Military Review

"Flying Dutchman" setting the standard for the destroyer "Leader"

180

During the first decades of the XNUMXst century, the navies of European countries made a breakthrough to nowhere.


The number of ridiculous and absurd projects like the German F125, the Danish Absalon, or the American LCS exceeded all reasonable limits. A sign of a warship is increasingly missing weapons on board.

If the tasks of modern Navy really come down only to participation in police and humanitarian operations, then you should go all the way and rename the naval forces in the fleet of the Ministry of Emergencies.

If we take the defense budget cut as our main task, then the Zamvolt will shine as a guiding star. The mountain of promises that gave birth to the mouse.

But any rule is not without exception.

Among the unarmed destroyers and “messengers” armed with rubber boats, there are a number of units that demonstrate a completely different level of capabilities.

A striking example is the series of missile / command frigates "De Zeven Provinsien" from the Netherlands Navy.

The appearance of the “Seven Provinces” in conditions when the very possibility of a naval conflict with a developed enemy is denied is like magic.

And the point of view of the domestic Navy, the Dutch project is generally a standard. Its concept should be the basis for creating a project for a promising next-generation destroyer (Leader).

To many, this statement seems debatable. To understand what it is about, you need to properly understand the situation.

Why are frigates and destroyers being built?


Nowadays, when small missile ships have demonstrated the ability to strike thousands of kilometers away and have taken the good half of Europe "at gunpoint", many have a logical question. Why spend money on building larger ships?

A large ship is a lot of weapons. Good seaworthiness. Long range.

This is true, but only in part.

A lot of weapons ... But what class and purpose? The number of strike weapons at the frigate Admiral Gorshkov and the Karakurt RTO differs only in half (16 instead of 8 Caliber cruise missiles) with sevenfold difference in displacement.

Sufficient seaworthiness in the open ocean is also provided at much smaller sizes than those possessed by modern frigates and destroyers.


With a displacement of 6000 tons, the frigate is much more in size with light cruisers (Kuma, Nagara, Dido) than war destroyers (Fletcher, only 2500 tons).

Ensuring seaworthiness and autonomy is not a sufficient explanation of the size of surface ships, which in our time are usually classified as frigates and destroyers.

For all the importance of the above parameters, when it comes to thousands of tons of displacement, seaworthiness, autonomy and the number of “Caliber” on board fade into the background.

Displacement of surface ships is most dependent on the quantity, quality and height of the antenna posts


In other words, to deploy radar systems that can detect and fire aerial targets at distances of hundreds of kilometers, a ship of significant size is required.

"Caliber" can arm any RTOs. But to deploy a zonal air defense system, a larger platform is needed at times. At the same time, the radars should be as high as possible, ideally - at an altitude of 25 or more meters from the level of the waterline. It turns out a ship the height of a nine-story house!

The main role of frigates and destroyers of the XNUMXst century is to provide air defense of naval formations. All other tasks of the Navy can be confidently performed by ships of other classes, both smaller in size and superior to the frigate, but having a significantly lower cost.

As the example of “De Zeven Provincien” shows, to deploy a full-fledged air defense / missile defense system, a ship with a total displacement of at least 6000 tons is required.

"Flying Dutchman" setting the standard for the destroyer "Leader"

Its main radar is at the top of the foremast. APAR antenna post with four active phased arrays, created by the Dutch branch of Thales Group. The anti-aircraft fire control complex provides tracking of 200 target tracks and control of 32 fired missiles, with the possibility of illuminating 16 targets. Whether these values ​​correspond to any chosen direction or whether they should be divided into four (by the number of antennas with a 90 ° field of view) is not reported. In any case, the four targets fired from one direction are more than most of his peers could.

The second radar with a black rectangular antenna is designated SMART-L. It also uses AFAR technology.

The power and range of operation of SMART-L are selected from its main task - a long-range radar, whose area of ​​responsibility extends from the troposphere to near-Earth outer space. He is able to track targets at distances up to 2000 km. This is nothing like a missile defense station.

In 2015, in the Pacific Ocean, during a regular missile defense exercise, the Dutch frigate provided target designation for US Navy ships. Focusing on his data, the Americans launched their Standard-3 interceptor missiles. It is indicated that the frigate’s capabilities "exceeded all expectations."

This function is reflected in the appointment of the “Seven Provinces” - the command frigate air defense. No one commands the invading armies from his bridge. The frigate's task is to distribute air targets between the ships of the formation and, if possible, destroy them with their weapons.

The next feature needed to be mentioned earlier when it came to the need for large surface ships.

To ensure the operation of a radar of such power, energy is needed. A lot of energy.

Four Finnish Värtsilä V12 diesel generators provide De Zeven Provinsien with an electric power of 6,6 MW.

For comparison: the Sheffield type destroyer (4300 tons, 1970) had four diesel generators on board with a total capacity of only 1 MW.

Created in the late 80's. The destroyer Arly Burke was equipped with three gas turbine generators with a total capacity of 7,5 MW. This is only 15% higher than the “De Zeven Provinsien”, which is inferior to the destroyer in terms of displacement by as much as 40%.

But as you know, the ship can not be estimated only by size. The Dutch frigate is a combat vehicle pierced by energy flows. Emitting hard quanta into the surrounding space.

The combined power unit of the frigate consists of two 26-cylinder cruising diesel engines manufactured by Wärtsilä and two British gas turbines Rolls-Royce Spray. Their combined work provides a speed of 28 knots (according to other sources, 30 knots).

Like other Western ships, the frigate was not spared "European values". The design possibilities of the “Seven Provinces” allowed clearly more than the political ambitions of the Netherlands.

The frigate was artificially reduced in armament - it was decided to abandon part of the rocket launchers. Therefore, instead of the sixth section of the UVP, a patch “gapes” on the deck.


Ammunition is limited to 40 UVP cells. In the calculated version, it consists of 32 Standard-2 long-range anti-aircraft missiles and 32 ESSM short / medium-range missiles, four in one cell.

The possibility of equipping De Zeven Provinsien with Standard-3 atmospheric kinetic interceptors is being considered.

And the modernization of its "medium caliber" can already be considered a settled issue. The former medium-range missiles will be replaced by the Block-2 ESSM with active guidance heads.

The third and final argument in resolving air defense issues is the Goalkeeper. The most powerful seven-barreled artillery system, similar to the 30-mm gun of the A-10 attack aircraft. “Goalkeeper” - perhaps the best development in the field of active defense of ships in the near zone. The complex has been in service with the Netherlands Navy since 1980.

Initially, it was assumed that there would be two “Goalkeepers” to ensure a closed air defense circuit. In practice, due to the economy, the frigate was left with only one automatic anti-aircraft gun covering the aft corners.

The dimensions of the air defense frigate allow moderately versatile by ship.

His 127-mm artillery is the Italian licensed Oto Melara installation, which the Dutch purchased to dismantle decommissioned Canadian frigates. It is planned to replace it with modern artillery systems of the same caliber.

Eight anti-ship “Harpoons” are also planned to be replaced with new-generation small-sized anti-ship missiles (probably the Norwegian NSM).

On board there is a multi-purpose helicopter, a sonar sonar station and the MK46 anti-submarine weapon system (324-mm torpedoes of the American production).

The ship is equipped with a pair of all-angle optical detection systems, including for operation in the thermal range. The countermeasures include two French electronic warfare systems, the American SRBOC complex for setting curtains from dipole reflectors and a towed anti-torpedo rattle (Nixie).

The approximate number of crew is 230 people.


Common sense dictates: this is exactly what a modern missile frigate (destroyer) should have

The most expensive and technically rich class of surface warships of the XNUMXst century, with the exception of nuclear supercarriers


A series of four frigates, De Zeven Provincien, did not aim to create the very best ship. And those frigates were never such.

There are even more powerful and sophisticated air defense ships - the British destroyers Type 45 Dering, so expensive that they are made of gold.

The Americans are pushing with all their strength to build the eighth dozen "Arly Berkov" - whoppers with 90 rocket launchers. Which, however, do not have that superiority in the near air defense due to the lack of an APAR analogue.

Strictly speaking, De Zeven Provincien is not one such. He is closely related to the German Saxony-class air defense frigates and the Danish frigates of the Iver Hütfeld type. All are equipped with the same radar system (APAR + SMART-L), but have a different hull design, power plant and differ in the composition of weapons.

At the same time, Iver Hutfeld is 10 years newer and more advanced on a number of secondary issues.

The following illustration shows the Danish Peter Willemos, built in 2009-2011. Handsome man! In the aft part of the superstructure, a 35-mm anti-aircraft “Oerlikon” is visible, firing with programmable shells. The impression of the project is spoiled by two launchers of different sizes. As a result, the flexibility of using weapons that is characteristic of the Dutch frigates is not achieved. Plus pointless 76 mm caliber artillery.


With all due respect to similar designs, none of the creators of surface ships of the 1st rank of our time could achieve the remarkable balance of characteristics that was achieved in the project “De Zeven Provinsien”.

The Dutch frigate cannot be repeated in our conditions. And here is no negative connotation


Studying the design itself, which is an international "vinaigrette", does not give anything that could be of value to the Russian Navy.

For us, neither technical solutions nor the methods used in the design and construction of De Zeven Provinsien are of interest.


He was not threatened by any sanctions or fears related to components of foreign manufacture. The Netherlands could count on help and cooperation with European countries and the United States. After all, a little friend is always convenient to pat on the shoulder.

Therefore, one should not be surprised at the pace of construction: less than four years from the moment of laying to commissioning.

The mentioned air defense complex, the main element of the frigate, was created not only in the interests of the Dutch fleet. The other elements of the De Zeven Provinsien also represented proven solutions that had been used on ships of Western nations for decades.

In this sense, we have nothing to borrow from the Dutch.

The only thing to follow is the understanding of the situation itself: why a large surface ship is needed.

The Dutch in practice embodied the idea of ​​an outstanding air defense ship. And for nothing, a frigate of this size is not needed


In a less categorical form, this idea can be formulated in a different way: all the rest of the functional (means of anti-aircraft defense, Caliber, helicopter) will inevitably be present on board a ship of such large sizes. As a reasonable supplement.

The main thing is not to get involved and not to build another monster.

The creators of the domestic frigate of project 22350 (the lead one is Admiral Gorshkov) generally share this point of view.

The key difference between Gorshkov and other Caliber carriers is the “pyramid” in the bow of the superstructure, which soared 25 meters above the waves. A radar complex is located there, consisting of two radars, short-range and general detection.

And somewhere far below, under the deck, covered with waterproof covers, the fairings of 32 Redut anti-aircraft missiles glimmer dimly ...


Concerning News about the development and planned laying of the destroyer "Leader", then I was always amazed at the voiced values ​​of its displacement. 18, 20 and even 30 thousand tons!

In what century are those who believe that the destroyer should have such dimensions?

Twenty years ago, a frigate with a total displacement of 6050 tons was enough to accommodate the most bulky existing weapon for surface ships (long-range air defense systems with air defense / missile defense radars) and a full range of auxiliary weapons.
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  1. tlauicol
    tlauicol 26 December 2019 18: 22
    +6
    Oleg first cooled to the carriers who sang ..
    then to the superfood Zamwolt ...
    now praises De Zeven ...

    Ecclesiastes of some sort ... all the fuss
    1. Mityay65
      Mityay65 26 December 2019 20: 11
      +1
      Zamvolt is very sexy ... Striped villains should have called her (his) female name! belay
    2. lucul
      lucul 26 December 2019 20: 21
      +2
      now praises De Zeven ...

      Attention, the question is how far this De Zeven will glow on radars when its active APARs are activated? )))
      1. arkadiyssk
        arkadiyssk 27 December 2019 10: 23
        +1
        In any way it will not shine on "radars". At radio intelligence stations, yes. But what opportunities does Gorshkov have, for example, or the Navy's SU-30?
      2. Passing
        Passing 27 December 2019 17: 58
        +1
        Not further than the radio horizon. Yes, for AWACS it is hundreds of kilometers, but how many APLOs fly in the ocean? A little, and all exclusively American.
        1. lucul
          lucul 27 December 2019 21: 38
          +1
          Not further than the radio horizon.

          Really ..... and why then create stealth ships))))
          1. Mityay65
            Mityay65 28 December 2019 19: 43
            +1
            The "stealth ships" of the first wave, in particular the Zumvolt, are optimized in shape from the ICRC satellites, such as Legend / Liana. Zumvolt is a Cold War era ship, and it was originally conceived from the threats that existed in the final period of the Cold War. The main threat to the ICRTs "Legend", and not AWACS aircraft or surface ships' radar, is secondary. Therefore, it turned out like this, and therefore it is not in demand, no matter how they try to endow it with another essence.
            Now the conditions have changed, the Navy strategists do not see a threat from satellite systems, for various reasons.
            "Stealth ships" of the new era are optimized in a different way, for different tasks.
            1. lucul
              lucul 28 December 2019 20: 08
              0
              optimized differently for other tasks.

              And under what? )))))
              1. Mityay65
                Mityay65 28 December 2019 23: 02
                +1
                Quote: lucul
                And under what? )))))

                So it is written - for others smile
    3. Santa Fe
      26 December 2019 21: 03
      +12
      now praises De Zeven ...

      Why just now. I cited it five years ago as an example. As the most adequate ship and proof of the small dimensions of modern weapons
    4. asr55
      asr55 29 December 2019 22: 42
      -2
      He has not cooled, he simply does not chop it, so he is not an expert. He is rather an EXPERT whose sofa has been twisted. It’s more difficult to say !!!
    5. max702
      max702 30 December 2019 17: 09
      -1
      I read here the comments and reviews on the article and the conclusion is this, after a long time and pulling owls on a swollen globe, everyone came to the conclusion that it is for OUR country that the maritime conflict inevitably develops into a nuclear one, and with it into a third world one .. Hence the conclusion, We cannot build a fleet capable of fighting the enemy with "conventional" means IN ANY WAY! Not theoretically, not practically .. The difference in resources (in all) is too great .. That is, the production of any sophisticated wunderwaves will not change the thesis of imminent defeat .. Accordingly, it makes no sense to rest with a horn in this component of the defense capability of our country, that is, the fleet is exclusively an auxiliary force for other types and arms of troops .. In peacetime, this is an expensive ballast, in wartime, simply wasted resources that will not positively affect the outcome of the confrontation, but on the contrary, they will take away what is necessary from those who can oppose something to the enemy .. Based on this, further mriya about wunderwalks in the form of AUG or individual mega-costly units are harmful and criminal .. What, in principle, we are observing today, the Ministry of Defense looks at the fleet as poor worthless relatives, allocating crumbs of resources to them, perfectly understanding that there is no particular sense in this, resources will spend the result and some effect will be .. Still, the toad in the form of SSBNs was strangled in favor of the Strategic Missile Forces and space, then quite b it was good ..
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 26 December 2019 18: 25
    +1
    Most modern European ships look somehow loose, but this one does not.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 26 December 2019 18: 31
      -2
      The main thing is not to get involved and not to build another monster
      they will not build ... a "leader" for sure ... there is a degradation of the fleet, there is no revival at the expense of boats (MRK) ... but there is a "galley" and "rowing".
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 26 December 2019 23: 52
        +1
        the role of the individual in history is revealed, and who oars tucked for rowers? can carpenters also be to blame?
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 21 January 2020 16: 02
      0
      And at the same time, very expensive, which clearly speaks of small series or even single ships. The British, with their pr. 45, drifted very smoothly from 12 to six. And six, even the very good 45s, will not replace the 12 42nds, just because of the quantity.
  3. Doctor
    Doctor 26 December 2019 18: 38
    +2
    The ship must be built according to the task and the threat. Why do we need an air defense ship? Cover the target from the air away from the coast. Our adversary in the open ocean? AUG. Whatever air defense frigate we built, it will not be able to cover the target from the aircraft carrier. To protect the barge with the battalion of marines from air from AB, you need 20 pieces of air defense frigates. It makes no sense.
    The main threat from the sea for us is the US nuclear submarine. Invisible, powerful, sudden adversary. Need frigates PLO.
    1. Mityay65
      Mityay65 26 December 2019 20: 08
      +4
      Quote: Arzt
      Need frigates PLO.

      Or a single multi-purpose ship of the far sea zone - a frigate.
      Air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense systems in abundance. Means of reconnaissance, surveillance and guidance - a lot and all.
      But to leave striking weapons to a minimum.
      The strikes will be made by basic aviation, nuclear submarines and armored personnel carriers from the continent. Perhaps space-based.
      1. bayard
        bayard 27 December 2019 14: 40
        +3
        Quote: Mityai65
        Quote: Arzt
        Need frigates PLO.

        Or a single multi-purpose ship of the far sea zone - a frigate.

        For DM and OZ only this.
        That should be 22350M.
        And the modern "Gorshkov" meets these requirements only partially - the problem is in limited ammunition (both anti-ship missiles / PLRT and air defense missiles), insufficiently powerful and perfect SAC, one helicopter (for the oceanic zone it is desirable to have two).
        But the 22350M in fact will already be a destroyer, not a frigate.
        And frigates, like DMZ ships of limited / lesser displacement, should have specialization - emphasis in armament / equipment for air defense or anti-aircraft defense.
    2. Sergey1987
      Sergey1987 27 December 2019 13: 57
      -1
      Quote: Arzt
      To protect the barge with the battalion of marines from air from AB, you need 20 pieces of air defense frigates.

      Is it not much? Let's even take our frigate Admiral Kasatonov - this is 20x32 = 640 ZR. And this is not counting ZARK Broadsword. Do you think 10 squadrons will fly to a barge with marines?
      Quote: Arzt
      Need frigates PLO.

      Well, we have a BOD, but I still think that we need multifunctional ships. Able to destroy any targets.
    3. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 21 January 2020 16: 04
      0
      If a ship of the frigate-destroyer type had been under construction for a year or two, then it would have been possible to build on the basis of some nearby prospects. But alas, even mattress mats, even such a mature project as "Arlie Bjork" have been built for almost three years, plus the process of bringing them to real combat capability.
  4. timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 26 December 2019 18: 38
    +14
    The leader is the strike ship, in fact, the reincarnation of the battlecruiser. What can he have in common with this frigate?
    1. Good_Anonymous
      Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 18: 43
      +5
      For whom or what will he strike - at AUG? For some reason, it seems that the AUG will eat the Leader (with the Gorshkovs) and will not choke.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 26 December 2019 18: 50
        +8
        AUG he and the Dutchman will eat. De Zeven is a good frigate for defense against the Russian Navy. But not shock nifig. Very good for them, but we don’t really need a ship without fists
        1. Good_Anonymous
          Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 19: 17
          0
          Quote: Tlauicol
          AUG he and the Dutchman will eat


          Quote: Tlauicol
          But not shock nifig.


          This is what we are talking about - A leader is (hypothetically) a shock.
          1. Sergey1987
            Sergey1987 27 December 2019 13: 59
            0
            Quote: Good_Anonymous
            This is what we are talking about - A leader is (hypothetically) a shock.

            And what are not strike destroyers?))))
            1. Good_Anonymous
              Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 14: 05
              0
              Those. You agree with the hypothesis.
              1. Sergey1987
                Sergey1987 27 December 2019 17: 06
                0
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                Those. You agree with the hypothesis.

                I do not understand with what hypothesis?
                1. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 18: 04
                  0
                  That Leader is a shock.
                  1. Sergey1987
                    Sergey1987 28 December 2019 10: 20
                    0
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    That Leader is a shock.

                    ))) So this is not a hypothesis, this is a fact. In a priori, the destroyer or destroyer cruiser.
      2. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 26 December 2019 18: 57
        +4
        Eat if caught in the combat radius of aviation. And if the aircraft does not fall into some kind of missile ambush.
        1. Good_Anonymous
          Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 19: 20
          +7
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Eat if caught in the combat radius of aviation.


          To hit the ACG, the Leader himself will have to go inside this radius.
          1. timokhin-aa
            timokhin-aa 26 December 2019 19: 52
            +6
            If he is alone in the ocean - yes. But he doesn't have to be there alone

            More details here - https://topwar.ru/162786-stroim-flot-ataki-slabogo-poteri-silnogo.html

            The leader is an ideal candidate for such raiders as described in the article. Better - along with submarines.
            1. Good_Anonymous
              Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 20: 22
              +4
              He can frolic in communications, of course, but you must first go out there. And the raider will only live until the moment of discovery, then as many anti-ship missiles will be lowered onto him as his air defense does not survive. After which aircraft PLO will eat submarines.
              1. timokhin-aa
                timokhin-aa 26 December 2019 20: 30
                -4
                but you need to go out there first.


                Deploy in advance in an endangered period.

                The rest is as it goes. He can pull half of the enemy Navy toward himself, but if there really is a superiority in speed, then they are tortured to catch up with him. Maybe they won't catch up at all.

                He will be able to start an ambush pursuit of PLAT and PLARK without any problems. And deck aircraft with anti-ship missiles, instead of the real target, can detect inflatable corner reflectors on crewless boats, and get into a meat grinder at the exit from the attack. Wing preparation - five years of time on modern aircraft.

                Well something like that.

                No, everything can be in a war, but if this "Leader" can hold at least 35-36 knots for a long time, it will be almost impossible to get it.

                Here is another look.
                https://topwar.ru/158716-kak-raketnomu-korablju-potopit-avianosec-neskolko-primerov.html

                и

                https://topwar.ru/160249-nadvodnye-korabli-protiv-samoletov-raketnaja-jera.html
                1. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 20: 54
                  +3
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  but if this "Leader" can hold at least 35-36 knots for a long time, it will be almost impossible to get it.

                  can you catch up with aeroplans? and?
                2. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 21: 21
                  -2
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  He can pull half of the enemy Navy toward himself, but if there really is a superiority in speed, then they are tortured to catch up with him.


                  One can argue that they will be monitored in the same way as the Soviet RTOs followed the AUG.

                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  He can pull half of the enemy Navy toward himself, but if there really is a superiority in speed, then they are tortured to catch up with him.


                  Airplanes will catch up with him. Coastal.

                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  He will be able to start an ambush pursuit of PLAT and PLARK without any problems.


                  Airplanes ambush submarines? In addition, the submarine will not be able to maintain the speed at which the raider runs. More precisely, she can, but at such a speed she is blind, and the whole ocean hears her.

                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  https://topwar.ru/158716-kak-raketnomu-korablju-potopit-avianosec-neskolko-primerov.html


                  I read it as soon as it was published smile But there is a set of tricks that work once, and even then, most likely, in peacetime - until the ships go in convoys.
                  1. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 23: 57
                    -4
                    Airplanes ambush submarines? In addition, the submarine will not be able to maintain the speed at which the raider runs. More precisely, she can, but at such a speed she is blind, and the whole ocean hears her.

                    Yes, not planes, but an escort of an aircraft carrier. For example, this scenario:

                    In one of Russia's friendly African or Latin American countries, the American AHG blocked our military contingent, which supported the legitimate government in an attempted coup. Our KUG (destroyers 23560 and / or frigates 22350) is advanced for a debilitating strike, followed by our 885 project rocket carriers, which occupy a position halfway to the theater of military operations. A missile strike from a maximum distance delivers a missile strike, as a result of the enemy’s missile strike causes losses. Our KUG begins to retreat, and when the escort surface ships begin to pursue, then breaking away from their submarines, they themselves are ambushed by our submarine missile carriers and suffer even greater losses. After which the whole group can return and finish off the aircraft carrier remaining without an escort and lift the blockade, breaking the enemy’s submarines along the way.

                    Something like this...
                    1. pin_code
                      pin_code 28 December 2019 11: 02
                      -1
                      who will let KUG approach the distance of launching missiles is some kind of fantasy. KUG will grab lule from the AUG planes and ships much earlier.
                      1. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 28 December 2019 23: 39
                        -2
                        Quote: pin_code
                        who will let you come KUG to the distance of launching missiles, some kind of fantasy. KUG much earlier grabbed lyuley from aircraft and ships AUG.

                        Who will they have permission to ask? Approached 800 km (range of the advanced Onyx), worked out and retreat ...
                      2. pin_code
                        pin_code 29 December 2019 03: 11
                        -1
                        no one will ask, they came and went to the bottom. and it’s not a fact that the missiles will be launched, and no one will allow anyone to approach 1 km.
                      3. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 29 December 2019 03: 19
                        -2
                        Why 1000 km? What ceiling did you get these numbers from? The radius of detection of DLRO AUGs is 800 kilometers and it is not a fact that aerial reconnaissance will patrol over the area from which the missiles will be launched at the moment when our KUG will go there. I repeat with the new Onyx, from a distance of 800 km you can strike. And not by the aircraft carrier itself, but by the escort, whose ships can be located at a considerable distance from the aircraft carrier.
                      4. pin_code
                        pin_code 30 December 2019 08: 30
                        0
                        if there are AWACS and fighter cover, which prevents to increase the shoulder of flights. and no one changed the satellites, or are they just for weather forecasting?
                      5. pin_code
                        pin_code 30 December 2019 08: 35
                        0
                        Hokai scans for 400 km in general, perhaps more. so without YOUR component from the air cover, even thinking there is nothing to rub near foreign shores. It will turn out very expensive and inglorious. whatever one may say, but we need our own aircraft carriers, not strike ones, but the air defense is accurate and no less than the standard ones in size.
                3. Pustogolov
                  Pustogolov 27 December 2019 17: 47
                  0
                  It's all on the brink of fantasy. When will this "Leader" be built? You build frigates for 10 years. And this one is 40 years old. Until they are launched, it will be necessary to dispose of it.
                4. IL-NAVY
                  IL-NAVY 31 December 2019 23: 05
                  0
                  He can pull off half of the enemy Navy
                  Alexander good night New Year. laughing
                  As they say, about trimming sturgeon.
                  We will not talk about quality, compare the number and you can close the topic of ambush.
          2. Mityay65
            Mityay65 26 December 2019 20: 02
            0
            Quote: Good_Anonymous
            To hit the AUG Leader

            The concept of the modern multi-purpose ship of the Russian Navy is, IMHO, pointing at AUG-KUG strike weapons of ground (continental), air or underwater base. Duplicate Legends / Creepers. To perform this function, he must accompany AUG-KUG at a great distance, preferably imperceptibly, and have the ability to open an air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft warrant order.
            Therefore, strike weapons on board - minimum.
            It does not need it, it needs reconnaissance and guidance means at a great distance: many and different.
            As well as air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense systems in abundance. Still, the objective function is to hold out for half an hour under AUG-KUG bombs and missiles.
            We need long-distance communications (not satellite).
            1. Good_Anonymous
              Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 20: 12
              +5
              Quote: Mityai65
              The concept of the modern multi-purpose ship of the Russian Navy is, IMHO, pointing at AUG-KUG strike weapons of ground (continental), air or underwater base.


              Why do you need a displacement of 20000 tons for this? And "aiming" at the AUG, despite the fact that the AUG sees much further, is a dubious ability.

              Quote: Mityai65
              To perform this function, he must accompany AUG-KUG at a great distance, preferably imperceptibly, and have the ability to open an air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft warrant order.


              Those. he sees aug, but aug does not see him? And does this last for a long time? Sounds like a fantasy.

              Quote: Mityai65
              Still, the objective function is to hold out for half an hour under AUG-KUG bombs and missiles.


              Why exactly half an hour?
              1. Mityay65
                Mityay65 26 December 2019 20: 26
                0
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                Why for this is a 20000 ton displacement?

                Of course not. I find it difficult to say how much is needed for the multi-purpose ship of the Navy of the far sea zone. But I think within Gorshkov.
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                Those. he sees aug, but aug does not see him? And does this last for a long time?

                The frigate unit is mobile, dynamic, constantly located outside the AWACS AUG-KUG. AUG-KUG should be detected by Legend / Liana or radio interception means. Before a missile strike, it enters the aviation coverage area to open an air defense / missile defense order and guidance.
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                Sounds like a fantasy.

                Come on, striped friends will oversleep everything in the world ... in an extreme case, it will divert attention.
                Quote: Good_Anonymous
                Why exactly half an hour?

                The approximate period for striking a BR on an AUG-KUG order.
                1. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 20: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Mityai65
                  I find it difficult to say how much is needed for the multi-purpose ship of the Navy of the far sea zone. But I think within Gorshkov.


                  Then it is not a Leader.

                  Quote: Mityai65
                  AUG-KUG should be detected by Legend / Liana or radio interception means. Before a missile strike, it enters the aviation coverage area to open an air defense / missile defense order and guidance.


                  Suppose the satellite detected the AUG, at that moment the Leader accidentally found himself at the detection boundary (300 km, say), and immediately rushed to "open the air defense / missile defense" at 33 nodes (60 km / h). The enemy is burdocks, and they detect him only after half an hour, i.e. at 270 km. After that, a meeting delegation from the RPC and / or Hornets is sent to the Leader's meeting, and he still does not see aug. After 20 minutes, the delegation arrives, and a hit of 1-2 anti-ship missiles at best disables the ship, while at the same time he still does not see the ACG (250 km before it). What's the point of this? It would make sense if the Leader would stay outside the detection range and shoot himself, according to satellites, but I do not know if this is technically possible.

                  Quote: Mityai65
                  The approximate period for striking a BR on an AUG-KUG order.


                  And who strikes?
                  1. Mityay65
                    Mityay65 26 December 2019 21: 32
                    -2
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    Then it is not a Leader.

                    I’m just writing that the Leader’s concept is harmful.
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    What's the point of this?

                    Well, you thought everything was approximately true: 1 hour from the moment of detection to striking + 30 minutes you have to hold out under the bombing strike. The frigate is suitable for a distance of approximately 210 km. It is enough to open an air defense / missile defense order, especially if there will be reconnaissance drones and Ka-31 AWACS on board, and to divert part of the AUG-KUG forces. Open an order, composition, course, speed is enough.
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    according to satellites, but I don’t know if this is technically possible.

                    I believe that Legend / Liana will be under attack first. Therefore, at this point, the ICRC satellite system will not exist as such, but there will be separate satellites in orbit, about 10-15% of the number, and marine reconnaissance satellites will be launched. You can’t count on this.
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    And who strikes?

                    Ideally, a ballistic missile from the continent. It flies for 30 minutes, warheads need target designation before diving into the atmosphere, when external communications will be lost. This is what the frigate is for. Final target designation on the last leg of the flight. There will be no more satellites, homing while experiments. Accordingly, you need someone who will give out the last correct coordinates, course and speed.
                    Or a long-range air-based cruise missile (swarm). Hypersound or supersonic. To guide the swarm, you will also need a frigate, but here it will be simpler, because Roy himself has the functions of searching for goals. But long-range guidance will be necessary.
                    Or BR and KR with nuclear submarines. It’s generally good here - for the nuclear submarines, the flight time is minimal, with target designation it will be possible to shoot the order in a dash.
                    1. Good_Anonymous
                      Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 22: 15
                      0
                      Quote: Mityai65
                      1 hour from the moment of detection to striking + 30 minutes you need to hold out under the bombing strike.


                      I do not think the conditional Leader will survive the first blow. If the ship is detected at a distance of 270 km, then anti-ship missiles at a speed of 900 km / h will be at the target in 18 minutes.

                      Quote: Mityai65
                      . The frigate is suitable for a distance of approximately 210 km. It is enough to open an air defense / missile defense order, especially if there will be reconnaissance drones and Ka-31 AWACS on board


                      According to my calculations, it will do the best for 250 km. If "opening an order" is establishing the location and course of his ships, how can you do this from a distance of 250 km (and even 210 km)? 250 km (210 km) is the distance to the AWACS aircraft coordinating the attack, it hangs a couple of hundred kilometers from the aircraft carrier, the order itself is scattered for tens of kilometers, and from a height of 5000m Ka-31 at best sees at 290 km? This is not to mention the fact that at this altitude the helicopter is just a target for the Hornets' missiles.

                      By the way, what are the characteristics of future drones?

                      Quote: Mityai65
                      And who strikes?

                      Ideally, a ballistic missile from the continent.


                      If this is the notorious Dagger, I already argued with someone on this subject ... But in the bottom line we have a ship sacrificed for the sake of striking, which does not guarantee a successful defeat.
                      1. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 26 December 2019 23: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        I do not think the conditional Leader will survive the first blow.

                        The target function of the multi-purpose air defense / missile defense / anti-submarine frigate frigate is to hold out for half an hour under AUG-KUG bombs and missiles. It is optimized for this, in particular, devoid of striking weapons. Air defense cocoon should repel attacks of anti-ship missiles, including. If he cannot repel 1 - 2 waves of RCC attack, then it is better not to lay it either in the form of a Leader or in the form of a multipurpose frigate.
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        from a height of 5000m, the Ka-31 at its best sees at 290km

                        Yes, somewhere like that, 250 km of rapprochement is enough. Helicopters type Ka-31 should be 2 - 3 units. Again, single Hornets will not be able to overcome the air defense cocoon and threaten AWACS helicopters. Therefore, the Ka-31 will do their job. AUG will be able to organize a coordinated attack about an hour after the frigate is discovered. It will take some time to overcome the work of the marine version of the S-400. But, I think only 2 - 3 wave will achieve its. A total of 1,5 hours is everything for everything. And 1,5 hours, based on your calculations, this is 90 km.
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        By the way, what are the characteristics of future drones?

                        IMHO, the characteristics should be comparable with the Tu-300 or Tu-243 "Flight-D", naturally in a modernized, soiled, barely noticeable version. They start with a solid fuel accelerator.
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        If this is the notorious Dagger

                        Well, definitely not a dagger .. although as an option for scaring crazy Arly Berkov, probably also find application. Dagger carriers have insufficient range. The frigate will not have strike weapons, so it needs to attract someone to strike and the escort.
                        And the main blow, I think, will be done by Yars. Sarmat is redundant.
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        in the bottom line, we have a sacrificed ship for the sake of striking, which does not guarantee a successful defeat.

                        And why not a guarantee? If he does his job and gives target designation to warheads, AUG-KUG has no chance fellow
                      2. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 23: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        But, I think only 2 - 3 wave will achieve its.


                        What is the difference between the 1st and 2nd wave while there are rockets? But in any case, the interval between the waves is the flight time from the order ships to the attacker, i.e. 18 minutes 3 waves will come in an hour. There will be no 1.5 hours. Yes, in general, there won’t be a 2nd wave either - the air defense will overload the first and only.

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        single Hornets will not be able to overcome the air defense cocoon and threaten AWACS helicopters.


                        Whether they will be able to or not is a debatable question, but not the essence. They do not need to overcome the "air defense cocoon" - the helicopter is at an altitude of 5 km (otherwise it will not see anything), so a medium-range I / O missile launched from behind the ship's radio horizon, or a long-range I / V missile launched from - outside the "air defense cocoon", or even long-range missiles.

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        250 km of approach is enough.


                        How can it be enough if the AUG is dispersed over a large area, and the ships can be further than 250km?

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Helicopters type Ka-31 should be 2 - 3 units.

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        characteristics should be comparable with Tu-300 or Tu-243 "Flight-D"

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        I think it will be Yars.


                        Well, when will it all be and whether it will be ...

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        And why not a guarantee?


                        Because AUG has a missile defense system. And she won’t wait for the BB to capture the targets.
                      3. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 27 December 2019 07: 11
                        -1
                        I already wrote somewhere that the most reliable method of tracking and countering the AUG was to escort the aircraft carrier by a cruiser of the "Sverdlov" type, close, at a distance of several cables. A shell in the barrel, a tower in the side. Seaworthiness, speed, and most importantly - reliability, made it possible to maneuver at full speed with the Americans. Of course, all this took place during the "threatened periods" and in the areas where enemy aviation was rising. To meet in time and "hang out" in the center of the order is the only reliable way to destroy an aircraft carrier before the rise of aircraft. Cheap and cheerful. Therefore, we need a modern RELIABLE tracking ship, capable of running for a long time at a speed of up to 35 knots, and capable of immediately applying, say, a URC within the radio horizon (up to 30 km is enough) and ALWAYS something like "Shkval". All this by itself, with YABC. Then the Motherland will be able to sleep peacefully.
                      4. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 10: 29
                        +2
                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        To meet in time and "hang out" in the center of the order is the only reliable way to destroy an aircraft carrier before the rise of aircraft. Cheap and cheerful.


                        This is a guaranteed destruction of the tracking ship. Destruction of an aircraft carrier ... who knows.

                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        All this by itself, with JBCh. Then, the Motherland will be able to sleep peacefully.


                        To start a nuclear war for the sake of a quiet sleep of the Motherland is an so-so idea.
                      5. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 27 December 2019 10: 31
                        -2
                        Are you worried about whose homeland now?
                      6. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 10: 35
                        +1
                        I’m worried not about the Motherland (no matter what Motherland you are talking about), but about nuclear war.
                      7. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 27 December 2019 10: 37
                        +1
                        Do you seriously think that an attack of a dozen zirconium onyxes is not a nuclear war?
                      8. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 10: 40
                        +2
                        I seriously believe that nuclear war is the use of nuclear weapons. In the meantime, it has not been applied - the war is not nuclear.
                      9. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 27 December 2019 10: 42
                        0
                        "A serious face is not yet a sign of intelligence. All nonsense on Earth is done with this facial expression" (perhaps not literally ... Sorry).
                      10. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 10: 43
                        +2
                        The ability to screw a biting quote is also not a sign of the mind. I do not apologize.
                      11. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 27 December 2019 10: 52
                        0
                        Well! Quote is not a vice
                        - Anonymous lesson! hi
                        I give it! Happy you!
                      12. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 11: 01
                        +2
                        Quote: pmkemcity
                        ! Happy you!


                        Thank. You too with the coming.
                    2. Connor MacLeod
                      Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 23: 38
                      -1
                      I believe that Legend / Liana will be under attack first. Therefore, at this point, the ICRC satellite system will not exist as such, but there will be separate satellites in orbit, about 10-15% of the number, and marine reconnaissance satellites will be launched. You can’t count on this.

                      No matter how the opposite happened. The American ICRC system is in a lower orbit, plus we have more powerful anti-satellite missiles at our disposal.
                      1. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 27 December 2019 13: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        No matter how the opposite happened.

                        Both the Russian and American satellite ICRC will be destroyed in the initial, but most likely their hidden destruction will begin in the information-threatened period preceding the outbreak of the conflict. As well, and all the main satellite systems for any purpose. Only the ICRC will probably be destroyed first. They are located in relatively low orbits and they can be perfectly covertly shot from the national territory, which requires the simplest anti-satellite weapons tested in the 80s.
                        Since the topic has been discussed many times here, it’s better to find everything on the Internet, I won’t repeat it.
                        Conclusion: during the war it is impossible to count on satellite systems.
                      2. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 29 December 2019 04: 11
                        -1
                        How will they be destroyed? Liana’s orbit is too high for the SM-3, the performance characteristics of the missile defense are clearly overpriced. The orbit of the NOSS system is also not low, but do not forget that the potential of the A-235 is much greater. It exceeds SM-3 in mass by at least 6 times, therefore it can be expected that the range and height of interception will be much larger. The main thing is to bring it to mind as soon as possible. Well, it would not hurt to strengthen the grouping in orbit ...
                      3. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 30 December 2019 05: 21
                        +1
                        In the 80s. tested by ASAT whales based on F-15. And an analogue of the USSR based on the MIG-31. ASAT had the Legend as the main goal, they refused to deploy just because of the folding of the Legend.
                        Much has been written about anti-satellite weapons. Reluctance to repeat.
                2. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 20: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: Mityai65
                  I find it difficult to say how much is needed for the multi-purpose ship of the Navy of the far sea zone. But I think within Gorshkov.

                  and rightly so, that’s exactly what it is
            2. pin_code
              pin_code 30 December 2019 08: 37
              0
              how many miles will the same leader go in half an hour? what vines? did you see them
          3. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 26 December 2019 23: 47
            -2
            the difference is that the Leader will have Zircons with a range of 1 km + ..
      3. abc_alex
        abc_alex 26 December 2019 21: 49
        -7
        Quote: Good_Anonymous
        For whom or what will he strike - at AUG? For some reason, it seems that the AUG will eat the Leader (with the Gorshkovs) and will not choke.


        How many ships are there in AUG? ten? Or maybe let's count in the opposite direction in your opinion? 10 "Leaders" against 100 AUG. Who will eat whom now?
        They will write all garbage ...
        1. Good_Anonymous
          Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 22: 21
          0
          Quote: abc_alex
          100 "Leaders" against 1 AUG. Who will eat whom now?


          Leaders, naturally.

          Quote: abc_alex
          They will write all garbage ...


          Bullshit is 100 Leaders.
          1. Octopus
            Octopus 26 December 2019 22: 35
            -2
            Quote: Good_Anonymous
            Leaders, naturally.

            Why would this be?
            1. Good_Anonymous
              Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 22: 44
              -2
              100 Leaders have more RCC than SAM missiles. And more missiles than the AUG of anti-ship missiles and aircraft. An order of magnitude, I suppose (consider laziness).
              1. Octopus
                Octopus 26 December 2019 22: 49
                0
                So what?
                How did you get together on 100 leaders to fight an adversary who is an order of magnitude superior to NK in the range of reconnaissance and target designation?
                1. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 22: 52
                  -2
                  Quote: Octopus
                  So what?


                  And that's all.

                  Quote: Octopus
                  How did you get together on 100 leaders to fight an adversary who is an order of magnitude superior to NK in the range of reconnaissance and target designation?


                  Shove the crowd. All the same, the enemy will not have enough weapons.

                  If you wanted to ask "how 100 Leaders will find AUG" - this is a more difficult question, but again I am too lazy to think, because the situation itself is from anti-science fiction.
                  1. Octopus
                    Octopus 26 December 2019 23: 04
                    0
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    All the same, the enemy will not have enough weapons.

                    1. And those Leaders who are enough - at a expense, I understand correctly?
                    2. And if enough for everyone? Let's say the enemy has more than one AUG?
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    To crowd

                    1. Where to go?
                    2. What will prevent the adversary from maintaining the distance he needs?
                    1. Good_Anonymous
                      Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 23: 46
                      -1
                      Quote: Octopus
                      1. And those Leaders who are enough - at a expense, I understand correctly?


                      All Leaders are protected (see above on SAM). Those who are unlucky - yes, at an expense. War.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      2. And if enough for everyone? Suppose an adversary has more than one AUG?


                      And if the enemy has 100 AUGs, then they will eat 100 Leaders. But I was asked about 1 AUG.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      1. Where to go?


                      Attack.

                      Quote: Octopus
                      What will prevent the adversary from maintaining the distance he needs?


                      A leader is faster than an aircraft carrier. The escort may have escaped, but with the destruction of the aircraft carrier AUG ceases to exist.
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 00: 07
                        +2
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        And if the enemy has 100 AUG

                        Now there are 11 of them, it seems. But there were more.

                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        Leader faster than an aircraft carrier

                        Why do you think so? Is it much faster?
                    2. abc_alex
                      abc_alex 27 December 2019 00: 39
                      0
                      Quote: Octopus
                      2. What will prevent the adversary from maintaining the distance he needs?

                      The finiteness of such a resource as fuel. At a minimum, supply vessels and destroyers Arly Burke are limited in range. The leaders with YaSU sooner or later they will simply drive them.
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 01: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        Arly Burke is limited in range. The leaders with YaSU sooner or later they will simply drive them

                        1. And will the enemy have the Berks while you build your 100 Leaders?
                        2. Where to drive? To the coverage area of ​​the enemy’s base aviation?
                      2. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 30 December 2019 00: 16
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And will the enemy have the Berks while you build your 100 Leaders?

                        But there are no others. And in general, as I understand it, is not expected. The States are not doing NK with nuclear weapons, except for aircraft carriers for quite some time.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Where to drive? To the coverage area of ​​the enemy’s base aviation?

                        And will Burki abandon their supply vessels? The speed of the squadron is determined by the slowest ship. But basically, what's the difference? If the Leaders drive Burke into the bases, consider that they have completed their task.
                  2. abc_alex
                    abc_alex 27 December 2019 00: 37
                    0
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    Bullshit is 100 Leaders.


                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    If you wanted to ask "how 100 Leaders will find AUG" - this is a more difficult question, but again I am too lazy to think, because the situation itself is from anti-science fiction.


                    Is the Leader alone at AUG not bullshit and not from unscientific fiction? What kind of dr uk will trample on one destroyer against 10 ships and a submarine?
                    1. Good_Anonymous
                      Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 00: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: abc_alex
                      Is the Leader alone at AUG not bullshit and not from unscientific fiction?


                      It’s also a so-so idea, although not as wild as 100 Leaders. And some consider it viable.
                      1. abc_alex
                        abc_alex 30 December 2019 00: 27
                        0
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        It’s also a so-so idea, although not as wild as 100 Leaders. And some consider it viable.


                        Well, how so-so? A classic of the "liberal" view of our fleet. It’s just a standard trick, in any discussion it will certainly be: "what will your ... do against the US AUG!" And then the conclusion: ".... - it".
                        smile

                        And if you remember, then the message was exactly like this:


                        For whom or what he will strike - by AUG? For some reason, it seems that the AUG will eat the Leader (with the Gorshkovs) and will not choke.

                        This is exactly what you suggested. ONE destroyer against 10 ships AUG, I just "deployed" your message. One to 10. And as you know, this situation is absurdly simple: 10 beat one.
                      2. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 30 December 2019 00: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: abc_alex
                        Well, how so-so? A classic of the "liberal" view of our fleet.


                        The idea of ​​100 Leaders belongs to you personally. Are you a "liberal"?

                        Quote: abc_alex
                        then your message was just this:


                        For whom or what will he strike - at AUG?


                        It was a question. If you look a little, you will even find a post that raised this question.
                2. Connor MacLeod
                  Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 23: 04
                  -2
                  Debatable. Both sides will rely on space-based RTR systems. As far as I know, Liana is in higher orbits compared to the American counterpart. 700-800 km. Hardly SM-3 will get them there. But our A-235 their group will be much easier to gouge.
                  1. Good_Anonymous
                    Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 23: 59
                    +2
                    Quote: Connor MacLeod
                    Both sides will rely on space-based RTR systems.


                    Satellites pass over one area every 1.5 hours and scan a relatively narrow surface area. Rely only they will not work.

                    Quote: Connor Macleod
                    Liana is in higher orbits compared to the American counterpart. 700-800 km.


                    PION-NKS - 500, as they write on the network. They also lie that "the satellites included in the Liana system are already being brought up to a 100-kilometer height."

                    Quote: Connor MacLeod
                    Hardly SM-3 will get them there. And here is our A-235


                    You so freely mix existing (SM-3), nonexistent (A-235), and conditionally existing (Liana) systems smile
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 27 December 2019 00: 35
                      +1
                      Quote: Good_Anonymous
                      PION-NKS - 500, as they say on the network

                      What is the difference that they write on the network about a non-existent satellite? If they start, NORAD will write the orbital parameters right away.
                      Quote: Good_Anonymous
                      satellites included in the Liana system are already being displayed at 100 km altitude

                      900 km at the Lotus. For some reason, satellites do not fly in the atmosphere.
                      Quote: Good_Anonymous
                      Satellites pass over one area every 1.5 hours

                      Who told you that? A satellite in high latitude orbit passes the same every 51.5 minutes latitude, for example, the equator. But longitude is different each time. Let's say one of the lotuses
                      https://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=43657
                      1. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 00: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        PION-NKS - 500, as they say on the network

                        What is the difference that they write on the network about a non-existent satellite?


                        He is already in orbit.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        For some reason, satellites do not fly in the atmosphere.


                        100km is just the border of space.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        Satellites pass over one area every 1.5 hours

                        Who told you that?


                        Depends on the orbit, of course. The point is that satellites pass over one area once in a while.
                      2. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 00: 55
                        -1
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        He is already in orbit.

                        Long?
                        https://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/pion-nks.htm
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        100km is just the border of space.

                        Conditional. At this altitude, the satellite has long been falling, and not just slowing down. If he does not have significant self-traction.
                        As a rule, this is the thrust of the upper stage of the pH.
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        The point is that satellites pass over one area once in a while.

                        Yes, but this is some time for a specific point on the Earth - the scale of the day, not hours. In the case under discussion, this is fundamental.
                      3. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 01: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        He is already in orbit.

                        Long?


                        Was wrong - in the orbit of Liana, not Peony. Although Peony is scheduled to be launched in 2019 - maybe it was.
                      4. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 01: 25
                        -1
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        should launch in 2019 - maybe they did.

                        In Vika, it is still "planned for 2019". Something tells me I need a plan B.
                        in orbit Liana

                        In orbit Lotus-C1.
                    2. Connor MacLeod
                      Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 01: 03
                      -2
                      Quote: Good_Anonymous
                      PION-NKS - 500, as they say on the network. They also lie that "the satellites included in the Liana system are already being brought up to a 100-kilometer height."

                      Even if 500 km is almost twice as high as the satellite’s orbit of the downed SM-3. I believe that 250-300 km is the ceiling for a missile defense of such dimensions.

                      Quote: Good_Anonymous
                      You mix existing ones so freely (SM-3), nonexistent (A-235), and conditionally existing (Liana) system smile

                      They test the A-235 almost every month, there is an option with a conventional warhead, and it seems that they have already been able to intercept the satellite.

                      Well, Liana already has four devices. Further more...
                      1. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 01: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        I believe that 250-300 km is the ceiling for a missile of such dimensions

                        How interesting. Bourgeois write 1500 km for 2a. They probably lie.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        almost every month they experience

                        As is known from sources who wish to remain anonymous.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        it seems like they already intercepted a satellite

                        There is one problem with satellite intercepts: this cannot be done according to anonymous sources. All orbital objects are in the NORAD catalog, and it is open.

                        So what kind of satellite was intercepted there, you say?
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        four devices are already there.

                        Three and one test. Space 2502, 2524, 2528.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Further more...

                        Three devices since 2014.
                      2. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 01: 50
                        -2
                        Quote: Octopus
                        How interesting. Bourgeois write 1500 km for 2a. They probably lie.

                        Naturally. Missiles in such dimensions do not fly at such heights at such speeds. There is no arguing against physics.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        As is known from sources who wish to remain anonymous.

                        https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=минобороны+противоракета

                        Quote: Octopus
                        There is one problem with satellite intercepts: this cannot be done according to anonymous sources. All orbital objects are in the NORAD catalog, and it is open

                        So what kind of satellite was intercepted there, you say?

                        Here is my source. See the description of the third missile launch.
                        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-806.html

                        Quote: Octopus
                        Three and one test. Space 2502, 2524, 2528.

                        Three devices since 2014.

                        And how many Americans?
                      3. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 02: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        There is no arguing against physics.

                        And how does physics interfere with suborbital flight? What is the minimum weight achieved for orbital launch vehicle?
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        See the description of the third missile launch.
                        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-806.html

                        Is it believed that the tests were anti-satellite in nature? I repeat, which satellite was shot down?
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Defense Ministry + Missile Defense

                        I see one, maximum two starts. You wrote something about every month.
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        And how many Americans?

                        Honestly, I'm not interested. But, for example, Planet Labs, a privately owned American company, has a private constellation of surveillance satellites. 150 active devices.
                        And by the way, it is precisely this number of satellites that allows Planet Labs to guarantee the passage of a satellite over any, every point on the earth, just once a day.
                      4. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 02: 41
                        -2
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And how does physics interfere with suborbital flight? What is the minimum weight achieved for orbital launch vehicle?

                        If it seems plausible to you that a 1500-ton rocket at hypersonic speed reaches an altitude of XNUMX km, then for God's sake. I do not!

                        Quote: Octopus
                        Is it believed that the tests were anti-satellite in nature? I repeat, which satellite was shot down?

                        With one hundred percent certainty, I did not say this, I said, seeminglyread carefully. The main thing is that work in this direction is going on, if they succeed, we will get a missile with much better characteristics than the SM-3.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        I see one, maximum two starts. You wrote something about every month.

                        I said almost every month , You are again inattentive. I can assure you that there are much more than two launches, I have been following this missile for a long time. Just too lazy to make a selection of videos.

                        Quote: Octopus
                        Honestly, I'm not interested. But, for example, Planet Labs, a privately owned American company, has a private constellation of surveillance satellites. 150 active devices.
                        And by the way, it is precisely this number of satellites that allows Planet Labs to guarantee the passage of a satellite over any, every point on the earth, just once a day.

                        Well then I'll tell you - eight! The first of the satellites of the NOSS system was launched in 2001, the last in 2017. It is unclear which of them are still functioning and which are not.
              2. Connor MacLeod
                Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 22: 52
                -3
                Let me ask why should he approach 200 km? Direction finding from the radar orbit on enemy ships and you start to work on them from a distance of 800 km (the range of the modernized Onyx allows) You knock out mainly an escort. Then KUG together gets up on skis. And from the chase, you can really put a screen from the submarines as previously suggested.
                1. Good_Anonymous
                  Good_Anonymous 26 December 2019 22: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  Let me ask why should he approach 200 km?


                  I didn’t understand what the question was about, but if it’s about an attack by the AUG ship, I don’t offer this, because it is an obvious suicide.

                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  Direction finding from radar orbit on enemy ships and you start to work on them from a distance of 800 km


                  And according to the "radar direction finding from orbit" can you shoot anti-ship missiles?

                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  work on them from a distance of 800 km (the range of the modernized Onyx allows) You knock out mainly an escort.


                  If the AUG is located no further than 800 km, has no air defense, and does not snarl along the shore. And if far and / or snarls, everything is not so obvious.
                  1. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 23: 19
                    -3
                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    I didn’t understand what the question was about, but if it’s about an attack by the AUG ship, I don’t offer this, because it is an obvious suicide.

                    In one of your previous posts, did you consider the scenario when a Leader approaches 250 km of AHG? Just wondering why?

                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    And according to the "radar direction finding from orbit" can you shoot anti-ship missiles?

                    Well, yes, Legend gave target designation to Granites, Liana will give target designation to Onyxes.

                    Quote: Good_Anonymous
                    If the AUG is located no further than 800 km, has no air defense, and does not snarl along the shore. And if far and / or snarls, everything is not so obvious.

                    Well, Onyx is a hefty missile, it would be possible to put an electronic warfare system on it to jam active active radar-guided missile systems on enemy missiles.
                    1. Good_Anonymous
                      Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 00: 05
                      +1
                      Quote: Connor MacLeod
                      The legend gave target designation to the Granites, Liana will give target designation to the Onyx.


                      Generally speaking, one does not follow from the other. Not to mention how accurate the target designation will be on the "radar direction finding".

                      Quote: Connor Macleod
                      In one of your previous posts, did you consider the scenario when a Leader approaches 250 km of AHG? Just wondering why?


                      I answered the person who suggested that the Leader open the AUG order.
                      1. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 00: 25
                        -2
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        Generally speaking, one does not follow from the other. Not to mention how accurate the target designation will be on the "radar direction finding"

                        Yes, the target’s location is established from orbit by means of passive radio reconnaissance, because of the horizon, anti-ship missiles are launched, which use an inertial navigation system in the initial part of the trajectory, and in the terminal RLSNS. Why else do you think Liana is needed?

                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        I answered the person who suggested that the Leader open the AUG order.

                        Ok, let's go ...
                      2. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 00: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        from the orbit by means of passive radio reconnaissance, the location of the target is established


                        Firstly, this can be done relatively rarely (when the satellite is in a suitable portion of the orbit); secondly, the satellite can view only a relatively small surface area; thirdly, the accuracy of direction finding is incomprehensible.

                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        What else do you need Liana for?


                        They say for intelligence. This is not the same as issuing target designations.
                      3. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 00: 54
                        -2
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        Firstly, this can be done relatively rarely (when the satellite is in a suitable portion of the orbit); secondly, the satellite can view only a relatively small surface area; thirdly, the accuracy of direction finding is incomprehensible.

                        Listen, do not invent the characteristics of the orbit and performance characteristics of the device. You do not know them. All we know is that every hour he will go over the same place ...

                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        They say for intelligence. This is not the same as issuing target designations.

                        The official name of the ICRC system is Liana. Do you know what the abbreviation ICRC means?
                      4. Good_Anonymous
                        Good_Anonymous 27 December 2019 01: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        Listen, do not invent the characteristics of the orbit and performance characteristics of the device.


                        And it seemed to you that I invent them? It seemed to you. I use exclusively open data, arithmetic and common sense.

                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        The official name of the ICRC system is Liana.


                        And what is behind this "C" - the transfer of target coordinates from the satellite to the launch site of the CD or the transfer of the photograph to the headquarters?
                      5. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 01: 31
                        -2
                        Quote: Good_Anonymous
                        And what is behind this "C" - the transfer of target coordinates from the satellite to the launch site of the CD or the transfer of the photograph to the headquarters?

                        Yes, you know, I think that "Targeting" implies the determination and transmission of coordinates. In particular, why does the headquarters need a photograph of an object without its coordinates?
                    2. pin_code
                      pin_code 30 December 2019 08: 44
                      0
                      at least you look at the mass-dimensional parameters of missiles; onyx and Granite were not standing nearby. what do you smoke? can share?
                2. Octopus
                  Octopus 26 December 2019 23: 06
                  +1
                  Quote: Connor Macleod
                  Direction finding from radar orbit on enemy ships

                  And can we select targets and give target designation of RCC already from orbit? Very interesting.
                  1. Connor MacLeod
                    Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 23: 20
                    -3
                    Yes, it is called the Lian system.
                    1. Octopus
                      Octopus 27 December 2019 00: 11
                      +1
                      Quote: Connor Macleod
                      Yes is called the Lian system

                      Does Liana give missile target designation? Liana distinguishes AV from civil traffic? Wow, what technology has come to.
                      1. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 00: 21
                        -3
                        Namely, from the orbit by means of passive radio reconnaissance, the location of the target is established, because of the horizon, anti-ship missiles are released, which use the inertial navigation system at the initial part of the trajectory, and at the terminal RLSNS.
                      2. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 00: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        by means of passive radio reconnaissance, the location of the target is established, because of the horizon, anti-ship missiles are launched, which use the inertial navigation system in the initial section of the trajectory, and in the terminal radar-tracking satellite system.

                        How richly conceived. But did this directly work in 1978?
                      3. Connor MacLeod
                        Connor MacLeod 27 December 2019 01: 13
                        -3
                        I don’t understand, do you have an alternative version regarding Liana’s mission?
                      4. Octopus
                        Octopus 27 December 2019 02: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Connor Macleod
                        version regarding the purpose of Liana?

                        What does "alternative" mean? The legend, like Liana, is an orbital radio intelligence system. 30 years later, various military pensioners began to talk about guiding granites with its help with vodka. I am not aware of a single case of testing the system in this mode. In the second case, this is impossible purely geometrically.
                      5. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 28 December 2019 00: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I am not aware of any cases of testing the system in this mode.

                        The argument above, slightly modified, is also used by the planes and fans of the version that the Yankees flight to the moon was filmed in Hollywood.
                        USSR Navy and its LEGEND (MKRC 17K114) Tells EXPERT
                      6. Octopus
                        Octopus 28 December 2019 02: 35
                        0
                        I look, you found one video about both of my sketches.

                        there are
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Various military retirees began to tell about granite guidance with its help 30 years later.

                        there are
                        Quote: Octopus
                        As is known from sources wishing to remain anonymous

                        As for the diligent young man, along with the bad one - 4 devices provided 24/7 monitoring, it's just a lie - there is good. Lies are not so much in modern times.

                        In particular, the young man does not say a word that the Legend really provided at least once target designation in minimally close to combat conditions.
                      7. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 29 December 2019 00: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Octopus
                        You found one video about both of my sketches.

                        Right I want to understand what you want to say about the Legend / Liana but are embarrassed. No, here are all mine. Nothing worse than she is, we will not know about her. sad
                        Let's go in order:
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And can we select targets and give target designation of RCC already from orbit? Very interesting.

                        Exactly this. The video is clear and fair. Quite right, a database of radar signatures of targets on the underlying surface of the ocean from different azimuths. Elements of early AI. Yes, it was studied - the first candidate, I know, 82 g. But it could be, and I am sure that it was, earlier. Review the video.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Does Liana give target designation for a rocket?

                        Yes, the US-A satellite issued data for opening a KUG-AUG order: coordinates, speed, course, type of ship. Almost in real time, with a transmission delay of about 3 minutes. This was enough to strike at the KGB and search for targets of the GSN of the Kyrgyz Republic. Use swarm tactics. Direct guidance on the ship was carried out by the GSN KR. Introduction to the data in the GOS at the flight stage was not implemented, EMNIP.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Liana distinguishes AV from civil traffic? Wow, what technology has come to.

                        The selection of goals was carried out, including choice of primary and secondary.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        But did this directly work in 1978?

                        It worked exactly in 1988. Probably, in 1978, something partially worked. The system began a pilot deployment. For example, the determination of the coordinates of the KUG and partial selection. It was necessary to collect statistics of measurements of signatures for accurate purpose.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Various military retirees began to tell about granite guidance with its help 30 years later.

                        Look, you are simply blaming living witnesses for senile senility and alcoholism. Not good. Old admirals strong guys recourse
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I am not aware of any cases of testing the system in this mode.

                        And what will convince you? Scan report to the Central Committee on the exercises? lol It is necessary to treat people with confidence ... The mountains on this topic are collected on the Internet.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        In the second case, this is impossible geometrically.

                        This is incomprehensible. Please clarify if possible.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        I look, you found one video about both of my sketches.

                        Very glad I was helpful. But this channel on YouTube is famous, and the masked lad is just an announcer. He voices the opinions of other people who are modest enough, but nevertheless effective and sufficiently informed.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The legend really at least once provided target designation in minimally close to combat conditions.

                        It provided target designation in the box with an indication of the course and speed of the main and secondary goals. But, if you mean entering the coordinates at the flight stage, EMNIP, these were only experiments.
                      8. Octopus
                        Octopus 29 December 2019 01: 27
                        -1
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        I want to understand what you want to say about the Legend / Liana but are embarrassed.

                        Yes, somehow not really shy.
                        Liana / Legend - the usual system of orbital intelligence, which for some reason is passed as Sauron's eye.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Quite right, a database of radar signatures of targets on the underlying surface of the ocean from different azimuths.

                        This statement does not equal the one you refute.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Elements of early AI.

                        No elements of early AI, like the earliest AI, exist on the 78th year orbital system. First, in-orbit AI is useless; it’s much more convenient to place it on Earth in terms of size and energy. Secondly, the processing of data on the ground was not particularly artificial intelligence.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Yes, the US-A satellite issued data for opening a KUG-AUG order: coordinates, speed, course, type of ship.

                        Satellite (Sputnik) could issue the coordinates of the AUG, if she did not want to hide, and could guess that it was an AUG, not civil traffic. More precisely, guessed, of course, non-artificial intelligence.
                        If the AUG wanted to hide, then might not give out. Stories with lost AUGs, including in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, are well known.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Almost in real time, with a transmission delay of about 3 minutes.

                        Not in real time, but with an update several times a day (depends on the number of satellites in orbit). If everything works perfectly.
                        This is the main muhlezh of the legendophiles. By default, it is assumed that it is precisely the moment in time when the satellite passes over the enemy’s grouping that is being considered.
                        By the way, the first satellite shot down by an air-launched missile is the 85th year.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Use swarm tactics. Direct guidance on the ship was carried out by the GSN KR. Introduction to the data in the GOS at the flight stage was not implemented, EMNIP.

                        Yes, there was nothing special to enter. Both the satellite and the GOS missiles (also, God forgive me, with Artificial Intelligence) said the same thing: the rudders on the biggest spot. And this is AB or a tanker - how it goes.
                        This is what is meant by removing the husk. If the striking forces are somewhere near the AB, but beyond visibility, then the system could at some point give a direction where to launch the volley, and rely on the Granit GOS. Of course, this could only work if the Soviet side attacked. Otherwise, most likely, all carriers of Granites would be taken under guardianship in advance, there are not so many of them.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        And what will convince you?

                        When were the exercises held? What drowned?
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        It is necessary to treat people with confidence

                        People nothing do not speak. Necessary more critical relate to people. Eh, we would have wailed - not a conversation.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        This is incomprehensible. Please clarify if possible.

                        The number of Legend satellites changed, how many of them worked at a particular moment is unknown. The number of Liana's satellites is known - 3 (three), and all of them are passive. The enemy knows the time of their passage, the enemy can disguise himself as civilian traffic and use frequencies that cannot be detected from orbit. So if even Liana doesn’t work, you can go here
                        https://worldview.stratfor.com/topic/tracking-us-naval-power
                        And see if there is an aircraft carrier nearby. About the same sense.
                      9. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 30 December 2019 23: 49
                        -1
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Liana / Legend is a conventional orbital intelligence system,

                        Not really. Here you need to understand that the Legend was part of a weapon complex, together with it, the target designation systems of the carrier worked. As the BE KR Basalt / Vulcan / Granite, sequentially on the time of putting into service, processed the information. Each of these systems was a step forward in itself. For example, what is the difference between KR Volcano and Granite? MKRTs Legend was a target designation system specifically for systems that, in the "Granit" version, received data before the start for opening the KUG order, and for targeting a specific swarm of the Kyrgyz Republic per concrete square.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        This statement does not equal the one you refute.

                        Not identical, I agree. But I had in mind the fulfillment of a combat mission, and with it a scholastic dispute. The main thing, in the tactical understanding of the task, is the opening of the KUG-AUG order. By transmitting this data aboard the Kyrgyz Republic, you have already completed the task.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Firstly, in-orbit AI is useless; it’s much more convenient to place it on Earth

                        Of course, you are almost following in the footsteps !. Who said that the AI ​​was located on the space component? All Soviet AI, practically, crawled out of the AI ​​KR "Granite", IMHO. Certainly not on a satellite! The KUG attack was carried out with the help of inter-board data exchange of the CD and the implementation of the "combat tolerance" scheme.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        If AUG wanted to hide, then it might not have betrayed.

                        AUG cannot hide, simply because AUG is an elephant in a china shop. The problem of detecting an AUG is speculative; it is necessary to solve a number of operational and tactical tasks based on the opening of an AUG order.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Stories with lost AUGs, including in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, are well known.

                        By the way, please tell us what kind of story it is. Why don’t I know anything about her?
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Not in real time, but with an update several times a day (depends on the number of satellites in orbit). If everything works perfectly.

                        The system has never been deployed and has not surpassed the stage of trial operation.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        By the way, the first satellite shot down by an air-launched missile is the 85th year.

                        Fundamentally, yes, it was ASAT that put an end to the Legend. It became clear that she was vulnerable.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        steering wheels to the biggest spot.

                        That's right, but where this "spot" is, the signature of the spot, the speed, the course was given by the Legend. It's like that.
                        This was enough to destroy any AUG.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        And this is AB or a tanker - how it goes.

                        This is naive. Already the technology of the 60s could well select targets. Don't be stupid. "Put the cruiser on target" as suggested by some striped admiral would not work ...
                        Quote: Octopus
                        If the striking forces are somewhere near the AB, but beyond visibility, then the system could at some point give a direction where to launch the volley, and rely on the Granitov GOS

                        GOS Granitov just implemented an attack scheme with elements of AI and inter-board exchange - "swarm tactics". I do not want to dwell on this, because this is not a topic of conversation and is voluminous. What is "swarm behavior" can be found in the internet.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        Of course, this could only work if the Soviet side attacked.

                        Are these your independent tactical studies? Are you the new Admiral Fisher or Gorshkov? lol The legend was not adopted. The USSR did not intend to wage a preventive war; this was contrary to the ideology of the state.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        When were the exercises held? What drowned?

                        Do you ask these questions seriously? No.
                        Quote: Octopus
                        The number of Legend satellites changed, how many of them worked at a particular moment is unknown.

                        I repeat, the system was not adopted for service and was at the development stage.
                        Modern systems are also at the development stage. And when they say that there are only 2 vehicles in orbit, people don’t understand that this is the development of flight instances, no more. Of course, we have plans for a war, but not tomorrow.
                      10. Octopus
                        Octopus 31 December 2019 00: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        to point a specific swarm of CD to a specific square

                        That's it. The system, when working perfectly, provided a square where the AUG could be located outside the radio horizon of the RCC carrier. With a volley on this square, there was a chance that the GOS would pick up targets, including AB. An unknown probability, it is possible that there is a very low probability if the enemy is capable of electronic warfare and camouflage.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        The main thing, in the tactical understanding of the task, is the opening of the KUG-AUG order.

                        "Library of signatures" does not mean that the system can distinguish AB from a tanker or even a Perry retrofitted in electronic warfare. We do not have any data that would allow us to assess the success of target selection, except for the size of the spot.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Who said that AI was located on the space component?

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Yes, the US-A satellite issued data for opening a KUG-AUG order: coordinates, speed, course, type of ship

                        The satellite gave out some processed data, you wrote.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        AUG can't hide

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Why don’t I know anything about her?

                        I think they just forgot. Fleetex-82. Note that 82> 78.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        but where this "spot" is, the signature of the spot, the speed, the course was given by the Legend.

                        Theoretically possible.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        This was enough to destroy any AUG.

                        No.
                        There is no information in the system that the spot is an aircraft carrier. The system gives a certain probabilistic picture, updated with a relatively small frequency. Grandfather says they predicted the landing of the British, not saw her. The system does not equalize continuous AUG reconnaissance at AWACS and KAG on periodically passing satellites. The enemy’s countermeasures have not been considered in any way.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Already the technology of the 60s could well select targets.

                        Could in case the goals are not hidden.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        attack scheme with AI elements

                        Again this is your AI. Steering wheels on the biggest spot - this is not AI.
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        Do you ask these questions seriously?

                        Naturally. If the dida can say something, then it’s declassified. If they can’t, what are we discussing at all, the work of GlavPUR?
                        Quote: Mityai65
                        the system was not adopted for service and was at the development stage.

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        The legend was not adopted

                        Quote: Mityai65
                        The system has never been deployed.

                        What then is the bazaar station?
                      11. Mityay65
                        Mityay65 31 December 2019 09: 42
                        -1
                        Bazaar-station that a similar Liana system is being deployed now. I wonder how you said "eye of Sauron"? lol
                        In any case, be that as it may with the local war heaters, I hope that there will be no war next year. fellow
                        Congratulations on the coming, and I wish you and your family happiness in the New Year! love
                      12. IL-NAVY
                        IL-NAVY 31 December 2019 23: 20
                        +1
                        where could the AUG be
                        A mark from a certain surface target. About this scale.
                        Is it AVM? Question.
                      13. IL-NAVY
                        IL-NAVY 31 December 2019 23: 15
                        +1
                        what is this story. Why don’t I know anything about her?
                        82 and 83. There is enough information.
                        V.A. Karev Unknown Soviet 'Pearl Harbor'
                        http://www.38brrzk.ru/public/russia-parl-harbor/
                        Karev. Fliteks-82.
                        http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/Fliteks.1552944776.jpg
                        You can find it in the comments.
                        http://samlib.ru/comment/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/avianosec-1985-86?PAGE=1
                        Or from my classmate Misha Bezlyudov.
                        "I served in the naval missile-carrying aviation, flew on Tu-16 and Tu-22m2 (3) aircraft. The naval missile-carrying aviation (MRA) was intended primarily for striking American aircraft carriers. At present, the MRA has been destroyed and is not an enemy. it was done, and our native reformers.

                        There are very few of those who remember how to launch an attack on an American aircraft carrier, while in my memory, I will tell how it really happened. But I will not talk about tactical techniques, and not about the procedure for forming a missile salvo, but about all sorts of insignificant trifles, which, for some reason, are most memorable. All this happened during the heyday of our Armed Forces, in 1986. We used to think that we had a flourishing, and then it turned out - "stagnation".

                        The modern "Murukan" aircraft carrier was quietly making a planned transition from America to Japan. He walked along a well-known route, surrounded by a pack of warships, along the way he worked out the tasks of combat training. As soon as this vrazhin entered the zone of reach of the Pacific Fleet aviation, we were "alerted". We got used to it for a long time, we didn't get very excited. Everything went on in normal order. But the aircraft carrier decided to play with us.

                        A squadron of warships, led by the URO cruiser, was sent at night to the Laperuz Strait, and a lone aircraft carrier, through the Sangar Strait, reached the Sea of ​​Japan. All our intelligence, and the so-called cosmic, did not see this division. Everyone thought that the carrier strike group (AUG) was the La Perouse Strait, and therefore not particularly twitching. And the main reptile was 100 km south. This we later learned.

                        So that the enemy does not think that he can safely climb near our Sakhalin, they raised a pair of Tu-16 - mark the tracking of the AUG. Tu-22m2 decided not to touch, and with the duration of the flight, compared with the Tu-16, they had a little weakness. Here in this pair I went for departure. Fly to the enemy - 200 km, you can track up to 6 hours, which we did.

                        We were not allowed to go out at night, we were forbidden to go on visual contact at night, so we patrolled in 50 km from a group of surface ships, thinking that we were working on an aircraft carrier. I need to know that my radar sight sees everything on 60 km, so we could not really consider the goals.

                        I must honestly note the excellent tactical reception of the commander of the AUG. So that we do not doubt that AUG is coming, enemy fighters periodically fly around us, who took off from air bases in Japan. It was then that I learned the difference between our and enemy side lights, I understood the difference between pulsed, flashing, and pulsating beacons. As the saying goes, serve a century, learn a century. When the squadron of warships went south, we drove to the base.

                        We landed, told us what they were doing, and there was panic at the headquarters. The captain of the merchant fleet saw an aircraft carrier in the Sangar Strait, immediately reported to the warriors, the naval commanders went crazy. Our Commander urgently flew to our garrison, the regiment was driven into the 'duty forces'. I had to go to sleep in the barrack. While we were sleeping, the aircraft carrier went out into the Sea of ​​Japan, dawn, everyone saw it.

                        It is very difficult to tell in words what was happening in the regiment. The commander yells, the division commander growls, the regiment commander yells, the squadron commander swears, the navigator, headed by the Chief, are making their contribution. In the confusion, they forgot to raise the neighboring regiment on the "Alarm". I swear to you that I just forgot. When they remembered, by the time of the strike appointed by the commander of the Pacific Fleet, they no longer had time to prepare the aircraft. We got out of the way by the fact that the aircraft carrier is close, we won't have time to assemble a division in the air, they say, and the regiment will cope.

                        Prepared for departure, went to blow. First, they released a reconnaissance and strike group (RUG), consisting of two Tu-22m2. They had to reach the target from the other side earlier, give us target designation, strike. My squadron Tu-16, as always, took off earlier than everyone else, landed later than everyone else, flew higher than everyone else, so I could see "everything from above ..." perfectly.

                        The regiment gathered, walked in the clouds, shied away, but moved in the right direction. There was little flight time, but we all had experience, so we worked as it should, at a given time. They dismissed, went in for landing. This is a very interesting picture when a regiment makes a landing at 2-minute intervals. Impressive. Worst of all is the leading Tu-16, which comes after the last "backfire", as the interval is 2 minutes, and the speed modes are different. But, I must say that I was seriously taught flying, and my squadron commander was not, so they went very well.

                        After landing, all the "leaders" with navigators were summoned to the Commander and Chief Navigator. The second part of the strike began ... But if we inflicted a tactical missile strike at the enemy, then they hit us, sparing no ammunition. They took the maps, compared the places of the groups at the time of the strike, which the navigator feverishly inflicted after landing, not all the places agreed with the planned ones. It's okay, but they shouted for a long time. But that was not the main point.

                        During the departure, the air defense forces announced the "Regime" for the planes of our regiment, that is, we violated the order of using the sky. We began to compare applications, routes, tear up dispatchers and navigators. After a while everything cleared up.

                        During the feverish preparations for the departure, the navigator of the reconnaissance and strike group detachment (RUG) made a mistake in recording the coordinates of the route, the navigator of the squadron, during control, did not pay attention to this, so the RUG went along an undeclared route, 200 km to the south.

                        This squad navigator was summoned to the Chief navigator. The general began to yell as soon as he saw Vasya. And immediately revealed the flagrant mistakes in the organization of preparation for the flight. The general announced that the main reason for the incident was that Vasya had a mustache and wore a wedding ring.

                        And rightly so. With such violations, could Vasya have prepared well for the flight in conditions of general panic? And if the navigator of the squadron "did not see" Vasya's mustache and ring, then how could he see errors in the route? Vasya was shaved and the ring was pulled from his finger, the navigator of the squadron "cleared" his sight.

                        The authorities calmed down, flew to Vladik, to report to the Commander of the Pacific Fleet about the perfectly accomplished flight. The violation of the regime was explained by the fact that the RUG, having orientated on the spot, made such a competent decision about the angle of reaching the target that they confused not only the enemy, but also our air defense.

                        One wise pilot-inspector of aviation of the Pacific Fleet summed up the results of the flight: "Why do these" Americans "spend money on the campaigns of aircraft carriers? After all, if they sail to our shores in a boat, then we, in regiments and headquarters, will pass ourselves over in panic. in a crush he will finish off his own command, so as not to share rewards. "
        2. pin_code
          pin_code 30 December 2019 08: 41
          0
          10 aug will come out at the same price, if not cheaper. and your 100 leaders can only be made from notebook sheets.
      4. Sergey1987
        Sergey1987 27 December 2019 13: 59
        0
        Quote: Good_Anonymous
        For whom or what will he strike - at AUG? For some reason, it seems that the AUG will eat the Leader (with the Gorshkovs) and will not choke.

        It depends on how many Leaders AUG will oppose.
    2. DRM
      DRM 26 December 2019 20: 54
      +3
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The leader is the strike ship, in fact, the reincarnation of the battlecruiser. What can he have in common with this frigate?

      In common - there really is nothing. The Dutchman is, but the Leader is not.
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 20: 56
      0
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      The leader is the strike ship, in fact, the reincarnation of the battlecruiser.

      why do we need battleships? .. and drown on the first mile of minesweepers
    4. Santa Fe
      26 December 2019 21: 08
      0
      The leader is the strike ship, in fact, the reincarnation of the battlecruiser.

      How does he ultimately differ from De Zeven

      The Dutchman has UVP for all types of missiles, from Tomahawk to LRASM.

      Battle cruiser)))
  5. Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 26 December 2019 18: 47
    +3
    Interesting article and easy to read. But about the problem of destroyers ... They are not only designed to provide missile defense / air defense of a group of ships. They should also have shock capabilities, being carriers of anti-ship missiles. But the questions of air defense / anti-aircraft defense were closest to frigates. Therefore, the planned 15 thousand tons of Lider's displacement will have to be divided into anti-ship missiles in addition to missile defense / air defense. Surely it will be "Zircon".
    And the second thing. A modern EV is unthinkable without a helicopter. This is the control center and the remote search for submarines leaving the search bar of the KPUG ... And these are all volumes, weights and areas. Considering that our computers are "the largest in the world" we have DMZ ships under 8-10 thousand tons. And the placement of an overheated S-500 will pull all 15 Kt. Our manufacturers cannot improve the weight and overall characteristics of the wearable weapon. Hence the displacement is.
    The article is uniquely "+".
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 26 December 2019 19: 06
      -1
      Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
      Given that our computers

      I will disappoint you .. the staffs of the US military are the same, or even heavier .. or do you think they and we have a PS-based BIOS? Amy's screening and duplication has not been canceled. Neither among them, nor ours.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 26 December 2019 19: 16
        +9
        Quote: dvina71
        Neither among them, nor ours.

        I will disappoint you. On the aircraft carrier "Kiev" there was equipment for determining the location in space, which consisted of 7 cabinets ... Then they brought an American device into the navigator's cabin (Magnevox, if sclerosis does not lie!) - in the size of a portable TLV "Youth". So much for you from Jenibekov (he flew then!)
        Much has changed, but there is a lag. Remember our misadventures with ship AFAR ... And you tell me about EMR.
        1. Astronaut
          Astronaut 26 December 2019 20: 27
          -1
          Grandma remembered when she was a girl laughing
        2. Svarog51
          Svarog51 26 December 2019 20: 44
          +8
          Alexander hi A classmate of VVMURE graduated and served at the Black Sea Fleet on the Bassoon, in the mid-80s, sonar. He also talked about cabinets, about a tube amplifier. Now how are you? Powerful semiconductors also require cooling. Well, if the receiver, but the transmitter? There is no radiator in any way, but this is the size and refrigerant.
          1. IL-NAVY
            IL-NAVY 1 January 2020 11: 12
            +1
            And how did he get into the GA after Popov? Have you gotten to the Matros? laughing
            And there are a lot of blocks, really.

        3. dvina71
          dvina71 26 December 2019 23: 07
          0
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

          I will disappoint you

          Not ... not disappointed. Magnavox is an American manufacturer of electronics and electromechanics .. Without a nomenclature, your report is nothing. But ..logically .. There is a serious lag in military electronics. First of all, it will manifest itself for a long time in aviation and space, as being very limited by space and weight. If you are right, then, with comparable characteristics, Soviet planes and aircrafts should have exceeded American counterparts in size and weight and dimensions. But factology says that Buran, in the same dimensions, flew into orbit by himself and sat down .. Although .. you are free to assume that he flew like that because he was clogged with cabinets with equipment ...
          1. IL-NAVY
            IL-NAVY 1 January 2020 11: 19
            +1
            First of all, it will manifest itself for a long time in aviation and space, as being very limited by space and weight.
            This is me on a flight to St. Petersburg, we are driving a plane to ARZ. I bought it 15 years ago ... and in the coffin I saw domestic industry. The yellow one is hanging. little.

    2. Santa Fe
      26 December 2019 21: 14
      +1
      placement of the soaked S-500 will pull on all 15 Kt.

      It turns out the marine version is 10 times heavier than the land

      All elements of the S-300, S-400, and probably the S-500 (is it movable?) Are placed on multi-axle automobile (tracked) chassis

      Where is the joke about 15 Kt

      About the PLO helicopter - De Zeven has it, the Danish version has even two Emnip
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 26 December 2019 21: 28
        +2
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Where is the joke about 15 Kt

        Such a displacement was assumed for EMs with nuclear power plants. For a destroyer with a non-nuclear powerplant, a figure of 8-10 thousand tons appeared. When installing the S-500 will need a powerful radar DVO. And it will also pull weights and volumes. There is a variant of electric movement (diesel-EG-HED on superconductivity), and if necessary, give PX - connect the GTZA to the screw through the ШПМ. Although, the scheme of the power plant can be completely different.
        1. alstr
          alstr 27 December 2019 10: 11
          +1
          About the weight.
          The weight of the antenna of the command post of the division is 3 tons.
          The weight of the entire command post with the machine is about 20 tons.
          The weight of the rocket is about 2 tons.
          In principle, all the cars fit into this weight. The only thing that weighed more was a tower - about 40 tons.
          And this is information at the beginning of the 90s. Today, all this weighs lighter by reducing the weight of calculators (they also weighed several tons).

          So we consider that approximately for an air defense system for a ship with a set of 48 SAM missiles and a set of equipment it will weigh 150-200 tons (depending on).
        2. gunnerminer
          gunnerminer 27 December 2019 11: 42
          -1
          -derived antenna all over the nose and developed side antennas. -

          Impossible. Even the diesel engines for RTOs cannot be made by modern Kingisepp plant only the first seven are trying to put into production. Regarding the choice of power plant schemes, the choice of Russian shipbuilders is very meager.
  6. Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 19: 30
    +2
    I support the respected Oleg Kaptsov, monsters are not needed, but the fleet can have several different NKs no more than a frigate to ensure the exit of nuclear submarines
    1. Mityay65
      Mityay65 26 December 2019 20: 17
      0
      Quote: vladimir1155
      have a few diverse NKs no larger than a frigate

      And why not a single multi-purpose air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense ship - a frigate? I think, but not completely surethat you can put everything in one case if you get rid of striking weapons.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 20: 50
        +3
        the larger the ship, the more expensive its construction maintenance is the choice of shipyards. The ship's seaworthiness of 3500 tons is already unlimited and, as a rule, there is air defense there, this is frigate 11356, and the permeability of GDP for transfer between the seas is limited to about 800 tons. this is Karakurt
      2. Doctor
        Doctor 26 December 2019 20: 55
        -3
        And why not a single multi-purpose air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense ship - a frigate? I think, but I’m not completely sure that you can put everything in one case if you get rid of striking weapons.


        If he will be weaker than Burkov, then they will drive him. Such a multipurpose is needed so that everything except AUG is written in boiling water when it appears. So you need to put in it the maximum of shock, air defense, PLO, ASG, etc. Plus 2-4 helicopters, a mini-submarine, an anti-mine complex, perhaps a mini-deck for large drones. This displacement of 20, seaworthiness and autonomy will follow.
        In short, the concept of a Scharnhorst-type raider, implemented in modern RRC type 1144. There are already problems for this now.
        How it might look read here:
        1. Octopus
          Octopus 26 December 2019 22: 38
          +4
          Quote: Arzt
          Such a multipurpose is needed so that everything except AUG is written in boiling water when it appears. So you need to put a maximum in it

          Quote: Arzt
          like Scharnhorst

          Yamato, you wanted to say?
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 26 December 2019 22: 45
            -1
            Yamato, you wanted to say?


            A ship equivalent to two Arly Burkes.
      3. Santa Fe
        26 December 2019 21: 17
        +1
        The Dutch fit all the weapons - air defense / missile defense / anti-aircraft defense + artillery, helicopter boats

        UVP design allows placement of Tomahawks and LRASM PCR
  7. swzero
    swzero 26 December 2019 19: 42
    +2
    A displacement of 10-20 tons is needed to accommodate a nuclear power plant. She gives the ship a completely different opportunity, especially given the problems of basing. We do not have bases around the world and in the Arctic they also do not. And the AUG in the ocean cannot be escorted without a nuclear power plant; to look for boats at a distance from the bases too. And the helicopters will not interfere with the ship both for fighting the submarine and for reconnaissance and target designation. Those. at least 3 helicopters - two anti-submarine, 1 drill.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 20: 52
      0
      Quote: swzero
      We do not have bases around the world and in the Arctic they also do not. And the AUG in the ocean cannot be escorted without a nuclear power plant; to look for boats at a distance from the bases too.

      why is that all? for what purpose, and by what means?
      1. swzero
        swzero 26 December 2019 21: 11
        0
        unhealthy movements are now beginning in the Arctic. One won’t be able to defend one’s interests in this region - not having a fleet there. Again, countering AUG is necessary. Some submarines can not do here. Again, SSBNs need to be covered not only at the exit from the bases. It is necessary to control the areas in which they patrol and from which they can use their weapons. And here it is not a fact that ships with limited autonomy will be able to perform this task. The question also arises - if we consider the main function of the air defense frigate - how to deal with long-range air defense systems, it will not be possible to shove the S-400 and S-500 into such a displacement. The actual displacement of the leader was dictated by incl. the presence of the mentioned complexes. It is the S-400 that is owned and in the long run the S-500 can fight with enemy aircraft. Complexes of medium and short range are more anti-PKR means; there is no need for the aircraft to enter their destruction zone to use missiles. So normal air defense within the frigate cannot be provided.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 26 December 2019 23: 22
          0
          Firstly, there are icebreakers for the specifics of the Arctic, secondly, ground-based airfields can be made there, thirdly, they don’t go to AB in the climate there, you can also place a frigate with 400, just remove the PKR from it, you get an air defense frigate
          1. swzero
            swzero 27 December 2019 09: 43
            0
            too big a tvd with difficult climatic conditions. The construction of a network of airfields there and their maintenance will cost a pretty penny. It’s easier to have 1 aircraft carrier. There was a need, put forward in a boring point. And all the time to maintain a network of existing airfields with staff is much more expensive. As for the ice situation, the problem is that the ice is retreating due to warming - that’s it. As for the S-400 and S-500 in the size of the pot, it is doubtful. There are also a bunch of specialized radars, ammunition again needed more. For some reason, even now and in the union, they didn’t put them on the modern and pottery-only on larger ships. Probably for good reason?
    2. Santa Fe
      26 December 2019 21: 23
      +4
      A displacement of 10-20 tons is needed to accommodate a nuclear power plant.

      Thank you for your expert opinion.

      But there is a fact - the smallest atomic submarines (French Ruby) are smaller in size than the Warsaw

      Also, one can recall the atomic leaders of the destroyers (URA cruiser) from across the ocean. Bainbridge, Trakstan, later California

      The first two did not differ much in size from their non-nuclear versions, despite all the imperfections of the reactors of the 60s.
      1. swzero
        swzero 26 December 2019 21: 34
        +1
        In addition to nuclear power plants, the size of the leader is dictated by long-range air defense systems, which greatly expand the capabilities of this very air defense for which the author advocates. Secondly, in addition to the size where you can push the nuclear power plant, you need to be aware of its cost. I think the cost of the NPP itself and its operation makes it unreasonable to use it in small vessels of mass construction. World practice confirms this. Do not put nuclear power plants in large numbers on small ships. For the cost of its installation, operation and disposal will be inadequate to the cost of the ship itself. Well, I think there are problems with the maintenance and production of a large number of nuclear power plants at the moment. Therefore, as a rule, it is not used on surface ships of less than 10 tons, at least in large quantities. PL is a separate song - there simply is no alternative to nuclear power plants, if we are talking about ocean boats. So IMHO leaders are needed both as separate independent units and to give stability to the same frigates due to the presence of long-range air defense
        1. Santa Fe
          26 December 2019 21: 55
          +2
          In addition to nuclear power plants, the size of the leader is dictated by long-range air defense systems for which the author advocates.

          Did this somehow greatly affect the size of the Dutch frigate?
          World practice confirms this.

          And in what way

          8 out of 9 US nuclear cruisers had a displacement of less than 12 Kt. That is, they were no different from non-nuclear counterparts
          Do not put nuclear power plants in large numbers on small ships.

          The most popular class of ships with nuclear weapons - nuclear submarines

          500+ around the world have stuck, many of them have a surface displacement of more than 6-8 thousand tons?
          1. swzero
            swzero 27 December 2019 09: 34
            0
            and in the Dutch frigate there is air defense with a range of 400 km? A total of 8 surface ships with nuclear power plants in the US Navy class EM and cruiser. And not a single frigate class. Although for escorting an aircraft carrier with a nuclear power plant, it was precisely these ships that were asking. Apparently, even the United States, with its budget, cannot afford to let themselves go on the massive construction of such ships. The same goes for icebreakers. All nuclear-powered icebreakers are large ships and also essentially piece goods. As for the pl-once again I repeat this is a separate conversation. If we are talking about massive submarines - then the smallest of them - Los Angeles, pike and their descendants - are quite large ships. Well, speaking of submarines, they carry less equipment and crew, under worse living conditions. Ashen has twice as much displacement than the pot, the crew is half as much. Sharks had a crew like a frigate and habitability is not worse, but the size?
  8. Observer2014
    Observer2014 26 December 2019 19: 57
    +2
    "Flying Dutchman" setting the standard for the destroyer "Leader"
    laughing good Editorial five points! For the creativity of the next quarter of submitting material about the "future destroyerLider" wink
  9. Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 26 December 2019 21: 15
    -2
    The leader as an air defense system will need a marine S-500 with a range of at least 500 km, and the ability to work on satellites in low Earth orbit.
    1. 75 Sergey
      75 Sergey 26 December 2019 22: 21
      -1
      A 1000 km. will be even better.
      How many missiles will he be able to intercept, and then what?
      1. swzero
        swzero 27 December 2019 09: 39
        +1
        The task of long-range air defense is to fight with DRO aircraft and strike aircraft before reaching the line of attack. You don’t need a lot of missiles for this, but when you are bombarded with rockets, launching them from a safe distance at the target designation of the aircraft, there’s no ammunition.
  10. Robertocalos
    Robertocalos 26 December 2019 21: 27
    -1
    All right. The main task of a modern full-fledged warship is to protect yourself, your beloved.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 26 December 2019 23: 56
      -2
      All right. The main task of a modern full-fledged warship is to protect yourself, your beloved.


      Already, there are tasks for multi-purpose first-ranking.
      Here for a start.

      1. In the Bay of Biscay, an emergency situation occurred with the Losharik AGS. Despite the excitement over 8 points, the RRC "Admiral Fyodor Ushakov" arrived at the scene of the accident and carried out successful rescue operations. The frigate of the Netherlands Navy "De Zeven Provincien", arrived at the work area a day later, congratulated the Russian sailors on the successful completion of the mission.

      2. A caravan of Russian transports led by the "Arctic Sea" successfully delivered a cargo of timber to the Syrian port of Tartus. The commander of the group of marines from the RRC "Admiral Fyodor Ushakov", which was escorting the caravan, conveyed sea greetings to the crew of the Israeli frigate of the "De Zeven Provincien" class, which was observing the escort from a distance of 2 miles.

      3. The pipe-laying ship “Akademik Chersky” finished laying the pipes of the SP-2 and departed for the home port. The representative of the Gazprom company, who supervised the completion of the work from the board of the Admiral Fyodor Ushakov RRC, said at a press conference that he did not notice any provocations from the frigate brigade of the Netherlands Navy of the De Zeven Provincien type, which were on the border of the visibility of the work zone ...
    2. Doctor
      Doctor 26 December 2019 23: 58
      -1
      All right. The main task of a modern full-fledged warship is to protect yourself, your beloved.


      Still.

      4. The New York Times reports that according to a knowledgeable source in the Pentagon, Donald Trump canceled his decision to launch a series of missile attacks by the coalition forces on government targets in Syria, after receiving data from the UAV frigate "De Zeven Provincien" about the appearance in the Limassol area RRC "Admiral Fyodor Ushakov". Further consultations with Coalition partners are under way.

      5. The Committee of the Senate of the United States Congress on Foreign Affairs approved a package of restrictive measures against Turkey related to the acquisition of Russian S-500 anti-aircraft missile systems. As reported by The Wall Street Journal, Erdogan made this hasty decision under the influence of an impressive demonstration of the operation of the complex, which he observed together with Russian President Vladimir Putin directly from the board of the Admiral Fyodor Ushakov RRC. The publication also reports on the protest of the Netherlands in connection with the incident with the helicopter of the Navy frigate during the operation of the complex. “Such unsafe and unprofessional interceptions in the air have the potential to cause serious harm and bodily harm to all crews involved. We express our protest to the Russian government in connection with the incident, "said the commander of the frigate De Zeven Provincien.

      6. The official representative of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Maria Zakharova today announced the release of the hostages by the pirates of the "Somali State" from the yacht Eclipse ("Eclipse"), owned by a famous Russian businessman. "The decision to release the hostages without any conditions was made after the missile strike by the Admiral Fyodor Ushakov on the infrastructure of the pirate base," the message says. The commander of the Dutch Navy frigate "De Zeven Provincien", who watched the launch of the "Caliber", considers such actions excessive. However, one of the hostages, the famous socialite Ksenia S., does not agree with him. “They are all scary and rude there, they deserve it,” she said.
      1. Robertocalos
        Robertocalos 27 December 2019 04: 22
        -1
        Behold at the root. The decision-making leaders of the PY live in a fantasy world. The cart is ahead of the horse. No abstract "Leader" can replace real diplomacy. With a clear and consistent attitude and, most importantly, a reaction.
        1. Santa Fe
          30 December 2019 06: 02
          0
          The decision-makers of the Republic of Poland live in a fantasy world

          What?

          Roberto Carlos is apparently smarter than the people who have ruled the 20 millionth country for 140+ years. Who have achieved EVERYTHING in this life, can afford any pleasure. And most importantly, they were able to save all the achievements and safely pass them on to children

          They do everything right.
  11. 75 Sergey
    75 Sergey 26 December 2019 22: 20
    -1
    You need to dance from the stove, i.e. from the fulfillment of the tasks set, there are no specialists calculating everything as in the USSR now, and they shy away from one extreme to another.
    1. Robertocalos
      Robertocalos 27 December 2019 04: 28
      +1
      In the USSR, the "specialists" calculated that the remnants of the "calculated" fleet are still rotting at the quay walls. And modern dreamers are again looking for impossible tasks.
  12. ABM
    ABM 26 December 2019 22: 51
    0
    Quote: vladimir1155
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    The leader is the strike ship, in fact, the reincarnation of the battlecruiser.

    why do we need battleships? .. and drown on the first mile of minesweepers


    so there are no directors of mines, and mines themselves!
  13. Alien From
    Alien From 26 December 2019 23: 08
    0
    Thanks to the author, an interesting article. In some places, the author uses very interesting metaphors.
    1. Santa Fe
      27 December 2019 04: 35
      0
      Thank you for your feedback! hi
  14. Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 26 December 2019 23: 38
    -1
    what the Leader will be is still unknown, but in theory it can be assumed that he will be the backbone of the strike groups of the ships
    1. Robertocalos
      Robertocalos 27 December 2019 04: 32
      -1
      Yeah. "Leader", "Surf" and "Karakurt". All have already been defeated, or is the enemy still moving?
  15. malyvalv
    malyvalv 27 December 2019 05: 03
    -1
    The best air defense is Zircons flying into the decks of AUG ships and runways of ground airfields.
  16. monster
    monster 27 December 2019 19: 33
    0
    Everyone who brought the Russian fleet to the pen awaits the eighth circle of Hell. And the steward there is none other than PETER 1 !!! My sincere and deepest condolences, Judas. For the fleet, EMPEROR, you will have soooo that Satan will open his mouth in surprise.
  17. Polar Bear
    Polar Bear 28 December 2019 11: 36
    0
    All kinds of karakurts there are completely powerless against submarines and aircraft and can act only on their shores, and at the maritime theater, where it becomes necessary to have a flag, they have nothing to do. In general, it is almost a waste of money.
    1. agond
      agond 3 January 2020 16: 46
      0
      AUG can be found from cheap disposable "satellites" launched without entering orbit, but on high flight trajectories over the ocean, it will take ten minutes to rise and a dozen to descend, during this time you can examine the entire ocean, find what is needed and transfer images. it would be possible to monitor the AUG with a micro UAV, if a screw styling powered by isotopes is put on it, although it will fly slowly, it may lag behind.
      1. agond
        agond 3 January 2020 22: 41
        0
        And about tracking the oceans, if you set a target, the UAV could be very small at long range, an abstract example, a bird from the sandpiper family, a small godwit with a take-off weight of 320 g plus a micromighthouse made a non-stop flight 11,7 thousand km from Alaska to the Hawaiian Islands in 9 days, with an average speed of 54 km / h, and lost 55%, that is, if he wanted to, he could fly for AUG for a week and figs who would find him, but since you’re not calling the godwits do UAVs with its parameters,
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