Military Review

187 object

64



“Object 187” - due to its closeness, this tank is one of the most mysterious combat vehicles produced by Soviet industry. Reliable information on the car on the web is practically absent. Those few publications that are available are guilty of speculation, conjecture, and overt errors. The photos offered are the first publicly available images of this tank on the Internet. They captured a model of the 6th experimental (and last) model of the machine. The model was executed by the employees of UKBTM Yuri Panfilov and Vladimir Usov in M1 / ​​10 for presentation to the ordering office as a visual illustration when closing one of the stages of design and development work. Work on the model took 2 months, and the "modelers" worked on its production mainly at off-hours, sometimes lingering after the main work until late at night. Currently, this model is still owned by UKBTM, while the issue of its transfer to storage and exhibit at the Uralvagonzavod armored vehicles museum is being decided.

Work on the tank "Object 187" led Uralsk KB transport engineering in the framework of the ROC theme "Improving T-72B." The theme “Improving T-72B” was set by the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR on 19 June 1986. The work on the 187 ob went almost in parallel with the work on the tank “Object 188” - the future T-90 (with some advance of the latter) until the middle of the 90-ies of the XX century. Unlike obn.188, it was entirely initiative development of KB. At that time, the Ural KB was still able to afford such “liberties”, naturally, relying on financial support from UVZ as a potential production plant. Both cars - ob.187 and ob.188 - evolved in the direction of further development of the tank type T-72. However, unlike Ob.188, when working on the 187, the design team headed by V.I. Potkin laid a deeper change in the design of the machine compared to the original T-72B design. The direct supervisor of the tank work was the deputy chief designer of the design bureau, A.S. Schelgachev. A radical decision was the rejection of the “revolutionary” design of the T-60 case imposed on the 64’s Tagil design bureau in the end. The layout of the machine has undergone a slight decompression, which positively affected both ergonomics and protection of the VLD enclosure. Due to the elongation of the nose, the driver’s location remained deep inside the hull, as a result of which the shafts of the observation devices began to go out through the hull roof, and not directly through the VLD, like on the T-64 and its genetic heirs - the notorious weakened “neckline” in the middle disappeared VLD. The same decision made it possible to arrange reservations at more rational inclination angles to counteract modern BPS.

187 object


The machines were installed tower new design - in contrast to the traditional casting, its design was made of welded sheet steel of medium hardness. The design and production technology of such towers was developed jointly by the Research Institute of Steel, UKBTM and Uralvagonzavod. At that time, work was almost simultaneously carried out on welded towers for UKBTM (ob.187 and 188) and for HKBT (T-80UD). Tower 187 obscured the most impressive dimensions, especially in the stern. A major contribution to the development of towers for Tagil machines and their protection was made by Yu.N. Kondratyev.

The “iron” armor of the tank was complemented by a new complex of dynamic protection - the prototype of the current complex of the universal remote control "Relic". According to some, not quite reliable data, the protection complex ob.187 had the name “Malachite”. The protection scheme was complemented by the lattice screens and the “Curtain” CEM with the OTLU and PU of the 902A system.



The main armament of the tank was the 125-mm smoothbore gun of increased ballistics 2A66 (D-91T), developed in Sverdlovsk at the “Plant No.9” - in the famous Petrovsky artillery design bureau. Together with the gun, a new armored-piercing-sifting projectile 3BM-39 was developed, the OCR “Anker” cipher with an elongation factor of more than 20. It was a uranium OBPS monoblock with a new separable pallet. WU of this BPS consisted of caliber and light composite sabot coils; the latter had a * -shaped section. At the same time, the plumage was made of light alloys and with a span several times smaller than the caliber. Work on a new shot led THEM. The bulk of the testing of the new gun and the shot was carried out at the NTIIM test site. The new gun externally differed by the presence of the muzzle brake. DT had a single-chamber design of reduced efficiency and served more to divert gases from the line of sight of the guided missile, and not to relieve recoil forces. At the same time, the upgraded 2А46М (D-81ТМ) gun was installed on some samples during operation.

At the time of development, the 187 was equipped with the most advanced SLA in the world - something similar on the tanks of armies of potential enemies began to appear only at the end of the 1990s. The LMS was based on the elements 1А45. The great merits in the adaptation of this complex to obn. 187 and ob.xnumx belong to Yu. N. Neugebauer and VM Bystritsky. One of the innovations introduced for the first time in the domestic tank building industry was the use of micro connectors in control circuits, which significantly reduced the volume and weight of cable routes. The credit for this also belongs to Yuri Neugebauer.

On prototypes of the car were tested several types of power plants and transmissions, including GTE. During the tests, the Chelyabinsk H-shaped monoblock А-85-2 with the power 1200 hp was recognized as the most promising SU. Due to the overall features of the engine in the MTO, it was located in the longitudinal pattern (as there used to be B-2 on T-34). Among other things, this location simplified its docking with the GOP. Initially, exhaust pipes obn.xnumx with X-shaped were positioned side by side, later the exhaust along the boards along the fenders was taken out of the stern. MTO works on 187 were conducted by E. B. Babylon, O. A. Curax, Kharlov V. I., Ivanov Yu.I. The car used a new chassis with a parallel RMS and a metal treadmill. If we compare a caterpillar ob.187 with a caterpillar ob.187, then the first thing that attracts attention is the shape and placement of the lugs - if you mentally circle the lugs with one line, you get an oval (on T-188 / -80 - a rectangle, on BMPT - trapezium). The comb is solid (on the T-90 / -80 is "brace"). The links of the track are cast with the use of subsequent machining, which, of course, is a more technological and economical way compared to the stamping of the links T-90, T-64 and T-80. Vane hydraulic shock absorbers were installed on 90 and 1 rollers (early samples) and on 6, 1 and 2 rollers (samples №6 and №5). The dynamic course of the road wheels was significantly increased.

Machines were built in pairs in three series. Each series was significantly different from the previous one, clearly demonstrating the evolution of the type and direction of phased testing of assemblies, mechanisms, units and systems. Inside each series of cars also had differences, but less significant.

The prototypes No. 1 and No. 2, with the possible exception of the hull, were closest to the appearance of the future T-90. The modified Chelyabinsk V-type diesel engine B-1MS hp with power 84 was used as a power plant on №840. This power plant in the subsequent almost completely migrated to the ob.188. At the end of the test cycle, Sample No. 1 underwent disassembly and defecation, after which its body was used in the manufacture of sample No. 3. Sample No. 2 was equipped with the already 1000-strong V-type turbocharged diesel engine KD-34 (B-85), developed in Barnaul. In this form, the machine successfully passed a large cycle of sea trials in Turkmenistan, having withstood the high temperature and dustiness of the air. Some time later, after returning to Nizhny Tagil, the car underwent additional equipment, after which it was shot at the NTIIMa test site (Positel). The results of the real impact of modern anti-tank weapons showed outstanding results in terms of protection. The shot machine sample was disposed of.

The prototype №3 was originally intended for a variety of "barbaric" experiments related to the possibility of destruction of the structure, and for this reason was never fully complete. Unlike samples No. 1 and No. 2, which had a cast tower classical for the T-72 type, sample No. 3 had a new design tower - from rolled armor plates 40 mm thick, connected to each other in welding. Geometrically, the Sample Tower No. 3 very closely resembles the modern welded turrets of the T-90C, T-90CA and T-90А tanks, which are the last of their design and carry on their constructive genealogy. Significant external differences of the tower of sample No.3 from the already welded welded towers on T-90 are the cutting form of armor plates, welded joints, the round discharge hatch (it is oval on T-90), the presence of the FVU tower in the left aft of the tower roof (on the T-90, as on the T-72, the PSU is located in the body of the machine). On samples No.1, No.2 and No.3, the hull is made according to the classical scheme of the Soviet tank, but with the difference that its nose was extended, and WLD was given an even greater angle of inclination. The driver's seat at the same time as it moved aside deeper into the body. Inspection devices in the number of 3-x pieces were mounted in the manhole cover. These events made it possible to get rid of all the hotly “beloved” Achilles heel in the form of a weakened zone in the upper central part of the VLD of the hull of T-64, T-72 and T-80 machines. As an experiment on the prototype No. 3, a native MTO with CD-34 was cut out and MTO T-80U was implanted with GTD-1250. At the same time, an additional hydraulic shock absorber was installed on the 5 th track roller. In this form, the car passed the tests at the stand in Nizhny Tagil and later rolled on the armored troop-launch vehicle in Kubinka near Moscow. Sample No. 3 also passed complex PAZ tests at the nuclear center in Arzamas. The installation of the turbine on sample No. XXUMX was rather a forced step, an attempt at survival in the current political situation at that time, and pursued two goals. The goal of 3 is to knock out the trump cards from the “turbine” lobby. Show that Tagil also has an almost finished machine with the then popular GTE. Moreover, the machine is structurally more perfect, perfect in everything, well, except perhaps for the MTO and its control system identical to T-1U (made according to the officially transferred Omsk KD). The goal of 80 is to show fans of the gas turbine SU the advantages of new high-power diesel engines, since Not only tests, but already theoretical calculations showed a clear loss of the turbine SU in many ways.

Sample No. 4 had a case similar to the case of sample No. 3 before it was redrawn into a “turbinnik”. The shape and design of the welded tower was changed, its dimensions increased in the midsection and aft. The meteorological sensor for entering the firing conditions, installed in the aft part of the tower, is visually distinct from the usual TWO modern T-90. The basis of the SU was the new X-shaped Chelyabinsk A-85-2 engine with 1200 horsepower. The fan cooling system, traditional for the Nizhny Tagil structures, already had two centrifugal fans that were shifted from the center of the stern to the right and left, respectively. The exhaust pipes of the diesel engine were positioned side by side with a turn along the fender and the discharge of gases to the stern down. At the same time, the significantly elongated path promoted good cooling of exhaust gases, effectively dissipating heat, thereby reducing thermal visibility to the level of the general background. Compared with model No. 3, the position of the APU on the right fender track has changed. The changes also affected the undercarriage - the traditional sloth with “windows” was replaced with a “continuous” one - without openings and openings. The complex of built-in dynamic protection “Contact-V”, mounted on samples from №1 to №3, was replaced by a new design. The DZ extinguishing panels on the VLD were made of fairly massive titanium plates. Subsequently, when transferring the machine to 38 NIII MO in Kubinka, these panels were replaced with an 30-mm steel sheet with milled grooves imitating the missing panels to prevent their “accidental” loss. This ersatz design was fastened to the VLD enclosure with four bolts.

The prototypes No.5 and No.6 underwent the most significant changes, becoming the most advanced machines of this type. The nose of the hull has increased in size and changed shape. If the noses of the T-72 and the early samples about the 187 resembled a chisel, the nose on the samples No. XXUMX and No. XXUMX acquired a tooth-like shape. The length of the "bare" case (excluding the fenced shelves) was 7,2 m, width (similar) - 2,17 m. Inspection devices from the mechvod hatch are moved for him towards the tower. Again, the welded tower has grown in size. Its overall width, excluding DZ, was 3,12 m. The protection of the side projections of the tower was increased very seriously. The striking exterior distinctive feature of the No. 5 and No. 6 sample towers is an extremely wide feed - the widest of all welded towers designed in the Soviet Union. On these machines, as well as on sample No. 4, a new DZ complex was installed, however, in comparison with the Quartet, on the fifth and sixth vehicles, the extinguishing panels were made not of titanium, but of armor steel. The design of DZ containers installed in the frontal part and on the cheekbones of the tower was also changed. If on the Contact-V complex, the installation of active elements occurs through narrow covers in the ends of the blocks, then in this case the entire upper surface of the block itself was one large removable cover. When unscrewing the 4 bolts, we got easy access to installing / replacing elements both in the upper part of the block and in the lower part. The aft part of the tower was shielded by impressive aluminum spares. The side and aft projections of the hull were shielded with lattice screens made according to the Research and Development Institute of Steel from an armor plate 4 mm thick and installed on top of the traditional rubber-fabric screen. Considering that when installing the screens, the railway gauge was not observed, in the transport position they were completely dismantled. Both cars were equipped with X-models A-85-2, but differed by the type of transmission. On the sample number XXUMX transmission was traditional - mechanical, while the sample number XXUMX already had GOP. A large area of ​​radiators required for effective cooling a larger volume of air passage. To this end, at the insistence of O.A. Curaxes four windows of the grids over the radiator (sample No. XXUMX) were combined into two larger sizes (samples No. XXUMX and No. XXUMX). To ensure the movement under OPVT and save mass, such large covers of the input grids of the cooling system are not made of metal, as, say, on T-72 or T-90, but from rubberized fabric. Because of the differences in transmissions on the sample No. 5, the left latticed window instead of the strictly rectangular shape received a cutout under the filler cap, which can probably serve as the only external difference between these samples. In their final appearance, these machines have another noticeable difference: on the “five” there are installed rollers of a “new” type, with a vamping shape similar to the rollers of the second prototype BMPT (rev.199K), however, during operation and testing, the set of rollers could be different .

Ural KB made great efforts in a fruitless attempt to put this wonderful machine into service with the Soviet Army. However, despite successful tests and obviously high combat and technical potential, the machine was not adopted by the Defense Ministry. Instead, customers from the Ministry of Defense once again chose half-measures and concentrated their attention on finishing work on the 188 - symbiosis of the T-72B case with part of the X.UMNX systems. Once again, almost ready for the series and a very promising machine gave way to a simpler and cheaper series. In a slightly modified version repeated история with the prevention of a series of such remarkable for its time machines, as ob.167М and ob.172М-2М (-3М).



Currently, 4 machines are still alive: prototypes No.3, No.4, No.5 and No.6. All of them are at the disposal of the Cuban 38 Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and represent a very sad sight. Machines are dismantled, aluminum boxes of spare parts have been stolen by scrap metal workers, and even a titanium roof of MTO has been stolen from the “turbinnik”! At the insistent requests of the Uralvagonzavod museum for the transfer of at least one tank of xNUMX for restoration and subsequent demonstration in the UVZ museum complex, the GABTU invariably refuses and refers to secrecy. However, according to some data, currently Kubinka still plans to carry out car repairs with their subsequent open demonstration.

Apparently, it should be added to the above that according to the ideas of his Chief Designer - Vladimir Ivanovich Potkin - ob.187 was to become the basis for the design and manufacture of a whole family of combat vehicles that made up the combat complex, and also serve as a basis for designing promising, even more powerful and perfect tanks.
64 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 12 October 2013 08: 26
    16
    The article is not bad, but it is unlikely that many will be interested in an intermediate sample labeled "Object".
    A very interesting moment is that armored vehicles are transferred to a Cuban stump, referring to secrecy, and at the same time, the tank is pulled away by scrap metal almost homeless .... Sadly ...
    1. common man
      common man 12 October 2013 09: 52
      16
      Well, let’s say it’s taken away not by homeless people, but by the employees of the same Cuban.
    2. Alekseev
      Alekseev 12 October 2013 09: 55
      +6
      Quote: Aristocrat
      A very interesting moment is that armored vehicles are being transferred to a Cuban stump, referring to secrecy and at the same time, the tank is pulled apart for scrap

      Yes, he is in Kubinka, there are all 4 remaining samples.
      Read carefully!
      And the backlog obtained during R&D on this topic will not disappear and, most likely, will be used in Armata
      1. max702
        max702 12 October 2013 13: 16
        +9
        I once cursed with the administrator of the museum’s website in Kubinka about the Loch’s approach to the museum’s exposition, the mess there and so on .. for all my statements it was stated that this was an active military unit and the corresponding regime of secrecy .. And they cursed about the lack of a warm civilized toilet .. what place is it related to secrecy I don’t know ..
        1. Andreitas
          Andreitas 12 October 2013 17: 14
          +4
          Yes, the toilet is really deplorable there. I was there two years ago. And so the museum is interesting.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 12 October 2013 20: 26
            +9
            Tank "Object 187", sample No. 3 with a gas turbine power plant. BTT Museum in Kubinka, current condition.

            Tank "Object 187", sample No. 6. BTT Museum in Kubinka, current condition.

            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 12 October 2013 21: 30
              +3
              And one more photo from the same tank (sample No. 6).
              1. ildar335
                ildar335 12 October 2013 22: 59
                +1
                guys were in kubinka 2 times! where is this dump of old equipment ????
      2. cdrt
        cdrt 13 October 2013 02: 40
        +3
        To this BO case from T-90SM, a GOP transmission in a monoblock with an engine of the V-2 series, a chassis from T-80, here is an almost ideal tank for RA
  2. T80UM1
    T80UM1 12 October 2013 08: 32
    +6
    The perceptive tank was, the only thing missing was the thermal imager and the reserved niche for shells. At least the body was deprived of the weakened zone of the so-called necklace. But they decided to save money and began to rivet t-72bu and then t-90a
  3. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 12 October 2013 09: 48
    +3
    the ideas of his Chief Designer - Vladimir Ivanovich Potkin - vol. 187 was to become the basis for the design and manufacture of a whole family of military vehicles that made up the combat complex, and also serve as the basis for the design of promising, even more powerful and advanced tanks.

    a whole family of combat vehicles

    even more powerful and advanced tanks

    Armata ??? If only my hunch was not a reality!
    1. egor 1712
      egor 1712 12 October 2013 11: 40
      +3
      It seems that this is the basis on which Armata worked ...
  4. svp67
    svp67 12 October 2013 10: 41
    12
    The Ural Design Bureau made tremendous efforts in a futile attempt to put this wonderful machine into service of the Soviet Army. However, despite successful tests and a clearly high combat and technical potential, the machine was not accepted into service by the Ministry of Defense. Instead, customers from the Moscow Region once again preferred half measures and concentrated on refining the 188 - the symbiosis of the T-72B case with part of the 187 systems.

    Oh these "armored warriors" !!! They, the "production workers" offer "candy", and they are all drawn to some kind of "nasty" ...
    And the author cannot give a figure - how much money did UVZ ask for the production of this machine? And how many "gunners" for a new gun? And the "ammunition"?
    This very good car, it just appeared at a not happy time, when there was not enough money for a salary, but everything went to the "primary accumulation of capital" by our new "elite" ...
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 12 October 2013 12: 09
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      And the author cannot give a figure - how much money did UVZ ask for the production of this machine? And how many "gunners" for a new gun? And the "ammunition"?
      This very good car, just appeared in a not happy time

      Absolutely accurate definition! good
      But such many, many technical solutions worked out on this machine will certainly be in demand. In particular, a powerful diesel engine, a new transmission (GOP, at least for turning mechanisms)
      and much more.
      Similar developments are the gold fund of the defense industry.
      Moreover, they were carried out by a specialized design bureau.
      And then other so-called "modernization", which instead of "shoemakers" are taken by "pastry" only amuse.
      So, in one of the most industrialized southern countries, without seriously changing anything in the chassis, the transmissions, leaving the old STV on the 55th, they put a 125mm gun and a solid mass of additional armor.
      It will be such a tank that it will carry, but how it will fire and, in general, fight the question.
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 12 October 2013 20: 04
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      And the author can’t name a figure - how much money did UVZ ask for establishing production of this machine?

      In production, the 187th at a price was slightly lower than the T-80U, which was almost three times more expensive than the T-72.
      Well, what's so surprising? The new building, the new MTO, the new OMS.
      Therefore, they chose it cheaper (188): the same building as the T-72 (with a pedigree from T-64), a slightly different MTO, a slightly different suspension, the LMS like the T-80U, and at the exit - T-90 Not a masterpiece, but relatively cheap.
    3. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 13 October 2013 00: 55
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      This very nice car, just appeared in a not happy time,

      Surely "something like that" is, Sergei ...
      Eheh.
      1. svp67
        svp67 13 October 2013 03: 25
        +1
        Quote: Bad_gr
        Not a masterpiece

        Quote: Aleks tv
        Eheh.

        hi
  5. castle
    castle 12 October 2013 10: 50
    +3
    Good health to all.
    No offense, be it said, but the story with "Armata" reminds me of the moment from "12 chairs" by Ilf and Petrov, when Ostap Bender and Kisa Vorobyanin were drawing an agitation poster on a river boat. How much they thought up, how much energy they spent to get on the ship. What was the result, most of us know.
    1. Bear52
      Bear52 12 October 2013 22: 52
      +1
      castle
      What was the result, most of us know.

      I wish you were wrong, comrade soldier
      Minus - did not set! drinks
  6. Kars
    Kars 12 October 2013 10: 56
    10
    Something quite a while ago there were no normal articles on BTT. Would any of the tankers take the experience of the Syrian war, for the benefit of the video material is just the sea.

    Here's an example of a hit similar to what struck Challenger's forehead in Iraq.
    Why for example on the T-72 there are not even rubber-fabric screens on the T-80?
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 12 October 2013 12: 34
      +4
      To really understand the experience of the Syrian war, one "sea of ​​video materials" is completely insufficient. We need a specialist who has personally been there, on the line, so to speak, of confrontation. For a competent analysis one must not only see damage, but also know under what circumstances they were received. Have reliable statistics for correct generalizations.
      An illustrative example is the coverage of tank losses in the Berlin operation: despite the widespread opinion about the enormous losses from the Faustniks, when examining the experience of fighting, the competent commission found that more than 70% of tank losses occurred from artillery fire ...
      And it is unlikely that the battles in Syria will bring something new: the weapons used there are well-known, the tactics of actions during battles in the city also have not changed much since the time of the WWII.
      The only thing that, in my opinion, is obvious: tanks in battles are "stripped like sticky", side skirts, boxes for spare parts and accessories are often demolished. This indicates a lack of manpower and resources in the repair and restoration units. Or about the lack of "order in the Syrian armored forces", which is very likely in a civil war.
      1. Kars
        Kars 12 October 2013 14: 16
        +3
        Quote: Alekseev
        completely not enough

        I agree, but still coca or analysis can be done.
        Quote: Alekseev
        Have reliable statistics for valid generalizations.

        vryatli in Syria in general someone is doing this.
        Quote: Alekseev
        in spite of the widespread opinion about the enormous losses from the Faustians

        Well, thanks for that, I watered the workers who wrote their memoirs for the Soviet generals.
        1. uladzimir.surko
          uladzimir.surko 12 October 2013 15: 58
          +2
          Kars, as I understand it, is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPB3vBpfcms&list=UU0-BJmmq9v7sDwoEM5Xao8Q&feature

          = player_detailpage A mechanic is a pity!
          1. Saburov
            Saburov 12 October 2013 21: 46
            +2
            Honestly, there is much to discuss about the combat use of armored vehicles in Syria, but as a doctor I’ll say that the Syrians have very poor staff training, it touched the Soviet school even when they even visited us at the CTU in 80x, it’s already over, now they are studying already on the combat experience, the reports that I have seen, the first mutual assistance and the coherence of the crews leave much to be desired, the tactics of warfare, well, even if they just simply do not take the car out of the fire, but they turn around with a trunk and look for where the gift came from, about the combat maneuver generally by they don’t have a lot of sad things, but they’d like to live, learn how to fight, although Qatar was simply given 20 seventy-two, were thrown out of service when leaving, they didn’t even bother to mine. Qatar people now make films with their participation, like brave militants blow up Syrian tanks, although instructors already there, but for now, as they say the first pancake is lumpy.
            1. Saburov
              Saburov 12 October 2013 22: 01
              0
              Do you want a tank without a fight, MTO and Truck !!! Nothing has changed since the Second World War.
      2. Somad
        Somad 13 October 2013 00: 50
        +3
        Look at the ANNA-NEWS reviews of Syrian tankers. There they mention about on-board screens, including ...
    2. svp67
      svp67 12 October 2013 12: 34
      +5
      Quote: Kars
      Why for example on the T-72 there are not even rubber-fabric screens on the T-80?
      Here is shown a shovel of VBO (built-in bulldozer equipment), and if, after it was pierced, the projectile was able to penetrate the main armor, then it was of course a "tandem", it would be interesting to know if the projectile could do it?
      Why don't they install "rubber-fabric screens" ...
      1. getting into that area of ​​the tank is very problematic, basically these screens work against "pin anti-bottom mines" ...
      2. Because of the UBO, since during its operation these screens must be removed, otherwise they can be lost ...

      1. Kars
        Kars 12 October 2013 14: 13
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        1. getting into that area of ​​the tank is very problematic

        As you can see from the picture, you could get in. By the way, I thought of a similar hit when the 2 Challenger tank was discussed. In the case of the T-72AB, we drove the water mech and the tank had to be left.
        Quote: svp67
        Here is shown the UBO shovel

        To know my rank, a plastic tanker is enough.
        But as for the screens, it’s not clear, I think that okapyvatsa is so often not suitable, and the screens could be made quick-detachable.

        By the way, this concerns me with respect to BM Bulat.
        1. Yemelya
          Yemelya 12 October 2013 14: 32
          +3
          Quote: Kars
          I think something that okapyvatsa so often is not suitable, and the screens could be made quick-detachable.


          It was supposed to dig in, including in the area of ​​the WMD, so removing the screens would not always work.

          EMNIP, I came across a photo of a digging in T-80U and the screens on it just pulled up, although at the same time, clearly, there was no overview.

          IMHO, the front screens were placed on the T-80 to reduce the dust cloud falling into the engine, they simply inherited the T-80UD.
          1. Kars
            Kars 12 October 2013 15: 28
            +2
            Quote: Emelya
            It was supposed to dig in, including in the area of ​​the WMD, so removing the screens would not always work.

            Is it something until the shock wave reaches? And then the T-80 was not allowed into the WMD coverage area? And when you dig it in, you need a good view, and then there is nothing much to look at in the caponier's fur.
            Quote: Emelya
            IMHO, the front screens were placed on the T-80 to reduce the dust cloud,

            I have little faith in this. To the former cloud more skirts belong, but they were not on Soviet tanks.
            Quote: Hunghouse
            Well, why leave it, his ARVs were evacuated
            Leave the crew, or are they waiting for an internal BREM?
            1. Yemelya
              Yemelya 12 October 2013 15: 57
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              Is this until the shock wave reaches?


              ? Either after a strike, when attacking a scorched earth, or in defense on its territory that was subjected to self-strike or the impact of another WMD.

              Quote: Kars
              And then T-80s were not allowed into the WMD coverage area?


              ?

              Quote: Kars
              And vryatli when digging need a good review


              Someone is probably needed anyway.

              Quote: Kars
              and then in a caponier, fur is nothing to look at.


              The stump is clear.

              Quote: Kars
              I have little faith in this. To the former cloud more skirts belong, but they were not on Soviet tanks.


              And the front and side rubber fabric screens just appeared on the T-80. I think, just for protection against dust. Petals on the T-80U, by the way, could also be installed for this purpose.
              1. Kars
                Kars 12 October 2013 16: 32
                +2
                Quote: Emelya
                Or after a strike, when attacking scorched earth

                But I thought the tanks were considered to be the best means of warfare with nuclear weapons, that they were able to quickly skip through the infected, scorched area. By the way, how long did the filter last until it changed? With the exit from the tank? Or do you assume for days in the scorched earth of the party? Yes, and build defense.
                Quote: Emelya
                ?

                What?
                Quote: Emelya
                It was supposed to dig in, including in the area of ​​WMD, t

                Well, T-80 with the screens you wrote, it’s very difficult to dig in 7 how can I let it in there?
                Quote: Emelya
                Someone is probably needed anyway.

                So it’s going to be so. Yes, the commander will help.
                Quote: Emelya
                And the front and side rubber-fabric screens just appeared on the T-80

                screens are not a skirt, and side screens appeared on the entire line of T-64 / T-72 / T-80 where it was not previously installed during the repair process.

                Quote: Emelya
                b. I think, just for protection against dust.
                Or maybe all the same cumulative?
                1. Yemelya
                  Yemelya 12 October 2013 17: 06
                  +2
                  Quote: Kars
                  And I thought the tanks were considered the best means of warfare with nuclear weapons, that they were able to quickly skip through the infected, scorched area.


                  And if you do not succeed quickly?
                  And if the enemy’s counterattack?
                  And if the enemy started first?

                  Quote: Kars
                  By the way, how long does the filter last until it comes to change?


                  I do not know. How many?

                  Quote: Kars
                  Well, T-80 with the screens you wrote, it’s very difficult to dig in 7 how can I let it in there?


                  I assumed. Maybe not difficult.

                  Quote: Kars
                  So it’s going to be so. Yes, the commander will help.


                  Maybe so.

                  Quote: Kars
                  screens are not a skirt, and side screens appeared on the entire line of T-64 / T-72 / T-80 where it was not previously installed during the repair process.

                  First on the T-80, then, when, probably, it turned out that it was better than "burdocks" and lighter than solid steel, everywhere.
                  Quote: Kars


                  Or maybe all the same cumulative?


                  Anti-cumulative at the time of the appearance of the T-80 were "mugs", rubber-fabric, IMHO, performed two functions - protection from dust and from cumulative.

                  Quote: Kars
                  screens it's not a skirt


                  What's the difference?

                  Where is the quote from?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 12 October 2013 17: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    And if you do not succeed quickly?

                    To retreat, or die.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    And if the enemy’s counterattack?

                    Do you think it should be met in the infection zone?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    And if the enemy started first?

                    Does this change something in the characteristics of the infectious area?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    I do not know. How many?

                    Most interesting, but something tells you that not for long.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Anti-cumulative at the time of the appearance of the T-80 were "mugs", rubber-fabric, IMHO, performed two functions - protection from dust and from cumulative.

                    Maybe specify? What did you mean? And maybe IMHO than confirm? Well, where is the dust mentioned?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    What's the difference?
                    In length
                    in the photo you’ll understand where the anti-cumulative protection is, and where is the skirt?
                    From armored by T-80
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 12 October 2013 17: 47
                      +1
                      Quote: Emelya
                      Anti-cumulative at the time of the appearance of the T-80 were "burdocks", rubber-fabric, IMHO

                      Okay, I’ll work a little for you --- but this does not change the question about the screens on the NLD T-80
                      To enhance the protection of the sides of the tank from cumulative shells and to reduce dustiness during the movement of the tank since 1967, removable aluminum (three on board) and fixed rubber shields were installed on the tank.

                      Since January 1980, previously used aluminum shields on tanks are canceled and new solid rubber-metal screens are introduced


                      This is by T-64.
                      Quote: Emelya
                      IMHO, the front screens were placed on the T-80 to reduce the dust cloud

                      If this issue was dealt with by reducing dust levels before the T-80, and even more so until the appearance of a gas turbine engine
                      1. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 12 October 2013 18: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Okay, I’ll work a little for you --- but this does not change the question about the screens on the NLD T-80


                        Quote: Kars
                        If this issue was dealt with by reducing dust levels before the T-80, and even more so until the appearance of a gas turbine engine


                        "Mugs", apparently, turned out to be not very effective means for even more demanding on dust than 2-stroke, gas turbine engines, and in Leningrad the problem was solved in a different way. The side screens were then transferred to the T-64 and T-72, but the front ones, by the way, were not.
                        In addition, as I read an article on TV by the inventor of "burdocks", he did not say anything about the anti-dust function, although, probably, they can create an air flow, like bumpers on cabins of cabover trucks.

                        Quote: Kars
                        removable aluminum (three per board) and fixed rubber shields.


                        I did not understand about non-removable rubber. This is about rubber strips on "burdocks" or what?
                    2. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 12 October 2013 18: 16
                      +3
                      Quote: Kars
                      Do you think it should be met in the infection zone?


                      I think where this blow will be delivered, including in the affected area.
                      In addition, I-strike may not be one. I-charges can be used in preparing the counter-offensive of the enemy, etc.

                      Quote: Kars
                      Does this change something in the characteristics of the infectious area?


                      This affects the distribution of the offensive / defending roles.

                      Quote: Kars
                      Most interesting, but something tells you that not for long.


                      Excessive pressure is applied against radioactive dust, and it can be pumped as long as you like.

                      Quote: Kars
                      Maybe specify? What did you mean? And maybe IMHO than confirm? Well, where is the dust mentioned?


                      Dust, as you know, is the worst enemy of GTE. In order to avoid getting it, the T-80 designers went to various tricks - the air intakes behind the tower, the turbo-exhaust chamber, and a complex air purification system.
                      The screen covering the upper part of the chassis reduces the dust cloud formed during movement.

                      shaft


                      Quote: Kars
                      In length
                      in the photo you’ll understand where the anti-cumulative protection is, and where is the skirt?


                      If about lengthening the screens recently to the ground, but not sure if only because of dust. They are likely to affect the reduction of thermal radiation. Screens lengthened on the T-84U, and about. 640, and BMPT, and T-90MS. Those. not just for the desert.

                      Quote: Kars
                      From armored by T-80


                      The original meaning is forgotten. Moreover, the screens also performed an anti-cumulative function. ZIP boxes on the tower also protect against cumulative ones, but they do not stop being ZIP boxes.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 18: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I think where this blow will be delivered, including in the affected area.

                        What a cruel person)) fool

                        Quote: Emelya
                        In addition, I-strike may not be one. I-charges can be used in preparing the counter-offensive of the enemy, etc.

                        so what? Tell me the tactical charge strike zone? well, there is up to 100 ct? And it is precisely necessary to build defense + 1_3 km in it?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        This affects the distribution of the offensive / defending roles.
                        And how does this relate to the topic of entrenchment at the epicenter of a nuclear explosion?

                        Quote: Emelya
                        Excessive pressure is applied against radioactive dust, and it can be pumped as long as you like.
                        And what to pump up? Accidentally not air? And maybe not outboard? Maybe it still does not need to be filtered?


                        Quote: Emelya
                        Dust, as you know, is the worst enemy of GTE. In order to avoid getting it, the T-80 designers went to various tricks - the air intakes behind the tower, the turbo-exhaust chamber, and a complex air purification system.
                        What are you?))
                        Quote: Emelya
                        The screen covering the upper part of the chassis reduces the dust cloud formed during movement.
                        I look at the valentine and I don’t see the screens on NLD)))) but how can the dust cloud decrease without them?
                        By the way, you would have looked closely at the shape of the wing in front, but remembered that this was a simple modification.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        If about lengthening the screens recently to the ground, but not sure if only because of dust. They probably affect the reduction of thermal radiation.

                        Thermal emission is also present, but the screen covering the hubs is of primary importance in the chassis. And of course, the thermal value was very important for the Challenger tanks specially modernized for combat operations in the Iraq desert, against Iraqi ultra-modern thermal imaging equipment.
                      2. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 12 October 2013 21: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I think where this blow will be delivered, including in the affected area.
                        What a cruel person))


                        Even I did not understand, but what should be done in case of an enemy counterattack in the zone of use of WMD? Take it up?
                        Quote: Kars
                        so what? Tell me the tactical charge strike zone? well, there is up to 100 ct? And it is precisely necessary to build defense + 1_3 km in it?

                        It is necessary to build where the blow will be dealt. And where the blow will be struck, there will be applied WMD.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And how does this relate to the topic of entrenchment at the epicenter of a nuclear explosion?

                        Why at the epicenter? In the zone of action of damaging factors ... And WMD is not only nuclear weapons.

                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, you would have looked closely at the shape of the wing in front, but remembered that this was a simple modification.


                        The side screens on the British tanks in Africa, designed to reduce the dust cloud are exactly the same in shape as the screens used on the T-80.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And of course, the thermal value was very important for the Challenger tanks specially modernized for military operations in the desert of Iraq, against Iraqi ultra-modern thermal imaging equipment.


                        Maybe they modernized it not only for Iraq. The French didn’t fight in Iraq, but the screens of the Leclerc were lengthened.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, on BMPT and T-90 it was done specifically for anti-cumulative protection.

                        And why is the “Challenger” ambiguous for anti-cumulative protection?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And what to pump up? Accidentally not air? And maybe not outboard? Maybe it still does not need to be filtered?


                        Yes, I really didn’t think.

                        Quote: Kars
                        The original meaning is forgotten. By whom?


                        Historians.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, anti-cumulative screens that help reduce bileobrazhenie, also do not cease to be anti-cumulative from this. But you can find where the screens are called dustproof.


                        From the discharge, the glass is half empty / half full

                        "Anti-cumulative screens designed taking into account the changed requirements for reducing the dust footprint in connection with the installation of a gas turbine engine" will fit?

                        It is possible "screens designed to reduce the dust footprint, the development of which took into account the need to protect the board from cumulative ammunition", although, even if the task of protecting against cumulative ammunition was not set, the screens would still have the same shape.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 22: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Even I did not understand, but what should be done in case of an enemy counterattack in the zone of use of WMD? Take it up?

                        They themselves understood what they wrote? What is needed, you need to be in the application area. And why is this? ITS needs to be overcome as quickly as possible.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Why at the epicenter? In the zone of action of damaging factors ... And WMD is not only nuclear weapons.
                        How long does a cloud of chemical weapons stay in the air? And how much is a danger? And you can even have the zone of action of the damaging factors of the same 100 kiloton, and the duration of this effect.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        to reduce the dust cloud, they are exactly the same in form as the screens used on the T-80.

                        No, you open your eyes.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Maybe they upgraded it not only for Iraq

                        The 1MK3 Challenger was modernized specifically for the war in Iraq, and they do not use it in their own homeland.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        and at "Leclerc" the screens were lengthened.
                        Well, they did the skirt just against the dust and did you understand the bottom, what am I talking about? Or should I take a photo?

                        Quote: Emelya
                        Yes, I really didn’t think.
                        Well this is not the first time. I’m already used to even expect this from you.


                        Quote: Emelya
                        "Anti-cumulative screens designed taking into account the changed requirements for reducing the dust footprint in connection with the installation of a gas turbine engine" will fit?

                        No, it’s not. The screens as such have nothing to .. the changed requirements to reduce the dust cloud ..
                      4. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 12 October 2013 22: 40
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        They themselves understood what they wrote? What is needed, you need to be in the application area. And why is this? ITS needs to be overcome as quickly as possible.


                        The zone may be large.

                        Quote: Kars
                        How long does a cloud of chemical weapons stay in the air? And how much is dangerous?


                        I don’t know how long the cloud holds, but I remember for sure that in case of detection of such signs of use as dead foliage and dead animals, you need to wear a jeep. OM can also be liquid. Any byak can still fall from the sky - the Vietnamese from orange still bliss. Bacteriological weapons still exist.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And you can even the area of ​​action of the damaging factors of the same 100 kiloton, and the duration of this effect.


                        Radioactive contamination - far around and for a long time. The conflagration is far and long.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, they did the skirt just against the dust and did you understand the bottom, what am I talking about? Or should I take a photo?


                        And how does this contradict the fact that the T-80 also has dust?

                        Quote: Kars
                        No, it’s not. The screens as such have nothing to .. the changed requirements to reduce the dust cloud ..


                        For the first time, rubber skirts were put on the T-80, and the apron, only on the T-80.

                        Quote: Kars
                        No, you open your eyes.


                        I don’t put on shoes.
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 22: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        The zone may be large

                        This is who has such huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons that would strike with strategic warheads not in cities?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I don't know how much the cloud holds

                        In vain.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Any byak can still fall from the sky - the Vietnamese from orange still bliss.

                        Will you always sit in the tank?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Radioactive contamination - far around and for a long time. The conflagration is far and long.

                        But this is not a reason to constantly sit in the tank, it’s not recognizable, there are permissible doses of radiation. How much more can one get out of the tank and in a gas mask? Or not?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        And how does this contradict the fact that the T-80 also has dust?

                        Because the T-80 does not have a skirt. It only has anti-cumulative, PROTECTIVE screens. Although they slightly reduce the formation of dust traces.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        For the first time we put rubber skirts on the T-80, and the apron, only on the T-80

                        Pruff? Lynn? Or IMHO? So it doesn’t rip from you.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I don’t put on shoes.

                        Do not lie.
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 22: 58
                        +2
                        ______________
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 22: 59
                        +1
                        ______________
                      8. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 12 October 2013 23: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is who has such huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons that would strike with strategic warheads not in cities?


                        Are stock sizes in doubt?
                        You can handle it tactically as well.
                        Quote: Kars
                        )))) didn’t you think again? instantly crossed out the main advantage of tank formations - MOBILITY))) and set it up for a nuclear strike.
                        And here it is)))

                        If there is any doubt that after the use of nuclear weapons Europe will become a burnt out radioactive desert, I advise you to familiarize yourself with the results of research by Soviet and Western scientists from the Cold War.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Will you always sit in the tank?


                        Wait for the degassing and flushing of radioactive and other substances. The toilet in the BMP-3 was not made for fun.

                        Quote: Kars
                        But this is not a reason to constantly sit in a tank


                        Luke opened - he let in dust. A tank carries a layer of radioactive dust with it.
                        Quote: Kars
                        permissible radiation doses exist.

                        If you let dust in, the irradiation will become permanent, then krants.
                        Quote: Kars

                        Moreover, you can get out of the tank and in a gas mask? Or not?

                        Once, then the jeep will have to be thrown away, but the dust will still remain on clothes and shoes.

                        Quote: Kars
                        do you strike while burying tanks?)))


                        An enemy attack during the use of WMD is repelled, including by buried tanks.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Because the T-80 does not have a skirt. It only has anti-cumulative, PROTECTIVE screens. Although they slightly reduce the formation of dust traces.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Unequivocally from dust, the lower rubber skirt, the rest is to protect the side from damage by ammunition, both cumulative and kinetic.


                        Like, the screens of British tanks in Africa in 1941, the same as those of the T-80, did not reduce the dust footprint.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Pruff? Lynn?

                        I don’t understand Russian.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 12 October 2013 23: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Are stock sizes in doubt?

                        It calls.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        It’s possible to handle tactically well

                        so I’m talking about them
                        Quote: Kars
                        even the zone of action of the damaging factors of the same 100 kiloton, and the duration of this exposure


                        Quote: Emelya
                        If there is any doubt that after the use of nuclear weapons Europe will become a burnt out radioactive desert, I advise you to familiarize yourself with the results of research by Soviet and Western scientists from the Cold War

                        Of course, there is especially then why talk about actions during the Nuclear War?))
                        Quote: Emelya
                        If you let dust in, the irradiation will become permanent, then krants.
                        We have the same boost, and so much dust will not.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        Once, then the jeep will have to be thrown away, but the dust will still remain on clothes and shoes

                        So your degassing will not help))) you will not degass everything, especially if you are gathered in the epicenters of digging.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        An enemy attack during the use of WMD is repelled, including by buried tanks.

                        So they’re sorry I’m buried BEFORE using WMD))) or you have a bomb exploded, the surviving tanks are thrown into the epicenter and there they are being dug in anticipation of an ATTACK)))
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Like, the screens of British tanks in Africa in 1941, the same as those of the T-80, did not reduce the dust footprint.
                        Well, they are not the same, and as you yourself think, there is a difference in the degree of dust reduction in the type like the 1941, and the modern one with .. skirt ..)) Yes, and meanwhile the average speed of the tanks with 1941 in the British tanks changed a bit?)))

                        Quote: Emelya
                        I don’t understand Russian.

                        Didn’t you try Google? And as I understand it, they didn’t read the anatomy in the photo?
                        after 23?)))) can you think about the meaning of the phrase?
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 13 October 2013 00: 23
                        +1
                        By the way, another cool photo from the AMX -30 camp of the Middle East)))
                      11. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 13 October 2013 00: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Of course, there is especially then why talk about actions during the Nuclear War?))


                        7% of the territory will receive pollution of a lethal level, radioactive contamination is much higher in areas of low-level nuclear weapons.
                        Quote: Kars
                        We have the same boost, and so much dust will not.


                        Supercharging is used with closed hatches. If you get out and climb back with dust on your boots, you can cook a lead coffin.

                        Quote: Kars
                        So your degassing will not help))) you will not degass everything, especially if you are gathered in the epicenters of digging.


                        Degassing and flushing are carried out after leaving the zone of use of WMD in specially designated areas.

                        Quote: Kars
                        So they’re sorry I’m buried BEFORE using WMD))) or you have a bomb exploded, the surviving tanks are thrown into the epicenter and there they are being dug in anticipation of an ATTACK)))


                        Deadly fallout can occur tens and hundreds of kilometers from the epicenter, and there will be many epicenters ...

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, they are not the same, and as you yourself think, there is a difference in the degree of dust reduction in the type like the 1941, and the modern one with .. skirt ..)) Yes, and meanwhile the average speed of the tanks with 1941 in the British tanks changed a bit?)))


                        The task of the screens on the T-80 is to prevent dust in the air intakes, they coped with this.
                        rera


                        Quote: Kars
                        And as I understand it, they didn’t read the anatomy in the photo?
                        after 23?)))) can you think about the meaning of the phrase?


                        Then why only on the T-80?
                      12. Kars
                        Kars 13 October 2013 00: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        7% of the territory

                        Did you make me laugh?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        nuclear weapons Europe will become a burnt out radioactive desert, I advise you to read the research results

                        and here 7 percent)))
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Significantly higher in areas of application of low power nuclear weapons.

                        Where did you read this? An 1 megaton explosion will lift more soil into the air than an 15-20 ct, which is closer to tactical ammunition, with 100 ct I bent a little.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Supercharging is used with closed hatches. If you get out and climb back with dust on your boots, you can cook a lead coffin.

                        Well, it’s said too much. That after the Totsky training ground everyone didn’t die. Although there, of course, no one was dug in the epicenter as you plan.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Degassing and dust flushing are carried out after leaving the area of ​​use of WMD in specially designated areas

                        And the point? You counterattack to reflect, then attack this poultice to create a psychological mirage.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Deadly fallout can occur tens or hundreds of kilometers from the epicenter,

                        They can, but this does not apply to our case. The direction of the wind is a difficult and unpredictable thing. Yes, and if it honestly is not so deadly. How many Japanese have died from radioactive fallout hundreds of kilometers, while the first bombs are in the tens, or even hundreds times dirtier than modern tactical ammunition.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        The task of the screens on the T-80 is to prevent dust in the air intakes, they coped with this.

                        Filters cope with this, and all the same, you can confirm your words that THIS is such a TASK, and not a side effect? ​​Moreover, if you read the anatomy to the photo, the frontal screens appeared only at the beginning with the BV, then before that on A and B with there were relatively no problems with dust. And what is characteristic is the modification of the warhead just with an emphasis on protecting the tank precisely from cumulative ammunition.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        When, why only on the T-80?

                        That's what interests me. What kind of engineering twist? Like direct armor on the Tiger 1))
                        By the way, where is the air intake on your photo? (Or rather the intake) are you sure that there is no dust?
                      13. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 13 October 2013 01: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        7% of the territory
                        Did you make me laugh?
                        Quote: Emelya
                        nuclear weapons Europe will become a burnt out radioactive desert, I advise you to read the research results
                        and here 7 percent)))


                        7% - this is where it is fatal, then gradually decreases. 7% is without the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
                        Low power charges are characterized by a high fission coefficient, which creates significant foci of infection.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes and even if it’s honestly not so deadly. How many Japanese have died from radioactive fallout hundreds of kilometers, while the first bombs are dozens or even hundreds of times dirtier than modern tactical ammunition.


                        How many Japanese people died - x / z, the total number of irradiation - 200 thousand, some of them are in cities, and who are away, there are no exact data, and there were only 2 bombs, and radioactive fallouts fell, I think, as in the case of Fukushima to the Pacific Ocean mainly.
                        Quote: Kars
                        , despite the fact that the first bombs are tens, or even hundreds of times dirtier than modern tactical ammunition.


                        modern tactical ones are highly polluting.

                        Quote: Kars
                        and maybe all the same I will provide confirmation of my words that THIS is such a TASK, and not a side effect?


                        No, this is my guess.

                        Quote: Kars
                        ? Moreover, if you read the anatomy to the photo - the frontal screens appeared only at the start of the BV, so before that on A and B there were relatively no problems with dust.


                        Modified during operation, for example. VZU also only at the end of the 80's set.

                        On the T-80A, the front ones were probably already.

                        On about. 291 front removed. Either the new blade became a defense, or the VZU removed the severity of the problem.
                      14. Kars
                        Kars 13 October 2013 01: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        7% - this is where it is fatal, then gradually decreases.

                        All the same, it does not pull on the scorched desert.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        low-power arrays are characterized by a high division ratio, which creates significant foci of infection.

                        Or maybe it's just the other way around? It’s maximally done, and less than the undeveloped radioactive substance? But you can somehow confirm your words.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        modern tactical ones are highly polluting.

                        for fun, you can compare the masses of uranium / plutonium in the first nuclear bombs, and in the current charge in 20 CT.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        No, this is my guess.
                        So it’s not true. And I have already given a bunch of subjections.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        Modified during operation, for example. VZU also only at the end of the 80's set.

                        So this just refutes your assumption, again.
                        Quote: Emelya
                        On the T-80A, the front ones were probably already.
                        for sure? again, an assumption? And on And they could be put in for repair, in the years after the adoption of BV

                        Quote: Emelya
                        On about. 291 front removed

                        How can I determine if they were removed or have not been installed yet if the machine is experienced, and made in only a few copies. So this is not an argument.
                        Experienced tank "Object 291" at the exhibition in Zhukovsky.
                        On the experimental tank “Object 291” they worked out a new FCS (CCF), radar absorbing coatings, a new self-digging dump included in the tank protection circuit.
                        Find where there is a mention of advanced APU?
                        But the mention of the NEW dump blade of self-excavation can just explain the lack of, POSSIBLE temporary front screens.
                      15. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 13 October 2013 01: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        All the same, it does not pull on the scorched desert.


                        scorched is a result of conflagrations.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Or maybe it's just the other way around? It’s maximally done, and less than the undeveloped radioactive substance? But you can somehow confirm your words.


                        Fission products — isotopes — are dangerous. In powerful bombs, energy is released mainly as a result of synthesis.

                        Quote: Kars
                        So this just refutes your assumption, again.


                        which one?

                        Quote: Kars
                        for sure? again, an assumption? And on And they could be put in for repair, in the years after the adoption of BV


                        Maybe I didn’t see a single photo of T-80A (where it is precisely indicated that it is T-80A).

                        Quote: Kars

                        How can I determine if they were removed or not yet


                        and there’s nowhere to put it.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Find where there is a mention of advanced APU?


                        VZU is the same as on the later T-80U and T-80BV.
                      16. svp67
                        svp67 13 October 2013 01: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        Maybe I didn’t see a single photo of T-80A (where it is precisely indicated that it is T-80A).

                        The main and striking difference of this modification is the "Tunnel" (base) and the "window" of the optical rangefinder on the tower.
                      17. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 13 October 2013 01: 59
                        0
                        Quote: svp67
                        The main and striking difference of this modification is the "Tunnel" (base) and the "window" of the optical rangefinder on the tower.


                        In the photo, the T-80, which was modernized in the beginning. 80's.

                        The T-80A is an Alder, a gas turbine T-80 made in Kharkov, an early version of the T-80U.
                      18. svp67
                        svp67 13 October 2013 02: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Emelya
                        In the photo, the T-80, which was modernized in the beginning. 80's.

                        "I wash my hands", I just had to deal only with T80B, T80U and UD ... So I won't argue here.
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 13 October 2013 01: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    scorched is a result of conflagrations.

                    Well that's not so scary
                    then just what is the phrase then?

                    Quote: Emelya
                    If there is any doubt that after the use of nuclear weapons Europe will become burned out radioactive the desert

                    Quote: Emelya
                    Fission products — isotopes — are dangerous. In powerful bombs, energy is released mainly as a result of synthesis

                    Words, no more I'm waiting for confirmation from third-party sources. Moreover, Isotopes may well not be long-lived.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    which one?
                    about dustproof frontal screens.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    Maybe I didn’t see a single photo of T-80A (where it is precisely indicated that it is T-80A).
                    Well, AB is not particularly important, but I also have a BV without a front screen, which means it is not so important for non-combat operation.


                    Quote: Emelya
                    and there’s nowhere to put it.

                    So there is no data about the new APU?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    VZU is the same as on the later T-80U and T-80BV.

                    therefore your next assumption is refuted.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    On about. 291 front removed. Whether the new blade became a defense whether VZU removed the severity of the problem.
                  3. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 13 October 2013 02: 09
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Words, no more I'm waiting for confirmation from third-party sources.


                    L. Dotto, "Planet Earth in Danger", p.104: "At low power, weapons based on the fission reaction become effective. The greatest danger of radiation damage is created by the fission reaction." "The use of tactical nuclear weapons can lead to heavy rainfall, especially in densely populated areas of Europe."

                    Quote: Kars
                    about dustproof frontal screens.


                    Why?

                    Quote: Kars
                    I also have a BV without a front screen, which means that it is not so important for non-combat operation.


                    Broke / Lose ...

                    Quote: Kars
                    therefore your next assumption is refuted.


                    I do not see the logic. Air began to climb higher and there was no need for front screens, for example.
                  4. Kars
                    Kars 13 October 2013 09: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    "The use of tactical nuclear weapons can lead to heavy rainfall, especially in densely populated areas of Europe."

                    Really? And the use of strategic nuclear weapons will not lead to abundant rainfall? Is this understood?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Modified during operation, for example. VZU also only at the end of the 80's set.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    Why?

                    If you tried to switch logic on? If the tanks went without VZU and they didn’t need frontal screens, then with what joy they (frontal screens) were needed after installing the VZU.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Broke / Lose ...

                    And they go, and did not rush to put a new one, otherwise the dust will be clogged.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    I do not see the logic.
                    I begin to doubt that you know what it is)))

                    Quote: Emelya
                    air began to climb higher and there was no need for front screens, for example.

                    And why did he become higher? You yourself write that nothing has changed in VZU.
                  5. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 13 October 2013 12: 37
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    Really? And the use of strategic nuclear weapons will not lead to abundant rainfall? Is this understood?


                    I already wrote about the fission coefficient, for strategic I-ammunition, working on the principle of synthesis, it is much smaller.

                    Quote: Kars
                    If you tried to switch logic on? If the tanks went without VZU and they didn’t need frontal screens, then with what joy they (frontal screens) were needed after installing the VZU.


                    I understood that the frontal screens were installed in 1985, when I didn’t know the exactories, but I guess that in the late 1980s, because there is a photo of the T-80U without VZU.
                    Quote: Kars
                    And why did he become higher? You yourself write that nothing has changed in VZU.

                    Above, air began to be taken in after installing the VZU.

                    Quote: Kars
                    And they go, and did not rush to put a new one, otherwise the dust will be clogged.


                    The simplest explanation - removed, so as not to damage and grab at the test.

                    Quote: Kars
                    And why did he become higher? You yourself write that nothing has changed in VZU.
                  6. Kars
                    Kars 13 October 2013 12: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    I already wrote about the fission coefficient, for strategic I-ammunition, working on the principle of synthesis, it is much smaller.

                    I’m still waiting for confirmation from third-party sources that you brought inappropriate. It is already clear that with nuclear weapons there will be radioactive fallout. But it is precisely the tactical ones that have the worst rate I did not see.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    As I understood, the new screens were installed in 1985, when I do not know the exact memory, but I guess that at the end of 1980, as there is a photo of T-80U without VZU.

                    Well, if you read all the same what was signed on the photo, you would read that the frontal screens began to be installed after 10 years of (approximately) operation of the T-80 tanks with a gas turbine engine, on the T-80BV tank and, therefore, the VZU is completely irrelevant here, like dust .
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Above, air began to be taken in after installing the VZU.

                    Are you stupid?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    On about. 291 front removed. Either the new blade became a defense, or the VZU removed the severity of the problem.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    VZU is the same as on the late T-80U and T-80BV

                    And here you are)))
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Above, air began to be taken in after installing the VZU.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    The simplest explanation - removed, so as not to damage and grab at the test.

                    and an engine clogged with dust (according to your type of assumptions) does not bother them.
                  7. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 13 October 2013 13: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    But the fact that it is the tactical ones that have the worst rate I have not seen.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    "When low power effective weapon based on the fission reaction. The greatest danger of radiation damage is created by the fission reaction. "


                    Quote: Kars
                    I’d read that they began to install the frontal screens after 10 years (approximately) of operation of the T-80 tanks with gas turbine engines, on the T-80BV tank and, consequently, the VZU, are completely irrelevant here, like dust.


                    The improvement of dust protection was progressing gradually, first the front screens were installed, then the OSD.

                    Quote: Kars
                    Are you stupid?


                    Is this a general philosophical question or is it doubtful that after installing the VZU, air began to climb much higher?

                    Quote: Kars
                    and an engine clogged with dust (according to your type of assumptions) does not bother them.


                    The realities of military service ..
                  8. Kars
                    Kars 13 October 2013 17: 10
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    But the fact that it is the tactical ones that have the worst rate I have not seen.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    "At low power, weapons based on the fission reaction become effective. The greatest danger of radiation damage is created by the fission reaction."

                    This does not prove that tactical warheads will pollute the battlefield more than strategic.
                    And you can’t tell from the strategic nuclear charges fission reaction does not occur?
                    Quote: Emelya
                    The improvement of dust protection was progressing gradually, first the front screens were installed, then the OSD.

                    it won’t go away. Pridetsa has something to confirm to you HOME. Why, then the front screens appeared on the model with improved protection from the COP, and before that the T-80A and B did without them.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    The realities of military service ..

                    Even in the Ukrainian 2000's, this is impossible.

                    Sorry, but I'm drawing myself an asterisk)) another.

                    Quote: Kars
                    Quote: svp67
                    Of course, first of all, this is protection against the COP,
                    This is the main point. I can draw one more star for disputes with Emelya.


                    Come on)))
                    And you’ll write something when you bring a mention from a third-party source. For example, I brought it on the screen))) You think about it by COVERING the lower frontal sheet, and not reducing dust formation
                  9. Yemelya
                    Yemelya 13 October 2013 18: 20
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    And you can’t tell from the strategic nuclear charges fission reaction does not occur?


                    In thermonuclear bombs - synthesis, decay can be as a detonator.

                    Quote: Kars
                    For some reason, the front screens appeared on the model with improved protection against the COP, and before that the T-80A and B did something without them.


                    At first they did without VZU, then they put it. Perfection knows no limit.

                    Quote: Kars
                    Sorry, but I'm drawing myself an asterisk)) another.


                    Where?

                    Quote: Kars
                    For example, I brought it on the screen))) You think about it by COVERING the lower frontal sheet, but not reducing dust formation


                    From a magazine of some kind ...
                  10. Kars
                    Kars 13 October 2013 20: 44
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    In thermonuclear bombs - synthesis, decay can be as a detonator.

                    Nuclear and hydrogen ammunition are slightly different.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    At first they did without VZU, then they put it. Perfection knows no limit.

                    This means that your assumption is false, and you could not give evidence.
                    Quote: Emelya
                    Where?
                    Wherever I want.

                    Quote: Emelya
                    From a magazine of some kind.
                    You at least bring this))) And by the way the magazine is a monograph of Baryatinsky.
  7. Kars
    Kars 13 October 2013 01: 51
    +1
    ________________
  8. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 02: 13
    +1
    There is this photo in good resolution, it is clearly visible that there is space for installing these screens, here they are either lost or, for some reason, removed or not installed ...
  9. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 23
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    The task of the screens on the T-80 is to prevent dust in the air intakes, they coped with this.

    On the T64 in the area of ​​the air intake, an additional "screen" is even installed for the same purpose ...
  10. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 08
    0
    Quote: Kars
    This is who has such huge stockpiles of nuclear weapons that would strike with strategic warheads not in cities?

    And sometimes you don't need a "full-fledged" nuclear bomb, a "dirty" bomb can make a very large contamination zone
  11. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 11
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Will you always sit in the tank?

    Why? You leave the contamination zone and continue as in the PMP lesson, the means of protection are in the ON position, the TDP balloon in hand and go, save yourself and the tank from infection ... if the "chemists" have not organized a full-fledged decontamination point ...
  12. Kars
    Kars 13 October 2013 01: 25
    +1
    Better tell me how long you can sit in the tank until the filters clog. Or are they self-cleaning?
  13. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 31
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Better tell me how long you can sit in the tank until the filters clog. Or are they self-cleaning?

    Generally speaking, it all depends on the DEGREE and INFECTION FORCE, there are special tables for calculation, the crew itself can only monitor the external background and if there are special devices on board, such as DP5, and everything only by command of the senior chief ...
    The filters themselves are not cleaned, but only replaced ...
    And in extreme cases, each crew member has a gas mask and a respirator ...
  14. Kars
    Kars 13 October 2013 01: 43
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Generally speaking, it all depends on the DEGREE and FORCE OF INFECTION

    Well, here we have the task of self-capacy at the epicenter + -2 km
    Quote: svp67
    On the T64 in the area of ​​the air intake

    If I honestly see only a dirt collector. And there is still a diesel engine.


    So, all the same, rubber-fabric screens with metal elements are anti-cumulative, protective or anti-dust screens?
  15. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 02: 19
    0
    Quote: Kars
    If I honestly see only a dirt collector. And there is still a diesel engine.
    It's a pity there is no MTO photo from the top. Take a closer look at that photo, it is painted in sandy color, and here it is naturally black, "growing" along the MTO. He is not tall, but he can be seen well ...

    Yes, diesel, but TWO STROKE, which means HIGH SPEED, and it is also very sensitive to dust wear, this is one of its "weaknesses". Always at a halt, after the march, the first thing they did was to check that there was no "suction" of dust in the MTO and during maintenance of the MTO, that the air cleaner was clean and dry, otherwise it would be "truncated" ...
  16. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 02: 26
    0
    Quote: Kars
    So, all the same, rubber-fabric screens with metal elements are anti-cumulative, protective or anti-dust screens?

    Of course, first of all, this is protection from the COP, but one thing is not a hindrance to the other, it turned out that this way you can also fight dustiness. And honestly, when driving with a "skirt", there is much less dust on the "top", and without them, sometimes "you can't see it", even in broad daylight negative
  17. Kars
    Kars 13 October 2013 09: 49
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Of course, first of all, this is protection against the COP,

    This is the main point. I can draw one more star for disputes with Emelya.
  18. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 42
    0
    Yes, I forgot. Each soldier is given an IDNXX, according to which the number of X-rays received can be controlled
  19. Yemelya
    Yemelya 13 October 2013 01: 49
    0
    Quote: svp67
    Each soldier is given an ID1, according to which you can control the number of x-rays received


    I’ll clarify, do not control, but measure after irradiation special. tidy. Now there should be new ones for which the pocket is in the pants, but they, in my opinion, also do not inform in real time.
  20. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 02: 00
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    I’ll clarify, do not control, but measure after irradiation special. appliance
    Yes, you are right already began to forget ... I confused ID1 with DP24, they look similar, the latter allows you to control the dose yourself, for which you just need to look at the light through a "pencil" and see a scale with a "string"
  21. Kars
    Kars 13 October 2013 01: 53
    +1
    I once had such a box,

    By the way, I heard that they did not give reliable information. For psychological comfort (in order to panic the syndrome ... the living dead .. did not fall)
  22. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 02: 58
    0
    Quote: Kars
    By the way, I heard that they did not give reliable information. For psychological

    This is a simple "condender" which showed "0" in the charged state, and in the radioactive zone, due to the ionization of the air, it starts to discharge, and accordingly "moves" the thread, of course it is not very accurate, which is why they began to replace it with the same ID1.
    And for psychology, you can't look at the same ID1 yourself, but hand over a company, and he does everything himself to maintain a "normal psychological climate in the military collective."
    The fact that it is not just that I know from personal experience. In the year of Chernobyl, were on an internship in the Cherkasy division. So there was such an incident.
    The division was alerted and each officer and warrant officer together with a personal weapon, in this case, issued an "individual dose meter", in this case it was DP24. And so, a group of management officers of one of the regiments, sitting in the smoking rooms and waiting for orders for further action, began to urge the regiment's "chemist", they say, why do we need you, besides, as a senior, the cars go somewhere, and if something "bangs" everything we will not defend ourselves. He was already accustomed to such tricks and reduced everything to a joke. And suddenly one of the officers, after the words "You didn't even bother to load the pencils," shows him a "pencil", which really had a "thread" not at "zero". And the "chemist" was a very executive officer, he began to say something about the marriage of production, suggesting to change the "pencil" to his own, took it out and, before giving it away, apparently mechanically also looked. I personally saw him turn pale. Then he silently got up and went to the regiment headquarters, after 3 minutes a formation was announced, on which all DP24s were collected and handed over to the warehouse, they were no longer issued ...
    The officers are not stupid people, they immediately realized that something was wrong, and before surrendering, many managed to look into the "pencils", not everyone was shown the dose, they began to analyze and understood everything. "Pencils" worked for those who were at the Goncharovsky training ground at the time of the Chernobyl disaster, apparently a "cloud" flew there. Like this. Psychological health, frankly speaking, this news, which spread faster than "lightning" did not add ...
  23. svp67
    svp67 13 October 2013 01: 15
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Although yes, they slightly reduce the formation of dust traces.
    They do not reduce the formation of a dust cloud, they simply SIGNIFICANTLY limit it in the dimensions of the tank, differentiate, and reduce dust emissions above the "hodovka" and, accordingly, to the area of ​​the engine and FVU water inlets ... And so the amount of dust remains the same.
  24. Kars
    Kars 12 October 2013 22: 15
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    It is necessary to build where the blow will be dealt. And where the blow will be struck, there will be applied WMD.

    )))) didn’t you think again? instantly crossed out the main advantage of tank formations - MOBILITY))) and set it up for a nuclear strike.
    And here it is)))
    Quote: Emelya
    And where the blow will be struck, there will be applied WMD

    do you strike while burying tanks?)))
    Quote: Emelya
    And why is the “Challenger” ambiguous for anti-cumulative protection?
    Unequivocally from dust, the lower rubber skirt, the rest is to protect the side from damage by ammunition, both cumulative and kinetic.
  25. Kars
    Kars 12 October 2013 18: 57
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    Screens lengthened on the T-84U, and on about. 640, and BMPT, and T-90MS.

    Well, on BMPT and T-90 it was done specifically for anti-cumulative protection.
    Quote: Emelya
    The original meaning is forgotten.
    By whom?

    Quote: Emelya
    Moreover, the screens also performed an anti-cumulative function.

    Yes, of course, including - It is anti-cumulative and they perform.
    Quote: Emelya
    ZIP boxes on the tower also protect against cumulative ones, but they do not stop being ZIP boxes

    Well, anti-cumulative screens that help reduce bileobrazhenie, also do not cease to be anti-cumulative from this. But you can find where the screens are called dustproof.
  • Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 12 October 2013 15: 16
    0
    Quote: Kars
    As you can see from the picture, you could get in. By the way, I thought of a similar hit when the 2 Challenger tank was discussed. In the case of the T-72AB, we drove the water mech and the tank had to be left.

    Well, why leave it, its ARVs were evacuated. There is a 12 minute video, it shows everything
  • svp67
    svp67 12 October 2013 13: 13
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Why for example on the T-72 there are not even rubber-fabric screens on the T-80?

    This is how the issue is resolved more reliably and more practical, only questions arise regarding visibility ...
  • svp67
    svp67 12 October 2013 13: 15
    0
    Since the previously available TBS-86 slightly reduced it ...
  • ruslan207
    ruslan207 12 October 2013 14: 22
    0
    Kars -Here and now instead of t-95 will accept armature inferior
    1. Saburov
      Saburov 12 October 2013 21: 51
      +2
      If the tanks were made by modern software developers and iron manufacturers.
      Apple iTank:
      1. stylish white tank with a futuristic design, rounded edges, an apple on the tower.
      2. becomes obsolete faster than travels.
      3. stands like 20 of Chinese counterparts, but unlike them it does not know how to fly and fry pancakes.

      3. shells up to 1.99, 5.99 and 9,99 euros.
      4. when trying to call into the hangar, it can reset ammunition, drain fuel and cut off the legs of the tank commander, who can then be bought for 29.99.
      5. upon inspection not at the manufacturer, they may tell you that this is not a tank at all, but a sprat tank. you can turn the tank back into a tank in 29.99.
      6. when trying to refuel with non-native fuel, it cuts off not only the legs, but also the arms of the tank commander.
      7. upon purchase you are recorded in a sect the way out of which threatens death.

      Tank on Android
      1. tank like a tank, angular, made of cheap materials. colors to choose from: black, light black and dark black.
      2. never goes where necessary.
      3. offers a choice of 250 different free crew sets: of which 200 are deaf, 40 do not know how to control this particular tank. the rest of the 10 constantly beg for money, pass out, and suffer seizures.
      4. fuel constantly disappears
      5. after inspection and replacement of parts, it can shoot back into the tower, after which it cannot be restored.
      6. You can attach a flashlight to the barrel, change the color of the cabin, the gender of the crew.
      7. when replacing the engine with a newer, there is 70% chance of an ammunition explosion and 100% - a shell shock of the entire crew.

      Tanks on Windows mobile
      1. it’s actually an aircraft carrier.
      2. but he does not swim.
      3. and rides like an aircraft carrier.
      4. the crew is the same, but the problems are new every time.
      5. the tank commander is only of two types: shell-shocked and deaf-mute.
      6. randomly cripples the crew, bends the barrel, drains the fuel, shoots at his own.
      7. before repair it works disgustingly; after repair it never works.

      Chinese tanks.
      1. there are any types, sizes of colors, but unfortunately not at the moment.
      2. stand like new sneakers.
      3. the crew does not understand Russian, while trying to teach Russian, he tries to shoot himself.
      4. shoots, but not there. rides, but not as it should. can fly, but you can’t control it. frying pancakes, but not as it should.
      5. after two weeks it stops working.
      6. no guarantee
      7. requires replacement of everything that can be replaced. the result is a tank on Android.
      7. during the inspection it turns out that it consists entirely of plywood and stones are poured inside for more weight, no one can say how it works.

      Unix tanks.
      1. they send you a box.
      2. in box is a wrench, file and 1600 page guide ..
      3. .. about how to collect the death star.
      4. it turns out you have a scooter.
      5. you continue to repair the scooter for the rest of your life.
  • Azaat
    Azaat 13 October 2013 00: 31
    0
    What rubber screens see the first videos in Syria and the last. Note a few features, the first screens are made of reinforcement with paving stones, the second disappeared as unnecessary "Luna", the third appeared shields on the machine gun and finally all the same began to use dynamic protection in full.
    1. Kars
      Kars 13 October 2013 00: 37
      +1
      Quote: Azaat
      What rubber screens

      Ordinary.
      Quote: Azaat
      a few features, the first screens are made of reinforcement with paving stones,

      well, it’s just from poverty
      Quote: Azaat
      finally, all the same, they began to use dynamic protection to the fullest.

      there is nothing better than contact 1. even though it sometimes helps a lot.


      A special problem as I look is the means of observation and communication. It is also unlikely that there is any kind of instrumental intelligence.
      Quote: Azaat
      first videos in Syria and last
      honestly say a special difference is not visible.
  • Hemi cuda
    Hemi cuda 13 October 2013 02: 44
    0
    They planted it from the basement, it’s a pity. The screens from the Syrian tanks themselves fell off because they are kept on snot.
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 13 October 2013 10: 40
      0
      Quote: Hemi Cuda
      The screens from the Syrian tanks themselves fell off because they are kept on snot.
      A tank weighing over forty tons catches its sideways around the corner of a brick house and if the screens are fixed tightly, they will be torn off along with the shelves.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Technologist
    Technologist 12 October 2013 18: 44
    +2
    To insistent requests of the Uralvagonzavod museum for the transfer of at least one tank rev.187 for restoration and subsequent demonstration in the museum complex UVZ, GABTU invariably rejects and refers to secrecy.
    ____________________________
    And we always have it, neither to ourselves nor to people.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 12 October 2013 23: 08
    0
    Here is another example: the tank’s model seems to be better than the others, and they don’t even take it into service. And I don’t know what is playing a greater role here: exaggerated secrecy when making a decision or undercover fuss of representatives of the military-industrial complex and the army?
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 12 October 2013 23: 47
      0
      Quote: xomaNN
      And I don’t know what is playing a greater role here: exaggerated secrecy when making a decision or undercover fuss of representatives of the military-industrial complex and the army?


      It seems defeat in the Cold War.
  • Target
    Target 15 August 2014 11: 43
    0
    Quote: cth; fyn
    the ideas of his Chief Designer - Vladimir Ivanovich Potkin - vol. 187 was to become the basis for the design and manufacture of a whole family of military vehicles that made up the combat complex, and also serve as the basis for the design of promising, even more powerful and advanced tanks.

    a whole family of combat vehicles

    even more powerful and advanced tanks

    Armata ??? If only my hunch was not a reality!

    And why? This news made me feel better at heart, knowing that the works of Soviet designers were not in vain.