"Heroes" Vasnetsov: when the main epic in the picture


The "heroes" of V. M. Vasnetsov


The smallest details of the picture, painted with utmost care and archaeological authenticity - the clothes of the warriors, their weapons, the decoration of the horses - are subordinate to the general idea of ​​the work and, without diverting attention to the direction of "archeology", only reinforce the general impression of a complete life and historical the veracity of this truly folk canvas.
Wonderful paintings. L., 1966.S. ​​298


Art and history. A few words for those who read articles in “VO” hastily, through a line, or read in them something that has never been there. This article is by no means an attempt to insult, belittle or belittle significance for the Russian culture by the paintings of “The Athletes” (yes, this is the name of this famous painting, and not the “Three Athletes” at all, as they began to call it colloquially later!), written by Viktor Mikhailovich Vasnetsov. But this is also the answer to the eulogy contained in the epigraph to this picture. It is quite obvious that a talented artist has the right to depict on his canvases samples of material culture very far from reality, as Leonardo da Vinci did in the painting “The Battle of Angiar”, for example, and that his art could well be conditional if this art is real . Now, if the artist is not too talented and does not put any special ideas into the picture, then he should portray everything photographically accurately. Another thing is if he knows how to convey the spirit of the phenomenon with his brush, to fill his canvas with some otherworldly power, then any liberties will be excusable to him. Not being his goal, that's all!

However, knowing this, we should also know how reliably he depicted certain objects from the same "archeology" on this canvas! And can they be trusted from a historical point of view. Moreover, the picture "Heroes", like perhaps no other, allows you to do this.

"Heroes" Vasnetsov: when the main epic in the picture
The first sketch of the painting "The Heroes", 1871-1874

First, a little history. Vasnetsov hatched the idea of ​​a picture of the heroes for more than twenty years. And he said of her like this: “Maybe I did not always work on“ The Knights ”with due diligence and tension, but they were relentless in front of me, only my heart was drawn to them and my hand reached out! This is my creative duty. ” The time was such that artists of the rank of Vasnetsov even painted insignificant details from life, and even several times. Used artifacts Armory chambers of the Kremlin, and to pose for them was considered an honor, and considerable.

So Ilya Muromets for his “Heroes” V. M. Vasnetsov wrote from the Abramtsevo peasant-cabman Ivan Petrov. In the role of the prototype of the young Alyosha Popovich, the son of the philanthropist Savva Mamontov, Andrei, on whose estate Vasnetsov visited Abramtsevo with his family, acted. As for Dobrynia, the art historian Nikolai Prakhov believed that his face is a collective image of the Vasnetsovs - the artist’s father, his uncle and partly the painter himself. Although there is such a version that Dobrynya was written by the artist V.D. Polenova. As for the horses, everything is simple: they all belonged to Savva Mamontov, so the artist was always at hand.


Etude Vasnetsova for the painting "Heroes". 1876 ​​year

When the canvas was presented for public viewing in 1898, it was appreciated by both the public and criticism. And she was so struck by the famous collector P.M. Tretyakov that he stood before her for a long time and immediately offered to buy. At Vasnetsov’s personal exhibition in March-April 1899, she also attracted the attention of the public, and this is not surprising. Such power and originality blows from her that you just feel them physically, it’s enough just to stand a little near this canvas.

Previously, the heroes of epics were considered to be exclusively fictional characters, but historians have found that the “real” Ilya Muromets, for example, was born in the city of Murom in the XII century. Under the name Elijah, he was buried in the Kiev Pechersk Lavra, and in 1643 he was canonized. His relics were preserved, according to which it even became clear that he had problems, and his height was about 182 cm. At the same time, the heroes could meet together only in the artist’s painting. When Ilya was young, Dobrynya was already an old man, and Alyosha Popovich was still a boy. By the way, in reality, the hero Alexander Popovich was by no means a priest - a “priest’s son”, but a Rostov boyar, fought in the squads of Vsevolod the Big Nest, Konstantin Vsevolodovich and Mstislav Stary, and died in the battle of Kalka in 1223.


“Helmet with Deesis” (Armory of the Moscow Kremlin)

Well, now let's take a closer look at this picture from the point of view of weaponry, that is, those samples of weapons and armor that are depicted on it. Let's start with the figure on the far left - Dobryni Nikitich. On his head is the so-called "helmet with the Deesis" or "Greek cap." And he is known for the only model that is in the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin and it is obvious that it was from him that he was painted. The helmet dates from the XIII-XIV centuries, but in Byzantium could be used before. In the inventory of 1687, it is said of him as follows: “The hat with Deesis is iron, the grasses are made of small gold and silver. Decrepit, not armed. According to the current census of 1687 and upon inspection, that cap against the previous census books came together. The price is sixty rubles, and the previous book describes the fifth. ” On the crown of the helmets, notches and gilding were made images along with inscriptions in Greek. You can see the figures of the Almighty, the Virgin, John the Baptist, two Guardian Angels, two Cherubs and two Evangelists, one of which is St. Nicholas the Wonderworker.


Bogatyr Dobrynya

Such a helmet could be used with a chain of barmitsa, and Vasnetsov painted it. Well, the choice of helmet type is obvious. Most likely, the artist wanted to show the cultural connection between Russia and Byzantium, as well as the religiosity of the hero, whose helmet is not for nothing adorned with images of saints. The appearance of Dobrynia is amazing. If we look at the drawings and engravings in a magazine such as Niva, we will see what exactly the Scandinavians and Germans, the heroes of the Song of the Nibelungs, and not the Slavs portrayed at that time. Put on him a helmet with wings, and in front of us will be just Thor or Odin.


Emil Doppler. "Feast on Valhalla", 1905. The far right character ...

The armor is very interesting in Dobryn. First of all, this is plate armor made of metal rectangles sewn onto blue fabric. Then he is wearing chain mail with short wide sleeves. But he also has his forearms pulled into chain mail, with metal bracelets at his wrist.

The size of the plates and their shape do not allow us to identify this armor either as a collar or as anything else. And even more so for the XII - XIII centuries. "Warrior era" chain mail is completely "out of date" with sleeves to the wrist, and even skin-tight. In a word, here we are dealing with the imagination of the author, although it practically does not catch the eye. For some reason, he did not tie Dobrynya to this footwear, although he could have done it.


Singer with sleeves from the State Historical Museum, No. 68257. Korh A.S. Kulikovo battle. 600 years State Historical Museum. M. Vneshtorgizdat, 1980

The shield of Dobryny is more striking because it is red, and even strewn with plaques. Their very abundance is doubtful. Such findings are unknown. But umbon is especially atypical. It should have a hemispherical or cylindrical-conical shape, and its size should be such that a hand bent into a fist hides under it.

Very interesting sword in Dobrynia. This is a typical Scandinavian sword, with a three-part pommel and a crosshair slightly curved towards the point. The pattern on it and on the crosshairs is typically Norman. There are many similar swords, like umbons, in the “Petersen typology” - the encyclopedic publication “Norwegian Viking Age Swords” (Jan Petersen “Norwegian Viking Age Swords. Typochronological Study of Viking Age Weapons.” St. Petersburg. Alpharet, 2005). It seems that Vasnetsov did not see anything bad in the "Norman theory", or at least did not think that for some reason it might be shameful for our hero to use a sword of "Scandinavian origin." True, the exact type of sword “according to Petersen” in the picture is difficult to determine, but that this is a Scandinavian sword is undoubted.

In general, in my opinion, Dobrynya in the picture (if you do not take into account the shield without a umbone) looks like ... a Scandinavian king, who served in Byzantium. There he acquired plate armor, characteristic of the Greeks, and two chain mail, worn one under the other, a rich Greek helmet, and he kept his own sword with a “native” gilt handle.


Ilya Muromets

The figure of this hero is dressed more simply by the artist: chain mail, though with a beautiful brooch on his left shoulder, a very simple helmet. It can be seen that he has a quiver of arrows behind him, which means there is a bow, but he is not visible. The main thing that the viewer draws attention to is a spear and an impressive mace with small and quite fearless spikes. The spear is also very impressive, but there are questions to it. Ilya is a horseman, a knight, which means he must have a horseman spear. That is, to have a tip ... “wings” so that after a spear strike the spear would not pierce the “target of the attack” through, and its owner would have a chance (albeit small!) To extract it and reuse it. Of course, spearheads without wings are also known. However, already in the cavalry of the Carolingians they were used without fail. That is, ideally, the spearhead itself should already be and must have a crosshair. And Vasnetsov could well draw it. But for some reason he didn’t ...


Tip with a crosshair from the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. Length 223 cm. Weight 2579,8 g

Similarly, a mace that hangs at Muromets’s wrist has a completely fantastic look. Moreover, apparently it was the image of this mace that should be considered the brand name of Vasnetsov - once he has drawn it, he repeats it again and again. We see this mace in his painting “The Battle of the Scythians with the Slavs”, written by him in 1881; armed with it (though without thorns) was the “Knight at the Crossroads” of 1882. Although on his earlier canvas “After the Battle of Igor Svyatoslavich and the Polovtsy” of 1880, we see very impressive spikes in the mace depicted there.


“The Battle of the Scythians with the Slavs” (State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg)


“The Knight at the Crossroads” (State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg)

It turns out that the artist deliberately sought to give the appearance of Muromets the appearance of the greatest possible peace. That is, the "spikes" on his mace, although there are, are so small that they do not play any special role. But the most interesting is that this mace of his is purely fabulous, or rather “epic,” because such weapons do not exist in reality. That is, pear-shaped maces are known, but they have completely different proportions. Vasnetsov could see the Turkish ceremonial maces of similar shapes in the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin. Their appearance clearly sunk into his soul, and he developed it into something that did not really exist, but which produced a very reliable impression.


Armory of the Mace

Now imagine for a moment that the artist would arm Ilya with a real, museum mace. Would she look in the picture? Definitely not. Or it would be an awesome-looking weapon studded with spikes, more likely talking about the bloodthirstiness of its owner, rather than about its peacefulness, or ... a “ball on a stick”, completely incompatible with the heroic appearance of Ilya. Ingenious? Yes, brilliant, although not historical. Not historical - but epic!


Indo-Persian pear-shaped mace from the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art


The top of this mace close-up

Here’s the shield ... it’s clearly round, metal with a umber and also clearly migrated here from the picture “The Knight at the Crossroads”, but ... the thing is, there were no such shields in Russia at that “heroic time”! This is a typical Turkish Kalkan, which spread in our 1899th century, so here an almond-shaped, large, “scarlet” shield would be more suitable. Well, here's something like shields from the Bilibino Red Horseman of XNUMX and his other warriors. The picture would not get worse.


Mace with a pear-shaped top of King Charles X of the Royal Arsenal in Stockholm.


A pear-shaped mace from Dean, India. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. On the arm of Ilya Muromets, she obviously would not have looked!



Mace with spikes, Italy, Milan, second half of the XNUMXth century. Wallace Collection, London. And such a mace would also not look, although it really existed.



Alyosha Popovich

The last third hero is the youngest and, apparently, therefore dressed in the “youngest” armor for Russia. He wears a helmet and a chain-plate armor of a clearly eastern pattern. Well, and, of course, the bow is beautifully written out, again from the Armory collection.


Helmet XVIII - XIX centuries. India or Persia. Weight 1780,4 g (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)

It is interesting that on his neck he has a hryvnia and a chain, and a ring with a stone on his finger, and a ring, and his belt with a set is rich, that is, Alesha loves to have a fake from Vasnetsov, and even without that, if he succeeded in appearance, and how then in this case, “good fellow” and without a beautiful “pattern”? Everyone writes about the harp at the saddle, but somehow the crosshairs and the top of the sword have some similarities with these details of the sword of Charles the Great “Jauiez” somehow no one paid attention, although there is such a similarity. True, the ends of the crosshairs of the French sword are clearly longer.


Juayez Hilt (Louvre Museum, Paris)


Could Alyosha be dressed differently? Yes you can. Here, for example, as in the illustration from the book of A.V. Whiskey "A historical description of clothing and weapons of the Russian troops, ed. Viskovatova A.V., Part 1. St. Petersburg. The military. typ., 1841-1862. Fig. 95. " As you can see, his bow is exactly the same, and his saber is clearly of an oriental type. The armor is a bandar with a mantle, and on the head is a “paper hat”. But, in principle, this would give absolutely nothing to reveal his image, there was simply a painted illustration “from the Whiskey”

We do not know what the artist was thinking about, creating this ingenious canvas. He left no recollections of how he painted this picture. But the thought involuntarily comes to mind that Dobrynya symbolizes Byzantium and the Varangians, Alyosha is the East, from which the eastern weapons and the traditions of on-line combat came to us, but Ilya Muromets embodies the unifying force of the Russian people, it stands between the West and the East, the most powerful, powerful and wise.

So yes, there are paintings in which historicity is sacrificed for epicity, but if the master writes them, their quality does not suffer at all, we just understand that the artist has shifted a number of emphasis for greater expressiveness and ... that’s it! The idea dominates everything and masterfully dominates at the same time!

Now imagine that Vasnetsov would not be ... what he was, but would draw three warriors of different ages of the same time and belonging to the same culture. This could be an excellent illustration of the Black Grave burial or warriors in the “helmets of Yaroslav Vsevolodovich” - those who are richer, who are poorer. The whole three could have either round ones with a umbone or almond-shaped shields and ... what would we end up with? And would these heroes be compared with the heroes we know ?!
Ctrl Enter

Noticed a mistake Highlight text and press. Ctrl + Enter

144 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. WILL 22 January 2020 05: 17 New
    • 17
    • 3
    +14
    Great Article! To the author - Respect! It would seem that a picture familiar to everyone since childhood ... but looked at it in a new way!
    Vasnetsov V. M - certainly a talented artist!
    1. Uncle lee 22 January 2020 05: 51 New
      • 8
      • 2
      +6
      Ilya Muromets embodies the unifying power of the Russian people
      Vasnetsov grabbed everything! And Shpakovsky once again explained everything to us! hi
      1. Proxima 22 January 2020 13: 01 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        Shpakovsky would not have been Shpakovsky if he had not written this: "It seems Vasnetsov is nothing wrong with "Norman theory" did not see". But, this is what? request This is an artist, and this is just his work? Where did such amazing “scientific” conclusions come from?
        1. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 53 New
          • 5
          • 2
          +3
          Looked carefully to the depicted, hence the conclusions. And if he had seen, the other would have drawn a sword and would have curled differently.
          1. Proxima 22 January 2020 14: 40 New
            • 7
            • 1
            +6
            Quote: kalibr
            Looked carefully to the depicted, hence the conclusions.

            Dear Vyacheslav! You forum users "awarded" different "epithets", but in any case, a person with a narrow mind you will not be called! What is essentially a "Norman theory"? First of all, answer the two main questions: how a handful of Vikings was able to subdue the vast territory from Novgorod to Kiev? Such a conquest, by today's standards, is very problematic. And the second question: why all Slavic tribal unions, which were before the 9th century, always disintegrated? The answer is very simple: the leader of the Slavic union always pulled dressed in favor of his tribe, which other tribes did not like. What was needed was an “effective manager” from the outside, expressing the interests of the entire Union. So the "group of managers" led by Rurik turned up. "Come and rule us .." - "The Tale of Bygone Years." Here you have the whole "Norman theory", about which spears have been breaking for more than two hundred years. what
            1. kalibr 22 January 2020 16: 20 New
              • 7
              • 0
              +7
              You answered better than me. It was exactly the same!
          2. Fat
            Fat 23 January 2020 00: 52 New
            • 2
            • 0
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Looked carefully to the depicted, hence the conclusions. And if he had seen, the other would have drawn a sword and would have curled differently.

            Ilya has a normal battle spear, however. A spear with a crosshair on the tip is more hunting, sometimes they call it a spear. And they used it more on foot, pushing the pole against the ground. The crosshairs should stop the attacker's head. In a cavalry attack, a spear is a disposable weapon almost always, especially against a foot system.
            1. abrakadabre 28 January 2020 21: 13 New
              • 0
              • 0
              0
              In a cavalry attack, a spear is a disposable weapon almost always, especially against a foot system.
              It depends on when, where. Caching is approved as the main attack technique 100-150 years later. And even that, mainly in Western Europe.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 January 2020 05: 52 New
      • 13
      • 2
      +11
      Vyacheslav Olegovich in the morning pleased! While I ran through the line, I will relish on the weekend. Thank you and good day to all!
      1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 10: 35 New
        • 9
        • 1
        +8
        While ran through the line, I will relish on the weekend. Thank you and good day to all!

        yes, but at the weekend it will be too late to enjoy the forum ..... sad
        1. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 18: 26 New
          • 5
          • 0
          +5
          Fortunately, Vlad generally devotes time to the forum.
          1. Pane Kohanku 23 January 2020 09: 29 New
            • 4
            • 0
            +4
            Fortunately, Vlad generally devotes time to the forum.

            Well, yes ... with its rhythm of life and the type of activity it’s generally difficult to have fun .. what drinks
  2. bald 22 January 2020 06: 14 New
    • 6
    • 2
    +4
    Good article. Yes, the picture looks different, that I personally would not want it - the fabulousness of this picture is lost. Let art critics get to the bottom better, it's like the same numismatists, they look at every item on a coin and they all look at the subject, not like all of us. To each his own. Thanks to the author for the tour again - fine.
  3. Korsar4 22 January 2020 06: 28 New
    • 6
    • 0
    +6
    Surprised by the eastern image of Alyosha Popovich. How is it combined with the Rostov boyar?
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 16 New
      • 12
      • 1
      +11
      Quote: Korsar4
      Surprised by the eastern image of Alyosha Popovich. How is it combined with the Rostov boyar?

      And take the boyar of Miloslavsky ... True, the beginning of the 17th century. The sword is Turkish, the helmet is Turkish, the yushman is Turkish ... Minin has a Persian sword, and Pozharsky has a Turkish broadsword ... "All the best was from Turkey then."
      1. Korsar4 22 January 2020 19: 30 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        You can’t buy facial features.

        Were there boyars from the East by then?
      2. Fat
        Fat 23 January 2020 01: 05 New
        • 2
        • 0
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        All the best then was from Turkey. "

        Well, yes, in the 16th century this is absolutely true. Sublime Porte...
        For Pozharsky is very cool. Do you want to say that Vasnetsov mixed together all generations of warriors who armed with flintlock and whom with AK? So to speak for epicism clearly?
      3. Pane Kohanku 23 January 2020 09: 32 New
        • 6
        • 1
        +5
        And take the boyar of Miloslavsky ... True, the beginning of the 17th century.

        why not Georges, mid-sixteenth century? wink
        "All the best then was from Turkey."

        Citizens! Keep money in a savings bank! If of course you have them ... laughing
    2. Hantengri 22 January 2020 09: 08 New
      • 8
      • 1
      +7
      Quote: Korsar4

      Surprised by the eastern image of Alyosha Popovich. How is it combined with the Rostov boyar?

      It blends naturally. Few could Rostov boyar rob? For example, he could undress a Polovtsian, and that, in turn, would divide another person, etc. And the result was a kind of "cycle of things in nature." In addition, the Rostov boyar, simply, could afford to buy all this.
      1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 10: 02 New
        • 11
        • 1
        +10
        Few could Rostov boyar rob? For example, he could undress a Polovtsian, and that, in turn, would divide another person, etc.

        straight "cycle of expropriation on the big road in nature" it turns out, Igor! wink type like: 1. The Aztecs squeeze gold from the Tlaxcalans, and make crafts, and from the Tlaxcalans themselves - minced meat. 2. The Spaniards squeeze gold from the Aztecs and make gold bricks from crafts. 3. The most intelligent, the British, wait until the Spaniards put these bricks in the holds of the galleons, and squeeze the gold already in the sea! laughing drinks
        In fact, I bow to the Author for summarizing the article:
        The whole three could have either round ones with a umbone or almond-shaped shields and ... what would we end up with? And would these heroes be compared with the heroes we know ?!

        It would be an ordinary book illustration. But not a great work of art! request
        I agree with Anton - the image of Elijah resembles the image of Alexander III. Given the time of writing the picture - all the more, it was successfully chosen. hi
        1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 11: 46 New
          • 7
          • 0
          +7
          Quote: Pan Kohanku
          straight "the cycle of expropriation on the big road in nature" turns out, Igor! such as: 1. The Aztecs squeeze gold from the Tlaxcalans and make crafts, and the minced meat from the Tlaxcalans themselves. 2. The Spaniards squeeze gold from the Aztecs and make gold bricks from crafts. 3. The most intelligent, the British, wait until the Spaniards put these bricks in the holds of the galleons, and squeeze the gold already in the sea!
          In fact, I bow to the Author for summarizing the article:

          Expropriation of expropriators! In an endless, closed loop ... laughing drinks
          1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 12: 56 New
            • 4
            • 1
            +3
            In an endless, closed loop ...

            But what about the friction force? buns will decrease in size from the recipient to the recipient! wink drinks
            1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 21: 09 New
              • 5
              • 1
              +4
              The force of friction is laid by you in the description of the body of the cycle. And it doesn’t affect his work. Those. after completing step 3, "the smartest, the British .... squeeze gold out of the sea already!" immediately begins step 1 "the Aztecs squeeze gold from the Tlaxcalans, ..." and so on in a circle. Losses of gold, at the same time, occur at each iteration, by definition. But with infinity, I got excited. The cycle is infinite, only if there are an infinite number of Tlaxcalans. wassat
              1. Pane Kohanku 23 January 2020 09: 39 New
                • 5
                • 1
                +4
                The cycle is infinite, only if there are an infinite number of Tlaxcalans.

                that is, urgently send them to Tlaskali Tlaskalu echelon of food, and issue maternity capital, so as to multiply and multiply? wassat drinks
        2. Catfish 22 January 2020 12: 32 New
          • 8
          • 1
          +7
          Nikolay, hello! hi
          It would be an ordinary book illustration

          Illustration not included in the article: Combat training of epic heroes. (joke) wink
          1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 12: 59 New
            • 8
            • 0
            +8
            Illustration not included in the article: Combat training of epic heroes. (joke)

            Konstantin, dratrati! drinks but I liked it here - an old Russian story from Smeshariks:

            But when the gentlemen of Novgorod were already baptized, they did not erect an idol, but they swept the gates to themselves to Hagia Sophia from the Swedes. laughing
            here is the archive. If someone writes about superethnos, he can use for illustrations ... wink
            https://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic2058012.html
            and what? I love Smesharikov .... good drinks
        3. Astra wild 22 January 2020 19: 53 New
          • 3
          • 0
          +3
          Anton is nice to me, something romantic is present, but in this case, not only Anton said it: there is a certain Vladkub on the site and he talked about it. Probably read somewhere and informed us, and Anton repeated. Most likely both read about it and flashed erudition
          1. Pane Kohanku 23 January 2020 09: 46 New
            • 4
            • 0
            +4
            I like Anton, something romantic is present

            Anton is pretty for everyone! wink
            - I really love Peje ..
            - And I’m even more of him!
            fellow ("Kin-Dza-Dza")
            Most likely both read about it and flashed erudition

            And it seems to me that if there is such an archetype in the form of Tsar Alexander the Peacemaker, it is not surprising that several smart people united by the same reading material had the same associative series! request
  4. Van 16 22 January 2020 06: 39 New
    • 8
    • 0
    +8
    The picture is impressive of course, a powerful picture. I also really like Konstantin Vasiliev, I went to Kazan specially to see his paintings live.
  5. Talgarets 22 January 2020 06: 44 New
    • 7
    • 0
    +7
    In the original picture looks especially epic. This is one of Vasnetsov's most famous works, recognizable by everyone.
  6. Phil77 22 January 2020 06: 55 New
    • 7
    • 1
    +6
    Good morning to everyone! Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you. You got a wonderful article about a wonderful picture. In your childhood / before moving to a new apartment / I went to kindergarten located near Vasnetsov’s house-museum. Such a beautiful kindergarten was, you know, in the style of the boyar’s chambers. I don’t know what happened before the revolution, but now the House of the Church Book. Although judging by the area, the Trinity Compound, there probably was a life of some church official. Nowadays there is nothing / almost / left of this beautiful old Moscow region, a point building, do you know.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 13 New
      • 6
      • 0
      +6
      In the summer, Sergey traveled through Moscow to Europe, his family went to the Gallery and updated their perception. It’s a pity I didn’t take a picture of her, although I wanted to and I was still planning this article, but something distracted me and ... Then I was still in Feodosia, in the Aivazovsky Museum. But there canvases are difficult to photograph ...
  7. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 07: 08 New
    • 10
    • 0
    +10
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! The image of Ilya Muromets reminds me of the equestrian sculpture of Alexander III.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 10 New
      • 6
      • 0
      +6
      By the way, yes - I looked now - there are similarities.
    2. Hantengri 22 January 2020 09: 35 New
      • 11
      • 2
      +9
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      resembles an equestrian sculpture of Alexander III.

      This is which:
      "There is a chest of drawers,
      On the dresser is a hippo,
      On a hippopotamus a revolution,
      On the revolving cap,
      On the cap is a cross,
      Who guesses
      Togo under arrest. "(C)?
      In my opinion, they make a completely different impression: Ilya - of formidable and noble power, and Alexander - of immense severity, from which his horse is about to die.
      1. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 09: 49 New
        • 10
        • 1
        +9
        Bingo, Igor! Specially did not give a link to oral folk art
        1. novel66 22 January 2020 10: 38 New
          • 7
          • 1
          +6
          well, if we recall the oral folklore - then there is a whole mystery about the heroes: six goals five ... and so on
      2. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 10: 48 New
        • 7
        • 0
        +7
        Quote: HanTengri
        There is a chest of drawers

        There is another option:
        ... in revolving cap
        what crank (the letter "M") is the folder?
        Who will give the correct answer
        He will receive ten years

        I’m not sure that my version comes from precisely those times, “ten years” is more about Stalin's times, but for the first time I heard this riddle in this version.
  8. Sentinel-vs 22 January 2020 07: 23 New
    • 13
    • 0
    +13
    Good article. Even in Soviet childhood, in school, the teacher set out to us the theory that the hero on the left in the picture symbolizing western Russia (Russia (USSR)) is therefore more normal in appearance. On the right is the symbol of Central Asia, Turks, even the Mongols as well as part of Russia (Russia (USSR)). In the center is the salt of the Russian land.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 00 New
      • 9
      • 1
      +8
      Quote: Sentinel-vs
      Even in Soviet childhood, in school, a teacher set out a theory for us

      Clever woman!
      1. Sentinel-vs 22 January 2020 10: 04 New
        • 6
        • 0
        +6
        Something now took a closer look at the picture and thought, if Vasnetsov really had a symbolism deep in the work, then the details are interesting: Muromets (center) carefully peers towards the western borders, Dobrynya (western Russia) with a formidable look generally draws a sword, while Alyosha (Central Asia, east) so far has only slightly glanced towards the west, but nevertheless an arrow has already been placed on the bow.
  9. Mik13 22 January 2020 07: 42 New
    • 7
    • 0
    +7
    But umbon is especially atypical. It should have a hemispherical or cylindrical-conical shape, and its size should be such that a hand bent into a fist hides under it.

    Fist grip was used only on foot combat. The rider is not able to use the fist shield. Therefore, the shield at Dobrynya is ordinary, with an elbow strap. Umbon is a traditional rudiment, not a functional element.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 03 New
      • 6
      • 2
      +4
      Nobody did specially designed horse and foot shields. As confirmed by the findings of archaeologists.
      1. Mik13 22 January 2020 08: 18 New
        • 4
        • 0
        +4
        Quote: kalibr
        Nobody did specially designed horse and foot shields. As confirmed by the findings of archaeologists.

        That's it.
        Therefore, the shield in the picture is with an elbow strap. He does not need Umbon.
        A shield with a hilt (fist) is generally a very specific thing ...
        1. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 49 New
          • 3
          • 0
          +3
          Quote: Mik13
          A shield with a hilt (fist) is generally a very specific thing ...

          You confuse the buckler and the normal normal shield that was common among warriors of different nations and eras. Only these were. And the Romans, and the Vikings, and the Baltic states, and our ancestors, too.
  10. Sirocco 22 January 2020 07: 47 New
    • 9
    • 7
    +2
    Analysis of the picture is interesting, this is the version of the author with which you can agree or you can not agree. As well as with the picture as a whole, as for me this picture is a collective image, the artist’s fiction and no more that is, what he saw “today”, he painted with fantasy, because no one takes Kira Bulychev’s fantastic stories into theses.
    We go further.
    It seems that Vasnetsov did not see anything bad in the "Norman theory", or at least did not think that for some reason it might be shameful for our hero to use a sword of "Scandinavian origin." True, the exact type of sword “according to Petersen” in the picture is difficult to determine, but that this is a Scandinavian sword is undoubted.
    Honestly, this Norman theory is already tired of me. Let's look at this theory from the other side, maybe the Normans have Russian weapons and armor? Zadolbal already self-flagellation, then the Slavs could not write, then the state of industry, etc. before the Normans was not in Russia. How much you can worship the West and humiliate yourself, and let others do it. With such a pace of self-flagellation and self-humiliation, Poland’s modern claims regarding World War II will become true in languages ​​in ten years. Good can sprinkle ash on his head and bring to life the Overton Window.
    Maybe we will discuss this picture)))))) The same Three Heroes.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 08: 06 New
      • 14
      • 5
      +9
      Quote: Sirocco
      How much you can worship the West and humiliate yourself, and let others do it.

      Why worship and humiliate yourself? What is the humiliation? In England there was a whole area of ​​Danish law - Denlo and it does not humiliate anyone and no one worships Denmark there. Why normal historical phenomena in us cause such a strange reaction. This is a clear inferiority complex, and not some kind of "ancient Normans."
      1. Sirocco 22 January 2020 09: 47 New
        • 5
        • 8
        -3
        Quote: kalibr
        What is the humiliation? In England there was a whole area of ​​Danish law - Denlo

        Good example. If in England they start banging their heads against the wall, do we need to follow this example?
        Quote: kalibr
        Why normal historical phenomena in us cause such a strange reaction.

        For you, this may be normal, but for many this is not the norm, are you sure that this has historically happened? You want to say that this is normal when the "normal historians" say that Russia was uneducated and illiterate? God's affairs are amazing, seeing how today they rewrite history right on their knees and without hiding, many continue to affirm the history and historical facts of the past is the court of last resort)))) No one is surprised by the fact that the Silk Road from East to West was in the same story and not vice versa, the fact that many inventions of technology came from the East to "civilized" Europe and not vice versa. Maybe this Europe has acquired from us its culture and so on?
        1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 10: 46 New
          • 13
          • 2
          +11
          Quote: Sirocco
          You want to say that this is normal when the "normal historians" say that Russia was uneducated and illiterate?

          You probably don’t know, but, at one time, all nations were "uneducated and illiterate."
          To the Great Russian Superethnos, this, of course, does not apply. After all, a brilliant linguist, academician Chudinov has long proved that there are still Russian Cro-Magnons, a cat. came to Europe 40 thousand years ago, were able to read, write and even solve problems in quantum mechanics! laughing
          1. Sirocco 22 January 2020 10: 50 New
            • 6
            • 6
            0
            Quote: HanTengri
            You probably don’t know, but, at one time, all nations were "uneducated and illiterate."

            This is your version, you can immediately see a competent person who knows how to think logically.))))) What can I say, I won’t play chess with you)))))
            1. Astra wild 23 January 2020 15: 46 New
              • 3
              • 1
              +2
              And Khan Tengri so wanted to play with you
        2. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 41 New
          • 6
          • 2
          +4
          Quote: Sirocco
          If in England they start banging their heads against the wall, do we need to follow this example?

          So they did not start and never fought ... It was and was.
        3. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 44 New
          • 8
          • 2
          +6
          Quote: Sirocco
          was Russia uneducated and illiterate? God's affairs are amazing, seeing how today they rewrite history right on their knees and not hide, many continue to affirm the history and historical facts of the past. This is the court of last resort.

          Who exactly? Fomenko can not be called. But others: give the names of works, authors, pages. This statement is about nothing! And who wrote that our ancestors were illiterate? Here was an interesting series of articles about the Slavs E.Vaschenko - look ... You are breaking through the open door.
      2. Astra wild 22 January 2020 20: 01 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        Echidaceous hint
    2. Hantengri 22 January 2020 10: 32 New
      • 11
      • 2
      +9
      Quote: Sirocco
      Honestly, this Norman theory is already tired of me. Let's look at this theory from the other side, maybe the Normans have Russian weapons and armor?

      Tired of it? So conduct a large-scale, objective scientific research and prove that almost all the “carolings” were made in Novgorod, for example, and not on the Rhine. The key word here is "objective", i.e. if you, as a result of the study, find that in Russia blades, for objective reasons, were practically not produced, then, setting aside turbopatriotism, you acknowledge that Russian blades of the X century. in nature, if they existed, then in such non-commodity quantities that they have not reached our time.
      1. Sirocco 22 January 2020 10: 46 New
        • 5
        • 7
        -2
        Quote: HanTengri
        So do large-scale, objective scientific research and prove

        Can I link to your blade research and more? Since you got into an argument, then why did you keep silent about the Silk Road? About writing, education? How do you feel about the historical facts far-fetched, and about the modern change in history? Can you then believe the stories of past years?
        1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 11: 36 New
          • 10
          • 1
          +9
          Quote: Sirocco
          Can I link to your blade research and more?

          I am not a historian and not an archaeologist => I don’t have a lot of special knowledge and skills necessary for conducting such a study and, most importantly, I am aware of this, therefore I trust the conclusions of specialists. But you are a completely different matter! You, in all likelihood, are a specialist of a very wide profile, possessing fundamental knowledge in all spheres of human life. Perhaps you even created the Universal Theory of Everything, which allows you to draw unquestionably correct conclusions on any issues, from the “Occurrence of a secondary maximum density in galaxy clusters” to “The problem of rabbit reproduction in Saudi Arabia”. Therefore, why do not you conduct research on the Russian blades | X - X ||| cc? lol
          1. Sirocco 22 January 2020 11: 43 New
            • 1
            • 11
            -10
            Quote: HanTengri
            I’m neither a historian nor an archaeologist => I don’t have a lot of special knowledge and skills,

            Strange things again, a man who is nobody, and in no way, is trying to teach another everything. You and the Boss are by no means comrades, I look zealously took up for me, the reason for such excitement is off topic? Or did you recognize yourself? Well, as an example, this is what I wrote above, this is about banging your head against a wall, a fact on your face in the form of your Master Trilobite, I look this is the norm in your team.
            PS Why didn’t you say anything about the Silk Road, or is your specialization only Ruriks?
            1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 13: 07 New
              • 8
              • 2
              +6
              I look this is the norm in your team

              normal team, regardless of occupation and country of residence ... yes
              a fact on the face in the form of your Master Trilobite

              the smartest person .... yes
    3. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 11: 29 New
      • 16
      • 2
      +14
      Quote: Sirocco
      Honestly, this Norman theory is tired of me

      Well, imagine another. Such that Rurik was also a Slav and somehow explain the Scandinavian origin of the word "Rus", the Scandinavian genes from the descendants of Rurik and the Scandinavian composition of princely squads in the XNUMXthth centuries. according to archeology, which is replenished every year and confirm the data obtained earlier.
      Quote: Sirocco
      Zadolbali already self-flagellation

      Quote: Sirocco
      How much can you worship the West and humiliate yourself

      In fact, these childish grievances in adult, it would seem, people were saddled. Type "Rurik can not be Russian, because otherwise it is insulting."
      Zadolbali these tales pen that someone in connection with the "Norman theory" speaks of the "inferiority" of the Russian people. The last one to do so at a serious level was Goebbels. He proved him wrong in practice. Since then only wretched minds or trolls have been saying something similar.
      Zadolbali, and really, these stupid complexes of new Russian nationalists. Do you know why I don’t hate Jews or any other nation? Because I do not consider them smarter or better than myself. For the same reason, I am not trying to invent or twist our story. She is already beautiful. And I don’t feel any inferiority complex regarding the Scandinavian origin of Rurik, because, unlike the narrow-minded pseudo-patriots “historians”, I understand that it was not Rurik who created Russia, but Russia created Rurik. He did not raise a wave of Russian statehood, but on the contrary, this wave raised him.
      How much can one humiliate oneself by trying to change their story for the sake of stupid trolls, who, blathering from their hole some abominations about the "inferiority" of the Russian people, then enjoy watching how these "Russians" start running like stung and something to someone to prove something.
      I am absolutely indifferent to what language Rurik (if he really existed) said his first word. If someone puts forward and convincingly substantiates a different version of Rurik's origin besides the “Norman” one, I, like any normal person, will be ready to change my mind on this issue. But something seems to me that this is unlikely ...
      1. Sirocco 22 January 2020 11: 36 New
        • 3
        • 9
        -6
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        . But something seems to me that this is unlikely ...

        Are you so excited then? Did you recognize yourself? A long time ago I did not see such a kipish)))
        1. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 12: 22 New
          • 8
          • 2
          +6
          Quote: Sirocco
          did you recognize yourself?

          In Rurik? To you? In whom or in what should we recognize ourselves?
          Quote: Sirocco
          excited

          By no means.
          This is you "sickened", well you feel humiliated. So I decided to reassure you a little and increase your self-esteem slightly. Well, then you yourself. Repeat for ten months every morning in front of the mirror ten times “The Norman theory is not humiliating for me” and by the spring your life will sparkle with new colors, the oppression of the transferred humiliation will decrease, and it will stop “pecking”.
      2. Astra wild 23 January 2020 15: 51 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        "convincingly justify a different version of the origin of Rurik," and you Fomenko, Chudinov and others?
      3. Ingvar 72 23 January 2020 17: 15 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        and somehow explain the Scandinavian origin of the word "Rus"

        Is it Scandinavian? As far as I know, there are many theories on this subject, and none of them is considered proven. And you took so famously, and put an end to the long-standing dispute of historians. Ay-ah Michael, how unprofessional! laughing
        1. SERGIANA 5 February 2020 11: 13 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Finnish is more likely, although I have met references to the fact that this name was found even among bodriches. The Scandinavians were in close contact with the Slavs, this can be seen even in the Slavic suffixes in their languages ​​(swenska, norsk, etc.) In the "Norman" theory there is something initially wrong, in my inner sense. That is, until I can say. When the chronicle Frelava is called a Scandinavian, since the name is non-Slavic (half of us have non-Slavic names, so what?), It still went nowhere, but when Svyatoslav is called “Sfendisleif”, it's just a paragraph.
  11. bistrov. 22 January 2020 08: 04 New
    • 5
    • 0
    +5
    In our unit, in the officers' canteen, there was a pretty good full-size copy, apparently written by some soldier-artist. The basis for the canvas was an ordinary burlap sewn in a military tailor's workshop. We inherited from the Strategic Missile Division (RSD on 8K63, liquidated in 1968), as well as all its facilities. Coming to lunch, I liked to consider it.
  12. VicktorVR 22 January 2020 08: 23 New
    • 4
    • 1
    +3
    Thanks, very interesting.

    It would also be interesting to read the analysis of horse harness in the picture, it is all different.

    But Popovich in the picture is clearly not a Slav. And the Tatar is not very similar, although they are very different. It looks like the Middle East.
  13. Engineer 22 January 2020 10: 02 New
    • 6
    • 0
    +6
    My expected article, which deals with "fantasy" pictures. Therefore, thanks to the author.
    Once again I was convinced how differently the artistic images are perceived. For the author, Ilya is emphasized peacefully, for me it is emphasized close to the people. Judge for yourself - he has the simplest armor and the simplest and most uncomplicated weapon without any status decorations. The pure peasant hero
    What I disagree with
    This is a typical Scandinavian sword, with a three-part pommel and a crosshair slightly curved towards the point

    I read both Petersen and Kirpichnikov. "Typically Scandinavian swords" does not exist. There are "carolings" - typical swords of the Middle Ages 9-12 centuries, mainly produced in Germany. This point is well understood in many books and articles.
    The pattern on it and on the crosshair is typically Norman

    I recall that the pattern and top of the sword from Foschevataya were also considered typically Scandinavian and the origin of the sword was derived from there. And then everyone knows ...
    Ilya is a horseman, a knight, which means he must have a horseman spear. That is, have a tip ... "wings"

    Judging by Kirpichnikov's typology, "winged" spears in Russia were absent as a class in the 9th-13th centuries. He simply does not fix them. Generally. Second, for example, riders do not have winged copies on the Bayeux tapestry. The infantry, too, by the way, no. That is, this element is not required even in Western Europe.
  14. Boris55 22 January 2020 10: 20 New
    • 0
    • 7
    -7
    We read the "Book of Creation:" ... created His world with three sephirim: Sephar, Sipur and Sefer. "Which corresponds to the Russian view of the world as rule, nav, and reality, which in turn corresponds to the Christian worldview as: In the name of father son and saint spirit, which in turn is consistent with current terminology as matter, information, measure.

    The ancient Egyptian idea imposed on us as: NO, NEF, PAST, SEBEC - is not true since PAST and SEBEC is a measure ....

    So in my opinion, in this picture, the artist conveys to us that the World is a triune.

    ps
    Alyosha Popovich, the son of a priest cannot be from the east. Christianity came to us from Byzantium. Perhaps Vasnitsov specifically admitted non-compliance with the realities, as if to say that it is not important to draw our attention to them, as to the trinity.
  15. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 10: 41 New
    • 11
    • 2
    +9
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, excellent material. hi
    In Vasnetsov’s paintings, generally anachronisms come across regularly. As for this particular one, I would also clearly notice the “steppe” landing of the riders - on short stirrups. Such a landing can only be justified for Alyosha, since he is an equestrian archer, but not for Ilya, who risked flying out of the saddle from his own spear strike, try to swoop him in.
    And I also remembered the childhood:
    Ilya: What the hell is jumping around the field?
    Dobrynya: We must give him the stars!
    Alyosha: No matter how stars give us. And I'll dump in the bushes ...

    The option is a bit censored, but ... in general, understandable.
    smile
    1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 11: 40 New
      • 4
      • 2
      +2
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      As for this particular one, I would also clearly notice the “steppe” landing of the riders - on short stirrups.

      My respect, Michael! hi I was surprised by the lack of spurs, but somehow did not pay attention to the landing.
      1. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 12: 57 New
        • 6
        • 1
        +5
        Good day, Ivan.
        Quote: HanTengri
        I was surprised by the lack of spurs

        But I’m not sure that they should be mandatory. I don’t remember exactly, but in my opinion, spurs in archeology appear only from the XNUMXth century. and disappear in XVI.
        The question is how do we “date” the time for “posing” heroes. Judging by the biographies of the warriors, it is no later than 1223. If by arms, then no earlier than the XNUMXth century. (in the hands of Dobrynia, it seems, the Danish caroling type VII according to Oakeshott). If on armor, then here, it is more about the end of the XIII - the beginning of the XIV centuries.
        By the way, if we accept for truth that Rurik and Rorik of Friesland are one person, then Danish Caroling at Dobrynia can mean only one thing - he is a direct descendant of one of Rurik's associates who came to Ladoga with him. smile
      2. Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 18: 50 New
        • 3
        • 1
        +2
        Quote: HanTengri
        My respect, Michael!

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Good day, Ivan

        I’m sorry, Igor.
        Just now I noticed that I was mistaken, I typed another name. I am ashamed. sad Probably thinking about something when he was typing.
        1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 19: 03 New
          • 3
          • 1
          +2
          Heck! Ahead. I did not have time to express to you my vengeful "fe"! laughing
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Fat
      Fat 23 January 2020 09: 37 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, excellent material. hi
      In Vasnetsov’s paintings, generally anachronisms come across regularly. As for this particular one, I would also clearly notice the “steppe” landing of the riders - on short stirrups. Such a landing can only be justified for Alyosha, since he is an equestrian archer, but not for Ilya, who risked flying out of the saddle from his own spear strike, try to swoop him in.
      And I also remembered the childhood:
      Ilya: What the hell is jumping around the field?
      Dobrynya: We must give him the stars!
      Alyosha: No matter how stars give us. And I'll dump in the bushes ...

      The option is a bit censored, but ... in general, understandable.
      smile

      Note that horses under gray are gray in contrast to the howls themselves. Like not heroic, though not shabby. Watch the Clockwork Horses?
      Logical.
      Reconnaissance Byzantine cataphracts. ..
      Relaxed ...
      Alyosha has muses. tool with you ...
      They are looking for a tavern (tavern). Dobrynya, the most gloomy ...
      Hungover?
      Ilya? "Long ride" (wait) well .. By gestures you can see ...
      Oh yeah ... Either a patrol ... Or a cataphract AWOL)))
  16. Olgovich 22 January 2020 10: 47 New
    • 5
    • 4
    +1
    us you should also know how reliably depicted them certain objects from the same "archeology" on this canvas!

    What for?!
    Absolutely should not. request

    Remarkably this was said in the description of the painting in the Tretyakov Gallery:
    “Having resurrected the grandiose images of the epic defenders of Ancient Russia — Ilya Muromets, Dobrynya Nikitich and Alyosha Popovich — Vasnetsov sought to outline the continuity of the heroic past of the Russian people with its great future. For all the specificity of the images, heroes are perceived as a mythical embodiment of the creative forces of the Russian land. Mighty figures on horses rise like mountains or gigantic trees. Under the hooves of heroic horses, the fragile young growth of the fir-tree and pine is a metaphor for the continuity of generations. Having resorted to a pictorial hyperbole, Vasnetsov endows his heroes with the primordial qualities of a Russian character. Ilya Muromets personifies solidity, wise leisurelyness and reliance on the experience and traditions of the people. Proud fighting spirit and the desire to protect their land are embodied in Dobryna Nikitich. And the image of Alyosha Popovich reflected the poetic, contemplative beginning of the Russian soul, sensitivity to all manifestations of beauty ”

    As Vasnetsov himself wrote:
    We talked about the Repin underwater kingdom, then Vasya showed the letter to Chistyakov. The wise teacher and for distant lands sent advice.

    “Tell him,” he asked me to convey, “what's in his picture no water color sets the tone, and the trend impressions of bylina set the tone for water and everything; water has nothing to do with it. The color and density of water are different, but such a bylina is one ”
    charcoal sketched immediately upon returning from Ryabov: shaggy mighty horses, a mighty trinity of warriors.

    And so it stood before my eyes: hills, open space, heroes. A wonderful childhood dream.


    As for the details, they are the details. The same mace can be called a club (as it is called in the description of the picture), and a morgenstern, and a bazdugan, etc.
  17. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Operator 22 January 2020 13: 01 New
                • 2
                • 15
                -13
                The President and the RF Ministry of Defense have already begun to smear along the wall of all sorts of different "historians" - Russophobes. Want to hang out on their side - then change the site, the benefit on the Internet of this "good" in bulk.

                I would not wait for the restoration of historical truth in Russian school textbooks on the site of the VO administration, but I would start banning portal members for Russophobic comments now.
                1. Catfish 22 January 2020 13: 10 New
                  • 10
                  • 2
                  +8
                  Which site to be on is my business, I’m not asking for your advice. You have not answered any of my questions. The President and the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation have absolutely nothing to do with it, the question was for you, and you push everything to Putin and Shoigu, obviously because, as a matter of fact, there is nothing to say to you.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
  • Trilobite Master 22 January 2020 13: 07 New
    • 9
    • 2
    +7
    Quote: Operator
    In the "History" section of the VO, Tatars, Chukhonsky, Okrainsky, Lyakhsky, Jewish and other "historians" - Russophobes constantly graze.

    That's that. All true Russian patriots sat down on reformatting ru and the chronology of org. They have no time to do nonsense here, they are doing science there. You, by the way, there. yes
  • Zvonarev 22 January 2020 11: 52 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    It is not entirely clear why the author cites Depler’s canvas for comparison. If in order for us to know what the Normans look like, then the choice is clearly unsuccessful. There Normans, by and large, two - the same one that the author chose for comparison, and another in the background raises the cup. But the rest of the inhabitants of Valhalla have big doubts, as they remind the Greeks and Romans. Not to mention the architectural inconsistency and interior. This is not Valhalla, but some kind of bacchanalia.
    1. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 32 New
      • 4
      • 0
      +4
      Quote: Zvonarev
      the same one that the author chose for comparison

      And a lot is not necessary. Why a lot?
  • Undecim 22 January 2020 12: 10 New
    • 8
    • 0
    +8
    In the same way, the mace that hangs at Muromets’s wrist has a completely fantastic look.
    This is when compared with a mace. But this, Vyacheslav Olegovich, is not a mace. This is an ancient weapon called a club, and in Russia it was a flop. And he is depicted very realistically.

    Illustration from the Radziwill Chronicle.
    It is a coarse wooden club (club) of large size and weight with a thickened end, bound with iron or studded with iron rods. Served for arming the poorest warriors.
    1. Undecim 22 January 2020 12: 12 New
      • 9
      • 0
      +9

      Front annalistic vault. The battle on the Listani River, 1444. "And they came to Mordovians on their mouths with sulits and with slings and sabers, and the Cossacks of Ryazan also on their mouths with sulits and with slings and sabers from the other side, and the governors of Grand Duke Vasily Vasilyevich with his by force; and a lot of pawn was gathered on them from flies and axes and with hornbills. And the battle was great and strong on the river Listany, and the beginner defeated the Christian. "
      1. Undecim 22 January 2020 12: 17 New
        • 7
        • 0
        +7

        And Europe was not alien to use the club, even in fencing treatises you can see this noble weapon.
        1. kalibr 22 January 2020 13: 30 New
          • 5
          • 0
          +5
          But at Muromets this is definitely not a flop, because he has all-metal.
          1. Undecim 22 January 2020 14: 04 New
            • 10
            • 0
            +10
            she has all-metal
            The fact that she is of the same color with chain mail does not mean that she is all-metal.
            In addition, Vasnetsov, to give a monumentality to the image, could portray a flop - forged. Hyperbola.
  • Catfish 22 January 2020 12: 29 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    Vyacheslav Olegich, thanks! smile Eh, you’d have to get into the weapons store, you would definitely stay there. drinks
  • Mihaylov 22 January 2020 13: 21 New
    • 8
    • 0
    +8
    On his head is the so-called "helmet with the Deesis" or "Greek cap." And he is known for the only model that is in the Armory of the Moscow Kremlin and it is obvious that it was from him that he was painted. The helmet dates from the XIII-XIV centuries

    Novgorod press of the beginning of the XIV century
    1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 13: 34 New
      • 8
      • 0
      +8
      Hello, Pan! drinks
      Novgorod press of the beginning of the XIV century

      a helmet, by the way, is very reminiscent of a chapel-chapel .... what like on this little soldier, for example. drinks
      1. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 14: 33 New
        • 8
        • 0
        +8
        Hello, yes, it does.
        Add some more Turkish clubs to illustrate


        1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 14: 49 New
          • 6
          • 0
          +6
          Novgorod is generally interesting from the point of view of heraldry. The press itself is understandable. And not only. wink EMNIP, on the Great Seal of Ivan the Terrible, the "national beast" first appears - Medvedev. And it is located in those pictures that represent Perm (on four legs - located “for three hours in a circle”) and Novgorod (on its hind legs in the left corner - located “for eleven hours in a circle”). If I am mistaken - please correct! hi

          Add some more Turkish clubs to illustrate

          photo, it seems - not the Hermitage? what
          I don’t understand, the maces in the first photo are smart tsatskas, after all, or are they completely fighting? drinks
          1. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 15: 04 New
            • 6
            • 0
            +6
            Photo from the Arsenal pavilion in Pushkin.
            All these maces are of course purely ceremonial / ceremonial, they were very common in many armies of the XNUMXthth centuries, especially in Turkish. There are a lot of them in museums, almost in all where weapons are presented, especially the eastern one. I think that they primarily served as a prototype for Vasnetsov.
            I need to see about printing, I did not know.
            1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 15: 12 New
              • 5
              • 0
              +5
              Photo from the Arsenal pavilion in Pushkin.

              Honestly - I have never been in a palace! And now, probably, I won’t break through - because of the abundance of citizens of the Middle Kingdom .. negative A large collection of eastern weapons is still in the Hermitage, but there it is necessary to go in a roundabout way to it - go down from the second to the first in the right place. But there is nobody there! good
              I need to see about printing, I did not know.

              About a month ago I looked through some material, read about it. hi
              1. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 15: 25 New
                • 8
                • 0
                +8
                This is not in the palace, this is a separate pavilion on the territory of the Alexander Park, I think getting there is not difficult right now. It was destroyed during the Second World War, opened in 2016 after restoration, now there is a permanent exhibition “Tsarskoye Selo Arsenal. Imperial weapons collection. " The museum exhibits memorial items of Russian emperors and part of the weapons collection, preserved in the funds of the Tsarskoye Selo Museum-Reserve.



                But he himself was not in the palace for a long time, everything is true - it is very difficult to get there now.
                The eastern hall of the Hermitage is a wonderful place, I really like it
                1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 15: 35 New
                  • 8
                  • 0
                  +8
                  Damn, this is Arsenal! recourse And in that part of the park, the devil knows how many I didn’t walk. In the early 2000s, the tower was still destroyed, I remember for sure. hi hmm .. will have to go! thank! drinks
                  But he himself was not in the palace for a long time, everything is true - it is very difficult to get there now.

                  quiet horror. I mean, loud. Therefore, it is better to go to the Artillery Museum. wink
                  1. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 15: 39 New
                    • 6
                    • 0
                    +6
                    Be sure to go, it was very well restored and the collection is very interesting.
                    1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 15: 41 New
                      • 6
                      • 0
                      +6
                      Be sure to go, it was very well restored and the collection is very interesting.

                      Yes, it is necessary, but first I want to refresh Gatchina. There is now an exhibition about the relationship between Sovereign Pavel Petrovich and Alexander Vasilievich Suvorov! soldier
                    2. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 16: 14 New
                      • 3
                      • 0
                      +3
                      The main thing is to arrive early. And then I last spanked about a kilometer and a half from the car to the entrance. laughing
                      1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 20 New
                        • 4
                        • 0
                        +4
                        The main thing is to arrive early. And then I last spanked about a kilometer and a half from the car to the entrance.

                        By the way, the mannequin on the horse worked well. Even with a beard .... wink I don’t remember such people in museums anymore!
                      2. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 18: 44 New
                        • 4
                        • 0
                        +4
                        With your permission, I’ll add another Russian horseman, and even almost on the topic of the article, only a different period - XVI century.


                        and just a few more photos from there


                      3. Pane Kohanku 23 January 2020 09: 36 New
                        • 4
                        • 1
                        +3
                        and just a few more photos from there

                        if there is such lighting .. and there is no glare from the windows because of their absence ... then this is some kind of holiday for photographing! thank! good
                2. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 17: 47 New
                  • 3
                  • 0
                  +3
                  My respect, dear! hi (Unfortunately, the mobile version does not reflect names). You filed a good idea, thanks!
  • Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 27 New
    • 3
    • 0
    +3
    Novgorod press of the beginning of the XIV century

    By the way, I remembered another picture - from Vyacheslav our Olegovich. drinks warrior on the left. The shield is the same shape as on the seal.

    Cavalry. 1250-1300. Equestrian warrior from Western Russia fully armed. Weapons and armor of a mixed type, developed under the influence of various military traditions that Western Russia actively adopted in that era. The helmet is also different from the typical Russian helmet, as Byzantium and the Balkan countries were different from Russia, while the “grooved” or “keel” shield belongs to the “small Lithuanian paveza” type. The warrior is armed with a spear and darts instead of a bow, which indicates a stronger influence on the armament of the Lithuanian light cavalry than the Golden Horde. His sword was probably imported from Central Europe.
    1. Mihaylov 22 January 2020 16: 33 New
      • 4
      • 0
      +4
      Yes, interesting, I won’t be surprised that this print was also used to create this picture.
      1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 43 New
        • 4
        • 0
        +4
        Yes, interesting, I won’t be surprised that this print was also used to create this picture.

        at least a good match. yes
      2. kalibr 22 January 2020 18: 40 New
        • 5
        • 0
        +5
        Quote: Mihaylov
        Yes, interesting, I won’t be surprised that this print was also used to create this picture.

        Used, but how. There is an impressive list of materials. For every little thing!
  • Operator 22 January 2020 13: 48 New
    • 2
    • 6
    -4
    Quote: Sea Cat
    essentially you have nothing to say

    When was the last time you spoke on the topic of an article? laughing
  • Operator 22 January 2020 14: 10 New
    • 5
    • 9
    -4
    Quote: kalibr
    England had a whole area of ​​Danish law

    And in China, Mongol and Manchu dynasties ruled for centuries, in Egypt - the Hykso and Macedonian, in India - the Aryan and Central Asian, in Britain - the Scandinavian and Frankish, etc. But how do these facts relate to a specific country - Russia?

    The existence of Danish law in the British Isles is known from written sources of the time, the existence of the Scandinavian Rurik at the head of the Russian state is known only from the 17th-century Swedish propaganda, which completely contradicts Russian chronicles and Scandinavian sagas. So why pull an owl on a globe - Russophobia tortured?

    Plus, your primeval illiteracy in the history of Britain, whose indigenous people are still represented by the Celts, but of whom in the first millennium A.D. At first, the Scandinavian tribes of the Angles and Saxons assimilated linguistically and culturally, and then the Scandinavian tribes of the Danes began to compete with them. Therefore, as Britain was the domain of Scandinavian law, it remained so until the conquest of the Franks - immigrants from continental Europe, led by the Norwegian Rollon dynasty.
  • Yura 22 January 2020 15: 08 New
    • 4
    • 0
    +4
    Good article, very. perhaps add a thought that came to mind while reading
    Dobrynya symbolizes Byzantium and the Varangians, Alyosha is the East, from which eastern weapons and the traditions of on-line combat came to us, but Ilya Muromets embodies the unifying force of the Russian people, he stands between the West and the East, as the strongest, most powerful and wise.
    It turns out the picture has a symbolic reflection of history in time - Dobrynya is both older and the first on the canvas, and quite carries pagan, pre-Christian motifs, along with Christian ones. The next Ilya of Muromets, already a saint. The next Alyosha Popovich that even the name speaks for itself. And all this time you have to be prepared to repel the threat. The artist painted a picture of course having knowledge and ideas about the history of his time. One could say a lot on this subject, but this is not my path, yours.
    1. Fishery 22 January 2020 15: 56 New
      • 3
      • 3
      0
      I think you're right, and maybe history, the influence of the Scandinavians, then the east, well, Ilya, he’s just Ilya))) with a fashionable mace)
      1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 09 New
        • 8
        • 0
        +8
        with unfashionable mace

        but with a fashionable brooch! wink
        Let the little tzatzek lay out! wink "Plaques, pendants. Lead-tin alloy, VIII-X century." Museum of Staraya Ladoga, photo of mine, March 2018.
      2. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 10 New
        • 6
        • 0
        +6
        In the same place. Trapezoidal pendants. Bronze, VIII-X century.

        I thought I lost these photos, but no, they remained on the working computer! wink drinks
        1. 3x3zsave 22 January 2020 16: 39 New
          • 2
          • 0
          +2
          Not bad, by the way, it turned out, given that with the lighting there - complete darkness. Literally.
          1. Pane Kohanku 22 January 2020 16: 44 New
            • 5
            • 0
            +5
            Not bad, by the way, it turned out, given that with the lighting there - complete darkness. Literally.

            I’ve now revised the photo - really, it turned out full of seams then, these are the most decent ones. recourse And complete darkness, yes. Somehow we have lighting ... not for a good photo! request
    2. Fat
      Fat 23 January 2020 01: 37 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      Quote: Jura
      The artist painted a picture of course having knowledge and ideas about the history of his time. One could say a lot on this subject, but this is not my path, yours.

      Well, the main popularizer of Russian history then was Karamzin. Well, according to his promise, everything corresponds.
      But is Karamzin right?
      1. Yura 23 January 2020 02: 13 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Quote: Thick
        But is Karamzin right?

        I also have this question, but when it has not been reliably proven otherwise, we have what we have, I completely trust our historians and they are right when they do not accept unproven versions on faith, the conjuncture has the tendency to change, and there is a high probability that tomorrow will be an ordinary trinket that today delights as a new, alluring, warming soul and the only correct word. But there are questions, now I'm trying to read Lyzlov, eh, I would like to know what our historians and people who are interested in him, who visit VO, think about him.
  • Fishery 22 January 2020 15: 55 New
    • 3
    • 2
    +1
    I always believed that Alyosha had a saber and not a sword, the author did not convince here) obviously the sword was not readable there, Ilya’s mace was certainly too heavy and certainly not in proportions. The spear is not a fact about the wings, they were different.
    1. Hantengri 22 January 2020 18: 55 New
      • 5
      • 0
      +5
      Quote: Tonya
      obviously the sword cannot be read there,

      A straight hilt and a symmetrical top are read there, which is more characteristic of the sword.
  • Stormsdruttin 22 January 2020 17: 08 New
    • 1
    • 1
    0
    the crosshair and the top of the sword have some similarities with these details of the sword of Charles the Great “Jauiez” somehow no one paid attention
    More like a saber hilt. The top of the hilt is a stylized bird's head.
  • Dzungar 22 January 2020 19: 08 New
    • 1
    • 5
    -4
    Ilya Muromets - you can’t see the bl-day? ... Dobrynya Nikitich - we’ll do it yesterday .... Alyosha Popovich - I won’t let the mare spoil .. !!!
    1. Astra wild 22 January 2020 20: 35 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Colleague Dzhungar, please do not be offended by the minus, but agree that your joke is not entirely appropriate
  • Senior seaman 22 January 2020 19: 38 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Preserved his relics, which even turned out that he had problems, and the growth was about 182 cm.

    Health problems?
    And then you might think that he took a loan not on income :)))
    1. kalibr 23 January 2020 17: 29 New
      • 1
      • 1
      0
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Health problems?

      Of course, the word is gone ...
  • Ryaruav 22 January 2020 19: 40 New
    • 1
    • 2
    -1
    finally, Vyacheslav Batkovich writes excellent historical articles and not about his communist (not bad) past
  • Astra wild 22 January 2020 20: 31 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    “for some reason, he didn’t tie Dobrynya into this footboard,” probably you weren’t around to predict. V. Oh, I do not maliciously, but note what is: You are well versed in weapons, in knightly armor.
    Naturally, Vasnetsov could see that footman, but you must admit that Dobrynya will not be so brightly viewed in it
    1. kalibr 23 January 2020 07: 48 New
      • 3
      • 0
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild
      Naturally, Vasnetsov could see that footman, but you must admit that Dobrynya will not be so brightly viewed in it

      I think that Vasnetsova was attracted by the pose. "Having presented" this pose to Dobryna, he began to "dance" from her, But what does this pose require? Wide sleeves on the right hand! But chain mail has already been planned for Ilya. How to be And he draws what gives him the opportunity to show exactly the wide hanging sleeve. That's all. And I’m thinking, but what would he “tell” (can), so that it would not be worse? Well, except that the Byzantine armor made of scales, perhaps even touched by gilding, but not bright, so as not to highlight the figure too much. Or on the contrary - a woven velvet caftan, with gilded heads of rivets - a brigandine. And from under her sleeves there is chain-mail tight on the wrists, on the straps.
  • Astra wild 22 January 2020 21: 08 New
    • 7
    • 0
    +7
    Many times I saw a reproduction from this picture, but somehow did not pay. attention to the difference in clothing. And now I thought: the author created a collective image of the defenders of the Russian land. Dobrynya Nikitich, a native of the boyars and, accordingly, weapons and clothes, Ilya Muromets, peasants, and peasants preferred simple and practical clothes, Alyosha Popovich, perhaps a native of the Volga Bulgars, and dressed like that, but they were united by love for the Motherland. If someone wants to attack, then do not be offended
  • BAI
    BAI 22 January 2020 21: 23 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    1.
    however, historians have found that the "real" Ilya of Muromets, for example, was born in the city of Murom in the XII century.

    Absolutely true statement, especially given the fact that Ukraine is actively stretching its version of "Murovlenin."
    2.
    or "Greek cap"

    In a number of epics there is a description that various heroes demolished the head or several heads of the unfortunate Snake Gorynych at once. It is impossible to do this with a fabric cap, and easily with an iron helmet.
    3. Alyosha’s stringed instrument was trimmed to the saddle. A hobby or a necessary part of military equipment?
    And the number of deleted comments completely unexpected for such an article. People found where to catch their tongue
    1. kalibr 23 January 2020 07: 38 New
      • 2
      • 0
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      Alyosha had a stringed instrument truncated to the saddle. A hobby or a necessary part of military equipment?

      This is a harp. He played in the harp.
      1. 3x3zsave 23 January 2020 17: 55 New
        • 1
        • 0
        +1
        Yes, Alyosha is generally handsome! "Death to high school students!"
        1. Korsar4 23 January 2020 19: 10 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          "There is a harp behind your shoulders,
          And at the feet is a scarlet shield,
          On the contrary, his princess
          Putting sits "(c).
  • Fat
    Fat 23 January 2020 01: 49 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    Yeah ... Three cataphracts on watch on spare horses. War horses, armored ones rest ... And then suddenly the battle, and the horses are tired ...
    Thank you for the article. And then somehow more and more about poses and composition. Thanks to you, for the first time I paid attention to equipment. Thank you very much.
    1. Fat
      Fat 23 January 2020 02: 11 New
      • 1
      • 0
      +1
      Just complement it. I really want the same sort of analysis of the equipment of Alexander Nevsky in relation to the picture of the Coron. Well, right ...
      1. kalibr 23 January 2020 07: 39 New
        • 4
        • 0
        +4
        This is in terms of ...
        1. Fat
          Fat 23 January 2020 08: 42 New
          • 1
          • 0
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          This is in terms of ...

          Waiting, (waiting) very much. Thank!
  • Fat
    Fat 23 January 2020 02: 38 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Quote: Thick
    Just complement it. I really want the same kind of analysis of the equipment of Alexander Nevsky in relation to the picture of Pavel Korin. Well, right ...
  • Sentinel-vs 23 January 2020 06: 06 New
    • 1
    • 1
    0
    Quote: BAI
    And the number of deleted comments completely unexpected for such an article. People found where to catch their tongue

    Yes, these are the same Petrosyans with their flat jokes flood in all topics, clogging them.
  • Astra wild 23 January 2020 16: 00 New
    • 2
    • 0
    +2
    Quote: HanTengri
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    As for this particular one, I would also clearly notice the “steppe” landing of the riders - on short stirrups.

    My respect, Michael! hi I was surprised by the lack of spurs, but somehow did not pay attention to the landing.

    Excuse me, but where did spurs come from in the days of Kievan Russ? I may be mistaken, but the spurs appeared later. However, we ask V.O. or a colleague V.N.
    1. Undecim 23 January 2020 16: 18 New
      • 4
      • 0
      +4
      In Russia, spurs began to be used in the 1241th century. During the excavation of Izyaslavl in Volyn, who died in 280 during the Mongol-Tatar invasion, XNUMX spurs were found.
      1. Astra wild 23 January 2020 17: 11 New
        • 3
        • 0
        +3
        thanks for the info
  • Ua3qhp 25 January 2020 20: 15 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Quote: Pan Kohanku
    If I am mistaken - please correct!

    What could I see:
    Total stamps 13.
    1 hour - Seal of the kingdom of Kazan (Griffin darling)
    2- Print Pskov
    3- Seal of the Grand Duchy of Tver
    4-Perm Printing
    5-Seal Bulgarian (interesting)
    6-Seal of Chernihiv
    7-Seal of Novgorod (this is Nizhny Novgorod-deer)
    8-Seal Batyka (quite interesting)
    9-Seal Ugra (Ugra in modern?)
    10-?
    11-Seal of the kingdom of Astrakhan
    12-Seal of Veliky Novgorod
    13-?
    Thanks to Vyacheslav for the article.
    PS
    The color scheme of horses and their gender will be disassembled?
    White is clearly a mare, it can be seen in the eyes. smile
  • Ua3qhp 25 January 2020 20: 18 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    Quote: BAI
    It is impossible to do this with a fabric cap, and easily with an iron helmet.

    In epics sounded "Greek hat" and damask damask 16 pounds if the memory serves.
  • Adam simonoff 29 January 2020 02: 57 New
    • 1
    • 0
    +1
    I also have nothing against the Norman theory, I am against its imposition and dissemination in a perverted form.
  • DDT
    DDT 10 May 2020 13: 23 New
    • 0
    • 0
    0
    Please tell me, are you sure that Vasnetsov was NOT deep in what kind of chain mail did he have, what bow and helmet did he have? He just drew, what did he like? Why are you dear, shoving ideology into art? As my teacher of musical literature ... "Nabucco, this is the pinnacle of the class struggle in Verdi's time" wassat
    Thank you for the article, but you as a historian should probably, IMHO, as they like to say now, pay more attention to historical sources and illustrations, and leave art to art historians.