About the latest “Borea”, “Bark”, “Mace” and a little about “Borea-A”

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In past articles, we examined the reasons why we need naval strategic nuclear forces, and some aspects of the SSBN's stealth created during the Soviet era.

What about today?


In the 2000s, the basis of the nuclear power of the Russian Navy was 7 “Dolphins” of Project 667BDRM. Good ships according to the feedback of sailors, even at the time of their birth, that is, in the 80s of the last century they were no longer on the cutting edge of military-technical progress. And therefore it is not surprising that in the first large-scale state armament program (GPV-2011-2020), a complete renewal of naval strategic nuclear forces was planned: the construction of 8, and then, in the version adjusted in 2012, even 10 SSBNs of the latest design.



Although ... in fact, things were a bit wrong. As mentioned earlier, in the 70s of the last century, the USSR simultaneously created 2 types of SSBNs: the grandiose "Sharks" of project 941, which were to become a full-fledged 3rd generation of submarine nuclear submarines of this class and the "moderate" Dolphins 667BDRM of the generation "2 + ", As the development of the previous type of" Squid ". It can be assumed that the Dolphins were created in case something went wrong with the Sharks, so as not to be left with nothing. But in the end, both projects went into mass production.

However, the practice of parallel construction of two types of ships of the same purpose was vicious, and in the USSR they understood this. Therefore, back in the 80s, a new strategic submarine cruiser began to be designed at the TsKBMT Rubin, which in the future was supposed to replace both the Sharks and the Dolphins. The lead SSBN, the project of which received the number 955, even managed to be laid in 1996, but then the upheavals began.

Main armament


The main problem arose with the new weapons of the SSBN - R-39UTTH "Bark". This ballistic missile was supposed to be our analogue of the American Trident II and, it must be said, the performance characteristics of the products made a considerable impression. The rocket was designed as a solid fuel, and its maximum cast weight reached 3,05 tons. A massive RGCh IN with 10 warheads of up to 200 Kt of power could be delivered to a distance of at least 9, and possibly 000 km. A special “highlight” was the ability of “Bark” to ice start - in some way unknown to the author, the rocket managed to overcome the layer of ice. Thus, the task of the SSBN was significantly simplified: it was not necessary to look for wormwood, or to push ice masses into the hull in places where the ice is thinner. Probably, the Bark had some restrictions on the thickness of the ice to be overcome, but still the capabilities of underwater missile carriers with such a missile increased sharply.


R-39UTTH "Bark"

The power of the American anti-submarine aviation literally drove our SSBNs under the ice. The latter was a good defense against discharged sonar buoys (RSL), as well as against a number of unconventional methods for detecting submarines. But the launch of a conventional ballistic missile could not be made through an ice cover. Accordingly, the SSBN commanders had to look for places where the thickness of the ice allowed them to push through the hull of the ship, and then a very dangerous ascent procedure began, requiring virtuoso skill from the crew, and still often leading to damage to the submarine. This operation usually took hours. But even after surfacing, the SSBN had problems, because it was necessary to remove pieces of ice (sometimes a man’s height, or even more) from the covers of ballistic missile shafts. Obviously, “Bark” greatly simplified the task of submariners and, what is extremely important, reduced the preparation time for striking.

In addition, the Bark could be launched not on the optimal ballistic, but on a more persistent trajectory - in this case, obviously, the missile range decreased, but the flight time also decreased, which was important for hitting missile strike detection / warning systems and other important US goals.

Perhaps the only drawback of the Bark was its mass, which reached 81 tons. No matter how terrible the Bark was, the Trident II still remained the leader, having 2,8 tons of cast weight with a mass of 59 tons, with the maximum firing range of the American rockets reached 11 thousand km. Alas, for a number of objective reasons, the USSR, which created a number of remarkable liquid ballistic missiles, lagged behind the United States in the field of solid fuel. The problem was not only, but possibly not so much in the mass of the rocket as in its dimensions: the length of the Trident II was 13,42 m, while the similar indicator of Bark was 16,1 m, which obviously required an increase dimensions of the carrier.

Alas, the work on the “Bark” was curtailed in 1998, and the work on promising SLBMs was transferred from the GRTs im. Academician Makeev at the Moscow Institute of Heat Engineering (MIT), the developer of the then-top "Topol" and "Topol-M". Officially it sounded that the Bark was created using a number of outdated technical solutions and that the Makeyevtsy could not cope with a solid-fuel rocket, since all three first launches ended unsuccessfully. It was also noted that further work on the Bark will be dragged out very much, since production facilities are capable of producing only one such missile in 2-3 years. In addition, the benefits of taking fleet MIT-ovsky "product": the maximum unification of land and sea ballistic missile variants, cost savings. And there is such a strange argument as the separation in time of the peaks of rearmament of the sea and land components of the strategic nuclear forces.

But Hiley Likely


All the data known to the author indicate that the only reason for the transfer of the design of the new SLBM to MIT was the resourcefulness of the leadership of the Moscow institute in an effort to "pull the blanket over itself", deploying cash flow to itself to create a new missile.

To begin with, we recall that it was in the GRTs im. Academician Makeev (SKB-385 under the USSR) for many decades our SLBMs were created. It was this design bureau that specialized in the naval component of strategic nuclear forces, while MIT worked exclusively in the interests of the Strategic Missile Forces. One of the arguments of the supporters of the MIT-Bulava was at that time a huge amount for fine-tuning Barca - up to 5 billion rubles. in 1998 prices. But how could one count on the fact that MIT specialists, who saw the sea only during their vacation from the beach, would be able to create SLBMs cheaper?

I must say that preliminary design developments on the Bark were started back in mid-1980, but the real work started only in November 1985, after the decision of the Council of Ministers on the beginning of the development work on the Bark. By the fall of 1998, when work on the “Bark” was discontinued, the GRC them. Academician Makeev worked on it for about 13 years, of which 7 fell on the timelessness of the “wild 90s” with the collapse of cooperation between the CIS countries, interruptions in funding, etc. etc. The rocket had to be redone, due to the inability to obtain the right fuel - the plant for its production remained in Ukraine and was redesigned for household chemicals. Nevertheless, the readiness of the complex at the time of closure was estimated at 73%. It was assumed that to complete work on the Bark, it would take another 3-4 years and 9 test missile launches. It is possible, and even more likely, that such launches would be needed more, but it was quite possible to meet the 12-15 launches. Talking that the production of these missiles has dragged on for decades does not stand up to criticism - production capacities made it possible to produce up to 4-5 Barks a year, the question was only in financing. Perhaps 2002 was really too optimistic a deadline for completing the R-39UTTX project, but in 2004-2005, Bark could well pass the exams and put into service.

The author does not have any information about the costs of the program for creating the "Mace". But it is known that MIT spent almost 20 years on this - from the fall of 1998 to the summer of 2018, and during this time 32 launches were made. Although strictly speaking, to say: "MIT did" is wrong, because in the end the Makeevites were forced to join the process of fine-tuning the "Mace".


But the "Mace" takes off beautifully

Thus, in all likelihood, the creation of the “Mace” ultimately cost the country much more than the cost of the development of Bark. But the problem is that the difference in the cost of creating missiles is only part of the overall damage to the country's defense from transferring the design of SLBMs from Makeev’s center to MIT.

As you know, the financial situation of the Russian Federation did not allow to keep the USSR fleet in its former composition. In this case, of course, it would be reasonable to keep the most powerful and modern ships in the Navy. Among the SSBNs, there were six “Sharks” of Project 941 - according to the logic of things, they should have been left in the current fleet.


Not that the Shark was the perfect ship. It was not for nothing that it was said about her, as about the victory of technology over common sense. Nevertheless, since these “Cold War monsters” were built and put into operation, then, of course, they should be used to ensure the security of the country, and not to be cut into needles.

But alas, this turned out to be completely impossible, because the warranty periods for storing their main armament, the R-39 SLBMs, expired in 2003, and no new missiles of this type were produced. It is well known that the Barks were initially created not only for the new type of SSBNs, but also for the re-equipment of Project 941 ships. In other words, the cost of transferring the Sharks from R-39 to R-39UTTH was relatively small. But when designing the Bulava, no one thought about the giant TRPKSN, and therefore the cost of re-equipping the Sharks under the Bulava would be enormous. That is, theoretically it was possible, but practically - comparable in cost to the construction of a new ship.

As a result, at the beginning of the 667st century, the basis of the NSLF of the Russian Federation was the significantly less perfect Dolphins of Project 2007BDRM. But their missiles also required replacing ... That is, all the beautiful words about the unification of ballistic missiles of the Strategic Missile Forces and the Navy remained beautiful words: the fleet was forced to create a line of liquid-based SLBMs: first the Sineva, and then the Liner, which were put into service in 2014 and XNUMX respectively. In other words, if we began to finish the Bark, then the creation of one or even both of these missiles could well be abandoned - and, of course, save on that.

In addition, we should not forget that the Bark had much greater capabilities than the Bulava. The maximum casting weight of the Bark is 2,65 times greater; the flight range is at least 1 km higher. The Bark adapted to the ice start, but the Bulava did not. The advantage of Bark was also the possibility of its launching along a “flat” trajectory in which, for example, the flight from the Barents Sea to Kamchatka was reduced from 000 to 30 minutes. Finally, the capabilities of Bark allowed him to carry the maneuvering warhead, practically invulnerable to missile defense, which we know by the name Vanguard. But for the "Bulava" such a load is too heavy.

If “Bark” had been able to defend in 1998, the Russian Navy would have received a much more advanced missile in the early 2000s, spending much less money on its development, and also saved on the further development of liquid-based SLBMs. At the same time, the basis of the Nuclear Forces of the country in the late 90s and to this day could be 6 TRPKSN “Shark” with the support of several “Dolphins”, and not “Dolphins” with the support of “Squids”, as it happened in reality. There is no doubt that with the "Sharks" the combat potential of our strategic nuclear forces would have been significantly higher. Not in vain, not in vain did the Americans give us money to dispose of these hulks ... The completion of work on the Bark would lead to our quiet sleep being guarded by the generation 3 and 2+ SSBNs, rather than 2+ and " 2 ”, as it happened and is happening now in reality.

In fact, the Bulava had only one (albeit a very significant) advantage - the lower weight of 36,8 tons and the corresponding reduction in geometric dimensions. But no one interfered with the completion of work at Barkom, to entrust the GRTs to them. Academician Makeev a new SLBM, of more modest dimensions - for the latest next-generation SSBNs. And there was no need to “push the non-pushable” into a weight of less than 40 tons. Obviously, the smaller the missile, the more modest its combat capabilities. Of course, the underwater carrier has its limitations, but the United States and other countries have achieved excellent results in the creation of atomic carriers "Trident IID5" - SLBM weighing under 60 tons. No one bothered us to do the same.

In fact, the only reason for the low weight of the “Mace” was precisely its unification with land complexes. Of course, for mobile launchers, not every ton is critical, but every kilogram of the weight of the rocket mounted on them. But at sea, such severe restrictions are not needed, so it can be said that unification has become a drawback rather than a dignity of the Bulava.

Of course, the question raised by the author is actually more complicated and deeper: after all, the cost of creating a 81-ton rocket weighing significantly more than 36,8 tons, and the cost of operating the Sharks was probably higher than that of the Dolphins . Surely there were also a lot of other nuances. But nevertheless, due to a combination of factors, the rejection of Bark in favor of the Bulava should be regarded as a big mistake of our government.

Here in such a setting was created project 955.

But back to the Boreas


So, in 1996, under the serial number 201, the first SSBN of the new project 955 was laid down. And, I must say that with the delivered fleet in 2013, “Yuri Dolgoruky,” this SSBN had only some visual similarities, and even that - if you look from afar .


Model SSBN pr.09550 "Borey" with missile system D-19UTTH "Bark".

The architecture of the brainchild of TsKBMT Rubin was most reminiscent of the 667BDRM project - here is an impressive hump in order to cover the large R-39UTTH Bark and a twin-shaft propulsion system in it. But in general, there is very little information in the open press about this stage of the life of the first Russian SSBN, and almost all of it has already been given above. It remains only to add that according to the initial draft, the Borey was supposed to carry only 12 P-39UTTH Bark.

However, the word "total" is unlikely to be appropriate here. The fact is that a dozen Barkov would have a maximum discharged weight of 36,6 tons, but the sixteen Bulava SLBMs that ultimately received our latest SSBNs were only 18,4 tons. There is almost a twofold advantage of the initial project , and if we recall all the capabilities that “Bark” should have possessed, but which “Bulava” did not have, then probably we should talk about a drop in combat potential not by two, but, probably, several times. According to the author, the absence of an ice launch of SLBMs is especially sad.

But - what has been done is done, and when in 1988 a decision was made to close the development of Barca in favor of Bulava, project 955 underwent the most significant changes. Alas, it is rather difficult for an amateur to assess the overall quality of these changes.

On the one hand, the SSBNs were redesigned almost completely. New and shorter missiles allowed to reduce the height of the "hump" of the underwater cruiser, and there is an opinion that this had a beneficial effect on its low noise. The author finds it difficult to determine how significant this factor is: usually professionals indicate the screw as the main source of noise, after it - various SSBNs that make noise during their work. But still, apparently, the geometry and the total area of ​​the hull also have some significance.

It can be assumed that replacing a twin-shaft propulsion system (DU) with a single-shaft water jet was an undoubted benefit. We see that 4th generation American nuclear submarines are using the “single-shaft water cannon” everywhere. So, if our developers did not mess up with the implementation, we can assume that the new remote control significantly reduced the noise of the Borea. In addition, it should be understood that work to increase the stealth of submarines is ongoing (noise is only one of the parameters, there are others), and over the years of delay on the slipway some of the latest developments could well get on the main SSBN.

As mentioned earlier, the secrecy of the submarine is ensured not only by reducing the distance of its detection, but also by increasing the distance of detection of the enemy. The Boreas received the latest sonar complex (SAC) Irtysh-Amphora, which, at least theoretically, was the best that was installed on Soviet submarines before. And even had to surpass the latest American complexes of a similar purpose.


Everything seems to be wonderful, but on the other hand, it should be understood that until about 2010 the armed forces of our country were in the position of a “poor relative” who was allocated money only for the purpose of not stretching their legs. Accordingly, the designers and builders of the Boreev had to save literally on everything, including the use of the backlogs of the 3rd generation Shchuka-B submarines. For the lead “Yuri Dolgoruky” they used K-133 “Lynx” hull structures, for “Alexander Nevsky” - K-137 “Cougar”, and for “Vladimir Monomakh” - K-480 “Ak Bars”.

Of course, such "innovations" could not but lead to a decrease in the combat potential of the Boreev. For example, the use of the nose structures of the MAPL project 971, in which the torpedo tubes were located there, led to the fact that it was impossible to install the Irtysh-Amphora SJSC antenna on the SSBN of project 955. The latter according to the project was supposed to occupy the entire nose, and the torpedo tubes should be in the center of the hull. And so - I had to get out: the hardware of the SAC of the newest SSBNs really belongs to Irtysh-Amphore, but the antenna is much more modest from the Skat-3M SAC, that is, the upgraded sonar complex of the 3rd generation. And the same can be said about the power plant of ships of this type: on the one hand, a revolutionary water-jet propulsion for domestic nuclear submarines was implemented, and on the other hand, instead of the newest KTP-6 reactor with a capacity of 200 MW and the latest steam turbine installation, OK-650V with a capacity of 190 MW were used and steam turbine installation "Azurit-90". This is a reliable power plant, but it is just an improved version of the EU all the same "Pike-B". That is, in the best case, such a technical solution places the Boreya ES somewhere between the 3rd and 4th generations of nuclear submarines.

In other words, in the first series of “Boreev” the newest and most effective solutions were embodied in something, and in the other, what was at hand and not what was needed was put in place, but what we could produce. We could say that we didn’t talk about systematic updating of the fleet before the start of the GPV 2011–2020, but we had to think about saving constantly. That is why a number of systems and units of these three "Boreev" 1996, 2004 and 2006. bookmarks were taken either from boats of the 3rd generation in a clean or modernized form, or they were made using components for these boats. There remain questions about the culture of production - the defense industry enterprises were not going through the best of times, and between 1990-2010. in fact, they were forced to switch from serial to unit production. This could affect the quality and / or resource of various SSBNs of the project 955, and it should be borne in mind that some of the mechanisms of the Ministry of Defense had to be acquired abroad: the production of the latest SSBNs was not located in the Russian Federation.

“Well, again, the author went into speculation,” another reader will say, and of course he will be right. But you need to understand that the same noise does not only depend on the design of the ship, or even its individual nodes and components. Projects may be the most remarkable, but if the technical implementation failed, if, for example, “stale” components with a reduced resource were used in the manufacture, then after a short time there begins to rattle, there it will knock, and as a result, the SSBN's secrecy will be much lower laid down. Despite the fact that the timely completion of planned repairs since the days of the USSR was the weak point of the Russian Navy.

And so it turns out that, on the one hand, according to the general director of TsKB Rubin A.A. Dyachkova, the Boreas of project 955 have 5 times less noise than the Shchuki-B, and besides (not from his words) they are equipped with the state-of-the-art Irtysh-Amphora SJSC, whose capabilities are superior to those of the US Virginia. And on the other hand, taking into account all of the above, most likely in the person of Yuri Dolgoruky, Alexander Nevsky, and Vladimir Monomakh, the fleet received three strategic nuclear powered vessels, which in terms of their technical level and capabilities were stuck between the 3rd and 4th th generation of nuclear submarines.

And what's next?


Everything seems to be wonderful. As you know, on November 9, 2011, a contract was signed for the design of an improved type of SSBN “Borey-A”, with R&D costs at the level of 39 billion rubles. If this figure is true, then such costs should be considered colossal for our country, because at that time the cost of building one Borea was about 23 billion rubles.


"Prince Vladimir" - the lead ship of the series "Borey-A"

Why so many? It has already been said above that the Boreas of project 955 were “half”, “patchwork” ships, the design of which was constantly introduced with various changes due to long-term construction, and even adjusted for old backlogs. Obviously, at some point it was necessary to stop and design a modification of Borea, in which all the innovations would be arranged in the most rational way. And at the same time - add to the project the latest achievements of the science of submarine shipbuilding.

And so, in the framework of the GPV 2011-2020, they began to create the 955A project - a much more advanced SSBN, in which stealth was significantly increased, due to the decrease in the level of physical fields and noise, the latest, improved modifications of controls, communications, hydroacoustics, etc. .d. etc. The visual differences between Borea A and Borea are interesting - there will be no hump containing missiles in the latest SSBN: SLBMs have enough space inside a strong and lightweight hull. In addition, the Borea cabin from the bow was beveled to the deck.


But at “Boreev-A” it has more familiar forms


I would also like to note the presence of Boreya-A with new side search antennas.



Borey had standard rudders with a rotary block

And here at Boreya-A these steering wheels are all-turning


Photo: Oleg Kuleshov, JSC Central Design Bureau MT Rubin

It has been repeatedly said that it is 955A that will become the ship, fully realizing the potential of the 4th generation of nuclear submarines. Well, perhaps it will be so in reality. I would very much like to believe that our fleet will finally receive a full-fledged 4th generation SSBN.

Here are just ...


The first thing I would like to recall is the enormous battle that took place over the cost of our nuclear submarines between the Ministry of Defense and the defense industry enterprises, which took place at the beginning of the GPV 2011-2020. Then our President had to intervene in pricing issues. There is very little information about this battle of titans, and, it seems, the parties managed to reach an acceptable compromise.

The second is the extremely short design time for Borea-A. The development contract was signed on November 1, 2011, but they began to prepare for the laying back in 2009, and the official laying of the first ship of this project, Prince Vladimir, took place on July 30, 2012. And to say that - it’s very similar to what was being done in a huge hurry, since the official bookmark ceremony was postponed as many as four times. Initially, they planned to lay "Prince Vladimir" already in December 2009 (obviously, then they planned to build "Borey" according to the initial project). But in February 2012, the deadline was March 18 of the same year, then the postponement to May, and finally to July, when, in fact, the official bookmarking ceremony took place.

And finally, the third - not having time to build a single Boreya-A, the Ministry of Defense gathered, starting in 2018, to finance the development work on the Boreya-B, which, in comparison with its predecessor, was to receive advanced equipment, including new water jet propulsion. At the same time, the construction of the Boreev-B was to begin in 2018, and the lead ship was planned to be handed over to the fleet in 2026, and to begin construction of serial SSBNs of this modification after 2023. However, already in 2018, these plans fell into disrepair: the project was closed because it did not meet the criterion of cost-effectiveness. In other words, it was considered that the increase in the performance characteristics of Boreya-B did not justify the costs of its creation, so it was decided to continue the construction of Boreev-A.

How can all this be interpreted?

Option number 1. "Optimistic"


In this case, Borey-A is a full-fledged 4th-generation ship, which really absorbed all the best that domestic science and industry could give it.


The debate between the Ministry of Defense and manufacturers should be considered as a regular, in general, bargaining that always occurs between the seller and the buyer, especially when concluding contracts of this level.

Nevertheless, the Moscow Region decided not to stop there, and after about 7 years, it was considered that an improved modification of the ship could already be obtained. This is absolutely normal practice. For example, the lead US Virginia-type submarine was laid down in 1999, and its fourth modification in a row in 2014, that is, the period between new modifications did not exceed 4 years. But nevertheless, preliminary studies on the Boreya-B showed a relatively low increase in performance characteristics, so it was decided to limit ourselves to the gradual improvement of the Boreya-A without highlighting the newly laid ships in a separate modification.

Does this mean that we are again behind the United States, which is planning to lay a series of “submarine killers” modifications of Block 5, while we continue the serial construction of the SSBN on a project 10 years ago? Maybe - yes, maybe not. The fact is that it is common for our military-industrial complex not to bother with all sorts of “blocks” there. So, for example, the domestic multi-purpose nuclear submarines of Project 971 throughout the construction of the series were constantly improved, so the same Americans distinguish as many as 4 modifications of these ships. But we even have the last ship, the Cheetah, which in its capabilities significantly exceeds the leading Shchuku-B and, apparently, is somewhere between the 3rd and 4th generation in terms of combat potential, it’s still listed as 971.

Option number 2. "As usual"


In this case, the reduction in the price of Borey-A led to the fact that he also became, to a certain extent, a compromise ship, although, of course, more advanced than the Borey. Then, not Borey-A, but Borey-B should be regarded as an attempt to realize the project potential by 100%. Alas, the attempt was unsuccessful, because, due to the general reduction in funding relative to the initial plans, this modification had to be abandoned. And in this case, the fleet will receive a huge series of SSBNs (and the total number of Boreev-A can be brought to 11 units), in which our scientific and technical potential will not be fully realized. But even straining all the forces, we are still in the field of underwater shipbuilding are catching up ....

What actually happens is known only to responsible persons, we can only guess. The author is inclined to the second option. And it’s not at all due to an innate tendency to pessimism, but only because the time spent on developing Boreya-A is too small to solve such a large-scale task.

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220 comments
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  1. +24
    23 December 2019 05: 58
    Thank you very much, dear Andrew, a very interesting (and educational in my case) article, great photos!
    I look forward to continuing.
    1. +4
      23 December 2019 06: 32
      What are some thoughts about breaking ICBMs? The first thing that came to mind, the leading ring cumulative charge, on a segmented substrate, so that the blow would go up more and to the sides, and the fragments (segments) of the substrate would not interfere with the ascent and launch of the rocket
      1. +2
        23 December 2019 06: 48
        There, the thickness of ice is up to several meters normal. You can guess forever. The fact that at 2 meters is acceptable at 4 will no longer work. Plus volley shooting.
        1. +2
          23 December 2019 06: 52
          Quote: garri-lin
          You can guess forever
          Fortune telling is not a thought.
          Quote: garri-lin
          The fact that at 2 meters is acceptable at 4 will no longer work
          . Even icebreakers have limitations.
          1. +3
            23 December 2019 06: 59
            Everything is limited. If Bark was calculated on, say, a thickness of 1 meter of ice, then just a solid fairing and an increase in momentum at the start should be enough. If you had to overcome 3-4 meter ice, then without active systems you can’t get by without any means. And there is no intelligible information about the thickness of ice overcome by Bark in more than one source.
            1. +1
              23 December 2019 07: 27
              Meter ice (fresh water) tanks can hold 60 tons. In principle, he cannot afford a rocket pencil without means of breaking.
              1. -5
                23 December 2019 07: 32
                The tank presses on the ice that lies on the water. A rocket, which, by the way, weighs like a tank, hits with acceleration in the direction of air. Acceleration is more feasible, the fairing is more accurate and it will strike.
                1. +7
                  23 December 2019 08: 07
                  I don’t even know what to answer, if the rocket had the complexity and thickness of the casing comparable to scrap, then yes, disperse it and crap on ice. That's just a rocket more complicated than scrap, and its strength is so-so, even if it is sea-based.
                  1. 0
                    23 December 2019 10: 48
                    You represent the load that a rocket experiences during flight. This is certainly not scrap but not a tin can. The rocket has its own strength. She needs such strength. If the rocket was designed to overcome ice initially, then the strength of the rocket itself was adjusted to overcome ice.
                    1. +10
                      23 December 2019 11: 06
                      Quote: garri-lin
                      Can you imagine the load that a rocket experiences while flying
                      Yes? And what kind of shock load does the ICBM experience in flight, can you tell? Precisely that the tube is not even made of tin, of foil!
                      You seem to have had nothing to do with the ice, so that the rocket simply does not break in half with a small impact, it should have a wall in a centimeter of steel, that such a rocket could throw on a suborbite, a souvenir badge?
                      1. -3
                        23 December 2019 11: 17
                        Since the rocket was originally designed to overcome the ice shell, then measures have been taken. Or do you think that the leading precharge breaking through the ice will not affect the rocket in any way?
                      2. +2
                        23 December 2019 11: 21
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Or do you think that the leading precharge breaking through the ice will not affect the rocket in any way?
                        No, I don’t think so, about the water hammer in the know, and the measures that I personally propose, of course, for this in the form of:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        ring cumulative charge, on a segmented substrate, so that the blow would go up more and go along the sides
                        described.
                      3. -1
                        23 December 2019 14: 08
                        How then to implement salvo firing? Each subsequent rocket will be forced to break through the increasingly uneven thickness of dilapidated ice. Either increase the interval between starts or not even know what. Lateral shifts caused by previous launches may well damage the rocket.
                      4. -1
                        23 December 2019 15: 24
                        Well, yes, with rockets piercing the ice with their own forehead this problem does not arise, of course. Does the RPKSN small move never occur to you?
                      5. 0
                        23 December 2019 15: 56
                        He came. Therefore, I wrote about increasing the firing interval. In general, it will be optimal to undermine the ice field with a torpedo with a low power nuclear power plant, followed by ascent into the ice hole. The place will be immediately spotted of course. But if you focus on speed and automated execution of the procedure, then in "less than 5 minutes" I think you can keep within. Much more versatile solution.
                      6. 0
                        23 December 2019 15: 59
                        My comment was about possible ways to overcome the ROCKET ice; nothing interesting or new was from you.
                      7. -4
                        23 December 2019 16: 01
                        Then start over. What ice? At least thickness and surface. Is the surface flat or hummocky? We omit the rest.
                      8. 0
                        23 December 2019 16: 16
                        Yes please
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        The fact that at 2 meters is acceptable
                        proceed.
                      9. 0
                        23 December 2019 16: 56
                        The fact of the matter is that at 1 meter you can still come up with at least something. But at greater thickness, the ice becomes insurmountable armor. Punching a small hole separately with a directed explosion and then releasing a rocket through it is a half measure for a single launch. And that is unacceptable. This unmasks the boat and does not allow it to realize its full potential. Moreover, a similar system in case of emergency operation can be dangerous for the boat itself. This danger is compounded if the ice is unstable. The ice field is crushed. Breakdown can trigger ice movements. Humming and crawling. Either the rocket is guaranteed to pass through any possible ice of the positional wound or it is half measures. And since, as comments have already pointed out here, the thickness of ice crushed by a submarine should be 2,5 meters, and then the rocket should overcome such a thickness. And this is unrealistic.
                      10. +3
                        23 December 2019 17: 07
                        2 meters are your words, for me 10 cm of ice for a rocket is insurmountable without special equipment.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        This danger is compounded if the ice is unstable. The ice field is crushed. Breakdown can trigger ice movements
                        Here I am convinced that you dealt with ice with a maximum when it is in a glass with a drink.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        In general, it would be optimal to undermine the ice field with a torpedo with an ulcer of low power, followed by ascent into the wormwood

                        And this your phrase about complete insolvency says! At what distance will this explosion be safe for the boat? How long does a boat go to a broken wormwood from a safe distance? But will the explosion provoke an ice movement that you are so afraid of? And a nuclear explosion unmasks the SSBN with a much greater probability than the estimated explosion of 100-200 well, three hundred kg of explosives
                      11. -4
                        23 December 2019 17: 36
                        Two meters it concerned the specifics of the conditions. Terms of Reference, it is usually with specific numbers. My phrase sounded like: milking 2 meters, one for 4 needs a completely different one.
                        In the north it wasn’t. I do not survive from the cold. And I don’t like ice drinks. Prefer a clean drink. And I judge the movements of the ice field from the works written by researchers of the north. In his youth, he liked to read about such expeditions.
                        I think the distance of undermining the YaZ field is 3 kilometers. For a 3 km boat this is not much. Plus ascent. The hull of the boat is very durable. If it is jammed with ice, then this is not a problem. Shoots and under water.
                      12. -4
                        23 December 2019 19: 31
                        Specially trained, trained gnawing ice beavers! Only shh ... military secret
                      13. -1
                        23 December 2019 20: 49
                        Ice will have to be sprayed with wood flavoring. Not suitable.
                      14. -2
                        24 December 2019 19: 06
                        Drain counted!
                      15. 0
                        25 December 2019 03: 36
                        Well, if you imagine that the PLO plane will not circumnavigate the explosion, or something no less nuclear will fly in, or the ice will not move, which you were afraid of and suddenly bang, and forgot, while the SSBN from a safe line approaches the wormwood and pops up then yes
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        Drain counted!
                        with two N.
                        Congratulations, by the way, you just discovered the method of launching rockets from the surface! Although hey ...
                      16. -1
                        25 December 2019 12: 44
                        It is not strange at the present time in a severe ice situation the boat shoots from the surface. Breaks the ice, and shoots. The specifics of the knowers. And it takes a lot more time. What at this time do PLO partner aircraft is unknown. Perhaps photographed submariners pushing ice from the covers of PU.
                      17. 0
                        24 December 2019 00: 37
                        Vladimir_2U Precisely that the tube is not even made of tin, of foil!

                        This is true for liquid rockets, solid fuel is much stronger - the body (coiling) must withstand the slave. engine pressure. Also, they do not have turbopumps, etc. shock-sensitive units.
                      18. 0
                        24 December 2019 19: 06
                        All sorts of users usually do not know what a solid rocket is and where they have a combustion chamber.
                      19. 0
                        25 December 2019 03: 51
                        Inveterate hackers usually consider a three-stage ICBM with a turbojet engine to be something like the RS "Grad", at best, but most likely a crowbar. Only in harsh reality this is not so.
                        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-441.html
                      20. -1
                        25 December 2019 12: 34
                        Good link. And note there are no ring charges to break through the ice. And if we compare the strength of ICBMs and Grad missiles, the latter will obviously be the losers.
                      21. 0
                        25 December 2019 13: 33
                        Excuse me, but I can only compare you with a ram. The link has the words "solid propellant rocket motors for breaking ice"! SYSTEMS! That floats ahead of the rocket! Otherwise, what the hell is her solid propellant. And it should obviously break through the ice not with a mass, and not even with chainsaws! And fuck it.
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        the strength of ICBMs and Grad missiles is clearly the last to lose
                        You, as a curly-haired man with horns, clearly do not understand that a vertical strike will simply crush the undocking nodes of the steps and the rocket will not fly anywhere beyond the pole. Damn, who am I writing this to? Ugh.
                      22. -1
                        25 December 2019 16: 02
                        Sorry, of course. But if it is written a system of breaking ice but not explosion. Probably the fact that the designers were, unlike you, smart and educated people and understood that an explosion capable of breaking through ice would damage both the rocket and possibly even the submarine. Even a very directed explosion in the aquatic environment will cause a water hammer google what it is. Plus, according to your reference, almost all the details and little things, such as brand and quantity of fuel, are indicated in detail. But not a word is indicated about the type of weight of the brand of explosive charge designed to explode ice. Forgot to mention? Unlikely. There is simply no BB there. And the ice cracked and not exploded.
                      23. 0
                        6 January 2020 20: 22
                        Why !!! But the UT club wants to know !!!! Haha ... they will still write horribly cho.
                2. AAK
                  +13
                  23 December 2019 09: 19
                  A colleague, EMNIP, ice reinforcements of the wheelhouse at the 941st project are designed for breaking ice when surfacing with a maximum thickness of no more than 2,5 m, and this with a huge displacement of the boat. The thickness of the walls of the rocket body is not even centimeters, but millimeters, and the body itself is usually made of carbon fiber, and not metal. So imagine the impact force of the body of a 40-ton rocket when surfacing at a speed of 15-20 m / s. 2-3 meter ice, but she doubts the harmonica ...
                  1. +1
                    23 December 2019 16: 20
                    Yes, its 30 centimeters exhausted, what meters!
                3. 0
                  23 December 2019 12: 40
                  Stronger acceleration ....

                  From the bottom of the Mariana Trench?
                  ... more fairing ...

                  How is the tank’s frontal armor plate?
                  Only then the entire rocket hull should not differ much from the fairing. Otherwise, it deforms when it hits the ice. In principle, such a missile projectile (penetrating at least meter ice) can be made. But just how much mass will remain on the payload?
                4. +3
                  23 December 2019 17: 12
                  For a diver, swim up into ice-covered wormwood ...
                  It’s almost impossible to break even thin ice from below. So just stupidly rocket body - the idea is so-so.
              2. +3
                23 December 2019 14: 13
                The tank is a pretty "flat" thing, EMNIP has a standard since Soviet times: the specific pressure per 1 cm square of the tank is less than that of the average Komsomol member in heels.
                1. +2
                  23 December 2019 15: 05
                  Notice a colleague in high heels! )))
                  1. +11
                    23 December 2019 16: 16
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Notice a colleague in high heels! )))

                    I heard that the pressure on the Komsomol member can be quite strong ... for someone who is under her heel :)))))
              3. 0
                24 December 2019 10: 56
                The tank tracks are designed to distribute the load over the area. If you put a long peak on the rocket fairing ... it will pierce any ice. 80t rockets, and the tank doesn’t have a decree with their 60th.
            2. +4
              23 December 2019 14: 22
              Possibility of ice launch of Barque ... It was a duck for "probable friends".
              Even with the technologies available today, it is not possible to realize an ice start.
              1. 0
                23 December 2019 23: 59
                Most likely so. If the ice could be broken so easily, ours would not have made huge atomic icebreakers. Would manage with something simpler.
              2. 0
                15 January 2020 00: 11
                Do not know do not write. I do not want to reveal secrets to amers, although they wrote on VO. Shoot 100%. It's not a duck.
            3. 0
              7 January 2020 12: 33
              Quote: garri-lin
              If Bark relied on, say, a thickness of 1 meter of ice

              I came across a figure of 2,5 meters.
      2. +5
        23 December 2019 20: 02
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        What are some thoughts about breaking ICBMs? The first thing that came to mind, the leading ring cumulative charge, on a segmented substrate

        Judging by the well-known publications, it was planned that way - a shaped charge piercing the "well" for a safe start, but unfortunately this has never been tested in practice.
        The trouble with the Bark program is that initially, even in the previous Typhoon program, the Makeev Design Bureau, having no experience in designing solid-fuel missiles, entered into cooperation with the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau. Moreover, in the R-39 Typhoon project, two stages (first and second) from the Molodets rocket of the Yuzhny Design Bureau (from the BZHRK) were used. These stages were also assembled and equipped with fuel in Ukraine - in the city of Pavlograd at the PMZ (fuel for them was produced at the Pavlograd chemical plant of the PCZ). Therefore, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, cooperation at first became very difficult, and then became completely impossible. PCZ really switched to household chemicals - paints, varnishes, polyurethane foam and even toothpaste (of terrible quality) ... By the way, those same R-39s were brought for disposal later, again to Pavlograd ...
        Competence on solid-propellant rockets remained in Russia only in Votkinsk and the Moscow Institute of Thermal Engineering. By the way, it was MIT that developed solid fuel for PCZ and Yuzhmash, so with proper will and funding, work on Bark could be continued in cooperation with the Votkinsk plant ... but it was occupied by Topol-M, and Solomonov decided to pick up the whole rocket subject for himself ... And the results ... Andrey described the results more than eloquently.
        As an excuse for the decision, we can only accept that the Votkinsk plant was simply not ready (with its production facilities) to switch to a completely new topic for it ... Although it had good connections with the CB Yuzhnoye for the exchange of experience ...

        Sorry for "Bark", sorry for "Sharks", sorry for the time and money spent on the "Bulava", which took so long to give birth ... But now it is she - "Bulava", our main hope for the future of the submarine fleet. God grant that "Borei-A" justifies the hopes placed on it.
      3. bar
        -1
        23 December 2019 20: 47
        What are some thoughts about breaking ICBMs?

        What is now to speculate about thoughts, even if it did not come to throw tests. Some dreams ... In general, "bark" is 146% a victim of perestroika. The project was not funded, the work was stalled, the project 941, for which they were intended to replace the P-39, did not wait for them and it was written off. The hefty "barges" did not climb onto smaller "dolphins" ... So the transition to a smaller "mace" is quite logical, although it probably did not go without intrigue.
      4. 0
        24 December 2019 12: 19
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        What are some thoughts about breaking ICBMs


        And I immediately had another thought:
        Pop-up shockproof container with a rocket inside. Well, the overclocking unit does not hurt to properly disperse this container. Bark + container, this is under 100 tons, but at high speed - it will break through any ice.
        After the upper part of the container exits above the ice surface, the container lid is shot back. And a rocket starts from it.

        When using a container, another option is possible.
        A container with a rocket slowly pops up, maintaining a vertical position. When the head of the container rests on ice, a heat generating device is switched on, using chemical fuel.
        To melt 2-3 meter ice, with a diameter of a half-meter of 3 meters, in principle, not much energy is needed. Too lazy to consider, but the equivalent of burning 200 liters of gasoline should be enough. Given the total weight of the structure under 100 tons, quite moderate figures.
        The process of melting ice will take 5-10 minutes. Then the container pops up in the wormwood, shoots off the top and the rocket starts.
        1. 0
          24 December 2019 12: 44
          Quote: Serg4545
          heat generating device
          There is such a "device", it is called a termite, why not, but a container ?! It will not save a rocket from concussion when ramming ice, or it must be comparable in complexity to ground-based missile silos, with their depreciation systems. But even that is bullshit. what do you think an SSBN mine should be to launch a container (a real mine!) with a rocket? So 941 projects will seem like a pot-bellied trifle! We must set realistic goals, comrades! ))
    2. +1
      23 December 2019 16: 15
      Greetings, dear Valentine, glad you liked it! And a separate Grand Merci for information on the shields that the American battleships pounded on. In my IMHO in the 30s, there was a special difference between "standing" and "towed at a constant speed without maneuvering" (otherwise they simply could not tow)
    3. 0
      6 January 2020 20: 19
      There is absolutely nothing enlightening in it. Coached from various sources ... often dubious like this article.
      And the pictures .. ?? Photos will go. They probably did the pros))))
      I am especially pleased to read novice model designers ... Boys !! Have you really never read the history and purpose of pr 941? Everything is there !!!
  2. -1
    23 December 2019 07: 08
    One of the initial defects of the Bark was not the drop of the bow protective plate when the missile exited the water. What specific role that plate played in overcoming the ice, we do not know, but most likely it was as an element of a kind of ramming.
    1. -1
      23 December 2019 08: 34
      It is possible to overcome the sludge (possibly), after breaking through a wormwood with an explosion
      1. +4
        24 December 2019 01: 08
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        It is possible to overcome the sludge (possibly), after breaking through a wormwood with an explosion

        A hole breaks through for the boat to emerge into the NP and the shooting goes from the surface position. 941 project broke the ice with its hull and fired from the NP. 667 BDRMs also surfaced ... But they broke the ice in the "gullies", not so thick - 1,5-1,8 m ...


        1. 0
          24 December 2019 11: 13
          Previously wrote.
          Cancer boat, two combat torpedoes up. Then the ascent ..
          Baltin precisely for this GSS received at the transition from the Northern Fleet and the development of this. I personally heard from him how all this was.
          1. +2
            24 December 2019 16: 42
            Quote: Polinom
            Cancer boat, two combat torpedoes up.

            Elks and Virginias are already entering our ice "pastures" on a regular basis. And now imagine in wartime the explosion of 2 torpedoes under the ice ... It will be far away to hear the heroes-submariners, who are going to strike retaliation ... Again, it is not known what size the hole will be, and how large fragments of ice floes will float in it.
            Therefore, it is better from NP, and preferably - in one gulp, at worst - in series of 4 ...
            1. -1
              24 December 2019 16: 58
              This is in the area of ​​the joint venture ... Year 1982-4 ... Too lazy to look. Baltin told me at the ZKP "Razvilka" during the exercises, in my opinion the summer is 1986. At night on duty is boring. He was sitting without getting out, since at the ZKP only he and Gurinov (Kom fl) had the right to smoke. There is also about the corners and guarantees of the industry, so that everything does not go from the foundation. It wasn't very safe to turn up your nose either.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          24 December 2019 19: 55
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          667 BDRMs also surfaced ... But they broke the ice in the "gullies", not so thick - 1,5-1,8 m ...

          In 1989 we surfaced (Tregubovtsy), I couldn't jump up the hump to the top of the "fragment". Visually, the pieces were three meters high. But we crushed all the glass in the guardrail, damaged the wheelhouse guardrail in the front end, there were 4 symmetrical decent holes, the handrails pressed into the rubber. Then it was not at all comfortable to stand on the bridge.

          If in series, then after the first series they are likely to cover. While everything is in its original form, while for the next prepare yourself ...
        3. 0
          9 January 2020 16: 51
          project 941 = Typhoon =
          1. 0
            13 January 2020 11: 25
            Not everything is written about.
            1. 0
              13 January 2020 13: 34
              Quote: VALENTIN-37
              Not everything is written about.

              Why, they write. After this trip, the boat went into repair and no matter how it was written off (?).
              Therefore, the desire to have a rocket, which can shoot right through the ice, is understandable.
              But the project 941 boat, thanks to its enormous buoyancy, at least had the ability to surface and shoot. And what can modern boats with "Bulava" do in such a case? most likely, they will not be on duty under the ice, although it is under the ice that it is easier than in the open ocean to hide the strategist.
  3. -7
    23 December 2019 09: 07
    Perhaps the only drawback of the Bark was its mass, which reached 81 tons. No matter how terrible the Bark was, the Trident II still remained the leader, having 2,8 tons of cast weight with a mass of 59 tons,

    It would seem that the conclusion suggests itself - “Bark” was technically backward compared to “Trident”, and even with a delay of 20 years.
    Obviously, there is no sense in continuing the development of such a hopeless system, especially since the key industries (fuels) are over?
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 16: 16
      If “Bark” had been able to defend in 1998, the Russian Navy would have received a much more advanced missile in the early 2000s, spending much less money on its development, and also saved on the further development of liquid-based SLBMs. At the same time, the basis of the strategic nuclear forces of the country in the late 90s and to this day could be 6 Sharks with the support of several Dolphins, and not Dolphins with the support of Kalmar
      --
      who would use that lever of power? who needed Bark-BoreySineva then? "we will buy everything and agree with everyone"
      1. +2
        23 December 2019 20: 07
        It is strange that in general the weapon of retaliation has survived. The team of traitors sawed and cut the "nightmare" of the Freemasons with unquenchable zeal.
    2. +2
      23 December 2019 16: 17
      Quote: Mestny
      Obviously, it makes no sense to continue developing such a hopeless system

      And that's why they cut down the equally hopeless "Bulava"? :)))
      1. +6
        23 December 2019 20: 21
        Andrey, the article is not bad. I hope that the links to the magazines helped, as they fought to maintain production, otherwise there would be no Sineva or Liner now. In my opinion, there are several points. 941 projects and BDRM ... They are just different. What is 941 more perfect than BDRM? If we talk about the main complex, the 3M-37 is better than the 3M-65 product in all respects. And in terms of range, and mass characteristics, and payload. If we talk about the accident rate, then the 3M-37 has never led to some kind of emergency situation, especially to an accident, but it was on the Akula. I'm not talking about the first Behemoth, there was a miscalculation by the designers and the product was abnormal. During the Soviet era, party bosses always had an eye to the west. They have a "solid" rocket, why don't we? Go ahead! We will catch up and overtake! And the fact that the Americans cannot make a normal liquid engine for products is also a fact. Then, after all, solid and liquid rockets have their own characteristics, positive and negative qualities. And where does the impression come from that solid rockets are just so safe? Remember how many solid-fuel rockets exploded in arsenals. Yes, only in Severomorsk in Okolnaya on May 17, 1984, it banged so that they thought the third world war had begun. Solid propellant rockets exploded. And even if the first stages are solid fuel, the third stage or delivery stage still has a liquid engine, as is done on a number of products, including the 3M-65. The disadvantage of a liquid-propellant rocket is poisonous components. This is solved by the rocket ampulization and proper operation. In Sinev, those shortcomings that were on the early products are practically resolved. Don't hit the rocket, don't jump at it with a drill, just follow the instructions when loading and unloading, and everything will be fine. As far as I heard, the Makeyevites were also developing a mortar launch for a liquid-propellant rocket. And after all, you also need to understand that when shooting with a sharp exit of the product from the mine, you need to win the boat at the starting depth, but the masses change so sharply that you need to somehow replace these masses, otherwise the boat will either be thrown to the surface, or there will be a dip in depth. 667 projects have a whole system of tanks and pumps for this purpose. Well yes, the pumps are noisy, the water is noisy. This is a big drawback, but with each new complex this moment is being improved. Begemot-2 showed what these boats are capable of. Why did the Americans never shoot more than 4 in a volley? And the following facts are interesting. The Americans are developing their next SSBN for 16 missiles. Heptyl and amil were used not only by us, but also by the Americans and the French. The latter were even once supplied with these components.

        And further. At a briefing for foreign attaches on December 16, First Deputy Defense Minister Valery Gerasimov said that the Makeyevites were developing a liquid rocket for the next generation submarine.
        1. +2
          24 December 2019 16: 06
          Good evening, dear Andrey, and thanks for the information!
          Quote: Andrey NM
          What is 941 more perfect than the BDRM?

          As I understand it, in secrecy, that is, 941 wins in low noise and, possibly, in other physical fields. About noise - I came across this opinion more than once, including from submarine officers.
          Quote: Andrey NM
          Then, after all, solid and liquid missiles have their own characteristics, positive and negative qualities. And where did the opinion that solid rockets are so safe?

          Honestly, the question of whether we needed solid-fuel rockets, I, on reflection, left out the scope of the article - it turned out to be very long. And I agree with your assessment.
          Quote: Andrey NM
          And further. At a briefing for foreign attaches on December 16, First Deputy Defense Minister Valery Gerasimov said that the Makeyevites were developing a liquid rocket for the next generation submarine.

          Thanks, but this is definitely not for Borea-B.
          1. +2
            24 December 2019 18: 28
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Honestly, the question of whether we needed solid-fuel rockets, I, on reflection, left out the scope of the article

            Andrey, they say that the solid have a faster prelaunch and shorter active site. And these are important factors. There's a meaning. But after the collapse of the union, we lost the enterprises for the production of solid fuels, as well as the southern republics with their cotton, which, as I heard, is used for the production of solid fuel rockets. Well, chemists should be asked around, let us be enlightened.
            About the noise. Rudolph said that they led the 941st AOKS normally, and they lost the BDRMs under the same conditions. There are twice as much iron in the Shark, respectively, and there must be more disturbances in physical fields.
            What are the new products for, who knows? Vaughn K-140 (project 667A boat) was first with the D-5 complex, and then they put solid products on it. And with other projects there were similar things. Ohio, too, were first SSBNs, and now SSGNs. Did they make a few pieces for Tomahawks? The point is to "collective farm" a whole series of boats under an incomprehensible flying rocket. Well, if only for the sake of cutting money and undermining defenses.
        2. 0
          24 December 2019 16: 28
          And why have Americans more than 4 pieces in a volley never fired?
          What for? Check the rocket.
          And ask where the SSBN went after the "Behemoth" and how much it was in the plant.
          Ponte they are worth a lot.
          For Okolnoy reason they did not find out. There were several options.
          1. 0
            24 December 2019 18: 16
            After Hippopotamus 2 usual planned activities. Yegorov’s crew went into autonomous mode and a few days before the end of the military service they collided in an underwater position with an American boat. I was seconded to them in the period after the shooting until the autonomy briefly. I don’t remember the exact date now. This is in 1992. Then, with a hole in the starboard side, they stuck on the pier for a long time. And here is the first hippo - there were questions.
            Quote: Polinom
            What for? Check the rocket.

            You can check the rocket with a single launch. These are the so-called control serial tests. And by firing a series of missiles, the operation of the complex and the behavior of the carrier are checked. But only in Ohio, 20 missiles and the launch of four missiles will not give a complete picture of behavior. Well, let's say the shooting started, part of the ammunition went out, and then the spacecraft fell out of the starting corridor, the rest were canceled. What's next? Can they be reused? What to do with the pressure in the annular gap? Will the membranes survive? Surely there are some kind of pressurization, ampoule batteries, all sorts of gyroscopes need to be unwound again. In the meantime, you will re-start the hurdy-gurdy, some "Wolf" or "Cheetah" from the 24th division will neutralize you, because when the pressure accumulators in the bahali, they were making noise throughout the ocean. And another such moment. Ohio shoots from a depth of 25-30 meters, and 941 and 667BDRM from a depth of about 50 meters. For Shark and BDRM, 25 meters is almost periscope depth. The Shark will probably even have a deckhouse sticking out of the water. R-39 and R-29RM launch their engines already in the water, and Trident when it jumps out of the water. If the Trident is launched from 50 meters, then this is an extra 20 meters on inertia from a pressure accumulator with a loss of speed. How will this "pencil" behave there? Will it fail or not? On the 941, such a battery weighed half a ton, bangs to push the rocket out, so the engine starts up almost immediately. For a dry start, the amers have a membrane, and on the Shark - ARSS.
            According to Okolnaya they just didn’t speak. But here is the interesting thing. After all, liquid rockets were also stored there. So none even leaked, all whole. This is with such an explosion in the immediate vicinity. But they lie on the lodges, there the load points are not so distributed as the depreciation belts on the boat.
            1. 0
              24 December 2019 19: 38
              Quote: Andrey NM
              But only Ohio rockets 20 pieces

              I will correct or supplement myself. In general, there are 24 mines there, but on some hulls the missile silos have been converted into airlock chambers, some are blocked by a "hinge", etc., so I wrote that.
            2. 0
              31 December 2019 19: 51
              After Hippopotamus 2 usual planned activities.
              I will not argue, I am TOFovsky. But your flagship and chief, former, (Shtefanov) told me a little differently. How the boat "took" after the shooting.
              1. 0
                1 January 2020 09: 36
                Flagship then were Popov in the flotilla and Ivanenko in the division. Among their assistants, the Stefanovs do not remember. The head of the URA was Stories.
                1. +1
                  9 January 2020 15: 18
                  Not all information about the consequences of the Hippos becomes available to the press.
                  1. 0
                    10 January 2020 10: 06
                    Quote: VALENTIN-37
                    Not all information about the consequences of the Hippos becomes available to the press.

                    What relation to the Behemoths is the navigational officer who served in Gremikha in 1991? From Gremikhan then the commander of the 11th flotilla Viktor Pavlovich Agafonov had a greater relation to the Behemoths, and that was only because until 1987 he commanded the 13th division in Olenya Guba. Under him came the first three BDRMs, including K-84 (the first "Begemot"), "Tula" and the following came under Shilin and Makeev. Then the ships did not have names, only tactical numbers.
                    A funny moment. During the times of the command, the deer-pliers were sometimes jokingly called the Chinese, and the division commander, in consonance with the surname, was called Hua Guofeng. When Yu.K. Shilin became the division commander, Olenya Guba was called "Shilinburg", and when Makeev - "Makeevka". And they all became "Indians" because Makeev had the nickname "Makenna". Do you remember Makenna's Gold?
                    1. 0
                      13 January 2020 11: 22
                      The navigator shoots, rockets provide his brain.
                      A connection, and friends, and the exchange of information? How, for example, were the firing.? What is not included in the official report on MS?
                    2. END
                      0
                      12 January 2021 19: 47
                      About Behemoth.
                      "I would very much like to know the true value, meaning and practical use of the exercise experience in the future. For example, recommendations to SSBN commanders. Changes to training programs in Paldiski. Development of methods of using firing in the Combat Training Commands of the fleets."
                      "HEGEMOTE" THAT FEARED ...
                      https://valcat-8.livejournal.com/#asset-valcat_8-37804
        3. END
          0
          12 January 2021 19: 43
          Yes, only in Severomorsk in Okolnaya on May 17, 1984, it banged so that they thought the third world war had begun. Solid propellant rockets exploded.
          ))) The sailors smoked, smoked ... And then they told ... There the pit remained 50 meters deep.
    3. 0
      24 December 2019 13: 33
      Violation of technology at the design stage ...
      It's my opinion..
      You will find it completely, if interested ...
      "... The American solid-propellant 'Polaris' was put into service in 1960. The stage housings were made of heat-resistant stainless vanadium steel. At that time, the missile warhead had antiaircraft penetration means, decoys and jammers.

      A submerged rocket is launched after equalizing the air pressure in the missile silo with the outboard water pressure by opening special valves and filling the silo with air. The so-called 'dry start'.

      The impossibility of technically creating a reliable solid-propellant rocket forced our designers to follow the path of designing liquid-propellant rockets. The R-13 missile, created simultaneously with the Polaris, was three times inferior in range, and exactly four times. Well, the start could only be made from the surface. The throw weight was three times that of the Polaris, but this was due to the need due to the greater mass of the charge. Well, it's clear that the heavier the charge, the shorter the range. It's like the riddle of a Japanese at an electronics exhibition - 'And what is clenched in my fist?' .. 'Well, probably a computer ...' .. 'That's right ... how many pieces?'.

      Work in the direction of creating liquid-fuel rockets, with time, has borne fruit. In many respects, our missiles were not inferior to the US. We will not discuss the benefits of solid and liquid fuels. The main thing is that success has been achieved in the chosen direction.

      The next generation of Poseidon missiles in the United States began to be made of fiberglass. That is, this is a transition from steel to plastic in the line of solid fuel rockets. It is important. By 1974, an accuracy of 400 meters was achieved and the number of warheads was brought to 10 pieces in a package of the 'Bus' type, that is, the gradual shooting of warheads as the platform itself moves. We came to this after 10 years.

      By 1974, the R-27 missile, the D-5 complex of Makeev’s design bureau, was adopted. Missile body made of aluminum - magnesium alloys. Wet start, the mine was flooded with water before launching the rocket. In addition, the blocks were pressurized from the inside and a special belt of rubber shock absorbers was installed.

      Again. Alloy rocket. Flooding before the start. Aspiration and shock absorbers. This is all to prevent deformation. A total of 492 missile launches were carried out, of which 429 were recognized as successful. This is a record figure among other missiles. Poseidon's reliability was 84% ​​..........

  4. +4
    23 December 2019 09: 45
    Alas, for a number of objective reasons, the USSR, which created a number of remarkable liquid ballistic missiles, lagged behind the United States in the field of solid fuel.
    Andrei, he didn’t lag behind and didn’t even try to make solid-fuel rockets in the beginning, the USSR had a different concept on this score, but when he realized that there were a lot of maintenance problems with liquid rockets, it turned out that creating a solid-fuel rocket was not so simple and the main problem was exactly with the creation of fuel the desired characteristics.
  5. +1
    23 December 2019 09: 58
    An interesting article on how the marine component of the triad does not develop optimally.
  6. +8
    23 December 2019 10: 05
    As far as I remember, from the press, the mace was adopted by Serdyukov’s personal order, and not according to the test results. At the time of adoption, there were about 40% of successful launches. In Soviet times, it should be 80%. Extreme firing, a pair of missiles, when one flew to the target, the second did not (while trying to say about some secret mission of the second rocket)))) that it wouldn’t reach the target), in my opinion it speaks of reliability of only 50 % And in Soviet times it would not have been adopted. And the gigantic dimensions of all our solid-fuel rockets in comparison with the American ones stem from the backlog as solid fuel and gunpowder in general ..
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        23 December 2019 14: 02
        But what about the shield of the Motherland?
        1. +2
          23 December 2019 16: 18
          a shield of the Motherland? - hangs in the Kremlin, on the wall of the St. George Hall (?)
          1. +2
            23 December 2019 16: 26
            there’s nothing to hope for ?:
      2. +1
        23 December 2019 18: 43
        Not accepted, no order to be adopted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      23 December 2019 16: 02
      At the time of adoption, there were about 40% of successful launches.

      Well, what 40% are all in open sources, why are you lying?
      She generally didn’t have any moment; 40% were not successful
    3. +4
      23 December 2019 16: 19
      Quote: V.I.P.
      At the time of adoption, there were about 40% of successful launches.

      More precisely, 25 successful out of 32.
      1. +2
        23 December 2019 18: 12
        well, that is 78% laughing
        but you really want some less laughing
        but it’s better that they wouldn’t be adopted at all
        and minus from anger powerless ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. +1
          24 December 2019 11: 36
          Real statistics will not be so rosy.

          AHA OF WHOLE ONE partially successful (twenty-seventh)
          AND TWO allegedly failures on the prelaunch (fifteenth and sixteenth).
          But even your methodology 68% is not even close 40%
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +2
              24 December 2019 13: 24
              Firstly, there are more partially successful ones.

              What are these (numbers please)? I use open sources. If you have your own then of course, you are right, but something I doubt your unbridled courage laughing
              In the best case: the launch is canceled due to meteorological conditions or difficult ice conditions.

              I counted them, so I wrote supposedly.

              Once again, I calculated from open sources that everything was partially successful before being adopted. And all the delayed starts. Indicated their numbers. Do you have other data?
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. -1
                  25 December 2019 12: 34
                  Honestly, I'm tired.

                  Tired, then why was it starting.
                  If you are not ready to justify which launches were unsuccessful and EVEN call the "true" percentage, then there is simply nothing to discuss ...
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  7. 5-9
    0
    23 December 2019 10: 31
    2,8 tons, 11000 km Trident has no "and" or ", the rocket is excellent, but the sturgeon needs to be cut ... well, in real life there are 4 BB, and 14 - only on paper and was not.
    The solid-fuel Mace has a plus - a shorter AUT, which in the era of missile defense missiles on Amer EMs in theory, if even not capable, it is quite possible in the future, able to hit a rocket on takeoff.
    1. +1
      23 December 2019 16: 21
      Quote: 5-9
      2,8 tons, 11000 km at Trident not "and" a "or"

      With your permission, I didn’t write anything like that. I have indicated the maximum cast weight and maximum range. But I never said that the Trident will fly to the maximum range with maximum weight :)))))
      1. +2
        23 December 2019 20: 28
        2,8 tons, 11000 km Trident has no "and" or ", the rocket is excellent, but the sturgeon needs to be cut ... well, in real life there are 4 BB, and 14 - only on paper and was not.

        never said that the Trident will fly to the maximum range with maximum weight :)))))

        At a distance of 11000 km Trident2 flies with a load of 800 kg. With 2800 kg it flies over 8000 km, which is also not a little. Blue at maximum range was tested with a load of 2000 kg. This information was on the website of GRKTs im. Makeeva. And this is 11547 km. With a load of 2800 kg, a range of more than 9000 km. Most likely somewhere a little more than this tsiferka. Also normal.

        The number of warheads was limited by contract. The Americans controlled this issue, came to our bases and we showed them the equipment of the products. Ours also controlled. I can’t say how this has been organized since the mid-90s.
        1. 5-9
          -1
          24 December 2019 07: 16
          Thanks for the clarification.
          About the number of BBs: in addition to contractual restrictions, there are also technical and the very presence and performance of these BBs. In light of the possible death of strategic offensive arms, the entornets like to scare themselves (or us) by the fact that the Americans will take 14 BB and "rashkekirdyk", and they never stood and these blocks, which on paper in the amount of 14 climbed, never stood, they do not exist today and rather they were not efficient.
      2. 5-9
        -1
        24 December 2019 07: 11
        I have clarified. For our missiles, "and" is usually given, and for them - "or"
        1. 0
          24 December 2019 08: 20
          The R-29RM missile was equipped with 4BB, and could carry 10. But under the agreement there were 4 pieces. This information is online.

          And in terms of the range of Trident2 and Sineva, one must also take into account that Sineva is one and a half times lighter. This shows the advantages of liquid-propellant rockets in terms of energy and mass characteristics over solid-fuel ones. But I always say that liquid-propellant and solid-propellant missiles have their pros and cons, and you must always make a choice between these moments, and also do what you can do better, all other things being equal. We make liquid rocket engines better, they are solid propellants. LRE is also used in the space industry. Therefore, they buy the RD-180 from us, and not we from them. Solid rocket motor in this case can be used as stage 1 accelerators, no more. Well, the Americans used it. In 1986, the Challenger was killed by a solid propellant booster.
  8. +4
    23 December 2019 10: 44
    Solid-fuel SLBM "Bark" developed by the Makeev GRTs in the 1990s did not go into mass production for a simple reason - the planned solid fuel of the second and third stages (ammonium dinitramide and aluminum hydride) was produced only at the Pavlograd chemical plant, which remained in Ukraine and was redesigned for the production of household chemicals. An attempt to use solid fuel based on HMX in the second and third stages led to a fall by a quarter of the specified range.

    The Project 955 nuclear submarine was redesigned for the Bulava solid-propellant SLBM developed by the MIT, which has not yet reached the specified parameters in terms of range and throw weight. Therefore, the implementation of the improved project 955 will not lead to anything positive without changing the rocket, which MIT is not yet able to do.

    Therefore, the RF Ministry of Defense is considering the implementation of project 2028B from 955 with a new liquid-fuel rocket GRTs Makeev, the performance characteristics of which should exceed the Trident-II indicators (similar to the existing Sineva and Liner SLBMs).

    PS The optimal solution in the field of the naval component of the Russian strategic nuclear forces is the rejection of the cargo cult (construction of SSBNs) and the transition to serial production of the Poseidon rocket launcher (300-400 units), which will allow for three orders of magnitude of the power of nuclear charges.
    1. +3
      23 December 2019 16: 22
      Quote: Operator
      An attempt to use solid fuel based on HMX in the second and third stages led to a fall by a quarter of the set range.

      Not a quarter, but significantly less. At the same time, Bark remained longer-range "Bulava"
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation is considering the implementation of the project 2028B with a new liquid-fuel rocket of the Makeeva mall since 955

      Project 955-B was closed a long time ago, and no one was ever going to put a liquid rocket on it
      1. +1
        23 December 2019 16: 33
        It’s useful to read the Runet - a representative of the Russian Ministry of Defense recently explained (in terms of type of fuel) the official message of the Russian Ministry of Defense about planning to develop a new SLBM after the end of the current GPV 2021-27.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. -1
          23 December 2019 19: 55
          Wangyu: in the future there will be no upgraded Bulava, no new Miass SLBM, no SSBNs as such - the statements of the RF Ministry of Defense are demonstratively illogical.
        2. +2
          23 December 2019 20: 36
          Hi Rudolph. With regard to the new liquid rocket, the decision was announced a long time ago, about 2 years ago. In my opinion, I already wrote to you about this.

          It is interesting here the other day they wrote about a floating nuclear power plant, which is in Chukotka. And about the development of a new floating nuclear power plant with a capacity of 100 megawatts. Then I remembered the total capacity of the power plant of my "steamer" ... He smiled. Just think, almost 2 times more powerful than this nuclear power plant ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. +1
              24 December 2019 13: 29
              On a submarine would be the same, but then on an electric motor.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +1
                  24 December 2019 14: 14
                  I'm just about complete, without GTZA. I have an idea for a fix - a small circuit board with electric movement. The faceted stealth hull, as in the case of Estate, is a single-hull, a water washer, bow and airborne GAS, a reconnaissance anti-aircraft gun, so as not to climb into dangerous areas themselves, a natural circulation reactor, etc.

                  About electric motors in the course, of course.
    2. +1
      23 December 2019 18: 36
      300-400 units

      400 units of Poseidons are 400 nuclear reactors.
      The USSR and the Russian Federation have not done so much for all the time.
      1. -2
        23 December 2019 19: 58
        The order of figures for the produced domestic reactors and the required reactors for the Poseidons is the same - with an order of magnitude smaller in mass-dimensional and power indicators of the latter.
        1. +1
          23 December 2019 20: 10
          The order of numbers for the produced domestic reactors and the required reactors for the Poseidons is the same

          Yeah for 60 years laughing
          Now the rhythm 200 is doing 2 a year, well, maybe 4.
          Nothing like a 100-year state arms program laughing
          Yes, for 400 reactors, even fuel elements cannot be made in a reasonable amount of time.
          In general, your imagination is rich.
    3. +1
      24 December 2019 22: 56
      "PS The optimal solution in the field of the naval component of the Russian strategic nuclear forces is the rejection of the cargo cult (construction of SSBNs) and the transition to serial production of the Poseidon missile launcher (300-400 units), which will allow for the same number of carriers (missiles / NSA) by three orders of magnitude of the power of nuclear charges ". I guess this is the most valuable comment on this page.
  9. +2
    23 December 2019 10: 48
    A good analytical article with a clear opinion of the author ... there would be more such
  10. +8
    23 December 2019 10: 55
    In fact, the only reason for the low weight of the “Mace” was precisely its unification with land complexes. Of course, for mobile launchers, not every ton is critical, but every kilogram of the weight of the rocket mounted on them. But at sea, such severe restrictions are not needed, so it can be said that unification has become a drawback rather than a dignity of the Bulava.

    Hehehehe ... I immediately recall the history of designing, etc. 1164. They also thought that the addition of less than a meter of length and less than a ton of mass to the rocket does not mean anything.
    Thus, the dimensions of the missiles again directly "crawled out" through the ship. “Armed men” did not understand this at all: “Just think, they added“ just something ”(!) Less than a meter of length and less than a ton (!) Of weight” (meaning a new rocket). Looking ahead, we note that these “only something” cost the ship an extra 13 m of length, 2,3 m of width and 2700 of displacement.
    © Cousin
    The fact is that a dozen Barks would have a maximum abandoned weight of 36,6 tons, but sixteen Bulava SLBMs that ultimately received our latest SSBNs — only 18,4 tons.

    There is one question - how was the throw weight calculated for each of the SLBMs? EMNIP, there are two methods - one includes the "bus" in the thrown mass, and the second takes into account only the mass of the warheads themselves.
  11. -7
    23 December 2019 11: 12
    Posted by Razbinik !!!!
    he would have to get news somewhere in Ukro to drive his snowstorm there. Peremogi would be written every day by the R-39UTTH "Bark" - it had many shortcomings, and some of these shortcomings were unrecoverable, without a complete redevelopment ... That is, the creation of a rocket from 0 ....
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 16: 22
      Quote: Alex Fox
      and some of these shortcomings were irreparable, without a complete redevelopment

      And which ones? :))))
  12. +3
    23 December 2019 11: 16
    Do I need to remind you that an "engineering product" (tm) of this level is always the fruit of compromise? Thus, there can be no "engineering ideals". Moreover, they are rather harmful, because in the pursuit of "engineering ideality" practical benefits are lost.

    RF was really necessary put into operation new SSBNs (Borei) with new missiles, albeit with insufficiently cool performance characteristics. This was dictated by the international situation and martial law. And, of course, the economic and social situation of the defense industry enterprises. To view "weapons systems" of this level outside the context of the international situation, military necessities, the situation in the defense industry and only as an "engineering product" is a false path.
    (Are the American LST 1942 tank landing ships ideal? Ahaha. But we would have at least a dozen of these at the Black Sea Fleet at the same time ...)

    Directorate of "armory houses" (tm) should periodically bend over and squeeze. For - are prone to fucking. This is the harsh prose of life. For some time, for some time, the RF managed to do it.

    Do I need to remind you that the Russian nuclear triad hangs not only on SSBNs, but also on "land" ICBMs? And if something does not go to the SLBM, then it goes to the ICBM. Can't put Vanguards on Maces? Xxx! We put on mine, or even ground, ICBMs. And we'll see.

    Once again, don't focus only on the "engineering" component.
    1. +3
      23 December 2019 16: 23
      Quote: Private-K
      The Russian Federation was extremely necessary to put into operation new SSBNs (Boreas) with new, albeit not sufficiently steep, TTX missiles. This was dictated by the international situation and martial law.

      Moreover, it was necessary to bring Bark, and not to create a mace with a 12-15 year delay
      1. +1
        23 December 2019 18: 10
        This is now, with aftertaste, we can probably complain like that.
        And at the time when the decision was made, the situation could dictate.
        We cannot know all, or even parts of the then fundamentally important details of being. People acted in that environment and with the information that they had.
        1. +1
          24 December 2019 16: 01
          Quote: Private-K
          And at the time when the decision was made, the situation could dictate.

          Either bring to mind the existing rocket with the help of a developer with many years of experience in creating SLBMs, or transfer the development to MIT, which has to make a rocket from scratch without having the slightest experience in creating SLBMs. You are right, the situation really dictated the correct answer. But he was not accepted, for some reason
  13. 0
    23 December 2019 11: 19
    Dear Author! Very good review! The only big + Clubs, they, unlike the R-29, are Solid Fuel!
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        22 January 2020 18: 13
        And Plus, you yourself will determine when the Heptyl from R-29 flows during the Bombing!
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. 0
            22 January 2020 18: 19
            Dear on this case, at least 2 SSRNs of the Russian Navy were lost!
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. -1
                2 July 2020 11: 20
                1 SSBN in 1986, the second earlier in the 1970s. In collisions with the American PLA-Hunter Heptyl from R-29 Tech ?!
                1. The comment was deleted.
  14. +4
    23 December 2019 11: 25
    Quote: Operator
    PS The optimal solution in the field of the naval component of the Russian strategic nuclear forces is the rejection of the cargo cult (construction of SSBNs) and the transition to serial production of the Poseidon rocket launcher (300-400 units), which will allow for three orders of magnitude of the power of nuclear charges.

    I would call it a philosophical mistake. hi
    The more diverse the threats, the more difficult it is to counter them.
    To rely on only "Poseidons" - to simplify the life of the enemy. After a while, having concentrated his efforts, he will learn to parry them. And you will no longer be able to restore the production of SSBNs (which, by the way, was almost lost in the 90s - you managed to catch yourself and restore with great difficulty).
  15. +10
    23 December 2019 11: 42
    Let's call a spade a spade - Borey-And this is the real Borey, and the first three ships are the designer who was shoved by industry to pull back the money that had long ago been mortified in durable hulls from other submarines.
    The result is a "one and a half hull" architecture and the same infernal visibility under low frequency lighting, as in any old boat.
    Well, the fact that the only torpedoes carried by the Borei are USET-80, this is generally beyond the line of good and evil.

    As for

    Projects may be the most remarkable, but if the technical implementation failed, if, for example, “stale” components with a reduced resource were used in the manufacture, then after a short time there begins to rattle, there it will knock, and as a result, the SSBN's secrecy will be much lower laid down.


    then it turned out to be "from scratch" - the TsNKP is perfectly audible, the Americans removed a few more characteristic "discrete" ones. As a result, they both detect and classify them.

    The boat did not work out in general, although it was quieter and more subtle than the BDRM. But this is not enough in our time.

    Maybe Borei-A will show itself better, although given how everything is done in Russia, I doubt it.
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 23: 41
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      Let's call a spade a spade - Borey-And this is the real Borey, and the first three ships are the designer who was shoved by industry to pull back the money that had long ago been mortified in durable hulls from other submarines.
      As for me, it would be better if they (these parts of the hulls for 971) were completed in the form of Pike-B. The same Pacific Fleet would not be damaged by three SSNLs now, if the "king naked" would not have walked. They will get a couple of "Boreys", which there is nothing to effectively cover now and ...?! Under the "sight" will substitute right there ?!
  16. +3
    23 December 2019 12: 02
    abandonment of the barque and sharks, this is a crime and betrayal
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 23: 47
      Quote: vladimir1155
      abandonment of the barque and sharks, this is a crime and betrayal
      surely "Gigantomania", this is a clinical diagnosis that has haunted some since the Soviet Union, and is difficult to treat ... For example, in the old sayings of the Slavs (full of folk wisdom), there is such a statement, - small spool but precious !! (There's not about the price, by the way)
  17. -8
    23 December 2019 12: 04
    I’m wondering, the Americans also paint all the secrets of their submarines, someone who has incontinence .....
  18. +1
    23 December 2019 13: 10
    Was the author banned in Google?
    Bark had an armored thimble that penetrated the obstacle before the rocket. And she already passed into the "clean" hole. Problems with this system were the main reason for the abandonment of ICBMs.
    1. +3
      23 December 2019 16: 24
      Quote: Sergey Soldatenkov
      Was the author banned in Google?
      Bark had a thimble armored cover that pierced an obstacle before a rocket.

      Banned. Don’t share the link? :)
    2. 0
      24 December 2019 13: 36
      Quote: Sergey Soldatenkov
      Was the author banned in Google?
      Bark had an armored thimble that penetrated the obstacle before the rocket. And she already passed into the "clean" hole. Problems with this system were the main reason for the abandonment of ICBMs.


      I support the author of this article - it would be interesting to get acquainted with "information from Google about the" thimble armor cap "
      please enlighten us. thank.
  19. +5
    23 December 2019 13: 23
    Breaking through the ice with a rocket is from the area of ​​naval tales. It is true that the American Virginia was founded in 1999. But in order to understand who is better, it is not enough just to compare the main performance characteristics, speed, diving depth, firing range of missiles, etc. And there is no such comparison in the article, there are only general phrases about 3-4 generations, but this is in relation to their own boats. For example, American boats have a much lower displacement than ours with longer-range missiles and more powerful nuclear charges. What does this mean? This means more advanced American technology, which leads to less weight, dimensions, equipment, systems, mechanisms. Indeed, when designing a ship, the characteristics of the equipment installed on it are taken into account. And if, for example, our electrical shield weighs 500 kg and the same American one weighs 300 kg. and our power plant with systems in size is one and a half times more and weighs more, then the boat will be more, and this, in turn, is a minus and not a plus in all respects. And we have a greater displacement and size of the media give out for some kind of super-duper achievement! The few videos filmed inside the new boats show equipment from the 70s of the last century, and even the 60s. In the rescue equipment of the 50s, divers can get out of the boat from a depth of no more than 100 meters, and even then this is only in theory. Whereas in the west, rescue equipment allows you to get out from a depth of 300 meters. I think the lag in electronics is significant. To disassemble and compare ships, in my opinion, it is necessary in more detail, unless, of course, you are afraid of it.
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 15: 00
      What is the most brilliant attack? The main load articles are hull, power plant, ascent system-dipping and armament. All other equipment - tears. The main difference between USSR / RF boats and amers is the high demands on the strength of hull structures, it is necessary to operate in the Arctic, in difficult navigation and ice conditions, Sverodvinsk and Gadzhievo are far from Norfolk.
      1. +3
        23 December 2019 15: 24
        Quote: ElTuristo
        What is the most brutal attack? The main load items are the hull, power plant, ascent system, immersion and weapons. All other equipment is tears.

        In the case of SSBNs, the dimensions of the hull and the displacement of the boat are determined not only by the load, but also by the MGH SLBM. Remember the 941 projects: they made SLBMs one meter longer, half a meter larger in diameter and 2,25 times heavier. As a result, a "water carrier" had to be built to accommodate 20 such SLBMs.
        1. 0
          24 December 2019 11: 02
          But Borean Mace missiles less Trident and what?
    2. +6
      23 December 2019 16: 26
      Quote: Polar Bear
      In the rescue equipment of the 50s, submariners can get out of the boat from a depth of not more than 100 meters, and even then this is only in theory. Whereas in the west, rescue equipment allows you to exit from a depth of 300 meters.

      You can exit at least a kilometer. But it will be archlosibly saved even at 30 meters, it’s almost pointless to talk about 100 meters.
      By the way, this issue was resolved somewhat adequately only on Soviet / Russian nuclear submarines - a rescue chamber for the entire crew. There are also not many chances, but in individual equipment they are not at all
    3. +3
      24 December 2019 09: 02
      You should not write what you do not understand. Shields are calculated based on voltages and currents. And copper is the same for them and for us. Our shield "just like that" cannot be almost 2 times heavier. What finger was it sucked from? The equipment of electrical machines is also calculated based on the power dissipation. You can't make a 2 megawatt generator the size of a car starter. It will burn, because it will immediately release too much heat, which has nowhere to go. This is the basics of engineering. Our boats have never been heavier than American boats. One fact: the crew of the old project 670 boat was 86 people. And on a similar American boat "Sturgeon" with all equal parameters in terms of displacement speed and other characteristics of 130 people. Nothing for you, but a lot for me. This suggests that the degree of automation of our boats is one and a half times higher !!! As for the displacement and that they are lighter, they have negligible buoyancy - one and a half hulls. There was no question of any kind of damage control. Any hole and cranks. At the expense of leaving a depth of 300 meters - theoretical guesses for the layman. Did you yourself come out from any depth? Have you heard about decompression and other bells and whistles from such depths? From 300 meters without a bell, it makes no sense even to meddle. You will die on the way "to the sun". The lag in electronics is complete nonsense. Just the opposite. Our "logic" was simply excellent and never failed. I was working on a computer that was developed in the early 60s. It was analog. The car is perfect. I was flooded with sea water and then I restored it !! Can you tell if the difference in CPUs is one the size of a penny (super fancy) and the other the size of a matchbox. For the layman, huge. And vice versa for an engineer. The boxes will better dissipate heat and are less likely to burn out in extreme conditions. And the submarine will fit both. And the rocket will fit into the head without any problems, both without much difference.
      1. 0
        24 December 2019 13: 27
        And copper is the same for them and for us. Our shield "just like that" cannot be almost 2 times heavier.


        Density of installation of components = less steel case and its mass, less currents and wiring cross-sections = less mass, greater reliability of elements and less redundancy (3-fold instead of 4-fold) and again less weight, etc. And in fact - our "everything" is heavier, often at times, who felt their hands and our military electronics will easily confirm.

        One fact: the crew of the old project 670 boat was 86 people. And on a similar American boat "Sturgeon" with all equal parameters in terms of displacement speed and other characteristics of 130 people.


        They assign the crew with the expectation of waging a struggle for survivability, then reduce automation to this number so that boats come out cheaper. And it is right. They will never have shortages in emergency parties, they will never remove people from a combat post in an emergency party.

        so their margin of buoyancy is negligible - one and a half hull.


        And what, the lightweight body gives a margin of buoyancy? Did not know.

        There was no question of any struggle for survivability. Any hole and cranks.


        Tales of emergency situations were in bulk, collisions with our submarines, etc., even a boat crashed into the mountain on the go, there were fatalities, depressurization of the hulls, and even crews awarded for differences in the struggle for survivability.

        I was flooded with seawater and afterwards I restored it !!


        But wooden bills would not have to be restored.
    4. 0
      24 December 2019 13: 45
      Quote: Polar Bear
      Breaking through the ice with a rocket is from the area of ​​naval tales. It is true that the American Virginia was founded in 1999. But in order to understand who is better, it is not enough just to compare the main performance characteristics, speed, diving depth, firing range of missiles, etc. And there is no such comparison in the article, there are only general phrases about 3-4 generations, but this is in relation to their own boats. For example, American boats have a much lower displacement than ours with longer-range missiles and more powerful nuclear charges. What does this mean? This means more advanced American technology, which leads to less weight, dimensions, equipment, systems, mechanisms. Indeed, when designing a ship, the characteristics of the equipment installed on it are taken into account. And if, for example, our electrical shield weighs 500 kg and the same American one weighs 300 kg. and our power plant with systems in size is one and a half times more and weighs more, then the boat will be more, and this, in turn, is a minus and not a plus in all respects. And we have a greater displacement and size of the media give out for some kind of super-duper achievement! The few videos filmed inside the new boats show equipment from the 70s of the last century, and even the 60s. In the rescue equipment of the 50s, divers can get out of the boat from a depth of no more than 100 meters, and even then this is only in theory. Whereas in the west, rescue equipment allows you to get out from a depth of 300 meters. I think the lag in electronics is significant. To disassemble and compare ships, in my opinion, it is necessary in more detail, unless, of course, you are afraid of it.


      what a crazy brick!
      and the sad consequences of watching Hollywood films and studying the icteric press.
      to the garden !!!
  20. +4
    23 December 2019 14: 41
    Thank you for the article. But for all the high characteristics of the Borei SSBN, it is poorly protected from US PLO. It was better to develop missile carriers for the R-29 project while simultaneously placing them in a closed reservoir of the Caspian, where Russian SSBNs would become inaccessible to enemy ASW forces
    1. +1
      23 December 2019 16: 40
      Yes, I am very impressed with sitting in the Caspian under water! No enemies, sit, wait for the team
    2. -1
      23 December 2019 17: 35
      Good joke! I put +. And the depths are suitable and the ports are lumpy.
      1. -1
        24 December 2019 12: 56
        Not a joke at all. The Caspian is a natural bastion. There is no need to spend money on the Caspian Sea on aircraft defense forces, on IAPCs, on PLO ships, which do not give a 100% guarantee of protection.
        1. -1
          24 December 2019 15: 00
          I put -. There is no base. The depths are small. The Russian sector is small. As at least one boat (Russian, Iranian, Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Kazakh) appears in the Caspian Sea current, a PLO (Russian, Iranian, Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Kazakh) immediately appears. And missile defense for missiles in the upper stage (Russian, Iranian, Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Kazakh). It’s ridiculous.
          1. 0
            25 December 2019 10: 21
            The base should be built in Kaspiysk. As for the sector, this only applies to the development of the sea day. And the water column has the status of the open sea, i.e. 12 miles from the coast. If neighboring countries have PLO, then this is not scary. In the event of a conflict with the United States, they will either be inactive, or they can easily be suppressed by the forces of the Russian Federation. Compare a similar situation with the Barents Sea.
          2. -1
            25 December 2019 10: 34
            Bulava and R-29 will start from a maximum of 50 meters depth. The depth of the Caspian is over 1 km. The center of the Caspian is the open sea. And then, when the question is about life and death, does the agreement on the Caspian Sea with neighboring states matter? No, it doesn't.
            1. -1
              25 December 2019 19: 28
              Again -. The depth of the sea in the region of Kaspiysk is 36 m. To the north is generally a swamp. There is 788 m in the center in the Derbent Depression, but it is very small and only partially (a quarter) in our waters (from Kaspiysk to the center of the Derbent Depression 200 km) - there is nowhere to swim. And active shipping. With a household fishing echo sounder, a boat can be grazed pretending to be fishing for a herring. The idea is fix.
    3. +1
      23 December 2019 18: 28
      You measure the distance from the Caspian to a probable enemy please.
      1. +5
        23 December 2019 19: 02
        You measure the distance from the Caspian to a probable enemy please

        For the torpedoes that you love so much you can throw out. laughing
        But I would place boats in Baikal.
        Deeper, closer to the likely enemy, and no PLO will reach.
        By the way, why is it really on duty in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk or on Novaya Zemlya?
        It is closed from the enemy’s PLO, and for a retaliatory strike, the flight time does not matter.
        1. +1
          23 December 2019 21: 41
          But I would place boats in Baikal.


          It is impossible, we have an agreement with Amers on this topic.

          By the way, why is it really on duty in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk or on Novaya Zemlya?


          They’ve been on duty there for forty years at least. And this is not entirely correct.

          In general, classics must be read laughing

          https://topwar.ru/163204-stroim-flot-osobye-operacii-jadernoe-sderzhivanie.html
          1. 0
            24 December 2019 11: 41
            ... boats in Baikal. - It’s impossible, we have an agreement with Amers on this topic.

            Which contract? What kind of fiction? Eats a ban crewless missile containers - attached or freely drifting.
            However, how much these contracts "cost" today is unknown.
            1. 0
              24 December 2019 12: 08
              Nuclear weapons cannot be placed in inland waters. Americans otherwise from the Great Lakes will be able to launch SLBMs, the range allows. Therefore, our fuss.
              1. 0
                24 December 2019 12: 31
                Americans differently from the Great Lakes will be able to launch SLBMs ... Therefore, our fussed

                But the Russian Federation is not going to strike a counter-force strike! Then let them launch from where they want, it is important to make Russian capabilities respond safer and cheaper.
              2. 0
                24 December 2019 12: 38
                Therefore, our fuss
                ps I think the ban was due to the difficulty of accounting and control of contractual restriction (then). If in 21g is not extended ...
              3. +1
                24 December 2019 12: 45
                The US SSBN is so safe. The US does not need to transfer the SSBN to the Great Lakes. Because Russian submarines do not continuously monitor the US SSBN exit from ports, their duty and entrance to ports
                1. 0
                  24 December 2019 13: 14
                  Yes, but there may be options in the future.
              4. 0
                24 December 2019 16: 07
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Therefore, our fuss.

                and in vain ... for us there are no advantages from this ... request
        2. -1
          24 December 2019 15: 05
          Place, and Th
        3. 0
          25 December 2019 10: 34
          R-29 will fly from the Caspian to the USA. "Bulava" - will not reach
      2. 0
        24 December 2019 12: 29
        Bulava will not reach the USA from the Caspian Sea. But Bulava's goal is not only the United States, but also Europe. And from the Caspian Sea, the United States will reach the Liner and Sineva, which are based on the Dolphin and Kalmar SSBNs, especially since the Sineva has already been used to deliver satellites into orbit.
    4. +1
      23 December 2019 19: 47
      The American is treacherous .... as soon as we drag a dozen to the Caspian Sea - another Boreev, it will immediately turn out that there are already 6 fleets there for a long time!
      1. 0
        24 December 2019 12: 46
        The USA will not transfer their ships to the Caspian. The only way from the sea to the Caspian is the Volga, Don and Volga-Don canal
  21. -13
    23 December 2019 15: 04
    Quote: Private-K
    bet on only "Poseidons"

    The Poseidons are part of a single triad with the Sarmatians / Yars and Tu-160 / Petreves.

    Plus, the enemy will have completely different "labor costs" to neutralize either several tens of 24000-ton Boreis or several hundred 44-ton Poseidons.

    Plus, the zone of continuous shock wave damage from the explosion of only one Poseidon warhead in diameter is 144 km, and from the fallout of radioactive fallout - 700x400 km. Given the limited number of megalopolises, industrial zones and US military bases in the coastal zone, a small part of the standard Poseidons will be enough to defeat them.

    Torment radioactive dust swallow am
    1. +3
      23 December 2019 18: 40
      The trips never let go, right?

      Minusanul with the people
  22. +2
    23 December 2019 16: 53
    After the striped and banderlogs through SP-2 and TP bent Miller and the Darkest, and in their person all of us, the question arises: why do we need boats?
    1. 0
      23 December 2019 19: 06
      bent over Miller and the Darkest

      Did they bend? belay
      1. -1
        24 December 2019 10: 52
        As for me, they even went too far, 3 lard greens, an agreement for 5 years almost on their terms and the unknown with SP-2. These are our specialists, no, they won’t forget their pocket, but as for the state treasury, how it goes. SHADOW.
  23. 0
    23 December 2019 17: 32
    How can I make Bark when there is no fuel, there are no navigation and aiming systems (all in Ukraine)? Consider no production facilities! No way. Breaking through a rocket ice is generally a game from the naval armament specialist from Chelyabinsk! Although, Valentina Ivanovna offered to shoot down the sosli with a laser!
  24. +5
    23 December 2019 17: 49
    A very long article, the meaning of which can be summarized briefly. The desire of the "optimizers" of the Russian economy to shove the Topol M land complex into the SSBN turned out to be a huge expense and loss of time.
    What is the main point: 1) the submarine fires on the move ("Poplar" - in the hospital with outriogers with a topographic reference to the launch point); 2) the submarine shoots from a depth of at least 30 m (this requires strengthening the rocket body, so that there is no hydraulic fracture); 3) The submarine shoots in rolling conditions (this requires a completely different solution to the stabilization problem).
    In a word, due to the whim of "helluva lot of clever strategists", and in fact - politicians, it took at least 10 years and a lot of money to comprehend that a modern submarine needs, simply, a somewhat modernized Makeyevka rocket.
  25. Eug
    +1
    23 December 2019 17: 51
    According to the technical and technical characteristics, the onboard equipment of our SLBMs had to withstand a pressure of 8 atm., Which corresponds to a launch from a depth of 80 m (for the Meri Manceff 20 m). In addition, the subglaciality and persistence of the launch increase the requirements for the lateral strength of the BR case. If we summarize these factors, add solid fuel of less stability and energy, a lag in computing power, then, for me, we’ll get just the loss of Bark in dimensions to Trident 2. The surest way to ruin a project is to put forward difficult requirements to it on the verge of reasonable, and then compare technical and economic parameters with those achieved by a likely adversary with much more modest requirements ...
  26. +4
    23 December 2019 18: 49
    From Klimov about Boreev:

    Now facts
    https://mina030.livejournal.com/10134.html - РАКЕТЫ
    https://mina030.livejournal.com/12048.html - ТОРПЕДЫ




    The end of the transfer.

    From myself - in the photo you can see popos with torpedoes, more than. Under the ice at shallow depths, these CLOs were NEVER used. No one knows if they work or not.
    Taking into account the performance characteristics of the "goals", you can safely vouch that no.

    A purebred fighting dog without teeth.
    1. -3
      23 December 2019 20: 07
      And dog fights are forbidden! By law, must be muzzled!
      And our boats do not fight. It happens that the Strategic Missile Forces will answer for everything. It’s even good when the dog is kind and menacing in appearance, it loves children ...
      1. +2
        23 December 2019 21: 43
        And our boats do not fight. It happens that the Strategic Missile Forces will answer for everything.


        So the further into the future, the stronger this is not a fact.
        1. -2
          24 December 2019 16: 09
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          So the further into the future, the stronger this is not a fact.

          this is even stronger for the SSBN request And mobile plants can be hidden in mining ... for example, in Norilsk they are 700 km ... and in the Urals there are enough old mines ... hi
        2. 0
          24 December 2019 23: 20
          The Nippon honestly warned - "in the forthcoming nuclear war." Do not hear !!!
  27. +1
    24 December 2019 11: 07
    Andrey, good afternoon.
    I am in my critical repertoire.
    A few comments.
    You give the performance characteristics of products, but forget to compare the main indicators. This is combat stability, KOH and accuracy.
    or push ice masses into the hull in places where the ice is thinner.
    Submariners will correct, but determine the thickness of the ice with the accuracy necessary for breaking then ??? And the need to use active means, which is not great for stealth.
    and against a number of unconventional submarine detection methods.
    After the mid-90s they already successfully applied it. Ask the same submariners. Very much, days under the ice. Only "crawled out" and swam up - "Orion" over the wheelhouse. This was especially noted when driving boats to Pacific Fleet with SF.
    six "Sharks" of project 941 - according to the logic of things, it was precisely them that should have been left in the current fleet
    Their destruction is one of the conditions for granting US loans.
    The warranty periods for storing their main armament, the R-39 SLBM, expired in 2003, and no new missiles of this type were manufactured.
    Normally extended. Like the Satan. And more than once.
    the flight from the Barents Sea to Kamchatka was reduced from 30 to 17 minutes.
    ??
    how significant this factor is: usually professionals indicate the screw as the main source of noise, after it - various SSBNs that make noise during their work. But still, apparently, the geometry and the total area of ​​the hull also have some significance.
    External VLF irradiation (backlight), vibration of the light body. This requires a separate article.
    whose capabilities are superior to the HACK-and, which are equipped with US "Virginia".
    Again ??? By what parameters are they superior?

    My summary.
    Amers have things that work, but the principles of work and performance characteristics remain a mystery. A completely different level. Some experts at the level of the fleet and the General Staff of the Navy simply shrug their shoulders- "We don’t know how they do it."
    1. 0
      24 December 2019 13: 16
      Amers have things that work, but the principles of work and performance characteristics remain a mystery.


      Even you know how they do it. Not Newton’s binom even once.
      1. 0
        24 December 2019 13: 52
        The result, yes, I see ... On what principles is the question. How technically a question.
        For me, personally, it is not clear what such a number of operators does on the Poseidon and HOW they open the Black Sea region and "see" pr 206 and 877. Moreover, this is tied to space, well, I wrote about it, And they even allowed to take pictures aboard a NASA aircraft. That is, this is clearly not 2011 (photo time). That is, what was shown is antiquity for them. And after that 8 years passed.
        However, you had an article on R-8 and the Japanese counterpart Kawasaki. From which they determine not only the boats, but also the killer whale floor.
        https://army-news.ru/2019/03/sovremennyj-yaponskij-protivolodochnyj-samolyot-kawasaki-p-1/#comment-196552

        1. 0
          24 December 2019 13: 57
          laughing
          I even found my comment.
        2. +1
          24 December 2019 14: 02
          Also, like you, they do not understand with their eyes in circles on the screen, but the computers give this matter away.

          Circles + Kelvin wedge + wake + heat trace - all this can be detected not only by aircraft radar, but also by satellite optics. Then there is a simple algorithm - the satellite shows something that looks like a "contact", at the command post of the anti-submarine operation, the aircraft is given search areas, it flies them without dropping below 5000, then the computing complex works - is there a wave structure on the surface? Yes, two. And the heat footprint? One of them. And the Kelvin wedge? At the same place where it is warm. Consequently - there is a PL. The computer marks the off-beat display of the point at which the submarine is.

          Everything, then you can not fool. This is how miracles are done.

          In the war, a couple of buoys will be thrown there to determine the EDC and classify the contact by noise and, after a turn, a torpedo.
          1. 0
            24 December 2019 14: 59
            I agree.
            Several "But".
            These are our assumptions. Maybe close to the truth. "I would do so based on experience."
            The tactics you described are our ideas about the search of the early 90s. "Novella" - the same.
            I do not exclude that buoys will not be needed at all to strike at a submarine.
            Mighty things domestic science in general .... An example, the same "Jewelin". The product is 20 years old. The complex fell into the hands of the Chinese and others. To repeat, it does not work. Several key technologies from 20 years ago and "plug".
            As an example, the story of Butkovsky (KK Tu-22 r, Saki), when he worked at NITK. And this is steel, supposedly not a computer.
            1. 0
              24 December 2019 15: 09
              I do not exclude that buoys will not be needed at all to strike at a submarine.


              I will tell you so - it is really possible.

              You can’t deceive physics, the guys at NITK did not know what steel it was, but they knew that it was steel and they knew how to smel it in principle, if you know the composition, it’s the same here.

              You did it yourself, on your knee. If you do not on your knee, it will turn out like the Americans. This, I repeat, is not something supernatural.
              1. -2
                24 December 2019 16: 00
                This, I repeat, is not something supernatural.
                laughing
                On our knees, we and the submariners did "Ritsu" because we wanted to live in case of war. And the notorious Lefty advocated not to clean the guns with bricks ... And the top was us ... for everything. The women are still giving birth.
                Why go so far? Only today the newest plane 5 ++++ has fallen
                And then I came across a mirror. Previously, they did it. When the USSR.
                1. 0
                  24 December 2019 17: 00
                  And the top was us ... for everything. Women still give birth.


                  If we speak for "now", then there is simply no feedback.
                  1. 0
                    31 December 2019 20: 07
                    Alexander, good evening and with the upcoming.
                    Another reincarnation. laughing
                    Feedback began to disappear with the destruction of NTV of that format, a free press, fair elections, etc.
          2. -1
            24 December 2019 16: 11
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            A couple of buoys will be thrown there in the war

            in war, satellites can bring down aircraft ... request
    2. 0
      24 December 2019 15: 59
      Greetings, dear Alex!
      Quote: Polinom
      You give the performance characteristics of products, but forget to compare the main indicators. This is combat stability, KOH and accuracy.

      Then I did not quite understand. After all, I only give TTX for missiles, and even then, just a few basic ones, and the same combat stability is a very complex integral indicator, and it applies to a submarine, not a missile. I accept your criticism, but I don’t understand, therefore I can’t correct myself :)))
      Quote: Polinom
      Submariners will correct, but determine the thickness of the ice with the accuracy necessary for breaking then ???

      They somehow determined it, nevertheless, and, as I understand it, they used something like external television cameras (and probably not only them) but they knew how to float through the ice 941 and 667
      Quote: Polinom
      After the mid-90s they already successfully applied it. Ask the same submariners. Very much, days under the ice. Only "crawled out" and swam up - "Orion" over the wheelhouse. This was especially noted when driving boats to Pacific Fleet with SF.

      Very interesting, thanks!
      Quote: Polinom
      Their destruction is one of the conditions for granting US loans.

      I believe that 941 we needed loans
      Quote: Polinom
      Normally extended. Like the Satan. And more than once.

      thought about it. I could not understand why the P-39 turned out to be so short-lived, in the end suggested that it was somehow connected with the underwater specifics
      Quote: Polinom
      ??

      Yes, there is such widespread information on the net. As you understand, I personally did not fly on the Bark with a stopwatch :))))
      Quote: Polinom
      External VLF irradiation (backlight), vibration of the light body. This requires a separate article.

      Thank you!
      Quote: Polinom
      Again ??? By what parameters are they superior?

      Well, this is not my idea :)))))) So one of the developers said, and I did not claim that it is so :)))
      Once again - many thanks for the feedback and criticism!
      1. 0
        24 December 2019 16: 23
        If about a rocket, then accuracy. Hence the probability, hence the outfit of forces.
        Although the control unit is an integral state and the reliability of launch, flight and guidance are also included.
        By logic. Flight below dense atm above. I'm not sure that when flying to a SINGLE range, the time on top and bottom is the same.
        Well, loans are more important to leaders.
        How much was written off and given to Putin after the Kursk so that he would not raise a wave?
        Everyone is renewing. I will not say about missiles, about aviation the airframe was so "prolonged", the skin was falling under the finger (Tu-16) but it is good.
        I am written off in 1990 on health cleaned up. Limited in wartime. But no. In September 2014 they called, passed the commission-GOOD !!! Well, to the Donbass, however, they did not send it))) ... I'm not joking.
      2. +1
        25 December 2019 05: 54
        One way to determine ice thickness. Acoustic means determine the distance to the bottom edge of the ice. We know our depth. The difference between the depth and the distance to the lower edge, plus the approximate value of the surface part of the ice is outlined. It turns out the thickness. You can watch the wormwood with cameras. But you can’t determine for sure. Maybe they’ve come up with something now. In general, breaking ice looks like this (one way). After carefully snowing and standing in such a flaccid position, air is supplied to the central cylinder with open ventilation valves, an air bag forms under the ice, and then the central cylinder is blown. The ice actually breaks under its weight on the pl. They can just blow the Central City Hospital. The ice breaks down quite loudly, it is decently audible in the compartments.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Polinom
        Their destruction is one of the conditions for granting US loans.

        I believe that 941 we needed loans

        Credits are needed for cutting money, and existing boats only require money for their operation, and crews also need to pay cash allowance. You won’t make money on it ...
        1. 0
          31 December 2019 20: 09
          Acoustic means determined
          What I wrote about. Stealth. Especially under the ice, but how to "jump" will be the reflection of the acoustic signal and who hears it.
  28. 0
    24 December 2019 16: 03
    "A special" highlight "was the ability of the Bark to launch under ice - in some way unknown to the author, the rocket managed to overcome the layer of ice."
    if not a secret, where does the author get such information * bully I have on my desk a book by Makeevites - "Naval Strategic Missile Systems, M. - Military Parade, 2011, ISBN 5-902975-25-0, which on page 11 shows a diagram of the R-39UTTKh missile ... and so at the very top of this rocket there is a gas generator for pressurizing the nozzle (conical fairing), which will obviously break on the ice ... request
    And further, in the description of the rocket design (p.112-113), such a system - overcoming ice - simply does not exist ... feel
    “In fact, the only reason for the low weight of the Bulava was its unification with ground complexes.” According to Makeyevtsy, the Office of the Chief of Armaments and the Rocket Forces insisted on this unification ... request
    And there are some interesting comparative data on the perfection of the design of this rocket:
    indicator - thrown weight in kg per 10 km, referred to the starting mass of the rocket in t:
    R-39UTTTH - 37,7
    Poplar-M - 30,6
    Trident - 2 - 37,2
    Minuteman -3 - 39,6
    In my opinion, the comparison with the Minuteman -3 is not quite correct to use - it is mine and does not require a safety margin for the missile for transportation ... hi
    1. -1
      24 December 2019 16: 04
      Quote: ser56
      s.11
      editing - p.111
  29. -1
    24 December 2019 16: 21
    Quote: Mestny
    It would seem that the conclusion suggests itself - “Bark” was technically backward compared to “Trident”, and even with a delay of 20 years.

    Quote: ser56
    And there are some interesting comparative data on the perfection of the design of this rocket:
    indicator - thrown weight in kg per 10 km, referred to the starting mass of the rocket in t:
    R-39UTTTH - 37,7
    Poplar-M - 30,6
    Trident - 2 - 37,2

    somehow wrong ... request
  30. -4
    24 December 2019 16: 59
    The author simply got his stupid opuses already !!!!
    1. +2
      25 December 2019 09: 46
      Well, cry somewhere in the corner :)
    2. 0
      25 December 2019 10: 25
      Not stupid at all, but unfortunately it’s the opus, because the author’s sound ideas are not implemented by the political leadership of the Russian Federation. And there are not even signs that they will be implemented. And this is strange because there seems to be a scientific council under the Ministry of Defense. What are they thinking about?
  31. 0
    25 December 2019 10: 29
    I have already expressed the idea that it is useful for Russia to place SSBNs in the Caspian, a natural bastion. But the Caspian Sea is too far for the R-29, and out of reach for the Bulava. But why not place the 2nd generation SSBNs in Ladoga and Onega? Then even the Bulava will reach the northern regions of the United States. And the P-29 will finish in the United States to Norfolk and further south. Of course, the inhabitants of St. Petersburg are dispersed because of the proximity of the SSBN. But a member in their eye!
    1. -1
      25 December 2019 10: 30
      By the way, the depths in Ladoga and Onega are up to 80 meters! It is quite enough to accommodate Dolphin and Kalmar SSBNs there.
  32. 0
    25 December 2019 18: 18
    With the current state of the fleet, all hopes are assigned only to land strategists in different versions: mobile, mine, train. Boats (unifying name) are lagging behind the same American ones in most parameters. These friends have long and with might and main been chasing whole flocks and under the ice of the Arctic, training, conducting research work on the bottom, on the ice, on communication and navigation under the ice, etc. etc. Considering electronics, technology, materials - in the next decade it will be too tough to get them. Even the open press stated that the bases were located poorly. A boat leaving the base is grazed by more than one shock friendly boat. In a campaign (on duty), she, too, in most cases does not go unnoticed. As one admiral said: there are hopes that at least one boat will have time to shoot ... Hence the moral: dozens, dozens of boats like the Warsaw River are needed to cover the entire coast, the entire Arctic, etc. We will be silent about some carriers that are finalizing and finalizing. We must rely on land: Boreas have time to shoot ???
    1. 0
      27 December 2019 08: 05
      They won't have time. “Borei should be transferred to Ladoga and Onega. These are closed reservoirs. From there, you can have time to deliver a retaliatory nuclear missile strike.
  33. qaz
    0
    27 December 2019 10: 58
    Interesting article, though a lot of "water" and vague reflections. Serving Sharks is quite expensive. Yes, in the days of the USSR, we simply could not create a TTD comparable in size to the American one, we had to create such monsters for the sake of range / weight and, accordingly, the same monsters carrying them. BUT! If we compare liquid-propellant rockets and solid-propellant ones, then the very time of the initial take-off stage is better for LIQUID.
    Liquid ones provide a higher rate of gas outflow and, accordingly, a greater casting weight or range, but much more complicated, more expensive and more capricious, the missile is longer in length, longer preparation time for launch and the difficulty of its cancellation (in fact, after canceling the pre-launch preparation, the missile is not combat ready).
    Now for the missiles themselves. The Bulava was actually pushed through, these guys have NEVER dealt with missiles for nuclear submarines, for them it's like starting from scratch, but politics is politics.
    Now about the "butting" between the Moscow region and Sevmash. Do not forget that at the beginning of the actual construction of Borey, the enterprise was in a deplorable state - there were few qualified personnel, well, very few, production capacities were just seams (now it has become much better thanks to the FTP for the modernization of the shipyard), there was no MZK as such. MO wanted to get a submarine for a penny. Sevmash was forced to take loans against government guarantees (loans for state defense order !!!!!!). And here's how to build boats, when your hands are twisted, they beat you on the head with a dusty bag, but you need to eat and feed your family. Can the author of the article answer this very simple question?
    1. 0
      3 January 2020 14: 44
      They wrote a lot about the insurmountable difficulties of launching rockets from the podold, and meanwhile, the ice can be easily cut, for example, on a fishing trip for 10 seconds and a hole 20 cm deep, if a manipulator with a cutter is installed on the boat behind the wheelhouse (similar to those used in the construction of tunnels) then he will make a large enough "hole" in the shortest possible time, that is, the cutter on the manipulator will turn the ice into a mush through which you can run.
  34. 0
    14 January 2020 14: 46
    As usual with Andrei, the doctor is all bad. Even if it’s bad, don’t have to put it on display. We have a lot of bad things, but what to discuss. Then it is necessary to discuss those who ruined the country. And now we use the achievements of the USSR.
    1. 0
      16 January 2020 11: 26
      Then it is necessary to discuss those who ruined the country.
      And who destroyed it? Millions of communists, among the officers of the army and the KGB, almost all. And no one came out with weapons to defend the "collapse" of the country. Even the last hope "Alpha" refused to storm the database.)))
      And is not enough about the collapse? Almost 30 years have passed. THIRTY!!!
      Remember what country Stalin took after the first World and Civil. And what was the country 20 years after?
      1. -1
        16 January 2020 11: 32
        Quote: VALENTIN-37
        Millions of Communists, among army and KGB officers, are practically all.

        They collapsed. Raking hands, giving a larger army, higher salaries for officers, and more defense costs. As a result, the military unit ate the civilian. And the USSR collapsed.
        Quote: VALENTIN-37
        Remember what country Stalin took after the first World and Civil. And what was the country 20 years after?

        Well, actually in 1927 the USSR was in a much better condition than in 1947.
        By the way, in the course of WW1, Russia was almost not affected, because the front line ran far to the west.
        And in the course of the massacre organized by the Bolsheviks (they called it the Civil War), yes, it suffered. But much less than in WW2. Which was "organized" for the USSR by Dzhugashvili and his "wise foreign policy".
        1. 0
          19 January 2020 10: 41
          Well, about the military and theirs))) Minimum. They didn’t bum too, I in Kamchatka, of course, felt more comfortable for the money.
          In general, there was nothing to beat the imperial show off, I'm talking about the USSR. Everyone caught up and wanted parity.
          Now compare zp hard workers and military. The latter live abruptly than under the USSR. Compared.
          And about Stalin ... the Americans put almost the entire industry. Well, the Germans, too. Stalin, it seems to me, outwitted himself.
      2. 0
        16 January 2020 23: 21
        So I'm talking about the same thing. Enough for Andrei to write pessimistic articles. I want a positive.
  35. 0
    24 February 2020 22: 57
    On the conscience of MIT with their cattle monstrous financial and temporary losses.

    Counting:
    1) at least a billion dollars invested in the development of Bark
    2) at least $ 7 billion is the construction of 941 projects (the 7th building on the slipway was dismantled)
    3) at least $ 1 billion invested in onshore infrastructure for 941 projects
    4) an unknown amount for the redesign of Borea.
    5) more than 20 years of time.

    The original Bark had a bunch of advanced technical solutions. At least Pavlograd fuel with aluminum hydride in 3 steps. When Pavlograd found himself in an empty crap, then on Bark predicted more simple and spent fuel produced in Russia. But then the goals are no longer 10, but 8.

    The ice was to break through the separating ARSS.

    Yes, Bark fulfilled a bunch of different, sometimes frankly moronic, requirements for the absence of detonation when shot with a cumulative torpedo charge and some others that could be carried on a boat.

    P.S. the author, giving out the characteristics of the T-2, it is worth remembering that he gives them out in the "either-or" style. Or 8 heads of W-88, or 11000 km. And in real life, the Americans themselves said that 8 heads of W-88 fly at 7450 km.

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