Corvette project 11664: there are chances to get to the construction


Layout corvette Ave. 11664. Photo Bmpd.livejournal.com


In the interests of the Russian naval fleet new warships of all major classes are being developed, and several of these projects have recently been presented to the country's leadership. On January 9, an exhibition was held in Sevastopol on the prospects for the development of the Navy, during which all the major shipbuilding enterprises showed their latest products. Thus, Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation for the first time showed materials on the project of the 11664 corvette.

Premiere in Moscow


Promising prospect 11664 was developed by Zelenodolsk Design Bureau, which is part of Ak Bars Insurance Company. The ship’s layout was presented to the country's leadership by the chief engineer of the Zaliv factory in Kerch. Probably this particular enterprise is considered as a site for the construction of new ships. Together with the “11664” corvette, several other developments were demonstrated.

Like a number of other promising ships, the corvette pr. 11664 is an option of deep modernization of the frigate pr. 11661 "Cheetah", previously created Zelenodolsky design bureau. When creating a new project, the existing experience combined with modern ideas was used. In particular, the design uses ideas that correspond to the current trends in world shipbuilding.

From the ships of the previous project, the new corvette, pr. 11664, is distinguished by increased dimensions and displacement. The length increased to approximately 110 m, displacement - up to 2,5 thousand tons. It is noted that in connection with this, the new corvette turns out to be "a ship of the transitional class between the corvette and the frigate." A conditional definition of “small frigate” is also proposed.

The main differences from its predecessor are a different layout of electronic weapons, increased ammunition of the main strike weapons and more powerful air defense. Also provided is a permanent basing of a deck helicopter designed to carry out anti-submarine defense.


View from a different angle. Frame from t / n "Time", Channel One

The proposed "small frigate" has advantages over other ships of the existing types. So, he bypasses the "Cheetahs" in the number and effectiveness of weapons. Also, project 11664 is compared with patrol teams of project 11540. With comparable armament, the new corvette has almost half the displacement, which positively affects the cost of construction. According to Ak Bars Insurance Company, as a whole, the “11664” corvette has no equal in terms of the ratio of the main characteristics.

To date, Zelenodolsk Design Bureau completed the preparation of the technical design of the new corvette. If the Ministry of Defense orders such a ship, Ak Bars Corporation is ready to prepare the remaining documentation as soon as possible and begin construction. At the same time, there was a hint of readiness for mass production.

The main features


The presented layout and tabular data show the main features of the new project and allow us to evaluate some of its qualities. In general, the ship is similar to other domestic developments, but has significant differences - in some cases, they give advantages over other models.

Etc. 11664 uses a body of smooth contours, as similar as possible to that used in Project 11661. Probably, approaches to the design of part of the systems are preserved. The construction of the add-on is noteworthy. Like on a number of other ships, it is divided into several parts of different heights, and the middle one is given under the launchers of an attack rocket complex. On the aft part of the superstructure, which accommodates a hangar for a helicopter, there is an integrated mast with antenna devices - a characteristic feature of modern ships.

The type of power plant is not specified. At the Cheetahs, a combined installation with diesel and gas turbine engines is used. Probably a similar architecture is preserved in the project 11664.


Aft superstructure and deck. Frame from t / n "Time", Channel One

The composition of the corvette's armaments is interesting. On the tank in front of the superstructure is a tower artillery installation. Behind it, on a superstructure, is the Palma air defense missile and artillery complex. Near the hangar are two six-barreled anti-aircraft guns. The central part of the superstructure accommodates a universal vertical launcher with 16 cells for missiles of various types. Such launchers can use Onyx, Caliber, and, probably, perspective Zircon missiles.

The composition of electronic systems is not specified. Probably, the project uses modern samples of all the main classes, providing search and target detection, communication and electronic warfare.

Aft deck is made in the form of a landing pad for a helicopter; there is a hangar next to it in the superstructure. Helicopter type Ka-27 or similar dimensions can be based on the ship on an ongoing basis and perform various tasks.

Project Perspectives


The developer corporation has already prepared the technical design of the “11664” corvette and is ready to start construction in the shortest possible time - if there is interest from the customer. The Ministry of Defense has not yet announced its opinion on the new corvette. Accordingly, the real prospects of the project remain unknown.

In the presented form, project 11664 looks quite interesting and promising. Zelenodolsk Design Bureau on the basis of existing experience and turnkey solutions completed the ship with characteristic advantages over existing combat units. The new corvette will be able to surpass some of the "competitors" due to greater combat potential, and others due to economic advantages.


Models of new ships from SK "Ak Bars". Photo SK "Ak Bars" / sk-akbars.ru

The new project 11664 can be a modern replacement for older designs that have similar characteristics, but lose in combat qualities. According to the organization-developer, a promising corvette is able to replace both ships of its class and larger combat units.

However, you can find reasons to criticize the new project. The main problem of the new development is related to the general state of affairs in military shipbuilding. For the fleet, ships of different types with unified weapons are being built, and shipbuilding bureaus offer new projects. The construction of ships for all new projects simply does not make sense, since it leads to the unification of the fleet. For this reason, project 11664 will have to compete with other developments of its own and related classes.

Selection Issues


In the near future, the Ministry of Defense will have to familiarize itself with project 11664 and make its decision. If the project suits the fleet command, an order will appear for the development of the necessary documentation and subsequent construction. However, another development of events is possible in which the project will not be implemented in metal.

It should be noted that at the exhibition in Sevastopol, several other similar layouts were demonstrated. Ak Bars Insurance Company presented several options for further development of pr. 11661, including project 11664. They will also have to be proposed by the Ministry of Defense for evaluation, which may result in another order.

Thus, our armed forces are again offered several projects of promising warships. Thanks to this, the Navy gets the opportunity to choose the most successful models that more fully meet the requirements. Which of the recently submitted projects will be of interest to the Ministry of Defense, time will tell. Project 11664 has certain chances to reach the construction site, however, one should not show excessive optimism and overestimate its prospects.
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  1. rocket757 14 January 2020 18: 09 New
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    Do we have a concept for the presence of our fleet in the vast or near the shore?
    Under it, after all, the fleet should be built.
    1. Hunter 2 14 January 2020 19: 27 New
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      Here, one concept unfortunately is not enough! I would like the Fleet of the far sea zone, but who and Where will build it?
      We must proceed from the capabilities of shipbuilders and allied weapons.
      The project is definitely interesting in the presence of serious capabilities of the PLO, even more so - the main task of which is the PLO, to make another essentially "increased" RTOs - it makes no sense.
      1. rocket757 14 January 2020 19: 50 New
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        As always ideal, it is something complex, harmonious in content!
        BUT, as always, what we can create!
        1. Hunter 2 14 January 2020 20: 00 New
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          I agree. If the Fleet is interested in this project, Zelenodolsk shipbuilders will do everything efficiently and without delaying the deadlines!
          I repeat once again - My opinion is needed only as a Corvette PLO.
          1. D16
            D16 14 January 2020 20: 28 New
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            Will the Zeus shipbuilder also make shipbuilding facilities for him?
          2. bayard 15 January 2020 04: 24 New
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            Quote: Hunter 2
            My opinion is needed only as a Corvette PLO.

            Just like a corvette PLO. And what Zelenodolsk suggested is almost optimal if towed GAS is available. Cheetah is an excellent base for the future corvette. Beautiful hull, good GEM + reasonable layout and large (!) Ammunition in UKKS.
            What is not enough in this corvette is the air defense capabilities. But if you change the "Palm" to "Shell-M", it will be just the perfect ship of the near sea zone. It is much better optimized for these tasks (PLO corvette and guard) than 20380 and 20385.
            I was pleasantly surprised by the absence of an overload in air defense (although there is rather an underload here, as I already said), which corvettes of recent times hurt. I repeat - if you replace the "Palm" on the "Shell" it will be a very toothy ship PLO near the marine zone. 16 missiles in the UKKS will make it possible to have 8 missile torpedoes and another 8 anti-ship missiles and missiles to strike along the coast. In any combination, depending on the used knowledge base.
            It is very interesting which HAC is supposed, whether the towed HAS and the capabilities of its radar are envisaged.
            And of course the GEM, will the former be about two diesels and one afterburner turbine, or have they provided for something else?

            In any case, I liked the ship, it is much better than what was proposed and built earlier in this class. Given that the air defense will be built on the "Shell".
            If the project is approved (with the necessary corrections), then the Zelenodolsk residents will probably be able to organize its mass production, moreover, at both of its plants (including Kerch) and quickly saturate the fleets with much-needed ships.
            At the beginning of the arrival of these corvettes into service, the already constructed corvettes of previous projects (20380 and 20385) can be brought together in one connection to one of the fleets for ease of operation, repair and maintenance. And saturate other fleets with this particular type of corvette, for uniformity and unification.
            By the way, the choice of this particular type of corvette (and, as a result, the meta of its construction - Zelenodolsk and Kerch) will allow Kaliningrad and Peter to unload to work on a more serious topic - the DMZ and OZ ships (22350 and 22350M). Then, the shipbuilding program of Russia will gain harmony, rationality, consistency and balance.
            And I repeat once again - with a good towed GAS and the Pantsir-M air defense system, this corvette will be just perfect for the needs of our fleet.
            1. Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 03 New
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              Air defense is weak, and 16 UKKS are unnecessary for the BMO corvette. The location on the ZRAK tank for our latitudes is extremely unsuccessful: it will flood and freeze during winter storms.
              The question is about the engines, which for the initial project 1166 were Ukrainian. And where did you divide the pipe? It seems that the pipe was removed, UKKS stuck.
              With such weak air defense, why stuck a "pagoda" over the hangar?
              IMHO, the presented layout is a poorly developed market item
            2. Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 09 New
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              Greetings Vitaliy hi .
              Can we and you wait ?! Or does someone (from shipbuilders) still sometimes glance at forums and discussions of VO ?! How long have you and Timokhin and I discussed something like this ... Will we get through ?!
              1. bayard 15 January 2020 17: 59 New
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                Greetings Vladimir! fellow
                Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                Can we and you wait ?!

                I also thought about this when I saw the Cheetah case. After all, we read a year discussing this topic - a PLO corvette based on the Cheetah, but there were doubts about the power plant (it is Ukrainian after all). Well, now, if they offer, then they are ready to solve this problem. Moreover, there is a turbine for this, a diesel engine is on the way, and the running gears begin to do. So - they can handle it.
                Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                Will we get through ?!

                Water sharpens a stone. The main thing is the clarity, clarity and visualization of the wording.
                Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                Or does someone (from shipbuilders) still sometimes glance at forums and discussions of VO ?!

                It is quite possible, although the idea hovered in the air - to take the best that is available and to compose the ship necessary for the fleet ... True, they ... went over with "Flexible". Well, yes, they’ve apparently shoved what they are already working with. And the mast behind the chimney is not at all the coat that is permissible in life. However, maybe this is in a hurry. Navy will still require the replacement of "Bending" to "Shell" and move the mast. But if you take into account the changes that I suggested here below, it's after all ... a wonderful ship can turn out. And really a station wagon in its segment - a PLO corvette, a guard and an escort in one bottle.
                What do you think ? wink
        2. Machito 15 January 2020 02: 20 New
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          In Zelenodolsk will produce model corvettes? I also want to buy one for the collection. laughing
      2. Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 32 New
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        Quote: Hunter 2
        to make another essentially “enlarged” RTO - it makes no sense.

        what is he mrk ??? .... real corvette
  2. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 14 New
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    Oh, the boat! And what kind of helicopter is it? Kamov? So they seem to be optimized.
    1. carstorm 11 14 January 2020 18: 18 New
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      Does this somehow change the fact of the presence of spacecraft helicopters?)))
      1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 46 New
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        Quote: carstorm 11
        Does this somehow change the fact of the presence of spacecraft helicopters?)))

        Will change. repeat And something is silent about this.
        1. AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 18: 50 New
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          +1
          What changed the takeover of McDonnell Douglas by Boeing?
          1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 18: 58 New
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            Quote: AU Ivanov.
            What changed the takeover of McDonnell Douglas by Boeing?

            I do not care about them from a high pillar. I am worried about our factories. Here, the enterprise where I plowed for 12 years:
            1. AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 19: 08 New
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              Unprofitable, apparently? If the company's products are not in demand, why is it needed?
              1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 16 New
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                Quote: AU Ivanov.
                Unprofitable, apparently?

                It was a branch of ZiL. For some reason, the Chinese have preserved and increased ...
                1. AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 19: 25 New
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                  +9
                  Let's remember what ZIL produced. Cave level cars? If the VAZ bought Renault Nissan and organized the production of more or less decent cars, then no one even gotten into ZIL - hopelessly.
                  1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 29 New
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                    Quote: AU Ivanov.
                    Let's remember what ZIL produced.

                    Do you see the picture above? This is the first Chinese car factory that Soviet engineers built. Copy of ZIL.
                    1. Sergey1987 15 January 2020 09: 29 New
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                      Quote: mordvin xnumx
                      Do you see the picture above? This is the first Chinese car factory that Soviet engineers built. Copy of ZIL.

                      So the Chinese were able to develop the plant, and all that they could do under the USSR was to turn it into a loss-making plant that no one even wanted to privatize.
                  2. bk0010 15 January 2020 22: 10 New
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                    ZIL, like, sold to Mexico.
              2. strannik1985 14 January 2020 20: 20 New
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                Enterprises were profitable in the framework of the social economy.
                1. AU Ivanov. 14 January 2020 20: 24 New
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                  Social economics is itself a perversion. For some reason, our social economists believed that the Russian Vanka was worthy to ride on buckets with bolts, wear a towel and wipe himself with a newspaper.
                  1. strannik1985 15 January 2020 05: 31 New
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                    Social economics is itself a perversion

                    Tell this to the Americans, their "market" budget since 1963 has been surplus for 2 years (1999-2000).
            2. Vadim237 14 January 2020 22: 07 New
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              Well, here are the results of your 12 years of activity at the enterprise - solid ruins.
        2. carstorm 11 14 January 2020 18: 58 New
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          Yes, they immediately said after connecting the topics they will continue to develop in parallel. what should they say then)
          1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 06 New
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            Quote: carstorm 11
            yes they said right away

            What liquor products sell well?
            1. carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 28 New
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              wine-vodka is for you in Red and White. firstly, we trade not only this, and secondly, the assortment is much wider and more correctly called alcoholic products. and so now we are increasingly investing in the production of this very product. why did you suddenly get interested in this?)
              1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 34 New
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                Quote: carstorm 11
                why did you suddenly get interested in this?)

                I don’t give a damn. You are a huckster, and that’s it.
                1. carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 50 New
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                  Actually, I’m a manager with the required knowledge for each manager about financial indicators, strategy, marketing, business processes, personal effectiveness, using information technologies) I have two higher ones and an MBA degree), but you can call me whatever you like, this will not change my life )
                  1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 53 New
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                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    in general, I’m a manager with the knowledge required for each manager about financial indicators, strategy, marketing, business processes, personal effectiveness, the use of information technology) I have two higher ones and an MBA degree

                    In-in ... in a word - gouging. laughing
                    1. carstorm 11 14 January 2020 19: 56 New
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                      Well, I just agree with this) that’s why I don’t drink because I have enough of my own dope) last year when my wife crashed into a stump on a snowmobile and called me the same) but it makes no sense to argue with her)
    2. Alexey RA 14 January 2020 19: 03 New
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      Quote: mordvin xnumx
      Oh, the boat! And what kind of helicopter is it? Kamov? So they seem to be optimized.

      Does this change anything? Our traditional aviation was also optimized at the UAC, gathering there Sukhoi, Mikoyan, Ilyushin, Yakovlev and others. However, this does not interfere with the production of both the MiG family and the Su family in parallel.
      1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 10 New
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        Quote: Alexey RA
        Does this change anything?

        Yes. Kaput Kamov.
        1. Sergey1987 15 January 2020 10: 12 New
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          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          Yes. Kaput Kamov.

          Love I look nonsense to carry. In December 2019, abolished. AO Kamov is merged with AO MV Milk Mill, which is renamed the National Center for Helicopter Engineering named after M. Mil and N. I. Kamov. So according to your logic and Milu Kaput? And concern Russian Helicopters?
        2. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 10: 20 New
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          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          Yes. Kaput Kamov.

          But has Ilyushin and MiG already arrived? They have been united in the UAC for 15 years already.
          1. Mordvin 3 15 January 2020 10: 28 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            But has Ilyushin and MiG already arrived? They have been united in the UAC for 15 years already.

            Here recently procurement plans published. Solid Mi and not a single Ka.
            So, the work of the Kamov Design Bureau on creating a promising high-speed helicopter was completely frozen. Instead, the “Milevts” put up a model based on their Mi-35 helicopter, having previously “stripped” it to improve aerodynamic qualities. In this form, it was accelerated to a speed of 400 km / h, which is significantly less than that of its US competitor Sikorsky S-97 Raider. At the same time, according to Americans, as soon as the “Milevsky” perspective helicopter receives at least some weapons and combat load, its speed will drop to 330-350 km / h, which is not much higher than its current parameters. Fresh competitive “Kamov’s” proposals in the framework of the R&D program “Speed” for the study of rotor speed management, in which the combination of “braking” the rotor and increasing speed through the use of the latest Russian SM-100 aircraft engine, could bring our helicopters to previously unattainable in the world threshold of 700 km / h, were frozen without any explanation.

            https://zen.yandex.ru/media/zavtra/kto-prizemliaet-kamovaunikalnoe-vertoletnoe-kb-pod-pressom-optimizacii-5dd96bd8bd6e064b370f09a9
            1. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 15: 18 New
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              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              So, the work of the Kamov Design Bureau on creating a promising high-speed helicopter was completely frozen.

              * looks thoughtfully at the Ka-60/62, which Kamovites sawed for a quarter of a century - and still could not bring to mind and fulfill the requirements of the customer’s requirements.
              Maybe it's not about intrigue? wink
              1. Mordvin 3 15 January 2020 15: 27 New
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                Quote: Alexey RA
                Maybe it's not about intrigue?

                I don’t know, but one thing is clear - there will definitely not be competition. And we run the risk of stagnation. Especially when you consider that this year not a single Kamov was ordered. Okay, we'll see. hi
          2. V.I.P. 15 January 2020 13: 58 New
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            So what have Mig, Il, Yak done over these 15 years? IL 96 (the first flight of 1988) to which the numbers were again attached. The MiG-35 is also 29 (they increased the glider so that there would be enough fuel for a longer flight) which is especially not needed by anyone, even our MO. Yak -130 (first flight in 1995). Yak only MS 21 is trying to do. Well, when Su and Mig were united, then Pagosyan only financed SU and until he was kicked out, Mig was financed by the residual principle.
    3. Artemiy_2 14 January 2020 19: 08 New
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      Nobody Kamov will destroy as a KB. This was said 100 times
      1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 37 New
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        Quote: Artemiy_2
        Ikto Kamova as a KB will not be eliminated.

        Yes, it was just optimized.
        1. The leader of the Redskins 14 January 2020 20: 42 New
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          Do not fight with windmills. Useless. Proven by Don Quixote. And accept condolences about the enterprise ... There are hundreds, if not thousands, and, unfortunately, their collapse has already passed from the category of tragedy to the category of statistics ...
          1. Sergey1987 15 January 2020 10: 13 New
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            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            There are hundreds, if not thousands, and, unfortunately, their collapse has already passed from the category of tragedy to the category of statistics ...

            feel free to write millions. List in a studio with thousands.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  3. Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 18: 16 New
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    There is a project of the corvette 20380/20385 why else do we need almost the same, etc. 1164, but also with weak air defense.

    We need a new IPC 1124 Albatross.
    1. Vadmir 14 January 2020 19: 53 New
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      There is a project corvette 20380/20385 why else do we need almost the same
      You can agree with you, but we are talking about Zelenodolsk - the plant is on the river, they cannot build large ships. It is quite possible to order a corvette for them, if he has a good PLO, but in any case it is better than the patrolmen they are building and better than the MRK.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 21 New
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        Corvette Ave. 20380/20385 is already being built in a series, and it has much more balanced and powerful weapons with the same displacement as the proposed Ave. 11664.

        Project 20380/20385 has Polyment-Redut anti-aircraft defense, an analogue of S-350, with a range of missiles of 100-150 km, and in the future up to 400 that can paralyze all types of targets, and the corvette of Project 11664 Palma with range of 10 km.

        The corvettes, pr. 20380/20385, have anti-torpedo protection and a helicopter and several HAKs and ASGs and anti-ship weapons, in general, all that is needed to protect our near sea zone.

        And pr.11664 is some kind of misunderstanding with the Caliber, a floating battery, live until the first missile attack, Palm will hit a single target like an UAV or a helicopter or a cruise missile, but it can’t be repelled by a massive missile attack.

        Corvette pr.11664 for nothing the fleet does not need.

        Russia already has a series of corvettes, etc. 20380/20385 and they are simply excellent.

        If the plant needs an order - let them master this corvette project that has already gone into series.
        1. alexmach 14 January 2020 23: 59 New
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          Project 20380/20385 has Polyment-Redut anti-aircraft defense, an analogue of S-350, with a range of missiles of 100-150 km, and in the future up to 400 that can paralyze all types of targets, and the corvette of Project 11664 Palma with range of 10 km.

          This is a fable, there will never be such air defense on these corvettes.
      2. jonht 15 January 2020 03: 34 New
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        It seems like there was news that Zelenodolsk was transferred to the management of a plant in the Crimea, and it will become the basis for the construction of larger ships
    2. Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 37 New
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      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      why else do we need almost the same, etc. 1164, but also with weak air defense.

      it is many times cheaper!
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 27 New
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        it is many times cheaper


        A corvette without powerful air defense is not needed for nothing, there is no benefit from it, only we will destroy people and waste our resources in vain.

        If the Poliment-Redut air defense system, the Vodopad-NK anti-submarine and anti-torpedo complex are thrown out on pr. 20380, then it will also become cheaper, only it will be of little use, it will no longer be a corvette, but the patrol ship will succeed.
        1. bayard 15 January 2020 04: 57 New
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          Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
          anti-submarine and anti-torpedo complex "Waterfall-NK"

          Did you really mean Package-NK?
          For no “Waterfall” is observed on corvettes 20380 \ 20385.
          Are you interested in the capabilities of Package-NK?
          In range?
          And do these characteristics allow effective anti-submarine warfare?
          NOT !
          Do not allow !
          Effectively not allow.
          They have neither long-range torpedoes on board (like the enemy submarines), nor missile torpedoes. For there is no UKKS for them.
          At 20380 UKKS no!
          And at 20385 - is, but only for 8 KR. If you equip them with missile torpedoes for the PLO, it will become almost toothless when meeting with enemy ships.

          The proposed project is good.
          Everything, except, as you noted, is air defense.
          But if you change the "Palm" to "Shell-M", which has 3 types of missiles in its arsenal with a range of 40, 20 and 10 km, respectively ... + two six-barreled automatic machines in one rocking chair ...
          Everything changes immediately.
          For ships of this class and displacement it is irrational and simply harmful to have hypertrophied air defense. It is too expensive, complicated, takes up a lot of space in such a small building, and as a result, it infringes and sharply limits the armament's capabilities to carry out the MAIN tasks of the BMZ - PLO ship, guarding the economic zone and escorting convoys.
          The proposed design of Zelenodolsky Design Bureau is optimized to fulfill all the tasks of the BMZ ship.
          All.
          In addition to air defense. Which, however, is easy to fix with the help of "Shell-M".
          And it is MUCH cheaper than 20380 and even more so 20385, and therefore it can be produced in a LARGE series, because there are a lot of such ships on all fleets.
          Moreover, Zelenodoltsy have always specialized in ships of this class.
          And the choice of "Cheetah" as a base - just a brilliant decision.
          1. Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 30 New
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            Bad location ZRAK. The shelling sector is about 180 degrees just ahead. In case of excitement, it will be flooded on the go and freeze in the cold, which will make ZRAK not combat ready (I note that this remark is not relevant for Vietnam).
            16 cells UKKS why? Who are going to drown on an industrial scale? Enough and 8 pcs: 4 for RCC + 4 for PLUR. Working along the shore is not the task of the BMO ship. But if necessary, it is possible to replace part of the RCC / PLUR with the KR.
            1. bayard 15 January 2020 19: 24 New
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              Quote: Cympak
              Bad location ZRAK. The shelling sector is about 180 degrees just ahead. In case of excitement on the go, it will be flooded with water and freeze in the cold, which will make ZRAK not combat ready

              You are absolutely right, but "instead of" does not mean "in place." I suggest the following re-arrangement:
              - in place of "Bending" - "Broadsword".
              - on the spot of the hangar - "Pantsyr-M".
              - on the sides at the ports of Package-NK.
              - the helicopter is based not on a permanent basis, but on a temporary basis - in good weather and "spend the night" and a movable hangar to it.
              - HOOK from 22385, including towed HAS - they have the same displacement, so everything fits.

              Such a corvette will be able to successfully solve the problems of a PLO, a patrol ship, an escort and, if necessary, a shock, because this ammunition load in 16 missiles makes this easy.
              And at the same time, it is much cheaper than its predecessors, faster and more versatile ... which is even surprising for such a displacement.
              Quote: Cympak
              Working along the shore is not the task of the BMO ship.

              With the ranges of modern missiles, it is possible to shoot along the opposite bank, especially when the Caliber-M with a range of up to 4500 km appears in service. , and porridge, as you know, you won’t spoil the butter, if this is not to the detriment of the main tasks and functions.
              hi
          2. Ratmir_Ryazan 15 January 2020 21: 31 New
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            Yes, the Package-NK and its range of enemy boats is not large, only 20 km, but this is first of all a complex of protection against enemy torpedoes.

            More often than not, a submarine will be the first to attack a surface ship, since it will detect it earlier and if it does not have protection from torpedoes, then such a ship is doomed.

            And an enemy boat can be found and destroyed by helicopter after repelling the attack.

            Carapace-M is relevant only for MRK or IPC, but not for corvette.

            As for the price, miracles do not happen, a ship can be made cheaper only by reducing its capabilities.
            1. bayard 15 January 2020 21: 48 New
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              Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
              Yes, the Package-NK and its range of enemy boats is not large, only 20 km, but this is first of all a complex of protection against enemy torpedoes.

              It is also called the "last hope", for a duel with a submarine, it is not at all suitable, only if you can reduce the distance.
              And for a helicopter, weather and excitement will not always be favorable. A ship of such a small displacement has serious limitations in its use ... Unlike an enemy submarine.
              Therefore, it is necessary and even necessary to have missile torpedoes in the armament. This is our chip and our advantage, in case of timely detection of the enemy. Even after his attack from a "safe" (from the "Package-NK") distance. Not everyone has such a means of defeating a remote submarine, and it’s a sin not to use this advantage.
              And the "Shell-M" for the near zone is quite sufficient - with its maximum range of 40 km. , in BMZ it will be covered by aviation. And the Poliment-Redoubt for such a small ship is redundant, too expensive, complicated, takes up a lot of space and cannot reach its full potential on a ship of such limited displacement.
              Corvettes PLO need to have a lot. In all fleets. This is a mass ship, a workhorse of the near zone. With Polyment-Redoubt, their mass cannot be ensured either in price or in production capabilities. And this greatly complicates the operation.
              We have already encountered this and are not happy about it.
              Therefore, topic 20385 is closed.
              We need an inexpensive mass ship PLO BMZ.
              1. Ratmir_Ryazan 16 January 2020 09: 47 New
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                Therefore, topic 20385 is closed.
                We need an inexpensive mass ship PLO BMZ.


                Theme 20385 is temporarily closed and the reason is in the engines and it needs to be eliminated, and the project should be renewed and finalized.

                The fact that someone promised that pr 11664 is much cheaper is not at all a fact that it will be so. RTO Karakurt cost the fleet $ 150 million, the corvette 20380 is $ 250 million and I don’t think that 11664 will be much cheaper.

                If pr. 20380/20385 is not happy with something, you need to refine it, and not throw it and grab onto a new project.

                Project 11664 has no defense against missiles or torpedoes, why such dishivism ?! What will it give? A lot of defenseless ships and what is the point? During the assault, they drove into Grozny a lot of equipment, without any protection from cumulative ammunition, and this turned out to be a huge loss. But they saved on dynamic protection and on the development of KAZ. Only here they paid with blood for this economy, but if the enemy attacked us more seriously, they would have lost everything both Moscow and the state !!!!

                Project 20380 needs to be finalized so that it can use the calibers of all modifications, including anti-submarine torpedoes.

                And to reduce the corvette's air defense to the level of Shell-M is a crime. The carapace is good only for UAVs only works, and to repel a missile attack it is not suitable, the Jews have already burned 3 pieces and have not lost a single fighter from this air defense system and will also have ships.

                A corvette should be a powerful and protected ship, its task is to go out at the signal of a network of hydroacoustic stations deployed near our bases in the near sea zone, to find an enemy boat or ship, to expel or destroy it. Another task is an escort.

                The weakly protected corvette, project 11664, the fleet does not need.

                The relevance and mass character of small anti-submarine ships in my opinion is already a thing of the past. Live them until the first missile attack.
                1. bayard 18 January 2020 03: 36 New
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                  Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                  And to reduce the corvette's air defense to the level of Shell-M is a crime. The carapace is good only for UAVs only works, but to repulse a missile attack it’s not good, Jews have already burned 3 pieces

                  The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.
                  And this is what Syria does "Shell-S" with a range of destruction of 20 km. and a detection range of 40 km.
                  I'm talking about "Shell-M" !!! With a range of up to 40 km. , three types of missiles with a range of 40, 20 and 10 km. accordingly. And with a radar detection range of 70 km.

                  And now compare its parameters with the “truncated Redoubt” and its short-range missiles.

                  And think carefully about what I said.
                  1. Ratmir_Ryazan 18 January 2020 11: 00 New
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                    The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.


                    Yes, it protects only when the TOP is actively helping him in this.

                    I'm talking about "Shell-M" !!! With a range of up to 40 km.


                    This is not about anything, since such a range allows enemy aircraft to deliver a massive strike with cruise missiles on such a ship and sink it with impunity.

                    And now compare its parameters with the “truncated Redoubt” and its short-range missiles.


                    What makes you think that Redoubt is truncated? Not only short-range missiles but also longer-range missiles - 9M96M and 9M96E - can be put in redoubt cells.

                    In general, Russia is already building a 20380/20385 corvette and I see no one reason not to abandon this project and grab onto another.

                    The 20380/20385 series of corvettes must be continued and brought to perfection, which is done in general - Two project 20380 ships under construction - the Strogiy and the Retivy - will be equipped with the unique Zaslon radar complex (RLC). It is capable of detecting surface, land, sea and air targets within a radius of 75 km.

                    And the Kh-35 missiles must be changed to Caliber, so that the enemy’s ship can also be hit by a submarine.

                    And throwing on projects will not do anything good.
                    1. bayard 18 January 2020 17: 12 New
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                      The downside was not from me.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                      The carapace in Syria protects (and very effectively) our bases (and Syrian targets) primarily from cruise missiles (!) Planning air bombs, rockets of various calibers and purposes (including improvised ones), UAVs and even (!) There were cases - from mortar min.


                      Yes, it protects only when the TOP is actively helping him in this.

                      You studied the material inattentively. The armor quite successfully copes with all of the above goals, but there were problems with the detection of some makeshift UAVs, which required changing some of the radar settings. And while these shortcomings were corrected, the Armors in Syria replaced the Torahs, whose radars saw such targets well.
                      But the “Tor” has a more expensive and larger missile, and it has a range of only 12 km. Therefore, after the reconfiguration, the service is again carried by the Pantsyri and they are doing very well.
                      And those Syrian “Pantsiri” (it is known about 2) that Israeli aviation managed to destroy, in one case - the ammunition was shot with the radar turned off and waiting for reloading, and in the second case, it was hit by a massive salvo of guided missiles when it was fired the canals were overloaded - he just did not manage to destroy all the salvo missiles, but part of them was shot down.
                      And it was the “Armor” with the Syrian calculations and fought off alone.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
                      I'm talking about "Shell-M" !!! With a range of up to 40 km.


                      This is not about anything, since such a range allows enemy aircraft to deliver a massive strike with cruise missiles on such a ship and sink it with impunity.

                      The range of air defense systems is 60 km. also does not guarantee a reflection of a massive raid, especially if the missiles are going at low altitude (and they will), and the detection range at Zaslon (75 km.) and Pantsyrya-M (70 km.) are almost identical. And enemy aviation is closer to 70 - 80 km to such a ship and will not fit, it will launch anti-ship missiles ahead of time.
                      Of course, the placement of missiles in UVP is more convenient and rational than the beam, but to have four canvases "Barrier", instead of one \ a maximum of two SSC for "Panzmrya-M" - a serious savings. And unification, for the "Pantsir-M" has already gone into service.
                      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

                      In general, Russia is already building a 20380/20385 corvette and I see no one reason not to abandon this project and grab onto another.

                      It doesn’t matter which platform, the main thing is that their lineup and set of weapons should correspond to the BZ.
                      And speed.
                      The 20380 has 28 knots of maximum stroke.
                      20385 has 27 knots.
                      This is not enough. On existing diesels, it is not possible to increase the speed. If more powerful engines appear in the near future (D-500, for example, will be finished), things should get better.
                      And again about the hangar.
                      Since in our latitudes (SF, Pacific Fleet), due to weather conditions, a helicopter cannot be used on board corvettes of such a displacement, it is irrational to have a hangar for permanent basing. It is wiser to equip a helipad with a movable hangar to save space. And on the site of the capital hangar to place weapons - the same UKKS.
                      If the issue is resolved with more powerful diesels, then nothing prevents the project 20380 from being upgraded. But Kaliningrad needs to be relieved of this order, now it is necessary to concentrate all its forces on 22350 \ 22350M, and let Amursky Plant and Zelenodolsk be engaged in the production of corvettes. Even if it is a properly (!) Modernized corvette 20380.
                      In the meantime, all the modernization resulted in more and more expensive, and less and less relevant projects.
                      1. 1Alexey 19 January 2020 09: 26 New
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                        Quote: bayard
                        But Kaliningrad needs to be rid of this order, they now need to concentrate all their forces on 22350 \ 22350M

                        In fact, these frigates are being produced in St. Petersburg at PAO Severnaya Verf Shipyard, and not in Kaliningrad.

                        And, of course, these frigates should be much higher priority than RTOs and corvettes.
              2. alexmach 18 January 2020 01: 09 New
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                And the Poliment-Redoubt for such a small ship is redundant, too expensive, complicated, takes up a lot of space and cannot reach its full potential on a ship of such limited displacement.

                But a redoubt can be made in a truncated version, only with short-range self-defense missiles and some kind of simple radar. He will take up less space and will be cheaper, and will have its advantages over the Shell.
                1. bayard 18 January 2020 03: 48 New
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                  Quote: alexmach
                  But a redoubt can be made in a truncated version, only with short-range self-defense missiles and some simple radar

                  So they tried. It turned out 20380 - with a radar from the "Shell-S" .... how good it turned out, ask the operators.
                  They tried to fix the matter with a more powerful and productive radar with aviation roots - the Barrier. It turned out ... 20385. How many torments are connected with this ... And not at all cheaper than "Polimenta".
                  The truth is slightly more compact.
                  But the price jumped to the level of almost "Gorshkov"!
                  And who needs SUCH happiness for SUCH money?
                  The question is rhetorical.

                  But the whole trouble is that while all these torments of creativity have been going on - to shove the inedible into 2000 tons ... A NEW marine air defense system has appeared on the horizon.
                  "Shell-M" with a range of detection of its radar targets such as the Kyrgyz Republic - 70 km and a range of their destruction - up to 40 km.
                  And also with two more types of missiles in the ammunition - range of 20 km and 10 km. accordingly.
                  If such an air defense system appeared at the time of laying the first 20380, no one would have thought of a “Redoubt”.
                  Now it is possible to bring this class of ships to their normal form, with a normal air defense system, and a normal price.
                  1. alexmach 18 January 2020 16: 21 New
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                    So they tried. It turned out 20380 - with a radar from the "Shell-S" .... how good it turned out, ask the operators

                    So, let's not confuse warm with soft. In 20380, there are still available full-fledged redoubt cells based on large missiles, at least of medium range. And as far as I understand, the main problems can be wrong, they have no problems with firing at the maximum range, with a near zone and a "small" 9M100 rocket. And as a plus, unification with other land and sea air defense systems.

                    a NEW marine air defense system appeared on the horizon.
                    "Shell-M" with a range of detection of its radar targets such as the Kyrgyz Republic - 70 km and a range of their destruction - up to 40 km.

                    First appeared? Not a single ship in the Navy with this complex yet.
                    Secondly, what kind of tests did this sea shell pass in the absence of carriers?
                    Thirdly, where does the information about range come from? Yes, 40 km is declared, but for the "ground" shell, the sea can differ greatly in its characteristics. In addition, it is generally not clear what its effectiveness is at ranges close to maximum. What kind of targets can he hit there, can missiles at these ranges still be vigorously maneuvering, is the radio command guidance system effective. Etc. There may be more questions than answers.

                    And also with two more types of missiles in the ammunition - range of 20 km and 10 km. respectively

                    And how do you imagine using at the same time three types of missiles on a beam PU shell? If before the heap, remember the requirement for fire performance? Missiles in the VPU do not have such problems, but the beam needs to either be recharged or several types of missiles should be kept on it, and if we shoot at long-range targets, then the nearest missiles are simply dead weight ....
                    1. bayard 18 January 2020 19: 33 New
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                      Quote: alexmach

                      And how do you imagine using at the same time three types of missiles on a beam PU shell? If before the heap, remember the requirement for fire performance? Missiles in the VPU do not have such problems, but the beam needs to either be recharged or several types of missiles should be kept on it, and if we shoot at long-range targets, then the nearest missiles are simply dead weight ....

                      In the same way as now on the “Shell-S” 2 types of missiles with a range of 20 and 10 km are simultaneously used. accordingly. The new land "Shell" is made on the basis of its marine version, and not vice versa, and has been tested / tested for a long time, at least for at least 4-5 years. Including on the experimental ship (I saw one).
                      And of course on guides at least 8 containers at the same time. Moreover, in one container simultaneously placed 4 melee missiles with a range of 10 km.
                      And all three types of missiles, of course, are on the launch pad at the same time.
                      And quick reload.
                      1. alexmach 18 January 2020 20: 13 New
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                        In the same way as now on the “Shell-S” 2 types of missiles with a range of 20 and 10 km are simultaneously used. respectively

                        Similarly, yes not exactly the same. Ground Shell can easily be used by a battery of 4-8 launchers, where there is where to combine different missiles, and on a ship where the installation is only one, what can you combine there?
                        And of course on guides at least 8 containers at the same time.

                        Well, for gas, offer an approximate set of 8 Kteiners with three types of missiles.
                        Moreover, in one container simultaneously placed 4 melee missiles with a range of 10 km.

                        Are you sure that the range of these "nails" is exactly 10 km? After all, there the acceleration block is very small.
                        Well, you shot long-range missiles, and you still have long-range targets, and melee missiles at the PU, what next? recharge?
                        And quick reload

                        Fast reload is how many minutes?

                        Maybe I'm certainly wrong, but I'm very skeptical about this sea shell. No, for small ships it is probably good, but not the fact that the best can be, but for corvettes, in my opinion, it’s not enough at all ... but this is only the opinion of the amateur.
                      2. bayard 18 January 2020 21: 41 New
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                        At the Pantsyrya-M launcher, there were 8 containers in trials, but nothing prevents them from placing 12 or even 16 pieces. - This is a ship, not a launcher on wheels.
                        And combine them like hosh.
                        Quote: alexmach
                        Fast reload is how many minutes?

                        As far as I remember, it is automatic and takes (should) last tens of seconds.
                        I will not say anything about nails, except that the maximum range is 10 km. And this means that they are effective at least up to 6 - 7 km. like the same wasp. A pair of such containers on the PU will be quite enough.
                      3. alexmach 18 January 2020 22: 07 New
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                        At the Pantsyrya-M launcher, there were 8 containers in trials, but nothing prevents them from placing 12 or even 16 pieces. - This is a ship, not a launcher on wheels.

                        Does the drum loading mechanism also interfere? Or did he sink into oblivion with Kashatan?
                        As far as I remember, it is automatic and takes (should) be tens of seconds in strength

                        Let's count:
                        1. deploy the PU to the standard position
                        2. Lift the rails vertically up
                        3. Roll up rakts on them from the cellar (that's just it takes 3s on rollers about Kashtan-M)
                        4. Points 1,2 to play back.
                        So I'm not sure what will invest in 10s.
                        And this is if the right rocket is in the cellar in the right place at the ready.
                        Next, imagine that you have three types of missiles, some you shot and others remained on the launcher, because you probably still need to roll them back before rolling out a new "pack".

                        And this is all on the condition that in general there is still this mechanical reloading on small ships, the rollers are from Kashtan-M from the first ranks.

                        ABOUT! found the same
                        https://youtu.be/5pkLOcAVIB8?t=312
                        Previously, it took about a dozen minutes. Now 8 missiles are being discharged for minute
                      4. bayard 18 January 2020 23: 30 New
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                        You understand, I spoke about the "Shell" primarily in relation to 11661, in the context of the changes that can make a good BMZ corvette out of it.
                        The same thing was said about the 20380 first versions, where the capabilities of “Furke” were not at all enough for the “Redoubt”, even the stripped-down one. There at first everything was bad.
                        The creation and integration of the Barrier was also difficult, and the possibilities nevertheless ... 75 km. discoveries speak of themselves.
                        Yes, at that price!
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?
                        With obviously lower characteristics than the frigate?
                        Isn’t it easier to share aspirations and build an easy PLO corvette, with armament and equipment optimized specifically for these tasks, and set the air defense to moderate, since aviation will cover it in the BMZ, and to build a frigate (!) Air defense for more serious tasks, with more advanced air defense better seaworthiness, autonomy, the ability to work as a helicopter and a large wearable ammunition?
                        Now we don’t have enough money to repair the ships that are in service, the construction of the much-needed new ones is being delayed due to a lack of funds ... And at the same time, the construction of BMZ ships at such high prices and equally unbalanced in armament and not optimized for the implementation of the BASIC .
                        After all, the 20380 and 20385 series, among other things, and speeds are clearly insufficient for effective PLO.
                        If you use more powerful engines on them, optimize the composition of the armament for the main BZ (PL) ... and entrust their construction to those shipyards that are not engaged in the construction of ships of the main classes ... something can happen.
                      5. alexmach 19 January 2020 00: 15 New
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                        The armor I spoke primarily in relation to 11661

                        No, Broadsword on the Shell is of course a rational change.
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?

                        I’m not at all sure of the correctness of this statement, as far as I understand, we are talking about prices of very different years. Moreover, it is not logical to compare with non-existent frigate PLO.
                        But in general, it is hard to disagree with the idea that a mass PLO ship should be as cheap as possible.
                        If you apply more powerful engines to them

                        Yes, there is another big pain.
                      6. bayard 19 January 2020 02: 13 New
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                        Quote: alexmach
                        Why build a corvette at the price of a frigate?

                        I’m not at all sure of the correctness of this statement, as far as I understand, we are talking about prices of very different years. Moreover, it is not logical to compare with non-existent frigate PLO.

                        Comparisons began when frigates for the Black Sea Fleet of the 11356 series surrendered and 20385 corvettes were in completion. Corvettes were already then significantly more expensive than 11356 and were approaching 22350. Then the ruble exchange rate ... and prices began their rapid drift. But the price ratios of 20385 and 22350 were already visible then ... and they are not in favor of 20385.
                        Discussions about the budget corvette and frigate PLO have been going on in the VO forums for more than a year ... with my participation. Occasionally before ...
                        Various configurations were proposed, GEMs, methods of combat use ... So, an opinion has already been formed on what is expedient and necessary. request hi
            2. alexmach 18 January 2020 20: 25 New
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              Including on the test ship (I saw one)

              Did you see the experimental ship with the Carapace?
            3. bayard 18 January 2020 23: 36 New
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              Quote: alexmach
              Did you see the experimental ship with the Carapace?

              Not only . At least one missile defense system of the Karakurt type is already armed with the Pantsir-M air defense system and is being actively tested.
              And I saw the "Shell-M" on the test ship ... four years ago. My classmate is engaged in marine air defense systems from a specialized design bureau, dangles in all fleets.
  • Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 23 New
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    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    There is a project corvette 20380
    project - "castrate" (in the field of PLO - its main task !!) for crazy money ?! ...
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    / 20385
    a little better, but ... much more expensive ?!
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    We need a new IPC 1124 Albatross.
    here to replace it, as well as the ability to combine main functions of the IPC, with added (additional capabilities of RTOs, i.e. the use of the same "Gauges from UKKS" "far land" as the Caspian "Buyans" at one time), approximately and finally needed
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ave 11664
    . but the fact that -
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    only with weak air defense.
    then just air defense capabilities for OVR corvette in BMZ, more secondary (to save on construction and mass). Primarily just opportunities PLO !!!
  • lucul 14 January 2020 18: 17 New
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    Too big a helicopter for this ship, one hangar is worth it.
    Maybe it makes sense for Kamovtsy to work out a smaller version of a helicopter for such small ships (I hope they will be massive)?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 45 New
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      The world's largest electronics require volumes. Buying ready-made European search engines, for example, for petty Dafin - will not work out already. Well, that's all. Finished the theme of light helicopter PLO. For existing and promising systems will not fit in either the Ka-226 or Ansat.

      It’s already I’m missing the fact that the Kamovtsi disrupted all conceivable and unimaginable Ka-226 terms for the FSB. Where is the minimum alteration. A total of 2 helicopters transferred, 2 possibly transferred to 12 already built Rubin-type watchdogs, which were designed after the helicopter (the basic requirement is the Ka-226 base).
  • businessv 14 January 2020 18: 26 New
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    Project 11664 has certain chances to get to the construction, but do not show excessive optimism and overestimate its prospects.
    I would like to hear the competent opinion of members of the forum on this project. Colleagues, please write prospects, advantages and disadvantages, there are many people far from the fleet. smile
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 19: 20 New
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      I don’t know what kind of bright head this project was developing, but the idea of ​​placing an integrated mast with all radar facilities behind the chimney is five lol laughing .
      1. Vladimir_2U 15 January 2020 04: 37 New
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        In, doesn’t the antenna exhaust?
        1. Dante Alighieri 15 January 2020 19: 41 New
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          Well, Dering is somehow functioning, although his AFAR is also behind the chimney. And nothing. Among some, it’s even called as the best destroyer-air defense today (although it may be that the particles of ash are not so critical for AFAR, I don’t know).
          1. Vladimir_2U 16 January 2020 03: 30 New
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            Not only is this antenna not the only one on Daring, but the main complex in front of the pipe, so it also rotates, accelerates so to speak!)) Plus, between the radar antenna and the pipe is another integrated mast, with, as I understand it, communication antennas, but for them, smoke is definitely not critical.
  • Demagogue 14 January 2020 18: 37 New
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    Another masterpiece. And not a corvette, and not a frigate, but an unknown animal. There is nothing to do in the near zone without a towed out gas and a package. And for the far zone, zero air defense. And you go like Gorshkov. The frigate must have a normal displacement of 3 tons so that the helicopter can be deployed. 500 nothing at all. And for the corvette bust.
    1. bars1 14 January 2020 19: 09 New
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      And you can determine what weapons and equipment he has, and which not, from these muddy pics?
    2. Vadmir 14 January 2020 19: 59 New
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      There is nothing to do in the near zone without a towed out gas and a package.
      I agree, but the article does not write about the absence of a towed GAS - there is no information on the electronic weapons of this ship. And the Package can and should be put in place of a part of Caliber - 16 pieces for a corvette of such a displacement, this is too much.
      so that the helicopter can be used. 2 nothing at all. And for the corvette bust.
      A helicopter for PLO corvette is needed.
      1. bayard 15 January 2020 05: 27 New
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        Quote: Vadmir
        And the Package can and should be put in place of a part of Caliber - 16 pieces for a corvette of such a displacement, this is too much.

        "Package-NK" is most likely provided there. And for this, there is no need at all to reduce the ammunition of the main caliber. The towed GAS most likely should also be - without it, the PLO corvette is insolvent.
        But air defense needs to be strengthened. And this is easy to accomplish with the help of the "Shell-M", which will be quite (!) Enough for a ship of this class.
        If something necessary is not enough, and there is already no space, you can optimize the helicopter hangar. Leave the helipad and install a movable hangar, and use the vacated space for extra. weapons - the same "Package-NK", if it is not provided for in the basic configuration.
        But the ship is good - the hull and power plants from the Cheetah are a great choice. High-speed, and this is important for anti-submarine. 16 missiles in the UKKS, of which 8 can be missile-torpedo submarines, and the remaining 8 are the Caliber, Onyx, Zircon in any combination.
        For the NEAR zone, this is a perfectly balanced ship.
        But under the condition of strengthening air defense with the help of "Shell-M".
        And for the price it will be cheaper than 20380. While being much more powerful in PLO and shock capabilities.
    3. Vladimir1155 14 January 2020 23: 16 New
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      I agree nedofregat, without meaning. In general, corvettes are not needed. Or a universal frigate of 3500-4500 tons, or even highly specialized small ones of not more than 800 tons of MPK MRK MKPVO minesweepers .... and then there are not many of them. The basis of modern warfare at sea is coastal aviation and submarines.
      1. bayard 15 January 2020 05: 38 New
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        Frigates are needed for the DMZ and to ensure the PLO in the areas of combat deployment of SSBNs. In the near zone, lighter and cheaper ships are needed to provide near-field missile defense, send out guard functions and escort transports and landing ships.
        "Cheetah" - a good base, large ammunition of the Kyrgyz Republic makes it possible to have both missile-torpedo submarines and strike missiles in any combination at the same time. Replacing the "Palm" on the "Shell" optimizes air defense.
        And the price.
        In addition, Zelenodolsk just always specialized in ships of this class. He will succeed.
        1. saylor1971 15 January 2020 19: 28 New
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          Under this criterion, the concept of the "small frigate" —the Chinese Navy type 056A corvette — is more suited.
          056А
          Displacement full 1500, length 89 m.
          Armament:
          Chinese version of the AK-176;
          SAM analogue of more complex RIM-116:
          RCC - 2x2 their analogue of Exoset. It’s quite a normal RCC at 180km.
          2x30mm stabilized guns, with a multi-mode optical guidance system, with the possibility of remote firing (from a combat post outside the gun).
          anti-submarine component contains:
          - station
          - BUGAS
          - anti-submarine helicopter, which can use a corvette for temporary base or jumping point. There is a supply of fuel for helicopter.
          - 2x3 TA for Yu-7 torpedoes which are a composition of the reverse engineering of new Italian torpedoes (which they purchased) and some solutions of the American Mark 46 / 54.
          - light radar Type 364.
          - Reliable and high-life Pielstick 16PA6STC engines, licensed.

          The result is a cheap OVR corvette that can produce virtually any CVD quickly, cheaply and efficiently. It immediately closes the functions of the Albatrosses + MRK 1234/1241 + patrol ship of the near zone. Due to its rather good seaworthiness in the composition of the compound (KUG), it will be able to strengthen the PLO component of the compound.
      2. Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 36 New
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        Corvettes are needed, but designed according to the cost criterion. There should be a lot of corvettes combining MRK + IPC for BMO. It all comes down to search engine performance. One frigate will not be able to displace the enemy nuclear submarines from the required area (the nuclear submarines will simply evade one ship), and 3-4 corvettes working at the same time can do it (the search front is wider and there are more tactical techniques).
        1. Vladimir1155 15 January 2020 16: 19 New
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          But why combine in one small ship plo and air defense? it’s also inconvenient to double the displacement and there will be no inability to disperse and cross the GDP, and the requirements for basing places increase and the cost doubles of course, visibility too .... corvettes are unnecessary for Russia, there will be no seaworthiness for the oceans, a frigate is needed at least. and for the seas they are unreasonably large, Let some be engaged in one thing PLO, and others in another RTO, frigate for DMZ. and those and others do not need a lot.
    4. Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 34 New
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      Quote: Demagogue
      Without towed gus
      Sorry, but what does this mean? ...
      Quote: Demagogue
      and she’s nothing to do with a packet in a plo in the near zone.
      ?! Are you sure that Package-NK is for effective PLO ?! I always suspected that the maximum of its effectiveness is anti-torpedo protection! No more.
      Quote: Demagogue
      ... And it’s worth it like Gorshkov ...
      Why would it ?!
  • Luty 14 January 2020 18: 38 New
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    It would be better to continue the construction of 20385. And so are the next projects and the struggle for financing. And at the exit of "Stealth Miracle" 20386 which is not known when they will be built.
    1. Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 14 New
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      It is not yet known what will come out of 20386 of the project, maybe it will succeed, but it is not worth stopping the construction of corvettes, in its expectation, ships of this class are needed. you are right, you can continue the construction of 20385, you can even build 20380.
      And new projects are also needed, we have no replacement for the IPC. We need a small PLO corvette, another question is what kind of ship it will be, maybe an increased Karakurt PLO, or maybe something based on project 11661.
    2. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 20: 45 New
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      No one will build 20385 until there is a corresponding VI of GEM for him. IMHO, if someday the D500 is brought to an acceptable level in terms of imported components, they will make a gearbox, RM and all the rest of them as in the DDA-12000, then maybe they will again take up the 20380 series (5). Only it will not be very soon, and almost a different ship.
      1. Luty 14 January 2020 20: 56 New
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        Unfortunately, they won’t take it and it’s not about diesels. Everything is fine there and not inferior to 20380
        1. D16
          D16 14 January 2020 20: 59 New
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          Is everything normal in 20380? laughing
          1. bayard 15 January 2020 05: 46 New
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            At 20380 everything is ABNORMAL. From the composition of weapons to speed characteristics and autonomy.
            And the price.
            Also not normal.
            The proposed corvette is much more consistent with the tasks of PLO in the near zone, the guard and the escort. But only under the condition of replacing the "Palm" on the "Shell-M". In this case, the new corvette will surpass its predecessors in efficiency at times.
            The Cheetah is an excellent base for the BMZ ship.
            1. D16
              D16 15 January 2020 08: 05 New
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              With speed characteristics it’s clear, I wrote about this. From UKKS to 20380 too. Although torpedoes and a helicopter can take. But what does 20385 not suit you? On it, in terms of weapon composition, everything is fine. There is a zonal air defense system, the most effective gas systems at the moment, a range of 4000 miles. Where is more for a corvette? Is there a means of self-defense against submarines, 6 UKKS corvette is not enough? wassat Do you think the submarines will be trampled with jambs, or will the opponent’s ACS jump out from around the corner? There are much more chances to meet the enemy’s aircraft and TSA. If, with the appropriate GEM, it is increased to 2,5 kT, then it will make the current 22350.
              What do we have in this "Cheetah +" except for 16 UKKS? GEM is not for him. Means of self-defense against torpedoes, as well as the zonal air defense complex, are also absent. A small surname GAS, possibly OGAS, but it can only work in drift. In general, God forbid that this beefy Albatross would remain only in the layout.
              1. bayard 15 January 2020 09: 09 New
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                Quote: D16
                But what does 20385 not suit you?

                At a cost, too tight a lineup, too expensive and complicated for a ship of such a displacement of air defense systems. His price jumped almost to the level of 22350.
                Quote: D16
                the most effective GAS at the moment,

                They can be installed on the proposed corvette, and as part of this ship will be more harmonious.
                Quote: D16
                There is a zonal air defense system,

                A ship of such a class (PLO corvette) is redundant - the "Shell-M" will be enough.
                Quote: D16
                There are means of self-defense from submarines

                "Package-NK" and on this corvette is not difficult to install. Yes, it seems to me that he should be there.
                You understand, 20385 will not be built anymore.
                All . Have played enough. Price, complexity, lineup density.
                We need another - cheap (relatively), sharpened on PLO and with moderate air defense. “Palm” is certainly too much, but “Pantsyr-M” will fix the matter.
                Quote: D16
                .If with the corresponding GEM it is increased to 2,5 kT, then the current 22350 will be obtained from it

                Its VI and so on is 2500 tons, and it really almost equaled the price of 22350. Therefore, they limited themselves to the construction of 2 copies. Now everyone is talking about the need for an inexpensive PLO corvette. And now there is Pantsyr-M, which was not there before. Its potential for the PLO corvette in BMZ is quite enough. In BMZ, it will also be covered by basic aviation.
                Quote: D16
                What do we have in this "Cheetah +" except for 16 UKKS?

                Firstly, excellent speed, rational contours and in the case of some re-arrangement ...
                Just imagine on this case, as an option:
                - instead of "Palms" put "Broadsword";
                - on the site of the Pantsyr-M and Package-NK hangars on the sides in ports;
                - for a helicopter a movable hangar, because its basing will not be permanent, but temporary - in good weather and "spend the night";
                - We take HAK from 20385 with a towed HAS - it will fit, because the displacement of both is 2500 tons, and we saved volumes on air defense systems and hangars;
                - 16 places in the UKKS allow you to carry ammunition from all the missiles needed in battle at the same time. Let's say 8 PLUR and 8 drums in any combination, depending on the KB.

                And what do we get as a result?
                The ideal PLO corvette, guard and escort in one bottle.
                Moreover, it surpasses 20380 and 20385 in speed and armament, and in price ... in any case, it will not be higher than 20380. Rather, it will be cheaper, because we saved on the Poliment Redut.
                It is precisely such a ship that the fleet needs, and as soon as possible and in commercial quantities.
                In addition, the fact that Zelenodolsk will be involved in this project (this is precisely his profile) will allow Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg to be unloaded for projects of the highest priority for them - DMZ and OZ ships - 22350 and 22350M. They also need to be built in commodity quantities.
                The fact that in Kaliningrad they pulled out the already formed hull of 20385 from the boathouse, freeing up space for laying the next 22350+ this year, suggests that it will be so - Kaliningrad and Peter will build DMZ and OZ ships, and Zelenodolsk and Zaliv - corvettes, RTOs and ... UDC.
                But Amursky will continue the series 20380 ... he is barely in tone.

                In a word, what was shown in the layout is just a blank. But accepting the proposed changes for this hull, this will be the type of BMZ ship the fleet had been dreaming of for so long.
                1. D16
                  D16 15 January 2020 10: 19 New
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                  What was shown in the layout is nothing more than a well-fed Albatross, in which the air defense weapons were less rationally placed to accommodate the helicopter. What you offer as part of the "finishing" of the layout will completely pull you to create a completely new project from scratch with the corresponding costs of time and money. This is a complete alteration of the building for GAS Zarya 2 in the nasal bulb, BUGAS, which was not present at Zelenodolsk projects, Package that still needs to be placed somewhere with your GAS. I repeat that the placement of the optocoupler mast behind the chimney is, to say the least, irrational. Well, the most interesting moment. What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics? And if with D 500 the light at the end of the tunnel is still visible, then with GT for the corvettes the darkness is impenetrable. And the fact that the second 20385 was postponed means that the fleet did not work with the current DDA-12000 and decided to wait for the D500. Tomorrow, anyway, no one is going to arrange a third world war.
                  1. bayard 15 January 2020 11: 17 New
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                    Quote: D16
                    What you offer as part of the "finishing" of the layout will completely pull you to create a completely new project from scratch with the corresponding costs of time and money.

                    Yes, it seems to me that there is no project in the full sense of the word yet. It was rather a sketchy sketch on the topic “what if you like it” to load capacities of both Zelenodolsk and the new Gulf for them. And the model was blindly whipped up at the Cheetah base. After all, the article also says that if you like it and there will be financing, then the project will be quickly prepared and ready to build. So at this stage, you can make any reasonable changes without affecting the timing and budget.
                    Quote: D16
                    I repeat that the placement of the optocoupler mast behind the chimney is, to say the least, irrational.

                    I absolutely share your opinion and I think that the very fact of such a placement speaks only of an approximate modeling of this project. On a blunder.
                    Quote: D16
                    Well, the most interesting moment. What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics?

                    It’s also interesting for me, and I wrote about this in my first post on this article (at the beginning of the comments), but if it is the same as the Cheetah - about two diesel engines and one afterburner turbine, then the driving characteristics will be very good .. . especially compared with the corvettes of the last cadence. So, if the turbine will be M-90FR (in order to unify the fleet and facilitate the tasks of the industry) and a couple of new diesel engines, then the only question is the gearbox. There is time for work on the GEM - because the project (whether it is selected and ordered) will take time, bookmarks will not begin next year.
                    Quote: D16
                    Tomorrow, anyway, no one is going to arrange a third world war.

                    To start \ meet the war tomorrow, the fleet must be built the day before yesterday. hi
                    1. D16
                      D16 15 January 2020 13: 25 New
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                      What are we breaking spears about then? If this is not a project, but an extremely crooked presentation of the concept, then I don’t see any reason to get involved with this plant. If they can’t offer anything to interest the client at the layout level, then the ship will not be made even more so. In general, this layout is a set of old, already applied solutions and it is very doubtful that they will be able to move away from them. After all, a bunch of suppliers work with the plant in cooperation, who make the Palm, and not the Shell, do not do the Package, and much more. So let them do RTOs, watchdogs MCHPV, export Cheetahs. In general, what they know how to do well. And if they suddenly become unemployed, they can thank their design bureau, which does not catch mice. smile
                      1. Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 43 New
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                        They (ZPKB) proposed a revolutionary line of ATS: corvette Rusich-1500, frigate Rusich-2400. And they almost won the contest for the promising OVR / BMZ corvette. But unexpectedly, “Vitya died,” the OVR ships were declared unnecessary, and in fact the loser in the Almaz TsMKB competition pushed the DMZ 20386 corvette.
                      2. D16
                        D16 15 January 2020 19: 44 New
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                        To this I see a number of understandable reasons. The first is global. We do not want to win the third world. We want to prevent it. No, even the most advanced OVR corvette will not help one iota in this. But the full-scale modernization of the Strategic Missile Forces is very yes smile . So the admirals need a large and beautiful “Varyag” to demonstrate the flag in Syria - Libya. I'm not talking about the technical risks associated with CODOG power plants, which are practically nonexistent for Zelenodol steamships.
                    2. bayard 15 January 2020 17: 17 New
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                      Quote: D16
                      What are we breaking spears about then? If this is not a project

                      This is a project that Zelenodoltsy proposed, which means that they are ready and able to create a warship on the Cheetah platform - in its hull and with its GEM, they proposed a lineup with a fixed-base helicopter and a UKKS for 16 missiles ... but with a strong limited air defense. To agree with this, or to offer your own set of weapons and changes is up to the customer. I proposed these changes.
                      After all, a warship is primarily a platform (hull and power plant), on which, depending on the needs and within the framework of the possible, one or another set of weapons (shock, defensive, electronic and radio-technical, anti-submarine, depending on the needs of the customer, and It should be formulated in the terms of reference from him. In general, it is more reasonable to make a whole family of ships on one successful base - it’s cheaper and faster for the customer and easier for the manufacturer. So it was with project 1124, 1135 - guard and anti-submarine ki on one basis.
                      The Cheetah is a good platform for the PLO corvette and the guard, a high-speed ship with good contours and a suitable displacement. A set of weapons should be formulated by the customer.
                      The fact that this platform is offered suggests that they are ready to do this, and the Cheetah platform is obviously better than the 20380 platform. In the near zone, the S-350 is redundant for a ship of this class, it is enough for him to have a "Shell-M". Its displacement and internal volumes make it possible to place a hull similar to what stands at 20385 - since it will not be built anymore (20385), then suppliers of everything needed by cooperation can safely switch to supplying another interested customer (Zelenodolsk). And I do not see any problems in this.
                      Have to redo the project?
                      He will have to redo it anyway, if they want to get a good (very good) order, then they are a design bureau, not a peddler from the fair. They won an order for the construction of two UDCs, so really what they only specialized in before that, they won’t master it? Will certainly master.
                      Therefore, it is possible and necessary to argue on the case - on re-arranging and changing the composition of armaments, in order to give the desired ship the combat capabilities necessary to fulfill its BZ.
                      I made my proposals and justified.
                    3. D16
                      D16 15 January 2020 19: 17 New
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                      The fact that this platform is offered suggests that they are ready to do this, and the Cheetah platform is obviously better than the 20380 platform.

                      Well, let's calculate whose platform is better. The power ratio of 11661 is 15,85 hp / t. The power ratio of 22380 is 10,81 hp / t. The difference is one and a half times. And do not forget that the specific fuel consumption of full-speed turbines 11661 is also one and a half times higher than that of D49. And all this for the sake of advantages in one knot of maximum speed wassat . At the same time, Cheetah runs its 4000 miles on the economic course of 10 knots, and 20380 for 14. So which case is better? laughing
                    4. bayard 15 January 2020 21: 05 New
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                      You are so boldly talking about the GEM of the proposed ship, not paying attention to the difference between it and the base 11661, but 1710 tons and 2500 normal VIs are not the same thing. In addition, there are no M-90 turbines or a diesel used on the Cheetahs. But there is a M-90FR \ FRU turbine with a capacity of 27 l / s, M-500FRU - 70 - 10 l / s (there is no exact information yet), a diesel with a capacity of 000 l / s and possibly 12 l / s is on the way . As well as a number of other dv. installations less suitable for this project. What has been decided to put on the proposed project is not yet clear, but the GEM will certainly not be able to be the same as before.
                      I think the options are possible:
                      - two diesel engines (2 x 6000 l \ s) and one afterburner turbine;
                      - one diesel engine (10 or 000 l / s) and one afterburner turbine.
                      - one marching (M-70FRU) and one afterburner turbine.
                      What designers have in mind, one can only guess, but most likely there will be something like the first option.
                      There is another option - diesel pairs 6000 + 10 000 \ 12 000 l \ s. with a total power on shafts of 32 - 000 l / s. And very different speeds.
                      In any case, Kaliningrad and Peter should be freed from the order for corvettes (which is apparently being done) and Zelenodolsk should be loaded with this topic, which is just for him in profile.
                      So you laugh in vain - that GEM, which you thought - does not exist. And those that are possible will give a cruising speed not lower than that of 20380.
                      And in general, I’m talking about layout solutions and the composition of weapons in a two-body building. At this manufacturer. Zelenodoltsy are quite capable of building buildings at home and driving them to completion in the Gulf (which we have already demonstrated), organize the construction of a large series and relieve Kaliningrad and Peter for more serious and priority orders.
                      I'm talking about the ship, how it can, and therefore MUST be. Based on the proposed one, you can create a ship that meets ALL the requirements for a PLO corvette, a guard and an escort. If there are suggestions / objections to the case, I’m ready to debate, but 20380 is a departed nature, an unsuccessful ship that does not meet the requirements. They will no longer be built.
                      In the best case, they will complete the mortgaged buildings.
                    5. D16
                      D16 15 January 2020 23: 08 New
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                      You wrote that the Cheetah platform is better than 20380. I do not know any other Cheetah except 11661. And you have clearly shown that the 11661 building is nothing more than a power victory over hydrodynamics laughing . Unlike the 20380 with its much more economical, quiet and resource-based power plant. Speak 2500 tons? Let's estimate your options:
                      - two diesel engines (2 x 6000 l \ s) and one afterburner turbine;

                      There are two options:
                      1. Analogue 1124. Three-shaft SU with a turbine operating on a middle propeller. Good full speed, but there is a problem. In any economic mode, there will be a lot of resistance due to a broken middle propeller.
                      2. SODAG. That is, you will have to do the Cheetah SU opposite. At the same time, through a cunning inter-gear transmission, the turbine will transmit its 27000 hp. on both valolines at the same time. We did not have this, no, and most likely will not.
                      - one diesel engine (10 or 000 l / s) and one afterburner turbine.

                      Hello single-shaft SU. Also CODAG. Half of the EU Gorshkov. Not take off. A single-shaft EC in the Navy will never drive, and there are no such diesel engines. 16D500-8000 HP
                      - one marching (M-70FRU) and one afterburner turbine.

                      COGAG. The most confused option. Analogue M7K pr. 1135. Judging by the sale of the second three admirals to Indians, no one hopes for its appearance. It doesn’t roll because of the naval requirements for survivability and hemorrhoids with a low speed. GTU does not like him very much. At 1135, one marching turbine could be used on both valolines, but this is not our case.
                      There is another option - diesel pairs 6000 + 10 000 \ 12 000 l \ s. with a total power on shafts of 32 - 000 l / s. And very different speeds.

                      CODAD. There is a DDA-12000. This is 24000 hp. Even if they finish the D-500, it will be 32000 hp, which will be nothing for a well-fed Cheetah. So I see only one option. Finish the D-500 and upgrade the 20380s. To build this steamboat in Zelenodolsk in cooperation with the Gulf and the NSSA, and not to breed fatty gas turbine cats. smile
                    6. bayard 16 January 2020 01: 04 New
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                      Quote: D16
                      So I see only one option. Finish the D-500 and upgrade the 20380s.

                      I'm all for it . Whose hull of one displacement should be taken is not a fundamental issue, content is important. If in case 20380 it is possible to implement what I have listed for 11661 (which is quite possible), then this will be only useful. But it should be exactly the PLO corvette, without overload on air defense (which is enough for the Pantsir-M), with missile torpedoes in the UKKS, the best possible SAC with the mandatory towed GAS, Package-NK and a movable hangar for a helicopter with to save space.
                      Well, the GEM in diesel vapors. 32 l / s for a hull with a displacement of 000 - 2000 tons will give a speed of up to 2500 - 29 knots (the same Chinese frigate with a power plant has the same power, a speed of 30 knots at 28 - 3500 tons of explosives).
                      The main thing is price and manufacturability to ensure the construction of a large series.
                      But you understand that after such a modernization, it will be a completely different ship.
                      But more successful.
                    7. D16
                      D16 16 January 2020 10: 31 New
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                      We decided on the case. Already good. Let's estimate what it is for. smile . Kok is known, the best submarine hunter is DEPL. This is logical. They are quieter, can lie on the ground, they do not care about the weather. Armed with full torpedoes and missile torpedoes. That is, the current stamping of Varshavyanka is not for hunting convoys of the enemy, but for the protection of its bases and deployment areas. This is evidenced by the fact that with the creation of their anaerobic plant no one really bothers. Autonomy is not critical near its bases. Not so long ago, they began to mass-build a new generation of diesel-electric submarines even more secretive and effective. Before them, NK is like up to China. But as World War II showed, the most terrible enemy of dizeluhi is the plane. And here the presence on the corvette of the zonal air defense complex plays with new colors. And such ships will be needed not so much. It turns out that the main function of BMZ corvettes is to quickly cover their diesel-electric submarines from naval aviation and enemy ships, and to co-ordinate submarine actions. You can also highlight the function of low-frequency backlight pulses.
                      Everything must be fine in the ship to accompany the convoy. Including the IJIS-shaped air defense complex. OGAS for escort is practically useless. It should be noted that the life of diesel-electric submarines can be greatly facilitated by the development of a specialized submarine ship with crewless boats, each of which can use the OGAS or low-frequency pulse generator in drift. This will greatly increase the saturation of the GAS area. Thus, we come to the paradoxical conclusion that admirals are not so unapproachable with a complete set of 20385.
                    8. bayard 16 January 2020 15: 35 New
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                      Quote: D16
                      And here the presence on the corvette of the zonal air defense complex plays with new colors. And such ships will be needed not so much. It turns out that the main function of BMZ corvettes is to quickly cover their diesel-electric submarines from naval aviation and enemy ships, and to co-ordinate submarine actions

                      And again about Polement Redoubt. A good complex, but it’s only integrating into the corvette with great difficulty - the case is small, you have to squeeze to the detriment of other weapons systems. Again, about seaworthiness - in the wake of his (corvette), he had not only problems with the use of a helicopter, but also a missile launcher, and, therefore, an air defense system + limited ammunition. Curse of small VI. request
                      But on the frigate, it integrates just fine. So maybe, since we need such BMZ ships to work in coordination with diesel-electric submarines, we don’t need so many to build them in the frigate dimension? In the VI 3500 - 4000 tons, so that they keep the wave, and use the helicopter, and autonomy-habitability? After all, everything (!) That you are talking about in the 2000 - 2500 t building cannot be accommodated. Or fit in with damage, as in 20385. And very expensive. If you pay dearly, can it still be smart? For a ship with normal VI?

                      But DEPL has one drawback - the reaction rate.
                      Suppose the sensors of acoustic fields give a signal about the appearance of enemy submarines outside the coverage area of ​​the armament on duty of diesel-electric submarines. Its low underwater speed will not allow it to quickly be in the right place ... and the weather is non-flying ... Therefore, it is impossible to do without BM - working dogs BMZ.
                      I see a solution to the BMP PLO problem only in a comprehensive way:
                      - frigates PLO with advanced air defense on board;
                      - working dogs - PLO corvettes (with developed means of PLO and air defense restrictions - for the sake of fit in the VI 1500 - 2000 tons);
                      - aircraft PLO;
                      - DEPL to ensure PLO bases and pouring zones;
                      - developed system of bottom fields.
                      And attempts to shove 2000 tons of stuff into the hull will not end in good. This and 20385 showed.
                    9. D16
                      D16 16 January 2020 18: 47 New
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                      This and 20385 showed

                      He showed nothing but insufficient GEM. The tests are not over yet.
                      And again about Polement Redoubt. A good complex, but it’s only integrating into the corvette with great difficulty - the case is small, you have to squeeze to the detriment of other weapons systems.

                      Polement-Redoubt does not integrate into corvettes at all. And Barrier-Redoubt is quite normal. At 20380-5, the limit on the use of weapons is 5 points. This is not a flying weather, Poseidon, of course, doesn’t care for 10 km, until he can only find what the hell in such weather. And from the coastal S-400 it will easily collapse.
                      But DEPL has one drawback - the reaction rate.

                      The diesel-electric submarine in service has a missile launcher with a range of up to 50 km., There is a corvette with the same missiles, covering the submarine, there is also an anti-submarine aircraft, which in the process of rapprochement will not make noise all over the ocean. I think that with the proper organization of the search, everything will work out.
                      don't you need so much, build them in the dimension of a frigate? In the VI 3500 - 4000 tons.

                      Taki build. Project 20386. And the Gorshkov-Supergorshkov is for the ocean.
                      - working dogs - PLO corvettes (with developed means of PLO and air defense restrictions - for the sake of fit in the VI 1500 - 2000 tons)

                      One submarine on duty, as was officially announced today on the basis of civilians, and not only Tu-204-214, already built and standing at the fence, will be able to cover an incommensurably large water area and will work quieter and more efficiently. Here you have the flying dog. laughing
                      + limited ammunition. Curse of small VI.

                      He is a BMZ ship, he does not need to raider in isolation from bases. Amers have not so many Poseidons. Dozens do not trample. And brush off the Harpoons, which he drags, too, is enough.smile
                    10. bayard 17 January 2020 02: 02 New
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                      Quote: D16
                      He showed nothing but insufficient GEM.

                      Is it just a GEM? And how does the Barrier work there? A BIUS? No habitability complaints, due to such a tight lineup? How fully are the possibilities of “Redoubt” paired with the “Barrier” revealed? Do you miss Pomenta?
                      A few months before the decision was made to integrate the Barrier on the corvette, instead of the unbearable Polymenta, I suggested trying the Barrier for these purposes, purely empirically in ordinary conversation. The idea may have flown in the air, but already 10 years have passed ... perhaps they have brought it ... but at what price and at what price? And how much did Poliment’s characteristics shrink?
                      Any issue price should be reasonable and justified. If the cost of the hull for a finished ship is only 15% of the full price, then why save on VI at the expense of a number of characteristics? In the frigate’s VI, all these systems would be much more harmonious and would reveal their full potential. And it would be possible to put a normal “Poliment” along with “Redoubt”. If 20385 turned out at a price almost like Gorshkov ... it’s better to build Gorshkovs in the required quantity. Or a lightened version of them, a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.
                      "Universal" is always worse than a "specialist" in any profession. And the smaller the experimental displacement, the more obvious it is.
                      Ships of small VI should be specialists. Especially for work in BMZ, where they can always rely on basic fighter aircraft. And they will be provided with early radar support by over-the-horizon radars, coastal and ship radars, and AWACS aircraft for complete happiness (Ahura-Mazda went quickly and in sufficient quantities). It’s much faster and easier to disperse submarines from fighter aircraft than to target airborne air defense systems at maximum range. And for the ship "Reduta" (and especially the corvette), the maximum range of interception is 60 - 70 km. At the "Shell-M" I recall - 40 km. , and from the "Harpoons" he will also be beaten off.
                      As a former officer of the combat command of the KP of the air defense unit, I am flattered by so much attention to the air defense systems in the fleet, but there must be a reasonable limit to this. When the 20385 was being designed, there were no plans for the Pantsir-M, and the only thing that could be made from light air defense systems was the Dagger with its 12 km. range ... Of course I wanted more and started dancing around the "Redoubt" in a small building ... Agree, the experiments were not very successful (especially on 20380). And too expensive and complicated. After all, they are not only used, but also maintained, tuned, repaired, and calibrated (here I am talking about the radio engineering part, which even older systems had considerable problems with at the Pacific Fleet). And on the ship they will be operated by ordinary contractors and midshipmen ...
                      Quote: D16

                      Taki build. Project 20386. And the Gorshkov-Supergorshkov is for the ocean.

                      In this Wonderland, only the lazy did not trample. Laziness is repeated ... the word wrecking - softly, sabotage - closer, but time will tell, maybe they will sort it out better. I see the only benefit from it in the experience of creating a power plant with an electric transmission. In the future it may come in handy. But after all, it’s just not yet. And the prospects are foggy.
                      And the picture you painted on the organization of the PLO in the BMZ is good, I would even say it is beautiful, but ... as my teacher at the university (military) on mathematical analysis said, "this is all an empirical question." And in real life, you yourself know how things are with submarine aircraft, how many diesel-electric submarines we have and how many will appear in the foreseeable future, how things are with the surface component of submarines in BMZ and that the situation will not improve much in the coming years. Therefore, the issue must be approached comprehensively, without neglecting any component, because an error in planning will lead to failures for many years. Already led, but there were objective reasons for that ...
                      Here is a good example:
                      Quote: D16

                      One submarine on duty, as was officially announced today on the basis of civilians, and not only Tu-204-214, already built and standing at the fence, will be able to cover an incommensurably large water area and will work quieter and more efficiently. Here you have the flying dog.

                      But even one such aircraft will appear very soon. As the "officially announced" this miracle will happen closer to 2030, it is not known in what quantities and in what quality. If with the notorious "Novella", then there will be little sense from them. If with that which we are vaguely hinting at ... maybe by 2030 we will come closer to the possibilities of a probable adversary at least qualitatively (never quantitatively). but constantly circling over the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the Sea of ​​Japan, in the zones of the straits of the Kuril Ridge, they certainly will not be able to. For this we need NK. In sufficient quantity and quality.
                      And if you are familiar with the weather, which are there for six months or more, then you yourself will agree that it will be difficult to serve corvettes in such conditions - we need frigates. And corvettes for guarding bases and in good weather.
                      The same is true for SF.
                      And it’s not at all ridiculous to ditch a ton of money and time for R&D and the construction of ships that do not correspond to the fleets of the BZ.
                      Therefore, looking at today and tomorrow, I do not share the enthusiasm from what I saw. In this, the position of Klimov and Timokhin is closer to me, and the situation needs to be corrected. hi
                    11. D16
                      D16 18 January 2020 22: 14 New
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                      Is it just a GEM? And how does the Barrier work there? A BIUS? No habitability complaints, due to such a tight lineup? How fully are the possibilities of “Redoubt” paired with the “Barrier” revealed? Do you miss Pomenta?

                      http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg
                      GOSy continue. While the steamer was not returned for revision.
                      but at what price and at what price?

                      Candles not purchased in our church are not a sacrifice to God (c) laughing These candles were bought in our church laughing .
                      it’s better to build the Gorshkovs in the required quantity. Or a lightened version of them, a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.

                      Good bodies are not born often.
                      GEM with electric transmission.

                      There is no electric transmission there.
                      But even one such aircraft will appear very soon.


                      Tomorrow war? request
                    12. bayard 19 January 2020 01: 09 New
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                      Quote: D16
                      Tomorrow war?

                      What if tomorrow?
                      Or the day after tomorrow ?
                      The army and navy must be ready for war at any moment of their existence - this is their purpose.
                      1914 - "No one wanted war. War was inevitable."
                      Or is the situation in the world easier?
                      Or are we surrounded by friends and allies?
                      Or are our enemies not capable of madness?

                      Quote: D16

                      http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg
                      GOSy continue. While the steamer was not returned for revision.

                      And God forbid that they do not return, he is needed at the Pacific Fleet, let him run there in the spring.
                      But they refused to lay new ones.
                      And why ?
                      But because there are much more questions to such a ship than answers. Moreover, the answers are positive, confident and unambiguous.
                      And no, the most successful tests will not bring its price to a reasonable and acceptable value.
                      Quote: D16
                      Candles not purchased in our church are not a sacrifice to God (c) These candles were bought in our church.

                      Have you truly decided that I am lobbying for some commercial or industrial interests from the military-industrial complex?
                      Past.
                      Just the topic of the optimal corvette and frigate of the PLO, we have been discussing at VO for more than a year, and in such dialogues with you we have already pushed these topics up and down.
                      Quote: D16
                      it’s better to build the Gorshkovs in the required quantity. Or a lightened version of them, a smaller displacement, in the same 3500 - 4000 tons.

                      Good bodies are not born often.

                      Now in design it is more reasonable to "dance" from the GEM. And successful cases with us have turned out before. If for such a frigate (3500–4000 tons) a GEM from Gorshkov is installed, its speed will reach 30 knots, which would be very good.
                      Other options were also offered.
                      Quote: D16
                      There is no electric transmission there.

                      Then it makes no sense, from the word "absolutely."
                      But there were just conversations. In any case, at low speed.
                      Quote: D16
                      http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2020/01/03-8209625-dsc-2303-kopiya.jpg

                      A beautiful photograph, but the hand is reaching out to make some changes ... But the price is that way ... I wish him to finish the tests soon and leave for the Pacific Fleet. And to his sistership the same.

                      And for complete clarity. I am not opposed to “Redoubt” in favor of the “Shell-M”, as such. I am for rationality, technical and financial feasibility (alas, our budget is limited) and for the rhythmic work of the defense industry and the timely receipt of ships in the fleet.
                      And yet - corvettes are not the main class of the ships of our fleet, and their construction should not interfere, hamper or delay the construction and commissioning of the ship of the main classes. Zelenodolsk’s production facilities are quite suitable for this, their competencies are quite consistent, they have such a production site as the Kerch Gulf, adds weights to its bowl ...
                      Will it be possible to establish the construction of a properly modernized version of 20380 at its facilities?
                      Not sure .
                      Unfortunately . All the same - capitalism, the lobbying of their interests by competing design bureaus, and the personal ambitions of leaders and officials ...
                      Stalin could.
                      But we do not have Stalin.
                      And not Stalin's Commissars.
                      It's a pity ! yes
                    13. D16
                      D16 19 January 2020 10: 35 New
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                      And God forbid that they do not return, he is needed at the Pacific Fleet, let him run there in the spring.

                      Remember how many years the Poliment on the Gorshkov brought to mind. And I won’t be surprised if the mast with the Barrier is on the SuperGorshkov.
                      But they refused to lay new ones.
                      And why ?

                      Due to the lack of a suitable GEM.
                      Have you truly decided that I am lobbying for some commercial or industrial interests from the military-industrial complex?
                      Past.

                      Not at all. I wrote that the money spent on 20385 remains in our economy and is partially returned to the budget in the form of taxes. So I don’t see the point of scolding. We have already stepped on the rake of creating specialized ships. Recall pr 1155 and 956. History repeats itself within the framework of a smaller displacement.
                      Then it makes no sense, from the word "absolutely."
                      But there were just conversations. In any case, at low speed.

                      There should be CODLAG or CODLOG. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODLAG
                      I do not know for sure. But there is no question of a full electric ship.
                      And yet - corvettes are not the main class of the ships of our fleet, and their construction should not interfere, hamper or delay the construction and commissioning of the ship of the main classes.

                      We need to build what we can build. At the moment it is only 20380 and on the way 22350 and 20386.
                      There is nothing else due to the lack of a power plant.
                      And successful cases with us have turned out before. If for such a frigate (3500–4000 tons) a GEM from Gorshkov is installed, its speed will reach 30 knots, which would be very good.

                      It turned out, and then from them for many decades squeezed all the juices. 1135 is an example of this. 1154 is an example of an unsuccessful platform that was abandoned by building two buildings. Why develop a frigate with a VI of 3,5-4 kT, if there is a well balanced Gorshkov 4,5 kT? Reducing the VI with the same volume and weight of the power plant will have to reduce the BC and fuel supply. It was not for nothing that on 20386 they began to be wise with CODLAG and VRSH, which we did not have on the ships of this class. By the way, the ship should be very balanced and if everything goes together, it will be much better than 11356.
  • Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 20: 08 New
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    Quote: D16
    ... What do we have in this "Cheetah +" except for 16 UKKS? GEM is not for him. Means of self-defense against torpedoes, as well as the zonal air defense complex, are also absent. A small surname Gus, maybe OGA ...

    And here Ryabov raised a topic that everyone is interested in discussing !! Good girl.
    Quote: bayard
    ... "Package-NK" and on this corvette is not difficult to install. Yes, I think he is there and should be so ...

    Well, as for the performance characteristics of the proposed project (its filling), then probably for more substantive disputes, you need to wait for more skillful insiders of information space (like Alexander Timokhin or Andrey from Chelyabinsk). Those before "raise the topic, new project", to put it mildly "do not disdain to ask his TTX" !!!
    Quote: D16
    ... This is a complete alteration of the building for GAS Zarya 2 in the nasal bulb, BUGAS, which was not present at Zelenodolsk projects,
    Not a fact (in terms of a complete alteration of the case). And of course, Zarya-2 is needed there, and I’m sure that the customer (represented by the Navy) will definitely indicate this, and Zelenodolsk, having seen the interest in his project, the customer, will certainly write it successfully !!
    Quote: bayard
    In addition, the fact that Zelenodolsk will be involved in this project (this is precisely his profile) will allow Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg to be unloaded for projects of the highest priority for them - DMZ and OZ ships - 22350 and 22350M. They also need to be built in commodity quantities.
    and this is also a great argument!
    Quote: D16
    What kind of power plant will provide him with excellent speed characteristics?
    Good question. But really, I’ll wait for Timokhin’s “reporting” about this new project. I think he’ll dig about the planned GEM ?! And then it will be more interesting for us to discuss. In any case, there will be “something to discuss,” I want to believe ...
    Quote: bayard
    Rather, it will be cheaper, because we saved on the Poliment Redut.
    . I think so. it seems to me that the Pantsir-M is enough for the PLO corvette (well, the maximum is Shtil-1) and that’s if you count it as a ship for distant escorts, although I am inclined to believe that such missions are more likely for frigates 22350, and not for OVR and PLO corvette in BMZ ...
  • Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 14: 39 New
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    Quote: Luty
    It would be better to continue the construction of 20385.
    Nah .. Not better. Too expensive, and already because of that - not rational!
    1. D16
      D16 16 January 2020 21: 46 New
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      Nah .. Not better. Too expensive, and already because of that - not rational!

      To whom does the fleet pay this money? Own defense industry. With this money they regularly pay taxes, people get a white salary. The money spent on the construction of its excellent ship cannot be spent irrationally because it is direct support for its own defense industry. They will not support theirs; in five years they will have to support the Chinese.
  • Pashhenko Nikolay 14 January 2020 18: 50 New
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    Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.
    1. Snail N9 14 January 2020 19: 21 New
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      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts..

      I liked the statement of one colleague here on the forum: "Russia is entering the era of virtual weapons."
    2. donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 54 New
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      Well, it’s easy to rivet the models. By the way, the news about the introduction of the Chinese destroyer did not.






      6 destroyers of this project are already on the water. These are not sticky models wink
      Project 055 Nanchang lead destroyer was launched in Shanghai on June 28, 2017 . On December 26, 2019, the launch ceremony of the sixth destroyer of project 055 was held at the shipyard in Dalian.

      Destroyers of this project are the largest under construction Now there are non-aircraft escort surface warships in the world, with an estimated total displacement of about 13 thousand tons and a length of 180 meters. Project 055 destroyers will be equipped with universal vertical launchers with 112 cells for missiles for various purposes.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan 14 January 2020 23: 32 New
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        Corvette, pr. 20385 this Chinese destroyer will tear like a turtle to God.

        The Chinese’s missiles are not long-range, ours fly further, which means that our ships will be able to hit the Chinese without entering their zone of destruction, no matter how much they do.
        1. donavi49 15 January 2020 09: 42 New
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          This destroyer has the same missiles - by analogy with Calm1 => HQ-16. And those same Americans, believe that Russia bypasses the agreement banning the sale of missiles over 300km range, passing on production technology. Which, by the way, is also officially presented.


          And even before 112 missiles, the fruit of the S-300PMU + F + Chinese crazy hands, with control on new radars. Do they live 8 Caliber? wink Even if we take the supersonic breakthrough stage in the last 40km.
    3. alexmach 15 January 2020 00: 04 New
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      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.

      And I think the appearance of this particular layout is very positive news. The abundance of information about new corvettes and ersatz corvettes means that now there is a choice of a ship for the near sea zone, which means that the problems that the forum does not cry only lazy are understandable and work is underway to solve them. And apparently thoughtfully and without fuss as with the Karakurts "replacing" frigates.
      1. bayard 15 January 2020 06: 02 New
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        Quote: alexmach
        thoughtfully and without fuss as with the Karakurts "replacing" frigates.

        Original opinion. repeat
        But the "Karakurt" (and "Buyans") replaced \ replace other RTOs and compensate ( yes ) unfinished (for objective reasons) frigates - carriers of the Kyrgyz Republic. They could not build frigates for some time, they built a herd of RTOs with the same Caliber. With external target designation, they can also do something. But they certainly did not replace frigates.
    4. Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 20: 21 New
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      Quote: Pashhenko Nikolay
      Soon we will be ahead of the rest in creating layouts.
      ... Well, as they say, - "What is rich ..." !!! request
  • Snail N9 14 January 2020 18: 51 New
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    “Maybe” - “can’t”, and if it’s “able” .... Again, everything in the future tense, that is, “nothing” ... As we like, everything is "under" to be "cheap and tasteful" , such as "under-frigate", "under-corvette", etc. Only now, all that "under" is good this does not happen, namely - "under".
  • swzero 14 January 2020 18: 59 New
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    In my opinion, the IPC project based on karakut is more interesting.
    1. donavi49 14 January 2020 19: 51 New
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      Well, there are minuses and limitations. Again - do PLO corvette with three booming high-speed 112 cylinders each, this is the level of the 70s.
    2. Luty 14 January 2020 20: 28 New
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      Nothing good on the basis of karakurt as an IPC does not work. These are different concepts. Karakurt is the newly re-organized MRKA project 1234 and this is his success. And the IPC must be done on the basis of 1124 or even from scratch, but first you need to decide on the propulsion system.
      1. bayard 15 January 2020 06: 08 New
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        The proposed corvette project was designed on the basis of the Cheetah, which is much better than 1124 and was created to replace it.
        If instead of "Palma" is "Shell-M", it will be a great ship BMZ.
      2. swzero 17 January 2020 14: 19 New
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        https://topwar.ru/166159-shag-v-pravilnuju-storonu-zasvechen-proekt-mnogocelevogo-karakurta-plo.html
        I think a good option
  • Alexey RA 14 January 2020 19: 08 New
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    Behind it, on a superstructure, is the Palma air defense missile and artillery complex. Near the hangar are two six-barreled anti-aircraft guns.

    And why such duplication? I'm not talking about the "Palm", which is regularly slandered that it is not ZRAK and ZAK because of problems with missiles.
    Something seems to me that the fleet in place of the "Palms" will require to put the "Shell-M". And even two (the second - in the feed sector, instead of a pair of "blowtorches").
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 20: 55 New
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      Something seems to me that the fleet in place of the "Palms" will require to put the "Shell-M". And even two (the second - in the feed sector, instead of a pair of "blowtorches").

      Where to? To the roof of the hangar? laughing
      1. bayard 15 January 2020 06: 27 New
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        Quote: D16
        Where to? To the roof of the hangar?

        Instead.
        And the hangar is mobile.
    2. bayard 15 January 2020 06: 25 New
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      Even one “Shell-M” instead of “Palma” will radically change its air defense capabilities. The second aft, perhaps it will be a little expensive. And you have to abandon the capital hangar by installing a movable one. Which, by the way, would be the best solution if the price remains within reason.
      It's just that the price with two “Carapace-M” will be already like that of 20380. And with one - it’s kind of cheaper.
      At the same time, 16 missile launchers in the UKKS will make it possible to have a missile launcher of missiles in any configuration: missile torpedoes, "Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircons" (if God gives them to us) - depending on the knowledge base.
      The main thing is to have a good towed GAS. And if she and the Carapace are, it will be the best that the fleet in BMZ could wish for.
      And of course, "Package-NK", but it now goes to every ship from the corvette and above. hi
  • Demagogue 14 January 2020 19: 17 New
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    Quote: bars1
    And you can determine what weapons and equipment he has, and which not, from these muddy pics?

    Everything is clear from one quote. “The ship’s missile armament has been doubled at least (16 missiles), it has more powerful air defense systems, and the capabilities of anti-submarine defense have been significantly enhanced by a permanent-based helicopter,” Dmitry Kabirov, chief engineer of Ak Bars Corporation, told RIA Novosti Crimea.


    PLO are going to build around the helicopter. What an absurdity for such a small ship. Is that calm. Plus, the capabilities of our helicopters are, to put it mildly, limited. There are no modern torpedoes for helicopters. Submersible gas has a limited range. Bombs just throw.

    To call what is standing there, the air defense language also will not turn.

    One lie. The lack of a towed station without options. I do not see the package. Maybe my eyesight is let down by the senile.
  • fiberboard 14 January 2020 19: 26 New
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    We’ll listen to the message tomorrow, they’ll tell you everything.
    1. Mordvin 3 14 January 2020 19: 39 New
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      Quote: fiberboard
      We’ll listen to the message tomorrow, they’ll tell you everything.

      Hello Santa Claus, cotton beard ...
  • Orkraider 14 January 2020 20: 10 New
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    Corvette project 11664: there are chances to get to the construction


    God forbid!
    We need PLO ships, and inexpensive corvettes, like the 20380 of the latest series with an updated mast.
    But there is no GAS, nor Package-NK, nor RBU. As a PLO this is an empty place.
    I don’t feel like talking about air defense, it isn’t in fact, what kind of “small frigate” is it?

    God forbid!
    1. Nemchinov Vl 16 January 2020 22: 08 New
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      Quote: Orkraider
      Need ships PLO,
      yes ...
      Quote: Orkraider
      и inexpensive corvettes
      so all is in favor ... !!
      Quote: Orkraider
      like 20380
      so it directly contradicts the concept - inexpensive corvettes .. That's just the point!
      Quote: Orkraider
      latest series with an updated mast.
      those. even more expensive than the "first" ...?!
      Quote: Orkraider
      God forbid!
      it's just about 20380 !! for just he -
      Quote: Orkraider
      As a PLO this is an empty place.
      .
      Quote: Orkraider
      And on this there is neither GAS nor Package-NK,
      from Ryabov’s article, speak confidently about the performance characteristics, and at least “relatively accurate composition of weapons” ...?! Are you reading between the lines ?! ...
      1. Orkraider 17 January 2020 00: 40 New
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        Are you reading between the lines ?! ...

        I think logically.
        This proposal is a converted version of the project 11661, the version delivered to the Russian Navy 11661-K - HAC and GAS does not.
        Even if we assume that this option is to get a kit from Cheetah 3.9 (SAR Zarnitsa MGK-335M, the middle frequency range with a wing antenna), then, in comparison with 20380 (SAR Zarya-2 in the nose bulb, towed by GAS Minotaur-M and omitted GAS Anapa-M), a significantly simplified sonar armament is obtained (with the abandonment of GAK Zarya and its replacement with an older one and with worse performance characteristics of the GAS MG-335M.

        For the rest of your
        so it directly contradicts the concept of inexpensive corvettes

        those. even more expensive than the "first" ...?!

        I will answer:
        It does not contradict.
        20380 balanced and inexpensive corvette, cheaper than 20385 and at the same time has acceptable air defense and anti-aircraft defense. And the integrated tower mast design (IBMK), without increasing the price excessively, increases the characteristics.

        And most importantly: where do the power plants come from?
        Those characteristics that are indicated directly hint at a CODOG twin-shaft power plant (1 diesel engine 86B 18DRPN + 2 x gas turbine engine M90 ​​full speed + power plant 3 diesel generators) we can’t get from Ukraine ... they are with a creak for the Vietnamese Cheetahs given out.

        Therefore, based on this, I wrote: God forbid.
        Better than 20380, which is mastered and can be produced without a lottery with a deadline and an end result. Plus, this "small frigate" I think will be worth at least 12 ... and this is the cost of 20380))

        PS. I sincerely hope that they didn’t blurt out about a series of 20380 at the NEA ..
        1. Nemchinov Vl 17 January 2020 01: 30 New
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          Quote: Orkraider
          I will answer: It does not contradict.
          from what ?!
          Quote: Orkraider
          Plus, this "small frigate" I think will be worth at least 12 ...
          sorry what 12? If we are talking about billion rubles ?! Well, even the first 20380 cost from 17 !! And then they came close to 20 ... In my opinion (if I guessed your way of thinking about units of value), then 12 will be much "tastier" for re-equipping the fleet of obsolete Albatrosses, at 11664!
          Quote: Orkraider
          and this is the cost of 20380
          but there are not 12, but already about 20 billion rubles. for a unit !! Which to call -
          Quote: Orkraider
          20380 balanced and inexpensive corvette
          already the language does not turn!
          Quote: Orkraider
          has acceptable air defense
          excessively expensive for the PLO corvette in the BMZ, (and yes, the effective use of the "long-range redoubt missiles" on corvettes that do not have the Polyment antenna still raises doubts among many?!) If we assume that this opinion is true , it is more reasonable to complete the Shtil-1 air defense system corvettes (the price is less, the effective range is 50-70 km.) ?! and
          Quote: Orkraider
          and PLO
          absent from the word "nothing than" (or completely). For Hack "Dawn" will be able to detect, but on 20380 nothing to attack the probable enemy submarines, at any significant ranges ?!
          The effective range of the "Pack" ?! I ask you to !! As a complex of anti-torpedo protection, - Yes! But to call it effective anti-submarine weapons (14 - well, even 18 km.) ?! Which boat will let you in ?!
          Concerning
          Quote: Orkraider
          Even if we assume that this option is to get a set from the Cheetah 3.9
          ?! Well ... uh there was 1700 VI, and given that in the proposed project 11664 it was increased to 2500, I don’t see objective reasons not to appear there same Zarya-2, and I completely agree with you, that on the corvette PLO it is necessary. those. its presence suggests itself, and when formulating the order of the Navy, it sells, do not hesitate.
          Quote: Orkraider
          And most importantly: where do the power plants come from?
          Yes, at present this is perhaps the most pressing issue, I agree. Probably Zelenodolsk will offer something like marching diesels (is it possible that there are promising 16D-500?!) And as afterburners, "Saturn" gas turbine engines (possibly like M-70RU)?! We’ll live - we will see how people say.
          Quote: Orkraider
          Therefore, based on this, I wrote: God forbid.
          Better than 20380, which is mastered and can be issued without a lottery with a term of
          at 4-6 years old?!, and this is for the corvette !!, with a fabulous price! and just unjustifiably "skewed armament" towards air defense, instead of anti-aircraft defense ?!
          1. Orkraider 17 January 2020 09: 48 New
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            Well ... uh ... there was 1700 VI, and given that in the proposed project 11664 it was increased to 2500, I don’t see objective reasons

            In this discussion, we are talking about what we see. On the layout there is no Dawn, will appear or not, the grandmother said in two. For his appearance will have to redesign the case.

            absent from the word “nothing” (or completely). For Hack “Dawn” will be able to detect, but on 20380 nothing to attack the submarine of the probable enemy

            Up to 12 km package, at a greater range - a helicopter. RBU is not enough, I agree.

            sorry what 12? If we are talking about billion rubles ?! Well, even the first 20380 cost from 17 !! And after and right up to 20 came ...
            Incorrectly written. The cost of the Cheetah supplied to Vietnam was 12 billion, taking into account the addition of UkSK and increasing displacement, the cost of the new project will approach 20380. But to compare and evaluate without the exact composition of the weapons and the final appearance of this project is stupid.

            Further discussion with fortune-telling does not make sense, for they have already gone into speculation, as you wrote:
            We’ll live - we will see how people say.
  • Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 14 New
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    Another corvette 11661. 20380. 20385. 20386. Now this is a miracle

    His time is gone it's like a budget option 20380

    As with frigates 11356 and 22350

    Put on 20380 inclined pu for calibers if you need them so much

    Need a corvette, flat, throw 2 compartments 22800, set the gas and the platform for the helicopter cheap and angry

    And drive the series on Zelenodolsk Pella Bay to the gas station it was necessary not to build 22800, but to continue building in 20380, since we walked the factory that I built before. Then there will probably be motor and inflatable boats
    1. Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 22 New
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      it's like a budget option 20380
      But 20380 is not going to pawn anymore, that’s the problem. This project has degenerated into a re-corvette 20386. A submarine at our borders, something to look for.
      1. Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 45 New
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        Rumor has it that they will continue the series at the NEA
      2. Nemchinov Vl 15 January 2020 23: 49 New
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        Quote: Vadmir
        But 20380 is not going to pawn anymore, that’s the problem.
        Well, rather than a problem, but a belated enlightenment, from impractical sprayed funds ....
    2. Vadmir 14 January 2020 20: 24 New
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      Need a corvette, flat, throw 2 compartments 22800, set the gas and the platform for the helicopter cheap and angry
      The same option and a similar project also exist.
      1. Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 35 New
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        There is no helicopter

        But this monster is just a horror without air defense systems, but judging by the layout from the MF RLK. Why is it there is a rhetorical question
        It seems that they found the layout 20385 and let's cut off the mast and so it doesn’t look like they screwed it onto the hangar !!!! So that the cable runs along the entire ship

        I remember the layout 22350M which was assembled according to the same principle already came across and let’s give a little more
    3. Tiksi-3 14 January 2020 20: 49 New
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      Quote: FoxNova
      Put on 20380 inclined pu for calibers if you need them so much

      belay fool
      Quote: FoxNova
      And drive

      there we drive you .... and you all come back
      1. Foxnova 14 January 2020 20: 52 New
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        Yeah, only the country needs ships and not layouts ....
  • Vladimir1155 14 January 2020 20: 22 New
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    my opinion is that the variety and number of surface ships is already becoming redundant, so far only build minesweepers and submarines, and after 10 years to return to the question of building a surface fleet
  • Stils 14 January 2020 20: 26 New
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    Give the layouts !!! Many and different!
    It's time to learn how to do full-size inflatable! Somewhere, on the approach to the Faroe-Icelandic border, he inflated a whole warrant, the submarine of the probable enemy pulled over Opa too! RPKSNy in the ladies laughing
  • Eug
    Eug 14 January 2020 21: 58 New
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    As for me, to take a well-developed Albatros corps, to equip it with functionally justified weapons (the functions are the same as those of the Albatrosses, only the iron is "modernized", for example, instead of the Wasp - Dagger or Shell, etc.). The overall dimensions will decrease and due to the freed masses and places to place a couple of drones of the helicopter circuit. For BMZ and the “closure” of inland seas, control of deployment routes for the sea component of the strategic nuclear forces, and dispersal of hostile ICBMs will suffice. It will be inexpensive and easy to learn l / s.
    1. D16
      D16 14 January 2020 22: 32 New
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      for example, instead of a Wasp - Dagger or Shell. The overall dimensions will decrease and, due to the freed masses and places, place a couple of drones.

      He will walk with your Shell “pig”, and with a Dagger (40 + tons), he’ll drown in general.
      For BMZ and the “closure” of inland seas, control of deployment routes for the sea component of the strategic nuclear forces, and dispersal of hostile ICBMs will suffice.

      Theoretically, the albatross could find something only in a drift with the release of the OGAS. Given the radically reduced noise level on modern boats, you will have to set up the MPC every 2-3 miles. lol
    2. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 10: 42 New
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      Quote: Eug
      As for me, take a well-developed Albatross building

      Is the Khabarovsk Shipyard still alive? With Poroshenko’s forge, everything is clear.
      And the second - what to do with the power plant? We simply do not have a gas turbine engine. And you already know about the situation with the M507.
      In addition, Zvezdovsky diesel engines with 112 pots each are not the best choice for a ship whose main working tool is acoustics.
      Quote: Eug
      The overall dimensions will decrease and due to the freed masses and places to place a couple of drones of the helicopter circuit.

      Which ones? We have been trying to copy Horizons for ten years without any way out. And they were ordered not by the fleet, but by the FSB - and all the same to no avail. Because of this, the faces even refused to continue purchasing PSKR with helipads. back to the Fireflies.
      By and large, we have only one helicopter for the Navy - the Ka-27. From this we must dance.
      1. Eug
        Eug 15 January 2020 14: 53 New
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        I did not expect that everything is so sad ... then an increase in displacement and cost is inevitable ...
  • Demagogue 14 January 2020 22: 33 New
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    By the way, after reading an interview with an engineer of Akbars, I had a strong feeling that 11664 is a development of Buyan-M. From here the lack of air defense is inherited and the main task is to cram more calibers. As I understand it, the number of calibers is the main thing that determines the choice of a project for our military leadership. PLO does not bother anyone at all. Therefore, when showing models to Putin, they emphasized the number of cells. Why we are building these floating batteries is not clear.
    1. alexmach 15 January 2020 00: 21 New
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      PLO doesn't bother anyone at all

      Firstly, there is a bulb of a sap-like GAS. Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.
      1. Alexey RA 15 January 2020 15: 33 New
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        Quote: alexmach
        Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.

        To do this, it’s easier, cheaper and faster to form new RBDs with CRNB and order equipment for them.
        In addition, these brigades have greater survivability (because neither the PLO nor the Navy of the "Navy" caliber carriers can provide, and we only have air defense near the naval base) and can be quickly deployed between the theater of operations.
  • Sapsan136 15 January 2020 08: 24 New
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    Already at first glance, the need to strengthen the PLO and air defense of this ship is striking, otherwise we will get a huge missile boat with a displacement, with a helicopter, without PLO and with air defense at the level of RTOs
  • Demagogue 15 January 2020 09: 44 New
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    Quote: alexmach
    PLO doesn't bother anyone at all

    Firstly, there is a bulb of a sap-like GAS. Well and yes, caliber carriers are also needed, someone voiced the task of increasing the number of deployed missiles at times.

    The caliber carrier can also be made from a container ship by an auxiliary cruiser. Not much worse than this barge will be. And also vulnerable to modern squares without towed gas and jamming stations. We repeat the mistakes of the Argentines. In the Falkland War, they had a surface fleet that could take part in the war, but due to inadequate PLO remained at the bases.
  • Pavel57 15 January 2020 12: 37 New
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    Good luck Zelenodoltsy in competition with SPKB.
    It is a pity, the patrol ship of project 11540 remained in only two copies.
  • ser56 15 January 2020 13: 36 New
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    Again they came up with a nedofregat instead of a corvette ... request
  • Cympak 15 January 2020 14: 53 New
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    Zelenodolsk Design Bureau offered interesting options for the OVR corvette contest - vessels with outriggers (ATS)
    Corvette Rusich-1500

    And actually the frigate "Rusich-2400"

    And this 11664 against their background is some kind of misunderstanding :(
  • Demagogue 15 January 2020 17: 06 New
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    Quote: bayard

    But the ship is good - the hull and the power plant from the Cheetah
    And for the price it will be cheaper than 20380. While being much more powerful in PLO and shock capabilities.

    Hello. Half-empty cheetahs were sold to Vietnam for $ 350 million, and 22800 costs 10 times cheaper. Swedish Visby for comparison is 150 million, which is very expensive for us.
  • lopuhan2006 15 January 2020 18: 03 New
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    Pot, do not cook !!!!! This is just a tin going on in the minds of the Navy. 100500 project of the next corvette (IPC, MRK, patrolman, etc.). But 20350 ..... 4 and again the new super20350.
  • bk0010 15 January 2020 22: 31 New
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    Let everyone build 22350: he has both air defense, and anti-aircraft defense, and price, and displacement correspond. And the helicopter fits without dancing with a tambourine. And I will build corvettes later, when we decide what and how much is needed (I - for 20385: albeit expensive, but there is everything. I suspect that if our corvettes cost half as much, then they would not be twice as much: they would rest in industry, in basing, in the absence of personnel, etc.). I really do not want to replace zonal air defense with self-defense air defense even on the corvette - it is fraught: we have few ships, and the states have many planes. And so - a bunch will be a chance to brush it off on occasion.
  • storm 16 January 2020 00: 14 New
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    Recently, the Chinese Navy received the 52nd corvette of the Type 056 project, and taking into account the already laid down hulls, their number will soon be 60 ....
    All that is required for the OVR corvette is present on these ships.
    The most suitable Russian analogue was recently presented by TsPKB Almaz


    As a revision of the project:
    - increase in water displacement up to 1,5 ct
    - Replacement of SAM Bending on the Shell-M
    - installation of inclined launchers for anti-ship missiles (Uranus, Caliber) to the right and left of the RBU

    Count on 60 units. The Russian Navy does not have to, but 24-30 units. quite a lifting series ...
  • storm 16 January 2020 00: 51 New
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    The small anti-submarine ship of the 23420 project should have a displacement of 1300 m and the corresponding dimensions: about 75 m and maximum width up to 13 m. According to the developer’s calculations, the main power plants proposed for use will allow the ship to reach speeds up to 25-30 nodes and provide a cruising range to 2500 nautical miles The ship will be operated by a crew of 60 people. Autonomy is set at 15 days.
    The artillery in the new project is represented by one AK-176MA installation with a 76 mm gun and one 306 mm AK-30 anti-aircraft system. The ammunition load of the 76 mm installation is 152 rounds, and up to 30 shells are stored in the 500 mm system. A larger caliber artillery mount is mounted in front of the superstructure and has a characteristic faceted casing that reduces radar visibility. The location of the anti-aircraft AK-306 so far raises questions. In some figures, instead of the AK-306 and Bending, the ZRAK Broadsword is depicted.

    Also, the ship's barrel systems are represented by two heavy machine guns. This weapon with an ammunition load of 2000 rounds should be located on the pedestal installations on board.

    The main anti-aircraft weapons of the 23420 spacecraft are one 3M-47 “Bending” and 20 portable SAM systems of the “Needle” or “Needle-S” type. Such weapons can attack air targets at ranges and altitudes of up to several kilometers. At smaller distances, the destruction of air targets should be made by artillery systems.

    The main task of a promising ship, as can be seen from its classification, is the fight against enemy submarines. To destroy the detected submarines ship project 23420 must carry the appropriate weapons. In the aft part, at the sides below the level of the helipad, it is proposed to mount two launchers of the small-sized anti-submarine torpedo complex “Package-NK” or “Package-E”. Ammunition complex declared at the level of eight torpedoes. At the same time on the published images drawn twin-tube launchers.

    An additional anti-submarine vehicle is the RPK-8E Zapad complex. It includes the 12-barreled rocket launcher RBU-6000, which is used to launch the RSL-60 depth bombs or 90P anti-submarine missiles. Total ammunition system - 48 missiles and bombs. Bomb launchers must be mounted in front of the superstructure, behind the artillery.
    1. Alexey RA 16 January 2020 17: 31 New
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      Quote: assault
      The artillery in the new project is represented by one AK-176MA installation with a 76 mm gun and one 306 mm AK-30 anti-aircraft system.

      Calling the AK-306 "anti-aircraft" is great to flatter this AU. For it is a lightweight low-magnetic AU, developed primarily for the MF and does not have a radar fire control system. And firing at a rocket while controlling MZA from a sighting column is not even funny.
      And the rate of fire at the AK-306 is only 600-1000 rpm - because, to facilitate AC, the barrel water cooling system was also removed.
      Quote: assault
      The main anti-aircraft guns of the project 23420 ship are one 3M-47 "Bend" complex and 20 portable Igla or Igla-S air defense systems.

      That is, the ship does not have anti-aircraft missile defense. For even ATGMs fly farther than MANPADS missiles.
      1. storm 16 January 2020 19: 04 New
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        Therefore, I write that the AK 306 and Bending need to be immediately changed to Shell-M
  • Livonetc 16 January 2020 11: 50 New
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    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    Let's remember what ZIL produced. Cave level cars? If the VAZ bought Renault Nissan and organized the production of more or less decent cars, then no one even gotten into ZIL - hopelessly.

    He also produced small-tonnage trucks with a diesel engine.
    At the end, for example, there was such a model.
    http://www.gruzovikpress.ru/article/24212-istoriya-sozdaniya-zil-230100-samogo-malenkogo-gruzovika-marki-zil-enot-mladshiy-brat-bychka-ch-2/
  • 257950 10 February 2020 08: 32 New
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    Another "underwave." Short-range air defense in the front sphere, and feed with metal cutting. Such a ship is already in the coastal zone of the corpse. A question on anti-submarine defense, if the NK Package with 4 anti-torpedoes and 4 anti-submarine torpedoes on each side, then this project is FIGHT a dummy.
  • Vedzmin 11 February 2020 18: 02 New
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    Nevertheless, it is better to improve and build one type of corvette, saturating it with the necessary weapons, including anti-submarine ones. New episode? What for? Spend the money again? But we already have a series of patrol ships :)
  • Andrey.AN 12 February 2020 15: 03 New
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    Let them make an empty platform, serial, it is better to leave the armament to the military.
  • Andrey.AN 12 February 2020 15: 17 New
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    Like a smartphone locked up with unsolved features.
  • storm 9 March 2020 02: 26 New
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    Another "freak-gauge" from Zelenodolsk plant.
    God forbid that someone will “push” him for the Navy
    it seems they liked to cut grandmothers into stupid highly specialized, but very expensive Buyan-M.
    Instead of mass budget modernization of all 1234 OVOD missile defense systems with the installation of inclined launchers for Onyx and Caliber missile launchers, the fleet paid about 100 billion rubles for 12 Buyan-M missile systems with VERY Doubtful combat capabilities:
    - frankly weak air defense consisting of air defense systems "Bending" and ZAK "DUET";
    - the complete absence of ASGs, anti-torpedo and anti-submarine weapons (there is no ASU even against combat swimmers);
    - bad seaworthiness;
    - lack of a platform for a light helicopter or UAV;
    - Chinese diesels with mediocre reliability and low resource;
    With these huge funds, it was possible to build a division of 6 corvettes, etc. 20380, or 3 frigates, etc. 22350.