Test frames of 2C38 “Derivation” self-propelled unit are presented

There was information about conducting "field" tests of the latest Russian self-propelled installation 2C38 "Derivation". We are talking about the implementation of the project, which was first announced to the general public at the Army-2017 military-technical forum. The project concerned the creation of self-propelled anti-aircraft guns with artillery weapons.

Channel "Zvezda" publishes footage from the tests of self-propelled guns "Derivation". The frames show that the self-propelled gun is used in tests for firing at ground targets. Shooting is direct fire. This fact speaks of the versatility of a combat vehicle, which was originally designed precisely as a self-propelled gun. It was previously reported that the maximum angle of the trunk is 75 degrees.

The armored vehicle is equipped with a 57-mm gun. At the same time, the particular stability of the technique is seen when firing, which may indicate a high accuracy in hitting targets.

In TTX "Derivations" it was indicated that it is capable of hitting targets in height up to 4500 m.

The movement of an armored vehicle with a sheathed barrel on a snowy terrain at a speed of not more than 40 km / h is demonstrated.

About the timing of the end of the test and about when exactly the “Derivation” will begin to enter the troops in the serial production version, not yet reported.

Comments

[awdrgy]

Yes, this "thresher" has a colossal export potential - to put on a wheelbase and whole armies of Africa and Latin America can only be armed with it

[antivirus]

leaving SV from 30 mm to 57 ??
this is a spoon again, small, in the military-industrial complex wallet.
the country will pull such a transition?

[awdrgy]

Therefore, I don’t know about export and suggested

[Shurik70]

In the photo, when I glanced briefly, not having time to read the title of the article, I thought it was some kind of modification of the German "Tiger" of the Second World War.
The silhouette is a bit like

[awdrgy]

By the way, this fits into the concept of export - many countries are accustomed to exploiting weapons with a "western" design and this can be considered a kind of marketing ploy

[awdrgy]

In general, it seemed to me that the design is similar to the British times of WWII, adjusted for modernity, of course, perhaps because of the tower?

[Paul Siebert]

some modification of the German "Tiger" during the 2nd World War

At Kursk in 1943, the 57-mm ZIS-2 cannons threshed well with these German "Tigers".
History repeats itself.
We are experiencing the rebirth of the legendary caliber.
He was always "revolutionary".
Remember, the ZIS-2 I mentioned, which pierced everything German through and through.
Or the post-war ASU-57, which became the first armored vehicle capable of going into battle directly from heaven.
No need to dismiss this caliber today, like the short-sighted conjuncturers of 1941. He will serve the Motherland faithfully!

[serg.shishkov2015]

This is the third or fourth return of the 57 mm! 57 mm Nordenfelt, the last four years in 1927 were shipped to protect the Volkhov hydroelectric station (I write from memory, Shirokorada has not been re-read for a long time!)

[Archivist Vasya]

That is not a little, but very much, I read the comments - many thought so)))

[vvvjak]

Quote: antivirus

leaving SV from 30 mm to 57 ??
this is a spoon again, small, in the military-industrial complex wallet.
the country will pull such a transition?

And where is the departure or transition? This unit is interesting primarily for shells with a remote fuse for hitting UAVs.

[antivirus]

in figures for all NE how many? who will pay?

[vvvjak]

Quote: antivirus

in figures for all NE how many? who will pay?

You probably didn't understand something. "Derivation" is a multipurpose system that will occupy its own niche in the troops and do its job. What makes you think that it should replace all 30-mm installations in the Russian army.

[sivuch]

Seriously, its place in the OSh is still unclear. They wrote that the Shlilka and Strela-10 will change the dignitaries, but Shilok is already a little, and the Arrows are undergoing modernization and, most likely, they will be replaced by Pine

[Boris Chernikov]

at least they are effective in UAVs and turntables, so that as they go in for air defense vehicles, I won’t be very surprised if a new Carapace with 57 mm + column support on the march appears soon

[Evil Booth]

excluded)))) for all reasons including returns.

[Boris Chernikov]

for what reasons ?

[Evil Booth]

for all))))))))))) for example, initially they could do immediately 57 what and not))

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, actually the S-60 was for air defense) but since the era of jet aviation in the USA and the era of rocket science in the USSR came, we decided to break up destruction at high altitudes and ranges with rockets, and at close range with quick-firing guns .. By the way, for It would be nice for the derivations to install a panoramic sight coupled with the r-23l ... for especially close acquaintances with enemy aircraft

[Evil Booth]

Effective at a speed of 30 km / h. https://rg.ru/2019/12/21/rossiia-ispytala-novejshij-kompleks-pvo-gibka-s.html

[Boris Chernikov]

in the know, cheaply and cheerfully, like a machine for MANPADS units - the very thing is if they equip the machines with auxiliary machine-gun weapons

[Izzy Gubinstein]

pine
climbed into the headquarters and immediately hit the forged chase

[Evil Booth]

it’s just that he so illiterate set out the phrase putensl. but it turned out that they leaked it.

[sivuch]

And if on the scale of the whole universe, then in general it’s scary to think
Like who ? here you pay

[antivirus]

that's for sure - I’ll only pay
give cons.
Of course the site is not a place for discussion, but ...
money from teachers to such heroes + retirement more at 40 years.
it was already in 41 g - "they did not give new tanks", then the failure of 42 g with new tanks.
The army was simply forced to die with the weapons that the schoolchildren could produce.
and now it MUST BE-if you live in the same country with teachers and plumbers
EXISTING-30 mm shell did not pull up to the UAV 5 km from the surface? why 57 mm and not 76 mm? and not the modernization of old towers?

[venik]

Quote: antivirus

give cons.

========
Pli-and-out! Wanted - GET !!! (And there is nothing to run into a "compliment" !!!!
-------

Quote: antivirus

EXISTING-30 mm shell did not pull up to the UAV 5 km from the surface? why 57 mm and not 76 mm?

=======
Well, maybe because the 57-mm shell (from the modified S-60 gun) has the best ballistics (and accuracy!), and the gun itself - LARGE rate of fire?
Or maybe because recoil - MUCH LESS (and therefore firing accuracy - HIGHER!??)
And what do you think? (unless of course you are ABLE (to think) ???

[antivirus]

I can not think
a year ago we were discussing here the us 57 mm - "what kind of money is this?"
what about 30 mm?
and module heights?

[Souchastnik]

... to such heroes + a pension of more than 40 years ...

It seems adult, do you have anything to do with the army? Now the army is retiring at 50, the colonels (epaulette with two clearance and three stars like YOU) are 55 years old. Are there many pensioners among your friends who are 40 years old and have a large pension? Shame on the infection spread to the masses.
I apologize for being off topic. Just already got this nonsense.

[Boris Chernikov]

ammunition, there is not much difference in the power of shells, unification with weapons for infantry fighting vehicles

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: antivirus

EXISTING-30 mm shell did not pull up to the UAV 5 km from the surface? why 57 mm and not 76 mm? and not the modernization of old towers?

Because the insert from the knees did not fit into the 45-mm gun.

[Tcheluskin]

There is not just "remote firing" (by programming the firing timer at the moment of departure from the barrel). There is a guided projectile. In fact, an analogue of the second stage of missiles Shell Pines. Only with a shorter range and warhead power.

For a cheap short-range air defense system (if you need it) Pine is better, supplemented by a pair of mastered 30 mm cannons with shells with programmable detonation (well, or 40 mm when they appear).

[venik]

Quote: Tcheluskin

There is not just "remote blasting" (by programming the timer for blasting at the moment of departure from the barrel). There is a guided projectile.

=======
Well, it has not yet come to THIS ...... But to "remote blasting on the trajectory" - it seems to be implemented!
Here, after all, the MAIN THING is the ACCURACY OF GUIDANCE !!! Take the Coast system, for example! After all, an ordinary 130-mm cannon! ....... Namely, due to the GUIDANCE system, during trials - with 13 shells, the Destroyer - the target "ugrohala" !!!!

[alexmach]

There is a guided projectile. In fact, an analogue of the second stage of the Pine Shell shell missiles

Where did the firewood come from?

[Tcheluskin]

From the previous news about this "Derivation-Air Defense":

Googled, indeed, for Deviation-Air Defense, apparently, "simple" unguided shells with programmable detonation time have been created. As I understand it, this is the speed sensor and the programmer mounted on the gun:

Such shells, of course, are much cheaper than guided ones. But there is a drawback in the form of a low rate of fire: 120 rounds / min. The Oerlikon gun, firing 35 mm shells with programmable AHEAD detonation time, claims a firing rate of 1000 rounds / min.

[Boris Chernikov]

and how many goals will you have, what is the rate of 1 important to you? the S-000 shell weighs 60 kg and 2,8 grams of explosives has it, which makes it possible to hit targets more effectively .. where Oerlikon fires 153-5 shells for destruction, the S-6 will last 60-2

[Tcheluskin]

Quote: Boris Chernikov

de Oerlikon fires 5-6 shells for destruction, S-60 is enough for 2-3

Yes, therefore, for the 57 mm, a rate of fire is 2-3 times lower. But not 8 times.

[Boris Chernikov]

here the question is different .. why the high rate of fire? is there a standard projectile consumption for a typical target, shooting in any case will be carried out in short bursts of a maximum of 4 shells,

[Tcheluskin]

Suppose you need to shoot down several unguided shells of the MLRS Grad type, fired with an interval of 1 s. Their speed is ~ 600 m / s. Anti-aircraft complex single-channel. Let the 1st Grad shell be downed at a range of 3.5 km. If we spend 1-3 shells on 4 target, fired at a rate of 2 shells / s, plus time to capture the next target, then the 2nd will have time to fly to us by ~ 2 km, and we simply won’t be able to shoot the 4th. (This is provided that we do not wait for confirmation of the defeat of the 1st target in order to switch to the 2nd, and in this case it is worth increasing the consumption of shells on the target for reliability.)

[Boris Chernikov]

True, it is not intended for shooting MLRS missiles) No need to invent tasks for yourself

[Tcheluskin]

It is very bad if the given "Deviation-Air Defense" complex is "not intended" for such purposes. MLRS missiles are a typical threat, large enough and not some supernaturally difficult to shoot down. A newly designed short-range air defense complex must be able to shoot down such targets. Moreover, just the artillery complex is obliged; shooting them down with rockets is expensive and the ammunition will quickly be used up.

[Boris Chernikov]

to reflect these missiles, he needs to have a radar that he doesn’t have .. A melee complex should provide protection from UAVs and enemy helicopters

[EvilLion]

Equipment for controlled detonation does not fit into 30 mm, it is too small.

[Evil Booth]

originally made a pine + 40mm LONG TIME and what kind of shell is it from which CIA downloaded? where are the proofs billy?

[sh3roman]

Why not 37 mm ???? In due time there was experience. Yenisei, competitor of shilka

[awdrgy]

Then it is clear In fact, this is a globally revised zsu-57-2 By the way, is it possible to use such ammunition on the "old woman"?

[sivuch]

And who do they have, i.e. S-60 and ZSU-57-2 left? With CAS, I’m sure that they won’t bother. Yes, him, NJA, not yet. Remote blasting - m. ,

[venik]

Quote: awdrgy

Then it is clear In fact, this is a globally revised zsu-57-2 By the way, is it possible to use such ammunition on the "old woman"?

========
Standard "high-explosive fragmentation" and "armor-piercing" - fitlike family! At least - they said so!
Moreover, the production technology and machinery - ALLOW!
Well, the shells of "remote detonation" are the same OFS, but with a special fuse!

[Boris Chernikov]

shells will do new in any case)

[Evil Booth]

and look to think is not fate? here put a new one in zsu57-2 look) in terms of carrier tank with a tank turret

[Boa kaa]

Quote: vvvjak

to defeat the UAV.

The main task of "Derivation" will most likely be the fight against NATO attack helicopters. And above all with the German Tigers and the Amsky Super Cobras, Apaches ... The composite armor of the military unit became too tough for the 30-mm AU. But from a 57 mm projectile - "do not hide anywhere, do not hide"!
Therefore, "Derevatsiya", I believe, will be included in the battle formations of motorized rifle regiments as a means of air defense of the battlefield. Well, it will work for lightly armored targets - just on the way! And he picks out pillboxes with bunkers - the power of a 57 mm projectile should be enough for this.
About UAVs - said above, I will not repeat myself.

[EvilLion]

Even the Ka-50 held about 20 mm. No helicopters capable of tanking a 30 mm shell, and it was brought into force by a much greater destructive effect compared to 23 mm (you need 5 times less hits to destroy the target), does not exist in nature until the adamantium is synthesized.

[Evil Booth]

30 however you already answered before

[PROXOR]

Gradual yes. BMP2, BMD2, BMP3 (Bahcha), BMD4 (Bahcha).
Yes, and 30mm of ammunition will not be removed. We have all combat verties with 30mm guns.

[Grits]

Quote: PROXOR

Gradual yes. BMP2, BMD2, BMP3 (Bahcha), BMD4 (Bahcha).
Yes, and 30mm of ammunition will not be removed. We have all combat verties with 30mm guns.

I don’t understand the desire to erect a 57 mm all over the vehicle. Starting from the Tiger. There is a limit to everything and logical rationality. Well, tell me why the armored car 57 or even 30 mm.? After all, for this there are 23mm guns, there are 14 mm machine guns. After all, this all affects weight, ammunition, and, accordingly, all other performance characteristics.
Simple logic suggests that the heavier and more powerful a vehicle, the more tasks it has to destroy armored vehicles and actions at the forefront, the greater the caliber. And you can put a machine gun on a pickup truck - it will be better to run.

[PROXOR]

Well, if possible, then why not. Syrian experience has shown the need for equipment that will smoke bearded because of the concrete walls of houses. The high-explosive action from 30 mm shells of the automatic cannon does not go in any comparison with the same from 57 mm. Yes, and JIHAD MOBILE (those who are booked with a suicide bomber) 57mm gun stop much more guaranteed than 30mm.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: PROXOR

Syrian experience has shown the need for equipment that will smoke bearded because of the concrete walls of houses.

And why do we have to defend the 57-mm for this if the standard armament of the MCO - the 100-mm serial BMP-3 cannon copes with this task?

[prodi]

you are absolutely right: the only advantage of 57mm is the station wagon for any trifle pot-bellied, ground and air

[Evil Booth]

Quote: prodi

only advantage

and the men didn’t know. IRL the air range of the subject for more than helicopter-based ATGMs, especially if you do not sculpt the humpback about the spherical range in vacuum when the helicopter approaches the previously known stationary target blah blah blah while the gun will fly many times longer than the ZSU projectile same range. In addition, the subject is universal. and its adlsnost is not inferior to rocket from air defense.

[prodi]

I’m not a shooter player and didn’t understand you well: but I wanted to say that 30mm, 57mm without a radar is practically useless even against low-speed air targets, which are becoming more and more important not even helicopters, but drones

[Evil Booth]

But you are well understood, you know about the subject a little less than nothing! and indeed it’s not the topic, such generals are building all kinds of AUGs and other necessary things)) and purely out of courtesy to the casual spectator, the range of the subject in the air is exactly greater than the range of ATGMs especially those that do not cost a megaton of dead raccoons. and the flying time at a real battle distance of her shell is several times less than that of a peter. however, the subject himself dazzles himself perfectly with his own exhaust shot, which is evident from a vidos even in the wind. By the way, what did you understand there? that they are pointing her through the trunk? mdyayayaya

[PROXOR]

100mm will not give such a fire weight as a 57mm gun. Again ammunition to 100mm ammunition to 30mm. And then ammunition for a single 57mm. 100mm ATGMs are no longer relevant against well-armored targets. There are better ATGM chrysanthemums.

[Cottodraton]

Muzzle velocity 100mm?

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Alexey RA

And why do we have to defend the 57-mm for this if the standard armament of the MCO - the 100-mm serial BMP-3 cannon copes with this task?

And then that it is stylish, fashionable, youth, import-substituting, sawn.

[Rzzz]

30 mm for a jihadmobile, even hung with samovar armor - more than enough. She has more shells, and the rate of fire is more fun.

[prodi]

it’s even more logical to put instead of an incomprehensible 100mm caliber - standard 122 (125), I don’t know what they have more, and instead of 30mm - KPTV, which is more than enough if there is no radar and full-time ability to shoot at air targets

[Alexey RA]

Quote: prodi

it’s even more logical to put instead of an incomprehensible 100mm caliber - typical 122 (125)

So the 100 mm is just the standard caliber of the ground forces, already since 1944.
And the 122 mm and 125 mm are, of course, good ... but what will we sacrifice - the BC or the landing? Do not forget that in the BMP another 10 people need to fit.

[prodi]

sacrifice the landing. An amphibious assault next to normal heavy ground troops is not even nonsense, it is (...!) BMP-3 - just like a light amphibious tank in the reserve reserve, in case of crossing water obstacles and creating a bridgehead

[aws4]

in short make on the octopus also add KPVT yes you are a genius

[aws4]

oooooh this is nonsense)))))))))))))))))))

[Boris Chernikov]

and who says that they are going to put on a tiger? we are talking about the defeat of Eurotiger helicopters

[figwam]

Quote: antivirus

leaving SV from 30 mm to 57 ??

Today, 30 mm may not be enough to defeat armored vehicles

[venik]

Quote: antivirus

leaving SV from 30 mm to 57 ??
this is a spoon again, small, in the military-industrial complex wallet.
the country will pull such a transition?

========
Why immediately "transition" ?? Nobody is going to give up 30 mm yet!
Will the country pull? Why "pull" there? 57-mm is a long-mastered ammunition (including for the S-68 cannon, the modification of which "Derivation" is), so there is no need to "fence the garden" here ... But new ammunition (with remote detonation on the trajectory) have already been developed (and this much cheaperthan MANPADS) .....
Well, we are not talking about guided (adjustable) projectiles yet, but I think it will also be a cheaper option compared to the Igla or Verba missiles .....

[Alexey RA]

Quote: venik

57-mm is a long-mastered ammunition (including for the S-68 cannon, the modification of which "Derivation" is), so there is no need to "fence the garden" here ...

After delivery to the S-57 and ZSU-60-57 depots, the 2-mm ammunition remained only in the fleet. And then, on a limited scale - because after the AK-725 the Navy categorically refuses to take any 57-mm guns, preferring a slightly heavier, but much more powerful AK-176.
Actually, all this wateryaga with a 57-mm gun has been going on since the late 60s, when the fleet first abandoned the then new shipborne A-220 development of the Petrel. Then "Petrel" upgraded it - and the fleet abandoned it a second time. And along with him and the FSB. Then "Petrel" decided to shove a 57-mm gun with a forty-year history to the army team, creating its land version.

[venik]

Quote: Alexey RA

After delivery to the S-57 and ZSU-60-57 depots, the 2-mm ammunition remained only in the fleet. And then, on a limited scale - because after the AK-725 the Navy categorically refuses

=======
In warehouses, it may be in "limited quantities" ......
But here Technology, production capacity и documentation - then REMAINED !!!!!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: venik

But here are the technologies, production facilities and documentation - that REMAINED !!!!!

Well, yes, they stayed - for the machines of the 60s, for the materials of the 60s and for the cooperation of the 60s.

[antivirus]

the deeper you are, the closer you are to the essence. from squabbles like "it's good that you did at least something new" and "to tear off a piece of the pie like an oil industry for your old age"

!!!!!!!!!!!! that’s the role of personality in history - from 60 years !!!
otherwise everything "asked for cons"
I did not expect such a hit to the point-- pulled out the old development and offered
I in the first room too much bent about "transfer all equipment to 57" ..
if this is not (it would be expensive), then what was offered - ???? replacement shilki and tungus?
T90 karachYat 20 years old and have not been transplanted from the "old" and then also BMP (all numbers) with 57mm

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, right ... the Soviet concept of "a single projectile for all branches of the armed forces" did not justify itself ... Given the fact that the thickness of the BMP armor of a potential enemy is growing, the transition to 57 mm is optimal due to the rate of fire and the power of the projectile .... Those shells that have now been developed pierce about 80 mm at an angle of 60 degrees from 2 km ... in fact, any modern BMP, except for heavy ones based on tanks a la Israel, in principle, will not be able to oppose anything.

[Evil Booth]

Quote: Boris Chernikov

"a single shell for all types of troops" did not justify itself ..

and the men didn’t know. will there be proofs? about a single about the concept about unjustified

[Boris Chernikov]

GSh-30-2 uses:
OFZ-30, OFZT-30, BR-30, ME-30
2A42 uses:
3UBR6 and 3UOF8
AK-306 and AK-360 uses:
OF-84, OR-84

[Evil Booth]

contradict yourself))) then one is different.

[Boris Chernikov]

The difference between the Aviation, the Navy and the land needed autocannons with different rates of fire, which led to the creation of different shells, there is almost no difference between the "S-60 for BMP" and "S-60 for air defense" ... and there will be shells with dist. detonation, and here and there there will be armor-piercing shells ... The only difference is that the BMP version will have more armor-piercing and conventional grenades-off, while the air defense version will have more shells with distant detonation, very few armor-piercing and grenades, and there will be rockets

[Evil Booth]

missile launcher is expensive and inefficient at one time. a kind of twilight Swedish genius. like a perfect tank but really perfect shit ..

[Boris Chernikov]

1) Have you already announced the prices and test results? Well, how much does it cost?

[Evil Booth]

it doesn’t matter))) it is always more expensive than a rocket because it needs to work with heavy loads and still have no urls and so on neither fish nor meat. and by the way google prices that is, for analogues. quite close. they didn’t make a missile as a result of either missiles or shells on it. nothing. just a big yacht.

[Boris Chernikov]

those. Is a rocket cheaper than a missile? Do you know that the essence of a missile is to be cheaper than a rocket, since there is no engine and the initial impulse when firing? The bottom line is that if an ordinary shell flies along one path and it can be detonated along this path, then can a rocket launcher maneuver in a certain range? You are clearly not in the topic .. on Zumwalt did in fact a rocket to launch from the barrel .. it flew like a normal shell, then the engine turned on and the rocket flew on .. this increased the cost, there’s a different principle

[Evil Booth]

ha ha ha three times. and now give an example of a rocket projectile cheaper than a rocket. all for some reason use either or and never and then ito.

[Boris Chernikov]

"for some reason" .. and who is everyone? The idea of ​​using long-range guided projectiles is quite fresh, in fact it was used in artillery only by the Americans and everyone .. and then they screwed up .. the moment is that you are stupid and have no idea what happened created and what is proposed to be implemented ... would be honored or something

[Evil Booth]

Vasya did not find the proofs and he went on the attack all of you radii one Vasya ball))) what shells are there who used blablabla))) is fresh to her for 50 years in operation)))))))) in art if)))))) bgggg low-level troll

[Boris Chernikov]

hang out and this is .. less Alkonaftera see)

[Evil Booth]

Yes, we understood gentlemen decided to take a word))))))))))))) that a fighter is not in the trenches?

[Boris Chernikov]

I served my own, now in stock)

[knn54]

Perhaps I am wrong, but a 30 mm spark would be better.

[venik]

Quote: knn54

Perhaps I am wrong, but a 30 mm spark would be better.

========
No, not better! More precisely, for some tasks - it might be better ..... But for defeat modern armored vehicles (protected from 30-mm projectiles), and for the destruction of "turntables" and drones - and the range of damage and armor penetration (and therefore - and EFFICIENCY) - MUCH HIGHER !!!

[svp67]

Quote: antivirus

leaving SV from 30 mm to 57 ??

Why care? Why not 30 and 57?

[antivirus]

suddenly learned from a month ago - the beginning of speed, gunpowder, no armor ... and so on.
the Wehrmacht (from the culture of production and the theory of CHEMISTRY) was 1/3 better at 41g and didn’t pull the T34 against the T3 without a shell, EVEN WITH ANTI-MIRROR ARMOR.
A 30 mm projectile can be "pumped" up to the specified 57mm characteristic ???

[Boris Chernikov]

everything is possible, but the question arises of the price of shells ..

[Boris Chernikov]

and yes .. write more clearly

[SID]

If you are talking about economic potential, no problem. Argumentation in terms of "replacing the ammunition for the army from 30 mm to 57 mm is a terrible waste" .... all with video cameras, for example. Think, compare what's what ...

All this is inappropriate re-singing of old legends about replacing calibres in 7,62 with 5,45, or 5,45 with something else. But here SAA is completely different! Orders of magnitude other volumes both in pieces of trunks and in pieces of BZ.

In terms of technology ... - there are no tonal technologies that need to be developed from scratch or for which you need to build new enterprises, train new personnel.

And most importantly, the efficiency of 57-mm and 30-mm is an order of magnitude different. 57-mm is not "instead of 30-mm", this is a different class of combat unit. Range of application 57 mm on the battlefield extremely wide, especially if programmable "smart" projectiles are introduced. Here: 1) the heart of the infantry support (both in the field and - especially - in the city); 2) the fight against aviation and unmanned contamination; 3) fight against light and heavy BT; 4) plus to all this, the possibility of effective work from closed positions, where the seemingly quite powerful 57mm caliber for this can be compensated for by the rate of fire and the number of shots in the ammo. 30-mm is effective here only in the range 1) ... and half 3) ... The introduction of 30-mm "smart" projectiles into the BC is hopeless.

[sh3roman]

As usual, our way is senseless and merciless, we’ll start a new caliber, why no one really understands. In the forever overtaking west there are 40 mm artillery systems and ammunition, we have set our sights on 57, and why not remember our 37 mm analogue, 40 mm bofors, apparently 57 more dough whistle or 37 mm all poher, from the word at all.

[SID]

I think that the caliber was chosen not in the light of trying on Western systems and the desire to catch up and overtake, but because of the process of solving the urgent task of maintaining the effectiveness and combat readiness of the Russian Armed Forces in accordance with modern conditions of the combat potential of potential and expected opponents. I think the 57-mm caliber is the result of a long cumulation and a reasonable choice based on a weighing of objective conditions (including the availability of a ready backlog for S-60, the successful application of ZSU-57-2 in Syria).
If everyone had a goal of only loot and everything would be done for the sake of loot - as you seem to consider - then our civilization would run in loincloths along the tundra.

[sh3roman]

And what kind of backlog is there from 60 ????? And how many ammunition load this SPG shells with 57 mm ???? You represent this fool this shell

[SID]

sh3roman November 7, 2020 19:46
And what kind of backlog is there up to 60?

Backlog:
- scientific and technical, engineering and design (this may sound abstract, but in the case it is very - a significant groundwork);
- the practice of using and operating the artillery system - i.e. a clear idea of ​​what you can get from this caliber and this system and what it costs actually.
- groundwork for manufactured shells;
- industrial-technological backlog - i.e. for the production of artillery systems and shells, a lot is already ready, you don't need to start everything from scratch

sh3roman November 7, 2020 19:46
Can you imagine this fool this shell?

Yes. Twice as long and twice as thick as 30 x 165 mm;

sh3roman November 7, 2020 19:46
And how much ammunition ...?

80 - 200 shots, depending on the features of the installed module. BMP-2 - 500 rounds 30 mm. And 80 shots of 57 mm are enough, with the accuracy and power of the ammunition that 57x348 mm shells give. If it's hard to just imagine, take a look at the video - there you can clearly see the difference between 30 and 57 in accuracy and range:

30 mm:



57 mm:

[Boris Chernikov]

to make an analogue of Western technology? in fact you have to invest more and get the same result, but you can take a larger caliber and get superior results for less money

[Thrifty]

So much for the partially robotic complex, with a crewless turret and a weapon capable of fighting on equal terms not only with aviation, but also armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles of NATO countries, thanks to a 57mm caliber gun!

[lucul]

Yes, this "thresher" has a colossal export potential

Now imagine - if for it to develop a new shell with remote detonation. And if all BMPs are re-equipped with such guns, then they can create an insurmountable barrier for any unmanned swarm.
And the fact that the rate in the next wars will be on drones - this does not go to grandma .....

[sir.jonn]

Is derivation without remote detonation? And in the photo in the article there is some kind of stray with wires on the trunk.

[sivuch]

And who needs her without him? But the KASs, it seems, have not assimilated.

[Boris Chernikov]

will be, this will be the main ammunition .. a certain amount of armor-piercing, the bulk with distant detonation and several missile shells

[venik]

Quote: lucul

Now imagine - if for it to develop a new projectile with remote detonation

======
So it seems already developed !!!

[NEXUS]

Quote: awdrgy

Yes, this "thresher" has a colossal export potential - to put on a wheelbase and whole armies of Africa and Latin America can only be armed with it

We would first put it on our own. The cannon is notable and it is clear that when fired, the car does not wobble in all directions from recoil, but the module itself with KAZ, cameras, etc. is ahead, where the "mask" seems to be incomplete.
And if I'm not mistaken, this same gun will go on the T-15.

[maidan.izrailovich]

... on the wheelbase and entire armies of Africa and Latin America can only arm it .....

Dream barmaleya.
Barmaley and other fighters "for freedom" in the first place will capture them from the native armies.

[awdrgy]

And they, too, should be sold, let them be groaned among themselves (although of course this is somehow not in good conscience) but weapons are weapons, such goods Naturally in the export (cut) version

[venik]

Quote: maidan.izrailovich

Barmaley and other fighters "for freedom" in the first place will capture them from the native armies.

=======
They will be ..... Unless, of course, sooner - they themselves will not fall under fire! ..... And then you look - and "capture" it will be SOMEONE !!!

[Shelest2000]

But what is the "potential" of a purely artillery anti-aircraft gun in the age of missile technology and high speeds (rukalitso) Now is not the 40s or even the 50s. Even then, it was already difficult to hit a high-speed target.
But if you also install anti-aircraft missile modules on the sides of the tower, then yes, it will work fine.

[awdrgy]

Honestly, I assume that it will work to a greater extent on ground targets, i.e. where 30-40 mm is not enough and 90 -125 is redundant therefore I thought about exporting to Africa and South America. Well, how can I use air defense against helicopters (light attack aircraft) ) helicopters in service in those countries and the availability of new ammunition is a good PR move. As for our army, I do not have information about the need or its absence in use, as well as the capabilities of the air defense complex and the availability of finance for the production of the required number of vehicles and ammunition for them

[Grits]

Quote: Shelest2000

But what is the "potential" of a purely artillery anti-aircraft gun in the age of missile technology and high speeds (rukalitso) Now is not the 40s or even the 50s. Even then, it was already difficult to hit a high-speed target.

So that's the whole point. Now the emphasis is on UAVs, and in the future - on a swarm of such small devices. And it is extremely stupid to apply to them modern air defense systems, which we are used to applying to high-speed targets such as aircraft in the form of large missiles. This contraption was created to exclude the concept of "From a cannon to the sparrows", no matter how paradoxical it may sound.

[sh3roman]

Then it turns out zsu tunguska, which has been in service since 1980

[Evil Booth]

visually, it is guided by the OLS, while in a strong wind in a dense snow only with its exhaust shot that can be seen directly in the video, it blinds itself with a single shot for seconds, in the steppe or in deep loose snow (frost) in the fields in dry weather or deserts will blind itself in calm weather for 20 seconds.

[Aerodrome]

the machine is probably good, but the kapets looks so ugly. glimpse, so purely German during WWII.

[Flooding]

Quote: Aerodrome

the machine is probably good, but the kapets looks so ugly. glimpse, so purely German during WWII.

Visually, the BMP-3 chassis. There can be no complaints about the exterior.
And it’s not at all a fact that if it comes to the series, then on this chassis.
Preexisting from incomplete protection of the chassis and the angularity of the tower.
What is not critical at this stage.

[askort154]

Airfield ..... The machine is probably good, but the kapets looks like plain. glimpse, so purely German during WWII.

Apparently, this is a modest factory outfit in shorts and a T-shirt. And when they are thoroughly "rolled in", they will dress up in a jacket and tie.

[Ros 56]

Are you going to paint a picture from her? But seriously, imagine the horror of the last seconds of the barmaley when he sees her.

[novel66]

TOW in the hands of the barmaleya can cure fear

[Ros 56]

With him in his hands and will die.

[novel66]

but we can and vice versa, it’s better not to appear at the front line

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Aerodrome

kapets looks how ugly. glimpse, so purely German during WWII.

I also looked at first and also such a thought slipped through. But wait and see.

[Archivist Vasya]

I agree colleagues at 100! It will be possible to shoot it in historical films, will win back for the Germans.

[venik]

Quote: Aerodrome

the machine is probably good, but the kapets looks so ugly. glimpse, so purely German during WWII.

=====
Well, in general, the main thing is not "appearance"!!! The main thing is EFFICIENCY !!!
Well, there .... At least call it a "pot"! ......

[Archivist Vasya]

Well, there .... At least call it a "pot"! ......

- Do not put in the oven)))
But the view is really shabby some)

[Archivist Vasya]

In-in, I also thought so. Well, nothing, we’ll shoot in historical films! Wow someone to win back for German tanks))

[cost]

This one with the new module "Dagger" It's a pity the performance characteristics have not yet been posted on it.
In the previous topic, I posted the performance characteristics of the "Baikal" module on the 2C38 "Derivation" and "Boomerangs"

[Pavel57]

Rich (Dmitry), TTX from closed sources?

[cost]

From the Internet, of course
link: https: //army-news.ru/2019/03/boevoj-modul-bajkal-vozvrashhenie-57-mm-avtomaticheskogo-orudiya/

[Victor_B]

Hell Thresher to the next level!
The S-60 cannon, on the basis of which this one is made, is simply wonderful.
Well, and shells with remote detonation, I think, will certainly be.
Then the effectiveness of this installation will be overwhelming.

[The leader of the Redskins]

If the price is acceptable to saturate the units and subdivisions with a sufficient amount, then it can become that "magic wand" which is now being replaced by MBT. After all, it is often necessary to hit a separate firing point, inimitable 30 mm. And they pull T 72.

[cost]

Good afternoon, Nazarius
According to the comments of the general director of the enterprise-developer of the Central Research Institute "Petrel", G. Zakamennykh at the forum "Army 2018", this "thresher" famously mows drones

[Vladimir_2U]

People do not bother especially T-72, PTURAMi figachit.

[Ros 56]

The most interesting barrel after the shot practically remains in the same position, and the whole body practically did not move. You can see the integrity of this machine is very, very decent.

[Not served]

Something similar to the BT series tank.

[parkello]

it would be better if the tank chassis would put it and made with two trunks. one purely under armor-piercing shells, and the second can be of remote-controlled detonation of tanks with a shaft ... amphibiousness is not so important to her as doubled firepower and good, tank armor. but it is so ... thoughts out loud.

[Grits]

Quote: parkello

it would be better if the tank chassis would put it and made with two trunks. one purely under armor-piercing shells, and the second can be of remote detonation

Is "Terminator" not enough for you?

[NEXUS]

Quote: Gritsa

Is "Terminator" not enough for you?

Speaking of Terminator 3, I don’t hear a damn, but there’s a bigger base and there should be more rich BC.

[parkello]

little of course .. have Teri 2 guns 30 mm. and with the new NATO armored personnel carriers they’re not so good, if they were to take it in the forehead ... otherwise you have to wait in the stern or on the side for it to turn. and here 57 mm will fly at least on the forehead at least on the forehead.

[Grits]

Quote: parkello

little of course .. have Teri 2 guns 30 mm. and with the new NATO armored personnel carriers they’re not very good if they’re taking it in the forehead ...

So for these purposes, he just has an ATGM

[parkello]

and if BC has dried up on birds, do you order to hand over the equipment or undermine yourself? not single birds ... I’m flying armored vehicles that would crumble like brickwork ..57 mm for this is quite a caliber ... and strictly with bops ... so that heavy armored vehicles could also be disabled for one or two .... but these are my Wishlist .. thats how I see the right options.

[Grits]

Quote: parkello

and if you have dried up bk on birds, do you order to hand over the equipment or undermine yourself? winked not by unified birds ... I’m flipping armored vehicles that would crumble like brickwork ..57 mm for this it’s quite a caliber ... and strictly with bops ... so that heavy armored vehicles could also be disabled for one or two ... .but these are my Wishlist .. thats how I see the right options.

So no one argues that an atomic bomb is much better than a high-explosive one for incapacitation. There are simply limits to everything. If you need to wet something serious, drag tanks, then artillery, then bombers. In this case, we can agree to the point that the battleships with its main calibers would be very good on the battlefield. Much better than 30 mm.

[Uncle Izya]

Do zis-2 with a similar caliber projectile will be more powerful?

[Graz]

why bother with the 2nd terminator?

[parkello]

then that time does not stand still. and while the terminators are in parts, they will have time to become a little outdated.

[garri-lin]

The terminator is out of date 10 years before the start of development. An intermediate solution in all respects. Effectively but not effective.

[Kunica]

Can ride, can shoot - what else do anti-aircraft gunners need About stability when fired: in my opinion they put it backwards into an obstacle precisely for this.

[Simple]

Quote: Marten

in my opinion they put her backwards into an obstacle for this.

Judging by the frames of the video - only when filming a queue.
Khatya, I think, the amplitude of the rocking of the hull can be leveled by the variable frequency of shots.

[faterdom]

In each brigade / regiment for a division of such devices. And like anti-aircraft guns, and in general ... the infantry will figure out how to use it, including during an assault in settlements., Or there, close the road tightly.
How "Shilka" in Afghanistan found work in bulk, and not as an anti-aircraft gun.

[aszzz888]

This is viewed special stability of the technique when firing, which may indicate a high accuracy of hitting targets.

So yes - when shots are "rooted to the spot"! It’s as if it shoots from small things!

[itvs]

all for the sake of this:

[Klingon]

Quote: lucul

Yes, this "thresher" has a colossal export potential

Now imagine - if for it to develop a new shell with remote detonation. And if all BMPs are re-equipped with such guns, then they can create an insurmountable barrier for any unmanned swarm.
And the fact that the rate in the next wars will be on drones - this does not go to grandma .....

and can the sub-caliber feathered arrows from tungsten be developed (or is it already?) to nightmare enemy vehicles, I just don’t know a cannon with selective tape power or cassette? on ZSU-57-2 there was a cluster loading, 5 pieces of shells per cartridge and two charging Petrovichs in a tower

[kitpit]

If you still include in the network with ACS is not a bad addition to various tasks

[Potato]

I hope she will be fitted with some kind of ground stop so that she doesn’t need to look in the field what to put in for shooting.

[Wolf]

The 57mm cannon is an excellent Swedish "Bofors", he showed himself perfectly in 1999. Station wagon and air and ground destroyed in full. Homework for all new gun makers in this caliber! If there is no sample vessel Serbi!

[Tamer]

57 mm with us showed excellent results on ground and air targets long before 1999.

[Wolf]

I agree, but we must put them in Armiu!

[Observer2014]

I personally liked the video! Calm. And at ease. That's it. And only these videos will be released from the super secret shackles. Where where you do not need to! Well done! It was interesting and informative to contemplate everything

[dimann27]

Brothers, stop garbage enough! Time to sleep! Soldier sleeping service is coming!

[Protos]

Quote: Shurik70

In the photo, when I glanced briefly, not having time to read the title of the article, I thought it was some kind of modification of the German "Tiger" of the Second World War.
The silhouette is a bit like

Not a tiger!
Late Pz.III Ausf.M with side screens and 50mm. Pak38

[Basarev]

Oh, to create a double-barreled tower, like ZSU-57-2.

[Izzy Gubinstein]

dreamed one-eyed
here the loot was squeezed by a rain of loot, our stones crumbled in sand at the telaviv

[nnz226]

Considering that the 57-mm ZiS-2 cannon in 1943 pierced the frontal armor of the Tigers and Panthers from a kilometer away, the new Bradleys, Pumas, etc., will feel uncomfortable when meeting the Derivation .. ..

[EvilLion]

EMNIP has a passport penetration of 110 mm from 1000 m, against the "tigers", taking into account the angles and spread, it is stronger than that of the VBR, it is ineffective, plus, even when breaking through the armor action is hardly strong, so against the "tiger" it is necessary either powerful three-inch, or at least 85 mm. Well, the sub-calibers are expensive, otherwise the Germans would have fought on one PAK-40, and not dragged 88 mm to the leading edge.

[Izzy Gubinstein]

Zis-2 remembe
yuden koput

[Archivist Vasya]

Something looked at the picture without reading the title of the title - it seemed that it was a German wrecked small-caliber tank from the Second World War)))

[pafegosoff]

Her initial velocity should be hypersonic. 57 mm is a terrible caliber. Remember ZIS-2?
"... simultaneously with the ZiS-2 Grabin was working on an even more powerful 57-mm anti-tank gun, indexed ZiS-1KV. The barrel length was 86 calibers (4,9 m),"

[Evil Booth]

Quote: Gritsa

I don’t understand at all

google what is a 5th grade bronik + shatterproof shields.

[Evil Booth]

Quote: prodi

BMP-3

is it better to walk with a horse-drawn howitzer? vabscheto this self-propelled guns of better accuracy of mobility of power dalsnity in armor from all sorts of troubles such as return fire or sabotage arrivals it’s the same house as a defense against weapons of mass destruction which are used .. this is savings))

[Evil Booth]

Quote: nnz226

uncomfortable when meeting with "Derivation" ....

Generally speaking, the angular projection of the MBT is 120-170 degrees, of which the average 35-45 is the frontal armor, the rest of the derivation sector is the craton. the forehead, by the way, when hitting the gun mask on otlchino will be jammed because metal and splinters and splashes tend to jam under fire because of this, on the fed, the gun mask was not changed from the 1st time. Here is the Abrams mask, here are the cheeks on the sides, and you see the snap 7) and if it bangs next to it? 57 mm? there will be a wedge. this is a little more than obvious to everyone who has worked with metal more than nothing. old MBT in the forehead of her, too, a fighter, but there are many thousands, in contrast to hundreds of new "cool" ones. in non-desert terrain, the probability of hitting the frontal armor of the hull and not the side is sorry 1 to 3)))

[Evil Booth]

Quote: Gritsa

This contraption created

so that when f16 drops 12 gliding bombs at once, they will all be shot down by shells a few kilometers from a huge area target, which doesn’t even double fire performance, and a couple of hundred shells is expensive, a couple of hundred derivative norms. any slow-moving type of UAB or KR subject knocks down in quantities as large as the BK torus .... where 1 missile is most expensive than the BK subject at least several times.

[Evil Booth]

Quote: sivuch

If serious

then most of the planes of all were shot down not by missiles but by 8/8/8 shiloks, the derivation bites much further, something like that. and by the way they attacked t62 mainly about what then Medvedev personally publicly wondered. he did not know as commander in chief that most of the tanks in the army of the operating T62 were in the Caucasus. the subject itself is more armored than a leopard1 and has a projectile against non-tanks more powerful than any abrams or others.

[EvilLion]

Such a car would not have been the price in the Second World War. While retaining all of her electronics. Why it is needed now is not very clear, to allocate the BMP-57 chassis for the sake of 3 mm is somehow bold. Is that to hang on it another 6-8 "cornet" and use it as a specialized anti-technical vehicle, since it will pierce any BMP with a cannon without problems. But I think that it would be better to make 76 mm from AZ for a hundred rounds, that is, to some extent a ship's barrel on the ground, but they have different powers and weight of the installation there. At least 76 mm, you can already make a normal land mine. Having reached dps of 1 shot per second, it would be very serious to fall asleep with shells.

[iouris]

How many readers of the article know the meaning of the word "derivation". Can you love derivation? I would like to know the name of the creative manager who came up with such a name for the system on which the crew must fight.

[SID]

Hello from Grabin !!! A genius climbs out from under the spud of time :)

In the comments there are remarks like: "why is she better than the Terminator." The fact that the insufficient effectiveness of the 30-mm caliber for the tasks of the Terminator is obvious.

- two trunks instead of one;
- auxiliary crutches in the form of ATGM and AG.
All this complicates and increases the cost of both production and operation.

57-mm (in the presence of "smart" projectiles) adequately covers (not saying that everywhere completely) by itself alone the tasks of the entire body kit of the Terminator.

Well, for comparison, stupidly 30-mm and 57-mm, just analyze two videos for accuracy and firing range ...
30 mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psUT3Bt5AVg
57 mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHkuzIAv9VE; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHpXFjDFimU

[Evil Booth]

Whether an article 25 years ago with the one that was just beginning to be produced. Brilliant !!!! Threat rate of fire decides for some purposes much wider than the caliber. kka the number of shots as well as the beginning of two guns to not overshot the gun and a lot of why and why. and the price of a shot, etc. and you, as billions of bots, grabbed a piece of the phrase and gave a detailed analysis)) something like that.

[SID]

rate of fire decides for some purposes much wider than caliber

What exactly does the rate of fire decide "wider than caliber" ...? Nonsense (sorry for the rude word).

Perhaps we are talking about the number of hits per unit time? If this is the case, then, for example, for 2 km or more, firing a burst from the BMP-2 will give fewer hits than the Derivation cannon.

What will the rapid-fire gouging of concrete from the bunker solve, if the 30-mm is not able to break through half a meter of the concrete wall. Not to mention the so-called. "armored action".

Well, if absolutely someone is baked with a rate of fire when working "for some targets" - stick a twin 12,7, if 7,62 is not enough. It will be much more economical than 2x30mm + 7,62 + ATGM + 2xAG

[Evil Booth]

Quote: Gritsa

I don’t understand the desire to erect a 57 mm all over the vehicle.

Congratulations, you are blaming us for being attributed to us.

[Evil Booth]

Quote: EvilLion

it would be very serious to fall asleep with shells

and an owl on the globe ... what exactly is the current and why?

[Evil Booth]

Quote: EvilLion

EMNIP

but they didn’t shoot with a closer one and had sub-calibers and in general there were those tigers and what could they do? the artillery battalion laid on a kilometer 500 shells of 122 mm as a white tiger as much as 25 88th and mortars and other tons of 2 more fires and a tiger fire there from a kilometer into the white light yes +/- 25 meters from the cop with brusetry ... it will come closer will receive full sides without breaking through, just a loophole such a click with a jab jammed the crew beat the scale of the armor with a turn of armor and pierced the radio and the brains of the radio operator and netok and TD .... and total 110 against thousands of different machines this will send through and the tigers are units)))))))))))) ))) not a hundred? why didn’t the same ferdinands break through with their armor 200?

[Armenian hegemon]

The 57 mm gun is automatic, inspired by the ZiS-2 and the British PT gun of a similar caliber, though in a new modification. The only question is why do you need to create a bicycle, there is a ZSU 57 twin gun that will make you change your mind about Wahhabit on a tachanka, he will see and think it would be better if I would pass the sheep at home, no, I was impatient for an adventure by 5 points. If simpler, it was possible to install these twin 57 mm guns on the T-90, and even to the detriment of the ammunition. He will have to bring the same freight transport to deliver shells to the store)). Even at a rate of fire of 70-80 rounds per minute, the shells quickly end quite quickly, from Shilka’s sad experience which had a rate of fire of 4 rounds per minute, and the ammunition was only 2K rounds!
Of course, the idea is good, there is common sense to arm with a more powerful caliber, but again, the supply problem will be big. But if the transition of 57 mm is complete, then you will have to increase the range of ammunition, the Germans fired the whole war from the beginning of 20 mm shells, then 37 mm, then 50 mm shells, 75 mm shells for mountain guns and field, 105 mm guns and howitzers, 150 mm also. It is unlikely that the Russian economy will draw on such an assortment, why repeat the mistakes of the Germans?

[Evil Booth]

Quote: SID

What exactly the rate of fire decides "wider than caliber".

if you are not clear then you are pushing water in a mortar. Threat rate decided even on Aberdeen at Pind's when they found that BMP1 in 8 out of 10 bends the heavy tank M60 due to the fact and rate of fire)))

[SID]

if you are not clear then you are pushing water in a mortar

on aberdeen at pind's

- where and when?

BMP1 in 8 out of 10 bends the heavy tank M60 due to the fact and rate of fire)))

- give me the link, very interesting.

PS
BMP-1 is armed with a short- and smooth-bore gun 73mm, the rate of fire of which God forbid 6-10 w / min and a machine gun 7,62. If she took the M-60 with anything, it’s an ATGM.

Talk nonsense.

[Evil Booth]

before even asserting it would be bad to understand what you are talking about))) and you google it and then show it or do you still go to school and crush everyone there with an intellect? well, deign to compare the combat rate of fire of m60 in 1-2 rounds per minute and obviously not 4-6 against a dozen of those with bmp1 against the background of high maneuverability against a tank firing from a standstill))) and penetrated by a grenade from a "cannon" bmp1 meters so from 700 which is about 40% of the theater of operations in western Europe. etc .. or do you need a smartphone and show where to poke your finger? so it is in the cinema in reality I bought a shovel and for work

[SID]

It seems to me that you deign to imagine at the expense of combat shots 1-2 per minute from the M-60 (extremely underestimated) and 10 !!! shots from the BMP-1 (extremely overstated). I think closer to reality: 4-5 for the M-60 and 5-6 for the BMP-1. Yes, the BMP-1 had an automatic loader, but then it was removed in order to diversify the ammo with phage-fragmentation, and you need to aim the gun, make corrections. For the actual combat rate of fire, see the application documentary below. Please note that the M-60 gives out a rate of fire and up to 10 per minute (two shots with an interval of 6 seconds), when shooting at a target, it fires aimed fire. In battle conditions, the agility of the gunner and the loader increases.

[Evil Booth]

Ha. firstly, the M60 actually shoots slower and from a standstill and it is large and the BMP is maneuverable and it is easier to bang with a shallow 3 times than 1 from a place. M60 tower is not a propeller on the side. and you give out technical for combat. and no amendments, bmp small m60 tower giant) moreover, it is in principle your speculations. tests think I'm right