Military Review

How Mongol-Tatars Rus conquered

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Steppe Yubermensh on the tireless Mongolian horse (Mongolia, 1911 year)



Historiography of the invasion of the Mongol-Tatars (or the Tatar-Mongols, or the Tatars and the Mongols, and so on, as you like) in Russia has more than 300 years. This invasion became a generally accepted fact from the end of the 17th century, when one of the founders of Russian Orthodoxy, the German Innocent Gizel wrote the first textbook on stories Russia - "Synopsis". According to this book, the native history of the Russian hollowed all subsequent 150 years. However, so far none of the historians have taken the liberty to make a “road map” of the campaign of Khan Baty in the winter of 1237-1238 to North-Eastern Russia.

That is, take and calculate how many tireless Mongolian horses and warriors passed, what they ate and so on. The Interpreter's blog, due to its limited resources, tried to correct this flaw.

A bit of prehistory

At the end of the XII century, a new leader appeared among the Mongolian tribes - Temuchin, who managed to unite most of them around him. In 1206, he was proclaimed on a kurultai (analogous to the Congress of People's Deputies of the USSR) by the common Mongol khan under the nickname Genghis Khan, who created the notorious “nomadic state”. Without losing a minute later, the Mongols set about conquering the surrounding territories. By the 1223 year, when the Mongol detachment of commanders Jabe and Subudai collided with the Russian-Polovtsian army on the Kalka river, zealous nomads managed to conquer territories from Manchuria in the east to Iran, the southern Caucasus and modern western Kazakhstan, defeating the state of Khorezmshah and capturing part of northern China.

In 1227, Genghis Khan died, but his heirs continued their conquests. By 1232, the Mongols reached the middle Volga, where they fought with the nomadic Polovtsy and their allies - the Volga Bulgars (the ancestors of the modern Volga Tatars). In the 1235 year (according to other data, in the 1236 year), a decision was made on a kurultai on a global campaign against the Kipchaks, Bulgarians and Russians, and further to the West. This campaign was led by the grandson of Genghis Khan - Khan Batu (Batu). Here we must make a retreat. In the 1236-1237 years, the Mongols, who had led fighting at that time in vast areas from modern Ossetia (against the Alans) to the modern Volga republics, seized Tatarstan (Volga Bulgaria) and began concentrating against the Russian principalities in the fall of 1237.

How Mongol-Tatars Rus conquered

Empire Planetary Scale


In general, why the nomads from the shores of Kerulen and Onon needed the conquest of Ryazan or Hungary is not really known. All attempts by historians to substantiate such agility of the Mongols, look rather pale. Regarding the Western campaign of the Mongols (1235-1243 years), they came up with a bike that the attack on the Russian principalities was a measure to secure their flank and destroy the potential allies of their main Polovtsi enemies (partially the Polovtsi left for Hungary, but the majority of them became the ancestors of modern Kazakhs). True, neither the Ryazan principality, nor Vladimir-Suzdal, nor the so-called. The Novgorod Republic were never allies of either the Polovtsy or the Volga Bulgars.

Also, almost all historiography about the Mongols does not really say anything about the principles of the formation of their armies, the principles of controlling them, and so on. At the same time, it was believed that the Mongols formed their tumens (field operative units), including from the conquered peoples, nothing was paid for the service to the soldier, they were threatened with the death penalty for any offense.

The scientists tried to explain the successes of the nomads this way and that, but each time it turned out pretty funny. Although, ultimately, the level of organization of the Mongolian army, from intelligence to communications, could be envied by the armies of the most developed countries of the 20th century (although after the end of the era of wonderful campaigns, the Mongols — after 30 years after the death of Genghis Khan — instantly lost all their skills). For example, it is believed that the head of the Mongolian intelligence commander Subudai, maintained relations with the Pope of Rome, the German-Roman emperor, Venice, and so on.

Moreover, the Mongols, of course, during their military campaigns acted without any radio communications, railways, road transport, and so on. In Soviet times, historians interlaced the traditional fantasy by that time about the steppe Jubermensch who did not know fatigue, hunger, fear, etc., with a classic ritual on the field of the class-formation approach:

With a total recruitment to the army, every dozen kibitok had to put from one to three soldiers, depending on need, and provide them with food. Weapon in peacetime was stored in special warehouses. It was the property of the state and was issued to the soldiers when they marched. Upon returning from a hike, each soldier was obliged to surrender their weapons. The soldiers did not receive their salaries, but they themselves paid taxes with horses or other cattle (one head each with a hundred heads). During the war, each soldier had an equal right to use loot, a certain part of which was obliged to surrender to the khan. In the periods between campaigns, the army was sent for community service. One day a week was assigned for the service of khan.

The organization of the troops was based on the decimal system. The army was divided into tens, hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands (tumans or darkness), headed by foremen, centurions and tysyatskie. The leaders had separate tents and a reserve of horses and weapons.

The main branch of the army was cavalry, which was divided into heavy and light. Heavy cavalry led the battle with the main forces of the enemy. Light cavalry carried guard service and led reconnaissance. She tied the battle, disrupting the enemy ranks with the help of arrows. The Mongols were excellent bow shooters. Light cavalry pursued the enemy. The cavalry had a large number of clockwork (spare) horses, which allowed the Mongols to move very quickly over long distances. A special feature of the Mongolian army was the complete absence of a wheeled wagon train. Only the tents of the Khan and especially notable persons were transported in carts ...

Each soldier had a file for sharpening arrows, an awl, a needle, threads and a sieve for sifting flour or filtering turbid water. The rider had a small tent, two tursuk (leather bags): one for water, the other for cool (dried sour cheese). If the food supply dried up, the Mongols bleed the horses and drank it. In this way, they could be content with 10 days.

In general, the term "Mongol-Tatars" (or Tatar-Mongols) is very bad. It sounds like Croatian-Indians or Finno-Negroes, if we talk about its meaning. The fact is that the Russians and the Poles, who had come across nomads in the 15th-17th centuries, called them the same - the Tatars. Later, the Russians often transferred this to other peoples who had nothing to do with the nomadic Turks in the Black Sea steppes. The Europeans, who for a long time considered Russia (then Muscovy) Tataria (more precisely, Tartary), made their contribution to this mess, which led to very fancy designs.


View of the French on Russia in the middle of the XVIII century


Anyway, that the Tatars who attacked Russia and Europe were also Mongols, society learned only at the beginning of the 19th century, when Christian Kruse published “Atlas and tables for viewing the history of all European lands and states from their first population to of our times. " Then the idiotic term joyfully picked up already and Russian historians.

Particular attention should also be paid to the number of conquerors. Naturally, no documentary data on the size of the Mongolian army reached us, and the most ancient and unquestionably trusted historians source is the historical work of the authors' team led by the Iranian state official Hulaguid Rashid-ad-Din “List of Chronicles“. It is believed that it was written in the beginning of the XIV century in Persian, though it only surfaced at the beginning of the XIX century, the first partial edition in French was published in 1836 year. Up until the middle of the 20th century, this source was not completely translated and published.

According to Rashid ad-Din, by 1227 (the year of the death of Genghis Khan), the total number of the army of the Mongolian Empire was 129 thousand people. If Plano Carpini is to be believed, then 10 years later the army of phenomenal nomads made 150 thousands of Mongols proper and 450 thousands more people recruited in a “voluntary-compulsory” order from subject nations. Pre-revolutionary Russian historians estimated the size of the Batu army concentrated in the autumn of 1237 at the borders of the Ryazan principality, from 300 to 600 thousand people. At the same time, it seemed self-evident that every nomad had 2-3 horses.

By the standards of the Middle Ages, such armies look absolutely monstrous and implausible, it is necessary to recognize. However, blaming learned men for fantasy is too cruel for them. Hardly anyone of them could even imagine a couple of tens of thousands of cavalry warriors with 50-60 thousands of horses, not to mention the obvious problems with managing such a mass of people and providing them with food. Since history is an inaccurate science, and indeed not a science at all, everyone here can appreciate the run of fantasy researchers. We will use the already classic estimate of the number of Batu's army in 130-140 thousand people, which was proposed by the Soviet scientist V.V. Kargolov. His assessment (like everyone else, completely sucked from the finger, if to speak extremely seriously) in historiography, however, is prevalent. In particular, it is shared by the largest contemporary Russian researcher in the history of the Mongolian empire, R.P. Khrapachevsky.

From Ryazan to Vladimir



In the autumn of 1237, the Mongol detachments, who had fought throughout the spring and summer in vast areas from the North Caucasus, the Lower Don, and to the middle Volga region, were attached to the general gathering place, the Onuz River. It is believed that this is the Tsna River in the modern Tambov region. Probably, some Mongol detachments also gathered in the upper reaches of the Voronezh and Don rivers. There is no exact date for the start of the Mongols ’speech against the Ryazan principality, but it can be assumed that it took place no later than December 1 of 1237 in any case. That is, steppe nomads with an almost half-million herd of horses decided to go hiking in fact in the winter. This is important for renovation.

In the valleys of the Lesnoy and Polny Voronezh rivers, as well as the tributaries of the Pronya river, the Mongolian army, moving in one or more columns, passes through the wooded watershed of the Oka and Don rivers. The embassy of the Ryazan prince Fyodor Yuryevich arrives to them, which turned out to be unsuccessful (they kill the prince), and somewhere in the same region the Mongols meet the Ryazan army in the field. In a fierce battle, they destroy it, and then they move upstream of Prone, robbing and destroying small Ryazan cities - Izeslavets, Belgorod, Pronsk, and burning Mordovian and Russian villages.

Here we need to make a small clarification: we do not have accurate data on the number of people in what was then North-Eastern Russia, but if we follow the reconstruction of modern scientists and archaeologists (V.P. Darkevich, M.N. Tikhomirov, A.V. Kuza), then it was not large and, moreover, it was characterized by a low population density. For example, the largest city of the Ryazan land, Ryazan, was estimated by V.P. Darkevich, a maximum of 6-8 thousand people, about 10-14 thousand people could live in the agricultural district of the city (within a radius of 20-30 kilometers). The remaining cities had a few hundred people, at best, like Moore, up to a couple of thousand. Based on this, it is unlikely that the total population of the Ryazan principality could exceed 200-250 thousand people.

Of course, to conquer such a “proto-state” 120-140, thousands of warriors were more than an excess number, but we will stick to the classic version.

16 December Mongols after marching to 350-400 kilometers (that is, the average daily transition rate is here to 18-20 kilometers) go to Ryazan and begin its siege - they build a wooden fence around the city, build stone-throwing machines with which they lead shelling of the city. In general, historians admit that the Mongols achieved incredible - by the standards of the time - success in the siege case. For example, historian R.P. Khrapachevsky seriously believes that the Mongols were able to literally, in a day or two, bury any stone-throwing machines on the spot from the forest at hand:

There was everything necessary for assembling kamnemetov - there were enough specialists from China and Tangut in the combined army of the Mongols ..., and Russian forests supplied the Mongols with timber for the assembly of siege weapons in abundance.

Finally, December 21 Ryazan fell after a fierce assault.

We also have no clear evidence of what the climatic conditions were in December 1239, but since the Mongols chose ice on the way to travel (there was no other way to go through the woodland, the first permanent roads in North-Eastern Russia are documented only in XIV century), we can assume that it was already a normal winter with frost, perhaps snow.

Also important is the question of what the Mongolian horses ate during this campaign. From the works of historians and modern studies of steppe horses, it is clear that it was a question of very unpretentious, small ones - growth at the withers to 110-120 centimeters, horsemen. Their main food is hay and grass. In natural habitats, they are unpretentious and hardy enough, and in the winter during tebenevki they are able to break the snow in the steppes and eat last year's grass.

On the basis of this, historians unanimously believe that thanks to these properties, the question of feeding horses during the campaign of 1237-1238 in the winter in Russia was not. Meanwhile, it is not difficult to notice that the conditions in this region (the thickness of the snow cover, the area of ​​grass stands, as well as the general quality of the phytocenoses) differ from, say, Halhi or Turkestan. In addition, the winter snowstorm of the steppe horses consists of the following: a herd of horses slowly, walking a few hundred meters a day, moves across the steppe, looking for rotten grass under the snow. Animals thus save their energy costs. However, in the campaign against Russia, these horses had to pass 10-20-30 and even more kilometers (see below) in the cold in the cold, carrying luggage or a warrior. Did the horses manage to replenish their energy costs in such conditions?

After the capture of Ryazan, the Mongols began to move towards the fortress of Kolomna, which is a kind of "gate" to the Vladimir-Suzdal land. Having traveled 130 kilometers from Ryazan to Kolomna, according to Rashid ad-Din and R.P. Khrapachevsky, the Mongols at this fortress "stuck" to 5 or even 10 in January 1238 of the year. On the other hand, a strong Vladimir army is moving to Kolomna, which, probably, the Grand Duke Yury Vsevolodovich equipped immediately after receiving the news about the fall of Ryazan (he and the Chernigov Prince refused to assist Ryazan). The Mongols send an embassy to him with a proposal to become their tributary, but the negotiations also fail (according to the Laurentian Chronicle - the prince agrees to pay tribute, but still sends troops near Kolomna).

According to V.V. Kargalov and R.P. Khrapachevsky, the battle of Kolomna began no later than 9 in January and lasted as long as 5 days (according to Rashid ad-Din). Here a natural question immediately arises - historians are confident that the military forces of the Russian principalities were generally modest and corresponded to the reconstructions of the era when the army at 1-2 was thousands of people standard, and 4-5 and more than thousands of people represented a huge army. It is unlikely that Prince Vladimir of Vladimir Yevgeny Vsevolodovich could collect more (if you make a retreat: the total population of Vladimir land, according to various estimates, varied within 400-800 thousand people, but all of them were scattered over a vast territory, and the population of the capital city of land - Vladimir, even for the most daring reconstructions, did not exceed 15-25 thousand people). Nevertheless, under Kolomna the Mongols were stuck for several days, and the intensity of the battle shows the fact of the death of Chingizid Kulkan - the son of Genghis Khan.

After the victory at Kolomna, either in a three- or a five-day battle, the Mongols boldly move on the ice of the Moscow River towards the future Russian capital. The distance in 100 kilometers they literally pass over 3-4 of the day (the average daily march rate is 25-30 kilometers): in the opinion of R.P. Khrapachev siege of Moscow nomads began on January 15 (according to NM Karamzin - January 20). The quick Mongols caught the Muscovites off guard - they didn’t even know about the results of the battle of Kolomna, and after a five-day siege, Moscow shared the fate of Ryazan: the city was burned down, all of its inhabitants were exterminated or hijacked.

It is worth noting here that all historians recognize the fact of the movement of Mongol-Tatars without a wagon train. Say, unpretentious nomads he was not needed. Then it is not entirely clear what fact and how the Mongols moved their stone-throwing machines, projectiles to them, forges (for repairing weapons, making up for losing arrowheads, etc.), how were the prisoners hijacked. Since for all the time the archaeological excavations in the territory of North-Eastern Russia were not found a single burial of the "Mongol-Tatars", some historians even agreed to the version that the nomads took their dead people back to the steppes (V.P. Darkevich, V. .V. Kargalov). Of course, it is not even worthwhile to raise the question of the fate of the wounded or sick in this light (otherwise our historians will come to the conclusion that they were eaten, a joke) ...

Nevertheless, having spent about a week in the environs of Moscow and plundering its agricultural kontado, the Mongols moved along the ice of the Klyazma River (crossing the forest divide between this river and the Moscow River) to Vladimir. Having passed 7 days over 140 kilometers (average daily march speed is about 20 kilometers), nomads of February 2 1238 of the year begin the siege of the capital of Vladimir land. By the way, it is on this transition that the Mongolian army in 120-140 thousand people are “caught” by the tiny detachment of the Ryazan boyar Yevpaty Kolovrat either in 700, or in 1700 a man against whom the Mongols — from impotence — are forced to use stone-throwing machines to overcome it ( It is worth considering that the legend of Kolovrat was written down, as historians believe, only in the 15th century, so ... it is difficult to consider it fully documentary).

Let us ask an academic question: what is a general army in 120-140 thousand people with almost 400 thousand horses (and it’s not clear if there is a wagon?) Moving on the ice of some river Oka or Moscow? The simplest calculations show that even moving in front of the 2 kilometer (in reality, the width of these rivers is significantly smaller), such an army in the most ideal conditions (all go with the same speed, observing the minimum distance) stretches at least 30-40 kilometers. Interestingly, none of the Russian scientists over the past 200 years even asked such a question, believing that giant cavalry armies are literally flying through the air.

In general, at the first stage of the invasion of Batu Khan to North-Eastern Russia - from 1 December 1237 to 2 in February 1238, the conditional Mongolian horse passed about 750 kilometers, which gives the average daily movement in 12 kilometers. But if you throw out from the calculations, at least 15 days of standing in the Oka floodplain (after taking Ryazan on December 21 and the battle of Kolomna), as well as a week of rest and looting near Moscow, the Mongolian cavalry’s average daily march will improve significantly to 17 kilometers per day.

This is not to say that these are some record march paces (the Russian army during the war with Napoleon, for example, made 30-40 kilometer daily transitions), the interest here is that all this happened in deep winter, and such rates were maintained quite a long time.

From Vladimir to Kozelsk


On the fronts of the Great Patriotic War of the XIII century


Vladimir Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich, learning about the Mongols coming, left Vladimir, leaving with a small retinue in the Trans-Volga region - there, in the middle of windbreaks on the Sit River, he set up camp and waited for the reinforcements from his brothers - Yaroslav (father of Alexander Nevsky) and Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich. There are very few warriors left in the city headed by the sons of Yuri - Vsevolod and Mstislav. Despite this, the Mongols were carrying 5 days with the city, bombarding it with stone-throwers, taking it only after the February assault on 7. But before that, a small detachment of nomads headed by Subudai managed to burn Suzdal.

After the capture of Vladimir, the Mongolian army is divided into three parts. The first and largest part under the command of Batu goes from Vladimir to the north-west through the impassable forests of the Klyazma and Volga watershed. The first march is from Vladimir to Yuryev-Polsky (about 60-65 kilometers). Then the army is divided - part goes exactly to the north-west to Pereyaslavl (about 60 kilometers), after a five-day siege this city fell, then the Mongols go to Ksnyatin (another about 100 kilometers), to Kashin (30 kilometers), then turn to the west and on the ice the Volga move to Tver (from Ksnyatin in a straight line a little more than 110 kilometers, but go along the Volga, all 250-300 kilometers are obtained there).

The second part goes through deaf forests of the Volga, Oka and Klyazma watershed from Yuryev-Polsky to Dmitrov (in a straight line about 170 kilometers), then after taking it - to Volok-Lamsky (130-140 kilometers), from there to Tver (about 120 kilometers) , after taking Tver - to Torzhok (together with the units of the first part) - in a straight line it is about 60 kilometers, but, apparently, they walked along the river, so there will be at least 100 kilometers. The Mongols came to Torzhok already 21 February - 14 days after leaving Vladimir.

Thus, the first part of the Batu detachment in 15 days passes, at least, 500-550 kilometers through deep forests and along the Volga. True, from here it is necessary to throw out a few days of the siege of cities and it turns out about 10 days of the march. For each of which, nomads pass through forests for 50-55 kilometers per day! The second part of his squad takes an aggregate of less than 600 kilometers, which gives the average daily speed of the march to 40 kilometers. Taking into account a couple of days on the siege of cities - up to 50 kilometers per day.

Under Torzkom - a rather modest city by the standards of that time, the Mongols got stuck for at least 12 days and took it only on March 5 (V.V. Kargalov). After the capture of Torzhok, one of the Mongol detachments advanced towards Novgorod another 150 kilometers, but then turned back.

The second detachment of the Mongolian army under the command of Kadan and Buri left Vladimir to the east, moving on the ice of the Klyazma river. After passing 120 kilometers to Starodub, the Mongols burned this city, and then "cut off" the wooded watershed between the lower Oka and the middle Volga, reaching Gorodets (it is still about 170-180 kilometers, if in a straight line). Further, the Mongol detachments on the ice of the Volga reached Kostoromy (it is still about 350-400 kilometers), individual detachments even reached Galich Mershky. From Kostroma, the Mongols of Buri and Kadan went to join up with the third detachment under the command of Burundi to the west - to Uglich. Most likely, the nomads traveled across the ice of the rivers (at least, we recall once more, as is customary in Russian historiography), which gives about 300-330 kilometers of the way.

In the first days of March, Kadan and Buri were already at Uglich, having traveled three or more weeks from 1000-1100 kilometers. The average daily pace of the march was of the order of 45-50 kilometers among the nomads, which is close to that of the Batu detachment.

The third detachment of Mongols under the command of Burundai was the “slowest” - after taking Vladimir, he set out for Rostov (170 kilometers in a straight line), then overcame more than 100 kilometers to Uglich. Part of the forces of Burundi made a forced march to Yaroslavl (about 70 kilometers) from Uglich. In early March, Burundai unmistakably found the camp of Yuri Vsevolodovich in the Trans-Volga forests, which he defeated in a battle on the Sit River 4 in March. The transition from Uglich to the City and back is about 130 kilometers. In the aggregate, Burundi's units traveled about 470 kilometers in 25 days - this gives us only 19 kilometers of the average daily march.

In general, the conditional averaged Mongolian horse clocked "on the speedometer" from 1 December 1237 of the year to 4 of March 1238 of the year (94 of the day) from 1200 (the minimum estimate, suitable only for a small part of the Mongolian army) to 1800 kilometers. The conditional daily transition ranges from 12-13 to 20 kilometers. In reality, if we throw out standing in the floodplain of the Oka River (about 15 days), 5 days of assault on Moscow and 7 days of rest after its capture, a five-day siege of Vladimir, as well as 6-7 days on the siege of Russian cities in the second half of February, it turns out that the Mongolian horses for each of the 55 of their days of movement passed on average up to 25-30 kilometers. These are excellent results for horses given the fact that all this happened in the cold, in the middle of forests and snowdrifts, with an obvious shortage of feed (the Mongols could hardly requisition many feed for their horses from the peasants, especially since the steppe horses did not eat almost grain) and hard work.

After the capture of Torzhok, the main part of the Mongolian army concentrated on the upper Volga in the Tver region. Then they moved in the first half of March 1238, on a broad front, to the south in the steppe. The left wing, commanded by Kadan and Storm, passed through the forests of the Klyazma and Volga watershed, then went to the headwaters of the Moskva River and descended to Oka. In a straight line, this is about 400 kilometers, taking into account the average speed of movement of fast-moving nomads - this is about 15-20 days of travel for them. So, apparently, in the first half of April, this part of the Mongolian army went into the steppe. We don’t have information about how melting snow and ice on the rivers affected the movement of this detachment (the Ipatiev Chronicle only reports that the steppe people moved very quickly). What this squad was doing next month after leaving the steppes is also no information, we only know that in May, Kadan and Storm came to the rescue of Batu, who was stuck by that time near Kozelsk.

Small Mongol detachments are probably believed to be V.V. Kargalov and R.P. Khrapachevsky, remained on the middle Volga, robbing and burning Russian settlements. How they came out in the spring in the steppe 1238 is not known.

The greater part of the Mongolian troops under the command of Batu and Burundi, instead of the shortest path to the steppe, which the troops of Kadan and Storm passed, chose a very intricate route:

More is known about the Batuya route - from Torzhok he moved along the Volga and Vazuz (a tributary of the Volga) to the Dnieper interfluve, and from there through Smolensk lands to the Chernihiv city of Vshchizh, lying on the bank of the Desna, Khrapachevsky writes. Making a detour along the upper reaches of the Volga to the west and north-west, the Mongols turned south, and crossing the watersheds, they went to the steppe. Probably, some detachments marched in the center, through Volok-Lamsky (through forests). Approximately, the left edge of Batu was during this time about 700-800 kilometers, the other units a little less. By April 1, the Mongols reached Serenska, and Kozelsk (the chronicle Kozelesk, to be exact) - April 3-4 (according to other information - March 25). On average, this gives us another 35-40 kilometers of daily march.

Under Kozelsk, where ice could already start on Zhizdra and melting snow in its floodplain, Batu stuck almost a month on 2 (more precisely, on 7 weeks - 49 days - until 23-25 in May, maybe later, if you count from April 3, by Rashid ad-Din - on 8 weeks). It’s not quite clear why the Mongols needed to besiege an insignificant, even by medieval Russian standards, town. For example, the neighboring towns of Krom, Sleep, Mtsensk, Domagosch, Devyagorsk, Dedoslavl, Kursk, the nomads did not even touch.

On this subject, historians have argued so far, no imputed argument is provided. The most ridiculous version was proposed by the folk-historian of the “Eurasian sense” L.N. Gumilyov, who suggested that the Mongols took revenge on the grandson of Chernigov Prince Mstislav, who ruled in Kozelsk, for killing ambassadors on the Kalka river in 1223 year. It is amusing that Smolensk Prince Mstislav the Old was also involved in the murder of ambassadors. But Smolensk, the Mongols did not touch ...

Logically, Batu had to quickly leave the steppe, because the spring thaw and lack of food threatened him with a complete loss of at least “transport” - that is, horses.

The question of what the Mongols themselves fed on the horses, besieging Kozelsk for almost two months (using standard stone-throwing machines), none of the historians was bothering. Finally, it is trite to believe that a town with a population of several hundred people is still a huge army of Mongols, counted in tens of thousands of warriors, could not take 7 weeks ...

As a result, the Mongols lost a man to 4000 near Kozelsk and only the arrival of the Tempest and Kadan detachments in May 1238 saved the situation from the steppes - the town was taken and destroyed. For humor's sake, it is worth saying that the former President of the Russian Federation, Dmitry Medvedev, in honor of the merits of the population of Kozelsk before Russia, gave the settlement the title of “City of Military Glory”. The trouble was that archaeologists for almost 15 years of searching, could not find unequivocal evidence of the existence of the destroyed Batu Kozelsk. You can read about what passions on this issue were in full swing in the scientific and bureaucratic community of Kozelsk.

If we sum up the estimated data in the first and very rough approximation, it turns out that from December 1 1237 to April 3 1238 (the beginning of the siege of Kozelsk), the conditional Mongolian horse passed on average from 1700 to 2800 kilometers. In terms of 120 days, this gives an average daily transition in the range from 15 to 23 with a small kilometers. Since there are known periods of time when the Mongols did not move (sieges, etc., and this is about 45 days in total), then the scope of their average daily real march spreads from 23 to 38 kilometers per day.

Simply put, this means more than intense loads on horses. The question of how many of them survived after such transitions in fairly harsh climatic conditions and an obvious shortage of feed is not even discussed by Russian historians. As well as the question of the actual Mongol losses.

For example, R.P. Khrapachevsky generally believes that for the entire time of the Western campaign of the Mongols in 1235-1242, their losses amounted to only about 15% of their original number, whereas historian VB Koshcheev counted up to 50 thousands of sanitary losses during the march to North-Eastern Russia. However, all these losses, both in people and horses, were promptly compensated by the brilliant Mongols ... by the conquered peoples themselves. Therefore, in the summer of 1238, the Batu army continued the war in the steppes against the Kipchaks, and in Europe in 1241, what army did invade, so Thomas Splitsky reports that there were a lot of ... Russians, Kipchaks, Bulgarians, etc. peoples. How many among them were the "Mongols" themselves, really is not clear.


Mongolian steppe horse has not changed for centuries (Mongolia, 1911 year)
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  1. Sibiryak
    Sibiryak 20 July 2012 09: 01 New
    34
    The most interesting thing is that the Tatars themselves do not know anything about the glorious campaigns of their ancestors! I wonder why so ???! Maybe all of this is said - quote from an article "This invasion has become a generally accepted fact since the end of the XNUMXth century, when one of the founders of Russian Orthodoxy, the German Innokenty Gisel, wrote the first textbook on the history of Russia, Synopsis."
    1. Qwertpv
      Qwertpv 20 July 2012 09: 28 New
      35
      There is an interesting book (I can’t recall the name in the run), which describes stone-throwing machines (and much more). There, it was proved convincingly that no stone-throwing machines could exist and be used in real conditions. How to shoot stones if their mass is always different? And if you carry stones of the same mass with you? On what? From Mongolia? Also rated power in J, etc. and it was proved that a hit could not have caused the city. Attempts to recreate stone-throwing machines using the technologies of those years yielded nothing. Even with the use of modern materials, it turned out pretty poorly. But all historians still repeat their point.
      It is necessary to attract all historians under the new article for defamation. Fucking at sawmills benefit the country.
      1. Georg iv
        Georg iv 20 July 2012 11: 48 New
        23
        Defamation must be proved.
        History, she is a corrupt girl who, as he wanted, turned around. And there is no difference in writing it by Western historians or ours. The excesses of darkness.
        Either they have all those in the east - Tatars, then we have the "ancient way of the Aryans" and the great Slavic empires with tamed mammoths.
        Academician Fomenko is also a funny guy.
        1. Sibiryak
          Sibiryak 20 July 2012 12: 04 New
          +9
          Quote: Georg iv
          History, she is a corrupt girl who, as he wanted, turned around. And there is no difference in writing it by Western historians or ours.

          You, too, know how to amuse people by using such statements!
          1. Georg iv
            Georg iv 20 July 2012 13: 00 New
            +1
            Well, what to do. It would be dishonest to write otherwise.
        2. Woodoo
          Woodoo 23 July 2012 05: 04 New
          0
          Fomenko mathematician, he dances from the fact that the speed of the moon is constant.
    2. click80
      click80 20 July 2012 09: 57 New
      15
      So it is known for a long time that Europe writes history to us
    3. Prohor
      Prohor 20 July 2012 11: 18 New
      11
      The present Tatars are the then Volga Bulgars, they themselves suffered from the Horde.
      1. Muravyov
        Muravyov 21 July 2012 02: 04 New
        +2
        In general, the word "Tatars" then designated all ethnic groups conquered by the Horde. Both the Volga Kipchaks and Bulgars self-named themselves Tatars in agreement that they were under the rule of the Horde. The Horde themselves called themselves Mongols. But again, these are not today's Mongols. Those Mongols were ethnic relatives of today's Uzbeks. True, today's Uzbeks are also not the Uzbeks who were during the horde. The Horde then self-named themselves Uzbeks in honor of the Uzbek Khan, who consolidated Islam in the Horde. Subsequently, these Uzbeks conquered the tribes on the territory of today's northern Uzbekistan, some of which fled to India, and some were assimilated. And the mixture of these tribes with the Uzbeks who conquered them is the Uzbeks today.
        In general, such a mess turns out.))
        1. Rink
          Rink 22 July 2012 01: 32 New
          +9
          Quote: Muravyov
          In general, the word "Tatars" then designated all ethnic groups conquered by the Horde. Both the Volga Kipchaks and Bulgars self-named themselves Tatars in agreement that they were under the rule of the Horde. The Horde themselves called themselves Mongols. But again, these are not today's Mongols. Those Mongols were ethnic relatives of today's Uzbeks. True, today's Uzbeks are also not the Uzbeks who were during the horde. The Horde then self-named themselves Uzbeks in honor of the Uzbek Khan, who consolidated Islam in the Horde. Subsequently, these Uzbeks conquered the tribes on the territory of today's northern Uzbekistan, some of which fled to India, and some were assimilated. And the mixture of these tribes with the Uzbeks who conquered them is the Uzbeks today.
          In general, such a mess turns out.))

          And who in this nonsense believe in leapfrog with cascading renaming?
          By golly, somehow it’s very far-fetched, it looks as if someone is deliberately confusing the tracks.

          I am more impressed by the version that "Tatars" in those distant times was synonymous with either "Cossacks", "Cossack troops", or even "soldiers", "vigilantes", those who served in the army - the "horde".

          From the chronicles it is known that the Russian army was called the "horde" (For example, the "Zalesskaya horde" is mentioned). And the Moscow ambassador to England, when asked about the Tatars, answered: - "What Tatars are we talking about? Many Tatars serve our sovereign ..."

          But from the strangeness of this "Tatar-Mongol" conquest, one should also pay attention to the fact that never againabsolutely never in history - neither earlier nor after - nomads did not fight in winter.
          Nomads always fought in the spring and summer, when there is plenty of pasture for horse detachments.
          Winter in the steppe is fundamentally different from winter in central Russia, and the nomads were hardly ready to encounter coniferous forests, spruce forests and a meter of snow cover. In these conditions, they wouldn’t be up to fighting - they wouldn’t die of hunger!

          If historians are right and the local population was so small, then the supplies taken from them would not have been enough for a quarter of the "Mongol" army. And if the population was large, then it would not be so easy to take away the provisions.

          In general, inconsistencies and oddities in these supposedly occurring events are more than enough to undergo a deep revision of the modern official version of the history of Russia of the 13-14 centuries.

          The author of the article is a big plus! We look forward to further publications on this subject ...
          1. Visitor
            Visitor 16 December 2016 15: 24 New
            0
            And even in winter, among the forests, difficult to overcome for the masses of cavalry, smooth and even roads appear - frozen rivers. On which snow covers the ice, but is trampled down to a dense mass of horses. And in the spring and summer you will not pass on them. How do you like this version.
        2. The centurion
          The centurion 14 December 2016 19: 11 New
          0
          Quote: Muravyov
          In general, the word "Tatars" then designated all ethnic groups conquered by the Horde.

          According to the Mongolian custom, they called all the peoples allied and joined the Mongols "Tatars", which meant "others, strangers", i.e. not Mongols. Indeed, in the ancient Türkic language (also in some modern Türkic languages) the word "tat" means a stranger, a foreigner, a stranger. The ending "ar" (er, ir) means a man, man, husband. This Türkic ethnonym is used in many names of peoples and tribes with the ending "ar": Tatars, Khazars, Bulgars, Avars, Madjars, etc. The Mongolian custom of calling all strangers in one word took root later in Russia. All non-Russian peoples of the southeast, Russians, for many centuries also called Tatars, and all non-Russian peoples of the West were called Germans (not us). "
  2. itr
    itr 20 July 2012 09: 13 New
    +1
    Yes, or what they did not capture! they are just mercenaries, but who hired them is so everyone knows princes and boyars of Moscow. Read Karamzin
    1. hrych
      hrych 20 July 2012 10: 29 New
      12
      I beg you, but not Karamzin, the Romanov popolis, this trash, by order of the ruling house, has made such a thing that you wonder. And his main meanness: after Fyodor Ioannovich, Boris Fedorovich (Godunov), allegedly the husband of the tsar’s sister, ascended the throne, but for some reason his middle name was suspicious and the people and the boyars were asked to occupy the throne three times allegedly, although if by office. version did not have sons of Tsar Fedor and grandchildren Ivan 4, then a bunch of great-grandchildren of Tsars Ivanov and Vasiliev, numbering in the hundreds, and in general thousands of Ruriks.
      1. itr
        itr 20 July 2012 13: 32 New
        -2
        I try to challenge the Romanovs spawning nebylo at the time of the description in the article
    2. gor
      gor 22 July 2012 08: 21 New
      -7
      they were hired by the Americans and the British)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) here it’s clear from the comments that you don’t know your own story at all. But you manage to teach someone how to live))))))))))))))
  3. Sars
    Sars 20 July 2012 09: 32 New
    -12
    Quote: itr

    Yes, or what they did not capture! they are just mercenaries, but who hired them is so everyone knows princes and boyars of Moscow. Read Karamzin

    And no one burned Kiev with Moscow and Kozelsky.
    Only Russians have the Tatar gene from somewhere (the wind blew) and the names of many are the same!
    1. Sibiryak
      Sibiryak 20 July 2012 09: 41 New
      19
      Quote: SarS
      Only Russians have the Tatar gene from somewhere (the wind blew) and the names of many are the same!

      Tatar gene! You made me laugh! Do you think for the mixing of races and nationalities occurs only by military means? lol
    2. itr
      itr 20 July 2012 09: 41 New
      +7
      Read Karamzin, I repeat again. Why is it silent that the Tatars for the Russians also fought against the Livonians? and the Mongols are the same Tatars, just a tribe stood out from the bulk of the Children of the sun. And the Mongol yoke was invented in order that people would not know how power appeared on Moscow Russia.
      1. Passing
        Passing 20 July 2012 17: 12 New
        +4
        Quote: itr
        and the Mongols are the same Tatars just a tribe stood out from the bulk

        What nonsense. About the same thing that the Buryats and Tatars say is the same thing. I understand that not everyone can read anything on this topic, but poorly compare the picture on the TV, look at the Mongolian, typically Asian face with cheekbones and narrow eyes, and the Tatar face, without cheekbones and narrow-eyedness?
        1. datur
          datur 20 July 2012 17: 56 New
          +5
          Passing, I definitely have a friend from Kazan who says he says a Tatar-cunning reptile, (an Orthodox Muslim, it seems), but he respects vodka and lard too !!!! wink yes
      2. Rink
        Rink 22 July 2012 01: 55 New
        +2
        Quote: itr
        Read Karamzin, I repeat again .....

        Yes, we read it, read it. Despite the fact that he is a corrupt bastard, he wrote his version of the story to order the Romanovs.

        And my advice to you - never take for granted what the historian has said. ANYONE! Cross-checking of information on the writings of historians of a school hostile to him and initial data on primary sources is recommended.
        History is pseudoscience; it has been copied many times; historians themselves admit it.

        Therefore, it is possible to extract the truth about the past from the science of "history" only by methods of military intelligence: comparing information from all possible sources, as well as analyzing what is the personal interest of each of the informants, on which mill he pours water.
    3. GG2012
      GG2012 20 July 2012 09: 41 New
      +3
      And the famous word "X ... Y" the same came to us from them.
      1. Sanches
        Sanches 20 July 2012 16: 00 New
        +6
        GG2012 Today, 09:41
        And the famous word "X ... Y" the same came to us from them.

        According to another theory, Russian mats are Old Russian words with a changed meaning, and have nothing to do with the Mongols. "Bl-s" meant "a lie", hence "bl-words" - "a liar"; "x ..." changed "howai" - "hide"; "e-th" means "to beat", "to push" - has partially retained its meaning; well, etc., I will not list everything. There are a lot of Russian mats in general and they have nothing in common with Mongolian words, just like all other words of the Russian language. But on the contrary - Russian mats are found in other, related languages. Something is not noticeable the same spread and ramification of the Mongolian
      2. Shuhrat turani
        Shuhrat turani 20 July 2012 16: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: GG2012
        And the famous word "X ... Y" the same came to us from them.


        This is probably Turkism

        Huy (Turkish) - "bad" habit
        Xuyinmoq (Uzbek) - adultery

        Or just coincidences
        1. Sanches
          Sanches 20 July 2012 18: 41 New
          +2
          Shuhrat turani Today, 16: 21
          This is probably Turkism
          Huy (Turkish) - "bad" habit
          Xuyinmoq (Uzbek) - adultery
          Or just coincidences

          I will continue:
          Manda (Turkish) - Buffalo
          Che (in Chinese) - w ***
          laughing
          1. Sanches
            Sanches 21 July 2012 12: 01 New
            -1
            there is a well-known proverb: "Strike while the iron is hot"
            And so:
            KOWAI = KUI (prin. F. "Forge")
            HOWAI = X ** (prin. F. "Fuck")
            ("howay" - "hide" in Ukrainian and in Old Russian)
            Reduction in the type of gate-gate, raven-vran, city-city, etc.
    4. Astartes
      Astartes 20 July 2012 09: 55 New
      14
      Well, in general, Russia is spread over the whole continent, almost how many peoples are in it)) so it’s not right to prove the Mongol invasion by the presence of Tatar surnames))
    5. hrych
      hrych 20 July 2012 10: 54 New
      13
      Do not be misled, when creating a genetic map of peoples, by the American Institute, as well as the data of the "Kurchatovites" - the Tatar gene was not found in the Russians, but the Aryan gene R1a1 was found
      http://www.newsland.ru/news/detail/id/449365/
      http://gifakt.ru/archives/index/istoriya-russkogo-naroda-soglasno-dnk-genealogii

      /
      1. biglow
        biglow 20 July 2012 18: 25 New
        +6
        hrych,
        American geneticists, by the way, have confirmed that Russians have a blood purity of 98 with a penny
    6. Egor-dis
      Egor-dis 20 July 2012 14: 12 New
      +5
      Quote: SarS
      and many have the same surnames!

      Megarzhach! That is, according to your logic, the invaders and slave owners should assign slaves their last name? laughing Their things, their cattle and their slaves are usually marked, as a rule, by branding.
      But the names appear as a result of marriages. What doesn’t look like capture or conquest.
    7. Leisure
      Leisure 20 July 2012 15: 25 New
      +1
      You don’t know, Russia is a multinational state, and imagine the Tatars present in it.
      About the "Tatar gene", can you be more specific?
      1. datur
        datur 20 July 2012 17: 58 New
        +1
        Leisure, no, well, I think so, that Kazan, Astrakhan and other tsev-entogo gene at least heaped !!!!! wink yes
    8. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 July 2012 16: 18 New
      0
      Quote: SarS
      Only Russians have the Tatar gene from somewhere (the wind blew) and the names of many are the same!


      Today's Russians are mostly not Slavs. The reason is the principles of the state structure at the very early stages of its formation. The Novgorod Slavs were the first people to accept the power of the Varangians-Rus, which became the reason for the Slavic language of Russia. Further, with the inclusion of the Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples, the genetic composition of the main population was enriched with new agents. From this, Russia cannot be perceived as exclusively Slavic ... Everything is more complicated ...
      1. Rink
        Rink 22 July 2012 02: 05 New
        +5
        Shuhrat turaninever again repeat this nonsense.
        And by the way, the Finno-Ugric Russians did not assimilate, as did the Turks. Quite serious scientific publications write about this, no craniology, nor genetics, nor philology, nor archeology shows any kindred ties with the Finno-Ugric or Turkic group.

        They "know" and write about it only historians, but there is no evidence for these "discoveries". On the contrary, serious science says just the opposite.
        1. Shuhrat turani
          Shuhrat turani 22 July 2012 18: 47 New
          -1
          Quote: Skating rink
          And by the way, the Finno-Ugric Russians did not assimilate, as did the Turks. Quite serious scientific publications write about this, no craniology, nor genetics, nor philology, nor archeology shows any kindred ties with the Finno-Ugric or Turkic group.

          Only historians "know" and write about this, but there is no evidence for these "discoveries". On the contrary, serious science says just the opposite.


          "Serious" science is in the captivity of politics. What they order, they will write. You are right the Russian Finno-Ugric people did not assimilate, since the majority of Russians are Slavic-speaking Orthodox Finno-Ugric people. And they will not see any connections as long as it is forbidden to see it.
    9. datur
      datur 20 July 2012 17: 53 New
      +4
      Sars,
      Only the Russians have a Tatar gene from somewhere (the wind blew) and the names of many are the same! --- Actually, the gene is normal and not Tatar !!! how all freaks did not bother, but we could not find him! and surnames - so how many hordes have we crushed for ourselves? !!!! then that's it !!!!!!
    10. Horde
      Horde 20 July 2012 20: 12 New
      +6
      Only Russians have the Tatar gene from somewhere (the wind blew)


      the Tatar gene does not exist - this is stupidity, as if there were genes, Bashkir, Udmurt, Mari! fool
    11. Fox
      Fox 21 July 2012 08: 01 New
      +1
      and the Russians now, everyone who is not lazy ... Kozelsk was destroyed in the 18th century by artillery
    12. Rink
      Rink 22 July 2012 01: 43 New
      +3
      Quote: SarS
      ... Only the Russians from somewhere the Tatar gene (the wind blew) ....

      What does he look like - have you seen him? specifically, which gene is considered specifically Tatar, enlighten?
    13. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 19: 27 New
      0
      burned more than once, but where is the evidence, besides the "official history" that the Tatar-Mongols? and about the gene: you are a geneticist (with a name?), you have a scientific. data on a purely Mongolian introduced gene in the genotype of all Russians? yeah, surnames with a Tatar accent: since in Russia there are, say, Tatar, Tat.- Mong. the yoke is proven. dot.
  4. PARROT
    PARROT 20 July 2012 09: 44 New
    -14
    It's just that people who consider themselves smarter than people who have been studying history all their lives are enraged, people who unload bricks during the day and come in the evening looking for irregularities and talk about "synapsis" as a single source are enraged.
    1. itr
      itr 20 July 2012 09: 46 New
      +5
      Why are you doing this?
    2. GG2012
      GG2012 20 July 2012 09: 58 New
      12
      Synopsis [1] [2] (the acceptable option is synopsis [3] [4], taking into account the original Greek stress) (other Greek σύνοψις, from the Greek words: συν - с and όπτω - I look) - in the scientific nomenclature of the ancient Greeks meant a summary in one general review, in a concise form, without detailed argumentation and without detailed theoretical considerations, one whole subject or one field of knowledge.

      So express your point of view. argue her. And we honor and agree, maybe.

      After all, the "territory of comments" is a territory of mutual enrichment.
      And you immediately in emotion ... Complexes tortured?

      What are you doing this for?
      1. Docker76
        Docker76 20 July 2012 11: 06 New
        +8
        Quote: GG2012
        "comment territory" is a territory of mutual enrichment.


        ..in this, that is ..)
        ... for an example, you don't have to go far, that's all - we, we see how the history of the Second World War is being rewritten, not so distant, what about the Middle Ages - "wrote" ..... ??? !!
        .... seeing what is happening with the world, everything falls into place .... !!!! ..
        .. a lie is not a complete truth ....
        1. GG2012
          GG2012 20 July 2012 12: 49 New
          +6
          The most terrible lie is a lie - knowledge.
    3. Egor-dis
      Egor-dis 20 July 2012 14: 27 New
      14
      Quote: PARROT
      Just enrage people who consider themselves smarter than people who have been studying history all their lives

      And I am enraged by historians-grant-eaters who write history on the basis of the concept launched by the customer. "If some historical fact does not fit into the concept - so much the worse for the fact" - this proverb was invented by historians. So there are all sorts of Tatar-Mongols of medium and long range, on horses with vertical takeoff. Therefore, you have to "unload bricks, and then analyze."
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 21 July 2012 07: 50 New
        +5
        Oh, Yegor, I support with all my heart.
        And, in addition to horses - "Osprey" I will add ..
        ultra-long-range, rapid-firing armor-piercing bows (made in the steppe),
        heavy plate cavalry (as described by V. Yan),
        as it is about "Yasu" forgotten,
        the unknown grave of Genghis Khan (the same unknown graves of any mythically legendary hero, Atilla, there, Brunhild, Nibelunga, Conan, Rambo),
        increased flow around the lower Volga region during the conquests, and then the device in those places of the capital - Saray (although Svyatoslav was quite entertained with the Khazars there),
        the mass attraction of conquered soldiers to their troops (well, like, the Germans formed the fronts from us, and we, respectively, from the Germans. There would have been a war.)
        ....
        What nonsense .... all this is the Mongol-Tatar annals.
    4. revnagan
      revnagan 23 July 2012 16: 39 New
      0
      Brothers, well, can someone explain to me where Ryazan and Kozelsk went then, what happened to Moscow, Suzdal, why were just barely 1000 people left in Kiev? Did the Martians from space explode? Or did the Russians themselves drunk kill each other, and burned the cities ? One thing is clear, a strong enemy has come to Russia, and so far, apart from the Mongol Tatars, there is nobody to play the role of this enemy.
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 1 August 2012 12: 50 New
        0
        specially dug military history. I didn’t find a single example to kakanit the nation (except Russian) fought in the winter .................
    5. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 19: 37 New
      0
      So, "the people who study history all their lives" - the most intelligent? urgently run to "study history", the bricks will wait
  5. baltika-18
    baltika-18 20 July 2012 09: 52 New
    +7
    Regarding the Tatar conquest, I advise you to read the research of Nosovsky and Fomenko. 24 films were also created The True History of Russia. Very interesting, explains a lot.
    1. Shuhrat turani
      Shuhrat turani 20 July 2012 16: 51 New
      -2
      This is yet another fanaticism - the product of pseudo-historians - is produced only because the nationalist society willingly buys this product, i.e. believes what she wants, and they pay for it

      One must be more selective in terms of the selection of literature.
      1. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 19: 39 New
        0
        no, you just have to try to separate “flies from cutlets”, and history from myths
  6. PARROT
    PARROT 20 July 2012 09: 54 New
    -9
    The Mongol Tatars successfully fought against China - there are many sources in China about this, at that time China was a very developed country in all aspects, therefore the Mongol Tatars were a really good army capable of conquering ... fragmented principalities, which often could not just connect to repel the invasions, and the question is why should they go to Russ stupid, the author probably has such a theory that from rich cities to rich conquered territory these are narrow paths, they simply expanded their borders if they thought how author, then would never have become the largest empire in history. Another urapatriotic article, it turns out they did not conquer Russia, but just Russia hired them - excellent!
    The story of the ruin of Ryazan Batu about this not a word from the author, you have all such uneducated urapatriots7
    1. hrych
      hrych 20 July 2012 11: 02 New
      +6
      If we take even the notorious Karamzin, then the Chingizids are called Magols, there are no Mangolo-Tatars, this is an invention of the 20th century, but that Subetyai-Bagatur carved the Volga Bulgars (who are now called Kazan Tatars) is a fact. And if the Kazanians are related to Chingiz's Magols, then only by posting local losers, but a little later Ivan Vasilyevich entered Kazan citizens with his "warriors", so do not look for Russian Tatar genes, but look for Russians among the Tatars.
    2. itr
      itr 20 July 2012 11: 12 New
      +5
      And what kind of cheers are the patriots talking about? as I understand it! you didn’t understand what I said.
      Well then, literally, I wanted to say that Moscow Russia was becoming a fratricidal war. where, for the sake of personal gain, enemies who ravaged the cities were invited to the Russian land. Subsequently, which were either captured by Muscovites or bought from the Tatars. The case was described that Alexander Nevsky invited the Tatars on a campaign against Livonia, which was not successful. The next year, the Tatars themselves came and repeated the campaign.
      1. Zerkalo
        Zerkalo 21 July 2012 00: 14 New
        0
        as far as I know from history, the same Nevsky hired Mongol mercenaries in 1242 against the Germans. It was their flying squads that chased the retreating Teutons on the ice and captured them and bombarded them with arrows.
        And about the Kulikovo battle (the article will soon be about and about it) it would be incorrect to talk about the battle between the Russians and the Mongols! On the side of the Russians, many Mongols fought, who chose the path of farming for themselves and settled in Russia. Therefore, it was a battle of two lines, if you want ...
        1. Visitor
          Visitor 16 December 2016 15: 05 New
          0
          I would have handed over the term "Mongol-Tatars" for scrap. According to various sources, it is known that the composition of this army included detachments from the defeated countries, therefore, in Russia, the Mongols themselves were perhaps in the guarding thousands of temniks, and that is not a fact. I would call the conquerors the Horde, since they called their states the Horde. What we used to call the Golden Horde, and the Horde themselves called the Blue, is the right wing of the ulus of Jochi, the eldest son of Chinggis, the first ruler was Batu, the son of Jochi and grandson of Chingis. The left wing, respectively, included the Trans-Ural steppes and part of modern Kazakhstan, formed the Ak-Orda (White Horde), the first ruler was Batu's elder brother Ichen-Orda. And Altyn-Orda (Golden) was the name of a state on the territory of modern China and up to the borders of Ak-Orda. Both the White and the Blue Horde were a kind of large military camp, because they remained faithful to the way of the nomads.
    3. saruman
      saruman 20 July 2012 16: 01 New
      12
      Quote: PARROT
      The Mongol Tatars successfully fought against China - there are many sources in China about this, China at that time was a very developed country in all aspects, therefore the Mongol Tatars were a really good army capable of conquering ...


      What are the Chinese sources? Can I have links? Don't tell my hooves. Even Soviet historians - orientalists noted that it is impossible to study Chinese history from their "chronicles", since in these sources mythology is mixed with facts so that it is not possible to isolate the real facts. True, there were brave fellow Jesuit monks who flooded China in their time. Somehow magically, the Jesuits figured out the "Chinese literacy" and / composed / or rather wrote the history of China.
      You can recall the siege of the Russian fortress Albazin on the Amur River in 1686-87. the Chinese army (or rather the Manchurian army), and so, the advisers of the Manchus, the Jesuits Pereira and Ger-Billon, put forward at the negotiations with the Russians an argument that this Amur river belonged to the Chinese - the Bogdykhanians from the time of Alexander the Great, even promised to show some "documents". So the Jesuits easily introduced the "Mongol-Tatar" period into Chinese history, so that everything was smooth.
    4. wown
      wown 20 July 2012 16: 32 New
      -1
      Well, this opus is generally considered fabulous
    5. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 19: 41 New
      0
      pay attention to the dating of the "story ..." and other documents
  7. Aventurinka
    Aventurinka 20 July 2012 10: 05 New
    17
    You can argue endlessly until you invent a time machine and scientists remove what was in fact in the satellite video. request
    But the inconsistencies noted by the author are quite logical. And the livelihood of horses, and the lack of convoy, and the lack of archaeological evidence of burials after the battles, and the speed of movement, and the number ...
    Plus, I want to add that neither the Tatars nor the Mongols (which are apparently completely different) have no legends and legends about the great ancestors who once conquered Russia. Provided that disrespect for the ancestors of these peoples does not welcome, it is doubtful that they could forget this, if it really were.
    1. pheophano
      pheophano 20 July 2012 10: 42 New
      -1
      Carts are needed when the army has nowhere to take what is needed. They robbed. Why should they carry food and forage. And of course, women and children were left somewhere. We all read about Svyatoslav as he went on hikes in the light. Regarding siege machines. The engineers were Chinese. How would they take Alamut if they were not there? And cars were not always needed
      1. hrych
        hrych 20 July 2012 11: 12 New
        +5
        Chinese engineers are now making crooked kirogas, before the capture of China by the Xiangbin people, which include the Chingizids, China was owned by the Jurdjenis, relatives of the Xiangbin people, great craftsmen and craftsmen, and the main population of China, today's Han people, were dirty slaves, besides the eunuchs of the Forbidden City. Siege engines at Chingiz are made by Jurdzhen engineers.
      2. borisst64
        borisst64 20 July 2012 11: 12 New
        10
        "They robbed. Why would they carry food and fodder."

        I think no one has any illusions about food abundance in those days, they regularly went hungry, where can they provide an army of many thousands.

        There is another interesting point - on the Kulikovo field they did not find during the excavation of the bones, and the horses probably died a lot.
      3. Aventurinka
        Aventurinka 20 July 2012 13: 37 New
        +6
        Well, it’s doubtful to me that without tools (there wasn’t a wagon train) even Chinese engineers can slap different cars and mechanisms in a day ... And the stone-built machines built are unlikely to be thrown ...
        1. stroporez
          stroporez 1 August 2012 13: 00 New
          0
          they sent tools on the Internet))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
        2. Visitor
          Visitor 16 December 2016 15: 11 New
          0
          What can you do with them? To drag along? Look at the designs of the siege machines of that time. They are mainly made of wood. which is natural - fiberglass and other polyamds have not yet been invented. In forest Russia, if necessary, turn up racks. rocker arms and log drums - half a day. But the metal working springs, complicated ropes, etc. - yes, it was necessary to bring with me. To collect a stone thrower on site and use. Then disassemble as unnecessary. Well put yourself in their place - you just did exactly that. having their capabilities and technique. Why do we think that at that time people were dumber and wouldn’t have thought of such a thing?
      4. Vyalik
        Vyalik 20 July 2012 14: 58 New
        +8
        Many peoples, including Russians, do not have a good trait. If the enemy can capture what the enemy doesn’t get, the forage and hay burn like a match, but try to make the horses have fodder or hay that gives off smoke.
      5. saruman
        saruman 20 July 2012 16: 16 New
        +8
        Quote: pheophano
        Engineers were chinese


        I wonder if you can give archaeological examples of miracle machines created by ancient Chinese "engineers" or their detailed description in the original medieval Chinese documents?
        We do not consider Chinese mythology.

        Quote: pheophano
        Carts are needed when the army has nowhere to take what is needed. They robbed. Why should they carry food and forage


        And what was looted on what? Or did they go to rob the grub that they ate right there?
        1. Egor-dis
          Egor-dis 23 July 2012 10: 16 New
          0
          Quote: saruman
          And what was looted on what?

          No, they worked by bank transfer, with a transfer to the card of Privatbank. And go eat at McDonald’s laughing
    2. datur
      datur 20 July 2012 18: 12 New
      +5
      AventurinkaWell, in fairness, I must say that in Mongolia there is even a monument to Genghis Khan! but apparently he appeared with the filing of the Koi Europeans, having arrived there, they explained to the local type — they are the descendants of the great Mongols conquerors !!! and not otherwise! and then the steppes about it were not a dream at all! wink and here is Genghis Khan, empire, conquest !!! head straight around !!! wink yes laughing
      1. Visitor
        Visitor 16 December 2016 15: 16 New
        0
        Those. there were no conquests of Genghis Khan and his descendants? This is bad luck! And in 1241, a knight’s militia under the command of Henry the Pious died near Lignica. Apparently. from typhoid. As for the documents. Seven labels of the Horde khans issued to the Russian princes survived. If there was no conquest, then why did the khans and khans (Taydula) in these labels give something to the Russian princes and Metropolitan of Russia Alexy I? Type Russian princes themselves did not know. what is spelled out in labels - and so is it them? it was necessary that some kind of khan confirmed there? This is so offhand. There is a Secret Legend of the Mongols. You can read it. It is written, however, not in Mongolian, the Mongols did not know writing then.
    3. Zerkalo
      Zerkalo 21 July 2012 00: 17 New
      +5
      After all, we have clearly noted the fact that when there was Bironovschina, the Germans very much distorted history in their favor ... They hated Orthodoxy and the Livonian war, then this is direct evidence. The documents note the fact that when the Germans planned to capture Russia, they wanted to allow the construction of wooden churches and stone cathedrals. They say that the tree will decay, and the stone will stand and there will be not saponified Russia, but catholic. What really talks about how they could distort the story ...
    4. stroporez
      stroporez 1 August 2012 12: 57 New
      +1
      here, for example, after Columbus, gold in Europe fell 11 times, so I somehow believe that whole fleets loaded with gold came from America. and here the empire is the size of a continent --- and even there are no roads left ........ ((((
      1. Visitor
        Visitor 16 December 2016 15: 20 New
        0
        Which roads do you want? Following the Roman pattern? From three to four years old, the Horde mounted his horse and died in the saddle; even he coped with little need from the saddle. They were nomads, they were dear to them purple, if only the horse passed. It is also important that the conquered peoples pay tithing according to Yasa Chinggis. And you're talking about roads. Correspondence has been preserved between the Pope and, in my opinion, Ugadei. So the high priest humbledly begged there not to leave him with the grace of the khan. Why would that be? But this, I understand, is not evidence of the existence of the Horde as an empire. There are no roads ...
    5. The comment was deleted.
  8. PARROT
    PARROT 20 July 2012 10: 14 New
    -4
    By the way, read about modern Mongolia, they will soon hire us.
    1. neri73-r
      neri73-r 20 July 2012 14: 33 New
      +5
      You are already being hired in China, here in Europe, etc. This is not personal to you.
  9. Sars
    Sars 20 July 2012 11: 06 New
    +7
    Sibiryak,
    Quote: Sibiryak
    Tatar gene! You made me laugh! Do you think for the mixing of races and nationalities occurs only by military means

    I will surprise you very much! Muscovite Rus on European maps was called "Muscovite Tartaria!
    And Moscow became the center of Russia only after the adoption by the khan of Uzbek of a decree on compulsory Islam among the Tatars - baptized Tatars (it was not Russian priests who baptized them Greek for long before that) began to move to the Principality of Moscow in droves.

    As I understand it, the story will soon be accepted by us.
    1. Sibiryak
      Sibiryak 20 July 2012 11: 46 New
      +4
      Quote: SarS
      I will surprise you very much! Muscovite Rus on European maps was called "Muscovite Tartaria!

      I know about it and what?
      Quote: SarS
      And Moscow became the center of Russia only after the adoption by the khan of Uzbek of a decree on compulsory Islam among the Tatars - baptized Tatars (it was not Russian priests who baptized them Greek for long before that) began to move to the Principality of Moscow in droves.

      In other words, the Tatars came and Muscovy became a great state! You made me laugh again! lol
      Quote: SarS
      As I understand it, the story will soon be accepted by us.

      Well, then the arguments will be even funnier!
      I just don’t understand how you wanted to surprise me ???
      1. Shuhrat turani
        Shuhrat turani 20 July 2012 16: 57 New
        +1
        In other words, the Tatars came and Muscovy became a great state! You made me laugh again!

        Laughter prolongs life. And the fact that many Tatar clans adopted Orthodoxy became Russian nobles and ensured the supremacy of Moscow in the fight against Tver and Novgorod is a fact ...
        1. Sibiryak
          Sibiryak 20 July 2012 19: 20 New
          -1
          Quote: Shuhrat Turani
          And the fact that many Tatar clans adopted Orthodoxy became Russian nobles and ensured the supremacy of Moscow in the fight against Tver and Novgorod is a fact ...

          And what, exactly after that, Moscow became the center of Russia? And Tver is in Africa, and Novgorod is in America, so what? Or do you want to emphasize the peculiarity of the Tatar clans in the inter-princely feuds? You read carefully what the conversation is about!
      2. datur
        datur 20 July 2012 18: 25 New
        +5
        SibiryakWell, well, after all, according to the Western version, it was like that, the Slavs (Russians) drunk in death sat with balalaikas, and the same drunk bears in the trees! outraged not childishly (barbarians) drank blood all around! right up to the 8th century AD !! but then the Germans (Europeans) came again and instilled in us democratic values, you know! and such grace descended upon us, well, right heaven! yes repeat laughing
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 20 July 2012 11: 47 New
      +4
      As you can see, there are many versions. But are they all based on ... thought-over? guesses? fantasy flights?

      Sars,
      and the educated Europeans called Central America a few centuries later called the West Indies. What would it mean to you?
    3. datur
      datur 20 July 2012 18: 17 New
      0
      Sars, you still prankster! and examples in the studio! THEREFORE YURI DOLGORUKI would probably be surprised if he read you !!!!! wink laughing
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 21 July 2012 12: 02 New
        +1
        Well, Yuri (datur) ..
        It seems that Yuri Dolgoruky - for a reason ... called.
        Probably he has gibbon genes ... present. And his hands reached the ground when he was sitting on a horse.
        So it turns out, according to Sar S /
        1. datur
          datur 21 July 2012 12: 44 New
          +3
          oh me theseIgarr, (Igor) with their specific humor !!!!! and so you are right dear Colonel General !!!!! yes wink and the nickname YURI DOLGORUKOGO- so he got to all his enemies !!!! not one left !!!!
    4. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 19: 47 New
      0
      they’ll not be soon, but have long been practicing, though in narrow circles, but then it’s the law (who is not with us is against us)
  10. redcod
    redcod 20 July 2012 11: 07 New
    +4
    I strongly doubt that the yoke existed. This whole story was composed under Peter, when it was necessary to enter the "European family" and show that Russia is Europe, but it was just a little late, because of the "damned Tatars".
    It would not be the Golden Horde Rusich would have crossed themselves in civil strife. And the steppes did not interfere with the development of Russia. Thanks to the patronage, Russia did not fight for three hundred years, not counting minor conflicts.
    And most interesting, why is Genghis Khan identified with the current Mongols who learned about him from the Russians? Genghis Khan, like all his army, were Türks. For example, among the Kazakhs, Genghisides-tore are still revered (taking into account modern realities of course).
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 20 July 2012 14: 14 New
      +3
      redcod,
      Genghisides are both in Uzbekistan and in Kyrgyzstan. How does this contradict the official version?
      1. redcod
        redcod 31 July 2012 16: 45 New
        0
        The Kyrgyz have no Genghisides. They always had manapas - local tribal princes, who had nothing to do with Genghisids. And then the Kyrgyz did not have a khanate.
    2. datur
      datur 21 July 2012 12: 49 New
      0
      redcod, generally RUSSIAN HISTORY cool edited by ROMANOV !! that would be so-called legitimate, then the oligarchs (boyars) were fucked up so fucked up !!! put on the throne like, they thought a temporary puppet, ha ha !!!!
      1. redcod
        redcod 31 July 2012 16: 46 New
        0
        And Peter is not Romanov?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  11. Prohor
    Prohor 20 July 2012 11: 25 New
    18
    It is necessary for historians to compel each figure in the article to attach its confirmation.
    I'm afraid that in addition to references to predecessors, in this case we will not see anything!
    Three hundred years ago, someone blurted out something with a drink - that's it, "the primary source"!

    There is a marvelous joke on this subject:

    The young monk took the tonsure, and the first task in the monastery was to help the rest of the monks to copy church codes, psalms, laws, etc. by hand.
    After working like this for a week, our nuns noticed that all the monks were copying these materials from the previous copy, and not from the original. Marveled at this fact, he expressed his surprise at his abbot:
    - Padre, because if someone made a mistake in the first copy, it will be repeated forever, and there is no way to fix it, because there is nothing to compare!
    “Hm, my son,” answered the father-rector, “actually, we have been doing this for centuries ... But, in principle, there is something in your reasoning!”
    And with these words, he went down into the dungeons, where the "primary sources" were kept in huge chests, which had not been opened for centuries.
    And gone.
    When almost a day has passed since his disappearance, the worried nuns went down to the same cellars in search of the holy father.
    He found it right away - he was sitting in front of a huge open volume of calfskin, banging his head against the sharp stones of the dungeon, and mumbled something inarticulate. His face was covered with dirt and abrasions, blood was flowing, his hair was tangled, and his eyes were insane.
    “What is the matter, Father?” Cried the shocked youth, “What happened ?!”
    - Celebrate, - the father-abbot groaned, - the word was: celebrate !!! Not "celibate" !!!
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 20 July 2012 11: 46 New
      +4
      Prohor,
      A valid joke !!! Thanks!!!
    2. GG2012
      GG2012 20 July 2012 11: 48 New
      +6
      In addition to your post:
      Rereading "The Master and Margarita" in Bulgakov's adult years and reaching the scene of the trial of the wandering philosopher Yeshua Ha-Notsri, I noticed that the execution of this comrade took place on Easter. I thought, "What the hell is this? After all, Easter is the day of the resurrection of Christ, but how could this holiday be celebrated in Judea of ​​that hour when Christ was not yet executed?"
      I crawled into the Bible for clarification, but there fool same. "for Easter".
      I went to Christian sites where you can ask an "online question" - "priests" I was simply ignored stupidly for several days. And then ... there is a lot of information further, so I will not describe all my adventures.
      Here is a bare fact.
      Draw your own conclusions "Is it possible to trust what is written in the Bible?"
      1. Prometey
        Prometey 20 July 2012 12: 25 New
        +7
        GG2012
        It was better to delve into the sources. Easter is an ancient Jewish holiday that Jews still celebrate. It’s just that for Christians and Jews, Easter has a different content. Jesus was crucified at Easter - the one that the Jews celebrated (a kind of anniversary of the exodus of Jews from Egypt). On Easter, Jesus rose and Christians began to call Easter the Resurrection repeat
        1. GG2012
          GG2012 20 July 2012 12: 45 New
          +5
          Prometey Today, 12:25 ↑
          "Moishe, don't confuse eggs with tomatoes !!!"
          Passover - was and is (the exodus of the Jews from Egypt)
          And in what year did they come up with Easter, and when did Christians begin to celebrate it ???
          Find the answer for yourself.

          The Bible says "Easter !!!"
          Easter at that time could not be

          So delve into the sources. And if you your argument will be stronger, I will bow my head to you.
          1. itr
            itr 20 July 2012 13: 08 New
            -24
            Listen, a citizen of Ukraine, you don’t doubt the Russian religion, it’s not your thing to go to your church and pray to your gods there not Jewish and there’s nothing to be clever about. This is our religion and history, and it can be proud of unlike your Ukrainian.
            1. GG2012
              GG2012 20 July 2012 14: 07 New
              16
              Your comment is aimed at inciting ethnic hatred on confessional basis within the framework of one Christian religion.

              Unfortunately, our people did not create the Russian religion. A foreign religion was imposed on him and everyone knows how it was done.

              You do not set the rules for who to be on this site and who not. Therefore, know your place.

              Speak only for yourself.

              I am not a member of any of the mentioned churches (but essentially a sect).

              Are you an employee of the PR department of ZAO ROC?
              1. itr
                itr 20 July 2012 14: 16 New
                -21
                So you condemn someone else’s religion to your gods, pray that no one touches you. And do not dare to discuss ours. That’s the problem of Russia when they humiliate a religion in a country that has been discovered that he is silent; he must be beaten into a corner and only then will he fight back. See your comments. I think you are one of those people who converted from Orthodoxy to Islam. Sooner or later, everything will fall into place and people like you will answer in full
                You know, if you still don’t understand me, then watch a movie of 72 meters and you will probably be clear
                1. GG2012
                  GG2012 20 July 2012 15: 12 New
                  14
                  Yes you are "father" - boor! And, real!
                  I am with you on you, you poke me!
                  Don't like my comments ?! Answer me reasonably.
                  Can't answer? Then, endure how Christ endured !!!
                  And about what would "hammer me into the corner", I will answer:
                  I have a military father, all my life in garrisons, a new republic - a new city - a new school. And in every school, as soon as I arrived, I was told "What are you, a Russian got here ?! Russian pig, go home" and stuff like that. Thanks to my father, "put me a blow." So after a short showdown, usually everyone calmed down, and no one else risked telling me such nasty things.
                  Unfortunately, I can’t reach out and give you in the jaw. And especially for the fact that I allegedly "converted to Islam."
                  You, "father" Ham and Provocateur.
                  And I am deeply in %%% for your sobs.

                  PS Yes, but also you have a spelling with punctuation marks and punctuation. Or do you knock your nose on the keyboard?
                  1. itr
                    itr 20 July 2012 15: 36 New
                    -5
                    Well, what religion do you profess
                    1. GG2012
                      GG2012 20 July 2012 16: 03 New
                      +9
                      I used to be a Christian. And then reading Bulgakov's "M and M", I came across the above episode. I had a lot of free time, I started reading everything: the Bible, history, and much more. I read without stopping for more than half a year (an old army injury temporarily knocked me out of my active life).
                      Then he put everything he read to a heap, put it on the shelves. And it turned out that Christianity in 988 is Gorbachev's "Perestroika"

                      I am not a pagan, not a Christian, not a Muslim, not a Buddhist, not a Jew.
                      I am against any religion.
                      I am for accurate and truthful information on any issue.
                      It turned out that Christianity, as a system of knowledge, simply does not stand up to less serious research. It begins to crack and break at the first questions posed.
                      Anyway, it’s kind of strange in the 21st century to carry in your head someone’s ideas about the world, invented 2000 years ago. Don't you find?

                      PS Sounds strange, but after I gave up my Christian views, I began to like to pray. And the prayer became completely different, living, earnest (I will use the Christian term). And how often do you pray?
                      1. Sibiryak
                        Sibiryak 20 July 2012 16: 54 New
                        -2
                        Quote: GG2012
                        There was a lot of free time, I began to read everything: the Bible, history, and much more.

                        The gospel and the Bible are not compared? Different trends in Christianity seem to be prescribed!
                      2. GG2012
                        GG2012 20 July 2012 17: 54 New
                        +2
                        You must have been mistaken; the Bible (New Testament) includes: Gospels and Acts, Cathedral Epistles, Epistles of St. Apostle Paul, Revelation of St. Up John the Theologian ?!
                      3. Sibiryak
                        Sibiryak 20 July 2012 18: 42 New
                        0
                        Quote: GG2012
                        You must have made a mistake

                        I didn’t have as much free time as you have to figure it out! I assumed that these are slightly different things, well, thanks, let's see!
                      4. GG2012
                        GG2012 20 July 2012 19: 29 New
                        +1
                        Please.
                        I am for each of us to know more.
                        I confess the principle: "Once I figured it out, and then you live with a clear head."
                2. itr
                  itr 21 July 2012 06: 06 New
                  -3
                  Yes, I have nothing to say! It makes me sad from such conversations. The time will come, everyone will answer for everything. Today, religion shit tomorrow in the ass to give in the order of things. Very regrettable
                3. GG2012
                  GG2012 21 July 2012 10: 25 New
                  +4
                  itr (2) Today, 06:06 ↑ new

                  Strange you are, however! All the time you are drawn to the extreme. That "went out to his Ukraine", then "not hurt" our "religion", and now they generally dragged "to give in the ass" ??? !!!
                  All the time you threaten that people like me will "answer in full" !!!
                  Are you coming to me in Kiev on a tank ?! To shoot cleanly "antichrists" not of the Moscow faith ?!
                  Are you okay?! Health is naughty?
                  You, somehow sort yourself out!

                  In none of my comments, I did not insult yours or any other religion. And suddenly "religion is shit" !!! Notice this your own words.

                  Religion is a system of mental ideas about Nature, about the properties of nature, about Life, about man.
                  In modern language, religion is an operating system within each person.
                  So, Christianity as an operating system became obsolete in the 19th century, and even more in the 20th century, and in the 21st century it is completely inadequate.
                  You can not live in the body in the 21st century, and the head in the Middle Ages. This is the reason for internal conflict and inhibition.
                  Religion needs to be used while it develops you. Once religion becomes obsolete, it needs to be changed. The main thing is DEVELOPMENT !!! Constant DEVELOPMENT !!! Individual development, social development and state development !!!
                  And, unfortunately, you are "stuck between floors". This is unfortunate.
                4. itr
                  itr 21 July 2012 10: 53 New
                  -3
                  ornate speak I can’t man straight
                  but I think the conversation is exhausted. He himself is not pleasant to me, and you too
                  Only an inadequate person can say that religion should be used
                  and change when it does not bring benefits.
                5. GG2012
                  GG2012 21 July 2012 12: 32 New
                  +3
                  Yes. I agree. Our conversation is over.
                  But goodbye I can’t help but joke about your "I'm a straight man".
                  Have you swallowed the sleeper ?! Come on, Hristo, Windows is hanging ?!
                  lol lol lol
                  Excuse me! I could not restrain myself! Excuse me, please!
          2. Edumog
            Edumog 23 July 2012 01: 32 New
            +3
            Plus, religion is opium for the people, it overshadows the mind, zombies and has nothing to do with faith in God! Priests are brokers, why do we need intermediaries in communication with the Creator, if everyone has a means of communication with him - Conscience!
          3. berimor
            berimor 3 August 2012 18: 50 New
            0
            You are absolutely right! God is in everyone's head! And the priests at all times were money-grubbing and the first to break all the commandments. Their whole struggle is a struggle for power, human minds (that is, for money). And they absolutely do not give a damn about human grief, about the blood shed in religious wars (and why not "kill"). Remember how the great Russian poet A.S. Pushkin!
  • Horde
    Horde 20 July 2012 20: 34 New
    +2
    Listen, a citizen of Ukraine do you doubt Russian religion


    stupid stupidity!
  • Horde
    Horde 20 July 2012 22: 30 New
    0
    The article gives a good analysis of the advancement of the Tatar-Mongolian cavalry army in Russia - this is one of the heap of absurdities about the "Tatar-Mongolian".

    - the absurdity of the formation of a "huge army" from nomads due to the fact that nomads cannot gather in the thousandth, ten thousandth and one hundred thousandth troops. as cattle breeders, they must always take into account the possibilities of pastures. If a hundred-thousand-strong army gathers together and embarks on a march for thousands of kilometers, it is quite obvious that the first cavalry "thousands" will destroy the pastures without leaving anything to the next. If they scatter and make the transition on a wide front, then such an army will not be able coordinate their actions as will be scattered over hundreds of kilometers. The statement "an army without a forage wagon" is complete nonsense.
    -Ton the Traditional History of TI, the armament of every Mongol warrior is tens of kilograms of iron and is the weakest place for ty, shnikov since no iron mines were found in Mongolia, there are no forests for the production of charcoal in Mongolia. There are also no signs of furnaces for smelting iron . For comparison in the territory of Russia and Europe, thousands of kiln residues were found.
    -I have been to Mongolia myself and I can say that the Mongolian people absolutely do not make any impression of militancy, there are no military customs, such as the Cossacks, there are no traditions of carrying weapons, the only thing the Mongols entertain themselves during the holidays, so this is a struggle, but you won’t fight.
    -The Mongolian state, after all the conquests, stretched out for half the world and existed for hundreds of years, but it’s strange that there is no capital in reality, but only in the books of traditional books, no coins, no business documents, and the little that has come down to us is written in any languages ​​only not in Mongolian. The Catherine Germans missed by thrusting "Mongolia" into the territory of the modern Gobi.

    There are a lot of such absurdities, but there is no evidence of a medieval Mongolian state.
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 37 New
      +1
      Sir, and at the holidays of the Mongols, have you ever seen, besides wrestling, also competitions in horse racing and archery? Although it seems like the 21st century in the yard and the bow is archaism. Now combine horse racing and archery, add a saber or light sword and get the Horde rider.
      About kilograms of iron is ridiculous. The Mongolian horse could not drag a heavily armed rider, and the national nomadic formations still much later (in the Peter's army and later) wore nothing except leather armor.
      The Mongols at the time of the conquest did not have a written language, and in general the level of development was low. But the conquest of the Jurchen empire introduced the nomads with many miracles. including diplomacy, writing, bureaucracy, and government. Therefore, Yasa Genghis Khan is not written in the Mongolian dialect. And nothing, believe me, surprising. I don’t remember the name of the scientist and the name of the people, but in the 30s of the 20th century, a Soviet scientist created writing for this taiga people. Otherwise, they would use exclusively verbal creativity. After that, it was somehow not very surprising that the Mongols at that time did not have a written language. Yes, and you can not put an equal sign between those Mongols and the current, I think. Since then, how many great migrations of peoples have passed? How much has everything been mixed up ... By the way, in the territory of modern Germany or Poland, and also partially in Russia, you will no longer find living representatives of the Prussians (Borussians) tribe, for which special thanks are given to the Christian knights, who, upon instructions from the Pope, planted Christianity diligently, that the people themselves have disappeared. It only remains that the names of the football clubs of Borussia are from Dortmund and Möngengladbach.
  • kotdavin4i
    kotdavin4i 20 July 2012 16: 13 New
    +4
    Dear you, too, take it easy on the bends, if the Bible does not yet mean that this is a falsification of the churchmen, in the Old Testament - which was before the birth of Comrade Jesus Christ, it is also written like this: “The Old Testament and Easter types
    Easter itself was called a sacrifice: “On the tenth day of this month, let each one take for themselves one lamb according to their families, one lamb per family; ... and let it be kept with you until the fourteenth day of this month: then let it slaughter the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel in the evening ... and eat it with haste: it is the Passover"(Exodus 12: 2,6,11). Easter literally means “pass by,” because an angel who exterminated the first-born passed by the houses of the Jews, whose door rails were anointed with the blood of a slain lamb.
    The sacrifice is established on Nisan 14 as an annual holiday, because of which the name of the holiday is identified with the name of the sacrifice: “And may this day be remembered for you, and celebrate on this holiday to the Lord in all your generations ... And Moses called all the elders of Israel and said to them: choose and take lambs for you according to your families and kill the passover; … When you enter the land that the Lord will give you, as He said, observe this ministry. And when your children say to you: what is this ministry? say: this is an Easter sacrifice to the Lord "(Ex. 12: 14,21,25-27)."
    1. GG2012
      GG2012 20 July 2012 17: 21 New
      +4
      kotdavin4i (1) Today, 16:13 ↑
      And by the way, read Jewish sources about the life of Yeshua Ga-Nozri. These sources are also 2000 years old. They are very well preserved.
      You will be unpleasantly surprised to learn the details of Yeshua's execution, and who exactly in the Sanhedrin (the surname has survived to this day) sought the death of a heretic and an extremist follower of the "Laws of Moses".

      We must give Jews their due, the whole history of their religious life over several thousand years, carefully documented to the smallest detail.

      To what Christ preached, today's Christianity has the same relationship as a bone meal and soy cutlet to natural meat.

      And by the way, I will not say anything about the immaculate conception of Christ so as not to offend the feelings of believers. Whoever wants to, he himself will find the story of Yeshua Ben Panderus.

      PS There is a very good rule in analytics, before you rely on information, you need to check it. Have you checked your information?
      1. Slipfar
        Slipfar 21 July 2012 02: 13 New
        -1
        If it does not, write the name of these sources
        1. GG2012
          GG2012 21 July 2012 10: 48 New
          +3
          For Slipfar Today, 02:13 ↑ new

          Hammer into Gugol "Yeshua Ben-Panderus", on Russian-language Jewish sites, ancient written sources.
          I do not disseminate this knowledge.
          Everyone should make a strong-willed effort, and figure it out for himself in this matter.

          The point of these proceedings is not to gather information and then "spread rot" to Christians on the forums.
          This is necessary for your individual development.
          The real point is to figure it out, turn in the trash to the Museum, choose (or create for yourself) a new spiritual and philosophical system with which your Life will receive a new powerful impetus for development.

          Why is all this necessary?
          Because Christianity is a spiritual stagnation. But it is necessary - TO DEVELOP.
          1. Kaa
            Kaa 21 July 2012 19: 27 New
            -2
            For GG2012 UA
            To paraphrase the famous statement of Bulgakov's professor Preobrazhensky, I would like to advise, “Do not read Russian-language Jewish sites before dinner.” - “Well, there are no others, professor, no!” - “Don't read any!” And before you “pass rubbish to the museum "what you call" spiritual stagnation ", re-read it several times carefully and think over everything written, there is already" DEVELOP ". And then some" handed over the trash "not just to the museum, but also burned, introduced the concept Valhalla and Odin and so on and so forth, how it all ended - "hammer into Gugol."
            1. GG2012
              GG2012 21 July 2012 21: 08 New
              +4
              For Kaa Today, 19:27 ↑
              And how many times have you read this "spiritual stagnation" yourself ???
              Are you familiar with the history of the creation of this "spiritual stagnation"?
              Aren't you confused by the numerous textual inconsistencies and factual contradictions of this "spiritual stagnation"?
              Are you familiar with the literary sources of the ancient pre-Jewish religions? And how do you feel about the fact that in this "spiritual stagnation" there are pieces of text stupidly altered from pre-Jewish religions?
              Do you know the results of the work of astroarchaeologists?
              Aren't you confused by false indications of solar and lunar eclipses in this "spiritual stagnation"?
              Are you familiar with the results of the work of archaeologists in the Dead Sea area who established that the events described in the fairy tale "Sodom and Gomor" took place more than a thousand years before the appearance of the Jewish people?
              Continue on ?!

              And about "Valhalla and Odin" and the burning of books - this is not for me.

              And by the way, about burning books, in this craft the "Fathers of the Church" have simply succeeded in 2000 years (remind you of the history of the Library of Alexandria?)
              By the way, you know the content of the picture I have posted. This is "The Ephesians burn the books of witchcraft after the sermon of the Apostle Paul"
              And to remind you what the "Church Fathers" considered to be witchcraft books? This is KNOWLEDGE about Nature, SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE !!!

              Your inability to rise above this "spiritual stagnation" limits your development.

              So: "Saw! Shura! Saw! They are golden"
              1. Kaa
                Kaa 21 July 2012 21: 59 New
                -2
                GG2012,
                GG2012,
                Quote: GG2012
                Aren't you confused by the numerous textual inconsistencies and factual contradictions of this "spiritual stagnation"?
                Are you familiar with the literary sources of the ancient pre-Jewish religions? And how do you feel about the fact that in this "spiritual stagnation" there are pieces of text stupidly altered from pre-Jewish religions?
                Do you know the results of the work of astroarchaeologists?
                Aren't you confused by false indications of solar and lunar eclipses in this "spiritual stagnation"?
                Are you familiar with the results of the work of archaeologists in the Dead Sea area who established that the events described in the fairy tale "Sodom and Gomor" took place more than a thousand years before the appearance of the Jewish people?
                Continue on ?!

                BETTER NOT. I want to honestly repent, I haven’t read any books about Harry Pozzer, and somehow I don’t really like "The Lord of Egg" .... You, dear one, would refer to the works of the Dagon, or to the researchers of "ancient ukrov" and Runvirs, say. You yourself are not confused by the name of your "specialty" - astroarchaeologists (literally, archaeologists studying the stars)? As for "Saw, Shura" - well, I was sincerely glad that YOU, in the intervals between your spiritual searches, EVEN Ilf and Petrov mastered. In general, as the clever man wrote, even history watches have their own watchmakers. Just to become a watchmaker earlier, you had to at least finish vocational school, and history will endure everything.
              2. GG2012
                GG2012 22 July 2012 07: 57 New
                +6
                Astroarchaeology is a modern science that uses the oldest written sources (extant) and containing accurate sketches of the starry sky (of that period) and, as a rule, data on any astronomical events (of that period) - winter or summer solstice, eclipse of the Sun or the Moon, a meteorite’s fall, a comet’s passage, the location of planets in the starry sky, etc.
                With the help of modern computer modeling and approximate data of radiocarbon analysis of the written sources themselves (clay tablets), thanks to the known time rhythm of the "Sun / Moon" change, scientists establish exact date compiling these tables and drawing the starry sky of that hour.
                Thus, it becomes known for certain when exactly this or that eclipse of the Sun was, when a particular meteorite fell, when a particular comet flew by.
                In the case of a meteorite falling, the trajectory and the place of its fall are calculated, land surveys are carried out, and as a rule (if the meteorite was large), its parts, elements, chemical traces are found.
                And then the fun begins!
                By setting the exact dates of ancient astronomical events, and superimposing them on the plots described in the Old and New Testaments, even a poorly educated person will be convinced himself that the mentioned astronomical events and Bible plots diverge very much in time.
                To put it mildly, Jews as a people, or even as a tribe, did not exist then !!!
                Simply put, some especially popular Bible stories are simply stupidly torn from earlier non-Jewish sources, but with Jewish characters inserted in the stories.
                You triple historical LIE ??? !!! Yes, it seems!

                To the account "I have not read any books about Harry Pozzer, and" The Lord of the Egg " , I’ll reassure you, I’m not even suitable for this kind of literature.
                Thank you for not remembering about Batman!

                Topics: "ancient ukrov", "Mystery of Atlantis", "Bigfoot", etc., I do not discuss at all.

                If you have something to say, then speak in the language of arguments and facts (in a scientific or at least close scientific style), and comments in the format of "liquid stool", I will ignore.

                And finally, "I'll step on your tail" with my picture, because you are Kaa.

                Good to you, Sunday !!!
              3. Edumog
                Edumog 23 July 2012 01: 43 New
                +3
                I fully support! It is nice to see that there are people living in their own mind, and not according to legend, who reason sensibly, and not according to imaginary authority!
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 20 July 2012 16: 23 New
    0
    Quote: GG2012
    The Bible says "Easter !!!"

    The book of Exodus (in Russian) also says Easter. And so what? Words in different nations have the property of transformation. Crucified Christ before the Passover of Judah. On Easter itself He was resurrected. Christianity even correlates the order of calculating Easter with Jewish Passover - for there cannot be a Feast of the Resurrection earlier than Jewish Passover. Just as Jewish Passover signifies an exodus from the slavery of Egypt, so the Passover of Christ signifies an exodus from the slavery of sin.
    Something like this))))
    1. GG2012
      GG2012 20 July 2012 16: 58 New
      +4
      Guys!!! No need to get out and manipulate information! This juggling is good for playing cards !!!
      Was the episode with the execution of Yeshua Ga-Nozri described in the Old Testament ?! Reference to the Old Testament is unacceptable - different historical periods.
      The New Testament clearly says "Passover"

      I wrote my comment as an addition to " Prokhor (1) Today, 11:25 "- Celebrate, - moaned the father-abbot, - the word was: celebrate !!! Not" celibate "!!!"
      And the fact that the Bible was translated was not counted how many times (I counted 5 times), and with each translation the distorted translation got into the newly written text. Wasn’t that ?!

      Anyway, the Bible was written by Jews for Jews (the sheep of the house of Israel), what do We Slavs have to do with it?

      Everyone knows how Vladimir chose which faith to accept "Gathered the priests of the ideological, Catholic and Muslim."
      If in 988, Vladimir chose, for example, Islam - would you now throw lines from the Koran at me?
      1. kotdavin4i
        kotdavin4i 20 July 2012 17: 25 New
        +2
        but it's not about what and by whom and for whom it is written. The episode with the execution of Ha-Notsri is generally an art book, and the Bible was generally "collected" at the first "Ecumenical Council" in 325 after AD.
        1. GG2012
          GG2012 20 July 2012 17: 48 New
          +6
          The fact is that the basis of our (Slavic) worldview (+ value system), has become many times patched Christianity.
          The Chinese have their own worldview, the Hindus have their own, and the US has a newcomer imposed from the outside.
          It should not be!!! We must have our own, our SLAVIC worldview !!! That is the whole point !!!
          1. kotdavin4i
            kotdavin4i 20 July 2012 19: 35 New
            +3
            Slavic worldview - is. read about the ancient gods of Russia, the so-called Vedas, and other literature. Pretty interesting and competent. and most importantly, that in these books Gods are glorified, live in peace, and much more.
            1. GG2012
              GG2012 20 July 2012 19: 49 New
              +7
              Unfortunately, the Vedas are a modern product of neopagans.
              The "church administration" did their best for several hundred years after 988, and all pagan literature was destroyed. "Velesova Pravda" also lacks reliability.
              Paganism as a beautiful ritual for tourists is a ride. And paganism as a worldview will not work. It is necessary to objectively assess the potential of this teaching. Therefore, you need something new, modern and purely Slavic, without impurities and insertions like "well, they asked to delete it, and insert that" Mahmud always traded melons in this place. "
        2. stroporez
          stroporez 27 July 2012 17: 27 New
          0
          it infuriates me, for example. why some poats decided - it’s right for me to read and this --- no. because of this I despise religions (any) - because without exception (practically) they are based on DOGME .
  • Felix200970
    Felix200970 22 July 2012 16: 06 New
    +1
    Quote: GG2012
    Draw your own conclusions "Is it possible to trust what is written in the Bible?"

    You can trust, but only to the original source and only in the original language. After all, Muslims recognize both the Talmud and the Bible, but only in this form. And then what we use are fairy tales of translators (narrow specialists), explanations of theologians (narrow specialists). Add to this also historians (professional storytellers who do not understand anything in the exact sciences) and get an entertaining soap opera with elements of a detective story and interspersed with heavy metal rock. Although it is described (Peysakh) the adventures of the brave Colonel Moses with the withdrawal from the blow of his regiment and the seizure (or liberation) of land for the same regiment, although it had grown 40 years before the division bully
    1. GG2012
      GG2012 23 July 2012 11: 53 New
      +3
      Felix200970 Yesterday, 16:06 ↑ Quote: "And what we use is the fairy tales of translators (narrow specialists), explanations of theologians (narrow specialists)."

      Alas!!! Both in small, and in Great.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Flooding
    Flooding 20 July 2012 11: 37 New
    +5
    There are a lot of questions, and traditional historiography is not able to answer all. Indeed, in my opinion, you need not be afraid to break away from dogma and systematically re-examine many periods of distant history.
    But when they take the liberty of being responsible for everything and everyone who does not know much, who have read Nosov's and superficial "investigations" as much as 2-3 pages on the Internet, it becomes funny, you want to cry.
    Well, Russian history was distorted and turned upside down according to yours. Someone already spits at the mere mention of Karamzin (probably this someone devoted more than a dozen years of his life to the study of history and published more than one work).
    But with whom then did you know, all-knowing ours, the Poles at Legnica in 1241?
    And the Hungarians on the Chaillot River?
    Clearly, Fomenko has already explained everything. Hungarians fought with the Byzantines. The Poles, apparently, are also with some of the locals.
    But you will never be able to answer the question of how these "wild Mongols" beat the Chinese, Burmese, Indians ... On what these "savages" sailed to Japan, in the end.
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 20 July 2012 12: 30 New
      +5
      Flooding
      Well, yes, the Mongol seafarers are not even a joke already. Just explain, where suddenly the inexplicably lost super-militancy and military genius of the Mongols after 150 years from the so-called Mongol conquests?
      1. cc-20
        cc-20 20 July 2012 12: 41 New
        +3
        The Dynasty of Great Muggles ruled India until the British occupation, the Manjurian (not direct, but related to the Mangols) dynasty in China ruled until the 20th century.
        1. Alex
          Alex 20 July 2012 15: 14 New
          0
          The Mughal Empire was founded in the 16th century by Babur - a descendant of Temur (Tamerlane) and ceased to exist in the 19th century. Some historians attribute Temur to Genghisids (descendants of Genghis Khan).
          1. Egor-dis
            Egor-dis 20 July 2012 16: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: Alex
            Some historians attribute Temur to Genghisids (descendants of Genghis Khan).

            And the Tatars in their graves turn over from such a relationship and from such historians. At one time, they diligently thrashed with each other in the Volga region. Moreover, the Tatars defended (and very successfully) the "conquered" territories from Tamerlane.
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 20 July 2012 13: 22 New
        +1
        Prometey,
        Moldovans beat the superior forces of the Turks many times under the banners of Stephen the Great. And not only the Turks. It went to the brothers Wallachians and Hungarians. But Stefan cel Mare did not - ask, where did the belligerence of the Moldavians go?
        At least it is strange on this basis to question historical facts.
        But this curve can lead even further: where did the military valor of the Russian people go 60 years after the Great Victory?
        Catch a thought? Separate fragments cannot be taken out of the general historical context and illuminated from one side.
        1. Prometey
          Prometey 20 July 2012 14: 02 New
          +5
          Flooding
          The question is without catch - when did the nation of Moldova form? Well, about the ancient Dacians, please do not write.
          Quote: Flood
          Where did the military valor of the Russian people go 60 years after the Great Victory?

          What do you mean by the concept of military valor? Sorry, but after the end of the Second World War, you no longer had to take the Reichstag. You see, such a large-scale event as the "Mongol-Tatar invasion" could not be blotted out so quickly. The Mongols did not leave behind any traces of their stay, unlike the same Arabs and Turks.
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 20 July 2012 14: 19 New
            +1
            Quote: Prometey
            The question is without catch - when did the nation of Moldova form? Well, about the ancient Dacians, please do not write.

            Dacians can only be spoken of as grandparents. The formation of the nation of Moldavians is correlated only with the formation of the state. Although there are facts that speak of its earlier origin.
            Quote: Prometey
            The Mongols left no traces of their stay, unlike the same Arabs and Turks.

            Apart from the numerous khanates, hordes, with which the Russians fought for hundreds of years.
            1. Sanches
              Sanches 20 July 2012 16: 41 New
              0
              Are these many khanates and hordes the city of Kazan? wassat
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 20 July 2012 16: 59 New
                +1
                Sanches,
                if you are too lazy to take an interest in the question - let it be Kazan. It’s hard for someone to master one name.
                If there is a desire to dig, God is to help. You will learn at least a dozen post-Horde formations in half an hour.
              2. serge
                serge 20 July 2012 21: 08 New
                +1
                Are these many khanates and hordes the city of Kazan?
                ------------------------------
                Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Kyrgyz-Kaisaks ("Kazakhs"), Tajiks, Turkmens, Kalmyks, Nogays, "Crimean" Tatars, Kazan Tatars, Siberian peoples, Azerbaijanis, the peoples of the Caucasus - all these are the former so-called. "Mongol-Tatars". In fact, the word "Tatars" (not Mongols) served as a general designation for all Asian and Caucasian peoples, in Russia in any case. Read the works of Pushkin about the Caucasus, where he calls all Caucasians Tatars, and this is in the XNUMXth century.
                1. Sanches
                  Sanches 20 July 2012 22: 47 New
                  0
                  serge Today, 21:08

                  Plus. I named Kazan because only it really falls under the condition "Tatar-Mongol yoke" where "the Russians fought for hundreds of years more." I agree that the Turks and Mongols are completely different peoples, just like the Caucasians and the Mongols, and the German historians have combed all of them one size fits all. Statehood among the Turks and Caucasians, as well as civilized cities (our main ones are Otrar and Taraz) appeared long before the bandit raids of the Mongol and Dzungar nomads, who acted on the principle of "bit and disappeared." But in all seriousness they are credited with the formation of statehood among the Turks, allegedly broken up into countless tribes a la Tumba-Yumba
                  1. serge
                    serge 21 July 2012 13: 03 New
                    -1
                    The "formation of statehood" among the Central Asian and Caucasian peoples did not even take place after the Tatar (and "Tatars" were all these peoples) invasion of Russia, but already in the XNUMXth century. Before that, there were various khanates that did not bear a national character. These are no longer tribes, but they are not states either. The Tatars' campaign against Russia was a campaign of Asia against Europe (the yellow race against the white, if you will). This was not the first Asian invasion of Europe. The invasion of the Huns (Xiongnu according to Gumilev) was no less devastating and was stopped in the territory of present-day France.
                    1. Sanches
                      Sanches 22 July 2012 15: 41 New
                      0
                      Does it mean that tiny European kingdoms are states, and the analogous monarchies of the khanate are not states? Just "not tribes anymore"? Anyway, decide already, the Tatars conquered us or the Mongols, and who are the Tatars, if this is not a single people, but the name of "all these nationalities"
          2. Ivan1988
            Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 45 New
            0
            What traces of your stay do you want to see? Think for a moment, where did you come from in Russian and when did the words appear: caftan, chest, jug, hero, etc.? Seven labels have come down to our times. labels issued by the Horde khans and Khansha Taydula issued by the Russian Orthodox Church and Russian princes. If there was no invasion, since it did not leave any traces, then why did the Russian princes go to the Horde khans first in Saray-Batu, then in Saray-Berk for these labels? For tourist purposes?
      3. Flooding
        Flooding 23 July 2012 11: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Prometey
        Well, yes, the Mongol seafarers are not even a joke already.


        Engravings from the "Scroll of the Mongol Invasion" ("Myoko shurai ecotoba")



    2. Sanches
      Sanches 20 July 2012 16: 32 New
      +1
      Flooding Today, 11: 37
      But you will never be able to answer the question of how these "wild Mongols" beat the Chinese, Burmese, Indians ... On what these "savages" sailed to Japan, in the end.

      According to legend, the Mongols never sailed to Japan - they were killed by a storm that began at the right moment. But the very fact of the Mongols' attempt to swim across the sea is doubtful, especially since they never reached Japan. Burmese, Indians - has anyone heard of the Indo-Mongols ??? And the Great Magols are Hindus, they have absolutely nothing in common with the Mongols, except for the coincidence of the name like "if you make 4 mistakes in the word water, you get beer." Even the conquest of Chinese cities does not have a solid confirmation and looks more like typical bibisical propaganda - they say the Chinese themselves surrendered themselves and their technologies to wild barbarians, so they are corrupt))) and no evidence is provided
      1. Flooding
        Flooding 20 July 2012 17: 11 New
        +1
        Sanches,
        Japan
        The fact is that before the Mongols were hit by a storm, they managed to capture two islands - Tsushima and Iki. Legend?
        India
        The expansion of the Mongols into the Indian principalities - 1221, 1241, 1246.
        China
        Do you also question the uprising of the "red bands" raised against Mongol rule?
        1. Sanches
          Sanches 20 July 2012 18: 52 New
          0
          But this dynasty has a typical Chinese surname, and even the currency in China is so named - "yuan". There were also uprisings against other Chinese dynasties. And almost all the Turkic states except the Ottoman Empire were attributed to the post-Horde formations, not hesitating with a broad wave of the pen. What is the substitution of history, if from time immemorial even languages ​​have been distorted - they shorten words, change, rearrange the stress, throw out cases and invent new ones, so that only peoples stop understanding each other. The question is: WHOM is the "Mongol-Tatar yoke" profitable for and WHAT is the benefit?
          1. Flooding
            Flooding 20 July 2012 19: 39 New
            +1
            Quote: Sanches

            But this dynasty has a typically Chinese surname, and even the currency in China is so named - "yuan". There were also uprisings against other Chinese dynasties.


            What are you speaking about? What kind of dynasty? I spoke of a rebellion against the Mongols, as a result of which the Ming dynasty reigned (really Chinese). And you, excuse me, some vinaigrette ...

            Quote: Sanches
            And almost all Turkic states except the Ottoman Empire attributed nothing more to the post-Horde formations, with nothing but a wide sweep of the pen.


            I see more reasons to attribute the aforementioned khanates, in which the Chingizids ruled, to the fragments of the Mongol empire, than to act like you - "do not hesitate" and armed with Fomenko's theories, to rethink the whole history. I think such a serious step requires very weighty arguments, deep knowledge of the subject, a systematic approach and a desire to find out the truth. You are driven by one desire - to groan and dirty.
            1. Sanches
              Sanches 20 July 2012 20: 11 New
              +1
              If only to groan and dirty the great Mongols, who are more than a hundred years behind any of their "fragments", from the same Kazakhs, for example. Unfortunately, I have not read Fomenko. Global deception takes place in other sciences as well - for example, in ... geography! We'll have to digress from the topic, but a very interesting example from Greenland. The official opinion is that this is an insignificant island with an area of ​​2 sq. Km, all covered with ice, absolutely completely. The largest continent Eurasia has an area of ​​130 million square meters. km. - i.e. should be more than Greenland at 000 times a penny. But take a look at the satellite map. It looks like Eurasia is SO MUCH times bigger than Greenland ?? Yes, compared to Greenland, both neighboring Americas themselves look like insignificant islands. In addition, no matter how much you zoom in on the map, the relief, even sea foam and ice floes on the water - all this is visible only along the shores, a little deep into Greenland - and a dull white spot, white as a blank sheet of paper. Say - the ice just shines? Then why in Antarctica you can clearly see every fold, every glare of the sun? And these disappearing settlements of Danish and Norwegian colonists, another interesting thing, a reason to think ... The question is not entirely on the topic, but also about global deception
          2. Ivan1988
            Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 48 New
            0
            And the same question applies to any conqueror? But was the empire of Alexander the Great and to whom his conquests were beneficial? And the empire of the Persians? What about the Ottoman Empire? The conquests of Napoleon, the British Empire, over which the sun did not set? Who benefits from this?
    3. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 09 New
      0
      there is only one logic in science: the truth, the truth that is confirmed by actual data (documents, artifacts, scientific data, for example, dating using physical methods). if there is not enough data, speculation begins, free interpretations, juggling, fitting to the desired, etc. .. sailing from the mainland to Japan even 2000 years ago was not a problem, or do you think it is as difficult as sailing from Europe to America in those time?
  • Larus
    Larus 20 July 2012 11: 37 New
    +3
    As usual, everything was written for us, as we need to know, and not how it really was)))) I read an alternative version for a long time (I don’t remember the author), it was just my own army, which guarded the princely borders, and those who He refused to pay tithing for protection in her favor, was punished in this way. Therefore, it included many Russian and border peoples.
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 51 New
      0
      And the author did not explain why "his own army, which guarded the princely frontiers", gave the princes of the rest of Russia labels for reigning in the city of Vladimir, and for some reason not in Russian? It would be funny for the Russians to give the Russians such a kind of license for the right to engage in princely activity for some reason in a foreign language?
      1. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 20: 17 New
        0
        please, a link where you can look at the genuine "label on reign" of the 13th century, albeit not in a "foreign language"
  • Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 20 July 2012 11: 40 New
    +4
    In general, with history there are only one inconsistencies! If you start to think, your head will swell ...
    And with the yoke in general, there are monstrous piles of inconsistencies - the very idea of ​​campaigns of hundreds of thousands of armies in the winter, when now you can get to remote places only by helicopter, can not be taken seriously!
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 20 July 2012 11: 50 New
      +1
      Brother Sarych,

      our miraculous heroes, sitting out all day at the computer, take them out in the cold to the park for a walk - an hour later with snot. And in the far north, however, peoples lived and live.
      Probably not everything can be measured with our modern measure ...
    2. Prohor
      Prohor 20 July 2012 12: 07 New
      +6
      What a hundred thousand!
      Here in front of me is a book from the series "Library of World Literature for Children", 1979, vol. 1 "Old Russian Tales". We read "From" The Legend of the Mamayev Massacre ":
      ".... And the Grand Duke ordered to count those killed and those who survived. The princes and boyars counted for four days. And the Moscow boyar Vorontsov said:
      “Killed, sir, two hundred and fifty thousand, but fifty thousand remained alive. The Tatars were beaten eight hundred thousand. "

      Rate the scale of this nonsense !!! More than a million killed in one battle !!!
    3. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 20 New
      +1
      No, in Russia, maybe. “Ukrainians” and I have one thing: we are ready to believe in any nonsense, examples: 1) nobody but Putin; 2) the bible ...
  • 8 company
    8 company 20 July 2012 11: 56 New
    +3
    The author raised a lot of questions (by the way, where is he hiding?), But the most serious one is the problem of feeding a huge number of horses. Indeed, what did they eat in the winter? Well, damn it, not reindeer after all. And as for the food of the Mongols themselves, I read somewhere such a story: in the morning the rider puts a layer of raw meat on the horse’s back under the saddle, rides for a day, and in the evening eats this steak, richly soaked with horse sweat and beaten off by his own /// oh. Maybe a bike, or maybe not. winked
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 20 July 2012 12: 07 New
      +2
      8 company,
      this recipe, as I recall, is from South American Gaucho cuisine.
      And the Mongolian horses, due to their unpretentiousness, really, not far behind the reindeer.
      1. Vyalik
        Vyalik 20 July 2012 15: 21 New
        +4
        I read from everyone not beloved Bushkov his version of these events. He writes that there was a war between the princes, and not external intervention. And they could have used mercenaries of the Tatars, although the Cossacks were also called Tatars. And many names of the same Mongol are the nicknames of the soldiers who participated in campaigns to pacify the principalities. And there I read an interesting moment. Russia began to pay tribute to the Tatars after about 20 years. Is this an interesting fact, how can this be if the Mongols conquered Russia? But in general, history, is it someone said, a corrupt girl and corresponded to please the rulers and whether those who want to rule the nations. And a lot there, as they say, is considered, but this does not prove that this was happening.
    2. Prohor
      Prohor 20 July 2012 16: 15 New
      +1
      I don’t know what about the horses, but about people - I read in a hunting book a long time ago that the army of Ivan the Terrible, on a campaign in Kazan, was fed exclusively by the gifts of the forests that were traversed (hunting).
      Can you imagine ?!
      What is our forest in this case? b, and only! crying
    3. stroporez
      stroporez 28 July 2012 09: 24 New
      0
      Quote: Company 8
      but the most serious is the problem of feeding a huge number of horses. Indeed, what did they eat in the winter? Well, damn it, not reindeer after all

      I’ve lived in Yamal for 20 years, so the Khanty (local people) never flock a herd of more than 800 animals for the winter. and even in the spring (and spring in the north of the kapets, what a violent one) there is no herd of more than 3000 heads. unlike the anecdotal image, they are very thoughtful people
    4. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 26 New
      0
      Yes, this is possible: jerky (basturma), by the way, is very tasty, I do it myself, though I eat a little later. there is no problem of feeding horses for orthodox historians (a technical trifle), as well as where (and from what cataclysm) those same nomads multiplied phenomenally, because Asia was not enough for them
  • The centurion
    The centurion 20 July 2012 12: 32 New
    -1
    Nightmare. Another Rezun drew.
  • redcod
    redcod 20 July 2012 12: 56 New
    +3
    Something these horses from the photos is painfully small for the warriors of the Shiver of the Universe. These ponies of a rider with weapons (armor, shield, spear, bow, arrow, saber, mace) and supplies (tent, torso with water and a weekly supply (this was mandatory) of the kurta (and not cool) were unlikely to survive. half-year-old non-tribal foals reach the size.
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 53 New
      0
      A Mongolian horse is generally medium-sized.
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 27 New
      0
      you demand too much from a legend / myth
  • AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 20 July 2012 13: 14 New
    +6
    An interesting point of view and nothing more. Similarly with Klyuchevsky or Solovyov, you can read and take note. Interesting is the opinion of Fomenko and Nosvsky on the problem of distorting history. There is a lot of evidence of the absence of the so-called "INVASION". I am more inclined to believe in internecine wars, but not in "IGO".
    1. Aventurinka
      Aventurinka 20 July 2012 13: 47 New
      +5
      Quote: AK-74-1
      I am more inclined to believe in internecine wars, but not in "IGO".

      I support you in this matter. In this version, everything looks much more logical than in the "classic" version of the "invasion".
    2. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 56 New
      0
      So is it as a result of civil wars an empire was formed with the capital on the territory of China? Where did the son of Genghis Ogedei sit by the great khan? And after a few years, it was the participants in this "internecine war" who didn’t make their hearts full of fun, rushed to Europe and in 1241 heaped upon the pious Henry near Lignitz and later the Hungarians led by King Bela on the Chaillot River?
    3. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 30 New
      0
      science, including history, is not an object of faith; let us leave it to the adherents of religions. cults, but truth, backed by evidence
  • viruskvartirus
    viruskvartirus 20 July 2012 14: 33 New
    +4
    Yes, the picture does not add up ... and the issue with genetics yoke lasted like 240 years ... but "the share of East Eurasian haplogroups in the Russian population was only 2%. That is, a very small amount. Almost as small as in the gene pool of Poles (1.5%) or the north of Europe, where certainly there were no "Tatar-Mongolian deposits" "http://www.historylib.org/historybooks/EV--Balanovskaya--OP--Balanovskiy_Russk
    iy-genofond-na-Russkoy-ravnine / 50 is weird isn't it?
    1. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 31 New
      0
      and this is an argument
  • Alex
    Alex 20 July 2012 15: 30 New
    0
    I don’t remember in which book I read that the Mongols proper in the army of Batu Khan were only 4 thousand, or about a tenth. Then it turns out that the number of "Mongolian" troops is about 40 thousand.
    And the Mongols had wagons. Families followed the master, collecting trophies and prisoners. At least under Genghis Khan it was like that.
    1. ICT
      ICT 20 July 2012 16: 50 New
      +1
      and who ever counted the number of Slavic genes in the Tatar blood, it seems to me that we changed them more, and not they us
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 32 New
      0
      source? or did you ride in a wagon train?
  • Irek
    Irek 20 July 2012 15: 31 New
    +3
    In Russia, "the thickness of the snow cover, the area of ​​herbage, as well as the general quality of phytocenoses" will always be the main element of protection against an invader
  • Leisure
    Leisure 20 July 2012 15: 34 New
    0
    Everything will only be checked and clarified by a time machine. In the meantime, we rely on various biased sources. But thinking and dreaming in our country is not prohibited yet, go for it.
    1. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 36 New
      0
      there are no biased sources, there are unreliable sources (the father of history, Herodotus described the continent in the sowing ocean, Hyperborea and people with dog heads) and biased authors (the evidence of foreigners about ivan-4 is considered by many to be such)
  • hellbringer
    hellbringer 20 July 2012 15: 59 New
    +1
    The next version of the story based on books from Western monks and as part of a story pleasing to the West.
    And I believe and believe, and if you like more, I like that the Russians went to the Tatars and Europe. Those who were called cataphrages were essentially Russian cavalry. Judean Khazaria, Russians overwhelmed. Therefore, we are Russian and there is such persecution now, they are afraid.
    Do not let you fool your head with pro-Western historians; everything requires careful study by facts and not rewriting by other authors.
    Glory to Russia !!!

    ps and the minus article - boool
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 12: 58 New
      0
      Cataphracts were heavily armed professionals, mostly mercenaries. You could meet anyone there, if only there was a skilled warrior. They were often used to suppress the riots of the people, so it was not a pity for foreigners to exterminate the rebels. not tribesmen because.
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 38 New
      0
      consider and believe in what is pleasing to your right, just don’t have to climb with “faith” in history, yet it is an (exact) science
  • wown
    wown 20 July 2012 16: 38 New
    +1
    I first encountered these supermen when I read Bushkov. There is something to think about. There is a version that all this is an invasion, nothing more than a power struggle. that everything was started by Yaroslav Vsevolodovich, Nevsky’s father. because the Russians were always cut in the winter, at least at that time
    1. Zerkalo
      Zerkalo 21 July 2012 00: 23 New
      0
      I remember in the lessons of history, our teacher told me that there is a version about the struggle between Moscow and Tver (this is about the Battle of Kulikovo). Like found a bunch of Russian weapons and units of the Mongol.
      1. Ivan1988
        Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 03 New
        0
        The struggle between Moscow and Tver, and Oleg Ryazansky also managed to take part there, is not a fairy tale. The Tver and Moscow princes constantly challenged each other seniority in the right to rule Russia, it came from the time of Yuri and Ivan Danilovich (the latter was later nicknamed Kalita). Both those and others understood that the power of the Horde impedes the development of Russia and it must be thrown off. Only Muscovites considered it necessary to build up their strength and their own, then they could manage, and the Tverichi believed that it was possible to attract the help of a powerful neighbor in the person of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, who is also an enemy of the Horde and, therefore, a natural friend of the Russian state. History reasoned. who turned out to be right.
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 39 New
      0
      yeah, in the summer, out of habit, they left for antalya
  • Storyteller
    Storyteller 20 July 2012 19: 12 New
    +2
    The Tatar gene, you say you found it in the Russians? Well, well ... Link pzhlst. It is believed that we were captured by the Mongols, not the Tatars - there must be Mongolian genes! But they are not. In general, I do not believe that someone could have conquered us. Russians are not predisposed to this. In any case, the reliably confirmed history of Russia (after the Time of Troubles) shows that it is impossible to conquer us. I do not believe that our ancestors were sicker. All this nonsense about three hundred years of slavery was invented by the German "scientists" hired by the Romanovs to write the history of Russia justifying their accession to the throne.
    By the way, the author in vain pins on the French map - it fixes the actual state of affairs at that time, outlines the actual boundaries of Russian possessions.
    1. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 55 New
      0
      that means the Russians are not predisposed to be conquered. therefore, everyone else is predisposed, come on tomorrow to conquer everyone, they’re ready, waiting ... by the way, does Russia drain its resources to the West and everything, including brains in exchange for greenish pieces of paper, does not look like its actual conquest? and about the modern interpretation of history in the Catherine-German interpretation, the truth
  • Dimitr
    Dimitr 20 July 2012 19: 14 New
    +4
    In addition to Bushkov, historians wrote about this, Bushkov popularized about it. The version has the right to be, at least it is more convincing than many studies of monsters of classical history!
    1. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 20: 58 New
      0
      I ask you not to confuse Bushkov-fiction, he has the right to liberties, but "liberty" is a "monster of classical history" - an unacceptable construction in Russian
  • darkman70
    darkman70 20 July 2012 19: 30 New
    -7
    The article is anti-scientific nonsense, having no relation to historical science. But I watch people being ... seriously discussing something here. As they say - to what progress has come.
    Of course there was no invasion. All Russian, Chinese annals, messages of Western travelers, the Mongolian secret legend, annals of Rashid-ad-din - all this is fake. Not only that, some evil geniuses even managed to throw linden artifacts on time even during archaeological excavations. There was no battle at Kalka, no defense of Kozelsk, no battle of Kulikovo ... there was none of this. With whom, then, Evpatiy Kolovrat fought, if the Mongol-Tatars were invented. And of course he fought with his own Russian people .. probably. And most likely he was invented at all, like the yoke itself. Who are these bastards who have managed to falsify Russian history for so many centuries. ??? I have only one version ... These are aliens. They are ... bastards.
    I propose to rewrite the entire history of Russia. Everything is as it was. You need to start from scratch, preferably from the time of the mammoths.
    1. darkman70
      darkman70 21 July 2012 00: 54 New
      0
      Well ... aliens somehow even managed to put cons. Here are the sneaky ones. laughing
      1. Dimitr
        Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 08 New
        +1
        Dmitry, it seems to me that you are overly emotional. Nobody says that all the battles that you listed did not exist! But here is an interesting question about the warring parties! Of course, rewriting is not necessary, but something clarification would not hurt! By the way, nice to meet you, also Dmitry!
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 21: 06 New
      0
      Dmitry, they’re right: there is no reliable evidence of the yoke, etc. But you shouldn’t rewrite history, we’ve tried it many times, but nothing, history is one for all, as long as it has white spots, but the process has begun, tomorrow we’ll to know more. it is necessary to approach it soberly, without emotion, nationalism, "false patriotism", "great power", etc.
  • kosmos84
    kosmos84 20 July 2012 20: 00 New
    +7
    a way to at least slightly strengthen the position on the fronts of the information war is to require prosecutors to institute criminal proceedings on the fact of inciting ethnic hatred by teaching false historical information.
    There are lots of examples. Recall the Tatar yoke. We are told that the Tatars oppressed the Russians, but they do not say that the Russians plundered the Tatars no less famously. As a result, Russians have an insult to their fellow citizens on a racial basis. Moreover, the insult is wrong. We are all good, and behaved exactly the same. Or, for example, last year in Kazan they celebrated (or tried to celebrate) the day of the memory of the Tatars, who defended the city from Russian troops.

    There is a clear confrontation on a national basis. Although, in fact, the city was not taken by the Russians, but by the Russian-Tatar (!) Troops. Shig-Alei's cavalry provided cover for the streltsy units - and if he is German, then I am ready to recognize myself as the pope.

    Russian-Tatar troops took Kazan, eliminating the influence of Istanbul on the Volga, and defending civilians from predatory raids, freed tens of thousands of slaves. It is enough to recognize the participation of the Tatars in this noble cause - and the national question loses its urgency.

    But I am not a lawyer, and I do not know how to roll a statement in such a way that they will not be dismissed and sent to hell.
    By the way, here Dallas’s plan on inciting ethnic hatred has been repeatedly mentioned. And no one paid attention to how it is being implemented. Also at school.

    Good teachers diligently sow discord between the largest national groups - Russians and Tatars. The whole course of history is full of how the Tatars attacked, how the Russians went to the Tatars, etc. But it is not indicated anywhere that the Tatars are our symbiote, the partner nation.

    Tatar units ALWAYS were part of the Russian troops, participated in all Russian wars - both internecine and in battles with an external enemy. It can be said that the Tatars are simply Russian light cavalry. Or Russian - Tatar wrought army.

    The Tatars fought against Mamai on the Kulikovo Field, together with the Moscow army, the Tatars were the first to attack the enemy in the Swedish and Livonian war; in 1410, the Polish-Russian-Tatar army was crushed by the Crusaders near Grunwald, breaking the back of the Teutonic Order - moreover, it was the Tatars who took the first blow.


    Sometimes people ask me why I don’t mention Lithuanians. So I mention - Russian. The Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a Russian state, with the Russian population, who spoke Russian, and even the clerical work was conducted in Russian.
    And you thought that a small racist country on the Baltic coast was once a great state?
    7: 0 in favor of the West.


    For four thousand years we lived with the Tatars side by side. They fought, were friends, were related. They smashed the Romans, Crusaders, Ottomans, Poles, French, Germans ...
    And now, our children open the textbook, and they are dripping from every page: enemies, enemies, enemies ... Legally, this is called inciting ethnic hatred. But in fact - the usual information war
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 21 July 2012 12: 19 New
      +4
      Quote: kosmos84
      between the largest national groups - Russians and Tatars


      Since when have Russians in Russia become a national group?

      Quote: kosmos84
      Tatars are just Russian light cavalry. Or Russian-Tatar forged army.


      Maybe better: the Russians are the Tatars on foot, and the Tatars are the mounted Russians? So even funnier.
    2. Kaa
      Kaa 22 July 2012 01: 26 New
      +2
      I agree with your opinion. Who is against - find 10 (or less) differences between the warring parties on the Kulikovo field.
    3. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 21: 17 New
      -1
      1) Volga Bulgars, which Ivan-4 troops conquered, having taken Kazan, were hardly satisfied with this. but, as you know, the winners write history, therefore, Vanka is a “collector of Russian lands” (+ the Astrakhan khanate + Siberia with a Yermak, to which he is absolutely not involved + the Novgorod campaign, albeit with costs, numerous victims of the civilian population, but enlargement / association ) so that the memory of the defenders of Kazan can and should be honored, and Vanya-4 will still remain a scumbag
  • romb
    romb 20 July 2012 20: 01 New
    0
    Modern Mongols as a nation do not have, or rather, have almost no relation to the "Mongols" of the time of Genghis Khan. The ethnogenesis of today's Mongolian nation occurred much later and is largely the result of the symbiosis of the Tungus-Manchu and Tibetan tribes.

    The word "Mongol" in those years did not refer to a people or any nation, but was a military-political term meaning that a decision was made at a kurultai (congress) by voting - a show of hands.
    1. Dimitr
      Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: romb
      The word "Mongol" in those years did not refer to a people or any nation, but was a military-political term meaning that a decision was made at a kurultai (congress) by voting - a show of hands.

      Add nothing - respect!
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 21: 20 New
      0
      here is the question: was there an Asian people in those days capable of passing "from sea to sea"?
  • kosmos84
    kosmos84 20 July 2012 20: 03 New
    0
    ALL THIS WRITTEN AND IN MY COMMENTS FIND A FULL VERSION-SET SEVEN BETWEEN NATIONAL ROSENE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    1. romb
      romb 20 July 2012 20: 09 New
      0
      Have you ever thought that Genghis Khan was the first initiator of Eurasian integration?
      1. kosmos84
        kosmos84 20 July 2012 20: 19 New
        +2
        I THINK ABOUT HE REPRESENTED THE SIZES OF EURASIA
      2. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 21: 23 New
        0
        INTEGRATOR: according to legend, he began by destroying the people (manguts?). So now, some are trying to destroy Russia / Russians, because of them?
  • TAGIR
    TAGIR 20 July 2012 21: 25 New
    +3
    When the Russian Tsar showed the Chechen Imam Shamil a map of Russia and the place of Chechnya on this map, he was dumbfounded and said something like this: "If I knew this before, I would never have gone against Russia."
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 08 New
      0
      You are mistaken, Shamil was not a Chechen. He was an Avar. And the Russian tsar could not show the place of Chechnya on the map, for there was no such state during the Caucasian Wars of the Republic of Ingushetia. Chechens, who with a certain mentality, like to remember Shamil, but do not want to remember. that the leader was foreign.
      1. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 21: 27 New
        0
        in those days there was no clear definition / identity of Caucasian peoples, they all fought with the desire of the Russian predator to subjugate the Caucasus, especially religion. differences. and (legend?) believable
  • TAGIR
    TAGIR 20 July 2012 21: 59 New
    0
    Who cares about the Tatars follow the link http://www.bibliotekar.ru/rusTatishcev/19.htm or http://www.tatar-gazeta.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=461:2011
    -05-01-06-31-57&catid=63:2011-01-20-17-21-26&Itemid=114
  • Horde
    Horde 20 July 2012 22: 32 New
    +4
    The article gives a good analysis of the advancement of the Tatar-Mongolian cavalry army in Russia - this is one of the heap of absurdities about the "Tatar-Mongolian".

    - the absurdity of the formation of a "huge army" from nomads due to the fact that nomads cannot gather in the thousandth, ten thousandth and one hundred thousandth troops. as cattle breeders, they must always take into account the possibilities of pastures. If a hundred-thousand-strong army gathers together and embarks on a march for thousands of kilometers, it is quite obvious that the first cavalry "thousands" will destroy the pastures without leaving anything to the next. If they scatter and make the transition on a wide front, then such an army will not be able coordinate their actions as will be scattered over hundreds of kilometers. The statement "an army without a forage wagon" is complete nonsense.
    -Ton the Traditional History of TI, the armament of every Mongol warrior is tens of kilograms of iron and is the weakest place for ty, shnikov since no iron mines were found in Mongolia, there are no forests for the production of charcoal in Mongolia. There are also no signs of furnaces for smelting iron . For comparison in the territory of Russia and Europe, thousands of kiln residues were found.
    -I have been to Mongolia myself and I can say that the Mongolian people absolutely do not make any impression of militancy, there are no military customs, such as the Cossacks, there are no traditions of carrying weapons, the only thing the Mongols entertain themselves during the holidays, so this is a struggle, but you won’t fight.
    -The Mongolian state, after all the conquests, stretched out for half the world and existed for hundreds of years, but it’s strange that there is no capital in reality, but only in the books of traditional books, no coins, no business documents, and the little that has come down to us is written in any languages ​​only not in Mongolian. The Catherine Germans missed by thrusting "Mongolia" into the territory of the modern Gobi.

    There are a lot of such absurdities, but there is no evidence of a medieval Mongolian state.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 21 July 2012 12: 23 New
      -1
      Quote: Horde
      according to the Traditional History of TI, the armament of every Mongol warrior is tens of kilograms of iron


      Nonsense. Padded bathrobe, fur coat. What kilograms of iron. What are you reading?

      Quote: Horde
      there are no military customs


      forgot to mention traditional archery
      1. Dimitr
        Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 16 New
        +2
        Quote: Flood
        Nonsense. Padded bathrobe, fur coat. What kilograms of iron. What are you reading?

        This is not rubbish, many prominent historians wrote about the armor of the Mongol-Tatars, about their martial art. Indeed, there are many inconsistencies in these descriptions!
      2. Horde
        Horde 22 July 2012 12: 40 New
        +3
        Nonsense. Padded bathrobe, fur coat. What kilograms of iron. What are you reading?


        it’s easier not to make turns, dear, one should not use such strong expressions against all known facts.
        according to TI, a Mongol warrior had not only a saber and armor, all their iron, but also armor for a horse, and even imagine a file for sharpening weapons, an arrow bow with iron tips, despite the fact that iron was terribly expensive, and it doesn’t exist in Mongolia .

        Abyli mention traditional archery


        Archery is present at some festivals, the custom is not widespread among people, and even for Mongolia it is more exotic. However, for people to look like a worthy descendant of the memory of the great ancestors, archery alone is clearly not enough, the main thing is that you need to deal with cold weapons.
        1. Horde
          Horde 22 July 2012 12: 42 New
          +2
          Abyli mention traditional archery


          Archery is present at some festivals, the custom is not widespread among people, and even for Mongolia it is more exotic. However, for people to look like a worthy descendant of the memory of the great ancestors, archery alone is clearly not enough, the main thing is that you need to deal with cold weapons.
        2. Flooding
          Flooding 22 July 2012 17: 52 New
          -2
          Quote: Horde
          according to TI, a Mongol warrior had not only a saber and armor, all their iron, but also armor for a horse, and even imagine a file for sharpening weapons, an arrow bow with iron tips, despite the fact that iron was terribly expensive, and it doesn’t exist in Mongolia


          Horde,
          Firstly, there are iron ore deposits in Mongolia (Tumurtei, Bargilt and others. Today, 10 such deposits have been explored)
          Secondly, paragraph one mentions only medium and large deposits, which are economically feasible to develop. But just at the time considered by us, the needs of artisanal production were covered by any more or less field with access to the surface.
          Thirdly, the special importance of the blacksmith's craft among the Mongols and its special position among other traditional crafts were noted, for example, by Groom-Grzhimailo after his travels in Mongolia. So the blacksmith could not interrupt his work even if a high official visited him at that time. For the reason that blacksmithing was considered very ancient among the Mongols.
          Fourth, referring to the armament of the heavy cavalry, you cannot say that the entire Mongolian army was armed in a similar way. It is strange to somehow seriously discuss the topic with which the boys are more or less familiar from the school day.
          1. Horde
            Horde 22 July 2012 19: 59 New
            +2
            Firstly, there are iron ore deposits in Mongolia (Tumurtei, Bargilt

            Regarding iron ore deposits, almost all of them were discovered with the help of the Soviet Union already in the second half of the 20th century, there is nowhere to find information about the location of ancient mining or mines. They have no access to the surface of the ore.
            We will count the minimum amount of iron on a Mongol warrior on a heavy armed warrior, sword, scabbard, armor, arrows with iron tips, stirrups, horse armor, spear tip, knife, file for sharpening weapons, helmet. All this iron pulled on the warrior 20 kg, on the horse the weight of the plate defense is 15-20 kg. The share of the heavily armed army in relation to the rest of the troops is 20%. The Batu Khan invasion army was 150 thousand soldiers. The total amount of iron with the horse on the heavily armed soldiers of 40 kg is multiplied by 20000 soldiers.
            Light-warriors have an average weight of weapons of 5-6 kg. The total weight of iron is 120 thousand. Arm is 720 tons of iron. Together with more than one and a half thousand tons of war iron. This is not an absolute quantity! Still, to melt such an amount of iron, you need to have five times more charcoal! !! I repeat that in Mongolia there is not enough forest for industrial development!



            I want to say that iron production is very labor-consuming and difficult, and therefore a terribly expensive process about any thousands of tons smelted in raw-air furnaces, and other ancient people did not even speak. Therefore, all the stories about Mongol warriors chained to iron are not more than the inflamed imagination of cabinet scientists who can’t imagine that it takes 1-30 people / hours of effort, even continuous, to produce even about 40kg of poor quality iron.
            http://chronologia.org/
            http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10592&forum


            = DCForumID14 & viewmode = all # 55
            http://chronologia.org/dcforum/DCForumID14/10770.html это ссылки сильнейшие научные интернет ресурсы.
            These are just some of the basic questions for TI.
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2012 11: 04 New
              0
              Horde,
              Do you argue with yourself? Ungrateful occupation, drop this thing.

              Quote: Horde
              iron was terribly expensive, and there is none in Mongolia


              Quote: Horde
              With regards to iron ore deposits, almost all of them were discovered with the help of the Soviet Union in the second half of the 20th century, there is nowhere to find information about the location of ancient mining or mines.


              Very consistent and logical. By the way, about surface mining of iron ore in Mongolia: they still have a place to be. And very ancient. In particular, in the Ero-Gol river basin. It is assumed that the development began in the middle of the 1st millennium BC.

              The following is an example of your logical reasoning.

              Quote: Horde
              according to TI, the Mongol warrior had not only a saber and armor all their iron, but also armor for a horse


              Quote: Horde
              The share of heavily armed troops in relation to other troops is 20%


              So after all, not a Mongol warrior, but only every fifth?
              That's enough to spend time in kindergarten.
              1. Horde
                Horde 23 July 2012 16: 58 New
                +1
                In particular, in the Ero-Gol river basin. It is assumed that the development began in the middle of the 1st millennium BC.


                link please! And do not forget that the Mongols were developing the deposit.

                So after all, not a Mongol warrior, but only every fifth?
                That's enough to spend time in kindergarten.


                What's not clear? According to TI, it is estimated that the proportion of heavily armed warriors was 20%. Hence the calculation.
                In 20-21 centuries, in many countries, experiments were carried out on iron smelting by the raw-blowing method, and so all of these experimenters didn’t get iron suitable for forging despite the heroic efforts of enthusiasts. ARMIES AND SPEECHES CAN'T BE !!!

                Do you argue with yourself? Ungrateful occupation, drop this thing.


                That's enough to waste time on kindergarten


                However, fewer and fewer people believe in your stories about the Tatar-Mongolian race, even those who do not read Academician Fomenko, but simply turn on their brains and look around and into the past not through the eyes of Tradik-German-Russophobic academicians of the 18-19th centuries And their pathetic last ones who are poking around without meaning and benefit for Motherland and science in the mud of virtual-hypothetical "Veliky Novgorod" and "Kulikovo field" in the Tula region, then they begin to notice that the size of the country of our Rus does not fit, like 1/6 of the land, but it was even more in the best times! with a scanty worthless, Russophobic TRADITIONAL HISTORY. The Russian people are great and powerful and have not been in our foreseeable history, so that someone could conquer us in a fair battle, and even more so useless dirty primitive savages from the brains of Western scientists and our collaborators' henchmen inflamed with hatred of the Russian people.
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 24 July 2012 11: 11 New
                  0
                  Horde,

                  to kindergarten tell tales!
                  He who has ears, let him hear. What I wrote is enough for a reasonable person. And pay attention, I have never mentioned the size of the Mongol-Tatar army. It is you who constantly bring in hundreds of thousands of horsemen and thousands of tons of iron.

                  Quote: Flood
                  There are a lot of questions, and traditional historiography is not able to answer all. Indeed, in my opinion, you need not be afraid to break away from dogma and systematically re-examine many periods of distant history.


                  But brush aside the facts?
                  By the way, in the late 80s, I participated in the excavation of barrows in the territory of the MSSR.
                  I saw and felt what is impossible according to your words.
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 24 July 2012 19: 25 New
                    +1
                    It is you who constantly bring in hundreds of thousands of horsemen and thousands of tons of iron.


                    I can't help but talk about it, iron is the basis of any civilization. Who was the first to talk about TMI Karamzin, Solovyov? I still counted at a minimum, and in fact, these first historians spoke about 400 thousand Batukhan's army, but then they besieged back. Weapons of the 13-14 centuries, and armor are presented in museums, therefore, make rough conclusions about the state The Mongolian economy of that era is quite simple to do, but the results are discouraging, the Mongols were able to arm and equip a huge army for conquest, to capture half of the world. Only the advanced countries of the world, Russia and England in the 18th century, were able to produce thousands of tons of iron in the 19th century, again according to TI, and the times when human civilization was able to overcome the "iron starvation" is the middle of the XNUMXth century.
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 25 July 2012 12: 07 New
                      0
                      Horde,

                      let's resort to an interesting example of the Roman Empire.
                      The number of legions of the Roman army of the late sample reached 400 thousand (!!!) people. Of which almost half were heavily armed warriors. And this is at the end of the second century A.D. (one thousand years before the period under consideration). It should be noted that iron in the weapons and armor of the army of the early Roman Empire (1-3 centuries AD) was used very widely, crowding out bronze everywhere. In addition, there was a tendency to increase the weight of armor (scaly armor). So count ... Do not you get the very hundreds and thousands of tons?

                      Quote: Horde
                      Only the advanced countries of the world Russia and England in the 18th century were able to establish the production of thousands of tons of iron.

                      The need has grown at times. Take an interest in the development of metallurgy in the countries of Central Asia of the early Middle Ages - you will be surprised.
                      1. Horde
                        Horde 25 July 2012 16: 51 New
                        0
                        about Rome read the forum

                        http://topwar.ru/14122-disciplina-v-rimskoy-armii.html#comment-id-346274
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 25 July 2012 19: 29 New
                        0
                        In my opinion, there is nothing to read there. Again the same references to the "great" scientists Fomenko and Nosovsky.
                        Answer me only two or three questions:
                        1. Explain the images of those very incapable of shooting catapults and ballist on ancient scrolls. Take for example Japanese engravings depicting Mongol warships.
                        2. Explain the spread of vulgar Latin in the territory of modern. Romania and Moldova under the non-existent Ancient Rome.
                        3. and a few comments about the ancient ruins, which probably in terms of man-days of manual labor with imperfect tools give numbers that cast doubt on the very fact of their existence.

                        You do not think that in five hundred years the followers of the Nosovs will question the existence of Hitler and the German attack on the USSR. After all, this is a clear "parallelism" with Napoleon.
                      3. Horde
                        Horde 25 July 2012 22: 36 New
                        +1
                        In my opinion, there is nothing to read there.


                        do you want to read? unworthy ?, but this is pride. You might think, for example, that Morozov devoted his entire life to the study of world history and his works on history are a feat for the glory of mankind!
                        Academician Fomenko, one of the top twenty mathematicians in the world, has been dealing with the problems of history for 40 years, and this is certainly not a fashion, as traditions like to say, but serious work supported by calculations and all the power of the mathematical apparatus. Calculations are carried out primarily by chronology and dating of famous historical events, developed dating techniques that no one had ever done before. And combining the new dating into a whole, he really got a NEW PICTURE OF THE WORLD!

                        1. Explain the images of those very incapable of shooting catapults and ballist on ancient scrolls. Take for example Japanese engravings depicting Mongol warships.


                        If you really honestly want to get answers to your questions, then you should go to the forum http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi with your questions - this is the strongest scientific forum on which both historians and mathematicians are represented and all who worry about their country, your questions will not be left unanswered.
                        From myself I can only say that it is necessary to understand the "antiquity" of Japanese engravings. The history is falsified and it is an indisputable fact. Answering the question WHEN, it will become clear why and why it was created.

                        explain the spread of vulgar Latin in the territory of modern. Romania and Moldova under the non-existent Ancient Rome.


                        Latin and many other languages ​​are German, French, and especially well-studied English - art formations. Romanian, as well as the vulgate common in these lands, is the result of the forcible introduction of Latin by local Slavs. It is noteworthy that Latinization did not affect all Romanians, Slavic-speaking indigenous the residents call them, srb.

                        and a few comments about the ancient ruins, which, probably in terms of man-days of manual labor with imperfect tools, give figures casting doubt on the very fact of their existence.


                        The Finn has a book "Secrets of the Colosseum" you can read and be able to answer some questions. Especially impressive are the investigations of the "Constantinople" Colosseum. The book "The Last Day of Pompeii" by Churilov was published, which proves that Pompeii is a medieval, not an ancient city.

                        http://istorya.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=2654&st=40
                        http://chronologia.org/dcforum/DCForumID14/10190.html



                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 26 July 2012 11: 53 New
                        0
                        Quote: Horde
                        Latin and many other languages ​​are German, French, and especially well-studied English - art formations. Romanian, as well as the vulgate common in these lands, is the result of the forcible introduction of Latin by local Slavs. It is noteworthy that Latinization did not affect all Romanians, Slavic-speaking indigenous residents call them, srb


                        I can not agree with you. Latinization has concerned writing, but not language. Both in the 15th and in the 16th century they spoke the same language, but they wrote in Cyrillic (Romano-Cyrillic). And in the 19th century there was a forced translation of the written language into the Latin alphabet.
                      5. Horde
                        Horde 26 July 2012 17: 11 New
                        0
                        Latinization has concerned writing, but not language. Both in the 15th and in the 16th century they spoke the same language, but wrote in Cyrillic (Romano-Cyrillic)


                        how do you imagine that? according to TI Romanians are relatives of Latins, but again TI Romanians are earlier and cultural, so their relatives should have Romanians and their language and culture, and only then the Slavs came and settled around the Romanians, so logically, or maybe some other version of origin Romanians? However, you say that Romanians spoke Latin, and wrote in Slavic. This is what is called the contradiction of traditional history.

                        http://www.srpska.ru/article.php?nid=15286

                        http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10932&forum
                        = DCForumID14 & viewmode = all

                        http://chronologia.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=10133&forum
                        = DCForumID14 & viewmode = all
                      6. Flooding
                        Flooding 27 July 2012 11: 44 New
                        0
                        Horde,

                        for me this question is not abstract, since I live in Moldova.
                        You can call it a contradiction. But all the historical documents that have come down to our time, inscriptions on gravestones, etc. written in cyrillic. But at the same time, the texts themselves leave no doubt that the language was formed under the influence of Latin.

                        Surprisingly, the story is controversial. Like humanity itself, however.

                        I don't trust mathematicians. who take the liberty of judging linguistics, ethnogenesis, architecture and history. I don't think that mathematical analysis is applicable in all spheres of human activity. It is inconsistencies in neochronology that prompt historians from mathematics to "rewrite" more and more pages of history in their own way. Sooner or later, this will lead them to a dead end. Even now, many of their "discoveries" look absurd. Please do not bother yourself with endless links to Fomenko.
                      7. Horde
                        Horde 27 July 2012 15: 39 New
                        0
                        your coin didn’t fit into the frame, and the image is not very clear, nothing is read. Well, it would be nice to comment on what the coin is, whence, from what time, what is depicted and what is written?
                      8. Flooding
                        Flooding 27 July 2012 16: 21 New
                        0
                        This is the seal of Stephen III the Great. With size, really overdone it. Read is unlikely to succeed, especially if not strong in the Cyrillic alphabet.
                        I posted more for myself, since I do not see the need to prove what I wrote earlier. Things are well known.
                        True by virtue of modern. It is not easy for politicians in Romania and Moldova to find the original images of the Cyrillic documents of Moldova or Wallachia on the Internet. All the manuscripts of the pen of prominent figures of Moldavian culture of that time (Grigore Ureke, Miron Kostin, Dimitri Cantemir ... however the latter is not popular among unionists) are laid out in Latin text.
  • Kostya pedestrian
    Kostya pedestrian 26 July 2012 06: 48 New
    0
    It is ridiculous to compare the Tatar-Mongol horde and the Mongolian industry.
    You still compare the victorious Red Army and the colonial troops in Africa.
    Genghis Khan was much closer to the northern Uzbeks and Kazakhstan aksakals; and the conjectures of history, which were formed like mushrooms, under Empress Catherine II, well, her cinema itself exhibits in a very interesting pose.
    So this empress did not like Volzhan, Cossacks and Lithuanians, since these “adversaries” did much harm to the German invaders, and prevented the planting of Protestantism and other advanced dogmas.

    So they wrote all sorts of "history" for the Europeanization of Russia
    1. Horde
      Horde 26 July 2012 07: 47 New
      0
      Genghis Khan was much closer to the northern Uzbeks and Kazakhstan aksakals


      the fact that the Uzbeks and Kazakhs in general other peoples-Turkic-speaking, are very different from the Mongols, does not bother you?
      1. Kostya pedestrian
        Kostya pedestrian 26 July 2012 15: 00 New
        0
        Not at all. All preserved documents and descriptions do not mention any Mongolia. The horde capital was almost in Siberia, a small capital near Volgograd. Clothing and management style closer to the northern provinces of China. The architectural heritage of the Horde is China, Russia, and Central Asia. The Mongols may very well be wonderful and valiant wars, but the foundation of the Tatar-Mongol Iga has nothing to do with it. By the way, without sarcasm, Berebidzhan is much more dear to the Golden Horde than Mongolia.
        1. stroporez
          stroporez 28 July 2012 10: 00 New
          0
          Explain to me, unreasonable, how so. there is a capital, but there are no roads !!!!!! ?????????????????? again, where are the traces of those "untold treasures" that were taken to the horde !!!!!! ???????????. it never happens that there is nothing left !!!!!!!!!
  • Kostya pedestrian
    Kostya pedestrian 26 July 2012 06: 31 New
    0
    Not every war wore metal armor or even a sword sword in the Horde army. Most of the soldiers wore horse-skinned armor.

    And the drawings and descriptions of richer clothes and weapons, as a rule, belong to the noble Tatars of -1000th and higher in rank, and it could not be otherwise, because we received all the information from the annals or descriptions of various envoys of the highest authorities from Europe and corners of Ancient Russia, and they, as a rule, were at the headquarters of the Khan, and communicated with the highest command staff.

    Tatars also had weapons - they had small bows, with a rather small metal tip, reeds (like sticks with a small knife), and slings for launching stones.

    But the more serious heavy weapons of the Horde, just made up the shelves of Rusich.

    Read the brief history of the Battle of Grunwald - the tactics of the Tatars and Russians are very well shown there.
    Therefore, most chronicles show the tartars themselves as nomads, skilled in the siege of cities, or robbers who attacked small towns along the Volga and Don.

    As for the direct military campaigns in Europe and the army’s battles against the army, as a rule, wars are described that are similar to either Lithuanians or Russians, which then was practically the same. And as in the army of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Moscow Tsar, the squad was dressed in chain mail and well armed.
  • Ivan1988
    Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 14 New
    0
    Well, you want too much. To keep these skills to this day from the time of the Horde conquests? Skills die off as unnecessary. Let’s take a close look: are all the men in the Cossack villages on the Don, Kuban and in the Russian-speaking regions of Chechnya able to ride a horse, and even wear a bridle correctly? A chopping sword and wield a dagger? But what is there to use cold, even firearms? My grandfather was able to weave bast shoes and baskets, knit fishing nets. He needed it, he fed this family as well. I do not know how, because I do not need. But my grandfather did not know how to drive a car and use a computer. Although the computer I myself first sat in 1993 at the age of thirty.
  • stroporez
    stroporez 28 July 2012 09: 36 New
    +1
    I am still amazed by the almost complete absence of roads in this "empire"
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 17 New
      0
      And what kind of roads would you like to see in a nomadic empire, where a man even met a small need without getting off his horse? For whom did they have to build them? There is one road in the steppe - from well to well. Horses and camels. moreover, the first non-forged most often, a paved road is not needed. And most importantly, it’s not Europe for you, you’ll get a boot from window to window, it’s mainly Asia. Roads do not tune. From the Egyptian pharaohs, too, there were no roads. but the pyramids. Also an empire?
  • nixar
    nixar April 18 2018 21: 30 New
    0
    only on one thing: he’s ruining everything, any nonsense and this is true
  • smoke
    smoke 20 July 2012 23: 08 New
    +2
    Gentlemen, seek and be sure.
    explanation to world history
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy5I_dRkXfo
    and then -
    it's about the Mongol - G. Sidorov Addition to ,,, The essence of time ,,, Part 5.
    in you tube
    Entogynezis of Europe and Asia,
    Scythians Sarmatians Alans Goths Anta Huns Türks Ugras Rusy,
    The truth about the White Race,
    Why Europeans hate Rusov, etc.
    look for others yourself and draw conclusions
    take your time all in vidio at least listen
    and then talk about these topics
    about religion
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgRZtExwmYc
    this is a Jew talking about Jews
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKLV7-NvJZA
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 July 2012 00: 16 New
      +1
      it's about the Mongol - G. Sidorov Addition to,


      I looked at this Sidorov’s vinigret in my head, it’s absurd speech, it doesn’t give any scientific evidence, in short Blavatsky of our days. If you want to get acquainted with the serious objections of Traditional history, read the works of Morozov, Fomenko, Nosovsky.
  • Magadan
    Magadan 21 July 2012 01: 30 New
    0
    Quote: Sibiryak
    This invasion has become a generally accepted fact since the end of the XNUMXth century, when one of the founders of Russian Orthodoxy, the German Innokentiy Gisel, wrote the first textbook on the history of Russia - Synopsis. "

    What is this insanity? Russian Orthodoxy is founded in late 17th century?
    I mean we had paganism before that, or what?
    And this author, didn’t Alesander of Macedon fight for Hitler?
    Oh yes, I heard that Kulikovo Field was not there, the Battle of the Ice, too, and generally space the first Americans to leave.
    About a hundred years later, humanity suddenly learns that Gagarin was actually a Negro.
    And I didn’t understand something from this entire lengthy article, what exactly SO surprised the author? That a horse can walk 30 km per day? So here, in the region between the villages, ordinary teenagers calmly pass such a distance! Not like horses! If the author is such a dead dude, then let him go in for sports there, since 30 km a day in his sick mind is not only for a person, but for Horse problem!
    No guys, insanity must have its limits
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 July 2012 09: 03 New
      +3
      That a horse can walk 30 km per day?


      the point is not that "a horse cannot pass 30 km", but that during the "invasion of Russia" it is the "average speed" of the horse troops over a huge distance. Batu Khan's troops have passed thousands !!! kilometers from Mongolia to Russia and did not fall from fatigue, but were able to conduct "successful" hostilities.

      Let's look at the manual for the instructors of Osoaviahim "Cavalry Service," the author is I. Salitan. It is clear that the guarantee of the victories of the Red Cavalry was the enthusiasm of the proletarian masses, the Bolshevik leadership and the genius of Comrade. Stalin. However, even from a Soviet horse, due to its bestial class unconsciousness, one cannot demand Stakhanov's exploits. The soldiers and commanders are obliged to carefully care for the cavalry horse, to feed well and to know its physical capabilities.

      The physical capabilities of horses are as follows.

      Horse regiment can move continuously 7-8 hours a day. Then a halt of at least 2,5-4 hours is necessary. After which the movement can be continued for another 4-6 hours. Thus, cavalry is able to go from 40 to 85 km in knocks, a maximum of 100 km. Every 1,5 hours a short halt. After the halt 1 km must be walked in steps.

      Note that this movement of the cavalry detachment without problems feeding horses.

      Normal horse march 50 km or 7-8 hours a day. Forced march 75 km. In any case, horses should rest for at least 8-10 hours in knocking. Every 2-3 days of the trip, the horses need to arrange days, that is, a day of rest. The maximum that can be achieved from the cavalry is two marches of 100 km knocking, but then at least 2 days of rest.

      Please note that we are talking about the physical capabilities of 20th century cavalry horses. A stunted Mongolian horse is better able to live in harsh steppe conditions, but its physical condition and potency are noticeably worse than that of a European cavalry horse.

      Normal traveling speed of the cavalry is 7-8 km / h. You can drive horses at speeds up to 10 km / h, but not longer than 3-4 hours. And this boost is extremely bad for their physical condition.

      On bad roads, in the snow or in the dark, the cavalry moves no more than 4-5 km / h.

      So, the horse is not a tractor - started and went. She is cattle tender, finicky. Almost what’s wrong - she got sick, starved, went hungry or ate something bad — and then she would open all four of her hooves. There is a rich historical practice of the death of cavalry from the death of horses.


      What and how much did the cavalry horse eat in the Russian army. According to the Peter's charter of the army horse, the following allowance was expected (note that in cold weather the horse consumes much more feed):
      “One ration per day.
      Oats 2 garz. Sen 16 pounds.
      2 slices of Garnetz. Straw 1 sheaf. "

      This is quite a lot, and therefore to feed the cavalry on the campaign was not an easy task. The military charter of Peter I of 1716 devoted to the supply of horses with forage 54 chapter.


      And in conclusion, I will give another instructive quote from the article "Infantry on the march." I warn readers in advance that it contains some polemical overlap. Cavalry, on average, has about twice as much mobility than infantry. However, keeping and supplying feed to large masses of cavalry is a more difficult technical task.
      “... It is difficult for a modern person to imagine that a march of cavalry is no different from a march of infantry. Neither the speed of movement, nor the magnitude of the daily transition. And the cavalryman gets tired no less than the infantryman. That's just the cares and troubles he has more than the foot soldiers, because he needs to take care not only about himself and his legs, but also about the horse. He sits on a horse only when the horse is standing, and in movement the cavalryman practically stands in stirrups on bent legs, making the body move up and down to the beat of the horse. So it practically turns out that the horse is walking on the ground, and the cavalryman is walking in the air. And every 2-3 kilometers of movement, the horseman gets off the horse and leads him about 2-3 kilometers, giving the latter rest.

      Being familiar with the cavalry from numerous films, we somehow think that the horse is like a living motorcycle. In The Three Musketeers, d'Artagnan hurries to London for the queen's pendants, galloping his horse day and night. In fact, at a gallop, and in other fast gaits, a horse can withstand 2-4 kilometers, then it fizzles out, falls and often simply dies. "I drove the horse" - you can sometimes find such words in old books.

      "And what is this cavalry for then?" - you ask. The cavalry is a mobile arm of troops, which allows you to deliver quickly flanking strikes, pursue and disperse a running enemy, quickly deliver reports and transmit orders within the same 2-4 kilometers, and carry out patrol service. Those. it is superior in mobility to infantry at short distances, on the battlefield. But in crossings over long distances, the cavalry does not surpass the infantry.

      From the author. And here is what I still learned from the old real cavalrymen - the rider on the horse can hardly catch up with the horse-drawn cart, as we often see in films. And if the cart is parokononny (which usually happens), then never at all. Do not believe? Take a heavy backpack, 30 kilograms that way, pile it on yourself and try to compete with a comrade who pulls the same load, but on a cart. I have no doubt that he will leave you far behind. ”


      As you can see, the history of the grand nomadic empires was composed by people very far from the technique of cavalry and the problems of driving large masses of cavalry. Humanities, it never occurred to them to think about the nonsense question of what and how the horse eats, how much it can run and so on. Their ideas are simple: the mighty nomad jumped on his four-legged friend and, like the wind, rode off the roads to conquer the ancient and medieval world.
      1. Ivan1988
        Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 26 New
        0
        What confused you? The lack of rest near the Horde cavalry? So at night, I suppose, they stopped to rest. Those. the very 8 hours required to restore the horse’s strength are obtained. And 30 km per day is just far less than the standard march for the equestrian part of the spacecraft of 50 km. An example with a backpack is past the cash register, because any lightest cart is heavier than the weight of two riders, if it is not a Japanese sumoist. And most importantly - after the conquest of Russia, the Horde cavalry in 1241 was near Lignitz, where it defeated the army of Henry the Pious.
        if we discard versions of the Horde landing or delivering them to the battlefield with passenger planes - how else could the Horde get under Lignitz. other than crossing the Russian lands? As an option, through the Wild Field, but it’s difficult to assume that they moved at a speed like Athanasius Nikitin, huh?
    2. Dimitr
      Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Magadan
      About a hundred years later, humanity suddenly learns that Gagarin was actually a Negro.
      And I didn’t understand something from this entire lengthy article, what exactly SO surprised the author? That a horse can walk 30 km per day? So here, in the region between the villages, ordinary teenagers calmly pass such a distance! Not like horses!

      You are a little confused between the teenager following "Sam" and the war horse following the military unit! Sorry, but this is not the same thing! Study, as they say, the mathematical part!
    3. stroporez
      stroporez 28 July 2012 10: 06 New
      0
      I have been with my grandmother in the village since childhood for horses. 30 km a day, the horse will pass, of course, but not on "grass from under the snow"))))))))) although, of course, what kind of grass depends))))) ))) and certainly a centner, or even more, will not carry into battle
    4. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 21: 56 New
      0
      should primarily addressed to you. Do you have numerous artifacts from the kulikovo field in the zashashnik? the exact facts that hundreds of western knights broke the miracle of the lake ice and drowned in the 1240th? horses (ponies) in the winter at the pasture passed hundreds of kilometers a month, carrying soldiers with equipment + 2-3 spare horses? I wish you to try living in Russia in the winter in Russia in the winter
  • Bazilevs
    Bazilevs 21 July 2012 02: 40 New
    -1
    Greetings, dear colleagues, it’s clear that there was no Mongol Tatar yoke, nonsense is all to humiliate our great people, to make us feel inferior, here we are behind Europe, we have thrown the Tatar yoke hundreds of years ago from advanced Europe ... Yes, you just need to think, correctly the author writes it's time to already tell the truth to the people ...
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Magadan
    Magadan 21 July 2012 03: 06 New
    +1
    "Iga" as such may not have been, but the author came from the wrong side and bears all sorts of crap. We fought with the Mongol-Tatars in any way. Then everyone was at war with each other. The question is, who did more evil to the Russians - the Tatars or the Russians themselves, with their princely strife?
    The author, however, carries nonsense in a different sense - he didn’t have Kozelsk either, and the Tatar horse couldn’t walk 30 km a day (when people walk along the Kolyma highway from one village to another for 30-40 km!) And generally we are all from Mars, and Napoleon - that’s what Grandfather Pushkin was called.
    "Research" is even worse than the Suvorov "icebreaker" and other marasmus
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • Hamul
    Hamul 21 July 2012 07: 25 New
    +1
    Hello!
    Quote: Magadan
    We fought with the Mongol Tatars in any way.
    Yes, maybe they fought, and maybe not. The fact is that it’s right to speak not even the Tatar-Mongols, but the Tatar-Mogolols
    Quote: Magadan
    The author is talking nonsense in another sense - he and Kozelsk
    Unfortunately, there are real historical finds. Today it is very difficult to say anything without archaeological finds. In Kozelsk, they are not yet.
    Quote: Magadan
    the Tatar horse could not walk 30 km a day (when we walk along the Kolyma highway people from one village to another visit 30-40 km!)
    This is not worth talking about at all. The fact is that the Tatars were not at all adapted to winters. And the horses were walking in the snow - and there were a lot of them, they often wounded their hooves - they did not know the horseshoes.
    Secondly. About the moment of food for people and horses - I asked all historians and museum workers in the Stavropol Territory - not one could give a clear answer. Calculate how much feed and people need for horses.
    Another aspect. Have you ever seen something happening to the land - where will at least 200 horses go? There is simply no steppe - the grass does not grow for about a year - for which the roads were invented.
    Well, the extreme point - there is no real evidence. Written sources destroyed by the Orthodox Church. What can we say about the Tatar yoke - when there is still talk about the calling of the Ruriks? Until now, the theory is normanistic, not Slavophile !!
    Where are the works of Lomonosov ?, Gedeonov? and other prominent historians of the time - they are not in the textbooks, but because the government is not profitable. It is advantageous to humiliate the totality of peoples called Russia!

    Quote: Magadan
    What is this insanity? Is Russian Orthodoxy founded at the end of the 17th century? I mean we had paganism before that, or what?
    The truth is that apart from the Ipatiev and Lavrentiev and Radzivilov annals there are practically no sources.
    Sorry, but what a relic of bathing, water, mermaids and brownies etc. Doesn't it surprise you? Shrovetide, too, no matter how like a purely pagan holiday, as by the way, and Easter. (what are they wearing at the cemetery for Easter? - eggs and eggs are a symbol of what? of the sun and rebirth). In Russia, this did not go away at all, although it is strange - after all, Orthodoxy has been with us like 9 centuries)))))))) officially. (from the authors of the 18th to the 19th century - remember Pushkin, Gogol)

    Quote: darkman70
    With whom, then, Evpatiy Kolovrat fought
    Was there a boy?
    1. TAGIR
      TAGIR 21 July 2012 10: 46 New
      0
      Read Tatishchev V.N. "Russian history" part 1 chapter 18. All the same, it is useful to first study the subject and then be clever. Mughals, Mongols, braziers ...
    2. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 38 New
      0
      Sorry, but there are archaeological finds in Kozelsk. And the location of the Kremlin (in the sense of a fortress) was established, and the remains of the defenders of the times of approximately the death of Kozelsk were found. But there was, of course, no seven-week assault, in the sense of continuous fighting. IMHO, near Kozelsk the Horde lingered, that's why. Look at the time, and it turns out that the Horde approached Kozelsk at the very beginning of the spring thaw. And then, when the intensive melting of snow and spills began, what is the departure to the steppe? Must wait. When the city was taken - in the first or last week of a seven-week “standing” - I don’t know, the annals do not say anything and archaeological research methods are not yet such as to determine the time of death of the defenders up to a day. But rather, still somewhere in the latter. Here are just a chronicle version with the destruction of the city at the direction of Batu with some special hardcore - I do not support it. Probably burned. like other cities taken, and nothing more. By the way, Dedoslavl, whom the author considers surviving, was actually taken and burned in the winter of 1237. To see, "Nestor the chronicler himself was not a great scientist."
      1. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 22: 12 New
        0
        Kozelsk, of course, was and that’s all. who, when, why (and whether it was) burned it (at that time wooden cities very often burned without any Tatars) conquered it, plundered it and burned it? the same Kolovrat is nothing more than a legend of consolation: yes, in 2 months Russia "fell" under the Tatars, but there were heroes ...
  • darkman70
    darkman70 21 July 2012 10: 35 New
    -1
    The fact is that the Tatars were not adapted at all to winters

    Actually, in Mongolia, winter is much colder and harsh than in central Russia .. Didn’t know?
    Was there a boy?

    Yes, of course not. All Russian heroes from Peresvet and Kolovrat to Alexander Matrosov were invented by the Russian Orthodox Church and the Soviet government to falsify history. They had such a hobby. Yes, and the Russian people are not really there. All this is fiction.
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 July 2012 10: 43 New
      0
      Actually, in Mongolia, winter is much colder and harsh than in central Russia.


      winter is harsh, only practically snowless, therefore Mongolian cattle feed on dry grass effortlessly, in Russia there is a different picture, winters are always snowy and not just snowy, and sediments, snowdrifts therefore we do not eat herbivores digging food out from under the snow. Horses are not reindeer, and reindeer moss in Russia does not grow under snow.
      1. Dimitr
        Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 47 New
        0
        Quote: Horde
        winter is harsh, only practically snowless, therefore Mongolian cattle feed on dry grass effortlessly, in Russia there is a different picture, winters are always snowy and not just snowy, and sediments, snowdrifts therefore we do not eat herbivores digging food out from under the snow. Horses are not reindeer, and reindeer moss in Russia does not grow under snow.

        Sorry, I didn’t immediately see your comment, otherwise I wouldn’t shake the air again!
    2. Dimitr
      Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 45 New
      +1
      Quote: darkman70
      Actually, in Mongolia, winter is much colder and harsh than in central Russia .. Didn’t know?

      Regarding the severity, everything is correct, but I think that the author did not mean just winter, like the evil Morozko. Short-legged Mongolian, unpretentious horses must sink in Central Russian snows!
      1. Horde
        Horde 22 July 2012 12: 56 New
        +1
        unpretentious horses must drown in Central Russian snows!


        so, too true!
    3. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 22: 16 New
      0
      to the point, with the exception of the sailor, this is really a historical figure, but already his feat is not the subject of discussion, everything is known from the documents. Do you like the modern interpretation of history: Stalin is the great leader, Yeltsin is a democrat, Putin is our everything?
  • darkman70
    darkman70 21 July 2012 10: 46 New
    -2
    Horde,
    There remains only one small question ... But what did the horses of the Russians themselves eat in winter?
    1. Horde
      Horde 21 July 2012 10: 55 New
      +1
      you probably do not read a forum? here I posted above, but I repeat

      What and how much did the cavalry horse eat in the Russian army. According to the Peter's charter of the army horse, the following allowance was expected (note that in cold weather the horse consumes much more feed):
      “One ration per day.
      Oats 2 garz. Sen 16 pounds.
      2 slices of Garnetz. Straw 1 sheaf. "

      This is quite a lot, and therefore to feed the cavalry on the campaign was not an easy task. The military charter of Peter I of 1716 devoted to the supply of horses with forage 54 chapter.
      1. darkman70
        darkman70 21 July 2012 11: 36 New
        -2
        I’m hinting to you, but you don’t understand ....
        Then I'll ask you straight ...
        And what prevented the Mongol-Tatars from doing the same as the Russians did?
        And further. Wehrmacht army invading the USSR Xnumx thousand horses(much more than the Mongol-Tatars), and as you know, the German army reached Moscow and the Caucasus and fought there, including in the winter. What has changed in the feeding of horses from the time of Batu to 1941 year ???? Did horses change their diet during this time? Nothing has changed .. What are we discussing here then?
        1. Horde
          Horde 21 July 2012 13: 01 New
          0
          And what prevented the Mongol-Tatars from doing the same as the Russians did?


          in order to be a Russian army it is necessary to have such a state as Russia in which you sow and plow and mow hay stocking up for the winter and in case of any war, and the oats are harvested by the horse-drawn army suitable for food. First you need to feed the horse, and then Army equestrian labor is not easy, but the army can always, in any day, find itself in a place where there is no pasture for horses, and for this you need a convoy with food-stuffs, and traditions when they invented Tataromongol igoyo by oversight or how forgot to attribute therefore, they now have a pale appearance in the Mongolian army.
          1. darkman70
            darkman70 21 July 2012 13: 32 New
            -1
            to be a Russian army

            Reception here is this ??? It's about horses. Or do you think that the Mongols were completely morons and were not able to find out how and how to feed horses before going on a trip to Russia ???
            Less need to read an alternative story.!
            1. Horde
              Horde 21 July 2012 16: 44 New
              +1
              Or do you think that the Mongols are all stupid people


              There are no Mongols, I don’t consider morons, other assessments are suitable for them - this is a patriarchal, rather primitive society without any ambitions, they don’t sow or plow, but only graze cattle on their territory, live in their own world and do not impose their way of life on anyone, because, that they have neither the capabilities nor the proper worldview for these purposes. These people are not aspiring to the future they are good on their land. There is a saying, "where you do not know how, there you should not want anything", that's all about They could not organize military actions on a planetary scale, they lack the fortitude of this people, as Gumilev says - "the vector of passionarity" is not directed towards progress, towards development. In short, the Mongols have only one thing and neither.
              1. Ivan1988
                Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 47 New
                0
                You are in vain comparing the modern Mongols and steppes of that time. If they were capable of such large-scale conquests, apparently. they had some other ambitions. Everything you wrote about feeding horses. undeniably true. But besides horses, in the villages now and in those days, they kept other cattle, except horses. who also happily hayed hay and other food - sheep, goats. cows. These stocks - for cattle - taken as trophies, were not able to solve the food problem of the Horde cavalry, what do you think? If we take into account the time of the invasion - the dead of winter, when the message was interrupted altogether, there were no radio and mobile phones, the appearance of "filthy" hollow surprise and did not have time to either run away or burn the property - what is unreal? In my opinion, it’s a working version. And winter as a time of year is understandable for war. The messengers will not jump, warning of danger, the people will not go into the forests, winter stocks in villages and cities - all of them are like on a platter. And for the movement there are rivers covered with ice.
            2. Dimitr
              Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 55 New
              +1
              Quote: darkman70
              Less need to read an alternative story.!

              Read less and think more! You obviously didn’t mow down senzo! And an alternative story has the right to live, because and the classic one has a lot of spots!
        2. Dimitr
          Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 53 New
          +1
          My friend, I don’t remember the Wehrmacht going into dashing cavalry attacks! Do not compare w..y with a finger! It has changed that these horses stomped behind the offensive armored vehicles, and had a purely economic, and not military purpose!
          1. darkman70
            darkman70 22 July 2012 02: 38 New
            -2
            I do not remember that the Wehrmacht went on a dashing cavalry attack!

            How old are you, grandfather? wassat Himself is not funny?
            The fact that you don’t remember something is an argument only for fans of an alternative story. Therefore, I will advise you: do not read any nonsense, especially alternative. This has a very bad effect on logical thinking.
            Cavalry cavalry regiment CC "Death's Head" in the attack
            1. Horde
              Horde 22 July 2012 11: 43 New
              0
              Cavalry cavalry regiment CC "Death's Head" in the attack


              Well, if the Poles in the Polish company, Tada yes, the Poles also fought with sabers and tanks.
              1. Sanches
                Sanches 22 July 2012 15: 54 New
                0
                By the way, yes, there was one such battle - the Poles were told that Soviet tanks were made of cardboard
              2. darkman70
                darkman70 22 July 2012 18: 27 New
                -2
                What does the Polish company have to do with it?
                I see the fans of Fomenko-Nosovsky as sectarians. Just manic obstinacy with zero knowledge. They don't put anything in your food there? Is it really impossible to read at least one more book besides Fomenko? Why is there a book ... is it really difficult at least in a search engine to type "cavalry formations of the Wehrmacht and SS" before writing another nonsense ???
                No words just ..
      2. Flooding
        Flooding 21 July 2012 14: 09 New
        +1
        From Giovanni del Plano Carpini:
        "From here, by the advancing mercy of God and having got rid of the enemies of the cross of Christ, we arrived in Kiev, which serves as the capital of Russia; having arrived there, we had a conference about our journey with the thousand-man and other noble persons who were there. They answered us that if we will lead those horses that we had to Tataria, then they can all die, since there was deep snow, and they did not know how to get grass under the snow with their hooves, like the Tatars' horses, and you cannot find anything else for them to eat, because that the Tatars have no straw, no hay, no forage. "
        1. Horde
          Horde 21 July 2012 17: 39 New
          +1
          ex horses that we had, then they all can die, because there was deep snow, and they could not get grass with their hooves in the snow, like the Tatars horses,


          the fact that even wild horses can get food from under the snow is complete nonsense, another myth invented by the tradiks. Wild horses just don’t live in places where snow is pastured in winter. And as for domestic horses, their man feeds in winter and does not send to graze for example, in Kazakhstan, due to constant storms, there is no large accumulation of snow, therefore it is easier for cattle to get to last year’s grass, in Mongolia there is even less snow, and in Russia there is less snow than in Antarctica.
          1. Horde
            Horde 21 July 2012 19: 16 New
            0
            arguments ended carpet backing track started? quickly .
          2. Dimitr
            Dimitr 21 July 2012 22: 59 New
            0
            Quote: Horde
            the fact that even wild horses can get food from under the snow is complete nonsense, another myth invented by the tradiks. Wild horses just don’t live in places where snow is pastured in winter. And as for domestic horses, their man feeds in winter and does not send to graze for example, in Kazakhstan, due to constant storms, there is no large accumulation of snow, therefore it is easier for cattle to get to last year’s grass, in Mongolia there is even less snow, and in Russia there is less snow than in Antarctica.

            I don’t know what they were doing for, the comment is correct, buy a horse and let it feed. In a couple of days you’ll make a barbecue out of it.
          3. Flooding
            Flooding 22 July 2012 17: 14 New
            0
            Quote: Horde
            the fact that even wild horses can get food from under the snow is complete nonsense, another myth invented by the tradits


            Horde,
            familiarize yourself with the matter in depth before making such categorical messages.

            Przhevalsky's horse on tebenevka (obtaining food from under the snow).
            The scene is Belarus. February is the month.

            1. Horde
              Horde 22 July 2012 18: 04 New
              0
              familiarize yourself with the matter in depth before making such categorical messages.

              -firstly, Przhevalsky’s horse has never been found in Belarus, the habitat is again Mongolia.
              - secondly, in Belarus forests, not the steppes habitual for these animals, how the hell lives there, it’s just an experiment. There isn’t such a quantity of grass and forbs in the forests.
              -thirdly, they feed these stables in the winters, as well as the bison, if it weren’t for the man to throw their horses these hooves and be right, because you can’t argue against nature.
              1. Flooding
                Flooding 22 July 2012 19: 13 New
                -3
                Horde,
                chatting with you is becoming less interesting.
                Quote: Horde
                the fact that even wild horses can get food from under the snow is complete nonsense, another myth invented by the tradits.

                I have denied your words. But you forgetting what you wrote earlier began to carry on.
                Quote: Horde
                firstly, Przhevalsky’s horse has never been found in Belarus, the habitat is again Mongolia

                naturally, but this very horse feels great in Belarus. Which again contradicts your words:
                Quote: Horde
                . Wild horses just do not live in places where snow is pastured in winter.

                Well, not in the know of the belly.
                Quote: Horde
                - secondly, in Belarus forests, not the steppes habitual for these animals, how the hell lives there, it’s just an experiment. There isn’t such a quantity of grass and forbs in the forests.
                -thirdly, they feed these stables in the winters, as well as the bison, if it weren’t for the man to throw their horses these hooves and be right, because you can’t argue against nature.

                Everything from the ceiling again. A concrete example from one of the Belarusian farms. Ask yourself. Horses are not fed, they do not need it. By the way, they came to Belarus from Ukraine. In Ukraine, their livestock increased dramatically before poachers began to shoot them. Moreover, it was in the Chernobyl zone. Of course, they went after them in chemical protection suits and fed them "like moose."
                Horde, be sensible. Don't insist on what you "swim" in.
                1. Horde
                  Horde 22 July 2012 20: 51 New
                  +2
                  chatting with you is becoming less interesting.


                  I don’t like to talk here boh, but here is the threshold, no one is holding you on the forum by force.

                  but this same horse feels great in Belarus.


                  yes, a horse in Belarus does not feel great, to reason, only a narrow-minded person can not see it longer than the address line in net. The natural conditions in Belarus are wooded, the horse is an animal for the steppes is an axiom. Horses live in those places that are cleaned as a result of human activity from forests, there will be more forests and forests will become thicker and the "wonderful existence" of horses in Belarus will end, because forest Belarusian wolves cope with elk, and horses to wolves are legal and easy prey. As for the snow cover in Belarus, then I can say I can’t have been to Belarus, but I think that the height of the snow cover in Belarus is less than in the central regions of Russia.
                  At TI, Batu’s troops marched across Russia, in the winter through forests, this cannot be.

                  Horde, be sensible. Don't insist on what you "swim" in.


                  keep your exhortations with you; you have given a not correct and not typical example.
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 23 July 2012 10: 57 New
                    0
                    Horde,

                    far away you are mine and incomprehensible. Is the gut thin to admit it's wrong? We know those. Does it make sense to continue the conversation? Hardly.
                    If a person claims that a wild horse cannot feed in the winter with high snow cover, they poke his nose in the fact, confirming the opposite, then ...
                    The clever admits his mistake (we all tend to make mistakes), the arrogant will jump from the fifth to the tenth, talk about uncharacteristic and impossibility.
                    1. Horde
                      Horde 23 July 2012 17: 52 New
                      0
                      a wild horse cannot feed in the winter with high snow cover,

                      well, put in a position to either die or dig snow for feeding, Przhevalsky’s horse pulled from his native places and abandoned Belarus far from Mongolia certainly will not be envied, admittedly, he is digging, but the experiment is only just beginning.
                      Only over disputes about horses, we forgot disputes about the Tatar-Mongol army of TMA numbering 150-200 thousand soldiers and probably 500 thousand horses invading the Asian steppes in Russia, and even in winter. In the article, I didn’t find and the author correctly speaks of the implausible-fast promotion of TMA in the conditions of the Russian winter, it’s hard to imagine half a million horses grazing after a 30 km march loaded with 1500 tons of war iron in snowy Russian forests, a day to travel around Russia, a night to feed, by the way, thousands of kilometers of travel across the steppes from Mongolia v. Kartina is seen like this in the evening in winter in Russia for 17 hours TMA stops soldiers squatting their horses two, three and ... let the horses go to graze, where do you think these horses will be in the morning? right a few kilometers from the warrior camp, then in deep snow the soldiers must gather their horses, bridle, equip and continue to conquer Ryazan, Kozelsk, Yaroslavl, Vladimir and so on throughout the 6 months of the Russian winter? No one tried to exploit a small Mongolian horse like this hard labor, that's for sure. The question is whether the horse will be able to regain strength and move on and also fight, i.e. rush at speed in the snow with a Mongol warrior 70kg and iron 40kg does not seem to be true. A picture worthy of the great fiction writer Ian.
                      1. Flooding
                        Flooding 24 July 2012 11: 16 New
                        0
                        1.
                        Quote: Horde
                        the fact that even wild horses can get food from under the snow is complete nonsense, another myth invented by the tradits

                        2.
                        Quote: Horde
                        well, put in a position to either die, or dig snow for feeding, Przhevalsky’s horse pulled from his native places and abandoned Belarus far from Mongolia, of course you will not envy, admittedly, he’s digging


                        Progress is evident. But something is too slow. You are moving in the right direction. And therefore, I consider the time I spent on disputes unjustified. Engage in self-education.
                      2. Horde
                        Horde 24 July 2012 18: 38 New
                        0
                        Progress is evident. But something is too slow


                        You won the battle, but what about the battle? There are still questions and without answers to them, the hypothesis about TMI becomes as lightweight as matins fog, because it is clear to all sane people that a half-starved horse put by traders in unthinkably difficult working conditions, forced to work for wear and tear The people no longer even doubt, but simply frankly do not believe in the Mongolian go. In one of my posts I told about the daily ration of a war horse, the ration is not small, take an interest. Traditions all rest on the "unpretentiousness" of Mongol horses, but everything has a limit.
                    2. Ivan1988
                      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 13: 55 New
                      0
                      Firstly, most horses performed exclusively transport function. Secondly, see for yourself at least the official story that you want: actually the field battles in which the cavalry participated, during the winter of 1237 - the spring of 1238 was practically nonexistent. During the siege of the cities, the soldiers dismounted, do not you assume that they climbed the stairs right in the saddle? Before that, even Fomenko did not think of it. And horses do not participate at all in all this. They are resting. You blame your opponents. they don’t want to think. OK, but let's think together.
      3. Sanches
        Sanches 22 July 2012 16: 38 New
        -1
        Flooding Yesterday, 14: 09
        From Giovanni del Plano Carpini: ...

        Mr. Giovanni da Pian del Carpina had to cross many countries to reach the headquarters of the Mongols on the Orkhon River (oddly enough in Mongolia). Mr. da Pian called the Mongols Mongals (almost braziers), and all other non-Europeans - Tatars, but then he could not resist and began to call the Mongols Tatars too (for convenience, apparently). None of his mega-serious scientific work (such as "History of the Mongals, which we call Tatars" and "The Book of Tatars") does not prove the existence of a single Mongol, or Mongol, or Mangal, or in general - purely Tatar - empire. In general, as I understand it, Mr. da Pian called everyone who came to his hand as Tatars, perhaps even this is his personal expletive, which sounded like "Tartars from Tartarus" in the original and coincidentally coincided with the name of a real nation
        1. Flooding
          Flooding 22 July 2012 18: 01 New
          0
          Sanches,

          Did you even read my post? I talked about the statehood or ethnogenesis of the Mongols based on the works of the aforementioned gentleman?

          Talk about horses, dear. And already this Italian was versed in better artiodactyls than you and me.

          What is very interesting is that you missed a very important fact, somehow you had a leak between your fingers.
          It seemed strange to you that he reached the headquarters of the Mongols in Mongolia itself. Say, why go so far when the Mongols are out at hand.
          But he was on his way to see the Great Khan. But I see something else interesting. If there were no Mongols in Russia, then for what pretzels did he go there? Not to China, not to India, but to the "wild Mongols" (as some here see it). Moreover, he received reliable information about them and prepared for a long journey to Kiev! How did the Kievites of that time, who did not know either the Internet or television, know about the distant unknown land ???
          1. Sanches
            Sanches 23 July 2012 07: 29 New
            0
            ok, I'm sorry if you hurt your Mongol feelings. Yes, your ancestors ruled half the world and were the greatest warriors, and your horses could get food from under the snow even in a snowstorm despite the fact that no one had ever stocked hay wassat
            1. Sanches
              Sanches 23 July 2012 08: 02 New
              0
              Do you know why nomads were called nomads? because they wandered from one pasture to another depending on the time of the year: in the summer - to the north (dzhailau), in winter - to the south and southeast (kystau). In spring and autumn, they also looked for more favorable areas for the time of year - Kokteu and Kuseu. It has never occurred to a single nomad (except your noble ancestors) to move north in winter, especially a military campaign, especially to the RUSSIAN north
            2. Flooding
              Flooding 23 July 2012 11: 25 New
              0
              Sanches,

              I do not advise you to get personal. Since my vocabulary can greatly "please" you. Let's better on the topic, since we took up Carpini.

              Quote: Sanches
              Mr. da Pian called the Mongols Mongols (almost braziers), and all other non-Europeans - Tatars, but then could not resist and began to call the Tatars Mongols, too (for convenience, apparently). None of his mega-serious scientific work (such as “The History of the Mongols, which we call the Tatars” and “The Book of the Tatars”) proves the existence of a single Mongolian, or Mongolian, or mangal, or even purely Tatar empire.


              One Karpini did not participate in an ethnographic expedition. He led a diplomatic mission on the assignment, who would you think, of the pope himself. These are the facts. Let's get it right.
              The Italian, in my opinion, is completely forgiven by the fact that he called the Tatars, the Mongol, and others like them. Precisely because he was not an ethnographer, and his task was not to collect folk songs and legends, but to establish contact with def. persons.
              What prompted him to this feat? Otherwise, I can’t call such a journey. Suppose the data are reliable and the mission was to establish contact with the Mongols. But if these were seedy, obscure semi-wild tribes, then such an assumption loses its meaning. Obviously, the goal of such an unprecedented journey could be to establish relations with a powerful state.
              Given the hostile attitude of the Catholic world towards Orthodox Russia, it is clear that Karpini could have the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone - to ensure peaceful coexistence and agree on a possible division of influence.
              Suppose all this is a myth. Although so far no one has claimed the authenticity of the manuscripts and their authenticity. Suppose that already in the distant XIII century, a plan was conceived to rewrite history. Well, in this case, we must pay tribute to the Russophobia, it is simply brilliant.
              But who then made this journey? The description of which leaves no doubt that it took place. And for what purpose?
  • nixar
    nixar April 18 2018 22: 18 New
    0
    Have you ever been in a village? as usual, in the autumn the horses fly south, in the spring they return
  • TAGIR
    TAGIR 21 July 2012 10: 49 New
    0
    [media = http: //www.bibliotekar.ru/rusTatishcev/19.htm]
  • Merl13
    Merl13 21 July 2012 11: 29 New
    +4
    It's just that the majority are used to believing what we were taught in school, what was written in the textbooks. There was a yoke and that's it. One can seemingly understand especially zealous historians: How so, we have devoted our whole life, scientific works, dissertations to the study of history (some of them have never been in the places of supposed historical events), but here there are some upstarts not related to history as a science - mathematicians, physicists, astronomers, etc. (Fomenko, Morozov, Nosovsky) turn everything upside down? What is it, we ate our bread in vain? Yes "to count them", ban, remove, ridicule.
    The problem is that history (and not only ours) is not just words on paper that are unconditional, but it is also meaningfulness, double-checking, studying, criticizing, if you like, scrupulous analysis of all facts, events, documents using a variety of methods yes Yes, including those that seem to have no direct relation to history - mathematics, astronomy, biology, physics, geology, etc. and together giving such results, I would even say stunning, after which adequate scholars nervously smoke aside, and then with double interest go to work, well, and inadequate with foam at the mouth they try to blame heresy, obscurantism and a pseudo-scientific approach.
    A simple example is the above published article. Simple arithmetic calculations break down all dogmas. Forcing If you do not believe it, then think about it.
    Almost all scientific works on this period are foreign, they come up (well, quite by accident) at the same time in different places and countries.
    It seems that people who wrote them in Russia (in Russia) have never been or know by hearsay.
    Yes, in Russia, the water in the rivers freezes in the winter (sometimes in the fall) and you can move around on it like dry land. Yes it is possible, but it is also necessary to dress not in summer.
    We probably all were born on the moon. None of us ever went out on ice in winter. We do not know what is the difference between ice on a river and a lake. So that the ice stood on the river and it was possible not only to the pedestrian, but also to the rider to move without fear, frosts should stand at -25 degrees and more than one day. Further more, the ice is not the same everywhere, ravines, wormwoods (the river is nevertheless a stream). Now imagine that not 10, not 100, and not even 1000, but 100000 horsemen are moving along the channel, which will come from such a mass and quantity with ice and the riders themselves. Draw your own conclusions.
    A description of the structure of the units of the Tatar-Mongol troops? There is no analogy, foremen, centurions. Light cavalry, reconnaissance, rapid raids (strikes) waste and again attack. For me it’s very similar to the Cossacks. Yes, we ourselves know that not only Slavs served in the Cossack ranks, but also Tatars, Bashkirs, and representatives of Caucasian nationalities.
    Why in the west, us, all immigrants from the USSR are called Russians (Russians, Ossetians, Kazakhs, Tatars, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Dagestan, Armenians, etc.)? Why is such a persistent hostility to the Russians in general, and it arose not in the 20th century, but lies much earlier? Not to the Ottomans, Germans, Romans, Moors, but to us?
    Again, someone really paid attention to the fact that All nationalities (I don’t know the exceptions) are represented as a noun (question: who?) Englishman (Celt, Scot, Irish), Swede, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Pole , Hungary, Fin and. etc.
    and only Russian (what?) an adjective.
    Although other peoples have no no yes and slips "Hey Rus"
    or from the east "URus". And now a question about genetic memory: Tell me I'm Russian or I'm Rus, don't you notice any difference? Well this is, by the way.

    As you can see, there are a lot of questions that neither teachers at school, nor history books and orthodox historians can give answers to, unlike the authors of this article and similar ones. Which seems to be cautiously called the authors of an alternative story (well, almost science fiction). But really, is their version alternative and fantastic. Rather, fiction can be called traditional.

    Maybe clumsily outlined, but tried.
    1. mislavl
      mislavl 21 July 2012 23: 41 New
      -3
      not that word, clumsy! You imitating physicists, mathematicians, and other things fell into the same heresy as they ... This applies to everything that you say in your commentary and almost the entire article of the author. Mathematicians sit and comprehend how much a wild horse can go, or how she gets food from under the snow. What the army will look like, People argue. who did not see the horse, not only wild, but also a domestic horse. They argue from their sofas how much a person of the 12th century can pass and sustain, ridiculous! But the people of the 17-19th centuries, historians who did not get off their horses and wagons, they don’t know what? That they lived in the last century, what can they know?
      Although there is an opinion that the large is seen at a distance, it is difficult to see anything at too great a distance! Always and in everything you need to get used to the environment under study, not to ignore the works of thousands of people who think and write before you, but to study them ... and think, think not about the sensation and PR of your dear beloved, but about the history of your country !!
      1. Horde
        Horde 22 July 2012 01: 41 New
        +1
        But the people of the 17-19th centuries, historians who did not get off their horses and wagons, they don’t know what? That they lived in the last century, what can they know?


        probably, these overseas bar didn’t really understand how and what the horse-drawn transport lives on, which the Russian lackeys deign to carry.

        -And tell me the Proshshka truck for how much will you add me from Moscow to Kasani?
        - Well, you give the master eight hundred versts with a gag, I think we’ll leave the third day, then in the morning a week later we will be there.
        -And if in a hurry, smoshe faster?
        - We’ll have time for Monday gentlemen for two hundred rubles.

        a very real situation, say, in the middle of the 18th century. Miller thought, "if a peasant is a redneck for a hundred miles across Russia, then for the conceived Tatars-conquerors, horse-drawn ones, it is no less necessary to believe" But only the German academician miscalculated, apparently he was seasick on Russian roads ...
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 22: 29 New
      0
      however, in all rights. Yes, only believe in the usual dogmas, it does not matter that there is no evidence, more familiar, more comfortable, and the tendency to doubt and analyze is atrophied (knocked out?)
  • serge
    serge 21 July 2012 15: 40 New
    +1
    There is much speculation that the Mongols (= Tatars) with their horses had nothing to eat in winter. So in the troops of the Tatars there were almost no Mongols. Almost none of them came from Mongolia. Most of the warriors' armies were made up by the present Asians, whose winter is also not without severe frosts, they are familiar to them. Why did Napoleon’s millionth invasion of Russia stock up on food to Moscow, eight million Germans stocked up food in 1941, including for horses, and a couple of hundreds of thousands of Tatars could not stock up on supplies and take them with them?
    Yes, and in what annals is written that the Tatars did not have convoys?
    1. Dimitr
      Dimitr 21 July 2012 23: 03 New
      0
      Quote: serge
      Why did Napoleon’s millionth invasion of Russia stock up on food to Moscow, eight million Germans stocked up food in 1941, including for horses, and a couple of hundreds of thousands of Tatars could not stock up on supplies and take them with them?
      Yes, and in what annals is written that the Tatars did not have convoys?

      If you remember, then Napoleon was burnt out due to the lack of food and the necessary weapons (ammunition). I think that the horde was burnt!
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 22: 34 New
      0
      completely wrong, those conquerors mainly used local resources, which later caused numerous insoluble problems, however, the Germans were not too dependent on forage for horses. with such arguments, even in kindergarten you will not find a complete understanding. maybe you should not torture Claudia in vain?
  • cheburo
    cheburo 21 July 2012 17: 20 New
    +1
    There are fairly well-known studies on this topic, here you can see http://video.mail.ru/mail/cheburo/_myvideo
    There was no horde in the form in which traditionalists from history try to present it.
  • Hamul
    Hamul 21 July 2012 19: 42 New
    0
    Quote: Muggins
    If there was a horde, then there would be violence, in Russian epics and tales they wrote about it! But just about this silence!

    That's it. there is no memory of this among the people - and this is strange !!!
    Being engaged in military-historical reconstruction (the direction is the possible presence of Slavic troops in the Caucasus from the 9th to 11th centuries), we were faced with the fact that there are massive forgeries in museums. They give out what they wish for reality - when you come to them with archaeological data - they admit that they were wrong. Now think about something else.
    For example, about when the written language was officially created in Russia - and when it was used in Novgorod.
    The second question - if there was Novgorod - then where is Stargorod.
    The third question - what was the writing in Russia before Cyril and Methodius? and what are retrins runes?
    Question Four - what is genetic memory - and the modern alphabet. Give a small comparison of the ABC of the modern - descriptive Orthodox of the 19-18 century and the Retrina runes - how many coincidences will there be?
    1. Ivan1988
      Ivan1988 23 May 2017 14: 03 New
      0
      There is a memory among the people. The annals briefly say "... and many curses of creation." And the saying "an uninvited guest is worse than a Tatar" - what’s it for? Why is this comparison not with the German or the Swede (Neva battle and the Battle of the Ice), namely with the Tatar?
      Joachim Chronicle explains. that there was the city of Slaven (or Slavensk), destroyed by fire. instead, in the new place they built the New City - Novgorod, i.e.
      1. nixar
        nixar April 18 2018 22: 39 New
        0
        very true, the glorious “victories” of Sashka Nevsky (he is 18-20 years old) in terms of scale, such as a small fight, hence the memory, I suppose, can’t be said about Borodino
  • starch
    starch 21 July 2012 22: 11 New
    0
    I don’t think so. After all, the Mongolian troops were prepared by the enamored Khitan prince Yeluy Chu Tsai. According to Vladimir Sechinsky, Yeluy used the Mongols to unite the Celestial Empire, which broke up into 3 states - the Northern Empire (conquered by the Manchus (Chjurjens), and the Southern Song and Tangut kingdom. The ruin of Northern China, Khorezm, Persia, Georgia, is described in many local sources. if the Westerners decided to humiliate us in this way - they say they were so smart, and we, were conquered by shepherds, then they could hardly falsify the written sources of these civilizations. ongolov over all these peoples and us, carefully disassemble the construction of such a powerful military machine, to once and for all stop all speculation on this sore subject.
  • fgc56gfs
    fgc56gfs 21 July 2012 23: 25 New
    0
    You will probably be surprised - but there is a site in which data about all the inhabitants of the beating USSR.
    Everything that the authorities carefully concealed is now known to everyone on this site
    You drive a name, a surname - and it shows you everything that can beat
    (your relatives, friends, phone numbers, well, a lot)
    And most importantly, it is accessible to everyone, I was really scared at first - you never know what moron there will climb
    Well, the truth is that you can remove yourself from the site, there you just need to find yourself, go through registration and delete

    You will probably be surprised - but there is a site in which data about all the inhabitants of the beating USSR.
    Everything that the authorities carefully concealed is now known to everyone on this site ydn. * Ru / sngpoisk (copy the link without *)
    You drive a name, a surname - and it shows you everything that can beat
    (your relatives, friends, phone numbers, well, a lot)
    And most importantly, it is accessible to everyone, I was really scared at first - you never know what moron there will climb
    Well, the truth is that you can remove yourself from the site, there you just need to find yourself, go through registration and delete
    1. mislavl
      mislavl 22 July 2012 00: 02 New
      0
      stop spam breeding !!!
    2. Zefr
      Zefr 16 December 2016 17: 54 New
      0
      Enter the last name, first name, phone - and the database opens, in which, it turns out, there is your card with your name and surname, and there is even your phone number!
  • mislavl
    mislavl 21 July 2012 23: 47 New
    -2
    another article by a person who is haunted by the laurels of the "most prominent" historian of the last decade, Fomenko !!!
  • Magadan
    Magadan 22 July 2012 00: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: Hamul
    The truth is that apart from the Ipatiev and Lavrentiev and Radzivilov annals there are practically no sources.

    N-yes ... And I thought there was a limit to sick fantasies. Well, since Sergius of Radonezh was not there, Dmitry Donskoy, too, the Kiev Pechersk Lavra was built by sun worshipers .... Interestingly, I don’t ask about such characters as Emperor Augustus and Julius Caesar - did you tell me, but was Peter the 1st at least?
    Listen, I started to worry, I have a grandfather born in 1904 He died not so long ago, his icons came from his grandfather, and that from his grandfather. I can trace my tree until the 17th century. They say that all were Cossacks, Orthodox.
    Interestingly, is my grandfather wrong or is it you - Vanya, who doesn’t remember his relationship ?!
    I will not grovel in front of you about Easter eggs. According to the word of Christ "do not throw your pearls in front of pigs"
    1. Horde
      Horde 22 July 2012 00: 43 New
      -1
      you tell me, but was Peter the 1st at least?


      in their book "The Fictional Tsar and the Forged Tsar" Fomenko and Nosovsky provide convincing evidence that Ivan4 is essentially four different tsars, and Peter1 was replaced by another person during his cruise through Europe.
    2. nixar
      nixar April 18 2018 22: 45 New
      0
      do not distort, and dm. was Don, and Sergius, and, unfortunately, Peter. that's just what they did sensible / good / useful, midfielders of the Russian land?
  • pluton
    pluton 22 July 2012 01: 05 New
    +1
    The trouble was that archaeologists, for almost 15 years of searching, could not find unequivocal evidence of the existence of Kozelsk destroyed by Batu.


    Source: Ancient Kozelsk found!
    http://www.nedelya40.ru/index.php?newsid=1172

    Found ancient Kozelsk!

    29-09-2011, 14:49


    Found ancient Kozelsk!

    Archaeologist, researcher at the Kaluga Regional Museum of Local Lore, candidate of historical sciences Igor BOLDIN told the “KN” correspondent the details of the excavations this summer in Kozelsk and the dramatic history that preceded them.



    Quiet and smooth ...

    Until 1992, by and large, there were no questions about the location of the legendary, annalistic Kozelsk that Batu took. The Kozelchans were proud of the city, the land of Kaluga - the staunchness and courage of their ancestors, who did not flinch before the Batyevsky hordes. The feat of Eupathius Kolovrat entered into all anthologies. The dramatic situation was created in 1992; it was then that the Kozelsk problem went beyond the scope of academic discussion.

    In 1992, the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences (IA RAS) together with the Kaluga Regional Museum of Local Lore (KOKM) conducted an unprecedentedly large-scale research work on the territory of Kozelsk. Rashid Nigmatullin, Galina Massalitina and Oleg Proshkin led the archaeological work. The expedition was attended by scientists of various specializations: geophysicists and soil scientists from Moscow, employees of the State Historical Museum ... In other words, it was a powerful integrated expedition. It was discovered about 200 square meters. meters in different parts of the city, including the shaft of the ancient settlement. But alas ... The main result of the work was the complete lack of materials of pre-Mongol time. And just then the question arose: where, in fact, was Kozelsk, famous for its heroic defense ... The range of search for Kozelsk expanded almost unlimitedly; several cities with similar names began to claim the title of “evil city,” not even in Russia.

    In fairness, I must say: in the same 1992, the scientists Proshkin, Massalitina, Nigmatullin during the inspection of the modern city noted the site, the most promising for solving this problem. The plot was located on a built-up hill at the mouth of the Drugusna River. But then there was no way to continue the excavation: remember the year 1992, the Gaidar reform and - everything will become clear. There were no funds. Absolutely.



    Searches in the "pool" ... and Shakespearean passions



    In 1997, the Institute of Archeology, together with the Kaluga Regional Museum of Local Lore, made another attempt to explore the same promising site. But on the hill itself, according to scientists, it was the so-called “Detinets”, the “Kremlin” of the ancient pre-Mongolian Kozelsk, a bakery was located from Soviet times; and from the seventeenth century there was the Ascension Church, to our time, pretty destroyed. The archaeologists Proshkin, Nigmatullin and Massalitina were able to find the excavation site only in the east of the hill. Two excavations were laid, but both luck did not bring: one excavation rested in a cemetery, the second - in communication. Despite the fact that there was no cultural layer as such (only a site of the early Slavic layer was found in one excavation site), among the finds in the mixed layers were objects of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, including glass bracelets.



    BREAK: Glass bracelets are an indicator of the period of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, in the subsequent era their number is reduced several times, the type of beads also changes. In combination with other finds, the found glass beads can confidently date the excavated site from the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.



    On this, research stopped until 2010: there was no funding. But the problem remains. And she found a “way out” in the ever-growing tension of the public and local historians of the city of Kozelka and the Kaluga Museum of Local Lore: scientists could not sin against the truth, even give out very coveted conjectures as facts. Archeology is an exact science. Meanwhile, the wave of "just popular anger" of the villagers was growing. “The absence of ancient Kozelsk”, the conjectures of numerous “scientists” about finding a legendary city in Ukraine or somewhere else heated passions. And everything went to Kaluga archaeologists.



    The path to truth is thorny and difficult ...

    In 2010, small funds were found and, together with Ph.D. Galina Massalitina, the excavation was resumed. Kozelsky schoolchildren worked with us at the excavation site. The first results were encouraging: objects of pre-Mongol time were found, including glass bracelets, ceramics, slate spindle. The results of the work confirmed the feasibility of searching for the chronicles of Kozelsk in this place. If before the inhabitants were ready to tear me to pieces, now they are ready to carry on my hands!

    The Kozelians themselves were encouraged, and already in 2011 we began excavations with the support of representatives of the local administration - Oleg MOSIN and Alexander EVGIN.

    Over the summer, archaeological work was carried out on the same hill, in the territory of the bakery. A very large amount of earthwork was done - with the help of bulldozers and excavators they removed the ballast layer; an excavation of 32 square meters was laid at the bottom of the pit. All the land had to be pulled out with buckets "on a sieve" - ​​two to three meters up; very laborious work!

    Our main success was that this layer was not disturbed from the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, and very interesting old Russian material was found there: bracelets, beads, gold foil in glass, arrowheads, braids, axes, keys, hryvnia locks, spindles and even fragments of leather shoes. The latter survived - because - a wet layer.

    - In the research process of 2010 and 2011, material was obtained that allows us to characterize exactly the urban type of settlement on this site, and I, as a scientist, am sure that this is enough to identify this settlement with the legendary chronicle Kozelsky. Further excavations, I think, will only confirm this conclusion.

    Recorded by Peter KATERINICHEV.
    Photo from the archive of Igor BOLDIN

    Also, the continuation of these excavations in 2012.
    http://kozelsk.ru/news1/?p=1855

    http://alfa2omega.ru/load/referaty/ot_ist/1187/68-1-0-1187

    Archeology evidence

    As far as we know, Ryazan was one of the first invasions. Excavations revealed a tragic picture of the death and destruction of the city. When the troops of Batu appeared, the inhabitants hastily hid their property in stoves or pit heaps, under the floorboards and stairs of the cellars, and the most valuable things were buried in the ground. But no one was able to return for the hidden good. Archaeologists have already discovered 13 such treasures.
    On the banks of the Oka River, in a pit dug in frozen ground, archaeologists have found common graves of victims of the Mongol invasion. The remains of 143 people were found in them, buried after the departure of the Tatars, in the last days of December 1237. People lay in close rows, in places in 2-3 tiers. The conquerors did not spare anyone - many female and children's remains were found along with male bodies. On the skeletons - signs of violent death: traces of saber attacks, severed hands, stuck arrowheads in the bones.
    Treasures, common graves, vast ashes - all this testifies to a terrible catastrophe that struck Russia.
    In the small Upper Volga city of Torzhok, a layer of solid coal 1238 cm thick was deposited from the conflagration of 60.
    Archaeologists estimate that of the 74 cities they studied that date back to the pre-Mongol invasion period, 49 were ravaged by Batu; 14 of them never rose from the ashes. Another 15 could not restore their former significance, turning into villages. “He’s everything from male to female, the priest’s office is whole and black-rumped,” “not a single living person remains in the city, all the same, having died and writing one cup of death,” this message of the chronicler is not an exaggeration.
    Scientists have become unwitting witnesses to hundreds of tragic fates of ordinary, ordinary people. They saw the invasion through the eyes of his contemporaries - children and adults, passionately wanting to survive; through the eyes of people who miraculously survived and came to the ashes of the just-burned cities and the ruins of scolded shrines. More than seven centuries have passed since then ... But even today, researchers are shocked, discovering more and more terrible pictures of Batyev’s ruin.
    1. Zefr
      Zefr 16 December 2016 18: 16 New
      0
      an excavation of 32 square meters was laid
      bracelets, beads, gold foil in glass, arrowheads, scythes, axes, keys, hryvnia locks, spindles and even fragments of leather shoes

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