The Ministry of Defense has decided on a candidate for a new anti-submarine aircraft

The Russian Ministry of Defense decided to create a new anti-submarine aircraft. According to the Navy's High Command, the new anti-submarine aviation complex (PLC) will be created on the basis of the Tu-204 passenger liner.

The Navy Commander-in-Chief prepared the technical requirements for the new anti-submarine aviation complex (PLC), the base of which will be the passenger Tu-204 or its version Tu-214. According to available information, already built aircraft will be converted to PLC, which is much cheaper and faster than building them from scratch. The exact timing of the start of production of new aircraft is unknown, but previously it was stated that the aircraft should appear before 2030.

According to Izvestia, anti-submarine will enter the armament of new aircraft weapon, robotic search and hunting equipment for submarines and related search on-board equipment.

In the Ministry of Defense, the choice of Tu-204/214 as a base for new anti-submarine aircraft is explained by the fact that the aircraft has a long range, in its characteristics it is close to the Boeing 737-800, on the basis of which the American P-8 Poseidon was created. The Tupolev company also has experience in converting Tu-204 passenger airliners into airplanes for law enforcement agencies.

To date, the Ministry of Defense has two integrated reconnaissance aircraft Tu-214R, two reconnaissance aircraft, the Tu-214ON, were built for observation flights under the Open Skies international treaty.

The special flight detachment "Russia", which provides the work of the first persons of the state, includes the Tu-214 in the variants of a command post, relay, and special communication center.

According to the online registry of Russian aircraft, at least 30 Tu-204/214 in passenger modifications are currently in storage.

Comments

[Siberian 66]

But this is well done. And the sides will go into business, and support the Tupolevites. The plane is good, although fuel efficiency is not like that of a Boeing, but it is better to let PLO reborn from the ashes ..

[Vladimir_2U]

It’s good, probably, but its engines are rather low, so the requirements for the strip are high.

[Aerodrome]

The Russian Ministry of Defense decided to create a new anti-submarine aircraft. According to the Navy's Commander-in-Chief, the new anti-submarine aviation complex (PLC) will be created on the basis of the Tu-204 passenger airliner.

I have a "de ja vu" ... I definitely remember that I already heard something like that about 5 years ago ... apparently something is wrong with me ... I have no right not to believe Ruko vu. but there are doubts, ten years ago the first flight was, "prospects" - the sea ...! but again everything "moved" everything somewhere, and now it has risen again! just like "armata and t-50 with" Kurgan and coalition ".. still PAK YES is on the way, but an aircraft carrier with" own mistrals "... I'll go crazy. (we don't even know how to say they don't count us, and hawala people then ... hawala! how everything is running.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Aerodrome

I'm going crazy. (we don’t even know how to say it, they don’t think of us, and the people hawl then ... hawl! how everything is started.

I beg you! Do not be discouraged so nerves are not restored. Another bravura excuse officials from aviation.

[Mavrikiy]

More precisely "universal putty". Like eyes, like mouth.
- What did you do from 9 to 19?
- They were determined. aircraft should appear before 2030.
(read the first sample).

[keeper03]

Tu-204 and Tu-214 our industry already produced and quite them mastered ?! So why were they crammed into a long drawer again, right up to 2030 ?!? Are you bureaucrats in your mind?!? So you will kick our aircraft? !!

[volodimer]

The carcass in the passenger did not enter, since it has three crew members. But for the military, this is no problem. Tu-214 is our most advanced aircraft in the framework of the "Open Skies" program, the Americans really didn’t let it fly over them. But the plane itself was designed and certified. It is a good idea to modify the scout into an anti-submarine variant.
Since it already provides for the location of the necessary equipment and places for operators. It remains to dismantle the unnecessary, and equip it with means to destroy the submarine.

[orionvitt]

Quote: Aerodrome

we don’t even know how to say it, they don’t consider us, and the people are hitting that ... they are! how everything is started.

You are certainly not a people and do not hawk, of course, an "independently thinking person." But when you read you, it starts to feel sick. Whatever the news, how bad everything turns out to be, it's all the same that you read bulk agitation. Generally speaking, there is nothing good in the world, sorry, in Russia there is no fasting, a bunch of slops. Everything in the world is good for you, and nothing has been neglected, grace is everywhere, except Russia. Have you been to the rally of "systemic opposition" for a long time? Take comfort in the fact that you have a lot of companions in VO, from the same juvenile "literate".

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: orionvitt

But when you read, it starts to vomit.

And you from the announced terms do not feel sick? Or our everything?

The exact timing of the start of production of new aircraft is unknown, but previously it was stated that the aircraft should appear before 2030.

For such a period, the deadlines have already been laid. How is Trofim - "Uncle Vova, where are the landing?"

[orionvitt]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Or our everything?

What a childhood. Do you consider yourself original? You criticize, suggest. And leave the advice "from Sharikov" to yourself.

[Artemiy_2]

Why are you constantly acting like a clown? And where is the armata? And where is the t-50? You constantly flood

[venik]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

It’s good, probably, but its engines are rather low, so the requirements for the strip are high.

=======
Well, God bless him! And with "fuel efficiency" and with "runway requirements"! The main thing is that the COMPLEX works EFFICIENTLY!
Another thing is surprising: Having a Military Budget is not an ORDER (if not more) LESS than in the USA, they managed to create a defense system, which the "mattresses" are afraid!!!!
PS Strange WE are all the same people! The stronger put pressure on usTHE STRONGER WE BECOME!
PPS "liberast-dermocrats" - can begin to "throw slippers"!
For sim - I have the honor !!!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: venik

PS Strange WE are all the same people! The more they press on us, the STRONGER We become!

There is even a song like this - "Russians, Russians, why should we become stronger, we need trouble ?!"

[venik]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

There is even a song like this - "Russians, Russians, why should we become stronger, we need trouble ?!"

========
I don’t know whether this is good or bad .... but WE ARE SUCH !!!!

[SovAr238A]

Quote: venik

I don’t know whether this is good or bad .... but WE ARE SUCH !!!!

They didn’t boast about going to the army;

[Rzzz]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

but the engines are low

Normally located. 737 lower. In general, in its characteristics and dimensions, it is closer not to 737, but already to 757.

[Vladimir_2U]

Is 737 like military (no matter for what purpose) is used?

[Rzzz]

"Poseidon", which has been mentioned here many times, is exactly what it is, a device based on the 737-800, with anti-submarine filling and weapons.

[Vladimir_2U]

Yes, your truth, it remains to wish more of all sorts of rubbish in the turbines "Poseidon".

[Rzzz]

737 pretty tolerably flies through rather garbage airports. There the aerodynamics of the gondolas are designed. Pay attention to the gondola itself is not round, and the inlet has a complicated shape.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: rzzz

737 pretty tolerably flies through rather garbage airports

Perhaps, I will not argue, I do not wish bad things for passengers, but yes to Poseidon.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: rzzz

737 pretty tolerably flies through rather garbage airports

Perhaps, I will not argue, I do not wish bad things for passengers, but yes to Poseidon.

Vladimir.
When will you understand that this is a technical forum.
But not political.
It is customary to discuss the technical aspects of technology here ...

[Vladimir_2U]

Wow, i.e. News sections; Opinions; Are analytics and history and topics strictly technical? You do not confuse anything, where is it taken?

[x.andvlad]

According to the online registry of Russian aircraft, at least 30 Tu-204/214 in passenger modifications are currently in storage.
Good, it can be ... But for some reason, apparently, in civilian applications it is not in special demand:
firstly, since so many units are idle;
secondly, for the new project, which is planned to be launched by the year 30, already built aircraft will be used. How old will they be by then?
PS: it would be more logical to adapt seaplanes for these purposes.

[Grits]

Quote: x.andvlad

it would be more logical to adapt seaplanes for these purposes.

Of course, more logical. Only their logic does not fit into their absence. That is, it fits, but for this it is necessary to first develop, construct, test, launch into a series of. If we are going to deal with ready-made planes by 2030, then with seaplanes that are not there, we will manage by the end of 2050.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: x.andvlad

But for some reason, apparently, in civilian applications it is not in special demand:

The question is why? The answer is the Boeing and Airbus lobby. If in medicine pharmacists pay bonuses to doctors for prescribing "correct" drugs, then in the aviation industry even more so. And so far, for our bureaucrats, stuffing their pockets is of higher priority than state interests.

[provergatel]

No lobby. Only - 3 crew members. It is not economically profitable, given the share of the salary of crew members in the total cost of the flight. Plus, although not much, but worse fuel economy, compared with classmates. Well, and most importantly - the disgusting service policy of the Tupolevites, or rather, its almost complete absence (this jamb, unfortunately, has not yet been fully overcome even with significantly newer SSJs).

So, out of many small minuses, a sentence is formed for a plane that is not bad for its time. But the military, all these little things - on the drum. So the planes got a good chance for a second life.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: x.andvlad

PS: it would be more logical to adapt seaplanes for these purposes.

What for?
The cost of a hydroaerodrome is higher than the cost of a conventional airbase - since a hydroaerodrome should have a normal strip for take-off and landing of amphibians when icing a hydroaerodrome or during a large wave.
The weight return of the seaplane is less than that of a similar pack - since the possibility of landing and taking off from the water increases the weight of the structures and eats up the payload.
And most importantly - Taganrog regularly breaks the deadlines for seaplanes. The previous MO order for the Be-200 was canceled altogether, and the advance was returned through the court - since the plant did not even deliver a single aircraft two years after the contract period.

[Rzzz]

Quote: Alexey RA

Taganrog regularly breaks the deadlines for seaplanes.

Taganrog seriously stuck with motors. There is no alternative. If consumer-friendly versions of 36 engines provide spare parts according to gray schemes, then marine options in general cannot be ordered in any way.

[provergatel]

There is a problem with the engines in the Be-200.

Initially put Ukrainian. Now, for obvious reasons, they are not put. They were going to remotorize the aircraft to our engines, which still need to be developed, tested, and then the plane with them also to be certified.

[Zaurbek]

Because for comm purposes, he was good at the time of creation ..... and now they are already doing MC21.

[knn54]

And if ALL 30 pcs. it’s generally GREAT.

[IL-18]

Quote: Sibiryak 66

, and support the Tupolevites

Oh well. Our MO spoke about the use of T-204/214 for PLO when the Americans took B-737 for this. And it was a long time ago. Moreover, a certain amount of Tu-204, most likely, can be found for conversion from non-operating ones.

[Grits]

Quote: IL-18

Quote: Sibiryak 66

, and support the Tupolevites

Oh well. Our MO spoke about the use of T-204/214 for PLO when the Americans took B-737 for this. And it was a long time ago. Moreover, a certain amount of Tu-204, most likely, can be found for conversion from non-operating ones.

I think that this is the most correct decision. At VO already talked about this topic and someone suggested that for the anti-submarine aircraft, perhaps, the base will be used IL-112 (114). But, I think, given the fact that these Ilys are still just getting on the wing, we would have been waiting for anti-submariners for a very long time

[prosto_rgb]

Quote: Siberian 66

But this is well done. And the sides will go into business, and support the Tupolevites.

If the 2030th, then it would be worth it on the basis of MS-21 to do immediately and more unification and fuel efficiency.

[provergatel]

Damn!

But how, or rather, WHAT do all those killing here read in 2030?!?

It is written there BEFORE 2030 years! This means looking at the calendar from the current year to 2030!

What could be incomprehensible for a person for whom the native language is Russian?!?

[prosto_rgb]

Quote: oprovergatel

What could be incomprehensible for a person for whom the native language is Russian?!?

Very familiar with what dates are announced in the media and what dates in the end there are.
And this is if the project is not closed at all in a year and a half.

[Victor_B]

What about the BE-200?
Or even the A-40 Albatross?
A flying boat is generally perfect!
Or is it a question of money alone?

[Siberian 66]

Apparently the prospects are not clear and distant. BE-200 is good as a lifeguard should be, as a waterfowl.

[The leader of the Redskins]

Range and payload are not the same. But a flying boat, by analogy with the Be 12, also does not hurt to have - for the coastal zone.

[Victor_B]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Range and payload are not the same.

Not a damn thing to yourself !!

The given characteristics correspond to modification A-40.

Technical specifications
Crew: 4-8 people
Length: 45,70 m
Wingspan: 42,50 m
Height: 11,07 m
Wing area: 200 m²
Weight empty: 44 000 kg
Curb weight: 51 000 kg
Normal takeoff weight: 86 000 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 90 000 kg
Payload mass: 10 000 kg
Fuel weight: 35 000 kg
Engines:
main: 2 × turbofan engine D-30TKPV
take-off: 2 × turbojet engine RD-60K
Link:
basic: 2 × 117,68 kN
take-off: 2 × 6800 kgf
Flight characteristics
Maximum speed: 800 km / h
Cruising speed: 720 km / h
Practical range: 4000 km
Ferrying range: 5500 km
Duration of patrol: 12 h
Ceiling: 13 000 m
Operating altitude: 8000 m
Takeoff run: 1000 / 2000 m (land / water)
Mileage: 700 / 900 m (land / water)
Wing loading: 430 kg / m²
Aerodynamic quality: 16-17
Seaworthiness (wave height): 2,2 m
weaponry
Combat load: 6500 kg of various weapons:
hydroacoustic buoys, depth bombs, mines
3 torpedoes "Orlan" or
4 “Kite” or
4 anti-submarine missiles APR-2 "Hawk" or
6 torpedoes APR-3 "Eagle".

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/А-40_«Альбатрос»#Тактико-технические_характеристики

[The leader of the Redskins]

And Poseidon has a radius of 3700 km, and distillation 8300 km. One and a half times...

[Victor_B]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

And Poseidon has a radius of 3700 km, and distillation 8300 km. One and a half times...

Only Poseidon cannot sit on water for a couple of hours. Or maybe (according to the weather) and 10 hours hanging out in the water!
And from the ship can refuel.
While listening around.

[The leader of the Redskins]

He doesn't need it. However, Be 12 did not sit down to listen. There are buoys for that. And, unfortunately, "their" buoys are better than ours.
But "Poseidon" hangs over the submarine zone longer.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Victor_B

And from the ship can refuel.

Maybe it can, well, to be honest, I have not heard that there were tankers for airplanes.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Victor_B

Only Poseidon cannot sit on water for a couple of hours.

Guess why practical Americans do not cry with bitter tears at the thought that their Poseidon could not land on the water? The correct answer is that nobody cares. The objective of the PLO aircraft is to wet submarines, not rides with landing on water and risk to life. For reference, the accessibility to landing on the A-40 water of our seas is about 1-2 months a year in the Northern Fleet, 2-3 months a year in Pacific Fleet, 4-5 months a year in the Baltic Sea, (on the Black Sea (where there are no enemy submarines at all) - 6-7 months.
But the unique design of the small-scale amphibian will make it gold, unlike Poseidon assembled from parts of the 737th Boeing, which are stamped for civilians by thousands of pieces.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Victor_B

What about the BE-200?
Or even the A-40 Albatross?
A flying boat is generally perfect!
Or is it a question of money alone?

Also in terms ... Ten years, this is not thirty ...

[Victor_B]

Quote: ROSS 42

Also in terms ... Ten years, this is not thirty ...

You checkers, or go?

[Ka-52]

What about the BE-200?

well, what a habit of comparing horseradish with a finger? The beshka’s flight range is almost 7 times less.

[LVMI1980]

why radar in the sea to dunk on the Be200

[Victor_B]

Quote: LVMI1980

why radar in the sea to dunk on the Be200

And I would, in your place, Gus dipped!

[LVMI1980]

due to landing on water, at one time, there were proposals to make 2 radars: front and rear hemispheres. but rejected. There is also a problem with the thermal imager - it is also from below

[kapitan92]

Quote: Victor_B

What about the BE-200?

Quote: Victor_B

Or is it a question of money alone?

The question is about engines. The Be-200 is equipped with two D-436 engines (Motor Sich).
Russia is in a hurry to look for a replacement for the D-436, perhaps it will be European counterparts, but for now, test flights have been carried out with Russian-French Sam146 engines that are installed on the Sukhoi - Superjet 100.

[Rzzz]

Sam-146 is a pure gamble. Put almost completely imported motor, given what problems with the supply, even for civilian customers.
Only if the PD is made small, but it is very long time ago. Or Ukraine will surrender to the "achressor".

[kapitan92]

Quote: rzzz

Sam-146 is a pure gamble. Put almost completely imported motor, given the problems with the supply, even for civilian customers

All right!
In September last year, the United Engine Corporation (UEC) announced plans to complete aircraft remotorization by the end of 2020 by installing Russian-French engines SaM146, which is manufactured by PowerJet, a joint venture of the Russian NPO Saturn and the French company Snecma.
The Prosecutor General’s Office warned the Ministry of Industry and Trade about the risk of disruption of the defense order if the Ukrainian Be-200 amphibian aircraft replaced the Ukrainian-made D-436TP engines with SaM146 engines with components from NATO countries.
The position of the supervisory authority was noted, the decision to actually replace one foreign engine with another was canceled.
Thus, the Be-200 remotorization can only be carried out with the promising PD-8 engine. However, there is practically no information on this engine; it is also not known at what stage its development is.

Concerning the PD-8 engine, Oleg Bocharov explained that it is based on technologies already existing in Russia. In fact, only the “hot” part is being developed for the PD-8, everything else is already there. “We understand what to do. Of course, this is a new gas generator, processes, calculations, but it is important that we are not starting from scratch.

If we are promised PD 35 by 2025 for the "Putin" IL 96, it’s a boom to hope that PD 8 will appear early.

[Grits]

Quote: Victor_B

Or even the A-40 Albatross?
A flying boat is generally perfect!
Or is it a question of money alone?

And in money too. But also, in practice, the absence of "Albatross". After all, a single copy is not yet an airplane. To be at least three times perfect.

[Artemiy_2]

BE-200 is an ukrodvigatel

[NEXUS]

Quote: Victor_B

What about the BE-200?
Or even the A-40 Albatross?

From the same song, the question is, why not ekranoplan?

[Victor_B]

Quote: NEXUS

From the same song, the question is, why not ekranoplan?

And hell knows!
My sofa is so low Enko on the screen flies badly.
It is possible that it would have been better.
In addition, the ekranoplan MAY take off in an airplane high.
KB Alekseeva with his death in Soviet times began to degrade, because it is, formally, a sailor’s, and sailors are incredulous in aviation. Again, the requirements of the register, in my opinion there only anchors almost relied on a ton, based on the displacement.
And for aviation ekranoplan competitor.

[seregin-s1]

Still Tu 204 or 214? Ulyanovsk or Kazan? In Kazan, new airplanes are made for the Moscow Region and the Arctic Ocean.

[rocket757]

According to the online registry of Russian aircraft, at least 30 Tu-204/214 in passenger modifications are currently in storage.

I wonder why they are in storage, and not carry passengers?
In general, they speak well of the aircraft, though they believe that it is somewhat outdated, according to a number of indicators ???
so what's the trick, why is it outdated? Yes, another question is not idle ... but with the engines we deal with it HOW? Again Ukrainian stand? Is there a replacement for them?
In short, there are more and more questions ...

[16329]

PS90m are standing there, and where is Ukraine?

[seregin-s1]

Perm engines PS-90A. Eat too much.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: seregin-s1

Perm engines PS-90A. Eat too much.

And the resource is not enough ...
This made it possible to use the design potential and increase the PS-90A engine resources since 1993. until 1997 in stages from 1000 to 5000 hours.
Foreign analogues have a resource of 20-25 thousand hours.

The main engine building asset of the French commercial aircraft group is Snecma. Since the late 70s. Over 26 thousand CFM56 engines have already been produced, which are now operated under the wing of more than 11 thousand airliners. Boeing 737 and Airbus A320, including their numerous, including military options. Engine life has already exceeded 630 million hours, and the record of "life" belonging to the engine of the CFM56 family, is over 50 thousand hours without removal from the wing.

[Genry]

Quote: seregin-s1

PS-90A. Eat too much.

They guzzle tolerantly.
The problem is that the Tu-204/214 itself is very heavy (max takeoff 108t.). Compare with the MS-21 (max take-off 80t.), With the same payload and with superiority of the MS-21 in range (with the same load).
But the question of the concept of application can be different. You can patrol with a lighter / more economical aircraft (Il-114 ...), and on the basis of the Tu-204 you can already fly out for a direct hunt.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Genry

They guzzle tolerantly.

We, as an oil-producing state, should not care about appetite, the main thing is power.

[Genry]

Quote: Ingvar 72

We, as an oil-producing state, should not care about appetite, the main thing is power.

Is there a video clip with the phrase: "Uncle Petya, you do not care?"

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: Genry

They guzzle tolerantly.

We, as an oil-producing state, should not care about appetite, the main thing is power.

Have you ever been to the north?
Where is oil extracted?
oil do you think this is a freebie? How to scoop up water from the river?

how many people are there, well, they just don’t understand anything in the world, are wider than the slogan - they didn’t even try to look at the world ...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: SovAr238A

oil do you think this is a freebie? How to scoop up water from the river?

We get it at the cost of production, and not at the market price. And this is a freebie. Do not cling to words.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Quote: SovAr238A

oil do you think this is a freebie? How to scoop up water from the river?

We get it at the cost of production, and not at the market price. And this is a freebie. Do not cling to words.

Who gets at cost?
Do you understand the process of oil production?
The process of processing it before shipping?
The fuel conversion process?
Fuel logistics by place of consumption?
fuel storage?

Do you really think that the state just took oil at cost and oppa - here you have free kerosene for all the country's planes ... take a walk, have fun ...
You are also far from the people ...

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: SovAr238A

Do you understand the process of oil production?

My brother-in-law works in the oil industry as a middle manager. So I do not need about the structure and processes.

Quote: SovAr238A

here's a free kerosene for all the planes in the country

Why are you exaggerating? Freebies are also called cheapness, and aviation kerosene for Russia is cheaper than for any European country. This is what I meant by the word freebie.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Ingvar 72

Why are you exaggerating? Freebies are also called cheapness, and aviation kerosene for Russia is cheaper than for any European country. This is what I meant by the word freebie.

They lie to you ... about a freebie and cheapness.

[Ingvar 72]

I myself can count.

[Kurare]

Quote: rocket757

so what's the trick, why is it outdated?

The plane is overweight. At one time and for him there were requirements for landing on unequipped airfields, i.e. Fatically on the primer. The same Boing 737 is not capable of this and that is easier. Next, two pilots + a flight engineer, which is also not profitable for airlines. PS-90 engines are somewhat outdated.

At one time, the Navy "rejected" an PLO aircraft based on the Tu-214 because of its excessively high loitering speed. Apparently, the opinion has changed, and maybe the equipment has become more efficient.

[rocket757]

Quote: Kurare

At one time, the Navy "rejected" an PLO aircraft based on the Tu-214 due to

Thank. More, less clear.
The best thing to look for is an airship ... but it carries it here and not where you need it right now.
And this plane is a kind of compromise, possibly temporary.

[Vadim Zhivov]

I also recall the speed of barrage and in my opinion something else .... So deja vu ...

[Rzzz]

Quote: Kurare

PS-90 engines are somewhat outdated.

For some reason, CFM56, developed around the same years on the basis of an even more ancient CF6, is not considered obsolete.

By the way, it is not Snecma itself that produces the motor, but the CFM International alliance, which includes Snecma and GE on equal terms.

[donavi49]

Not needed.

1) Significantly more expensive in terms of flight costs than alternatives (A and B).
2) A huge, or rather giant, or rather breaking all the problem with downtime. If the board breaks, then he can wait a month for a part. While A or B reached the hub, they can return in 3-12 hours, or within 2-3 days (if really rare something broke). Actually, the same problem is with the CCG. However, in tu - it manifests itself at times more strongly, in view of the issue of release.

Plus, a number of operators' companies stupidly went bankrupt. Well, on the secondary, even for 3 kopecks, nobody needs it.

[Sapsan136]

Now airlines have obliged to have additional aircraft as backup ones so that they can quickly transport passengers in case of technical problems at the main side, so that under this law some planes will always stand, waiting for emergency on the main machines .. Engines on the Tu-204 are domestic are made in the city of Perm .. US Air Force use a similar plane, Poseidon ...

[seregin-s1]

Must carry buoys, mines, torpedoes. The design will have to be completely changed. It is unlikely that those that are funny will do.

[Strashila]

"created on the basis of the Tu-204 passenger liner.", ditched to please the Superpuperjet.

[Servisinzhener]

You are wrong because these are airplanes of various purposes. What can be seen even from the maximum take-off mass, which the Superjet is half as much. If anyone was killed, then the Tu-334, not the Tu-204. Although the refusal to use it in airlines was influenced by the fact that it loses in the cost of operation to similar western aircraft.

[bars1]

All the same, we have a residual attitude towards naval aviation. On the good it would be necessary to replace the entire fleet of PLO aircraft. "Re-equipment" is not a priori aimed at replacing the entire fleet

[Genry]

Quote: bars1

For good, you need to replace the entire fleet of PLO aircraft.

I think that in this matter they use a pragmatic approach (Americans too): what is more profitable - to modernize or purchase a new one.
True, there is still a question of urgent need - then time is more important, at any cost.

[Alex_59]

The sleep of reason. Even 10-15 years ago, Tupolev offered such a plane, but then it was decisively rejected. Years passed. Already preparing for the series at times more modern MS-21. And the Moscow Region decides to start designing a promising anti-submarine based on the almost dead Tu-204 ... If there is an MS-21, which needs orders like air and can become the locomotive of our generally dying aircraft industry. Because no-one will ever buy a Tu-204 from a civilian one, and MS can buy it. So why not support it with state order ???
I don’t know what to do with it ... Apparently EVERYONE needs to be changed up there.

[Genry]

Quote: Alex_59

preparing for the series at times the more modern MS-21. And the Moscow Region decides to start designing a promising anti-submarine based on the almost dead Tu-204 ...

Here Moscow is guided by its motives. Will the Tu-204 constantly patrol or just fly out to hunt? The cheap Tu-204 is more suitable for downtime on the ground, ready to take off (patrolling is more effective on slow-moving vehicles such as Il-38, Il-114 ...). And the more expensive MS-21 is for regular patrols with buoys and torpedoes.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Genry

Here Moscow is guided by its motives. Will the Tu-204 constantly patrol or just fly out to hunt? The cheap Tu-204 is more suitable for downtime on the ground, ready to take off (patrolling is more effective on slow-moving vehicles such as Il-38, Il-114 ...). And the more expensive MS-21 is for regular patrols with buoys and torpedoes.

I did not catch your idea well, but I can say for sure that for an hour of flight, the MS will exceed the TU in terms of costs in any possible options, simply by the fact that this is the next generation aircraft. And for life cycle cost too. A system of two aircraft of different types will be even more expensive. Therefore, the Ministry of Defense seems to be oriented really towards its own motives, namely, to make another loud statement in the style of "we're about to tear everyone up right now, wait a minute, another moment ..." then cut money for R&D and state in the end what to do based on the outdated 204 the PLO plane does not make sense. Profit in everything - the public was given the news of a cool new development, and the officials were given a new financial flow that can be straddled.

[Genry]

Quote: Alex_59

I can say for sure that for an hour of flight, the MS will surpass TU in terms of costs in any possible cases simply by the fact that it is the next generation aircraft.

Somewhere you skidded ....
Do not new aircraft do for the sake of increasing the efficiency / economy of operation?

Quote: Alex_59

A system of two different types of aircraft will be even more expensive.

The consumption of kerosene, spare parts and accessories is the biggest cost. And the number of aircraft does not double - you only need one hunter for several patrolmen.

Quote: Alex_59

then cut money on R&D

You do not quote the training manual. The recognition of the adherents of Failure is strong.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Genry

Do not new aircraft do for the sake of increasing the efficiency / economy of operation?

I say that MS will be more effective in any case.

Quote: Genry

The consumption of kerosene, spare parts and accessories is the biggest cost. And the number of aircraft does not double - you only need one hunter for several patrolmen.

All this took place already in Soviet times, only on the excessive inflation of the nomenclature of projects for ships and vessels. The increase in the number of projects entails an unjustified increase in costs, even without taking into account the production of aircraft. Each type of aircraft has its own range of spare parts, its own documentation, its own repair and maintenance technology, its own ground crews trained for their specific type of aircraft and the pilots are also trained for their own type. Therefore, all over the world they are following the path of unification of everything and everyone, where it is only permissible. Even fighters have already become "one", and you on PLO (a very secondary task) want two different aircraft. Even the wealthy USA has one Poseidon period.

Here is another illustrative example. For example, you have a budget for 200 aircraft. You bought 70 ones and 130 others. In the war, 70 of the first type were knocked out of you. Well, it happened ... Where are the pilots, technicians, stock of spare parts accumulated before the war? They are not suitable for the remaining 130 aircraft. Pilots need to be retrained, and spare parts only for re-melting.

Quote: Genry

You do not quote the training manual. The recognition of the adherents of Failure is strong.

And with us, anyone who criticizes the state automatically registers as followers of the Failure? Taboo for criticism?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Alex_59

And with us, anyone who criticizes the state automatically registers as followers of the Failure? Taboo for criticism?

And silence, brother Henry quietly left us ...

[Genry]

Quote: Alex_59

Each type of aircraft has its own nomenclature of spare parts, its own documentation, its own technology of repair and maintenance,.

The nomenclature of aircraft does not depend on the military, but on general needs, so the situation with spare parts and repairs will not be more complicated.

Quote: Alex_59

and pilots also trained each for their own type

Pilots at 99% training / education are ready to transfer to another aircraft of a similar purpose (it is clear that a bomber pilot will not board a fighter).

Quote: Alex_59

Even fighters have already become "one", and you on PLO (a very secondary task) want two different aircraft.

You do not want to understand that we are talking about patrolling, which scans not only the underwater area, but also the surface, with the identification of sea and air sides. In case of detection of the enemy, then it is possible to attract specialized hunters: on air, surface, underwater or missile carriers.

Quote: Alex_59

Pilots need to be retrained, and spare parts only for re-melting.

Don't exaggerate like that. Lost planes will be replenished with production or mobilized from the civilian sector.

Quote: Alex_59

And with us, anyone who criticizes the state automatically registers as followers of the Failure? Taboo for criticism?

Sweeping mud pouring is not criticism. Criticism is when specifically: what, where, when.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Genry

Pilots are 99% prepared / trained to transfer to another aircraft of a similar purpose

When was the last time you retrained from one type to another type of aircraft?

Quote: Genry

You do not want to understand that we are talking about patrolling, which scans not only the underwater area, but also the surface, with the identification of sea and air sides.

Even in Soviet times, the basic patrol aircraft were not sent to just wind circles over the ocean burning kerosene. Who's scanning what, I don't know. My uncle served in the Black Sea Fleet and was engaged in the maintenance of the Ka-25 based on the anti-ship missiles "Moscow" and "Leningrad", and even then the tactics of the work of PLO aviation was point-blank. Ideal when taking contact from a surface ship. If the flights to search for the primary contact were carried out, then it was also not in areas, but in the area of ​​the expected presence of the enemy. The helicopter is still all right, it has a lowered GAS, and the plane, in order to find someone in addition to kerosene, also has to scatter buoys. Each buoy costs like an apartment in Moscow. And in order to identify something there, transponders and transponders have long been invented, and other means of reconnaissance give a general idea of ​​the situation - from satellites to ZGRLS. Nobody wants to burn kilotons of kerosene in vain, including rich Americans.

Quote: Genry

Lost planes will be replenished with production or mobilized from the civilian sector.

How far are you from aviation and engineering education, I already realized, thanks. :-)

[Genry]

Quote: Alex_59

When was the last time you retrained from one type to another type of aircraft?

Maybe you all my biography and the key to the apartment, where ....
I have already indicated that the type of aircraft does not change - the name of the model changes. The pilot has the whole amount of theoretical knowledge, flight skills, spatial orientation, electronic equipment used, tactics ... In mobilization conditions, with a competent instructor, it is possible in a few hours.

Quote: Alex_59

My uncle served in the Black Sea Fleet and was engaged in the maintenance of the Ka-25 based on the anti-ship missiles "Moscow" and "Leningrad", and even then the tactics of the work of PLO aviation was point-blank.

Your uncle only heard what was not covered by the neck. For example, I know that the flights of Tu-22 scouts to determine the places of movement of aircraft carriers were held under the "secret" restrictions.

Quote: Alex_59

in order to find someone in addition to kerosene, buoys must also be scattered.

A patrol plane, almost all the time, conducts a passive search with special equipment: magnetometric, thermal imaging, ..... Buoys are used for active sonar search, when there are signs of the presence of an object and targeting / hunting begins.

Quote: Alex_59

in order to identify something, transponders and transponders were invented long ago,

A transponder is an active beacon that transmits an open signal with information from a carrier object. He himself announces his location and characteristics for the safety of public traffic and the exchange of information with the zone dispatcher.
Turning off the transponder, the object goes into invisibility mode (if you are not guided by other means) and you can do various dirty tricks.
No need to use terms whose purpose you do not know.

Quote: Alex_59

Each buoy is like an apartment in Moscow.

They are then collected.
All high-tech military equipment is worth it .....

Quote: Alex_59

Nobody wants to burn kilotons of kerosene for nothing, including wealthy Americans.

American patrols constantly fly ...

Quote: Alex_59

How far are you from aviation and engineering education, I already realized, thanks.

The level of your "understanding" clearly shows your "level" of preparation and development.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Genry

Your uncle only heard what was not covered by the neck. For example, I know that the flights of Tu-22 scouts to determine the places of movement of aircraft carriers were held under the "secret" restrictions.

Prior to the transfer to Ka-25, my uncle served in the TECh of the 943rd MCI, the Oktyabrskoye airfield, and the colonel. Departures of the Tu-22x to search for the AUG is directly his business. It’s a pity that now he can’t tell anything ...

Quote: Genry

No need to use terms whose purpose you do not know.

I’m a radio engineer, so I used the word transponder exactly as I intended.

Quote: Genry

American patrols constantly fly ...

They fly, but combat sorties are made on a tip from SOSUS or surface ships. Well, they are rich. They can.

Quote: Genry

The level of your "understanding" clearly shows your "level" of preparation and development.

All life is connected with airplanes and aviation. It happened. They don’t give a fly, they didn’t go out with health, but they brought tails to the planes at the airdrome, it was the case.

Quote: Genry

A patrol plane, almost all the time, conducts a passive search with special equipment: magnetometric, thermal imaging

On the topic I recommend Artemyev's book "Il-38 against missile submarines." You can continue to send me rays of hatred personally, but read the book. There's a lot there. And about the primary contact, and about the magnetometers. Directly at first hand. Without parade and bravura applications from the press services of the ministries. Very interesting reading.

[Servisinzhener]

I think due to the fact that the Tu-204 is already there and quite a few standing idle. And buying them from different owners will be cheaper than buying new MS-21s. In addition, the MS is only preparing for mass production.

[Alex_59]

Quote: Servisinzhener

I think due to the fact that the Tu-204 is already there and quite a few standing idle. And buying them from different owners will be cheaper than buying new MS-21s. In addition, the MS is only preparing for mass production.

To begin with, what a PROSPECT combat aircraft to do on the basis of second-hand obsolete aircraft in an incomprehensible technical condition is exactly five. We can thereby stand on a par with Algeria or Cambodia. And someone, after all, will have to examine these boards and sign that they are reliable after many years of downtime and exploitation by civilians ... I would not have signed such a document, I do not want to go to jail.
Secondly, it’s really cheaper if you talk linearly. But if we talk more flexibly, the creation of a PLO aircraft based on the MS-21 is not just a purchase of a PLO aircraft, it is also an investment in the future of its aviation. This is support for the project of the latest aircraft, and support is not only monetary, but also reputational. Let everyone see that the Russians are making their military aircraft on the basis of their latest liner - that means they trust in its quality and reliability, because the military usually wants a stronger one and with a guarantee. The same Tu-204 was not in vain trying to support the purchase of presidential and other special aircraft. That's the way to do it, but the Tu-204 is already the last day, that's all with it. This is very sad, but ... Let's work on!

In addition, the MS is only preparing for mass production.

just as long as they create the aircraft, the PLO MS will go into series.

[Pete mitchell]

Quote: Alex_59

In addition, the MS is only preparing for mass production.

just as long as they create the aircraft, the PLO MS will go into series.

I agree with you: while they prepare the combat system, the MS will go into production. There will be another reason to rush manufacturers and inspire to speedy localization of the aircraft in the Russian Federation. The choice of MS gives a lot of advantages: spare parts, training, reserve ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alex_59

And the Moscow Region decides to start designing a promising anti-submarine based on the almost dead Tu-204 ... If there is an MS-21, which needs orders like air and can become the locomotive of our generally dying aircraft industry.

As soon as the MO orders something based on the MC-21, you can put an end to the passenger version of the aircraft.
For all imported components for the aircraft will immediately fall under sanctions. Were there few problems with raw materials for the wing?
And localization is not an option - because a fully localized passenger aircraft will be golden (simply due to the fact that a large series is always cheaper than a small one - so that domestic materials and components "only for MS-21" will be more expensive than imports, which are made in volumes "for all similar aircraft ").
That is, either we localize the MS-21 and the MO becomes its sole customer. Or MO does not touch the MS-21 - and then the Pax has a chance.

[Servisinzhener]

By the way, yes. MS-21 has a lot more foreign suppliers than Tu-204. Moreover, the Tu-204 for some items has two suppliers - Russian and foreign.

[glasha3032]

And the foreign one is who? What aggregates or systems?

[Servisinzhener]

Tu-204 https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ту-204#Supplier cooperation
The MC-21 has electronic equipment suppliers Honeywell, Thales and Elbit Systems. Hydraulics Eaton

[Alex_59]

Quote: Alexey RA

As soon as the MO orders something based on the MC-21, you can put an end to the passenger version of the aircraft.

Then I congratulate the far-sighted government of our country, because we were led into a situation in which, in principle, it is impossible for us to get a single military plane, except for purely military vehicles. It is impossible to build on the basis of civilians because of sanctions; you cannot do your own because of the collapse of cooperation in the aviation industry. Arrived.
Where can I get a replacement for numerous aircraft like Tu-134UBL, Tu-134SUS, Il-20, Il-22, Il-38, Tu-134Sh, An-2, An-38, etc.? For potential friends, aircraft of similar designations are always versions of civilian aircraft.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Alex_59

Then I congratulate the far-sighted government of our country, because we were led into a situation in which, in principle, it is impossible for us to get a single military plane, except for purely military vehicles.

There are two options - either to revive the Il-96 "only for the Ministry of Defense", or to make it the base aircraft Il-76.

[mark1]

Attaching the boards left without work is good, but as always half measures. Correctly above indicate a disadvantage - high speed barrage. It is necessary to change the engines. The soon-to-appear PD-14s are also not quite suitable because of the same high cruising speed, so the revival of the NK-93 is necessary - its cruising speed is lower. profitability is higher. NK-38ST is the 93rd analogue for pumping gas, it is produced in a small series, so we still need to decide and take a logical and correct step towards the production of full-fledged NK-93.

[mark1]

But I would go even further in this matter and use the engine above the wing scheme instead of the engine under the wing scheme (the wing modification is not that great and the scheme has already been tested at TsAGI), which would improve the safety conditions for takeoff and landing. the bottom of the wing, on the same structural elements, it was possible to arrange the suspension points of the weapons.

[Grits]

Quote: mark1

But I would go even further in this matter and use the engine above the wing scheme instead of the engine under the wing scheme (the wing modification is not that great and the scheme has already been tested at TsAGI), which would improve the safety conditions for takeoff and landing. the bottom of the wing, on the same structural elements, it was possible to arrange the suspension points of the weapons.

The lift of the aircraft is increased if the air flow is "blown" under the leading edge of the lower wing of the aircraft. Or "sucked" from the trailing edge of the upper wing of an aircraft. Therefore, the rearrangement of the engines from the lower part of the wing to the upper part is not a simple rearrangement of the places of the terms. "For the" sum "will change.

[mark1]

The speed of the incoming flow in the upper part of the wing just influences the lifting force. An-72 to help you.

[Grits]

Quote: mark1

The speed of the incoming flow in the upper part of the wing just influences the lifting force. An-72 to help you.

Everything is correct. And if you put the engines on top, then you need to move them back from the wing, so that the flow "sucked" from the upper edge of the wing. But at the same time, the alignment of the aircraft will begin to be disrupted and a lot more. Since it is designed for engines below, with airflow under the wing. Which are trying to take out as far forward as possible in front of the wing. An-72 was originally designed for engines from above. To take off from unpaved and snow-covered airfields.

[mark1]

Sasha, don't bother with any bullshit. TsAGI checked everything, the alignment will not be disturbed, they just were from below, they were on top ... business then ... (well, if with very large strokes.) Out of 3M "Buranonosets" they made ... and here ...
All the same, the planes will be dismantled almost to the "skeleton" at the plant.

[Genry]

Quote: Gritsa

An-72 was originally designed for engines from above. In order to take off from unpaved and snowy airfields.

Engines from above - precisely to increase the lifting force of the wing.
You do not correctly imagine the work of the wing. The main option, with the least resistance, when the air flow at the top of the wing has a higher speed than at the bottom - then there is a pressure difference, called lift. This is provided by a profile lengthening the upper plane, which creates a speed difference ....
If in doubt, take two sheets of paper in two hands, in parallel, at a distance of 5 cm and blow between them. They will begin to converge, because the faster the flow, the lower the pressure in it.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: mark1

The speed of the incoming flow in the upper part of the wing just influences the lifting force. An-72 to help you.

Coanda effect?
It was just on the An-72 that they found out that there are also problems with this arrangement of engines - above the roof. On an experimental machine:

The tests also revealed some problems with the practical use of the "highlight" of the project - the Coanda effect. The actual flight conditions differed from the model and bench conditions. The adhesion of the jet to the wing was uneven and depended on flight conditions and external conditions (especially tailwind). In search of a solution that ensures the stability of the effect, the shape of the rear of the engine nacelles and reverse flaps was changed several times. If one of the engines failed, special attention was required from the pilots - the plane immediately tried to roll over on its back due to the arising difference in lift forces on the right and left wings. To compensate for the roll, the release of spoilers was introduced on the opposite wing.

After fulfilling all the requirements of the MGA in range and carrying capacity:

The mention of the Coanda effect now caused only a grin - its role in creating the lifting force was only 5-7%, and the wing itself was provided by the increased area itself.

[mark1]

Yes, God is with him, with this Coanda effect (if only from a part). Just to exclude all sorts of unnecessary things from getting into the air intake during take-off and landing from (let's say) a not very well-tidy military airfield + it becomes possible to suspend all kinds of weapons to the same power units under the wing, etc. etc. Why would you hang the same buoys, bombs, torpedoes, KR on a passenger liner?
I repeat, the airplane then before becoming the base patrol will be dismantled at the factory before power-up, and given that the time until 2030 to put it mildly until fig, why not perform a larger modernization.
But I hasten to reassure you and everyone - no one will do this because it will be necessary to move the tail unit higher, but probably no one will dare to such a large-scale modernization.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: mark1

But I would go even further in this matter and use the engine above the wing scheme instead of the engine under the wing scheme (the wing modification is not that great and the scheme has already been tested at TsAGI), which would improve the safety conditions for takeoff and landing. the bottom of the wing, on the same structural elements, it was possible to arrange the suspension points of the weapons.

What for?

PLO aircraft are very expensive weapons.
They, like bombers and scouts, should be based on excellent airfields, with excellent infrastructure and excellent staff.
With fast logistics of consumables and spare parts.
But this is nothing and will not be at unpaved airfields.
Therefore, to require ground preparation from such an aircraft is shooting yourself in the foot.

[mark1]

Quote: SovAr238A

They, like bombers and scouts, should be based on excellent airfields,

Have you ever been to these airfields? Americans, for example. when in the 90s they came to us, before that they demanded extra. cleaning and tried to taxi strictly along the axis of GDP and taxiing.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: mark1

Quote: SovAr238A

They, like bombers and scouts, should be based on excellent airfields,

Have you ever been to these airfields? Americans, for example. when in the 90s they came to us, before that they demanded extra. cleaning and tried to taxi strictly along the axis of GDP and taxiing.

Absolutely normal requirements.

The world has changed.

Before. 40 years ago, according to a whole protocol and scenario, I vacuumed an apartment, once a week.
And now I have floor cleaning every day - this is done by rumba-yumba.

[mark1]

Do not confuse your floor with a military airfield. And the quality of our GDP is not high at many civilian airfields.

[Pete mitchell]

Modern western aircraft, including the front line, require asphalt pavement. Perhaps only pensioners tornado and F-5 are less demanding. And in the territory of the former Union, most of the strips of plates, 2 classes. Therefore, when they flew to Lipetsk: the condition of the lanes and taxiways led them to despondency, they taxied strictly in the center and slowly.

[Genry]

Quote: mark1

it is nevertheless necessary to decide and make a logical and correct step towards the production of full-fledged NK-93

NK-93 is just a concept of a turbo-fan engine. There, the old NK-12 kotopotirovanny for a new fan design. And they did not solve the problem with the gearbox.
For a new economical engine, there you need to take the power unit from the PD-14 generation.

[mark1]

Quote: Genry

There the old NK-12 kotopotirovanny for a new fan design

This is a completely different engine with a different number of stages and gear (you have mixed up the history of creation and the real result).

Quote: Genry

For a new economical engine, there you need to take the power unit from the PD-14 generation.

One plug is high rated cruising speed.

Quote: Genry

NK-93 is just a concept of a turbo-fan engine.

NK-93 is a living engine (aka NK-38ST), and the concept is a gear scheme

[Genry]

Quote: mark1

This is a completely different engine with a different number of stages and gearbox.

You didn’t give the formulas ...
His novelty is only in over-contouring. The biotic scheme of the gearbox is directly borrowed from the NK-12.

Quote: mark1

NK-93 is a living engine (aka NK-38ST), and the concept is a gear scheme

NK-38 is a gas pumping compressor. To the non-flying NK-93, it has only relative similarity (other requirements).

Quote: mark1

One plug is high rated cruising speed.

I talked only about the power unit in the context of NK-93.

[mark1]

Quote: Genry

You didn’t give the formulas ...

Do you need? The number of steps in KND 7 and 14 is two times different, but you yourself know this.

Quote: Genry

NK-38 is a gas pumping compressor. To the non-flying NK-93, it has only a relative similarity (other requirements)

It is quite a workable likeness. Of course, the NK-93 must be brought to mind, not for as long and expensive as it seems, and the excuse is not bad ...
PD-18 oh how it does not appear soon.

[Genry]

Quote: mark1

The number of steps in KND 7 and 14 is two times different, but you yourself know this.

So you are a professor of aircraft engine building ...
Although, thanks to you, I’ve penetrated a little:
НК-93: 2р_7-8=1-1-3 (трёхвальный)
NK-12: 2p_14 = 5 (single-shaft)
But despite the progressive design of the NK-93 power unit in relation to the NK-12, it will be much inferior to the PD-14 in temperature and compression in the chamber, which determines the economy.

Quote: mark1

NK-93 must be brought to mind

Nobody needs it (NK-93). Passed stage ... There are more promising solutions that will go to PD-35.

Quote: mark1

PD-18 oh how it does not appear soon.

He is unlikely to appear. There is a PS-90A1 without any gears.

[mark1]

[quote = Genry] So you're a professor of aircraft engine-building ... [/ quote]
So take it higher - a professor of near-milking sciences, which in other things I do not hide.
[quote=Genry]НК-93: 2р_7-8=1-1-3 (трёхвальный)
NK-12: 2p_14 = 5 (single-shaft) [/ quote]
Duc and this, in general, I knew. Why are you doing this? Do you compare the length?
[quote = Genry] it will be much inferior to PD-14 in temperature and compression in the chamber, which determines the economy. [/ quote]
fuel consumption PD-14 at a cruising speed of 0,53 -NK-93 -0,49
I come from this open data. What kind of them are you?
[quote = Genry] There are more promising solutions that will go to PD-35 [/ quote]
Still would! How many years have passed !. Someone managed to be born and die! And how many more will be born and die! And what does PD-35 have to do with it, then speak for PD-18.
[quote = Genry] Nobody needs it (NK-93). [/ quote
But you got to the very point (don’t you make friends with Khristenko?)

[quote = Genry] There is a PS-90A1 without any gears. [/ quote]
There are warriors chose him. For a long time. It's a pity.

[Genry]

Quote: mark1

Why are you doing this? Do you compare the length?

It’s just that you wrote that KND is twice as different, but in fact - you are confused - they are close.

Quote: mark1

fuel consumption PD-14 at a cruising speed of 0,53 -NK-93 -0,49

You compare warm and soft. Need specific characteristic fuel / (cargo * kilometer).
Moreover, they often confuse places in cruising and take-off modes.
I just know that PD-14 has a higher compression - this increases the temperature and energy efficiency of the fuel (more complete combustion in a short time in the combustion chamber).

Quote: mark1

And what does PD-35 have to do with it, then speak for PD-18.

PD-18 is uninteresting due to the low usefulness of the gearbox and the increase in problems (repairs).
Denis Manturov: PD-14 line of generators will move to PD-12 and PD-8
https://aviation21.ru/denis-manturov-linejka-generatorov-pd-14-budet-dvigatsya-k-pd-12-i-pd-8/

Quote: mark1

But you got to the very point (don’t you make friends with Khristenko?)

What are you talking about? Although all by. Maybe you wanted a different surname ... but hands ....

Quote: mark1

There are warriors chose him. For a long time. It's a pity.

A good engine, it is constantly being upgraded. Here for the IL-96-400 will be tenacious and powerful PS90A3M.

[mark1]

Quote: Genry

It’s just that you wrote that KND is twice as different, but in fact - you are confused - they are close.

Well, yes, of course, 7 and 14 are very close values ​​(5 for arithmetic!) Or have you added 8 more steps of KVD (KSD who as you consider)? Yes, my friend, I’ve bitten a sour cabbage soup like a dinner ...

Quote: Genry

You compare warm and soft. Need specific characteristic fuel / (cargo * kilometer).

But you don’t think so. what is this airplane characteristic and not how not for the engine? Once again bon appetit!

Quote: Genry

consumption at cruising and take-off modes.

I do not confuse, bother and look at the characteristics.

Quote: Genry

PD-18 is uninteresting due to the low usefulness of the gearbox and the increase in problems (repairs).

How are you going to increase the thrust up to 18-20 tons on the basis of the PD-14 gas generator? PD-35 is also gear - did not know? The whole world is now using a gearbox and an ultrahigh bypass ratio.

Quote: Genry

What are you talking about? Although all by. Maybe you wanted a different surname ... but hands ...

About that, you understand ... And what does your potential friend and my hands have to do with it?

Quote: Genry

A good engine, it is constantly being upgraded. Here for the IL-96-400 will be tenacious and powerful PS90A3M.

They are good and reliable, and therefore suitable for side 1, but for the promising new IL-96-400, they are decently outdated by economy (although if measured in kg / ton-kilometers in general, it may fail by priority)

[dgonni]

The Union, with all its might, sawed IL-38 for seven years. And I’m even scared to imagine how much they will cut the budget for the new anti-submarine. About ten years no less. And not the fact that he will then be in combat-ready form.
P.S. Do we already have normal buoys?

[donavi49]

So in the news optimistic 10 years and declared.
The exact timing of the start of production of new aircraft unknownBut previously statedthat planes should appear before 2030.

[lopuhan2006]

Each correctly asked question has a 50% answer!) The point is to create a new aircraft if there is no promising equipment for it. In the meantime, Novella to help. But now, since 204/214 it has become hot, and Kazan needs to be provided with work. Companies do not need them, because they are uncompetitive (low engine life, disgusting logistics, three crew members instead of two, exorbitant waiting times for spare parts, piece release, heavy, etc.). And for a warrior will do. Why make a fuss of the A-40 and Be-200 with Ukrainian engines, when the finished 30 pieces are worth it. Only 204/214 are not suitable for PLO for the same reasons. In the current realities, a new one is needed, but here it just smells of the next development and lobbying by a strong Tatarstan.

[Servisinzhener]

And even then, the IL-38 had problems with the operation of anti-submarine equipment. (IL-38 was dedicated to one of the issues of the magazine Aviation and Time)

[exo]

There is simply no other base. And the example of the American "Poseidon" additionally convinces of the correctness of the decision. At the same time, there is no problem with the engines.
The same, IL-114, is small for these tasks.

[Genry]

Quote: exo

IL-114, small for these tasks.

New digital equipment (Novella?) Allows you to shove everything .... For patrolling, you can not arm with torpedoes and, if necessary, call a hunter in the form of a Tu-204 or ....
http://alternathistory.com/kasatka-dlya-morskogo-ila-proekt-patrulnogo-samoleta-il-114mp-rossiya/

[Servisinzhener]

To answer exactly, you need to know the weight of anti-submarine equipment. Because the IL-114 has a ferry range of 5100 km, but the range with a maximum number of passengers is 2000 km. And with a range of 2000 km, it is suitable for patrolling relatively small water areas. Baltic, Black, White Sea. Or near Vladivostok and Petropavlosk-Kamchatsky.

[Vladimir1155]

t Barents ....... and where else do you need to patrol taking into account the shoulder fighter cover?

[Servisinzhener]

Along the coast of the Primorsky Territory, the Kuril Islands, Kamchatka, and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. There are considerable distances there. And for the Il-114MP, an action of 300 km from the airfield is declared. Of course, a range of 4500 tons was declared there. But in this case, there may be places where he can fly for a very short period of time.

[Vladimir1155]

an even shorter period of time there could be those 3 BODs that are on the Pacific Fleet .... so there is no alternative to PLO aircraft, in general the plane does not need to be there ...... it only needs to fly there with the equipment on.

[Servisinzhener]

But it is not optimal to put sonar stations in the straits between on all the passages in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. And in this case, the IL-114MP will be very well suited to respond to the operation of such a station.

[Vladimir1155]

perhaps I hope it was established ........ there is only one strait without sea mines, the rest are not passable.

[Sapsan136]

Great news and a good choice. Tu-204 is a good industry-developed machine that has overcome everything (childhood diseases)

[Radical]

Quote: dgonni

The Union, with all its might, sawed IL-38 for seven years. And I’m even scared to imagine how much they will cut the budget for the new anti-submarine. About ten years no less. And not the fact that he will then be in combat-ready form.
P.S. Do we already have normal buoys?

The USSR "sawed" the Il-38 for seven years in accordance with the technologies available then, but then there was a state approach to these issues! Now technology is unlike the past, but the state approach is absent - "saw cut" remains.

[fa2998]

I don’t want to be immodest, but about 204 I wrote about two years ago, in the PLO variant. Well, there was noise, the IL-38 is all of us! It finally came!

[SovAr238A]

Quote: fa2998

I don’t want to be immodest, but about 204 I wrote about two years ago, in the PLO variant. Well, there was noise, the IL-38 is all of us! It finally came!

In 2005, the Tu-204P project was rejected by our Defense Ministry for good.
Even then, he was hopeless ...
and now it’s just another crow in the news ... And they’ll reject again.

[IL-18]

Quote: fa2998

was, Il-38 is our everything! Finally came!

Did I oversleep? IL-18 began to do again?

[AAK]

30 PLA ​​aircraft is the minimum need (in my opinion - 10 for the Northern Fleet and 20 for Pacific Fleet, taking into account the distribution in 3 regions - Chukotka, Kamchatka and Primorye). Is 2030 a delivery time for all 30 boards? At our pace, no more than 5 aircraft can be converted per year, plus time for crew training, and new equipment must be installed

[SovAr238A]

Quote: AAK

Yes, and equipment with weapons must be installed new

we have upgraded one Il-38 per Novella a year. and so in the end they didn’t modernize.

In a new way.
And it is also necessary to design it, to make the first copies, to test them. work out the technological process, then launch into mass production.


By the standards of modern development (from the moment of development to the first model)
Radar - 12 years
Torpedoes - 12-15 years old
Buoys - at least 5-8 years

And so in everything.
But there is nothing yet, for no one understands what to invent then?
will there be a plane or not, and if so, what and when?
And this is very important because ...

The same Poseidon received his vision around the mid-80s.
when the Pentagon began a discussion with aircraft manufacturers on the subject of the PLO aircraft of the future.

ИInvestigations by the US Navy to formulate requirements for the creation of a new patrol anti-submarine complex to replace the P-3 Orion under the Multi-Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) program began in the 1980s. The creation of MMA was carried out on a competitive basis in several stages since the beginning of the 1990s with the participation of Lockheed Martin and BAE Systems, which proposed new versions of the P-3 Orion 21 and Nimrod MRA4, respectively, as well as Boeing with a new development based on the Boeing turbofan narrow-body passenger aircraft 737-800.

The winner of the tender in May 2004 was Boeing, with which a month later a contract was signed worth $ 3,9 billion for the development of MMA. The first flight of the prototype took place in April 2009. The first production model was delivered to the U.S. Navy in March 2012.

They are to create a new aircraft. read the new complex of electronics, weapons - it took 30 years. all these 30 years everyone was doing business. developed a new avionics, new buoys, new torpedoes and much more.

And for our cocks - the year 2030 is already in the plans, they are going to do nothing from scratch in 10 years ...

[Servisinzhener]

This is if you develop new systems. But most likely they will deliver equipment similar to the Il-38N, which will significantly reduce the time.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Servisinzhener

This is if you develop new systems. But most likely they will deliver equipment similar to the Il-38N, which will significantly reduce the time.

And there will be a muddy bottom, there will be a bottom.
System from the 80s.
on those ideas, that element base. those algorithms.
And even longer. for the system in the Soviet Union has always been planned on the materials, components, and components available in industry.
Those. in fact, this system hails from the late 70s.
50 years later - to put such a stupid weapon - it’s the same as going to war with amers in with food rifles and cannons with muzzle loading.

[Servisinzhener]

I did not see the equipment that was put on the IL-38 when upgrading to IL-38N, so I can not say anything about the elemental base of this equipment. But I very much doubt that the REC “Novella” is assembled on 233 series microcircuits of the 70s.

[DWG1905]

If this is not another snowstorm. That pleases that merged the flying water bus. Berya people are good people, they would use their energy for “peaceful” purposes. Tu-214ON is fully certified and flew over the United States, this time. The second is believed in by only two people who are naive to the impossibility, they did it not because the engineer is not needed on board, but to save salaries, because in which case the insurance will cover losses, but do not give a damn about passengers and crew, capitalism however. Although in some airlines one of the onboard conductors in an emergency situation functions as an onboard engineer. I think if on 737 MAX there was an onboard engineer who knew the plane, then the probability of a catastrophe would be significantly lower. The third year of 2030 is a normal period first, research (3 years), then OCD (they will want it in 4, but this is not realistic, it will be exactly 7 years). And they are in storage of the Tu-204/214 because we have lost this market, there is no series, no components, etc. etc. In general, trade follows the flag, we can move competitors (physically) will buy from us. Although it is possible to create an airline flying on domestic aircraft within the country (at least the technical culture will be preserved and the production will slowly be promoted). We move the flag, it’s time to cook the goods.

[Zaurbek]

Could and make AWACS based on them ...

[Vladimir1155]

a completely matured and logical decision, keep it up, is better than meaningless UDC, battleship destroyers and other rubbish

[SKR-1135]

The era of IL-18 (20/22/38) is finally leaving.

[75 Sergey]

Why didn’t they take the SJ-100?