote: Octopus
          Until you figure out the lies in your own rear, it’s unreasonable to go to the information war. That is, you can walk, but it will turn out like now.

          If we didn’t start to understand, you wouldn’t be here with “tips and tricks”
    8. would 29 January 2020 08: 42 New
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      What do you propose to cover with?


      Why cover the feat of an entire division? The division fought heroically, the soldiers died, but tried to contain the blow of the Nazis. This is all recorded in documents that have long been discovered and studied, such data, in particular, is presented on the subsequent pages of the document you published.

      The fact that some journalist from this feat then created an absolutely unrealistic story about how 28 soldiers stopped the breakthrough of 54 (!!!) tanks (those who understand they can estimate how much infantry they should have supported) does not cancel this. Although he certainly contributed to the fact that the real feat was not widely known, almost all the names of the true heroes were not even mentioned, and his actions were presented by the enemies as proof of the massive falsification of history in the USSR and Russia. And the latter are not to blame for the Heroes who died on that land, but quite specific actions of the khe-khe of various lovers of Mannerheim and others.
  • Keyser soze 23 January 2020 16: 46 New
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    I sometimes communicate with citizens of these countries. It is hard to believe, but even those who once studied in Soviet schools, today the vast majority believe precisely their historians.


    And why is it difficult to believe that the Russians believe Russian historians, the Poles - Polish historians, the French - French, etc., etc.

    I know ours, Bulgarian textbooks, and I don’t see any distortions in them - yes they were on the side of Hitler, yes they took their territories, yes, then Uncle Stalin cut the country as hell - that's all, a matter of life. There is nothing to regret or wish to play. It is important today how clean the streets are, how normal people live, education / medicine is good and the state is normal.
    1. Old Michael 23 January 2020 17: 06 New
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      There is nothing to regret or wish to play. It is important today how clean the streets are, how normal people live, education / medicine is good and the state is normal.

      Basically - I agree.
      The important thing is that historical truth cannot be good or bad. She must be true! And it should BE, and not be replaced by Wishlist / speculation / lies.
      1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 43 New
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        Quote: OldMichael
        The important thing is that historical truth cannot be good or bad. She must be true! And it should BE, and not be replaced by Wishlist / speculation / lies

        The truth here is the only one, if it, our Victory and our Truth were not, as the West wants, now it would not be Europe but the Third Reich.
      2. Keyser soze 24 January 2020 09: 00 New
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        The important thing is that historical truth cannot be good or bad. She must be true!


        This is true. But it’s to the benefit of the people who write it - if the Poles themselves trick their heads with fables, it won’t do them any good, in the first place. Lying to children in schools will ruin their own generation and future.
    2. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 31 New
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      and how much they spoiled the little brothers ... laughing
  • GKS 2111 23 January 2020 16: 54 New
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    There must be a fight for the memory of the war so that we no longer have a kolsurengoy

    As long as we remember the truth about that war, while we see the mass graves of soldiers of that war, as long as there are memorials of concentration camps, while there are documents of that era, we exist.
    1. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 47 New
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      I don’t understand why he and his parents were not deprived of citizenship and were not expelled from the country? Let them live in beloved Germany.
  • sagitch 23 January 2020 16: 54 New
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    It was not worth Stalin to debunk. Khrushchev made a big mistake.
    1. Svarog 23 January 2020 16: 58 New
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      Quote: sagitch
      It was not worth Stalin to debunk. Khrushchev made a big mistake.

      Rather, Khrushchev is the mistake of Stalin .. That's who should have 9 timing belts. catch lead ..
    2. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 27 New
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      Quote: sagitch
      Khrushchev made a big mistake.

      If it was only a mistake !!!
      1. Reptiloid 23 January 2020 21: 54 New
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        First, he, Khrushchev, did it consciously in his own interests, and did not accidentally make a mistake.
        Secondly, these are crimes, e, and not a mistake, if we recall what anti-Stalinist, anti-Soviet actions began in the countries of Eastern Europe, relations with China also deteriorated, and also the closure of projects launched under Stalin.
    3. Gardamir 23 January 2020 19: 05 New
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      Khrushchev made a big mistake
      He just hid behind Stalin
    4. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 48 New
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      And no one has "debunked" him ... Shit does not stick to this name. But the khrushch come and go.
  • knn54 23 January 2020 16: 56 New
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    "Who owns the present, that owns the past. Who owns the past, that owns the future" -
    The words of D Orwell (1948) became an instruction for pseudo-historians
  • Old Horseradish 23 January 2020 16: 57 New
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    Another nonsense. Front-line soldiers for what gave their lives? To their grandchildren become homeless? That there was a civil war between fraternal peoples? To make the Chinese people feel at home in Siberia and the Far East? Can eyes be better opened and look at reality?
    1. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 50 New
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      Yes, close it already ... or something. Who works, and does not whine here, then all the rules.
  • Pivot 23 January 2020 17: 01 New
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    Allan Dulles’s plan is slowly coming to fruition. If in every family parents instead of tablets and phones talk with children and talk about the past, our country will stand for a thousand years, and if we are degrading to the state of bloggers, then the collapse of the country is inevitable.
  • tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 02 New
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    For many decades, they have been proving to us that our history connected with the Great Patriotic War is just a well-written play. That, in fact, everything was exactly the opposite. And, worst of all, many people have appeared among us who agree with this.
    And if you do not start patriotic work, then in 50 years we will be the unleashing of the war, and the winners, and the different countries supporting Hitler, and the artificially created limitrophs will be the winners.
    1. Octopus 23 January 2020 21: 51 New
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      Quote: tihonmarine
      then in 50 years we will be unleashed a war

      What do you. What 50 years.
      Responsibility including the USSR for the beginning of WWII is already official position of the European Parliament.
      1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 23: 30 New
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        Quote: Octopus
        Responsibility including the USSR for the start of WWII is already the official position of the European Parliament.
        We will have it in 50 years if there is no patriotic work.
  • solzh 23 January 2020 17: 03 New
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    In my opinion, today we are starting a “hybrid war” for the memory of our fathers and grandfathers.

    She is already going and has been going for a long time.
    No matter how much the jackal Tabaki shouted that he was brave and strong, he was always just a jackal. He does not become a tiger or a man.

    But there are those who believe.
    We need to make films, real films about the war, and not the heresy that has been advertised and released for the last 30 years, to show old films about the war. You need to write articles and books, republish books that were previously released. Disclose secret documents that can already be published.
    1. tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 52 New
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      Quote: solzh
      You need to write articles and books, republish books that were previously released.

      There are many very good books now, memoirs of front-line soldiers, memoirs (but they need to be sifted). Who did not read the manuscript "Vanka company" guard captain Shumilina A. I. read the war there without decoration, heroism. He fought where I lived, in those villages and cities. I saw what remained after the war, there were almost no villages.
      1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 18: 31 New
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        My personal opinion, I do not pretend to anything: I would not like to fight, under the leadership of such a "father-commander" as Vanka - the company man. Who stared blankly at his fighters being robbed. And there are really a lot of good books: from analytics to memoirs. Drabkin did a great deal in order to convey to the people the trench truth with his cycle of memoirs of the front-line soldiers "I fought ..."
  • balunn 23 January 2020 17: 04 New
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    The history began to be rewritten by those figures who crawled out into power with the collapse of the Union. It was then that those who defamed the USSR and our history began to return to Russia. With their help, Solzhenitsyn, Shalamov, and other inmates are now studying at school for some reason.
    1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 17: 14 New
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      Shalamov can and should be read. He wrote a bitter, but truth, in contrast to the business man Solzhenitsyn. By the way, Shalamov did not give Solzhenitsyn a hand.
    2. Old Michael 23 January 2020 17: 17 New
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      The history began to be rewritten by those figures who crawled out into power with the collapse of the Union.

      It seems that before. If we talk about the history of the USSR, then starting with Khrushchev. Well, about the post-coastal years, and so many people remember what kind of literature went into print.
    3. Old Michael 23 January 2020 17: 20 New
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      PS “Dagger” and “Bronze bird” were read in vain by at least two generations of boys. I still do not understand how the Children of Arbat were welded in the same head.
      1. GenNick 23 January 2020 20: 42 New
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        Jews, however ...
  • novobranets 23 January 2020 17: 07 New
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    “If we had not won, we would have been drinking Bavarian beer now, and not the bourd that we call beer” ...
    I already heard this phrase, it drives me into a wild rage. This is just how much you need to be a brainless moron (forgive me moderators) and a slave of your own belly to carry such nonsense. Do these creatures really not understand that if we had not won, then they would have worked as slaves in the pigsty of some sort of burgher, for a bowl of balanda a day, and would have lived there, in the pigsty. Instead of a pension, a pipe would literally fly out, and the ashes would go to fertilize the fields of the same burgher. Potential traitors. They wanted Bavarian beer, but they need to lean against the wall, without any pity.
    1. Gardamir 23 January 2020 19: 11 New
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      a slave to his own belly,
      But aren’t the same people enjoying cars in the yards now?
      1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 20: 30 New
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        The elderberry garden, and the uncle in Kiev. And why should we, winners, live worse than the defeated? Even the number of cars in the yards and the assortment of varieties of sausages in the store.
        1. Gardamir 23 January 2020 22: 23 New
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          we are winners
          What are you winners? Winners almost all died. And they fought for their homeland, for honor and conscience, and including that their descendants lived happily and the house was full.
          1. New Year day 24 January 2020 00: 29 New
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            Quote: Gardamir
            What are you winners?


            do not preserve the memory of grandfathers - worthless heirs of the winners. But how many families in the country understand this issue?
    2. Alf
      Alf 23 January 2020 21: 46 New
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      Quote: novobranets
      Do these creatures really not understand that if we had not won, then they would have worked as slaves in the pigsty of some sort of burgher, for a bowl of balanda a day, and would have lived there, in the pigsty.

      Not at all. Just the Nazis would always need those who would stand on the machine-gun towers. And "these" would stand.
      1. novobranets 24 January 2020 12: 06 New
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        Quote: Alf
        Just the Nazis would always need those who would stand on the machine-gun towers. And "these" would stand.

        And they will stand up, if something happens.
  • BAI
    BAI 23 January 2020 17: 08 New
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    You can’t trust the TV, but you can blogger.

    This is the effect of a boy shouting "Wolf!". Losing confidence is easy; restoring is difficult. If truthful information immediately came from the TV, there would be no questions.
  • pmkemcity 23 January 2020 17: 13 New
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    ... gamers would shoot a mountain ... well, it would turn out that we were great. and they are scoundrels.
  • Fedorovich 23 January 2020 17: 23 New
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    Generally speaking, we made a fundamental mistake. We had to regularly remind all these gay Slavs about their art and hint that you will behave badly, allow all sorts of "co-identities" there - we will remember this to everyone who needs ...
  • prior 23 January 2020 17: 29 New
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    While those who fled to the West from our kick felt the taste of that kick, they were silent.
    Now the pain is gone. And there was talk ....
    You don’t have to talk, you can’t convince them and calm them down by talking.
    And repeat the lesson, give another kick to those who have forgotten the "taste". Yes, so that they could not sit.
    Being determines consciousness.
    "Long live our Soviet court, the fairest court in the world!"
    1. ANB
      ANB 23 January 2020 18: 40 New
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      БиThis determines consciousness. :)
  • tihonmarine 23 January 2020 17: 33 New
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    My grandfather had 5 brothers - two returned, of their 8 sons returned three, my father returned alive, and two of his brothers did not return. Of the 16, six returned. This cannot be forgotten, not forgiven. I say this to my children and grandchildren that their grandfathers won.
    1. Octopus 23 January 2020 21: 58 New
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      Quote: tihonmarine
      Of the 16, six returned. This cannot be forgotten, not forgiven. I’m talking about this to my children and grandchildren,

      You see, there’s something else.

      Russians will never be able to pay that price again. Can not repeat.
      1. cradle 24 January 2020 05: 57 New
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        and no one offers to fill up with meat ... but we can break into them by the most
  • Amateur 23 January 2020 17: 34 New
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    Turn on the Zvezda TV channel, which seems to belong to the Russian Defense Ministry. And watch any modern film about the Second World War. In front are drunk fascists with machine guns, behind are drunk NKVD officers with machine guns, and in the middle are criminals with one rifle for three and with fragments of sticks from the rest. To the criminals, in order not to die of hunger, they first have to "dunk the NKVD officers", then the Nazis, who have both schnapps and sausage. And the level of nonsense in the scripts exceeds even Hollywood. And we begin - Poles, Balts, non-brothers, etc. You need to start with yourself. Then the rest will be thoughtful.
    1. victor50 23 January 2020 18: 20 New
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      Quote: Amateur
      In front are drunk fascists with machine guns, behind are drunk NKVD officers with machine guns, and in the middle are criminals with one rifle for three and with fragments of sticks from the rest. To the criminals, in order not to die of hunger, they first have to "dunk the NKVD officers", then the Nazis, who have both schnapps and sausage. And the level of nonsense in the scripts exceeds even Hollywood.

      It is not clear why they slammed the minus for you? To the one who did this - where is the truth?
      1. Amateur 23 January 2020 18: 25 New
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        It is not clear why they slammed the minus for you? To the one who did this - where is the truth?

        There is a sin. Sometimes instead of criminals, the new wife of A. Pimanova, Olga Pogodina, began to appear. And the rest is the same.
  • maden.usmanow 23 January 2020 17: 37 New
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    The truth about collaboration, about Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Frenchmen, with all their might concealed the beloved author of the Union.
    This Union drove everyone into the head that only the Germans attacked, it was the Union. And do not forget about it. The NKVD archives are still classified.
    Show the truth. Well show. Well, hide it in the archives.
  • Ggc1 23 January 2020 17: 38 New
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    To fight for memory - you need to remove secrecy from the archives, and not give out propaganda for the truth!
    It is ridiculous when the war ended 75 years ago, and Putin extended the secrecy regime for data on the Great Patriotic War until 2040, and the NKVD archives are classified by decree of Vladimir Putin until 2050!
    So what truth do you have to fight for? For the "truth" about 28 Panfilov’s? Or for the truth about the "blockade" of Leningrad?
    To fight for memory - you need to declassify this very memory, open access to the archives of the Great Patriotic War!
    1. Kastorkin 23 January 2020 18: 26 New
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      Quote: GGC1
      To fight for memory - you need to remove secrecy from the archives, and not give out propaganda for the truth!

      Well, I remember in the 80-90s after the rallies, the "democrats" were usually eager to smash the KGB archives ..))) Why do you think?
      Quote: GGC1
      It is ridiculous when the war ended 75 years ago, and Putin extended the secrecy regime for data on the Great Patriotic War until 2040, and the NKVD archives are classified by decree of Vladimir Putin until 2050!

      And he’s doing it right .. Now the moment of truth has come and a small part of the archives has been opened and Poland immediately shut up, etc.
      Quote: GGC1
      To fight for memory - you need to declassify this very memory, open access to the archives of the Great Patriotic War!

      You see, infa is also a weapon, and even cooler .. And to spread everything, this can be brought to the third world ....
      And the KGB archives managed to be brought to Moscow in all the "union" republics and CMEA countries .. So they left a trifle .. Although the Lubyanka was later attempted to storm too .. Even Felix was dumped)))
      1. victor50 23 January 2020 21: 42 New
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        Quote: Kastorkin
        And he’s doing it right .. Now the moment of truth has come and a small part of the archives has been opened and Poland immediately shut up, etc.

        I did not notice this. Rather, the opposite. But if you approach wisely, then you should agree with you, no matter how you would like to demand that the archives be opened completely. In previous years, they lied so much (this also applies in part to the Soviet period) that by opening archives such a bomb can be detonated. And for some - it’s right underneath. Well, and if you are to discover the whole truth, then the whole world. And then our revelation is once again used against us. Alas, we live in such a world! But still I really want to have less lies. Well, at least from our side! It is pointless to address the others with such a wish. The truth is also a weapon! Those who are closer and more to their ideology will introduce the world order (state system, finally), and so will the future. So it seems to me.
      2. Octopus 23 January 2020 22: 03 New
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        Quote: Kastorkin
        I remember in the 80-90s after the rallies, the "democrats" were usually eager to smash the KGB archives ..))) Why do you think?

        Half of the Democrats are GB snitches?
        Quote: Kastorkin
        Poland shut up right away

        Uh ... no.
        Quote: Kastorkin
        Although Lubyanka then an attempt to storm, too, was

        Yes. Yakovlev saved.
        Quote: Kastorkin
        And rightly so.

        So fight for the wink and crafts of the department of Epishev. Russophobes will be able to go much further with such right-wingers than could be imagined in the terrible 90s.
    2. novobranets 23 January 2020 19: 27 New
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      Quote: GGC1
      To fight for memory - you need to declassify this very memory, open access to the archives of the Great Patriotic War!

      Information is also a kind of weapon. And to spread all the trump cards at once is not reasonable. And there are archives with the signature "keep forever", and before reading which it is better to shoot yourself.
  • nikvic46 23 January 2020 17: 47 New
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    Somehow it turned out that there was not a single conversation about the unnecessaryness of the Victory. There were conversations with those called "tear off and throw it away." We just grew up in the USSR, and we knew perfectly well the words "Our cause is right, the enemy will be defeated."
  • talib 23 January 2020 17: 48 New
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    The screaming of one’s own story did not begin today or yesterday. There were magazines "Spark", there was "Komsomolskaya Pravda" and other yellowed publications. Which, with the rise to power of Gorbachev, began to sophisticatedly slander both Heroes and Events related to the Patriotic War. The fallen could no longer answer to the alkalis, and the living often did not give such an opportunity. And in the article, you essentially continue to pour dirt. The methods are the same. Only earlier in the trend did the “writers” of the Pravodorubov have “evil specialists,” “not far-off commissars,” and now let’s go through the nationalities ?! And "those" fought anyhow, like "these" were not represented in that proportion .... Here I am Ukrainian by passport and by blood. In spirit and belief I am RUSSIAN, I am Odessa. One grandfather and his two brothers are lying near Kharkov, Tiraspol and near Brno. Another - from the first day to Prague! Probably for your Grandfather-partisan, how are they? And who? Also on the "mov" could speak ...
    My grandmother, who survived the occupation in the Chernihiv region (with my uncle my father and uncle), also spoke about the "partisans". But I will NEVER allow myself or my children and grandchildren to doubt the feat of the people's avengers Kovpak, Zaslonov, Saburov.
  • Doctor 23 January 2020 17: 57 New
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    The problem is that history (like life in general) is neither black nor white. She is gray. That is, everyone.
    The USSR freed Poland from German Nazism. But before that, the USSR and Germany shared this same Poland. Stalin was a great statesman. But at the same time he was a tyrant.
    It was both.
    And attempts to look white and fluffy end with the fact that then any negative bulges ten times, as during the perestroika.
  • Kastorkin 23 January 2020 18: 16 New
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    As one WWII veteran told his grandson when they were standing at the Monument to the Unknown Soldier .. "Forget the granddaughter of this war, wait even more bloody .."
    And after all, everything goes to this .. so that the Author of rights needs to fight for the memory of our fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, and even with weapons if they don’t understand otherwise.
    Millions of fallen soldiers are watching us and expect justice and steadfastness from us in the fight .. Oh mother Russia.!
  • Andrzej k 23 January 2020 18: 25 New
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    To think that just a country with a noble, without tears, shameful history is naivety. This applies to the USSR, and Poland, and the UK, and Germany, and the United States, and all the rest.

    The USSR defeated Nazi Germany - he made a decisive contribution - no doubt. He defeated Germany and freed Poland or the Baltic states from nazism. It is a fact.

    Many Soviet soldiers were fallen - not really thinking about politics, but about their homeland and the fight against the enemy. Their cemeteries are also located in Poland - and these cemeteries are respected - in our youth, we went from school to the cemetery to clean those graves (I’m in the town of Rzepin, for example,
    where even today the cemetery exists and is being watched):



    . Now the world has changed, the Polish authorities (in my opinion, in many places mistakenly) remove monuments in honor of the Soviet army - but they do not clean cemeteries - the fallen soldiers deserve memory and peaceful rest !!!

    However, from other countries, such as Poland, liberation from Nazism, unfortunately, is not synonymous with liberation as such. We fell under the authority of the USSR, even if we were formally an independent state. This is also a fact.

    but It is a pity that my authorities forget that the period 1945-1989, despite the absence of de facto sovereignty, meant for most Poles a period of peace and restoration of the state.


    On the other hand, the hostile actions of the USSR before and during the war against my state and nation. This is also a fact. Bad fact.
    And this is also part of the truth, and not a reduction or denial of the contribution of the USSR to the victory over Nazism.
    1. talib 23 January 2020 18: 57 New
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      You are very mistaken. It is even demolished monuments in cemeteries. I often travel through Boleslawiec. At the entrance of an old cemetery. (Where the heart of M.I. Kutuzov was buried). And at the end of the Second World War, the soldiers of the 1st Ukrainian Front
      So .... ONLY the front, probably 1/20 part of the memorial cemetery, remained untouched and even restored. And all that is deeper - ruthlessly destroyed. Including beautiful paths with decorative trees and bushes. And a huge monument deep in the cemetery. And the burials inside the cemetery of our Warriors of 1945 and 1813 are just wasteland ... From time to time I go to this cemetery. Since the mid 90s.
      And to the Czechs there are questions about the graves and attitudes towards them.
      1. Andrzej k 23 January 2020 19: 09 New
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        It’s sad if it’s real, and I’m ashamed.

        It’s strange because in the photos from 2018 on Google Maps this cemetery does not look empty
        https://www.google.pl/maps/place/Cmentarz+Mauzoleum+%C5%BBo%C5%82nierzy+Sowieckich/@51.2576376,15.5130572,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNjTsIBiHbWfvkhAKeBKzQUvB3BdTbLIh3jlsgC!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNjTsIBiHbWfvkhAKeBKzQUvB3BdTbLIh3jlsgC%3Dw128-h86-k-no!7i2048!8i1371!4m5!3m4!1s0x470f348eb330a51f:0xa009cf3d187e131b!8m2!3d51.2576376!4d15.5130571

        Well, perhaps the current government at such a fast pace shows bestiality and stupidity :-(


        An example of other well-kept cemeteries was also written here.
        https://topwar.ru/166432-esche-raz-o-pamjati.html

        I believe that all cemeteries should be respected and taken care of!
    2. Amateur 23 January 2020 19: 12 New
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      We fell under the authority of the USSR, even if we were formally an independent state. This is also a fact.

      Excuse me Dear for a few questions, if you think that Poland was under the power of the USSR.
      1. Someone once from the USSR prohibited the Polish language, the Catholic faith, or Polish churches from the Poles?
      2. Someone once from the USSR "plundered" Polish industry, forced Polish shipyards to build ships for the USSR for free?
      3. Who, with his orders and machines, technical documentation, construction of factories, actually restored the Polish industry, destroyed during the 2 MV.
      4. Who transferred to Poland territories that it never owned and which were torn away from Germany.
      5. Who carried out the post-war "purges" - Take, Gomulka, Tsirankevich, Gerek. So it was yours, domestic Polish "showdowns". But at the same time, all your leaders always pointed a finger at Moscow.
      So what was the "fault" of Moscow?
      1. Andrzej k 23 January 2020 19: 27 New
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        Most of the equipment and machinery was removed from the Polish zone.
        at the end and immediately after the war. First example from the shore: a shipyard crane from Gdansk was taken to the USSR after the war:
        http://ibedeker.pl/obiekty/stoczniowe-dzwigi-i-ich-smutna-historia/
        - and you can multiply examples by thousands - from each plant from each plant!

        Poland in those years was often ruled by "Soviet people", giving back to the USSR - and to say that Poland decided about herself, and not by order from Moscow, is forgiven. The Red Army monitored this at bases in our area

        The Polish People’s Republic built ships and ships for the USSR for useless “convertible rubles”, we had to “donate” a huge number of tanks to “fraternal nations” in the name of the struggle for socialism, etc.


        Ad. 4 - not one of the USSR, but allies during the Potsdam Conference.



        But what does all this change?

        Already was and will not change.

        On the other hand, hostility based only on a different interpretation of the same events will certainly not help us or you.

        We must do everything to create a better world for children and grandchildren, and not just look back (this does not mean that history and the dead should be forgotten!)
        1. Amateur 23 January 2020 19: 33 New
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          First example from the coast: shipyard crane from Gdansk was exported to the USSR after the war

          Since when did the German city of Danzig, from which the crane you mentioned was removed as trophies, become Polish?
          We are not politicians. And let's not try to "rub the glasses" to each other.
          And you are absolutely right:
          We must do everything to create a better world for children and grandchildren, and not just look back (this does not mean that history and the dead should be forgotten!)
          1. Andrzej k 23 January 2020 19: 38 New
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            I wrote for a reason:
            from the Polish zone


            did not have to wait long for trouble. Five days after the end of the Potsdam Conference, the Polish delegation went to Moscow, headed by Boleslav Bierut. The ambiguous language of the Potsdam resolutions was to be translated into specific bilateral agreements. Indeed, in addition to reparations from the Soviet occupation zone, as mentioned above, Russians also had a right to 25 percent. industrial equipment from the western occupation zones (of which 15% were to be transferred to the USSR in exchange for the supply of food and other products). So there was a lot to look for. Unfortunately, this was also understood by comrade Jozef Stalin, who forced Poland to combine the issue of reparations with coal supplies from Poland to the USSR. As a result, in an agreement on compensation for damage caused by the German occupation, signed on August 16, 1945, Poland made an obligation - starting in 1946 - to supply the Soviet Union with coal at a special contract price. In the first year of supply, it was supposed to be 8 million tons, in the next four years - 13 million, and in subsequent years - 12 million tons. This special price was set in a secret report and averaged $ 1,22. per ton less than 10 percent. market price and does not even cover the costs of extraction and transportation.

            In an agreement with the USSR, he refused "any claims to German property throughout Poland, including the part of Germany that goes to Poland". Stalin did not have much resistance to agree on such a decision. In the end, it was decided at the Potsdam Conference that the pre-war German lands "would be under the control of the Polish state and for this purpose should not be considered as part of the Soviet occupation zone in Germany." Therefore, Stalin refused claims for German property, to which he had no rights in accordance with the agreement, which he signed two weeks ago. In return, the USSR was supposed to receive almost free of charge a huge amount of Polish coal. It is worth adding that the Red Army, gradually occupying Polish and then German territories, controlled this property for several months. She had enough time to bring more valuable plants and equipment to the USSR, and she willingly used this time.


            https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/historia/1616213,1,jak-wygladalo-przekazywanie-reparacji-wojennych-przez-niemcy.read
        2. ccsr 23 January 2020 20: 41 New
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          Quote: Andrzej K
          . First example from the shore: a shipyard crane from Gdansk was taken to the USSR after the war:

          For some reason, you “forgot” that the Germans included it in the Reich, and Gdansk became part of East Prussia as the city of Danzig. That is why, according to the results of World War II, it was he, and not Warsaw, for example, who were determined to receive indemnities, including equipment that belonged to GERMAN owners.
          1. Andrzej k 23 January 2020 20: 43 New
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            again :
            In an agreement with the USSR, he refused "any claims to German property throughout Poland, including the part of Germany that goes to Poland". Stalin did not have much resistance to agree on such a decision. In the end, it was decided at the Potsdam Conference that the pre-war German lands "would be under the control of the Polish state and for this purpose should not be considered as part of the Soviet occupation zone in Germany." Therefore, Stalin refused claims for German property, to which he had no rights in accordance with the agreement, which he signed two weeks ago.
            1. ccsr 23 January 2020 21: 02 New
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              Quote: Andrzej K
              In an agreement with the USSR, he refused "any claims to German property throughout Poland, including the part of Germany that goes to Poland."

              And you better imagine the text of the agreement, not someone else’s comments.
              Quote: Andrzej K
              Therefore, Stalin refused claims for German property, to which he had no rights in accordance with the agreement, which he signed two weeks ago.

              This is your interpretation, but in fact all property that belonged to military factories, Wehrmacht, or SS units in Poland, including naval bases, was confiscated. What you write about only concerned the property of civic organizations and departments of Germany.
              1. Andrzej k 23 January 2020 22: 46 New
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                Tomorrow, when I'm at work, I will find the text of the document and quote it

                [
                The Red Army is more dangerous than the retreating Germans, you never know what else will be useful to them. Even rails and rail safety devices disappear - reported May 30, 1945, in the head of the Kozelsky district in the Opole region. At the end of the war and immediately after its end, the Soviets removed the equipment of more than a thousand factories from German territories provided to Poland. They were dishonest in looting property from areas of the former Second Polish Republic.
                The headman Kozle, Franciszek Chupka, calculated the property that fell to the Soviets: 19 tractors, 1755 horse-drawn wagons, 720 plows, 100 threshers, 317 seeders, 175 forage harvesters, 331 grain mill, 102 reapers, 85 treadmills and 712 other machines. And also: 1970 horses, 84 foals, 5087 cows, 548 calves, 623 goats, 3758 pigs, 2425 geese, 1904 ducks, 5295 turkeys, 2756 hens and 385 tons of hay.


                In your opinion, this is:
                in fact, all property that belonged to military factories, the Wehrmacht, or SS units on the territory of Poland, including naval bases, was confiscated. What you write about only property of German civil organizations and departments
                1. cradle 24 January 2020 06: 27 New
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                  But I'm sure that they are evil Red Army soldiers, and not the Poles themselves, to the noise? Me not. Official investigation materials? Or one elder wrote ... so I’ll write such losses for the 17th century, you’re tired of paying.
                2. ccsr 24 January 2020 11: 09 New
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                  Quote: Andrzej K
                  Even rails and safety devices on railways disappear - reported May 30, 1945, in the head of the Kozelsky district in the Opole region.

                  Again, arrogant lies - when the troops advance, any material that appears in the combat zone is requisitioned, and this is the law of war. It was necessary for the Poles not to go under the Wehrmacht in 1939, but to fight as our ancestors fought near Stalingrad, then the Red Army might not have entered Poland.


                  Quote: Andrzej K
                  At the end of the war and immediately after its end, the Soviets removed the equipment of more than a thousand factories from German territories provided to Poland.

                  A million Poles voluntarily fought in the Wehrmacht against the USSR, so with what statite Stalin was obliged to take care of those who killed our soldiers. Here is evidence of how the Poles killed our soldiers:

                  Quote: Andrzej K
                  Tips exported equipment to more than a thousand factories from German territories, provided to Poland.

                  With what joy is it to give the Pole what they did not belong to before the war?
                  1. cradle 25 January 2020 09: 54 New
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                    it’s just that Anjuha is trying to give us a half-truth here, what if he’s dropping it? Nah ... anjuha, with this half-truth of yours you can blame by. Remember the Pole, there’s a Russian threaded bolt for every sly psheck ass. wassat And your lies will return to you as a boomerang, and more than once. You just need to live the truth ...
                  2. Octopus 25 January 2020 10: 26 New
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                    Quote: ccsr
                    A million Poles voluntarily fought in the Wehrmacht against the USSR

                    Million Poles in Wehrmacht? What kind of liberal Keitel was, he wasn’t expecting from anyone.
                    1. ccsr 25 January 2020 11: 38 New
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                      Quote: Octopus
                      Million Poles in the Wehrmacht? What kind of liberal Keitel was, he wasn’t expecting from anyone.

                      Do not attach importance to the reservation, which does not contradict the truth - I meant all the Poles who helped the Germans in the war with the USSR both in the ranks of the Wehrmacht and in auxiliary structures.
                      SCAN N201 to 6.00 14.7.43 STAFF OF THE VORONEZH FRONT
                      .... Prisoners 1/678 pp 332pd captured 12.7 in the RAKOVO area showed: on July 4 the division received a task from the command of the Southern Group of Forces on the eastern front - to advance as part of the BELGOROD group on KURSK. On the left 332 pd, 255 pd operates, on the right TD SS Great Germany. The national composition is 332 pd: 40% are Poles, 10% are Czechs, and the rest are Germans. The division is commanded by Colonel TIMM, which is part of 52 ak 5 armies. Seized documents of those killed in the area of ​​sowing. NOVOSELOVKA confirms the action in this area of ​​11 td (15 tp) and in the area of ​​high. 220,6 (east. RED OCTOBER) - TD SS "A.GITLER" (2 mp).

                      RCHA, f.71, op.25, d.18802s, l. 51-54.
                      1. Octopus 25 January 2020 12: 07 New
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                        And why on earth do you bring me the nonsense of Soviet intelligence as a source in the Wehrmacht? Who allowed to accept non-Aryans to the Wehrmacht instead of the SS? Which document?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I meant all the Poles who helped the Germans in the war with the USSR, both in the ranks of the Wehrmacht and in auxiliary structures.

                        In supporting structures sort of Todt organization, Russians served no less. Everyone wants to live, even with such power. I, unlike you, are not morally flawless enough to condemn anyone for this.
                      2. ccsr 25 January 2020 18: 04 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        And why on earth do you bring me the nonsense of Soviet intelligence as a source in the Wehrmacht?

                        This "nonsense", as you deigned, is composed by people who were engaged in prisoners and left their signatures on documents that are stored in archives. Why then can not I consider what you write, the nonsense of an unknown author, hiding under a nickname, and whose thoughts it is unlikely that anyone will study in a month?
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Who allowed to accept non-Aryans to the Wehrmacht instead of the SS? Which document?

                        I’m unlikely to search for this document, but the fact that foreigners served in the Wehrmacht, and not just in the SS, is an obvious fact:
                        There were very few foreign divisions in the Wehrmacht. The first Croatian divisions appeared, there were as many as three, 369th, 373rd and 392nd infantry. Formed in the years 1942-1943, they acted in the Balkans against the Yugoslav partisans. Only one Croatian regiment, defeated at Stalingrad, fought on the Eastern Front.

                        Kirill Shishkin
                        Source: Foreign divisions of the Wehrmacht and the SS: who fought for Hitler
                        © Russian Seven russian7.ru
                      3. Octopus 25 January 2020 18: 48 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        Source: Foreign divisions of the Wehrmacht and the SS

                        There it is written.
                        The involvement of foreigners in the German army was determined by two factors. On the one hand, the level of training of representatives of other countries, which was significantly inferior to the Germans. On the other hand, the racial policies of the Third Reich, according to which most peoples belonged to the lower race.

                        The armed forces of the Third Reich, in addition to the army itself, also included SS troops. From the point of view of the topic under discussion, this is important, since the foreign parts and formations of the Wehrmacht and the SS are often confused. There were very few foreign divisions in the Wehrmacht. The first Croatian divisions appeared, there were as many as three, 369th, 373rd and 392nd infantry. Formed in the years 1942-1943, they acted in the Balkans against the Yugoslav partisans. Only one Croatian regiment fought on the Eastern Frontdefeated near Stalingrad. Most of all there were units and formations from Soviet citizens. First of all, these are two Cossack cavalry divisions (1st and 2nd), formed from Don Cossacks. They were brought into the 15th cavalry corps and acted in the Balkans against the partisans. Wehrmacht command did not trust them with more serious tasks. In the fall of 1944, the corps was formally reassigned to the SS, although there were no Cossacks on the list of SS divisions. Also in the Wehrmacht there were two divisions: the 600th and 650th infantry, which were the very Russian Liberation Army (ROA) of Vlasov. Moreover, the second division existed only on paper. The most interesting composition was the 162nd Infantry Division. It was composed of Soviet prisoners and defectors, representatives of the Turkic-speaking peoples: Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Turkmens, Kyrgyz. Used by the Germans in the Balkans.

                        You
                        Quote: ccsr
                        A million Poles voluntarily fought in the Wehrmacht against the USSR

                        70 Polish SS divisions. Where are they?
                      4. ccsr 26 January 2020 10: 39 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        70 Polish SS divisions. Where are they?

                        We also did not have Georgian, Ukrainian or Azerbaijani divisions, but they fought as part of any division of the Red Army. So the question is not whether the division consisted of Poles alone, but how many Poles helped Volunteer the Germans to destroy our citizens. so that your "refinement" and a damn egg are not worth it at such a scale of war. By the way, I did not claim that the Wehrmacht had purely Polish divisions.
                      5. Octopus 26 January 2020 11: 36 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        We also did not have Georgian, Ukrainian or Azerbaijani divisions, but they fought as part of any division of the Red Army.

                        You are jumping. When Russophobes kicked our Masha with her Glavpurovsky version of history, they will say that Europe was liberated from fascism by three Belarusian fronts (Belarus is an independent state, the founder of the UN, the head of state is Nikifor Yakovlevich Natalevich, the people's commissar Kuzma Venediktovich Kiselev) and 4 Ukrainian fronts ( Ukraine is an independent state, the founder of the UN, the head of state is Mikhail Sergeyevich Grechukha, the People’s Commissar is Dmitry Zakharovich Manuilsky), and the Russians followed them in the rear of Abakumov and Beria, raped Germans, took trophies, and repaired the very crimes of the communist regimes about which fuss. True, there will be a problem with Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, but it is quite possible to get out.

                        (offtopic. For Germans, it was so. According to most of the evidence, there was discipline in the front-line units, otherwise there was no way in the war, so they behaved relatively well with the civilians, but the rear ... did not limit itself to anything).
                        Quote: ccsr
                        By the way, I did not claim that the Wehrmacht had purely Polish divisions.

                        Ugums.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        A million Poles voluntarily fought in the Wehrmacht against the USSR

                        The involvement of foreigners in the German army was determined by two factors. On the one hand, the level of training of representatives of other countries, which was significantly inferior to the Germans. On the other hand, The Third Reich's racial policy, according to which most peoples belonged to the lower race. And only a shortage of personnel in the second half of the Second World War led to the fact that in the German armed forces began to form relatively large-scale formations of representatives of other nations.

                        And now we’re starting to twirl the stern, they say, the most flawed Soviet intelligence in the world reported to you about a million by the example of one division, which means a million.
                      6. ccsr 26 January 2020 11: 47 New
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                        Quote: Octopus

                        You are jumping.

                        Sooner you started bullying ...
                        Quote: Octopus
                        When Russophobes kicked our Masha with her Glavpurovskoy version of history, they will say that three Belarusian fronts liberated Europe from fascism

                        So we always had enough fools in Russia, so their opinion should not be taken seriously as those idiots in Ukraine who rejoice at their "liberation" from the Muscovites.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        but it’s quite possible to get out.

                        The main thing is that you do not do this, and you will have peace and joy.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And now we’re starting to twirl the stern, they say, the most flawed Soviet intelligence in the world reported to you about a million by the example of one division, which means a million.

                        This was actually a documented example of the Poles fighting in the Wehrmacht, so stick your far-reaching conclusions to the place below your back.
                      7. Octopus 26 January 2020 13: 23 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        Sooner you started bullying ...

                        Forewarned is forearmed.

                        The task of the Russophobes, as the name implies, is to lime the Russians. To expose to the Russians exactly all accounts of the USSR is a great idea that will suit everyone. On the one hand, all former sister republics have long been registered as victims of communism, like Austria or the Czech Republic, victims of Nazism. On the other hand, just the official Russia struggles to drown not just because it is the successor of the Stalinist USSR, but what it is same country. Sin to miss such a case.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        This was actually a documented example of the fact that the Poles fought in the Wehrmacht.

                        Apparently, it will never reach you. Soviet documents are the primary only in Soviet affairs. Wehrmacht may be the primary only German documents.
                      8. ccsr 26 January 2020 16: 25 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        The task of the Russophobes, as the name implies, is to lime the Russians. To expose to the Russians exactly all accounts of the USSR is a great idea that will suit everyone.

                        But we are not the most stupid in the world, so as not to oppose this, at least by the strength of our weapons. It’s not enough that they will issue us - the bill will be paid off in the form of nuclear dust from those who present these bills to us. I think so.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Apparently, it will never reach you. Soviet documents are the primary only in Soviet affairs.

                        Nevertheless, these are historical documents drawn up not by the testimony of prisoners of war. I don’t think that they wanted to lie, having been captured.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The primary documents on the Wehrmacht can only be German documents.

                        I think they have it all, because already in 1943 the Wehrmacht had experienced problems with picking, and about 44-45. and talking does not make sense.
                      9. Octopus 26 January 2020 17: 05 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        I think they all have it

                        You see, Keitel thought for the Wehrmacht, not you.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        in the form of nuclear dust of those who present these accounts to us. I think so.

                        Yes, very good. Russophobes to you about the crimes of Stalin, and you boot on the podium and all into nuclear dust. Just a delight.

                        I say, now is a great time for Russophobia. If the partners weren’t pissed off, Russia wouldn’t wash off its present rising from its knees like the Germans. However, partners have enough time, maybe they will replay.
                      10. ccsr 27 January 2020 12: 39 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        You see, Keitel thought for the Wehrmacht, not you.

                        Continue, verbiage, but keep in mind that this technique is not original. Whatever Keitel thought there, foreigners fought in the Wehrmacht and this is an established fact.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Russophobes to you about the crimes of Stalin, and you boot on the podium and all into nuclear dust. Just a delight.

                        Suggest your option, only I doubt that Russophobes will listen to you at all.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I say, now is a great time for Russophobia.

                        It has always been - you simply do not know our history well, and the concept of "stinker" is unfamiliar to you.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Russia from the current rising from the knees of the eyelids cannot be washed, like the Germans.

                        What makes you think that we need to do this? What "great" idea is hidden behind this?
                      11. Octopus 27 January 2020 15: 28 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        foreigners fought in the Wehrmacht and this is an established fact.

                        First, you confuse foreigners with non-Aryans. Secondly, you cast the thesis about a million Poles and began to dope. Here you have a Soviet intelligence report, there you have Croats in Yugoslavia.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I doubt that Russophobes will listen to you at all.

                        In fact, the option has long been known. Hitler - not German, Soviet, especially Stalin - not Russian.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        you just don't know our story well

                        Bad about whom?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        "stinker" is unfamiliar to you.

                        About A smart nation would defeat a very stupid? Unfortunately, Nuremberg laws are far from the Napoleonic Codex.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        What makes you think that we need to do this?

                        To wash off? You are right, not necessary. He said without thinking.
                      12. ccsr 27 January 2020 19: 15 New
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                        Quote: Octopus
                        Secondly, you cast the thesis about a million Poles and began to dope.

                        I didn’t throw the thesis, but the VO site:

                        Author: Samsonov Alexander
                        The exact data on the number of Polish citizens worn by German uniforms is unknown. The Germans counted only the Poles, who were called up until the autumn of 1943. Then, 200 thousand soldiers were taken from the Polish Upper Silesia and Pomerania joined to the Third Reich. However, recruitment to the Wehrmacht continued further, and on an even wider scale. As a result, up to the end of 1944, up to 450 thousand citizens of pre-war Poland were called up to the Wehrmacht. According to Professor Ryszard Kaczmarek, director of the Institute of History of the University of Silesia, author of the book “Poles in the Wehrmacht”, about half a million Poles from Upper Silesia and Pomerania passed through the German armed forces.

                        https://topwar.ru/162291-kak-poljaki-sluzhili-tretemu-rejhu.html
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Unfortunately, Nuremberg laws are far from the Napoleonic Codex.

                        And what is this zaum in the question of the service of the Poles in the Wehrmacht?
                        Quote: Octopus
                        He said without thinking.

                        I got it.
                      13. Octopus 27 January 2020 19: 57 New
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                        Quote: ccsr
                        Author: Samsonov Alexander

                        Oh gods. No, It is Immpossible.
      2. mat-vey 27 January 2020 15: 18 New
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        “We also did not have Georgian, Ukrainian or Azerbaijani divisions” - If sclerosis doesn’t change me, it was thanks to the Azerbaijani division that there were problems in the defense of Crimea.
      3. ccsr 27 January 2020 19: 39 New
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        Quote: mat-vey
        It was thanks to the Azerbaijani division that there were problems in the defense of Crimea.

        More precisely, there were problems with conscripts from this region, who turned out to be not only poorly trained, but also often poorly knew the Russian language.
        It should be noted that the Crimean Front included many representatives of the Caucasian peoples, among them Armenians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis. The latter fought especially badly. Many of them deserted in droves. To the question: “Why did you run?” they all had the same answer: "Kursak (stomach) is sick." Many in the trenches froze, although the frost did not exceed 4-5 degrees. Going on the attack, they thrust the rifle under the arm, their hands into the sleeves of their greatcoats and forward. If one of them was killed or wounded, then those who were nearby stopped, sat down on the ground, forming a living circle, and expressed their grief with plaintive cries: "Wai, wai, wai ...". The enemy, seeing a motionless bunch of soldiers, opened aimed fire and quickly destroyed everyone. At the front, Azerbaijanis were contemptuously called “Yaldashi”, although this word in Azerbaijani means “comrade”.

        L. Ivanov "The Truth About SMERSH"
      4. mat-vey 28 January 2020 15: 08 New
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        No, it’s just not a hunt to look for it — but at the beginning of the war there were still divisions formed on the basis of nationality. This division fled at the very beginning of the artillery bombardment, exposing the defense ..
        And about the draftees from the national formations, the Defense Committee made a clear conclusion - to call only volunteers ...
  • Ros 56 23 January 2020 19: 02 New
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    One day they’ll guess, our people are already learned, they will no longer react to all these little brothers and sisters with childish spontaneity, and if we recover within the borders of the empire, I think that all relations will be somewhat different and we will not contain anyone at a loss.
  • Radikal 23 January 2020 19: 05 New
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    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    And here is the "social", "cap"? For the West, Russia has always been a bone in the throat, regardless of the form of government. Napoleon attacked the Russian Empire, apparently due to the presence of a socialist system in it?

    For some reason, the Napoleonic times did not touch, but distort precisely the socialist period in the history of our state ... sad
  • rocket757 23 January 2020 19: 07 New
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    TRUTH, the best cure for all nonsense and lies!
    Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten ...
    Political, party and other such interests bring a lot of harm when they are put ABOVE THE TRUTH!
  • Vladimir Mashkov 23 January 2020 19: 07 New
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    Basically I agree with the author, the article is necessary and useful. But in one thing, he is NOT right:

    “I often hear that people and politicians are different people. We won’t deceive ourselves. Politicians are a part of the people. Does anyone doubt that today in Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic countries and some in other countries do people sincerely believe in what the local “historians” are talking about?

    Why do they believe it

    I sometimes communicate with citizens of these countries. It's hard to believe, but even those who once studied in Soviet schools, today the vast majority believe precisely their historians. "


    I not only doubt, but directly say that the author is NOT right. I won’t talk about Poland and the Baltic countries: I don’t know. But in Ukraine, especially in my city of New Russia, people (the majority) DO NOT believe in secret "historians": Vyatrovich, Drobovich, and other Bebiks. The simplest evidence is my articles.
    1. Vladimir Mashkov 23 January 2020 19: 21 New
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      Yes, but there’s another mistake in the article: it’s not dad Poroshenko who drank coffee in the concentration camp, but dad Yushchenko. I sent a notice, but for some reason they do not fix it.
      1. AU Ivanov. 23 January 2020 19: 31 New
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        Dad Poroshenko, due to his nationality, would hardly drink coffee in a concentration camp. It was his son who launched Nazism in his country, forgetting that the Nazis would have left a handful of ashes from both his father and himself.
        1. Avior 24 January 2020 00: 32 New
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          Dad Poroshenko born in 1936.
          And with the nationality of his father did not understand you.
          Aleksei Ivanovich Poroshenko, was born the village of Safyany, Izmail district of the Bessarabian province, grandfather Ivan Evdokimovich Poroshenko, the Ukrainians living in Bessarabia, before the war it was Romania.
          It seems that the Ukrainians were not particularly persecuted there, or I don’t know something?
          1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 13 New
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            Quote: Avior
            It seems that Ukrainians were not particularly persecuted there

            Especially in Romania.
  • Radikal 23 January 2020 19: 09 New
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    Quote: maden.usmanow
    The truth about collaboration, about Poles, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Frenchmen, with all their might concealed the beloved author of the Union.
    This Union drove everyone into the head that only the Germans attacked, it was the Union. And do not forget about it. The NKVD archives are still classified.
    Show the truth. Well show. Well, hide it in the archives.

    You personally may not like this truth, so maybe not? sad
  • parusnik 23 January 2020 19: 18 New
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    Politicians - this is part of the people
    ... Especially in Russia ... From the beginning, Mannerheim was solemnly opened and then removed by decision of the court, it turns out that you couldn’t pin it in this place, before that they didn’t know .. Although they removed it for another reason : people didn’t accept such a spit ... Canceled on November 7, how did the tragedy happen, on this day the liberals didn’t hold power and remember this day as a parade on November 7, 1941, dedicated to November 7 .. Yes, a hybrid war, let’s fight for the truth, but not by such methods, when the guarantor of the country repents before European leaders that Moscow The ov treaty of 1939, this is not good ... It is necessary to determine and for what truth? If for such: a bloody coup took place on November 7, executioners and murderers came to power, who expelled the best people from the country, turned the rest into slaves, who allegedly built socialism at gunpoint and machine guns, and then these slaves, at gunpoint of the same machine guns, they overwhelmed the corpses of the enemy and defeated fascism and became free only in 1991, having thrown off the bloody regime .. If for such a truth, then what are our European “partners” wrong about? .. And it is such a truth that is now being imposed inside the country .. And with such a truth everything converges. Slaves instead of fascist kupatsii brought her .... as if they did not want individually, but they were forced to ... So at what the truth will fight?
  • GenNick 23 January 2020 19: 58 New
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    Alexander Staver, with all due respect to you, but for what public is this article?
    If for those who learned to read yesterday, then .... they had / have grandmothers and great-grandfathers who can tell a lot ...
    A DOUBLE to you in behavior, only because you managed to cross a hedgehog and a snake ...
    How could one compare AK with the partisan movement in Yugoslavia?
    Who knows on the forum the commander of the AK?
    And who does not know Tito here? No matter how, but Joseph !!?
    And if your grandfather really guerrilla in Belarus, then it was not the Ukrainian mov that shook him, but the Zhovners, just from AK ...
    1. avia12005 24 January 2020 05: 56 New
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      And who helped the Nazis destroy Khatyn?
      1. Octopus 24 January 2020 08: 18 New
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        Quote: avia12005
        who helped the Nazis destroy Khatyn?

        And who was the Nazi? Vasily Andreevich Meleshko?
  • g_ae 23 January 2020 20: 16 New
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    I wonder who the author is going to fight with. Better to review how Vladimir Volfovich was handing out money on Red Square. On the very one where the Victory Parade was held. Was it for this that the ancestors fought and died? What does the current state have to do with that Victory? Yes, about the same as modern Greece to the feat of the Spartans.
    1. g_ae 23 January 2020 21: 50 New
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      There’s another question, but is it interesting to our descendants for the memory of what is happening today that wants to fight?
  • Shahno 23 January 2020 20: 18 New
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    Is Davos more important than Jerusalem? No, just a question arose. Let's see which leaders prefer what ..
    Answer. Obvious after all.
    There is no need to fight for memory. And you don’t need to bustle.
    You just need to say that we remember that all princes, presidents recognize this ..
  • Tamparu 23 January 2020 21: 58 New
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    Remember the Ukrainian president Poroshenko, whose father “found out in a concentration camp what real coffee is

    A small clarification ... this is Yushchenko’s father found out in a concentration camp what real coffee is. But, I think that the ancestors of Porosh were also somewhere nearby ...
    Sincerely, hi
  • iouris 23 January 2020 22: 00 New
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    Let the football fans fight. Why are they fans? They do not know. It must be remembered. To remember, you need to know your roots. To know, one must make an effort, study history, read a lot. What does the homeland begin with? From the picture in your primer. Have you seen those primers?
  • Slavs 23 January 2020 22: 42 New
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    Good article .. Topical. My grandfather somehow dropped that the Poles were the first traitors and, on occasion, will shoot in the back ... There is no grandfather since 1987 ... Then I did not understand and did not attach any importance, but I remembered ... Grandma was nearly shot by Bandera, it’s good that they didn’t know that the teacher ... Lucky ... All the grannies were under occupation and the grandfathers fought ... Here is their opinion and the truth about that war is closer to me and I believe them unconditionally ...
    And lovers dig dirt in the archives, what can I say ... God is your judge ...
    1. Po-tzan 24 January 2020 10: 40 New
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      Quote: Slavs
      And lovers dig dirt in the archives, what can I say ... God is your judge ...


      I do not dig dirt in the archives, but the truth. And if you have some kind of problem with archived documents, then, to put it mildly, the problem is not in archived documents.
      1. ccsr 24 January 2020 11: 39 New
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        Quote: PO-tzan
        as you say softer - the problem is not in archival documents.

        How could you explain it so gently that in the USSR there were such specialists in the secret services that they could execute any historical document on order, if they were assigned such a task - I hope there is no need to explain that it was required for the legend of illegal immigrants. So keep in mind, and this can no longer be hidden, by the order of the "democrats" who came to power, a massive throw-in of some historical fakes was made, which "suddenly" appeared in the West, although they could also be fabricated there. Therefore, now there is a problem of the authenticity of some archival documents. The Yakovlev period did not pass without a trace, and just as the library of the Institute of Scientific Information on Social Sciences of the Russian Academy of Sciences burned under Pivovarov, I do not exclude that this was an order of certain "historians" who tried to get rid of objectionable documents in order to distort our history.
        1. Operator 24 January 2020 11: 51 New
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          In Katyn, the NKVD of the USSR shot Polish punishers and invaders, who persecuted from 1919 to 1939 the participants of the national liberation movement in Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.

          Gorbachev and Co. solved the problem in any way the West liked, hence the wild assessments of the actions of the USSR in 1939-41.
      2. Slavs 24 January 2020 21: 51 New
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        Quote: PO-tzan
        and the truth

        And the truth will be told to you by those who were there, and not by lovers to fish out the information they need at the moment from archives of unknown origin ...
        1. Octopus 25 January 2020 01: 11 New
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          Quote: Slavs
          And the truth will be told to you by those who were there

          Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev, Order of Suvorov, Order of Kutuzov, Lieutenant General. He was there. Arranged?
          1. Ezekiel 25 January 2020 01: 32 New
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            Quote: Octopus
            Will arrange?

            How much do you get? Here I read you from time to time, write a lot, with inspiration ...
            With a twinkle! yes
            Almost around the clock. After all, they should pay for it, as I understand it? It is unlikely that there are many, but perhaps 30 - 40 then it seems to be on the run?
            PS Do not think that I am criticized! On the contrary, write more, absolutely interesting and entertaining for me. It’s a pity that do not write articles ...
          2. Slavs 25 January 2020 11: 35 New
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            No. Not satisfied. If you carefully read my comment, then it says to whose opinion I was listening. It would be better if the head on the shoulders was, rather than eight legs ...
            1. Octopus 25 January 2020 12: 11 New
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              Quote: Slavs
              whose opinion did I listen to

              Is your relative against the “filth in the archives”? Oh well.
  • avia12005 24 January 2020 05: 55 New
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    And how many Russian sites on political or historical subjects in Polish? Not at all. The situation is the same with other languages, with the exception of perhaps English and German. And how to convey our point of view?
    1. Ezekiel 25 January 2020 01: 36 New
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      Quote: avia12005
      And how to convey our point of view?

      What for? Why communicate our point of view? We ourselves do not know her, and when we know we are shy ...
      What would it be to convey to begin with ...
  • verp19 24 January 2020 10: 21 New
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    According to the famous sociologist, academician G.V. Osipov, social mythology is “a subject of science that studies the emergence, content and dissemination of myths, the social conditioning of myth-making” [6, p. 1]. Social myth-making speculatively puts forward this or that social myth and considers its practical implementation as an end in itself. The author focuses on the fact that social myth-making has negative consequences, expressed in the fact that it “disarms” people, gives rise to new illusions, the expectation of a new miracle.

    Embodying reality, the myth is inevitably accompanied by the phenomenon of “inverse results”, which no one had foreseen, much less wanted.

    Social myth-making is essentially the antipode of the social sciences. Moreover, hiding behind science, it distorts real knowledge about society and man, helping small ruling elites to hold power in their hands. The desire to seize and retain power requires a cynical, disguised as hypocrisy, conscious deception of the people. Accordingly, social myths are constructed, selected and promoted based not on how much they correspond to science, but depending on how they affect the social behavior of people.

    The positive, creative action of social mythology, more effective in comparison with traditional forms of ideological influence, is noted by the American sociologist A. Wiener. In particular, in his work “The Magnificent Myth: Forms of Governance in a Post-Industrial Society,” he raises the question of developing the so-called goal-setting myths. At the same time, he uses the word "ideology" only in a negative sense, meaning by it an obsolete myth, such a spiritual phenomenon that has lost its ability to unite people's thoughts.

    History, life itself has shown that very often the masses are influenced not so much by the mind as by emotions, fears, myths, i.e. a certain psychological state. Often we observe that the mass yields not to conviction, but to suggestion, the impact on its emotions, beliefs. In other words, the behavior of the masses of people is very often determined not by rational, but by irrational moments.

    The status of social myth-making is most convenient for politicians and power structures. Here, deep scientific research is not needed; here, practice and knowledge are replaced by social myths in the guise of slogans. For example, “Communism is the bright future of all mankind”, etc. And all this is very convenient.

    It is enough to invent a slogan, declare it a “great” contribution to public life and start, on the basis of this slogan or slogans, to “rebuild”, “reform”, or even “transform” the social reality of the country, while not thinking about the real consequences for society and person. Thanks to this kind of social myths, Kazakhstan, like other republics of the former Union, has drawn into various kinds of social transformations, becoming a "laboratory" for various social and political "experiments."

    The era of the mass media forces us to use not so much power arguments for managing society as information technologies based on knowledge of human nature, the mythological background of the collective unconscious.

    Social, political, economic, religious myths are produced in huge quantities and with unprecedented speed in the information space and, despite their illusory nature, have a very real impact as facts of social life. The new myth has become a means of social mobilization and manipulation of public consciousness. Modern culture continues to intensively produce myths designed to connect and channel public energy, satisfy the needs of a consumer society, for example, to stimulate the consumption of products, as advertising does, create an attractive image of a politician using television, etc.

    The new myth appears as a false mobilizing structure, capable of painlessly integrating a person and the masses into social reality, while creating an impression of truth and a state of psychological comfort among their followers. So, for example, television advertising so widely introduced into the mass consciousness has a significant impact on the cultural and information space created by it largely on the basis of the mythologization of reality.

    Information, framed in the shell of a myth, acquires a sensually expressive concreteness, is easily remembered, aesthetizes the life world of a modern person and throws it, at best, into the arms of illusions, at worst - makes it the object of various manipulations.
  • ZaharoFF 24 January 2020 14: 34 New
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    You need to answer - at the same time respond extremely harshly. Do not leave anyone and nothing unanswered, in all possible forms and forms, to the most radical. The only way.
    1. mat-vey 25 January 2020 06: 19 New
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      Well, yes, and when the children of their loved ones in jeeps at the monument to the Unknown Soldier in jeeps are driven to understand and forgive ...
  • Fishery 24 January 2020 21: 49 New
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    if you ban articles about Ukraine on the Second World War then probably a third of the material will disappear))))) well, at least Old Man sometimes helps)
    1. fighter angel 28 January 2020 14: 09 New
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      You flatter yourself.
      Do you continue to stick out your hoax here?
      Like, where are we, "scoops", without you, Svidomo, right?
      You are now confidently moving in the same direction as the “tesser” with the “Kirushas”. Towards BANA!
      I do not scare you, I warn you ...
      So that later they wouldn’t ask: “What about us?”
      1. Fishery 28 January 2020 14: 56 New
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        ha ha can be seen nowhere))) scoops and Svidomo brothers forever))))
  • Chaldon48 25 January 2020 02: 38 New
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    The fact that today's blogger commentators and other interpreters so easily introduce their false conjectures into the minds of people, and among bloggers those who passionately believe in their own propaganda, comes not least from the fact that Russia as a state has to endure all kinds of humiliations and in politics and even in sports, that is, to a large extent, we have lost the status of a strong winner and switched to a dead defense. Russia is far from always, in our time, able to adequately respond to the humiliating effects of our opponents, and economic weakness also affects, despite the status of a world power. All this gives our opponents local victories in the information war.
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  • Jarserge 28 January 2020 08: 41 New
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    The Khrushchev lie, the lie of the 90s lies of the Gorbachev, Yeltsin Yakovlev Korotch Chubais gives its seedlings. If you haven’t fought this for so many years and smiled indulgently, “they say, what to get from them”, you have to wait. In the USA and Europe, they have been systematically doing this for a long time, for example, in Italy, most citizens are confident that Italy, together with the entire "free world", fought against the USSR and Hitler. The USA is who is the main winner of Hitler
  • Ilya Zaitsev 28 January 2020 14: 47 New
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    One must be truly Great in order to acknowledge his historical mistakes, which led to devastating results.
    Countries that abandoned attempts at imperial hegemony: Germany, France, Japan, the UK began to live more successfully in terms of self-realization of citizens and the productivity of the economy.
    Wars must end, humanity with unique cultures must learn to coexist without the principles of superiority of its national characteristics or religious and ideological preferences and beliefs.
    Laws that correlate with a concensual solution to the problems of inconsistency of interests of the parties should regulate and provide guarantees of peaceful coexistence.
    Maybe enough barbaric greed and self-centeredness is enough?