Military Review

China explains why it is not enough to buy Motor Sich to create the latest aircraft engines

117

In China, they discussed the lag in the field of aircraft engine building. Let us remind you that on the eve a confirmation came from Kiev that more than 50% of Motor Sich shares were sold to Chinese companies (this statement was made by the head of Ukroboronprom Aivaras Abromavichyus). Against this background, the PRC notes that buying a Ukrainian company is great, but for creating modern aviation engines are not enough. And it explains why.


The Chinese portal Sohu came out with, we must pay tribute to, balanced material, which states that China does not have its own large technological base in the aircraft engine industry.

From the material:

There is no escape from this: the development of a highly efficient aerospace industry requires not only great human and material resources, but also a deep technical heritage. Industrialization in China began quite late, and this leaves its mark.

It is noted that the production of aircraft engines requires not only complex production lines, but also raw materials, comprehensive measures for the processing of metals to obtain a high-quality output product.

From the article:

The quality of the materials directly affects the performance of aircraft engines. Need to use rare earth metals.

Chinese experts agree that the Chinese authorities took the right step by entering Africa economically. We are talking about organizing the extraction of minerals that are necessary in aircraft and space engine building.

In particular, an example is given of the acquisition of cobalt mines in the Congo for $ 2,65 billion, and rare-earth metal mines in other African countries.

From the material:

About 16 thousand tons of cobalt are produced there annually, which is already bearing fruit on the development of China's aircraft industry.

The authors write that the purchase of the Ukrainian Motor Sich, as well as the receipt of the necessary raw materials in Africa, should become the basis for promising Chinese engine building. In particular, it was noted that the stake on these aspects will solve the problems with the engines of the fifth generation fighter J-20.

At the same time, it is noted that China now needs modern metal-working technologies, including technologies for creating high-temperature alloys, "which foreign countries do not want to share."
117 comments
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  1. Thrifty
    Thrifty 17 December 2019 07: 38
    +8
    At least once honestly, the Chinese media wrote that the lack of the necessary technologies is the main problem of China! I wonder who will sell them, or help create "their own" technology for ore processing, and getting at least relatively "pure" cobalt? The same cobalt 66, as far as I remember, is radioactive, and its reconciliation is dangerous and too expensive for avastroenie!
    1. WILL
      WILL 17 December 2019 07: 48
      +31
      Sohu is not the Chinese media, it is such an analogue of our Yandex Zen! Where any "ekperd" can emboss an article ... the audience’s moshab is really bigger. I don’t quite understand articles based on materials from this resource!
      Hedgehog understands that with the acquisition of Motor Sich - a leader in the Aircraft Engine, not to become. Yes and no at Motor Sich - no advanced developments! hi
      1. rufaqn
        rufaqn 17 December 2019 08: 00
        +1
        [quote] [/ quote] Well, maybe they are not advanced against the background of superleaders, but quite at the world level, take at least a "propfan" for the AN 70, although its use in civil aviation is in doubt, but for BTA it is quite a good option.
        1. Cook
          Cook 17 December 2019 09: 29
          +10
          Actually, the development and production of the SV-27 propfan for the D-27 is the Russian NPP Aerosila (Stupino; Moscow Region).
      2. hydrox
        hydrox 17 December 2019 08: 19
        +14
        For the manufacture of high-tech devices, 5 conditions are necessary: ​​a design school, production facilities, technological support with services, stable materials and components, and, most importantly, highly educated personnel who are fluent in ALL technological processes of designing and manufacturing these devices - and put these requirements into one a handful is available only to nations counted on the fingers of one hand!
        And China is a masterly copyist, but not a creator ... laughing
        1. cniza
          cniza 17 December 2019 08: 53
          +11
          You can buy everything except the mind and health ... yes
          1. knn54
            knn54 17 December 2019 09: 22
            +3
            Victor, good name, talent and "Can't buy me love".
            The Chinese really have no SCHOOL.
            And for the meager 250 million cu, they also wanted to buy modern technologies.
            Although the plant (which the current rulers do not need) is not dead. And some 15 million dollars could well have saved the enterprise. Plus "brains" and DESIRE.
            1. cniza
              cniza 17 December 2019 09: 25
              +1
              Everything not listed is derived from mind and health. yes And the Chinese, they will squeeze the maximum benefit out of themselves at the minimum cost and wonder why it still doesn’t work. lol
            2. NordUral
              NordUral 17 December 2019 09: 33
              +8
              The Chinese really have no SCHOOL. Not yet, do not be naively deceived. Recall the USSR.
              1. maidan.izrailovich
                maidan.izrailovich 17 December 2019 12: 08
                +7
                Recall the USSR.

                Recall.
                Yes, the industry began almost from scratch.
                But there was an engineering school. Do not forget that all of these Sikorsky, Zvarykins and many others come from the Russian Empire.
                1. NordUral
                  NordUral 17 December 2019 12: 47
                  0
                  maidan.izrailovich, yes there were schools, but they sailed across the ocean, although not completely. so I had to develop almost from scratch.
        2. Levius EN
          Levius EN 17 December 2019 08: 57
          +3
          This is not the only option. There is another layout: patience and investment. Everything else comes. And China has both. USSR in the 20th century went the same way
        3. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 08: 58
          +13
          hydrox (hydrox)
          For the manufacture of high-tech devices, 5 conditions are necessary: ​​a design school, production facilities, technological support with services, stable materials and components, and, most importantly, highly educated personnel who are fluent in ALL technological processes of designing and manufacturing these devices - and put these requirements into one a handful is available only to nations counted on the fingers of one hand!
          And China is a masterly copyist, but not the creators ... laughing
          All is correct. BUT, even with all of the above you, this is not a guarantee of creating an engine. The United States has much more developed aircraft engine manufacturing, but even they could not copy our RD-180. Everything rested on the material of the combustion chamber, it just melted from the extreme temperatures. Although the Americans received all the documentation. Here you have the school, here you have the rest.
          I do not know whether or not tales, but these two stories were told to me by the workers of these enterprises:
          1. In the 90s, the British wanted to build our Mi-26. We bought all the documentation and started doing it. Made. At our Rosvertol helicopter, during the "run-in" process, it must lift a 20-ton pig. The Angles had the propeller blades flying off the helicopter when they tried to take off. They claim to Rosvertol, so they say you sold us bullshit. Ours with them, according to the same technical maps, are assembling a helicopter. The helicopter takes off, picks up the pig, in general does everything it should. The British repeat the experiment at home ... The result is exactly the same, the blades fly off. In general, they suffered, but they did not succeed.
          2. German roofing felts BMW, roofing felts Mercedes ordered a batch of exhaust pipes at Belokalitvinsky Aluminum. Our party was made, all rank by rank, sent to the customer. They took samples from the metal and went nuts. They couldn't do that with their technology and equipment. It should be noted that under the USSR, BKMZ (Belokalitvinsky Metallurgical Plant) worked for the defense industry, more precisely for the aviation and space industries. That is, you yourself understand the level of technology. In general, the awesome Germans are breaking into the factory to find out how is that? Well, ours show them the process. It should be noted that this is again the 90s, collapse in everything and the plant practically does not work for the defense industry. In general, the Germans go nuts even more. On the equipment, which they received from the same Germans after the war, as reparations, the conventional "Aunt Glasha" casts from scrap ...! (not even from the primary source) metal, which in terms of quality, again, is not available to the Germans. In general, they did not break their heads there either, but just like the British, they did not achieve anything.
          Something like that! request
          So it is far from certain that the Chinese will succeed, with or without MotorSich.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 09: 29
            -5
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            but even they could not copy our RD-180.

            You shouldn't think so. This is a fairy tale in the style of "no analogues in the world". They can do everything, it's just more profitable for them to buy engines from us, paying us with virtual dollars, which they extract from the air. hi
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 09: 34
              +8
              Ingvar 72 (Igor)
              You shouldn't think so. This is a fairy tale in the style of "no analogues in the world". They can do everything, it's just more profitable for them to buy engines from us, paying us with virtual dollars, which they extract from the air. hi
              Excuse me, are you even a little bit familiar with the economy? Apparently not.
              The production of engines at home would give amers a few positive points. Firstly, these are technologies for further developments. Secondly, it’s cheaper to produce at home than to buy. Thirdly, you can squeeze a competitor in the market.
              So don't talk nonsense, it hurts, about "it's more profitable to buy from us." And with dollars out of thin air, everything is also not as simple as it seems to some naive here.
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 09: 44
                -12
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                Apparently no

                I have an economic "tower". wink So do not talk about flogging nonsense, and about the benefits of production at home.
                1. Alexander Suvorov
                  Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 09: 56
                  +6
                  Ingvar 72 (Igor)
                  I have an economic "tower".
                  It can be seen!
                  So do not talk about flogging nonsense, and about the benefits of production at home.
                  Lectures apparently often skipped in the nearest pub?
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 10: 28
                    -3
                    "When there are no reasons, they get personal" - this is about you. Sign of low intelligence: You haven't really said anything smart. "Do you think it is cheaper to produce anything at home?" Either the pendos fools, all production was taken to China, leaving only the scientific and technical component. They don't seem to know that it's cheaper at home. laughing
                    Now think about one thing - how often will you prepare a house with an unlimited subscription to a restaurant?
                    1. Alexander Suvorov
                      Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 10: 36
                      +4
                      Ingvar 72 (Igor)
                      "When there are no reasons, they get personal" - this is about you.
                      Just like about you. Your arguments, it's generally below the plinth, "economist" damn it.
                      A sign of little intelligence.
                      Again, on the thief, the hat is on.
                      That’s the pendos of the little fellow, all production was brought to China, leaving only the scientific and technical component. They don’t know what is cheaper at home. laughing
                      Yes, and they won a lot ?! And you do not know why Trump won? One of the slogans will return production to America back. No, did not hear?
                      Now think about one thing - how often will you prepare a house with an unlimited subscription to a restaurant?
                      And who paid for this subscription? Apparently, as an "economist", such an idea never even occurred to you?

                      I am straight from the local "academicians" ... laughing wassat tongue
                      1. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 14: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        Just like about you. Your arguments, it's generally below the plinth, "economist" damn it.

                        And what is wrong with them can be explained in more detail? Is there at least one sensible argument in favor of the fact that the Americans cannot develop an analogue of the RD-180?
                        By the fact that the American economy rests only on the issue of the dollar, it is not necessary to be an economist.
                      2. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 15: 36
                        +1
                        Ingvar 72 (Igor)
                        And what is wrong with them can be explained in more detail? Is there at least one sensible argument in favor of the fact that the Americans cannot develop an analogue of the RD-180?
                        There is. Given all the documentation for this engine, they could not repeat it!
                        And all your "arguments" that they don't need it are not worth a dime.
                      3. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 15: 51
                        -2
                        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                        There is

                        This is not an argument that they cannot. These are your speculations.
                      4. Alexander Suvorov
                        Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 16: 05
                        +2
                        Ingvar 72 (Igor)
                        This is not an argument that they cannot. These are your speculations.
                        Everything is clear with you. They say about such people, even piss him in the eye, all of God's dew. fool
                        I could throw you links to articles that specifically specify why the Americans could not create an analogue of the RD-180, having all the documentation, but this is also not an argument for you, is it? Google to help you! However, for you, a holy believer in the omnipotence of America, this is not an argument.
                        Calling your common sense is also useless, so our argument does not make sense. You believe in the omnipotence of amers, but I do not. On this we will disperse, for I am bored and not interested in discussing with you.

                        P.S. Do not tell anyone else about your "tower" in economics, they will laugh. I am telling you this as a person who has worked as an economist for 15 years, of which 8 years as a chief economist.
                      5. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 16: 39
                        -2
                        You say a lot, but the facts are still zero. And also understand for yourself, I am not a fan of pendos, and I do not consider them omnipotent. But to consider them armless is also not worth it.
                2. anykin
                  anykin 17 December 2019 10: 30
                  +7
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  I have an economic "tower".

                  I first read - economic "vyshyvanka"))
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 10: 43
                    +3
                    anykin (anykin)
                    I first read - economic "vyshyvanka"))
                    good Judging by his knowledge of the economy, they read it right!
                3. helmi8
                  helmi8 17 December 2019 10: 54
                  +10
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  I have an economic "tower". So it's not about whipping bullshit, and about the benefits of production at home.

                  In the 90s, "economists with a" tower "" under the leadership of Gaidar and Chubais ruined production in Russia and, accordingly, the entire economy ... And a higher education does not always give even average intelligence.
                  1. Alexander Suvorov
                    Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 11: 09
                    +7
                    helmi8 (Sergey)
                    In the 90s, "economists with a" tower "" under the leadership of Gaidar and Chubais ruined production in Russia and, accordingly, the entire economy ... And a higher education does not always give even average intelligence.
                    Judging by his comments, he is from the same cohort of "economists" as Chubais and Gaidar. Take everything out and cut it out, that's their slogan, and after that we have the economy that we have, that is, none.
                    For a particular corporation, it can and advantageously transfer production to a country with cheaper labor, cheaper energy, and closer to resources. But, firstly, China is no longer such a cheap labor. Secondly, not so cheap energy. Thirdly, with resources, too, not everything is so rosy. Now turnip is scratched. As a result, China is in the lead, and the United States purchases most of the goods in the same China. In the end, the gesheft receives the one in whose territory the production is located because taxes are also paid in this territory.
                    If an economist does not understand this, then the level of such a "specialist" with a "tower" in economics is immediately clear.
                    Honestly enraged amateurs!
                    1. hydrox
                      hydrox 17 December 2019 12: 41
                      +4
                      And why did you and the helicopter attack the poor Ingvar?
                      He is an ordinary economist, and it is likely that he graduated from the Higher School of Economics, but it’s not his fault that you both have national priorities in your brain, discussing economic issues, and he puts you the American point of view, while also not really trying to adhere to the canons.
                      Here's an example: the Americans pay us $ 180 million for ONE RD-30, but we have a healthy piece of the economy working for these supplies, there is domestic demand and consumption, and a slave is functioning. places, taxes are paid, a budget is formed. At the same time, we have at least $ 15-20 of added value.

                      Now look where the Americans take these same $ 30 million to pay us for this engine. They climb into the Syrian oil fields (which we looked after for their arrangement and production organization in the interests of the Syrians, so that we could than pay us for the arrangement of not only the Syrian oil industry, but also the whole life in Syria - and these are good incomes for us.
                      But the Yankees steal oil from the Syrians and dump it at half the price (stealing just $ 30 million per month (after which the Syrians have nothing to pay us)), and give this money to us, but at the same time REDUCING the oil prices (which also mean a lot to us) ...)
                      So figure out how Syrian money FOR US differs in comparison with American ... sad
                      1. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 17: 10
                        0
                        Quote: hydrox
                        Now look where the Americans get these same $ 30 million.

                        Exactly! They do not even borrow them in Syria; they borrow them from the Fed. Those. from the air.
                      2. hydrox
                        hydrox 17 December 2019 18: 38
                        +1
                        Please do not pull the phrase out of context: I'm talking about the directions of cash flows that cause losses for Russia, and you are trying to convince us that we do not need to count other people's money - such methods do not stimulate a dialogue with an opponent.
                        A similar situation develops on all talk shows with races ...
                      3. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 19: 29
                        0
                        Quote: hydrox
                        and you are trying to convince us that we do not need to count other people's money -

                        This is why you decided so ??? belay what my statement did you decide?
                        P.S. I really have the impression that I'm on a talk show - my words are interpreted as you like, but not in the way I said them.
                  2. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 17: 02
                    +1
                    Sergey is not a matter of specialty, but of people who ruined the country. An economist is the same specialty as, say, a helicopter pilot. I personally know good men from the Syzran helicopter, and one rubber product that works as a teacher in the same place. wink Glazyev is also an economist by profession, and is worthy of respect as a person.
                    The man above reproached me that I did not understand the economy, I replied that I had an e-tower, and received a bunch of labels about the quality of my education and mental abilities, and not a single sensible answer. I repeat on tempendos it is easier to buy our engines than riveting your own, but this does not mean that they are not able to make them. Their silicone valley is not like ours, and there are far from idiots working there.
                4. askort154
                  askort154 17 December 2019 12: 16
                  +8
                  Ingvar 72 .... I have an economic "tower". So it's not about whipping bullshit, and about the benefits of production at home.

                  Surely, a red diploma of the HSE of the Russian Federation of the sample of the 90s. Gaidar growth. The theory of Gaidar and his associates - why is it pushing to produce something in the age of transnational corporations. We have two pipes - with oil and gas. We will sell our richest resources, and with the proceeds we will buy the best goods, without spending money on means of production. For the past 3 decades, we have been getting out of the Gaidar economic pit. It’s good that the military-industrial complex was kept, due to the Soviet developments. Without its developments, in science and production, there will be no technical breakthrough.
                  And advanced technologies are not sold or copied. They are created purely for the interests of their state. Derivatives are sold. So do all developed countries. yes hi
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 17 December 2019 17: 07
                    +2
                    Quote: askort154
                    Why is it pushing to produce something in the age of transnational corporations?

                    You misunderstood me - I explained the point of view of the USA, which, in principle, is not particularly profitable to produce something at home, when it is easier for them to buy dollars for free. hi
                    1. armenk
                      armenk 17 December 2019 22: 47
                      +4
                      Ingvar, you don’t need to make excuses, everyone who wanted to hear you heard.
                      1. Ingvar 72
                        Ingvar 72 18 December 2019 07: 12
                        0
                        It’s just unpleasant when the site’s old-timers, like Ascort, misunderstand you. request
                5. iRoccka
                  iRoccka 29 February 2020 04: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  I have an economic "tower". wink So do not talk about flogging nonsense, and about the benefits of production at home.

                  Sir, you write so illiterate that you can come to the conclusion: you do not have any education, especially a higher education.
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 29 February 2020 10: 27
                    0
                    You decided to join the ranks of boorish upstarts, writing about the illiteracy of the opponent, while absolutely not understanding the essence?
          2. Michael_745
            Michael_745 17 December 2019 09: 47
            0
            German equipment was decommissioned in the late 80s
            They suffered for a long time with ours
            there was no stable quality
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 09: 54
              -2
              Michael_745 (Michael_745)
              German equipment was decommissioned in the late 80s
              They suffered for a long time with ours
              there was no stable quality
              For what I bought. But the story itself concerned the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s. This story was told to me by one of the casters; now I unfortunately do not remember the name now.
              Michael, do you have any relation to BKMZ (USAID)?
          3. hydrox
            hydrox 17 December 2019 09: 58
            0
            Post well, convincingly and in the subject.
            It's just that the comrades running on the tops did not want to think about it: in order to get into the "top five", it is not enough to have most of the items on the list, you need to OWN ALL the items.

            Complementing himself ::: an academic school and INVESTMENT are absolutely necessary.
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 17 December 2019 10: 09
              +1
              hydrox (hydrox)
              Post well, convincingly and in the subject.
              If you are to me, then thanks hi I try!
              Complementing himself ::: an academic school and INVESTMENT are absolutely necessary.
              I think that with Chinese tenacity, sooner or later they will receive all this. And perhaps they will create something outstanding. But as the practice of the USSR and the USA shows, even such giants did not always and not everywhere succeed.
              Here, after all, the talent of the inventor plays an unimportant role, and His Majesty the occasion (Madame Luck) also had a place to be. There are many factors, and only with a successful combination of all of them did masterpieces really turn out, what we have, what the amers have. That's just China to this day could not boast of this. But everything is changing, wait and see.
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 17 December 2019 17: 27
                0
                And what do you want?
                China is still only 50 years old, during such a time, schools can grow up only in the conditions in which Soviet Russia grew up, having having a VERY good backlog (and a higher education school!) From the Russian Empire.
                So China still has to run and run to schools! laughing
          4. bar
            bar 17 December 2019 12: 05
            -1
            So it is far from certain that the Chinese will succeed, with or without MotorSich.

            The Chinese will do much better with MotorSich than without it. And that's a fact.
        4. maxim947
          maxim947 17 December 2019 09: 02
          +5
          The Chinese are following a simple and understandable industrial development scheme with parallel state control. and do not drown in endless meetings, projects, and so forth. It's simple - take and work, not enough brains - buy and continue to work. He stole - shooting, and we continue to work. And there is no doubt that with this approach, they will succeed. This is not enough for us now.
        5. Piramidon
          Piramidon 17 December 2019 09: 32
          +4
          Quote: hydrox
          China is a masterly copyist, but not a creator ...

          Remember how the aircraft engine industry developed in the USSR. We started with the purchase of ready-made engines and licenses for their manufacture, and as a result, we have engines at a world level. Why do you think that the Chinese will not succeed?
          1. hydrox
            hydrox 17 December 2019 17: 28
            0
            Why doesn’t work?
            Of course, it will work, but not tomorrow and not in this five-year period.
            1. Piramidon
              Piramidon 17 December 2019 18: 02
              0
              Quote: hydrox
              Why doesn’t work?
              Of course, it will work, but not tomorrow and not in this five-year period.

              Well, then why should this nation be humiliated so much? You yourself spoke out -
              China is a masterly copyist, but not creators ...

              Many "creators" started with this.
              By the way, for your information, a lot has come to us from the Chinese - gunpowder, paper, a compass, rockets, ceramics, sericulture ... (you can’t list everything), and you are talking about them as some kind of lower race, not capable of building .
              1. hydrox
                hydrox 17 December 2019 18: 41
                0
                That's when they come to what we do not stop giggling with them - then we’ll talk
              2. hydrox
                hydrox 17 December 2019 18: 50
                -1
                It makes no sense to raise the ancient inventions of the Chinese on the shield, especially since technology has gone forward for millennia: it is indecent - the sand is already dry.
                Today, the Chinese nation is 50-60 years old, so no one asks them more than you can expect from them, and your statements about the lower race that you attribute to me just say that you are an unsuccessful clone of Zozuli - he’s his The lulle will still collect, with which I congratulate you ... laughing
                1. Piramidon
                  Piramidon 17 December 2019 19: 35
                  0
                  Quote: hydrox
                  That's when they come to what we do not stop giggling with them - then we’ll talk

                  In shipbuilding, in particular, apparently, only you giggle over them.
        6. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 17 December 2019 11: 20
          +1
          "To collect these requirements into one pile is available only to nations counted on the fingers of one hand!" ////
          ----
          There is a proverb: "Gods do not burn pots."
          Everything can be learned if desired, perseverance and financing.
          Great example: South Korea.
          40 years ago, they only knew how to build fishing trawlers.
          And today - shipbuilding power number 1 in the world.
          They: export howitzers to Europe.
          Europe is the birthplace of artillery. And the South Koreans caught up with her in one generation.
          1. Kurare
            Kurare 17 December 2019 11: 42
            +1
            Quote: voyaka uh
            There is a proverb: "Gods do not burn pots."
            Everything can be learned if desired, perseverance and financing.

            hi So yes, but still no. If you really could learn to all, if desired, perseverance and financing, then from every burned pot would be porcelain. But - this is not so.
            And about financing, just a very revealing example from history. In order to develop technologies for growing single-crystal turbine blades of aircraft engines in both the USA and the USSR, investments made a comparison of the lunar program.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 17 December 2019 11: 54
              +4
              In technologies, relatively recently (until the 90s) breakthroughs - supermaterials - were obtained by enumerating options. In parallel, several scientific groups in several laboratories (or research institutes) made numerous experiments. And gradually (or suddenly) they received new ultra-strong and ultra-heat-resistant material. Since the 90s, computer modeling of chemical and physical processes began. At first it was primitive, then it developed very much.
              And it began to replace entire teams of scientists and technologists. And reduce the years and years of experimental work.
              So to break ahead (or catch up) advanced countries has become easier and faster than two generations ago.
              1. Altona
                Altona 17 December 2019 12: 36
                +4
                Quote: voyaka uh
                Since the 90s, computer modeling of chemical and physical processes began. At first it was primitive, then it developed very much.
                And it began to replace entire teams of scientists and technologists. And reduce the years and years of experimental work.

                ----------------------
                I agree with this, Alexey, and gradually the engineering firms withdrew part of the work from the research institute, in the main routine of calculating complex structures and designing complex equipment. Roughly speaking, these things have become possible to monetize separately, quickly and immediately, and not as part of the final product.
              2. Kurare
                Kurare 17 December 2019 13: 06
                +1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                Since the 90s, computer modeling of chemical and physical processes began. At first it was primitive, then it developed very much.

                Firstly, I agree, computer modeling solves a lot of problems and allows to reduce development time at times.

                Now BUT or secondly. wink If it is not known how to program the model, i.e. the fundamental principles of modeling are unknown, then computer modeling will not help here at all. The basis of all the foundations is fundamental research and only then applied research.
                1. hydrox
                  hydrox 17 December 2019 17: 47
                  +1
                  He always said that no country without the Academy of Sciences will be able to develop industry science - he worked all his life at the SB RAS, therefore I know where all our military miracles using electronics and electronic equipment grow from.
          2. hydrox
            hydrox 17 December 2019 17: 40
            0
            That's when the UK will produce the most advanced means of attack together with the lines of the most advanced defense lines, then only it will be possible to talk about who is catching up with whom and who else needs to run and run.
            Look, today our men boast of a 203 mm self-propelled gun ... and the money was thrown into the trash, especially bearing in mind our defense strategy and the corresponding Doctrine (the counter-preemptive strike looks especially stunning - you can get it!).
            And about the howitzers ... Have you already seen the data on the resistance of their trunks and compared with ours or Yusovskys?
            And I did not see ... but I know well why the Chinese AK-47 is on the world market the new one is five times cheaper than the Soviet second-hand.
          3. cat Rusich
            cat Rusich 17 December 2019 21: 09
            -2
            Ukraine wassat - until 1991 USSR smile . In 1991, the Ukrainian SSR smile built a nuclear aircraft carrier (with the participation of the entire USSR angry ) - in 2019 Ukraine wassat buys boats for border guards in France bully or accepts used boats as a gift.
      3. orionvitt
        orionvitt 17 December 2019 09: 33
        +3
        Quote: ANIMAL
        acquisition of Motor Sich - a leader in the aircraft engine industry, does not become

        I completely agree. "Motor" technologies are stuck at the level of the 80s. True, the equipment was partially modernized, but not the technology in general, so the Soviet backlog remained. The Chinese, for their part, actively bought TV3-117, AI-20, AI-24 and AI-25. They also produced them at home, the same 20, developments of the 50s. True, the Chinese AI-20, although it flew, did not give the necessary parameters. This suggests that some things need to be developed and produced from scratch, and it is simply not possible to mess up. For example, the Chinese had a rule that if the AN-12 is equipped with Chinese engines, then at least two out of four should be Zaporozhye, just as they say "fire case". In the early 2000s, they were very interested in P95-300, the factory code "product 95" (cruise missiles of the X-55 family are equipped), they even managed to buy three pieces, the US State Department quickly caught on and forbade Boguslaev to sell such equipment to the Chinese. True, he was against the sale of the same products to Israel, he had nothing against it. lol Right now the Chinese will pick up on Motor Sich, which they have not yet managed to do. True, "Motor" has always produced engines for transport aircraft (except for the AI-222), and frankly I don’t know how this will help the Chinese in creating engines for fighters. The specificity is somewhat different.
        1. orionvitt
          orionvitt 17 December 2019 09: 53
          +4
          Supplement, all fuel units and equipment, as well as electronics, on Russian-made Motor Sich engines. An exception, MS-400, factory version of "product 95 series 3), which was sold to Israel. For it, instead of Tomsk fuel and Saratov electronic, they made analogs in Kharkov, at the FED plant.
          1. Timx
            Timx 18 December 2019 23: 04
            +1
            .. instead of Tomsk fuel ..
            Probably meant ОMoscow fuel (manufactured by OMKB) - it seems that they specialize in fuel automation for low-resource (and not only) engines (he himself worked with them, like with Saratov, however) wink
            1. orionvitt
              orionvitt 19 December 2019 00: 27
              +1
              Quote: TimX
              Probably, Omsk fuel (production of OMKB) was meant

              It is Omsk. Sorry typo. It’s just that distant relatives live in Tomsk, so it jumped off. During the Great Patriotic War, Zaporizhzhya Engine-Building Plant was evacuated precisely in Omsk. After the war, part of the enterprise moved back to Zaporozhye, and part remained in Omsk as a separate plant.
      4. Altona
        Altona 17 December 2019 10: 25
        +3
        Quote: ANIMAL
        Yes and no at Motor Sich - no advanced developments!

        --------------------------
        A manufacturing company cannot engage in deep development; for this, it needs an industry research institute, where there are specially trained people and a base for research. That is, you understand you need funds and personnel. So there’s no point in talking about what an industrial enterprise can do in terms of a deep perspective.
        1. orionvitt
          orionvitt 17 December 2019 11: 46
          0
          You forget that in conjunction with Motor Sich, the Ivchenko-Progress design bureau works, by the way, in the same territory. Most of the engines produced by "Motor" were designed there. True, KB, unlike Motor, has remained a state-owned enterprise and is currently part of the Ukroboronprom concern. And yet, in the 90s, at the plant itself, they organized their own design bureau, which was mainly engaged in the modernization of already manufactured products. But there are also their own developments, since there were specialists. But somehow not very much. Suffice it to recall the MC-450 low-power helicopter engine, which was marked to replace the MI-2 engines. We finished it for 20 years, but it seems to fly. They build their own helicopters, or remake old ones, with the same MS-450, called Mi-2SBM, but everything is in one-piece design, there is no talk about a series.
          1. Altona
            Altona 17 December 2019 12: 33
            +3
            Quote: orionvitt
            You forget that in conjunction with Motor Sich, the Ivchenko-Progress design bureau works, by the way, in the same territory. Most of the engines produced by "Motor" were designed there. True, KB, unlike Motor, has remained a state-owned enterprise and is currently part of the Ukroboronprom concern.

            ------------------------------
            I don’t forget that, but you immediately divided the branch institute and the industrial enterprise yourself in your commentary as with two different forms of ownership. Motor Sich itself has no research institute. So I don't forget anything. If only Motor Sich was bought, then what has the design bureau with, with which it is simply in cooperation? So in my previous thesis everything is correct, an industrial enterprise plus research institutes give birth to new products.
            1. orionvitt
              orionvitt 17 December 2019 20: 24
              0
              What are you carrying. And here is the form of ownership? In the memorable 90s, a lot of things have changed, including the form of ownership. But just as they worked in one bundle, design bureaus and the plant, they work. Some invent and construct, others produce. What is not clear here? What do you want to prove? What kind of industry research institute? Even if under the same Union, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of industrial research institutes working in the aircraft industry. Do not confuse the design bureau with research institutes, their tasks are completely different.
          2. Timx
            Timx 18 December 2019 23: 33
            +1
            A colleague is still right that PJSC Motor Sich and ZMKB Progress are different organizational structures, both in the form of ownership (one is a fully commercial joint-stock company, the other is a state-owned company), and in the nature of their activities: Motor Sich "serially produces motors under the license of ZMKB and pays royalties for the author's support of its products (this, in fact, is their main source of income). The Moscow Salute had the same licenses, and UMPO (Ufa) at one time, KMPO (Kazan) also gathered, but did not grow together.
      5. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 17 December 2019 18: 58
        +1
        So Motor never developed engines, he produced them. Developed by KB "Progress". But he is now, too, in a half-killed state. Bonuses were cut, on the nose of the cut. If you believe the rumors, out of 4 they are going to cut a thousand.
    2. hydrox
      hydrox 17 December 2019 08: 01
      +7
      Some strange information: in fact, cobalt obtained from natural sources is Monotone metal formed by the 59Co isotope :: other isotopes are isotopes ACTIVATIONobtained in special technological conditions using neutron sources.
      "You need to be more careful!" (from)
      1. Thrifty
        Thrifty 17 December 2019 08: 38
        -2
        Cobalt is also different, for various purposes it is difficult to clean it from impurities, and cobalt 66 has increased radioactivity!
        1. AU Ivanov.
          AU Ivanov. 17 December 2019 08: 54
          +3
          Cobalt 66 does not occur in nature. Its derivation from stable isotopes, that is hemorrhoids.
          1. Thrifty
            Thrifty 17 December 2019 08: 58
            -1
            So I'm writing about the fact that the Chinese cannot continue to help, probably to the detriment of themselves with technology! If they themselves do not know how, let them create technologies from scratch, and "feeding" a potential enemy with teznologies is like shooting at your feet with eyeballs.
        2. hydrox
          hydrox 17 December 2019 09: 35
          0
          No need to offtop, it's indecent ...
      2. venik
        venik 17 December 2019 09: 30
        +1
        Quote: hydrox
        in fact, cobalt obtained from natural sources is a MONOTISPIC metal formed by the 59Co isotope

        =======
        good Sorry! I didn't read up to your comment and got in "with my 5 kopecks"! hi
        1. hydrox
          hydrox 17 December 2019 17: 52
          +1
          Not deadly.
          I myself carry the info from this portal with buckets - no Jane is needed. lol
    3. Vol4ara
      Vol4ara 17 December 2019 09: 13
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      At least once honestly, the Chinese media wrote that the lack of the necessary technologies is the main problem of China! I wonder who will sell them, or help create "their own" technology for ore processing, and getting at least relatively "pure" cobalt? The same cobalt 66, as far as I remember, is radioactive, and its reconciliation is dangerous and too expensive for avastroenie!

      What does cobalt 66 have to do with it? Cobalt ore processing technology known to all
    4. venik
      venik 17 December 2019 09: 27
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      The same cobalt 66, as far as I remember, is radioactive, and reconciliation is dangerous and too expensive for avastroenie!

      ======
      Well, actually, as far as I remember - natural cobalt is monoisotopic element with a single stable isotope Co-59!
      The questions of enrichment are also like "the secret of Polichenelle" .... The question is different: in the problem of creating multicomponent alloys (including cobalt-containing ones) and their processing! With only one "blades" of turbines - the same hassle! As soon as they did not try to make them (cast, sintered from powder, even grown by directional crystallization) .... And all this is "know-how" !!!
    5. Errr
      Errr 17 December 2019 15: 55
      +1
      Quote: Thrifty
      I wonder who will sell them, or help create "their own" technology for ore processing, and getting at least relatively "pure" cobalt? The same cobalt 66, as far as I remember, is radioactive, and its reconciliation is dangerous and too expensive for avastroenie!
      Do not worry. Natural cobalt is a monoisotopic element with the only stable cobalt-59 isotope, i.e. 100% not radioactive.
  2. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 17 December 2019 07: 42
    +13
    Indeed, a sober assessment. I wrote in a previous article that MotorSich does not have some technologies, the most, the most ... I caught minuses !!! From connoisseurs. Well, what can I do if these technologies are one of my professional duties ... wink
    1. novel66
      novel66 17 December 2019 08: 28
      +4
      they would besides the motor Sich also buy Elektrostal
      1. venik
        venik 17 December 2019 19: 24
        0
        Quote: novel xnumx
        they would besides the motor Sich also buy Elektrostal

        ======
        Maybe they would have "bought" .... Well, who will sell it then ??
        1. novel66
          novel66 18 December 2019 07: 27
          +1
          spit it out, otherwise there are
    2. venik
      venik 17 December 2019 19: 23
      +2
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      I wrote in a previous article that MotorSich does not have some technologies, the most, the most ... I caught minuses !!!

      =======
      Well, now - "catch" ++ "" !!! drinks
  3. awdrgy
    awdrgy 17 December 2019 08: 04
    +2
    "Maybe you also have a key to the apartment where the money is?" - The Chinese are some kind of freeloaders, to buy and copy everything themselves? Where is creativity? where is the savvy? Hybridization of technology As if an indefatigable lawsuit intelligence collects from a huge amount of knowledge that falls to it another designer
    1. venik
      venik 17 December 2019 09: 47
      +1
      Quote: awdrgy
      The Chinese are some sort of freeloaders, buy up and copy everything yourself? Where is the creativity? where is savvy?

      ======
      And they have all their ingenuity goes to "steal, buy and copy" ... There is almost nothing left for the rest ... laughing wassat
      1. vadimtt
        vadimtt 17 December 2019 10: 06
        0
        Well, have fun. Here are just a large part of the scientific work with a high citation index on IT technologies replete with Chinese surnames. In other areas it will soon be the same.
        1. venik
          venik 17 December 2019 10: 13
          +2
          Quote: vadimtt
          Already, most of the scientific papers with a high citation index on IT technologies are full of Chinese surnames. In other areas it will soon be the same.

          ========
          That's when will - then we will talk!!
          PS Engine building is not IT! Here "one computer and good brains" - you can't do it!
        2. awdrgy
          awdrgy 17 December 2019 12: 49
          0
          And where are the guarantees that these works are not stolen, bought or developed by specialists who are temporarily invited to China? It is clear that the quantity sooner or later develops into quality, however, China has been pumped with technologies for a long time, Russia, the USA and many others for various reasons. talk about Chinese works (inventions) in a particular scientific field
  4. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 17 December 2019 08: 18
    +1
    China explains why it is not enough to buy Motor Sich to create the latest aircraft engines
    Yes, they bought fun and bought a tear. request Again, engines from Russia to buy a boom.
  5. Sergey39
    Sergey39 17 December 2019 08: 40
    +2
    "The authors write that the purchase of the Ukrainian Motor Sich, as well as the acquisition of the necessary raw materials in Africa, should become the basis for a promising Chinese engine building. In particular, it is noted that the stake on these aspects will solve the problems with the engines of the fifth generation fighter J- 20. "
    By the time these problems are resolved, the fighter is hopelessly out of date.
  6. U-58
    U-58 17 December 2019 08: 46
    +3
    Actually, China is following the South Korean scenario:
    - bathrobes and slippers
    - metallurgy, training
    - industrial espionage, curling irons, vacuum cleaners
    - bulk copying from simple to complex products, the accumulation of practical experience by young personnel
    - creation of own products from unsuccessful crafts to world analogues
    -creating samples worthy of the world market
    - ambitious plans for the future that can make China a trendsetter.
    It seems that China is moving to the last point.
    Space, electronics, the automotive industry and now - the aircraft industry.
    We would like their enthusiasm, hard work and ambition ..
    1. Slavs
      Slavs 17 December 2019 09: 08
      0
      Quote: U-58
      We would like their enthusiasm, hard work and ambition ..

      was deployed decisive struggle against negative phenomena in the party (the pursuit of profit, economic crimes, corruption, violations of party discipline and laws of the country) The leadership of the CCP regarded the growth of negative phenomena not only as a result of economical. transformations, but also as a consequence of the expansion of contacts between the PRC and capitalist. countries. Therefore,] advocating the widespread use of market principles in the economy, it at the same time headed for the struggle against bourgeois influence in the ideological. and cultural areas. The most dangerous was the "trend towards bourgeois liberalization" in the politic. sphere.

      https://bigenc.ru/world_history/text/3959431
      Maybe that's why they get it ....
      And we have ? And in our apartment there is gas ....
      1. U-58
        U-58 17 December 2019 09: 09
        +5
        And they have a gas pipeline. Here))) (
  7. Pavel57
    Pavel57 17 December 2019 09: 12
    +2
    The Chinese decided to try to get technology in the conditions of the crisis in Ukraine. This was the case in history, examples - the Japanese aircraft industry was set by the British, hundreds of Germans worked in Samara - they transmitted knowledge of the theater. So the Chinese can do it.
  8. Maks1995
    Maks1995 17 December 2019 09: 17
    +1
    No technology - it will be so.
    China confidently catches up with them all. For 40 years they laughed that there was nothing of their own, 20 years there is, but it’s bad, but now we are buying high-tech from them, and selling resources like a colony.
    And the 5th generation aircraft are already larger than ours, all that remains is to finish the engines ... about 5 years - that's all.
  9. rocket757
    rocket757 17 December 2019 09: 20
    +3
    China explains why it is not enough to buy Motor Sich to create the latest aircraft engines

    They said a hundred times that it’s just something to copy, complicated, problems above the roof!
    And we ourselves need to create such and the best, we need a mature design school, industrial and technological potential!
    China is on its way !!! Time, time, and the rest they are creating now!
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 17 December 2019 10: 27
      -1
      Quote: rocket757
      China is on its way !!! Time, time, and the rest they are creating now!
      The Chinese are running out only by time, but taking Motor Sich as a basis, they will quickly catch up and in 5 years will create an advanced engine structure.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 17 December 2019 10: 58
        0
        Quote: tihonmarine
        The Chinese are running out only by time, but taking Motor Sich as a basis, they will quickly catch up and in 5 years will create an advanced engine structure.

        It is hard to imagine that a factory that has been pulverized for many years can make such a big contribution to the Chinese engine industry ??? It is necessary to KNOW EXACTLY what and how much they added for themselves.
        Because it is believed that the plant, design personnel in difficult financial situations, has developed \ and something new ..... alas, nothing.
        However, I do not know for sure.
  10. Basarev
    Basarev 17 December 2019 09: 25
    -2
    Of course, this is the ancient Soviet junk. Probably, the Chinese leadership realized that it again flew into the loot, and, in order to justify itself in the eyes of ordinary Chinese, it invents fairy tales.
  11. Scud
    Scud 17 December 2019 09: 59
    0
    Hmm, we miscalculated malekho, it was necessary, as is customary in the European Ukraine, to become in a pose and demand 330 from everyone in China!
  12. mlad
    mlad 17 December 2019 10: 15
    +1
    Serious development of jet engines in the USSR began with the copying of captured German engines, and the biggest breakthrough began with the purchase of English engines, the famous MIG 15 flew on such engines, so they also started with copying, but developed the topic. The truth is still lagging behind the west.
  13. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 17 December 2019 10: 17
    0
    The authors write that the purchase of the Ukrainian Motor Sich, as well as the receipt of the necessary raw materials in Africa, should become the basis for promising Chinese engine building.
    If the Chinese cling to something, then they are like ticks, they cannot be pulled out with pliers.
  14. gridasov
    gridasov 17 December 2019 10: 20
    0
    Once again, I note that there are no limits to perfection. And therefore both theoretical and practical results speak of fundamentally new fundamental principles for the operation of engines operating in elastic atmospheres. In simple terms, propellers and propellers are not efficient ways of generating energy. In general, the use of materials working in high temperature zones is worked out not only by experiment, but by the correct formation of magnetic force interactions. As a conclusion, China can create technologies and engines of the next generation from scratch
  15. gridasov
    gridasov 17 December 2019 10: 28
    +1
    In general, it is worth saying that even elementary knowledge about the movement of moving flows along the upper edge of the wing or turbine blade has a very complex algorithmic process. Therefore, the crisis in the minds and decisions in changing the methods of analysis of complex and related interdisciplinary knowledge.
  16. ZVS
    ZVS 17 December 2019 13: 53
    +1
    All right! In addition to the purchases of the enterprise itself, we need brains, and this is more difficult, because brains have long leaked to Russia.
  17. Starper-xnumx
    Starper-xnumx 17 December 2019 18: 45
    -1
    Against this background, the PRC notes that buying a Ukrainian enterprise is wonderful, but this is not enough to create modern aircraft engines.

    It has long been known, they threw you svidomye .. laughing
    the development of a highly efficient aerospace industry requires not only great human and material resources, but also a deep technical heritage

    I agree with this, decades have been needed, and it is precisely the training of specialists and personnel policy ..
    And from the side it’s certainly easier to buy. To invite a specialist (to buy the technology completely), but then there will be very little return ..
    This has already been verified by the USSR-Russia in the 90s and current years.
  18. Victor March 47
    Victor March 47 17 December 2019 18: 46
    -1
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    hydrox (hydrox)
    For the manufacture of high-tech devices, 5 conditions are necessary: ​​a design school, production facilities, technological support with services, stable materials and components, and, most importantly, highly educated personnel who are fluent in ALL technological processes of designing and manufacturing these devices - and put these requirements into one a handful is available only to nations counted on the fingers of one hand!
    And China is a masterly copyist, but not the creators ... laughing
    All is correct. BUT, even with all of the above you, this is not a guarantee of creating an engine. The United States has much more developed aircraft engine manufacturing, but even they could not copy our RD-180. Everything rested on the material of the combustion chamber, it just melted from the extreme temperatures. Although the Americans received all the documentation. Here you have the school, here you have the rest.
    I do not know whether or not tales, but these two stories were told to me by the workers of these enterprises:
    1. In the 90s, the British wanted to build our Mi-26. We bought all the documentation and started doing it. Made. At our Rosvertol helicopter, during the "run-in" process, it must lift a 20-ton pig. The Angles had the propeller blades flying off the helicopter when they tried to take off. They claim to Rosvertol, so they say you sold us bullshit. Ours with them, according to the same technical maps, are assembling a helicopter. The helicopter takes off, picks up the pig, in general does everything it should. The British repeat the experiment at home ... The result is exactly the same, the blades fly off. In general, they suffered, but they did not succeed.
    2. German roofing felts BMW, roofing felts Mercedes ordered a batch of exhaust pipes at Belokalitvinsky Aluminum. Our party was made, all rank by rank, sent to the customer. They took samples from the metal and went nuts. They couldn't do that with their technology and equipment. It should be noted that under the USSR, BKMZ (Belokalitvinsky Metallurgical Plant) worked for the defense industry, more precisely for the aviation and space industries. That is, you yourself understand the level of technology. In general, the awesome Germans are breaking into the factory to find out how is that? Well, ours show them the process. It should be noted that this is again the 90s, collapse in everything and the plant practically does not work for the defense industry. In general, the Germans go nuts even more. On the equipment, which they received from the same Germans after the war, as reparations, the conventional "Aunt Glasha" casts from scrap ...! (not even from the primary source) metal, which in terms of quality, again, is not available to the Germans. In general, they did not break their heads there either, but just like the British, they did not achieve anything.
    Something like that! request
    So it is far from certain that the Chinese will succeed, with or without MotorSich.

    Your statements are from ignorance of the subject. Anyone can copy the drawings, having the finished product. But this is not enough. You need to have the same materials, the same equipment, the same technology, the same instruments and test benches. It is necessary to be able (I will give you a little, harmless work in the metric measurement system). A complete list of tests is needed. Make lots of patterns. So, what will all this create, having similar in itself. Maybe not quite the same, but it’s much cheaper to do everything at the most modern level and from now on not depend on anyone.
  19. Victor March 47
    Victor March 47 17 December 2019 19: 04
    -1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    In technologies, relatively recently (until the 90s) breakthroughs - supermaterials - were obtained by enumerating options. In parallel, several scientific groups in several laboratories (or research institutes) made numerous experiments. And gradually (or suddenly) they received new ultra-strong and ultra-heat-resistant material. Since the 90s, computer modeling of chemical and physical processes began. At first it was primitive, then it developed very much.
    And it began to replace entire teams of scientists and technologists. And reduce the years and years of experimental work.
    So to break ahead (or catch up) advanced countries has become easier and faster than two generations ago.

    It needs to be so stupid to put everything upside down. No computer simulation will do the hints. Not a single computer has made and will not make a discovery. Everything is calculated in advance by man. Methods of comparing the characteristics are compiled, in millions of options. It was metallurgists who studied the properties of metals over hundreds of years with all kinds of combinations. And computers only combine many of the properties already known in combinations. as amended by properties also known in advance. Simply, this method speeds up the process and spreads knowledge to many users, without giving each of them real knowledge of the reasons for this. It is like a game. The user does and changes something there, but he doesn’t understand a damn thing about it. The properties of everything are laid by the person in the program. And the results, too. But here's what happens in the options the computer will count faster.
    Further. To replace the whole team with a computer is to stop in development. I repeat, the computer does not make inventions.
    Further. Catching up with the advanced now becomes easier. And because any new discovery is becoming ever more knowledge-intensive, complex and expensive. It is like a skier going first. He spends a lot of extra energy. The following is easier. It is in the snow. And if you load the first with the task of choosing a path? It will become much more difficult for him. So, the example of IBM, which developed the first microprocessor kit, which spent a billion dollars, does not convince you? Followers did not spend such amounts.
  20. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 17 December 2019 19: 04
    -1
    what a funny penny ... laughing
  21. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 17 December 2019 19: 07
    -1
    Yes, they swam, everything was sold there long ago and was overgrown with moss. Pressure cooker and pan technologies remain. The last small things are drained for three spears. laughing
  22. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 17 December 2019 19: 14
    0
    Quote: Starper-777
    Against this background, the PRC notes that buying a Ukrainian enterprise is wonderful, but this is not enough to create modern aircraft engines.

    It has long been known, they threw you svidomye .. laughing
    the development of a highly efficient aerospace industry requires not only great human and material resources, but also a deep technical heritage

    I agree with this, decades have been needed, and it is precisely the training of specialists and personnel policy ..
    And from the side it’s certainly easier to buy. To invite a specialist (to buy the technology completely), but then there will be very little return ..
    This has already been verified by the USSR-Russia in the 90s and current years.

    Yes, what technologies are there ... all Soviet technologies have already faded by 2020, but they have no new ones. China has long received from them everything that could get interesting, even if the Byelorussian SSR even merged the X-55 strategic ballistic missiles to Iran and China in 2000, 20 years ago in the afternoon. There is Chinese interest in something else. Perhaps this is due to the desire of China to strengthen its market position, respectively. products - now all the escort contracts will be transferred to the PRC together with the office, and for China it's all almost free, the amounts are ridiculous.
  23. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 17 December 2019 19: 17
    0
    But Boguslaev, so he needs it. It’s good that I lived and saw what the work of his life was turning into. And he himself put paws to this.
  24. tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 18 December 2019 05: 36
    +2
    Chinese printer stalled !!! Not everything is so simple in the world of high technologies - you need to have a school and scientific potential! Money is not everything guys. judging by the Americans who cannot create their own engine. Learn from a "regional" power.
  25. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 18 December 2019 07: 25
    0
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Apparently no

    I have an economic "tower". wink So do not talk about flogging nonsense, and about the benefits of production at home.

    laughing This is our "economy" with such a "tower"
  26. 23424636
    23424636 18 December 2019 13: 32
    +1
    Motor Sich, then sold but missed one detail of its branch in the city of Snezhnoe (Donetsk Republic), which made titanium parts for the engines of this enterprise. I heard this branch fell into the hands of some completely incomprehensible comrades and they are already bankrupt. In order to clean the territory of "unnecessary." Rostek is apparently not interested in it.