Military Review

Corvette project 11664: there are chances to get to the construction

183

Layout corvette Ave. 11664. Photo Bmpd.livejournal.com


In the interests of the Russian naval fleet new warships of all major classes are being developed, and several of these projects have recently been presented to the country's leadership. On January 9, an exhibition was held in Sevastopol on the prospects for the development of the Navy, during which all the major shipbuilding enterprises showed their latest products. Thus, Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation for the first time showed materials on the project of the 11664 corvette.

Premiere in Moscow


Promising prospect 11664 was developed by Zelenodolsk Design Bureau, which is part of Ak Bars Insurance Company. The ship’s layout was presented to the country's leadership by the chief engineer of the Zaliv factory in Kerch. Probably this particular enterprise is considered as a site for the construction of new ships. Together with the “11664” corvette, several other developments were demonstrated.

Like a number of other promising ships, the corvette pr. 11664 is an option of deep modernization of the frigate pr. 11661 "Cheetah", previously created Zelenodolsky design bureau. When creating a new project, the existing experience combined with modern ideas was used. In particular, the design uses ideas that correspond to the current trends in world shipbuilding.

From the ships of the previous project, the new corvette, pr. 11664, is distinguished by increased dimensions and displacement. The length increased to approximately 110 m, displacement - up to 2,5 thousand tons. It is noted that in connection with this, the new corvette turns out to be "a ship of the transitional class between the corvette and the frigate." A conditional definition of “small frigate” is also proposed.

The main differences from its predecessor are a different layout of electronic weapons, increased ammunition of the main strike weapons and more powerful air defense. Also provided is a permanent basing of a deck helicopter designed to carry out anti-submarine defense.


View from a different angle. Frame from t / n "Time", Channel One

The proposed "small frigate" has advantages over other ships of the existing types. So, he bypasses the "Cheetahs" in the number and effectiveness of weapons. Also, project 11664 is compared with patrol teams of project 11540. With comparable armament, the new corvette has almost half the displacement, which positively affects the cost of construction. According to Ak Bars Insurance Company, as a whole, the “11664” corvette has no equal in terms of the ratio of the main characteristics.

To date, Zelenodolsk Design Bureau completed the preparation of the technical design of the new corvette. If the Ministry of Defense orders such a ship, Ak Bars Corporation is ready to prepare the remaining documentation as soon as possible and begin construction. At the same time, there was a hint of readiness for mass production.

The main features


The presented layout and tabular data show the main features of the new project and allow us to evaluate some of its qualities. In general, the ship is similar to other domestic developments, but has significant differences - in some cases, they give advantages over other models.

Etc. 11664 uses a body of smooth contours, as similar as possible to that used in Project 11661. Probably, approaches to the design of part of the systems are preserved. The construction of the add-on is noteworthy. Like on a number of other ships, it is divided into several parts of different heights, and the middle one is given under the launchers of an attack rocket complex. On the aft part of the superstructure, which accommodates a hangar for a helicopter, there is an integrated mast with antenna devices - a characteristic feature of modern ships.

The type of power plant is not specified. At the Cheetahs, a combined installation with diesel and gas turbine engines is used. Probably a similar architecture is preserved in the project 11664.


Aft superstructure and deck. Frame from t / n "Time", Channel One

The composition of the corvette's armaments is interesting. On the tank in front of the superstructure is a tower artillery installation. Behind it, on a superstructure, is the Palma air defense missile and artillery complex. Near the hangar are two six-barreled anti-aircraft guns. The central part of the superstructure accommodates a universal vertical launcher with 16 cells for missiles of various types. Such launchers can use Onyx, Caliber, and, probably, perspective Zircon missiles.

The composition of electronic systems is not specified. Probably, the project uses modern samples of all the main classes, providing search and target detection, communication and electronic warfare.

Aft deck is made in the form of a landing pad for a helicopter; there is a hangar next to it in the superstructure. Helicopter type Ka-27 or similar dimensions can be based on the ship on an ongoing basis and perform various tasks.

Project Perspectives


The developer corporation has already prepared the technical design of the “11664” corvette and is ready to start construction in the shortest possible time - if there is interest from the customer. The Ministry of Defense has not yet announced its opinion on the new corvette. Accordingly, the real prospects of the project remain unknown.

In the presented form, project 11664 looks quite interesting and promising. Zelenodolsk Design Bureau on the basis of existing experience and turnkey solutions completed the ship with characteristic advantages over existing combat units. The new corvette will be able to surpass some of the "competitors" due to greater combat potential, and others due to economic advantages.


Models of new ships from SK "Ak Bars". Photo SK "Ak Bars" / sk-akbars.ru

The new project 11664 can be a modern replacement for older designs that have similar characteristics, but lose in combat qualities. According to the organization-developer, a promising corvette is able to replace both ships of its class and larger combat units.

However, you can find reasons to criticize the new project. The main problem of the new development is related to the general state of affairs in military shipbuilding. For the fleet, ships of different types with unified weapons are being built, and shipbuilding bureaus offer new projects. The construction of ships for all new projects simply does not make sense, since it leads to the unification of the fleet. For this reason, project 11664 will have to compete with other developments of its own and related classes.

Selection Issues


In the near future, the Ministry of Defense will have to familiarize itself with project 11664 and make its decision. If the project suits the fleet command, an order will appear for the development of the necessary documentation and subsequent construction. However, another development of events is possible in which the project will not be implemented in metal.

It should be noted that at the exhibition in Sevastopol, several other similar layouts were demonstrated. Ak Bars Insurance Company presented several options for further development of pr. 11661, including project 11664. They will also have to be proposed by the Ministry of Defense for evaluation, which may result in another order.

Thus, our armed forces are again offered several projects of promising warships. Thanks to this, the Navy gets the opportunity to choose the most successful models that more fully meet the requirements. Which of the recently submitted projects will be of interest to the Ministry of Defense, time will tell. Project 11664 has certain chances to reach the construction site, however, one should not show excessive optimism and overestimate its prospects.
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  1. rocket757
    rocket757 14 January 2020 18: 09
    +12
    Do we have a concept for the presence of our fleet in the vast or near the shore?
    Under it, after all, the fleet should be built.
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 14 January 2020 19: 27
      +5
      Here, one concept unfortunately is not enough! I would like the Fleet of the far sea zone, but who and Where will build it?
      We must proceed from the capabilities of shipbuilders and allied weapons.
      The project is definitely interesting in the presence of serious capabilities of the PLO, even more so - the main task of which is the PLO, to make another essentially "increased" RTOs - it makes no sense.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 14 January 2020 19: 50
        +1
        As always ideal, it is something complex, harmonious in content!
        BUT, as always, what we can create!
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 14 January 2020 20: 00
          +8
          I agree. If the Fleet is interested in this project, Zelenodolsk shipbuilders will do everything efficiently and without delaying the deadlines!
          I repeat once again - My opinion is needed only as a Corvette PLO.
          1. D16
            D16 14 January 2020 20: 28
            +5
            Will the Zeus shipbuilder also make shipbuilding facilities for him?
          2. bayard
            bayard 15 January 2020 04: 24
            +5
            Quote: Hunter 2
            My opinion is needed only as a Corvette PLO.

            Just like a PLO corvette. And what Zelenodolsk proposed is almost optimal if a towed GAS is available. "Cheetah" is an excellent base for the future corvette. Excellent hull, good power plant + reasonable line-up and a large (!) Ammunition load in the UKSK.
            What is not enough in this corvette is its air defense capabilities. But if you change the "Palm" to "Pantsir-M", it will be just an ideal ship of the near sea zone. Much better optimized for these tasks (PLO corvette and patrol) than 20380 and 20385.
            I was pleasantly surprised by the absence of overload in air defense (although here it is more likely to be underloaded, as I have already said), than the corvettes of recent times were sick. I repeat - if you replace "Palm" with "Shell" it will be a very sharp-toothed PLO ship of the near sea zone. 16 missiles in UKSK will make it possible to have 8 missile-torpedoes and 8 more anti-ship missiles and missiles for striking the coast. In any combination, depending on the supplied knowledge base.
            It is very interesting which HAC is supposed, whether the towed HAS and the capabilities of its radar are envisaged.
            And of course the GEM, will the former be about two diesels and one afterburner turbine, or have they provided for something else?

            In any case, I liked the ship, it is much better than what was offered and built earlier in this class. Taking into account that the air defense will be built on the "Pantsir".
            If the project is approved (with the necessary corrections), then the Zelenodolsk residents will probably be able to organize its mass production, moreover, at both of its plants (including Kerch) and quickly saturate the fleets with much-needed ships.
            At the beginning of the arrival of these corvettes into service, the already constructed corvettes of previous projects (20380 and 20385) can be brought together in one connection to one of the fleets for ease of operation, repair and maintenance. And saturate other fleets with this particular type of corvette, for uniformity and unification.
            By the way, the choice of this particular type of corvette (and, as a result, the meta of its construction - Zelenodolsk and Kerch) will allow Kaliningrad and Peter to unload to work on a more serious topic - the DMZ and OZ ships (22350 and 22350M). Then, the shipbuilding program of Russia will gain harmony, rationality, consistency and balance.
            And I repeat once again - with a good towed GAS and Pantsir-M air defense system, this corvette will be just ideal for the needs of our fleet.
            1. Cympak
              Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 03
              +3
              Air defense is weak, and 16 UKKS are unnecessary for the BMO corvette. The location on the ZRAK tank for our latitudes is extremely unsuccessful: it will flood and freeze during winter storms.
              The question is about the engines, which for the initial project 1166 were Ukrainian. And where did you divide the pipe? It seems that the pipe was removed, UKKS stuck.
              With such a weak air defense, why did they stick a "pagoda" over the hangar?
              IMHO, the presented layout is a poorly developed market item
            2. Nemchinov Vl
              Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 09
              +1
              Greetings Vitaliy hi .
              Can we and you wait ?! Or does someone (from shipbuilders) still sometimes glance at forums and discussions of VO ?! How long have you and Timokhin and I discussed something like this ... Will we get through ?!
              1. bayard
                bayard 15 January 2020 17: 59
                +1
                Greetings Vladimir! fellow
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Can we and you wait ?!

                I also thought about it when I saw the body of the Cheetah. We've been discussing this topic for almost a year - a PLO corvette based on the "Cheetah", but there were doubts about the power plant (after all, it is Ukrainian). Well, now, since they are offered, it means they are ready to solve this problem. Moreover, there is a turbine for this, a diesel engine is on the way, and gearboxes are beginning to be made. Therefore, they will cope.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Will we get through ?!

                Water sharpens a stone. The main thing is the clarity, clarity and visualization of the wording.
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                Or does someone (from shipbuilders) still sometimes glance at forums and discussions of VO ?!

                It is quite possible, although the idea was in the air - to take the best that was available and build the ship necessary for the fleet ... True, they ... sorted it out with "Flexible". Well, yes, you can see they shoved what they are already working with. And the mast behind the chimney is not at all the coat that is permissible in life. However, maybe it is from haste. The naval ones will still require the replacement of the "Flex" with the "Shell" and the mast to be moved. But if you take into account the changes that I have suggested below, this is ... a wonderful ship can turn out. Moreover, it is really a versatile person in its segment - a PLO corvette, a patrol and an escort in one bottle.
                What do you think ? wink
        2. Machito
          Machito 15 January 2020 02: 20
          +1
          In Zelenodolsk will produce model corvettes? I also want to buy one for the collection. laughing
      2. Tiksi-3
        Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 32
        +5
        Quote: Hunter 2
        to make another essentially “enlarged” RTO - it makes no sense.

        what is he mrk ??? .... real corvette
  2. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 14
    -15
    Oh, the boat! And what kind of helicopter is it? Kamov? So they seem to be optimized.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 14 January 2020 18: 18
      +4
      Does this somehow change the fact of the presence of spacecraft helicopters?)))
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 46
        -8
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Does this somehow change the fact of the presence of spacecraft helicopters?)))

        Will change. feel And something is silent about this.
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 18: 50
          +1
          What changed the takeover of McDonnell Douglas by Boeing?
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 58
            +9
            Quote: AS Ivanov.
            What changed the takeover of McDonnell Douglas by Boeing?

            I do not care about them from a high pillar. I am worried about our factories. Here, the enterprise where I plowed for 12 years:
            1. AU Ivanov.
              AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 19: 08
              +9
              Unprofitable, apparently? If the company's products are not in demand, why is it needed?
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 16
                -4
                Quote: AS Ivanov.
                Unprofitable, apparently?

                It was a branch of ZiL. For some reason, the Chinese have preserved and increased ...
                1. AU Ivanov.
                  AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 19: 25
                  +9
                  Let's remember what ZIL produced. Cave level cars? If the VAZ bought Renault Nissan and organized the production of more or less decent cars, then no one even gotten into ZIL - hopelessly.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: AS Ivanov.
                    Let's remember what ZIL produced.

                    Do you see the picture above? This is the first Chinese car factory that Soviet engineers built. Copy of ZIL.
                    1. Sergey1987
                      Sergey1987 15 January 2020 09: 29
                      0
                      Quote: Mordvin 3
                      Do you see the picture above? This is the first Chinese car factory that Soviet engineers built. Copy of ZIL.

                      So the Chinese were able to develop the plant, and all that they could do under the USSR was to turn it into a loss-making plant that no one even wanted to privatize.
                  2. bk0010
                    bk0010 15 January 2020 22: 10
                    +1
                    ZIL, like, sold to Mexico.
              2. strannik1985
                strannik1985 14 January 2020 20: 20
                -3
                Enterprises were profitable in the framework of the social economy.
                1. AU Ivanov.
                  AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 20: 24
                  -2
                  Social economics is itself a perversion. For some reason, our social economists believed that the Russian Vanka was worthy to ride on buckets with bolts, wear a towel and wipe himself with a newspaper.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 15 January 2020 05: 31
                    0
                    Social economics is itself a perversion

                    Tell that to the Americans, their "market" budget since 1963 has been in surplus for 2 whole years (1999-2000).
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 14 January 2020 22: 07
              +1
              Well, here are the results of your 12 years of activity at the enterprise - solid ruins.
        2. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 14 January 2020 18: 58
          +4
          Yes, they immediately said after connecting the topics they will continue to develop in parallel. what should they say then)
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 06
            -6
            Quote: carstorm 11
            yes they said right away

            What liquor products sell well?
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 28
              +2
              wine-vodka is for you in Red and White. firstly, we trade not only this, and secondly, the assortment is much wider and more correctly called alcoholic products. and so now we are increasingly investing in the production of this very product. why did you suddenly get interested in this?)
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 34
                -11
                Quote: carstorm 11
                why did you suddenly get interested in this?)

                I don’t give a damn. You are a huckster, and that’s it.
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 50
                  +9
                  Actually, I’m a manager with the required knowledge for each manager about financial indicators, strategy, marketing, business processes, personal effectiveness, using information technologies) I have two higher ones and an MBA degree), but you can call me whatever you like, this will not change my life )
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 53
                    -12
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    in general, I’m a manager with the knowledge required for each manager about financial indicators, strategy, marketing, business processes, personal effectiveness, the use of information technology) I have two higher ones and an MBA degree

                    In-in ... in a word - gouging. laughing
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 56
                      +5
                      Well, I just agree with this) that’s why I don’t drink because I have enough of my own dope) last year when my wife crashed into a stump on a snowmobile and called me the same) but it makes no sense to argue with her)
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 14 January 2020 19: 03
      +11
      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      Oh, the boat! And what kind of helicopter is it? Kamov? So they seem to be optimized.

      Does it change anything? Our traditional aviation was also optimized at UAC, bringing Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Yakovlev and others there. However, this does not prevent the production of both the MiG family and the Su family in parallel.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 10
        -7
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Does this change anything?

        Yes. Kaput Kamov.
        1. Sergey1987
          Sergey1987 15 January 2020 10: 12
          +1
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Yes. Kaput Kamov.

          Love I look to carry nonsense. Abolished in December 2019. JSC "Kamov" was merged with JSC "Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant", which was renamed into JSC "National Center for Helicopter Engineering named after ML Mil and NIKamov". So what is your logic and Milyu kaput? And the concern Russian Helicopters?
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 January 2020 10: 20
          +2
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Yes. Kaput Kamov.

          But has Ilyushin and MiG already arrived? They have been united in the UAC for 15 years already.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 15 January 2020 10: 28
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            But has Ilyushin and MiG already arrived? They have been united in the UAC for 15 years already.

            Here recently procurement plans published. Solid Mi and not a single Ka.
            Thus, the work of the Kamov Design Bureau on the creation of a promising high-speed helicopter was completely frozen. Instead, the Milians put up a sample based on their Mi-35 helicopter, having previously “stripped” it to improve aerodynamic qualities. In this form, it was accelerated to a speed of 400 km / h, which is significantly less than that of its American competitor Sikorsky S-97 Raider. At the same time, according to the Americans, as soon as the "Milevsky" promising helicopter receives at least some weapons and combat load, its speed will drop to 330-350 km / h, which is not much higher than its current parameters. Fresh competitive "Kamov" proposals within the framework of the "Speed" research and development project to study the control of the main rotor revolutions, in which the combination of "braking" the main rotor and increasing speed through the use of the newest Russian aircraft engine SM-100, could bring our helicopters to the previously unattainable in the world the threshold of 700 km / h, were frozen without any explanation.

            https://zen.yandex.ru/media/zavtra/kto-prizemliaet-kamovaunikalnoe-vertoletnoe-kb-pod-pressom-optimizacii-5dd96bd8bd6e064b370f09a9
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 15 January 2020 15: 18
              +1
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              Thus, the work of the Kamov Design Bureau on the creation of a promising high-speed helicopter was completely frozen.

              * looks thoughtfully at the Ka-60/62, which Kamovites sawed for a quarter of a century - and still could not bring to mind and fulfill the requirements of the customer’s requirements.
              Maybe it's not about intrigue? wink
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 15 January 2020 15: 27
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Maybe it's not about intrigue?

                I don’t know, but one thing is clear - there will definitely not be competition. And we run the risk of stagnation. Especially when you consider that this year not a single Kamov was ordered. Okay, we'll see. hi
          2. V.I.P.
            V.I.P. 15 January 2020 13: 58
            +1
            So what have Mig, Il, Yak done over these 15 years? IL 96 (the first flight of 1988) to which the numbers were again attached. The MiG-35 is also 29 (they increased the glider so that there would be enough fuel for a longer flight) which is especially not needed by anyone, even our MO. Yak -130 (first flight in 1995). Yak only MS 21 is trying to do. Well, when Su and Mig were united, then Pagosyan only financed SU and until he was kicked out, Mig was financed by the residual principle.
    3. Artemiy_2
      Artemiy_2 14 January 2020 19: 08
      +7
      Nobody Kamov will destroy as a KB. This was said 100 times
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 37
        -8
        Quote: Artemiy_2
        Ikto Kamova as a KB will not be eliminated.

        Yes, it was just optimized.
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 14 January 2020 20: 42
          +2
          Do not fight with windmills. Useless. Proven by Don Quixote. And accept condolences about the enterprise ... There are hundreds, if not thousands, and, unfortunately, their collapse has already passed from the category of tragedy to the category of statistics ...
          1. Sergey1987
            Sergey1987 15 January 2020 10: 13
            0
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            There are hundreds, if not thousands, and, unfortunately, their collapse has already passed from the category of tragedy to the category of statistics ...

            feel free to write millions. List in a studio with thousands.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  3. Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 18: 16
    +7
    There is a project of the corvette 20380/20385 why else do we need almost the same, etc. 1164, but also with weak air defense.

    We need a new IPC 1124 Albatross.
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 14 January 2020 19: 53
      +1
      There is a project corvette 20380/20385 why else do we need almost the same
      You can agree with you, but we are talking about Zelenodolsk - the plant is on the river, they cannot build large ships. It is quite possible to order a corvette for them, if he has a good PLO, but in any case it is better than the patrolmen they are building and better than the MRK.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 21
        +3
        Corvette Ave. 20380/20385 is already being built in a series, and it has much more balanced and powerful weapons with the same displacement as the proposed Ave. 11664.

        Project 20380/20385 has the "Polyment-Redut" air defense system, an analogue of the S-350, with a range of missiles of 100-150 km, and in the future up to 400 missiles which can hit all types of targets, and on the corvette of project 11664 Palma with range of 10 km.

        The corvettes, pr. 20380/20385, have anti-torpedo protection and a helicopter and several HAKs and ASGs and anti-ship weapons, in general, all that is needed to protect our near sea zone.

        And pr.11664 is some kind of misunderstanding with the Caliber, a floating battery, live until the first missile attack, Palm will hit a single target like an UAV or a helicopter or a cruise missile, but it can’t be repelled by a massive missile attack.

        Corvette pr.11664 for nothing the fleet does not need.

        Russia already has a series of corvettes, etc. 20380/20385 and they are simply excellent.

        If the plant needs an order - let them master this corvette project that has already gone into series.
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 14 January 2020 23: 59
          +5
          Project 20380/20385 has the "Polyment-Redut" air defense system, an analogue of the S-350, with a range of missiles of 100-150 km, and in the future up to 400 missiles which can hit all types of targets, and on the corvette of project 11664 Palma with range of 10 km.

          This is a fable, there will never be such air defense on these corvettes.
      2. jonht
        jonht 15 January 2020 03: 34
        0
        It seems like there was news that Zelenodolsk was transferred to the management of a plant in the Crimea, and it will become the basis for the construction of larger ships
    2. Tiksi-3
      Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 37
      +3
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      why else do we need almost the same, etc. 1164, but also with weak air defense.

      it is many times cheaper!
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 27
        +2
        it is many times cheaper


        A corvette without powerful air defense is not needed for nothing, there is no benefit from it, only we will destroy people and waste our resources in vain.

        If the Polyment-Redut air defense missile system and the Vodopad-NK anti-submarine and anti-torpedo complex are thrown out on avenue 20380, then it will also become cheaper, only there will be little benefit from it, it will no longer be a corvette, but a patrol ship.
        1. bayard
          bayard 15 January 2020 04: 57
          +1
          Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
          anti-submarine and anti-torpedo complex "Vodopad-NK"

          Did you mean "Packet-NK" correctly?
          For no "Waterfall" is observed on corvettes 20380 \ 20385.
          Were you interested in the capabilities of "Packet-NK"?
          In range?
          And do these characteristics allow effective anti-submarine warfare?
          NOT !
          Do not allow !
          Effectively not allow.
          They have neither long-range torpedoes on board (like the enemy submarines), nor missile torpedoes. For there is no UKKS for them.
          At 20380 UKKS no!
          And at 20385 - is, but only for 8 KR. If you equip them with missile torpedoes for the PLO, it will become almost toothless when meeting with enemy ships.

          The proposed project is good.
          Everything, except, as you noted, is air defense.
          But if the "Palm" is changed to "Pantsir-M", which has 3 types of missiles in its arsenal with a range of 40, 20 and 10 km, respectively ... + two six-barreled machine guns in one rocking chair ...
          Everything changes immediately.
          For ships of this class and displacement it is irrational and simply harmful to have hypertrophied air defense. It is too expensive, complicated, takes up a lot of space in such a small building, and as a result, it infringes and sharply limits the armament's capabilities to carry out the MAIN tasks of the BMZ - PLO ship, guarding the economic zone and escorting convoys.
          The proposed design of Zelenodolsky Design Bureau is optimized to fulfill all the tasks of the BMZ ship.
          All.
          Except for air defense. That, however, is easy to fix with Pantsir-M.
          And it is MUCH cheaper than 20380 and even more so 20385, and therefore it can be produced in a LARGE series, because there are a lot of such ships on all fleets.
          Moreover, Zelenodoltsy have always specialized in ships of this class.
          And the choice of "Cheetah" as a base is just a brilliant decision.
          1. Cympak
            Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 30
            +2
            Bad location ZRAK. The shelling sector is about 180 degrees just ahead. In case of excitement, it will be flooded on the go and freeze in the cold, which will make ZRAK not combat ready (I note that this remark is not relevant for Vietnam).
            16 cells UKKS why? Who are going to drown on an industrial scale? Enough and 8 pcs: 4 for RCC + 4 for PLUR. Working along the shore is not the task of the BMO ship. But if necessary, it is possible to replace part of the RCC / PLUR with the KR.
            1. bayard
              bayard 15 January 2020 19: 24
              0
              Quote: Cympak
              Bad location ZRAK. The shelling sector is about 180 degrees just ahead. In case of excitement on the go, it will be flooded with water and freeze in the cold, which will make ZRAK not combat ready

              You are absolutely right, but "instead of" does not mean "in place". I suggest the following rearrangement:
              - in place of "Gibki" - "Broadsword".
              - in place of the hangar - "Pantsyr-M".
              - along the sides in the ports of "Packet-NK".
              - basing the helicopter not on a permanent, but on a temporary basis - in good weather and "spend the night" and a movable hangar to it.
              - HOOK from 22385, including towed HAS - they have the same displacement, so everything fits.

              Such a corvette will be able to successfully solve the problems of a PLO, a patrol ship, an escort and, if necessary, a shock, because this ammunition load in 16 missiles makes this easy.
              And at the same time, it is much cheaper than its predecessors, faster and more versatile ... which is even surprising for such a displacement.
              Quote: Cympak
              Working along the shore is not the task of the BMO ship.

              At ranges of modern CD, it is possible to shoot on the opposite coast, especially when the Caliber-M with a range of up to 4500 km appears in service. , and porridge, as you know, cannot be spoiled with butter, if this is not at the expense of the main tasks and functions.
              hi
          2. Ratmir_Ryazan
            Ratmir_Ryazan 15 January 2020 21: 31
            0
            Yes, the Package-NK and its range of enemy boats is not large, only 20 km, but this is first of all a complex of protection against enemy torpedoes.

            More often than not, a submarine will be the first to attack a surface ship, since it will detect it earlier and if it does not have protection from torpedoes, then such a ship is doomed.

            And an enemy boat can be found and destroyed by helicopter after repelling the attack.

            Carapace-M is relevant only for MRK or IPC, but not for corvette.

            As for the price, miracles do not happen, a ship can be made cheaper only by reducing its capabilities.
            1. bayard
              bayard 15 January 2020 21: 48
              +1
              Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
              Yes, the Package-NK and its range of enemy boats is not large, only 20 km, but this is first of all a complex of protection against enemy torpedoes.

              It is also called "the last hope", for a duel with a submarine, he is not at all suitable, only if you can reduce the distance.
              And for a helicopter, weather and excitement will not always be favorable. A ship of such a small displacement has serious limitations in its use ... Unlike an enemy submarine.
              Therefore, it is necessary and even obligatory to have missile-torpedoes in the armament. This is our feature and our advantage in case of timely detection of the enemy. Even after his attack from a "safe" (from "Paket-NK") distance. Not everyone has such a means of destroying a remote submarine and it is a sin not to use this advantage.
              And "Pantsir-M" is quite sufficient for the near zone - with its maximum range of 40 km. , in BMZ and aviation will cover it. And "Polyment-Redut" for such a small ship is redundant, too expensive, complex, takes up a lot of space and cannot reveal its full potential on a ship of such a limited displacement.
              You need to have a lot of PLO corvettes. In all fleets. This is a mass ship, the workhorse of the near-field. With "Polyment-Redut", their mass character cannot be ensured either in terms of price or production capabilities. And this makes operation very difficult.
              We have already encountered this and are not happy about it.
              Therefore, topic 20385 is closed.
              We need an inexpensive mass ship PLO BMZ.
              1. Ratmir_Ryazan
                Ratmir_Ryazan 16 January 2020 09: 47
                +2
                Therefore, topic 20385 is closed.
                We need an inexpensive mass ship PLO BMZ.


                Theme 20385 is temporarily closed and the reason is in the engines and it needs to be eliminated, and the project should be renewed and finalized.

                The fact that someone promised that pr 11664 is much cheaper is not at all a fact that it will be so. RTO Karakurt cost the fleet $ 150 million, the corvette 20380 is $ 250 million and I don’t think that 11664 will be much cheaper.

                If pr. 20380/20385 is not happy with something, you need to refine it, and not throw it and grab onto a new project.

                Project 11664 has no defense against missiles or torpedoes, why such dishivism ?! What will it give? A lot of defenseless ships and what is the point? During the assault, they drove into Grozny a lot of equipment, without any protection from cumulative ammunition, and this turned out to be a huge loss. But they saved on dynamic protection and on the development of KAZ. Only here they paid with blood for this economy, but if the enemy attacked us more seriously, they would have lost everything both Moscow and the state !!!!

                Project 20380 needs to be finalized so that it can use the calibers of all modifications, including anti-submarine torpedoes.

                And to reduce the corvette's air defense to the level of Shell-M is a crime. The carapace is good only for UAVs only works, and to repel a missile attack it is not suitable, the Jews have already burned 3 pieces and have not lost a single fighter from this air defense system and will also have ships.

                A corvette should be a powerful and protected ship, its task is to go out at the signal of a network of hydroacoustic stations deployed near our bases in the near sea zone, to find an enemy boat or ship, to expel or destroy it. Another task is an escort.

                The weakly protected corvette, project 11664, the fleet does not need.

                The relevance and mass character of small anti-submarine ships in my opinion is already a thing of the past. Live them until the first missile attack.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 18 January 2020 03: 36
                  -1
                  Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                  And to reduce the corvette's air defense to the level of Shell-M is a crime. The carapace is good only for UAVs only works, but to repulse a missile attack it’s not good, Jews have already burned 3 pieces

                  The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.
                  And this is what Pantsir-S is doing in Syria with a range of 20 km. and a detection range of 40 km.
                  I'm talking about "Pantsir-M" !!! With a range of damage up to 40 km. , three types of missiles with a range of 40, 20 and 10 km. accordingly. And a radar detection range of 70 km.

                  And now compare its parameters with the "truncated Redoubt" and its short-range missiles.

                  And think carefully about what I said.
                  1. Ratmir_Ryazan
                    Ratmir_Ryazan 18 January 2020 11: 00
                    -1
                    The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.


                    Yes, it protects only when the TOP is actively helping him in this.

                    I'm talking about "Pantsir-M" !!! With a range of damage up to 40 km.


                    This is not about anything, since such a range allows enemy aircraft to deliver a massive strike with cruise missiles on such a ship and sink it with impunity.

                    And now compare its parameters with the "truncated Redoubt" and its short-range missiles.


                    What makes you think that Redoubt is truncated? Not only short-range missiles but also longer-range missiles - 9M96M and 9M96E - can be put in redoubt cells.

                    In general, Russia is already building a 20380/20385 corvette and I see no one reason not to abandon this project and grab onto another.

                    The 20380/20385 series of corvettes must be continued and brought to perfection, which is done in general - Two project 20380 ships under construction - the Strogiy and the Retivy - will be equipped with the unique Zaslon radar complex (RLC). It is capable of detecting surface, land, sea and air targets within a radius of 75 km.

                    And the Kh-35 missiles must be changed to Caliber, so that the enemy’s ship can also be hit by a submarine.

                    And throwing on projects will not do anything good.
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 18 January 2020 17: 12
                      0
                      The downside was not from me.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                      The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.


                      Yes, it protects only when the TOP is actively helping him in this.

                      You have not studied the material carefully. The armor quite successfully copes with all of the above objectives, but there were problems with the detection of some homemade UAVs, which required changing some of the radar settings. In the meantime, these shortcomings were corrected, the Pantsyri in Syria replaced the "Torah", whose radars saw such targets well.
                      But the "Thor" has a more expensive and larger missile, and its target destruction range is only 12 km. Therefore, after the reconfiguration, the "Pantsyrs" again carry service and do an excellent job.
                      And those Syrian "Pantsyrs" (reliably known about 2), which the Israeli aviation managed to destroy, in one case - having fired the ammunition, stood with the radar turned off and waited for reloading, and in the second case, was hit by a massive salvo of guided missiles, when its firing the channels were overloaded - he simply did not have time to destroy all the missiles of the salvo, but at the same time he shot down some of them.
                      And these were "Pantsyr" with Syrian calculations and fought alone.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                      I'm talking about "Pantsir-M" !!! With a range of damage up to 40 km.


                      This is not about anything, since such a range allows enemy aircraft to deliver a massive strike with cruise missiles on such a ship and sink it with impunity.

                      The range of the air defense system is 60 km. also does not guarantee the reflection of a massive raid, especially if the CD will go at low altitude (and they will be), and the detection range of the Zaslon (75 km) and Pantsyr-M (70 km) are practically identical. And enemy aircraft are closer than 70 - 80 km to such a ship and will not approach, they will launch anti-ship missiles ahead of time.
                      Of course, the placement of anti-aircraft guided missiles in the UVP is more convenient and rational than the beam one, but to have four canvases of the "Barrier" instead of one \ maximum two SNTs for "Pantsmrya-M" is a serious savings. And unification, because "Pantsyri-M" has already gone into service.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

                      In general, Russia is already building a 20380/20385 corvette and I see no one reason not to abandon this project and grab onto another.

                      It doesn’t matter which platform, the main thing is that their lineup and set of weapons should correspond to the BZ.
                      And speed.
                      The 20380 has 28 knots of maximum stroke.
                      20385 has 27 knots.
                      This is not enough. On existing diesels, it is not possible to increase the speed. If more powerful engines appear in the near future (D-500, for example, will be finished), things should get better.
                      And again about the hangar.
                      Since in our latitudes (SF, Pacific Fleet), due to weather conditions, a helicopter cannot be used on board corvettes of such a displacement, it is irrational to have a hangar for permanent basing. It is wiser to equip a helipad with a movable hangar to save space. And on the site of the capital hangar to place weapons - the same UKKS.
                      If the issue is resolved with more powerful diesels, then nothing prevents the project 20380 from being upgraded. But Kaliningrad needs to be relieved of this order, now it is necessary to concentrate all its forces on 22350 \ 22350M, and let Amursky Plant and Zelenodolsk be engaged in the production of corvettes. Even if it is a properly (!) Modernized corvette 20380.
                      In the meantime, all the modernization resulted in more and more expensive, and less and less relevant projects.
                      1. 1Alexey
                        1Alexey 19 January 2020 09: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: bayard
                        But Kaliningrad needs to be rid of this order, they now need to concentrate all their forces on 22350 \ 22350M

                        In fact, these frigates are being produced in St. Petersburg at PAO Severnaya Verf Shipyard, and not in Kaliningrad.

                        And, of course, these frigates should be much higher priority than RTOs and corvettes.
              2. alexmach
                alexmach 18 January 2020 01: 09
                0
                And "Polyment-Redut" for such a small ship is redundant, too expensive, complex, takes up a lot of space and cannot reveal its full potential on a ship of such a limited displacement.

                But a redoubt can be made in a truncated version, only with short-range self-defense missiles and some kind of simple radar. He will take up less space and will be cheaper, and will have its advantages over the Shell.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 18 January 2020 03: 48
                  0
                  Quote: alexmach
                  But a redoubt can be made in a truncated version, only with short-range self-defense missiles and some simple radar

                  So we tried. It turned out 20380 - with a radar from "Pantsir-S" .... how well it turned out, ask the operators.
                  We tried to fix things with a more powerful and efficient radar with aviation roots - "Zaslon". It turned out ... 20385. How much torment is connected with this ... And it is not at all cheaper than Polyment.
                  The truth is slightly more compact.
                  But the price jumped to the level of almost "Gorshkov"!
                  And who needs SUCH happiness for SUCH money?
                  The question is rhetorical.

                  But the whole trouble is that while all these torments of creativity have been going on - to shove the inedible into 2000 tons ... A NEW marine air defense system has appeared on the horizon.
                  "Pantsir-M" with a detection range of its radar for targets of the KR type - 70 km and a range of their destruction - up to 40 km.
                  And also with two more types of missiles in the ammunition - range of 20 km and 10 km. accordingly.
                  Had such an air defense system appeared at the time of the laying of the first 20380, no one would have thought about the "Redoubt".
                  Now it is possible to bring this class of ships to their normal form, with a normal air defense system, and a normal price.
                  1. alexmach
                    alexmach 18 January 2020 16: 21
                    -1
                    So we tried. It turned out 20380 - with a radar from "Pantsir-S" .... how well it turned out, ask the operators

                    So, let's not confuse warm with soft. The 20380 still has full-fledged redoubt cells for large missiles, at least medium-range. And the main problems, as far as I understand, here I really can be wrong, they have no problems with firing at maximum range, with a close range and a "small" 9M100 missile. And as a plus, unification with other land and sea air defense systems.

                    a NEW marine air defense system appeared on the horizon.
                    "Pantsir-M" with a detection range of its radar for targets of the KR type - 70 km and a range of their destruction - up to 40 km.

                    First appeared? Not a single ship in the Navy with this complex yet.
                    Secondly, what kind of tests did this sea shell pass in the absence of carriers?
                    Thirdly, where does the information about the range come from? Yes, 40 km is declared, but for the "land" shell, the sea shell can differ greatly from it in characteristics. In addition, it is generally not clear what its effectiveness is at ranges close to maximum. What targets can he hit there, can missiles at these ranges still vigorously maneuver, is the radio command guidance system effective? Etc. There may be more questions than answers.

                    And also with two more types of missiles in the ammunition - range of 20 km and 10 km. respectively

                    And how do you imagine using at the same time three types of missiles on a beam PU shell? If before the heap, remember the requirement for fire performance? Missiles in the VPU do not have such problems, but the beam needs to either be recharged or several types of missiles should be kept on it, and if we shoot at long-range targets, then the nearest missiles are simply dead weight ....
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 18 January 2020 19: 33
                      +1
                      Quote: alexmach

                      And how do you imagine using at the same time three types of missiles on a beam PU shell? If before the heap, remember the requirement for fire performance? Missiles in the VPU do not have such problems, but the beam needs to either be recharged or several types of missiles should be kept on it, and if we shoot at long-range targets, then the nearest missiles are simply dead weight ....

                      In the same way as now on "Pantsir-S" 2 types of missiles with a range of 20 and 10 km are used simultaneously. accordingly. The new land-based "Shell" is made on the basis of its naval version, and not vice versa and has been tested / tested for a long time, at least for 4 - 5 years at least. Including on an experimental ship (I saw one).
                      And of course on guides at least 8 containers at the same time. Moreover, in one container simultaneously placed 4 melee missiles with a range of 10 km.
                      And all three types of missiles, of course, are on the launch pad at the same time.
                      And quick reload.
                      1. alexmach
                        alexmach 18 January 2020 20: 13
                        -1
                        In the same way as now on "Pantsir-S" 2 types of missiles with a range of 20 and 10 km are used simultaneously. respectively

                        Similarly, yes not exactly the same. Ground Shell can easily be used by a battery of 4-8 launchers, where there is where to combine different missiles, and on a ship where the installation is only one, what can you combine there?
                        And of course on guides at least 8 containers at the same time.

                        Well, for gas, offer an approximate set of 8 Kteiners with three types of missiles.
                        Moreover, in one container simultaneously placed 4 melee missiles with a range of 10 km.

                        Are you sure that the range of these "nails" is exactly 10 km? After all, the upper stage there is quite small.
                        Well, you shot long-range missiles, and you still have long-range targets, and melee missiles at the PU, what next? recharge?
                        And quick reload

                        Fast reload is how many minutes?

                        Maybe I'm certainly wrong, but I'm very skeptical about this sea shell. No, for small ships it is probably good, but not the fact that the best can be, but for corvettes, in my opinion, it’s not enough at all ... but this is only the opinion of the amateur.
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 18 January 2020 21: 41
                        0
                        On the "Pantsyr-M" launcher, there were 8 containers during the tests, but nothing prevents them from placing 12 or even 16 pieces. - this is a ship, not a launcher on wheels.
                        And combine them like hosh.
                        Quote: alexmach
                        Fast reload is how many minutes?

                        As far as I remember, it is automatic and takes (should) last tens of seconds.
                        I won't say anything about nails, except that the maximum range is named 10 km. This means that they are effective up to at least 6 - 7 km. , like the same "Wasp". A couple of such containers on PU will be quite enough.
                      3. alexmach
                        alexmach 18 January 2020 22: 07
                        0
                        On the "Pantsyr-M" launcher, there were 8 containers during the tests, but nothing prevents them from placing 12 or even 16 pieces. - this is a ship, not a launcher on wheels.

                        Does the drum loading mechanism also interfere? Or did he sink into oblivion with Kashatan?
                        As far as I remember, it is automatic and takes (should) be tens of seconds in strength

                        Let's count:
                        1. deploy the PU to the standard position
                        2. Lift the rails vertically up
                        3. Roll up rakts on them from the cellar (that's just it takes 3s on rollers about Kashtan-M)
                        4. Points 1,2 to play back.
                        So I'm not sure what will invest in 10s.
                        And this is if the right rocket is in the cellar in the right place at the ready.
                        Further, imagine that you have three types of missiles, some you shot and others remained on the launcher, because they probably still need to be rolled back before rolling out a new "pack".

                        And this is all on the condition that in general there is still this mechanical reloading on small ships, the rollers are from Kashtan-M from the first ranks.

                        ABOUT! found the same
                        https://youtu.be/5pkLOcAVIB8?t=312
                        Previously, it took about a dozen minutes. Now 8 missiles are being discharged for minute
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 18 January 2020 23: 30
                        +1
                        You understand, "I spoke about" Carapace "primarily in connection with 11661, in the context of the changes that can make a good BMZ corvette out of it.
                        The same was said about 20380 of the first versions, where the capabilities of "Fourke" were not at all enough for "Redoubt", even a stripped down one. At first everything was really bad there.
                        The creation and integration of the "Barrier" was also difficult, and the possibilities were still ... 75 km. discoveries speak about themselves.
                        Yes, at that price!
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?
                        With obviously lower characteristics than the frigate?
                        Isn’t it easier to share aspirations and build an easy PLO corvette, with armament and equipment optimized specifically for these tasks, and set the air defense to moderate, since aviation will cover it in the BMZ, and to build a frigate (!) Air defense for more serious tasks, with more advanced air defense better seaworthiness, autonomy, the ability to work as a helicopter and a large wearable ammunition?
                        Now we don’t have enough money to repair the ships that are in service, the construction of the much-needed new ones is being delayed due to a lack of funds ... And at the same time, the construction of BMZ ships at such high prices and equally unbalanced in armament and not optimized for the implementation of the BASIC .
                        After all, the 20380 and 20385 series, among other things, and speeds are clearly insufficient for effective PLO.
                        If you use more powerful engines on them, optimize the composition of the armament for the main BZ (PL) ... and entrust their construction to those shipyards that are not engaged in the construction of ships of the main classes ... something can happen.
                      5. alexmach
                        alexmach 19 January 2020 00: 15
                        0
                        The armor I spoke primarily in relation to 11661

                        No, Broadsword on the Shell is of course a rational change.
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?

                        I’m not at all sure of the correctness of this statement, as far as I understand, we are talking about prices of very different years. Moreover, it is not logical to compare with non-existent frigate PLO.
                        But in general, it is hard to disagree with the idea that a mass PLO ship should be as cheap as possible.
                        If you apply more powerful engines to them

                        Yes, there is another big pain.
                      6. bayard
                        bayard 19 January 2020 02: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: alexmach
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?

                        I’m not at all sure of the correctness of this statement, as far as I understand, we are talking about prices of very different years. Moreover, it is not logical to compare with non-existent frigate PLO.

                        Comparisons began when frigates for the Black Sea Fleet of the 11356 series surrendered and 20385 corvettes were in completion. Corvettes were already then significantly more expensive than 11356 and were approaching 22350. Then the ruble exchange rate ... and prices began their rapid drift. But the price ratios of 20385 and 22350 were already visible then ... and they are not in favor of 20385.
                        Discussions about the budget corvette and frigate PLO have been going on in the VO forums for more than a year ... with my participation. Occasionally before ...
                        Various configurations were proposed, GEMs, methods of combat use ... So, an opinion has already been formed on what is expedient and necessary. request hi
                      7. alexmach
                        alexmach 18 January 2020 20: 25
                        -1
                        Including on the test ship (I saw one)

                        Did you see the experimental ship with the Carapace?
                      8. bayard
                        bayard 18 January 2020 23: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: alexmach
                        Did you see the experimental ship with the Carapace?

                        Not only . At least one MRK of the "Karakurt" type is already armed with the "Pantsir-M" air defense system and is being actively tested.
                        And I saw "Pantsir-M" on an experimental ship ... four years ago. My classmate is engaged in naval air defense systems from a specialized design bureau, he is wandering around all fleets.
    3. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 23
      +1
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      There is a project corvette 20380
      project - "castrat" ​​(in the field of PLO, - its main task !!) for big money ?! ...
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      final match.
      a little better, but ... much more expensive ?!
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      We need a new IPC 1124 Albatross.
      here to replace it, as well as the ability to combine main functions of the IPC, with added (additional capabilities of RTOs, i.e. the use of the same "Calibers from UKSK" "distant land" as at one time the Caspian "Buyans"), approximately and finally needed
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      Ave 11664
      . but the fact that -
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      only with weak air defense.
      then just air defense capabilities for OVR corvette in BMZ, more secondary (to save on construction and mass). Primarily just opportunities PLO !!!
  4. lucul
    lucul 14 January 2020 18: 17
    +2
    Too big a helicopter for this ship, one hangar is worth it.
    Maybe it makes sense for Kamovtsy to work out a smaller version of a helicopter for such small ships (I hope they will be massive)?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 45
      +5
      The world's largest electronics require volumes. Buying ready-made European search engines, for example, for petty Dafin - will not work out already. Well, that's all. Finished the theme of light helicopter PLO. For existing and promising systems will not fit in either the Ka-226 or Ansat.

      It’s already I’m missing the fact that the Kamovtsi disrupted all conceivable and unimaginable Ka-226 terms for the FSB. Where is the minimum alteration. A total of 2 helicopters transferred, 2 possibly transferred to 12 already built Rubin-type watchdogs, which were designed after the helicopter (the basic requirement is the Ka-226 base).
  5. businessv
    businessv 14 January 2020 18: 26
    +1
    Project 11664 has certain chances to get to the construction, but do not show excessive optimism and overestimate its prospects.
    I would like to hear the competent opinion of members of the forum on this project. Colleagues, please write prospects, advantages and disadvantages, there are many people far from the fleet. smile
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 19: 20
      +4
      I don’t know what kind of bright head this project was developing, but the idea of ​​placing an integrated mast with all radar facilities behind the chimney is five lol laughing .
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 04: 37
        0
        In, doesn’t the antenna exhaust?
        1. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 15 January 2020 19: 41
          -1
          Well, Dering is somehow functioning, although his AFAR is also behind the chimney. And nothing. Among some, it’s even called as the best destroyer-air defense today (although it may be that the particles of ash are not so critical for AFAR, I don’t know).
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 03: 30
            +1
            Not only is this antenna not the only one on Daring, but the main complex in front of the pipe, so it also rotates, accelerates so to speak!)) Plus, between the radar antenna and the pipe is another integrated mast, with, as I understand it, communication antennas, but for them, smoke is definitely not critical.
      2. ZEMCH
        ZEMCH 4 September 2020 16: 55
        0
        If the power plant is diesel, then the exhaust from the sides, the pipe is needed only for the gas turbine
        1. D16
          D16 4 September 2020 17: 24
          0
          It is customary for us to make exhaust into the water on high-speed diesel engines M-504, M-503, M-507, M-50F6 and M-401. The largest MRK with two 507 machines and a GTU was 1124. Its VI was 900 tons. This steamer declared 2000 tons:
          https://realnoevremya.ru/articles/163214-eksportnyy-kontrakt-ne-sostoyalsya-iz-za-otsutstviya-v-rossii-proizvodstva-gazoturbinnogo-dvigatelya
          So most likely the power plant there will be similar to Project 20380. No wonder the 20380 mainmast is painted black lol .
  6. Demagogue
    Demagogue 14 January 2020 18: 37
    +5
    Another masterpiece. And not a corvette, and not a frigate, but an unknown animal. There is nothing to do in the near zone without a towed out gas and a package. And for the far zone, zero air defense. And you go like Gorshkov. The frigate must have a normal displacement of 3 tons so that the helicopter can be deployed. 500 nothing at all. And for the corvette bust.
    1. bars1
      bars1 14 January 2020 19: 09
      +1
      And you can determine what weapons and equipment he has, and which not, from these muddy pics?
    2. Vadmir
      Vadmir 14 January 2020 19: 59
      -1
      There is nothing to do in the near zone without a towed out gas and a package.
      I agree, but the article does not write about the absence of a towed GAS - there is no information on the electronic weapons of this ship. And the Package can and should be put in place of a part of Caliber - 16 pieces for a corvette of such a displacement, this is too much.
      so that the helicopter can be used. 2 nothing at all. And for the corvette bust.
      A helicopter for PLO corvette is needed.
      1. bayard
        bayard 15 January 2020 05: 27
        -3
        Quote: Vadmir
        And the Package can and should be put in place of a part of Caliber - 16 pieces for a corvette of such a displacement, this is too much.

        "Package-NK" is most likely provided there. And for this it is not at all necessary to reduce the main caliber ammunition. A towed GAS most likely should also be - without it, the PLO corvette is untenable.
        But the air defense needs to be strengthened. And this can be easily done with the Pantsir-M, which will be quite (!) Sufficient for a ship of this class.
        If something necessary is not enough, and there is no more space, you can optimize the helicopter hangar. Leave the helipad and install a movable hangar, and use the vacated space for additional. weapons - the same "Packet-NK", if it is not provided in the basic configuration.
        But the ship is good - the hull and power plant from "Cheetah" are an excellent choice. High-speed, and this is important for the anti-submarine. 16 missiles in UKSK, of which 8 can be submarines of missile-torpedoes, and the remaining 8 - KR "Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircon" in any combination.
        For the NEAR zone, this is a perfectly balanced ship.
        But on condition of strengthening the air defense with the "Pantsir-M".
        And for the price it will be cheaper than 20380. While being much more powerful in PLO and shock capabilities.
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 14 January 2020 23: 16
      +1
      I agree nedofregat, without meaning. In general, corvettes are not needed. Or a universal frigate of 3500-4500 tons, or even highly specialized small ones of not more than 800 tons of MPK MRK MKPVO minesweepers .... and then there are not many of them. The basis of modern warfare at sea is coastal aviation and submarines.
      1. bayard
        bayard 15 January 2020 05: 38
        0
        Frigates are needed for the DMZ and to ensure the PLO in the areas of combat deployment of SSBNs. In the near zone, lighter and cheaper ships are needed to provide near-field missile defense, send out guard functions and escort transports and landing ships.
        "Cheetah" is a good base, the large ammunition load of the missile launcher makes it possible to have both missile-torpedo submarines and shock missile launchers in any combination at the same time. Replacing Palma with Carapace optimizes AA defenses.
        And the price.
        In addition, Zelenodolsk just always specialized in ships of this class. He will succeed.
        1. saylor1971
          saylor1971 15 January 2020 19: 28
          +2
          Under this criterion, the concept of a "small frigate" - corvette type 056A of the Chinese Navy will be more subtle.
          056А
          Displacement full 1500, length 89 m.
          Armament:
          Chinese version of the AK-176;
          SAM analogue of more complex RIM-116:
          RCC - 2x2 their analogue of Exoset. It’s quite a normal RCC at 180km.
          2x30mm stabilized guns, with a multi-mode optical guidance system, with the possibility of remote firing (from a combat post outside the gun).
          anti-submarine component contains:
          - station
          - BUGAS
          - anti-submarine helicopter, which can use a corvette for temporary base or jumping point. There is a supply of fuel for helicopter.
          - 2x3 TA for Yu-7 torpedoes which are a composition of the reverse engineering of new Italian torpedoes (which they purchased) and some solutions of the American Mark 46 / 54.
          - light radar Type 364.
          - Reliable and high-life Pielstick 16PA6STC engines, licensed.

          The result is a cheap OVR corvette that can produce virtually any CVD quickly, cheaply and efficiently. It immediately closes the functions of the Albatrosses + MRK 1234/1241 + patrol ship of the near zone. Due to its rather good seaworthiness in the composition of the compound (KUG), it will be able to strengthen the PLO component of the compound.
      2. Cympak
        Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 36
        +1
        Corvettes are needed, but designed according to the cost criterion. There should be a lot of corvettes combining MRK + IPC for BMO. It all comes down to search engine performance. One frigate will not be able to displace the enemy nuclear submarines from the required area (the nuclear submarines will simply evade one ship), and 3-4 corvettes working at the same time can do it (the search front is wider and there are more tactical techniques).
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 15 January 2020 16: 19
          0
          But why combine in one small ship plo and air defense? it’s also inconvenient to double the displacement and there will be no inability to disperse and cross the GDP, and the requirements for basing places increase and the cost doubles of course, visibility too .... corvettes are unnecessary for Russia, there will be no seaworthiness for the oceans, a frigate is needed at least. and for the seas they are unreasonably large, Let some be engaged in one thing PLO, and others in another RTO, frigate for DMZ. and those and others do not need a lot.
    4. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 34
      0
      Quote: Demagogue
      Without towed gus
      Sorry, but what does this mean? ...
      Quote: Demagogue
      and she’s nothing to do with a packet in a plo in the near zone.
      ?! Are you sure that "Packet-NK" is for effective PLO ?! I always suspected that the maximum of its effectiveness is anti-torpedo protection! No more.
      Quote: Demagogue
      ... And it’s worth it like Gorshkov ...
      Why would it ?!
  7. Luty
    Luty 14 January 2020 18: 38
    +6
    It would be better to continue the construction of 20385. And so the next projects and the struggle for financing. And at the exit "Stealth Miracle" 20386, which is not known when it will be built.
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 14
      +1
      It is not yet known what will come out of 20386 of the project, maybe it will succeed, but it is not worth stopping the construction of corvettes, in its expectation, ships of this class are needed. you are right, you can continue the construction of 20385, you can even build 20380.
      And new projects are also needed, we have no replacement for the IPC. We need a small PLO corvette, another question is what kind of ship it will be, maybe an increased Karakurt PLO, or maybe something based on project 11661.
    2. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 20: 45
      +4
      No one will build 20385 until there is a corresponding VI of GEM for him. IMHO, if someday the D500 is brought to an acceptable level in terms of imported components, they will make a gearbox, RM and all the rest of them as in the DDA-12000, then maybe they will again take up the 20380 series (5). Only it will not be very soon, and almost a different ship.
      1. Luty
        Luty 14 January 2020 20: 56
        +1
        Unfortunately, they won’t take it and it’s not about diesels. Everything is fine there and not inferior to 20380
        1. D16
          D16 14 January 2020 20: 59
          +2
          Is everything normal in 20380? laughing
          1. bayard
            bayard 15 January 2020 05: 46
            +1
            At 20380 everything is ABNORMAL. From the composition of weapons to speed characteristics and autonomy.
            And the price.
            Also not normal.
            The proposed corvette is much more consistent with the tasks of PLO in the near zone, patrol and escort. But only on condition of replacing "Palma" with "Pantsir-M". In this case, the new corvette will surpass its predecessors in efficiency at times.
            "Gepard" is an excellent base for the BMZ ship.
            1. D16
              D16 15 January 2020 08: 05
              +2
              With speed characteristics it’s clear, I wrote about this. From UKKS to 20380 too. Although torpedoes and a helicopter can take. But what does 20385 not suit you? On it, in terms of weapon composition, everything is fine. There is a zonal air defense system, the most effective gas systems at the moment, a range of 4000 miles. Where is more for a corvette? Is there a means of self-defense against submarines, 6 UKKS corvette is not enough? wassat Do you think the submarines will be trampled with jambs, or will the opponent’s ACS jump out from around the corner? There are much more chances to meet the enemy’s aircraft and TSA. If, with the appropriate GEM, it is increased to 2,5 kT, then it will make the current 22350.
              What do we have from this "Gepard +" besides 16 UKSK? There is no GEM for him. There are no means of self-defense against torpedoes, as well as the zonal air defense complex. A small sodden GAS, possibly OGAS, but it can only work in drift. In general, God forbid that this beefy Albatross would remain only in the model.
              1. bayard
                bayard 15 January 2020 09: 09
                +1
                Quote: D16
                But what does 20385 not suit you?

                At a cost, too tight a lineup, too expensive and complicated for a ship of such a displacement of air defense systems. His price jumped almost to the level of 22350.
                Quote: D16
                the most effective GAS at the moment,

                They can be installed on the proposed corvette, and as part of this ship will be more harmonious.
                Quote: D16
                There is a zonal air defense system,

                For a ship of SUCH class (PLO corvette) it is redundant - "Pantsir-M" will be enough.
                Quote: D16
                There are means of self-defense from submarines

                It is not difficult to install "Packet-NK" on this corvette. Yes, I think he is there and so it should be.
                You understand, 20385 will not be built anymore.
                All . Have played enough. Price, complexity, lineup density.
                We need another one - cheap (relatively), sharpened for PLO and with moderate air defense. "Palma" is certainly too much, but "Pantsyr-M" will fix the matter.
                Quote: D16
                .If with the corresponding GEM it is increased to 2,5 kT, then the current 22350 will be obtained from it

                Its VI is already 2500 tons, and it really is almost equal to the price of 22350. Therefore, we limited ourselves to the construction of 2 copies. Now everyone is talking about the need for an inexpensive PLO corvette. And now there is "Pantsyr-M", which did not exist before. Its potential for a PLO corvette in BMZ is quite enough. In BMZ it will also be covered by basic aviation.
                Quote: D16
                What do we have from this "Gepard +" besides 16 UKSK?

                Firstly, excellent speed, rational contours and in the case of some re-arrangement ...
                Just imagine on this case, as an option:
                - instead of "Palma" we put "Broadsword";
                - in place of the Pantsyr-M and Paket-NK hangars along the sides in ports;
                - for a helicopter a movable hangar, because its basing will not be permanent, but temporary - in good weather and "spend the night";
                - We take HAK from 20385 with a towed HAS - it will fit, because the displacement of both is 2500 tons, and we saved volumes on air defense systems and hangars;
                - 16 places in the UKKS allow you to carry ammunition from all the missiles needed in battle at the same time. Let's say 8 PLUR and 8 drums in any combination, depending on the KB.

                And what do we get as a result?
                The ideal PLO corvette, guard and escort in one bottle.
                At the same time, it surpasses 20380 and 20385 in speed, armament, and in price ... in any case, it will not be higher than 20380. It will be cheaper, because we saved on Polyment-Redut.
                It is precisely such a ship that the fleet needs, and as soon as possible and in commercial quantities.
                In addition, the fact that Zelenodolsk will be involved in this project (this is precisely his profile) will allow Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg to be unloaded for projects of the highest priority for them - DMZ and OZ ships - 22350 and 22350M. They also need to be built in commodity quantities.
                The fact that in Kaliningrad they pulled out the already formed hull of 20385 from the boathouse, freeing up space for laying the next 22350+ this year, suggests that it will be so - Kaliningrad and Peter will build DMZ and OZ ships, and Zelenodolsk and Zaliv - corvettes, RTOs and ... UDC.
                But Amursky will continue the series 20380 ... he is barely in tone.

                In a word, what was shown in the layout is just a blank. But accepting the proposed changes for this hull, this will be the type of BMZ ship the fleet had been dreaming of for so long.
                1. D16
                  D16 15 January 2020 10: 19
                  +3
                  What was shown in the layout was nothing more than a fat Albatross, in which air defense weapons were less rationally placed to accommodate a helicopter. What you propose as part of the "finishing" of the layout will be quite capable of creating a completely new project from scratch with the corresponding investment of time and money. This is a complete alteration of the body for GAS Zarya 2 in a nasal bulb, BUGAS, which was not used on Zelenodolsk projects, a package that still needs to be placed somewhere with its GAS. I repeat that the placement of the optocoupler mast behind the chimney is, to put it mildly, irrational. Well, the most interesting moment. What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics? And if with the D 500 the light at the end of the tunnel is still visible, then with the GT for corvettes the darkness is impenetrable. And the fact that the second 20385 was postponed suggests that the fleet did not work with the current DDA-12000 and decided to wait for the D500. Tomorrow anyway no one is going to arrange a third world war.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 15 January 2020 11: 17
                    -1
                    Quote: D16
                    What you propose as part of the "finishing" of the layout will be quite capable of creating a completely new project from scratch with the corresponding investment of time and money.

                    Yes, it seems to me that there is no project in the full sense of the word yet. It was rather a sketch on the topic "what if you like it", to load the capacities of both Zelenodolsk and the new Bay for them. And the model was made in haste on the basis of "Cheetah". After all, the article is about the fact that if you like it and will have funding, then the project will be quickly prepared and ready to build. So at this stage, you can make any reasonable changes without compromising on time and budget.
                    Quote: D16
                    I repeat that the placement of the optocoupler mast behind the chimney is, to say the least, irrational.

                    I absolutely share your opinion and I think that the very fact of such a placement speaks only of an approximate modeling of this project. On a blunder.
                    Quote: D16
                    Well, the most interesting moment. What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics?

                    I'm also interested in this and I wrote about it in my first post on this article (at the beginning of the comments), but if it is the same as that of the Cheetah - about two diesels and one afterburner, then the driving characteristics will be very good .. especially compared to the corvettes of the last cadence. So, if the turbine is M-90FR (in order to unify for the fleet and facilitate the tasks of industry) and a pair of new diesel engines, then the only question is in the gearbox. There is time for work on the power plant - after all, the project (whether it is selected and ordered) will take time, the bookmarks will not begin next year.
                    Quote: D16
                    Tomorrow, anyway, no one is going to arrange a third world war.

                    To start \ meet the war tomorrow, the fleet must be built the day before yesterday. hi
                    1. D16
                      D16 15 January 2020 13: 25
                      +2
                      What are we breaking spears about then? If this is not a project, but an extremely crooked presentation of the concept, then I don’t see any reason to get involved with this plant. If they can’t offer anything to interest the client at the layout level, then the ship will not be made even more so. In general, this layout is a set of old, already applied solutions and it is very doubtful that they will be able to move away from them. After all, a bunch of suppliers work with the plant in cooperation, who make the Palm, and not the Shell, do not do the Package, and much more. So let them do RTOs, watchdogs MCHPV, export Cheetahs. In general, what they know how to do well. And if they suddenly become unemployed, they can thank their design bureau, which does not catch mice. smile
                      1. Cympak
                        Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 43
                        +1
                        They (ZPKB) proposed a revolutionary line of ATS: the Rusich-1500 corvette, the Rusich-2400 frigate. And they almost won the competition for the promising OVR / BMZ corvette. But unexpectedly, "Vitya" died away, it was declared that the OVR ships were not needed, and in fact, the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau, which had lost in the competition, pushed the DMZ 20386 corvette.
                      2. D16
                        D16 15 January 2020 19: 44
                        -1
                        To this I see a number of understandable reasons. The first is global. We do not want to win the third world. We want to prevent it. No, even the most advanced OVR corvette will not help one iota in this. But the full-scale modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces is very yes smile ... So the admirals need a big and beautiful "Varyag" to demonstrate the flag in Syria - Libya. I'm not talking about the technical risks associated with the CODOG power plant, which are practically absent for Zelenodolsk steamers.
                      3. bayard
                        bayard 15 January 2020 17: 17
                        +1
                        Quote: D16
                        What are we breaking spears about then? If this is not a project

                        This is a project that Zelenodol residents proposed, which means that they are ready and able to create a combat ship on the Gepard platform - in its hull and with its power plant, they proposed a lineup with a permanent-based helicopter and a UKSK for 16 missiles ... but with a strong limited air defense. Agreeing with this, or suggesting your own set of weapons and changes is up to the customer. I suggested these changes.
                        After all, a warship is primarily a platform (hull and power plant), on which, depending on the needs and within the framework of the possible, one or another set of weapons (shock, defensive, electronic and radio-technical, anti-submarine, depending on the needs of the customer, and It should be formulated in the terms of reference from him. In general, it is more reasonable to make a whole family of ships on one successful base - it’s cheaper and faster for the customer and easier for the manufacturer. So it was with project 1124, 1135 - guard and anti-submarine ki on one basis.
                        "Cheetah" is a good platform for an PLO corvette and patrol boat, a high-speed ship with good contours and a suitable displacement. The set of weapons must be formulated by the customer.
                        The very fact that this platform has been proposed suggests that they are ready to do this, and the Cheetah platform is certainly better than the 20380 platform. In the near zone, the S-350 is redundant for a ship of this class; it is quite enough for it to have the Pantsir-M. Its displacement and internal volumes make it possible to place a SJC similar to what is at 20385 - since it (20385) will no longer be built, then the suppliers of everything necessary for cooperation can safely switch to supplying another interested customer (Zelenodolsk). And I don't see any problems in this.
                        Have to redo the project?
                        He will have to redo it anyway, if they want to get a good (very good) order, then they are a design bureau, not a peddler from the fair. They won an order for the construction of two UDCs, so really what they only specialized in before that, they won’t master it? Will certainly master.
                        Therefore, it is possible and necessary to argue on the case - on re-arranging and changing the composition of armaments, in order to give the desired ship the combat capabilities necessary to fulfill its BZ.
                        I made my proposals and justified.
                      4. D16
                        D16 15 January 2020 19: 17
                        +1
                        The very fact that this platform has been proposed suggests that they are ready to do this, and the Cheetah platform is certainly better than the 20380 platform.

                        Well, let's calculate whose platform is better. The power ratio of 11661 is 15,85 hp / t. The power ratio of 22380 is 10,81 hp / t. The difference is one and a half times. And do not forget that the specific fuel consumption of full-speed turbines 11661 is also one and a half times higher than that of D49. And all this for the sake of advantages in one knot of maximum speed wassat . At the same time, Cheetah runs its 4000 miles on the economic course of 10 knots, and 20380 for 14. So which case is better? laughing
                      5. bayard
                        bayard 15 January 2020 21: 05
                        0
                        You are so boldly talking about the power plant of the proposed ship, not paying attention at all to the difference between it and the base 11661, and in fact 1710 t and 2500 normal VI are not at all the same thing. In addition, there are no M-90 turbines or the diesel engine used on the Cheetahs. But there is a turbine M-90FR / FRU with a capacity of 27 l / s, M-500FRU - 70 - 10 l / s (there is no exact information yet), a diesel with a capacity of 000 l / s is on the way and possibly 12 l / s ... As well as a number of other doors. installations less suitable for this project. It is not yet clear what it has been decided to put on the proposed project, but the GEM will definitely not be able to be the same as before.
                        I think the options are possible:
                        - two diesel engines (2 x 6000 l \ s) and one afterburner turbine;
                        - one diesel engine (10 or 000 l / s) and one afterburner turbine.
                        - one marching (M-70FRU) and one afterburner turbine.
                        What designers have in mind, one can only guess, but most likely there will be something like the first option.
                        There is another option - diesel pairs 6000 + 10 000 \ 12 000 l \ s. with a total power on shafts of 32 - 000 l / s. And very different speeds.
                        In any case, Kaliningrad and Peter should be freed from the order for corvettes (which is apparently being done) and Zelenodolsk should be loaded with this topic, which is just for him in profile.
                        So you laugh in vain - that GEM, which you thought - does not exist. And those that are possible will give a cruising speed not lower than that of 20380.
                        And in general, I’m talking about layout solutions and the composition of weapons in a two-body building. At this manufacturer. Zelenodoltsy are quite capable of building buildings at home and driving them to completion in the Gulf (which we have already demonstrated), organize the construction of a large series and relieve Kaliningrad and Peter for more serious and priority orders.
                        I'm talking about the ship, how it can, and therefore MUST be. Based on the proposed one, you can create a ship that meets ALL the requirements for a PLO corvette, a guard and an escort. If there are suggestions / objections to the case, I’m ready to debate, but 20380 is a departed nature, an unsuccessful ship that does not meet the requirements. They will no longer be built.
                        In the best case, they will complete the mortgaged buildings.
                      6. D16
                        D16 15 January 2020 23: 08
                        +4
                        You wrote that the Cheetah platform is better than 20380. I do not know any other Cheetah except 11661. And you have clearly shown that the 11661 building is nothing more than a power victory over hydrodynamics laughing . Unlike the 20380 with its much more economical, quiet and resource-based power plant. Speak 2500 tons? Let's estimate your options:
                        - two diesel engines (2 x 6000 l \ s) and one afterburner turbine;

                        There are two options:
                        1. Analogue 1124. Three-shaft SU with a turbine operating on a middle propeller. Good full speed, but there is a problem. In any economic mode, there will be a lot of resistance due to a broken middle propeller.
                        2. SODAG. That is, you will have to do the Cheetah SU opposite. At the same time, through a cunning inter-gear transmission, the turbine will transmit its 27000 hp. on both valolines at the same time. We did not have this, no, and most likely will not.
                        - one diesel engine (10 or 000 l / s) and one afterburner turbine.

                        Hello single-shaft SU. Also CODAG. Half of the EU Gorshkov. Not take off. A single-shaft EC in the Navy will never drive, and there are no such diesel engines. 16D500-8000 HP
                        - one marching (M-70FRU) and one afterburner turbine.

                        COGAG. The most confused option. Analogue M7K pr. 1135. Judging by the sale of the second three admirals to Indians, no one hopes for its appearance. It doesn’t roll because of the naval requirements for survivability and hemorrhoids with a low speed. GTU does not like him very much. At 1135, one marching turbine could be used on both valolines, but this is not our case.
                        There is another option - diesel pairs 6000 + 10 000 \ 12 000 l \ s. with a total power on shafts of 32 - 000 l / s. And very different speeds.

                        CODAD. There is a DDA-12000. This is 24000 hp. Even if they finish the D-500, it will be 32000 hp, which will be nothing for a well-fed Cheetah. So I see only one option. Finish the D-500 and upgrade the 20380s. To build this steamboat in Zelenodolsk in cooperation with the Gulf and the NSSA, and not to breed fatty gas turbine cats. smile
                      7. bayard
                        bayard 16 January 2020 01: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: D16
                        So I see only one option. Finish the D-500 and upgrade the 20380s.

                        I am for it . Whose hull of one displacement to take is not a matter of principle, the content is important. If in case 20380 it is possible to implement what I have listed for 11661 (and this is quite possible), then this will only be beneficial. But it should be a PLO corvette, without overloading by air defense (there is enough on the Pantsir-M), with missile-torpedoes in the UKSK, the best possible HAC with the obligatory towed GAS, "Packet-NK" and a movable hangar for a helicopter with in order to save space.
                        Well, the GEM in diesel vapors. 32 l / s for a hull with a displacement of 000 - 2000 tons will give a speed of up to 2500 - 29 knots (the same Chinese frigate with a power plant has the same power, a speed of 30 knots at 28 - 3500 tons of explosives).
                        The main thing is price and manufacturability to ensure the construction of a large series.
                        But you understand that after such a modernization, it will be a completely different ship.
                        But more successful.
                      8. D16
                        D16 16 January 2020 10: 31
                        +1
                        We decided on the case. Already good. Let's estimate what it is for. smile . Kok is known, the best submarine hunter is DEPL. This is logical. They are quieter, can lie on the ground, they do not care about the weather. Armed with full torpedoes and missile torpedoes. That is, the current stamping of Varshavyanka is not for hunting convoys of the enemy, but for the protection of its bases and deployment areas. This is evidenced by the fact that with the creation of their anaerobic plant no one really bothers. Autonomy is not critical near its bases. Not so long ago, they began to mass-build a new generation of diesel-electric submarines even more secretive and effective. Before them, NK is like up to China. But as World War II showed, the most terrible enemy of dizeluhi is the plane. And here the presence on the corvette of the zonal air defense complex plays with new colors. And such ships will be needed not so much. It turns out that the main function of BMZ corvettes is to quickly cover their diesel-electric submarines from naval aviation and enemy ships, and to co-ordinate submarine actions. You can also highlight the function of low-frequency backlight pulses.
                        Everything must be fine in the ship to accompany the convoy. Including the IJIS-shaped air defense complex. OGAS for escort is practically useless. It should be noted that the life of diesel-electric submarines can be greatly facilitated by the development of a specialized submarine ship with crewless boats, each of which can use the OGAS or low-frequency pulse generator in drift. This will greatly increase the saturation of the GAS area. Thus, we come to the paradoxical conclusion that admirals are not so unapproachable with a complete set of 20385.
                      9. bayard
                        bayard 16 January 2020 15: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: D16
                        And here the presence on the corvette of the zonal air defense complex plays with new colors. And such ships will be needed not so much. It turns out that the main function of BMZ corvettes is to quickly cover their diesel-electric submarines from naval aviation and enemy ships, and to co-ordinate submarine actions

                        And again about "Polyment-Redoubt". A good complex, but only it integrates into a corvette with great difficulty - the hull is small, you have to shrink at the expense of other weapons systems. Again, about seaworthiness - on the wave of it (the corvette) not only problems with the use of a helicopter, but also a CD, and therefore an air defense system + limited ammunition. Curse of the small VI. request
                        But on the frigate, it integrates just fine. So maybe, since we need such BMZ ships to work in coordination with diesel-electric submarines, we don’t need so many to build them in the frigate dimension? In the VI 3500 - 4000 tons, so that they keep the wave, and use the helicopter, and autonomy-habitability? After all, everything (!) That you are talking about in the 2000 - 2500 t building cannot be accommodated. Or fit in with damage, as in 20385. And very expensive. If you pay dearly, can it still be smart? For a ship with normal VI?

                        But DEPL has one drawback - the reaction rate.
                        Suppose the sensors of acoustic fields give a signal about the appearance of enemy submarines outside the coverage area of ​​the armament on duty of diesel-electric submarines. Its low underwater speed will not allow it to quickly be in the right place ... and the weather is non-flying ... Therefore, it is impossible to do without BM - working dogs BMZ.
                        I see a solution to the BMP PLO problem only in a comprehensive way:
                        - frigates PLO with advanced air defense on board;
                        - working dogs - PLO corvettes (with developed means of PLO and air defense restrictions - for the sake of fit in the VI 1500 - 2000 tons);
                        - aircraft PLO;
                        - DEPL to ensure PLO bases and pouring zones;
                        - developed system of bottom fields.
                        And attempts to shove 2000 tons of stuff into the hull will not end in good. This and 20385 showed.
                      10. D16
                        D16 16 January 2020 18: 47
                        +1
                        This and 20385 showed

                        He showed nothing but insufficient GEM. The tests are not over yet.
                        And again about "Polyment-Redoubt". A good complex, but only it integrates into a corvette with great difficulty - the hull is small, you have to shrink at the expense of other weapons systems.

                        Polement-Redoubt does not integrate into corvettes at all. And Barrier-Redoubt is quite normal. At 20380-5, the limit on the use of weapons is 5 points. This is not a flying weather, Poseidon, of course, doesn’t care for 10 km, until he can only find what the hell in such weather. And from the coastal S-400 it will easily collapse.
                        But DEPL has one drawback - the reaction rate.

                        The diesel-electric submarine in service has a missile launcher with a range of up to 50 km., There is a corvette with the same missiles, covering the submarine, there is also an anti-submarine aircraft, which in the process of rapprochement will not make noise all over the ocean. I think that with the proper organization of the search, everything will work out.
                        don't you need so much, build them in the dimension of a frigate? In the VI 3500 - 4000 tons.

                        Taki build. Project 20386. And the Gorshkov-Supergorshkov is for the ocean.
                        - working dogs - PLO corvettes (with developed means of PLO and air defense restrictions - for the sake of fit in the VI 1500 - 2000 tons)

                        One submarine on duty, as was officially announced today on the basis of civilians, and not only Tu-204-214, already built and standing at the fence, will be able to cover an incommensurably large water area and will work quieter and more efficiently. Here you have the flying dog. laughing
                        + limited ammunition. Curse of small VI.

                        He is a BMZ ship, he does not need to raider in isolation from bases. Amers have not so many Poseidons. Dozens do not trample. And brush off the Harpoons, which he drags, too, is enough.smile
                      11. bayard
                        bayard 17 January 2020 02: 02
                        +1
                        Quote: D16
                        He showed nothing but insufficient GEM.

                        Is it only the GEM? And how does Zaslon work there? And what about the BIUS? There are no complaints about habitability, because of such a dense line-up? To what extent are the possibilities of "Reduta" paired with "Zaslon" revealed? Doesn't he miss Polyment?
                        A few months before the decision was made to integrate on the Zaslon corvette, instead of the non-puffed Polyment, I suggested trying Zaslon for these purposes, purely empirically in ordinary conversation. The idea may have been flying in the air, but already 10 years have passed ... perhaps they brought it ... but at what cost and for what price? And how much did Polyment's characteristics shrink?
                        Any question price must be reasonable and justified. If a finished ship has a hull cost of only 15% of the full price, then why save on VI to the detriment of a number of characteristics? In the VI of the frigate, all these systems would be placed much more harmoniously and would reveal their full potential. And it would be possible to put a normal "Polyment" together with "Redoubt". If 20385 turned out at a price almost like "Gorshkov" ... it is better to build "Gorshkovy" in the required quantity. Or a lightweight version of them, with a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.
                        "Universal" is always worse than "specialist", in any profession. And the smaller the displacement of the subject, the clearer it is.
                        Small VI ships must be specialists. All the more so for work at BMZ, where they can always rely on basic fighter aircraft. And early radar support will be provided by over-the-horizon radars, coastal and shipborne radars, and AWACS aircraft for complete happiness (send Akhura-Mazda their number as soon as possible and sufficient). It is much faster and easier for fighters to disperse aircraft from submarines than to aim from a ship's air defense system at maximum range. And for the shipborne "Redoubt" (and especially for the corvette), the maximum interception range is 60 - 70 km. Let me remind you of "Pantsir-M" - 40 km. , and he will fight off the "Harpoons" too.
                        As a former officer of the command and control command of the command post of an air defense formation, I am flattered by so much attention to air defense systems in the fleet, but this should have its own reasonable limit. When the 20385 was being designed, there were no plans for "Pantsir-M" yet, and the only thing that could be made from light air defense systems was the "Dagger" with its 12 km. range ... Of course, I wanted more and began dancing around the "Redoubt" in a small building ... Agree, the experiments were not very successful (especially at 20380). And too expensive and complicated. After all, they should not only be used, but also maintained, and tuned, and repaired, and calibrated (here I am talking about the radio engineering part, with which even the old systems ... at the Pacific Fleet had considerable problems). And on the ship they will be operated by ordinary contract soldiers and a midshipman ...
                        Quote: D16

                        Taki build. Project 20386. And the Gorshkov-Supergorshkov is for the ocean.

                        In this Wonderland, only the lazy did not trample. Laziness is repeated ... the word wrecking - softly, sabotage - closer, but time will tell, maybe they will sort it out better. I see the only benefit from it in the experience of creating a power plant with an electric transmission. In the future it may come in handy. But after all, it’s just not yet. And the prospects are foggy.
                        And the picture you drew on the organization of PLO in BMZ is good, I would even say - beautiful, but ... as my teacher at a military university (military) in mathematical analysis said, "this is all an empirical question." And in real life, you yourself know how things are with the submarine aviation, how many diesel-electric submarines we have and how many will appear in the foreseeable future, how things are with the surface submarine component of the BMZ and that in the coming years the situation will not improve much. Therefore, the issue must be approached comprehensively, without neglecting any component, because a mistake in planning will lead to failures for many years. Already led, but there were objective reasons for that ...
                        Here is a good example:
                        Quote: D16

                        One submarine on duty, as was officially announced today on the basis of civilians, and not only Tu-204-214, already built and standing at the fence, will be able to cover an incommensurably large water area and will work quieter and more efficiently. Here you have the flying dog.

                        But even one such aircraft will appear very soon. As "officially declared" this miracle will happen closer to 2030, it is not known in what quantities and in what capacity. If with the notorious "Novella", then there will be little sense from them. If with what we are vaguely hinted at ... maybe by 2030 we will approach the capabilities of a potential adversary, at least qualitatively (never quantitatively). but of course they will not be able to constantly circle over the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the Sea of ​​Japan, in the zones of the straits of the Kuril ridge. This requires NKs. In sufficient quantity and quality.
                        And if you are familiar with the weather, which are there for six months or more, then you yourself will agree that it will be difficult to serve corvettes in such conditions - we need frigates. And corvettes for guarding bases and in good weather.
                        The same is true for SF.
                        And it’s not at all ridiculous to ditch a ton of money and time for R&D and the construction of ships that do not correspond to the fleets of the BZ.
                        Therefore, looking at today and tomorrow, I do not share the enthusiasm from what I saw. In this, the position of Klimov and Timokhin is closer to me, and the situation needs to be corrected. hi
                      12. D16
                        D16 18 January 2020 22: 14
                        0
                        Is it only the GEM? And how does Zaslon work there? And what about the BIUS? There are no complaints about habitability, because of such a dense line-up? To what extent are the possibilities of "Reduta" paired with "Zaslon" revealed? Doesn't he miss Polyment?

                        http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg
                        GOSy continue. While the steamer was not returned for revision.
                        but at what price and at what price?

                        Candles not purchased in our church are not a sacrifice to God (c) laughing These candles were bought in our church laughing .
                        it is better to build "Gorshkovs" in the required quantity. Or a lighter version of them, with a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.

                        Good bodies are not born often.
                        GEM with electric transmission.

                        There is no electric transmission there.
                        But even one such aircraft will appear very soon.


                        Tomorrow war? request
                      13. bayard
                        bayard 19 January 2020 01: 09
                        0
                        Quote: D16
                        Tomorrow war?

                        What if tomorrow?
                        Or the day after tomorrow ?
                        The army and navy must be ready for war at any moment of their existence - this is their purpose.
                        1914 - "Nobody wanted war. War was inevitable."
                        Or is the situation in the world easier?
                        Or are we surrounded by friends and allies?
                        Or are our enemies not capable of madness?

                        Quote: D16

                        http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg
                        GOSy continue. While the steamer was not returned for revision.

                        And God forbid that they do not return, he is needed at the Pacific Fleet, let him run there in the spring.
                        But they refused to lay new ones.
                        And why ?
                        But because there are much more questions to such a ship than answers. Moreover, the answers are positive, confident and unambiguous.
                        And no, the most successful tests will not bring its price to a reasonable and acceptable value.
                        Quote: D16
                        Candles not purchased in our church are not a sacrifice to God (c) These candles were bought in our church.

                        Have you truly decided that I am lobbying for some commercial or industrial interests from the military-industrial complex?
                        Past.
                        Just the topic of the optimal corvette and frigate of the PLO, we have been discussing at VO for more than a year, and in such dialogues with you we have already pushed these topics up and down.
                        Quote: D16
                        it is better to build "Gorshkovs" in the required quantity. Or a lighter version of them, with a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.

                        Good bodies are not born often.

                        Now in designing it is wiser to "dance" from the GEM. And we have had successful cases before. If for such a frigate (3500 - 4000 t.) To put a power plant from "Gorshkov", its speed will jump up to 30 knots, which would be very good.
                        Other options were also offered.
                        Quote: D16
                        There is no electric transmission there.

                        Then there is no sense in it, from the word "absolutely".
                        But there were just conversations. In any case, at low speed.
                        Quote: D16
                        http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg

                        A beautiful photograph, but the hand is reaching out to make some changes ... But the price is that way ... I wish him to finish the tests soon and leave for the Pacific Fleet. And to his sistership the same.

                        And for complete clarity. I am not an opponent of "Reduta" in favor of "Pantsir-M" as such. I am for rationality, technical and financial feasibility (alas, our budget is limited) and for the rhythm of the defense industry and the timely receipt of ships in the fleet.
                        And yet - corvettes are not the main class of ships in our fleet, and their construction should not interfere, hinder or delay the construction and commissioning of a ship of the main classes. The production facilities of Zelenodolsk are quite suitable for this, the competencies are quite consistent, the presence of such a production site as the Kerch "Zaliv" adds weights to its bowl ...
                        Will it be possible to establish the construction of a properly modernized version of 20380 at its facilities?
                        Not sure .
                        Unfortunately . All the same - capitalism, the lobbying of their interests by competing design bureaus, and the personal ambitions of leaders and officials ...
                        Stalin could.
                        But we do not have Stalin.
                        And not Stalin's Commissars.
                        It's a pity ! yes
                      14. D16
                        D16 19 January 2020 10: 35
                        0
                        And God forbid that they do not return, he is needed at the Pacific Fleet, let him run there in the spring.

                        Remember how many years the Polyment was refined at the Gorshkov. And I would not be surprised at all if a mast with a Barrier appears on the SuperGorshkov.
                        But they refused to lay new ones.
                        And why ?

                        Due to the lack of a suitable GEM.
                        Have you truly decided that I am lobbying for some commercial or industrial interests from the military-industrial complex?
                        Past.

                        Not at all. I wrote that the money spent on 20385 remains in our economy and is partially returned to the budget in the form of taxes. So I don’t see the point of scolding. We have already stepped on the rake of creating specialized ships. Recall pr 1155 and 956. History repeats itself within the framework of a smaller displacement.
                        Then there is no sense in it, from the word "absolutely".
                        But there were just conversations. In any case, at low speed.

                        There should be CODLAG or CODLOG. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODLAG
                        I do not know for sure. But there is no question of a full electric ship.
                        And yet - corvettes are not the main class of the ships of our fleet, and their construction should not interfere, hamper or delay the construction and commissioning of the ship of the main classes.

                        We need to build what we can build. At the moment it is only 20380 and on the way 22350 and 20386.
                        There is nothing else due to the lack of a power plant.
                        And we have had successful cases before. If for such a frigate (3500 - 4000 t.) To put a power plant from "Gorshkov", its speed will jump up to 30 knots, which would be very good.

                        It turned out, and then from them for many decades squeezed all the juices. 1135 is an example of this. 1154 is an example of an unsuccessful platform that was abandoned by building two buildings. Why develop a frigate with a VI of 3,5-4 kT, if there is a well balanced Gorshkov 4,5 kT? Reducing the VI with the same volume and weight of the power plant will have to reduce the BC and fuel supply. It was not for nothing that on 20386 they began to be wise with CODLAG and VRSH, which we did not have on the ships of this class. By the way, the ship should be very balanced and if everything goes together, it will be much better than 11356.
              2. Nemchinov Vl
                Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 20: 08
                0
                Quote: D16
                ... What do we have from this "Gepard +" besides 16 UKSK? There is no GEM for him. There are no means of self-defense against torpedoes, as well as the zonal air defense complex. A small podkilny GUS, possibly OGA ...

                And here Ryabov raised a topic that everyone is interested in discussing !! Good girl.
                Quote: bayard
                ... "Package-NK" and on this corvette is not difficult to install. Yes, I think he is there and so it should be ...

                Well, as for the performance characteristics of the proposed project (its filling), then probably for more substantive disputes, you need to wait for more skillful insiders of information space (like Alexander Timokhin or Andrey from Chelyabinsk). Those before "raise the topic of a new project", to put it mildly "do not hesitate to inquire about his performance characteristics" !!!
                Quote: D16
                ... This is a complete alteration of the building for GAS Zarya 2 in the nasal bulb, BUGAS, which was not present at Zelenodolsk projects,
                Not a fact (in terms of a complete alteration of the body). And of course Zarya-2 is needed there, and I am sure that the customer (in the person of the Navy) will definitely indicate this, and Zelenodolsk, seeing the interest in his project, the customer, will definitely enter it successfully !!
                Quote: bayard
                In addition, the fact that Zelenodolsk will be involved in this project (this is precisely his profile) will allow Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg to be unloaded for projects of the highest priority for them - DMZ and OZ ships - 22350 and 22350M. They also need to be built in commodity quantities.
                and this is also a great argument!
                Quote: D16
                What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics?
                Good question. And really I will wait for Timokhin's "reportage" about this new project. I think he will tell about the planned power plant ?! And then it will be more interesting for us to discuss. In any case, there will be "what to discuss" - I want to believe ...
                Quote: bayard
                It will be cheaper, because we saved on Polyment-Redut.
                ... I think so. it seems to me that Pantsir-M will be enough for the PLO corvette (well, the maximum is Calm-1) and then, if you count it as a ship for long-distance escorts, although I am inclined to believe that such missions are more likely for frigates 22350, and not for the OVR and PLO corvette in BMZ ...
    3. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 39
      +1
      Quote: Luty
      It would be better to continue the construction of 20385.
      Nah .. Not better. Too expensive, and already because of that - not rational!
      1. D16
        D16 16 January 2020 21: 46
        0
        Nah .. Not better. Too expensive, and already because of that - not rational!

        To whom does the fleet pay this money? Own defense industry. With this money they regularly pay taxes, people get a white salary. The money spent on the construction of its excellent ship cannot be spent irrationally because it is direct support for its own defense industry. They will not support theirs; in five years they will have to support the Chinese.
  8. Pashhenko Nikolay
    Pashhenko Nikolay 14 January 2020 18: 50
    +4
    Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 14 January 2020 19: 21
      -1
      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts..

      I liked the statement of one colleague here at the forum: "Russia is entering the era of virtual weapons."
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 54
      +10
      Well, it’s easy to rivet the models. By the way, the news about the introduction of the Chinese destroyer did not.






      6 destroyers of this project are already on the water. These are not sticky models wink
      Project 055 Nanchang lead destroyer was launched in Shanghai on June 28, 2017 . On December 26, 2019, the launch ceremony of the sixth destroyer of project 055 was held at the shipyard in Dalian.

      Destroyers of this project are the largest under construction Now there are non-aircraft escort surface warships in the world, with an estimated total displacement of about 13 thousand tons and a length of 180 meters. Project 055 destroyers will be equipped with universal vertical launchers with 112 cells for missiles for various purposes.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 32
        -6
        Corvette, pr. 20385 this Chinese destroyer will tear like a turtle to God.

        The Chinese’s missiles are not long-range, ours fly further, which means that our ships will be able to hit the Chinese without entering their zone of destruction, no matter how much they do.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 15 January 2020 09: 42
          +3
          This destroyer has the same missiles - by analogy with Shtil1 => HQ-16. And the same Americans believe that Russia is bypassing the treaty banning the sale of missiles over 300 km by transferring production technology. Which by the way is also presented officially.


          And even before 112 missiles, the fruit of the S-300PMU + F + Chinese crazy hands, with control on new radars. Do they live 8 Caliber? wink Even if we take the supersonic breakthrough stage in the last 40km.
    3. alexmach
      alexmach 15 January 2020 00: 04
      +1
      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.

      And I think the appearance of this particular layout is very positive news. The abundance of information about new corvettes and ersatz-corvettes means that now there is a choice of a ship for the near sea zone, which means those problems about which only the lazy is not shouting on the forum are clear and work is underway to solve them. And apparently thoughtfully and without fuss as with the Karakurt "replacing" frigates.
      1. bayard
        bayard 15 January 2020 06: 02
        0
        Quote: alexmach
        thoughtfully and without fuss as with the Karakurt "replacing" the frigates.

        Original opinion. feel
        But the "Karakurt" (and "Buyan") changed / replace other RTOs and compensate ( yes ) unbuilt (for objective reasons) frigates - carriers of the CD. Couldn't build frigates for some time, they built a herd of RTOs with the same "Calibers". With external target designation, they can also do something. But they definitely did not replace the frigates.
    4. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 20: 21
      0
      Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay
      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.
      ... Well, as they say - "What are rich ..." !!! request
  9. Snail N9
    Snail N9 14 January 2020 18: 51
    0
    "Maybe" - "can't", and if "can" .... Again, everything is in the future tense, that is, "nothing" ... As we like, everything is "not enough" - to "cheap and tasteful" , such as "under-frigate", "under-corvette", etc. Only now, everything that is "under" is not good, it is - "under".
  10. swzero
    swzero 14 January 2020 18: 59
    0
    In my opinion, the IPC project based on karakut is more interesting.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 51
      +4
      Well, there are minuses and limitations. Again - do PLO corvette with three booming high-speed 112 cylinders each, this is the level of the 70s.
    2. Luty
      Luty 14 January 2020 20: 28
      +1
      Nothing good on the basis of karakurt as an IPC does not work. These are different concepts. Karakurt is the newly re-organized MRKA project 1234 and this is his success. And the IPC must be done on the basis of 1124 or even from scratch, but first you need to decide on the propulsion system.
      1. bayard
        bayard 15 January 2020 06: 08
        0
        The proposed project of the corvette is designed on the basis of "Cheetah", which is much better than 1124 and was created to replace it.
        If instead of Palma there is Pantsir-M, it will be an excellent BMZ ship.
      2. swzero
        swzero 17 January 2020 14: 19
        0
        https://topwar.ru/166159-shag-v-pravilnuju-storonu-zasvechen-proekt-mnogocelevogo-karakurta-plo.html
        I think a good option
  11. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 14 January 2020 19: 08
    +2
    Behind it, on a superstructure, is the Palma air defense missile and artillery complex. Near the hangar are two six-barreled anti-aircraft guns.

    And why is this duplication? I'm not even talking about "Palm", which is regularly slandered that it is not a ZRAK but a ZAK because of problems with the SAM.
    Something seems to me that the fleet will demand to replace the "Palma" with "Pantsir-M". And even two (the second - in the aft sectors, instead of a pair of "blowtorches").
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 20: 55
      +2
      Something seems to me that the fleet will demand to replace the "Palma" with "Pantsir-M". And even two (the second - in the aft sectors, instead of a pair of "blowtorches").

      Where to? To the roof of the hangar? laughing
      1. bayard
        bayard 15 January 2020 06: 27
        0
        Quote: D16
        Where to? To the roof of the hangar?

        Instead.
        And the hangar is mobile.
    2. bayard
      bayard 15 January 2020 06: 25
      0
      Even one "Pantsir-M" instead of "Palma" will radically change air defense capabilities. The second aft will probably be a little expensive. And you will have to abandon the capital hangar by installing a sliding one. Which, by the way, would be the best solution if the price remains within reason.
      It's just that the price with two "Pantsir-M" will be already like 20380. And with one - it seems to be cheaper.
      At the same time, 16 missile launchers in the UKSK will make it possible to have missile-torpedoes, "Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircons" (if God gives them to us) in the ammunition load of any configuration: missile-torpedoes, depending on the BR.
      The main thing is to have a good towed GUS. And if she and "Pantsir" will be, it will be the best that you can wish for the fleet in BMZ.
      And of course "Packet-NK", but now it goes for every ship from the corvette and above. hi
  12. Demagogue
    Demagogue 14 January 2020 19: 17
    +5
    Quote: bars1
    And you can determine what weapons and equipment he has, and which not, from these muddy pics?

    Everything is clear from one quote. “The ship’s missile armament has been doubled at least (16 missiles), it has more powerful air defense systems, and the capabilities of anti-submarine defense have been significantly enhanced by a permanent-based helicopter,” Dmitry Kabirov, chief engineer of Ak Bars Corporation, told RIA Novosti Crimea.


    PLO are going to build around the helicopter. What an absurdity for such a small ship. Is that calm. Plus, the capabilities of our helicopters are, to put it mildly, limited. There are no modern torpedoes for helicopters. Submersible gas has a limited range. Bombs just throw.

    To call what is standing there, the air defense language also will not turn.

    One lie. The lack of a towed station without options. I do not see the package. Maybe my eyesight is let down by the senile.
  13. fiberboard
    fiberboard 14 January 2020 19: 26
    0
    We’ll listen to the message tomorrow, they’ll tell you everything.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 39
      0
      Quote: fiberboard
      We’ll listen to the message tomorrow, they’ll tell you everything.

      Hello Santa Claus, cotton beard ...
  14. Orkraider
    Orkraider 14 January 2020 20: 10
    +2
    Corvette project 11664: there are chances to get to the construction


    God forbid!
    We need PLO ships, and inexpensive corvettes, like the 20380 of the latest series with an updated mast.
    But there is no GAS, nor Package-NK, nor RBU. As a PLO this is an empty place.
    I don’t feel like talking about air defense, it isn’t in fact, what kind of “small frigate” is it?

    God forbid!
    1. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 22: 08
      0
      Quote: Orkraider
      Need ships PLO,
      yes ...
      Quote: Orkraider
      и inexpensive corvettes
      so everyone is for ... !!
      Quote: Orkraider
      like 20380
      so it directly contradicts the concept - inexpensive corvettes .. That's just the point!
      Quote: Orkraider
      latest series with an updated mast.
      those. even more expensive than the "first" ...?!
      Quote: Orkraider
      God forbid!
      it's just about 20380 !! for just he -
      Quote: Orkraider
      As a PLO this is an empty place.
      ...
      Quote: Orkraider
      And on this there is neither GAS nor Package-NK,
      from Ryabov's article, to speak confidently about performance characteristics, and at least "a relatively accurate composition of weapons" ...?! You read between the lines ?! ...
      1. Orkraider
        Orkraider 17 January 2020 00: 40
        +1
        Are you reading between the lines ?! ...

        I think logically.
        This proposal is a converted version of the project 11661, the version delivered to the Russian Navy 11661-K - HAC and GAS does not.
        Even if we assume that this option is to get a set from Cheetah 3.9 (GAK Zarnitsa "MGK-335M, mid-frequency range with a subkeeping antenna), then, in comparison with 20380 (GAK Zarya-2 in a bow bulb, towed by GAS" Minotavr-M " and lowered GAS "Anapa-M"), a significantly simplified hydroacoustic armament is obtained (with the abandonment of the SJSC "Zarya" and replacing it with an older one and with worse performance characteristics of GAS MG-335M.

        For the rest of your
        so it directly contradicts the concept of inexpensive corvettes

        those. even more expensive than the "first" ...?!

        I will answer:
        It does not contradict.
        20380 balanced and inexpensive corvette, cheaper than 20385 and at the same time has acceptable air defense and anti-aircraft defense. And the integrated tower mast design (IBMK), without increasing the price excessively, increases the characteristics.

        And most importantly: where do the power plants come from?
        Those characteristics that are indicated directly hint at a CODOG twin-shaft power plant (1 diesel engine 86B 18DRPN + 2 x gas turbine engine M90 ​​full speed + power plant 3 diesel generators) we can’t get from Ukraine ... they are with a creak for the Vietnamese Cheetahs given out.

        Therefore, based on this, I wrote: God forbid.
        Better than 20380, which is mastered and can be produced without a lottery with a deadline and an end result. Plus, this "small frigate" I think will be worth at least 12 ... and this is the cost of 20380))

        PS. I sincerely hope that they didn’t blurt out about a series of 20380 at the NEA ..
        1. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 17 January 2020 01: 30
          +1
          Quote: Orkraider
          I will answer: It does not contradict.
          from what ?!
          Quote: Orkraider
          Plus, this "small frigate" I think will be worth at least 12 ...
          forgive what 12 ?! If we are talking about billion rubles ?! Well, even the first 20380 cost from 17 !! And then they came close to 20 ... In my opinion (if I guessed the course of your thought regarding the units of measurement of value), then 12 will be much "tastier" for re-equipping the fleet of outdated Albatrosses, at 11664!
          Quote: Orkraider
          and this is the cost of 20380
          but there are not 12, but already about 20 billion rubles. for a unit !! Which to call -
          Quote: Orkraider
          20380 balanced and inexpensive corvette
          already the language does not turn!
          Quote: Orkraider
          has acceptable air defense
          excessively expensive for a PLO corvette in BMZ, (and yes, the effective use of "Reduta's long-range missiles" on corvettes that do not have a "Polyment" antenna still raises sincere doubts among many?!) Assuming that this opinion is true , then it is wiser to complete the Shtil-1 air defense missile system corvettes (the price is lower, the effective range is 50-70 km.) ?! and
          Quote: Orkraider
          and PLO
          absent from the word "nothing" (or at all). For Gak "Zarya" will be able to detect, but at 20380 there is nothing to attack the submarine of a potential enemy, at any significant range ?!
          Effective range of "Packet" ?! I ask you to !! As a complex of anti-torpedo protection, - Yes!, But to call it effective anti-submarine weapons (14 - well, even 18 km.) ?! Which boat will let you in ?!
          Concerning
          Quote: Orkraider
          Even if we assume that this option is to get a set from the Cheetah 3.9
          ?! Well, uuu ... there the VI was 1700, and if we consider that in the proposed project 11664 it was increased to 2500, then I see no objective reasons for not appearing there for the same SJSC "Zarya-2", and I completely agree with you, that on the PLO corvette it is necessary. those. its presence suggests itself, and when formulating an order for the Navy, it will push through, do not hesitate.
          Quote: Orkraider
          And most importantly: where do the power plants come from?
          Yes, at present this is perhaps the most pressing issue, I agree. Probably Zelenodolsk will offer something like sustainer diesels (perhaps promising 16D-500?!) And as afterburner, "Saturnovskie" GTEs (possibly of the M-70FRU type) ?! Let’s wait and see how the people say.
          Quote: Orkraider
          Therefore, based on this, I wrote: God forbid.
          Better than 20380, which is mastered and can be issued without a lottery with a term of
          at 4-6 years old ?! and this is for a corvette !!, with a fabulous price! and just an unjustifiably "skewed armament" in the direction of air defense, instead of an anti-aircraft defense ?!
          1. Orkraider
            Orkraider 17 January 2020 09: 48
            +1
            Well ... uh ... there was 1700 VI, and given that in the proposed project 11664 it was increased to 2500, I don’t see objective reasons

            In this discussion, we are talking about what we see. On the layout there is no Dawn, will appear or not, the grandmother said in two. For his appearance will have to redesign the case.

            missing from the word "nothing" (or at all). For Gak "Zarya" can detect, but at 20380 there is nothing to attack the submarine of a potential enemy

            Up to 12 km package, at a greater range - a helicopter. RBU is not enough, I agree.

            sorry what 12? If we are talking about billion rubles ?! Well, even the first 20380 cost from 17 !! And after and right up to 20 came ...
            Incorrectly written. The cost of the Cheetah supplied to Vietnam was 12 billion, taking into account the addition of UkSK and increasing displacement, the cost of the new project will approach 20380. But to compare and evaluate without the exact composition of the weapons and the final appearance of this project is stupid.

            Further discussion with fortune-telling does not make sense, for they have already gone into speculation, as you wrote:
            We’ll live - we will see how people say.
  15. Foxnova
    Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 14
    -1
    Another corvette 11661. 20380. 20385. 20386. Now this is a miracle

    His time is gone it's like a budget option 20380

    As with frigates 11356 and 22350

    Put on 20380 inclined pu for calibers if you need them so much

    Need a corvette, flat, throw 2 compartments 22800, set the gas and the platform for the helicopter cheap and angry

    And drive the series on Zelenodolsk Pella Bay to the gas station it was necessary not to build 22800, but to continue building in 20380, since we walked the factory that I built before. Then there will probably be motor and inflatable boats
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 22
      0
      it's like a budget option 20380
      But 20380 is not going to pawn anymore, that’s the problem. This project has degenerated into a re-corvette 20386. A submarine at our borders, something to look for.
      1. Foxnova
        Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 45
        +1
        Rumor has it that they will continue the series at the NEA
      2. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 23: 49
        0
        Quote: Vadmir
        But 20380 is not going to pawn anymore, that’s the problem.
        Well, rather than a problem, but a belated enlightenment, from impractical sprayed funds ....
    2. Vadmir
      Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 24
      0
      Need a corvette, flat, throw 2 compartments 22800, set the gas and the platform for the helicopter cheap and angry
      The same option and a similar project also exist.
      1. Foxnova
        Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 35
        +1
        There is no helicopter

        But this monster is just a horror without air defense systems, but judging by the layout from the MF RLK. Why is it there is a rhetorical question
        It seems that they found the layout 20385 and let's cut off the mast and so it doesn’t look like they screwed it onto the hangar !!!! So that the cable runs along the entire ship

        I remember the layout 22350M which was assembled according to the same principle already came across and let’s give a little more
    3. Tiksi-3
      Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 49
      +1
      Quote: FoxNova
      Put on 20380 inclined pu for calibers if you need them so much

      belay fool
      Quote: FoxNova
      And drive

      there we drive you .... and you all come back
      1. Foxnova
        Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 52
        0
        Yeah, only the country needs ships and not layouts ....
  16. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 14 January 2020 20: 22
    -2
    my opinion is that the variety and number of surface ships is already becoming redundant, so far only build minesweepers and submarines, and after 10 years to return to the question of building a surface fleet
  17. Stils
    Stils 14 January 2020 20: 26
    +4
    Give the layouts !!! Many and different!
    It's time to learn how to do full-size inflatable! Somewhere, on the approach to the Faroe-Icelandic border, he inflated a whole warrant, the submarine of the probable enemy pulled over Opa too! RPKSNy in the ladies laughing
  18. Eug
    Eug 14 January 2020 21: 58
    0
    As for me, take a perfectly worked out body of the Albatross, equip it with functionally justified weapons (the functions are the same as those of the Albatrosovskys, only the "modernized" iron, for example, instead of the Wasp - Dagger or Pantsir, etc.). Weight and overall dimensions will decrease and due to the freed up masses and places to place a pair of helicopter drones. For BMZ and the "closure" of the inner seas, control of the deployment routes of the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces, and the dispersal of hostile MCPLA will be enough. It will be inexpensive and easy to learn l / s.
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 22: 32
      +3
      for example, instead of a Wasp - Dagger or Shell. The overall dimensions will decrease and, due to the freed masses and places, place a couple of drones.

      He will walk with you with a "Pig" Shell, but with a Dagger (40 + tons), he will drown in general.
      For BMZ and the "closure" of the inner seas, control of the deployment routes of the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces, and the dispersal of hostile MCPLA will be enough.

      Theoretically, the albatross could find something only in a drift with the release of the OGAS. Given the radically reduced noise level on modern boats, you will have to set up the MPC every 2-3 miles. lol
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 January 2020 10: 42
      +1
      Quote: Eug
      As for me, take a well-developed Albatross building

      Is the Khabarovsk Shipyard still alive? With "Poroshenko's Forge", everything is clear.
      And the second - what to do with the power plant? We simply do not have a gas turbine engine. And you already know about the situation with the M507.
      Besides, "Zvezdovskie" diesels with 112 pots each are not the best choice for a ship, the main working means of which is acoustics.
      Quote: Eug
      The overall dimensions will decrease and due to the freed masses and places to place a couple of drones of the helicopter circuit.

      Which ones? We've been trying to copy Horizons for ten years without any exit. Moreover, it was not the fleet that ordered them, but the FSB - and still to no avail. Because of this, the faces even refused to continue the purchase of PSKR with helicopter pads. back to the Fireflies.
      By and large, we have only one helicopter for the Navy - the Ka-27. From this we must dance.
      1. Eug
        Eug 15 January 2020 14: 53
        0
        I did not expect that everything is so sad ... then an increase in displacement and cost is inevitable ...
  19. Demagogue
    Demagogue 14 January 2020 22: 33
    +3
    By the way, after reading an interview with an engineer of Akbars, I had a strong feeling that 11664 is a development of Buyan-M. From here the lack of air defense is inherited and the main task is to cram more calibers. As I understand it, the number of calibers is the main thing that determines the choice of a project for our military leadership. PLO does not bother anyone at all. Therefore, when showing models to Putin, they emphasized the number of cells. Why we are building these floating batteries is not clear.
    1. alexmach
      alexmach 15 January 2020 00: 21
      +1
      PLO doesn't bother anyone at all

      Firstly, there is a bulb of a sap-like GAS. Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 January 2020 15: 33
        +1
        Quote: alexmach
        Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.

        To do this, it’s easier, cheaper and faster to form new RBDs with CRNB and order equipment for them.
        In addition, these brigades have greater survivability (because the Navy is unable to provide either PLO or PMO "caliber carriers", and we only have air defense near the naval base) and can be quickly transferred between theaters.
  20. Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 15 January 2020 08: 24
    +5
    Already at first glance, the need to strengthen the PLO and air defense of this ship is striking, otherwise we will get a huge missile boat with a displacement, with a helicopter, without PLO and with air defense at the level of RTOs
  21. Demagogue
    Demagogue 15 January 2020 09: 44
    -1
    Quote: alexmach
    PLO doesn't bother anyone at all

    Firstly, there is a bulb of a sap-like GAS. Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.

    The caliber carrier can also be made from a container ship by an auxiliary cruiser. Not much worse than this barge will be. And also vulnerable to modern squares without towed gas and jamming stations. We repeat the mistakes of the Argentines. In the Falkland War, they had a surface fleet that could take part in the war, but due to inadequate PLO remained at the bases.
  22. Pavel57
    Pavel57 15 January 2020 12: 37
    0
    Good luck Zelenodoltsy in competition with SPKB.
    It is a pity, the patrol ship of project 11540 remained in only two copies.
  23. ser56
    ser56 15 January 2020 13: 36
    -1
    Again they came up with a nedofregat instead of a corvette ... request
  24. Cympak
    Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 53
    0
    Zelenodolsk Design Bureau offered interesting options for the OVR corvette contest - vessels with outriggers (ATS)
    Corvette "Rusich-1500"

    And in fact the frigate "Rusich-2400"

    And this 11664 against their background is some kind of misunderstanding :(
  25. Demagogue
    Demagogue 15 January 2020 17: 06
    -1
    Quote: bayard

    But the ship is good - the hull and power plant from "Cheetah"
    And for the price it will be cheaper than 20380. While being much more powerful in PLO and shock capabilities.

    Hello. Half-empty cheetahs were sold to Vietnam for $ 350 million, and 22800 costs 10 times cheaper. Swedish Visby for comparison is 150 million, which is very expensive for us.
  26. lopuhan2006
    lopuhan2006 15 January 2020 18: 03
    -1
    Pot, do not cook !!!!! This is just a tin going on in the minds of the Navy. 100500 project of the next corvette (IPC, MRK, patrolman, etc.). But 20350 ..... 4 and again the new super20350.
  27. bk0010
    bk0010 15 January 2020 22: 31
    0
    Let everyone build 22350: he has both air defense, and anti-aircraft defense, and price, and displacement correspond. And the helicopter fits without dancing with a tambourine. And I will build corvettes later, when we decide what and how much is needed (I - for 20385: albeit expensive, but there is everything. I suspect that if our corvettes cost half as much, then they would not be twice as much: they would rest in industry, in basing, in the absence of personnel, etc.). I really do not want to replace zonal air defense with self-defense air defense even on the corvette - it is fraught: we have few ships, and the states have many planes. And so - a bunch will be a chance to brush it off on occasion.
  28. storm
    storm 16 January 2020 00: 14
    0
    Recently, the Chinese Navy received the 52nd corvette of the Type 056 project, and taking into account the already laid corps, their number will soon be 60 ...
    All that is required for the OVR corvette is present on these ships.
    The most suitable Russian analogue was recently presented by the Almaz Central Design Bureau


    As a revision of the project:
    - increase in water displacement up to 1,5 ct
    - Replacement of SAM Bending on the Shell-M
    - installation of inclined launchers for anti-ship missiles (Uranus, Caliber) to the right and left of the RBU

    Count on 60 units. The Russian Navy does not have to, but 24-30 units. quite a lifting series ...
  29. storm
    storm 16 January 2020 00: 51
    0
    The small anti-submarine ship of the 23420 project should have a displacement of 1300 m and the corresponding dimensions: about 75 m and maximum width up to 13 m. According to the developer’s calculations, the main power plants proposed for use will allow the ship to reach speeds up to 25-30 nodes and provide a cruising range to 2500 nautical miles The ship will be operated by a crew of 60 people. Autonomy is set at 15 days.
    The artillery in the new project is represented by one AK-176MA installation with a 76 mm gun and one 306 mm AK-30 anti-aircraft system. The ammunition load of the 76 mm installation is 152 rounds, and up to 30 shells are stored in the 500 mm system. A larger caliber artillery mount is mounted in front of the superstructure and has a characteristic faceted casing that reduces radar visibility. The location of the anti-aircraft AK-306 so far raises questions. In some figures, instead of the AK-306 and Bending, the ZRAK Broadsword is depicted.

    Also, the ship's barrel systems are represented by two heavy machine guns. This weapon with an ammunition load of 2000 rounds should be located on the pedestal installations on board.

    The main anti-aircraft weapons of the 23420 spacecraft are one 3M-47 “Bending” and 20 portable SAM systems of the “Needle” or “Needle-S” type. Such weapons can attack air targets at ranges and altitudes of up to several kilometers. At smaller distances, the destruction of air targets should be made by artillery systems.

    The main task of a promising ship, as can be seen from its classification, is the fight against enemy submarines. To destroy the detected submarines ship project 23420 must carry the appropriate weapons. In the aft part, at the sides below the level of the helipad, it is proposed to mount two launchers of the small-sized anti-submarine torpedo complex “Package-NK” or “Package-E”. Ammunition complex declared at the level of eight torpedoes. At the same time on the published images drawn twin-tube launchers.

    An additional anti-submarine vehicle is the RPK-8E Zapad complex. It includes the 12-barreled rocket launcher RBU-6000, which is used to launch the RSL-60 depth bombs or 90P anti-submarine missiles. Total ammunition system - 48 missiles and bombs. Bomb launchers must be mounted in front of the superstructure, behind the artillery.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 January 2020 17: 31
      0
      Quote: assault
      The artillery in the new project is represented by one AK-176MA installation with a 76 mm gun and one 306 mm AK-30 anti-aircraft system.

      Calling the AK-306 "anti-aircraft" is great to flatter this gun. For this is a lightweight, low-magnetic AU, developed primarily for the TSC and does not have a radar fire control system. And firing at a rocket while controlling the MZA from the sighting column is not even funny.
      And the rate of fire at the AK-306 is only 600-1000 rpm - because, to facilitate AC, the barrel water cooling system was also removed.
      Quote: assault
      The main anti-aircraft guns of the project 23420 ship are one 3M-47 "Bend" complex and 20 portable Igla or Igla-S air defense systems.

      That is, the ship does not have anti-aircraft missile defense. For even ATGMs fly farther than MANPADS missiles.
      1. storm
        storm 16 January 2020 19: 04
        0
        Therefore, I write that the AK 306 and Bending need to be immediately changed to Shell-M
  30. Livonetc
    Livonetc 16 January 2020 11: 50
    0
    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    Let's remember what ZIL produced. Cave level cars? If the VAZ bought Renault Nissan and organized the production of more or less decent cars, then no one even gotten into ZIL - hopelessly.

    He also produced small-tonnage trucks with a diesel engine.
    At the end, for example, there was such a model.
    http://www.gruzovikpress.ru/article/24212-istoriya-sozdaniya-zil-230100-samogo-malenkogo-gruzovika-marki-zil-enot-mladshiy-brat-bychka-ch-2/
  31. 257950
    257950 10 February 2020 08: 32
    0
    Another "underwafe". Short-range air defense in the front sphere, and feed with metal cutters. Such a ship is already a corpse in the coastal zone. The question is about anti-submarine defense, if the NK package with 4 anti-torpedoes and 4 anti-submarine torpedoes on each side, then this project is FIGUE, a dummy.
  32. Vedzmin
    Vedzmin 11 February 2020 18: 02
    0
    Nevertheless, it is better to improve and build one type of corvette, saturating it with the necessary weapons, including anti-submarine ones. New episode? What for? Spend the money again? But we already have a series of patrol ships :)
  33. Andrey.AN
    Andrey.AN 12 February 2020 15: 03
    0
    Let them make an empty platform, serial, it is better to leave the armament to the military.
  34. Andrey.AN
    Andrey.AN 12 February 2020 15: 17
    0
    Like a smartphone locked up with unsolved features.
  35. storm
    storm 9 March 2020 02: 26
    0
    Another "freak-caliber" from the Zelenodolsk plant.
    God forbid that someone will "push" it for the Navy
    it seems they liked to cut grandmothers into stupid highly specialized, but very expensive Buyan-M.
    Instead of the budgetary mass modernization of all MRK 1234 OVOD with the installation of inclined launchers for the Onyx anti-ship missile system and the Caliber anti-ship missile system, the fleet paid about 100 billion rubles for 12 Buyan-M MRKs with VERY Doubtful combat capabilities:
    - frankly weak air defense consisting of the "Gibka" air defense system and the "DUET" air defense system;
    - the complete absence of ASGs, anti-torpedo and anti-submarine weapons (there is no ASU even against combat swimmers);
    - bad seaworthiness;
    - lack of a platform for a light helicopter or UAV;
    - Chinese diesels with mediocre reliability and low resource;
    With these huge funds, it was possible to build a division of 6 corvettes, etc. 20380, or 3 frigates, etc. 22350.