Military Review

The combat capabilities of the new Chinese aircraft carrier Shandong

72

Shandong Aircraft Carrier


December 17, 2019 fleet China included the second aircraft carrier, named "Shandong." The new ship became the second for China. According to this indicator, the naval forces of the PRC have already bypassed the Russian fleet. At the same time, both the first and second Chinese aircraft carriers are still the development of more Soviet projects. In particular, the heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser of project 1143.6 Varyag, the closest relative to the only Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov of project 1143.5. The latter, unfortunately, is most famous for his victories over naval infrastructure and the Russian budget.

On the way to the first aircraft carriers


The first Chinese aircraft carrier received the name "Liaoning", it was introduced to the PLA Navy in September 2012. The ship was a completed Varyag aircraft carrier, which China acquired from Ukraine for $ 25 million, and approximately $ 5 million was spent by Beijing on towing the ship from Nikolaev to Dalian. Structurally, the first Chinese aircraft carrier is as close as possible to the Admiral Kuznetsov of the same type, the main differences are associated only with the use of electronic weapons and Chinese-made combat systems.

The second Chinese aircraft carrier to enter service under the name Shandong is still close in design to the Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers of Project 1143 Krechet. Externally, the ships are very similar, while the Chinese version is slightly longer, and its total displacement is greater than that of the “Admiral Kuznetsov”. The new aircraft carrier “Shandong” received an updated composition of electronic weapons, including a radar with AFAR, a new form of the superstructure and an enlarged air group. It is believed that both ships were built in China by the design kit for aircraft carrier 1143.6, which Beijing acquired from Nevskoye Design Bureau joint-stock company back in the 1990s. According to the bmpd blog, the cost of this transaction for the purchase of technical documentation for project 1143.6 amounted to only 840 thousand dollars.


The first Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning

The first Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning is a Varyag aircraft carrier built in China. China purchased a ship from Ukraine at the stage of technical readiness about 70 percent. The purchase took place in 1998, but the ship reached the shipyard in Dalian only on March 3, 2002, and the completion and testing process took 10 years. The ship was finally accepted into the fleet only in September 2012. The second Chinese aircraft carrier, Shandong, was built faster. The first work on the construction of the ship began in November 2013, the construction of the hull in the dry dock - March 2015, the launch - April 25, 2017, the commissioning of the fleet - December 17, 2019. The next Chinese aircraft carrier, known so far as the “Type 003” project, should become a new generation ship. It is reported that ships of this type will get rid of the springboard on the take-off deck, will receive an electromagnetic catapult and the ability to launch heavier and more advanced aircraft, including fifth-generation multi-role fighters Chengdu J-20.

Thanks to the acquisition of virtually unfinished aircraft carrier in Ukraine and technical documentation in Russia, China quickly turned into a country that is able to build large aircraft carriers and carrier-based fighter aircraft for them. In the shortest possible time, China became the fifth country in the world that is able to independently build an aircraft carrier designed to accommodate aircraft not of vertical, but of ordinary take-off and landing. Thanks to access to Soviet-era technologies, Beijing has already received two combat-ready aircraft carriers, and by the mid-2020s, the PLA fleet should be replenished with an aircraft carrier with an electromagnetic catapult and a displacement of about 80 thousand tons. At the same time, it is possible that without resorting to the Soviet technologies that Beijing got almost for nothing after the collapse of the USSR, China still could not even get close to the ships of the Admiral Kuznetsov level.

The combat capabilities of the aircraft carrier "Shandong"


Despite rethinking Soviet developments, the Chinese Shandong still cannot hide its relationship with the Admiral Kuznetsov and other ships of a similar project. This external resemblance cannot be hidden anywhere, while the main changes affected the internal structure and the equipment installed on the ship. Unlike Liaoning and Kuznetsov, the new Chinese aircraft carrier has grown slightly in size. The maximum length of the ship reached 315 meters, width - 75 meters, and the total displacement increased to 70 thousand tons. For comparison, the total displacement of Admiral Kuznetsov is about 60 thousand tons. At the same time, a more compact "island" appeared on the "Shandong", which allowed to increase the useful area of ​​the ship's deck. The maximum speed of the new Chinese aircraft carrier is 31 knots (about 57 km / h).


Shandong's newest Chinese aircraft carrier at sea

A common feature for Liaoning, Shandong, and Admiral Kuznetsov is still a massive nasal springboard. Such a design on board an aircraft carrier has both obvious advantages and disadvantages. The advantages of this design include its simplicity and cheapness, the disadvantages are the inability to use heavy aircraft on board the ship, the springboard imposes restrictions on the load of take-off aircraft. The future Chinese aircraft carrier of the Type 003 project, which is supposed to be part of the PLA Navy by 2025, will receive an electromagnetic catapult, as on American-made aircraft carriers. At the same time, some Western experts doubt that Chinese designers have competencies in this technology. Whether it is so or not, we will be able to find out in the near future.

Even at the stage of completing the aircraft carrier "Liaoning", the Chinese abandoned the Soviet concept, which assumed the deployment of powerful offensive weapons on board aircraft-carrying cruisers. Both Chinese ships are full-fledged aircraft carriers, which carry only defensive weapons to repel air attacks. Both ships are intended to operate as part of aircraft carrier strike groups, where escort ships are responsible for their reliable anti-submarine and air defense. Fortunately, the Chinese industry makes it possible to build modern frigates and corvettes in commercial quantities, launching dozens of warships a year. At the same time, the rejection of offensive missile weapons allowed Chinese designers to expand aircraft carrier capabilities by concentrating more fuel on board, aviation ammunition and the aircraft themselves, which are the main striking force of the ship.


ZAK Type 1130 fires

If on board the first Chinese aircraft carrier “Liaoning” it was possible to place up to 24 Shenyang J-15 aircraft, then on board the second aircraft carrier “Shandong” their number could be increased to 36 units. In addition to multipurpose carrier-based fighter aircraft, various helicopters can be based on the aircraft carrier, including projects Z-9 and Z-18. It is worth noting that the J-15 carrier-based fighter itself is an unlicensed copy of the domestic Su-33. Aircraft have an almost completely identical glider. Back in 2001, China acquired one of the prototypes of the Su-33 carrier-based fighter from Ukraine, having finished work on its own prototype only in 2010. The aircraft has a maximum speed of up to 2500 km / h and is equipped with 12 weapons suspension points. The maximum combat load is estimated at 6 tons, while Western experts believe that when fully refueling using a springboard, an aircraft can carry no more than two tons of ammunition. In turn, according to the statements of the Chinese side, the combat load of the aircraft is comparable to the American F / A-18 fighter. The main anti-ship weapons J-15 fighters are anti-ship missiles YJ-91 with a flight range of 50-120 km (warhead mass - 165 kg) and YJ-62 with a flight range of up to 400 km (warhead mass - 300 kg).

The defensive armament of the Shandong aircraft carrier is represented by three Type 1130 anti-aircraft artillery systems. Each such complex is a 30-mm automatic artillery system with 11 barrels, which makes it one of the deadliest and fastest in its class. The rate of fire of such a setup reaches 10 thousand rounds per minute. According to the assurances of the Chinese side, the installation allows you to hit anti-ship missiles flying at speeds up to 4 Machs, with a probability of 96 percent. The height of hitting targets is up to 2,5 kilometers, the interception range is up to 3,5 kilometers. Also, the composition of the aircraft carrier’s armament is represented by three short-range anti-aircraft missile systems HQ-10. Each such installation is designed to accommodate 18 short-range missiles with a range of destruction of targets at a distance of up to 9 km.


HQ-10 missile launch

Commissioning of the second aircraft carrier expanded the combat capabilities of the PLA Navy


The commissioning of the second aircraft carrier "Shandong" has expanded the combat capabilities of the PLA Navy. It is worth noting that in December 2019, China became only the third country in the world, after the United States and Great Britain, which is able to exhibit two carrier groups in the oceans. The presence of two aircraft carriers, the first of which was initially positioned as experimental and training, but within a few years after commissioning it turned into a full-fledged warship, expanding the capabilities of the Chinese fleet, making the strategy of its application more flexible.

In addition to the fact that China has entered the top three countries that can simultaneously operate with two carrier strike groups, Chinese admirals can always send one of the ships for repair or modernization. While one ship will be under repair, the second will continue to serve. At present, the Russian fleet is deprived of such an opportunity. The only Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, most likely, will return to service no earlier than 2022, and this with the most favorable options. In the worst case, repairs after a major fire that occurred aboard the Kuznetsov on December 12, 2019 will be postponed indefinitely.


Shandong Aircraft Carrier

The presence of two aircraft-carrying ships relieves the Chinese fleet of the problems that the Russian fleet is experiencing today. Russian admirals cannot refuse the only aircraft carrier, since the laying of a new aircraft carrier is planned no earlier than 2030. All this time, Russian military pilots of naval aviation regiments need to train somewhere, working with the ground training simulator NITKA is not enough. For China, the presence of two aircraft carriers ready to go to sea is very important in terms of the continuous training of carrier-based pilots. Chinese industry and engineers gained experience in the design and construction of large aircraft carriers, and the fleet gained the opportunity to train deck aviation pilots and work out ways to use aircraft carrier groups. These are, perhaps, the main dividends that the PLA Navy is extracting from the operation and rethinking of the Soviet design heritage.
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor 23 December 2019 06: 34
    +4
    The most difficult thing is to land the aircraft on an aircraft carrier. Here, the Chinese have literally unlimited possibilities for combat training, unlike the Russians, unfortunately! A big plus, I see in more comfortable weather conditions in the seas washing China, which allows us to expand the range of combat training in China's AUG!
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 23 December 2019 06: 54
      +3
      aircraft carrier design documentation

      "Varangian", which China acquired from Ukraine for 25 million

      Su-33 fighter also in Ukraine

      Picked up on two aircraft carriers!
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 23 December 2019 09: 26
        +10
        The third is under construction. At that pace, a corps will be formed in 2020.

        In addition, the second UDC was assembled - in less than a year (8 DKVD 071 projects were built on this site, and it was lowered in March).

        Well, the head in completion
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 23 December 2019 10: 19
            +5
            Man, I'm afraid from your comment, most understood three points ...
            First ...
            The second ...
            And 85000 ... what
            And of course + to you! bully
            Quote: 川 建国
            我们第一批总共计划建造3艘075,1艘已经服役,2艘在建。003航空母舰是搭载电磁弹射的常规动力航母,排水量约85000吨。
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Hunter 2
                Hunter 2 23 December 2019 10: 34
                +5
                Thank you for the honest answer! soldier
                That’s straight. We have a unique dialogue! what drinks
                1. Per se.
                  Per se. 23 December 2019 10: 40
                  +5
                  Quote: Hunter 2
                  Here it’s straight. Our dialogue is unique.
                  Alexey, your comrade replied, "We have very good impressions of Russians in China, and I would like to make friends from Russia." On my own behalf, I will add that in any case, here he needs to print in Russian, especially if he understands everything in it.
                  1. Hunter 2
                    Hunter 2 23 December 2019 10: 51
                    +2
                    Sergei hi I already strained my niece and translated, but thanks anyway! Good luck to you and our Chinese comrade! drinks
                    1. Ingvar 72
                      Ingvar 72 23 December 2019 11: 11
                      +2
                      Quote: Hunter 2
                      I already strained my niece and translated

                      There is a translator in Yandex! wink
                      1. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 23 December 2019 11: 25
                        +3
                        To me from the phone - it was easier to send the niece according to Weiber ... than to insert the text into the translator. wink
                      2. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 23 December 2019 11: 28
                        +2
                        Yes. There are certain problems with copying text on the phone. I often swear out loud.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                      1. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 23 December 2019 13: 01
                        +3
                        Quote: 川 建国
                        你 侄女 会 中文 吗 , 很棒! Great Where did she learn Chinese?

                        Niece has been teaching Chinese since she was 5! Specially took Nanny owning Chinese. Then she became an incoming teacher. Now the Niece is 20 years old. I have been to China many times, for a month or more. I have been to China 12 times! hi Alex.
                        PS Congratulations on the assignment of the Rank - Petty Officer! soldier
                2. novel66
                  novel66 23 December 2019 11: 59
                  +3
                  Hi Lesha! hi straight, reminded
                  1. Hunter 2
                    Hunter 2 23 December 2019 12: 37
                    0
                    Yes, Romych - without your sparkling humor, it would be boring! good
                    1. novel66
                      novel66 23 December 2019 13: 11
                      +2
                      no, but what? one to one lol
            2. Sergey_G_M
              Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 10: 44
              +3
              Well, no, the friend of the Russian keyboard apparently, I used the translator almost everything is clear.
              In total, we plan to build 3 vessels, 075 of which is already in operation and 1 are under construction. The aircraft carrier 2 is a conventional aircraft carrier with an electromagnetic catapult and a displacement of about 003 tons.
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 23 December 2019 11: 13
                +3
                Quote: Sergey_G_M
                Well, no friend of the Russian keyboard apparently

                You can score in your own Chinese, translate into Russian, copy and paste the translation. request
          2. Meliodous
            Meliodous 23 December 2019 10: 39
            +1
            Well, good luck with this construction. good
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. Dante Alighieri
          Dante Alighieri 23 December 2019 11: 14
          +1
          And I do not like the 075, they do not have a formidable aesthetics, combined with the minimalism that the Uosps have, which, as for me, are the best ships in this class. But 071 is not bad. It blows from him, you know something native. And not surprisingly: the bow seemed to have shifted from frigate 11356, and the extensive take-off deck at the stern, evokes the memory of the valiant cruisers of 1123 for decades serving faithfully in the Mediterranean. However, maybe I have a banal aggravation of nostalgia ...
          I will argue with the author
          It is worth noting that in December 2019, China became only the third country in the world, after the United States and Great Britain, which is able to exhibit two carrier groups in the oceans.

          Not the third, but the fourth. Back in 2009, Italy acquired two aircraft carriers. Yes, although the projects of Cavour and Garibaldi are not as similar as Liaoning and Shandong, and in general both Italians are more likely to be lightweight representatives of this class, more comparable to the same Wosp than Nimitz, but nevertheless for Italy they are quite aircraft carriers that In addition, unlike the Whosps, they are not limited only to GDP aircraft. If the pasta had something similar to the Su-25UTG, I would have looked with interest at the launch of such a product from the springboard of their aircraft carrier. Spout spout how deceitful are you laughing
          1. Sergey_G_M
            Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 11: 31
            0
            It blows from him, you know something native. And not surprisingly: the bow seemed to have shifted from frigate 11356, and the extensive take-off deck at the stern, evokes the memory of the valiant cruisers of 1123 for decades serving faithfully in the Mediterranean. However, maybe I have a banal aggravation of nostalgia ...

            Perhaps not only nostalgia. There is an article affecting the impact on the perception of ship design.
            http://www.vokrugsveta.ru/telegraph/technics/460/
            From this article:
            Herbert Meyer and John Roach concluded that "the appearance of Soviet warships was a deliberate attempt to maximize the propaganda effect of using the fleet through the use of artistic design style." This acquired special significance based on the authors' conviction that “a warship is an instrument of politics, the main weapon of which is effective conviction. Aesthetic excellence strengthens the credibility of a warship, building confidence in national politics. ”

            1. Sergey_G_M
              Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 11: 43
              +1
              Thus, the California missile cruiser (CGN-1970), which became part of the American fleet in the mid-36s, was distinguished by the predominance of vertical lines of bulky superstructures, which gave the cruiser an exceptionally “massive, static appearance, excluding dynamics and mobility ". At the same time, the Soviet large anti-submarine ship (BOD) “Nikolaev” (project 1134B), which was close in class and time of commissioning, gave the impression of a “fighter preparing for battle.” The cruiser superstructures and hull "showed consistent and focused lines of force."

              From the same article.
          2. donavi49
            donavi49 23 December 2019 11: 43
            +1
            If the pasta had something similar to the Su-25UTG, I would have looked with interest at the launch of such a product from the springboard of their aircraft carrier.


            Not. VTOL from STOBAR (springboard) is critically different not from the springboard itself, but by landing devices. STOBAR aircraft carrier has a system of cables for catching a hook and braking. VTOL (and Italians indicated as well as Juan Carlos for example) - do not have such a system. Therefore, even landing the Su-25UTG will not work safely.
            1. Dante Alighieri
              Dante Alighieri 23 December 2019 17: 16
              0
              VTOL (and Italians indicated as well as Juan Carlos for example) - do not have such a system.

              Tse knows me. So it’s a pity that such a system is dumb. For such a ship, our attack aircraft would be just right, at least in size, at least for the tasks facing this aircraft carrier. And all these Hariers, F-35s are all from the evil one: one is morally and conceptually outdated, but in general it has never been something outstanding, the other is very interesting, but prohibitively expensive.
              1. donavi49
                donavi49 23 December 2019 17: 43
                0
                But UTG is not a ground attack aircraft, but a flying crutch. It was created due to the fact that they could not quickly make the twin Su-33. It turned out to be easier to convert the Su-25UB into a flying school desk. For this, everything that was not needed was removed from him, including weapons, an aiming system, and so on. Part went into relief, part was compensated by the strengthening of the structure, for example.

                Aircraft Su-25UTG differs from the base combat training aircraft the absence of the following systems and structural elements:
                blocks of sighting equipment;
                weapon control system units;
                gun installation with a gun;
                broneekranov engines;
                radio communications with the ground forces;
                blocks and elements of the defense system.
                By plane Su-25UTG:
                a landing hook is installed in the rear of the fuselage, which is a brake hook with a damper-lift and side stabilizers;
                a modified fuselage tail boom is installed, capable of absorbing loads from the landing nut, the tail boom tip is shortened in connection with the removal of the parachute-no-brake system;
                in the head of the fuselage a cannon mount niche is sewn;
                a periscope of the front view is installed in the second cabin;
                in the middle part of the fuselage, the armored hatches protecting the bottom of the consumable tank are replaced by a structure of aluminum alloys;
                in the cockpit instead of the removed combat remotes, plugs, portholes, portholes, holes in the aircraft skin from the removed antennas are sewn up.


                The holders there are others on a 4x800L tank, and not for the use of weapons.
      2. exo
        exo 23 December 2019 15: 35
        +2
        There are also engineers from the Nikolaev plant, advised. We went to China. I would not be surprised if the designer of the Nevsky Design Bureau, in the same place, worked.
        The victories of the Chinese defense are laid down by the destruction of the Union.
    2. maidan.izrailovich
      maidan.izrailovich 23 December 2019 14: 49
      0
      ... I see in more comfortable weather conditions in the seas washing China ...

      It’s immediately obvious that you are not a Far East. And then you would know that in those seas only the temperature is comfortable. Almost all typhoons moving from south to north one way or another catch the waters of the seas near China.
      For example.
  2. Pecheneg
    Pecheneg 23 December 2019 07: 03
    +5
    Unfortunately, the Chinese surface fleet is superior to the Russian.
  3. Amateur
    Amateur 23 December 2019 07: 26
    +2
    China has Taiwan and all kinds of Spartley islands for aircraft carriers, etc. with their critical natural resources. But Russia needs an aircraft carrier, like GB, only for prestige.
    wassat In the worst case scenario, Grumant is returned (joke). wassat
  4. The comment was deleted.
    1. Chaldon48
      Chaldon48 23 December 2019 09: 19
      +3
      Interestingly, among those who more or less often visit Wo, there are many experts who are fluent in Chinese.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Per se.
        Per se. 23 December 2019 10: 13
        +5
        Quote: Chaldon48
        reading chinese
        Well, there is a saying in Russia - "Chinese letter". It is much more interesting why Sichuan Jiangsu (Jiangsu River) responds with hieroglyphs when reading in Russian? Second, almost according to Mikhail Zadornov, how convenient, and generally possible, is to type hieroglyphs on the keyboard?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 23 December 2019 10: 45
            +4
            The word "Sichuan" is only part of my name and it does not represent the region. I use a browser that comes with a translation for reading in Russian, there are many programs that provide us with the input of Chinese characters, and the Chinese language can be written in English letters. we use this pattern to enter text
            Thanks for the clarification, but you can do the translation in Russian, then everyone will understand you here. Otherwise, it will be difficult for the people to communicate with you.
          2. Sergey_G_M
            Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 11: 24
            +1
            I ask you to insert the translation (through the translator) into Russian in the message, just in order for everyone to understand you need to translate, but only for you alone, it will be easier.
            Like I did in this post.
            请 插入 翻译 (通过 翻译) 到 俄罗斯 的 消息 , 只是 为了 了解 你 都 需要 翻译 , 所以 只有 你 一个 人 , 这 将 是 更 容易。
            就像 我 在 这篇 文章 中 所做 的 那样。
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 23 December 2019 11: 10
            +2
            Does your name sound like Donald Trump in Chinese? It's funny, we also like to make fun of the Yankees, but everyone has their own way ... If there is a keyboard in the Latin alphabet, you know Russian, my advice to you, use this table, in a similar way our banks "mock" the Russian language. In any case, the majority will read and understand (Russian words in Latin), otherwise, it’s bad.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Per se.
                Per se. 23 December 2019 12: 17
                +2
                Now there are such opportunities, in the era of new technologies. As the saying goes, the willing is looking for opportunities, not the willing for reasons. Good luck in learning Russian, if there is a desire.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  5. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 23 December 2019 08: 40
    +7
    "Liaoning"
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 23 December 2019 09: 28
      +3
      Quote: pmkemcity
      "Liaoning"
      Vladimir Ilyich ....
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 23 December 2019 10: 36
        0
        Is he. More than alive!
      2. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 23 December 2019 11: 15
        +1
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        Vladimir Ilyich ....

        Zedong! wassat
    2. Proxima
      Proxima 23 December 2019 14: 23
      0
      Quote: pmkemcity
      "Liaoning"

      Not Liaoning, but Lenon! EU-.... lol
    3. bayard
      bayard 23 December 2019 17: 18
      0
      That is what internationalism means!
      Quote: pmkemcity
      "Liaoning"

      I saw "Liaoning" in Azerbaijani and Uzbek guises, and in Africa, they say, there are also Negroid features ... good drinks
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 24 December 2019 10: 07
        -1
        I also remembered about "Shandong Peanuts" ...
  6. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 23 December 2019 09: 27
    +3
    Interestingly, but the Chinese are not annoyed that the Chinese GEM on their ships?
    I don’t know how they coped with the TK for an aircraft carrier, but any small rifle in the AUG, like frigates and corvettes, is diesel. A Chinese diesel wedge out of the blue - ours have already sucked.
    1. Sergey_G_M
      Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 11: 08
      +2
      They make a lot of them, and I think these problems are not a secret for them, they will deal with the pace and problems.
      We have with the GEM the situation will be worse ((
    2. bayard
      bayard 23 December 2019 17: 38
      0
      Quote: Narak-zempo
      I don’t know how they dealt with TK for aircraft carriers

      TZA only at 001 - Ukraine delivered, finished on site, accompanied. And the chief designer of all Soviet aircraft carriers moved to China - advises (perhaps so far).
      And at 002, as far as I heard, there are GTA - under the Ukrainian license. New destroyers are also on GTA, and since their own capacities are not enough, they were loaded with orders from Ukrainian colleagues from Zorya-Mashproekt ... What our shipbuilders did not receive / could not receive now goes in 2-3 shifts to China ... It's a shame ... But the Chinese shipbuilding program has broken loose. Without Ukrainian power plants, they would not have developed such a pace ...
      ... It was necessary to take the Odessa, Nikolaev and Zaporizhzhya regions in 2014, then our shipbuilders could demonstrate such rates today.
      ... And at the same time, perhaps, and "Ruslan" would have gone into production again - in Ulyanovsk, with Zaporozhye engines.
      ... And if also Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk regions ... winked ... fellow what time we would have had everything. Without the problems of duplication and the creation of "new industries in the economy" ... in rocketry (the same Sarmat would have already flown) ...

      Well, and the Chinese are well done, they do not waste time in vain and do not miss opportunities.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 23 December 2019 17: 47
        0
        Well, the only advantage here is that the brothers know-how was sold to China, and not to the USA.
        1. bayard
          bayard 23 December 2019 20: 14
          0
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          Well, the only advantage here is that the brothers know-how was sold to China, and not to the USA.

          The USA got all the know-how much earlier, and to the extent that they wished. And a lot of specialists were transported to themselves.
          Ukraine, on the other hand, traded Soviet secrets with everyone who was just ready to pay.
      2. Doliva63
        Doliva63 23 December 2019 19: 09
        0
        Quote: bayard
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        I don’t know how they dealt with TK for aircraft carriers

        TZA only at 001 - Ukraine delivered, finished on site, accompanied. And the chief designer of all Soviet aircraft carriers moved to China - advises (perhaps so far).
        And at 002, as far as I heard, there are GTA - under the Ukrainian license. New destroyers are also on GTA, and since their own capacities are not enough, they were loaded with orders from Ukrainian colleagues from Zorya-Mashproekt ... What our shipbuilders did not receive / could not receive now goes in 2-3 shifts to China ... It's a shame ... But the Chinese shipbuilding program has broken loose. Without Ukrainian power plants, they would not have developed such a pace ...
        ... It was necessary to take the Odessa, Nikolaev and Zaporizhzhya regions in 2014, then our shipbuilders could demonstrate such rates today.
        ... And at the same time, perhaps, and "Ruslan" would have gone into production again - in Ulyanovsk, with Zaporozhye engines.
        ... And if also Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk regions ... winked ... fellow what time we would have had everything. Without the problems of duplication and the creation of "new industries in the economy" ... in rocketry (the same Sarmat would have already flown) ...

        Well, and the Chinese are well done, they do not waste time in vain and do not miss opportunities.

        And if the Union weren’t destroyed in the 91st, it’s scary to even think laughing
        1. bayard
          bayard 23 December 2019 20: 25
          +2
          If the Union had not collapsed, the United States and NATO would have collapsed long ago.
          Another thing is that in 2014 Ukraine could be taken at least in its entirety, at least in the best parts. With guaranteed support for the majority of the population. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
          But gunpowder was only enough in the Crimea ... well, and to support the Donbass. But after the Crimea, the greater and better part of the former Ukraine was waiting for Russia as a liberator ... And the local, including security officers.
          ... Well, yes this is wisdom with a backward mind - now a lot seems obvious, but then everything hesitated ... including and power in their decisions.
          1. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 25 December 2019 14: 38
            +2
            Quote: bayard
            But after the Crimea, the greater and better part of the former Ukraine was waiting for Russia as a liberator ... And the local, including security officers.
            Yes, but unfortunately we did not wait, we quit, having abandoned the Xivas, and we only have to survive ...
      3. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 23 December 2019 19: 09
        -1
        Quote: bayard
        And if also Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk regions

        1. Remove Putin's scum.
        2. Take a course on socialism.
        3. Clean the DNI and LC from the trash that seized power there.
        And the Ukrainians themselves will come. With everything that the local bigwigs have not yet managed to tear. Except, perhaps, Galician.
        1. Sergey_G_M
          Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 20: 38
          0
          1. This is a legitimately chosen power and we will not amuse everyone with funny jumps in the squares, maybe the power is not very, but Moscow was not built right away, we will gradually bring it to life.
          2. Pure socialism is not yet possible, until people have grown up to socialism-communism, personal ambitions, a thirst for power, greed, and this has served the collapse of the USSR. Maybe sometime later, after 200 years.
          3. We are not going to clean out and are not going to, we are like Ukrainian schizophrenic nationalists who want to clean out someone and believe that it is normal to burn people in Odessa (the investigation was banned) and at the same time they shout that they share European values ​​about freedom and tolerance.
        2. bayard
          bayard 23 December 2019 22: 09
          0
          1. Thanks to Putin and his team, we survived in 2014 - 2015. in the Donbass, thanks to his correct and timely decisions, they did not break into a big war even then - in 2014 - 2015. Thanks to Putin, Russia is successfully re-equipping its armed forces. A bastard ... she was before Putin, only then didn’t know the shores at all. And not the fact that the bastard that you want to bring instead of the current one will be kinder and fairer. From the current one, at least you know what to expect and what you will not wait for, this is a predictable bastard that you know in person. And she is not Putin's.
          2. Course towards socialism? Are you ready for civil war? Socialism is the redistribution of property. Do you think those who own everything will give it away without a fight? Do you have any idea the level of sabotage, sabotage and betrayal in the event of a new redistribution? And what kind of socialism do you actually mean? Stalin's? Or Khrushchev-Brezhnev? These are two huge differences! Do you think that modern Russia will withstand the upheavals you are calling for? Personally, I'm not sure, although I miss the USSR - its power, integrity and justice. In modern conditions, only a "revolution" from above is productive - a controlled process of transformation of the state to a "kingdom of justice", whatever you call it. And for this, the state must be strong, absolutely protected on the outer contour and have a personnel base for changing the liberal wing.
          3.
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          Clean the DNI and LC from the trash that seized power there.

          Is it in the front-line, belligerent and unrecognized republics to arrange an internal conflict? Much is not ideal here, but all persons in power are coordinated with ... curators and are the result of certain agreements. No matter how people here treat Pushilin, everyone knows that any (!) Weakening of power in the DPR (and LPR) will signal an attack for the enemy with an attempt at a "final solution." Therefore, no one will give the enemy such a reason.

          You are too stuck, considering your grievances and "underfeeding" from the authorities. Do you think that you are mired in "poverty" and injustice? Look at Ukraine - they also thought so in 2013/14, and now that level of well-being and security is considered a wonderful fairy tale that they have lost. Do you think you are better? Not at all. The people both there and here are one - Russian (of course, except for the Galicians). And liberals are the same as twins, and communists - the same conformists and rogues (not all, there are exceptions, I know some), and honest, decent people are about equal proportions. Unless there have been more fools in recent years on the outskirts, well, yes, this is the result of propaganda and political technologies, mass psychosis and the consequences of the stress of the insane - fratricidal war in the name of the United States and NATO. If any region of Russia were in the same situation, the consequences would be approximately the same.
          So everything was already there, and the Ukrainians themselves went to Russia - remember the uprising in Kharkov and many other cities, remember the Russian Spring in Ukraine.
          We managed to take up arms only in the Donbass, and this was due to the fact that Slavyansk gave for this time. And normal people, on their own initiative, could not just go to kill - they are normal. Until the usurpers began to bomb the cities and moved the army ... Kharkovites, for example, were much better organized, but they were crushed first (after Dnepropetrovsk) ... But people thought that they were the same Russian as in Crimea ...
          The Russian people in Ukraine did not have ANY organization.
          At all .
          Everything that happened - happened spontaneously, on the initiative from below, without universally recognized and well-known leaders, without administrative and material resources ... This, after all, came as a surprise to Russia. Nobody was counting on this ... Therefore, they could not use it in a timely manner. No one took into account the reaction of the ordinary people.

          In 2014, Russia had a wonderful chance to regain not just Crimea, but ALL of Little Russia and New Russia - to reunite the people divided by criminals of the Bialowieza Forest. To return to all (!) The Russian people the industrial and defense potential, to restore industrial and scientific-technical cooperation.
          Failed .
          It's a pity .
          1. Narak-zempo
            Narak-zempo 24 December 2019 00: 14
            0
            Why should I look at Ukraine? I live here. And I see very well that a social revolution on our own is impossible here, and it is not known how many more Maidans must pass before its necessity reaches the masses. The civil war is already underway. Am I ready to take part in it? In the current situation, no, because neither side aims to change the socio-economic formation and the transition to socialism. Moreover, the Putin regime is directly responsible for the destruction of potential left leaders in the Donbass.
            A "revolution from above" under the current government in Russia is a utopia, and its nonviolent change is unlikely.
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 24 December 2019 06: 37
              0
              "Revolution from the top" has been going on in Russia since 2000. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s0GX51YRe8. What is the share of state property in the national economy? And it is constantly increasing. Back in 2008, it became clear that if we draw historical analogies, then we are moving towards the 37th year. What are the goals of the repressions of the 30s? Drive the peasant from the land to the city to carry out industrialization. From 91 to the present, the working class has degraded, lumpinesized. Now it is no longer possible to put a person to the machine. To do this, he needs to pay as an American, a Japanese or, at worst, a Chinese, but no one will do this. Only coercive measures remain, i.e. GULAG.
              And a little party school. Imperialism, as the highest stage in the development of capitalism, is the fusion of monopoly capital with the state. What is socialism, in your opinion? But in my opinion, socialism is state capitalism, that is, such a formation in which the means of production are owned not by the people, but by the state. Whoever can now repeat the phrase "the state is me!" Is living under communism, because "gives as much as possible, but receives as needed."
              Read classics, do not read anthologies. The article of "Liaoning" is very small, "why is it just not crammed in it!"
              1. Narak-zempo
                Narak-zempo 24 December 2019 09: 34
                +1
                Quote: pmkemcity
                From the year 91 to the present, the working class has degraded and luminesced.

                Itself took and degraded? This, excuse me, is putting the cart in front of the horse. The degradation of the working class is a consequence of the destruction of the industry:
                https://scepsis.net/library/id_2969.html
                Quote: pmkemcity
                To do this, he needs to pay as an American, a Japanese, or, at worst, a Chinese

                Those. You yourself have just admitted that labor exploitation in Russia is stronger than even in China.
                Quote: pmkemcity
                But in my opinion, socialism is state capitalism, that is, a formation in which the state does not own the means of production.

                The question is not who formally owns the means of production, and in whose interests the appropriation of the surplus product is carried out. Lenin described socialism as state. capitalism in the conditions of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
                By the way, the nationalization of the modern Russian economy is a myth: https://youtu.be/QoAcbONuT9Q
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity 24 December 2019 09: 56
                  -1
                  https://youtu.be/QoAcbONuT9Q - трЁп. Вы спросите у любого бухгалтера - когда он переоценку ОФ в последний раз делал? Вот тот красивый график Вам в помощь.
                  Exploitation is undoubtedly stronger. So it was under the Soviet regime, which, by the way, became the reason for the tacit consent of the "hegemon" to the coup d'etat of March 14, 1990.
                  I do not mind your wording on the causes and consequences of the lumpenization of the proletariat.
                  Why play with numbers? Just calculate the percentage of socialization of the "national" product, not abstract, but any product from the store, the one that a person buys every day. I assure you, you will be very surprised.
                  Why is socialization done? Yes for redistribution! The beneficiaries are well known - from the world backstage to local collaborators.
                  1. Narak-zempo
                    Narak-zempo 24 December 2019 13: 52
                    +2
                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    https://youtu.be/QoAcbONuT9Q - трЁп

                    Reason, however. I brought you the opinion of not the last person in Russian economic science.
                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    Exploitation is undoubtedly stronger. So it was under the Soviet regime, which, by the way, became the reason for the tacit consent of the "hegemon" to the coup d'etat of March 14, 1990.

                    Was exploitation in the USSR stronger than where? In developed Western countries? I agree. If you do not take into account the fact that there, in addition to the exploitation of the local proletariat by the local bourgeoisie, there is joint exploitation by the entire population of the labor force of the Third World. What the politically illiterate "hegemon" did not know and did not want to know. However, in the USSR, an incomparably larger share of the surplus product alienated from the worker, relative to modern Russia, was returned to society as a whole, i.e. socialized - in the form of infrastructure for the existence of society. Those same apartments, schools, hospitals, affordable transport, etc. You can blame the quality of all this, but you can't argue with the quantity.
                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    Just calculate the percentage of socialization of the "national" product, not abstract, but any product from the store

                    But will you be so kind as to share the methods of calculation? I'm not an economist after all.
                    Quote: pmkemcity
                    Why is socialization done? Yes for redistribution! Beneficiaries are well-known - from the world behind the scenes to local collaborators

                    Sorry, but you clearly understand socialization in your own way. "To socialize for someone else's benefit" is an oxymoron. The socialization of a national product means that decisions about how to use it are made by society as a whole. If the product is redistributed to someone who disposes of it in their own private interests, then this is just privatization, i.e. classical capitalism with its social nature of production and private character of appropriation. Socializing in modern Russia is exclusively costs.
                    1. pmkemcity
                      pmkemcity 25 December 2019 07: 29
                      -1
                      Socialization without redistribution for the sake of the whole society can, of course, be called theft. But so far there is no such wording in everyday life.
                      To calculate the share of the withdrawal in the price of a product, it is not necessary to be seven spans in the forehead (I have an accountant's mother and wife).
                      Item price - (income) of the supplier and the margin sold, both of which are made up of cost and profit. Cost - salaries, expenses, taxes (eg VAT). Profit - gesheft (in the sense of the capitalist's "profit"), taxes (income tax). We go down "below". Salary (in the sense of an employee's income) - funds (compulsory medical insurance, PF, IMS), tax (personal income tax), actually pocket money. The capitalist's expenses (before income tax) - transport (fuels and lubricants, insurance, GLONASS, training and retraining, PLATON, etc.), interest on the loan (if they could prove it with the Tax Office), property maintenance costs (electricity, gas, heat, water, solid waste, current repairs), property taxes, raw materials (if processing), components (if assembled), goods (if resale). Lower? You are welcome. The capitalist's "profit" - personal income tax, interest on loans (controlled transaction), replenishment of working capital, replenishment (replacement) of fixed assets (buildings, machinery and equipment, transport), pocket money. It would seem that the bottom is already? But no! The pocket expenses of an individual (both a capitalist and a proletarian) are hidden taxes (excise taxes, insurance of transport and real estate, traffic police fines, court duties and various government services, and so on ad infinitum), taxes (real estate, land, transport), housing and communal services, transport (fuels and lubricants, repair, replacement with a new one), have a drink, a snack .... You thought that was all? You are wrong. Each of the things I have listed (from fuel and lubricants to drunk and bite) has the same components. This example is for a simple product only. Now imagine what's going on with a complex product (submarine, car or TV), in the production of which there are many degrees of processing, many suppliers.
                      As in an anecdote - "I live on these two percentages"! If you are not an economist, you should immediately see why it is more profitable for us to import something than to produce it at home - customs duty and the first part of the "Marlezon ballet" are paid.
                      And finally, the cherry on top is INFLATION. As a "non-economist" I will explain - inflation is a "tax on the future generation" (such is its interpretation in economic science). The word "tax" is key here - it speaks about the nature of inflation (targeted government actions).
          2. Per se.
            Per se. 24 December 2019 07: 34
            +2
            Quote: bayard
            Failed .
            It's a pity .
            They could not and did not want to, such different concepts, but they stand very close. First, answer yourself a simple and obvious question - why were the elections held by the junta recognized? Indeed, if an unconstitutional coup took place, if there is a legitimate and legitimate President Yanukovych and even his Prime Minister Azarov (we both had), why the hell was it necessary to recognize a farce with elections, in fact, held under the patronage of the CIA, what right did the putschists have to holding elections? You wrote a lot and reasonably, but how did such an important detail remain "outside the brackets"? There was no need to bring in troops, just tell the coup organizers that you are nobody, and there is no way to call you! All the trump cards were in our hands, according to all the norms of international law, according to the obligations of the CIS, Russia could intervene and insist on the return of power to the legal channel, the trial of the conspirators, and certainly should not have recognized illegal elections so that the criminals could not legalize their power , start acting on behalf of the state.

            Alas, they admitted! Why? Because we are in capitalism, and it already has a leader and owner. Because the money of our powers that be lies in foreign banks and foreign currency. It was enough to visit Moscow to Didier Burkhalter, and that was all. Civil war, say who with whom? All our "elite" are bogged down in compromising evidence, the majority of those acquired by "backbreaking work" have criminal roots. Our special services don't have a dossier on them? Tell anyone, a suitcase, a train station, London, or on a bunk, with the confiscation of everything stolen and looted. That's the whole "war". Do not be fooled, our bad boys will never build a kind of "parallel capitalism" in their bourgeoisie, and being in a foreign world pole of power, under other people's rules, invented for the benefit of the owner, will never make Russia strong and free, for this you need to have true independence , which can only be achieved by the revival of the pole of socialism. Without socialism, our capitalist government will puff out its cheeks, raising ratings. "Slaves in the galleys", their direct duties delegated to them by the people, will pass off as feats and favors, and "effective managers", learned from Soros's economic programs, will smartly sell freebies for which they did not plow or sow - oil, gas, timber, fish and other natural raw materials, plus Soviet military developments. They did not create anything significant in 28 years of their power, they only devoured the great heritage of the superpower, used the Soviet margin of safety. So, Ukraine, an extremely important territory, has been lost, and China has been saving billions of dollars and decades of building the same fleet (and not only), thanks to our fools and traitors.
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 24 December 2019 10: 00
              0
              "Golden words, Yuri Venediktovich"!
          3. Nemchinov Vl
            Nemchinov Vl 25 December 2019 15: 09
            +1
            Quote: bayard
            ... You are too stuck, considering your grievances and "underfeeding" from the authorities. Do you think that you are mired in "poverty" and injustice? Look at Ukraine - they also thought so in 2013/14, and now that level of well-being and security is considered a wonderful fairy tale that they have lost. Do you think you are better? Not at all.
            Unfortunately, but in Russia, I'm afraid not everyone will understand us. I am observing "from here" (like you), I agree !!
            Quote: bayard
            ... In 2014, Russia had a wonderful chance to regain not just Crimea, but ALL of Little Russia and New Russia - to reunite the people, separated by the criminals of the Bialowieza Forest. To return to all (!) The Russian people the industrial and defense potential, to restore industrial and scientific-technical cooperation ...
            It seems yes but there is one significant "but" !!. If the decisiveness of actions on the part of the Russian Federation were like in the Crimea, from the point of view of lightning speed !!. The only thing that I think played a decisive role here was Putin’s understanding of the key aspect that the military bases of the Russian Federation already existed in Crimea (as reference points !!, which is important), but not in other regions (! ), and he was afraid to sharply introduce military units (in the center and southeast), so as not to look like a clear aggressor ?! That is, here, his calculation, I can easily understand. But in my opinion, because of this, the empire having a real chance to quickly reborn, instead, she lost significantly in the long run ... Let's hope that everything will get better with time (I would like during my lifetime) ...
            Quote: bayard
            ... If any region of Russia were in the same position, the consequences would be about the same ...
            - if not worse ... but, on the other hand, there they have such plus, as a point of military support (and on its territory), as a base in the Crimea, and this will be a little easier.
        3. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 25 December 2019 14: 42
          +1
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          ... And the Ukrainians themselves will come. With everything that the local bigwigs have not yet managed to tear. Except, perhaps, Galician.
          now it is unlikely ... there are many "scorched by blood loss", because from unemployment, at one time a part left to work in Poland (Portugal, Russia, Belarus, Lithuania ... etc.), in some and a contract with The APU signed (for the sake of salary, not for the sake of battles), but got to the front, and began to lose friends, however ... pain ?!
      4. Nemchinov Vl
        Nemchinov Vl 25 December 2019 12: 34
        0
        Quote: bayard
        ... It was necessary to take the Odessa, Nikolaev and Zaporizhzhya regions in 2014.
        Hello, my friend Vitaliy, I welcome, but I will object. On the one hand, it was necessary, but I would like in the Crimea (quiet) ... And since it happened with your region, we in Zaporozhye really would not want ... If half, cheer and throw into chaos,. ..that not. Better a bad world (without constant skirmishes) ...?! No one here especially expected destruction on their land (and does not wait !!). I think you are better than others to catch what I mean ...
        Conceptually, yes. The industrial southeast of Ukraine (built and sharpened for the cooperation of the defense industry of the USSR), after the coup, it was necessary to fight back and preserve / protect it sharply and quietly ("On Krymski" !!!). At that time, local referendums (like in Crimea), such an opportunity would have been easier at times !!!
        Now everything will be much more difficult to do the same ... Because of unemployment, many signed army contracts with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and now, someone "remained there", then a godfather, then a brother, then a matchmaker ... The bitterness of real losses incurred, will become a slowing down and "insidious" motive that harms for unification (which, by reason, is more in demand !!, but ... Peter was not in vain, involved / from unemployment / people under the blood feud !!). Most likely not himself, but at the instigation of advisers from outside ...
        Yes, it is very painful for us to see how our Motor Sich "with difficulty survives, dodging" (and how the same Chinese have already appeared around it, like hungry piranhas), it is even more difficult for Progress, Zaporizhstal and Titano Magnesium or Aluminum Combines ", and ... (there is not enough space for all our plants and plants) ... But no one would want open hostilities here !!! ...
        1. bayard
          bayard 25 December 2019 17: 08
          0
          Quote: Vl Nemchinov
          But open fighting is here, no one would want !!! ..

          But who of the sane would wish for such a thing?
          But it was open hostilities that began in May (even in Slavyansk - the first battle on May 5). And before that there were March and April, when the power had just flowed into the hands of usurpers and, most importantly, neither the army, nor the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Security Service of Ukraine would dare to actively resist Russia. Not only that - with joy and zeal, the main part would have taken up the establishment of constitutional order, that is, to catch and neutralize saboteurs and traitors who committed the coup in the interests of the United States, Britain and NATO.
          But Russia was clearly not ready for such risks. Neither psychologically, nor organizationally ... And they didn’t count the popular uprising either ... But it was just a popular one. Many who tried to saddle him, and still saddled him ... but later ...
          When Russia realized that the United States and Britain were trying to drag Russia into the conflict in Ukraine, to provoke it to military intervention ... with far-reaching goals ... Russia decided to "non-intervention" and freeze the conflict ... under the guarantees of the Minsk agreements ...
          It was the solution of the issue in the first 2 months after the coup that would be the most optimal and in effect and results would be close to the Crimean (solution). There was a chance.
          But there was no willingness to take this chance.
          It’s just that no one calculated this course of events and the whole subsequent course of events was a complete improvisation ... And the Ukrainian army, desperately unwilling to fight with its people ... itself did not notice how it was drawn into full-scale databases ... with its own people .
          Now all this is for a long time.

          And yet, objectively, in order to use the first golden 2 months to suppress the rebellion and reunification, it was necessary to calculate all this for a year or six months ahead (which is extremely unlikely) and prepare everything for this. But, for obvious reasons, nobody expected SUCH consequences in Ukraine. Therefore, everything went exactly as it went.
          Alas. request
  7. knn54
    knn54 23 December 2019 09: 41
    +1
    - the inability to use heavy aircraft on board the ship ... on which only defensive weapons are located to repel air attacks.
    I wonder if this is a "doctrine" or a compulsory (for now) measure?
    1. Sergey_G_M
      Sergey_G_M 23 December 2019 10: 38
      +1
      Both.
      Strike weapons only on aircraft are "doctrine".
      The inability to use heavy aircraft is a necessary measure.
  8. xomaNN
    xomaNN 23 December 2019 13: 00
    0
    The country's economy determines its military power! I do not exclude the possibility that in 5-6 years the Russian Federation will order an aircraft carrier hull + general ship systems in China. And he will arm at home, on the NSR.

    After all, we are "Brothers Forever" with China?
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 23 December 2019 16: 26
      0
      Quote: xomaNN
      After all, we are "Brothers Forever" with China?

      Brothers, brothers, exactly. Only this is a brother like the elder brother of Danila Bagrov from the first "Brother". Sell, buy and sell again, but at a higher price.
    2. Nemchinov Vl
      Nemchinov Vl 25 December 2019 12: 42
      0
      Quote: xomaNN
      After all, we are "Brothers Forever" with China?
      In one of the Soviet-Russian films (it seems in "Stormy Gates" or the TV series "Men's Work"), there is a scene where, having met in Chechnya, two officers, who had previously passed through Afghanistan together, found themselves on opposite sides of the barricades. And the one (a Chechen by nationality) who at one time turned out to be on the side of Chechnya, replied to the special forces officer, - that friendship never happens ?! ... Unfortunately, everyday life often confirms this.
  9. NF68
    NF68 23 December 2019 16: 59
    0
    Then the 3rd Chinese aircraft carrier will enter service. Behind him is the fourth and, and behind him, quite possibly, the fifth and sixth.
  10. Talgat 148
    Talgat 148 23 December 2019 17: 51
    +2


    China Carrier Program!
  11. Alexey Z
    Alexey Z 23 December 2019 18: 36
    0
    Quote: Narak-zempo
    Interestingly, but the Chinese are not annoyed that the Chinese GEM on their ships?
    I don’t know how they coped with the TK for an aircraft carrier, but any small rifle in the AUG, like frigates and corvettes, is diesel. A Chinese diesel wedge out of the blue - ours have already sucked.

    Sorry, but by the way I had to, and the owners of Chinese cars do not bother to buy original Chinese parts, and not any fake from Germany or Japan?
  12. Yurkaza
    Yurkaza 6 March 2020 21: 19
    0
    Carriers are being built, a whole squadron is being built to protect it, probably, high-speed trains are being built, they are afraid of poverty and corruption. What are we? Oh yes, a nuclear club.