Vashaki: the leader who accepted the inevitable changes

Vashaki: the leader who accepted the inevitable changes

Shoshone cross the river. Alfred Jacob Miller (Walters Museum of Art)


“My red-skinned brother Winnetu, the leader of the Apaches, and I returned from the guests at the Shoshone. Our friends took us all the way to the Bighorn River, where the lands of the Upsaroks, the Crow Indians began, and with them the Shoshone were on the warpath. Then we continued all the way east to the Bighorn Mountains - Mounts and on to the Black Hills. ”
Karl May. Deserts and Prairies


Native American War. It has always been and will be that the clash of two different civilizations gives rise to conflict, which is primarily associated with cultural shock. Here, for example, how do you like such a funny incident, about which one of my acquaintances told me that she works in India. She once went to work on a cycle rickshaw. And then the traffic jam, everyone stood up, and the worst thing is that an elephant stopped next to them. And ... he began to lighten right there. And it began to plop out onto the pavement, and the driver of the rickshaw took out the plywood (he was experienced) and began to “mistress” with her help to close the spray, but ... anyway, it got on her. Well, there was much more there ...


Indians threatening to attack fur merchant boats (Walters Museum of Art)

Now let's take the USA of the era of development of the Wild West. On the one hand, the Indians, until 1500 engaged in foot, that is, very difficult and unsuccessful, hunting for bison. And there were relatively few of them. But by 1700 they mastered the art of riding, received white dishes from whites, and already in 1800 it was a completely different world where people had meat in abundance and ... their explosive reproduction began. Now the Great Plains have become the habitat of many tribes, which it was the white man’s horse that helped them master.


Chief Washaki (US National Archives)

But the time has come, and a stream of immigrants from Europe surged into America. They paid for the move, they paid for the land, they worked hard in the factories, fought in the army of the northerners, and finally they, yesterday's peasants from France, Italy, Ireland, Poland, Greece, got land there under the law on homesteads. But some "indices", naked dirty savages, interfered with them. They burned their farms, they prevented them from developing gold veins, removed scalps from them. The concept of tolerance at that time was completely absent. The savage was a savage, that he was a man, no one even thought. So it is not surprising that a whole series of “Indian wars” swept through the Wild West, bloody and merciless, but natural and inevitable at that distant time. The Indians considered themselves masters of their land and did not want to change their usual way of life to “white civilization”, and they were in their own right, only people began to understand this only very recently, and in those years the white man’s right dominated the law of everyone else. However, even at that time, there were smart people among the Indians who understood that they would have to change, and for this, first of all, one should stop quarreling with the pale-faced. And one of them was the leader of the Shoshone tribe - Vashaki.


Oriental Shoshone Moccasins, circa 1900 (Museum of Man, San Diego, CA)


Shoshone Moccasins 1860-1880 (The Bath Shoe Museum in Toronto, Ontario, Canada)


Shoshone Moccasins 1895 (The Bath Shoe Museum in Toronto, Ontario, Canada)

First of all, about the Shoshone itself. They called themselves Nyma or Nyva, that is, “people,” they spoke the language of the Uto-Aztec language family, but they did not live in Mexico at all, but in the Great Basin region - the mountainous region where Oregon, Idaho, the western region of Utah are located , most of Nevada and California. It is here that the Big Salt Lake is located, the shores of which have become a refuge for Mormons. Shoshone are not homogeneous in their culture, but are divided into northern, western and eastern. Oriental were the most developed. Their culture was transitional, from the specific culture of the Great Basin, to the culture of the Indians of the Great Plains. The tribes of the eastern Shoshone were quite warlike. In any case, they had two military alliances. The first was called "Yellow Tops." It included young warriors, who were the first to attack the enemy, and the second: "Logs", which included experienced warriors, like the Roman triaries.


Shoshone ceramics, late XNUMXth century (Cleveland Museum of Art)

So Vashaki (c. 1804-1900) was the supreme leader of the eastern Shoshone. His father was from the Bannock tribe, and his mother was a Shoshonka from the vicinity of the Wind River. He spent his childhood among the Flathead Indians (“flat-headed”), who roamed the lands of the modern state of Montana, and only after the death of his father returned to the Shoshone with his mother. Apparently, trying to earn the respect of his fellow tribesmen, who, due to his origin, most likely looked down on him, constantly participated in battles against the Crow and Blackfoot, and gained a reputation as a brave warrior, as evidenced by the arrow scar on his face.


Men's Northern Shoshone Leggings (National Museum of the American Indian, Washington)


The Northern Shoshone parflesh belonged to To-Mo ("Cloudy") (National Museum of the American Indian, Washington)

His past was forgotten, and at the end of the 1840s, Vashak became the supreme leader among the eastern Shoshone. The fact that he was bold is obvious. But he had the wisdom to keep his tribe from participating in the uprising of the rest of the Shoshone, who, in 1863, led by the leaders of Pocatello and the Bear Hunter, opposed the whites and seriously suffered as a result. On the contrary, he tried to make friends with white, especially army officers, and this friendship came in handy when in 1865 their original Sioux-Dakota enemies attacked the Shoshone.


Crow's White Swan Tomahawk. He lived in 1851–1904. Montana, 1890 (National Museum of the American Indian, New York)

The Indians had a difficult life, and most importantly, they constantly had to fight for areas convenient for hunting and grazing horses, and many men died in these skirmishes. So, around 1856, a fierce battle between the Washaki tribe and a large group of Crow Indians occurred precisely due to rivalry over hunting grounds. Interestingly, a white boy named Elijah Wilson, who, by coincidence, lived for two years in the family of the leader Vashaki, witnessed this event. In this battle, he said, killed more than 50 Shoshone warriors and 100 crow.


Shirt of an Indian named Spotted Tail. Tribe of Dakota, 1823–1881 (National Museum of the American Indian, New York)

Another clash took place in March 1866, when the Crow Indians, led by the leader of the Great Shadow, settled down along the Vetra River, and the Vashaki tribe was nearby. Upon learning that the crow was nearby, he sent for negotiations with his wife and warrior, who told the leader of the crow that he was glad to see them, but offered to hunt further to the east, since they were on the Shoshone-owned Wind River.

But the leader of the crow considered (everything was just like in Bernard Schulz’s story “The Error of the Lonely Bison”) that the crow was brave warriors (and, most importantly, there were a lot of them!), And the shoshone were “cowards and dogs”. Therefore, he ordered the death of a warrior-parliamentarian, and with his wife Vashaki told him that they were ready to fight.

A drawing of an Indian named Rain On The Face. Hunkpapa Dakota, approx. 1835–1905 (National Museum of the American Indian, New York)

Shoshonov was indeed smaller than the Crow, so Vashaki sent a messenger to the cannons, the allies of the Shoshone, whose camp was a few miles south. Bannocks joined the Shoshone, attacked the crow camp, and besieged them on the hill. The siege lasted five days, but neither the attackers nor the defenders were able to gain an advantage.


Arrows of the Indians of the Great Basin. California, 1911-1915 (National Museum of the American Indian, New York)

Crow's forces were running out, and Big Shadow decided to challenge the leader of Washaki to a duel to solve the matter by martial arts. At the same time, they persuaded that the valley of the Wind River belongs to the winner, but if he loses the battle, the crow will get the right to leave in peace.


Jute Indian Shirt, circa 1870–1880 (National Museum of the American Indian, New York)

The distance between the tribes was chosen so that no one could help them or place them. And then everything happened as it was shown in the movie “Winnetu is the leader of the Apaches”, where Winnetet had to fight the leader of the Comanches Big Bear as well. Each leader mounted his beloved horse, armed with spears and shields made of leather from the neck of a bison bull, and rushed at each other, and the crow and the Shoshone watched them in silence.


That's how they sorted out the relationship ... Frame from the movie "Sons of the Big Dipper"

In the dust clubs, it was difficult to discern who was winning, but then everyone saw Vashaki returning to his tribe and the Crow leader, spread out on the ground. Moreover, Vashaki was so delighted with the courage of his defeated opponent that he did not scalp him, but cut his heart out and brought it to his camp, planting it on a spear! And then, after the girls-shoshonki danced the scalp dance, he ... ate it to “take” his courage in this way. Well, one of the captured Crow women became his wife. Such were the customs of the Indians of the Great Basin and the prairies at that time!

To be continued ...
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  1. rocket757 20 January 2020 05: 16 New
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    In general, a "civilized" man stepped through his "Indians" a lot where and in different ways.
    1. Maki Avellevich 22 January 2020 21: 05 New
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      Quote: rocket757
      In general, a "civilized" man stepped through his "Indians" a lot where and in different ways.

      the Indians in both America, and especially in Messoamerica, give Gd to everyone, they crossed the tribesmen.
      1. rocket757 22 January 2020 21: 09 New
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        No question, this happened everywhere, even in the same tribes.
        But such a sophisticated destruction, which suited a white, "civilized" man, they could not have.
    2. alexey alexeyev_2 24 January 2020 12: 25 New
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      Actually, you shouldn’t hang all the dogs on the “civilized man.” If you look impartially, the Indians set up a famine for themselves .. Did the Indian beat the bison on a hunt even with a horse but with a bow and arrow. So yourself .. so as not to stretch your legs. then the balance in nature ... And with the appearance of a firearm they fell off the chain .. Eyewitnesses described how they threw carcasses without knowing what to do with them .. Since the meat was heaped .. Well, a couple of seasons of such hunting and that’s all .. Teeth on the shelf .. Hunger is not aunt. It was only then that the settlers got rid of how to get rid of such th lodging .. We started to help them in an initiative to get rid of the feed base .. They took away the remains of bison ...
      1. rocket757 24 January 2020 12: 34 New
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        Quote: alexey alexeyev_2
        Eyewitnesses described how they threw the carcasses without knowing what to do with them.

        Firstly .... secondly .... thirdly ... it quickly ended by tearing off the heads of the most "violent" ones. In any tribe there was someone to think about! So this "task" had to be carried out by "white, civilized"!
        Do you think that the “white civilized” will not erase history? freshly betrayed ....
  2. Same lech 20 January 2020 05: 17 New
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    Hmm what something appetite disappeared after reading the last paragraph ... waiting for the continuation ... only less bloodthirsty.
  3. andrewkor 20 January 2020 05: 41 New
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    Native American √1 of all times and peoples is Goiko Mitic, idol of childhood!
    1. Same lech 20 January 2020 06: 02 New
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      Goiko Mitich, idol of childhood!

      And mine, too ... always played Indians against pale-faced coyotes and jackals.
      1. Slavutich 20 January 2020 06: 37 New
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        Yes, Goiko Mitich is a completely different story.
        1. AK1972 20 January 2020 14: 37 New
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          At Mitich’s wedding, the guests shouted together: “Goyko !!!”
    2. Phil77 20 January 2020 08: 18 New
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      And Pierre Brice? He left his mark, and * the Indian * is also convincing! laughing Good morning to everyone! Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you! I read it before the start of the working day!
      1. kalibr 20 January 2020 10: 40 New
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        Will you and Pierre! All will be...
    3. Freeman 20 January 2020 12: 01 New
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      Quote: andrewkor
      Native American √1 of all times and peoples is Goiko Mitichchildhood idol!


      In America of the 70s, another Indian was widely known - Iron Eye Cody (Iron Eyes Cody; Iron-eyed Cody).
      Widely known for advertising environmental campaigns Keep america beautiful (Keep America beautiful).

      / And before that he played Indians in Hollywood films. /

      In 1974, he even “ordained to the Indians” President Jimmy Carter, who “took” the name Big White Eagle, and as if officially became an Indian.


      Despite the fact that Cody all his life claimed to be a "real" Indian, shortly before his death, reporters found that his real name is Espera Oscar de Corti (Espera Oscar De Corti) and he is a descendant of Sicilian immigrants.

      So, "thanks" to the movie - "Indians" are different. wink
      1. Phil77 20 January 2020 16: 28 New
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        I looked! What can I say? Excellent social advertising. And you know, really very convincing in the role of an Indian.
      2. Maki Avellevich 22 January 2020 21: 07 New
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        Quote: Freeman
        In 1974, he even "ordained to the Indians" President Jimmy Carter, who "took" the name Big White Eagle, and as if officially became an Indian.

        Jimmy Carter was not an adequate president / person. (not of feathers of course)
      3. dokusib 26 January 2020 02: 14 New
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        Yes, on his face it says that he is Italian. There are no Indians with such a snobber.
        1. Freeman 26 January 2020 04: 29 New
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          Quote: dokusib
          Yes, on his face it says that he is Italian. There are no Indians with such a snobber.

          Excuse me, what do you mean by "snobel"? "Eagle profile" with a hump?
          Well, here's a genuine Native American.
          In the picture - Spotted bull--mandan North Dakota Tribe 1900-1910
          / Spotted bull- tribe Mandan ~ North Dakota (1900-1910) /
          (Photo by Edward S. Curtis / Library of Congress / Corbis / VCG via Getty Images)
          1. dokusib 26 January 2020 09: 14 New
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            With a hump then with a hump. But the eagle profile due to some flattening of the cartilaginous part. If you look at the photo in full view, the wings of the nose will surely be wide apart, framing large nostrils in shape close to a circle. In the Mediterranean, the noses are flatter.
  4. Van 16 20 January 2020 06: 44 New
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    Apaches went on the warpath!
    (I don’t remember exactly where))
    1. Stirbjorn 20 January 2020 08: 58 New
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      "A man from the Capuchin Boulevard" From there it seems lol
      1. Svarog51 20 January 2020 10: 23 New
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        There, the Kamanches of Mr. Furst stole. And their leader was Spartak Mishulin. repeat
        1. alebor 20 January 2020 10: 44 New
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          The Comanche leader was Ippolit Matveevich Vorobyaninov.
          1. Svarog51 20 January 2020 11: 26 New
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            "But that's another story." (with)
    2. rich 20 January 2020 21: 47 New
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      Apaches went on the warpath!
      (I don’t remember exactly where))

      From the forest laughing
  5. ukoft 20 January 2020 08: 30 New
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    They adopted horses from a white man, but could not adopt sheep, cows, goats? Yes, and the horses themselves can be eaten well. Milk drink koumiss. But all the same, they were mainly hunter-gatherers.
  6. apro 20 January 2020 08: 30 New
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    The clash of civilization with archaic tribes ... there could not be other results.
  7. hohol95 20 January 2020 08: 43 New
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    But the leader of the Crow considered (everything was just like in Bernard Schulz’s story “The Error of the Lonely Bison”) that the Crow were brave warriors (and, most importantly, there were many of them!), And the Shoshone were “cowards and dogs”.

    A comparison with Schultz's work “The Son of the Navahites” is more suitable.
    “Old man, I'm sorry for you.” I respect old age and I won’t argue with you. But know that you are mistaken, and do not be afraid for me. A man of three hundred lives in the pueblo teva, no more. The day will come when I will lead six hundred warriors against them and win a great victory.
    The foreman stood up, mumbled something under his breath and, without adding a word more, went into his wigwam. He was very old. Father and other warriors thought he fell into childhood. But the time came when I realized that he was a great sage.
    - Ha! How stupid these old people are! - exclaimed my father. - Can any tevah defeat the Navajas!
  8. Stirbjorn 20 January 2020 08: 59 New
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    The article is good and interesting! And pictures too. good I am waiting for the continuation
  9. Catfish 20 January 2020 09: 34 New
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    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich hi , unexpectedly and very interesting.
    I looked here at the photo of Goika Mitic and it became funny, the Indians were not at all the same as Carl May wrote them and took DEF from his books. smile
    1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 12: 48 New
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      I looked here at the photo of Goika Mitic and it became funny, the Indians were not at all the same as Carl May wrote them and took DEF from his books.

      One of the last films, “The Leader of the White Feather,” was generally filmed in collaboration with the descendants of Genghis Khan, and in this film the Mongols were shot as Indians (except, in fact, the White Feather himself)! drinks oh yes, I forgot, the Mongol does not exist ..... wink laughing
      1. Catfish 20 January 2020 13: 19 New
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        Nikolay, hello! hi
        It's like ours, shooting "Sannikov Land", blond wigs were put on Asian ladies and created a new "race". laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 13: 23 New
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          they pulled blond wigs on Asian ladies and created a new "race"
          by the way, Konstantin, very pretty young ladies! wink drinks I agree to be the leader of such a tribe, but with the rights of the Sultan! fellow
          1. Catfish 20 January 2020 13: 24 New
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            One of them is a young man (right), but his eyes also seem to be made up. wink
            1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 13: 27 New
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              One of them is a young man (right), but his eyes also seem to be made up.

              it can be sent to Thailand, for exchange, they love such people there. soldier And use it yourself - thank you! stop hussars hussars, but the measure also needs to be known. no Although I read somewhere that in the guards of the beginning of the 19th century there was a “shameful phenomenon” (moreover, then it was also a criminal offense!), As they say, “bloomed and smelled” .... request
              1. Catfish 20 January 2020 13: 29 New
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                Only not with dragoons, those, according to the assurances of Lieutenant Rzhevsky, used horses for this. laughing
                1. raif 21 January 2020 02: 17 New
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                  fu fu fu, policeman, do not confuse! Lieutenant Rzhevsky was a spawn as a hussar!
                  1. Catfish 21 January 2020 02: 41 New
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                    Well, he was not talking about hussars. Unfortunately, I can’t completely bring the whole conversation between him and Natasha, but there was a certain characteristic of the sexual preferences of dragoons.
                    By the way, Senior Officer-s. soldier
          2. hohol95 20 January 2020 15: 24 New
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            Men ONKILONA -
            All of them were topless, dressed in soft leather pants and shod in light fur collars. Faces, chests, and forearms were tattooed with wavy lines, circles, and dots. A necklace of teeth, apparently wolfish, hung on each neck, in front with one, two or three large bear fangs. Black smooth hair was curled on the crown of a head into a knot into which one, two or three eagle feathers were stuck. The body was muscular, swarthy, faces with little prominent cheekbones, black eyes and straight noses. The two upper middle incisors were painted red, which made the people smile strange - the mouth at the same time seemed to split into two round holes. The leader was distinguished from the rest by a more powerful build and high growth, a necklace made of bear fangs, a red stripe along the forehead and red feathers in the hair. The tribe, obviously, was courageous and represented dangerous enemies, despite the primitiveness of weapons: the spearheads were of transparent stone, the arrowheads of bone; many had a stone hatchet with a wooden handle behind their belts. On the back, besides a quiver of arrows, hung a small leather shield.

            Women -
            The women were almost naked; only a narrow, in the palm of your hand, bandage of dark skin, almost the same color as the swarthy body, went around the hips around the lower abdomen. For young women, the bandage was decorated with embroidery of thin black, yellow and red straps. In addition to this bandage, they wore necklaces of small white, gray, green and reddish stones and the same bracelets on the forearms and wrists. Nudity, as it were, was concealed by a tattoo on the chest, stomach, back, arms, legs and face in the form of fantastic flowers and leaves, wavy lines and circles. Of particular interest was the leader’s young wife, whose tattoo depicted two snakes wrapping rings around her legs, wriggling along her stomach and sides and ending with heads facing each other, between breasts and collarbones; two smaller snakes wrapped their arms around her and ended on both shoulder blades. On a dark-skinned body, these black-blue snakes made a terrible impression.

            But whether you pull the command - Obruchev created 15 clans in the tribe!
            And we must lead the tribe to hunt mammoths and fight with the more primitive VYMPU!
        2. Phil77 20 January 2020 18: 27 New
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          I greet you Konstantin! Regarding the film "Sannikov Land." And you know that there was a certain Boris Gryzlov playing in the episode? Remember this? wink
          1. Catfish 20 January 2020 21: 00 New
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            I don’t remember this, but what he is famous for. request
            1. Phil77 20 January 2020 21: 11 New
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              A joke of humor?!?! laughing Former speaker of the State Duma of the Russian Federation! Not a lot, not a little.
              1. Catfish 20 January 2020 21: 20 New
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                I don’t bother with the names of these clowns. They would go to the bathhouse. drinks
                1. Phil77 20 January 2020 21: 27 New
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                  It doesn’t matter, I decided to refresh my memory and google on the topic of this film, well, I came across this info. It was like this: he was studying then and his classmate offered to earn some extra money in * extras *, so they steamed and went to from "the tank, they took him, but my friend didn’t like it. I see a scene in the restaurant where Dahl and Dvorzhetsky agree on an expedition and in the background, the gentleman in the whiskers, that’s what he is. A movie, however! fellow
  10. Catfish 20 January 2020 09: 45 New
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    A few illustrations.
    INDIANS.

    SETTLERS.

    ARMY.
  11. thinker 20 January 2020 09: 55 New
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    Shoshone ceramics, late XNUMXth century (Cleveland Museum of Art)
    Although the Indians did not know the potter's wheel, the product is clearly not ceramic.
    Type of work: basket weaving
    https://www.clevelandart.org/art/1917.482
    1. kalibr 20 January 2020 10: 44 New
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      All right! That's right: A wicker bowl. Large Pool, Panamine - Shoshone, late 19th century
      Sumac, devil's claw, yucca root, with orange feathery flyworm (woodpecker) feathers; rolled up (2 rods and a bunch of deer grass or a basket of grass)
      Diameter: 21,5 x 48 cm (8 7/16 x 18 7/8 inches.)
      Presented by William Albert Price in memory of Mrs. William Albert Price 1917.482
  12. Undecim 20 January 2020 11: 19 New
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    ... the clash of two different civilizations gives rise to conflict, which is primarily associated with cultural shock.
    And then the traffic jam, everyone stood up, and the worst thing is that an elephant stopped next to them. And ... he began to lighten right there.
    Is this a shock. Your friend should have been taken to the slum area of ​​Dharavi in ​​Mumbai.

    There, on an area of ​​two square kilometers, there are only registered one million (!) People and there are only 1000 primitive toilets. There is a shock!
  13. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 13: 07 New
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    Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks for the article. smile
    Question.
    Indians, before 1500 engaged in foot, that is, very difficult and unsuccessful, hunting for bison.

    Was the Indians described in the hunt only, or was agriculture, that is, settled, cities or their similarities? And if not, how is this explained?
    1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 13: 19 New
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      or there was agriculture, that is, settled, cities or their likeness

      in the south was. In 1540, Coronado occupied the Sivola, a pseudo-city of Indians, later called pueblo, located in Colorado. I must say that the pioneers (including one monk) who had been there before exaggerated the size of the "city", moreover, they said that it was surrounded by seven more cities - smaller ones. Everyone was fascinated by the legend, and that is why this expedition was sent there from Mexico. fellow
      Expedition commander Francis Coronado associates expected a wild frustration from what he saw:
      The “city” on the rock was of such size and appearance that the Spaniards began to curse the lying monk and sneered that another farm in New Spain made a more solid impression. Built of stone and clay on cliff ledges so that the flat roofs of the lower houses were flush with the floor of the upper houses, he could shelter no more than 200 soldiers. The Spaniards did not need much trouble to seize such a “fortress” and drive the Indians out of there. The terrain was high, cold, sandy and almost barren. Indians dressed in cotton or animal skins. No treasures could be expected here, and the “beautiful cities” surrounding the “capital” turned out to be peculiar large houses and villages of local Zuni Indians, which the Spaniards called pueblo (pueblo - a large village or population of a large village). (from the work of the Magidovich) http://discover-history.com/chapter_218.htm#mississipi
      I don’t remember from whose horses the Mustang squad appeared, in the sense from whose squad the horses remained to live a free life - from the squad of Narvaez, Soto or Coronado .... what
      1. Undecim 20 January 2020 14: 16 New
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        I don’t remember from the horses whose squad mustangs came from, in the sense from whose squad the horses remained to live a free life - from the squad of Narvaez, Soto or Coronado ...
        Neither the first, nor the second, nor the third.
        Don Juan de Onyate y Salazar, founder of Santa Fe de Nuevo Mexico, "last conquistador of Spain, 1598.
        1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 14: 25 New
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          Don Juan de Onyate y Salazar, founder of Santa Fe de Nuevo Mexico City, Spain’s last conquistador

          Right? wink I will check! drinks just now it’s not enough time to leaf through the Magidovich’s. But I gave the link, there you can draw. drinks
          1. Undecim 20 January 2020 14: 41 New
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            Magidovichi will not help here. They are not an authority in this case.
            Haines, "Plains Indians," January 1938. I remember exactly what is on the net.
            Bennett, Deb (1998). Conquerors: the roots of New World horsemanship I don’t remember exactly if there are any in the network.
      2. raif 21 January 2020 02: 22 New
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        "another HUTOR in New Spain"? Huge rogue, indulge in childishly on a clear message! wink laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku 21 January 2020 09: 22 New
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          "another HUTOR in New Spain"? Huge rogue, indulge in childishly on a clear message!

          I don’t know how there Magidovich-father was a giant if he was from Odessa, but he and his son made the largest domestic systematization of the history of geographical discoveries. hi
    2. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 13: 30 New
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      Greetings, Michael!
      Vyacheslav Olegovich published a series devoted to the settled cultures of pre-Columbian America located in the Missouri and Mississippi basins.
      1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 13: 45 New
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        Good afternoon, Anton.
        I remember that those cultures disappeared before the arrival of the Europeans, or rather, they disintegrated by themselves. I’m interested in this. Obviously, it is difficult to live without horses in the steppe zone if you do not engage in agriculture. Hunting in the steppe on foot is a troublesome business, and I’m afraid not very productive, but farming, if there is enough water, it’s the other way around. Agriculture involves sedentary, which means cities and all that. However, we know the culture of the prairie Indians in the XVIII - XIX centuries. exclusively as a nomad. And the question is whether they were exclusively nomad hunters before the Europeans arrived or, living in the steppe, still engaged in agriculture. In the latter case, it turns out that the domestication of horses led them to move from a sedentary lifestyle to a nomadic ... Examples when nomads settle on earth are known in abundance. But in the opposite direction ... I would like to understand.
        1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 13: 56 New
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          In the latter case, it turns out that the domestication of horses led them to move from a sedentary lifestyle to a nomadic ... Examples when nomads settle on earth are known in abundance.

          all nonsense and lies, there were no nomads! They were part of the great Native American super-duper ethnicity. fellow
        2. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 18: 34 New
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          However, we know the culture of the prairie Indians in the XVIII - XIX centuries. exclusively as a nomad.
          And here the question arises: was it at all, before the secondary ("indigenous") domestication of the horse?
          1. kalibr 20 January 2020 18: 39 New
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            Quote: 3x3zsave
            But was it at all, before the secondary ("aboriginal") domestication of the horse?

            Only on the outskirts of the prairies! How do you cross them on foot?
            1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 18: 47 New
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              Exactly! Utah is still not a very cozy place, I imagine "what kind of weather stood" there during the medieval climatic optimum! For the "big salt lakes" for a couple of centuries are not formed.
          2. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 18: 53 New
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            Some kind was, of course. It was art, mythology, religion, traditions. The question that interests me is whether domestication of a horse has benefited from this culture or if a rollback has nevertheless occurred ...
            1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 19: 06 New
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              did horse domestication benefit this crop
              Difficult question. I will answer in Odessa.
              Did the Carthaginians benefit from domestication of the African elephant subspecies?
              1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 19: 47 New
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                "There is no reception against Rome" smile
                Well, at least they could fertilize their fields for some time, so probably yes. smile
                1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 21: 24 New
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                  Yes, there is a reception! Moreover, the forerunners of Carthage, the Phoenicians realized it much earlier. "You own the sea - you own the world" Still has not lost relevance.
              2. Engineer 20 January 2020 19: 57 New
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                Did the Carthaginians benefit from domestication of the African elephant subspecies?

                Atiliy Regul believes that yes and calls for African plague for the entire squad of proboscis
                1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 20: 35 New
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                  It seems to me that Regulu "tapped the turnips", first of all, the Numidian cavalry (which, in turn, is a paleoclimatic endemic, like the local elephants)
                  Thus, "elephant already", in the interpretation of Marc Atilius - "children's excuse."
                  1. Engineer 20 January 2020 20: 57 New
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                    According to Polybius, elephants, elephants and cavalry (collective name). And Polybius is the most authoritative.
        3. Engineer 20 January 2020 19: 54 New
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          You have touched on a very complicated topic.
          Here is my summary of what I read in Guns, germs and steel.
          Initial farming north of Mexico was significantly less productive than in Eurasia. The reason is the relatively small number of crops. Everything was limited to maize and beans. I didn’t remember whether there was a turkey in that region, but in any case it didn’t add much.
          Just before the Europeans arrived from Mesquica to the north, the sedentary tribes received a crushing blow - smallpox reached them before the Spaniards and entire tribal groups perished without a trace. Nomadic tribes, due to their smaller compactness, should have suffered less.
          The domestication of the horse allowed the Indians to master the continent’s most productive food resource — millions of herds of bison. Thus, nomadic tribes gained an advantage over the settled. On my own, I will add that nomads almost always surpass farmers militarily with a comparable number.
          Nevertheless, even in the 18-19 centuries, the traditions of agriculture remained in considerable numbers. Pueblo were predominantly sedentary farmers, and Navajos, although predominantly nomadic, but with sufficiently developed agricultural skills.
          1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 21: 37 New
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            millionth herds of bison
            Denis! Yes, this was not in the 14th century! Just the climate did not allow.
            1. Engineer 20 January 2020 21: 43 New
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              Anton, why in the 14th? Secondary domestication of a horse by Indians is the 17th century.
              1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 21: 58 New
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                Because, the Small Ice Age could not be limited only to the western part of the Eurasian continent. This is a planetary phenomenon that has influenced the mitigation of the subcontinental climate of the central regions of North America.
                The appearance of horses is an anthropogenic factor. The emergence of endemic cultures on this shaky basis is a coincidence.
                1. Engineer 20 January 2020 22: 15 New
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                  Let's be clear. Tell me where you disagree. Small ice age, he is also in America ice age. Glaciers are growing. The climate in the northern regions is harsh to indecent. The line of forests is shifting south. The productivity of this zone is declining. Arid zones are subject to more intense moisture. Semideserts turn into steppes. the productivity of this zone is increasing.
                  The small ice age could be detrimental to agriculture. But we seem to be considering exactly the bison. What problems could this create for them? I am not strong in the subject, but as far as I remember, the Clovis Neolithic culture and the preceding era were there. Just glacial (maybe not quite glacial, but rather harsh) So, the productivity of the landscape was then highest and the megafauna proof. I remind you that a bison that easily tolerates cold freely crosses with a bison and, in general, all modern bison are bison. I think the bison didn't care in the cold. And as the modern optimum shows, the heat also does not care.
                  1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 22: 35 New
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                    Feed base, Denis! The semi-deserts became prairies, sirech, and the steppe zone. And this is only 50 years old! What has become the "Great Famine" in Europe has turned into a huge quantitative leap in the development of flora and fauna.
                    1. Engineer 20 January 2020 22: 41 New
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                      Semideserts become prairies

                      And I say:
                      Semideserts turn into steppes. the productivity of this zone is increasing.

                      Then what is the disagreement? It turns out In the 17th century, the very notorious millionth herds of bison could already have been. If the mustangs just at that time from a population of a couple of dozen horses of Hernando Soto multiplied to many thousands (tens of thousands), then for ungulates there really was a paradise.
                      1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 22: 54 New
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                        OK. I agree. Guilty, I did not understand the promise. hi
                        Simply, macrohistory, such a thing, few people are interested. However, like microhistory. Hence the misunderstanding of the interlocutor.
                      2. Engineer 20 January 2020 22: 56 New
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                        I don’t even know such words, macrohistory and microhistory laughing
                        But seriously, did they read Damon Jared?
                      3. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 23: 04 New
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                        Read. Diagonally. Not impressed, to be honest. Now, I understand why.
                      4. Engineer 20 January 2020 23: 11 New
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                        I believe that I gave a very good kick to historical science. It works at a level higher than the notorious Gumilev (civilization instead of ethnic groups), but without the creation of artificial constructs (passionarity). Perhaps the most significant and debated “historical” book in the last 30–40 years. We are not very popular. The English-speaking community is still well-known.
                      5. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 23: 20 New
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                        Ideas are undoubtedly good. It is a pity only, by the time of reading, I reached a lot with my own mind. The presentation is a complete nuisance, however, as I understand it, within the framework of the Western popularization of historical science.
                      6. Engineer 20 January 2020 23: 23 New
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                        Yes, reading in English was sometimes almost unbearable. Just from the point of view of popularization and ease of the syllable, it is far from Western standards)
                      7. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 23: 31 New
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                        Yes, reading in English was sometimes almost unbearable.
                        Try to read Remarque in German. crying laughing
              2. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 23: 38 New
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                I don’t even know such words, macrohistory and microhistory

                Oh, just do not be discouraged. Gopnik, punk and miserable are my role in this microcosm. laughing
      2. Liam 20 January 2020 23: 13 New
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        Quote: Engineer
        Glaciers are growing. The climate in the northern regions is harsh to indecent. The line of forests is shifting south. The productivity of this zone is declining. Arid zones are subject to more intense moisture.

        In general, the opposite is true. During the ice ages, humidification decreases much. Low temperatures interfere with intensive evaporation and the atmosphere becomes “dry.” Plus, huge masses of water turn into ice and do not participate in the process.
        1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 23: 53 New
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          Actually, everything is correct. Denis correctly noted the phenomena accompanying small ice ages
          1. Liam 21 January 2020 00: 15 New
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            Meteorologists disagree with him.
        2. Engineer 21 January 2020 09: 42 New
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          Maybe I'm wrong. I judge primitively from ignorance of the subject. Icing means climatic zones shifting from north to south. If you're right, glaciers must be accompanied growth deserts due to global moisture reduction. What then is biomass? It should fall, and in all zones: in the boreal due to cooling, in the southern due to desertification. So?
          1. Liam 21 January 2020 10: 09 New
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            So.
    3. voyaka uh 22 January 2020 18: 49 New
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      "The small ice age could not be limited only to the western part of the Eurasian continent" ///
      ---
      Could. The Gulf Stream temporarily ceased to reach Europe. Presumably due to the breakthrough of the huge glacial lake in Canada in the Atlantic.
      But it affected the climate of America itself less (although this has not been investigated).
      1. Liam 22 January 2020 20: 17 New
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        That's right. MLP touched almost exclusively only Europe
  • Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 21: 51 New
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    Thank you.
    In general, the picture is clarified for me at a primitive level. In the north, in the forests, the Indians both remained hunters and gatherers during the Vikings, and remained. In the central zone (the current USA) there was a powerful agricultural culture, which, shortly before the arrival of the Europeans, ate itself and disintegrated. They could not seriously engage in cattle breeding for lack of horses, therefore, when the earth was exhausted, the "end of the world" came. The survivors rolled back to their primitive state and eked out a miserable existence "in the middle of nothing."
    In the south, they both engaged in agriculture and continued to do it after the arrival of Europeans.
    The appearance of horses among the Indians affected only those unfortunates who survived after the global "end of the world."
    Conclusion: the horse is the engine of progress. Where it was, people inevitably developed, where it was not, development stopped and even periodically rolled back. Moose and llamas are not suitable as horses. I will treat horses with bоbest regards. Thank you, guest. smile
    1. Engineer 20 January 2020 22: 01 New
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      The appearance of horses among the Indians affected only those unfortunates who survived after the global "end of the world."

      It was still harder. Just as agricultural crops were bending in the territory of the present USA, Apaches arrived on the prairie from Canada or even Alaska. It is they, and not the descendants of the former farmers, who are the main beneficiaries of the domestication of the horse. It turns out that the Apaches did not experience any particular crisis, otherwise they would not have stayed here and went further south. And then with horses they turned around with might and main.
    2. kalibr 20 January 2020 22: 01 New
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      That is how it was!
      1. voyaka uh 22 January 2020 18: 51 New
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        Thank you, the article is very interesting. good
  • kalibr 20 January 2020 13: 45 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    How much were the described Indians engaged in hunting, or was there agriculture, that is, settledness, cities, or their similarities? And if not, how is this explained?

    There was agriculture and cities, and very large ones. On the shores of the Mississippi. Then ... then everything died and people switched to primitive gathering and hunting. Then horses appeared and once primitive tribes became nomads. How is it explained? Disaster, environmental and demographic.
    1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 13: 48 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      There was agriculture and cities, and very large ones.

      I remember the cycle of your articles on this subject. Above is my comment to Anton (just posted), where I explain what surprises me. smile
      1. Pane Kohanku 20 January 2020 17: 16 New
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        where I explain what surprises me.

        Want a joke and surprise? wink Relatives were at the weekend in your small homeland. We walked through the woods - we found six chanterelles .... wink How do you like this winter, Mikhail? drinks
        1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 18: 32 New
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          Quote: Pan Kohanku
          How do you like this winter

          Do not provoke me, Nikolai. If I answer honestly - banned nafig and do it right. am
          1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 18: 39 New
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            Winter is like winter. It has already happened. Pushkin described.
            1. Trilobite Master 20 January 2020 19: 51 New
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              Ah, what a loss - winter has disappeared.
              But do not chase her north.

              Only at Wiesbor, she disappeared in April. And with us in November.
              1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 20: 39 New
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                Well, FIG knows. I don’t miss the snow. Absolutely. Either getting old, or in childhood I had enough of it.
                1. Korsar4 20 January 2020 20: 48 New
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                  For a car owner, European winter is not bad.

                  And what's next - depends on further months.
                  1. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 20: 56 New
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                    For a car owner, European winter is like a slow vivisection of a pet in front of the whole family!
                    1. Korsar4 20 January 2020 21: 01 New
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                      Why? Missing physical exercises for raking snowdrifts?
                    2. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 21: 08 New
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                      No! 90 freeze-freeze cycles in four months! Not every amoeba can stand it. What can we say about your favorite "bucket"!
            2. Korsar4 20 January 2020 20: 46 New
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              But the fairy tale "12 months" was realized.

              But, seriously, the consequences threaten to be unpredictable, and quite unpleasant.
              1. Catfish 20 January 2020 21: 10 New
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                Sergey, what’s unpleasant?
                1. Korsar4 20 January 2020 21: 14 New
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                  If there is little moisture, but until the snow accumulates, there is a risk of drought and forest fires.

                  But this, of course, depends on a lot.
                  Forecasts are a thankless task.
                  1. Catfish 20 January 2020 21: 23 New
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                    Yes, it seems that in our country everybody burns in almost all areas, much further. It will be worse if severe frosts strike, then in winter tryndets, so, at least, old-timers say here.
                  2. Korsar4 20 January 2020 21: 35 New
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                    There is much more.

                    And, quite rightly, much has begun to grow. And severe frost can be fatal.
                  3. 3x3zsave 20 January 2020 22: 18 New
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                    As far as I can remember, in the Central Non-Black Earth region always something fatally burns in the summer. In 81-82gg. trains from Moscow to Orekhovo-Zuevo and Aleksandrov were canceled for a couple of days due to smoke.
                  4. Korsar4 20 January 2020 23: 02 New
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                    Peat fires in Meshchera. But especially remembered for the relatively recent time in 1972 and 2010.
  • Pacifist with AK 21 January 2020 19: 41 New
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    Quote: andrewkor
    Native American √1 of all times and peoples is Goiko Mitic, idol of childhood!

    Yes, as I understand now, according to the degree of children's adoration of the Big Serpent, DiCaprio, Stallone, Schwarzenegger and others nervously smoke on the sidelines))))))) I remember when a schoolboy left the cinema, it felt like he was in a different reality! By the way, he is now good ....
    1. kalibr 21 January 2020 20: 47 New
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      You found a good photo. Thanks!
      1. Pacifist with AK 21 January 2020 23: 05 New
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        You are welcome! Thanks for the interesting professional article ...
  • mvbmvbmvb 23 January 2020 14: 59 New
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    In general, he showed tolerance, i.e. traitor to the interests of indigenous people.
  • alexey alexeyev_2 24 January 2020 11: 37 New
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    They themselves are to blame .. The problem of emigration was left to chance .. And here is the result .. However, this problem has become a problem for the whole world ...
  • Pavel Fedorov 19 March 2020 15: 08 New
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    AND WHAT ON THE ADVERTISING DIANETICS, PRIMARY DEMONS AND ENEMIES OF RUSSIA ON THE SITE ?? NEW TRENDS, SO ??