What were Soviet tanks afraid of? Memories of designer Leonid Kartsev


Tank T-72V3M


“I served and operated both of these machines and I will say that this is not so. The T-62 was a dead end in development, and it could not surpass the T-55 in any ... specified indicator. "
svp67 (Sergey)


Designers tell. It so happened historically that at one time I was invited to edit one of the books of the authors of the Kirov factory about those tanks that they produced, and this gave me a lot of very interesting information. Then they were invited to the editorial board of the journal "Technology and Armaments". This post, of course, was purely nominal, for the list in the output of the journal, and I wrote my articles there on a common basis, so I continued to write. However, there was a preference - a free subscription to this magazine. And it published very interesting memoirs of our designers and aircraft engineers, and rocket launchers, and tankers. That is, people who cooked in the cauldron of their business in the most direct way. I was especially interested in the memoirs of L.N. Kartseva, chief designer and creators tank T-72. There is a lot of everything in them, and not always specific, and related to the topic, so their very close literary retelling is presented to the attention of VO readers. So to say, information about what I sometimes rely on as an author of certain materials, drawing my own conclusions. My remarks and explanations are also present in the text. But what without this: they are needed to show what conclusions can be reached by reading these memoirs.

Treasured the brand of the plant


One of the problems of our Soviet national economy as a whole and in particular factories (both military and producing peaceful products) were the so-called nonsuns. Their motto was the significant phrase: "You are the master, not the guest, take away even a nail." However, Kartsev himself wrote about this a little differently. From time to time, an exhibition of “objects” seized by his guards at the checkpoint was arranged at his factory. And there they came across homemade pistols, and revolvers, and knives, and pistons with piston rings, and many other homemade products; moreover, the pistols, both in design and in the quality of their manufacture, were the best in the field. Once, even a sealed enclosure to a motorcycle stroller, made very carefully, was tried to be taken out of the factory. A seven-ton hammer worked in the workshop where it was banged, riveting only one detail - the axle for railway cars, and then they made a stroller on you! And then the factory director, under Kartsev, turned to the shop manager and said that, if I had given you the task of making such a stroller, you would have asked for at least 50 designers, technologists, in addition to the staff ... ”And here - once , two and you're done! And what is this talking about? But only that in Soviet times, his own shirt was closest to the body, and that you could work for yourself much more efficiently than for society.

By the way, Kartsev writes that the directors of the plant were constantly asking: why is he at risk of introducing new machines? To this he replied that, firstly, he valued the plant’s brand, he wanted to be ahead of Kharkov in tanks, and besides, otherwise he would not be able to economically keep the plant afloat.

“Okunev’s last phrase needs clarification,” Kartsev wrote further, and explained it in such a way that until 1965 the Stalinist system of government operated in the industry, worked clearly and yielded positive results. “Then every year in February the production norms were tightened by 15% by directive. If for the manufacture of any part they paid, for example, one ruble, then from March 1 already 85 kopecks, and next year 72 kopecks, etc. ” One of his colleagues joked about the next reduction in prices: “I have been working at the plant for many years, the norms are being tightened every year, now the plant has to pay extra for tanks, and not get money.”

Therefore, in order to make a profit, the factory tried to reduce the labor intensity of production, introducing ever newer and more productive equipment or completely “Soviet” laying in the norms an extra “fat”, so that later there would be something to tighten. However, this is wrong. In fact, this same "fat" is nothing more than a direct deception of its own state of workers and peasants, the Soviet people and "universal justice." And what did such a postscript policy lead to? L. Kartsev gives an example: “the laboriousness of manufacturing T-55 and T-62 tanks was almost the same, and due to an improvement in the combat characteristics of the latter, its price was 15% higher than that of the T-55 tank." But this is wrong! Manufacturing plant weapons should be based on actual labor costs, and not which product is "better", but which is "worse." Moreover, the approach to lowering prices with the aim of introducing a new technique is incorrect. We need a scientific calculation of increasing labor productivity based on the introduction of new technology, a plan for this calculation, since it was planning that was the foundation of our society, and a plan - new equipment. And already after their application would have yielded results, it would have been possible to reduce prices, since this would not have affected the workers' salaries. This is the only possible approach in a socially oriented state.

It is interesting that L. Kartsev liked the introduction of the economic councils, and that is why.

“With the introduction of these new regional governance structures, we immediately felt a big difference with the former ministries, in which swagger, arrogance and red tape flourished.” But the economic councils liked him for his accessibility. That is, somehow ... "at home" they worked, without this very red tape and other things, that's even how. In the Sverdlovsk economic council, at first there was no access control at all. And they introduced him for one “important reason”: that outsiders should not go into the dining room of the economic council. ”

Moreover, Kartsev himself in his memoirs repeatedly critical of N.S. Khrushchev, but here is his brainchild, as the economic councils, as you see, the chief designer of tanks liked.

According to Kartsev, economic councils allowed the creation of enterprises of various industries in one region. This has accelerated the sharing of best practices. As a result, it turned out that the factories of our Sverdlovsk State Economic Council alone were able to manufacture and fully equip any tank ... But the main thing, in his opinion, were new people, production specialists who came to them. And he writes that he was very disappointed when in 1965, after the removal of Khrushchev, the economic councils dissolved and revived the structure of managing the national economy from a single center.

And here is his opinion (as the chief designer) about the activities of the so-called leading industry institutions. How three of them functioned, he knew especially well. They themselves were not directly involved in the development of design documentation for new machines before introducing them into production. Their main task, according to Kartsev, was completely different, namely, to please everyone in the line ministry up to the very last official. Moreover, any orders of local party bodies should be unconditionally followed. The main thing was to find out “where the wind is blowing”, and then bring the “scientific” base to any idea that the higher authorities expressed. But the worst thing was that they, like vacuum cleaners, pulled talented personnel from industry.

For example, such “wonderful, talented designers as I. Bushnev, N. Izosimov, Yu. Gancho, A. Skornyakov, I. Khovanov, S. Lorenzo and others” left the Kartsev design bureau for a tank research institute. eyes, while others simply became drunk with boredom. That is, people who could benefit the state by falling into this “administrative swamp” ceased to do this, but ... they received regular salaries.

He bothered the "tankers" and our Soviet life. So, in the summer of 1969, two Object 172 tanks were transported from Nizhny Tagil to Central Asia. Well, of course, knowing that there are refrigerators on sale that for some reason were absent in Nizhny Tagil, the plant’s chief gave the money to purchase them to the chief of the train. We bought 65 refrigerators, covered with a tarp and drove.

But it turned out that the commandant of one of the stations, examining the train, looked under the tarp, saw these refrigerators and immediately called OBKhSS. As a result, an echelon arriving from Central Asia with tanks was not allowed into the plant, it was kept “under arrest”, and employees who donated money to the refrigerators were alternately summoned for interrogation “where necessary” for a month and a half. They did not find crime, but they made people nervous and delayed work on tanks.

“I have never bowed to anyone”


In the process of creating new tanks things were constantly happening, not just curious, but even such that it was impossible to give them a decent definition. Kartsev was appointed chairman of the commission for the acceptance of the layout of the new tank model of the Kirov Plant. One of the remarks was this: the size of the tower roof does not allow to put hatches for the crew, as expected, that is, its axis across the tower. The Kirovites, however, found a way out: they set them, deployed 90 degrees. It is clear, it seems, not even to a professional, which is uncomfortable. You do not have to be an engineer to notice and understand this. And one more thing - military affairs does not suffer inconvenience. But ... but!

When Kartsev indicated this, the chief designer of Kirovsky replied that the size of the hatch exactly corresponds to GOST. Kartsev had to ask: “Nikolay Sergeyevich, is the door in your office made in accordance with GOST?” He, of course, answered: “Yes.” It was then that Kartsev invited him to turn the door 90 degrees, and exit through it ... As a result, the layout was not approved. But it was obvious from the very beginning. But yesterday’s schoolchildren didn’t do it!

Further more interesting. In 1974, the General Staff ordered the Nizhny Tagil R&D to determine the combat effectiveness of tanks. Moreover, the T-55 tank was taken as a sample, the efficiency coefficient of which was taken as a unit. Two industrial research institutes and the Military Academy of Armored Forces participated in this work. Understood the odds for two years. Moreover, Kartsev, although he was the chief designer of the plant in Nizhny Tagil, at first did not participate in this work, since he did not see productivity in it. Anyway, nothing changed in tanks.

Finally, the General Staff demanded a summary table of this “important work”. To speed up the work, Kartsev proposed not to count the hundredths, but to stop on the tenths. And what happened? The coefficient of the T-62 tank became 1,1 and the same was for everyone else. Then Kartsev, who was supposed to be responsible for this table, asked the audience if they knew how the Pope was chosen in the Vatican? Nobody knew, and then he said that he himself would go to dinner, and they would only block and release them when they agreed on all the points. Needless to say, everything was agreed while the chief dined. True, it remained to determine the coefficients for the promising tank.

And then Kartsev came to the rescue again история"When Suvorov took Ishmael, he said, they informed him that the tsarina wanted to know how many Turks were killed?"And he ordered:"Write more, is it a pity that these Basurmans?""So we will do the same, - the main one was found. - Let’s take the largest numbers of all those proposed, because no one knows what kind of tank it will be". And everyone immediately agreed with this proposal and immediately went to dinner. Because tanks are tanks, and there is something you really want right now. An hour later, the table was already printed. Everyone signed it. And Kartsev went to Babajanyan, and he immediately approved it. That's how the two-year work was completed on just one especially insignificant piece of paper!

No less indicative is the story of tanks from Syria. It was in the winter of 1978. A complaint was received from Syria about poorly executed tank repairs that were being repaired at our repair plants. As always, they immediately gathered a group of specialists and sent to understand. Kartsev arrived as a member of a group in Kiev, where these tanks were being repaired, and he saw that the workers carefully repaired the heater, but some pipes were plugged at the radiator.

Syrian T-62

A friend of Kartsev worked at the enterprise, and when he expressed his comments to him, he explained that everything was done according to the instructions.

“I asked him to give me this instruction. It was done incorrectly: the column “allowed” lists parts and components of poorer quality than the main one, although according to the rules everything should be the other way around. I read the line “radiator”: in the main column - the 1st category, in the column “allowed” - the 2nd category. And so on all the details and nodes. If you assemble a tank from parts according to the column “allowed”, it will not budge at all. ” As a result, Kartsev asked a friend to redo everything “as a friend,” and when he returned from a business trip, he wrote in the report that the poor repair of the tanks delivered to Syria was guilty ... instructions issued by the department of the head of the tank troops. ”

Needless to say, no reaction to his paper was ever followed? After all, the boss cannot be wrong.

Kartsev said to one of the military representatives who had dragged out the terms of the business trip of several engineers, just not having put the signature on the necessary report on time:In response to your bullying, I’ll lock you up in this room and release you until you sign the report.! ”And it is clear that he immediately signed everything. But ... he immediately concocted a letter to the Central Committee of the CPSU, in which he accused Kartsev of statements that defamed N.S. Khrushchev, R.Ya. Malinovsky and some other leaders of the country. And besides, before sending it, he demanded to consider it at a meeting of the party committee of the plant.

In general, everyone, to the best of his imagination, can imagine what exactly was written and read at that meeting. Kartsev was given the floor, and he replied so bluntly that he did not agree with the technical line in tank construction, which is now supported by the apparatus of the CPSU Central Committee. But the person and Khrushchev, and Malinovsky, their lives, characters, and behavior, he does not care. Then a word was given to this military representative and he began to read out: "Such a date L.N. Kartsev said that R.Ya. Malinowski cannot be trusted even to nurse grandchildren". Well, then everything is the same.

It is good that one of the party committee members was found here and said that everyone knows Kartsev, that he is a direct and principled person, a patriot of both the factory and our country. But who is this ... How much did he save these notes? In general, everything ended well, but when Kartsev left that party committee meeting, he, as he writes, was simply thrown into a cold sweat. But what if all this happened in 1937? So honest, loyal to Soviet power then people died on denunciations of these!

It's funny that, according to Kartsev, it was the designers and technologists who were the most disadvantaged people in the workplace at that time. So, for 16 years of work as the chief designer, he never received a single award for the constant implementation of quarterly plans for the release of new equipment, not to mention the fact that these plans were constantly exceeded by the plant. And for a long time he did not even realize that these bonuses exist and that the factory administration of his enterprise receives them regularly. In addition, the T-54, T-55, T-62 tanks were licensed in many other countries, in addition, they were sold abroad. But none of the designers received a single penny for this promotion. But it was a question of millions of dollars and rubles received by the state, and from all this wealth it was possible to unfasten its creators at least a couple of percent ?!

Kartsev speaks extremely negatively about the history of the T-80 tank, when in mid-1976 the chief designer of the Kirov plant in Leningrad and a member of the Central Committee of the CPSU, N.S. Popov managed to convince the military and political leaders of the USSR that it was extremely important for us to adopt the T-80. ” Meanwhile, if we compare it with the T-64A and T-72 tanks that we already had, it turns out that he had the same weapons with them, similar indicators in terms of protection and maneuverability, but it is much larger (i.e., approximately 1,6–1,8 times) spent fuel per kilometer, and although its reserve on the tank was significantly increased, its direct range was reduced by 25–30%.

In addition, the T-80 used a fighting compartment taken from the T-64A tank. And it used vertical stacking of shots, which in a battle, according to Kartsev, reduced the survivability of the tank. Another drawback was the impossibility of direct communication of tankers who were in the tower with the driver, and especially his evacuation in case of injury. In general, this tank was more complex, cost more and was less reliable than the same T-64A, not to mention the T-72 tank.

T-80 Impressive leap, right? The leaders of the party and government felt the same way.

Production of the T-80 was started not in Leningrad, but at the Omsk plant, where the T-55 had previously been made. Meanwhile, according to Popov, another new tank will be ready in Kharkov. “These“ miracles, ”writes Kartsev,“ were primarily contributed by D.F. Ustinov, Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR L.V. Smirnov, Head of the Industrial Department of the Central Committee of the CPSU I.F. Dmitriev and other high-ranking officials with the inaction of L.I. Brezhnev. "

In addition to Kartsev’s words, we can add only the following, that hardly all these people were “spies” and “traitors”, “anti-Soviet and Russophobes”. It's just ... they saw it that way, thought it would be better for the country, and for the system, and for themselves. And did not see anything wrong with that! This became clear only later, but so far the fact that they were mistaken was certainly seen by many, but they could do absolutely nothing, including Kartsev himself.

As for the Kharkov T-64A tank (“Object 430”), according to Kartsev, the conceptual idea of ​​this led to the fact that this machine completely lacked development prospects. And the engine, and the running gear, and all its other components, and mechanisms did not have the necessary safety margin and worked to the limit of their capabilities. Due to the peculiarities of laying shots, the crew in it also had a hard time.

Kharkov T-64

Not so with the T-72, which with the T-64A had only one gun the same. Having been accepted for service on August 7, 1973, it was primarily designed for mass production at existing plants and used equipment. The crew living conditions have been improved. Significant reserves for modernization were laid in the tank, as well as the possibility of creating special purpose vehicles on its basis. Well, the fact that all this is exactly so, and not the praise of the designer to his own brainchild, confirms the experience of operating the T-72 in various countries of the world and that it was the most massive tank of the second half of the XNUMXth century.

Kartsev’s opinion on the reasons that caused 1991 is also interesting, although, of course, he considers them from his own familiar side. In his opinion, taking advantage of the fact that our tanks were relatively simple and cheap, "state leaders made rash decisions. ” “Tanks began to be produced in unreasonably large quantities. As a result, the labor of many thousands of people and large material means were spent in vain, which partly contributed to the collapse of the statesa".

“The country was at an impasse, climbed into colossal debts. The leaders of the state sometimes acted as Ellochka the cannibal from the novel by Ilf and Petrov “The Twelve Chairs”, which tried to copy the daughter of an American billionaire. ”

And then, judging by the fate of this chief designer, the “people of the top” simply did not forgive him his talent, conviction, and ... the correctness of his views. When the T-72 "went", the "Moor" was no longer needed, and he was transferred to one of those branch research institutes, whose activities he did not like. Apparently, he did not always politely speak about those whom he considered ... "not too smart" people. But the big bosses, especially in uniform, do not like this. But this part of his memoirs is especially revealing:

“I see satisfaction with my life only in the fact that I never bowed to anyone and did not seek out anyone, did not please anyone in power, did nothing against my conscience. Having never put up with humiliation of myself, I, being vested with administrative power over people, tried to do my best to not offend their human dignity in any way. ”

Wonderful words, isn't it?

Instead of an epilogue


And now, as a kind of epilogue, an example from ancient history will be given to the final paragraph of our story about man and tanks. It is also very revealing and interesting in its own way.

... the great Pericles dies. Around him gathered the best citizens of Athens, his friends, and began to decide how to honor his memory and what to write on his tombstones. One said that he put nine trophies in honor of his military victories, that is, he was a worthy commander; others - that he erected the Parthenon and the Propylaea, while others noted his high moral qualities and the authority of a politician. And then Pericles, about whom they thought he was unconscious, opens his eyes and says that all this, of course, is correct, but you, worthy Athenian men, have forgotten about the most important thing! You can imagine their embarrassment, because they somehow thought that he did not hear them. Finally, one of those present made up his mind and asked: “O glorious Pericles, say what you yourself consider to be your main merit to the fatherland. We went over everything! ”

And Pericles answered as few politicians of the past and present could answer this question. And he said this: “Having been in power in Athens for 14 years and possessing all its fullness, I ruled so wisely and carefully that not a single Athenian can say that it was my fault that he put on a black cloak of grief!” And everyone gathered decided that yes, all his other merits fade before this. And agreed with him!

References

Kartsev L.N. Memories of the chief designer of tanks. - Equipment and weapons. - 2008. No. 1-5, 8, 9, 11.
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  1. Odysseus 11 January 2020 07: 08 New
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    If I am not mistaken, citizen Shpakovsky, a former communist, former teacher of Marxism-Leninism, who taught Soviet people to love the party and Socialism? Why was he drawn to write about tanks? It’s clear that the Jude complex, and it’s necessary to survive in the Russian Federation, but the article about how badly and incorrectly the production of tanks was arranged in the USSR looks homerically funny. It’s better to say something about “repression,” “deficit,” or “terrible socialism.” There is at least some hope that the “suckers” will believe, at least some use for the plunder and exploitation of people.
    PS All this, of course, does not negate the existence of real problems in the USSR, the main of which, in fact, which led to his death, was the presence of such Jews in the party as Shpakovsky. When they stopped rebuffing and they seized the leadership in the party, then "perestroika" began. Let me remind you that it was she, and not the “wrong” production of tanks at all, that led the country to death, but its remnants to subsequent degradation.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2020 07: 32 New
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      . If I am not mistaken, citizen Shpakovsky, a former communist, former teacher of Marxism-Leninism, who taught Soviet people to love the party and Socialism? Why was he drawn to write about tanks?

      Let me supplement you. Vyacheslav Olegovich, among other things, is a laureate of two Soviet contests and precisely for tanks! Involved in one of the widely known magazine Tankov-Master. Author of at least three books (these are the ones that I have in my library) about Tanks! And what a "fig" citizen Shpakovsky suffered to write an article about tanks, based on the recollections of the chief designer of the Nizhny Tagil tank factory !!! request
      1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 08: 07 New
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        The level of books is really not very high, they are still nothing like overviews, but as soon as at least some kind of analysis is required, then the author does not take out the elementary, which, incidentally, is also evident in the article.
        1. kalibr 11 January 2020 09: 46 New
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          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          The level of books is really not very high, they are still nothing like overviews, but as soon as at least some kind of analysis is required, then the author does not take out the elementary, which, incidentally, is also evident in the article.

          For its time, Vladimir, and it was a "light in the window." When I made the first issue of my TANKOMASTER, no one even dared to print texts into it (!), So the fear in people was “how would it not work out”. Had the first issue WRITTING FROM HAND! The artist Igor Zeynalov wrote it calligraphically ... What analysis, what are you talking about? People wanted to see the Tiger banal from above and from behind, and I don’t even speak about Grant / Lee tanks - their 4-projections were completely delighted! People just had to “get enough” of information, and only then analyze something there. And that's what people wanted, they were given that. Supply is always in demand. And yes, each author has his own strengths and weaknesses. I have a strong point in this ability to popularize. The analysis - yes, it’s not mine (you have to take too many variables into account, but we don’t know them!), But ... you need to let others earn money. And then ... everything has its time!
          1. EvilLion 14 January 2020 10: 26 New
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            I probably already have the issue of “Youth Technique” for the 1973rd year, where there is both the “tiger”, and the E-100 and a number of VKs that remained prototypes. So I don’t really understand what made it so difficult for you to work and portray tanks.
            1. Sergey Sfiedu 24 February 2020 14: 31 New
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              Come on. In 1971, there were side projections of the Tiger and Panther. A few years later - a photo of Mouse. Yes, perhaps that's all. I read TM from cover to cover and I don’t remember anything worthwhile in these years on German technology - neither this magazine, nor any other. It was not accepted to write about the technique of the enemy.
      2. kalibr 11 January 2020 08: 48 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        suffered an article about tanks

        It happened because recently at VO this topic was just discussed. Where was the comment given in the form of an epigraph given here. I wrote it to the author, because I appreciate the opinion of those who tried everything myself, asked permission to use and received it. And then he retold some of Kartsev's memoirs. And this must be done, because in the end there is a result. At least people began to write this: "it does not cancel out the presence of real problems in the USSR." That is, it comes. Difficult, but comes. It will come a little more that the system itself was vicious, because it did not prevent it from getting to the top ... all sorts. And no one from below could stop them. That's all. And just the memories of Kartsev illustrate this well. Talent, clever, and he was pushed as soon as the urgent need had passed. It was uncomfortable! And how many such uncomfortable parted with life in general. And all this thanks to a system based on ... incorrect theory (albeit beautiful). However, the article “Victims of the Unfaithful by Theory” was already here. And to look for extremes among ordinary commies, as Odysseus does, is the height of idiocy (or not desire to think). Because if we did not follow the mainstream of the Central Committee, we would not have lasted a day there. It was enough to tell the students a "non-partisan" joke so that you would not tell him anymore.
        1. bang 11 January 2020 16: 48 New
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          It will come a little more that the system itself was vicious, because it did not prevent it from getting to the top ... all sorts. And no one from below could stop them. That's all.
          Do you know the immaculate system? Give an example.
          And so you only confirmed that ... Analysis - yes, this is not mine (you have to take into account too many variables, but we don’t know them!) ...
          1. kalibr 11 January 2020 18: 36 New
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            Do you know all the variable factors to do an accurate analysis? I don’t, therefore I don’t undertake. It would be stupidity and presumption not only on my part, but also on any other. In his book "Tanks unique and paradoxical" there is a whole chapter with the "analysis" of a specialist in this field and ... he made a poor prediction based on it. So I didn’t know everything ... but in ranks and uniform, “uncle”.
            And no vicious systems for today DO NOT EXIST in principle. The question is% perversity. And when he is a great system ... of that!
        2. Mazuta 12 January 2020 10: 52 New
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          "... That is, it comes. It’s hard, but it comes.
          It will come a little more that the system itself was vicious, because
          prevented getting to the top ... all sorts.
          And no one from below could stop them. That's all..."

          Thanks, it finally dawned on me ...
          It is you thus denouncing the perversity of the sov.system ?!
          And for "support", Kartsev’s quote?
          Convenient position! And, most importantly, "ideologically verified"!
          So still:Are you struggling with dissent in VO or with boredom in the chat ?!,
          judging by the title of the article, nevertheless, the second ...
        3. EvilLion 14 January 2020 10: 26 New
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          Show me a state where the system prevents anyone from getting on top. Well, that was a clear landmark.
      3. Technical engineer 11 January 2020 14: 50 New
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        However, here he writes more not about tanks, but how bad everything was in the USSR. Well, finally it’s bad. Probably the author keeps his nose in the wind)
        And about the weakness of the T-64 suspension and its futility. All ears buzzed. However, during the modernization, the T-64 tank grew in weight no less than the T-72, and there were no more problems with the suspension. So reality put everything in its place, and refuted the theory.
        1. kalibr 11 January 2020 18: 32 New
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          Quote: Technical Engineer
          Probably the author holds his nose in the wind

          Poor Kartsev!
          1. Svarog51 11 January 2020 19: 08 New
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            Vyacheslav hi With all due respect to Kartsev, as a designer of tanks - he is still a man. He participated not only in the creation of the T-72, but also as a designer - in the entire "undercover" struggle to promote precisely "his" brainchild. One way or another, his opinion is subjective. I understand him as a person who cares for the cause of his enterprise. But the engineers of Kharkov and Leningrad will say the same. Everyone will have their own truth. The fact that three MBTs were in service was their merit; they developed them. But the decisions were made by D.F.Ustinov and the Central Committee of the CPSU.
            Poor Kartsev!

            This is unlikely, the designer can not get less locksmith or turner, if only the experience was different. In the Union, a “turn-key” turner with more than 30 years of experience could receive more than a young engineer. Yes it was. But this is an employee experience.
            1. kalibr 11 January 2020 22: 30 New
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              Quote: Svarog51
              anyway, his opinion is subjective.

              So it is unworthy to be published and can not be commented?
              1. Svarog51 12 January 2020 08: 55 New
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                Of course not. Has the right to. Only the opinion of a designer from Leningrad or Kharkov will be the same, but with regard to its development. I would be surprised if one of them spoke out in favor of the "alien" car.
                I will express my opinion - during the development of the T-64, T-72 and T-80, a single focal point was needed, maybe a single MBT would have been obtained, which would incorporate all the best from each development. IMHO, of course. Do not rewind time. request
                P.S. In the 90s, I bought one of the Tank Master’s numbers - there is a description of the organization of French tank units that arrived for exercises in / to Ukraine. Very informative article in terms of repair and maintenance of equipment. good
                1. kalibr 12 January 2020 08: 58 New
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                  Quote: Svarog51
                  P.S. In the 90s, I bought one of the Tank Master’s numbers - there is a description of the organization of French tank units that arrived for exercises in / to Ukraine. Very informative article in terms of repair and maintenance of equipment.

                  It was on such articles and books that I received my “tank education”.
                  1. Svarog51 12 January 2020 09: 03 New
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                    I know about this, and therefore I do not criticize. The only thing is that you and Sergey svp67 should work together on the article, it would be more informative and would not be criticized so much. This is the very coordination of actions. yes
              2. bar
                bar 12 January 2020 10: 05 New
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                So it is unworthy to be published and can not be commented?

                Of course it can. But it cannot be presented as the ultimate truth.
            2. Private-K 13 January 2020 00: 10 New
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              Quote: Svarog51
              This is unlikely, the designer can not get less locksmith or turner, if only the experience was different. In the Union, a “turn-key” turner with more than 30 years of experience could receive more than a young engineer.

              My father worked at YuMZ - he collected and adjusted intelligence satellites. His salary was 250 re. In the 1980s it increased to 300 - sometimes a little more. But the hard workers from the tire factory, in the same time, received the same amount only by entering the factory, and over time - rarely anyone had less than 600 salaries. This was the whole scoop.
              1. _Sergei_ 13 January 2020 05: 48 New
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                I worked as a power engineer of the defense industry workshop. Salary 160 rub. There was almost never a prize. Near the plant "Selmash". The power engineer received 350 rubles.
      4. Looking for 12 January 2020 16: 22 New
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        "our shoot has ripened everywhere." Yesterday I wrote about the knight’s glands. Today about Soviet tank building. All the "opuses" of this scribble are united by one-latent dislike and okhayivanie all Russian. Soviet .. and poorly hidden worship of the West.
        1. Doctor Evil 13 January 2020 04: 43 New
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          Quote: Seeker
          "our shoot has ripened everywhere." Yesterday I wrote about the knight’s glands. Today about Soviet tank building. All the "opuses" of this scribble are united by one-latent dislike and okhayivanie all Russian. Soviet .. and poorly hidden worship of the West.

          Grandfather is old. Retired grandfather. Grandfather needs bills. Here is graphomanite. There’s a little thing, there’s a little thing - grandfather a penny. As for the ideological component, the author has long been reforged and thinks with "realistic capitalist categories, and not false communist dogmas." Harry Harrison (s).
    2. kalibr 11 January 2020 07: 54 New
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      Quote: Odyssey
      All this, of course, does not negate the existence of real problems in the USSR, the main of which, in fact, which led to his death, was the presence in the party of such Jews as Shpakovsky. When they stopped rebuffing and they seized the leadership in the party, then "perestroika" began.

      It’s how it was possible to repulse them, when the slogans “Our steering party” hung on all fences. And how did the children of workers and peasants become "Judeas", how did the order-bearers and others who got up from the bottom became them? Something here is "wrong", huh?
    3. Uncle Izya 11 January 2020 08: 20 New
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      So tell this to the Zhirinovsky leadership of the country, they are also former communists
    4. kig
      kig 11 January 2020 09: 05 New
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      There were many reasons for the collapse of the USSR, and one of them was the presence in the top leadership of the party of people who did not see problems and did not want to change anything. They were good anyway. And you, comrade Odysseus, would probably be happy to write down ideologically inconsistent statements on this site and pass them "where you should." Or maybe now knock?
      1. Odysseus 12 January 2020 05: 25 New
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        Quote: kig
        Or maybe now knock?

        Look, I’m a convinced communist, now the former Soviet republics are a conglomerate of countries of peripheral capitalism (3 worlds), specifically in the Russian Federation oligarchic-mafia state capitalism. Where can I knock and on whom? Chubais himself? Where is the logic in your statements?
        Quote: kig
        And you, comrade Odysseus, would probably be happy to write down ideologically inconsistent statements on this site and transmit them “where should”

        Again, look, I am scolding the traitors who, being formally communists, destroyed the Soviet system and now they hatefully hate the Soviet regime. They pour slop on it 24 hours a day. That is, I scold people with double morality, and you conclude from this that I have double morality. Where is the logic?
        Quote: kig
        They were fine anyway

        Look again. How was it “good for them” when people in the USSR leadership destroyed it? So they were not good. Because they destroyed what they were not good that there appeared in the leadership such people for whom the Soviet system was unbearable, they could not be billionaires under it, and the people were kept in the position of slaves.
        I’m writing this not to offend you, we’ll just never get out of our crisis until we clear our minds.
    5. kalibr 11 January 2020 22: 32 New
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      "And then on the ruins of a mosque ... Did I ruin a mosque too?"
      1. Looking for 12 January 2020 16: 25 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        "And then on the ruins of a mosque ... Did I ruin a mosque too?

        if you dig deeper, maybe. yes.
    6. carstorm 11 12 January 2020 03: 57 New
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      listen to me, the question is tormenting, but if the article is in some women's magazine about the fact that there was no sex in the USSR, will you also rush to defend the Union?) Damn, you basically did not try to write articles of this and not just another eulogy to sing about the deceased?)
      1. Odysseus 12 January 2020 04: 55 New
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        Quote: carstorm 11
        Listen to me, the question is tormenting, and if the article is in some sort of women's magazine about the fact that there was no sex in the USSR, will you also rush to defend the Union?)

        Tormented, I answer) Unfortunately, I do not read women's magazines, but if I had read this, then I would have rushed to the embrasure. For they lie, damned, there was love in the USSR, was))
        Quote: carstorm 11
        damn you essentially did not try to write articles of this

        Because of my sinful powers, I always try to write on the merits of the article. And here he acted the same way. The bottom line is exactly what being of this article is anti-Sovietism. The story about tanks is just a screen, that paper is wrapped in, the message that the author wants to introduce to your head. He simply covers himself with his “retelling” of Kartsev’s memoirs, in order to say that if it is revealed they say it's not me, it's all Kartsev. This is the standard manipulative technique used a billion times since perestroika.
        Quote: carstorm 11
        but not to arrange here another eulogy to sing on the deceased?)

        The Lord is with you, where is the eulogy here? This is just a criticism of those who killed the deceased, and these killers were formally Communists .. After all, it was people of the world outlook and morality such as Mr. Shpakovsky. Of course, they were incomparably smarter and higher than him on the public ladder, but he the same type. And then about death, think, if everything died, Shpakovsky would try so hard. The bottom line is that only the USSR died, and not the ideas of socialism.
        1. carstorm 11 12 January 2020 05: 06 New
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          the point is that you are defending a corpse in this case) and not ideas. and I don’t see anti-Sovietism here. Yes, even if he is, that person has the right to his opinion about that time. this does not change the fact that Kartsev wrote this truth?)))
        2. your1970 12 January 2020 09: 58 New
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          Quote: Odyssey
          then about death, think, if everything died, Shpakovsky would try so hard. The bottom line is that only the USSR died, and not the ideas of socialism at all.

          The notion of "nonsense", quite familiar to everyone who lived under the USSR, just confirms the viability of IDEAS.
          And this phenomenon was wildly massive, they dragged everything almost without exception ....
          "Everything around the people, everything around nobody" .......
          1. Odysseus 12 January 2020 21: 11 New
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            Quote: your1970
            The concept of "nonsense", which is completely familiar to everyone who lived under the USSR, just confirms the viability of precisely IDEAS.

            You write amazing things. Indeed, this first of the theses of the author is almost the most deceitful. The stories about the "mischief", forgive the truth, were very stupid even for the late 80s when they began to be introduced into the brains of Soviet citizens with the full power of the CPSU agitation industry, but then, okay, people just could not compare, they did not see how they operate in private property. But already in the 90s when "people began to work for themselves" it was not old parts and sausages that took away, but entire branches of production, conglomerates of factories, everything and at all levels from stealing cables to scrap metal to Uralmash began to steal. And this continues until now, after all, the theft of national wealth has become a national idea. And now, in 2020, after all this, talking about the Soviet "bad times" and even deducing from here the "unviability of the idea", excuse me, is unimaginably ridiculous.
            Quote: your1970
            And this phenomenon was wildly massive, they dragged everything almost without exception ....

            You confuse 2 different phenomena - a mismatch with the ideal, a la "Andromeda Nebula", when everything is already so ideological that no one steals, and the real scale of theft based on the real characteristics of society in the conditions of the Cold War. It’s psychologically understandable which of us didn’t see how a detail was carried away by trifles (or didn’t carry it away), hence the soil on which this myth was introduced in the 80s. However, because of a mismatch with the final goal, there should be no incorrectness the way. Just based on reality after 1985 (and especially after 1991) and on the basis of the real characteristics of Soviet people (in fact, the first urban generation was brought up), we can now clearly say that they stole surprisingly few .
            Quantitative estimates have long been published, according to the USSR Goskomstat in 1990 (perestroika, when they were already stealing big), the sum of all thefts of state and public property amounted to only 5,4 billion rubles. For comparison, the amount of the shadow economy this year was estimated at 99,8 1991 billion rubles. And in comparison with what happened after XNUMX with private ownership and, by the way, with what is in the "first world" countries, it’s just a miserable, zero. Here’s to you
          2. Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 21: 34 New
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            Quote: your1970
            "Everything around is folk - everything around is a draw

            To be honest, this saying hesitated. Do you think they’re not dragging right now? Yes, how. Only now they furnished everything with guards and cameras, it became harder to steal.
            1. your1970 13 January 2020 14: 56 New
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              Quote: Odyssey
              we can clearly say now that they stole surprisingly little.

              Once, while driving through the army, I was in some city (I don’t remember which one!) - everything was painted in bright orange KamAZ color: fences, houses, roofs, sheds, floors, blockages, chicken coops and toilets by itself ...
              Streets of the color of sunrise ....
              On the sagging jaw- "And they say we have a little factory paint here" ....
              Technology up to the primitive - write out 2 kg of paint through bookkeeping - we take out a 40 kg drum (per bottle in the warehouse and through passage)
              This is a minuscule for this factory (maybe!), But the factories all across the country worked like that ..
              Or, for example, in my hometown, it was necessary to empty warehouses from Himmselkhoztekhnika due to delay and the need to unload new fertilizers from wagons.
              Bulldozers pushed everything into a ravine and covered it with earth.
              Either 10, then 16 thousand tons of nitrate and something else ....
              If a plane falls into a ravine or lightning strikes, the village will blow off nafik. Probably to zero ....
              Until now, in a military town, periodically, in abandoned garages, this climbs out, ooooooo .....
              In the 90s, a roof was removed from one garage; it was blocked by helicopter blades placed on a rib.
              2 KamAZ vane beams ..... the commander in the 70s was too lazy to send to the factory ...
              I gave the garage to a good man for a ram ....
              And all this was not in the 90s but in the quiet 70-80 ...
              Oh, about gasoline in the ravines at the end of the quarter, it’s boring even to remember .. the whole country was merging, funds will not be used up, they will be cut ....
              And this is kind of trifle, but in the backswing of the country there are wild amounts and values.
              The meat from our meat factory was not sold in our village, everything was exported to Moscow. But at the same time, all meat was stolen from a meat factory .....
              I personally broke into scrap new GDR machines in the Len region in 1987.They bought machines, but they didn’t fit in the workshop :)
              So they were thrown into the backyards in 1980. And they drove us to help to disassemble and take them to scrap
              1. Mordvin 3 13 January 2020 16: 59 New
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                Only recently, a major complained to me that they were being forced to paint grass on Putin's arrival. Where - I will not say. yes
                The sun rises over the Yellow River
                The Chinese are going to work ...
              2. Odysseus 13 January 2020 22: 54 New
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                Quote: your1970
                And all this was not in the 90s but in the quiet 70-80 ...

                You think I believe that nothing was stolen smile They stole, of course. I won’t even argue with that. Everything is as you wrote.
                But you need to see measure . Compared to the capitalist economy that we have seen in the USSR since the end of the 80s, theft is just a childish prank. The type of economy and society itself did not allow to steal, it was aimed not at making profit, but at the needs of a person, at his development, both intellectual and moral. Despite all the stupidities and mistakes. Which, by the way, only accumulated since the time of Khrushchev
                In order to nothing didn’t steal even in the most ideal conditions without the sweltering cold war time must pass.
                Hundreds of thousands of years had to pass in order for a monkey to turn into a man, but a couple of years is enough to turn a man into an animal again.
                Quote: your1970
                I personally broke new GDR machines in the Len region of V1987 into scrap metal. I bought the machines, but they didn’t fit in the workshop :)

                This is a slightly different process than mischief-mismanagement and, by the way, losses from it, just from the mistakes or indifference of people were an order of magnitude more than from badass.
                1. your1970 14 January 2020 16: 41 New
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                  Quote: Odyssey
                  But you need to see a measure.

                  30 (thirty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years metalworkers collect abandoned iron in the fields and it still exists and there is still a lot of it in the fields measure???yes there, in the scale of the country, thousands of Uralmashs were fully loaded
                  Quote: Odyssey
                  The type of economy and society itself did not allow to steal, it was aimed not at making profit,
                  and to meet the needs by stealing what you couldn’t just buy ... For example, banal screws - a relative being the head of the PMK issued them BY PIECE(!!!!) - because they’ll take it home anyway.
                  The bulbs were carried from the house burning to work, and there they were exchanged for whole ones.
                  Quote: Odyssey
                  not for profit, but for the needs of a person, for his development

                  - meat stolen from a meat factory - for development. A workers' settlement of 18 lived on stolen meat - there were problems with grain for feeding livestock, a few kept it. Anyone could feed pigs from a store, but there were few of them.

                  You can’t say that damned oligarchs flew from Mars and screwed everything up, but we weren’t in the know ....

                  It we (the whole country without exception !!!) - pulled and torn the USSR apart.
                  Someone did things that nobody needed and received bonuses for overfulfilling the plan, someone poured gasoline into a ravine, someone dragged home guides from the S-5 (????????? !!!!!!! !! belay belay -by this time no one knows WHY in 1981, guides for unguided rockets are needed at home), someone dragged paint / boards, someone threw in the Kirovets river (“yes they will give a new one !!!”), who then meat posts went de sent, but dried out, someone fell down a forest and drew a poppycock n about a forest shaft, after which the USSR had to invent TWO(!!!) different export GOSTs ("Northern" and "Novorossiysk" !!!)
                  1. Odysseus 14 January 2020 23: 45 New
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                    Quote: your1970
                    Thirty (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) years, metalworkers collect iron left in the fields and it still exists and there is still a lot of it in the fields is a measure ??? yes there, in the scale of the country, thousands of Uralmashs were fully loaded

                    Measure is in the sense of a measure of comparison. And so I understand your emotions, and in no way defending theft or mismanagement. But this is just a little. You yourself saw how you started managing for “yourself.” We started to admire this from the beginning of perestroika, and after 1991 this management finally won. Then profit in your pocket became the only idea and measure of all things. And what ? Everyone began to plunder, totally everything and at all levels. And it continues to this day. At the level of the leadership of the country and large corporations, they register them in offshores and withdraw billions of dollars abroad. A little lower, all FSB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, customs, etc. steal. billions of rubles, and so on down to the people in the villages who now have no work and who drag everything to the last nail.
                    As a result, then there were thousands of factories, now they are not there, then tanks, spaceships, machine tools, etc., were produced - now there is no (or minuscule), then there were cows on the farm - now there are not, in the final result is then people lived, but now no .
                    And this literally cries out, for example, in 1987 (the last relatively normal Soviet year), the population growth in the RSFSR amounted to 968 thousand people, then in 1993 Russia dying out for 750 thousand people.. The difference is more than 1 million 700 thousand people a year !!!
                    This is capitalism! This is "managing for yourself." It is literally death.
                    Quote: your1970
                    A working village of 18 lived on stolen meat - there were problems with grain for feeding livestock, a few kept

                    So I was recently in Znamenka (Smolensk region). The Union had a strong village, a livestock farm, the production of building materials, a population of more than 1000, a hospital, everything was like everywhere else. But relatively poor, for the Non-Black Earth Region, and the RSFSR as a whole, were squeezed. Did they steal there? Of course, yes, both at the state farm and in production, everything is as you described. However, there was life, the village at least slowly, but developed. Now, as if the Nazis had gone, everything had been destroyed, the population had halved, the state farm had been gone for a long time, even the buildings had been stolen, the hospital had been “optimized”, work only at a private sawmill (where it was clear that the forest was illegally cut down and steal) .All who did not leave, get drunk and drag everything that is bad. And throughout Russia this is so, and not only across Russia, because the Soviet Union consisted not only of it, but Russia was also in order because of oil and gas compared to others.
                    Look at what the "right capitalist economy" brought to Ukraine and Tajikistan, Georgia or Kyrgyzstan.
                    I repeat, I agree with all your examples (only the majority of stupidity and evil nevertheless came from a degenerate party, and not from the people), but the fact is that in our conditions the difference between capitalism and socialism is the difference between death and life.
                    1. your1970 15 January 2020 20: 25 New
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                      Quote: Odyssey
                      So I was recently in Znamenka (Smolensk region).
                      -Do you know why? But everything is trite ... Moscow is nearby ...
                      Why bend wheezing and tear your veins on a plowed field, if in Moscow you can sit in a guard on a chair for 2500 per shift ??
                      Previously, during the Soviet Union, with a frantic freebie for production and sufficient fixing of the population in place, the Znamenka developed. The blind man turned his eyes to the fact that they were stealing, the people worked in return, because it was rather difficult to flee to the city, and there wasn’t much financial sense and it turned out: to get 100 rubles on a collective farm with stolen grain and their own hens or to get 200 at the factory - but with a chicken from the market, which cost 5 rubles.
                      And then the freebie ended - they stopped giving tractors / spare parts / fuel / lubricants / stuff for free, the registration was buried, and in Moscow the money moved. The people rushed to the exit ...
                      So it bent - this village.

                      The whole problem now is that back to the village people:
                      - you can’t just lure him with money - there isn’t such money there and is not expected. Even if everyone stops stealing ... and even doesn’t stop the money - young people don’t want to work with their hands ....
                      - forced labor is problematic. Not those times ..... yes, and forced labor ... well, you remember QUALITY work of distribution workers in the USSR. Especially those who came from cities to villages ...

                      As a result, even if socialism suddenly arises tomorrow, the village will die anyway. In my opinion, the process is irreversible
    7. gsev 13 January 2020 19: 10 New
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      Quote: Odyssey
      Why was he drawn to write about tanks

      A person may have always been interested in tanks and had to teach the history of the CPSU. Our philosophy teachers also forced us to write compendiums of classics, while they themselves were more interested in the participants of the Bilderberg club.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2020 07: 19 New
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    . “I served and operated both of these machines and I will say that this is not so. The T-62 was a dead end in development, and it could not surpass the T-55 in any ... specified indicator. "
    svp67 (Sergey)

    The key epigraph I can argue with. 115mm smoothbore gun - this is not 100mm rifled! By the way. Israel upgraded its Tirana mainly by installing 105mm British L7 guns. China, Iraq, and Egypt did likewise.
    So at least one superiority factor in the T-62 was! In addition, Vyacheslav Olegovich does not indicate that there was a project of "sixty-two" in Tagil with a 6 roller track and automatic loader! But the USSR took the path of “tank revolution”, not “evolution”!
    As paradoxical as it is, evolution has been taken by all and sundry, from China to Romania! Sometimes at the level of such primitivism that you are amazed! For example, the Samovar model! To be honest, I did not believe in the beginning that the vaunted German engineering school was involved in the project.
    Well, somewhere like that!
    R.s. Vyacheslav Olegovich respect and respect, I personally pleased!
    P.ss Ural rise, get dressed in encyclopedias, wipe the keyboards and charge the phones, we will fight for Tagil and his “72” !!!
    Good day to all !!!
    1. Uncle Izya 11 January 2020 08: 22 New
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      I read somewhere that 100 guns were squandered to 115 mm?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2020 08: 31 New
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        Quote: Uncle Izya
        I read somewhere that 100 guns were squandered to 115 mm?

        Initially, the idea was to get a 100mm smoothbore gun (see Rapier), but the length of the ammunition did not allow it to be placed in the tank tower! Then we went along the path of increasing the caliber to 115mm, which allowed us to maintain the initial velocity of the projectile.
        1. svp67 11 January 2020 09: 28 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          increasing the caliber to 115mm, which allowed to maintain the initial velocity of the projectile.

          No, she even managed to get it higher. But, something went wrong. As a result, the same T-64, if initially armed with a modification of the 115-mm smoothbore tank gun, but with separate loading, was very quickly rearmament to the 125-mm smoothbore gun.
          Kartsev gives an example: “the laboriousness of manufacturing T-55 and T-62 tanks was almost the same, and due to an improvement in the combat characteristics of the latter, its price was 15% higher than that of the T-55 tank."
          Did the notorious “improvement in combat characteristics” raise the price? And the installation of the same mechanism for ejecting cartridges, another stabilizer for tank weapons, a heavier and larger gun, increasing the mass of the tank, its dimensions ... this is all so, it passed by
          1. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 12: 38 New
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            Quote: svp67
            But, something went wrong. As a result, the same T-64, if initially armed with a modification of the 115-mm smoothbore tank gun, but with separate loading, was very quickly rearmament to the 125-mm smoothbore gun.

            Just Kharkov decided to wash.
            1. svp67 11 January 2020 14: 11 New
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              Quote: mordvin xnumx
              Just Kharkov decided to wash.

              So the Kharkiv first 125 mm and put
              1. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 15: 04 New
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                Quote: svp67
                So the Kharkiv first 125 mm and put

                Found at the same Kartsev:
                Since the Kharkovites could not bring their tank to the standard of serial production, we decided to install a 125-mm gun with an automatic loading device for the T-115 tank worked out for us for a 62-mm gun. In terms of external dimensions, both guns were the same. Usually, all of our initiative work was timed to some anniversary dates. This work was dedicated to the 50th anniversary of the October Revolution. Soon, one prototype T-62 tank with a 125 mm cannon was made.

                October 26, 1967 S.A. came to us Zverev. By the end of the working day, he came to the experimental workshop. At the assembly site was a T-62 tank with a 125-mm cannon, on the tower of which were the designer E.E. Wryneck and researcher L.F. Terlikov. I began to explain to the minister what kind of tank it was, it immediately “exploded”: “Are you again plotting tricks to Kharkov ?!” To this I replied: “Sergey Alekseevich! Why are you nervous? And here is Kharkov? The Americans and Germans are upgrading the serial tanks with might and main, and why are we forbidden to do this? ”He immediately cooled down.
                1. svp67 11 January 2020 16: 20 New
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                  Quote: mordvin xnumx
                  October 26, 1967 S.A. came to us Zverev. By the end of the working day, he came to the experimental workshop.

                  Anything can be, I’ll say one thing, “The T-64 tank with the D-81 smoothbore gun” was adopted by the Soviet Army of the USSR SSR by a resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR, dated May 20, 1968. that is, by this time he had already passed the full stage of factory and state tests, and this is not a matter of one day or a month ...
                  1. carstorm 11 12 January 2020 04: 07 New
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                    if it has passed then those in which have hidden all the flaws. at the GSVG exercises in 77-79, 64 began to fail at such a speed that the hair stood on end on the whole command. This, by the way, is one of the reasons why the T-80 became the second machine in service then. There were wild showdowns with manufacturers right up to wrecking but there were no big changes as they tried.
                    1. svp67 12 January 2020 04: 23 New
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                      Quote: carstorm 11
                      at the GSVG exercises in 77-79, 64 began to fail at such a speed

                      And where is the data from?
                      1. carstorm 11 12 January 2020 04: 34 New
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                        historical fact. I personally from my father but in general on the network about this, too, have a lot of things. he just then received an appointment in the GSVG and tried everything on himself. 64 could not stand. He said that when new appointments were received already in the Union, they practically prayed that they would not be at the new duty station. he was lucky) then I, too, except for 80 other machines, I did not operate for the entire time of service.
            2. Mazuta 11 January 2020 17: 52 New
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              I’ll try to argue, it’s not in Kharkiv ...
              The task was set as always: "at any cost from min. Alterations and" without reducing TTX "...
              Therefore, there were more than comments on it (the mass grew by 3,5 tons) ...
              Until it came to Chuikov: "I (to put it mildly) do not care, even carry a pig ..." This is about U5TS ...
              I repeat the words of N. A. Molodnyakov ...
              1. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 18: 14 New
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                Quote: Mazuta
                Until it came to Chuikov: "I (to put it mildly) do not care, even carry a pig ..." This is about U5TS ..

                No doubt about it.
                But we are talking about 125 mm (D-81), and not 115 mm (U5TS).
                1. Mazuta 11 January 2020 18: 20 New
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                  And I'm not trying to argue with you ...
                  64 and 62 - earth and sky ... Absolutely different cars ...
                  like 2A20 and 2A46 ... Why oppose them? !!
                  1. Mazuta 11 January 2020 18: 21 New
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                    it's me that no one "washed" anyone!
                  2. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 19: 06 New
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                    In my opinion, we did not understand each other.
                    Kharkov did not deal with the engine, and while they were slowing down there, Kartsev attached 125 mm with his automatic loader on the T-62. Zverev demanded that this machine was put in a Kharkov tank.
                    1. Mazuta 11 January 2020 19: 18 New
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                      To blame. really did not understand. I’ve heard about AZ 62 for the first time ...
                      Can a link be to a book?
                      1. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 19: 21 New
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                        Quote: Mazuta
                        Can a link be to a book?

                        Yes, all the same memoirs of Kartsev.
                        https://e-libra.ru/read/337015-vospominaniya-glavnogo-konstruktora-tankov.html
                      2. Mazuta 11 January 2020 19: 24 New
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                        Thank you.
                        Kartsev only read "my fate ...". The book went to someone ...
                    2. Mazuta 11 January 2020 19: 21 New
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                      Some "misunderstandings" ... MOH and AZ are completely different ...
                    3. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 19: 28 New
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                      Quote: Mazuta
                      Some "misunderstandings" ... MOH and AZ are completely different ...

                      It is so, Kharkovites were indignant, and Tagil undertook to do 72-ku.
                    4. Mazuta 11 January 2020 21: 19 New
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                      and about the book ...
                      If I find, I’ll write in a "personal".
                      thanks again for the link ...
                    5. beeper 12 January 2020 08: 30 New
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                      Quote: Mazuta
                      and about the book ...
                      If I find, I’ll write in a "personal".
                      thanks again for the link ...

                      hi Comrade Mazuta, just type in the search engine "Kartsov memories" and a lot of links to you will be.

                      There is also an interesting book on the Web of the memoirs of another TopVar, Ru site author, tank designer Yuri Apukhtin, as well as the diaries of Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Morozov, one of the participants in the creation of the first Soviet tanks that were produced and designed at the Kharkov Locomotive, BT and T-34 in particular, and then the Chief Designer of serial T-34-76 and T-34-85, T-44, T-54 and T-64, and many designs of experimental tanks.

                      In the same way, you can type in the search engine about Venediktov, the chief designer of the T-72. I don’t remember exactly the name, but a whole panegyric of memories of him.

                      By the way, Kartsev himself did not remember very well about his former deputy and friend Venediktov.
                      Apparently, he remained insulted that he was appointed Chief Designer on the recommendation of the one who was leaving (if necessary, to change the Nizhny Tagil climate because of his chronically ill daughter, and not because of his "truthfulness"! yes ) to increase, in the head Leningrad NIITransmash, Kartseva, his former deputy and friend Venediktov, while rewarding those involved and not involved in the State Prize for the project of the new T-72 tank, which was still fostered under the Chief Designer Kartsev, did not even mention it (however, like the former deputy L .N. Kartsev in the premium list for the new (modernized T-54 with the implementation of the accumulated "package of structural improvements", PAZ system and a two-plane gun stabilizer), the T-55 tank "forgot" the fighter who fired the "fifty-five", but not long before by this, A.A. Morozov, who, as a result of his health, torn during the war years, left Nizhni Tagil to Kharkov, when leaving home from evacuation, who recommended a young but promising Kartsev to the Chief Designers instead of himself).

                      Better, of course, to read the primary sources, rather than retelling! wink
                      But, after all, dear Vyacheslav Olegovich honestly admitted that he only popularizes and does not at all pretend to be 100% certainty of his "specific interpretations" of the short magazine version of "Memoirs of the Chief Designer of Tanks" ?! winked

                      So, everyone is free to decide whether to take it for granted or to work hard to read a rather interesting and informative book of quite subjective interpretations of intrigue around the history of the improved T-54 (T-55), creation of the T-62 and an entertaining compilation prehistory on its basis T-72.
                      Find out the Kartsian characteristics of the figures involved in tank building, petty factory and city squabbles, about the “hoaxing” and “undercover games of the Nanai boys” - the war of the party-industrial groups “northern” and “southern” (eh, too small Vyacheslav Olegovich dug up, “didn’t unfold the theme "-would have put a deeper depth, I wouldn’t have had to rotten rotten anti-Soviet for miserable grains from a finger — on this" deep platform "one could trample a dozen anti-Soviet and even get such a" feed "for" reinterpretation "! wink ) around the Kharkov conceptual “sixty-four”, by “pulling the blankets over”, which led to the disastrous Soviet “three-strike” based on the base “T-64”, directly from the participant in those events ?!

                      My Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky, Thank you so much for the tireless work of many years in the Important Cause of Popularizing the History of Technology, for the comprehensive Popularization of Modelism and Technical Creativity! good
                      I think that now many of our fellow colleagues have focused due to this Article, are they going to read the source itself ?!

                      PS Regarding the “anecdote to the students”, I don’t know how things were in Penza, but in the Southeast of the Ukrainian SSR, knocking was not an honor even for Komsomol “activists”!
                      In my technical “alma mater”, during the most prosperous “years of stagnation” —the years of the greatest prosperity and power of our Soviet state, the teachers of the departments “History of the CPSU” and “Marxist-Leninist Philosophy” were the most courageous language, "on the topic" and told "thematic" jokes in the audience, for a general respite and "anchoring" in the presentation of serious socio-political issues requiring attention.
                      So the material of lectures and seminars was even better absorbed. yes
                      All of them, as “patented” interpreters and “party line guides” at the university, felt more confident than all the other teachers and nothing came of them because of the bold enough “short stories” told to the “wide audience”!
                      The teacher of scientific communism, who, in general, very often in his statements was “on the verge of a foul (by Soviet standards)” and at least henna! smile
  • Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 10: 30 New
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    Нquote = Kote panhe Kohanka] but the length of the ammunition did not allow him to be placed in the tank tower! Then we went along the path of increasing the caliber to 115mm [/ quote] The length of the ammunition did not allow us to place the THREADED 100mm high-power gun in the T-55, and the T-62 was specially designed for the long length of the shell of this gun, and only then, without changing the design and external the dimensions of this gun "squandered" its caliber to 115 mm.
  • svp67 11 January 2020 08: 49 New
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    Quote: Uncle Izya
    I read somewhere that 100 guns were squandered to 115 mm?

    So it was. Moreover, the initiator was Kartsev. Fortunately, there were both design bureaus and production facilities in Perm and Yekaterinburg.
  • svp67 11 January 2020 08: 30 New
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    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    As paradoxical as it is, evolution has been taken by all and sundry, from China to Romania!

    And even more paradoxically, such a massive modernization bypassed the T-62 ...
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Israel upgraded its Tirana mainly by installing 105mm British L7 guns.

    According to your logic, they could have taken 115-mm 5UTS guns, since they captured T-62s in various forms from the Syrians and Egyptians abound, no, they took the RISKED English gun
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    So at least one superiority factor in the T-62 was!

    There was, but it was very leveled by poor accuracy of this weapon. But if of course the BPS got, then yes ... EXCELLENCE.
    For a long time I could not understand why this happened, how it happened that a 100 mm rifled gun has excellent accuracy, 125 mm is also excellent accuracy, but here is 115 mm, the spread is higher.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 January 2020 08: 45 New
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      Sergey, I won’t even argue with you on the practical application of the T-62! You used them! About the inaccuracy of the 115mm guns, honestly, I have not met anywhere. I know that they have been progressively modernized, playing with heat exchangers, leveling the barrel.
      Regarding the installation by Israel of 105mm on the captured T-54, 55 and 62. The Israelis themselves answered here - logistics and the possibility of using supply channels from abroad! Moreover, they themselves produced L7, as well as ammunition for it!
      1. svp67 11 January 2020 08: 45 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Moreover, they themselves produced L7, as well as ammunition for it!

        Well, and even more so.
      2. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 10: 37 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        playing with heat exchangers, barrel leveling

        Well, I can still understand the leveling of the barrel, the accuracy of processing, the accuracy of installation in the gun’s body, but what is a heat exchanger? Maybe a thermal jacket? But on the T-62 they were not mounted, it seems.
        1. svp67 11 January 2020 14: 12 New
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          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          But on the T-62 they were not mounted, it seems.

          On the latest modifications set
    2. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 10: 10 New
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      Quote: svp67
      According to your logic, they could have taken 115-mm 5UTs guns

      Captured maybe enough, but one BC per gun maximum. You won’t even be able to practice. )))
    3. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 11: 09 New
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      Quote: svp67
      For a long time I could not understand why this happened, how it happened that a 100 mm rifled gun has excellent accuracy, 125 mm is also excellent accuracy, but here is 115 mm, the spread is higher.
      Well, how did you figure it out? Seriously, I'm curious. With a rifled cannon, it’s clear, all the same, to a certain speed that the projectile itself, that the rotation of the projectile, its stability on the trajectory, and therefore the accuracy are high. But we are talking about a 100 mm D-10 cannon, it is unlikely that you have dealt with the D-54TS, and there the design is different and the speed too. The design of the 115 mm smoothbore U-5TS repeated the D-54TS. So the thing is the design of the gun?
      1. svp67 11 January 2020 14: 19 New
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        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Well, how did you figure it out? Seriously, I'm curious.

        I can’t say 100 percent, but I think the point is that this gun was not created from scratch, but as a rework and a barrel calculated for a 100 mm was not at a height with boring and pressure increase, in 115 mm caliber. Apparently, its length was not completely accurately calculated when switching to a new caliber, as a result, a “traveling wave” on the edge of the trunk - the vibrations are not completely extinguished
        1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 14: 22 New
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          Exactly, a very interesting opinion, as it did not come to apply this to a tank gun, but in the rifleman this has long been known. Thanks!
    4. beeper 12 January 2020 09: 33 New
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      For a long time I could not understand why this happened, how it happened that a 100 mm rifled gun has excellent accuracy, 125 mm is also excellent accuracy, but here is 115 mm, the spread is higher.

      hi Comrade Svp67, it sounds so intriguing - "I couldn’t understand why for a long time", but you still didn’t continue, finally understood or not, why did this happen ??!
      It seems to me that the reason is in the reworking, palliative, 5UTS design, in the initial forced "fit into the dimensions" of the existing D10-T2S, in the ratio of the barrel wall thickness, its outer diameter and length (it is possible that it is not quite optimal in terms of ballistic calculation and overall stability to bending-deformation under static and dynamic load?). In the “squeezing” by the designers of the design reserves from the “basic” recoil devices and in the absence of a slow braking cycle in the 5UTS ?!
      In addition, the barrel bore receiver is a load (and a peculiar, hardly harmonious tuned, “exhaust” resonator) on a wave-like oscillating barrel, which completely creates a dynamic imbalance in the system ?!
      In addition, the heat-insulating barrel casing is an additional "structural rigidity" that changes the overall picture of vibrations and resonances during a shot.
      This is the reason for this, offhand, because the whole system must be balanced in the ratio of its parts relative to the center of mass, both in dynamics and in statics, not without reason, when upgrading a 125mm gun, the recoil device and the knurling device are located symmetrically relative to the axis of the barrel bore .... winked
      Here there are a lot of all sorts of nuances that manifest themselves only in the finished design, which then later has to be “adjusted to condition” for a long time, and the 5UTS gun was forced “early ripening”, with an a priori exhausted “design reserve” for modernization. request
      For example, few people know about (used by gunsmiths from the “wicked era” of firearms) a long-noticed “wonderful” fact that local thickening on the muzzle of a small arms barrel positively affects its accuracy of battle. smile
  • Alexga 11 January 2020 22: 22 New
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    Ural-supporting edge of the Power!
  • Catfish 11 January 2020 07: 24 New
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    Odysseus, you would have written a separate article about the "Judas" Shpakovsky, but, by golly, tired of constantly stumbling upon your whining neither in the village nor in the city. Envy, perhaps, tortured in connection with their own incapacity?
    1. Odysseus 12 January 2020 04: 27 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      but, by golly, tired of constantly stumbling upon your nagging neither to the village nor to the city.

      Dear Sea Cat, thank you for such a keen attention to my work, however, I’m wondering how you might get bored of my whining about Judas Shpakovsky if I was absent from the site for 1,5 years and this is generally my first comment about Mr. Shpakovsky for a long time. I just read this opus and remembered that there was an extremely “prolific” radical anti-Soviet from former teachers of Marxism-Leninism on the site, but I forgot his name. Although indeed in ancient times he has already spoken out about this citizen.
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Envy, perhaps, tortured in connection with their own incapacity?

      It is clear that you want to offend, but it did not work. I’m not at all envious, the only thing I envy so much is your phenomenal sensitivity to my messages, I just looked, you registered on the site at about the same time as I left (and in 2 years you have much more messages than I have in 7 smile ), how did you manage to constantly stumble upon "my nagging" just a mystery. For example, I still have not seen more than one of your messages, but it turns out there were thousands of them .....
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Odysseus, you would have written a separate article about the "Judas" Shpakovsky

      And here they offended, congratulations! Could you really have the idea that Judas Shpakovsky deserves more than contempt?
      1. Catfish 12 January 2020 05: 27 New
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        You know, there are very few people like you here, and I don’t get a grasp of nicknames and names when I see such scribble. You are just all the same, "Shpakovsky's Friends Club." Flattered. that you spent some time answering me. hi
  • andrewkor 11 January 2020 07: 33 New
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    I want to supplement the theme of Pericles.
    A certain billionaire passed away. The heirs are looking forward to the will to be announced. The notary read out: “I, my name, being in my right mind and clear memory, I hereby declare that I made all my fortune while I was alive!”
  • Amateur 11 January 2020 07: 41 New
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    Why retell LN Kartseva? His most interesting memoirs have long been on the internet. http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kartsev_ln/index.html
    In addition, the diaries of A.A. Morozov, the legendary designer of tanks, were published
    http://militera.lib.ru/db/morozov_aa/index.html
    It is necessary to read the primary sources, and not their interpreters.
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 07: 57 New
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      Victor! There are a lot of things on the Internet. Now it makes sense to turn to them, right? Or it was easier to write: Read memoirs ... Many things can be considered ...
      1. Amateur 11 January 2020 07: 59 New
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        Or it was easier to write: Read memoirs ..

        This is what you wrote absolutely correctly!
    2. mr.ZinGer 11 January 2020 08: 07 New
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      Do you have the time and opportunity to read all the primary sources ?! I don’t have, thanks to the author, the value of such articles is that they allow you to navigate in the information field, and then everyone decides to contact the original source or not.
      1. Amateur 11 January 2020 08: 40 New
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        For the past 9 years, after retirement, I am only amused by the fact that I read the sources. And if you use only the comments, you can get: "Every cook can rule the state" instead of Leninsky: "We are not utopians. We know that any laborer and any cook are not able to immediately take control of the state."
        Therefore, I wrote my comment, because I do not agree with the interpretation by Mr. Shpakovsky of some facts from the memoirs of L.N. Kartsev
        1. mr.ZinGer 11 January 2020 09: 14 New
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          Great entertainment, I envy you.
          Any review article is subjective, but if the article aroused interest, it’s already good. This is the message for further action.
          1. Amateur 11 January 2020 09: 20 New
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            Great entertainment, I envy you.

            No need to envy. We will all be there. drinks
            By the way: if you read Kartsev and Morozov at the same time, there is a three-dimensional picture of not only the t-64 / t-72 competition, but also the decision-making mechanism in the Soviet military-industrial complex. And absolutely breathtaking squabble level "stars" on television.
            1. kalibr 11 January 2020 09: 33 New
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              Quote: Amateur
              And absolutely breathtaking squabble level "stars" on television.

              That's right. Only now within the framework of 10000 characters (the maximum size for perception from the screen) is it very difficult to state. And in parts ... "fascination" is lost. So here it is better to read them yourself and it is together.
  • Chaldon48 11 January 2020 08: 36 New
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    Now Russia has more storage than any other country.
    1. Chaldon48 11 January 2020 08: 38 New
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      At the time of sending, the word "tanks" disappeared
  • Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 09: 43 New
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    A brief retelling by V. Shpakovsky and in the manner of V. Shpakovsky of Kartsev's memoirs.
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/kartsev_ln/index.html
    A seven-ton hammer worked in the workshop where it was banged, riveting only one detail - the axle for railway cars, and then they made a stroller on you!
    Not riveting, but forging. And not a hammer, but the whole workshop, possibly not in one shift. The author may not be aware that the axis for railway cars is a very important part, and even needed in large quantities. I hope the author does not imagine that the hammer is the only machine tool in the workshop?
    And here - one, two and you're done! And what is this talking about? But only that in Soviet times, his own shirt was closest to the body, and that you could work for yourself much more efficiently than for society.
    Although it is possible that my hope is in vain. One “one, two,” which is worth it.
    And there they came across homemade pistols, and revolvers, and knives, and pistons with piston rings, and many other homemade products
    Strongly contradicts the position of the author in other articles:
    Well, if you live in a country where the free sale of weapons and the manufacture of its new models are allowed, then those amateur designers who are interested in doing this business, there is simply a vast field for activity
    and without the "free sale of weapons" the people would "cut out" pistols and revolvers, would have hands and desire.
    Moreover, the approach to lowering prices with the aim of introducing a new technique is incorrect.
    The author does not understand that the reduction in prices did not have the goal of introducing new equipment, as such, the goal was to increase labor productivity and reduce production costs! And what is very important, without reducing the payroll! It was this most important factor that Khrushchev was charged with!
    It is interesting that L. Kartsev liked the introduction of the economic councils, and that is why.
    I still wouldn’t have to, because in this case the level of competence of the leadership of the “economic council” had fallen sharply. And they would have kept the economic councils, the situation would have become possible when
    Kartsev was appointed Chairman of the Commission for the acceptance of the layout of the new tank model of the Kirov Plant
    By the way, Tagil’s competitor.
    instructions issued by the Office of the Head of the Tank Forces. ”
    Needless to say, no reaction to his paper was ever followed? After all, the boss cannot be wrong.
    There is no reaction from a specific person who is unfriendly towards Kartsev.
    There was no reaction from Potapov to this report ...

    T-80. " Meanwhile, if we compare it with the T-64A and T-72 tanks that we already had, it turns out that he had the same weapons with them, similar indicators in terms of protection and maneuverability, but it is much larger (i.e., approximately 1,6–1,8 times) spent fuel per kilometer
    How can the mobility characteristics be the same with a half engine power and about the same tank mass ?! 780, 840 hp on the T-72 and 1000, 1100, 1250 hp on the T-80. Yes, just increasing the power increases fuel consumption. And the tank’s jumps at various exhibitions are not for beauty, but simply demonstrate the magnificent running gear of the tank. If “Abrams” had at least a third less opportunity, then the Americans would have jumped at every opportunity.
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 09: 53 New
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      And at the end of the article there is a link. And the exact quotation is highlighted. "Interestingly, the introduction of economic councils L. Kartsev liked, and that's why.
      I still wouldn’t have to, because in this case the level of competence of the leadership of the “economic council” had fallen sharply.
      This surprised me. So what turns out that Kartseva was pleased with the decrease in the level of leadership competence?
      1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 10: 06 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        This surprised me. So what turns out that Kartseva was pleased with the decrease in the level of leadership competence?

        Very simple, "rubbing points" in this case is much easier.
        1. kalibr 11 January 2020 10: 57 New
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          That is, Kartsev was a fan of rubbing glasses? Well, it’s understandable, and as a communist he was also a Jew, anti-Soviet and Russophobe. Well ... about that and the article, foresaw a similar reaction.
          1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 11: 18 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            That is, Kartsev was a fan of rubbing glasses? Well, it’s understandable, and as a communist he was also a Jew, anti-Soviet and Russophobe. Well ... about that and the article, foresaw a similar reaction.
            Anticipated with your ability to analyze? It’s funny, and it’s been clear for a long time that you aren’t particularly in production and in tanks, but you’ll miss the master in the past. But Kartsev was, at least in his old age, an anti-Soviet:
            The Germans who won shortly after the war, who built the democratic, prosperous state — the FRG — won primarily from our victory. And we, having preserved the dictatorship of the CPSU apparatus in our country, have come to a crisis in all spheres of life and destroyed the USSR as a state.
            “Rubbing points” can be for different purposes, but you then clearly see for Kartsev only personal gain and the ability to ruin the USSR.
            1. kalibr 11 January 2020 11: 50 New
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              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              You then clearly see for Kartsev only personal gain and the ability to ruin the USSR.

              In my opinion, you wrote that it was beneficial to Kartsev, because he rubbed his glasses off. I don’t have it anywhere. No need to ascribe to me what is not.
              1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 11: 56 New
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                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                You can rub points for different purposes

                For example, in order to obtain equipment for the enterprise, various funds, including to improve the standard of living of the employees of the enterprise, in order to promote developments, many good reasons, but you immediately
                Quote: kalibr
                Well, it’s understandable, and as a communist he was also a Judas, anti-Soviet and Russophobe
                but I just didn’t write such a thing. So for you to “rub the glasses”, I'm afraid that’s exactly what
                Quote: kalibr
                only personal gain and the ability to ruin the USSR
                1. kalibr 11 January 2020 12: 04 New
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                  You re-read the entire text of his memoirs ...
            2. kalibr 11 January 2020 11: 51 New
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              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              that you are not particularly in production and in tanks

              And where do I write about production and tanks? This Kartsev writes ... and he really understood, right? You yourself provided a link to his memoirs. Read it! There are only a lot more!
              1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 12: 15 New
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                C'mon, actually these are your words in the article:
                A seven-ton hammer worked in the workshop where it was banged, riveting only one detail - the axle for railway cars, and here you have a carriage made! ... ... And here - one, two and you're done!

                But it’s wrong! The weapons manufacturing plant should be based on actual labor costs, and not on which product is “better” and which is “worse”. Moreover, the approach to lowering prices with the aim of introducing a new technique is incorrect.
                Where there is a quote from the book, it is clear there, and where the quote is not framed, then your text is there, "with a percentage of novelty above 70."
                1. kalibr 11 January 2020 13: 08 New
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                  No, Vladimir, you’re still impassable ... just like in the case of clicks, you don’t want to notice and understand basic things.
                  1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 13: 16 New
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                    Yes, yes, and sarcasm is not known to me.
          2. Aviator_ 11 January 2020 11: 35 New
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            Apparently, Kartsev was a lover of a quiet life, "rubbing his glasses" was his hobby. I didn’t understand from the article, this
            it turns out that he had the same weapons with them, similar indicators for security and maneuverability

            Kartsev wrote, or Vyacheslav? It’s just written nonsense, how can a machine with a greater thrust-weight ratio (T-80) have the same maneuverability with the T-72?
            Additives about the "Communist," etc., speak of the author’s complexes. Well, do not talk about it here in a technical article.
            1. kalibr 11 January 2020 11: 47 New
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              Quote: Aviator_
              it turns out that he had the same weapons with them, similar indicators for security and maneuverability

              There is a link. See for yourself...
              1. Vladimir_2U 11 January 2020 12: 02 New
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                What is in this link? Although the word is written about the much greater power of the T-80 turbine? Not a word there about it.
    2. beeper 12 January 2020 09: 56 New
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      And the tank’s jumps at various exhibitions are not for beauty, but demonstrate simply the magnificent running gear of the tank. If “Abrams” had at least a third less opportunity, then the Americans would have jumped at every opportunity.

      hi So, it seems, they were saying that in the 90s the Americans in Abu Dhabi tried on Abrams to repeat the jump of our Eighties and turned over (or nearly turned over, fell to one side), the crew was injured.
      In addition to high dynamism and a good suspension, a jumping tank should also have an axisymmetric weight distribution, and a low center of mass, otherwise it’s a disaster, like with a barn-like Abrasha! request
  • 113262a 11 January 2020 10: 57 New
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    Does Kartsev know? But how to take out a wounded mechanic’s drive through the fighting compartment when the breech of the gun is lowered and the tower is jammed? Just like in the T-80, no way! And the trained crews of the same eighties almost walked oud and back, when you know how! Drap-hatch, then-mehvoda under the ass, and he is one! Yes, and fuel consumption in the 219-far-fetched! That fuel oil, that’s why the TZMki accompanied us on the march, but the eighty battalion was much faster to get around the road! But wow survivability in battle, as shown by Donbass-MZ is no worse than AZ! So that the lovers of the TANBADFUL from Nizhny Tagil, this article is for you! To the consolation!
    1. beeper 12 January 2020 10: 51 New
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      Quote: 113262
      Does Kartsev know? But how to take out a wounded mechanic’s drive through the fighting compartment when the breech of the gun is lowered and the tower is jammed? Just like in the T-80, no way! And the trained crews of the same eighties almost walked oud and back, when you know how! Drap-hatch, then-mehvoda under the ass, and he is one! Yes, and fuel consumption in the 219-far-fetched! That fuel oil, that’s why the TZMki accompanied us on the march, but the eighty battalion was much faster to get around the road! But wow survivability in battle, as shown by Donbass-MZ is no worse than AZ! So that the lovers of the TANBADFUL from Nizhny Tagil, this article is for you! To the consolation!

      hi This, obsessively wanting to “express himself”, Kartsev justified “why” he didn’t come up with his own, but almost completely shamelessly slammed, largely worsening, the Morozov’s “sixty-four” design, although he was only charged with working out the T-64 variant sent from Kharkov "with a four-stroke V-shaped diesel engine for serial production in Nizhny Tagil!

      I read the Kartsevsky source — when you read the book in one day, and even in the course of party Soviet, KBshny and production realities, as well as the history of the described tanks, not only in Kartsev’s picture, the picture is voluminous and colorful, the impression of the author of “memoirs of the chief designer of tanks” a very “ambiguous” situation develops, with an unpleasant “aftertaste” —a clearly unhealthy atmosphere reigned there in the design bureau and at the factory, and Kartsev himself was a considerable part of the problem (which became a considerable problem of the military budget of the USSR and Soviet tank building Soviet army!), not the solution ... "undercover" intriguing, apparently, he was still, though himself "draw-justifies" a sort bortsom- "pravdoruba" ?! no
      Well, God be his judge.

      After reading the diaries of Alexander Alexandrovich Morozov, and the memoirs of his comrades in the war and post-war years, the impression is completely different - Worthy Man, Slabs - The real Chief Designer of tanks! good
    2. voyaka uh 12 January 2020 21: 15 New
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      "So lovers of the TANKAD-POVERTY from Nizhny Tagil, this article is for you!" ////
      ----
      The T-80 is much stronger than the T-72. There is nothing to argue about.
      The T-72 went into mass production as a cheap tank.
      When in Lebanon in the year 82, Israeli commandos measured and took photos of the first
      shot down by the T-72, then among the Israeli military there was a deep sigh of relief -
      Another massive simplified tank.
      They were afraid of the appearance of the T-80 in the Middle East.
      1. Alexga 12 January 2020 21: 32 New
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        The T-80 is much stronger than the T-72. There is nothing to argue about.
        The T-72 went into mass production as a cheap tank.
        When in Lebanon in the year 82, Israeli commandos measured and took photos of the first
        shot down by the T-72, then among the Israeli military there was a deep sigh of relief -
        Another massive simplified tank.

        No need to talk about it. My commander is an adviser to the Syrian tankmen in the Bekaa Valley, I believe him more. But I am curious, but what is the T-80 stronger than the T-72? Let's discuss. This was my job for 26 years. Only without links to the Internet, personal views. I, too, may be wrong.
  • Snail N9 11 January 2020 11: 09 New
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    What was it? Do I have one feeling of being "cheated" from what I read? request
    1. Mazuta 11 January 2020 18: 13 New
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      not only with you ...
  • Undecim 11 January 2020 13: 49 New
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    A seven-ton hammer worked in the workshop where it was banged, riveting only one detail - the axle for railway cars, and then they made a stroller on you!
    For the umpteenth time, the author puts himself in a completely losing position, trying to comment on technical issues.
    Firstly, not a hammer, but a press. Secondly, the railway axis goes through several stages in the manufacturing process. First, an axial billet is made by hot pressing. Then, in a similar way, a rough axis is made. Then, the finishing axis is made by metal cutting. And then on special equipment the process ends with the creation of a hollow axis. This is a finishing axis with a central through hole passing through the entire axis in the longitudinal direction.
    That is, this is not about the workshop, but about one of the sections of the workshop that produced axial blanks. And the whole workshop had a variety of equipment and a repair site, equipped with everything necessary, up to welding equipment. You can make an airplane there, not just weld a stroller out of sheet metal. This is the level of the vocational school workshop.
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 18: 28 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      Firstly, not a hammer, but a press.

      As Kartsev wrote, so I wrote ... And in general, why these technical details. What for? That's not the point. What a ... kindergarten sandbox ...
      1. Undecim 11 January 2020 19: 28 New
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        There a little lower, "secondly," the essence.
        1. kalibr 11 January 2020 20: 36 New
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          Yes, even "in tenths", not about that. What a manner, as in Lyubec, right. "The princes gathered and began to say for little that great." So here ...
          1. Undecim 11 January 2020 20: 45 New
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            "You need to collect stones that are thrown at you. This is the foundation of the future pedestal."
            Hector Berlioz
            1. kalibr 11 January 2020 22: 26 New
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              Exactly, Viktor Nikolaevich! It’s good that at least you understand this.
          2. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 22: 54 New
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            Quote: kalibr
            "The princes gathered and began to say for little that great."

            So you, too, hit the economy here, started to talk about what is right and what is not. Regarding Kosygin’s reforms, there is also the opinion of Director Okunev:
            Now industry is creeping down

            And Kartsev himself left the factory, no one spread rot, he didn’t have a new director, moreover, Kartsev himself recommended him to the director's post.
            1. kalibr 12 January 2020 20: 50 New
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              Vladimir! Here in VO there was a B-o-ol-shaya article about Kartsev. You type in Kartsev 2013 and read. Do not be afraid to be defiled. I didn’t write it ...
              1. Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 21: 24 New
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                Quote: kalibr
                Do not be afraid to be defiled. I didn’t write it ...

                And what are you unhappy with?
  • 7,62h54 11 January 2020 14: 54 New
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    Kartsev, like Schweik, visited everywhere, stuck his nose, scoffed at everyone.
    1. Mazuta 11 January 2020 18: 11 New
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      This article is so written, I assure you. Minusuyu ...
  • smaug78 11 January 2020 15: 09 New
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    “I served and operated both of these machines and I will say that this is not so. The T-62 was a dead end in development, and it could not surpass the T-55 in any ... specified indicator. " svp67 (Sergey) "is a trustworthy person, a well-known tanker, a fighter or a private opinion that cannot, in principle, be invoked?
    1. Mordvin 3 11 January 2020 15: 15 New
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      Quote: smaug78
      is it a trustworthy person, a well-known tanker, a fighter, or a private opinion that cannot be invoked in principle?

      Do you read comments? So ask, even from the author, even from Sergey.
  • BAI
    BAI 11 January 2020 17: 20 New
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    a seven-ton hammer riveting just one part - an axis for railway cars,

    I think that it wasn’t just one eye that hurt me. Riveting is the process of connecting two elements with metal fasteners - rivets. The so-called "one-piece connection." A riveting tool cannot weigh seven tons, and it cannot participate in the production of a cylindrical object - an axis. The author should know all the more that the riveting process was used when collecting tanks before the introduction of welding technology.
    1. Undecim 11 January 2020 18: 06 New
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      Riveting is the process of connecting two elements with metal fasteners - rivets.
      In this case, the author used the word "riveting" in the slang meaning "to perform a monotonous conveyor work." Therefore, your claims to the author specifically on this issue are unfounded.
      1. kalibr 11 January 2020 18: 39 New
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        Well, thank God!
        1. Undecim 11 January 2020 19: 37 New
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          "The goal of Netsaualkoyotl is a reasonable combination of severity and justice."
          Warwick Bray. Aztecs. Life, religion, culture.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. BAI
        BAI 11 January 2020 23: 00 New
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        And it is necessary to express clearly. Moreover, the author retells Kartsev and one might think that this technically illiterate expression belongs to Kartsev.
    2. kalibr 11 January 2020 18: 43 New
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      Quote: BAI
      A riveting tool cannot weigh seven tons, and it cannot participate in the production of a cylindrical object - an axis.

      God sent you to me, Sergey, to her. You only increase your interest in the original source with such comments. I do not care what stood there, riveted, welded ... This was all from Kartsev in the original. Want to see how close to the text I retold this? Close! There is a link to the source below and a certain Vladimir U also gave an active link to the Network. What more?
      1. BAI
        BAI 11 January 2020 23: 03 New
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        We look at the original:
        Most of all I was surprised by the sealed body to the motorcycle stroller. It was made very carefully. The authorship is behind the mock shop. This workshop made on a seven-ton hammer, only one detail is the car axle, and here is the stroller! The director turned to the head of the workshop: “Moscow, because if I instructed you to make this stroller, you would begin to deny until you had enough kondrashka ... I would, of course, make you do this stroller, but because you, I would probably have asked for at least 50 designers and technologists of all kinds, in addition to the staff, for this business ... ”

        No riveting. To do the pretreatment is forging an axis, one thing, and riveting is another.
        To popularize the memoirs of tank designers is a must, there is a lot of it that is not in the official documents. In addition to Kartsev, there is also "Notes of a multimedia student. BSTU Voenmekh." Stolyarov G.K. But this requires a professional approach, because one wrong word immediately distorts the meaning and raises the question of the competence of the author.
        1. kalibr 12 January 2020 08: 41 New
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          Quote: BAI
          and riveting is completely different.

          Behind the trees, no forest is visible.
  • smaug78 11 January 2020 17: 56 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: smaug78
    is it a trustworthy person, a well-known tanker, a fighter, or a private opinion that cannot be invoked in principle?

    Do you read comments? So ask, even from the author, even from Sergey.

    Why should I ask? If I read on other sites the completely opposite opinion of the tank? Therefore, this is just a private opinion that is not confirmed by other people ...
  • Mazuta 11 January 2020 18: 10 New
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    The article is somehow incomprehensible ...
    Not about Kartsev, not about ed. 166 and the birth of the t-62, and even not a criticism of the Sov. defense ...
    All at once!!!
  • Radikal 11 January 2020 19: 06 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Technical Engineer
    Probably the author holds his nose in the wind

    Poor Kartsev!

    Yes, not Kartsev is “poor”, but the author is a plagiarist-compiler and anti-adviser. In short, a "creative" conjuncturist who fully meets modern requirements. lol wassat tongue
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 20: 45 New
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      Oh, you haven’t been there for a long time! But you write again, so that it’s not your tradition to not think while sitting down at the computer? Look here: I think you will understand. Here are two texts on one topic.
      “The Dnieper looks wonderful on a quiet Ukrainian night, when its waves quietly roll to the sea, illuminated by moonlight. Smooth it as if cast from glass. Quiet in the woods, even the stone does not move and does not thunder from the cliff of mountains that surrounds it ...”
      Novelty by Advego plagiarism - 100%
      “The Dnieper is wonderful in calm weather, when it freely and smoothly rushes its waters through the forests and mountains. Neither it will rattle; .. "
      Novelty by Advego Plagiatus - 0
      N. Gogol
      The first is mine. The second is Gogol. And what kind of plagiarism are you talking about?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Free wind 11 January 2020 19: 46 New
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    I do not want to speak obscene, but sometimes it is necessary ......
  • 75 Sergey 11 January 2020 20: 13 New
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    Something "restructuring" this article stinks, everyone was dedicated, but scribbled denunciations, interfered with work and built a lot of extra tanks, not pots and pans.
    Yes and still did not pay extra, a voucher in his nose! All this was already and the cult of personality was debunked and “let the party steer”, and as a result, the former farmers became fucking specialists in the economy.
    Whom this opus is intended for or they dug it out of moldy cellars, with the desire to convince that everything was bad.
    I do not praise the Kharkov T-64, it has pros and cons, but to be honest I do not always understand when they say that the design has run out of modernization stock, in my opinion, one sees this stock and the other does not.
    What would have happened if the USSR were to produce only BT-41 by the year 7, not to mention fighters and bombers, etc.? would be a priest. According to the author, it was necessary to stop and sculpt only the T-72 with the whole world, although only the T-64A could have been, and why not?
    The T-80 was an excellent machine, but unfortunately it remained at the level of the 80s and did not go the way of evolution and improvement, which is primarily to blame for the plant’s management, who did not realize in time that there wouldn’t be any further like in the USSR.
    Vobschem article should be filtered, because there is a lot of NLP here, they again begin to denigrate the "bright Soviet time", they see that they overdid it with bleaching so that people began to notice the difference.
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 20: 30 New
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      Quote: 75Sergey
      I do not praise the Kharkov T-64, it has pros and cons, but to be honest I do not always understand when they say that the design has run out of modernization stock, in my opinion, one sees this stock and the other does not.

      Are you a more famous tank designer than Kartsev?
      1. 75 Sergey 12 January 2020 20: 54 New
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        Did Kartsev write this opus?
        This is free thinking ...
  • Tank jacket 11 January 2020 21: 03 New
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    Greetings to all who are not indifferent to tank production. I just wanted to remind you that Kharkov is now in occupation. Under American statehood, the city of Kharkiv, so ...
    And yes, in Tagil in the nineties it was very difficult. The lining was held by banduks, Karo, Karasi, Kokorin ...
    So thanks to Putin, I did not let the UVZ and Tagil collapse.
    1. Petrol cutter 11 January 2020 22: 20 New
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      It is very unfortunate to hear this. Especially because my sibling (though ten years older) worked at KhAZ. And ZIM. Excuse me for the flood, let's say this.
      The moment that the comrade has been working for a long time in the Russian Federation, but considers it necessary to live as a UA citizen, kills.
      This is our fundamental disagreement with him. And in this regard, we absolutely will not have consent.
      1. Tank jacket 11 January 2020 22: 30 New
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        Yes, in general, from the reading of the article, the impression was that the UVZ and Lining were poured with mud, saying that we were to blame for the "excessive costs" and because of this the USSR "collapsed" ... The heavy nonsense of the totalitarian liberal ...
        1. kalibr 12 January 2020 08: 39 New
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          Quote: Tank jacket
          Yes, in general, from the reading of the article, the impression was that the UVZ and Lining were poured with mud, saying that we were to blame for the "excessive costs" and because of this the USSR "collapsed" ... The heavy nonsense of the totalitarian liberal ...

          Our Minister of Education complains that there is functional illiteracy. That is, when a person seems to be able to read, but reads anything in the text, except what is there. I see that she has every reason for this. Nothing that you "read" is not there.
          1. Tank jacket 12 January 2020 16: 22 New
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            But what about this: "state leaders made rash decisions." “Tanks began to be produced in unreasonably large quantities. As a result of this, the labor of many thousands of people and large material means were spent in vain, which partly contributed to the collapse of the state. ”
            1. kalibr 12 January 2020 20: 45 New
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              Ruslan, is it really not clear from the text that it was written by the designer Kartsev, who worked there and he really couldn’t throw mud at his native plant, where he was the Chief Designer? This is not a separate plant. It's about a management system. I clearly explained?
              1. Tank jacket 12 January 2020 20: 51 New
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                Vyacheslav, we in the current realities understand that the chief designer was mistaken in the issue of public administration. Could you not write this quote? Purely out of respect for Kartsev.
    2. akims 11 January 2020 22: 39 New
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      Kharkiv is written in Ukrainian, without a soft sign.
      1. Tank jacket 11 January 2020 22: 41 New
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        "In Ukrainian" is written with a hyphen ...
  • Radikal 11 January 2020 21: 05 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    Oh, you haven’t been there for a long time! But you write again, so that it’s not your tradition to not think while sitting down at the computer? Look here: I think you will understand. Here are two texts on one topic.
    “The Dnieper looks wonderful on a quiet Ukrainian night, when its waves quietly roll to the sea, illuminated by moonlight. Smooth it as if cast from glass. Quiet in the woods, even the stone does not move and does not thunder from the cliff of mountains that surrounds it ...”
    Novelty by Advego plagiarism - 100%
    “The Dnieper is wonderful in calm weather, when it freely and smoothly rushes its waters through the forests and mountains. Neither it will rattle; .. "
    Novelty by Advego Plagiatus - 0
    N. Gogol
    The first is mine. The second is Gogol. And what kind of plagiarism are you talking about?

    Mr. Lyapis, I once answered you in response to your creation, again on the “tank” topic, so I consider the question settled. sad
    PS In turn, I would like to draw the attention of the site’s managers to this author, since he seems to be directed to the site by quite definite forces, with the goal of anti-Soviet propaganda and agitation, as well as for veiled trolling of the VO site participants. lol wassat
    1. kalibr 11 January 2020 22: 21 New
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      Quote: Radikal
      since it seems to be directed to the site by quite definite forces

      And not only the administration, but also must be reported to a special organization, yes, with a three-letter name. Vigilance, and again vigilance, comrade!
      1. Ruslan67 11 January 2020 22: 38 New
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        Quote: kalibr
        And not only the administration, but also need to inform a special organization, yes, with a name of three letters

        IPA will arrange?
  • Petrol cutter 11 January 2020 21: 23 New
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    Hmm .. now, apparently, I will reckon with obscene expressions to express myself ... The truth is not about armored forces, but about troops in general.
    Especially in factories working for the defense industry.
    Did you bother Soviet life with tankers ?! With what? I didn’t bother anyone, but directly to the tankmen ...
    "Therefore, in order to make the plant profit, they tried to reduce the complexity of production by introducing ever newer and more productive equipment."
    This is how to understand, order?! ...
    “One of the stations, examining the train, looked under the tarpaulin, saw these refrigerators and immediately called the OBKhSS. As a result, the train arriving from Central Asia with tanks was not allowed into the plant, they were kept“ under arrest ”, and the employees who handed over the money for the refrigerators took a month and a half alternately called for “where necessary” interrogations
    And they did it right.
    "To one of the military representatives who delayed the time of the business trip of several engineers, simply not having put the signature on the necessary report on time, Kartsev said:" In response to your bullying, I will lock you in this room now and will not let out until you sign the report ! "
    This is generally nonsense! Military representatives, they are such military representatives! ....
    Our military representative did not accept the ship for three months. Not that some kind of tank! ... He should have been drowned probably (I suggested) in this ship ?! There are some miracles! ...
  • Eroma 11 January 2020 22: 37 New
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    It was interesting to read, the T62 photo was valid, but what the tanks were afraid of was never written!
    1. BAI
      BAI 11 January 2020 23: 12 New
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      but what the tanks were afraid of was never written!

      The tanks were afraid that the author would start writing about them.
      1. kalibr 12 January 2020 08: 32 New
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        Sergey, do you want to demonstrate your sense of humor or once again quarrel with me? Consider that the author did not write about tanks, Kartsev wrote about tanks. The author only retold his text with comments that do not even apply to the tanks themselves. It seems to be from the text that it just catches your eye, but you don’t see it.
        1. BAI
          BAI 12 January 2020 21: 38 New
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          1. Just kidding, of course. I just don’t have the habit of setting emoticons.
          2. I am not Sergey. Previously introduced.
    2. kalibr 12 January 2020 08: 34 New
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      Quote: Eroma
      but what the tanks were afraid of was never written!

      They were afraid of the system that created them. At the time of the collapse of the USSR, the USSR and the ATS countries had 80 thousand more tanks than in all countries of the world combined. But ... they did not help! "The wall turned out to be rotten"
      1. Tank jacket 12 January 2020 21: 06 New
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        In the world, 25 million unsold cars stand and rot in the open air - the result of the activities of efficient managers and the "invisible hand of the market"
    3. Alexga 12 January 2020 13: 36 New
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      I had fun for several years T-62 prcgkefnhjdfnm / It’s hard to say, the loading process of the gun is complicated, but its foolproofness is above all praise. You can confidently do what is prohibited in the Instructions. Well, of course, I had to think with my head.
      1. Alexga 12 January 2020 14: 40 New
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        prcgkefnhjdfnm /
        Damn, exploit. Litter!
  • Shuttle 12 January 2020 10: 40 New
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    Kartsev explained it in such a way that until 1965 the Stalinist system of government operated in industry, worked clearly and yielded positive results. “Then every year in February the production standards were tightened by 15% by directive. If for the manufacture of any part, for example, one ruble was paid, then from March 1, it’s already 85 kopecks, and next year 72 kopecks, etc. ”

    What a stupid and stupid manipulation. Such a directive reduction in prices was distinctive, i.e. a characteristic feature of Khrushchev’s experiments. The idea of ​​Stalin's cost reduction was a scientific approach and the promotion of not just inventions and rationalization proposals aimed at increasing labor productivity (read, production costs), but implemented ones, i.e. realized results. This was not very difficult. After introducing such an idea, the enterprise (labor collective) used the whole difference between the planned prices and the real value for a whole year. The labor collective sent all the savings to their own needs. Wanted at a general meeting and spent on bonuses, wanted to improve the living conditions or work. After a year, you can monetize the new Ratsuh in the same way. Because the race was even during the war. Therefore, the paradox turned out to be completely inexplicable and incomprehensible to either the capitalists or the late Soviet people - the war, the amount of military costs, the complexity of equipment is growing, and military costs are decreasing.
    The same phenomenon also explains the record pace and the results of the restoration of the post-war economy in the USSR.
    Khrushchev, while fighting the already dead Stalin, also destroyed the Stalinist economy. Of course, it is called Stalinist not because of Stalinist ideas, but only by the time of its existence. After all, these ideas were developed by the best economists of that time. And, as one can now understand by conducting a comparative analysis, probably the best organizers of production and labor in the world at that time.
    By the way, it was Khrushchev’s voluntarism to lower prices and increase prices that was the main reason for the bloody riots in Novocherkassk. Then the workers of the electric locomotive plant were a lot of decision-makers based on decisions that were justified in no way for the Khrushchev-based price reductions to coincide with the increase in prices for some food products. So Khrushchev’s economists tried to plug holes in the budget that arose after the experiments of Nikty Sergeevich.
  • Alexga 12 January 2020 12: 36 New
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    Good day to all! I will express my opinion on the problems of tank construction in the USSR. Now almost all tankers are divided into several groups: T-80 supporters, T-72 supporters and a small group of T-64 supporters. T-64 can be safely considered the ancestor of two other samples. I will say right away that I am among the supporters of EDP products / I only heard about Kartseva, and I had several meetings with General Venediktov. In 1983, there was an ZKV company T-72 on the VI Taiga-83. The general was a very firm and tough leader. Strong man. The last words before our departure were: "Tanks do not regret!". And we squeezed out of them to the maximum. The T-72 tank was created by the tank for the war, but T-80, sorry "to pass the final checks. During the military tests, only the blind man did not see how Popov’s creation was pulled by the ears to make it better, especially when they stand behind it , Popov, member of the Central Committee, State Prize laureate for the development of this tank, Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov, Minister of Defense and laureate of the same prize, deputy chairman of the commission from 38 research institutes.You can talk a lot, but I will give one example. The length of the route for the march is 100 km. It’s been measured, after a march on T-72 and T-64 at speed detectors 100 km, and on T-80 110 km. ndal, but Comrade Popov said that according to the Standard, an error of + 10% is allowed. Well, when divided by the meter readings, hours are obtained. But the most interesting thing was at the end, the T-80 code of the machine completed the task for 6000 km, and the others suffered several tens of kilometers. According to the results, the T-80 fulfilled the test conditions, and the rest didn’t. The managers from UVZ asked us to catch up with the cars, and the company went on the march, violating the requirements of the commission’s leadership. And we complied with the conditions of the Military tests, it cost us state awards, but it was honest with the Plant. Much can be said, this is just one example of pressure on the Ural Car-Building Plant, six-bearing, by the way. I don’t like the T-80, it has a lot of problems, most likely, it was created in the confrontation with the Abrams. But this is a topic for another discussion. I can answer all questions honestly, even here, even in PM.
    1. kalibr 12 January 2020 20: 38 New
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      Dear Alexander! All this is the same, only in other words is written by Kartsev ...
      1. Alexga 12 January 2020 21: 27 New
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        Everything is right, it’s written, but I, as a living participant and witness, can still tell how it was. Honestly, it became a shame for the Power after these tests. 72-ku was saved, probably the only office that defended the State was the KGB military counterintelligence. Before the dispatch, the General ordered us to "We speak with all honesty." It was difficult to talk with "shut up, shut up", they are very in the subject of our affairs.
        1. kalibr 12 January 2020 21: 56 New
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          Quote: AlexGa
          but I, as a living participant and witness, can still tell how it was. Honestly, it became a shame for the Power after these tests.

          Your testimony is all the more valuable. And then you see how some ... not very strong minds diverged here. And it’s a shame for me as a power. He did everything as best as possible, and then on top of the bang ... and it turns out that ... all this was useless. The excretion failed. 9 years of life of a dog under the tail!
    2. Shuttle 13 January 2020 10: 22 New
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      Quote: AlexGa
      .. T-80, forgive me "for passing the final checks. During the military tests, only the blind man did not see how Popov’s creation was pulled by the ears to make it better, especially when they stand for it, Popov, a member of the Central Committee, State Laureate. Prizes for the development of this tank, Dmitry Fedorovich Ustinov, Minister of Defense and laureate of the same prize, deputy chairman of the commission from 38 research institutes ...

      This is a vivid and graphic manifestation of anti-communist ideology, when private interests prevail over public ones. Another step that at least did not contribute to the success of the common cause.
      1. Alexga 13 January 2020 10: 35 New
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        For me, this was an example when people who are supposed to do work for the good of the state are pushed into the background by the interests of the state.
  • xomaNN 12 January 2020 15: 08 New
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    He himself worked in the military-industrial complex of the USSR (shipbuilding and aerospace) the same training ground for passions and confusion of the opinions and characters of designers, technologists, OTC, military representatives ...

    But America was caught up in military power by the beginning of the 80s! wassat
  • tank64rus 12 January 2020 18: 01 New
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    And what is happening now under the "effective managers". What was then so flowers. And now, after visiting the Washington Regional Committee by Siluanov, they dragged further privatization, which included enterprises and institutions of defense importance. This is stupidity or betrayal. As for the effective owners. Sberbank has not yet paid payments for military invalids and widows of military personnel for January, although it was stated that payments will be all December 30, 2019. Like this.
    1. kalibr 13 January 2020 08: 08 New
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      Quote: tank64rus

      tank64rus (Alexander) Yesterday, 18:01
      And what is happening now under the "effective managers". What was then so flowers.

      Now - yes - the time is fun. But now there are no slogans "The people and the party are one", and "Forward, to the victory of communism!" That is, everyone first of all rowing for themselves and doing the right thing. We live once, and if possible, then ... And then ... "they worked for the common good." In words. But in reality they also rowed for themselves. In my opinion, it’s more honest now. Now I’m the boss, you ... I’m rich, you are poor, it means I’m smart, and you ... And then everything was the same, but ... it was necessary to cover it all with words about caring for a working man, the interests of working people, proletarian internationalism ... although the essence was one!
  • Nikolai Shepherd 12 January 2020 18: 59 New
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    I wildly apologize - not a tanker, I would be silent in a rag. But ...
    The author compares the T-80 and T-72 - "he spent much more fuel (i.e., about 1,6-1,8 times) per kilometer of track, and although his stock on the tank was significantly increased, the power reserve itself he declined while at the same time by 25-30%.
    In addition, the T-80 was used fighting compartment, taken from the T-64A. And it used vertical stacking of shots, which in a battle, according to Kartsev, reduced the survivability of the tank. Another drawback was the impossibility of direct communication of tankers who were in the tower with the driver, and especially his evacuation in case of injury. On the whole, this tank was more complex, more expensive and less reliable. "
    In my opinion, completely different tanks with different engines, due to different purposes in battle. T-80 is a breakthrough tank, and the author, in my opinion, writes about an object in which a fig does not fumble.
    1. kalibr 12 January 2020 20: 35 New
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      Quote: Nikolai Shepherd
      and the author, in my opinion, writes about a subject in which a fig does not fumble.

      The author, for the most part, is the designer of the T-72 Kartsev tank, in any case with regard to technology. Is it really incomprehensible from the text? And why is a link to the source given? Was it really not at all interesting to glance and compare?
  • Basarev 12 January 2020 20: 00 New
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    As you can see, the Union was indeed an empire - in its worst sense - with a spoiled nobility in endless privileges, which anyone could order, without even understanding the subject.
    1. Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 21: 49 New
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      Quote: Basarev
      As you can see, the Union was indeed an empire - in its worst sense - with a spoiled nobility

      Give examples.
      1. kalibr 12 January 2020 21: 58 New
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        Quote: mordvin xnumx
        with spoiled nobility

        Party nomenclature. And examples ... are satisfied for now with the words "should I not know."
        1. Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 22: 03 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: mordvin xnumx
          with spoiled nobility

          You don’t have to hang someone else’s on me.
          Quote: kalibr
          be satisfied for now with the words "shall I not know."

          Yeah ... And it is visible, instead of preserving your values, you simply sold them.
          1. kalibr 12 January 2020 22: 10 New
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            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            It is visible, instead of preserving your values, you simply sold them.

            Not understood? What values ​​should be kept? Party? From the Communist Party immediately to the Communist Party to move? Well, neither I nor my other colleagues knew her and didn’t do that. They considered it, let it show itself ... And what to sell, the knowledge gained in the work on the Ph.D. on the history of the CPSU? And any knowledge is sold, you didn’t know. What knowledge, what pasta. Good and bad memory are also for sale. The first is good, the second is bad.
            1. Mordvin 3 12 January 2020 22: 35 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              What values ​​should be kept? Party? From the Communist Party immediately to the Communist Party to move? Well, neither I nor my other colleagues knew her and didn’t do that.

              Conscience, Vyacheslav Olegovich, conscience ...
              1. kalibr 13 January 2020 07: 57 New
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                Funny you, Vladimir, by golly! What a conscience, what are you talking about. You have been deceived shamelessly all your life, you have presented shit as a blessing, forced to serve shit and worship him, and then the shit also said - "you don’t need more, your own skin is more expensive." What conscience are we talking about? You yourself scribble it from the dugout of the partisan detachment "Fidelity of the USSR" Yes? From there? Or how? Or how! And if so, then you do not need beautiful phrases, themselves in this same from head to toe. For the future, know if the mind is not enough to understand that one knowledge crosses out another! Knowledge is changing, beliefs are changing, like gloves according to the weather. Only the full ones behave differently (the word forbidden in VO), which they say is shaved, and they are clipped! Or ignoramuses who know nothing. And not wanting to know. Choose who you are closer to ...
                1. Mordvin 3 13 January 2020 08: 51 New
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                  Quote: kalibr
                  You yourself scribble it from the dugout of the partisan detachment "Fidelity of the USSR" Yes? From there? Or how? Or how!

                  I can say from the apartment that we were given in the USSR, and which I would get the hell out of while working on a similar job today.
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Choose who you are closer to ...

                  Yes, certainly not to people like you, changeling.
                  1. kalibr 13 January 2020 09: 50 New
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                    That is, you are a wrestler in words, and then only in VO, anonymously. Why so liquid? And all the fruits of democracy are using. Do you glue leaflets on the fences? "Down with the compradors, back to the USSR"? No, where do you go ... And as for the apartment ... So in Penza we built the whole city of Sputnik (see Network!) And there all the apartments are there for money, but ... people are buying. Masses. So they know how to make money! And you, therefore, cannot earn? What is missing? Well, now it’s certainly clear what. Judging by your comments (and, by the way, I already wrote about this to you) - crazy! And what is not, you can’t invest it already!
                    1. Mordvin 3 13 January 2020 10: 45 New
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                      Quote: kalibr
                      there are all apartments for money, but ... people are buying. Masses. So they know how to make money!

                      I know how and who buys what. So do not blow into the pipe. Example: a friend got an apartment from her grandfather. Sold, bought in a new house, climbed on credit. There wasn’t something like the wallpaper didn’t smell, there wasn’t even a toilet. For three years, it somehow rebuilt.
                      And knowing how to make money is about nothing. What do you know how to do? Advise how to transfer money to offshore? Do some Tatar do hidden advertising? Well, so can I. I just don’t want to. It's disgusting.
                      1. kalibr 13 January 2020 11: 10 New
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                        [quote = Mordvin 3] Well, I can do that too. I just don’t want to. [
                        "Green grapes"
                      2. Mordvin 3 13 January 2020 11: 17 New
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                        Quote: kalibr
                        "Green grapes"

                        You are corrupt, Shpakovsky. You, telling your students about the history of the CPSU, at the same time pulled on your American pants. We had the same political instructor. At the time when he was telling nm that we were snickering and buying harmful goods from the west, he was peeping Montana on his hand.
                      3. kalibr 20 January 2020 14: 29 New
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                        And you too, since not in the dugout of the partisan detachment. The bourgeois in words. And in words because ... big money to people like you do not give. Therefore, they consider everyone who is given dishonest, and themselves, stupid, honest. This is so clear, Vladimir. And they want significance, right? Well, at least I bite ...
                      4. Mordvin 3 20 January 2020 14: 33 New
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                        Quote: kalibr
                        And they want significance, right?

                        Imagine no. However, people like you do not understand this.
  • Private-K 13 January 2020 01: 05 New
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    Quote: 75Sergey
    The T-80 was an excellent machine, but unfortunately it remained at the level of the 80s and did not go the way of evolution and improvement, which is primarily to blame for the plant’s management, who did not realize in time that there wouldn’t be any further like in the USSR.

    Something strange you write. The T-80 line was cut off for two reasons:
    - the destruction of the Leningrad / St. Petersburg design bureau, which "led" the topic;
    - Nizhny Tagil plant and its design bureaus remained monopolists and were remembered by everyone.
    In general, the T-80 was an incomparably more promising machine than the T-72 and was planned as the basis of the Soviet tank forces in the 1990s, for which its production was developed at the Kharkov plant.
  • Shuttle 13 January 2020 10: 39 New
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    Yes, this is your Kartsev straight to the wall and to the museum!
    Therefore, in order to make a profit, the factory tried to reduce the labor intensity of production, introducing ever newer and more productive equipment or completely “Soviet” laying in the norms an extra “fat”, so that later there would be something to tighten. However, this is wrong. In fact, this same "fat" is nothing more than a direct deception of its own state of workers and peasants, the Soviet people and "universal justice." And what did such a postscript policy lead to? L. Kartsev gives an example: “the laboriousness of manufacturing T-55 and T-62 tanks was almost the same, and due to an improvement in the combat characteristics of the latter, its price was 15% higher than that of the T-55 tank." But this is wrong! The weapon manufacturing plant should be based on actual labor costs, and not on which product is “better” and which is “worse”. Moreover, the approach to lowering prices with the aim of introducing a new technique is incorrect. We need a scientific calculation of increasing labor productivity based on the introduction of new technology, a plan for this calculation, because it was planning that was the basis of our society, and a new equipment for the plan. And after that, their application would give a result, it would be possible to reduce prices, since this would not have affected the wages of workers. This is the only possible approach in a socially oriented state.

    How so? In 1965, did man have no thoughts at all? 15-20 years ago, labor productivity first grew at the expense of implemented by the thousands of labor collectives of ideas. And then the best of these realized and proven ideas were distributed throughout the country. This was the very different, Stalinist approach. He was well remembered in the 65th.

    In general, the expression "socially-oriented state" betrays complete political and economic illiteracy in the mouth of the proletariat. On the lips of an explicit or secret capitalist, all sorts of oxymorons such as a “socially oriented,” “popular,” “popular” state are only a hoax. The state is an apparatus of violence, coercion, without which political domination is impossible.
  • Shuttle 13 January 2020 10: 59 New
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    Moreover, Kartsev himself in his memoirs repeatedly critical of N.S. Khrushchev, but here is his brainchild, as the economic councils, as you see, the chief designer of tanks liked.

    Economic councils are when instead of proletarian machine and tractor stations they created a working class in the countryside, i.e. creating a link between the village and the city, which contributed to blurring the lines between the city and the village.
    Capitalists only closer to the end of the 20th century thought of ideas like MTS. They just called it agricultural holdings, i.e. when equipment is hired to cultivate the land. Those. the equipment does not stand idle, is intensively used and proactively repaired by specialized personnel.
    1. Dmitry V. 20 January 2020 12: 18 New
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      Quote: Shuttle
      they just called it agricultural holdings, i.e. when equipment is hired to cultivate the land. Those. the equipment does not stand idle, is intensively used and proactively repaired by specialized personnel.


      You confuse the concepts:
      MTS is a technical superstructure on collective farms, not directly subordinate to them and not interested in the result of work (harvest). The head of the MTS didn’t care where to provide the equipment - where the grain was crumbling or where it was planned according to the plan - he did not submit to the leadership of the collective farms. The collective farm chairman acted as a petitioner in front of MTS.
      Agroholding - has owners who are interested in the final result of activities and are much more flexible managed by mechanized means, in its interests to remove without loss. It is flexible to change the sowing and harvesting schedules and thereby spread the time of the sowing / harvesting peak and reduce the losses and empty runs of equipment.
      In the Russian Federation, 27 large agricultural holdings crushed agriculture, displacing farmers from the land.
      As a result, they can dictate prices to the market (tripling the price of sunflower oil and sugar as an indicator of the price dictate) and at the same time declare that it is more profitable for them to sell abroad than on the domestic market - although they received soft loans and subsidies from the state! That is, even such a direction in the Russian Federation, the state could not develop wisely.
      1. Shuttle 20 January 2020 13: 42 New
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        Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich

        You confuse the concepts:
        MTS is a technical superstructure on collective farms, not directly subordinate to them and not interested in the result of work (harvest). The head of the MTS didn’t care where to provide the equipment - where the grain was crumbling or where it was planned according to the plan - he did not submit to the leadership of the collective farms. The collective farm chairman acted as a petitioner in front of MTS.
        Agroholding - has owners who are interested in the final result of activities and are much more flexible managed by mechanized means, in its interests to remove without loss. It is flexible to change the sowing and harvesting schedules and thereby spread the time of the sowing / harvesting peak and reduce the losses and empty runs of equipment.
        In the Russian Federation, 27 large agricultural holdings crushed agriculture, displacing farmers from the land.
        As a result, they can dictate prices to the market (tripling the price of sunflower oil and sugar as an indicator of the price dictate) and at the same time declare that it is more profitable for them to sell abroad than on the domestic market - although they received soft loans and subsidies from the state! That is, even such a direction in the Russian Federation, the state could not develop wisely.


        It's good that you thoughtfully read my message. However, let me object to some aspects that, it seems to me, can change your judgment regarding confusion in concepts. Of course, the agricultural holding has never been MTS. Neither by form of ownership, nor by internal organization, nor by the method of cultivating land, nor by anything. At the same time, the agricultural holding has something in common with MTS. First of all, it is precisely the interest in the final result. The fact is that in this case, you, as if considering MTS as a phantom without a master, are seriously mistaken. They had a master. Moreover, the real capitalist master is the state. A state that, with the help of the MTS, dictated its economic will to agriculture. The state was interested in the final result. The state had no less, or even more funds to control the funds, than the owners of modern agricultural holdings. T.O. Your thesis about the “disinterest of the head of MTS” does not hold water. The head of MTS was interested precisely in the implementation of the plan. State plan. Those. that plan, which was not drawn up to achieve specific super-indicators in a particular place, but to perform a common task.
        The task of "clean without loss" is not feasible in principle, which of course comes down to the task of maximizing the result while minimizing the costs of cleaning is not an end in itself, even in agricultural holdings. The goal is to maximize profits. That is why there is a cash monopolization of the market and the associated pricing charms described by you. The state, planned approach to creating public ownership of the means of production in the countryside has a different goal setting. That's why his results are completely different. Fortunately, most rural workers felt this difference, which is called their own skin. Therefore, it turned out that during the so-called Stalinomics prices were falling, and with the Khrushchevs who destroyed it, the main driving mechanism - the initiative of the workers' groups - rushed up.
        T.O. outwardly, it may seem that I compared MTS and agricultural holdings with each other as such. This is a definite mistake. My analogy was only in terms of the intensity of use of technology.
  • tank64rus 19 January 2020 09: 07 New
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    Eternal Memory and Glory to the creators of Soviet tanks!
  • Dmitry V. 20 January 2020 12: 03 New
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    Book Kartsev L.N. “Memories of the chief designer of tanks” is not bad for a general understanding of the system in which the author “cooked”.
    Somewhat biased, the author gives his exclusivity in the field of tank building, despite all his merits (no doubt a talented organizer and engineer), with his departure the plant did not collapse and did not stop.
    This suggests that the GK is of course a figure, but the development of an armored topic, and even more so production, is not based on one chief designer.
    In our country, other research institutes have been producing piles of waste paper for years and giving birth to nothing but papers for decades, instead - a management crisis - incompetent task setting, a misunderstanding of the development vector - it is so convenient for some officials of the USSR and the Russian Federation to sit in their posts, giving meager results or mountains of useless reports ...
    1. kalibr 20 January 2020 14: 31 New
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      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      Somewhat biased, the author gives his exclusivity in the field of tank building, despite all his merits (no doubt a talented organizer and engineer), with his departure the plant did not collapse and did not stop.
      This suggests that the GK is of course a figure, but the development of an armored topic, and even more so production, is not based on one chief designer.
      In our country, other research institutes have been producing piles of waste paper for years and giving birth to nothing but papers for decades, instead - a management crisis - incompetent task setting, a misunderstanding of the development vector - it is so convenient for some officials of the USSR and the Russian Federation to sit in their posts, giving meager results or mountains of useless reports ...

      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
    2. Mikhail3 5 February 2020 13: 27 New
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      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      with his departure, the plant did not collapse and did not stop.

      Soviet factories did not stop even when their products completely ceased to function when they were first turned on. Examples of this are darkness, take at least Colchis or Baku air conditioners. The funny thing is that right on, in your own text, describes what happened to the plant after a talented group of companies, which no one replaced. Yes, went production of very average scall and reports mountain.
      And all this, of course, testifies that the "development of the theme" in the USSR was solely and exclusively on the Civil Code, and their opponents did not and did not even possess elementary logic. But the "heavy" climbed to the posts while the Civil Code worked ...
  • Pyctam 25 January 2020 10: 18 New
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    It seems to me? Or myself? The title of the article seems to be about tanks, but in the article itself about these same tanks one and a half words ... belay
  • Mikhail3 5 February 2020 13: 13 New
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    The Soviet management system allowed to achieve the greatest results. But its unconditional limitation was that almost all leadership positions should be assigned to people with extensive knowledge in the profile and, even more important, with the ability to apply such knowledge.
    However, it was not possible to create a system in which access to power structures would be limited, as they said then, to careerists.
    The NKVD and the KGB were clearly trying to do something, but they themselves had the same problems, and besides, there wasn’t the main thing - a suitable control theory that would allow creating the necessary filters. The work of creating such filters was sabotaged and destroyed all the time by those who HAVE ALREADY BEEN in the country's management systems, and at the same time held their posts by law.
    Power lovers, careerists, all sorts of fraudsters, of whom power in any country of our doomed world consists, are desperately fighting each other for power and money. But they instantly unite, sacrificing even the loot (which they never do, never for anything else) in order to oust the most suitable specialist from the power structures.
    Specialists are the natural enemy of all this scum. But they have a vulnerability - experts, that is, creators, creators, spend their main energy and available resources on creation. Thanks to what scammers ALWAYS defeat them. For the simple reason that fraudsters spend all their strength and money on seizing power and destroying rivals, and the fact that in this case the business is not done and the worst is destroyed, the power lovers are not interested.
    Here you are, comrades, the irreparable cause of the collapse of all and all sorts of efforts both in ours and in all other states.
  • tank64rus 16 February 2020 10: 22 New
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    Soviet tanks were afraid of fools, bosses, Russian "effective managers" and this is much worse.