The engine for PAK DA will be tested on the "flying laboratory" IL-76

The engine for PAK DA will be tested on the "flying laboratory" IL-76

New engine for a promising long-range aviation complex aviation (PAK YES) will be tested on a Il-76 heavy military transport aircraft, tests will begin at the end of 2020. It is reported by Interfax with reference to an informed source.


According to the source, a contract has now been concluded to finalize the Il-76 military transport, develop design documentation and conduct ground tests of the new engine as part of the flight laboratory. Ground tests will begin at the end of 2020 and should be completed by the end of 2021, after which flight tests are scheduled.

A flying laboratory based on the IL-76 will be finalized for flight tests of the engine of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA)

- leads "Interfax" source words.

The start of the development of an engine for PAK DA in the United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of Rostec) was announced on October 1, 2018. The contract for the creation of an engine for a promising bomber was concluded between the UEC and the Tupolev company in June 2018.

According to reports, the new engine should provide a flight duration of 30 hours, operate stably at air temperatures from minus 60 to plus 50 ° C and be resistant to the effects of the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion. The service life of the PAK DA engine is determined to be 12 years (subsequently it can be increased to 21 years). Engine thrust is expected to be 23 tf.

Earlier it was reported that the promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA), created by the Tupolev design bureau, will replace the long-range and strategic bombers and missile carriers Tu-160, Tu-95MS and Tu-22M3 in service with the airborne forces. Admission to service is expected until 2027.

According to official data, the new aircraft is made according to the flying wing aerodynamic scheme, using technologies that reduce the EPR of the aircraft in the design.

It is assumed that the PAK DA will be subsonic. In addition, based on the voiced data, the new aircraft will be able to carry more weapons than the Tu-160. The nomenclature of armaments should include as hypersonic weapon, and air-to-air missiles - this solution should allow the aircraft to fly unaccompanied.

The rollout of the first prototype of the aircraft is scheduled for 2021-2022. In January last year, the design bureau completed the transfer of the documentation necessary for the start of production to the Kazan Aircraft Plant.
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  1. KJIETyc 8 January 2020 11: 40 New
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    "... the new aircraft is made according to the flying wing aerodynamic design .." Something I missed when it was completed? In the fantasies of managers?
    1. kjhg 8 January 2020 11: 56 New
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      Quote: KJIETyc
      when it was done

      They have a lot of fantasies. In such cases they say "swing for the ruble, and a blow for a penny." Well, let's assume that they will begin to test at the end of 2020. And when will they finish? How many years has the engine for the Su-50 been tested? And they suggest passing it by 2023, it seems? So consider it.
      1. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 12: 06 New
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        The work is on.
        Russia began production of parts for prototypes of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA).


        In 2017, Tupolev has already made a full-size mock PAK DA, and the first flight of the new aircraft is planned for 2025. It was expected that this would happen in 2019-2020, but the return to production of the Tu-160 delayed the creation of a new bomber


        https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/news-536484-dlya-bombardirovshchika-pak-da-nachali-proizvodstvo-detaley/

        The engine for PAK DA is a version of the Product P (NK-23-32), i.e. the Product of the Russian Federation, forced up to 02 tf. Most likely there will be a new gas generator.
        1. kjhg 8 January 2020 12: 12 New
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          Maxim, do not tell me why not PAK YES to put a forced version of the NK-32-02 engine? On it (NK-32-01) fly the Tu-160. But Swans are much heavier than PAK YES, and even so are supersonic.
          1. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 12: 25 New
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            Tu-160 weighs 275 tons, Tu-22M3 weighs 124 tons. PAK DA is almost two times lighter than the Tu-160,145 tons. That is, it is practically in the same mass class as the Tu-22M3M, but with the ability to conduct a long flight to a strategic range in sound as the Tu-160. By the way, on the Tu-22M3M plan to put two NK-32-02 instead of two NK-25 for the production of one type of engine and improve the capabilities of the aircraft.
            So the power-boosted version of NK-32-02 (Product of the Russian Federation) will be just right for the PAK DA. And the engines will be 2, and not 4, like on the Tu-160. If you do not need supersonic, simply remove the afterburner.
            1. kjhg 8 January 2020 12: 29 New
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              Quote: Sky Strike fighter
              And the engines will be 2, not 4 as on the Tu-160

              Then everything is clear hi
            2. bayard 8 January 2020 17: 25 New
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              Maxim, as far as I heard on this topic, for PAK DA (and possibly for the An-124 remotorization), they planned to create an engine based on a gas generator from NK-32, but of course, with a significantly higher bypass ratio. And this is exactly what a subsonic airplane needs.
              The planned engine's power was assumed to be 23 - 25 tf.
              So the gas generator seems to be the same, but the dual circuit, and therefore the diameter of the fan, is larger.
              1. 2Albert 8 January 2020 22: 06 New
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                Fan according to any other in size, but from other materials
            3. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 8 January 2020 18: 54 New
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              Quote: Sky Strike fighter
              By the way, on the Tu-22M3M plan to put two NK-32-02 instead of two NK-25 for the production of one type of engine and improve the capabilities of the aircraft.

              After Tu-22M3, modifications of Tu-22M4 and Tu-22M5 were to appear. The Tupolev Design Bureau and its Kazan branch had very serious developments. They began to be implemented in the mid-80s - the program was called Adaptation. The plane was supposed to get new avionics, an aiming system, engines (NK-32 - the same as on the Tu-160). In addition to engines, the aircraft was supposed to have a new avionics, thanks to which the crew was reduced from four to two people. Even the flying laboratory was made by the Tu-22M4 - the "small Tu-160" - it was shown at MAKS-92. But there was no funding, and the program was cut off. In the “good” times, the “small Tu-160” was even wanted to be cut. Production of the Tu-22M3 was stopped in 1993 (at the same time as the Tu-160), presumably at the convincing request of the Americans. After a long ordeal, the last new car was rolled out of the final assembly workshop in 1997. The production of Soviet NK-32 turbojet engines mounted on the Tu-160 White Swan was discontinued after the collapse of the Soviet Union. More recently, it was decided to resume their production, but in a modernized version (NK-32-02).
          2. seregatara1969 8 January 2020 17: 22 New
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            which plant will produce this lighter? 30 hours of operation without maintenance swing say so on reliability and durability
            1. kjhg 8 January 2020 17: 53 New
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              Quote: seregatara1969
              which plant will produce

              Most likely in Samara, in the same place where they produce for Tu-160 and Tu-22M3.
            2. Iline 8 January 2020 19: 03 New
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              On the Tu-95MS are NK - 12MP (with minor modifications produced since the 50s of the last century). The record of this aircraft for a flight duration of 40 hours. So Nikolay Kuznetsov was able to make engines. I do not know how things are in Samara in this regard.
            3. 2Albert 8 January 2020 22: 18 New
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              Tu-160 max flight time 24h30min (flew 2 sides with 2 additional corrections to Caracas), Tu-95MS 42h. So 30h is already completely solvable, but without refueling only with 2xNK-32-3 and a takeoff weight of PACDA of 150 tons.
        2. mark1 8 January 2020 12: 28 New
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          Quote: Sky Strike fighter
          forced up to 23 tf version of the Product R (NK-32-02)

          NK-32-02 on afterburner and so 25 tons. Probably more correct - the engine based on the NK-32-02 with afterburner traction 23 tf
          1. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 12: 41 New
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            Quote: mark1
            Quote: Sky Strike fighter
            forced up to 23 tf version of the Product R (NK-32-02)

            NK-32-02 on afterburner and so 25 tons. Probably more correct - the engine based on the NK-32-02 with afterburner traction 23 tf

            I had this in mind. hi
            1. mark1 8 January 2020 12: 46 New
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              Quote: Sky Strike fighter
              I had this in mind.

              I didn’t doubt it for a second, I just wanted to add my 5 kopecks to the discussion. hi
        3. Vadim237 8 January 2020 13: 04 New
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          NK 32 will not stand on PAK FA since a supersonic engine with an afterburner is not needed for a subsonic airplane: it’s large, difficult to maintain, voracious and very expensive, almost 1,5 billion rubles apiece, the new engine is most likely a modified sample NK 56.
          1. seregatara1969 8 January 2020 17: 23 New
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            NK motors are Samara?
            1. IL-18 8 January 2020 17: 30 New
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              Samara. But, if they become, suddenly, Kuibyshevsky, then they will definitely become a reality. wink
              1. Vadim237 8 January 2020 19: 45 New
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                With a high probability that this one will stand
                1. Lozovik 8 January 2020 20: 45 New
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                  Quote: Vadim237
                  With a high probability that this one will stand

                  In the photo NK-32 without cook and jet nozzle.
      2. Nevsky_ZU 8 January 2020 12: 24 New
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        Quote: kjhg
        How many years has the engine for the Su-50 been tested?

        And what kind of aircraft is this? what
        1. kjhg 8 January 2020 12: 28 New
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          Su-57 ochepyatka
      3. ODERVIT 8 January 2020 16: 13 New
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        Su-50? Where and when?
      4. venik 8 January 2020 20: 02 New
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        Quote: kjhg
        Well, let's assume that they will begin to test at the end of 2020. And when will they finish? How many years has the engine for the Su-50 been tested?

        =======
        And HOW do you think at all: Is it possible to compare "God's Gift with fried eggs" ???
        Regards, Pantagruel! wassat
    2. figwam 8 January 2020 12: 08 New
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      Quote: KJIETyc
      Did I miss something when it was completed? In the fantasies of managers?

      Read the article to the end, the aerodynamic design has long been known.
      The rollout of the first prototype of the aircraft is scheduled for 2021-2022. In January last year, the design bureau completed the transfer of documentation

      Because first there is a technical task, a project, a layout, a purge at TsAGI, those were developed. documentation, and then the beginning of the assembly of the prototype, which is now happening.
    3. astepanov 8 January 2020 12: 15 New
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      Quote: KJIETyc
      made by the aerodynamic scheme "flying wing".

      Something recalled the song: “Ducks are flying ...” Anyway, and the dates will be postponed according to our old tradition. And they will carry it over until the money is consumed. Then the project will be closed or replaced. The legacy of the USSR - both technological and ideological - ends. Old schools are ruined. They learned to steal, to lie - too, to create - no.
      Fly, minus, gentlemen "patriots" and comrades "democrats" ...
      1. KJIETyc 8 January 2020 12: 21 New
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        They will do it sooner or later. It’s just nauseous from the articles "the image should probably be known for the images from Vasya Pupkin from the Internet."
      2. anykin 8 January 2020 13: 54 New
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        Quote: astepanov
        Fly, minus

        You then flew first)
        1. gurzuf 8 January 2020 15: 40 New
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          ... and for that https://youtu.be/_FyLIUwDQUA am
        2. astepanov 9 January 2020 17: 58 New
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          Quote: anykin
          You flew first

          And who did I run into? And what is wrong? What has REALLY been done, and not la la, in recent decades? Space? Nothing has been done and never will be. New military equipment? Is it about an airplane in one copy without the promised radar and engine, or what? Or about a new gun? Or about Peresvet, which is either there or not, the performance characteristics are unknown, the tasks are not clear ... No matter where you throw it, there is no money for anything. The USSR built housing, infrastructure, schools, hospitals - now in any city water is breathing, the schools are ignorant, healthcare has been optimized to the point that doctors in the cities scatter and are destroyed in the village as a class, except if they send me to the morgue, take a rupee on a mortgage, you give three and you go to the bank to the grave, you don’t have your own electronics, machine tools, instrumentation is breathtaking, the civil aircraft industry has died and the corpse has rotted - you can go on and on. It is only audible: "it will be ... It will be ... It will be .." Not a damn thing. Rogozin will be. The son of Rogozin will be. It will be muddy. Putin and Medvedev will be.
          Gentlemen minus-minders, minus, without giving arguments - this is a cowardly lesson. Your gut is thin, present your arguments.
          1. anykin 9 January 2020 22: 41 New
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            Quote: astepanov
            TTX unknown

            ))))
      3. Artemiy_2 8 January 2020 15: 57 New
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        Well, this is not even funny. Typical text on a training manual. Complaint for flood
    4. Pavel57 8 January 2020 12: 19 New
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      For bookworms it is necessary to write that the design of the aircraft is executed according to the flying wing scheme.))))
      1. KJIETyc 8 January 2020 12: 25 New
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        You are absolutely right, and a photo of the approved project with the signature of the general designer! good
    5. venik 8 January 2020 19: 56 New
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      Quote: KJIETyc
      Did I miss something when it was completed? In the fantasies of managers?

      =========
      "... created the first full-size layout strategic bomber .... "

      Somewhere like that .... (https://aif.ru/society/army/v_rf_sozdan_pervyy_polnorazmernyy_maket_strategicheskogo_bombardirovshchika)
  2. Mixanson 8 January 2020 11: 40 New
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    Now, again, everyone will cheat, as usual ..
  3. Thrifty 8 January 2020 11: 46 New
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    If only they would not interfere with work, and so that the plane does not go to the museum, but in part it starts to arrive. ...
  4. tihonmarine 8 January 2020 11: 46 New
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    That's when the tests begin, then write.
    1. Edik 8 January 2020 12: 39 New
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      Quote: tihonmarine
      That's when the tests begin, then write.

      Are you the editorial staff of VO? Uncle Vlad said not to write until the tests until commissioning and until full manning in the troops !!! Did I get the point correctly?
      1. tihonmarine 8 January 2020 12: 45 New
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        Quote: Edik
        Did I get the point right?

        Well, you yourself know, we have been promised for years all the time, and then they will say that we need to create something else.
        1. Edik 8 January 2020 12: 51 New
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          Quote: tihonmarine
          Well, you yourself know, we have been promised for years all the time, and then they will say that we need to create something else.

          I know what they tell us about promising, modern weapons development! What we had never dreamed of hearing before, since it was forbidden to divulge "military secrets"! So you want to read, you do not want to not read! Something like this hi
  5. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 11: 51 New
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    Did I miss something when it was completed? In the fantasies of managers?

    Why, in fantasies, in February 2019, the appearance of PAK YES was finally determined and all contract documents were signed to launch its production.
    This refers to the experienced PAK YES.


    It seems that the Product of the Russian Federation is the NK-23D. The thrust is also 23 tf.

    “Product 80” is a “flying wing” with a take-off mass of 145 tons and a payload of 30 tons. PAK DA is almost two times lighter than the Tu-160 and is located in mass between the Tu-22M3 and Tu-95MS. Tu-160 weighs 275 tons, Tu-95MS - 185 tons and Tu-22M3 weighs 124 tons. Anatoly Yakovlev, Commander-in-Chief of Long-Range Aviation of the Russian Aerospace Forces, said that the PAK DA would be a flying wing aircraft with a subsonic speed and a range of 15000 km without refueling. The aircraft will be equipped with two “Product of the Russian Federation” engines with a thrust of 23 tons, created on the basis of the NK-32-02 engine (“Product P”). The company "UEC-Kuznetsov" began its development in December 2014.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3088125.html
    1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 12: 29 New
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      Commander-in-Chief of Long-Range Aviation ???? Anatoly Yakovlev ??? I missed something during our month of vacation in our glorious YES
      1. Local from the Volga 8 January 2020 12: 41 New
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        Yesterday, Sergey Ivanovich Kobylash was!)
        1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 12: 44 New
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          So what is it about! Anatoly Yakovlev is not in the backswing, nor even wasted a division link, what kind of strange name in the comment above ???
          1. Local from the Volga 8 January 2020 12: 48 New
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            Head of the CSTO Armed Forces!
          2. Local from the Volga 8 January 2020 12: 50 New
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            Lieutenant General YAKOVLEV Anatoly Stepanovich

            Head of the Department for the Coordination of Planning, Use and Training of the Armed Forces of the CSTO Joint Staff;
            1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 12: 53 New
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              Yeah thanks. Well, the current to YES is by no means all the same.
              1. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 12: 59 New
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                During a December 2014 press conference, Anatoly Yakovlev announced that the prototype PAK DA would take off in 2019, and the aircraft would go to combat units in 2023-2025. We need to see what position he held in December 2014.
                1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 13: 07 New
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                  I have been serving in Long-Range Aviation from the early 2000s to the present day. I never heard of this guy, I don’t argue that he’s a cool military man, general and so on, he just wrote about what was apparently messed up with his post — he was not Commander YES, sales deputy, and in 2014 he ruled the ball Anatoly who Zhikharev. Something like this
                  1. kjhg 8 January 2020 13: 14 New
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                    Quote: Rushnairfors
                    I have been serving in Long-Range Aviation from the early 2000s to the present

                    Dmitry, I don’t hear when the new Tu-160M2 will go to units?
                    1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 13: 24 New
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                      I'd like to go already. But for now, there are few reasons for optimism. But with regard to modernization, it’s successful, the truth is that there, during the road flow, they change and improve not in the know, I have a different type of letabla.
    2. Lozovik 8 January 2020 20: 40 New
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      Quote: Sky Strike fighter
      It seems that the Product of the Russian Federation is the NK-23D. The thrust is also 23 tf.

      NK-23 is a modernized NK-22 with a four-stage low-pressure accelerator, thrust 22 tf on the MPF. He was abandoned in favor of "E" (NK-25).
  6. Antidote 8 January 2020 12: 07 New
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    Flying wing with engines on the pylons. They know how to surprise, we'll see.
    1. Kurare 8 January 2020 12: 15 New
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      Quote: Antidote
      Flying wing with engines on the pylons.

      This is why such a fright? On LL, the engine will be installed on the pylon, and in PAK YES - integrated. Will do, as with the Indian Kaveri for Tejas:
    2. ultra 8 January 2020 12: 59 New
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      And where on the IL-76 you can place the engine, except for the pylon? wassat
      1. Aviator_ 8 January 2020 14: 09 New
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        When the LII had a flying laboratory based on Tu-16, the engine was placed there in the bomb bay, and for testing it was pulled out in flight. It was on this option that the LL crashed in 1971, Amet-Khan Sultan, when he went into acceleration without removing the flaps. The wing fell off the speed head.
      2. IL-18 8 January 2020 17: 38 New
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        Quote: ultra
        And where on the IL-76 you can place the engine, except for the pylon? wassat

        By the way, sorry Tu-104 is gone. There are engines at the fuselage. Although, try to shove the other one there ... what
  7. KJIETyc 8 January 2020 12: 13 New
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    Quote: figvam
    Quote: KJIETyc
    Did I miss something when it was completed? In the fantasies of managers?

    Read the article to the end, the aerodynamic design has long been known.
    The rollout of the first prototype of the aircraft is scheduled for 2021-2022. In January last year, the design bureau completed the transfer of documentation

    Because first there is a technical task, a project, a layout, a purge at TsAGI, those were developed. documentation, and then the beginning of the assembly of the prototype, which is now happening.

    So you show me where the "completed aircraft", I do not see point blank. Maybe when it starts flying, then there will be a completed airplane? But not these renderings in 3D max? Enough to replace concepts and write such clumsy articles. Su-57 see flies.
  8. 75 Sergey 8 January 2020 12: 21 New
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    Well, this song will drag on for 30 years, and there or something will change or Russia will finally be "sawn".
    I like the first option more.
    1. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 12: 38 New
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      Not delayed. Production NK-32-02 has already been deployed. It is not difficult to make its modification, given that for 5 years now they have been developing a new gas generator for the RF Product, which is about to be ready, and everything else will be taken from NK-32-02 (Product P).
      Serial production of the new Tu-160s has already begun from scratch. So they will build PAK DA.
      or something will change

      What do you want to change?
      or Russia is finally "sawn".

      Is someone cutting Russia now? Do not tell me who and when? Just to prevent the sawing of Russia, we are re-equipping the army, building new aircraft. And what do you suggest?
      1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 12: 50 New
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        Until the New Year, the guys from Kazan were taking the board, with Tu160, sadness in general !!! This poor unpainted board, which was shown to the president and doesn’t smell like a series, is being driven back and forth, I myself want new letables, but ... In the course of someone you need to either plant or not torment p..y and concentrate on PAK YES, and 160- exclusively upgrade
      2. Antidote 8 January 2020 12: 57 New
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        What is the point of resuming production of 160 if this should replace all the bombers from 22?
        1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 13: 08 New
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          Well then! Many are asking this question.
        2. kjhg 8 January 2020 13: 19 New
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          Quote: Antidote
          What is the point of resuming production of 160 if this should replace all the bombers from 22?

          Can you imagine when PAK YES will take off, pass all the tests, begin to enter the army, and how many substantial numbers will replace the existing long-range and strategic bombers? It will take twenty years, at least. What to fly all these years?
        3. Aviator_ 8 January 2020 14: 11 New
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          Production is due to the backlog remaining by the beginning of the 90s
        4. Nikolaevich I 8 January 2020 14: 43 New
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          Quote: Antidote
          What is the point of resuming production of 160 if this should replace all the bombers from 22?

          "Guaranteed" PAK DA should replace the Tu-160, Tu-95, Tu-22M ... I think that the Tu-160M2 (or Tu-160M ​​... figs, in the "light of the last names", you can figure it out without a pint!) and "at PAK YES"! Is it really bad? Will complement "friend of friend" ... Supersonic (!) Tu-160M ​​(M2) and subsonic "Tu-21" .... fellow
        5. Mityay65 8 January 2020 15: 28 New
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          Quote: Antidote
          if this one should replace all the bombers from 22?

          There were no official statements or announcements of the appointment of PAK YES. But over 9 years there was a lot of info silo produced by various publications and commentators. And everyone interprets the appointment of PAK YES differently.
          It seems to me that the main purpose of PAK YES is bomber (carrier RK long-range), real replacement for the Tu-95, which should be written off before 42 g.
          And the secondary task is a naval strike aircraft, a carrier of anti-ship missiles, and a long-range reconnaissance in the interests of the Navy. The second is also a replacement for the Tu-95.
          That is, IMHO, for PAK YES the task of replacing 22 and 160 is not posed.
      3. Genry 8 January 2020 13: 57 New
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        Quote: Sky Strike fighter
        Production NK-32-02 has already been deployed.

        After the test of the installation party, the military rejected them and the progress froze. It seems like they started to build a new workshop for their production, but for now ...
        1. D16
          D16 9 January 2020 19: 33 New
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          They cannot pass bench tests in any way. The military has nothing to do with it.
      4. 75 Sergey 8 January 2020 15: 24 New
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        NK-32 at its core, is yesterday, and you are predicting the future for him.
        They tear Russia to pieces, squeezing the last juices (resources) out of it and only a blind or interested person does not see this.
        Only the Rosguard is developing with us - to suppress popular unrest.
        1. Vadim237 8 January 2020 15: 54 New
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          Do not write any garbage.
          1. Artemiy_2 8 January 2020 15: 59 New
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            Yes, they write one manual
  9. parusnik 8 January 2020 12: 43 New
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    Oh PAK YES how many years they’ve been talking about what kind of armament will be, what engine, what’s going to be put into service, sometimes you start to wonder whether it’s a myth or reality? ... And as in the fairy tale, New King’s dress: the dress has a special property, only its silly will not see ... and tailors demanded more and more money for its production ...
    1. Rushnairfors 8 January 2020 13: 00 New
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      Yes, it will be, perhaps even in the near future, you just need to decide: either build 50 swans and then PAK YES yours is not needed, or stop fooling around and engage in a new plane, and all the available samziki of the Tu firm (22m3, 95ms and 160) to upgrade in order to increase their characteristics (primarily due to new weapons) before the start of mass production of this "wunderwaffle", which, of course, has no analogues
      1. parusnik 8 January 2020 13: 32 New
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        For me, they developed it silently, built it silently, and then announced that the aircraft of this or that generation had entered the arsenal of the N-th regiment of the Airborne Forces, they possess this, surpass all foreign counterparts in all respects ... And as it began, we will have, and it goes on .. Soon, we’ll be celebrating with a statement we will celebrate ...
    2. Sky strike fighter 8 January 2020 13: 05 New
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      So you first need to restore production from scratch, competencies on a new technological base, for which they began to restore production of the Tu-160, and then not out of the blue take up the production of PAK DA, but this is not an easy task and it is easy to swoop it so don’t crank. Again, the restoration of engine production, a new gas generator for the RF Product, which will take 5-7 years.
  10. Paul Siebert 8 January 2020 13: 31 New
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    More recently, on the Zvezda TV channel, they showed a program about this famous flying air laboratory based on the IL-76 from the series "Legendary Aircraft".
    If it came to testing in the laboratory, then the work on creating a promising bomber is beginning to "incarnate in metal."
    Good luck to our designers and testers!
  11. Zaurbek 8 January 2020 13: 34 New
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    It is more logical to put a “civilian” turbojet engine on such aircraft with a large resource. To serve airplanes for a long time ... but we do not have 1x22-25tn.
    1. D16
      D16 8 January 2020 14: 47 New
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      To cram it into a flying wing, an engine of limited diameter and, accordingly, with low bypass ratio is man-made. In a civilian with such a thrust, no one has such motors.
      1. Zaurbek 8 January 2020 16: 45 New
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        On B11 they put something like a turbojet engine from F35
        1. D16
          D16 9 January 2020 07: 35 New
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          On B11 they put something like a turbojet engine from F35

          If you are talking about B-2, then there is F-404 without afterburners, as on B-1. If about the B-21, then nothing surprising. True, it is not yet known how many engines there will be and what its weight characteristics are.
    2. Genry 9 January 2020 11: 27 New
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      Quote: Zaurbek
      It is more logical to put a “civilian” turbojet engine on such aircraft with a large resource.

      The military has its own additional (military) requirements: portability of the impact of the blast wave and work with small internal destruction (survivability) and .....
      This does not deny the need for new advances in materials and construction.
      Of course, there may be options for peaceful and military use, where there will be a priority in efficiency or short-term increased reliability.
      1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 11: 50 New
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        Strategic bombers are unlikely .... especially stealth. Moreover, modern turbojet engines are very reliable.
        1. Genry 9 January 2020 12: 33 New
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          Quote: Zaurbek
          modern turbojet engines are very reliable

          In greenhouse conditions, when there is no overload from the shock wave and the runway curve (damaged) and maximum power use (speed / time requirements for the assignment).
          Civil engines have a large resource but very low survivability. They have a much more complex design for the sake of profitability. For example, to achieve compression in the combustion chamber up to 60 (economy = pressure + temperature) 14 compressor stages and 12 turbine stages are used. And this bandura should spin furiously with minimal gaps. The smallest negative cutting factors reduce their reliability. Flew on a volcano - overhaul, a spatula cracked - a complete replacement.
          The catastrophe of yesterday with a Ukrainian plane in Iran is indicative. Two seconds before the fall, he just exploded the engine, which caught fire during takeoff. For a military aircraft, this is unacceptable. Let everything fuse there, but the explosion is unacceptable, especially when armed with nuclear weapons.
          1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 12: 49 New
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            What is the damaged gdp for strategists?
            1. Genry 9 January 2020 13: 00 New
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              Quote: Zaurbek
              What is the damaged gdp for strategists?

              GDP - Putin? bully
              And you don’t know the options? Even in peacetime, after training flights of long-range engines with turbojet engines and the like, the runway is just with torn pieces of concrete the size of a concrete slab.
              1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 13: 09 New
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                In Sheremetyevo did not see such .... although the load there on the runway is much higher. If you do not service the strip, then something else will happen. The plane will cost not $ 100 million, but on the plates we will save. Then the chassis must be done as on IL76. And this is overweight.
                1. Genry 9 January 2020 13: 11 New
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                  Quote: Zaurbek
                  In Sheremetyevo did not see such .... although the load there on the runway is much higher.

                  There are no pressures and temperatures. You heard the sound of the engine of the Su-24, Tu-22, .... This is a continuous explosion. belay
                  1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 13: 21 New
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                    We are talking about subsonic aircraft ... stuffed with electronics and rockets with electronics ...
                    1. Genry 9 January 2020 13: 25 New
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                      Quote: Zaurbek
                      We are talking about subsonic aircraft ... stuffed with electronics and rockets with electronics ...

                      We are talking about a military aircraft, which will be based or jump from a military runway (or any ...) and may be subjected to various influences.
                      Current wars begin with provocations, sabotage, ....
                      1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 13: 42 New
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                        No. We are talking about a strategist who will be based in the rear .... often fly for long patrols (This is not even a B-52 that can bomb), hang in the air for a long time and economically, be exploited for a long time ....
                        We often cross rhinos and bulldogs. Then the hell is that.
                      2. Genry 9 January 2020 13: 59 New
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                        Quote: Zaurbek
                        No. We are talking about a strategist who will be based in the rear .... often fly on long patrols

                        Strategists do not patrol !!!
                        Their task is in the air until the realization of their weapons (literally - a one-time action). They can be periodically relocated from place to place or for training.
                        For patrolling (which is regular work with costs and without military operations), you can use a special aircraft based on a suitable civilian aircraft (IL-114, Be-200, ..., SSZh-R, Tu-213, MS-21, Il -86/96, ...).
                      3. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 14: 24 New
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                        Strategists are in turn in the air (during a dangerous period) in the launch area of ​​the Kyrgyz Republic ..... for hours and on schedule ..... and new strategists should be ready for conventional use, and this increases the resource requirements and visibility.
                      4. Genry 9 January 2020 14: 40 New
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                        Quote: Zaurbek
                        Strategists take turns in the air (during a dangerous period) in the launch area of ​​the Kyrgyz Republic.

                        What is the criterion of a dangerous period? Now what period? Can you expect a hit ....?
                        What can be the queue with a fixed (limited) number of strategic weapons?
                        Strategists are involved only in case of a clear or alleged enemy attack and will fly (with refueling) until fully completed .....
                        Quote: Zaurbek
                        and new strategists should be ready for conventional use

                        For this there are long-range and frontline bombers.
                      5. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 15: 57 New
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                        We look at the USA ... they are the standard.
                      6. Genry 9 January 2020 15: 59 New
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                        Quote: Zaurbek
                        USA ... they are the benchmark

                        The standard of what? Slander and stupidity ...
  • Ryaruav 8 January 2020 13: 52 New
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    this, by and large, doesn’t need anyone (an example of the A-2 Amer’s highly effective bomber), when our native microelement base will become globally competitive and not Uzbekiston, then I’ll say Russia has confirmed its historical significance
    1. D16
      D16 9 January 2020 07: 15 New
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      example v-2 amersky high-performance bomber

      B-2 is a completely wrong example. He is never a strategic missile carrier.
      that’s when our native microelement base will become globally competitive

      Never. Our military-industrial complex is too specific a consumer who will pay three times the price, and civilians will buy everything they need in China. It is cheaper there for completely objective reasons. Even the introduction of horse duties will not solve anything. But from this the importance of Russia will not decrease.
      1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 13: 46 New
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        A modern airplane is expensive ... take the Su57 as an example ... Why did you get the idea that PAK YES will be cheap. completely new aircraft and turbojet engines new. crammed with electronics.
        1. D16
          D16 9 January 2020 19: 17 New
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          I did not write that it should be cheap. The V-2, to put it mildly, is not the most long-range missile. In order to hit something on our territory, you will have to substitute for interceptors and air defense. JASSM-ER is better in this regard, but they fly high and are visible far. IMHO crawling a strategist on a belly with free-falling atomic bombs is stupid and fraught with consequences. No other options are foreseen. Our X-102 is completely safe for shelling enemy territory with nuclear ammunition.
          1. Zaurbek 9 January 2020 19: 25 New
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            Therefore, why take off from a bombed lane and have a special turbojet engine?
            1. D16
              D16 9 January 2020 20: 07 New
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              What is the "special turbojet engine"? If you voiced such a short time, then it will most likely be NK-32 without an afterburner. 2NK32 x 14t.s. = 4F100 x 7t.s. NK-56 stupidly does not fit into it. There, the bypass ratio is 4,9 versus 1,4 for the NK-32.
  • Sergey Valov 8 January 2020 14: 31 New
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    Comments and questions to the author:
    “Work stably at air temperatures from minus 60 to plus 50 ° C and be resistant to the effects of the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion. The service life of the PAK DA engine is determined to be 12 years (subsequently it can be increased to 21 years) "
    - to write about air temperature is like writing nothing, it is like that of almost any aircraft engine.
    - as for the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion, this is nonsense, or illiteracy, I suggest a choice.
    - about the service life, dense illiteracy.
    “Ground mining will begin at the end of 2020 and should be completed by the end of 2021” - are they going to meet the deadline for a year? Oh well.
    "It is assumed that the PAK DA will be subsonic" - and the flying wing may be supersonic ???
    “Air-to-air missiles - this decision should allow the aircraft to fly unaccompanied” - another stupid thing. The external suspension of air-to-air missiles will sharply increase the EPR and reduce the flight range. Possible, of course, internal, but it is very exotic. But the most interesting thing in another, short-range missiles are unreasonable, medium and long-range heavy and bulky. All of them are optimized for work in the front hemisphere, but what if the adversary decides to go behind? PAK YES to start a maneuverable air battle?
    “According to the source, a contract has now been concluded to finalize the military transport Il-76.” “A flying laboratory based on IL-76 will be finalized to conduct flight tests of the engine of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA),” Interfax quotes the source as saying. ”
    Does the author understand that these are mutually exclusive actions? - either use the existing LL, or create a new one, but immediately under the proposed test object.
    “Tests will begin at the end of 2020” - for 25 years of test work about testing aircraft engines have not been heard.
    1. Genry 9 January 2020 17: 20 New
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      Quote: Sergey Valov
      Comments and questions to the author: ....

      The level of the writer in the technical field is a common chronic illness.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      as for the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion, it’s nonsense, or illiteracy,

      Why? A shock wave, an electromagnetic pulse can easily destroy both the mechanics and electronics of the turbojet engine. But it can happen.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      “Ground mining will begin at the end of 2020 and should be completed by the end of 2021” - are they going to meet the deadline for a year? Oh well.

      Well, there is little new / good, only chopped off tails.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      “Air-to-air missiles - this decision should allow the aircraft to fly unaccompanied” - another stupid thing.

      No, not stupid. It's just that not everything is said and you do not know. They can also fasten the laser system.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      The external suspension of air-to-air missiles will sharply increase the EPR and reduce the flight range. Possible, of course, internal, but it is very exotic.

      After internal missiles, the Su-57 and Tu-22 drum systems have no problems.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      But the most interesting thing in another, short-range missiles are unreasonable, medium and long-range heavy and bulky. All of them are optimized for work in the front hemisphere, but what if the adversary decides to go behind?

      Reasonability, in this case, is the ability to flexibly perform the task, which is laid down in the list of functions of the missiles used.
      Short-range perfectly go to the rear hemisphere and it's been a long time. They don’t even have to fly far - the attacker will fly by himself.
      Medium range - to actively counter frontal interception.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      “According to the source, a contract has now been concluded to finalize the military transport Il-76.” “A flying laboratory based on IL-76 will be finalized to conduct flight tests of the engine of a promising long-range aviation complex (PAK DA),” Interfax quotes the source as saying. ”
      Does the author understand that these are mutually exclusive actions? - either use the existing LL, or create a new one, but immediately under the proposed test object.

      Here you simply find fault with the words, although the author correctly quoted the quotation without duplicating it.
      And this will be an additional IL-76 as LL, since it will be used for a long time to test modifications of such engines.
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      “Tests will begin at the end of 2020” - for 25 years of test work about testing aircraft engines have not been heard.

      In the sense of "testing", like in schoolchildren?
      This is one of the stages of the tests, which allows you to take the characteristics of the engine in real conditions (pressure, temperature, overload, speed and free-stream vector), which is impossible to do under the conditions of a ground stand.
      1. Sergey Valov 9 January 2020 21: 51 New
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        "This is a common chronic disease" - alas, we read.
        "Why? A shock wave, an electromagnetic pulse can easily destroy both the mechanics and electronics of the turbojet engine. But it can happen, ”I said, it’s almost impossible to protect the engine from a nuclear explosion, and it’s not necessary. The only defense is to stay away from the explosion. The shock wave is more likely to break the glider, and not the engine. Similarly, EMP is more likely to disable aircraft avionics.
        “No, it’s not stupid” - I admit that I don’t know the closed development.
        “After the internal missiles, the Su-57 and Tu-22 drum systems have no problems” - exotic, does not mean impossible. There are two options: either to hang up a rocket in a bomb bay, eating volumes of strike weapons, which in my opinion is unreasonable, or to make small rocket compartments, which in my opinion is exotic, I have not heard of this before.
        “They don’t have to fly far - the attacker will fly by himself.
        Medium-range - to actively counter frontal interception ”- itself may not reach using a medium / long-range missile. The average range is dramatically different dimensions and missiles and guidance systems. This is a direct path to the escort fighter in the strategist’s corps.
        “This is one of the stages of testing, which allows you to take the characteristics of the engine in real conditions” - testing, this is a tough confirmation of the actual characteristics stated. Neither excess nor failure is allowed. In real life in aviation, I did not have to deal with this. Testing is getting real characteristics.
        1. Genry 10 January 2020 13: 15 New
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          Quote: Sergey Valov
          The shock wave is more likely to break the glider, and not the engine.

          The glider of the military Tu-shek is reinforced with a titanium beam - it can withstand a close explosion of air defense and a shock wave from nuclear weapons.
          And for engines, these shakes are fraught with the engagement of the blades or the destruction of the turbine supports (like an iron ball in a glass jar).
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          hang a rocket in a bomb bay, eating volumes of strike weapons, which in my opinion is unreasonable, or make small rocket compartments, which in my opinion is exotic, I have not heard of this before.

          The “flying wing” has very large internal volumes. The internal suspension improves aerodynamics and visibility, which is implemented in the Su-57 and is even easier to execute several times larger aircraft.
          For striking weapons a lot of space is not required - 2 missiles max. The remaining volumes can be used for self-defense.
          Adding a fighter, for cover - it is unrealistic who will pull such a range.
          1. Sergey Valov 10 January 2020 16: 08 New
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            “The glider of the military Tu-shek is reinforced with a titanium beam - it can withstand a close explosion of air defense and a shock wave from nuclear weapons.
            And for engines, these shakes are fraught with the engagement of the blades or the destruction of the turbine bearings (like an iron ball in a glass jar) ”- under a titanium beam you probably mean the center section. Correct if not so. So this center section is made of titanium not at all for reinforcing the glider by the criterion of minimum weight for a given strength, and is designed solely to fulfill the function of being the docking unit of the rotary wing consoles. Shaking the engine will not lead to any engagement of the blades, it is more likely that the engine itself will tear it off the attachment points. But the support of the turbines really can also not stand it.
            The internal volumes of the “flying wing” are indeed much larger, but no one canceled the power set, in this case longitudinal, and in order to make the hatch of the required length, it is necessary to strengthen the wing with all the consequences.
            A lot of space is just needed for strike weapons, and there is always not enough of it, it’s not because of a good life that they use semi-sunken suspension options, drum launchers, folding planes of cruise missiles, bomb cartridges, etc. For self-defense, there is always not enough space and weight.
            “Adding a fighter, for cover - it’s unrealistic who will pull such a range” - you don’t understand me, increasing the share of self-defense weapons on a bomber is gradually turning it from a bomber to a long-range escort fighter. Allies in WWII indulged in this a bit.
            1. Genry 10 January 2020 18: 30 New
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              Quote: Sergey Valov
              So this center section is made of titanium not at all for reinforcing the glider by the criterion of minimum weight for a given strength, and is designed solely to fulfill the function of being the docking unit of the rotary wing consoles.

              Somehow you need a function, but not strength.
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              Shaking the engine will not cause any blade engagement

              The blast wave should not be compared with a shake during landing.
              There is a problem even with small loads.

              Quote: Sergey Valov
              the power set, in this case longitudinal, has not been canceled by anyone, and in order to make the hatch of the required length, you have to strengthen the wing with all the consequences.

              The wing is wide, so let the spars go past the hatches (in fact, I have nothing to do with this business, so the problems are not mine) ....
              There are short-range air-to-air missiles R-74 and new medium-range (almost) missiles are being developed, with a length of less than 3 m for indoor installation .....

              Quote: Sergey Valov
              A lot of space is needed for an impact weapon.

              This is if used as a strategist.
              But the same aircraft (with an additional letter) can be used for tactical operations behind the front line. Then you will have only one goal. After your unmasking, you will simply roll back (and fight back).
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              increasing the proportion of self-defense weapons on a bomber, gradually transforming it from a bomber into a long-range fighter

              Well, do not go too far ... Means of self-defense do not make it such and have always been, albeit others.
              1. Sergey Valov 10 January 2020 20: 13 New
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                “Somehow you need a function but strength is not” - the center section is calculated according to the expected conditions / flight modes. It can be made of any strength, but this will mean a heavy structure.
              2. Sergey Valov 10 January 2020 20: 28 New
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                “There is a problem even with small loads” - right, the only question is reasonable strength, you can provide any, but overweight design.
                “The wing is wide, therefore, letting the spars past the hatches (in fact, I have nothing to do with this matter, so the problems are not mine)” - but I’m an expert, so I say, you can let the spars past the hatches, the stringers will not work, therefore, for preserving the strength of the structure is overtightened.
                “But the same aircraft (with an additional letter) can be used for tactical operations behind the front line. Then you will have only one goal. After your unmasking, you simply roll off (and fight back) ”- for tactical operations, use a similar aircraft, it’s the same as hammering nails with a microscope. Imagine a post as a tactical bomber Tu 95. Remember how the use of Tu 22 in the war with Georgia in 2008 ended.
                “Well, do not go too far ... The means of self-defense do not make it such and have always been, let others be” - of course the means of self-defense have always been and will always be, the only question is a reasonable balance with the means of the main purpose.
                1. Genry 11 January 2020 15: 41 New
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                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  center section is calculated according to the expected conditions / flight conditions.

                  Compare the carrying capacity of military aircraft with their closest civilian counterparts and immediately understand how heavy they are - this is due to the military's strength requirements (with a large number of accidents and missile hits, military aircraft gliders do not crumble in the air and often reach the remaining engines).
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  stringers will not work, therefore, to maintain strength, the structure will be overtightened.

                  So it turns out that it’s really possible .... And the advantage has always been the result of compromises for additional features and conveniences. Even painting gives an advantage of about 100kg.
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  Post imagine a tactical bomber Tu 95.

                  Then the choice of basic military aircraft was small. There were different Tu-95 models ... and under free-falling bombs. It was even made anti-submarine by the Tu-142.
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  Remember how the use of Tu 22 in the war with Georgia in 2008 ended.

                  He was a scout and was engaged in photography directly over the territory of Georgia. And it was outdated in terms of self-defense - there was no elementary electronic warfare. The Su-34 tested there corrected the situation.
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  the only question is a reasonable balance with the means of the main destination.

                  And how do you imagine a subsonic plane chasing supersonic aircraft to destroy them?
                  1. Sergey Valov 11 January 2020 17: 49 New
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                    “Military aircraft gliders do not crumble” - the glider does not crumble not as a result of destruction by warhead fragments, but as a result of overloads arising from a random fall. Aircraft are usually struck by warhead fragments incapacitating system elements. Direct hits of missiles and shells are very rare.
                    “Even painting gives an advantage” - paint is not an advantage, it is part of the weight of the aircraft. Regarding the advantage - it arises, by and large, in two cases - insufficient qualification of the designers, the second - the forced deterioration of the mass characteristics of the aircraft at the request of the customer to fulfill its specific requirements.
                    “He was a scout and was engaged in photography directly over the territory of Georgia” - it was a scout of a different level, it was quite possible to use a smaller plane.
                    “And how do you imagine a subsonic plane chasing after supersonic aircraft for their extermination” - you don’t have to chase anyone, you have to protect your outfit.
                    I repeat, the really possible, if not all, then very much, the question is whether it is advisable.
                    1. Genry 11 January 2020 18: 13 New
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                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      the glider does not fall apart as a result of damage by warhead fragments, but as a result of overloads arising from a random fall.

                      This is for civilian aircraft ... Remember the crash of the Tu-144 at Le Bourget? But with the Tu-160 this is simply impossible. And a rocket explosion gives not only a cloud of fragments, but also a shock wave, the explosive effect of which is much worse than point destruction. Boeing 777 in the Donbas from a rocket explosion in the cockpit area, fell apart and crumbled until the fall ....
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      paint is not an advantage, it is part of the weight of the aircraft

                      Accordingly, the weapon compartments are also a necessary part of the aircraft.
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      it was a scout of a different level, it was quite possible to use a smaller plane.

                      It was a scout originally built to order. Instead of a bomb bay stuffed with optical equipment and multispectral cameras.
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      Yes, do not chase anyone, you must protect your outfit.

                      Then it will not be a fighter but a flying fortress.
                      1. Sergey Valov 11 January 2020 18: 21 New
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                        Fear God, what a shock wave there, defeat solely from metal.
                        “Accordingly, the weapons compartments are also a necessary part of the aircraft” - of course, but you can’t do without paint, but without additional compartments you can.
                        “It was a scout originally built by order” - right, but for tasks of a different level, a tactical scout had to be used here.
                        “Then it will not be a fighter but a flying fortress” - what to call it - a question of terminology, but a branch of a dead end.
                      2. Genry 11 January 2020 18: 50 New
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                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        Fear God, what a shock wave there, defeat solely from metal.

                        “Metal” only made rare holes in the casing, most of which were added during the collection of debris. The main destruction occurred from a high-explosive impact (torn force elements).
                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        here a tactical scout was to be used.

                        The reconnaissance Tu-22 was specifically imprisoned for this task. Give your version of the then existing reconnaissance based on a military aircraft.
                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        what to call is a question of terminology, but the branch is dead end.

                        I didn’t wrap it here.
                      3. Genry 11 January 2020 18: 51 New
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                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        Of course, but without paint it is impossible, and without additional compartments it is possible.

                        Shashechki you or go?
                      4. Sergey Valov 11 January 2020 19: 58 New
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                        You are considering a bomber or "and the dude is a dude"
  • 75 Sergey 8 January 2020 15: 47 New
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    It’s better to tell us what’s wrong with the NK-65, is it the PD-30 and the product 80?
    1. mark1 8 January 2020 16: 59 New
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      The basis is the same, but with a gearbox and, accordingly, with a large diameter and thrust, it has nothing to do with PAK YES. They will talk about the "Elephant" go mod. An-124, then ask. (But everything is dull)
  • ODERVIT 8 January 2020 16: 21 New
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    Of course, everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to speak out. Democracy, freedom of speech and so on ... At the same time, I understand that the study of aviation and applied sciences has not passed without a trace. There is such a theory of gas turbine engines. Not many people know about its existence. Against its background, the resistance of materials, building mechanics "rest". Therefore, the matches of many members of the forum are fun to read.
    1. mark1 8 January 2020 17: 01 New
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      Maybe you should occupy yourself with an educational mission and not keep secret knowledge under wraps?
    2. IL-18 8 January 2020 18: 05 New
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      Quote: ODERVIT
      There is such a theory

      Theory is not always confirmed by practice hi